Are the children better with CPS or with their mothers? [Archive]

Carol25

04-19-2008, 09:48 PM

I think the longer they are with CPS the better the chances are of the experiencing some of the necessary developmental needs of children. Play, making choices, experiencing new things forbidden in their world like books, toys things that stimulate theoir minds, even having conversations to begin to socialize properly.

Wouldn't it be nice to see these children laugh? They have never been introduced to "make believe". They've never seen a book where animals talk, or a little engine that says "I think I can". One of the parts of intelligence is humor where they can distinguish between absurd and reality.

We all noticed that the women are so literal and flat. They have never had the opportunity to make a choice that something is real, make believe , right or wrong, causes and effects, or allow anyone to learn and interpret the world, it's people, animals, cultures or resources.

No one is allowed to have an interest that stimumlates their mind or allows them to think.

I hope it takes years for CPS to do those tests. Or the tests are done, the men are dealt with and the women are deprogrammed and allowed to see what has happened to them by their men.

tisamystery

04-19-2008, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by tirante
If the allegations of marrying off the girls to horny old elders are true, the kids are better off in CPS.

I am not sure the term "mother" is appropriate. Perhaps, borrowing from the "Coneheads", the parents should be referred to as Female Parental Unit, and Male Parental Unit? Mother and father are not applicable terms in these instances. [/*]:beer:

evalles

04-20-2008, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Hey Paula
I believe the children are much better off with the CPS in this case.

The mothers of these children have been indoctrinated into the polygamist lifestyle, and cannot prevent their children from repeating it and being raped and abused again. If sent back to that environment, most of the children will likely repeat their parents' lifestyle and the abuse of children will continue for generations.

The cycle of abuse needs to stop and cannot and should not be tolerated under the guise of religion.

IMO [/*]

What were the results of the physical exams performed on the children.
It bothers me that before the results are even published and when in fact the caseworker testified that there were no accusations of abuse regarding the infants, boys, and preteen girls every one is inferring that they've all been raped and abused.
Children should be with their natural parents whenever possible.
The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back.
This could be an opportunity to help the women and children live normal lives, instead it seems that they're persecuting all of them based on the actions of an unknown (so far) few.
If you had been born into this lifestyle and it had been shoved down your throat since birth, are you sure that you would be any different than these women ?

Hey Paula

04-20-2008, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by evalles

What were the results of the physical exams performed on the children.
It bothers me that before the results are even published and when in fact the caseworker testified that there were no accusations of abuse regarding the infants, boys, and preteen girls every one is inferring that they've all been raped and abused.
Children should be with their natural parents whenever possible.
The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back.
This could be an opportunity to help the women and children live normal lives, instead it seems that they're persecuting all of them based on the actions of an unknown (so far) few.
If you had been born into this lifestyle and it had been shoved down your throat since birth, are you sure that you would be any different than these women ? [/*]

My concern is for the children, so the pattern of physical and sexual abuse doesn't continue now and into future generations.

I'm not blaming the mothers because they were the children of past generations. If the cycle isn't stopped, it will continue to rob children of their youth and innocence for generations to come.

IMO

Details

04-20-2008, 02:24 AM

The mothers have been and are victims - but they are also abusers. They support the abuse of the children. The children definitely need to be with CPS until, and IF AND ONLY IF, the mothers wake up, agree to raise them as children and people, not pedophile fodder.

juliekan

04-20-2008, 03:24 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by evalles

"The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back."

On TV last night, I heard a woman say that, and then say they would be "willing to compromise". Compromise with the State of Texas regarding polygamy, or marrying off their children underage, rape of their children, or covering for both. All are illegal; how worthy of "compromise"?
link: the crossword puzzle I was doing at the time, which I now cannot find! So JMO :shrug:

evalles

04-20-2008, 03:54 AM

Originally posted by juliekan
[QUOTE]Originally posted by evalles

"The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back."

On TV last night, I heard a woman say that, and then say they would be "willing to compromise". Compromise with the State of Texas regarding polygamy, or marrying off their children underage, rape of their children, or covering for both. All are illegal; how worthy of "compromise"?
link: the crossword puzzle I was doing at the time, which I now cannot find! So JMO :shrug: [/*]

How do you know that she, in particular, is accused of any of those things ?
If the state of TX doesn't want men to have sex w/ 16 year olds, they shouldn't issue marriage licenses to 16 yr olds.
I sure the heck wouldn't.

juliekan

04-20-2008, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by evalles

How do you know that she, in particular, is accused of any of those things ?
If the state of TX doesn't want men to have sex w/ 16 year olds, they shouldn't issue marriage licenses to 16 yr olds.
I sure the heck wouldn't. [/*]
16 yo must have parental consent.

Details

04-20-2008, 04:34 AM

And marriage licenses are only available for the first marriage. The state doesn't recognize, nor legalize a man having sex with several women and claiming them all as wives, and thus an exemption to the law.

walton

04-20-2008, 05:04 AM

Originally posted by Carol25
I think the longer they are with CPS the better the chances are of the experiencing some of the necessary developmental needs of children. Play, making choices, experiencing new things forbidden in their world like books, toys things that stimulate theoir minds, even having conversations to begin to socialize properly.

Wouldn't it be nice to see these children laugh? They have never been introduced to "make believe". They've never seen a book where animals talk, or a little engine that says "I think I can". One of the parts of intelligence is humor where they can distinguish between absurd and reality.

We all noticed that the women are so literal and flat. They have never had the opportunity to make a choice that something is real, make believe , right or wrong, causes and effects, or allow anyone to learn and interpret the world, it's people, animals, cultures or resources.

No one is allowed to have an interest that stimumlates their mind or allows them to think.

I hope it takes years for CPS to do those tests. Or the tests are done, the men are dealt with and the women are deprogrammed and allowed to see what has happened to them by their men. [/*]

I agree with everything except it taking years for these tests to come back. The kids need an identity. They need to know who their real parents. For a lot of reasons. Medical being one of them. Finances another.

sheltiemom

04-20-2008, 07:31 AM

Perhaps the women who have escaped from FLDS and have been able to establish a normal life for themselves and their children woujld be willing to foster some of these children. They would be in the best position to understand the children and help in the deprograming.

God Bless Texas!

Rainkiss

04-20-2008, 09:40 AM

evalles,

Children should be with their natural parents whenever possible.

I'm hoping that the "whenever possible" means "unless those parents pose a danger to their children." Until these mothers go through some serious counseling, they're a danger to their children. They honestly don't believe that it's wrong to have their early teenage daughters assigned to men several times their age as submissive junior "wives" with the intent to have them pregnant as soon and as often as possible. They believe that both laughter and tears are doorways for the devil to enter, and that children should be allowed neither, and that scares me almost as much as the physical abuses.

I'm all for the freedom of faith that this country was based on, but that freedom has to be tempered (as any freedom does) by the laws of the nation. (Freedom of speech, for example, ends at slander, at shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre... Freedom to pursue happiness ends at tossing a rock through a store window and stealing a wide-screen high-def TV set.) You don't get to build a church and declare, "Hey, my faith says it's required to sacrifice babies on the altar every Saturday afternoon," and get away with it.

Let me add that, if a man wants to have a half-dozen wives, I welcome him (and the wives, if they're up for it) to argue for the chance to pass a law making it legal, same as I support the idea of gays being allowed to fight for the right to marry.

The attitudes of the adults of this faith, and of the CHILDREN, need to be adjusted, or this cycle will never end.

giddyupalw

04-20-2008, 10:28 AM

IMO the children should not go back to the "natural" Mother until all these women get help!! These women have been abused too and are not fit to be a Mother!! I believe the children are safer with CPS!! Just MO!!!

juliekan

04-20-2008, 12:18 PM

I don't think it will necessarily be that hard to find folks that could accommodate these childrens needs, and I'm not talking about food and shelter. I grew up in West Texas and there's an awful lot of straight-laced, hard-working, and God-fearin' people out there. My mom grew up on a farm where they were basically self sufficient...so how was I raised? By the time I was 12, I could clean, cook, sew, mow the yard, type 50 wpm, and my Daddy started to teach me how to drive a car. We went to church at least 3 times per week and learning to sing well and/or play the piano was high on our list. Sounds like a perfect fit for these kids.

LLaFren

04-20-2008, 12:28 PM

Looks like the poll is favoring CPS, I believe that the children are in for a huge (HUGE) cultural shock though. I hope the foster parents are ready for it.

spirit07

04-20-2008, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Details
The mothers have been and are victims - but they are also abusers. They support the abuse of the children. The children definitely need to be with CPS until, and IF AND ONLY IF, the mothers wake up, agree to raise them as children and people, not pedophile fodder. [/*]

I worry about the fact that many of the mothers must directly aid in the abuse as well as many fathers. I do believe there are good men and women amongst these, but I'm not sure how one would know unless they would all be honest about what has transpired and what they witnessed. If stories could be adequately corroborated. I wish some of the men who are truly good and do not agree with the abuse (possibly) would come forward. Maybe there is also hope in finding more of those lost boys who would tell their story.

Carol25

04-20-2008, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by evalles

What were the results of the physical exams performed on the children.
It bothers me that before the results are even published and when in fact the caseworker testified that there were no accusations of abuse regarding the infants, boys, and preteen girls every one is inferring that they've all been raped and abused.
Children should be with their natural parents whenever possible.
The women have agreed to do whatever is required of them to get their children back.
This could be an opportunity to help the women and children live normal lives, instead it seems that they're persecuting all of them based on the actions of an unknown (so far) few.
If you had been born into this lifestyle and it had been shoved down your throat since birth, are you sure that you would be any different than these women ? [/*]
Evalles, I think there were no accusations of abuse because their definition of abuse is different. When they put very young children under water faucets until they stop crying, it's not abuse...it's discipline. When they lock them in closets for long periods of time without food or a chance to relieve themselves, they call it discipline. We don't.

Devotion

04-20-2008, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

Evalles, I think there were no accusations of abuse because their definition of abuse is different.

When they put very young children under water faucets until they stop crying, it's not abuse...it's discipline.

When they lock them in closets for long periods of time without food or a chance to relieve themselves, they call it discipline. We don't. [/*]

Good points....
Sadly we must remember when questioning them that their DEFINITION of most things are different than ours.

from what I've read, this cult seems to have been committing more crimes & breaking more laws, per Person/population, than the "so-called EVIL outside" world.....IMO

crimeq

04-20-2008, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by LLaFren
Looks like the poll is favoring CPS, I believe that the children are in for a huge (HUGE) cultural shock though. I hope the foster parents are ready for it. [/*]

I think this culture shock is going to be similar to that of older Russian kids adopted and brought to the US--there's a lot of RAD in these kids that I think is attributable to being moved into a completely strange culture (including language) and expected to "fit". Of course there is major culture shock for the children and they are overwhelmed by the new strangeness.

While these 400+ kids now in CPS custody speak English, they have been uprooted from all that they do know, separated from those whom they know, and are being put into a world they know nothing of and may well be very frightening to them.

This case is a very, very tough call, IMO. I do think children are usually better off with the natural parent(s) in most cases but these kids sound like they are raised in a way to fit nowhere but within their own compound. But then--if that's the life they would pursue--is it abusive to them to not teach them of the outside world?

The complexities in this case are enormous and sadly, quite a number of lives have been and are in process of being ruined. :confused:

crimeq

04-20-2008, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by maryhaze

how about sperm donors & incubators? those are the terms i use when talking about people that can't or don't care for their kids. [/*]

:mad: You're forgetting that each child is made up approximately 50-50 of the "sperm donor" and "incubator". Attatching such derogatory labels isn't going to help anyone's situation or detract from the real biology of the child.

crimeq

04-20-2008, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by skytalk

I can't say I agree with or enjoy your choice of labels for human beings with SEVERE problems in parenting as 'incubators and sperm donors'.

They are parents--albeit--not healthy parents. When children are endangered it is wise to have the state intervene are behalf of the vulnerable children and parents.

We don't want harmful parents to be able to continue harming their children regardless of their reasons--their own culturally accepted generational abuse, drug abuse, mental illness. [/*]

All great points. Thanks.

juliekan

04-20-2008, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by skytalk

You sound like someone I would enjoy meeting. [/*]:)
:biggrin:

evalles

04-21-2008, 06:11 PM

Strayhorn To Report Foster Care Deaths,
Poisonings, Rapes and Pregnancies To Task Force
Friday, June 23, 2006
<Snips>
"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the
number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more
likely to die in our state's foster care system," Strayhorn said.
Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services
Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from
medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred
while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state
foster care system.
Strayhorn said her findings will be reported Thursday, June 29, 2006 to the
Medicaid and Public Assistance Fraud Oversight Task Force so there will be a
public record of this neglect and abuse.”
Hundreds of foster children who were HIV infected were used as
guinea pigs to test AIDS drugs by federally funded researchers
during the 1990’s in 7 states. Texas was among those. No medical
advocates were appointed for the children in violation of federal law and the
“Protection of Human Subjects” guidelines.
It is well-documented that children typically DIE IN THE
SYSTEM. This documentation comes from the U.S. Department of Health
and Human Services itself:
http://www.syc.org/child_deaths.html
Deaths that occur while a child is under the custody or supervision of the child
welfare agency are especially egregious. Child Protective Services in 45 States
reported 32 deaths that occurred in foster care. Of these, 17 deaths were reported
by other agencies such as the coroner's office and fatality review boards.
Approximately 2.7 percent of child fatalities reported by the States occurred in
some type of out-of-home placement setting.
To repeat, 2.7% of ALL child fatalities happen on CPS's watch.
According to this NCPA study, http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s210/s210.html about
500,000 children were in foster care as of 1996. According to Trends 1997,
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/97trends/Pf1-1.htm the number of children in the general
population in the United States was nearly 70 million children in 1996. So, in
foster care, 0.7% of the children were in the custody of CPS. That means that
the death rate in CPS is nearly 4 times greater than the average
for the general population. This is hardly "child-protection.”
One of the most extensive studies on the subject, by Strauss and Gelles (1990)
reports that for physical abuse, the rate is higher for mothers than for fathers:
17.7% for mothers vs. 10.1% for fathers. They found that preteen boys are
slightly more likely to be abused than their sisters but that the pattern changes
alter puberty. Strauss and Gelles, however, also refer to some contravening
studies that show higher rates for fathers.
Susan Steinmetz (1977/78) who has collaborated with Strauss and Gelles,
reported independently that "mothers abused children 62% more often than
fathers, and that male children were more than twice as likely to suffer physical
injury" (p.499).
David C. Morrow (1993) reports: "Drawing upon reports of the American
Humane Association, the Association of Juvenile Courts, the National Center for
the Prevention of Child Abuse, and the FBI's 1978 crime report, John Rossler of
Equal Rights for Fathers of New York State estimated that mothers commit over
two-thirds of all child abuse, 80% of it in sole custody and none in joint custody
situations, while boyfriends and new husbands perpetrate most of the rest. A
similar study conducted a few years earlier in Utah by Ken Pangborn showed
abuse 37% higher among single mothers than the general population and 67% of
all abuse in the doing of women of whom 80% are single mothers."
Diane Russell (1986) reports that of adult women in San Francisco who reported
one or more experiences of incestuous abuse, overall 4.5% were abused by a
father (biological, step, foster or adoptive). But the abuse was much more likely to
occur with a stepfather. Russell reports that 17% of the women who were raised
by a stepfather were abused by him compared to 2% of the women who were
raised by a biological father. This indicates the greater risk to a girl of growing up
in a household without her biological father.
Thomas Fleming (1986) cites a Canadian study that concluded that preschoolers
were 40 times as likely to be abused in broken and illegitimate families as
compared to those in intact two-parent families.
The consensus thus appears to support the assertion that child abuse is much more
common in single parent families or families missing the biological
father, that women are more often the abusers, and that male children
are more often the victims.

More info:

http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/news/60623forgotten.html

Carol25

04-21-2008, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by evalles
Strayhorn To Report Foster Care Deaths,
Poisonings, Rapes and Pregnancies To Task Force
Friday, June 23, 2006
<Snips>
"
More info:

http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/news/60623forgotten.html [/*]
I agree that these statistics are alarming. But if there were accurate statistics of the FLDS group, would you be comforted?

We've heard of the forced "marriages " upon puberty, water torture of children, abandoning of the "lost boys", etc. Alarming as the statistics you posted were, the statistics for these children and women are just as alarming if not terribly worse.

Wouldn't you agree that we are both here in the best interests of the children and perhaps the women? Perhaps we should focus on the assurance of the type of foster homes these children may be going to. And what kind of screening and education the foster parents will receive in order to help these special people. That would be a concern of mine.

evalles

04-21-2008, 07:07 PM

evalles

04-21-2008, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
evalles,

I'm hoping that the "whenever possible" means "unless those parents pose a danger to their children." Until these mothers go through some serious counseling, they're a danger to their children. They honestly don't believe that it's wrong to have their early teenage daughters assigned to men several times their age as submissive junior "wives" with the intent to have them pregnant as soon and as often as possible. They believe that both laughter and tears are doorways for the devil to enter, and that children should be allowed neither, and that scares me almost as much as the physical abuses.

I'm all for the freedom of faith that this country was based on, but that freedom has to be tempered (as any freedom does) by the laws of the nation. (Freedom of speech, for example, ends at slander, at shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre... Freedom to pursue happiness ends at tossing a rock through a store window and stealing a wide-screen high-def TV set.) You don't get to build a church and declare, "Hey, my faith says it's required to sacrifice babies on the altar every Saturday afternoon," and get away with it.

Let me add that, if a man wants to have a half-dozen wives, I welcome him (and the wives, if they're up for it) to argue for the chance to pass a law making it legal, same as I support the idea of gays being allowed to fight for the right to marry.

The attitudes of the adults of this faith, and of the CHILDREN, need to be adjusted, or this cycle will never end. [/*]

That's what whenever possible means.

evalles

04-21-2008, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by tirante
So? What was that about? [/*]

That children are abused in foster care also and that the government doesn't always know best.

evalles

04-21-2008, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

I agree that these statistics are alarming. But if there were accurate statistics of the FLDS group, would you be comforted?

We've heard of the forced "marriages " upon puberty, water torture of children, abandoning of the "lost boys", etc. Alarming as the statistics you posted were, the statistics for these children and women are just as alarming if not terribly worse.

Wouldn't you agree that we are both here in the best interests of the children and perhaps the women? Perhaps we should focus on the assurance of the type of foster homes these children may be going to. And what kind of screening and education the foster parents will receive in order to help these special people. That would be a concern of mine. [/*]

Government workers( who are people w/ their own biases) choose foster homes. I'm sure there are good ones, but if you research foster care, the standards aren't as high as they are for the bio parents.
A lot of times, once a foster home is licensed, they're reluctant to take complaints against fosterers seriously.

evalles

04-21-2008, 07:17 PM

I've spent so much time on these boards lately that my house is a mess and my laundry is piling up.

Please don't call CPS.

Carol25

04-21-2008, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by evalles
I've spent so much time on these boards lately that my house is a mess and my laundry is piling up.

Please don't call CPS. [/*]
Promise. I'd have to turn myself in first. :D

xray ra

04-21-2008, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by evalles
I've spent so much time on these boards lately that my house is a mess and my laundry is piling up.

Please don't call CPS. [/*]

:lol: You're funny! But I wish I didn't have to navigate so MANY threads. Why can't we all just post on one thread. My puter's tired!!!!!

Carol25

04-21-2008, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Government workers( who are people w/ their own biases) choose foster homes. I'm sure there are good ones, but if you research foster care, the standards aren't as high as they are for the bio parents.
A lot of times, once a foster home is licensed, they're reluctant to take complaints against fosterers seriously. [/*]
Well, I'm not sure where you get all of your information, but my guess would be that they will do their best to find very good homes. This is so high profile, they won't want any bad placements hitting the news!

Have you ever thought of starting an Oversight Group?

Carol25

04-21-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

:lol: You're funny! But I wish I didn't have to navigate so MANY threads. Why can't we all just post on one thread. My puter's tired!!!!! [/*]
Really! I'm getting my exercise!:chicken:

evalles

04-21-2008, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

Well, I'm not sure where you get all of your information, but my guess would be that they will do their best to find very good homes. This is so high profile, they won't want any bad placements hitting the news!

Have you ever thought of starting an Oversight Group? [/*]

There are several, which is where I get most of my info.

CPS Watch, Child Protection Reform, TAF United and Court Watchers. They have thousands of members and some of their stories are heartbreaking.
Every once in awhile, somebody will post that I have no sympathy for but for the most part they are victims of the system.
I missed alot of time at work over the last year and between playing catch up and trying to spend more time with my kids, I haven't had a lot of extra time. As soon as things calm down a little, I plan on taking a more active role.
Mainly, I want accountability in the system. I think open courts in these types of cases would help. I'd like LE to investigate cases where children are at risk of being removed.
Did you read the report that Sen Nancy Shaeffer wrote after she spent 5 years investigating CPS in her state ?

http://fightcps.com/2008/02/29/report-of-georgia-senator-nancy-schaefer-on-cps-corruption/

She's not in CPS, she's not a disgruntled parent. She has no ulterior motives and she thinks it is nationwide.

evalles

04-21-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

:lol: You're funny! But I wish I didn't have to navigate so MANY threads. Why can't we all just post on one thread. My puter's tired!!!!! [/*]

LOL. I know. Which one ?

xray ra

04-21-2008, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by evalles

LOL. I know. Which one ? [/*]

I think the STICKY thread covers it all. But first go and read my post on the "Fundementals Latter Day Saints" or something like that. OK? (around 6pm):)

Carol25

04-21-2008, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by evalles

There are several, which is where I get most of my info.

CPS Watch, Child Protection Reform, TAF United and Court Watchers. They have thousands of members and some of their stories are heartbreaking.
Every once in awhile, somebody will post that I have no sympathy for but for the most part they are victims of the system.
I missed alot of time at work over the last year and between playing catch up and trying to spend more time with my kids, I haven't had a lot of extra time. As soon as things calm down a little, I plan on taking a more active role.
Mainly, I want accountability in the system. I think open courts in these types of cases would help. I'd like LE to investigate cases where children are at risk of being removed.
Did you read the report that Sen Nancy Shaeffer wrote after she spent 5 years investigating CPS in her state ?

http://fightcps.com/2008/02/29/report-of-georgia-senator-nancy-schaefer-on-cps-corruption/

She's not in CPS, she's not a disgruntled parent. She has no ulterior motives and she thinks it is nationwide. [/*]
do they ever do anything about the cases they were supposed to investigate and didn't where the children ended up dead? That's where I come from and get real :flamemad:

Details

04-21-2008, 08:11 PM

There are bad CPS, and good, bad foster homes and good. But every last person to escape FLDS tells the same story - and it's bad.

Oh, and Flora Jessup said this was common in FLDS, not just that her husband did it once. It reflected FLDS beliefs in not letting children cry.. or laugh.

Even the worst stats, even the worst stories, show CPS to be a far better choice, and most of the time, they're good. Just me alone, I can point to two kids that I know who are in a much better place due to CPS. I also know of a father who probably should have some CPS investigation, but because the rules require a few reports in most circumstances, he's not getting it.

For bad CPS stories - I don't trust those unless I hear the other side. Abusive parents know how to lie, know how to present just their side, omitting all negative facts, having their kids lie for them - as kids often lie for abusers. So, when I hear a pitiful CPS story - I take it with a large grain of salt. Even when the parent is telling the truth - they're telling what they believe - they may be as honest as the FLDS women who say the children are not abused - by their definition of abuse. You know - the "my ma used to beat my butt blistered with a garden hose, so it's not abuse to whale on a kid a bit!" types.

evalles

04-21-2008, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

do they ever do anything about the cases they were supposed to investigate and didn't where the children ended up dead? That's where I come from and get real :flamemad: [/*]

There were a couple recent cases (one worker was fired) where workers filed reports stating they visited certain children and they didn't. The found a child that had been dead for quite awhile, but a CPS worker had documented that the child was fine.

LLaFren

04-21-2008, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

:lol: You're funny! But I wish I didn't have to navigate so MANY threads. Why can't we all just post on one thread. My puter's tired!!!!! [/*]

Watch out, there is a sticky thread for every day...I try to start it as soon as I get up.

I get up rather late (5am or so EST), that way we're all on the same page (and no tired puters).

Come join us...

evalles

04-21-2008, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by tirante

News Flash! The situation at Eldorado is NOT about "bio parents", nor even a remote similarity of such a situation. Children with no names, fake names, no parentage verified, no birth certificates, etc.............ad nausea.

Apples and oranges. [/*]

I thought it was about the children's safety, not about fake names, no birth certificates, etc.

evalles

04-21-2008, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by tirante

News Flash! The situation at Eldorado is NOT about "bio parents", nor even a remote similarity of such a situation. Children with no names, fake names, no parentage verified, no birth certificates, etc.............ad nausea.

Apples and oranges. [/*]

You're funny.
It's not about the biological parents, but it's about identifying their parentage ?
:lol:

xray ra

04-21-2008, 11:41 PM

hey EV come over to the Sticky thread:seeya:
ra

evalles

04-21-2008, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Details
There are bad CPS, and good, bad foster homes and good. But every last person to escape FLDS tells the same story - and it's bad.

Oh, and Flora Jessup said this was common in FLDS, not just that her husband did it once. It reflected FLDS beliefs in not letting children cry.. or laugh.

Even the worst stats, even the worst stories, show CPS to be a far better choice, and most of the time, they're good. Just me alone, I can point to two kids that I know who are in a much better place due to CPS. I also know of a father who probably should have some CPS investigation, but because the rules require a few reports in most circumstances, he's not getting it.

For bad CPS stories - I don't trust those unless I hear the other side. Abusive parents know how to lie, know how to present just their side, omitting all negative facts, having their kids lie for them - as kids often lie for abusers. So, when I hear a pitiful CPS story - I take it with a large grain of salt. Even when the parent is telling the truth - they're telling what they believe - they may be as honest as the FLDS women who say the children are not abused - by their definition of abuse. You know - the "my ma used to beat my butt blistered with a garden hose, so it's not abuse to whale on a kid a bit!" types. [/*]

Can you please post the links to those stats ?
I can't imagine that government employees would know more about a family than the family themself.
CPS isn't above lying to cover up their mistakes.

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 12:11 AM

evalles

04-22-2008, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by tirante

Definition of, "family"? [/*]

Ask the children.

evalles

04-22-2008, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by johnielee333

i agree. [/*]

Do you know them personally or is this based on what you've learned from the media ?

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by giddyupalw
IMO the children should not go back to the "natural" Mother until all these women get help!! These women have been abused too and are not fit to be a Mother!! I believe the children are safer with CPS!! Just MO!!! [/*]

the natural mother & father of some of these kids might be in one of the other sects in the other state's. they shouldnt get their kids back either because if this stuff is happening in this texas ranch sect then i would say its happening in the other's too.
they all need to be stopped.

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 12:42 AM

evalles

04-22-2008, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by johnielee333

the natural mother & father of some of these kids might be in one of the other sects in the other state's. they shouldnt get their kids back either because if this stuff is happening in this texas ranch sect then i would say its happening in the other's too.
they all need to be stopped. [/*]

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Texanne
I am horrified at the idea of so many children being placed "in the system". However, I don't see any other alternative at this time. The mothers have failed them, so what else are we to do? In my fantasy world, a lot of the mothers would realize the evil of what is done to women and children in the "cult" and would leave it and raise the children in a normal lifestyle out of the influences of the cult. The whole thing is just depressing. [/*]

i agree

xray ra

04-22-2008, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by johnielee333

i agree [/*]

Hey johnielee, Congrats on being a SENIOR MEMBER:beer:

I sure wish you were a fly on the wall at that ranch!!!:)

walton

04-22-2008, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Can you please post the links to those stats ?
I can't imagine that government employees would know more about a family than the family themself.
CPS isn't above lying to cover up their mistakes. [/*]

evalles,

I might have missed it but do YOU have any stats concerning the CPS in Texas? Do YOU have first hand knowledge of each and every case worker that is handling this case?

Do you remember the whole thing about Where is Waldo?
Picture the scene now bring into the compound. Which one would you have picked to be the abused?

Which one would you say looks like someone who would be a person that would be an abuser? Do they look a certain way? Are they tall or are they short? Fat or thin? Male or Female?

Should they have left all the children there and just asked someone to step forward?

Can you see deep inside someones soul to find an empty spot?

Have you looked inside the mind of someone who has been mentally or physically abused? Do they have brown hair or do they have blonde hair?

Have you ever heard the cries of a child that has been horsewhipped by his own mother and whispers " stop mom" I love you mom?

Have you seen a child that is covered by black and blue marks so much so that you can not see the true color of his skin?
All because he wouldn't carry water from the well fast enough?

Thank God ( anyones God) that CPS came into play for these people. Thank God again that they live to tell THEIR story.

Not every agency is 100% top of the line. But I think the ones you should be mad at are the ones that won't do a damn thing.

Complain about the cops in the Utah and Arizona area.

Complain about the Politicans that have let this go on for so long.

But in my honest opinion I don't think you should complain about a group of people that are trying to do their job.

jmo

evalles

04-22-2008, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by johnielee333

i hope the foster parents are good to them. they dont need any more abuse. [/*]

CPS thinks it's ok to place children in gay foster homes, do you think these children can handle that, given their upbringing.

walton

04-22-2008, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by xray ra

Hey johnielee, Congrats on being a SENIOR MEMBER:beer:

I sure wish you were a fly on the wall at that ranch!!!:) [/*]

fly on the wall? :eek:

Is that you johnielee?

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by Carol25

Evalles, I think there were no accusations of abuse because their definition of abuse is different. When they put very young children under water faucets until they stop crying, it's not abuse...it's discipline. When they lock them in closets for long periods of time without food or a chance to relieve themselves, they call it discipline. We don't. [/*]

right. thats what they are taught. its just discipline to them because they dont know what abuse is. they need to be taught what abuse is. this is sad & i do look at these women as victims but they need to relize what they do & have allowed to happen is wrong & stop it. the state, i feel needs to really come down on them but at the same time be there to help show them that the FLDS way of life is wrong. the things they are teaching & telling them is wrong.

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by evalles

That children are abused in foster care also and that the government doesn't always know best. [/*]

i agree but i was in a foster home when i was 10 for about 6 month & i didnt get abused. i believe there are alot of good foster families in the USA but there are also a few bad one's too. i just hope they get put in the good one's. i'll be praying for these children.

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 01:13 AM

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Do you know them personally or is this based on what you've learned from the media ? [/*]

i learned everything from watching and listening to the women,men,reading all i can about the FLDS,listening to the women,men & the lost boys that got out & yes some of the media. the mothers speak as if they really believe what they are saying, so to me they dont relize when they agree to give their teenage daughter to a man much older, that its wrong. but they are saying giving the girls up to these men so thats makes the abusers as well. they are victims. and they are abusers without really knowing they are.

evalles

04-22-2008, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by walton

evalles,

I might have missed it but do YOU have any stats concerning the CPS in Texas? Do YOU have first hand knowledge of each and every case worker that is handling this case?

Do you remember the whole thing about Where is Waldo?
Picture the scene now bring into the compound. Which one would you have picked to be the abused?

Which one would you say looks like someone who would be a person that would be an abuser? Do they look a certain way? Are they tall or are they short? Fat or thin? Male or Female?

Should they have left all the children there and just asked someone to step forward?

Can you see deep inside someones soul to find an empty spot?

Have you looked inside the mind of someone who has been mentally or physically abused? Do they have brown hair or do they have blonde hair?

Have you ever heard the cries of a child that has been horsewhipped by his own mother and whispers " stop mom" I love you mom?

Have you seen a child that is covered by black and blue marks so much so that you can not see the true color of his skin?
All because he wouldn't carry water from the well fast enough?

Thank God ( anyones God) that CPS came into play for these people. Thank God again that they live to tell THEIR story.

Not every agency is 100% top of the line. But I think the ones you should be mad at are the ones that won't do a damn thing.

Complain about the cops in the Utah and Arizona area.

Complain about the Politicans that have let this go on for so long.

But in my honest opinion I don't think you should complain about a group of people that are trying to do their job.

jmo [/*]

When someone is making statements that they claim are facts, they should be able to back it up. Unless I can back up what I'm saying, its an opinion.

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by xray ra

Hey johnielee, Congrats on being a SENIOR MEMBER:beer:

I sure wish you were a fly on the wall at that ranch!!!:) [/*]

hey thanks ! :beer:
yeah i wish i was the fly on the wall everywhere !
i would really love to interview these women,children,the lost boys & men.

evalles

04-22-2008, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by tirante

Where did you get this? [/*]

I'll find the link tomorrow (I'm going to bed) I think it was the ACLU that accomplished this, but it's been deemed a violation of civil rights to not allow homosexuals to be foster parents.

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by evalles

CPS thinks it's ok to place children in gay foster homes, do you think these children can handle that, given their upbringing. [/*]

well first of all, i believe it is fine to place kids in a foster home of gay parents as long as its a good home with good people.
second of all, i believe they are gonna try their best to find a place that will suit their needs. if that means putting them in a home with loving parents then thats what they'll do, no matter what. i am sure they will check these foster partents out really good.

evalles

04-22-2008, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by tirante

I did not ask, "the children", about what a "family" is, I asked YOU! What is a family? Direct Q to YOU! [/*]

My idea of a family is a mother, a father and siblings.

Happy ?

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by walton

fly on the wall? :eek:

Is that you johnielee? [/*]

YEP ! :biggrin:

evalles

04-22-2008, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by johnielee333

well first of all, i believe it is fine to place kids in a foster home of gay parents as long as its a good home with good people.
second of all, i believe they are gonna try their best to find a place that will suit their needs. if that means putting them in a home with loving parents then thats what they'll do, no matter what. i am sure they will check these foster partents out really good. [/*]

Maybe some kids, but I don't think these kids.
Total culture shock.
Then again, depending on the foster parent's actions in front of the kids, IMO they might not even realize it.

lotty

04-22-2008, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Maybe some kids, but I don't think these kids.
Total culture shock.
Then again, depending on the foster parent's actions in front of the kids, IMO they might not even realize it. [/*]

Winston Blackmore has two wives that legally married in Canada last year. They already lived together and there are speculations as to why they married. IMO the children probably have no clue, or maybe they do. I don't know.

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by evalles

I'll find the link tomorrow (I'm going to bed) I think it was the ACLU that accomplished this, but it's been deemed a violation of civil rights to not allow homosexuals to be foster parents. [/*]

I think its just fine. i think as long as people have a clean home,no mental or criminal record or issues,good income & are proven to be loving & caring people who have good value's then it should not matter.

walton

04-22-2008, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by johnielee333

YEP ! :biggrin: [/*]

:) Thanks.

johnielee333

04-22-2008, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by walton

:) Thanks. [/*]

:beer: :seeya:

Details

04-22-2008, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Can you please post the links to those stats ?
I can't imagine that government employees would know more about a family than the family themself.
CPS isn't above lying to cover up their mistakes. [/*]Nor are abusive parents. Although they don't generally see what they do as a mistake.

As to the link - per FLDS escapees, pretty darn close to 100% of the kids are abused. Even the most pessimistic link (and I think you posted it) only say 1/3 of foster kids are abused. 33% versus 100% - the math is easy.

juliekan

04-22-2008, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
The children are being sent to places throughout the state. We are getting a group of them here in this county. They are going to a place called "Kidz Harbor". From what I know about the people running this place, the children will be in a strictly religious surroundings. This is good because that is what they are used to. The lady that cleans my house used to clean the house of the couple who own or run Kidz Harbor. I undestand they are Apostolic in faith. I would hope they could find a Mormon home also, because too much change would not be good for children who are removed from the only home they have ever known. [/*]
Did you know that they are moving the kids NOW? Links are on daily thread.

evalles

04-22-2008, 08:25 PM

I just read a post from cpswatch@yahoogroups.com

Very Sad day today.

All of the younger children were moved. The mother's were kept locked in the facility, including two attorney's who were locked against there will for 3 hours. The mother's are still there with no contact to the outside world.

The mother's were not allowed to use the phones that were installed as per court order.

This case just keeps getting worse.

Additionally, the mothers who are pregnant were informed that their unborn children will be taken at birth.

KatyDid

04-22-2008, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by evalles
I just read a post from cpswatch@yahoogroups.com

Very Sad day today.

All of the younger children were moved. The mother's were kept locked in the facility, including two attorney's who were locked against there will for 3 hours. The mother's are still there with no contact to the outside world.

The mother's were not allowed to use the phones that were installed as per court order.

This case just keeps getting worse.

Additionally, the mothers who are pregnant were informed that their unborn children will be taken at birth. [/*]

Did the person that posted that information also include a link to where they read it?

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9014979

Earlier today, the coliseum and adjacent pavilion were under lockdown. Attorneys, Salvation Army workers and even a spokesman for Texas Child Protective Services were kept out.

evalles

04-22-2008, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Did the person that posted that information also include a link to where they read it?

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9014979

Earlier today, the coliseum and adjacent pavilion were under lockdown. Attorneys, Salvation Army workers and even a spokesman for Texas Child Protective Services were kept out. [/*]
I'll see if I can find out.

On the same site, I also read a post that I'm not sure I agree with but does make a point.
__________________________________________________ __
How do we defend any of the parents whose children are spiritually married under the age of 16. Especially if they are pregnant and/or already have children?

The poster responded
The same way the public schools do. My 13 year old son was given condom at school, by teachers. Is that not "indoctrinating" him into having sex with a 13 year old girl? And couldn't she bcome pregnant? But her responsible mother is expected to put her on birth control - and this IS ACCEPTABLE.

They can't use the "sexual from birth" teaching when it benefits them and ignore it now. I mean honestly, next we'll be required to have all our teens on birth control.

JD1974

04-23-2008, 01:22 PM

If your neighbor gets their kids taken away for abuse, should you too, just in case?

Rainkiss

04-23-2008, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by JD1974
If your neighbor gets their kids taken away for abuse, should you too, just in case? [/*]

Of course not... unless my neighbor and I share an address, and neither my neighbor or I, OR any of our kids will say which kids belong to which of us, and nobody has any paperwork to prove which kids belong in which house.

Shell0724

04-23-2008, 09:25 PM

I personally believe that the mothers are perpetrators, even if they are brainwashed. They are as guilty of abuse as the husbands and men, even worse, because a mother's job is to protect and nurture her children. Some of these *men* <cough> have dozens of kids, and their one-to-one interaction with the kids isn't as influential as the women's. It's the women who are fostering these Stepford-kids and raising their girls to be sex objects at adolescence's first peak. IMO

The women offend me worse than the men. If these women would take a stand, their male kids wouldn't be (allegedly) run-off to make room for dirty old men, and their husbands wouldn't be (allegedly) raping the daughters, or (allegedly) giving them to other old men to rape and impregnate.

The entire cult makes me want to puke.

Our culture is far too PC and multicultural to outright condemn these horrible mothers, when the blame (I believe) rests mainly on their abusive shoulders.

I think they love their kids, but, that doesn't excuse their abuse. JMO

Take the kids away and put those women in jail for child abuse and I'll be happy.

evalles

04-23-2008, 09:54 PM

Details

04-23-2008, 09:56 PM

What if they had the same husband, and the husband was the one abusing the kids?

That's closest to this situation. All of the women live under the same absolute dictator, the same person who is abusing children by forcing marriages on underage girls, throwing out underage boys.

evalles

04-23-2008, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by tirante

What if you tried to understand the intent of a post? [/*]

I understand perfectly. I figured that one flip answer meant to criticize the poster deserved another.
I don't think anyone is saying that this cult is healthy.
My view is that if 80 percent of the mothers were willing participants in any kind of abuse,that leaves 20 innocent being persecuted. The mother of Jeff's niece finally had the courage to escape,but not before her kids were abused and I still think she's a hero. She had to overcome her upbringing.

KatyDid

04-24-2008, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by essiemadge

walton you have educated many posters on these boards including me. but, i think you cannot educate someone who has a hobbyhorse of their own. there should be a separate board for someone who wants to have all cps and all foster homes investigated, but this is not the place for that.
anyone have any info into how many adult men and women who have turned up for the dna tests??? [/*]

This says 500 samples taken from the children. It isn't specific about the parents. Just says technicians are still taking samples from the parents.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD907NH3O0

evalles

04-24-2008, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by essiemadge

walton you have educated many posters on these boards including me. but, i think you cannot educate someone who has a hobbyhorse of their own. there should be a separate board for someone who wants to have all cps and all foster homes investigated, but this is not the place for that.
anyone have any info into how many adult men and women who have turned up for the dna tests??? [/*]

This post is called
Are the children better with CPS or with their mothers?
Isn't this the place to discuss CPS and why you feel they should or should not be w/ them ?
A hobbyhorse like all parents are abusers and all CPS are good, honest people.

evalles

04-24-2008, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by essiemadge

walton you have educated many posters on these boards including me. but, i think you cannot educate someone who has a hobbyhorse of their own. there should be a separate board for someone who wants to have all cps and all foster homes investigated, but this is not the place for that.
anyone have any info into how many adult men and women who have turned up for the dna tests??? [/*]

Again, I'm not complaining about the ones that do their jobs, I'm complaining about the ones that don't.
There are bad parents, there are bad CPS workers, but bad CPS can destroy entire families.
You have kicked my OCD into overdrive and I will have as many links to Texas CPS statistics tomorrow as I can find.
Maybe I'll find something that'll change my mind.
I don't think you can change your mind, regardless of what's put in front of you.

Shell0724

04-24-2008, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Details
What if they had the same husband, and the husband was the one abusing the kids?

That's closest to this situation. All of the women live under the same absolute dictator, the same person who is abusing children by forcing marriages on underage girls, throwing out underage boys. [/*]

I would accept that these women are hostages BEFORE they had the opportunity to escape this nightmare.

The little group paraded before the media seem to be advocates for their way of life, and even if they're indoctrinated, at some point, they become perpetrators.

How many child molesters were molested in their youth? Once they mature, they have the faculties to weigh good and bad, right and wrong, even with a powerfully compelling power structure in this cult.

I believe corporal punishment was part of their doctrine, for both men and women to control their kids, and the wives seem to be every bit as culpable as the men. JMO

Rainkiss

04-24-2008, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by evalles

I understand perfectly. I figured that one flip answer meant to criticize the poster deserved another.
I don't think anyone is saying that this cult is healthy.
My view is that if 80 percent of the mothers were willing participants in any kind of abuse,that leaves 20 innocent being persecuted. The mother of Jeff's niece finally had the courage to escape,but not before her kids were abused and I still think she's a hero. She had to overcome her upbringing. [/*]

Actually, that wasn't a flip answer. It was pointing out that your situation and the one we're discussing here are two completely different stories, by describing the situation at the ranch. In a serious discussion, I DO try to avoid flip answers.

It's entirely possible that some of the mothers are innocent of abusing their children. It's also possible that there are children there who have never actually been abused.

However, the investigation is ongoing, and would you run the risk of returning a child who HAS been being abused, or who is already marked as being the next thirteen year old girl to be "married off" and molested?

And, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but CPS has to have parents to whom they return the children. They can't just drop 'em off at an address. They don't KNOW who the parents of most (if not ALL) of the children are, until the DNA testing is complete.

evalles

04-24-2008, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Actually, that wasn't a flip answer. It was pointing out that your situation and the one we're discussing here are two completely different stories, by describing the situation at the ranch. In a serious discussion, I DO try to avoid flip answers.

It's entirely possible that some of the mothers are innocent of abusing their children. It's also possible that there are children there who have never actually been abused.

However, the investigation is ongoing, and would you run the risk of returning a child who HAS been being abused, or who is already marked as being the next thirteen year old girl to be "married off" and molested?

And, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but CPS has to have parents to whom they return the children. They can't just drop 'em off at an address. They don't KNOW who the parents of most (if not ALL) of the children are, until the DNA testing is complete. [/*]

Now that they have them, they'd be liable if they returned them to the wrong parent. I really have a strong dislike for most of the men. I thought one out of the 3 on TV seemed sincere. The other 2 seemed slow, IMO. I don't really care for some of the older mothers either. I think the younger ones can be reformed.

Rainkiss

04-24-2008, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Now that they have them, they'd be liable if they returned them to the wrong parent. I really have a strong dislike for most of the men. I thought one out of the 3 on TV seemed sincere. The other 2 seemed slow, IMO. I don't really care for some of the older mothers either. I think the younger ones can be reformed. [/*]

I think they can, if they WANT to be reformed. That's going to be the hitch. I'd be willing to bet at least most of them have been so heavily indoctrinated into the FLDS belief system that convincing them that their prophet isn't the word of God is going to be difficult.

It might actually be the ones who are a little older that may be easier to reform... The women who remember what it was like BEFORE Warren Jeffs came into power and started making changes (including lowering the age of the young women to be "married" off). The younger ones have never known anything different.

What they really need is exposure to the concept that Different does not equal Evil.

evalles

04-24-2008, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

I think they can, if they WANT to be reformed. That's going to be the hitch. I'd be willing to bet at least most of them have been so heavily indoctrinated into the FLDS belief system that convincing them that their prophet isn't the word of God is going to be difficult.

It might actually be the ones who are a little older that may be easier to reform... The women who remember what it was like BEFORE Warren Jeffs came into power and started making changes (including lowering the age of the young women to be "married" off). The younger ones have never known anything different.

What they really need is exposure to the concept that Different does not equal Evil. [/*]

Jeff's niece said that the women were punished for disobedience.
It's reasonable to believe that some woment wanted to leave but were afraid that they or their children would be hurt.

Details

04-24-2008, 03:11 PM

They've said that FLDS moves children around frequently, between compounds - IMO, to diminish the maternal bond that might lead a mother to protect her child. The mothers could well be afraid for their other children that are not at the compound, the men, Jeffs, could be threatening them if the women step out of line. But with so many decades of abuse, sometimes you don't even have to make the threats anymore - the victim knows - step out of line, the punishment will be severe and unbearable.

Rainkiss

04-24-2008, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Jeff's niece said that the women were punished for disobedience.
It's reasonable to believe that some woment wanted to leave but were afraid that they or their children would be hurt. [/*]

Entirely possible... However, they all went back to the ranch, rather than to the women's shelter they were offered. The children weren't there for the leaders to hurt, and THEY weren't there. I think a few went to the shelter briefly, but went back to the ranch shortly after. (Three seems to be the magic number, or is it just me? Three women doing the talking, three men talking, three men giving DNA, three women going to the shelter...)

I haven't had any experience with deprogramming... But is it possible to deprogram a member of a cult if they're still IN the group? Or to change the thinking of an entire subculture?

Devotion

04-24-2008, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Details

They've said that FLDS moves children around frequently, between compounds -

IMO, to diminish the maternal bond that might lead a mother to protect her child. [/*]

Details, good points as usual.

Because the children are moved frequently between compounds,
is a GOOD reason that ALL childrens' DNA (from every compound ) should be taken....and compared.

WHAT IF: each compound in different States, are drawing welfare checks on the same children???

I see the leaders of this cult using FEAR to control the women and children ...jmo

xray ra

04-24-2008, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by Details
They've said that FLDS moves children around frequently, between compounds - IMO, to diminish the maternal bond that might lead a mother to protect her child. The mothers could well be afraid for their other children that are not at the compound, the men, Jeffs, could be threatening them if the women step out of line. But with so many decades of abuse, sometimes you don't even have to make the threats anymore - the victim knows - step out of line, the punishment will be severe and unbearable. [/*]

OMG, Details, Just catching up here (and there). I never even thought of that aspect. There might be many, many children (biological) of these women in other areas of the country.

If they did anything like try to get away now, they might NEVER get to see their other children again. They are definately between a rock and a hard place. Maybe the Feds can get involved (for interstate criminal activity?) and demand DNA tests for children in other known FDLS communities.

What a mess!

:no:

Rainkiss

04-25-2008, 06:49 AM

Well, the good news is, they're in the spotlight now, and the authorities in other states will know that Texas has begun collecting DNA. I'm sure, should there be cause to raid a compound in another state, they'll share information, and see what can be unearthed.

evalles

04-25-2008, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by xray ra

OMG, Details, Just catching up here (and there). I never even thought of that aspect. There might be many, many children (biological) of these women in other areas of the country.

If they did anything like try to get away now, they might NEVER get to see their other children again. They are definately between a rock and a hard place. Maybe the Feds can get involved (for interstate criminal activity?) and demand DNA tests for children in other known FDLS communities.

What a mess!

:no: [/*]

I hadn't thought of that either.
The mother of Jeff's niece wasn't able to rescue all her children, was she ?
If their kids are on the other compounds, how can they even prove they're theirs with no documents.

Rainkiss

04-25-2008, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by evalles

I hadn't thought of that either.
The mother of Jeff's niece wasn't able to rescue all her children, was she ?
If their kids are on the other compounds, how can they even prove they're theirs with no documents. [/*]

DNA testing. They need to speak up and ask for help confirming the identity of their children.

I can't imagine one of those women coming forward, saying anything along the lines of, "I want to tell you everything, but they have three of my children in Utah. Help me get them safe," and being turned down.

And, I expect, a mother stating that "they have my child" would be enough to spark a search of the other compounds.

evalles

04-25-2008, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

DNA testing. They need to speak up and ask for help confirming the identity of their children.

I can't imagine one of those women coming forward, saying anything along the lines of, "I want to tell you everything, but they have three of my children in Utah. Help me get them safe," and being turned down.

And, I expect, a mother stating that "they have my child" would be enough to spark a search of the other compounds. [/*]

No , but who knows what they've been told. What if they do have them in another country.What if the mothers don't even know where they are.

Rainkiss

04-25-2008, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by evalles

No , but who knows what they've been told. What if they do have them in another country.What if the mothers don't even know where they are. [/*]

You're right, it's scary all around. It's very possible they don't, they could be at the compounds in Canada, Mexico, who knows?

Glad2CU

04-26-2008, 08:09 PM

I can't help but wonder what other FLDS compounds are doing at this very moment to protect themselves from government agencies arriving on their doorsteps eventually?

If the children are moved from compound to compound, it will probably be only a matter of time before the investigations lead to another compound to try to resolve this case.

They live seemingly simple lives, but when it comes to protecting their "men" (or poor excuses thereof) they have become pretty savvy it seems to me. I'll bet all sorts of plans and contingency plans are being put into place as we post today.

JMO.

Glad2CU

04-26-2008, 08:14 PM

I read on this thread somewhere that the children are not permitted to cry or laugh. Can anyone tell me why these rules are in place?

It was also mentioned that the children have been placed in religious foster care, including Apostolic (not sure of that spelling). Can anyone tell me anything about that denomination, as I have not heard of it.

Thanks!

lotty

04-27-2008, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by Glad2CU
I read on this thread somewhere that the children are not permitted to cry or laugh. Can anyone tell me why these rules are in place?

It was also mentioned that the children have been placed in religious foster care, including Apostolic (not sure of that spelling). Can anyone tell me anything about that denomination, as I have not heard of it.

Thanks! [/*]

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_3805407
Warren Jeffs profile: Thou shalt obey
Since succeeding his father as FLDS leader in 2002, Warren Jeffs has tightened the grip on his followers in part by casting out "sinners"
Brooke Adams
© 2004 The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 08/30/2007 02:38:56 PM MDT
"And people have been warned that laughter causes the spirit of God to leak from their bodies, amplifying an obscure tenet in Joseph Smith's Doctrine and Covenants.
"We tried not to laugh," Draper said. "We wondered 'How do we do this? Is there anyone who is going to make it?' "
He recalls telling his wife, "Gee, LeighAnn, all we can do is eat."

gemsbmw

04-27-2008, 09:53 AM

Mothers if they know who the REAL mothers are and OFF the ranch!

JD1974

04-27-2008, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Of course not... unless my neighbor and I share an address, and neither my neighbor or I, OR any of our kids will say which kids belong to which of us, and nobody has any paperwork to prove which kids belong in which house. [/*]

Personally, I think the govt. should have proof before removing any child. The take first ask questions later is bull. You don't think these mothers know who their own children are? BTW to get welfare for those kids you HAVE to have a birth certificate, so apparently if all these women were receiving public assistance, there IS paperwork.

Just so no one gets the wrong impression, if any of those kids are being abused they should be taken, my problem is the govt. didn't wait for any proof, just came and took the kids. Even mothers who live in cult type settings do not deserve to get their children taken away, unless they are abused.

walton

04-28-2008, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by JD1974

Personally, I think the govt. should have proof before removing any child. The take first ask questions later is bull. You don't think these mothers know who their own children are? BTW to get welfare for those kids you HAVE to have a birth certificate, so apparently if all these women were receiving public assistance, there IS paperwork.

Just so no one gets the wrong impression, if any of those kids are being abused they should be taken, my problem is the govt. didn't wait for any proof, just came and took the kids. Even mothers who live in cult type settings do not deserve to get their children taken away, unless they are abused. [/*]

When a child reaches towards a flame do you wait for proof that the child will indeed burn their hand or do you pull the childs reaching hand away from the flame?

walton

04-28-2008, 12:30 AM

Freebird

04-28-2008, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Glad2CU
I can't help but wonder what other FLDS compounds are doing at this very moment to protect themselves from government agencies arriving on their doorsteps eventually?

If the children are moved from compound to compound, it will probably be only a matter of time before the investigations lead to another compound to try to resolve this case.

They live seemingly simple lives, but when it comes to protecting their "men" (or poor excuses thereof) they have become pretty savvy it seems to me. I'll bet all sorts of plans and contingency plans are being put into place as we post today.

JMO. [/*]

Probably getting their weapons ready.I think if this happens again,it will be another Waco.I doubt any other compound will just let their kids be removed as easily as this one did.

Details

04-28-2008, 04:13 AM

To expand this to the Arlington apartments, you need to add several factors. First - the police go to the apartments, ask some men there if there is a girl named "Sally" - and they say no, even though there are several girls named "Sally". When they go to look for her a little, all of the residents start shuffling all the kids around, trying to prevent the police from being able to find Sally - the residents all work together.

In looking though, the police can't help but notice all the underage mothers and pregnant girls. They check it out, find out that there's this gang that controls the complex, prostitutes the girls out to varying gang members, kicks those kids out of the complex onto the street if they don't look to be suitable for the gang - this happens no matter what the mother of the children in question want. At least - that's what the police have been hearing from those who have left the complex. The pregnant girls seem to confirm this, and the records the gang keeps confirm it even more.

Yep - no religion, and if it's the same situation, LE would be in the same situation of needing to take all of the children, give all of the women the chance to escape the gang.

evalles

04-28-2008, 02:24 PM

evalles

04-28-2008, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Freebird

Probably getting their weapons ready.I think if this happens again,it will be another Waco.I doubt any other compound will just let their kids be removed as easily as this one did. [/*]

ITA

evalles

04-28-2008, 03:35 PM

Someone had previously asked me to post statistics on Texas CPS/Foster Care but the info I found was hard for me to understand.

This was much clearer and more disturbing.

She works for Texas.

Comptroller Strayhorn Statement
On Foster Care Abuse
Friday, June 23, 2006'

One of her findings
"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.
If you think this is scary, wait til you read the rest.
It gets worse. Much worse.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html

evalles

04-28-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
And just who do you think the state should turn those children over to? The cult members are refusing to identify what child belongs to who. I notice the possibility that the little girls were being used as brood mares for dirty old men does not bother some of you as much as some "poor mother whose children were taken away". Haven't you heard?....the authorities are having a problem with anyone even identifying a child as being theirs. When it comes to children who are unable to speak for themselves or defend themselves, I am perfectly alright with LE erring on the side of safety for the child. Let's have some DNA tests....that should clear things up.....right? No way should LE turn a child over to ANYONE who cannot prove that the child is theirs. [/*]

Did you find the comptrollers report disturbing ?
She's a Texas citizen
According to Wikipedia - Strayhorn is notable for several "firsts" in Austin and Texas politics. She is the first woman elected as mayor of Austin and the first Austin mayor elected to three consecutive terms. She was the first woman elected to the Texas Railroad Commission and the first woman elected as comptroller. She also was the first woman to serve as president of the Austin school board and as president of the Austin Community College board.

I've heard several mothers on TV talking about their specific children, why can't they give theirs back ?
We know for a fact that these children don't belong to the people CPS has given them to (and they don't have to prove anything), who are in fact strangers to the children.

evalles

04-28-2008, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

Flawed analogy for a number of reasons, a few of which Details addressed.

Another of the reasons - which the 'give the kids back to the cult' crowd here seems to avoid at every turn - is that comparing lifestyles and families in regular American neighborhoods or apartment complexes to the lifestyle of a group of people who live behind the walls of a cult compound is no comparison at all.

In regular American neighborhoods, housing developments, apartment complexes and so forth, each family is individual - with its own individual lifestyle. There is no particular doctrine that any two families in a typical American neighborhood follows. Living side-by-side in a neighborhood or apartment building is for the most part a matter of logistics - not a matter of having deliberately chosen to live on a street or in a building with people who believe and behave in an identical fashion.

The very reason all those people are behind those YFZ walls is because they share EXACTLY the same beliefs and follow the word of EXACTLY the same prophet - a very seriously flawed mortal man who promotes child abuse.

Whether or not every single adult man and woman living in that compound is currently engaged in child abuse isn't the issue. The issue is that by virtue of their residence behind those walls, they demonstrate their obedience to the way and rule of their child abusing and molesting convict prophet.

It's conceivable that a handful of the men and women in question will never engage in child abuse first-hand. However, because they live behind those walls and follow the same teachings and lifestyle, their children will be subject to the whims of all the other adults in that compound.

There are no 'lines in the sand' in that place, no point at which a parent has the right to - or apparently, even wants to - put his or her foot down and refuse to obey a demand from the group having to do with their children. That's the very reason they live behind those walls - to submit, obey, do the bidding of the prophet and his followers. They don't live there to be independent in their thinking and behaviors.

That is why EVERY child in that compound is at risk, regardless of who her parents are or with whom she resides. THAT is why no child could be left there until 'investigations' are complete. And IMO, that is why no child should be returned there. It may very well happen, but it will be a dark day in my book. [/*]

__________________________________________________ __
Whether or not every single adult man and woman living in that compound is currently engaged in child abuse isn't the issue.
__________________________________________________ __

It's not ? Then why would they take the children of every single adult man and woman ?

KatyDid

04-28-2008, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Did you find the comptrollers report disturbing ?
She's a Texas citizen
According to Wikipedia - Strayhorn is notable for several "firsts" in Austin and Texas politics. She is the first woman elected as mayor of Austin and the first Austin mayor elected to three consecutive terms. She was the first woman elected to the Texas Railroad Commission and the first woman elected as comptroller. She also was the first woman to serve as president of the Austin school board and as president of the Austin Community College board.

I've heard several mothers on TV talking about their specific children, why can't they give theirs back ?
We know for a fact that these children don't belong to the people CPS has given them to (and they don't have to prove anything), who are in fact strangers to the children. [/*]

Could it be because the women are only talking about their children and not proving they are their children? Plus, the women have to prove the child is not in danger of being married as a teen.

Child Protective Services does not have to prove they are the child's biological parent. The child is placed with these people to avoid the further possibility of abuse in the environment they were taken from.

Are these mothers willing to answer the same qualifying questions as the foster parents? So far, they haven't.

evalles

04-28-2008, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Could it be because the women are only talking about their children and not proving they are their children? Plus, the women have to prove the child is not in danger of being married as a teen.

Child Protective Services does not have to prove they are the child's biological parent. The child is placed with these people to avoid the further possibility of abuse in the environment they were taken from.

Are these mothers willing to answer the same qualifying questions as the foster parents? So far, they haven't. [/*]

Unless you're involved in the investigation, this isn't fact.

I don't think Texas CPS has room to preach about honesty.

The Texas Comptroller reports that "repeated and continuing roadblocks and stonewalling have been encountered by me and my staff in attempting to secure basic and necessary data from the Health and Human Services Commission to complete my investigation"

evalles

04-28-2008, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by CAT TOY
while i voted CPS, poll should be are the children safer in foster care, or with their mothers. IT's not cps who has these kids. They are now wards of the states the mothers, or fathers whoever THEY are dont have custody. Because, custody could not be determined, even by the DNA tests....

I think they are safer, in foster care and will be deprogrammed and have a better chance at a normal life, than if they stayed in a cult.

CT [/*]

CPS approves the foster homes and decides when/if a child is going to be moved. Ultimately, the state is responsible for the kids. They're calling the shots.

evalles

04-28-2008, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

I answered that in the same post you quoted. But as usual, you are filtering out all the facts of THIS case in order to keep up your anti-CPS stance. You will allow no amount of information - no matter how much or how detailed about the circumstances of THIS case - to sway you. This anti-CPS crusade of yours is clearly working for you, but I don't think you're swaying the opinion of most of the rest of us here.

Whatever. Carry on. [/*]

I didn't know we'd heard all the facts in the case.
My post had to do with the fact that while all the parents might not be guilty of abuse, all the children have been taken.
Again this board is comparing CPS and parents, so I have every right to voice my opinions, which I will continue to do.
Did you see the facts in the comptrollers report.
Per Carole Keeton Strayhorn:
"I found, from information provided by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, in Fiscal 2003, 30 foster children died in our state's care; in Fiscal 2004, 38 foster children died; and in Fiscal 2005, 48 foster children died.
Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.

"As alarming as these cases are, we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation.
"Data shows that while the number of foster children in our state's care increased 24 percent from 26,133 in Fiscal 2003 to 32,474 in Fiscal 2005, the number of deaths increased 60 percent.

I haven't ignored the evidence against the FLDS, but how do you justify or ignore the above facts ?
Do you think the parents that haven't abused their children and who have provided evidence of maternity/paternity should continue to be separated from their children ?

Details

04-28-2008, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by evalles
__________________________________________________
Whether or not every single adult man and woman living in that compound is currently engaged in child abuse isn't the issue.
__________________________________________________ __

It's not ? Then why would they take the children of every single adult man and woman ? [/*]For the exact reason given in the next lines that you quoted:The issue is that by virtue of their residence behind those walls, they demonstrate their obedience to the way and rule of their child abusing and molesting convict prophet.

It's conceivable that a handful of the men and women in question will never engage in child abuse first-hand. However, because they live behind those walls and follow the same teachings and lifestyle, their children will be subject to the whims of all the other adults in that compound.I could add that according to women who have escaped, even if the parents wanted to leave, there are plenty who say that is not allowed - a man who disagrees is kicked out - but his wives are not allowed to so leave, they are reassigned to another man, along with his children. Living there, they have no choice, no voice in saying No to child abuse.

There's a father who lost his children exactly that way who has been interviewed at least once, hoping this might give a chance for him to at least see his children again.

Details

04-28-2008, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by evalles
...Comptroller Strayhorn Statement
On Foster Care Abuse
Friday, June 23, 2006'

One of her findings
"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.
If you think this is scary, wait til you read the rest.
It gets worse. Much worse.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html [/*]I read the link you provided. You want to compare the rates of underage pregnancy in the foster care system to that of the FLDS? The death rate would be interesting too, given the children's graveyards LE is so far not looking into.

The stats on that are not so simple as that link would like to pretend - an abused child unfortunately has problems that make them quite vulnerable to pedophiles or peers asking for sex - I notice the stat there doesn't say the caregiver was the father, nor does it say the caregiver was the rapist - rape and pregnancy within the foster care system, within a set of girls who are more likely to have been abused, makes a comparison to all girls simply inaccurate, irrelevant.

Might as well compare the crime rate of nuns to that of the general population, and conclude that wearing black dresses prevents people from becoming criminals. Or compare the mortality in the infant ICU to all infants born in the hospital, and conclude that the infant ICU is killing babies.

Likewise for medications to help a troubled child, likewise for a lot of things. Doesn't mean there aren't abuses - but you have to compare apples to apples. Comparing the health and wellbeing of abused and neglected children to that of all children - it's no surprise that the abused and neglected have a much greater rate of many different types of problems.

Roux

04-28-2008, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Details
For the exact reason given in the next lines that you quoted:I could add that according to women who have escaped, even if the parents wanted to leave, there are plenty who say that is not allowed - a man who disagrees is kicked out - but his wives are not allowed to so leave, they are reassigned to another man, along with his children. Living there, they have no choice, no voice in saying No to child abuse.

There's a father who lost his children exactly that way who has been interviewed at least once, hoping this might give a chance for him to at least see his children again. [/*]

Notice how the posters who are so outraged about the cruelty of CPS and so strongly against removing children from mothers have never said a word, at least that I have read, condemning the FLDS and Warren Jeffs for ripping families apart.

KatyDid

04-28-2008, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Unless you're involved in the investigation, this isn't fact.

I don't think Texas CPS has room to preach about honesty.

The Texas Comptroller reports that "repeated and continuing roadblocks and stonewalling have been encountered by me and my staff in attempting to secure basic and necessary data from the Health and Human Services Commission to complete my investigation" [/*]

Well, if you want to gather all the information from FLDS abuses and stack them up against CPS abuses, that would be an apples to apples comparison. Anything else is just skewing the data, IMO.

cloe23

04-28-2008, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Glad2CU
I can't help but wonder what other FLDS compounds are doing at this very moment to protect themselves from government agencies arriving on their doorsteps eventually?

the children are moved from compound to compound, it will probably be only a matter of time before the investigations lead to another compound to try to resolve this case.

They live seemingly simple lives, but when it comes to protecting their "men" (or poor excuses thereof) they have become pretty savvy it seems to me. I'll bet all sorts of plans and contingency plans are being put into place as we post today.

JMO. [/*]
Excellent point! I bet that they are in addition to the cyanide plan they have plan to hide the children.
:chicken: But if I knew someone was coming after my children or maybe I would have a plan too. The plot just continues the thicken with this tragedy.

Edited for typing errors.........

evalles

04-28-2008, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Details
I read the link you provided. You want to compare the rates of underage pregnancy in the foster care system to that of the FLDS? The death rate would be interesting too, given the children's graveyards LE is so far not looking into.

The stats on that are not so simple as that link would like to pretend - an abused child unfortunately has problems that make them quite vulnerable to pedophiles or peers asking for sex - I notice the stat there doesn't say the caregiver was the father, nor does it say the caregiver was the rapist - rape and pregnancy within the foster care system, within a set of girls who are more likely to have been abused, makes a comparison to all girls simply inaccurate, irrelevant.

Might as well compare the crime rate of nuns to that of the general population, and conclude that wearing black dresses prevents people from becoming criminals. Or compare the mortality in the infant ICU to all infants born in the hospital, and conclude that the infant ICU is killing babies.

Likewise for medications to help a troubled child, likewise for a lot of things. Doesn't mean there aren't abuses - but you have to compare apples to apples. Comparing the health and wellbeing of abused and neglected children to that of all children - it's no surprise that the abused and neglected have a much greater rate of many different types of problems. [/*]

They shouldn't have a greater rate of abuse once they've been "saved".

evalles

04-28-2008, 05:51 PM

cloe23

04-28-2008, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Well, if you want to gather all the information from FLDS abuses and stack them up against CPS abuses, that would be an apples to apples comparison. Anything else is just skewing the data, IMO. [/*]

KatyDid:seeya:
Hi I just got on. I thought we were behaving???
:beer:
Save it for the spector case. I am practicing control with this case, I have such passion that I made a commitment to my self that I was not going to blog or lurk until after hubbie went to work. I did have one relapse just after lunch. But I only posted one thing and it was on a different case.
Anything exceptionally interesting I should be checking out?
Cloeeeeeeee:biggrin:

evalles

04-28-2008, 06:00 PM

According to Texas Comptroller ;

A five-year old boy in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape two days later.

"A 15-year old girl who was not pregnant when she entered our state's foster care system in May 2002 gave birth in February 2004.

"As reported by the media, a 12-year-old boy died in December 2005, while in our state's care at a facility that treats children with learning disabilities and emotional problems. The boy suffocated while being restrained from behind by an employee of the facility.

"Another boy in our state's care at the same facility died May 30, after drowning in a creek during a May 6 bicycle outing.

"A three-year old was treated for poisoning from an atypical, mind-altering antipsychotic drug. These drugs are not approved by the Food and Drug Administration for children under the age of 18 years old.

"I launched my investigation in November 2004, after my report, Forgotten Children, uncovered the fact that large numbers of psychotropic drugs are being prescribed to children in the foster care system, even though, according to the FDA, many of these drugs are not approved for children and have serious side effects such as suicidal tendencies, diabetes, and cardiac arrhythmia

"I launched my investigation in November 2004, after my report, Forgotten Children, uncovered the fact that large numbers of psychotropic drugs are being prescribed to children in the foster care system, even though, according to the FDA, many of these drugs are not approved for children and have serious side effects such as suicidal tendencies, diabetes, and cardiac arrhythmia

There were 29 foster children raped while in Texas's care in 2004.
13 were under 3 yrs old.

Under 3 years old !
In 2004, for all age groups, 63 Texas foster children were raped !!

Details

04-28-2008, 06:02 PM

Here we are - here's the data - FLDS:Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.Foster homes:Data shows that while the number of foster children in our state's care increased 24 percent from 26,133 in Fiscal 2003 to 32,474 in Fiscal 2005......142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system. So - FLDS - 58% underage pregnancy rate. Foster care - 0.26% pregnancy rate.

That's why you look at the data, at percentages, not just at numbers picked out of context to scare you. Now, you might have a case that this is a per year thing - but we're only talking about 4 years between 14 and 17, so if you multiply the foster care number by 4 years, you get all the way to a whole 1% pregnancy rate versus FLDS 58% pregnancy rate.

That's a huge difference.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428...vTxIra_5p.s0NUE

Details

04-28-2008, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by evalles
They shouldn't have a greater rate of abuse once they've been "saved". [/*]Who says they should? And who says they do? You've posted a link with very biased stats - the type of thing that proves the infant ICU causes babies to die. It's just wrong. 58% versus 1% - on the most provable abuse, the numbers once they've been saved are immensely, unbelievabley lower.

evalles

04-28-2008, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Details
Here we are - here's the data - FLDS:Foster homes:So - FLDS - 58% underage pregnancy rate. Foster care - 0.26% pregnancy rate.

That's why you look at the data, at percentages, not just at numbers picked out of context to scare you. Now, you might have a case that this is a per year thing - but we're only talking about 4 years between 14 and 17, so if you multiply the foster care number by 4 years, you get all the way to a whole 1% pregnancy rate versus FLDS 58% pregnancy rate.

That's a huge difference.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428...vTxIra_5p.s0NUE [/*]

This info is from a spokesman for CPS. The other was a study by a non- biased state agency.

I haven't seen that FLDS has raped any babies under 3, but 13 CPS approved TX foster parents did in 2004 alone.

Details

04-28-2008, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by evalles
According to Texas Comptroller ;

A five-year old boy in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape two days later.

"A 15-year old girl who was not pregnant when she entered our state's foster care system in May 2002 gave birth in February 2004.

"As reported by the media, a 12-year-old boy died in December 2005, while in our state's care at a facility that treats children with learning disabilities and emotional problems. The boy suffocated while being restrained from behind by an employee of the facility.

"Another boy in our state's care at the same facility died May 30, after drowning in a creek during a May 6 bicycle outing.

"A three-year old was treated for poisoning from an atypical, mind-altering antipsychotic drug. These drugs are not approved by the Food and Drug Administration for children under the age of 18 years old.

"I launched my investigation in November 2004, after my report, Forgotten Children, uncovered the fact that large numbers of psychotropic drugs are being prescribed to children in the foster care system, even though, according to the FDA, many of these drugs are not approved for children and have serious side effects such as suicidal tendencies, diabetes, and cardiac arrhythmia

"I launched my investigation in November 2004, after my report, Forgotten Children, uncovered the fact that large numbers of psychotropic drugs are being prescribed to children in the foster care system, even though, according to the FDA, many of these drugs are not approved for children and have serious side effects such as suicidal tendencies, diabetes, and cardiac arrhythmia

There were 29 foster children raped while in Texas's care in 2004.
13 were under 3 yrs old.

Under 3 years old !
In 2004, for all age groups, 63 Texas foster children were raped !! [/*]None of this is anything dissimilar from the FLDS - have you read Warren Jeffs nephew's story? He was raped too. Guess what - even children in normal homes are raped - it happens.

A bunch of single cases (for her one 15 year old giving birth, we've got the 16 year old with 4 children and pregnant with another - not even close to comparable), taken out of context (what is the percent on rape for the general population, how common are these drugs for troubled children, was the foster caregiver responsible, or was this an internet pedophile, a random school pedophile going for the easiest victim, etc.) don't mean anything other than that there are sad cases. But there are sad cases everywhere.

Really - how is this report different from the exact same thing that could be written up for the NICU at any hospital?

"In 2005, 185 infants were confined to the NICU, and 20 died! The death rate for infants not confined to the NICU was more than 4 times lower!" Anyone with a bone to pick can manipulate statistics, make a scary sounding story.

KatyDid

04-28-2008, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Details
Here we are - here's the data - FLDS:Foster homes:So - FLDS - 58% underage pregnancy rate. Foster care - 0.26% pregnancy rate.

That's why you look at the data, at percentages, not just at numbers picked out of context to scare you. Now, you might have a case that this is a per year thing - but we're only talking about 4 years between 14 and 17, so if you multiply the foster care number by 4 years, you get all the way to a whole 1% pregnancy rate versus FLDS 58% pregnancy rate.

That's a huge difference.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428...vTxIra_5p.s0NUE [/*]

:beer: That's what I'm talking about...a true apples to apples data comparison. Otherwise, the resulting argument doesn't hold water.

A person can take individual cases and say they represent the whole, when they do not. The only way to be fair about the argument is to put the numbers up against each other. I see CPS fairs seriously better than FLDS.

Thanks Details!

evalles

04-28-2008, 06:18 PM

I don't care about statistics, there is no excuse for 13 foster kids under 3 to be raped in one state in the same year. No justification.

Details

04-28-2008, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by evalles
This info is from a spokesman for CPS. The other was a study by a non- biased state agency.

I haven't seen that FLDS has raped any babies under 3, but 13 CPS approved TX foster parents did in 2004 alone. [/*]:lol:

You don't believe that any of the girls are pregnant? Because, guess what - to match the study you posted, if so much as one FLDS girl is or ever has been pregnant, their rate is still much higher than foster care. But the CPS info is stuff that is matched with court testimony of the girls who were pregnant at that time, and the records of the FLDS themselves. How many people can you think are lying before you consider maybe, just maybe, there's something here to open your eyes to.

Oh yeah, what FLDS does to babies under 3 is pretty horrendeous. I haven't seen your link to say what you claim there. If you're talking the graph - it says not a word about who raped the child. A sad truth of foster care that is difficult to manage is that when someone takes in numerous abused children, sometimes an older child will abuse the younger ones. Your links - none of them have talked of who did it - she likes to just say while under foster care - but not who and how. Could have been a visit from the parents who then abused the child, could have been another child, or could have been the foster parents. One thing though - notice that CPS keeps records to be able to find and stop these problems - as opposed to FLDS that endorses it's pedophiles.

For CPS, when this happens, it's a mistake. It's something they try to stop. For FLDS, this is what they exist to do. What they believe they must do. They don't see it as wrong, they don't try to stop it.

Details

04-28-2008, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by evalles
I don't care about statistics, there is no excuse for 13 foster kids under 3 to be raped in one state in the same year. No justification. [/*]Yeah, and the NICU should be abolished - no reason for so many infants to die. Who cares about statistics, who cares why - they've found a nice tear to jerk.

cloe23

04-28-2008, 06:21 PM

I consider this a State disaster and I am at times questioning why this was allowed to go on so long and get so big, but this is proof to me how the system must work, they can't take such majors without just cause, I am very grateful that the state got a break and were justified to intervene. It has to be so frustrating when people know or suspect something bad is going on and cant do a darn thing about it.
What a miracle this finally happened. Those children have such a promising future and will be with the mentoring they will receive have such promising futures. Keeping in mind that they will not be in the custody of the state until the age of 18yrs, only until each case is uniquely considered and placement made.
I would love to see one be a doctor
one be a teacher
one be a nurse
one be a bus driver
and last but not least one has to be a sexual assault counselor
I can envision it all evolving now. It is very expiring for me.

:rose: cloe

evalles

04-28-2008, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by cloe23

Excellent point! I bet that they are in addition to the cyanide plan they have plan to hide the children.
:chicken: But if I knew someone was coming after my children or maybe I would have a plan too. The plot just continues the thicken with this tragedy.

Edited for typing errors......... [/*]

This has no basis in fact. LE stated the so called cyanide doc was nothing more than a page out of a 1st aid book.

evalles

04-28-2008, 06:33 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Details
Yeah, and the NICU should be abolished - no reason for so many infants to die. Who cares about statistics, who cares why - they've found a nice tear to jerk. [/*][/QUOTE

Cold. If pregnant teenagers are all you need to condemn FLDS.
Raped babies are all I need to know that the child welfare system is in serious need of reform.

evalles

04-28-2008, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by Details
:lol:

You don't believe that any of the girls are pregnant? Because, guess what - to match the study you posted, if so much as one FLDS girl is or ever has been pregnant, their rate is still much higher than foster care. But the CPS info is stuff that is matched with court testimony of the girls who were pregnant at that time, and the records of the FLDS themselves. How many people can you think are lying before you consider maybe, just maybe, there's something here to open your eyes to.

Oh yeah, what FLDS does to babies under 3 is pretty horrendeous. I haven't seen your link to say what you claim there. If you're talking the graph - it says not a word about who raped the child. A sad truth of foster care that is difficult to manage is that when someone takes in numerous abused children, sometimes an older child will abuse the younger ones. Your links - none of them have talked of who did it - she likes to just say while under foster care - but not who and how. Could have been a visit from the parents who then abused the child, could have been another child, or could have been the foster parents. One thing though - notice that CPS keeps records to be able to find and stop these problems - as opposed to FLDS that endorses it's pedophiles.

For CPS, when this happens, it's a mistake. It's something they try to stop. For FLDS, this is what they exist to do. What they believe they must do. They don't see it as wrong, they don't try to stop it. [/*]

They didn't even want to provide the evidence. They refused to turn over the info for 2005.
These children were in the state's custody. The state is responsible for the children in their care.

not.another

04-28-2008, 06:50 PM

As far as I'm concerned, these women young and old were just baby making machines for the mens satisfaction only - made to beleive that this is there place in this world! How absurd. I truly feel sorry for these mothers as this is the only "world" they know and do not believe they have broken any laws because of all the brainwashing going on. The men however, know better and that is why they are halfway across the world. The women are completely blind to everything that is going on. I do feel sorry for the women. And this is imo only.

evalles

04-28-2008, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Details
None of this is anything dissimilar from the FLDS - have you read Warren Jeffs nephew's story? He was raped too. Guess what - even children in normal homes are raped - it happens.

A bunch of single cases (for her one 15 year old giving birth, we've got the 16 year old with 4 children and pregnant with another - not even close to comparable), taken out of context (what is the percent on rape for the general population, how common are these drugs for troubled children, was the foster caregiver responsible, or was this an internet pedophile, a random school pedophile going for the easiest victim, etc.) don't mean anything other than that there are sad cases. But there are sad cases everywhere.

Really - how is this report different from the exact same thing that could be written up for the NICU at any hospital?

"In 2005, 185 infants were confined to the NICU, and 20 died! The death rate for infants not confined to the NICU was more than 4 times lower!" Anyone with a bone to pick can manipulate statistics, make a scary sounding story. [/*]

Comparing a NICU w/ CPS or FLDS is ridiculous.
You're grasping.

walton

04-28-2008, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by evalles
Someone had previously asked me to post statistics on Texas CPS/Foster Care but the info I found was hard for me to understand.

This was much clearer and more disturbing.

She works for Texas.

Comptroller Strayhorn Statement
On Foster Care Abuse
Friday, June 23, 2006'

One of her findings
"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.
If you think this is scary, wait til you read the rest.
It gets worse. Much worse.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html [/*]

Who raped the children?
How did those children die?
How long were they in foster care before they were taken to the Doctor?
Why were they put in foster care?

Do you have a better link to back up what you are trying to say?

Thanks

Details

04-28-2008, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by evalles
Originally posted by Details
Yeah, and the NICU should be abolished - no reason for so many infants to die. Who cares about statistics, who cares why - they've found a nice tear to jerk. [/*]

Cold. If pregnant teenagers are all you need to condemn FLDS.
Raped babies are all I need to know that the child welfare system is in serious need of reform. [/*]The question isn't if they need reform - there is no agency in all the world so perfect that it doesn't need work, and CPS does have issues. The question is, are they mostly good? The answer (1% pregnant after 4 years) - yep, definitely mostly good. Are they better than FLDS - about 58 times better.

A few cases out of a very large group is not enough reason to condemn the whole group (and no, that statement does not apply to FLDS, where we have a large number of cases in a very small group). The number of problems are quite small to the number of children in foster care.

Raped babies are all you need, dead babies is all someone else needs - they have a problem, they see the type of biased statistics that that one person put out, and they think NICU is a horrible thing. If you don't look at the full statistic, relative to other similar situations, the percentage, etc. - you're missing the real picture. Those statistics are just a tear jerker. You could conclude any organization in the world is evil looking just at it's failings without considering the statistics.

But - sorry - zero failures is impossible. Pedophiles in particular are hard to detect - they lie! They spend quite a few years becoming a priest or preacher, under harsh circumstances to get access to children, they become scoutmasters, they get teaching degrees, they become parents. No organization of any reasonable size will be completely free of them. The question to ask is if they have a higher percentage than average, and what they do once the pedophile is found out.

walton

04-28-2008, 08:02 PM

evalles,

are you talking about the one on one Foster Care Programs or are you talking about a business that subcontracts people for Foster Care?

The only ones I know about are the ones where they do an investigation. Heck they check out so much they know if you buy Puffs with or without lotion.

Details

04-28-2008, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by evalles
Comparing a NICU w/ CPS or FLDS is ridiculous.
You're grasping. [/*]Nope. That's about precisely the same. NICU is where infants are taken away from their mothers because they are in danger, at risk. And NICU does have a higher rate of infant mortality than the rest of the hospital. Heck, if you want to have some fun, really scare people into trying to destroy NICU, you could put up some good links about how NICU babies continue to have health and education issues throughout their entire lives.

Exactly the same as the partial biased picture painted by the statistics given out by your link.

But - the part missing is that an infant goes to NICU because there are problems. Losing 20 infants is a victory because if they were not in NICU far more would have died. Comparing NICU babies to all babies is a complete irrelevancy.

Just like comparing abused and neglected kics to all kids, referring to pregnancy and rape without knowing who did it. Or worse still, giving numbers without percentages and without percentages to compare to.

LLaFren

04-28-2008, 08:27 PM

NICU = Neo-Natel Intensive Care Unit
ICU-Intensive Care Unit

Um, what did I miss? These units are for people (kids) who are in life dangering situations.

Don't they typically have higher mortality rates?

Charity

04-28-2008, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by evalles

Comparing a NICU w/ CPS or FLDS is ridiculous.
You're grasping. [/*]

I've kept my piece about this, mostly just reading, but I'd like to respond to you. Respectfully, YOU have made comparisons between apples and oranges yourself. This is an extraordinary circumstance and the measures taken, while you may think them unfair in some respects, are necessary to ensure the safety of the children. That has to come first. HAS to.

This case can't be compared to what we would think of as the "normal", single-family situation. It's just not possible to accomplish securing the safety of the children if they are left with members of a cult who abuse or allow abuse of them. Unfortunately, things just can't be done exactly as we would like to see it done in single-family cases.

Frankly, I'm rather tired of your constant whining about -- and defense of -- leaving children in an obviously abusive environment. After learning that nearly 60% of the girls 14-17 are or have been pregnant, I don't see how anyone could still advocate for a single one of those kids to be returned to their FLDS handlers.

I am beginning to think that your experience with CPS has resulted in such a vengeance toward them that you can't see the forest (the kids' safety) for the trees (hatred of CPS). I'm so sorry for what happened to you -- it was unjust and unfair, and I don't blame you a bit for being bitter toward them; but this is an entirely different matter, and you just can't draw the comparisons you've tried to make to your and other cases.

This case is unique and everyone in every division of the system is trying hard to do right by the children. I'd far rather err on the side of safety for ALL the kids than in making certain not a single right of any adult is compromised. They should all have their day before the court and their rights should be upheld -- but that can all be sorted out later.

First and foremost is making certain those kids are SAFE and removed from abuse; that they aren't left for even ONE DAY in the care of those who would abuse or allow abuse of them. We KNOW abuse is happening at YFZ -- there's no question about that, IMO. The children are where they need to be right now.

YOU have been grasping mightily since day one to make this all about how awful CPS is, rather than the plight of the children themselves. But you've falling short, IMO. They are obviously safer where they are. There are no numbers you could ever dig up to prove that the probability for POTENTIAL foster care abuse is greater than the probability of FUTURE abuse with FLDS members, given the certain ACTUAL abuse these kids have already endured while in FLDS custody. It's an exercise in futility!

I hope and pray that none of them are returned to any member of FLDS. It would be great if the moms would find the strength to break free and make a life for themselves and their kids outside of the abusive cult, but so long as they remain under the thumb of FLDS leadership, they have NO business being entrusted with the care of innocent, precious little lives.

Details

04-28-2008, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by LLaFren
NICU = Neo-Natel Intensive Care Unit
ICU-Intensive Care Unit

Um, what did I miss? These units are for people (kids) who are in life dangering situations.

Don't they typically have higher mortality rates? [/*]Yep. That's my point. If you use the same type of biased and incomplete statistics as the link from the Texas woman, you can make it seem a NICU is a deathtrap because so many kids die there.

Abused and neglected kids are also in life endangering situations, and like an infant who needs NICU, they also have likely taken some damage already that will leave them more likely to have troubles throughout their life - as a group, they will be more vulnerable to sexual predators, they will have more health, mental, and emotional issues, they will have more educational problems.

To say CPS fails because abused and neglected children brought out to the foster care system don't magically become perfect and graduate high school at the same rate as their non-abused, non-neglected peers is the same as saying the NICU fails because they don't manage to take a 6 week premature baby and make it identical to it's full term peer. Comparing those in NICU, or those in foster care to everyone else and expecting them to be identical is simply not correct.

LLaFren

04-28-2008, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Details
Yep. That's my point. If you use the same type of biased and incomplete statistics as the link from the Texas woman, you can make it seem a NICU is a deathtrap because so many kids die there.

Abused and neglected kids are also in life endangering situations, and like an infant who needs NICU, they also have likely taken some damage already that will leave them more likely to have troubles throughout their life - as a group, they will be more vulnerable to sexual predators, they will have more health, mental, and emotional issues, they will have more educational problems.

To say CPS fails because abused and neglected children brought out to the foster care system don't magically become perfect and graduate high school at the same rate as their non-abused, non-neglected peers is the same as saying the NICU fails because they don't manage to take a 6 week premature baby and make it identical to it's full term peer. Comparing those in NICU, or those in foster care to everyone else and expecting them to be identical is simply not correct. [/*]

Thanks, I knew what I was trying to say and you did it for me.

evalles

04-28-2008, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by Charity

I've kept my piece about this, mostly just reading, but I'd like to respond to you. Respectfully, YOU have made comparisons between apples and oranges yourself. This is an extraordinary circumstance and the measures taken, while you may think them unfair in some respects, are necessary to ensure the safety of the children. That has to come first. HAS to.

This case can't be compared to what we would think of as the "normal", single-family situation. It's just not possible to accomplish securing the safety of the children if they are left with members of a cult who abuse or allow abuse of them. Unfortunately, things just can't be done exactly as we would like to see it done in single-family cases.

Frankly, I'm rather tired of your constant whining about -- and defense of -- leaving children in an obviously abusive environment. After learning that nearly 60% of the girls 14-17 are or have been pregnant, I don't see how anyone could still advocate for a single one of those kids to be returned to their FLDS handlers.

I am beginning to think that your experience with CPS has resulted in such a vengeance toward them that you can't see the forest (the kids' safety) for the trees (hatred of CPS). I'm so sorry for what happened to you -- it was unjust and unfair, and I don't blame you a bit for being bitter toward them; but this is an entirely different matter, and you just can't draw the comparisons you've tried to make to your and other cases.

This case is unique and everyone in every division of the system is trying hard to do right by the children. I'd far rather err on the side of safety for ALL the kids than in making certain not a single right of any adult is compromised. They should all have their day before the court and their rights should be upheld -- but that can all be sorted out later.

First and foremost is making certain those kids are SAFE and removed from abuse; that they aren't left for even ONE DAY in the care of those who would abuse or allow abuse of them. We KNOW abuse is happening at YFZ -- there's no question about that, IMO. The children are where they need to be right now.

YOU have been grasping mightily since day one to make this all about how awful CPS is, rather than the plight of the children themselves. But you've falling short, IMO. They are obviously safer where they are. There are no numbers you could ever dig up to prove that the probability for POTENTIAL foster care abuse is greater than the probability of FUTURE abuse with FLDS members, given the certain ACTUAL abuse these kids have already endured while in FLDS custody. It's an exercise in futility!

I hope and pray that none of them are returned to any member of FLDS. It would be great if the moms would find the strength to break free and make a life for themselves and their kids outside of the abusive cult, but so long as they remain under the thumb of FLDS leadership, they have NO business being entrusted with the care of innocent, precious little lives. [/*]

This isn't all about how awful CPS is. It amazes me that no one seems upset about the 13 TX babies(under 3) raped while in foster care in 2004.
According to CPS policies, children aren't supposed to be removed due to the potential of future abuse. There's supposed to be an imminent risk of serious physical harm or death to actually remove a child. IMO, they might have been right in the case of the pregnant teens, but not all the children. I'm not defending FLDS because I don't have all the facts, but I don't see any evidence of imminent risk to all these children. 5 years down the road is not imminent.
I don't believe there are excuses for violating citizen's rights.
You know there are tons of blogs/groups that support my opinions, but after a couple of posts with everyone in agreement, I get awfully bored.

evalles

04-28-2008, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Details
Yep. That's my point. If you use the same type of biased and incomplete statistics as the link from the Texas woman, you can make it seem a NICU is a deathtrap because so many kids die there.

Abused and neglected kids are also in life endangering situations, and like an infant who needs NICU, they also have likely taken some damage already that will leave them more likely to have troubles throughout their life - as a group, they will be more vulnerable to sexual predators, they will have more health, mental, and emotional issues, they will have more educational problems.

To say CPS fails because abused and neglected children brought out to the foster care system don't magically become perfect and graduate high school at the same rate as their non-abused, non-neglected peers is the same as saying the NICU fails because they don't manage to take a 6 week premature baby and make it identical to it's full term peer. Comparing those in NICU, or those in foster care to everyone else and expecting them to be identical is simply not correct. [/*]

I wasn't comparing statistics, I was referring to a link specific to foster care. I wasn't even comparing CPS to FLDS, I was commenting on the report on foster care.
You obviously don't find the facts in the report shocking.

evalles

04-28-2008, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by Details

Cold. If pregnant teenagers are all you need to condemn FLDS.
Raped babies are all I need to know that the child welfare system is in serious need of reform. [/*]The question isn't if they need reform - there is no agency in all the world so perfect that it doesn't need work, and CPS does have issues. The question is, are they mostly good? The answer (1% pregnant after 4 years) - yep, definitely mostly good. Are they better than FLDS - about 58 times better.

A few cases out of a very large group is not enough reason to condemn the whole group (and no, that statement does not apply to FLDS, where we have a large number of cases in a very small group). The number of problems are quite small to the number of children in foster care.

Raped babies are all you need, dead babies is all someone else needs - they have a problem, they see the type of biased statistics that that one person put out, and they think NICU is a horrible thing. If you don't look at the full statistic, relative to other similar situations, the percentage, etc. - you're missing the real picture. Those statistics are just a tear jerker. You could conclude any organization in the world is evil looking just at it's failings without considering the statistics.

But - sorry - zero failures is impossible. Pedophiles in particular are hard to detect - they lie! They spend quite a few years becoming a priest or preacher, under harsh circumstances to get access to children, they become scoutmasters, they get teaching degrees, they become parents. No organization of any reasonable size will be completely free of them. The question to ask is if they have a higher percentage than average, and what they do once the pedophile is found out. [/*][/QUOTE]

So 29 kids being raped in state care - same state/same year doesn't bother you ? I think it's sick. IMO, it was about 29 too many. There are names and faces behind the statistics.

Details

04-28-2008, 09:13 PM

You should compare FLDS to CPS - for two reasons - first, because that is the choice open to these children. There is no third option. Second, because that is the type of situation abused children are always in - stay in the probably abusive household, or go to the probably not abusive household. Pick one.

I don't find facts in the report. I find some hyperbole, innuendo, and anecdotal stories that lack the information needed to find it shocking or not. That report doesn't even say who raped those little babies - for all the information provided, it could have been their own parents during an insufficiently supervised visitation. Or another troubled foster child. Or a teacher. Or a priest. Or a complete stranger (oh, and before you say it - for the FLDS pregnant mothers, we have the FLDS's own records to say who the father was - there we do have the facts, the information provided).

Facts can shock and concern me. I don't see any such facts.

xray ra

04-28-2008, 09:24 PM

Some posters, unfortunately will never be able to see that this case is unique. Not to be compared with their own experiences. Some people will always try to blame others rather than try to accept responsibility for their own actions or inactions.

Thankfully, there is an abundance of evidence of the misdeeds of this unlawful sect. I am glad that not all of it has been released to the media. LE will need all the support they can get to properly convict the criminals in this case.
The FDLS will certainly have their "A" game and I hope the State of Texas has the support of their citizens.

Another thing, I wonder why the United States Att Gen. has not requested a Special Prosecutor to investigate allegations of interstate kidnapping and welfare fraud , ect./
The Warren Jeffs trial surely opened some doors to this possiblity.
DFTT

Details

04-28-2008, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by evalles
So 29 kids being raped in state care - same state/same year doesn't bother you ? I think it's sick. IMO, it was about 29 too many. There are names and faces behind the statistics. [/*]By itself - no, it does not. Tell me that they were raped by the foster care parents - not by their teachers, some stranger, something that was not equally likely to happen with their own parents. Tell me that that 29 is a higher percentage than would have been raped otherwise, that if you look at a group of other abused kids, the percentage raped is any lower.

The world is not perfect, and the number of raped children will never be zero. It's a sad truth. If you expect perfection - no mother or father should have a child either. Because far more than 29 children living at home with their parents are raped.

29,433 people were raped in 2002 - does that not disturb you? Maybe we should reevaluate if we allow any men to exist out of jail. After all, all of those 29,433 people have names and faces too! Compared to them, the 29 children you talk about is a small number - obviously we should worry about the larger number - right?

Or do you now care about the statistics, the population, the relative odds?

evalles

04-28-2008, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Details
By itself - no, it does not. Tell me that they were raped by the foster care parents - not by their teachers, some stranger, something that was not equally likely to happen with their own parents. Tell me that that 29 is a higher percentage than would have been raped otherwise, that if you look at a group of other abused kids, the percentage raped is any lower.

The world is not perfect, and the number of raped children will never be zero. It's a sad truth. If you expect perfection - no mother or father should have a child either. Because far more than 29 children living at home with their parents are raped.

29,433 people were raped in 2002 - does that not disturb you? Maybe we should reevaluate if we allow any men to exist out of jail. After all, all of those 29,433 people have names and faces too! Compared to them, the 29 children you talk about is a small number - obviously we should worry about the larger number - right?

Or do you now care about the statistics, the population, the relative odds? [/*]

No, I don't care about statistics. I care about people.
You can care more about numbers if you want.
IMO, this shouldn't be happening to children being protected by the state. Any children, let alone babies that are being RAPED while in the care of the child savers.
You can't convince me that this is ok.

Charity

04-28-2008, 09:53 PM

evalles, of course people are concerned ANYtime a child is harmed! I suppose there's no way to totally rule out that a potential foster parent could be abusive to a child. It's awful and tragic that such things happen. I can't agree with you enough about that. But I'm not sure what we should do instead.

Child abusers aren't going to offer up during the interview process that they are pedophiles or the like. They do slip through. What is your solution for those situations? To whom should the children's care be entrusted when it can't be (temporarily, in some cases) entrusted to the legal parents or extended family? What do we do?

I think one of the things in this case that really muddies the waters is that it's a really bizarre, not-very-forked-family-tree group. Kids aren't even sure who their parents are in some instances (or they've been told to say they don't). Parents won't offer up information to help.

It's just about impossible to deal with it on a child-to-child basis when we can't even ascertain with surety which children belong to which parents. So, to whom are the children entrusted while CPS investigates, especially after they've seen signs of abuse within that big "family" with their own eyes?

If a toddler's 14 yr old sister/half-sister is pregnant, should that toddler be left in the care of the parents who caused/allowed such a thing to happen? It's not JUST the child who may show obvious signs of having been abused who is at risk.

EVERY child within the environment of the abuser is AT RISK of imminent harm, whether physical OR emotional. Could you imagine if the 14 yr old girl living next door to you was found to be pregnant by her stepdad -- with the blessing of her mom -- that those two adults should be entrusted with the care of the girl's younger siblings or of an older sister who wasn't pregnant (yet!)?

Think about that. Don't you think that would be a harmful environment for ALL the children in the household? Must we wait til the next one becomes pregnant or one of them dies before we remove them to investigate the totality of the abuse picture? You can't just assume that abusers will abuse only one child and leave the rest alone, for heaven's sake!

Because there is such subterfuge among the FLDS cult, because of the difficulty THEY cause in allowing the investigation to move more quickly, THEY themselves are responsible for a lot of the problems here in processing the children. There are so many angles here to consider that it's mind-boggling. But one thing has to be clear -- the safety of ALL kids comes first. Not just the ones who've obviously been violated or have admitted abuse, but all the others who are WITHIN THE SAME enivornment. NO CHILD in an environment of abuse towards ANY other child is SAFE...we can't assume that!

It's the unique nature of this case that warrants a unique and very difficult (for all involved) approach. It's just going to take what it takes to sort it out -- and, yes, it'll have to happen within the limitations of the system and human frailties of everyone involved. It won't be perfect, but it will be the best everyone can do for the children. Now, evalles, if you know the perfect way to do this, by all means, hop on down there to Texas and fill them in.

One more thing to consider since you're so concerned these kids will be harmed in foster care. My understanding is that they are in group facilities, and I can guarantee you that there is going to be all kinds of scrutiny of each of those settings because of the huge publicity attached to this case.

Texas knows the eyes of the US are upon her as she endeavors to help these kids, and they are going to do all they possibly can to make SURE the people involved are being good to those children. I think these kids are going to receive way above-average care. I hope it might ease your mind just a little to realize that they know people are looking for missteps and that they are really going to be on their toes with the care of the children.

This is why I haven't posted much on this matter...I'm afraid I won't be able to shut up, as evidenced here tonight! Sorry.

For the children, and for you, evalles :rose:

evalles

04-28-2008, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Details
You should compare FLDS to CPS - for two reasons - first, because that is the choice open to these children. There is no third option. Second, because that is the type of situation abused children are always in - stay in the probably abusive household, or go to the probably not abusive household. Pick one.

I don't find facts in the report. I find some hyperbole, innuendo, and anecdotal stories that lack the information needed to find it shocking or not. That report doesn't even say who raped those little babies - for all the information provided, it could have been their own parents during an insufficiently supervised visitation. Or another troubled foster child. Or a teacher. Or a priest. Or a complete stranger (oh, and before you say it - for the FLDS pregnant mothers, we have the FLDS's own records to say who the father was - there we do have the facts, the information provided).

Facts can shock and concern me. I don't see any such facts. [/*]

The report was based on information provided by Texas CPS. If you think they provided false information, that would be understandable.

Details

04-28-2008, 10:08 PM

If you care about people - you care about statistics.

Because it's not about 29 children. It's about several thousand children. And to leave several thousand children with abusive parents, to have far more than merely 29 raped children, is the alternative to CPS. And because it does matter if CPS could have saved those 29 children. If they were raped by schoolteachers - CPS has no way to prevent that. Statistics tell the tale, if it was something unique to CPS, or if it is something that applies equally to all children.

Statistics are how you figure out which choice harms the fewest people. If you care about people - you look at the statistics. Not the stories - children raised by their parents and children in foster homes both have horrible stories. But the goal is to help the most possible, then keep improving from there.

Of course we should demand that we (since you always ask - society represented by CPS, LE, media, whichever) look into it, we find out who the rapist is, we prosecute them, if it's a foster parent (and your link does not say that it is the foster parent - for a link trying to discredit CPS, that omission screams out), find out if we could have known, and if so, set systems in place to find out (even the best background check in the world can't detect a pedophile who has not yet been arrested), look at how we can check more often, etc. Laws, initiatives, public outrage when it's a sufficiently photogenic victim (sad but true) - all these have changed the system from the bad old days, and things continue to change.

Numbers matter. I take 29 raped children over 400 raped children any day of the week. That's why statistics matter. Because zero is quite simply not a choice.

evalles

04-28-2008, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Details
Yeah, and the NICU should be abolished - no reason for so many infants to die. Who cares about statistics, who cares why - they've found a nice tear to jerk. [/*]

What's with you and the NICU ?
Where does the NICU come into play w/ CPS and the FLDS ?
I'm sorry it bothers you that I happen to care about individual cases of abuse not numbers.

Statistics can be flawed.
A nice tear to jerk sounds heartless.

evalles

04-28-2008, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Details
If you care about people - you care about statistics.

Because it's not about 29 children. It's about several thousand children. And to leave several thousand children with abusive parents, to have far more than merely 29 raped children, is the alternative to CPS. And because it does matter if CPS could have saved those 29 children. If they were raped by schoolteachers - CPS has no way to prevent that. Statistics tell the tale, if it was something unique to CPS, or if it is something that applies equally to all children.

Statistics are how you figure out which choice harms the fewest people. If you care about people - you look at the statistics. Not the stories - children raised by their parents and children in foster homes both have horrible stories. But the goal is to help the most possible, then keep improving from there.

Of course we should demand that we (since you always ask - society represented by CPS, LE, media, whichever) look into it, we find out who the rapist is, we prosecute them, if it's a foster parent (and your link does not say that it is the foster parent - for a link trying to discredit CPS, that omission screams out), find out if we could have known, and if so, set systems in place to find out (even the best background check in the world can't detect a pedophile who has not yet been arrested), look at how we can check more often, etc. Laws, initiatives, public outrage when it's a sufficiently photogenic victim (sad but true) - all these have changed the system from the bad old days, and things continue to change.

Numbers matter. I take 29 raped children over 400 raped children any day of the week. That's why statistics matter. Because zero is quite simply not a choice. [/*]

That 29 was in one state out of 50. Those were only the reported cases, and as the number of children in foster care has grown, the numbers likely have also.

Details

04-29-2008, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by evalles
What's with you and the NICU ?
Where does the NICU come into play w/ CPS and the FLDS ?
I'm sorry it bothers you that I happen to care about individual cases of abuse not numbers.

Statistics can be flawed.
A nice tear to jerk sounds heartless. [/*]Heartless is not caring about how many children are raped.

NICU is a nice similar situation - that's all it is. The same tactics your link uses on CPS could be used on it, and would yeild the same exact type of horrible sounding situation.

evalles

04-29-2008, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by jenny_92808

I am curious. I have noticed that you use Canadian punctuation in your previous posts. Are you part of that sect? I suspected you guys were coming. Are you from the Canadian sect who chooses to rape children and call it God ordained polygamy? [/*]
:lol:
You're hilarious. Exactly why I love these boards. You accuse anybody that doesn't think like you of being a child abuser or a rapist. My guess is that the heartless and mean posters work for CPS

Details

04-29-2008, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by evalles
That 29 was in one state out of 50. Those were only the reported cases, and as the number of children in foster care has grown, the numbers likely have also. [/*]Ah - now you care about numbers... That 29 was out of 24,000 to 30,000 children. That's an incredibly low percentage. How many of those 30 thousand children would have been dead, from neglect or abuse? How many would have been raped (again) by their parents? How many would have been molested by their teachers, aquaintances, strangers?

29 out of 26 thousand - a very small number.

evalles

04-29-2008, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by Details
Heartless is not caring about how many children are raped.

NICU is a nice similar situation - that's all it is. The same tactics your link uses on CPS could be used on it, and would yeild the same exact type of horrible sounding situation. [/*]

Heartless is not caring about each and every last one.
How does the NICU compare to CPS or FLDS ?

I'm going to bed now, so I'll read your response tomorrow.

evalles

04-29-2008, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by jenny_92808

<click> ignore

I pray for the children! [/*]

Me too.

Details

04-29-2008, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by evalles
Heartless is not caring about each and every last one.
How does the NICU compare to CPS or FLDS ?

I'm going to bed now, so I'll read your response tomorrow. [/*]Not caring if there are 400 or 29, is not caring about each and every last one. If you don't care about how many, then you are not caring about 371 of the children.

Tear-jerking misleading information, if you don't pay attention to the alternatives, leads you to endorse a path that will lead to more children, not fewer, abused, molested, raped. To care about each and every one means caring about ALL of the details - the alternatives, how to find a solution that results in the fewest possible children hurt, that prosecutes the criminals as effectively as possible. Not to make an impossible goal, then destroy the entire system if it is not met.

As to NICU - answering the same question 5 times is my limit. Go read one of my previous answers.

Details

04-29-2008, 02:53 AM

And let's never forget they boys. What happens when they turn 14?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/28/national/main4053111.shtml
Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split - 197 girls and 196 boys - but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.Where did 36 boys go?

Freebird

04-29-2008, 03:01 AM

Details

04-29-2008, 03:08 AM

Too bad we weren't watching when those 36 boys vanished. Wonder where they are.

Rainkiss

04-29-2008, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by evalles

The report was based on information provided by Texas CPS. If you think they provided false information, that would be understandable. [/*]

As an old English professor of mine once quoted, "Consider the source."

What you've got here is a report written by a woman running for governor. She'd announced her run less than a month before this was released.

She was asking for MEDICAL RECORDS of CHILDREN. I don't care WHAT she signed promising to keep those records confidential, CPS can NOT release that information, no more than your doctor can hand your records over to CNN if they come asking. And an, "Oh, we promise we won't tell" won't get them your records. There are federal laws which prevent the release of that information without a very specific court order, which your report writer obviously didn't get.

I also notice that your report writer is VERY careful to use the word "rape," which is an emotional hot button. However, she never defines exactly what she's talking about. Any significant report of this type would have to include the defination. Are we discussing only children which have been actually (sorry, can't be very delicate on this one) penetrated, or are we just discussing children who have been fondled? The word "rape" covers a LOT of ground. Are we discussing investigated cases? Cases where it was suspected? Accusations?

Sorry, but your link isn't to a study, or to a report. It's to a campaign plank, one designed to create outrage and to oust the former governor. And, I note, an unsuccessful one.

Rainkiss

04-29-2008, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Details
Too bad we weren't watching when those 36 boys vanished. Wonder where they are. [/*]

I'm hoping that, given that the YFZ ranch is a fairly new compound, it just means that they imported more girls than boys, and not that 36 young men were expelled to the desert in Texas.

evalles

04-29-2008, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

As an old English professor of mine once quoted, "Consider the source."

What you've got here is a report written by a woman running for governor. She'd announced her run less than a month before this was released.

She was asking for MEDICAL RECORDS of CHILDREN. I don't care WHAT she signed promising to keep those records confidential, CPS can NOT release that information, no more than your doctor can hand your records over to CNN if they come asking. And an, "Oh, we promise we won't tell" won't get them your records. There are federal laws which prevent the release of that information without a very specific court order, which your report writer obviously didn't get.

I also notice that your report writer is VERY careful to use the word "rape," which is an emotional hot button. However, she never defines exactly what she's talking about. Any significant report of this type would have to include the defination. Are we discussing only children which have been actually (sorry, can't be very delicate on this one) penetrated, or are we just discussing children who have been fondled? The word "rape" covers a LOT of ground. Are we discussing investigated cases? Cases where it was suspected? Accusations?

Sorry, but your link isn't to a study, or to a report. It's to a campaign plank, one designed to create outrage and to oust the former governor. And, I note, an unsuccessful one. [/*]

Based on information provided by CPS. In 2005 she was refused the same info she was given in 2004. I believe 48 children were killed.

evalles

04-29-2008, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by essiemadge
the only way to deal with poster evalles is to ignore her. answering her only feeds her obsession. none of her posts have any relevance to the polygamist sect kids. [/*]

Yep, that's it, best to ignore people that don't agree with you.
No on should have to acknowlege that there's more than one side to every story.

KatyDid

04-29-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

As an old English professor of mine once quoted, "Consider the source."

What you've got here is a report written by a woman running for governor. She'd announced her run less than a month before this was released.

She was asking for MEDICAL RECORDS of CHILDREN. I don't care WHAT she signed promising to keep those records confidential, CPS can NOT release that information, no more than your doctor can hand your records over to CNN if they come asking. And an, "Oh, we promise we won't tell" won't get them your records. There are federal laws which prevent the release of that information without a very specific court order, which your report writer obviously didn't get.

I also notice that your report writer is VERY careful to use the word "rape," which is an emotional hot button. However, she never defines exactly what she's talking about. Any significant report of this type would have to include the defination. Are we discussing only children which have been actually (sorry, can't be very delicate on this one) penetrated, or are we just discussing children who have been fondled? The word "rape" covers a LOT of ground. Are we discussing investigated cases? Cases where it was suspected? Accusations?

Sorry, but your link isn't to a study, or to a report. It's to a campaign plank, one designed to create outrage and to oust the former governor. And, I note, an unsuccessful one. [/*]

Did Strayhorn ever publish a follow up report based on more recent data?

Or was this report just the soap box she chose to run on for her bid for governor.

Charity

04-29-2008, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Tennessean

IMHO, no one has addressed just how the young children are in imminent danger of serious physical harm or death, so I can see no reason that they should be involved in the raid that was conducted to locate a 16 yr old girl and a 50 something yr old man.

Are you saying that you believe it's okay to leave siblings in a home where their sister is being raped, so long as they haven't been also raped?

I can't imagine anyone supporting a position that a child should be left in such an environment. It's not necessary to physically touch a child to abuse them -- exposing them to abuse by abusing other children in the home is itself a form of abuse.

If someone is sexually abusing one of the children -- or allowing it to occur with their consent -- they are NOT fit parents to care for ANY child!

evalles

04-29-2008, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

So are you advocating that the younger children remain until they ARE in imminent danger? How frequently would you suggest that the compound be visited to save the latest group of Children in Imminent Danger?

Perhaps if the FLDS parents would give accurate ages, birthdates and names of the children, authorities could create a Save the Imminently in Danger calendar to assist them in determining exactly when to execute future raids on the compound.

Maybe the FLDS could post a copy of the same calendar in their temple so that everyone would be on the same page. That way each child could be removed from the compound on the day before he or she entered the Imminent Danger Zone according to age.

I'm sure that would work out better for everyone. I'm sure Jeffs wouldn't have yet another 'revelation' that the age of 'marriage' for young girls should be dropped to 9 or 10. Or that the age of becoming 'lost' for boys wouldn't also be adjusted downward.

:rolleyes: [/*]

Are you advocating that the government should be able to take any child they feel might be at risk at some unknown point in the future ?
It gives them too much power . There are guidelines for removal to protect against abuses and overzealeous officials.
I haven't heard anybody say that polygamy or sex with minors is ok. To the contrary, most think the perps should be castrated or even executed.
However, there's nothing wrong with expecting officials to act according to the laws and to protect the rights of all citizens.

evalles

04-29-2008, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by KatyDid

Did Strayhorn ever publish a follow up report based on more recent data?

Or was this report just the soap box she chose to run on for her bid for governor. [/*]

No, she asked for 2005 records but CPS refused.
She was governor of Austin at one time.
Maybe she wanted to stop the corruption.

evalles

04-29-2008, 04:31 PM

It is possible since Strayhorn obtained this information from CPS, that the information could be false or misleading.

That wouldn't surprise me a bit.

Rainkiss

04-29-2008, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Tennessean

IMHO, no one has addressed just how the young children are in imminent danger of serious physical harm or death, so I can see no reason that they should be involved in the raid that was conducted to locate a 16 yr old girl and a 50 something yr old man. [/*]

There were two raids, one searching for "Sarah." A second warrant was issued, based on evidence discovered during the search for "Sarah" and executed immediately, while the search for "Sarah" was ongoing.

Apparently, it was judged that the children were in danger of abuse and/or neglect in the foreseeable future, which is the guideline they are required to follow.

There's a lot of information on the website about CPS:
Texas DFPS Website (http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/)

Rainkiss

04-29-2008, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by evalles

No, she asked for 2005 records but CPS refused.
She was governor of Austin at one time.
Maybe she wanted to stop the corruption. [/*]

She was mayor of Austin, correct.

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carole_Keeton_Strayhorn)

Incidentally... That report that you're quoting got her sued.

News on lawsuit (http://www.news8austin.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=169531)

Still searching to see how the civil suit turned out, but it was found that there was no evidence to shut down one of the foster care camps that the targeted in her report:

http://www.news8austin.com/content/your_news/?SecID=278&ArID=175921

Charity

04-29-2008, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Tennessean

Where is the evidence that those people that only had young children had raped anyone, or were endangering their young children in any way?

The couple that I saw on TV only had young children and there was no evidence, or even a claim that these young children were at risk, or that their parents had commited any crime, so why were they taken from their parents, other than the fact that they belonged to the same church?

For some reason, there are people that just want to take away children from their parents, who have shown no abuse toward their children just because sometime in the future they just might marry them off at a too young age.

Our laws are fasioned so that if a person commits a crime they are punished, but people are not punished because they just might commit a crime in the future.

We do not have the gift of being omnipotent, so we can not prosecute people for a crime we believe they might just commit in the future [/*]

You bring up a good point, Tenn. I am not sure how that situation should be handled.

One of the problems is the cult-like environment. That is not at ALL due to their religion. These people could worship anybody/anything -- or nothing at all -- and I'd still feel the practices they employ are cult-like. Let me be clear as I can be: I don't care about their religion whatsoever. I don't care about the adults doing absolutely anything they want to do with/for/to each other, so long as it's an adult choice made with informed consent.

The secretive, cult-like setting is what worries me where the kids are concerned. They don't have a say and are at the mercy of their parents to make good choices for them. With 60% of the teens having been pregnant, there can't be an adult there who doesn't know what goes on in the way of abuse of those girls.

So to my way of thinking, being part of that big "family" means that they condone the abuse practices of the sect, even if they're not actively (for now, anyway) personally participating in it. Their child is at risk of either being violated like the teen girls or growing into a young man who will be taught that it's his right to do such a thing.

Another problem is the difficulty in ascertaining accurate parentage for the children. These folks have purposely engaged in subterfuge to try to thwart the authorities, at the expense of their children. That in itself kinda worries me -- almost seems they are more loyal to the cult than to their own kids. IMO, anyone who raises a child in that environment will follow along with all the practices; therefore, every child is at risk.

I personally think no children should be allowed to remain in that compound. I know realistically that's not gonna happen, but one can wish! Ideally, I would hope for the moms to break free of the oppression, leave that sect and make a life for themselves and their children.

My wishes aside, though, you DO have a point about the families with only very young kids. If it is found that the abuse of the teen girls is the ONLY form of abuse going on at that compound, then I suppose the parents who do not have a daughter that's been violated will and (it pains me to say this) legally should get their kids back.

My fear is that those kids are gonna be put right back in the cycle of brainwashing, oppression and eventual abuse. I don't think it's only the girls who are abused. I believe those poor boys are raised to do the things they do, and that's abuse towards them as well.

I sure wish I had an answer that would be fair to everyone and that would fall 100% within the criteria and guidelines for child welfare investigations, but it's such a weird situation that I don't think there ARE any perfect solutions.

Like I've said before, I think everyone is doing the best they can. Because of the evident abuse and the outright lying of the parents, I think CPS had no choice but to remove the kids while the investigation proceeds. It's a legal mess, for sure, but I think we always have to be willing to err on the side of a child's wellbeing.

Thanks for the response. I know where you're coming from...hope you can see my point as well.

cloe23

04-29-2008, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by Freebird

The foster parents of the FLDS kids need to be aware that we will be watching. [/*]

And each child has an attorney as well.

cloe23

04-29-2008, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Charity

You bring up a good point, Tenn. I am not sure how that situation should be handled.

One of the problems is the cult-like environment. That is not at ALL due to their religion. These people could worship anybody/anything -- or nothing at all -- and I'd still feel the practices they employ are cult-like. Let me be clear as I can be: I don't care about their religion whatsoever. I don't care about the adults doing absolutely anything they want to do with/for/to each other, so long as it's an adult choice made with informed consent.

The secretive, cult-like setting is what worries me where the kids are concerned. They don't have a say and are at the mercy of their parents to make good choices for them. With 60% of the teens having been pregnant, there can't be an adult there who doesn't know what goes on in the way of abuse of those girls.

So to my way of thinking, being part of that big "family" means that they condone the abuse practices of the sect, even if they're not actively (for now, anyway) personally participating in it. Their child is at risk of either being violated like the teen girls or growing into a young man who will be taught that it's his right to do such a thing.

Another problem is the difficulty in ascertaining accurate parentage for the children. These folks have purposely engaged in subterfuge to try to thwart the authorities, at the expense of their children. That in itself kinda worries me -- almost seems they are more loyal to the cult than to their own kids. IMO, anyone who raises a child in that environment will follow along with all the practices; therefore, every child is at risk.

I personally think no children should be allowed to remain in that compound. I know realistically that's not gonna happen, but one can wish! Ideally, I would hope for the moms to break free of the oppression, leave that sect and make a life for themselves and their children.

My wishes aside, though, you DO have a point about the families with only very young kids. If it is found that the abuse of the teen girls is the ONLY form of abuse going on at that compound, then I suppose the parents who do not have a daughter that's been violated will and (it pains me to say this) legally should get their kids back.

My fear is that those kids are gonna be put right back in the cycle of brainwashing, oppression and eventual abuse. I don't think it's only the girls who are abused. I believe those poor boys are raised to do the things they do, and that's abuse towards them as well.

I sure wish I had an answer that would be fair to everyone and that would fall 100% within the criteria and guidelines for child welfare investigations, but it's such a weird situation that I don't think there ARE any perfect solutions.

Like I've said before, I think everyone is doing the best they can. Because of the evident abuse and the outright lying of the parents, I think CPS had no choice but to remove the kids while the investigation proceeds. It's a legal mess, for sure, but I think we always have to be willing to err on the side of a child's wellbeing.

Thanks for the response. I know where you're coming from...hope you can see my point as well. [/*]

Great post! I want to add that IMO even though the parents believe their child is not being abused, it still can happen. Kids don't usually talk after being assaulted, it is part of the shame, guilt and fear that goes with sexual assault. IMO

cloe23

04-29-2008, 07:55 PM

I know this is off topic, but is there a way someone can select an ignore option of another poster in attempt to keep their membership on this sight? I'm going nuts here, trying to figure out how?
Cloe

evalles

04-29-2008, 08:32 PM

evalles

04-29-2008, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

She was mayor of Austin, correct.

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carole_Keeton_Strayhorn)

Incidentally... That report that you're quoting got her sued.

News on lawsuit (http://www.news8austin.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=169531)

Still searching to see how the civil suit turned out, but it was found that there was no evidence to shut down one of the foster care camps that the targeted in her report:

http://www.news8austin.com/content/your_news/?SecID=278&ArID=175921 [/*]

It does appear she was throwing her weight around.
An employee claims that molestation accusations were untrue.
Being falsely accused of sexual abuse is horrendous, when I have more time, I wanna look for more details.
However there were problems at the facility.
The judges found Woodside Trails merited just eleven of the 32 violations that state inspectors found -- and it immediately corrected four of them, so its license should not have been revoked.
That still sounds like a lot of violations.
Can you guess my favorite part ?

The documents show managers and staff at the Department of Family and Protective Services made questionable decisions in handling allegations at Woodside Trails Therapeutic Camp.
It appears they're the ones that accused the staff members.
Does this mean CPS reported this to the comptroller ?

evalles

04-29-2008, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
All the posters ranting against foster care seem to be ill informed about what is being done with the children removed from this cult. They are being kept separate from the other children. The homes are under strict instructions from CPS to remove any thing (like the color red) that might offend or upset them. They are being treated with kid gloves. CPS is well aware that the world is watching How about we give the shelters a chance to do the right thing before we prejudge them? The local shelter is being supported by local churches with everything they need...material good, volunteers, the works. It is as if the entire community has taken on the care of these kids. Worry about the ones still being abused by the hideous cult...not the ones that were removed to safety.

I need to add something at this point. I married a man who (along with his siblings) was raised from the age of 5 in a state orphanage. Their memories are all positive. They received an education that their widowed mother could never have given them, and all attained success in life. They are all sweet natured, well adjusted people. They even go back for homecomings. I used to sit and listen to them laughing and talking about their years at "the home". I realize not all foster care kids had the same positive experience. But his experience, and that of his three sisters and a brother was good. [/*]

This board is comparing CPS and the mothers.
You're entitled to your own personal biases based on your family's experiences.
You should respect that others will be biased based on their personal experiences.
Empathy is being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
I haven't heard enough to know that every single child was abused. Any children that have been abused are away from their abusers, so IMO that problem is being taken care of.
That leaves children that haven't been abused and the parents that aren't abusers. That problem hasn't been solved as there are likely innocent families that are separated right now.
In their eyes, they're being forced to let total strangers take care of their children.
That has to be terrifying, they have no idea what kind of people their children are with.
Can you imagine it ?

evalles

04-30-2008, 12:44 AM

I'm sorry if some are unable to handle an opposing viewpoint.
Snide remarks won't shut me up.

Details

04-30-2008, 01:04 AM

The children are my top interest. I hope we can help the mothers as well - but for now, the best way to help them is to make them realize that they cannot continue to abuse their children by allowing Jeffs and his ilk total control over their children.

evalles

04-30-2008, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz

Snide remarks? Look in a mirror.

You're imagining that others can't handle an opposing viewpoint, by the way. I'm a big fan of opposing viewpoints ... when they're thoughtful, logical, and when the poster isn't hip-deep in his or her own story/situation/agenda. [/*]

But you didn't tell me what was wrong with with the fact I don't think every single child was abused

evalles

04-30-2008, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by skytalk

You don't have to answer this. But I am curious as to whether you have been a battered woman.

You can pm me if you prefer. And if you don't want to answer, that's ok too. [/*]

I sent you a pm to answer your question. I'm going to bed now. Busy day at work tomorrow.

Carol25

04-30-2008, 01:48 AM

Isn't it nice to think the child born today may well be spared that life? Maybe a new beginning for the next generation! :rose: :rose:

I hope the new mother see the children in CPS's care and thinks she'd rather see her child with toys, bikes and smiling!

Details

04-30-2008, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by evalles
But you didn't tell me what was wrong with with the fact I don't think every single child was abused [/*]That's been answered a ton of times. Living in the cult is child abuse. So long as the parents have no choice about what happens to their child (and that is what the evidence shows - they either have no control, or they agree with the abuse) - living there puts the children under the control of an abusive pedophile. No different than if Jeffs was their father living in the same house.

Rainkiss

04-30-2008, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by evalles

This board is comparing CPS and the mothers.
You're entitled to your own personal biases based on your family's experiences.
You should respect that others will be biased based on their personal experiences.
Empathy is being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
I haven't heard enough to know that every single child was abused. Any children that have been abused are away from their abusers, so IMO that problem is being taken care of.
That leaves children that haven't been abused and the parents that aren't abusers. That problem hasn't been solved as there are likely innocent families that are separated right now.
In their eyes, they're being forced to let total strangers take care of their children.
That has to be terrifying, they have no idea what kind of people their children are with.
Can you imagine it ? [/*]

I'm glad to hear you believe the problem is being taken care of. As for the children who aren't being abused, and who the system finds will not be in danger of abuse (Texas's law is for the FORSEEABLE future, not the immediate future, by the way), the problem of which parents to return them to remains. DNA testing of the children is complete, but that of the parents seems to be stalled due to lack of cooperation from the parents.

I'm sure it's terrifying to have your child removed, and to not know who is caring for them. But, apparently, the thought of being identified as the parent of a child of an underage mother terrifies them more.

THAT, I can not empathize with. These parents have been given the first step in having the children returned, if there is no danger to them at home, and they are not taking it. Instead, they're trying for the same public outrage that got their children returned when they were removed at Stone Creek in 1953 in Arizona. The pictures of weeping children being taken from their mothers caused such a backlash that the governor of Arizona lost his job. The children were returned, after two years in state custody.

Article comparing the two raids, some good info: Time/CNN (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1730472,00.html)

The problem is that the FLDS is counting on public outcry to get ALL of the children, INCLUDING those who've been abused or are likely to be abused (like the 12 year old girls who've already probably got a husband picked out for them).

GardenGirl

04-30-2008, 08:25 AM

How are we to literally stop a cult dead in it's tracks without these harsh measures?
I know it's hard to hold the mothers and fathers accountable as they themselves are victims of an isolated society bent on the perpetual sexual abuse of it's women and girls, but, what else is there to do?
If we do make them live up to the letter of our laws, then we have no choice except to mete out the punishments necessary.

All of the children are abused. If they are not sexually abused yet, they will be in future. The religion and it's doctrines demand it.
I have no problem with adults choosing to live a lifestyle which involves the sharing of one man. To each her own. That's not the issue here.
The issue is that people under the age of 18 are raised, within the walls of America, to be totally unaware of their right to self-determination.
This means that they don't know they can choose for themselves. They've been raised to believe that it's all about getting to heaven on the coattails of their man, the vision of multitudes of well-behaved babies inching them ever closer to God himself is like Absinthe to them.
They are brainwashed.
They brainwash their kids because they know no better.

They are grownups. They must be accountable legally.
Welcome to the Real World.

I wish I had a bus. I'd bring them blue jeans and tampons.

GardenGirl

04-30-2008, 08:33 AM

....Furthermore, woman to woman, we should be ashamed that this is happening in our country.

There's not a lot of difference between the prairie dress and the burqua.

dsmith

04-30-2008, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by GardenGirl
....Furthermore, woman to woman, we should be ashamed that this is happening in our country.

There's not a lot of difference between the prairie dress and the burqua. [/*]

well said. I do think that the women and children are better off where they are at. They are safe and will not have to endure any abuse at the hands of the men. By the way anyone know anywhere in the world where the tables are turned, where the women have more than one husband?

Rainkiss

04-30-2008, 08:48 AM

evalles

04-30-2008, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

I'm glad to hear you believe the problem is being taken care of. As for the children who aren't being abused, and who the system finds will not be in danger of abuse (Texas's law is for the FORSEEABLE future, not the immediate future, by the way), the problem of which parents to return them to remains. DNA testing of the children is complete, but that of the parents seems to be stalled due to lack of cooperation from the parents.

I'm sure it's terrifying to have your child removed, and to not know who is caring for them. But, apparently, the thought of being identified as the parent of a child of an underage mother terrifies them more.

THAT, I can not empathize with. These parents have been given the first step in having the children returned, if there is no danger to them at home, and they are not taking it. Instead, they're trying for the same public outrage that got their children returned when they were removed at Stone Creek in 1953 in Arizona. The pictures of weeping children being taken from their mothers caused such a backlash that the governor of Arizona lost his job. The children were returned, after two years in state custody.

Article comparing the two raids, some good info: Time/CNN (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1730472,00.html)

The problem is that the FLDS is counting on public outcry to get ALL of the children, INCLUDING those who've been abused or are likely to be abused (like the 12 year old girls who've already probably got a husband picked out for them). [/*]

Didn't 40 women go to a shelter ? I'm assuming they have confirmed the parent-child relationship in these cases, right ?
Obviously, not a large number, but considering the hold these women have had over them it could be worse.

Rainkiss

04-30-2008, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Didn't 40 women go to a shelter ? I'm assuming they have confirmed the parent-child relationship in these cases, right ?
Obviously, not a large number, but considering the hold these women have had over them it could be worse. [/*]

Obviously I haven't seen the records, but there may be some question about which children are whose. Easy enough to confirm, yes, she's a nursing mother... but not as easy to determine which of the babies through two-year-olds are whose, particularly if the little ones are calling half the women they see "Mama."

That's pure speculation, of course.

I don't know the ages of the mothers who've gone to the shelters, but I wonder how many of them have older children in custody that they aren't claiming, because they were born before their mothers were adults. It'd be a nightmare to release a very young girl to a mother, have them disappear into an enclave out of the country, then discover that the baby's older sister is a pregnant 13 year old.

GardenGirl

04-30-2008, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by dsmith

well said. I do think that the women and children are better off where they are at. They are safe and will not have to endure any abuse at the hands of the men. By the way anyone know anywhere in the world where the tables are turned, where the women have more than one husband? [/*]

Thanks!!
I think there are matriarchal societies out in the Congo or wherever.
Certain times a year I find the idea attractive. At 48, I'd enjoy a few husbands to do the gardening and maybe build me a screened-in gazebo and fan me and serve me thirst quenching drinks in pretty glasses.
And buy me things.
I think I'll dress them UberNordic.
what do you think?

KatyDid

04-30-2008, 11:26 AM

Carol25

04-30-2008, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by skytalk

Hi GardenGirl-

Long time no see.

And bye. This is my last membership day here.

As regards the topic of multiple mates, I think I have alot in common with Jimmy Carter, "I've sinned in my mind".;) [/*]
where are you going?

raz

04-30-2008, 01:42 PM

I just wanted to state that there are many great foster families out there.
My mother has done foster care for over fourty years.
She turned 76 in March!
She has raised many young girls who ALL have been sexually abused into happy,healthy young ladies that are a bonus to our world.
I'am so proud of her and I know that there are many others who take these children in and love them as we do.
I think of myself as one of the luckest daughters to be able to share her with my sisters. Youngest two are 8 :-)

dsmith

04-30-2008, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by GardenGirl

Thanks!!
I think there are matriarchal societies out in the Congo or wherever.
Certain times a year I find the idea attractive. At 48, I'd enjoy a few husbands to do the gardening and maybe build me a screened-in gazebo and fan me and serve me thirst quenching drinks in pretty glasses.
And buy me things.
I think I'll dress them UberNordic.
what do you think? [/*]

I would need seven of them there husbands one for each day of the week and mine would have to wear those little cloth things lol
I do wonder sometimes why women have to always fight to get rights We out number the men why should we not take over the world and let the men do our bidding

xray ra

04-30-2008, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by skytalk

Resigning my membership. [/*]
Don't forget to let some of us know which club you are joining.!! I want to go:)

Roux

04-30-2008, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
I heard something on the news at noon about there being an unusual number of broken bones (I presume old breaks already healed) among the sect children. I had to go outside to show a worker where to get started, and could not find any station reporting on it when I got back. Did anyone else hear this? I wish they would just tell the news and not blurt out teasers for later on in a newscast. Now I am thinking I was hearing things.:shrug: [/*]

I think poster Carol mentioned that Fox was covering it.

Rainkiss

04-30-2008, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
I heard something on the news at noon about there being an unusual number of broken bones (I presume old breaks already healed) among the sect children. I had to go outside to show a worker where to get started, and could not find any station reporting on it when I got back. Did anyone else hear this? I wish they would just tell the news and not blurt out teasers for later on in a newscast. Now I am thinking I was hearing things.:shrug: [/*]

I don't know about an "unusual" number, one in ten kids... If you grow up helping on a farm, accidents to happen. I've got an old, healed, broken finger, myself. It's the hinted at age of the children with breaks that disturbs me.

Rainkiss

04-30-2008, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
Most of the children I saw were too young to be out working in the Texas heat on a farm (this from someone who spent a little time on a family farm as a child). Out of the five of us, only one broken bone....and that was from falling from a tree while building a treehouse. If the story of the broken bones is true, it is worrisome. Will we ever know the whole truth of what went on in that cult? [/*]

Probably, we'll never know it all.

I was out pulling weeds in the garden in grade school, never did me any harm, and gave me an appreciation for where food comes from. Evenings, after school, and after the sun has started to set, would be okay, I'd imagine. I've got nothing against putting kids to chores.

And, 41 broken bones in over 400 kids is still 1 in 10.

This is me, trying to keep an open mind about it all.

Devotion

04-30-2008, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Texanne

I heard something on the news at noon about there being an unusual number of broken bones

(I presume old breaks already healed) among the sect children.

I had to go outside to show a worker where to get started, and could not find any station reporting on it when I got back. Did anyone else hear this? I wish they would just tell the news and not blurt out teasers for later on in a newscast. Now I am thinking I was hearing things.:shrug: [/*]

Is there a possibility the men broke the childrens bones while beating them and holding their heads under the water to break them from crying??
remember there is no smiling, kissing or affection or bonding being given to these children..... guessing:only..

Rainkiss

04-30-2008, 04:56 PM

I'm with you, there, I hope it wasn't abuse. My brother and I both came out of childhood with a broken bone, each, and neither was abuse. (I shut my finger in a car door, my own fault, he got his wrestling around with a buddy during a sleepover at the house.)

Sure, Devotion, it's possible it was abuse. but it's also possible it wasn't.

I've got a lot of nastiness from this whole thing, which certainly tempts me to hold the lot of 'em in the worst light possible. But, until I hear there's evidence of this particular crime, I'll withhold judgment.

evalles

05-01-2008, 12:40 AM

According to the FLDS attorney, the mothers informed the state that some children suffered from brittle bone disease.
I've read that in really bad cases, a bone can be broken by something as small as changing a diaper. I don't know if this is true in all cases, but there was a family charged with abuse when their baby had a couple broken bones and then the child had several more while in foster care before she was diagnosed.

I thought this was a very rare disease.

If I remember correctly, it's genetic.

Details

05-01-2008, 03:07 AM

According to the report from Texas, they have not been x-raying all of the kids - it wasn't a part of the standard exam. So those 41 broken bones may well not be all of them.

36 missing boys, 58% underage pregnancy rate, broken bones, sexual abuse of the boys - wonder what more is to come?

Rainkiss

05-01-2008, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Texanne

The brittle bone disease is very rare. It is also easily spotted as they grow older because they exhibit an abnormal appearance due to so many broken bones. I have not read where any of them exhibited such an appearance. But you go ahead an continue in your nonstop excuse making for this evil cult. You never seem to miss a chance to defend them , so you will forgive me if I become suspicious of your motives. [/*]

Actually, I'd rather things like this are brought up. It's a possibility, and one that the doctors should look into. If the adults from the YFZ ranch are going to be prosecuted, let it be for existing abuses. There's enough inbreeding that it's very possible another genetic disorder runs through these kids.

I imagine the disorder is easy enough to test for, and the truth of it will come out soon enough.

evalles

05-01-2008, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by Texanne

The brittle bone disease is very rare. It is also easily spotted as they grow older because they exhibit an abnormal appearance due to so many broken bones. I have not read where any of them exhibited such an appearance. But you go ahead an continue in your nonstop excuse making for this evil cult. You never seem to miss a chance to defend them , so you will forgive me if I become suspicious of your motives. [/*]

I was making excuses for them ?
A poster said they would probably try to use this as an excuse, and I simply stated that the attorney for FLDS had ALREADY made a statement that the parents had told CPS previously that some of the children had brittle bone disease.
I hope that they find some kids that aren't abused and some parents that aren't abusers, so that I will have someone to defend.
Until I hear what comes out in court, I'm assuming that both the FLDS and the state are using every trick they can to cover their respective butts.

johnielee333

05-02-2008, 09:56 AM

there is proof of abuse within the FLDS sects starting from the 1800s on up. it has never stopped. it will never stop until we stop it. this is the USA's fault. they have known about the abuse of children & women since day one & they had the power in their hands to stop it but they didnt. i blame the USA for all of this. the goverment,LE & all of the higher up's. they are all at fault. :flamemad: they need to stop the madness !!!!!!!

Rainkiss

05-02-2008, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by johnielee333
there is proof of abuse within the FLDS sects starting from the 1800s on up. it has never stopped. it will never stop until we stop it. this is the USA's fault. they have known about the abuse of children & women since day one & they had the power in their hands to stop it but they didnt. i blame the USA for all of this. the goverment,LE & all of the higher up's. they are all at fault. :flamemad: they need to stop the madness !!!!!!! [/*]

What are YOU going to do about it, Johnielee? Personally. Not just you, everyone out there. Now that you know what goes on, what will you do to stop it? How can you help the victims of abuse, either those from the FLDS compounds, or the victims of child or spousal abuse in your own community?

Just wondering.

Devotion

05-02-2008, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by GardenGirl
How are we to literally stop a cult dead in it's tracks without these harsh measures?

I know it's hard to hold the mothers and fathers accountable as they themselves are victims of an isolated society bent on the perpetual sexual abuse of it's women and girls, but, what else is there to do?

If we do make them live up to the letter of our laws, then we have no choice except to mete out the punishments necessary.

All of the children are abused.

If they are not sexually abused yet, they will be in future.

The religion and it's doctrines demand it.
I have no problem with adults choosing to live a lifestyle which involves the sharing of one man. To each her own. That's not the issue here.
The issue is that people under the age of 18 are raised, within the walls of America, to be totally unaware of their right to self-determination.

This means that they don't know they can choose for themselves.
They've been raised to believe that it's all about getting to heaven on the coattails of their man, the vision of multitudes of well-behaved babies inching them ever closer to God himself is like Absinthe to them.
They are brainwashed.
They brainwash their kids because they know no better.

They are grownups. They must be accountable legally.
Welcome to the Real World.
[/*]

Good Points!
IMO...It's all about control, sex and money by sick, powerful (pedofile) men using words like, religion, god and charity to get their way and slip by the Laws of the Land.

Any time people hide behind guarded Fences, for generations proves "they are HIDING their actions & deeds" from the rest of the world, for a no good reason!

IF their actions and deeds are so PURE why hide and LIE behind fences that have to be guarded ?....jmo

Devotion

05-02-2008, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by johnielee333

There is proof of abuse within the FLDS sects starting from the 1800s on up.
It has never stopped. It will never stop until we stop it.
This is the USA's fault.
They have known about the abuse of children & women since day one & they had the power in their hands to stop it but they didnt.

I blame the USA for all of this. The goverment, LE & all of the higher up's.
They are all at fault.... :flamemad: ... they need to stop the madness !!!!!!! [/*]

YET, all we hear is how bad the women and children are being treated in CHINA working in the sweat shops!

johnielee333

05-02-2008, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

What are YOU going to do about it, Johnielee? Personally. Not just you, everyone out there. Now that you know what goes on, what will you do to stop it? How can you help the victims of abuse, either those from the FLDS compounds, or the victims of child or spousal abuse in your own community?

Just wondering. [/*]

well if i had the power to make the goverment,LE,the US army & who ever else we needed, to go in every FLDS sect & arrest & break them up, I WOULD !!! i wish i did. i wish i could stop all the abuse everywhere in this whole world. all i can do is voice it to whom ever i can.

evalles

05-02-2008, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Tiadeerin
"Are the children better with CPS or with their mothers?"

I've been pondering this same question ever since this whole thing started.

First, let me say that for over 16 years I was employed in the offices of several different facilities that took in foster children. The great majority of foster parents & case workers are extremely dedicated, hard working individuals who have only the best interest of the children foremost in their thoughts & actions. In Texas, the CPS "powers that be" are strictly political animals whose sole aim in life is to keep all the politicans happy. In both rural & urban areas, some citizens have been known to complain to their state representatives that they do not want "undesirable" children in their neghborhoods. One local man was heard to say that he would rather live next door to a pig pen than live in a town with foster kids. CPS then starts up a program of harrasment of affected facilities. These facilities are "nit picked" without mercy over bureacratic trivial matters.............we're talking things like "You don't have your weekly menu posted", " You have home canned vegetables in your pantry", "Little Jimmy's file is missing his intake record" "You're short 2 sq ft. on Little Jimmy's room", and on & on & on. Eventually this treatment takes a toll & some foster parents just give up rather than fight this uphill battle all the time.

Of course, I don't think the FLDS kids should be allowed to stay in an abusive environment, but I'm not sure that Texas CPS has the wisdom to take care of them either.

I think that we can best help these kids by keeping in contact with our State Representatives & let them know that we want & expect these children to be properly cared for. Politians are the only thing that the CPS"higher ups" listen to. [/*]

Good to hear from someone who knows.

Rainkiss

05-02-2008, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Tiadeerin

*snipped for length, it's at the top of the page...*

Of course, I don't think the FLDS kids should be allowed to stay in an abusive environment, but I'm not sure that Texas CPS has the wisdom to take care of them either.

I think that we can best help these kids by keeping in contact with our State Representatives & let them know that we want & expect these children to be properly cared for. Politians are the only thing that the CPS"higher ups" listen to. [/*]

Thanks for bringing your experience. Sadly, there's no alternative that I know of, either they get left in the abusive situation at the ranch, or CPS takes them. :shrug:

evalles

05-03-2008, 02:09 AM

CPS Supervisor Accused Of Child Molestation May 1, 2008

PHOENIX -- A Child Protective Services supervisor is accused of sexually molesting a 4-year-old girl and two teenage boys, Phoenix police said

http://www.kpho.com/news/16121583/detail.html

evalles

05-03-2008, 02:21 AM

Floridians were shocked last week when police announced that the spokesman for the state's Department of Children and Families had been arrested and charged with peddling child pornography. But buried in news accounts of the case was a curious detail: the official in question had listed the state's current Republican Governor, Charlie Crist, as a reference when he applied for his post in 2005.

Some evidence indicates that he may have met one of the boys on the job, and that he may have had additional victims

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/How_well_did_Florida_Gov._know_0207.html

evalles

05-03-2008, 03:59 AM

Authorities in New York City thought Caprice Reid wasn't being properly supervised by her mother. So they decided to "put the child first" and put the child in foster care. They made a "child focused" decision. They "erred on the side of the child." Eleven months after placement in her third foster home, Caprice Reid, then age four, was dead.
Death did not come quickly. She was starved. She was dehydrated. And her body was covered with bruises. Police say she was tied to a chair and beaten with a stick for four days until she could no longer walk.

The foster home was licensed by one of the scores of private agencies that handle foster care for the city in the midst of a sudden shortage of foster home beds caused by the city's decision to effectively abandon family preservation. The home was licensed even though another agency had found the home unfit just a few months earlier.
About a week before she died, Caprice Reid's mother saw her daughter for the last time. The little girl clung to her mother's neck and said "Don't go, Mommy. I love you."

http://www.nccpr.org/newissues/3.html:read:

China Marie Davis was placed in foster care in Arizona when she was a little over a year old. Ten months later, China Marie Davis' autopsy revealed two broken collarbones, a broken left arm, a broken right rib, two fractures of the left upper arm, a fracture of the right upper arm, broken left wrist, a broken left hand, a broken left forearm, a broken right wrist, a broken right forearm, fractures of both thigh bones and a compression fracture of the spine.
No one suspected anything because her foster mother always dressed her in such pretty outfits

Somebody "erred on the side of the child" and placed Corey Greer of Treasure Island, Florida, in a foster home that would later be described by police as "filthy and overcrowded." The home was licensed for four children. By the time Corey Greer died in his crib of dehydration, 12 were living there. The foster mother was convicted of manslaughter and third degree murder.
Corey Greer might have survived the overcrowding, if only he had been white. According to a witness at the foster mother's trial, the foster mother said that touching black children "just gives me the willies." According to the witness, the foster mother referred to Corey Greer as "a big black blob."

Authorities in Massachusetts decided to "put the child first" and take seven-year-old Michelle Walton away from her parents. They made a "child focused" decision. They "erred on the side of the child."
Three years later, the body of Michelle Walton was found in the dirty hallway of her foster home, under 380 pounds of Sheetrock. Her foster mother says it was an accident. But a judge found that it was murder. And he found that Michelle was chronically sexually abused during her time in "care."
No one has been charged. According to the Boston Globe, Michelle's mother "heads to work every day with a worn Peanuts knapsack on her back crammed with her daughter's autopsy report and assorted other documents that chronicle her death and proffers them to most anyone interested. Not many are.
"'I carry 'em because it makes it easier for my sanity ... It helps me from going insane. Or maybe it just keeps her alive a little bit longer.''

Details

05-03-2008, 04:01 AM

CPS employee molests children - it's news, prosecuted, investigated, reported, deplored, and corrected. FLDS molests children - under orders from the leaders of the cult.

Child molesters are everywhere, and you can never, ever, ever detect or stop them all. All you can do is to do prosecute and keep stopping them as they pop up. But no organization - not the priesthood, not CPS, not teachers, not Boy Scouts, not fathers and mothers, not foster parents, is ever immune to them.

GardenGirl

05-03-2008, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by MarchHare1
CPS.

No girl child should be raised to believe she is only destined for a life as a teenage brood mare and no boy child should be exiled because the older men feel they may be competition for the girls.

and every child should get to play.

I shudder when I think of those sterile dorm style rooms at YFZ, devoid of toys, color, warmth of any kind. [/*]

...And we wonder why and how they can grow up and perpetuate the next generation.
They are devoid of souls. They are empty. They've not been allowed to be full.
Gonna take a lot of therapy...

Devotion

05-03-2008, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by MarchHare1

sounds like he was arrested because his actions were criminal and WRONG.

I would also assume most of his collegues are appalled and disgusted by him,
and that his actions were definately in that terrible minority of people who do those sorts of things.

Whereas the FLDS under Jeffs, especially, has normalized such crimes,

made his flock believe they (crimes) are holy actions from on high,
and where the men and women as a whole are NOT appalled or disgusted by those crimes,

but instead raise their children to submit to them or commit them.

I think I would take my chances with CPS,

and a miniscule minority of wrong-doers there, then with YFZ and the majority consensus there that

child-molestation is God's plan....... [/*]

After reading about this cult, it's my opinion that this CULT is raising generations to do evil, break the law and commit unspeakable acts to children.

In my view, it's Urgent we insist that our LE and Elected Officials make wise decisions to put a permanent STOP to All this "darkness".....jmo

Details

05-03-2008, 06:36 PM

It's a signature - at the bottom of all of her posts. Just like I don't think this is the slinky admiration forum. If there's a problem, a PM or asking Coldwater for a ruling in a PM to her may be the best way to go.

Details

05-03-2008, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by GardenGirl
...And we wonder why and how they can grow up and perpetuate the next generation.
They are devoid of souls. They are empty. They've not been allowed to be full.
Gonna take a lot of therapy... [/*]Reports on the children are somewhat positive - sounds like they're opening up, blossoming a little. That's all surface - I'm sure there's plenty more work to be done, and they'll feel the repercussions of having been raised by a cult for life, but it is a good start. Even with all reasonable attempts made to match FLDS culture, they're still getting an experience of life without abuse, a caretaker who is not a cult member.

I love that the girls are getting sewing machines since they asked to do that.

Carol25

05-04-2008, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
GOOD NEWS.....the kids at the shelter in my county are actually beginning to relax, smile, and be more talkative. We got about 30 little ones (6 mo. to age 5) and 5 or 6 teenage mothers who were said to be the mothers of some of the younger tots, plus they were young enough themselves to qualify for this shelter. There have been so many TRUCK LOADS of donations that they have to keep them in a building in the town where the workers at Kidz Harbor can just come and get what they need when they need it. The girls have asked to be able to continue in their favorite hobby....sewing. So, someone donated a sewing machine, losts of cloth and sewing materials. I am thrilled at that because, being someone who gets the urge to sew sometimes, I can tell you it is relaxing and fulfilling at the same time. I am in to more "decorative" sewing, so I can tell you it fills an artistic need. Anyway, I feel a little better about them, because at first the workers were concerned about their quietness. I look forward to the day they drive the workers nuts with their chatter and laughter. [/*]
Texanne, this is so good to hear! I appreciate you posting this and keeping us updated on the children! Please continue to do so.

How nice that they are more relaxed, are smiling and talkative! It's just so good to hear! Thanks so much!

Just curious, is anyone reading to the children? I realize it is probably hard to find books on the 2=4age level without fantasies, but there will be some.

When the time comes that they can begin listening to stories, the counselors might want to check into bibliotherapy books. They help children heal from lives of crisis.

johnielee333

05-04-2008, 04:29 PM

:seeya: :rose: :patriot: TO EVERYONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

johnielee333

05-04-2008, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by MarchHare1
I wonder if they have ever even played a simple game of checkers or tic-tac-toe? [/*]

i would guess not. those poor kids havent really done anything normal kids have done. its sad. really,really sad. :(

FoxySly

05-04-2008, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Texanne
GOOD NEWS.....the kids at the shelter in my county are actually beginning to relax, smile, and be more talkative. We got about 30 little ones (6 mo. to age 5) and 5 or 6 teenage mothers who were said to be the mothers of some of the younger tots, plus they were young enough themselves to qualify for this shelter. There have been so many TRUCK LOADS of donations that they have to keep them in a building in the town where the workers at Kidz Harbor can just come and get what they need when they need it. The girls have asked to be able to continue in their favorite hobby....sewing. So, someone donated a sewing machine, losts of cloth and sewing materials. I am thrilled at that because, being someone who gets the urge to sew sometimes, I can tell you it is relaxing and fulfilling at the same time. I am in to more "decorative" sewing, so I can tell you it fills an artistic need. Anyway, I feel a little better about them, because at first the workers were concerned about their quietness. I look forward to the day they drive the workers nuts with their chatter and laughter. [/*]

Dang, this story has made my eyes tear up but I'm trying not to let them fall.

Many decades ago I was put into the first Children's Mental Health facility in Las Vegas. I was the second Child there and the first girl.
My councilor from Junior High came to visit me.

Back in those days teachers, schools, neighbors ect... were told to mind their own business. I was very lucky that so many didn't.

Anyway during the visit my old JH councilor was checking out this new facility and mentioned about me not having my/a sewing machine there. He had not been my councilor for a few years but he had always truly cared about me and donated one in my name.

Sly

xray ra

05-04-2008, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by evalles
CPS Supervisor Accused Of Child Molestation May 1, 2008

PHOENIX -- A Child Protective Services supervisor is accused of sexually molesting a 4-year-old girl and two teenage boys, Phoenix police said

http://www.kpho.com/news/16121583/detail.html [/*]

This has nothing what so ever to do with the cps in Texas. And the Pedophile in question was molesting his own family members.
Stick to the subject!!!

walton

05-04-2008, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by FoxySly

Dang, this story has made my eyes tear up but I'm trying not to let them fall.

Many decades ago I was put into the first Children's Mental Health facility in Las Vegas. I was the second Child there and the first girl.
My councilor from Junior High came to visit me.

Back in those days teachers, schools, neighbors ect... were told to mind their own business. I was very lucky that so many didn't.

Anyway during the visit my old JH councilor was checking out this new facility and mentioned about me not having my/a sewing machine there. He had not been my councilor for a few years but he had always truly cared about me and donated one in my name.

Sly [/*]

:rose: For you Foxy

Carol25

05-05-2008, 12:05 AM

evalles

05-05-2008, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by xray ra

This has nothing what so ever to do with the cps in Texas. And the Pedophile in question was molesting his own family members.
Stick to the subject!!! [/*]

The subject is about whether the kids are better off w/ CPS or their mothers.

If the mother's actions/history is in question, why shouldn't CPS's be also ?
What does it matter that he was molesting family members ?

CPS supervsisor by day, child molester by night.

To compare, you have to look at both.

Carol25

05-05-2008, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by tirante

"..To compare, you have to look at both."

Good idea. Why do you not try it? [/*]
:beer:

evalles

05-05-2008, 08:38 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tirante

"..To compare, you have to look at both."

Good idea. Why do you not try it? [/*][/QUOTE

I have, I think the FLDS practice of polygamy and marrying off young girls to old men is deplorable.
I'm sure there are some innocent parents involved, and I don't agree with making them all suffer for the crimes of the guilty.
1/3 of the the couples were monagamous and their children were also taken.
I think the state was wrong to take all the children and I think CPS and the family court have way too much power.

xray ra

05-05-2008, 09:41 AM

Evalles, You are sure 1/3 are innocent. Hmmmmm. Which 1/3?

evalles

05-05-2008, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by xray ra
Evalles, You are sure 1/3 are innocent. Hmmmmm. Which 1/3? [/*]

I said 1/3 of the couples are monogamous.

xray ra

05-05-2008, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by evalles

I said 1/3 of the couples are monogamous. [/*]

If they are monogamous and have a legal marraige, what are their names and the names of their children? TIA? Do you have link? :rolleyes:

Rainkiss

05-05-2008, 10:49 AM

The biggest hindrance to returning the children of the "innocent" parents is that those same parents have muddied the waters to the point where they've having problems determining which children might belong to those parents.

Also, how can they determine which children haven't been abused when the children have been brainwashed to the point where they won't answer the simplest questions truthfully? (And, I have to guess, "Who's your Mommy?" should be the simplest question you can ask a child.)

They had to remove the mothers from the shelter because they were doing everything they could to confuse the situation, from rubbing names off ID bracelets to encouraging the children to keep on lying.

Also... I have some questions about just how "innocent" that 1/3 might be. I'm sure that it's possible there are men in the compound with only one wife... Apparently, you have to have a certain amount of status in the faith to be assigned wives, and it's perfectly reasonable to believe that there are (likely the younger) men who haven't yet earned enough status to be assigned a second wife. YET.

Ask the children of those unions (if, of course, you can identify them) what they believe about polygamy, and about the age a girl can be married. THEN decide whether or not they should be returned.

evalles

05-05-2008, 11:36 AM

They've obviously given answers, CPS just wont accept the answers given.
Are they questioning them til they get the answer they want ?
They won't believe anything the child says unless they say they were abused ?
I hope their interrogations are being taped.

xray ra

05-05-2008, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by evalles

I said 1/3 of the couples are monogamous. [/*]

I'm still waiting for the links.

1/3 of how many? No one knows the exact count of the population of the ranch.
1/3 of men? 1/3 of women? 1/3 of childen? 1/3 of Bs?:flamemad:

Rainkiss

05-05-2008, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by evalles
They've obviously given answers, CPS just wont accept the answers given.
Are they questioning them til they get the answer they want ?
They won't believe anything the child says unless they say they were abused ?
I hope their interrogations are being taped. [/*]

Evalles, please... Have you ever worked with abused children? Do you honestly think that the first time a child is asked what happened, the answer, "Oh, yeah, my Daddy rapes me?"

It takes time for the child to be able to work through things to answer truthfully. They have to get past being told by their abuser that they can never tell. They're told that nobody will believe them. They're told that, even if anybody does beleive them, it's THEIR fault. And, with a mess like this one, they're told that's how it's supposed to be. They have to learn to trust the person they're talking to, and these kids have been taught that the very people who are trying to help them are hands of the devil, trying to tempt them to hell.

evalles

05-05-2008, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Evalles, please... Have you ever worked with abused children? Do you honestly think that the first time a child is asked what happened, the answer, "Oh, yeah, my Daddy rapes me?"

It takes time for the child to be able to work through things to answer truthfully. They have to get past being told by their abuser that they can never tell. They're told that nobody will believe them. They're told that, even if anybody does beleive them, it's THEIR fault. And, with a mess like this one, they're told that's how it's supposed to be. They have to learn to trust the person they're talking to, and these kids have been taught that the very people who are trying to help them are hands of the devil, trying to tempt them to hell. [/*]

No, I've never worked with abused children.
There are numerous cases in which children have been coerced, threated and asked leading questions by anyone from LE to psychologists to CPS workers.
What I'm trying to say is that Texas is under enormous scrutiny for this. I don't put it past any government employee to do whatever it takes to justify taking every child from every parent.
It's called self preservation.