Foster care [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

Details

04-23-2008, 03:19 AM

Carol25

04-23-2008, 04:05 AM

I taught in the inner city where many children were abused or neglected and I had at least one rape victim each year. They absolutley loved coming to school, and so did I! I was lucky enough to have "at risk" students" and had about 12-15 students for a half day (2 classes a day). We were like family. There was just so much love in that room and caring for others, congratulating each other for their accomplishments, it was just so much fun!

I was so amazed at how resilient they were. I knew of their backgrounds, whose mom or dad was in jail, whose mom (prostitute) was never home when they woke up each morning, but the 6 yr. old twins got themselves to school each day! There was never a shortage of hugs and great smiles.

These babies will be fine. Just get them away from their environment and let them feel real love. They will blossom and what a delight it will be!

spageddy

04-23-2008, 08:35 AM

We usually only hear about the rotten foster parents. There are lots more wonderful foster parents than there are rotten ones. (JMO)In any case, I think that the care of these particular children will be closely monitored. Again, JMO, but one would surmise that with all the media attention focused on this case, that the state would be very careful with how these children are cared for.

KatyDid

04-23-2008, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
I was married to a man who was brought up in an orphanage. The plus was that his siblings were there where he saw them fairly often (they were older and in another building). There is always a part missing in these kids. However, the alternative was not acceptable. His father died, and his mother was left very poor and had to work for low wages. Everyone one of those kids are fairly successful people. They are still close, have family reunions,....and attend the reunion of kids from "the home". Society does not cause these children to be in bad situations.....most of the time the parents cause it themselves. Put the blame for all the horrible situations the kids are in square where it belongs...on the back of people having children they will not, or are ill-equipped to care for.

I hear a lot of blame on the foster care system. Where are the solutions? If you blame, then you should at least suggest a solution.

The most heartbreaking story I have ever heard my ex tell was when he and another boy (both abt. 11 yrs old) ran away from the home and walked and hitchhiked over 30 miles to where his mother lived. She said "I cannot take care of you", and called the authorities. It was late in the evening, and those children were placed in the city jail in Waco, TX until someone could come and take them back to the orphanage the next day. I always harbored a secret hate for that woman just for that one incident, but kept it to myself. I would have lived in a tent to keep my children near me. Maybe she was wiser, because they all wound up getting an education and making something of themselves.....and that care and education was provided by the state of Texas. [/*]

:rose:

My parents were foster parents in Texas. My mother was a volunteer for the CPS. Some of the kids placed with them had come from homes where they were beaten, sexually abused, and essentially thrown away. When the kids first came to the home, they were scared and didn't understand why they were taken from their parents. Within days, they began to understand because they saw and felt love from my parents. They did not want to go back to the abusive environment from which they were taken.

Up until my parents died, many of these kids continued to stay in touch. My parents were the only parental love these kids ever received.

lotty

04-23-2008, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by spageddy
We usually only hear about the rotten foster parents. There are lots more wonderful foster parents than there are rotten ones. (JMO)In any case, I think that the care of these particular children will be closely monitored. Again, JMO, but one would surmise that with all the media attention focused on this case, that the state would be very careful with how these children are cared for. [/*]
Great post!
There are many foster parents out there doing an amazing job, silent, strong, loving and patient. There are more foster families than most people can imagine. The unsung heroes of our children. You don't hear about the "good ones" because they are doing their jobs, which aren't jobs, it's a lifestyle, a very caring one.

evalles

04-23-2008, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by stptheracket
Okay I have sat and read some of you post about the big bad foster care folks. I am a foster parent and a mother of two children adopted out of child protective services. CPS worked with the mother, bent over backwards to try to get her to understand that she had to Take care of her kids. People that loose their kids to CPS always want to make it sound like it was not their fault, cps was picking on them or the kid was some how at fault. I never had a child in my care that was not 100% safer with me than with their parent. So if you had a bad experience then I am sorry for you. But don't blame the people that step up and take care of the children that their own flesh and blood can not or will not protect. [/*]

Yeah, like that foster dad of Dominic James who was taken from his parents for smoking pot and given to John Dilley who beat him to death.

Or Rilya Wilson who had been missing from her foster care home for 15 months before state officials knew she was go
ne. She is now presumed dead.

Or a 3-year-old foster boy in Chicago that was found chained by the neck to his bedpost in a drug raid in January. The foster parents were charged with child endangerment.

This is just a few. So while I have no doubt there are wonderful foster families, this is all the proof I need to know that some foster parents are worse than the parents.

And , could social svcs have done more to prevent these brothers from being killed ?
http://www.pe.com/localnews/coronaarea/stories/PE_News_Local_R_ricky01.ed675f.html

I know there are bad parents as well as bad foster parents and bad social workers, they're called bad human beings.
While their jobs are difficult, there are times when they leave kids with parents when it's obvious that they shouldn't and at the same time, they'll remove a child because the house is dirty. What happens if a child removed from a dirty house goes to a bad foster parent ?
Jon Phillips and Sarah Berry were foster parents who starved a beautiful 7 year od boy to death.
I'm sure everyone remembers Marcus Fiesel and his wonderful foster parents.

With stories like this, how does a mother with a dirty house or who got in a fight with her husband feel when her kids are placed with someone chosen by the state ?

This is all the proof I need to know that the state doesn't always err on the side of the child.

evalles

04-23-2008, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
I have a little boy living here that is being raised as a grandson right along with my other grandsons. I fully appreciate what foster parents are doing. I just have a fear of ever allowing this child to be "in the system". I made a deal with his mother to give me custody. I do not receive any funds, nor claim him on my taxes. That was part of the deal. We do it because he is "one of us". It is working out fine. He spends time about once a month with his mother. You know who is lucky? We are! This kid is wonderful. [/*]

You are blessed. Congratulations.

Rainkiss

04-23-2008, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by evalles

*snipped for brevity*

This is all the proof I need to know that the state doesn't always err on the side of the child. [/*]

I certainly agree that some foster parents are bad news, there's ample evidence of that. What we DON'T have is CNN reporting the thousands (millions?) of positive foster family situations in the country. Nobody cares if things go smoothly, it's not news when a troubled kid gets himself turned around with a new family and graduates high school. We only see the tragic cases.

KatyDid

04-23-2008, 03:02 PM

I think the point was made that it is unfortunate the foster care stories we hear about are the ones that are bad. Something bad happens in every system ever created. I am glad to see the good stories posted here. I am sure they far out number the bad ones.

What is important is to measure the total efficacy of the system. If the good out ways the bad by a large margin, then there is an overall benefit.

We can hope the bad stories we hear about will bring a desired change to the facilities that erred in their judgment.

Details

04-23-2008, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by evalles
...This is all the proof I need to know that the state doesn't always err on the side of the child. [/*]OMG! You didn't know before this that the state was not perfect????

Wow.

Just wow...

I thought that would be something obvious. No human organization is perfect. Every last one will make some mistakes. You list all the mistakes and ignore all the successes, and they'll look horrible. List all the successes and ignore the mistakes and they'll look like gods.

Foster care is normally good, and saves huge numbers of children from horrible lives, exposes some of them for the first time to a healthy living environment. Once in awhile, a foster care home is bad. Once in awhile. Once in awhile a parent is bad. That's the normal situation in the world. Nothing is perfect. You can find mistakes made by Mother Theresa, the Pope, and Stephen Hawking; by Red Cross, Blood Banks - any person, any organization can and will make mistakes.

evalles

04-23-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Details
OMG! You didn't know before this that the state was not perfect????

Wow.

Just wow...

I thought that would be something obvious. No human organization is perfect. Every last one will make some mistakes. You list all the mistakes and ignore all the successes, and they'll look horrible. List all the successes and ignore the mistakes and they'll look like gods.

Foster care is normally good, and saves huge numbers of children from horrible lives, exposes some of them for the first time to a healthy living environment. Once in awhile, a foster care home is bad. Once in awhile. Once in awhile a parent is bad. That's the normal situation in the world. Nothing is perfect. You can find mistakes made by Mother Theresa, the Pope, and Stephen Hawking; by Red Cross, Blood Banks - any person, any organization can and will make mistakes. [/*]

OMG! You didn't know before this that the state was not perfect????
________________________________________________
No clue. If you can't trust your own government, who can you trust.

Details

04-23-2008, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by evalles
OMG! You didn't know before this that the state was not perfect????
________________________________________________
No clue. If you can't trust your own government, who can you trust. [/*]I knew, and I posted as such. Government makes mistakes. If that is a shock, if individual mistakes to you mean that we ignore the alternatives for these children - I'm sorry for you. Yes - they'll make mistakes. Anyone does. Look at any charity, the best intentioned, the best run in the world - and you'll find mistakes they've made. Look at the most amazingly good person in the world, and you can find a litany of bad things they've done (especially when you listen only to one side).

None of this changes the facts. The kids are in an abusive environment. CPS is removing them from this abusive environment and sending them to foster care homes. CPS uses all the care they can to be sure these homes are good. Some few slip through, sometimes CPS hires a bad employee or a few. But they are trying to protect the children, FLDS is trying to abuse the children. The difference is clear. As many testimonials show - none of which, BTW, make the news - there are plenty of good and great foster homes, doing an amazing job helping children. The few times they don't, it makes national news. But just in this small pool of people, we've got a bunch of stories to outweigh those of good outcomes.

evalles

04-23-2008, 04:12 PM

Details

04-23-2008, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by evalles
That's what sells newspapers [/*]Yep. But it's not statistically relevant. Just for the first date I found data, on Sept 30, 2001, there were 542,000 children in foster care. Half a million. The reports you find in the media are an incredibly small percentage of that - and are spread out over time. That's how good the foster care system is. Find me 5,000 bad foster home cases that happened in 2001, and you'll still be saying that 99% of all foster homes are good. Of course, the articles and quips you've posted, from over several years, are what - 10? 20? out of 542,000 in one year, who knows how many more in the rest of the years you use to sample articles, to find the rare abuse story.

Of course, some of those children go in and out - they go to foster care for a few days or months while their parents get straightened out. According to this, the number abused or neglected per year is nearly double:According to Child Maltreatment 2006, the most recent report of data from the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System (NCANDS), approximately 905,000 children were found to be victims of child abuse or neglect in calendar year 2006. Of this number, 64.1 percent suffered neglect, 16 percent were physically abused, 8.8 percent were sexually abused, 6.6 percent were emotionally or psychologically maltreated, and 2.2 percent were medically neglected. In addition, 15.1 percent of victims experienced "other" types of maltreatment such as "abandonment," "threats of harm to the child," and "congenital drug addiction."

http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=73144635117979&mkt=en-US&lang=en-US&w=e1c9d9d&FORM=CVRE2
http://faq.acf.hhs.gov/cgi-bin/acfrightnow.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=uKT6q7bi&p_lva=&p_faqid=68&p_created=1001610478&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTEzJ nBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9MyZwX2NhdF9 sdmwxPTEwJnBfY2F0X2x2bDI9MzAmcF9zb3J0X2J5PWRmbHQmc F9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=

Rainkiss

04-23-2008, 04:41 PM

I wonder how the statistics would compare between situations between children with natural parents and children with foster parents.

Details

04-23-2008, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
I wonder how the statistics would compare between situations between children with natural parents and children with foster parents. [/*]Well - there was the recent news that 1 in 50 infants is abused or neglected - and that report made it clear they were not talking about just first time parent mistakes, but true abuse and neglect - and just in the first year of life.

Rainkiss

04-23-2008, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Details
Well - there was the recent news that 1 in 50 infants is abused or neglected - and that report made it clear they were not talking about just first time parent mistakes, but true abuse and neglect - and just in the first year of life. [/*]

I'm speechless... I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, but I am. And that's reported cases, with no social worker keeping an eye on every case, like they (hypothetically) do with foster kids.

That's just not right.

evalles

04-23-2008, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

I'm speechless... I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, but I am. And that's reported cases, with no social worker keeping an eye on every case, like they (hypothetically) do with foster kids.

That's just not right. [/*]

I'd have to see the study.

This could be out of 50 abuse allegations, 1 is substantiated.

If not, what are they doing, going door to door asking people if they're abusing their infants ?

Details

04-23-2008, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Aame
So scary that so many become even more victimized in foster care. [/*]Some few are - but many more than that few STOP being victimized due to foster care. Half a million kids in foster care, and for nearly all of them, their time in foster care is when the abuse and neglect stops.

It's sad that some foster homes are bad, some CPS don't oversee enough, etc. - and it needs to be fixed. But we need to remember - half a million kids. Any report we see - that's one kid, one failure, out of half a million. If there are problems with 5000 kids in a year, then that's a 1% failure rate - for kids that have come almost entirely from abusive and neglectful homes - so for the other 99%, they have gone from bad to good, for 1%, they went from bad to worse.

We always have to work to improve - but to forget the success rate means we may throw the baby out with the bathwater, make a change to fix 1% that breaks the 99% case.

Details

04-23-2008, 05:41 PM

Here's the study:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/wireStory?id=4582335

evalles

04-23-2008, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Details
Here's the study:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/wireStory?id=4582335 [/*]

I'm at work - I can't check the numbers, 1 in 50 is 20 out of 1000 reported cases.68.5% were neglected or 13 out of 1000. Neglect ranges from the mother testing positive for drugs *4 leaving w/ ths baby to a mother being homeless. In 7 out of 1000 there was some kind of physical abuse.

Freebird

04-23-2008, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Yeah, like that foster dad of Dominic James who was taken from his parents for smoking pot and given to John Dilley who beat him to death.

Or Rilya Wilson who had been missing from her foster care home for 15 months before state officials knew she was go
ne. She is now presumed dead.

Or a 3-year-old foster boy in Chicago that was found chained by the neck to his bedpost in a drug raid in January. The foster parents were charged with child endangerment.

This is just a few. So while I have no doubt there are wonderful foster families, this is all the proof I need to know that some foster parents are worse than the parents.

And , could social svcs have done more to prevent these brothers from being killed ?
http://www.pe.com/localnews/coronaarea/stories/PE_News_Local_R_ricky01.ed675f.html

I know there are bad parents as well as bad foster parents and bad social workers, they're called bad human beings.
While their jobs are difficult, there are times when they leave kids with parents when it's obvious that they shouldn't and at the same time, they'll remove a child because the house is dirty. What happens if a child removed from a dirty house goes to a bad foster parent ?
Jon Phillips and Sarah Berry were foster parents who starved a beautiful 7 year od boy to death.
I'm sure everyone remembers Marcus Fiesel and his wonderful foster parents.

With stories like this, how does a mother with a dirty house or who got in a fight with her husband feel when her kids are placed with someone chosen by the state ?

This is all the proof I need to know that the state doesn't always err on the side of the child. [/*]

Or the couple that kept their foster kids locked in cages.The FLDS kids may have had to work,but at least they were not locked in cages like animals.

Freebird

04-23-2008, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

I certainly agree that some foster parents are bad news, there's ample evidence of that. What we DON'T have is CNN reporting the thousands (millions?) of positive foster family situations in the country. Nobody cares if things go smoothly, it's not news when a troubled kid gets himself turned around with a new family and graduates high school. We only see the tragic cases. [/*]

And what's the alternative? Sweep foster care abuse under the rug when it happens? Seems like some here want to do that.Why should alleged abuse in FLDS get more attention then child abuse anywhere else? I think foster care abuse is more serious since kids are put in foster care for their protection.

dsmith

04-23-2008, 07:21 PM

Is it a thought or theory that foster care is bad for children, or is it that some who take the job to be able to place children in foster care are bad. You do get burned out, but some stay for the pay check and insurance. It is a very hard job trying to place children when they should be able to stay with their own family. But under no no circumstance should you leave a child where there is abuse of any kind. So if you have a few that are bad should that rule out the ones that are good and doing there job? I think after this raid in TX that the whole US is watching and everyone will be working to their best ability to do what is right for the children. I will have hope for the children.

evalles

04-23-2008, 08:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dsmith
Is it a thought or theory that foster care is bad for children, or is it that some who take the job to be able to place children in foster care are bad. You do get burned out, but some stay for the pay check and insurance. It is a very hard job trying to place children when they should be able to stay with their own family. But under no no circumstance should you leave a child where there is abuse of any kind. So if you have a few that are bad should that rule out the ones that are good and doing there job? I think after this raid in TX that the whole US is watching and everyone will be working to their best ability to do what is right for the children. I will have hope for the children. [/*][/QU

I agree that with all the publicity, they're going to be careful with these children right now.
What happens when they're forgotten ?

evalles

04-23-2008, 08:22 PM

Carol25

04-23-2008, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Freebird

Or the couple that kept their foster kids locked in cages.The FLDS kids may have had to work,but at least they were not locked in cages like animals. [/*]

Remember those women who have been interviewed? How robotic they were? That doesn't happen overnight. This is what happened to them and to the children now...

FROM THE INSIDE OUT

http://home.mchsi.com/~ftio/mc-trauma-bonding.htm

Never heard about cages. But we've heard about being locked in closets for very long periods of time and the little ones put underwater faucets until the stop crying...

Shells2

04-23-2008, 08:59 PM

I hate the bad rap foster parents get. Yes there are some bad ones, just like there are bad teachers, cops, judges etc.. There are always some bad apples in every profession.

Many many foster parents give up thier own lives to take care of kids who just need some love and safety - these foster parents make a difference in kids lives and they go on to have better lives because of these people, not in spite of them.

So enough with the "these kids are better with thier parents than in foster care" sentiments. I hardly think the millions of kids that foster care has helped is as newsworthy as the horror stories that make it to the 11:00oclock segment..

These kids were in danger. This lifestyle is not healthy and nobody deserves to be raised like that. They deserve a chance and thank goodness Texas is fighting to make that happen!

evalles

04-23-2008, 09:01 PM

I'm glad this board was started.

I want to share a few clips from an e-mail a friend of mine sent to a group we both belong to.
__________________________________________________ __
We'd better start being as eager to do due diligence on FLDS as we are CPS. CPS is a dangerous cult. FLDS is a dangerous cult. We don't fight one cult by defending another.

I challenge each of us to understand the facts about FLDS before we continue this fight in its defense:

Polygamy: It is comfortable and satisfying for us to fight for the parents of FLDS as long as we continue to identify FLDS as a polygamous sect. All we have to say is, Hey, I don't believe in polygamy, but those kids are healthy and happy, and not abused, and the young women can leave anytime they want to, so we should let the sect practice their own religious beliefs however they see fit.

But FLDS does not practice polygamy. Not even close. Polygamy is plural marriage between consenting adults. That's it. Plural marriage between consenting adults. Continuing to refer to FLDS as a polygamous sect is like referring to a gang of drug dealers as a group of unlicensed pharmacists. Any of us interested in the actual truth of the matter will stop calling FLDS a polygamist sect. It is not. Indeed, there are practicing polygamists all over the world, but FLDS is not a group of polygamists.

I'll say it again: CPS is a dangerous cult. FLDS is a dangerous cult. And we don't fight one cult by defending another.

I'm not going to post my friend's name to protect her privacy.
She's a very smart woman. Her grandaughter was taken from her after she made an attorney at CPS mad. Despite all the excellent home studies and the fact that her grandaughter was thriving. Her case was moved from the office where she was given glowing reports for over two years by all the workers to an office in the same county that seemed terribly biased against her.
This little girl was four years old and even though she'd never spent so much as a day at this man's home, she was given to one of her drug addicted mother's ex-boyfriends so that she could be with 2 of her siblings. There were 10 children living with this man and his new wife and two of her older boys had been in trouble for molestation. But she made the wrong person mad. She tells me that there were some wonderful workers that did what they could, but they were removed from the case and it was given to someone that hadn't developed a bond with her and this little girl, that weren't willing to tear apart this family. The new workers were easier for this one bad agent for the court to manipulate. My friend had already petitioned to adopt her, and all the reports up to that point recommended her being allowed to adopt this little girl that she had lived for for over 2 years.
The ex-bfrnd of the childs mother was inconvenienced by the visitation between his two sons and their sister that the grandmother insisted take place and also petitioned for adoption. Her court date was before his, but the attorney for CPS moved the court date ahead of hers. She knew something was wrong when she dropped her off at pre-school by the way the staff was acting. She called CPS and the worker confirmed her fears. They told her they were on the way to pick the little girl up, but they were lost and wanted directions.They were actually parked a couple houses up, she doesn't know why, but thinks maybe they were trying to see if she'd try to pick her grndghter up 1st. She walked up to the car and asked if she could go with them to say goodbye. They allowed this and they followed her to the school. The little girl was obviously upset, so she explained that before her brothers had come to visit her and now she was going to stay with them and they were going to come visit grandma. There was a lot more, but basically she put her own hurts aside to comfort her grandchild who she never saw or was allowed to talk to again. After someone grove off w/ her life, the worker who she feels conspired against her to take this child away then says to her
" I've never been so proud of anybody in my life. That was beautiful. Can I hug you ?"
She looked at her through her tears and told her NO !!

KatyDid

04-23-2008, 09:11 PM

So is she saying none of those women are consenting adults, not even those that marry when they are into their 20's?

Carol25

04-23-2008, 09:28 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by evalles
I'm glad this board was started.

I want to share a few clips from an e-mail a friend of mine sent to a group we both belong to.
__________________________________________________ __
We'd better start being as eager to do due diligence on FLDS as we are CPS. CPS is a dangerous cult. FLDS is a dangerous cult. We don't fight one cult by defending another.

I challenge each of us to understand the facts about FLDS before we continue this fight in its defense:

Polygamy: It is comfortable and satisfying for us to fight for the parents of FLDS as long as we continue to identify FLDS as a polygamous sect. All we have to say is, Hey, I don't believe in polygamy, but those kids are healthy and happy, and not abused, and the young women can leave anytime they want to, so we should let the sect practice their own religious beliefs however they see fit.

But FLDS does not practice polygamy. Not even close. Polygamy is plural marriage between consenting adults. That's it. Plural marriage between consenting adults. Continuing to refer to FLDS as a polygamous sect is like referring to a gang of drug dealers as a group of unlicensed pharmacists. Any of us interested in the actual truth of the matter will stop calling FLDS a polygamist sect. It is not. Indeed, there are practicing polygamists all over the world, but FLDS is not a group of polygamists.

I'll say it again: CPS is a dangerous cult. QUOTE]

Evalles, your friend has a big problem. If she considers CPS a cult and the FLDS does not practice polygamy, I certainly question her account of the events of her experience with CPS.
You can't question one without questioning the other.

Carol25

04-23-2008, 09:33 PM

Details

04-23-2008, 09:42 PM

Scary, scary people. CPS is no cult, the FLDS obviously is. To be so willing as that person to overlook molested children is pretty scary. Seems some want to destroy a system with a high percentage success rate just because that rate is not 100%, while leaving kids in a system where the abuse rate is awfully close to 100%.

You don't ignore problems, even when most foster homes do a great job. But you don't ignore success either. You work on fixing the problems. Which is exactly what happens every time a problem crops up. But in most cases, the foster home is good. In most cases, CPS is acting appropriately. From every stat posted, every story, in a huge majority of the cases, this is true. Half a million kids in foster care, compared to a handful of abuse cases. The abuse cases need to be fixed, but you look at half a million kids with their parents, and I suspect you'll see more abuse.

Annie143

04-23-2008, 10:23 PM

I think a lot of people get into foster care for the money. I know of at least 3 foster families that did just that. Having said that, one family took disabled children and seemed to do a good job with them. The other two, I am not too certain about. Any abuse of a child is one case too many.

One family here in central Fla took in foster children and it came out that the male in the house was abusing the girls.

I think there is very much room for abuse and the reasons for fostering children is many times for financial reasons. But, I am sure and certain that there are good foster families and God Bless them, I sincerely mean that.

Yes, I remember the case with the children being locked in cages. Ohio, I think.

this is a very sad situation and there is no good solution.

evalles

04-23-2008, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Carol25
[QUOTE]Originally posted by evalles
I'm glad this board was started.

I want to share a few clips from an e-mail a friend of mine sent to a group we both belong to.
__________________________________________________ __
We'd better start being as eager to do due diligence on FLDS as we are CPS. CPS is a dangerous cult. FLDS is a dangerous cult. We don't fight one cult by defending another.

I challenge each of us to understand the facts about FLDS before we continue this fight in its defense:

Polygamy: It is comfortable and satisfying for us to fight for the parents of FLDS as long as we continue to identify FLDS as a polygamous sect. All we have to say is, Hey, I don't believe in polygamy, but those kids are healthy and happy, and not abused, and the young women can leave anytime they want to, so we should let the sect practice their own religious beliefs however they see fit.

But FLDS does not practice polygamy. Not even close. Polygamy is plural marriage between consenting adults. That's it. Plural marriage between consenting adults. Continuing to refer to FLDS as a polygamous sect is like referring to a gang of drug dealers as a group of unlicensed pharmacists. Any of us interested in the actual truth of the matter will stop calling FLDS a polygamist sect. It is not. Indeed, there are practicing polygamists all over the world, but FLDS is not a group of polygamists.

I'll say it again: CPS is a dangerous cult. QUOTE]

Evalles, your friend has a big problem. If she considers CPS a cult and the FLDS does not practice polygamy, I certainly question her account of the events of her experience with CPS.
You can't question one without questioning the other. [/*]

No, she's using it to get her point across, not in the typical sense of the word. She means they're worse than polygamists. Do you also want to question the fact that she thinks they're rapists and shouldn't be defended. She thinks that true polygamists have more than one wife,but that they're consenting adults not adults having sex with teenagers under the guise of religion.
She's telling everyone in the parent support group that they shouldn't support FLDS. So, if you doubt her comments, you should doubt that the FLDS are scum as far as she's concerned.
As for what happened to her w/ CPS, doubt it if you want, she lives 3 miles from me and I've seen all the documentation.
It's hard to believe because you can't imagine it happening. Neither could I a short year ago. I thought that anyone accused by the almighty child savers must be guilty, that they don't take children for no reason. The good ones don't, but they're not all good and they're in very powerful positions. My case only involved my 16 year old, my 6 & 7 year old were home the entire time,but this took its toll on our entire family. I live in a great neighborhood (my state rep and mayor live in my neighborhood)where I moved because it has awesome schools and is entirely kid oriented. Because of my incredibly big mouth, my neighbors/friends are all aware of what happened. A stay at home mom across the street was afraid to take her daughter to be tested for ADD because someone told her if she didn't agree to give her daughter ADD drugs they could charge her w/ medical neglect.
My daughter told me that the CPS worker told her aunt that she could let her spend the weekend with her boyfriend if she wanted. It was ok for her to work til midnight or 1AM while she was flunking all her classes.
This was not acceptable at my house.
She even discussed with my child, that I was causing her alot of trouble and they'd pulled her file 3 times. My state rep had something to do with this. I had to stand back while choices I felt were harmful to my child were made at every turn. Since her uncle has had several DWI's and is a persistent offender, I had to worry that he would get in an accident with my child. Since all their children do drugs (they sell and so does one of their sons) I was worried that my kid would become a drug addict.
This is what parents with children in foster care have to worry about all the time. Who has my child, are they taking care of them and are they safe ? Is the foster dad a perv ?
If the foster parent is ok, what about their family members or visitors to their home.
Yes I'm sure there are parents that could care less, and they'll probably be the ones to get their kids back.
Their criminal records can all be accessed by our county website. They were not allowed custody of the father's biological child and if wasn't against the rules, I'd post a link to the Tenn family court case(made case law because they awarded her to the grandparents and not the bio dad) in which he perjured himself on the stand, and tested positive for drugs during the course of the trial. The worker on the case has no children of her own and I'm a 37 year old mother of 3 with no crim record, no CPS history, a stable job, a nice home in a nice neighborhood and had purposely lived away from these family members for most of my adult life.
At this point, I consider it a learning experience. I actually trusted my govenment before this happened.

evalles

04-24-2008, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Shells2
I hate the bad rap foster parents get. Yes there are some bad ones, just like there are bad teachers, cops, judges etc.. There are always some bad apples in every profession.

Many many foster parents give up thier own lives to take care of kids who just need some love and safety - these foster parents make a difference in kids lives and they go on to have better lives because of these people, not in spite of them.

So enough with the "these kids are better with thier parents than in foster care" sentiments. I hardly think the millions of kids that foster care has helped is as newsworthy as the horror stories that make it to the 11:00oclock segment..

These kids were in danger. This lifestyle is not healthy and nobody deserves to be raised like that. They deserve a chance and thank goodness Texas is fighting to make that happen! [/*]

You're right, it's not as noteworthy. There are thousands of children that have been abused or killed in foster care.
They matter. Marcus Feisel matters, Rilya Wilson matters, so does Dominic James. His mom buiried her son, beaten to death by his foster father. He was removed because his mom and dad got in a fight with each other and smoked pot. Was he better off dead than with them. He was 2 years old and a grown man beat him to death. As she was looking down at his broken and bruised little dead body, do you think she was thinking about all the thousands of kids in wonderful foster homes. No, she was wondering how someone that was supposed to protect her child could hand him over to a monster.

evalles

04-24-2008, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Texanne
I was married to a man who was brought up in an orphanage. The plus was that his siblings were there where he saw them fairly often (they were older and in another building). There is always a part missing in these kids. However, the alternative was not acceptable. His father died, and his mother was left very poor and had to work for low wages. Everyone one of those kids are fairly successful people. They are still close, have family reunions,....and attend the reunion of kids from "the home". Society does not cause these children to be in bad situations.....most of the time the parents cause it themselves. Put the blame for all the horrible situations the kids are in square where it belongs...on the back of people having children they will not, or are ill-equipped to care for.

I hear a lot of blame on the foster care system. Where are the solutions? If you blame, then you should at least suggest a solution.

The most heartbreaking story I have ever heard my ex tell was when he and another boy (both abt. 11 yrs old) ran away from the home and walked and hitchhiked over 30 miles to where his mother lived. She said "I cannot take care of you", and called the authorities. It was late in the evening, and those children were placed in the city jail in Waco, TX until someone could come and take them back to the orphanage the next day. I always harbored a secret hate for that woman just for that one incident, but kept it to myself. I would have lived in a tent to keep my children near me. Maybe she was wiser, because they all wound up getting an education and making something of themselves.....and that care and education was provided by the state of Texas. [/*]

Or she was a !#!#!. I don't think kids should be taken because a family is poor.
If someone's lights are shut off, why doensn't the state pay the $80 light bill and work with the family instead of taking the kids.
If the parents aren't abusive, why not invest $$ in the family instead of foster care.
It would cost less in the long run and hurt so much less.

evalles

04-24-2008, 12:23 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Details
Scary, scary people. CPS is no cult, the FLDS obviously is. To be so willing as that person to overlook molested children is pretty scary. Seems some want to destroy a system with a high percentage success rate just because that rate is not 100%, while leaving kids in a system where the abuse rate is awfully close to 100%.

You don't ignore problems, even when most foster homes do a great job. But you don't ignore success either. You work on fixing the problems. Which is exactly what happens every time a problem crops up. But in most cases, the foster home is good. In most cases, CPS is acting appropriately. From every stat posted, every story, in a huge majority of the cases, this is true. Half a million kids in foster care, compared to a handful of abuse cases. The abuse cases need to be fixed, but you look at half a million kids with their parents, and I suspect you'll see more abuse. [/*][/QUOTE

Maybe where you come from. You're biased in favor of CPS just as much as I am against it.
When they make a mistake, the can destroy the child and his entire family.
To me, it sounds like you're programmed to think that anything CPS says is the gospel, that you would overlook any evidence to the contrary and instead look for whatever might support your position.

evalles

04-24-2008, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Carol25

Thank God we have the services of CPS. My complaint is sometimes they don't follow up on investigations where children have been so seriously harmed or died. We need more investigators. [/*]

Like Germany needed more Natzi's.

Heil CPS.

Carol25

04-24-2008, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by evalles

No, she's using it to get her point across, not in the typical sense of the word. She means they're worse than polygamists. Do you also want to question the fact that she thinks they're rapists and shouldn't be defended. She thinks that true polygamists have more than one wife,but that they're consenting adults not adults having sex with teenagers under the guise of religion.
She's telling everyone in the parent support group that they shouldn't support FLDS. So, if you doubt her comments, you should doubt that the FLDS are scum as far as she's concerned.
As for what happened to her w/ CPS, doubt it if you want, she lives 3 miles from me and I've seen all the documentation.
It's hard to believe because you can't imagine it happening. Neither could I a short year ago. I thought that anyone accused by the almighty child savers must be guilty, that they don't take children for no reason. The good ones don't, but they're not all good and they're in very powerful positions. My case only involved my 16 year old, my 6 & 7 year old were home the entire time,but this took its toll on our entire family. I live in a great neighborhood (my state rep and mayor live in my neighborhood)where I moved because it has awesome schools and is entirely kid oriented. Because of my incredibly big mouth, my neighbors/friends are all aware of what happened. A stay at home mom across the street was afraid to take her daughter to be tested for ADD because someone told her if she didn't agree to give her daughter ADD drugs they could charge her w/ medical neglect.
My daughter told me that the CPS worker told her aunt that she could let her spend the weekend with her boyfriend if she wanted. It was ok for her to work til midnight or 1AM while she was flunking all her classes.
This was not acceptable at my house.
She even discussed with my child, that I was causing her alot of trouble and they'd pulled her file 3 times. My state rep had something to do with this. I had to stand back while choices I felt were harmful to my child were made at every turn. Since her uncle has had several DWI's and is a persistent offender, I had to worry that he would get in an accident with my child. Since all their children do drugs (they sell and so does one of their sons) I was worried that my kid would become a drug addict.
This is what parents with children in foster care have to worry about all the time. Who has my child, are they taking care of them and are they safe ? Is the foster dad a perv ?
If the foster parent is ok, what about their family members or visitors to their home.
Yes I'm sure there are parents that could care less, and they'll probably be the ones to get their kids back.
Their criminal records can all be accessed by our county website. They were not allowed custody of the father's biological child and if wasn't against the rules, I'd post a link to the Tenn family court case(made case law because they awarded her to the grandparents and not the bio dad) in which he perjured himself on the stand, and tested positive for drugs during the course of the trial. The worker on the case has no children of her own and I'm a 37 year old mother of 3 with no crim record, no CPS history, a stable job, a nice home in a nice neighborhood and had purposely lived away from these family members for most of my adult life.
At this point, I consider it a learning experience. I actually trusted my govenment before this happened. [/*]
No, she said that CPS was a dangerous cult. Now anyone can look up the word "cult" and clearly see that no government agency would qualify, even if she wasn't sure what the word meant. It is clear that the CPS is established to benefit children and does so except in a fraction of cases where foster homes were not vetted well.
And to call the FLDS not a polygamous cult is also indefensible. The thought that these 13, 14 and 15 year old girls are consulting adults is an insult to anyone's intelligence. From these two opening statements, I had no reason to read any further to believe the rest was nothing but a bunch of hooey. I'm surprised you fell for this.

evalles

04-24-2008, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Carol25

No, she said that CPS was a dangerous cult. Now anyone can look up the word "cult" and clearly see that no government agency would qualify, even if she wasn't sure what the word meant. It is clear that the CPS is established to benefit children and does so except in a fraction of cases where foster homes were not vetted well.
And to call the FLDS not a polygamous cult is also indefensible. The thought that these 13, 14 and 15 year old girls are consulting adults is an insult to anyone's intelligence. From these two opening statements, I had no reason to read any further to believe the rest was nothing but a bunch of hooey. I'm surprised you fell for this. [/*]

LOL. She wasn't writing it to you. She was writing it to a group of people who feel victimized by the system. If you read and comprehended it, you would see that she never said that teenagers were consenting adults.
Her belief is that polygamy involves an adult make and adult women (over 18). This is why she says they were more than polygamists, they are criminals.
She's telling the group that by defending flds in any way is going to make them appear to be abusers.
What most of them want is reform, they want CPS to hold the bad workers accountable for their actions and that's all. Some are holding on to the belief that this was just a ranch where men had a bunch of wives. And what goes on between 2 people over the age of 18 is their own business.
Now that there are more facts coming out, it's ridiculous to think kids should grow up on this copmpound. I still think they should help the mothers that can be helped, but I'm afraid the older ones are lost causes.
She referred to CPS as a cult to get the attention of the group.
She was attempting to make them understand that you can't defend a group that does horrible things (FLDS) to persecute a group (cps) that you feel is bad. More or less, you're sometimes judged by the company you keep and nobody wants to be looked at as a buddy of Warren Jeff's. They're looking for a way to get people to see that the state can overstep its bounds, they can't do it by supporting FLDS. They can focus on the kids and this will keep even the bad workers ( I know you don't think they exist) on their toes.
I don't know how else to expain it, so I'm going to bed.

tisamystery

04-24-2008, 12:58 PM

So we should leave them in an environment that is almost certainly abusive (mentally, socially, and physically) rather than place them in a foster home that, statisically, has a small chance of being the same or worse?

Mandymax

04-24-2008, 01:11 PM

My great-aunt and -uncle were foster parents. They had a huge house with lots of bedrooms and a swimming pool out back, and during my entire childhood, there were always at least two or three foster kids living with them, if not more. My aunt and uncle were the ones CPS would call late at night with an emergency placement situation, or the ones who would take the kids no one else could handle. It wasn't until I was in my teens, having grown up playing with whatever kids happened to be living there at whatever time I visited, that I learned that none of these children were my blood cousins. They were treated like family, and they thrived. We all had a great time together.

My aunt and uncle were invited to numerous weddings and baptisms and college graduations over the years; they were also the people many of the foster children turned to later in life when they had moved on and things were rough. My aunt passed away many years ago, and my uncle's health is poor. He is still faithfully being tended to by one of the foster children he cared for so long ago, now a grown man himself with a family of his own.

There are bad people everywhere, in any organization you can name. But there are more good people than bad.

As always, my own opinion.

Annie143

04-24-2008, 02:38 PM

Mandymax, what a wonderful story. I am glad you posted that.

Your aunt and uncle:rose:

evalles

04-24-2008, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery
So we should leave them in an environment that is almost certainly abusive (mentally, socially, and physically) rather than place them in a foster home that, statisically, has a small chance of being the same or worse? [/*]

Who said kids should be left where they're abused ?

Details

04-24-2008, 02:59 PM

evalles - I think I get what you are saying on that one post - you're saying she's talking to people who believe CPS is evil incarnate, and using them as an example to say that while they are evil incarnate, FLDS is also evil incarnate but a little worse, in order to try to get them to realize that CPS is the lesser of two evils in this situation?

In other words, slamming CPS to establish her bonafides as a member of their group and to explain why in this case they're good?

Rainkiss

04-24-2008, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Freebird

And what's the alternative? Sweep foster care abuse under the rug when it happens? Seems like some here want to do that.Why should alleged abuse in FLDS get more attention then child abuse anywhere else? I think foster care abuse is more serious since kids are put in foster care for their protection. [/*]

Absolutely correct, Freebird, the abuse of children by foster parents should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Abuse is never excusable, and when performed by someone in a position of trust, unspeakable.

The system isn't perfect, but it's better than leaving some children in the abusive situations they have at home.

Solution? Monitoring the system. Check the budget at your local child welfare agency, and see how much your local are is spending per child in the system. Fight for reform, where needed. See that every child in foster care has a social worker they can turn to if they need help, and a supervisor over that social worker if THAT doesn't work out for them.

Heck, if you're in the position to do so, and think you'd make a better foster parent than the average, DO IT. If there are enough good families to place children with, and the agencies have the time and manpower to monitor what's going on, then the abuse within the system will decrease.

Rainkiss

04-24-2008, 03:10 PM

Just read what I just posted... Turning in my soapbox, now...

Annie143

04-24-2008, 05:03 PM

Just read what I just posted... Turning in my soapbox, now... why, rainkiss. I thought it was perfect and right on the money. :)

Rainkiss

04-24-2008, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Annie143
why, rainkiss. I thought it was perfect and right on the money. :) [/*]

It's not like me to be preachy, but this case has hit a lot of buttons for me. I've got friends who do social work, and I've heard their stories. And, my sister-in-law used to foster children. (Doesn't any more, since they had their own little girl and have shifted their focus to take care of her.)

I can understand people having negative reactions to a system which has treated them poorly... I just don't get tarring the whole system with that brush and trash talking it, rather that DOING something about it.

sardoodledom

04-24-2008, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by stptheracket
CPS workers do not remove children because the mom has a dirty house or because she got in a fight with dad! Excuses people use to look like victims when they fail to give minimal care to their children. If you mean by a dirty house a filth rodent infested drug hole then yea CPS will step in and remove the children. A fight with dad or a drunken brawl with injuries and child endangerment? Please stop trying to make it sound like CPS just takes kids out of homes for the fun of it. [/*]

I've also heard urban legends about CPS taking kids because their parents made them eat vegetables or some similar nonsense.

I have mentioned this before, but Mora 16 posted a thread a while back where she met a CPS worker at a dinner and the CPS worker said that neither she nor anyone in her office had EVER been asked to investigate something that turned out to be legitimate discipline.

The people I have heard about who were afraid to set limits for their children because of CPS had done something to raise CPS's radar. One person I'm thinking of has had a series of ex-convicts living with her and her teenage son.

Carol25

04-24-2008, 09:01 PM

It appears these children are going to group homes rather than foster homes. I've looked at the links and I'm very impressed with them. I just hope they are separating them from other residents who have behavioral problems

Details

04-24-2008, 09:07 PM

CPS says they are separating them, they are choosing homes where they can be together, live in a similar environment to what they are used to, and not be exposed to other children.The state Child Protective Services program said it chose foster homes where the youngsters can be kept apart from other children for now.

"We recognize it's critical that these children not be exposed to mainstream culture too quickly or other things that would hinder their success," agency spokeswoman Shari Pulliam said. "We just want to protect them from abuse and neglect. We're not trying to change them." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/24/national/main4040254.shtml

evalles

04-24-2008, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Details
evalles - I think I get what you are saying on that one post - you're saying she's talking to people who believe CPS is evil incarnate, and using them as an example to say that while they are evil incarnate, FLDS is also evil incarnate but a little worse, in order to try to get them to realize that CPS is the lesser of two evils in this situation?

In other words, slamming CPS to establish her bonafides as a member of their group and to explain why in this case they're good? [/*]

No, she still doesn't think they're good.
Since you've obviously seen good come from CPS, you're biased in their favor.
You should understand that someone that has been hurt by the system will be biased against them.
As all CPS workers aren't bad, neither are parents. To say that a parent is always lying and CPS is always telling the truth is exactly why the innocent parents feel the way they do.

Details

04-24-2008, 09:50 PM

Well - I meant "good" in terms of, relative to FLDS, they're good. Not that she was saying they are good in general.

See - what you say there seems irrational to me. Seeing good or bad from CPS should not make you biased - not to the point of ignoring the facts. Ignoring half a million foster kids for the sake of an immensely smaller number of bad stories. Ignoring all those saved because of some that you believe were improperly taken.

Someone hurt by the system should still be able to look at the system with a fair eye. As should someone helped by the system. Your own experiences are one of the factors - but how do you not look at all the other children saved when you think about CPS? How do you forget and ignore the fate of these children without CPS? I don't get it.

I don't ignore those hurt by CPS - but nor do I turn a blind eye to those helped. I expect investigations when they mess up - and I see those happen in the cases that make the news. I'd love to see kudoes for the cases where they work right - they get those rarely.

To me what you say sounds the same as, "Those hurt by men (rape victims) will be biased against them"; "Those hurt by blacks (robbery victim) will be biased against them", "Those hurt by Vietnamese (war veterans) will be biased against them". You shouldn't judge, for good or for bad, a group by one instance. If you must judge a group, you need to look at ALL of the cases - not just the bad ones, ALL of the story, not just the tale told by one side.

And no one but you says anything about "always" - the parent always lying, etc.

Carol25

04-24-2008, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Details
Well - I meant "good" in terms of, relative to FLDS, they're good. Not that she was saying they are good in general.

See - what you say there seems irrational to me. Seeing good or bad from CPS should not make you biased - not to the point of ignoring the facts. Ignoring half a million foster kids for the sake of an immensely smaller number of bad stories. Ignoring all those saved because of some that you believe were improperly taken.

Someone hurt by the system should still be able to look at the system with a fair eye. As should someone helped by the system. Your own experiences are one of the factors - but how do you not look at all the other children saved when you think about CPS? How do you forget and ignore the fate of these children without CPS? I don't get it.

I don't ignore those hurt by CPS - but nor do I turn a blind eye to those helped. I expect investigations when they mess up - and I see those happen in the cases that make the news. I'd love to see kudoes for the cases where they work right - they get those rarely.

To me what you say sounds the same as, "Those hurt by men (rape victims) will be biased against them"; "Those hurt by blacks (robbery victim) will be biased against them", "Those hurt by Vietnamese (war veterans) will be biased against them". You shouldn't judge, for good or for bad, a group by one instance. If you must judge a group, you need to look at ALL of the cases - not just the bad ones, ALL of the story, not just the tale told by one side.

And no one but you says anything about "always" - the parent always lying, etc. [/*]

"always," "all," and "never"....Should be carefully used.

Great post, Details! :beer:

evalles

04-24-2008, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by stptheracket
It is nonsense for people to say CPS takes kids away for some of the reasons I have heard people claim. They take children that are at risk of serious injury or neglect, Not because mom grounded them. They do not have the resources nor the time for that. [/*]

To say that it's nonsense, is calling all the parents liars, and you don't know them well enough to make that assumption.

evalles

04-25-2008, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by skytalk

Points well taken. Owning a bias one way or another is half the work of allowing it to dissolve. You have every reason to feel biased against CPS due to your experience.

Don't let anyone SHOULD on you. The forum is full of people telling you what you SHOULD and SHOULDN"T feel.

CPS workers are human beings subject to error and all human frailities--no different from parents. The system is not perfect either. Mistakes are made.

It is not easy to work for CPS. From my own experience, I found it heartbreaking. [/*]

Thank you.
I don't know what else to say.

__________________________________________________ __
After what happened I was very curious as to other's experiences with CPS. I was surprised at the number of people that live in this county that have had issues. I left Kansas two years ago and bought a house in my old home town. While I was waiting for my car to be inspected, I started talking to a lady that had issues w/ CPS due to a custody dispute between her husband and his ex. I told her that I was never accused of physical abuse and my daughter had everything she needed and most of what she wanted. I jokingly said, that since she'd survived to 16, I didn't know what reason they had to think she wouldn't make it to 18.
A gentlemen was sitting beside me,
and I saw him laugh. He'd been listening to our entire conversation and he worked for the Kansas City Star Newspaper.
When I asked what was so funny, he said that he left my county's CPS years before after 4 years of service. He laughed at my comment about my daughter's surviving to 16, because it reminded him of one of the cases that made him decide to leave. It involved an 8 year old boy that was happy and healthy and loved. He was taken because of a dirty house, I don't know how dirty, but this CPS worker didn't think it was dirty enough to take him away and give him to strangers.
He told the investigating worker the same thing, "well he's made it to 8 and he seems to be doing ok, why take him now."They didn't listen to him, the mom was thrown into a mojor depression and he doesn't know what happened to either one of them.
He left because he couldn't understand the logic behind their decisions.
He also said,in my county they seemed to take kids that could have stayed with their families and left the ones that he felt were at risk.

IMO,the good CPS workers usually don't stay. At least in our county.
IMO, corruption is prevalent in certain offices/counties. Just like in any office, management is key. It only takes a couple of unethical supervisors to taint the entire office.
I mentioned before that a worker in another county told me that the ones in my county were very good at cleaning up their messes.

evalles

04-25-2008, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by stptheracket
I am making that assumption based on the children that were placed in my home by CPS. Not a one from a dirty house or any other silly reason. The children placed in my home suffered from broken bones, neglect, abuse and their lives were at risk. Never did CPS ask me to take care of a kid that was not in danger, but when I went to court and listened to these parents and their attorneys it was always a mistake on CPS's part. Never the parents, I had one say that the 3 year old must have broke the 2 month old arm even though it was the third time her children had suffered abuse. The third time CPS had tried to help her. No I don't know them all, but I do know a lot of them. I am not saying mistakes don't happen but I believe a lot less than you want us to believe. We are on opposite sides of the fence here and after all that I have witnessed I would say 99.9% of CPS workers are caring, dedicated people. Not vindictive child nabbers. [/*]

It sounds like you took the hard cases. I don't think I know anyone capable of doing something like that.

In cases like you had, it was clear that the children were abused.

evalles

04-25-2008, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by Details
Well - I meant "good" in terms of, relative to FLDS, they're good. Not that she was saying they are good in general.

See - what you say there seems irrational to me. Seeing good or bad from CPS should not make you biased - not to the point of ignoring the facts. Ignoring half a million foster kids for the sake of an immensely smaller number of bad stories. Ignoring all those saved because of some that you believe were improperly taken.

Someone hurt by the system should still be able to look at the system with a fair eye. As should someone helped by the system. Your own experiences are one of the factors - but how do you not look at all the other children saved when you think about CPS? How do you forget and ignore the fate of these children without CPS? I don't get it.

I don't ignore those hurt by CPS - but nor do I turn a blind eye to those helped. I expect investigations when they mess up - and I see those happen in the cases that make the news. I'd love to see kudoes for the cases where they work right - they get those rarely.

To me what you say sounds the same as, "Those hurt by men (rape victims) will be biased against them"; "Those hurt by blacks (robbery victim) will be biased against them", "Those hurt by Vietnamese (war veterans) will be biased against them". You shouldn't judge, for good or for bad, a group by one instance. If you must judge a group, you need to look at ALL of the cases - not just the bad ones, ALL of the story, not just the tale told by one side.

And no one but you says anything about "always" - the parent always lying, etc. [/*]

What I'm hearing, is that it's wrong to judge a group without looking at all the cases, not just the bad ones ?
That we should listen to all of the story, not just one side of it.

You are absolutely right.

That means that ALL the mothers on the ranch should be looked at individually ? We should hear EVERY story, not just those of the accusers.
This all sounds so fair and rational.

Details

04-25-2008, 01:52 AM

Rainkiss

04-25-2008, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by evalles

What I'm hearing, is that it's wrong to judge a group without looking at all the cases, not just the bad ones ?
That we should listen to all of the story, not just one side of it.

You are absolutely right.

That means that ALL the mothers on the ranch should be looked at individually ? We should hear EVERY story, not just those of the accusers.
This all sounds so fair and rational. [/*]

Absolutely. The first step, of course, is to figure out which children belong to which parents. Since neither the children nor the parents are helping figure this out, the DNA testing is ongoing.

Next will be to start getting to the truth of the stories. At this point, the children appear to be being encouraged to lie about the simplest things, their own names, their ages, and the names of their parents. It's going to take the investigators some time to build enough trust with these children to get to the truth, particularly since these children have been trained since birth that anyone NOT of the FLDS is an agent of Satan.

It's going to take time to go through the mountain of paperwork and other evidence that was removed, but what records were kept will be useful, assuming, of course, they are accurate, and the names in the records can be matched to parents and children.

It's hard to listen to all sides of the story when nobody's talking, and that's what's happening. The only side BEING told is that of CPS. Everything else has been smoke and mirrors.

Say the police found a six year old wandering in the street outside your house. He won't tell them his name, and nobody on the street comes forward to say, "That's my son." What are they supposed to do with him? Should they turn him loose back on the street, or find someone to take care of him until they can figure out where he belongs? That's what's happening, here, except everyone on the street is screaming that he should be turned loose.

Rainkiss

04-25-2008, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Texanne
Another thing: Do you just turn the child over to anyone who CLAIMS to be the parent? How do you know who the real parent is? If someone does not provide birth certificates so parenthood can be traced, and backed up with a DNA test....the children cannot be turned over to anyone just making a claim. I think the sect has shot itself in the foot over this one.:) [/*]

Yep... And, with the children changing their names and ages during questioning, how do you know the six year old "Ruth Ann Smith" (Yes, I made the name up) on the birth certificate being provided by the adult is the girl that claimed the names "Ruth Ann Smith," "Mary Lee Jones," and "Ann Marie Harris," and has stated that she's five, six, and eight years old?

evalles

04-25-2008, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Details
You're hearing what you want to hear, obviously, since you choose to deliberately misquote me.

But all of the mothers will be looked at individually. When they are the individuals who control their children's lives. Living in the compound, they don't control anything, they've put themselves and their children in the control of Jeffs. All of the children - the only parties that we should be thinking of - will have their individual cases looked at, and at that point in time the mother will be looked at individually. [/*]

Snipped from your post:
__________________________________________________ __
If you must judge a group, you need to look at ALL of the cases - not just the bad ones, ALL of the story, not just the tale told by one side.
__________________________________________________ __

This is not a misquote. If this is how you truly feel, it shouldn't be limited only to groups that you support.

It's hypocritical to apply this only to CPS.

And I wasn't hearing what I wanted to hear, I knew that you were referring only to groups that you support.
I wanted to find out if you would see the obvious contradiction.
If you did, you won't admit it.

xray ra

04-26-2008, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Yep... And, with the children changing their names and ages during questioning, how do you know the six year old "Ruth Ann Smith" (Yes, I made the name up) on the birth certificate being provided by the adult is the girl that claimed the names "Ruth Ann Smith," "Mary Lee Jones," and "Ann Marie Harris," and has stated that she's five, six, and eight years old? [/*]

I love that name Ruthann:)
And I didn't even have to make it up:biggrin:

Annie143

04-26-2008, 04:01 PM

I wonder if the "home" where they are being housed accepts donated goods (diapers, etc) or money ? Is that something someone could check on ?

thx

gemsbmw

04-27-2008, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Aame
My prayer is that these kids don't have to suffer the same conditions we've heard of other children having to endure in the foster care system.

God Bless the child :rose: [/*]

If some of these kids are not with their REAL parents on that ranch, they were in foster care to begin with! I want to know why ALL of these people are not giving DNA samples....

They are hiding the fact that they STOLE children.

KatyDid

04-27-2008, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by gemsbmw

If some of these kids are not with their REAL parents on that ranch, they were in foster care to begin with! I want to know why ALL of these people are not giving DNA samples....

They are hiding the fact that they STOLE children. [/*]

Many are hiding like cowards...on the run from the fact they have fathered children with minors. Then there is the possibility incest may be uncovered too.

ITA! some of the women and children have been taken from their original homes and 'placed' with a new 'husband'.

tisamystery

04-27-2008, 01:12 PM

ITA! some of the women and children have been taken from their original homes and 'placed' with a new 'husband'. [/*]

This goes so against the traditional Mormon belief that a marriage is eternal. I was wondering how they explain this extreme variation to the FLDS followers but then I remembered - they have been raised in this group and may not even be aware of the sanctity the Mormons place on marital union.

Devotion

04-27-2008, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by gemsbmw

If some of these kids are not with their REAL parents on that ranch,
they were in foster care to begin with!

I want to know why ALL of these people are not giving DNA samples....

They are hiding the fact that they STOLE children......
[/*]

Hi Gem,
That isn't all they've stolen according to the following article....
Seems they have been "bleeding the beast", which are the hard-working, honest TAXPAYERS of the state, for decades....causing everyone's taxes to increase.
It was SHOCKING to read they received
1 MILLION $$$ a MONTH for insurance premiums from the state.....
These people seem to be SMARTER than our elected officials......imo?
.......QUOTE

The STATE (who was in office then? names please) not only IGNORED the crimes for decades,

it helped facilitate them by allowing the FLDS polygamists to set
1. up a town government,
2. a public school district
3. and a police department,

that has received TENS of MILLIONS of DOLLARS in TAXPAYER FUNDS.

despite the fact that polygamy VIOLATES Arizona's Constitution.

The fundamentalist community has also benefited immensely from state health-care services for the poor and indigent

by receiving more than $12 MILLION A YEAR,
in state assistance in Arizona to PAY for health-insurance premiums.

It turns out that TAXPAYERS also have been FOOTING THE BILL

for the FUMARASE deficiency children,
born to polygamists who INSIST that plural marriage involving close relatives is their DIVINE RIGHT.........
..jmo...moo

Annie143

04-27-2008, 03:14 PM

All of this makes me sick.

We have the polygamists bleeding the middle class American taxpayer dry and then we have the illegal immigrants and all the costs that we are told we owe them.........

We can barely survive and we work 60-70 hours a week.

Roux

04-27-2008, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Annie143
All of this makes me sick.

We have the polygamists bleeding the middle class American taxpayer dry and then we have the illegal immigrants and all the costs that we are told we owe them.........

We can barely survive and we work 60-70 hours a week. [/*]

And they're soliciting donations for help with their legal fees!

evalles

04-28-2008, 02:33 PM

Here's a kink to a study on foster care.

http://economics.ca/2007/papers/0107.pdf

evalles

04-28-2008, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by evalles
Here's a kink to a study on foster care.

http://economics.ca/2007/papers/0107.pdf [/*]

I meant a link, not a kink. I sometimes post using my palm and the buttons are very close together.

Rainkiss

04-28-2008, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by evalles
Here's a kink to a study on foster care.

http://economics.ca/2007/papers/0107.pdf [/*]

Interesting study, I'll have to go over it more closely when I have time.

It first glance, it looks like the big differences in the findings between children placed in foster care, and those who contacted CPS and were NOT put in foster care are:

Public Assistance.placement in foster care reduces income assistance in the short run but increases it following the 19th birthday

Sounds like the FLDS is supported a great deal by public assistance. The girls who aren't first wives will be filing for support for themselves and a dozen or so children. The boys will either be tossed out to the street (leading to, from what the interviewed "lost boys" have said, a life of drug use and all sorts of social problems) or will father dozens of children on multiple women, most of whom will be supported by the welfare system.

Education. Placement in foster care reduces the percentage graduating from high school by around ten percentage points.

FLDS kids rarely if ever graduate from high school, from what I've seen. The boys are taken out of school and put to work (illegally, the FLDS has been fined for it several tiems). The girls are taken out of school and sent to an old man's bed.

So it sounds like the greatest risks in placing these children in foster care are the ones where they're likely to have problems left where the are.

How's my logic?

evalles

04-28-2008, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Interesting study, I'll have to go over it more closely when I have time.

It first glance, it looks like the big differences in the findings between children placed in foster care, and those who contacted CPS and were NOT put in foster care are:

Public Assistance.

Sounds like the FLDS is supported a great deal by public assistance. The girls who aren't first wives will be filing for support for themselves and a dozen or so children. The boys will either be tossed out to the street (leading to, from what the interviewed "lost boys" have said, a life of drug use and all sorts of social problems) or will father dozens of children on multiple women, most of whom will be supported by the welfare system.

Education.

FLDS kids rarely if ever graduate from high school, from what I've seen. The boys are taken out of school and put to work (illegally, the FLDS has been fined for it several tiems). The girls are taken out of school and sent to an old man's bed.

So it sounds like the greatest risks in placing these children in foster care are the ones where they're likely to have problems left where the are.

How's my logic? [/*]

Better than mine when it comes to understanding statistical studies.
I posted a link on the Are the children better with CPS or with their mothers? board based on a study by the Texas Comptroller's office in 2006.
It's disturbing, but easier for me to understand.
I have to read the statistical studies several times before I get them.
This is clear and scary.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html

KatyDid

04-28-2008, 03:56 PM

Is that an apples to apples study?

Are they comparing the kids placed in foster care to the kid that stay in abusive home environments? Are they comparing where the kids were with where they are now, or are they coparing foster care kids with kids that grown up in a stable home?

So kids in an abusive home environment graduate high school at a 10% higher rate than kids in a foster home.

evalles

04-28-2008, 04:18 PM

Details

04-28-2008, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid
Is that an apples to apples study?

Are they comparing the kids placed in foster care to the kid that stay in abusive home environments? Are they comparing where the kids were with where they are now, or are they coparing foster care kids with kids that grown up in a stable home?

So kids in an abusive home environment graduate high school at a 10% higher rate than kids in a foster home. [/*]I wouldn't say it's quite apples to apples. It's the kids whose parents were bad enough to have CPS intervention, but not so bad as to lose their children, versus the kids of parents who were so bad as to completely lose their children. It's closer than a study (like the touted controller study - I've posted about that on another thread) that compares all children to just those in foster care - but it's not apples to apples just because we can't do a "control" group of children that we deliberately leave in an abusive home just to see how bad it'll get for them.

Details

04-28-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by evalles

This is very clear.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html [/*]No, this is highly flawed. It compares the children in foster care - the children with abuse, neglect, and all kinds of troubles, to all children.

As I said on another thread, with that type of statistic, you could conclude that the infant ICU is killing babies - after all, the mortality rate of all infants is many times lower than the mortality rate of infants sent to the infant ICU. That's what the comptroller link above is using as a comparison - completely useless.

The other study you posted is like comparing all infants that were considered for maybe needing to be in the infant ICU, versus all those who were in the infant ICU - and you'll find, as it did, a more similar mortality rate, but still different.

But neither is apples to apples. Nor can they be - we can't do placebo tests, experiment with leaving some infants to die in their mothers rooms, experiment with leaving some children in their abusive homes, just to try to get our statistical data.

Details

04-28-2008, 06:04 PM

I posted this on another thread, but it really belongs here - the percentage of underage pregnancies between FLDS and foster care. The percentage for rape is a problem - FLDS thinks this is right and I doubt their doctor will report treating the underage girl for any damage that might occur during her "wedding" night. But childbirth can't be hidden.

Here we are - here's the data - FLDS:Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.Foster homes:Data shows that while the number of foster children in our state's care increased 24 percent from 26,133 in Fiscal 2003 to 32,474 in Fiscal 2005......142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system. So - FLDS - 58% underage pregnancy rate. Foster care - 0.26% pregnancy rate.

That's why you look at the data, at percentages, not just at numbers picked out of context to scare you. Now, you might have a case that this is a per year thing - but we're only talking about 4 years between 14 and 17, so if you multiply the foster care number by 4 years, you get all the way to a whole 1% pregnancy rate versus FLDS 58% pregnancy rate.

That's a huge difference.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428...vTxIra_5p.s0NUE

Rainkiss

04-28-2008, 06:22 PM

And, just a side note... Ms. Strayhorn was running for governor in 2006, so give weight to the fact that she was, at this point, building herself up for the run.

She declared her run on May 6th, and this was released on June 23rd.

She's releasing flat numbers, not percentages of the totals, bad statistics.

Details, your link to the yahoo.news site is broken, can you try again? Thanks!

Details

04-28-2008, 07:04 PM

Here's a different link to the same story:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352966,00.html

evalles

04-28-2008, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by Details
No, this is highly flawed. It compares the children in foster care - the children with abuse, neglect, and all kinds of troubles, to all children.

As I said on another thread, with that type of statistic, you could conclude that the infant ICU is killing babies - after all, the mortality rate of all infants is many times lower than the mortality rate of infants sent to the infant ICU. That's what the comptroller link above is using as a comparison - completely useless.

The other study you posted is like comparing all infants that were considered for maybe needing to be in the infant ICU, versus all those who were in the infant ICU - and you'll find, as it did, a more similar mortality rate, but still different.

But neither is apples to apples. Nor can they be - we can't do placebo tests, experiment with leaving some infants to die in their mothers rooms, experiment with leaving some children in their abusive homes, just to try to get our statistical data. [/*]

Who's we ?

evalles

04-28-2008, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
And, just a side note... Ms. Strayhorn was running for governor in 2006, so give weight to the fact that she was, at this point, building herself up for the run.

She declared her run on May 6th, and this was released on June 23rd.

She's releasing flat numbers, not percentages of the totals, bad statistics.

Details, your link to the yahoo.news site is broken, can you try again? Thanks! [/*]

I saw that, but I didn't find anything that refuted her findings.

Details

04-28-2008, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by evalles
Who's we ? [/*]"We" - humanity. Society. Us. I'd think that was obvious.

We can't do tests where we leave half the children in danger, and take half out, to see which half fares better - because we are humans. Unless you think that this is not a near universal belief, that some of society, some humans believe it is OK to leave kids in abusive homes to see how much it will warp them?

Refuting her findings is the other link you posted, and the simple fact that she has no findings. She's talking individual cases not percentages, which means nothing. By individual cases you could come up with a much more damning view of parental care to say that no human being should be allowed to reproduce.

Devotion

04-28-2008, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Texanne

Just how are the authorities supposed to turn the children back over to mothers and fathers....

when the mothers and fathers will not even step forward and identify themselves as such?

I have asked this over and over without someone telling me.
What is the reason the cult adults are not willing to identify themselves as the parents of these children?

If a parent really loves a child, they would be DEMANDING to be identified as the parent.

I think the only parents we are going to hear from are those where the mother was an adult when the child was born.

And what kind of mental abuse has happened when the children cannot identify which mother is theirs?

Tiny children were not sure what their names were.

Something was very, very wrong there....... [/*]

Hi Tex,
Dysfunctional and hiding something very, very wrong....
WHY so secretive about who the mother and father are of each child?
What's the BIG deal about the children with NO names?
If there's nothing to hide, there's no need to run and hide....
reminds me of something right out of a science fiction horror movie.....imo