Daily Thread 4/23, 24, & 25

[LLaFren]

So we can keep up with todays events.

[LLaFren]

Anybody else catch this?

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4694487&page=1

About halfway down the article:

Can the DNA gathered this week be used in a later criminal prosecution of, say, an adult accused of raping an underage girl?

Probably so. The issue would be whether DNA obtained in the child-protection process (a civil proceeding) could be used in a criminal proceeding, which implicates the constitutional protections against self-incrimination and an illegal search and seizure.


Giving DNA is not like giving testimony, so there is probably no issue of self-incrimination. Gathering DNA is like conducting a search, but it's being done under a court order issued after a hearing, so any argument that the search lacked probable cause and was illegal would be weak.

How many dads are going to disappear into the woodwork now?

[LLaFren]

Pretty good video:

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4677613

(I hope I did that right)

LL

[KatyDid]

http://wtop.com/index.php?nid=104&pid=0&sid=1380892&page=2

Texas officials try to determine polygamist family ties
April 22, 2008 - 8:12am

The judge also asked the attorneys to look for a Mormon volunteer to help watch over twice-daily prayers after attorneys for the women who remain with young children at the coliseum complained they weren't given enough freedom to hold their usual prayer service. CPS has said it has no intention of infringing on their religious rights but wants to be sure the women aren't conspiring to tamper with witnesses in the custody case.

[lotty]

http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/DS/Warren_Jeffs_Searching_For_Zion.mp3

"Yearning For Zion" the song by Warren Jeffs.

I hope this link works for anyone wanting to listen to the song.
Make up your own minds.

IMO it really got on my nerves...not the words, sometimes I can't understand what the man is singing.

[tisamystery]

better start another thread. Wrong date. It'll get confusing.

[tisamystery]

Okay. 4/22 started. We'll come back here tomorrow. :)

[LLaFren]

sorry, days get ahead of themselves....

I have a time machine in my basement (I live in FL anybody interested in real estate here?)

[spageddy]

ok, it's today now.
(at least I think it is) I watched clips of the children being taken away on busses. They were all waving. Who were they waving to?I was under the impression that their parents were not there. I couldn't see the faces of the children but it looked like happy waving to me. I have no basis for saying this- just a gut feeling. Maybe wishful thinking. Did anyone else get the impression that the children may have been enjoying themselves? Maybe a bus ride is big fun for kids who have not seen much of the world outside of their ranch.Lets hope.

[txsage]

All I can think is "Culture Shock"!!! Bless them......peace and Hope for recovery. They will need intense therapy!

[Rainkiss]

Could be they were waving to the people who've been taking care of them for the past several days. Glad to hear they look happy.

[cloe23]

Morning All!:seeya:

I need to get caught up here on these links. Thanks to all who have posted information for all of us to read.
Cloe

[lotty]

Originally posted by cloe23
Morning All!:seeya:

I need to get caught up here on these links. Thanks to all who have posted information for all of us to read.
Cloe [/*]

Good Morning All! :seeya:

[cloe23]

Originally posted by txsage
All I can think is "Culture Shock"!!! Bless them......peace and Hope for recovery. They will need intense therapy! [/*]

All I can think is rehab! The feeling you get when your down and out and are being told over and over by persons who care that things are going to be ok. Yes their happy and eager their finally getting the help that they deserve. Otherwise known to me as deprogramming.
Someone has mentioned pet's before, I think that is would be so sweet for these kids. Pets are so loyal. :)

[cloe23]

Originally posted by lotty


Good Morning All! :seeya: [/*]

:patriot: Go Texas! Rock on........

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by cloe23


All I can think is rehab! The feeling you get when your down and out and are being told over and over by persons who care that things are going to be ok. Yes their happy and eager their finally getting the help that they deserve. Otherwise known to me as deprogramming.
Someone has mentioned pet's before, I think that is would be so sweet for these kids. Pets are so loyal. :) [/*]

I'd be VERY careful putting those kids with pets... They've never had pets, so they don't know how to act around them. I know my kitties are perfectly happy to sink a claw into you if you yank on their tails, and they don't care if you're playing or just don't know any better. And, if they've been taught that pets are wrong to have, evil, or who knows what, I hate to think what some of the older kids might do to those animals.

[lotty]

Originally posted by cloe23

<respectfully snipped>
Someone has mentioned pet's before, I think that is would be so sweet for these kids. Pets are so loyal. :) [/*]

I think pets could be very theraputic(sp?). They were allowed pets, until Warren Jeffs stepped in to the role of Prophet. I can't remember why he ordered them done away with. Maybe I'll hunt up the link.

[Rainkiss]

Interesting bit of info...

FLDS Change in Leadership (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=508&sid=1072877)

Apparently Warren Jeffs is starting to lose his grip on the leadership of the FLDS.

[lotty]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy186.html

"Since there is no courtship, there is no dancing. And no out-of-town baseball games: The prophet does not cotton to contact with the outside world.

Now and then, residents are told to get rid of their cats and dogs - no explanation given.

The last serious attempt at outside intervention dates back to 1953, when governor Howard Pyle arrested two-dozen local men and placed about 200 children in foster homes."

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


I'd be VERY careful putting those kids with pets... They've never had pets, so they don't know how to act around them. I know my kitties are perfectly happy to sink a claw into you if you yank on their tails, and they don't care if you're playing or just don't know any better. And, if they've been taught that pets are wrong to have, evil, or who knows what, I hate to think what some of the older kids might do to those animals. [/*]

Point taken.
OK how about a walk through the zoo?

[cloe23]

Originally posted by lotty


I think pets could be very theraputic(sp?). They were allowed pets, until Warren Jeffs stepped in to the role of Prophet. I can't remember why he ordered them done away with. Maybe I'll hunt up the link. [/*]


LOL, Im so lazy when it comes to posting links, I need to work on that. Maybe......

[cloe23]

Originally posted by lotty
http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/DS/Warren_Jeffs_Searching_For_Zion.mp3

"Yearning For Zion" the song by Warren Jeffs.

I hope this link works for anyone wanting to listen to the song.
Make up your own minds.

IMO it really got on my nerves...not the words, sometimes I can't understand what the man is singing. [/*]


I personally liked it. But I'm a total music geek, love piano music and such.
What I do questions is.........
Is Warren Jeffs the ******* that they are refering too? Or is that the comming of Christ?
Never one mention that I heard about Zion= Who is defined as The land of Isreal(Capital) or A mountian in Jersalem=Mont Zion.(Mountian in the City of David) I Think, per Wikipedia.

The song has many words like, Beautiful City, Redemption,
God, Christ and Lord.

None of this for me has been about their chosen right of religion, for me its about the teenagers having babies with the Elders.
And the babies not been allowed to cry, not a behaviour that is taught, it is a reflex at birth. IMO (At least for my two is was, LOL)
And not knowing who your momma is, sickens me.
This is about protecting over 400 children who someday I repeate often, we will need to assist us. (Thery are our future) The children.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Interesting bit of info...

FLDS Change in Leadership (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=508&sid=1072877)

Apparently Warren Jeffs is starting to lose his grip on the leadership of the FLDS. [/*]

:eek: Wendell Nielsen's photo is going up alongside Jeffs' in homes. Our sources believe Nielsen is telling people he speaks for Jeffs, because it's through Jeffs that Nielsen gets his legitimacy. But he may also be telling others Jeffs has become sick in jail and can no longer lead.



Sick in jail!! Yeah right, what a pathetic piece of excrement Jeffs is. He is sick by his own doings, refusing to eat, etc. barf

[KatyDid]

Coming up on ttv, JFlo says she will have updates on the FLDS happenings in Texas. Says she will talk about the kids being moved yesterday.

:seeya:

[KatyDid]

Discussion of TRO regarding seperation of very young children from their mothers. Attorneys have been unsuccessful getting the judge to hear them about TRO.

Breast feeding issue is not going to be a factor in judge's decision. She says every day women in America have children and go back to work. These women won't get special consideration because of that.

Rodney Parker, attorney for polygamist sect speaking out against CPS. He is talking nonense, IMO. He should do a little more reading in the law books.

All children removed because there was proof of a pervasive pattern of abuse on the compund.

[lotty]

IMO/JMO I just had a thought...I would really like to know what their life expectancy for women is, infant mortality rates, teen pregnancy. Numbers, I bet can't be found... Also the concept of "Old Maid" is basically gone from our society ( I haven't heard the phrase in a long time.) I wonder what would be an "Old Maid" to them? As always IMO/JMO

[juliekan]

JFlo is an idiot, saying many religious groups have a long history of marrying young girls (that makes it OK? Legal?) TH "Frank" somebody talking about the judge being a man (WRONG).

:flamemad:

[lotty]

<respectfully snipped>
Originally posted by KatyDid


Rodney Parker, attorney for polygamist sect speaking out against CPS. He is talking nonense, IMO. He should do a little more reading in the law books.

All children removed because there was proof of a pervasive pattern of abuse on the compund. [/*]

Didn't Rod Parker quit Warren in the Brent Jeffs case, or Warren fired Parker? I can't remember, I think Rod Parker quit being Warren's attorney during that case. I wonder why he is back? IMO/JMO

[dmh]

I heard that some men have gone to another compound to avoid being tested. It just shows me they have something to hide. And if they did leave aren't they deserting their children?
Also some woman are collecting welfair. If they want to collect welfair, then they should abide by the law. jmo

[juliekan]

St. Louis Trib reports 4 more buses have arrived to move more children today.

[dmh]

oops! sorry for the spelling:D

[lotty]

Originally posted by dmh
I heard that some men have gone to another compound to avoid being tested. It just shows me they have something to hide. And if they did leave aren't they deserting their children?
Also some woman are collecting welfair. If they want to collect welfair, then they should abide by the law. jmo [/*]

IMO/JMO So does this mean someone there actually knows the law? Or right from wrong? Or did the "Prophet" send them away? IMO/JMO

[dmh]

Originally posted by lotty


IMO/JMO So does this mean someone there actually knows the law? Or right from wrong? Or did the "Prophet" send them away? IMO/JMO [/*]

But they know the law when it comes to taking the tax payers money. JMO

[lotty]

Originally posted by dmh


But they know the law when it comes to taking the tax payers money. JMO [/*]

:biggrin: Well ofcourse they do. Receiving is better than giving, or did I get that backwards. As always JMO/IMO

[lotty]

http://arizona.quickcityinfo.com/Colorado%20City/Census

Total population (Total): 4,064
Total population 18 years and over (Total): 1,601
Population under 20 years (Total): 2,606
Population 65 years and over (Total): 62
White alone population 65 years and over (Total): 59
Black or African American alone population 65 years and over (Total): 1
Some other race alone population 65 years and over (Total): 2
Hispanic or Latino population 65 years and over (Total): 4
As of 2000.

Thank you Census Bureau.
I'm still not finding what I'm looking for!:cuss: JMO/IMO

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by lotty
http://arizona.quickcityinfo.com/Colorado%20City/Census

Total population (Total): 4,064
Total population 18 years and over (Total): 1,601
Population under 20 years (Total): 2,606
Population 65 years and over (Total): 62
White alone population 65 years and over (Total): 59
Black or African American alone population 65 years and over (Total): 1
Some other race alone population 65 years and over (Total): 2
Hispanic or Latino population 65 years and over (Total): 4
As of 2000.

Thank you Census Bureau.
I'm still not finding what I'm looking for!:cuss: JMO/IMO [/*]

Very interesting figures. Wonder what the ratio of women to men is?

[lotty]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Very interesting figures. Wonder what the ratio of women to men is? [/*]

I don't know, found another interesting one: 2006
http://www.azcommerce.com/doclib/COMMUNE/colorado%20city.pdf

Sorry, I'm really only checking CC/Hildale, because they are incorporated communities. I don't think I can anything on the compounds (I'll try though.):seeya:

[spydernweb2006]

This should end the claims of illegal search on the FLDS Compound:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_search;_ylt=AsS9jPvuBWSgfj0EcUsIi7es0NUE

The Supreme Court just ruled it does not matter at all if what they went in for if they see/saw illegal activity. While I pray IF there is/was a Sarah they find her and help her it now legally has no bearing on the children being removed by CPS for abuse.

According to the noon news here in the DFW area there are bus loads of kids on their way here to be cared for until the DNA comes back and it can be determined who belongs to who and what legal items have to occur before the Parents can reclaim their kids. They are going to be kept for CPS by the Catholic Charities Shelters according to the news. CC has not confirmed. This was on WFAA, if anyone wants to look it up, it should be on their website.

Here is the video of the noon news regarding that:

http://www.wfaa.com/video/index.html?nvid=238490


JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

** edited to fix a spelling error

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid
Coming up on ttv, JFlo says she will have updates on the FLDS happenings in Texas. Says she will talk about the kids being moved yesterday.


Well I missed any updates. I did see J F's 'Last word' = 'Things that go bum p in the night'
totally OT imo

Just doing her job to try and spin a defense!

Not disrespect JF

:seeya: [/*]:)

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by dmh
I heard that some men have gone to another compound to avoid being tested. It just shows me they have something to hide. And if they did leave aren't they deserting their children?
Also some woman are collecting welfair. If they want to collect welfair, then they should abide by the law. jmo [/*]

Those men don't care about these children, they'll just go to another compound, get more wives and make some more. JMO but I don't think they will put up much of a fight for the 400+. Those kids are of no use to them now and their very existence may be the downfall of some when the DNA comes back. I'm not so sure I would trust them with the kids....I'm not really confident the children wouldn't end up in some other location under a new name.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by spydernweb2006
This should end the claims of illegal search on the FLDS Compound:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_search;_ylt=AsS9jPvuBWSgfj0EcUsIi7es0NUE

The Supreme Court just ruled it does not matter at all if what they went in for if they see/saw illegal activity. While I pray IF there is/was a Sarah they find her and help her it now legally has no bearing on the children being removed by CPS for abuse.

According to the noon news here in the DFW area there are bus loads of kids on their way here to be cared for until the DNA comes back and it can be determined who belongs to who and what legal items have to occur before the Parents can reclaim their kids. They are going to be kept for CPS by the Catholic Charities Shelters according to the news. CC has not confirmed. This was on WFAA, if anyone wants to look it up, it should be on their website.

Here is the video of the noon news regarding that:

http://www.wfaa.com/video/index.html?nvid=238490


JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

** edited to fix a spelling error [/*]

Good for the Supreme Court!!! Maybe that will keep these hack attorneys from making false statements.

Almost all the TH on the news channels and ttv have said the same. It makes no difference what initially went to the 'ranch' for. The fact they saw what could be illegal activity...pregnant teenage girls...gave them the right to take the next step.

[lotty]

<respectfully snipped>
Originally posted by spydernweb2006
This should end the claims of illegal search on the FLDS Compound:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_search;_ylt=AsS9jPvuBWSgfj0EcUsIi7es0NUE

The Supreme Court just ruled it does not matter at all if what they went in for if they see/saw illegal activity. While I pray IF there is/was a Sarah they find her and help her it now legally has no bearing on the children being removed by CPS for abuse.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

** edited to fix a spelling error [/*]
Great post! I don't get the "freedom of religion argument anyway" at least not on this.
Heaven's Gate...all adults, some had even had themselves castrated, no children. Want to believe there is a UFO in the tail of the Hale Bopp comet, be my guest. I think the only law they broke was suicide. Kind of O/T, but kind of not.
We are free to believe anything we want, we are free to practice, so long as it does not break secular laws.
As always JMO/IMO

[spydernweb2006]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Don't kid yourself. There are a handful of people here who, no matter what real, live, legitimate, validated evidence is presented, will claim 'til he!! freezes over that Texas authorities should've left that nasty bunch of mothers and 'uncles' alone to continue their culture of child abuse, 'bleeding the beast,' and 'lying for the lord.' [/*]


While I agree with you I wanted to post the SCOTUS ruling so anyone trying to debate the point would know that the formost defender of the Constitution and the LAST word on US law had just addressed this very issue.

So now if anyone wants to debate they are free too but before anyone sticks a foot in their mouth they are atleast informed.


JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[lotty]

Originally posted by cloe23



I personally liked it. But I'm a total music geek, love piano music and such.
What I do questions is.........
Is Warren Jeffs the ******* that they are refering too? Or is that the comming of Christ?
Never one mention that I heard about Zion= Who is defined as The land of Isreal(Capital) or A mountian in Jersalem=Mont Zion.(Mountian in the City of David) I Think, per Wikipedia.

The song has many words like, Beautiful City, Redemption,
God, Christ and Lord.

/*]

You actually understood the words he was singing! Maybe I was still asleep yesterday morning.:punch: I might have to listen again, since I'm awake now.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by spydernweb2006
This should end the claims of illegal search on the FLDS Compound:
Respectfully Snipped.....http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_search;_ylt=AsS9jPvuBWSgfj0EcUsIi7es0NUE

Here is the video of the noon news regarding that:

http://www.wfaa.com/video/index.html?nvid=238490


JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

** edited to fix a spelling error [/*]


Thanks you for the links!

For the Love of???????????????

I bet these elder men are just nuts that their wives and babies (right too salvation) are now in the hand or Catholic Charities!

Texas you rock:patriot:

[Rainkiss]

Supreme Court Broadens Search Powers (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/23/scotus.searches/index.html)

Just to toss another bit of info out there, the Supreme Court just ruled in Virginia on the issue of probable cause and searches.

"When officers have probable cause to believe that a person has committed a crime in their presence, the Fourth Amendment permits them to make an arrest, and to search the suspect in order to safeguard evidence and ensure their own safety," Justice Antonin Scalia wrote.


*edit* Ah, same case that was posted earlier, different article...

[Carol25]

Now, let's go through these IRS forms, welfare records and examine the financial records of the FLDS....
Perhaps a search for the leaders of the Eldorado FLDS is in order....:D

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Carol25
Now, let's go through these IRS firms, welfare records and examine the financial records of the FLDS....
Perhaps a search for the leaders of the Eldorado FLDS is in order....:D [/*]

:D I betcha that's not far behind, if not already started. I have a feeling Texas was already sniffing around about that too.

:seeya: hiya Carol!

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by Carol25
Now, let's go through these IRS forms, welfare records and examine the financial records of the FLDS....
Perhaps a search for the leaders of the Eldorado FLDS is in order....:D [/*]

It may very well be, if they can find evidence of wrongdoing there, as well. I'm afraid I'm willing to bet that the fathers in this case will be permitting the children to be taken for good, rather than submit to testing and have the women take off the single mother rosters. The women may be tested if it means getting the kids back.

Anybody have any new info about who's shown up to be tested to date (other than the children)?

[lotty]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


It may very well be, if they can find evidence of wrongdoing there, as well. I'm afraid I'm willing to bet that the fathers in this case will be permitting the children to be taken for good, rather than submit to testing and have the women take off the single mother rosters. The women may be tested if it means getting the kids back.

Anybody have any new info about who's shown up to be tested to date (other than the children)? [/*]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/ranch-residents-give-up-dna/
Ranch residents give up DNA
By Matt Phinney (Contact)
Wednesday, April 23, 2008

Oooh just saw another article on subpoenas funding YFZ! Back in a jiffy! IMO

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by lotty


http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/ranch-residents-give-up-dna/
Ranch residents give up DNA
By Matt Phinney (Contact)
Wednesday, April 23, 2008

Oooh just saw another article on subpoenas funding YFZ! Back in a jiffy! IMO [/*]

From the link:

DNA sampling of YFZ Ranch residents began about 10 a.m. Tuesday, but an hour later, only three men, presumably polygamist sect members, had walked into the building and back out again.

ONLY THREE MEN!!! :cuss:

Is the the coward smiley>>>>>>>:chicken: :chicken:

ETA: I wonder if it is the three men who were interviewed for tv? They are they only ones to show their face so far.

[lotty]

While many have wondered how a Mormon splinter sect financed its multimillion-dollar development near Eldorado, one man thinks he knows the answer.

Bruce Wisan, an officer for the sect's $100 million real estate trust, said he believes sect spiritual leader Warren Jeffs drained the trust to pay for the YFZ Ranch and improvements there now valued at $21 million altogether.
Subpoenas to see whether sect's $100M trust was drained to fund YFZ Ranch, improvements
By TRISH CHOATE, Staff writer

Wednesday, April 23, 2008
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/subpoenas-to-see-whether-sects-100m-trust-was-to/

[Rainkiss]

Thanks, Lotty!

A young man named Rulon said giving the sample was "painless." He had much to say about the case that has captivated the country since the raid.

"It's an embarrassment to the state to require us to do this," he said. "We've got nothing to hide. We've broken no laws."

Going to take maybe an odd tack here and take the position that he actually believes what he said... The question is, does he KNOW that there are laws regarding both polygamy and age of consent? Or, do they not consider any of the "rules" outside of the ranch to be "laws?" Just wondering how deep the word games run, and how that'll affect working with the children. If they believe that the word "law" only refers to the laws of the FLDS church, and everything else is a "rule," then they can pass a polygraph about not breaking a law, even if they've been molesting young teens every day of their lives.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Thanks, Lotty!



Going to take maybe an odd tack here and take the position that he actually believes what he said... The question is, does he KNOW that there are laws regarding both polygamy and age of consent? Or, do they not consider any of the "rules" outside of the ranch to be "laws?" Just wondering how deep the word games run, and how that'll affect working with the children. If they believe that the word "law" only refers to the laws of the FLDS church, and everything else is a "rule," then they can pass a polygraph about not breaking a law, even if they've been molesting young teens every day of their lives. [/*]

He should have said HE had nothing to hide, not WE have nothing to hide. I think he only speaks for himself. If not, then why don't the other men come forward?

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by lotty
While many have wondered how a Mormon splinter sect financed its multimillion-dollar development near Eldorado, one man thinks he knows the answer.

Bruce Wisan, an officer for the sect's $100 million real estate trust, said he believes sect spiritual leader Warren Jeffs drained the trust to pay for the YFZ Ranch and improvements there now valued at $21 million altogether.
Subpoenas to see whether sect's $100M trust was drained to fund YFZ Ranch, improvements
By TRISH CHOATE, Staff writer

Wednesday, April 23, 2008
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/subpoenas-to-see-whether-sects-100m-trust-was-to/ [/*]

LOL!!! He forgot mention the money Jeffs spent while on the run from the FBI. hammer

[lotty]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Thanks, Lotty!



Going to take maybe an odd tack here and take the position that he actually believes what he said... The question is, does he KNOW that there are laws regarding both polygamy and age of consent? Or, do they not consider any of the "rules" outside of the ranch to be "laws?" Just wondering how deep the word games run, and how that'll affect working with the children. If they believe that the word "law" only refers to the laws of the FLDS church, and everything else is a "rule," then they can pass a polygraph about not breaking a law, even if they've been molesting young teens every day of their lives. [/*]

"Word games.":punch: IMO they are going to try every tactic under the sun. Like the PR thing which I just do not get! I think I have ADD today, still didn't find the numbers I was looking for and my brain is reeling! Got to stop for lunch. BRB:seeya:

[cloe23]

Originally posted by juliekan
St. Louis Trib reports 4 more buses have arrived to move more children today. [/*]

St. Louis??? As in MO?? Really, got a link, or did you get if from the news or another poster? That area is like out my back door.
Or is there a St. Louis TX?

[cloe23]

Originally posted by lotty


You actually understood the words he was singing! Maybe I was still asleep yesterday morning.:punch: I might have to listen again, since I'm awake now. [/*]

Did you relisten?
I admit I am a very 'sensitive', 'meditating' kind a gal.
Not your average day bear:o

[juliekan]

Originally posted by cloe23


St. Louis??? As in MO?? Really, got a link, or did you get if from the news or another poster? That area is like out my back door.
Or is there a St. Louis TX? [/*]
sorry :punch: I meant Salt Lake
www.sltrib.com/news

[cloe23]

Originally posted by juliekan

sorry :punch: I meant Salt Lake
www.sltrib.com/news [/*]

Cool, but I did get pretty excited!
Thanks!

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid


From the link:

DNA sampling of YFZ Ranch residents began about 10 a.m. Tuesday, but an hour later, only three men, presumably polygamist sect members, had walked into the building and back out again.

ONLY THREE MEN!!! :cuss:

Is the the coward smiley>>>>>>>:chicken: :chicken:

ETA: I wonder if it is the three men who were interviewed for tv? They are they only ones to show their face so far. [/*]


I rest my case!
Sick and Wrong!

[lotty]

Originally posted by cloe23


Did you relisten?
I admit I am a very 'sensitive', 'meditating' kind a gal.
Not your average day bear:o [/*]

Yeah, I listened again. "Try it twice before you decide you don't like it." Ummmm, it's ok I guess.:shrug:

[Rainkiss]

Three men provided DNA so far... Well, those would be your "chosen" test cases, sent to see if they're going to be arrested. Must be something to be chosen to be a martyr.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Three men provided DNA so far... Well, those would be your "chosen" test cases, sent to see if they're going to be arrested. Must be something to be chosen to be a martyr. [/*]

IMO/JMO Can you imagine? If I was one of the three to be chosen, I'd be bawling my eyes out. I'm such a wimp! They just sat there on tv, like it was a normal day. I have seen one other that wasn't with the three on CBS. He was on the Today Show with a bunch of moms. I golly now I'm confused. Hang on! Three were swabbed right? Hmmmmm! I think my head is going to explode.hammer

[duncan]

Three men showed up ??? I did not think any would give up a DNA sample, how old were they??? Could these be the 19/20 year olds married to one wife of a similar age???

[Carol25]

Originally posted by lotty
While many have wondered how a Mormon splinter sect financed its multimillion-dollar development near Eldorado, one man thinks he knows the answer.

Bruce Wisan, an officer for the sect's $100 million real estate trust, said he believes sect spiritual leader Warren Jeffs drained the trust to pay for the YFZ Ranch and improvements there now valued at $21 million altogether.
Subpoenas to see whether sect's $100M trust was drained to fund YFZ Ranch, improvements
By TRISH CHOATE, Staff writer

Wednesday, April 23, 2008
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/subpoenas-to-see-whether-sects-100m-trust-was-to/ [/*]
Great find, Lotty! I hope they investigate the other state FLDS leaders too. The money is probably being diverted to other members for the last three weeks. Once the have good investigators on this..we should hear a lot more. Don't believe them on anything!

Now, if the state sold the property, what could the state use it for? Put baseball fields out there, swimming pools, stables with horses, play equipment and keep it for another agency for abused children?

The "temple" could be used for parenting classes and classes on child development for the community (especially parents who are deemed "risky". Just some thoughts.

[Details]

Three men - yeah, they're either the rare case where all their wives were of adult age, or martyr test cases. Only 3 men felt like they could take the test - all the others had reason to be concerned for what the test would find. That says a lot.

If they hadn't been molesting underage girls, they'd have no reason at all to avoid the test. While polygamy is illegal, having kids with women you aren't married to is not. So they have nothing to fear from the test - unless they have been molesting little girls, having children from little girls.

[lotty]

Originally posted by duncan
Three men showed up ??? I did not think any would give up a DNA sample, how old were they??? Could these be the 19/20 year olds married to one wife of a similar age??? [/*]

I know I read yesterday, one man showed up to be swabbed, who did not live at Eldorado, claims his three sons lived on the compound. No longer a member of the FLDS, he did however say that (paraphrasing...link is on the first page of 4/22) God's law comes before the state's law. So......?IMO/JMO:confused:

[juliekan]

Originally posted by duncan
Three men showed up ??? I did not think any would give up a DNA sample, how old were they??? Could these be the 19/20 year olds married to one wife of a similar age??? [/*]

www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695273101,00.html

FLDS members continue to "trickle in" today for DNA testing. Doesn't say whether men or women. Texas Attorney General's spokeswoman Janece Rolfe states "The court order is clear that being found in contempt of court could be a consequence." States that they could be subject to a fine or jail time.

If they can find them....:chicken:

[juliekan]

San Angelo reporting a "trickle" of MEN and women coming in for DNA testing.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Carol25

Great find, Lotty! I hope they investigate the other state FLDS leaders too. The money is probably being diverted to other members for the last three weeks. Once the have good investigators on this..we should hear a lot more. Don't believe them on anything!

Now, if the state sold the property, what could the state use it for? Put baseball fields out there, swimming pools, stables with horses, play equipment and keep it for another agency for abused children?

The "temple" could be used for parenting classes and classes on child development for the community (especially parents who are deemed "risky". Just some thoughts. [/*]

My ignorance is going to start showing. I don't know enough about the Rico statute, is this an option for the Feds?

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by duncan
Three men showed up ??? I did not think any would give up a DNA sample, how old were they??? Could these be the 19/20 year olds married to one wife of a similar age??? [/*]

One of the men that showed up is Rulen, the not so bright guy that sat in the middle of the three men who were interviewed on tv. My guess is the other two men are the ones that sat on either side of Rulen.

My second guess is these are the only men on the compound who have NOT married or impregnated an underage girl.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by juliekan

sorry :punch: I meant Salt Lake
www.sltrib.com/news [/*]
Wow! Could theere be something happening...finally?
Then again, there's always Orrin Hatch...."I'll do something when I see there really is abuse" he said before the Warren Jeff's trial...

Same link as above..Harry Reid asks Justice Dept to open federal investigations:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9027768

WooHoo! :D

[Carol25]

Just on Fox News...another call for help has been received by authorities from the Hilldale Utah compound. Investigation to follow......

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Carol25

Wow! Could theere be something happening...finally?
Then again, there's always Orrin Hatch...."I'll do something when I see there really is abuse" he said before the Warren Jeff's trial...

Same link as above..Harry Reid asks Justice Dept to open federal investigations:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9027768

WooHoo! :D [/*]

Yeah, let's see Orin defend them now.

I said it upthread, I hope these politicians suffer the consequences for turning a blind eye all these years.

IMO, their word no longer has value (unless you are a polygamist). Texas has shamed each and every one of them.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Carol25
Just on Fox News...another call for help has been received by authorities from the Hilldale Utah compound. Investigation to follow...... [/*]

It only takes one. I think Elissa Wall started the ball rolling when she courageously stepped up and testified against Warren Jeffs.

If these kids can get the news that there is help for them, I hope they flood the crisis hotlines. I'm sure the raid in Texas is all the talk on he other compounds. I bet people are scrambling like crazy to cover their tracks. That is when they will make mistakes.

Hopefully these kids now know they can be protected and there isn't one darn thing the elders or prophets can do to prevent them from being protected.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by KatyDid


One of the men that showed up is Rulen, the not so bright guy that sat in the middle of the three men who were interviewed on tv. My guess is the other two men are the ones that sat on either side of Rulen.

My second guess is these are the only men on the compound who have NOT married or impregnated an underage girl. [/*]
Hey Katy!:seeya: The mere fact that only three showed up speaks volumes! Wish they would be open to extensive questioning. Especially Rulen.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Carol25
Just on Fox News...another call for help has been received by authorities from the Hilldale Utah compound. Investigation to follow...... [/*]

What?

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Carol25

Hey Katy!:seeya: The mere fact that only three showed up speaks volumes! Wish they would be open to extensive questioning. Especially Rulen. [/*]

Hiya Carol :seeya:

I wish they could be questioned like that too. I think for now they have to stay within the boundaries of the custody matters.

I don't think Rulen knows too much any way. He is one of those that walks with his head down all the time. He only hears what the FLDS wants him to hear.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by KatyDid


It only takes one. I think Elissa Wall started the ball rolling when she courageously stepped up and testified against Warren Jeffs.

If these kids can get the news that there is help for them, I hope they flood the crisis hotlines. I'm sure the raid in Texas is all the talk on he other compounds. I bet people are scrambling like crazy to cover their tracks. That is when they will make mistakes.

Hopefully these kids now know they can be protected and there isn't one darn thing the elders or prophets can do to prevent them from being protected. [/*]
I was thinking that they were not getting the news, but I bet they are. The men are probably "preparing" them for a possible raid and what to say and do when it comes.

So, some girls and women who are not happy may be waiting for their chance or taking the initiative to make that call. Wouldn't that be great? Utah of all places! I hope outside LE comes in. So many LE (and judges) are in the FLDS around there, it will be rough!
didn't I read even the Canadian Royal Mounted Police got involved in the Texas crisis? Maybe that was for deep background info. Don't know.

[Rainkiss]

Or some people are thinking that it's worth the risk of being arrested to make a false report. :(

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Carol25

I was thinking that they were not getting the news, but I bet they are. The men are probably "preparing" them for a possible raid and what to say and do when it comes.

So, some girls and women who are not happy may be waiting for their chance or taking the initiative to make that call. Wouldn't that be great? Utah of all places! I hope outside LE comes in. So many LE (and judges) are in the FLDS around there, it will be rough! [/*]

:D oh, I don't know, the whole world is watching now. I think if the authorities tried to shine it on again, they might be asked to recuse themselves. They are too close the very thing that caused the problem.

Wouldn't I LOVE to see that happen. The authorities who have for all these years swept this abuse under the rug getting hammered and shamed in the public forum. hammer

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Or some people are thinking that it's worth the risk of being arrested to make a false report. :( [/*]
Of course, the investigation could be the origin of that call...

[Carol25]

Originally posted by KatyDid


:D oh, I don't know, the whole world is watching now. I think if the authorities tried to shine it on again, they might be asked to recuse themselves. They are too close the very thing that caused the problem.

Wouldn't I LOVE to see that happen. The authorities who have for all these years swept this abuse under the rug getting hammered and shamed in the public forum. hammer [/*]
Yes! Yes! Yes! Let them try now! Have they ever heard of dereliction of duty?

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Or some people are thinking that it's worth the risk of being arrested to make a false report. :( [/*]

False report or not, it gives LE the authority to get a search warrant and take action, just like what they did in Texas.

Hilldale is where Elissa was from when she was forced to marry her cousin. I hope these girls find their voice and when they do, find their personal power to get out.

:seeya:

[Details]

Sometimes it just takes a little opening to start the flood. I remember this happening with the Catholic priest scandal - for so many decades it was hidden, then a few came out, then a few more, then all the sudden all the people who had been shamed to silence finally felt they could speak.

I'd like to see outside LE too. Many Mormons I've heard from don't like the FLDS, hate that they are mixed up, using a similar name, want to separate themselves from the FLDS in the media. But some defend the FLDS, are quite ready to see this as religious persecution, and the gov't coming for the Mormons next. Some seem to be quite sympathetic (Hatch) and almost like they're wannabe members. Only takes a few of those in the LE to damage the investigation.



IIRC, Hillsdale is also where Elisa found LE pretty much totally in the FLDS pocket - had she run, they'd return her, not be interested in any criminal actions against her.

[juliekan]

www.cultnews.com/?p=2297

New York Times recommend fugitive sex offender as resource about polygamists?? Rick Ross finds it "ironic" that the man supplying info about polygamists is a man who molested his 13 yo niece.

[Details]

There's a former pedophile who gives LE and media and such information about what drives pedophiles too. Takes one to know one I guess. And for someone actually remorseful about what they did, probably one of the better things they can do.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Details
Sometimes it just takes a little opening to start the flood. I remember this happening with the Catholic priest scandal - for so many decades it was hidden, then a few came out, then a few more, then all the sudden all the people who had been shamed to silence finally felt they could speak.

I'd like to see outside LE too. Many Mormons I've heard from don't like the FLDS, hate that they are mixed up, using a similar name, want to separate themselves from the FLDS in the media. But some defend the FLDS, are quite ready to see this as religious persecution, and the gov't coming for the Mormons next. Some seem to be quite sympathetic (Hatch) and almost like they're wannabe members. Only takes a few of those in the LE to damage the investigation.



IIRC, Hillsdale is also where Elisa found LE pretty much totally in the FLDS pocket - had she run, they'd return her, not be interested in any criminal actions against her. [/*]
I like your comparison to the priest scandal. I hope you are right. I think if this continues to get high media attention it will be hard for Hatch et al to stop it. Wish the election would get out of the way! LOL :)

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Carol25

I like your comparison to the priest scandal. I hope you are right. I think if this continues to get high media attention it will be hard for Hatch et al to stop it. Wish the election would get out of the way! LOL :) [/*]
And you know the world is waiting to see how this all plays out...bad outcome and no one else will want to try...:chicken:

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Carol25

Yes! Yes! Yes! Let them try now! Have they ever heard of dereliction of duty? [/*]

:D if not, they may soon.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by KatyDid

One of the men that showed up is Rulen, the not so bright guy that sat in the middle of the three men who were interviewed on tv.
My guess is the other two men are the ones that sat on either side of Rulen.

My second guess is these are the only men on the

compound who have NOT married or impregnated an

underage girl. [/*]

BINGO!...
Are all these people from this same compound coming for the DNA or are some from other compounds, also?

99.9% of the time IF someone LIES or HIDES they have something to hide....and it has nothing to do with religion or the teachings of the bible.....jmo

[juliekan]

Former TruTV host Star Jones files for divorce.
Sorry O/T

[Carol25]

Originally posted by juliekan

And you know the world is waiting to see how this all plays out...bad outcome and no one else will want to try...:chicken: [/*]
Let's hope Texas has thought out this properly and can be used as the playbook. So far the State is winning. One Supreme Court ruling today in their favor.

I wonder if that informant knows where where those "hiding houses" are. May have to find those men.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Devotion


BINGO!...
Are all these people from this same compound coming for the DNA or are some from other compounds, also?

99.9% of the time IF someone LIES or HIDES they have something to hide....and it has nothing to do with religion or the teachings of the bible.....jmo [/*]
Considering that Jeffs hand-picked these people and moved them to Texas, I would bet there are men from other compounds who fathered some of these children. The court order does not cover that though

[cloe23]

Originally posted by juliekan
Former TruTV host Star Jones files for divorce.
Sorry O/T [/*]

TY, I didnt even know she was married.
I may file next if I dont possission of the good tv.
Keep watching, LOL:)

[juliekan]

Originally posted by cloe23


TY, I didnt even know she was married.
I may file next if I dont possission of the good tv.
Keep watching, LOL:) [/*]
May need to :punch: someone!

:lol:

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Details
Sometimes it just takes a little opening to start the flood. I remember this happening with the Catholic priest scandal - for so many decades it was hidden, then a few came out, then a few more, then all the sudden all the people who had been shamed to silence finally felt they could speak.

I'd like to see outside LE too. Many Mormons I've heard from don't like the FLDS, hate that they are mixed up, using a similar name, want to separate themselves from the FLDS in the media. But some defend the FLDS, are quite ready to see this as religious persecution, and the gov't coming for the Mormons next. Some seem to be quite sympathetic (Hatch) and almost like they're wannabe members. Only takes a few of those in the LE to damage the investigation.



IIRC, Hillsdale is also where Elisa found LE pretty much totally in the FLDS pocket - had she run, they'd return her, not be interested in any criminal actions against her. [/*]


Excellent point! TY

[Carol25]

Originally posted by cloe23


TY, I didnt even know she was married.
I may file next if I dont possission of the good tv.
Keep watching, LOL:) [/*]
Cloe, never heard anything about the location of Sarah again. Do you think it was an accidental leak and they are hiding her as a secret witness somewhere? Just a thought.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Don't kid yourself. There are a handful of people here who, no matter what real, live, legitimate, validated evidence is presented, will claim 'til he!! freezes over that Texas authorities should've left that nasty bunch of mothers and 'uncles' alone to continue their culture of child abuse, 'bleeding the beast,' and 'lying for the lord.' [/*]


Tell me your not serious?????
Please..................................

:confused:

[Carol25]

When they listed evidence, they found school records that listed mother and father. Could the court order DNA from those men? But of course, everyone would deny being that person, wouldn't they? Too bad they don't have to physically show up to get IRS rebate checks.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Carol25

Cloe, never heard anything about the location of Sarah again. Do you think it was an accidental leak and they are hiding her as a secret witness somewhere? Just a thought. [/*]

What you said or dead...:rose:
I vote dead.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by cloe23


What you said or dead...:rose:
I vote dead. [/*]
Oh, I pray not.:(

[Ionmhainn]

This is a very sad and strange case. The women seem to be trying to garner public sympathy, but they won't succeed, imo, if they only answer the convenient questions. Their answers are very calculated, imo...leading me to believe that they know very well that they have been breaking the law. These women are just as guilty as the men if they turned a blind eye. Enablers at the very least. They have a very strange "affect"...almost seem sedated or something? The men too.

"What's your last name" is a simple question...as is "what's your husband's name?"

I find myself staring at them and wondering how on earth this has been allowed to go on all this time. They can bleat about religious freedom all they like, but this case is about breaking the law. Not registering births, marrying off young girls, polygamy...goodness only knows what else! If you know enough to hide it, you know it's wrong, IMO.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by cloe23


What you said or dead...:rose:
I vote dead. [/*]

OH CRAP?

www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9028130

Rozita Swinton's phone number connected to call to crisis center in Texas

I guess "Sarah" is OK?

[juliekan]

Also reported in www.deseretnews.com (clearer article)

[cloe23]

Originally posted by cloe23


What you said or dead...:rose:

I vote dead. [/*]

Ok now I have goose bumps...
I retract my statement that Sarah is dead. She is being held indeed. I know for a fact that she was found ... Many of us do... imo
That is my theroy and I am sticking too it. Even tho I am not close enough to the case to really have an opinion/idea whats up with the location of Sarah, ya know?

But............. On TRUTV I did hear a report from the cnn reporter in TX that the identity of Sarah has been determined. Then it was reported later that they have found many Sarah's like (4) of them.

So, I consider coverup.
Exellent point, TY

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Ionmhainn
This is a very sad and strange case. The women seem to be trying to garner public sympathy, but they won't succeed, imo, if they only answer the convenient questions. Their answers are very calculated, imo...leading me to believe that they know very well that they have been breaking the law. These women are just as guilty as the men if they turned a blind eye. Enablers at the very least. They have a very strange "affect"...almost seem sedated or something? The men too.

"What's your last name" is a simple question...as is "what's your husband's name?"

I find myself staring at them and wondering how on earth this has been allowed to go on all this time. They can bleat about religious freedom all they like, but this case is about breaking the law. Not registering births, marrying off young girls, polygamy...goodness only knows what else! If you know enough to hide it, you know it's wrong, IMO. [/*]

Perhaps it is a perpetual hypnotic state from listening to all those 'lesson' tapes from their prophet Warren Jeffs.

ITA about the women. The one named Marilyn who did the interview with the other two women...you could tell she was uncomfortable lying for the lord. The older woman had to constantly step in and finish her lies.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Ionmhainn
This is a very sad and strange case. The women seem to be trying to garner public sympathy, but they won't succeed, imo, if they only answer the convenient questions. Their answers are very calculated, imo...leading me to believe that they know very well that they have been breaking the law. These women are just as guilty as the men if they turned a blind eye. Enablers at the very least. They have a very strange "affect"...almost seem sedated or something? The men too.

"What's your last name" is a simple question...as is "what's your husband's name?"

I find myself staring at them and wondering how on earth this has been allowed to go on all this time. They can bleat about religious freedom all they like, but this case is about breaking the law. Not registering births, marrying off young girls, polygamy...goodness only knows what else! If you know enough to hide it, you know it's wrong, IMO. [/*]
I respectfully disagree, Ionmhainn, I don't think these women knew any better because they didn't know anything but what they were taught by the FLDS. They certainly weren't taught the Constitution or anything about individual rights or protections. Nor were they ever taught to think. We don't even know the average IQ of these women.
The only thing I wonder about is now they are being told to lie. Is that connecting with any of them? Is any of them wondering about that? Do they have enough intellect and critical thinking skills to deduce that something they are doing must be wrong?

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Perhaps it is a perpetual hypnotic state from listening to all those 'lesson' tapes from their prophet Warren Jeffs.

[/*]
respectfully snipped..............

BINGO
My thoughts exactally!:seeya:

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by juliekan
Also reported in www.deseretnews.com (clearer article) [/*]

Well, she isn't in custody any longer. I hope she isn't the person who made this latest call reported as coming from the compound in Hilldale.

I can't believe they haven't given this nut a competency evaluation and put her in medical custody.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by cloe23


Ok now I have goose bumps...
I retract my statement that Sarah is dead. She is being held indeed. I know for a fact that she was found ... Many of us do... imo
That is my theroy and I am sticking too it. Even tho I am not close enough to the case to really have an opinion/idea whats up with the location of Sarah, ya know?

But............. On TRUTV I did hear a report from the cnn reporter in TX that the identity of Sarah has been determined. Then it was reported later that they have found many Sarah's like (4) of them.

So, I consider coverup.
Exellent point, TY [/*]
You're sweet, Cloe! :D (Not as in "stay sweet!") I think that could be a great strategy. Can you imagine when all of the FLDS attorneys get up there proclaiming there's no abuse and saying "prove it!" and here come Sarah, "Saying I will prove it!

[juliekan]

Originally posted by juliekan


OH CRAP?

www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9028130

Rozita Swinton's phone number connected to call to crisis center in Texas

I guess "Sarah" is OK? [/*]

[juliekan]

Originally posted by juliekan
Also reported in www.deseretnews.com (clearer article) [/*]

[Carol25]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Well, she isn't in custody any longer. I hope she isn't the person who made this latest call reported as coming from the compound in Hilldale.

I can't believe they haven't given this nut a competency evaluation and put her in medical custody. [/*]
Oh Geez. Take the phones away from this woman! You're right. She should be held until this is over. Maybe they have a video tape in her home so they can see if she is on the phone and it's taping her. :cool:

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Well, she isn't in custody any longer. I hope she isn't the person who made this latest call reported as coming from the compound in Hilldale.

I can't believe they haven't given this nut a competency evaluation and put her in medical custody. [/*]

***********
I guess I am missing something big, why wouldnt the state of TX verify the phone number proir to entering the compound???
Maybe the phone used once belonged to her and she got rid of it?(sold it or it was stold from her?)
I can not see any state barging in anywhere without, evidence that has been backed up and an order written by a judge.
JMO:confused:

[juliekan]

Originally posted by cloe23


***********
I guess I am missing something big, why wouldnt the state of TX verify the phone number proir to entering the compound???
Maybe the phone used once belonged to her and she got rid of it?(sold it or it was stold from her?)
I can not see any state barging in anywhere without, evidence that has been backed up and an order written by a judge.
JMO:confused: [/*]
The Supreme Court ruled today that if you go into somewhere after a complaint is filed, and find something else wrong, LE may proceed to address whatever ELSE they found that was wrong.

[spydernweb2006]

Originally posted by Ionmhainn
This is a very sad and strange case. The women seem to be trying to garner public sympathy, but they won't succeed, imo, if they only answer the convenient questions. Their answers are very calculated, imo...leading me to believe that they know very well that they have been breaking the law. These women are just as guilty as the men if they turned a blind eye. Enablers at the very least. They have a very strange "affect"...almost seem sedated or something? The men too.

"What's your last name" is a simple question...as is "what's your husband's name?"

I find myself staring at them and wondering how on earth this has been allowed to go on all this time. They can bleat about religious freedom all they like, but this case is about breaking the law. Not registering births, marrying off young girls, polygamy...goodness only knows what else! If you know enough to hide it, you know it's wrong, IMO. [/*]

I truly believe the FDLS thought ok we can just media blitz the Public again like we did in 1953 and everyone will be sooo ashamed that the state took babies away from "mommies" that they will over look our crimes against kids. Well FDLS, WAKE UP its 2008 and atleast here in Texas, we aren't gonna allow you to abuse kids as long as we have a say. Cry boohoo all you want to the media, because as long as ONE CHILD is abused we will take action. If you want your kids back, do what the court asks and follow the law. Noone wants the kids away from their families IF the families are not abusive.

The barn door is wide open now and the hidden horse is out. I honestly believe Utah and AZ should also follow TX in securing the abused kids of the FDLS and any corruption of the Government by the FDLS.


JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[juliekan]

Originally posted by spydernweb2006
This should end the claims of illegal search on the FLDS Compound:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_search;_ylt=AsS9jPvuBWSgfj0EcUsIi7es0NUE

The Supreme Court just ruled it does not matter at all if what they went in for if they see/saw illegal activity. While I pray IF there is/was a Sarah they find her and help her it now legally has no bearing on the children being removed by CPS for abuse.

According to the noon news here in the DFW area there are bus loads of kids on their way here to be cared for until the DNA comes back and it can be determined who belongs to who and what legal items have to occur before the Parents can reclaim their kids. They are going to be kept for CPS by the Catholic Charities Shelters according to the news. CC has not confirmed. This was on WFAA, if anyone wants to look it up, it should be on their website.

Here is the video of the noon news regarding that:

http://www.wfaa.com/video/index.html?nvid=238490


JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

** edited to fix a spelling error [/*]

Great explanation. Thanks:)

[Carol25]

Originally posted by cloe23


***********
I guess I am missing something big, why wouldnt the state of TX verify the phone number proir to entering the compound???
Maybe the phone used once belonged to her and she got rid of it?(sold it or it was stold from her?)
I can not see any state barging in anywhere without, evidence that has been backed up and an order written by a judge.
JMO:confused: [/*]
And it took them something like 3 days to go in.... Maybe a cell phone..one that you can buy prepaid?

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by cloe23


***********
I guess I am missing something big, why wouldnt the state of TX verify the phone number proir to entering the compound???
Maybe the phone used once belonged to her and she got rid of it?(sold it or it was stold from her?)
I can not see any state barging in anywhere without, evidence that has been backed up and an order written by a judge.
JMO:confused: [/*]

If it's one of those prepaid cell phones, they wouldn't have a name attached to a number. They'd have to find the phone to connect the two. No way of telling it didn't belong to someone at the ranch until they actually had the phone in their hands.

Again, Just my humble opinion, but if I'm calling for help, please, come before taking the trouble to trace the call!

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Carol25

You're sweet, Cloe! :D (Not as in "stay sweet!") I think that could be a great strategy. Can you imagine when all of the FLDS attorneys get up there proclaiming there's no abuse and saying "prove it!" and here come Sarah, "Saying I will prove it! [/*]

No way Im I sweet, if u ask my hubbie. But if you asked my kids they would say I was sweet.
And Yes speaking of sweet, It would be the bomb if Sarah was the key witness. I think one of the moust sickening thing is that her little sister was in the process of being sent to the compound! By there own parents. For the Love of G_ D!
I think these parents need to be up on charges as well.:cuss: And
as for FLDS attorneys where are these folks going to get there $$$ to hire one? Unless they worked on contengendency(sp?) fee.

[Ionmhainn]

Originally posted by Carol25

I respectfully disagree, Ionmhainn, I don't think these women knew any better because they didn't know anything but what they were taught by the FLDS. They certainly weren't taught the Constitution or anything about individual rights or protections. Nor were they ever taught to think. We don't even know the average IQ of these women.
The only thing I wonder about is now they are being told to lie. Is that connecting with any of them? Is any of them wondering about that? Do they have enough intellect and critical thinking skills to deduce that something they are doing must be wrong? [/*]

Carol, I'm not sure I buy that. They're certainly smart enough to avoid the questions put to them! We always see the same little group in interviews...hand picked, perhaps? Either way, ignorance has never been an acceptable defense, to my knowledge. If they didn't "know any better" that has certainly changed now. IMO

[duncan]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


But Carol ... these women were at some point adolescent girls forced to have sexual intercourse with much older men. Don't you think that no matter the level of indoctrination up to that point, something in the core of their beings told them that what was happening to them was wrong?

Every sexual abuse victim I've ever heard discuss the matter is or was so full of shame and self-loathing during the period of abuse ... where does that come from? Doesn't it come primarily from an instinctual reaction to being forced into sexual activity before they're ready, by men not of their choosing? Many sexual abuse victims don't at first know that it isn't the norm in every household, and yet they still feel the act as an invasion of their bodies and their souls.

My point is that if sexual abuse victims instinctively understand that there's something wrong about what's happened to them, then these mothers turning around and offering up their own daughters can't be defended - regardless of indoctrination.

Hope I'm making sense. :shrug: [/*]



I understand you and I agree, I think the women and children also endured physical abuse, any time now they may start talking about that. omo

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Carol25

And it took them something like 3 days to go in.... Maybe a cell phone..one that you can buy prepaid? [/*]

Cell phone or pre-paid cell phone they still make contact with a tower when the call is being made. Was the tower in colorado or TX.
I can not justify the state just barging in from a crank call.
They would have checked out the cell towers, if I ran the country!

I also know that if someone goes on vacation they can have their cell phone re-routed to another tower thus keeping the bill lower.

So who knows what kinda a phone was used.

Wasnt sarah's little sister and her parents from Colorado?

[Devotion]

Originally posted by Carol25

I respectfully disagree, Ionmhainn, I don't think these women knew any better because they didn't know anything but what they were taught by the FLDS.
They certainly weren't taught the Constitution

or anything about individual rights or protections.

Nor were they ever taught to think.

We don't even know the average IQ of these women.

The only thing I wonder about is HOW they are being told to LIE.

Is that connecting with any of them? Is any of them wondering about that?
Do they have enough intellect and critical thinking skills to deduce that something they are doing must be wrong? [/*]

Good Points! Just what were they taught?

Yes, it would be interesting to see what their IQ's are.
Especially the one who keeps saying she has a college degree.

Because they persist to LIE, leaves NO doubt they KNOW they have broken laws, and done wrong.

The elected officials non-actions over the years have lead them to think we're the dumb, naive ones, to be used.

What are these people being taught in school?
read, writing, arithmetic, history, current events, or how to lie and "con" the outside world ???....

I understand the women didn't know who the president of the US is? Yet they have cell phones and know how to apply for welfare, and medical care or does someone do the applying for them?

The children didn't know what crayons are... where has ALL that welfare money been going?

I believe they know more about the system than we think.
I saw a computer in their bedroom while the female was giving a tour of their house.......jmo

[johnielee333]

Originally posted by cloe23


No way Im I sweet, if u ask my hubbie. But if you asked my kids they would say I was sweet.
And Yes speaking of sweet, It would be the bomb if Sarah was the key witness. I think one of the moust sickening thing is that her little sister was in the process of being sent to the compound! By there own parents. For the Love of G_ D!
I think these parents need to be up on charges as well.:cuss: And
as for FLDS attorneys where are these folks going to get there $$$ to hire one? Unless they worked on contengendency(sp?) fee. [/*]

the FLDS are asking for donations on their website.
here's a link to their website.
http://www.captivefldschildren.org/
i believe they will use any money's donated to them for lawyers.
but i dont really think they need the money. i think the big wigs (the leaders) have alot of money but they want to bleed the the beast, meaning us the outsider's.

[dsmith]

1856
Brigham Young tells Mormon women who complain about polygamy that they have two weeks to “make up their minds whether they would stay with their husbands or be liberated at the General Conference.”

1862
The first federal law is passed outlawing polygamy

1886
LDS President John Taylor is allegedly visited by Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, who confirmed to him the righteousness of polygamy. Fundamentalists say Taylor asked five men to ensure the practice lives on.

1887
Edmunds-Tucker Act reiterates U.S. ban on polygamy with stiffer penalties.

1890
Contrary to the laws of the land
As Utah vies for statehood, LDS Church leader Wilford Woodruff issues "Official Declaration" suspending the practice of polygamy because it is contrary to the laws of the land

1904
LDS president issues polygamist warning

LDS President Joseph F. Smith's “Second Manifesto” states that any person solemnizing or entering a plural marriage will be excommunicated.

http://extras.sltrib.com/specials/polygamy/Timeline.asp

this is a good link with the timeline They do know that they are breaking the law of the land

[Carol25]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


But Carol ... these women were at some point adolescent girls forced to have sexual intercourse with much older men. Don't you think that no matter the level of indoctrination up to that point, something in the core of their beings told them that what was happening to them was wrong?

Every sexual abuse victim I've ever heard discuss the matter is or was so full of shame and self-loathing during the period of abuse ... where does that come from? Doesn't it come primarily from an instinctual reaction to being forced into sexual activity before they're ready, by men not of their choosing? Many sexual abuse victims don't at first know that it isn't the norm in every household, and yet they still feel the act as an invasion of their bodies and their souls.

My point is that if sexual abuse victims instinctively understand that there's something wrong about what's happened to them, then these mothers turning around and offering up their own daughters can't be defended - regardless of indoctrination.

Hope I'm making sense. :shrug: [/*]
Yes, GGW and Ionmhainn, you both make sense. Ignorance of the law is not a legal defense, that's for sure.
And i am not an expert on brainwashing, the Stockholm effect or indoctrination.
This could be some explanation from "The Stockholm effect" from Wikipedia:
Loyalty to a more powerful abuser — in spite of the danger that this loyalty puts the victim in — is common among victims of domestic abuse, battered partners and child abuse (dependent children). In many instances the victims choose to remain loyal to their abuser, and choose not to leave him or her, even when they are offered a safe placement in foster homes or safe houses. This unhealthy type of mental phenomenon is also known as Trauma-Bonding or Bonding-to-the-Perpetrator. This syndrome was described by psychoanalysts of the object relations theory school (see Fairbairn) as the phenomenon of psychological identification with the more powerful abuser. A variant of Stockholm Syndrome includes cases of abusive parents and abusive siblings in which the victim, even after entering adulthood, still justifies the family abuse.

Since we aren't schooled in the phenomena, it could just be that these people have been so brain washed that "individual instincts" are no longer trusted by the individual. Their self esteem is just so low that they don't depend upon those instincts, instead relying on the powerful individuals to guide them in what is right and wrong.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by johnielee333


the FLDS are asking for donations on their website.
here's a link to their website.
http://www.captivefldschildren.org/
i believe they will use any money's donated to them for lawyers.
but i dont really think they need the money. i think the big wigs (the leaders) have alot of money but they want to bleed the the beast, meaning us the outsider's. [/*]


And I thank Ya, Kindly!:)

Sposed the state of Texas well have a web site asking for donatations as well? They should. IMO

[Carol25]

I found this and I have to admit, I am literally weak after reading this. It's a must reading if you want to understand what happened to these people. I have to take a break.


FROM THE INSIDE OUT
about cult programming:

http://home.mchsi.com/~ftio/mc-trauma-bonding.htm

[cloe23]

Originally posted by dsmith
1856
Brigham Young tells Mormon women who complain about polygamy that they have two weeks to “make up their minds whether they would stay with their husbands or be liberated at the General Conference.”

1862
The first federal law is passed outlawing polygamy

1886
LDS President John Taylor is allegedly visited by Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, who confirmed to him the righteousness of polygamy. Fundamentalists say Taylor asked five men to ensure the practice lives on.

1887
Edmunds-Tucker Act reiterates U.S. ban on polygamy with stiffer penalties.

1890
Contrary to the laws of the land
As Utah vies for statehood, LDS Church leader Wilford Woodruff issues "Official Declaration" suspending the practice of polygamy because it is contrary to the laws of the land

1904
LDS president issues polygamist warning

LDS President Joseph F. Smith's “Second Manifesto” states that any person solemnizing or entering a plural marriage will be excommunicated.

http://extras.sltrib.com/specials/polygamy/Timeline.asp

this is a good link with the timeline They do know that they are breaking the law of the land [/*]


TY good read...
I was checking out polygamy on wikipedia yesterday and it got me thinking about how nieve I am in this word I live in....

*Polygamy= A man with more the one spouse(It didnt say if it was to be a man spouse or women spouse, so I will asumme that it makes no difference.

*polyandy = A women with more then one spouse again not saying if it has to be a man or women.

*Monogany = One spouse. Again I assume man to man or women to women. No difference.

Bigamy= A spouse having one spouse by law and several other's
not by law.
Again not saying if it is man to man or women to man or women to women.


I dont know im confused now after typing all that carp
barf

Sorry if confussing.:o

[duncan]

Originally posted by dsmith
1856
Brigham Young tells Mormon women who complain about polygamy that they have two weeks to “make up their minds whether they would stay with their husbands or be liberated at the General Conference.”

1862
The first federal law is passed outlawing polygamy

1886
LDS President John Taylor is allegedly visited by Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, who confirmed to him the righteousness of polygamy. Fundamentalists say Taylor asked five men to ensure the practice lives on.

1887
Edmunds-Tucker Act reiterates U.S. ban on polygamy with stiffer penalties.

1890
Contrary to the laws of the land
As Utah vies for statehood, LDS Church leader Wilford Woodruff issues "Official Declaration" suspending the practice of polygamy because it is contrary to the laws of the land

1904
LDS president issues polygamist warning

LDS President Joseph F. Smith's “Second Manifesto” states that any person solemnizing or entering a plural marriage will be excommunicated.

http://extras.sltrib.com/specials/polygamy/Timeline.asp

this is a good link with the timeline They do know that they are breaking the law of the land [/*]


1886 John Taylor is visited by Jesus Christ??? I am biting my tongue so hard.

[cloe23]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carol25
I found this and I have to admit, I am literally weak after reading this. It's a must reading if you want to understand what happened to these people. I have to take a break.


Wow I was a leary to read due too the warning , but heck I was born on a Saturday night and read carefully. (baby steps)
I can releate to it all. Im greatfull we have documentation to help with a suviviors recovery's.

Keeping in mind I am not a victim I am a student!
:)



Public record... edited spelling. LOL

[Ladyhawk]

I can't quit looking at the evidence list...I'm seeing item AD3 which is cassette tapes transferred to separate evidence list - CPS evidence. Then further down, there is 1 - sealed box containing cassette tapes.

What could be on those tapes? What made LE transfer them to CPS evidence...something written on the outside case? Did they listen to them?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
I can't quit looking at the evidence list...I'm seeing item AD3 which is cassette tapes transferred to separate evidence list - CPS evidence. Then further down, there is 1 - sealed box containing cassette tapes.

What could be on those tapes? What made LE transfer them to CPS evidence...something written on the outside case? Did they listen to them? [/*]
I heard that the women had tapes they could listen to in the evenings. They are sermons or talks by Warren Jeffs.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by Carol25

I heard that the women had tapes they could listen to in the evenings. They are sermons or talks by Warren Jeffs. [/*]

I wonder if it's anything like this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGqJIqe6LEE

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
I can't quit looking at the evidence list...I'm seeing item AD3 which is cassette tapes transferred to separate evidence list - CPS evidence. Then further down, there is 1 - sealed box containing cassette tapes.

What could be on those tapes? What made LE transfer them to CPS evidence...something written on the outside case? Did they listen to them? [/*]

Those tapes are volumes and volumes of 'lessons' taped by Warren Jeffs for the purpose of brainwashing. If you ever hear any of them, you will understand the brainwashing description. He speaks in a low hypnotic monotone voice. The girls listen to how they are to 'stay sweet' and be totally subserviant to their husbands so they can live in heaven for all eternity. Their husbands are the only way they can enter heaven.

:rolleyes: It's really sick!

[KatyDid]

Some excerpts from the tapes:

“You wake up each day yearning to please your husband…In your life are no secrets, but you keep his secrets.”

“If a woman rules over a man, both will lost the spirit of God…”

“The very nature of women is that their desire should be for the husband and to completely submit so that he should rule over you.”

http://stephensingular.com/Blog/archive/2007/10/05/Exceprt-From-Warren-Jeffs-Trial.aspx

[cloe23]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ladyhawk


I wonder if it's anything like this one


What a flipping pig! Was that him with a porn star in the first part of this tape? For the love of freedom!
VERY VERY hypnotic, imo.
I did not finsh the tape, I will not entertain his powers=persay?
nine(9) minutes long. This is the childrens entertainment, studies, education and PLAY TIME??? (I do not think so Tim)
That is all I need is another husband=Polgandy.

Not me no way am I going there!

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk


I wonder if it's anything like this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGqJIqe6LEE [/*]

That's the one Ladyhawk!!

I think that is lesson #7.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by johnielee333


the FLDS are asking for donations on their website.
here's a link to their website.
http://www.captivefldschildren.org/
i believe they will use any money's donated to them for lawyers.
but i dont really think they need the money. i think the big wigs (the leaders) have alot of money but they want to bleed the the beast, meaning us the outsider's. [/*]

By the way I went into this site and attemped to donate $ 0.00 dollars and cents. The sight is sooooooo busy It sent my puter spinning. Never got in.
Lots of LDS are donating, imo

edited by me - spelling/typing Public record.

[awareness]

Originally posted by dsmith
1856
Brigham Young tells Mormon women who complain about polygamy that they have two weeks to “make up their minds whether they would stay with their husbands or be liberated at the General Conference.”

1862
The first federal law is passed outlawing polygamy

1886
LDS President John Taylor is allegedly visited by Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, who confirmed to him the righteousness of polygamy. Fundamentalists say Taylor asked five men to ensure the practice lives on.

1887
Edmunds-Tucker Act reiterates U.S. ban on polygamy with stiffer penalties.

1890
Contrary to the laws of the land
As Utah vies for statehood, LDS Church leader Wilford Woodruff issues "Official Declaration" suspending the practice of polygamy because it is contrary to the laws of the land

1904
LDS president issues polygamist warning

LDS President Joseph F. Smith's “Second Manifesto” states that any person solemnizing or entering a plural marriage will be excommunicated.

http://extras.sltrib.com/specials/polygamy/Timeline.asp

this is a good link with the timeline They do know that they are breaking the law of the land [/*]

Nice post.

Id like to add that FDLS basically got its roots right when Woodruff issued the statement saying LDS had to comply with the law of the land. Woodruff's statement also didn't say he didn't disagree, or felt that Joseph Smith, Jr.'s "revelation" on polygamy (D&C 132) was incorrect - so in the eyes of many LDS at the time they saw the statement just being a tool to pacify the US Gov't. Also, polygamy in the mainstream LDS church did continue but underground for a while. At the time many LDS felt that Woodruff's statement went against everything Joseph Smith, Jr. taught them throughout the course of him finding the religion & starting the Mormon church.

JMO/IMO

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by cloe23


By the way I went into this site and attemped to donate $ 0.00 dollars and cents. The sight is sooooooo busy It sent my puter spinning. Never got in.
Lots of LDS are donating, imo

edited by me - spelling/typing Public record. [/*]

Whoa, somebody has done some work on the website since I last visited it. It can actually be navigated now.

I hope people will not give, but as you say cloe, the flds members will give.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
I can't quit looking at the evidence list...I'm seeing item AD3 which is cassette tapes transferred to separate evidence list - CPS evidence. Then further down, there is 1 - sealed box containing cassette tapes.

What could be on those tapes? What made LE transfer them to CPS evidence...something written on the outside case? Did they listen to them? [/*]

Ladyhawk, your signature line is great!:)
OT-Sorry:hat:

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Whoa, somebody has done some work on the website since I last visited it. It can actually be navigated now.

I hope people will not give, but as you say cloe, the flds members will give. [/*]

Go in there and attempt to donate. It wont happen as it is too busy at the moment. IMO The USA needs to set up a web site to asks for money.
Actually what a huge flipping sin of them to even ask. Greed??? HELLO, I love it when persons re-write by-laws. lol:biggrin:

not edited for spelling/typing errors.
Nope not gonna:D

[KatyDid]

Not sure if this has been posted on the daily yet.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9023233


Titled 'Cultural Competencies'
Workers' tipsheet on FLDS sparks outrage


A snippet:

Greg Cunningham, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, said authorities worked with several sources to gather information for the tipsheet.
Among those sources: three Utah women who traveled to Texas two days after the raid. Shannon Price, accompanied by two ex-sect members, said she came to Texas to provide "cultural competency" and advised investigators on such topics as how to ask questions about sexual abuse and clothing preferences of the FLDS.
With her were Elissa Wall, who was the key witness in Utah's criminal prosecution of FLDS president Warren S. Jeffs, and Carolyn Jessop, once a plural wife of the man who oversees the YFZ Ranch, which Texas raided on April 3.
Price said her comments were about "how you respect the population, not how you vilify it."



I'm glad to see Elissa helping with this ordeal. If anybody knows what it is like, that poor girl does. Bless her. :rose:

[walton]

Has anyone seen anything written about Wendell Neilson concerning this raid?

Seth Jeffs?

Guy Allred?

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by cloe23


Go in there and attempt to donate. It wont happen as it is too busy at the moment. IMO The USA needs to set up a web site to asks for money.
Actually what a huge flipping sin of them to even ask. Greed??? HELLO, I love it when persons re-write by-laws. lol:biggrin:

not edited for spelling/typing errors.
Nope not gonna:D [/*]

Yeah, they love to defy the laws of the land, but they sure aren't picky about taking money from just anybody and everybody. LOL!!

:tongue:

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by walton
Has anyone seen anything written about Wendell Neilson concerning this raid?

Seth Jeffs?

Guy Allred? [/*]

The only thing I've seen about Wendell is he will be the next prophet. The faithful are already hanging his picture on their walls.

I can do some searching.

hiya Walton :seeya:

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid
Some excerpts from the tapes:

“You wake up each day yearning to please your husband…In your life are no secrets, but you keep his secrets.”

“If a woman rules over a man, both will lost the spirit of God…”

“The very nature of women is that their desire should be for the husband and to completely submit so that he should rule over you.”

http://stephensingular.com/Blog/archive/2007/10/05/Exceprt-From-Warren-Jeffs-Trial.aspx [/*]


I must of been sick that day of school as I have no knowledge of the above behavior.

[KatyDid]

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8859787

Who was at the YFZ Ranch?


In a court filing released Tuesday, Texas investigators listed dozens of names of men, women and children believed to have been living at the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado.
One of the most prominent names on the list: Wendell Nielsen, a prominent businessman in the FLDS community and a counselor in the sect's religious hierarchy.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid


The only thing I've seen about Wendell is he will be the next prophet. The faithful are already hanging his picture on their walls.

I can do some searching.

hiya Walton :seeya: [/*]

I spose I should look into the new prophets.
but............. hello?
What about the comming of Christ? If they post his picture I bet you a egg mcmuffin that the wall of the compoud would tumble!


not edited for any spelling/typing errors:biggrin:

[KatyDid]

Mike Watkiss tried to talk with Seth Jeffs about the raid.

http://www.azfamily.com/yahoo_rss/stories/polygamy_local_news_040808_court-docs2.48fd8*7*.html

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by cloe23


I spose I should look into the new prophets.
but............. hello?
What about the comming of Christ? If they post his picture I bet you a egg mcmuffin that the wall of the compoud would tumble!


not edited for any spelling/typing errors:biggrin: [/*]

I think they think they ARE the coming of Christ. :chicken:

[Carol25]

Wouldn't you just love to be on the inside and doing research to find these people?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by KatyDid
Mike Watkiss tried to talk with Seth Jeffs about the raid.

http://www.azfamily.com/yahoo_rss/stories/polygamy_local_news_040808_court-docs2.48fd8*7*.html [/*]
Tried your link, Katy, but it says Page not found.:(

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Carol25
Wouldn't you just love to be on the inside and doing research to find these people? [/*]

:seeya: pick me!!!!

You know I have a fire in my belly about this ever since the Warren Jeffs trial.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid


I think they think they ARE the coming of Christ. :chicken: [/*]

Delusional? They, when did we recieve more then one ??
Or do they switch possissions?

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Carol25

Tried your link, Katy, but it says Page not found.:( [/*]

Oops, let me try that again.

http://www.azfamily.com/yahoo_rss/stories/polygamy_local_news_040808_court-docs2.48fd8*7*.html

RATS~~~I can't get it to work!!!

[Devotion]

1862
The first federal law is passed outlawing polygamy.

1879
The U.S. Supreme Court upholds a guilty verdict in Utah territorial court against polygamist George Reynolds, Brigham Young's personal secretary. The case was meant as a challenge to federal anti-polygamy laws.

1886
LDS President John Taylor is allegedly visited by Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, who confirmed to him the righteousness of polygamy. Fundamentalists say Taylor asked five men to ensure the practice lives on.

1890
Contrary to the laws of the land

As Utah vies for statehood, LDS Church leader Wilford Woodruff issues "Official Declaration" suspending the practice of polygamy because it is contrary to the laws of the land..

LDS President Joseph F. Smith's “Second Manifesto” states that any person solemnizing or entering a plural marriage will be excommunicated.

1912
Lorin C. Woolley, in a story told about a meeting with Taylor in the Woolley home,

confirms LDS president’s account of a VISION.


WOW...seeing visions or hearing voices? Hmmmm!
How do you confirm someone saw a vision?

Isn't there several mental disorders that cause something like this?

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Many of the pedophiles, sadist and murders in our prisons say they are innocent because they are "jesus","or the voices made them do it".....jmo

[KatyDid]

http://www.azfamily.com/video/localnews-index.html?nvid=234337

one more time.
i went to a different link.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by cloe23


Delusional? They, when did we recieve more then one ??
Or do they switch possissions? [/*]

:D they have prophets in waiting. since jeffs is in prison, the next prophet may be wendell neilsen.

[LLaFren]

Hey guys...:seeya: just got off work, gonna go see what I missed today...

[cloe23]

Originally posted by LLaFren
Hey guys...:seeya: just got off work, gonna go see what I missed today... [/*]

Hi, Welcome home. Read the posts and most inportant down or upload the links. You will figure our what is going on from that.
:D

[Shell0724]

Originally posted by Ionmhainn


Carol, I'm not sure I buy that. They're certainly smart enough to avoid the questions put to them! We always see the same little group in interviews...hand picked, perhaps? Either way, ignorance has never been an acceptable defense, to my knowledge. If they didn't "know any better" that has certainly changed now. IMO [/*]

These people are not as naive as they like to portray themselves. I think it was on Greta Van Susteren's show that allowed cameras inside the compound's living quarters. and there were state of the art notebooks amongst the quaint furnishings. They seem to want to portray themselves like the humble Mennonite/Amish people, but, they are not totally cut off from the society they condemn. They may even be posting.
They think they're holier than everyone else because they dress in hideous clothing and lose their virginity at the onset of menstruation or before. They are not stupid or alienated from right and wrong. imo

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid
http://www.azfamily.com/video/localnews-index.html?nvid=234337

one more time.
i went to a different link. [/*]

TY for the link! The reporter Mike Watkiss reported from tx social services workers that they are dealing with children from a different planet. How come did TX ignore them for soooooooo long?????

As for the convicted felon
Seth, caught, smugelling money $15000,00 dollars to Warren the guilty jeffs is not politcally correct to be the spokes person for the sect, dumb carps! He was surronded by six women from the sect? I am sorry LDS but not gonna get this to go in your behalf.
Spose its Armageddon(sp?)????:flamemad:

Not edited for spelling/typeos Public record

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Shell0724


These people are not as naive as they like to portray themselves. I think it was on Greta Van Susteren's show that allowed cameras inside the compound's living quarters. and there were state of the art notebooks amongst the quaint furnishings. They seem to want to portray themselves like the humble Mennonite/Amish people, but, they are not totally cut off from the society they condemn. They may even be posting.
They think they're holier than everyone else because they dress in hideous clothing and lose their virginity at the onset of menstruation or before. They are not stupid or alienated from right and wrong. imo [/*]

agree!

[Details]

On the question of why the police didn't trace the phone call - the phone call was not made to the police. It was made to a shelter. They won't have automatic phone tracing, at the most they might have caller ID, or might not have it to protect the anonymity of the women who call - and a caller ID just gives a phone number - if that's a cell phone, the area code is meaningless. They took notes about the caller, then contacted the police.

[Details]

These poor kids sound so traumatized - I was wrong! :rolleyes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/23/national/main4037916.shtml
The children eagerly waved and smiled at television cameras, even as attorneys for the children complained they were not warned their clients would be moved so quickly.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Details
These poor kids sound so traumatized - I was wrong! :rolleyes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/23/national/main4037916.shtml
[/*]

I saw some of the pictures taken of the kids through the bus windows. They were laughing and looking happy. :shrug:

Hey Details, thanks for keeping them straight over there, StoneFox. ;)

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Shell0724


These people are not as naive as they like to portray themselves. I think it was on Greta Van Susteren's show that allowed cameras inside the compound's living quarters. and there were state of the art notebooks amongst the quaint furnishings. They seem to want to portray themselves like the humble Mennonite/Amish people, but, they are not totally cut off from the society they condemn. They may even be posting.
They think they're holier than everyone else because they dress in hideous clothing and lose their virginity at the onset of menstruation or before. They are not stupid or alienated from right and wrong. imo [/*]

I vote for IQ testing. They are only smart in the areas that they have been given rights too, imo.
I bet a buck that if a child got caught on the puter they would get their *** kicked!
Put them in the real world and they will require are assistance, and we as americans will go out of our way too allow them to fit in. In the future I believe that is what we will want!:patriot:

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Details
On the question of why the police didn't trace the phone call - the phone call was not made to the police. It was made to a shelter. They won't have automatic phone tracing, at the most they might have caller ID, or might not have it to protect the anonymity of the women who call - and a caller ID just gives a phone number - if that's a cell phone, the area code is meaningless. They took notes about the caller, then contacted the police. [/*]

I mean no disrespect but... as for anonymity that goes down the drain as soon as they the shelter makes a statment to the court system, under oth. I saw that document and Im sure you did as well.
Once abuse of others is being investagated persons in that kind of safehome will without second thought spill their guts.
Furthermore.... they do not take an oth like our docs and lawyers do. They are not legally bond to stay silent. They are required by law to report any ongoing abuse. Kinda like a ER room is required to report child abuse, gun shot wound and stabbing.

[Thing1]

Originally posted by walton
Has anyone seen anything written about Wendell Neilson concerning this raid?

Seth Jeffs?

Guy Allred? [/*]

One of Wendell Nielsen's wives testified at the 14 day hearing. Nothing about him specifically other than the fact that they were married and have a child in custody.

[juliekan]

I couldn't get any links to work, but just google Wendell Nielsen if you want info...one article said he had repealed some of the severe restrictions and sited seeing a FLDS guy reading the news paper and (for all you animal lovers like me), noted that there were dogs running around again.

Dogs :beer:

[lotty]

DNA is completely necessary! IMO/JMO

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/archives/2006_05_01_archive.htm
Friday, May 12, 2006
Count off!
Doing a family count in polygamist circles is a challenge.

For one thing, the sheer number of children fathered by some practioners is astounding.

John Daniel Kingston of the Salt Lake-based Kingston group has, according to court documents, at least 110 children from 14 wives. Rulon Jeffs, past prophet of the FLDS church, is said to have had around 65 children. According to the online encyclopedia Wikipedia, he had more than 60 children -- though it does not provide a source for these numbers -- and 22 wives.

But late in his life, when it was believed he was going to be renewed and grow younger as he aged to 350, he was spiritually married to dozens of young women. Many were later married to his son, Warren Jeffs, after his death.

And because of the necessary secrecy that surrounds polygamy, driven by its illegal status, even those on the inside may not know the husband and father of one woman or children. At least, that has been my experience in talking to members of other polygamous groups as well as former FLDS members.

So, for instance, trying to find out the exact number of brothers and sisters Warren Jeffs has is more complicated than it might seem.

One half brother, an ex-FLDS member, put the total at 65 and said there were slightly more girls than boys in the family. But how many of each -- he couldn't say.

Likewise, any one who is currently putting a figure to how many wives and children Warren Jeffs has is only guessing. On one cable news show I heard two different figures over the course of an hour. One host said 50. Another said 60.

And there's the problem. No one knows and most of those purporting to know actually haven't had anything to do with Warren or the FLDS in years.

I have tried to pin it down in the past, too. I felt comfortable two years ago going with "40 wives" based on numerous interviews that seemed to confirm that number. Today, I am less willing to do that because it is so clear no one knows.

And the family math doesn't add up. Everyone seems to peg the count of his children at 100. But if he has 50 wives, that is only two children per woman -- obviously wrong since many women in the FLDS community have 8 or more children. It is not uncommon to hear of a woman who had as many as 18 children.

Bottom line: There is no way to know precisely how many wives and children Warren Jeffs has. The only thing you can count on is that he has a lot of both.

[Shell0724]

Originally posted by cloe23


I mean no disrespect but... as for anonymity that goes down the drain as soon as they the shelter makes a statment to the court system, under oth. I saw that document and Im sure you did as well.
Once abuse of others is being investagated persons in that kind of safehome will without second thought spill their guts.
Furthermore.... they do not take an oth like our docs and lawyers do. They are not legally bond to stay silent. They are required by law to report any ongoing abuse. Kinda like a ER room is required to report child abuse, gun shot wound and stabbing. [/*]

:beer: :beer: :beer: Spot on!

[FoxySly]

Originally posted by Shell0724
They think they're holier than everyone else because they dress in hideous clothing and lose their virginity at the onset of menstruation or before. They are not stupid or alienated from right and wrong. imo [/*]

~Snip

Oh my!!! You believe these little girls had the choice to "lose their virginity at the onset of menstruation or before." ???

Sly

[Shell0724]

Originally posted by FoxySly


~Snip

Oh my!!! You believe these little girls had the choice to "lose their virginity at the onset of menstruation or before." ???

Sly [/*]

No, of course not. But, once they reached adulthood, they had the choice to raise their daughters free from that trauma, but, instead decided to wear their own rapes and abuse as badges of holiness, and call it a ritual of the righteous. It's particularly offensive since they experienced this themselves, but, still decide to continue the tradition of rape and horror on the next innocent generation. JMO of course.

It reminds me of the scourge of female genital mutilation which still exists in parts of the world. It isn't men who perpetuate this barbaric cruelty, but, women, who having the painful scars and mutilation, also decide to mutilate their young daughters.

[juliekan]

I still think these women had no choice even when they grew up. I think they don't know there is another way to live. Very simplistic view of the only life they have ever know.

[LLaFren]

I got the date right today:D

Keep posting, since my boss got fired yesterday, I have to make nice with the new boss today, and won't be able to see whats happening till I get home tonight.

:seeya:

[LLaFren]

Hey guys! I started the new Daily Thread...

I also wanted to thank everybody for posting all the info so I can keep up with what's going on when I get home from work!

See ya on the new thread!:seeya:

[cloe23]

Originally posted by LLaFren
I got the date right today:D

Keep posting, since my boss got fired yesterday, I have to make nice with the new boss today, and won't be able to see whats happening till I get home tonight.

:seeya: [/*]

:seeya: Morning! I woke up way too early today.
Left the windows open and it began rainning in. OT- Sorry

Looking forward to more news and links today.

[Jay]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Supreme Court Broadens Search Powers (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/23/scotus.searches/index.html)

Just to toss another bit of info out there, the Supreme Court just ruled in Virginia on the issue of probable cause and searches.




*edit* Ah, same case that was posted earlier, different article... [/*]


The ruling is not a surprise, but it concerned a motor vehicle stop. A state is still free under it's own Constitution to use it's exclusionary rule law to disallow the evidence obtained.

Although in THIS case, the evidence must be allowed in, as it case was reversed and remanded.

The question presented was did the officer's actions violate the "federal constitution" per the exclusionary rule, and it was answered in the negative.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/06-1082.pdf

The compound was subject to search under warrant though.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When officers have probable cause to believe that a person has committed a crime in their presence, the Fourth Amendment permits them to make an arrest, and to search the suspect in order to safeguard evidence and ensure their own safety," Justice Antonin Scalia wrote.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scalia is merely repeating settled law for opinion purposes.

The "in presence" requirement for a misdemeanor warrantless arrest is purely state specific, some do not require it, but many do.

The in presence doctrine goes back many many years, the constitution has never mandated a misdemeanor be committed in the officer's presence to effect a "warrantless" arrest, it is up to the individual state.

I majored in Criminal law in College, so I am familiar with arrest procedure and 4TH AM law, a little rusty, but still try to stay on top.

Thanks for the case update, I was not aware of the ruling yet.

[Jay]

Here is Texas' law, since the compound is in TX:

Art. 14.01. OFFENSE WITHIN VIEW. (a) A peace officer or any
other person, may, without a warrant, arrest an offender when the offense is committed in his presence or within his view, if the
offense is one classed as a felony or as an offense against the
public peace.

(*) A peace officer may arrest an offender without a warrant
for any offense committed in his presence or within his view.

Acts 1965, 59th Leg., vol. 2, p. 317, ch. 722. Amended by Acts 1967,
60th Leg., p. 1735, ch. 659, Sec. 8, eff. Aug. 28, 1967.

Of course a home entry arrest may not fall under this warrantless procedure.

[Jay]

Originally posted by Devotion
1862
The first federal law is passed outlawing polygamy.

1879
The U.S. Supreme Court upholds a guilty verdict in Utah territorial court against polygamist George Reynolds, Brigham Young's personal secretary. The case was meant as a challenge to federal anti-polygamy laws.

1886
LDS President John Taylor is allegedly visited by Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, who confirmed to him the righteousness of polygamy. Fundamentalists say Taylor asked five men to ensure the practice lives on.

1890
Contrary to the laws of the land

As Utah vies for statehood, LDS Church leader Wilford Woodruff issues "Official Declaration" suspending the practice of polygamy because it is contrary to the laws of the land..

LDS President Joseph F. Smith's “Second Manifesto” states that any person solemnizing or entering a plural marriage will be excommunicated.

because they are "jesus","or the voices made them do it".....jmo [/*]

From memory, I can tell you the UTAH constitution of 1896 forbids polygamy. I looked this up many years ago concerning an offboard discussion.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by Jay
Here is Texas' law, since the compound is in TX:

Art. 14.01. OFFENSE WITHIN VIEW. (a) A peace officer or any
other person, may, without a warrant, arrest an offender when the offense is committed in his presence or within his view, if the
offense is one classed as a felony or as an offense against the
public peace.

(*) A peace officer may arrest an offender without a warrant
for any offense committed in his presence or within his view.

Acts 1965, 59th Leg., vol. 2, p. 317, ch. 722. Amended by Acts 1967,
60th Leg., p. 1735, ch. 659, Sec. 8, eff. Aug. 28, 1967.

Of course a home entry arrest may not fall under this warrantless procedure. [/*]

Thanks, Jay!

We don't have any arrests, yet, in this case, other than the men who actively resisted the search. They've just used what was in their view during the first search for the second warrant.

Not a law major, or anything like that, here, but it seems to me like they've been very careful to do everything by the book. Heck, they haven't even arrested the guy who had a girl/woman (she stated, under said guy's direction, that she's 18, but I don't know if that's been proven or disproven) state that she's his fourth wife.

[Rainkiss]

Sounds like CPS is attempting to respect what they can of the culture the children were raised in:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/23/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

Pulliam said the temporary foster care facilities have been briefed on the children's needs. "We're not going to have them in tank tops and shorts," she said.

Authorities will try to obtain the youngsters' traditional clothing from their parents, and also arrange for visits from some of the adults, state attorney Gary Banks said.

In addition, CPS has sent instructions to the foster homes to feed the youngsters fresh fruits and vegetables, chicken, rice and other foods that may have been grown on the 1,700-acre ranch.

"They don't eat a lot of processed food and we're not going to encourage that," Pulliam said, but noted that if the children want to eat processed or junk food, no one is going to stop them.

Those who cling to the old traditions may pose another problem for the state -- they might run away. Driggs said polygamists' children have fled foster homes before because "they want to go home, and they want to go to people and circumstances they're used to."

The children have been educated in a schoolhouse on the compound using a home-school curriculum and may be ahead of public-school students their ages, lawyers said.

Hays and Pulliam said the children will continue to be home-schooled by the temporary foster-care providers instead of being thrown into big schools, where they could be bullied because of their differences.

I'd be very interested in seeing a report on where the children are, educationally, compared to other children their own ages.

[lotty]

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/hildale-ut/T7F2OIPQ153P4HRIL
Shurtleff says FLDS prayed for his death
By Dennis Romboy
Deseret News
Published: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:46 a.m. MDT

"They know in Utah we are coming after them for child-bride marriages," he said.

Shurtleff said he can't defend how Texas authorities raided the ranch but asked Parker how it could have been done since the compound is so isolated and closed.

"I don't know how you do it. I know how you don't do it. You don't show up with a tank at the gates with an army," Parker said."

IMO/JMO Here we go, I've heard this a lot. "This is not how you handle this situation." Ok, if this is not how Texas should have handled this situation, could anyone please tell me how they should have handled it? I've listened to people complain from the beginning, not one person on tv, in newspapers, blogs or message boards suggest how this could have REASONABLY been done better. I guess if Rod Parker doesn't know the answer, then maybe the answer is Texas did it right. Whether anyone likes it or not. As always JMO/IMO

[Devotion]

Originally posted by lotty
DNA is completely necessary! IMO/JMO

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/archives/2006_05_01_archive.htm
Friday, May 12, 2006
Count off!
Doing a family count in polygamist circles is a challenge.

For one thing, the sheer number of children fathered by some practioners is astounding.

John Daniel Kingston of the Salt Lake-based Kingston group has, according to court documents,

at least 110 children from 14 wives.

Rulon Jeffs, past prophet of the FLDS church, is said to have had around 65 children. According to the online encyclopedia Wikipedia, he had more than 60 children -- though it does not provide a source for these numbers -- and 22 wives.

But late in his life, when it was believed he was going to be renewed and grow younger as he aged to 350,

he was spiritually married to dozens of young women. Many were later married to his son, Warren Jeffs, after his death.

And because of the necessary secrecy that surrounds polygamy,

driven by its illegal status, even those on the inside may NOT KNOW the HUSBAND and FATHER of one woman or children.

At least, that has been my experience in talking to members of other polygamous groups as well as former FLDS members.

So, for instance, trying to find out the exact number of brothers and sisters Warren Jeffs has is more complicated than it might seem.

One half brother, an ex-FLDS member, put the total at 65 and said there were slightly more girls than boys in the family. But how many of each -- he couldn't say.

Likewise, any one who is currently putting a figure to how many wives and children Warren Jeffs has is only guessing. On one cable news show I heard two different figures over the course of an hour. One host said 50. Another said 60.

And there's the problem. No one knows and most of those purporting to know actually haven't had anything to do with Warren or the FLDS in years.

I have tried to pin it down in the past, too. I felt comfortable two years ago going with "40 wives" based on numerous interviews that seemed to confirm that number. Today, I am less willing to do that because it is so clear no one knows.

And the family math doesn't add up. Everyone seems to peg the count of his children at 100.
But if he has 50 wives, that is only two children per woman --

obviously wrong since many women in the FLDS community have 8 or more children.

It is not uncommon to hear of a woman who had as many as 18 children.

Bottom line: There is no way to know precisely how many wives and children Warren Jeffs has...... [/*].......
WHY aren't these men made to take responsibility for SUPPORTING these wives and children, like we do out families, then they would know how many they have?

These people may say they do not know the number of wives and children they have.....BUT...

It's my guess they DO know the NUMBER of WELFARE checks that they receive each month.

This out-going of welfare money has to be breaking the backs of the state tax-payers.

WHY don't the state put some restrictions on these welfare checks.?...like the following:

1. the female must name the father or no check...
(this way the state can go after the fathers paychecks)

2. welfare payments will be limited to 2 children.

3. Welfare payments will be limited to 2 years, unless the person is very handicapped.

Rewarding someone for NOT taking responsibility for their actions changes nothing,

and continually raises hard working, honest people's taxes......jmo

[Devotion]

Originally posted by cloe23


TY for the link! The reporter Mike Watkiss reported from Texas social services workers that they are dealing with children from a different planet. How come did TX ignore them for soooooooo long?????

As for the convicted felon
Seth, caught, smuggeling money $150,0000 dollars to Warren the guilty Jeffs.
It is not politcally correct to be the spokes person for the sect, dumb carps!
He was surrounded by six women from the sect?
I am sorry LDS but not gonna get this to go in your behalf.
(sp?)????:flamemad:

Not edited for spelling/typeos Public record.........
[/*]

The leaders seem to have plenty of CASH at a moments notice.
Did you notice they were driving clean, NEW vehicles?

Warren JEFFS family math doesn't add up.
Everyone seems to peg the count of his children at 100.
But if he has 50 wives, that is only two children per woman --

obviously wrong since many women in the FLDS community have 8 or more children.

It is not uncommon to hear of a woman who had as many as 18 children.

1 father with 50 wives x 8 children each = 400 children
and many welfare checks with BIG $$$$$$.....

My Bible says " a man who does NOT SUPPORT his family is worse than a infidel"....
(meaning, does not believe in the divinity of Jesus).....jmo

[tisamystery]

Shurtleff said he can't defend how Texas authorities raided the ranch but asked Parker how it could have been done since the compound is so isolated and closed.

"I don't know how you do it. I know how you don't do it. You don't show up with a tank at the gates with an army," Parker said."

IMO/JMO Here we go, I've heard this a lot. "This is not how you handle this situation." Ok, if this is not how Texas should have handled this situation, could anyone please tell me how they should have handled it? I've listened to people complain from the beginning, not one person on tv, in newspapers, blogs or message boards suggest how this could have REASONABLY been done better. I guess if Rod Parker doesn't know the answer, then maybe the answer is Texas did it right. Whether anyone likes it or not. As always JMO/IMO [/*]

Absolutely. It's easy in retrospect to say "you should have done this" or "shouldn't have done that" (although I don't know how it could have been done better) when you know the end result. They were dealing with a completely unknown situation. They didn't know how the FLDS would react . . . if they were armed . . . if they would resist. They were probably very concerned about creating another Waco. It turned out peaceful. Nobody was physically hurt or threatened. That's success in my book. :rose: tor Texas!

[tisamystery]

I would just love to know what's going on at Colorado City right now. I'll bet documents are disappearing by the crate-load.

On another note . . . are there any polygamists in your midst? I've lived in Arizona and now Idaho, both states that have known FLDS. In Phoenix I didn't see any but there was some speculation about a few families that were suspected of having plural marriages.

Here in Idaho, I've seen a few women and children dressed like the FLDS at the fabric store and at Target. There is a huge - I mean huge - house visible from the road near here that looks like it probably houses about 30 people or so. I've long wondered if it's a polygamist house. I mentioned it to a friend, who is Mormon and she began very tight-lipped about it. I don't know if she knows something or if she was insulted. (I had hoped we were close enough friends that she wouldn't be offended. After all, I make a clear distinction between LDS and FLDS.)

[Poochie Pie]

Originally posted by Devotion
.......
WHY aren't these men made to take responsibility for SUPPORTING these wives and children, like we do out families, then they would know how many they have?

These people may say they do not know the number of wives and children they have.....BUT...

It's my guess they DO know the NUMBER of WELFARE checks that they receive each month.

This out-going of welfare money has to be breaking the backs of the state tax-payers.

WHY don't the state put some restrictions on these welfare checks.?...like the following:

1. the female must name the father or no check...
(this way the state can go after the fathers paychecks)

2. welfare payments will be limited to 2 children.

3. Welfare payments will be limited to 2 years, unless the person is very handicapped.

Rewarding someone for NOT taking responsibility for their actions changes nothing,

and continually raises hard working, honest people's taxes......jmo [/*] Hi Devotion... I thought these new regulations were ALREADY in effect... :shrug: Seems like they changed it a few years ago... Gov't assistance had a 2 year limit and was only for a maximum of 2 Children..?? Wonder how this Sect "Community" got around the revised plan..?? It is outrageous to me that with all of their, let's say "financial stability", they were able to collect ANY form of Public Assistance..!!! I agree with every word of your post.. IMO

Poochie

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by Poochie Pie
Hi Devotion... I thought these new regulations were ALREADY in effect... :shrug: Seems like they changed it a few years ago... Gov't assistance had a 2 year limit and was only for a maximum of 2 Children..?? Wonder how this Sect "Community" got around the revised plan..?? It is outrageous to me that with all of their, let's say "financial stability", they were able to collect ANY form of Public Assistance..!!! I agree with every word of your post.. IMO

Poochie [/*]

Anybody know how well interconnected the different state welfare agencies are? I wonder if there are children registered and receiving benefits in multiple states.

[Rainkiss]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy843.html

The U.S. government paid more than $1.7 million in defense contracts over the last decade to companies owned by leaders of Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect, with tens of thousands allegedly winding its way back to Jeffs and his church.

In fact, some of the deals were made after Jeffs was named to the FBI's "Most-Wanted List" and remained in place while he was on the run.

CNN has learned that between 1998 and 2007, the United States Air Force and Defense Logistics Agency purchased more than $1.7 million worth of airplane parts from three companies owned by members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which practices polygamy.

Those companies are Utah Tool and Die, Western Precision and NewEra Manufacturing. Today, the companies all operate under the name NewEra Manufacturing, a company based in Las Vegas, Nevada, that says it supplies precision components "for the aerospace, military, medical, recreational and other commercial entities."

"It was my understanding that Western Precision was paying roughly $50,000 a week into the coffers of the church," former sect member Richard Holm said. "It would have been close to $200,000 a month."

Reading this so soon after I've filed my taxes is NOT good for my blood pressure.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


Anybody know how well interconnected the different state welfare agencies are? I wonder if there are children registered and receiving benefits in multiple states. [/*]
I doubt if they are connected at all. I found this information on the identification required for application for Texas's version of welfare....if they're on welfare in Texas, they would have to have this kind of documented proof of who they are.

http://www.dads.state.tx.us/handbooks/TexasWorks/A/600/600.htm#secA-621

[tisamystery]

Originally posted by Devotion
Warren JEFFS family math doesn't add up.
Everyone seems to peg the count of his children at 100.
But if he has 50 wives, that is only two children per woman --




Maybe his boys aren't really good swimmers. :D

[lotty]

In my midst not that I know of. I don't know of anyone resembling the FLDS in New Mexico, but who knows. I know we have some Mennonites. Most LDS members I know don't like talking about any of this either, quick subject change when anyone brings it up in conversation.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by tisamystery



Maybe his boys aren't really good swimmers. :D [/*]

:lol: Let's hope and pray that is true!!

[juliekan]

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5722975.html

Children bused to Southeast Texas
You can see where these kids will be staying. Scroll down below the map and click on pics: touring the sect children's new home

Pools, bikes, foosball etc. The kids will be shocked. Also one bed has Tinkerbell on it...in her "skimpy" little outfit.

[lotty]

Originally posted by juliekan
www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5722975.html

Children bused to Southeast Texas
You can see where these kids will be staying. Scroll down below the map and click on pics: touring the sect children's new home

Pools, bikes, foosball etc. The kids will be shocked. Also one bed has Tinkerbell on it...in her "skimpy" little outfit. [/*]
Wow! Thanks Julie!

[juliekan]

www.calfarley.org/

Here's where they took the boys.

[cloe23]

TY for the link!
Oh heck I chuck it up(the raid) as good training for LE.
To my knowledge no one was injrued:confused:

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Alex Cross


Newbie here!

I just had to add to this post. I don't believe these women know any better since this is the only world they know. So, I don't feel that they would look at what they are subjecting their daughters to as anything but the norm. I believe you are right, that these women wear their abuse as badges of holiness, but isn't it because they have no clue that they have even BEEN abused? [/*]

Yes it is. It is an unfortunate situation. They have been put to the test with this event. Do they love their religion more than their children? Each of them was given the opportunity to leave the ranch and get help from a women's shelter.

I understand the ranch and their religion is all they know, but if I had to make a choice between my religion and my children, well, it would be a no-brainer for me.

There are many many layers to the FLDS abuse. It's difficult to decide where loyalty should be placed. I can only speak for myself when I say my loyalty would not be with my abuser, but with my children.

If these women are so far gone with the daily brainwashing, and they choose their religion over their children, is their environment really the right place for the children to be right now?

:seeya: Welcome to the boards Alex!

[juliekan]

www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/20/20080420polygamist-ON.html

Boys, in the FLDS, after graduating from home school go on 2 yr "work missions" away from their family.
For the girls "usually your graduation dress becomes your wedding dress."

I know this has already been discussed, but how obvious is it that many of the girls are underage when married, if they marry after graduating from a home school program that only goes THROUGH THE 6TH GRADE?

[lotty]

Originally posted by cloe23


TY for the link!
Oh heck I chuck it up(the raid) as good training for LE.
To my knowledge no one was injrued:confused: [/*]
IMO/JMO Correct it was all peaceful, and the word "Standoff" was used in headlines at the beginning. Would I want to see the guns, and an armored carrier out my front door? No. I live on a public street, so it might not happen anyway. I just keep hearing how it was done incorrectly and I still haven't heard how to do it correctly...I guess my point is, for those who are griping about how this was done, come up with a better solution and let everyone know what it is before the griping begins. As always JMO/IMO.

[Rainkiss]

I can't give much credit to anyone who says, "That's not the way to do it," without a following, "THIS is how I would have done it differently."

Is a tank excessive for a child abuse case? Maybe... However, if they were expecting resistance, I can understand having it there. Better to be there with the tank you don't NEED, than to knock on the door with two guys and a warrant, and get your head blown off.

Just my humble opinion...

[juliekan]

Originally posted by cloe23


TY for the link!
Oh heck I chuck it up(the raid) as good training for LE.
To my knowledge no one was injrued:confused: [/*]

I find that spending time on the threads makes me much more informed than most of the TH out there. The folks on the news channels know very little about this case compared to us, who have been reading anything and everything. So, in my INFORMED opinion, Texas handled this raid very well.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
I can't give much credit to anyone who says, "That's not the way to do it," without a following, "THIS is how I would have done it differently."

Is a tank excessive for a child abuse case? Maybe... However, if they were expecting resistance, I can understand having it there. Better to be there with the tank you don't NEED, than to knock on the door with two guys and a warrant, and get your head blown off.

Just my humble opinion... [/*]
JMO/IMO ITA :beer:

[juliekan]

Originally posted by lotty

JMO/IMO ITA :beer: [/*]

:patriot:

[lotty]

Originally posted by juliekan


I find that spending time on the threads makes me much more informed than most of the TH out there. The folks on the news channels know very little about this case compared to us, who have been reading anything and everything. So, in my INFORMED opinion, Texas handled this raid very well. [/*]
:read: ITA! JMO/IMO It just seems people keep forgetting that LE are people too, and they risk their lives everyday when they go to work. JMO/IMO

[Rainkiss]

Appeals Court to Hear Case (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24294759/)

Just found this one...

AUSTIN - A Texas appeals court has agreed to hear arguments from dozens of female members of a polygamist sect whose children were seized in a raid earlier this month.

The Third Court of Appeals set a hearing for April 29.

The mothers want the court to allow them to remain in contact with their children while the children remain in state custody.

I suspect this one will be knocking on the Supreme Court's doors before too long. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have your children taken from you and put into state custody, doesn't that mean you're not SUPPOSED to have contact with them?

[lotty]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Appeals Court to Hear Case (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24294759/)

Just found this one...



I suspect this one will be knocking on the Supreme Court's doors before too long. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have your children taken from you and put into state custody, doesn't that mean you're not SUPPOSED to have contact with them? [/*]

JMO Especially when you refused to cooperate in the beginning and ID yourself and your children? JMO

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by juliekan


I find that spending time on the threads makes me much more informed than most of the TH out there. The folks on the news channels know very little about this case compared to us, who have been reading anything and everything. So, in my INFORMED opinion, Texas handled this raid very well. [/*]

ITA!!! :beer:

So far, Texas has been concerned for the safety of these women and children. That's more than any other state facing the same situation can say.

Most of the TH have not familiarized themselves with the history of FLDS or the plight of the women and children.

:patriot: TEXAS!

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Appeals Court to Hear Case (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24294759/)

Just found this one...



I suspect this one will be knocking on the Supreme Court's doors before too long. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have your children taken from you and put into state custody, doesn't that mean you're not SUPPOSED to have contact with them? [/*]

I asked this a few days ago, and I don't remember who answered this for me, but it was someone I trust. Parents are still allowed to visit with their children, usually in a supervised situation. Of course with the kids so spread out, it will be quite a drive to get to them.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by juliekan


I asked this a few days ago, and I don't remember who answered this for me, but it was someone I trust. Parents are still allowed to visit with their children, usually in a supervised situation. Of course with the kids so spread out, it will be quite a drive to get to them. [/*]

Thanks, Julie, it's a situation I haven't had experience with. Also, factor in the point that most of the mothers haven't yet been matched as the biological parent to their children, yet, have they? I believe I saw somewhere that the girls under 18 with children are not being separated from their babies, can't recall where or I'd post the link.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


Thanks, Julie, it's a situation I haven't had experience with. Also, factor in the point that most of the mothers haven't yet been matched as the biological parent to their children, yet, have they? I believe I saw somewhere that the girls under 18 with children are not being separated from their babies, can't recall where or I'd post the link. [/*]

Yes, how do you OK a visit for the mother if you don't know who the mother is?

Yes, the teenage mothers were young enough, also, to qualify for foster care, so they get to go with their babies.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by juliekan


I asked this a few days ago, and I don't remember who answered this for me, but it was someone I trust. Parents are still allowed to visit with their children, usually in a supervised situation. Of course with the kids so spread out, it will be quite a drive to get to them. [/*]

BUT...

www.sltrib.com/news/ writes "State officials last week had ordered all mothers away except for those with children under 5."

I guess right now, no visits.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Yes it is. It is an unfortunate situation. They have been put to the test with this event. Do they love their religion more than their children? Each of them was given the opportunity to leave the ranch and get help from a women's shelter.

I understand the ranch and their religion is all they know, but if I had to make a choice between my religion and my children, well, it would be a no-brainer for me.

There are many many layers to the FLDS abuse. It's difficult to decide where loyalty should be placed. I can only speak for myself when I say my loyalty would not be with my abuser, but with my children.

If these women are so far gone with the daily brainwashing, and they choose their religion over their children, is their environment really the right place for the children to be right now?

:seeya: Welcome to the boards Alex! [/*]

I don't think they see it as choosing between their religion and their children. To them, what's happening in the name of their religion is for the best. To them, marrying early and producing as many children as possible is the highest (or ONLY) calling for a daughter. And for the boys that are exiled, they likely believe either that they've been "called" to another compound, or that they're unrepentant sinners, removed to make the rest of their sons safer.

[lotty]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9023233
Titled 'Cultural Competencies'
Workers' tipsheet on FLDS sparks outrage
It promotes stereotypes, attorney says; source for document says it's about 'how you respect' the sect
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/23/2008 02:42:55 AM MDT
SAN ANGELO, Texas - A tipsheet provided to Texas case workers working with women and children from a polygamous sect has outraged an attorney working with their families, who says it promotes unfounded stereotypes.
The "Cultural Competencies" tipsheet warns that workers should expect FLDS members to be fearful, self-destructive and distrustful of government.

JMO/IMO Guess which attorney was outraged. JMO/IMO

[xray ra]

I guess I'm just confused with everyone in the media referring to the FDLS women as "mothers" and using the word "marriage" when talking about the polygamy.

As far as I am concerned, until the DNA results are in, the "Mothers" should be referred to has the "female caregivers in the community". And the reference to "marraige" should not even be used, as no legal marraige could have taken place except for the first marraige by the man and woman involved.
They could use the term "spiritual union" but not marraige.
So basically, none of the youngest girls could have been "married" as the men involved were already legally married to the older women.

Just another reason that I don't feel sympathy for the so-called "mothers" in this community. No proof, yet!!

[awareness]

Originally posted by juliekan
www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5722975.html

Children bused to Southeast Texas
You can see where these kids will be staying. Scroll down below the map and click on pics: touring the sect children's new home

Pools, bikes, foosball etc. The kids will be shocked. Also one bed has Tinkerbell on it...in her "skimpy" little outfit. [/*]

Thanks for the link.

Wow, that will be a shock to a degree, even though I can tell in some cases they tried to mitigate outside influence. Spiderman? Tinkerbell? Also the pool... what would they wear? They aren't supposed to wear swimsuits probably because it shows too much skin. Do any of them know how to swim I wonder?

Nice grounds for the group homes though, all the trees & grass.

JMO/IMO

[awareness]

Originally posted by xray ra
<snip>
As far as I am concerned, until the DNA results are in, the "Mothers" should be referred to has the "female caregivers in the community". And the reference to "marraige" should not even be used, as no legal marraige could have taken place except for the first marraige by the man and woman involved.
They could use the term "spiritual union" but not marraige.
So basically, none of the youngest girls could have been "married" as the men involved were already legally married to the older women.
<snip>[/*]

Ive heard it called plural marriage, celestial marriage.

The only legal marriage is to the first wife. The others are called sister wives to each other.

In terms of mother, I hear what you're saying but they're all called mother and the men uncle it seems.

JMO/IMO

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by Ionmhainn


Carol, I'm not sure I buy that. They're certainly smart enough to avoid the questions put to them! We always see the same little group in interviews...hand picked, perhaps? Either way, ignorance has never been an acceptable defense, to my knowledge. If they didn't "know any better" that has certainly changed now. IMO [/*] ITA, some of the woman have given interviews stating that they have lived in the outside world. I particulary recall an older woman with dark hair on Good Morning America. I think she was the one who said she had 12 children.. JMO

[Devotion]

Originally posted by xray ra

I guess I'm just confused with everyone in the media

referring to the FDLS women as "mothers" and using

the word "marriage" when talking about the polygamy.

As far as I am concerned, until the DNA results are in, the "Mothers" should be referred to has the "female caregivers in the community".

And the reference to "marraige" should not even be

used, as no legal marraige could have taken place

except for the first marraige by the man and woman involved.

They could use the term "spiritual union" but not marraige.
So basically, none of the youngest girls could have been "married" as the men involved were already legally married to the older women.

Just another reason that I don't feel sympathy for the so-called "mothers" in this community.

No proof, yet!! [/*]

IMO....Good Points...Why is marriage being used? These are single mothers drawing welfare.

The following is a very interesting site about the Millions in taxpayer CASH that has helped fund the sect....
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5700799.html

[cloe23]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5725956.html


April 24, 2008, 12:00AM
Representing sect's youth proves a complicated task
Questions loom and client time is chaotic, but for 350 Texas lawyers, it's about the kids


By MARY FLOOD
Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle

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The lawyers who arrived in San Angelo last week were given IDs, health screenings, multiple shots of hand-sanitizing Purell and a colored folder for each client — most got one folder, some more than one.

Orange was for the pregnant girls, one lawyer said. Another said pink was for the youngest children.

They met with their clients in a corner of the crowded local coliseum. Most lawyers didn't get to talk to parents or do any investigation, as is customary. Most didn't get to see the evidence gathered by Child Protective Services, even in court.

About 350 Texas lawyers are now realizing the sobering journey they've agreed to, one that's taking them into unknown legal territory, in the cases of the children from the Eldorado polygamist sect ranch.

More than 400 children were removed in a raid this month on the Yearning for Zion Ranch run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon splinter group that allegedly believes in marrying off underage girls to older men. State child-welfare authorities said there was evidence of physical and sexual abuse at the ranch.

"This is wildly different than anything I've encountered," said Betty J. Luke, a South Texas College of Law professor who works on clinical studies. She's represented children before. But this week, she's had trouble getting to sleep with the begging cries of her new 7-year-old client's last phone call echoing in her head.

Luke, like hundreds of other Texas lawyers, answered calls and e-mails seeking volunteers last week.

Though many of the lawyers praised local court officials for doing the best under incredible circumstances, there was also what Luke calls an "ugly side" to the two-day hearing that decided the temporary fate of the children.

"There was no meaningful way to have my client addressed at this cattle call. ... There has been no way yet to meaningfully represent my client," said Luke, who has had trouble reaching a Texas Child Protective Services case worker.


Biggest case in history
Donna Broom, another South Texas College of Law clinical faculty volunteer, compared watching the large temporary custody hearing on a monitor outside the courtroom to "watching the O.J. Simpson trial on TV and trying to adequately represent someone in the case."

"Everything is different here," she said. "These children have a way of life so different from a typical child. You can't just sit them in front of an Xbox or a TV set and say acclimate yourself.

"This is the biggest child custody case in history, and there will be a lot of law coming out of this case," said Broom.

And that's a lot of what will happen next. There will likely be many legal requests to the local judge and to state appellate and federal courts that could intervene. A federal civil rights lawsuit against a state official is another possibility.

Guy Choate, a San Angelo lawyer who has put aside his own work to help organize the representation of the children, said he knows lawyers across the state are working on challenges to the temporary custody hearing that local state District Judge Barbara Walther held for all the children at once.


Egos reined in
"The biggest complaint is that each child has not had the separate 14-day hearing they are entitled to," said Choate. "There are questions about whether to appeal, whether it would be in state court or federal court, in San Angelo or where the children wind up."

He said he was pleased with how the lawyers sublimated their egos and worked together.

"It was really impressive. I've been in hearings with 10 lawyers where I wanted to kill nine of them," said Choate.

Sheryl Johnson-Todd, a Houston family law lawyer volunteer, said she was overwhelmed by the generosity and sacrifice of the people of San Angelo.

Johnson-Todd said some of the information about the case not made public explains more of what's happened and people will "have to trust a little that we're not all flaming idiots out there."

The State Bar also has asked lawyers to contribute to legal foundations to help defray the costs for volunteers and to Legal Aid of NorthWest Texas, which is working to represent indigent mothers.

At the end of the hearing last week, the judge praised the army of attorneys.

"Before I make my ruling," Walther began, "on behalf of the judges of the state of Texas, I want to thank every member of the bar for doing an outstanding job for their clients. I have never been more proud of all of you."

Chronicle reporter Terri Langford contributed to this story.

mary.flood@chron.com

[Carol25]

From what I understand from the news, the number of children in custody has changed. Some females of the compound now say they are under 18.
Trying to keep up, are these women coming from the compound or were they already there for the children under 5?
I can't remember the number, it's something like 30 more.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Carol25
From what I understand from the news, the number of children in custody has changed. Some females of the compound now say they are under 18.
Trying to keep up, are these women coming from the compound or were they already there for the children under 5?
I can't remember the number, it's something like 30 more. [/*]

Hey Carol :seeya:

I heard on the news yesterday that some of the 'girls' had given birth, which accounts for some of that number. They went from 416 to 437. I don't think that number changed that much from births. It may be that some of the girls who initially said they were older than 18 have now told the truth about being minors. That could pop the number up too.

[KatyDid]

hmmmm...well, I don't know. Maybe they just couldn't get an accurate count in the beginning.

The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services confirmed to the Deseret News late Monday that 437 FLDS children are now being housed at the San Angelo Coliseum, along with 95 mothers. That number is up by 21 from the 416 children that child welfare workers have repeatedly reported over the past two weeks.

http://www.childbrides.org/news_texas_des_tally_of_FLDS_children_jumps_from_4 16_to_437.html

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Carol25
From what I understand from the news, the number of children in custody has changed. Some females of the compound now say they are under 18.
Trying to keep up, are these women coming from the compound or were they already there for the children under 5?
I can't remember the number, it's something like 30 more. [/*]

Are you saying that more girls who where not taken upon the raid are now wanting get out, thus admitting they are under 18?
So now they have 30 more girls??
If this is ture, how did that get out/How did that get out of the compound and into the hands of the state without the elders stopping them?
Phone calls?
Or are they still searching the ranch? Interviewing the women/girls?
:confused:

[Details]

It sounded a little like some of the mothers of children under 4, who had been allowed to stay, and were being kicked out now, admitted (or claimed - either one) to being under 18. I suspect most of them are telling the truth - there are plenty of underage mothers in this cult.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by cloe23


Are you saying that more girls who where not taken upon the raid are now wanting get out, thus admitting they are under 18?
So now they have 30 more girls??
If this is ture, how did that get out/How did that get out of the compound and into the hands of the state without the elders stopping them?
Phone calls?
Or are they still searching the ranch? Interviewing the women/girls?
:confused: [/*]

Hi cloe :seeya:
I tried to answer your pm yesterday, but your mailbox was full.

Katy

[cloe23]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Hi cloe :seeya:
I tried to answer your pm yesterday, but your mailbox was full.

Katy [/*]

Hi katy:seeya:

Best start cleaning it out. Pretty uneventul day on the fourm, IMO.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Details
It sounded a little like some of the mothers of children under 4, who had been allowed to stay, and were being kicked out now, admitted (or claimed - either one) to being under 18. I suspect most of them are telling the truth - there are plenty of underage mothers in this cult. [/*]

How do these girls even know how old they are, are they allowed to celabrate birithdays??

[FoxySly]

Originally posted by Shell0724
No, of course not. But, once they reached adulthood, they had the choice to raise their daughters free from that trauma, but, instead decided to wear their own rapes and abuse as badges of holiness, and call it a ritual of the righteous. It's particularly offensive since they experienced this themselves, but, still decide to continue the tradition of rape and horror on the next innocent generation. JMO of course.

It reminds me of the scourge of female genital mutilation which still exists in parts of the world. It isn't men who perpetuate this barbaric cruelty, but, women, who having the painful scars and mutilation, also decide to mutilate their young daughters. [/*]

What a wonderful thing it must be to NOT have a clue to this kind of horror. You are very lucky IMO to NOT understand.

Sly

[juliekan]

Hi, AM people. Do you think we might can stay on a daily thread? I noticed people posting on yesterday's. Today's thread was weak..I'd hate for it to just fade away.................
Like to have someone to follow the case with:)
Now it's time for me to say :seeya:

[walton]

Originally posted by juliekan
Hi, AM people. Do you think we might can stay on a daily thread? I noticed people posting on yesterday's. Today's thread was weak..I'd hate for it to just fade away.................
Like to have someone to follow the case with:)
Now it's time for me to say :seeya: [/*]

I like the Daily thread. Everyone has been so great about sharing links and info.

I think everyday this week though we've had two daily threads going. I don't know about anyone else but I got confused as to where I should go. Didn't want to start a subject and then have it closed.

Maybe at the end of the day, they all could be stock piled into a closed thread?

I've been cranky for 2 days so I didn't wanna bring it here.

I took my naps. I am better. :)

[Rainkiss]

I'll get today's started off with a link:

Sect challenges legality of search warrant, raid (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/24/polygamy.raid/index.html)

Anybody out there didn't see this coming?

Authorities knew that reports of alleged abuse at a polygamist sect's Texas ranch were questionable before they raided the compound, attorneys for the ranch's families said in court documents Thursday.

*snip*

The District Court motion filed Wednesday requests that Walther conduct a hearing to determine whether "good ground" existed to issue the two search warrants in connection with the raid.

It also asks her to issue an order restricting the publication of documents and records seized from the ranch.

I don't think this one is going to fly... Even if the first warrant was questionable, and I don't know it was, the second one strikes me as pretty ironclad.

[LLaFren]

I don't think that either will be overturned, it's a way to muddy the case up.

I didn't get online last night, so I have to go read all the posts, but just out of curiousity, any updated numbers on how many adults have submitted their DNA?

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
I'll get today's started off with a link:

Sect challenges legality of search warrant, raid (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/24/polygamy.raid/index.html)

Anybody out there didn't see this coming?



I don't think this one is going to fly... Even if the first warrant was questionable, and I don't know it was, the second one strikes me as pretty ironclad. [/*]

IMO I am happy to see the Sect is filing appeals or such and I hope they continue to keep it up. This imo is a prefect way to drain their
'Hard earned Money':D

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by juliekan
Hi, AM people. Do you think we might can stay on a daily thread? I noticed people posting on yesterday's. Today's thread was weak..I'd hate for it to just fade away.................
Like to have someone to follow the case with:)
Now it's time for me to say :seeya: [/*]

I PM'd Coldwater about fixing the "sticky" daily thread.

Morning to all!

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by cloe23


IMO I am happy to see the Sect is filing appeals or such and I hope they continue to keep it up. This imo is a prefect way to drain their
'Hard earned Money':D [/*]

Not really... They HAVE sent children to college. Wanna lay odds on how many of those children grew up to be lawyers, working pro bono for the FLDS? How 'bout volunteering to represent the children?

Getting cynical in my old age, here.

[north-eh]

Sorry, don't have the link, but it was reported on Dan Abrams last night that so far 25 underaged girls have children and so far one of them have four! So, they are 25 cases closer than when they started IMO.:mad:

N

[Rainkiss]

I stand corrected on where the mothers are:

The women were given a choice to go back to the ranch or a “safe” location. Azar said seven went back to the ranch and 40 went to the other location.

Velvet, one of the women who returned to the ranch, said the others went with Child Protective Services, fearing they’d never be allowed to see their children again if they didn’t.

Where the women chose to go has no bearing on the outcome of their custody cases, Azar said. The agency has said staff is working on plans to allow visitation.

Sect moms seperated from kids: MSN News (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24306122/)

The quote is from the second page. Azar is Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar.

[cloe23]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


Not really... They HAVE sent children to college. Wanna lay odds on how many of those children grew up to be lawyers, working pro bono for the FLDS? How 'bout volunteering to represent the children?

Getting cynical in my old age, here. [/*]

Nothing wrong with being cynical, its our bith right. Ya know the pecking order theryory, LOLhammer

About the kids being sent to college I dare to differ, I would think that the LDS kids that get sent to college have been raised in a more 2008 traditional home. Otherwise I see them failing, without having any social skills to even make it through a speach or debate course, unless of course they do it on line at the compound/camps.
JMO

[Rainkiss]

Moved this over here from the 4/23 daily thread, 'cause it's very well stated:

Originally posted by grammybear
We have all seen in our society people that have committed crimes and refused to take responsibility for their actions. It is always the fault of the victim alcohol or drugs. I am sure that at least the men in this group knew what they were doing was wrong but refuse to own up to it. I am sure there are a lot of older women who also know the truth. I know they say this is the belief of their religion but for me they are using their religion to excuse every action. From what little I know about the FLDS and their compounds they are very unfriendly to outsiders.

But to me it all comes down to personal responsibility. Most of them are not even attempting to take responsibility.
I have such a hard time with these women not having a problem with these so called marriages. This is much worse then the men having affairs with other women.

I am begining to think that some of the thinking comes down to this is their little harem group. I guess I will never understand anyone wanting to have more then one wife.

jmoo [/*]

One of the largest problems I have with a great variety of faiths we hold is the ability to avoid personal responsibility. "God says I should do this." "The Devil made me do it." Sorry, no, but I firmly believe that each individual is responsible for his or her actions.

Heck, most of the civil cases I saw when I worked for an attorney make me shake my head... Over half of the personal injury cases made me want to ask, "What were you THINKING?" Everybody wants somebody else to pay for their mistakes, and will search for ANY justification to make misfortunes not their own fault. And, of course, the higher the authority of the responsible party, the better.

[Rainkiss]

Another interesting bit... I hadn't heard that Carolyn Jessop was at the ranch in Texas:

Jessop arrived on-site Sunday, April 6, in hopes of reuniting two of her daughters with their half-siblings. She stated her opinion that the action in Texas was unlike the 1953 Short Creek raid in Arizona. On April 8 she was interviewed by the NBC Today Show regarding the event, and described life at a FLDS community. Jessop had also been in Texas the prior month at a speaking engagement, where she said, "[i]n Eldorado, the crimes went to a whole new level. They thought they could get away with more" but "Texas is not going to be a state that's as tolerant of these crimes as Arizona and Utah have been."

Found on her Wiki page here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_Jessop)

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by north-eh
Sorry, don't have the link, but it was reported on Dan Abrams last night that so far 25 underaged girls have children and so far one of them have four! So, they are 25 cases closer than when they started IMO.:mad:

N [/*]

I heard the same last night.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24306122/page/2/

The case has been marked by confusion, even on the number of children involved. The state’s count rose, for the second time, to 462 on Thursday because officials believe 25 more mothers from the compound who had claimed to be adults are under 18.


This is from page two of the article. There is also a related video link at the site.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by walton


I like the Daily thread. Everyone has been so great about sharing links and info.

I think everyday this week though we've had two daily threads going. I don't know about anyone else but I got confused as to where I should go. Didn't want to start a subject and then have it closed.

Maybe at the end of the day, they all could be stock piled into a closed thread?

I've been cranky for 2 days so I didn't wanna bring it here.

I took my naps. I am better. :) [/*]

I hope you are feeling better walton!

I agree, it's been hard to follow the daily news. A daily thread makes it easier for everybody to gather in one place, IMO.