Are the children better with CPS or with their mothers?

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by evalles


No, I've never worked with abused children.
There are numerous cases in which children have been coerced, threated and asked leading questions by anyone from LE to psychologists to CPS workers.
What I'm trying to say is that Texas is under enormous scrutiny for this. I don't put it past any government employee to do whatever it takes to justify taking every child from every parent.
It's called self preservation. [/*]

I have. I once worked with a sixteen year old girl, in custody because she set her younger sister's bed on fire. With her sister in it. Their father had a thing for little girls, and the older girl had gotten too old for him, you see... She hated herself... because she got her daddy in trouble, with the attention from the fire.

I'm sure both LE and CPS are VERY aware of the amount of scrutiny that they are and will be under with this case, which should be enough to ensure that interviews are being taped and/or carefully monitored.

Besides... are you going to tell me the pregnant teens WEREN'T abused? Are you going to tell me that the younger girls were NOT going to be married off soon after puberty?

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by evalles


I said 1/3 of the couples.
There have been numerous posts stating that all these children were raped and abused and I've never seen a link showing that is the case. I will, however try to find the article that said 2/3 are polygamous and the rest are monogamous. [/*]

I could be wrong, not planning to read the whole board again... But, I don't think ALL of the children were abused. I believe every child was IN DANGER of abuse. Big difference.

For example... if you were dealing with the family I mentioned in the post above this one... would you leave, say, a third, six-year old daughter in that home, or take her, too?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


I could be wrong, not planning to read the whole board again... But, I don't think ALL of the children were abused. I believe every child was IN DANGER of abuse. Big difference.

For example... if you were dealing with the family I mentioned in the post above this one... would you leave, say, a third, six-year old daughter in that home, or take her, too? [/*]

No, there was an imminent risk of death or grave physical harm.
And they had the same parents.
If there was another family living in the house, they would have to leave the house if they wanted to keep their children.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


I could be wrong, not planning to read the whole board again... But, I don't think ALL of the children were abused. I believe every child was IN DANGER of abuse. Big difference.

For example... if you were dealing with the family I mentioned in the post above this one... would you leave, say, a third, six-year old daughter in that home, or take her, too? [/*]

According to the supreme court, there's supposed to be an imminent risk of death or serious physical injury. I don't see how every child was in IMMINENT RISK of either.

[Details]

Originally posted by evalles
...
I'm sure there are some innocent parents involved, and I don't agree with making them all suffer for the crimes of the guilty.
1/3 of the the couples were monagamous and their children were also taken.
I think the state was wrong to take all the children and I think CPS and the family court have way too much power. [/*]You skipped the subject here.

The abuse is not that the child is living with one father and multiple mothers. The abuse is not that a child is living in a polygamous family. That's not child abuse.

The 1/3rd of couples that have not yet gotten a second wife (hey, every guy has to start somewhere - the usual pattern is some years with the first wife before you earn a second) are no different than the ones with a ton of wives. All of them are in the compound, having children who are pedophile fodder, all of them have are under the complete control of Jeffs and his cronies.

Just because they so far have a monogamous relationship, even if that's all they ever have - that doesn't mean anything about the children being safe, nor that they are not abused.


And - if you're reading in the media, you know that there's a lot more abuses CPS is worried about than just the teenage girls. Broken bones (10% of the kids with broken bones - and those are just the ones found incidentally - no x-rays taken on all of them), documentation of rape of the little boys - just within the compound - and stories from escapees and lost boys describe how all this happens - and how pervasively.

Your monogamous couple is not innocent by virtue of their marriage having only two people in it. Not by a long shot.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by evalles


According to the supreme court, there's supposed to be an imminent risk of death or serious physical injury. I don't see how every child was in IMMINENT RISK of either. [/*]

Please provide a link that the Supreme Court of the United States requires proof of "imminent risk of death or serious injury" .

The Mission statement of most Child Protection Organizations includes protections against future abuse.

BTW I'm still waiting for the 1/3 monogamous legal innocent names so we can let them all go home:o

[Details]

Originally posted by xray ra
....BTW I'm still waiting for the 1/3 monogamous legal innocent names so we can let them all go home:o [/*]No need. Being monogamous doesn't make them innocent. There never was any allegation in court or elsewhere that the abuse these children suffered was due to polygamy. It's due to underage sex, force marriage, plain old abuse, and teaching them that any age is OK for sex when the prophet assigns you.

Doesn't matter how many wives the father has (if we even could know who the father was on these kids - or the mother).


This is just a context switch - to an irrelevant topic. Is a 14 year old girl being given to an old man for sex less abused if her parents are monagomous rather than polygamous?

[xray ra]

No Details, actually, I am still waiting for Evalles to provide the link to the 1/3 of the "innocent" "monogamous" whatever, couples in this cult that she continues to profess that need their children back.. What are their names? What are their childrens names? What are their DOB's ?
If I was a good and honest person, I think I could get my kids back. JMO, IMO ect....

[Rainkiss]

State of Texas: Statues (http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/FA/content/htm/fa.005.00.000261.00.htm)

Above is a link to the State of Texas statue on child abuse and neglect.

And...



2234.23 Identifying Insufficient Protective Capacity

CPS January 2008

When the worker identifies a danger of serious harm to a child in the home, the worker immediately assesses whether the child’s parents or caretakers are willing and able to protect the child from the danger, especially in regard to the vulnerabilities the child might have in regard to the particular danger.

Defining Protective Capacity

In a family, protective capacities are strengths or capabilities that control or prevent threats of harm from arising or from affecting a child.

Protective capacities are factors or resources within the family that can or do promote the child’s safety. They include, but are not limited to, parental caretaking skills, attachment to the child, awareness of and ability to interpret the child’s needs, a positive motivation to nurture or meet the child’s needs, and a willingness and ability to act protectively when the child is threatened with harm.

Assessing the interaction of protective capacities and threats involves determining whether the protective capacity is both present and strong enough to prevent the recurrence of – or control the present level of – a threat to child safety.

Assessing Insufficient Protective Capacity

In the initial safety assessment, the worker focuses first on any insufficient protective capacities the parent or primary caregiver may have. A child may be unsafe because protective factors are absent or because family members choose not to act protectively even though they may be able to act protectively when willing.

There are several dynamics, conditions, or situations, such as those listed below, that alone or in combination can indicate that the protective capacity of caretakers in the home is insufficient to protect a child from a danger in the home.

The worker must recognize any failed or inadequate protective capacities that leave children vulnerable to dangers in the situation, including those listed below:

· Does any caretaker appear unwilling or unable to protect any child from other persons who may inflict serious harm, such as a paramour, family member, or friend?

· Are there indications that any child is being pressured to recant his or her allegations of abuse or neglect?

· Is there no support network that could help ensure the safety of any child or provide adequate supervision of any child, such as a relative, a close family friend, church members, a neighbor, or community members?

· Does any caregiver describe any child in extremely negative terms or have extremely unrealistic expectations of any child?

· Does any caregiver reject necessary protective interventions, appear unconcerned about any child’s safety, refuse access to any child, or appear ready to flee with or hide any child?

From here (http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/Handbooks/CPS/Files/CPS_pg_2234_2.asp#CPS_2234_22)

The Texas CPS Handbook.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
State of Texas: Statues (http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/FA/content/htm/fa.005.00.000261.00.htm)

Above is a link to the State of Texas statue on child abuse and neglect.

And...

Great link Rainkiss "any person in the home" who my have been a problem in the past . Love it.





From here (http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/Handbooks/CPS/Files/CPS_pg_2234_2.asp#CPS_2234_22)

The Texas CPS Handbook. [/*]:)

[Details]

Nice link Rainkiss - and pretty well defines the FLDS compound - pervasive child abuse, severe risk of, and the parents have zero protective capability (women have no power, men are kicked out if they oppose any action of Jeffs), and try to get kids to keep quiet.

[Rainkiss]

One more link:

childwelfare.gov website (http://www.childwelfare.gov/can/defining/federal.cfm)

Found the FEDERAL definition:

Federal legislation provides a foundation for States by identifying a minimum set of acts or behaviors that define child abuse and neglect. The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA) (42 U.S.C.A. §5106g), as amended by the Keeping Children and Families Safe Act of 2003, defines child abuse and neglect as, at minimum:

* Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation; or

* An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.

This definition of child abuse and neglect refers specifically to parents and other caregivers. A "child" under this definition generally means a person who is under the age of 18 or who is not an emancipated minor.

While CAPTA provides definitions for sexual abuse and the special cases related to withholding or failing to provide medically indicated treatment, it does not provide specific definitions for other types of maltreatment such as physical abuse, neglect, or emotional abuse. While Federal legislation sets minimum standards, each State is responsible for providing its own definition of maltreatment within civil and criminal contexts.

So, the federal law sets the minimum standard, and leaves it to the individual states to further define it. So, in this case, the Texas law applies.

[evalles]

Originally posted by xray ra


Please provide a link that the Supreme Court of the United States requires proof of "imminent risk of death or serious injury" .

The Mission statement of most Child Protection Organizations includes protections against future abuse.

BTW I'm still waiting for the 1/3 monogamous legal innocent names so we can let them all go home:o [/*]

I'm at work - have info marked on home computer and will post.

OVAL&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
One more link:

childwelfare.gov website (http://www.childwelfare.gov/can/defining/federal.cfm)

Found the FEDERAL definition:



So, the federal law sets the minimum standard, and leaves it to the individual states to further define it. So, in this case, the Texas law applies. [/*]

These are definitions, not guidelines for removal.

[xray ra]

Thanks Rainkiss for posting the LINK to the MINIMUM requirement for removal of the children by the Children Protectection Services.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by evalles


These are definitions, not guidelines for removal. [/*]

That's correct, I haven't found any federal guidelines for removal of children. However, I posted the guidelines for removal of children for the state of Texas earlier, specifically, the section on "Insufficient Protective Capacity."

· Does any caretaker appear unwilling or unable to protect any child from other persons who may inflict serious harm, such as a paramour, family member, or friend?

· Are there indications that any child is being pressured to recant his or her allegations of abuse or neglect?

· Is there no support network that could help ensure the safety of any child or provide adequate supervision of any child, such as a relative, a close family friend, church members, a neighbor, or community members?

· Does any caregiver reject necessary protective interventions, appear unconcerned about any child’s safety, refuse access to any child, or appear ready to flee with or hide any child?

These four points... The adults ALL seem unwilling to protect the children from abuse. Nobody has called the police to report teen girls being "married" off to old men and becoming pregnant.

There's certainly evidence of mothers encouraging the children to lie, and actively working to hide even the identities of the children. The girls are so pressured not to report in the FIRST place that they're lying about their ages.

The entire support network, family, friends, church members, AND neighbors are part of the FLDS, and part of the problem, see above point.

And, the adults in the compound actively shuttled the children around the compound, attempting to hide them from CPS. None seem inclined to protect any of the children from abuse by picking up one of those cell phones they're so upset about losing to report a crime.

Please let me know if you find federal guidelines for removing children, however, I expect you'll find that it's similar to the definitions of abuse and neglect, the federal government sets a minimum standard, and permits the states to set tighter standards.

[evalles]

Texas Statute

§ 262.101. FILING PETITION BEFORE TAKING POSSESSION OF
CHILD. An original suit filed by a governmental entity that
requests permission to take possession of a child without prior
notice and a hearing must be supported by an affidavit sworn to by a
person with personal knowledge and stating facts sufficient to
satisfy a person of ordinary prudence and caution that:
(1) there is an immediate danger to the physical
health or safety of the child or the child has been a victim of
neglect or sexual abuse and that continuation in the home would be
contrary to the child's welfare;
(2) there is no time, consistent with the physical
health or safety of the child, for a full adversary hearing under
Subchapter C; and
(3) reasonable efforts, consistent with the
circumstances and providing for the safety of the child, were made
to prevent or eliminate the need for the removal of the child.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us./statutes/docs/FA/content/htm/fa.005.00.000262.00.htm#262.102.

[Details]

Sounds good to me. The children were not safe, the police had personal knowledge of that based on both what they saw, and the records they got, and there was no way to have a hearing without even being able to tell who the parents were.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by Details
Sounds good to me. The children were not safe, the police had personal knowledge of that based on both what they saw, and the records they got, and there was no way to have a hearing without even being able to tell who the parents were. [/*]
The children were taken by the state of Texas by the order of a Judge!.

Still waiting for the LINK for the 1/3 of the monogamous innocent couples and their children. And their names. :cool:

[evalles]

Immediate is now or right away. Not someday or maybe in the future.
What reasonable efforts were made to prevent removal as required by TX law ?

[xray ra]

Why should the Great State of Texas not have removed those children from those people at that compound.? There is not any proof that the women there are the childrens mothers.

31 Pregnant teenagers at ONE address!! Hmmmmmhammer

[Details]

Originally posted by evalles
Immediate is now or right away. Not someday or maybe in the future.
What reasonable efforts were made to prevent removal as required by TX law ? [/*]There were no possible reasonable efforts consistient with the safety of the child. If you can't know who is the abuser, there's no way to ensure they are removed. With a cult trying to hide children, with a record of shuffling them around, any children left behind would likely be instantly gone to another compound - not a chance CPS can take.

The danger is immediate. If not removed, they will continue to experience the child abuse of now, likely be moved elsewhere to hide them from the law, and thus immediately be put onto their future as either an underage concubine and breeding stock, a future pedophile, or a thrown away child.

[Details]

Originally posted by xray ra
The children were taken by the state of Texas by the order of a Judge!. [/*]Yeah, but no full adversarial hearing - since without DNA or consistient stories, no way to know who the parents even were to have the hearing!

[xray ra]

evalles. 1/3 of the children would be appr.120 children. How about just give me 80 names of children that you know "for sure" are not being abused or not going to be abused in the next few years.
Or how about that LINK

[LLaFren]

I am so glad someone else taught me how to use the ignore option on this board, otherwise I would be by banned at this point.

I have yet to understand how someone can quote so called facts and not provide a link to those "facts"

Why is it so hard to understand that risk can be there with actual numbers to show why the children are at risk.

[xray ra]

Here is my link:
http://myeldorado.net/graphics/BishopsList.pdf


Check out the Neilson family....Marilyn has like 20 sister-wives and a little girl named Marva.:(

[Carol25]

I was looking at the Bishops list and so many children under the age of one didn't have a name yet. Just how old do they have to be before they get a name? Calling a baby "Baby Boy" for 6 months seems strange to me...:shrug:

[Roux]

It is so disgusting to me that the "mothers" act like they're so much better than society because they don't let the children have junk food and watch TV. Well big fffing deal! There are plenty of mothers in this country who give their children wholesome food and limit tv, computer, etc. and teach manners and discipline.
The FLDS hold themselves and their lifestyle out to be so sweet and innocent, so healthy and happy, so pious; yet under that facade there is gangrene and evil.

[Roux]

Originally posted by Carol25
I was looking at the Bishops list and so many children under the age of one didn't have a name yet. Just how old do they have to be before they get a name? Calling a baby "Baby Boy" for 6 months seems strange to me...:shrug: [/*]

What got me was the similarity of names when I looked at the list filed with the court at the beginning. Rulon of course being one used the most and taken to an extreme. That alone is a signal to me of their mental sickness. It's one thing to carry on a family name (there's a Jr., III, & IV in my own family) but this worship of a man is so wrong, IMO.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Roux
It is so disgusting to me that the "mothers" act like they're so much better than society because they don't let the children have junk food and watch TV. Well big fffing deal! There are plenty of mothers in this country who give their children wholesome food and limit tv, computer, etc. and teach manners and discipline.
The FLDS hold themselves and their lifestyle out to be so sweet and innocent, so healthy and happy, so pious; yet under that facade there is gangrene and evil. [/*]
I just happen to think WE are the special mothers. We believe seeing children smile and hug as pretty important. What good are healthy bodies without healthy minds? Yep. disgusting.

[xray ra]

I know what you are saying LLaFren, but I have been posting and reading and listening to everything all over this crazy board for a month now. There are some absolutely great minds on here (Walton, grammybear, details, to name just a few) and some who have an alternative agenda.
They need to get with the program or go. IMO. Put up or whatever.
The TOS states to post links whenever information is available on- line pertaining to a specific subject.
Opinions do matter, BUT, they need do be backed up by FACTS if at all possible.
There might be a chance (less than 5% not 33%) that there are good couples in that community. But, I doubt it.
:no:

[Roux]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


I can just imagine it: 'Now Rebecca, finish your fresh organic veggies and your chores quickly, quickly! You've just hit puberty - we need to get you into your wedding dress and over to the temple to marry Uncle Zeke. He's eager to have celestial relations with you.'

barf [/*]

I was reading some of the FLDS culture guides on the link Walton posted -- from today's Salt Lake paper -- and getting so worked up that I had to stop. Hypocrites and perverters of the truth. The only holy day they celebrate is Joseph Smith's *'day in April; yet they claim to be followers of Christ. I try to be respectful of everyone's religion no matter what it is because I feel so strongly about my own Christian faith, but I just can't fathom believing in Joseph Smith, Rulon Jeffs, and Warren Jeffs as prophets. You know a tree by its fruit.

[Rainkiss]

Those Bishop's Records are all kinds of disturbing... Some thoughts as I'm reading:

Set up with 35 lines, AND a "continue on other side of page if necessary?"

Members of the family with residence listed as "elsewhere?"

16 year olds listed as junior wives...

Some of the records seem to be filled out with a wife, then a list of children, then the next wife, more children, leading me to believe that the children listed under each wife are that wife's children... The number of those children under 18 listed as not in the same place as their mothers is heartbreaking.

I wonder if they can foward these to the states listed on the forms and use 'em to name fathers and start collecting child support.

I wonder what "hiding" means under residence... Hiding from who?

[evalles]

Judge Napolitano is the youngest life-tenured Superior Court Judge in the history of the State of New Jersey.
He works for Fox 4 now as a senior judicial analyst
This is what he has to say about the civil rights violations committed by the state of Texas in this case.

Police Arrest 416 Children Using Tanks & Machine Guns in USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIzwOgQ1_w

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Napolitano is a staunch conservative. Conservatives believe in minimal government involvement in the lives of US citizens, pretty much regardless of what those citizens might be up to.

Given his political leanings, it's no surprise his dainties are in a bunch over the raid in Eldorado. [/*]

Add to that he often misinterprets law. He is on Geraldo frequently and often makes statements he later has to backpedal on.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by evalles
Judge Napolitano is the youngest life-tenured Superior Court Judge in the history of the State of New Jersey.
He works for Fox 4 now as a senior judicial analyst
This is what he has to say about the civil rights violations committed by the state of Texas in this case.

Police Arrest 416 Children Using Tanks & Machine Guns in USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIzwOgQ1_w [/*]

This is a JUDGE? This is a man who's declaring a "verdict" without visiting the area, viewing the evidence, or basing his opinion on nothing much more than what he's seen on the news. And, winding up with, "buy my book" doesn't get him much in the way of credibility for me. He's obviously trying to be inflamatory, not trying to actually discuss the issue, just ranting to rant. Remind me to stay out of New Jersey.

Much more reasonable discussion on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXf5_pKrdNQ)

(I found this on a related link from your video, thanks!) This guy, I have NO idea who he is, dissects the situation rationally, calmly, and reasonably, without resorting to "hot button" words or trying to enflame emotions one way or another.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Those Bishop's Records are all kinds of disturbing... Some thoughts as I'm reading:

Set up with 35 lines, AND a "continue on other side of page if necessary?"

Members of the family with residence listed as "elsewhere?"

16 year olds listed as junior wives...

Some of the records seem to be filled out with a wife, then a list of children, then the next wife, more children, leading me to believe that the children listed under each wife are that wife's children... The number of those children under 18 listed as not in the same place as their mothers is heartbreaking.

I wonder if they can foward these to the states listed on the forms and use 'em to name fathers and start collecting child support.

I wonder what "hiding" means under residence... Hiding from who? [/*]
We really need to have someone who filled one of these out to know for sure, but from what we know I guess we can speculate.

Elsewhere I took to mean in another compound, in hiding or escaped.
In hiding I originally thought meant men who were avoiding authorities, but now hearing about those who have been out of the cult trying to locate siblings, I wonder if some are women who have tried to escape and are under discipline and/or strict security to stop further escapes. JMO

[evalles]

Originally posted by Details
You skipped the subject here.

The abuse is not that the child is living with one father and multiple mothers. The abuse is not that a child is living in a polygamous family. That's not child abuse.

The 1/3rd of couples that have not yet gotten a second wife (hey, every guy has to start somewhere - the usual pattern is some years with the first wife before you earn a second) are no different than the ones with a ton of wives. All of them are in the compound, having children who are pedophile fodder, all of them have are under the complete control of Jeffs and his cronies.

Just because they so far have a monogamous relationship, even if that's all they ever have - that doesn't mean anything about the children being safe, nor that they are not abused.


And - if you're reading in the media, you know that there's a lot more abuses CPS is worried about than just the teenage girls. Broken bones (10% of the kids with broken bones - and those are just the ones found incidentally - no x-rays taken on all of them), documentation of rape of the little boys - just within the compound - and stories from escapees and lost boys describe how all this happens - and how pervasively.

Your monogamous couple is not innocent by virtue of their marriage having only two people in it. Not by a long shot. [/*]

I haven't seen the documentation of rape of the little boys, I heard the accusations, but the last thing I read was that CPS said the allegations weren't against any adults at the ranch.

Do you have a link ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


This is a JUDGE? This is a man who's declaring a "verdict" without visiting the area, viewing the evidence, or basing his opinion on nothing much more than what he's seen on the news. And, winding up with, "buy my book" doesn't get him much in the way of credibility for me. He's obviously trying to be inflamatory, not trying to actually discuss the issue, just ranting to rant. Remind me to stay out of New Jersey.

Much more reasonable discussion on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXf5_pKrdNQ)

(I found this on a related link from your video, thanks!) This guy, I have NO idea who he is, dissects the situation rationally, calmly, and reasonably, without resorting to "hot button" words or trying to enflame emotions one way or another. [/*]

He still knows the law.
As far as I know, no one here has visited the ranch or viewed the evidence and all the information obtained is from the media.
That hasn't stopped anybody from ranting or making inflamatory comments.

[evalles]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Add to that he often misinterprets law. He is on Geraldo frequently and often makes statements he later has to backpedal on. [/*]

[xray ra]

Originally posted by evalles
Judge Napolitano is the youngest life-tenured Superior Court Judge in the history of the State of New Jersey.
He works for Fox 4 now as a senior judicial analyst
This is what he has to say about the civil rights violations committed by the state of Texas in this case.

Police Arrest 416 Children Using Tanks & Machine Guns in USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIzwOgQ1_w [/*]

Not the link I have been waiting for.
I am waiting for a FACTUAL link that 1/3 of the ranch residents have monogamous relationships as you stated this morning.:cool:

[evalles]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Napolitano is a staunch conservative. Conservatives believe in minimal government involvement in the lives of US citizens, pretty much regardless of what those citizens might be up to.

Given his political leanings, it's no surprise his dainties are in a bunch over the raid in Eldorado. [/*]

No wonder I liked him, I'm a conservative and believe in minimal government interference also.
It used to be a government of the people,for the people and by the people. Now it's of the government, for the government and by the government.

[Details]

Originally posted by evalles
I haven't seen the documentation of rape of the little boys, I heard the accusations, but the last thing I read was that CPS said the allegations weren't against any adults at the ranch.

Do you have a link ? [/*]So - you've read the story (why do you ask for a link to what you've already read?), and it's OK because it's not the adults, you think (I have not seen any story to that effect - and I've read every link presented here, as well as everything on ABC and CBS)?

Did you read the rest of the post? Monogamous couples are irrelevant - there's no accusation that living in a polygamous family is the abuse. It's the sex with little kids that is abuse, the broken bones, the grooming, the throwing kids away - that's the abuse. Two or three mommies - that's not abuse, nor has anyone alleged that it is.

[xray ra]

You know Evalles, I was just going back over the last months posts. We started out trying to see each others point of view.. If there were now one shred of evidence that the FDLS had any redeeming social or religious value I would back down.
However........ Given, what we now know I would expect you to do what I would do . Say I was wrong.
Sometimes the government gets it wrong. But not this time.
Sometimes CPS screws up. But not this time.
Sometimes parents are innocent. But not now.


These poor children need your passionate voice.!!! To keep them away from their abusers.
Maybe you are not ready , .... yet. God Help You . :read:

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by evalles


He still knows the law.
As far as I know, no one here has visited the ranch or viewed the evidence and all the information obtained is from the media.
That hasn't stopped anybody from ranting or making inflamatory comments. [/*]

AND

I haven't seen the documentation of rape of the little boys, I heard the accusations, but the last thing I read was that CPS said the allegations weren't against any adults at the ranch.

He may know New Jersey law, but how up is he on Texas law?

It's true, lots of people are ranting, making inflamatory comments, and being VERY busy screaming and pointing fingers at just about everyone BUT the :cuss: pedophiles that have been molesting these young girls, and the equally guilty adults who let it happen.

And, let's face it. If they have hard evidence that the boys were molested, chances are, we'll never see it. We may see the court filings, but the evidence of children being raped will be sealed by the court, as it SHOULD be. These kids are going to have enough to recover from without having their personal tragedies spread over the Internet for them to find for the rest of their lives.

[xray ra]

I still haven't gotten the links I requested. I can only guess that some posters don't really want to look for facts. So sad. I will continue to ask for proof when posters cite percentages and Supreme Court rulings in their posts.: :no:

[xray ra]

Good nite Rain Nite Details nite ggw

[evalles]

Originally posted by xray ra
You know Evalles, I was just going back over the last months posts. We started out trying to see each others point of view.. If there were now one shred of evidence that the FDLS had any redeeming social or religious value I would back down.
However........ Given, what we now know I would expect you to do what I would do . Say I was wrong.
Sometimes the government gets it wrong. But not this time.
Sometimes CPS screws up. But not this time.
Sometimes parents are innocent. But not now.


These poor children need your passionate voice.!!! To keep them away from their abusers.
Maybe you are not ready , .... yet. God Help You . :read: [/*]

Can you say for an absolute fact that every one of these parents beat or sexually abused their kids ?
I have never tolled their virtues or stated that I agreed with their practices.
I'm not even saying that none of the children were abused because I don't know.
I don't believe that there was sufficient evidence to remove every child. That's my opinion.
God has helped me. When things were at their worst, I was angry, I imagined all kinds of ways to retaliate against those I felt had wronged me. Instead, I left it up to God. I decided by retaliating, I'd be just like them.
This might sound strange, but it seemed like God took care of things for me. The man, who had never been to my home, who called the hotline at my daughter's request lost his longtime, good-paying job and had to go to go to work at a fast food restaurant. I hear he's behind on everything and may lose his house. My sister, who thought it was fun to hurt me by getting custody of my daughter was audited by the IRS and they found out about the $15000 she forgot to report when she was given her profit sharing after being fired from her job. Her son was also arrested for child endangerment for driving under the influence of drugs with his 7 month old in the car. At the same time, I felt he was on my side. The month after it started, I had one of the largest pmts in the history of my company and made $9000 in commission for about 15 minutes work. My income went up by about $20,000 that year, my husband got a raise and a new truck and I got the new Murano I wanted. My daughter came back home, my children are beautiful and healthy. My 8 year old son is bilingual, and very outgoing. I got a note from one of the teachers at the before and after school program last week, she said he is very nice and polite. And he can also be very funny.
His class teacher told me he's very popular, but nice to everybody. A disabled boy in the class always chose my son to help him to the nurse's office to take his medication.His previous babysitter said whenever one of the babies cried, he was the only kid she had watched that would stop what he was doing to go push the baby swing or give them a binky. When he didn't know she was watching, she would catch him singing to the baby or kissing her on the forehead. My kids are great, including my headstrong 17 year old.
So, you don't need to worry about myself and God, we're tight.
I'm not going to apologize for my thoughts on this.
It's not fair to say that I don't change my opinion when new facts are presented.
When this happened, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the FLDS. I didn't care how many wives they had.
That opinion has changed.
I don't condone forcing or even coercing a teenager to marry some nasty old man and carry his spawn.

In my younger days, before children, I wasn't above retaliation. I have a half brother that molested 4 out of his seven children. When I found out that his new teenage wife (he was about about 45) was babysitting and that he had repented and was going to church, I thought I was going to hurl.
Sick !#!# ! I looked in the Coles directory, printed a bunch of his pictures from the sex offender registry and mailed them to his neighbors. I went to his church and put them under a few windshields before I got scared and left.
Oh, how I wanted to spray paint child molester on his brand new camaro. (didn't)
I consider it a compliment that he thinks I'm a little *#!#!
You can judge a person's character by the calliber of their enemies.
Again, I don't support child abuse, I'm fine with God and I don't agree that all these children were abused or that all the parents are abusers. If I learn differntly, I'll say I was wrong.

[evalles]

Originally posted by xray ra
I still haven't gotten the links I requested. I can only guess that some posters don't really want to look for facts. So sad. I will continue to ask for proof when posters cite percentages and Supreme Court rulings in their posts.: :no: [/*]

I'm using my new laptop today, not my home PC where I have everything. I have so much crap bookmarked that it'll take me half an hour to find it. Since it's a newspaper article and I think the source was a legal aid attorney for the parents, you're not going to accept it as fact anyway, so I'd be wasting my time.
I will post it when I find it. I have 3 kids, a full-time job, a dog and a husband (who's been complaining about all my time on the internet, which is why he's listed under the dog right now in priorities). A separate article mentioned the supreme court ruling, so I have to find the article, then find the case.

I did post the Texas statute on immediate risk.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


AND



He may know New Jersey law, but how up is he on Texas law?

It's true, lots of people are ranting, making inflamatory comments, and being VERY busy screaming and pointing fingers at just about everyone BUT the :cuss: pedophiles that have been molesting these young girls, and the equally guilty adults who let it happen.

And, let's face it. If they have hard evidence that the boys were molested, chances are, we'll never see it. We may see the court filings, but the evidence of children being raped will be sealed by the court, as it SHOULD be. These kids are going to have enough to recover from without having their personal tragedies spread over the Internet for them to find for the rest of their lives. [/*]

He knows constitutional law and legal procedure.
If they had found evidence, they could report it without giving the names.
I can't believe something without some kind of evidence to back it up.

[evalles]

Here's a link to the petition filed by Legal Aid on behalf of the parents.

http://3033920633817195966-a-trla-org-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/trla.org/eldorado-media-updates/legal-documents/Amended_Mandamus.pdf?attredirects=0

Legal Aid also has a site with updates on the case and filings.

http://sites.google.com/a/trla.org/eldorado-media-updates/Home

[evalles]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Maybe you and the judge should put your heads together, then, and decide how many FLDS children - present and future - you're willing to sacrifice in favor of leaving the FLDS parents to conduct business as usual behind the big old walls of their compound.

If my mother thought it was a good idea to walk me across the street at 14, 15 or 16 to bed down for eternity with some much older man, who also incidentally was married and a relative, I'd hope to he!! the government intervened. That, IMO, would be a government of the people, by the people and for the people ... especially the most vulnerable people. [/*]

No, that's illegal. I'd be fine with every one of the men guilty of these actions being executed.
Can you not see that I don't condone this behavior ?
I still want the law to be followed and their constitutional rights protected because that's what made this country.
It's not right to say that because their bad, the government has a right to ignore laws and statutes and the right to due process.
I'd rather a guilty man go free than an innocent one imprisoned.

[evalles]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Ahhhh. I get it now. It's all about retaliation and vengeance. It's all about, 'I'll show THEM.' Whether it's you or God (according to you), it's all about those who done you wrong getting their comeuppance.

It's also apparently about commissions, raises, new vehicles, and having your self-worth dictated by the comments of others about your children.

Ultimately ... it's all about Y-O-U. I definitely get it now. It's just a bit more twisted than I suspected. [/*]

You obviously didn't read the entire post. It said, I felt like retaliating and I didn't. When I was younger I didn't always think first before acting and I didn't know God.While this was happening it seemed like the world was against me, I have no idea if it was God or just Karma. It just seemed that when things were at their worst, as long as I did what I knew was right, I was rewarded in some way. At the same time, it seemed like the people that I know were doing the wrong things paid for it. My self -worth isn't dictated by other's comments about my children.
The comments by the teacher's just reaffirmed that my children are learning what I'm trying to teach them, which is compassion for others, and generosity and honesty. Their comments just let me know that I'm doing my job, which is to prepare them for the day they leave me.
I'm no longer angry at any individual in particular, I think the child welfare system is in need of reform and I should quit wasting my time and figure out what I can do about it. It's not all about the parents, even children that need to be removed hurt when they're taken away. It's devestating when a child that can be left with their parents are placed in completely unfamiliar surroundings.
As far as the money and new car, we were poor for a long time, before I went to work. I was blessed to find a job that pays as well as mine does at times. I'm 37 years old and I've never had a new car. I also worried after buying the house that we wouldn't be able to make ends meet.
My financial situation changed enough in a year to allow me to get my first new car and have all my bills paid. To me, this seemed like a reward or good Karma.
You're post was just mean.
As far as my half brother, I wouldn't have done what I did if I hadn't learned his new wife was watching small children in their home. That was the only reason.
He destroyed so many lives. And guess what, he didn't serve any time. So much for justice.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
I'm sure the fact that you are willing to sacrifice the FLDS children to the whims of their parents and their prophet in order to grind your own personal ax against CPS would seem mean to all the children who have been saved from horrors in their own homes by authorities who put THEM first.

It's not my fault your self-absorption and thirst for vengeance against those you feel have wronged you colors every entirely unrelated circumstance you encounter, evalles. Fortunately, there are enough people in the world who CAN put their own interests aside long enough to understand that it is the CHILDREN of that FLDS compound, and not their parents, who are the priority. [/*]
ITA!

[FoxySly]

Originally posted by xray ra
31 Pregnant teenagers at ONE address!! [/*]

~Snip

That's it! Short, true and IMO very sad!


evalles,
I don't know for sure what has made you so very bitter and sad but what ever it is I am truly sorry.

I think you mentioned that your own Children were taken from you, if so did you get them back? Are they alright?

During the time of raising my Son and Brother I had CPS called on me twice.

Once by a (and only) house mate. We were so poor and always had to live in very bad neighborhoods.
I knew a nurse who was looking to move and suggested that I could find a nicer place and she would rent a room to help out.

This turned into a nightmare. Besides her being a very dirty person (her room actually smelt) I caught her having sex in the living room with someone she did not know, she picked him up at a bar that night and brought him there and was having sex in a room where my 9 year old (at the time) could have walked into on his way to the bathroom. Or worse the guy could have been a killer.

She had signed a renting agreement with me promising about the safety of not only my Child but our 'home'. I could not believe she would have ever done such a thing. She knew well about the importance I placed on my Son, Brother & home.

With the sheriffs there I not only kicked her out but had all her ugg trash moved to the curb by Sun up. She was also, I might add, 6 weeks late on her rent.

The nightmare continued when she called up the electric, power, gas & phone companies saying she was me and had everything turned off. I had to pay both the turn off & reconnecting fees which put another major burden on us (ever since then I have had a stipulation of having a code for this).

Then she called CPS on me with many ugly lies. I later found out she knew about doing this because her own two Daughters had been taken away from her. Very lucky girls IMO.

I was horrified and scared. Everyone that has ever known me knew my Son was my world. But after their investigation I actually got a lot of praise on what a wonderful Mother I was. CPS told me that they had never witnessed a parent doing what I was doing in such circumstances.

The 2nd time was from a guy I dated whom I had told the above story to. He was very bitter when I told him I didn't want him around anymore, no drunks allowed in my Child's life.
Knowing how much it hurt me before, knowing how much I loved my Son... again, the ultimate hurt of using my Child, he called CPS.

But this time I was not scared, I knew CPS had to (& rightly so) check on all calls.
Again, one visit was all it took to show to CPS that an evil person could do such a hurtful thing out of spite.

CPS is not perfect. I have read many horror stories. But it was right with me both times in two different states. The first one happened in Utah, the 2nd in Texas.

Sly

[FoxySly]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Ahhhh. I get it now. It's all about retaliation and vengeance. It's all about, 'I'll show THEM.' Whether it's you or God (according to you), it's all about those who done you wrong getting their comeuppance.

It's also apparently about commissions, raises, new vehicles, and having your self-worth dictated by the comments of others about your children.

Ultimately ... it's all about Y-O-U. I definitely get it now. It's just a bit more twisted than I suspected. [/*]

Oops, I just seen and got it too after my long last post.
Still I feel sorry for her and her Children. IMO what a very sad, spiteful, unhappy life that does indeed rub off on the Children.
With all that spiteful anger and where material things are the ultimate goodies... what a sad, sad home.

Sly

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by evalles
Here's a link to the petition filed by Legal Aid on behalf of the parents.

http://3033920633817195966-a-trla-org-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/trla.org/eldorado-media-updates/legal-documents/Amended_Mandamus.pdf?attredirects=0

Legal Aid also has a site with updates on the case and filings.

http://sites.google.com/a/trla.org/eldorado-media-updates/Home [/*]

Neither of these links seems to work... The first just wants to download something to my machine, the other has a couple of very brief snips of information, but the links to all of the legal documents don't work.

[evalles]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
I'm sure the fact that you are willing to sacrifice the FLDS children to the whims of their parents and their prophet in order to grind your own personal ax against CPS would seem mean to all the children who have been saved from horrors in their own homes by authorities who put THEM first.

It's not my fault your self-absorption and thirst for vengeance against those you feel have wronged you colors every entirely unrelated circumstance you encounter, evalles. Fortunately, there are enough people in the world who CAN put their own interests aside long enough to understand that it is the CHILDREN of that FLDS compound, and not their parents, who are the priority. [/*]

I don't have a thirst for vengeance,only for justice. Any of the kids that haven't been abused are paying for this class action also.
If it makes you feel better to pretend you know my motives for anything, knock yourself out. FYI, based on other blogs, I'm not alone in my beliefs.

i]mean[/i] to all the children who have been saved from horrors in their own homes by authorities who put THEM first.

And to all that have been protected to death by the child savers.


:rose:

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


Neither of these links seems to work... The first just wants to download something to my machine, the other has a couple of very brief snips of information, but the links to all of the legal documents don't work. [/*]

I couldn't either when I tried from the Legal updates section.
You have to go to the documents and the petition is in PDF.

[evalles]

Originally posted by FoxySly


Oops, I just seen and got it too after my long last post.
Still I feel sorry for her and her Children. IMO what a very sad, spiteful, unhappy life that does indeed rub off on the Children.
With all that spiteful anger and where material things are the ultimate goodies... what a sad, sad home.

Sly [/*]

You are hillarious, you make a lot of presumptions without any facts. How you determined that my home is unhappy,I'll never know. Who said you have to be poor to be happy ? I've been there and not knowing if you can pay your light bill doesn't make you happy.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Ahhhh. I get it now. It's all about retaliation and vengeance. It's all about, 'I'll show THEM.' Whether it's you or God (according to you), it's all about those who done you wrong getting their comeuppance.

It's also apparently about commissions, raises, new vehicles, and having your self-worth dictated by the comments of others about your children.

Ultimately ... it's all about Y-O-U. I definitely get it now. It's just a bit more twisted than I suspected. [/*]

ITA We've finally got to the REAL story. I'm done <click> hehe
:lol:

[xray ra]

Originally posted by FoxySly


Oops, I just seen and got it too after my long last post.
Still I feel sorry for her and her Children. IMO what a very sad, spiteful, unhappy life that does indeed rub off on the Children.
With all that spiteful anger and where material things are the ultimate goodies... what a sad, sad home.

Sly [/*]

Foxy, What a truly awful time you had in the past. I'm so glad everything worked out for you. I do know that if Mom's really care about their kids the authorities will KNOW it. and do the right thing.
:)

[xray ra]

Morning all:seeya:

And today IGGY is my friend!!!!!!;)

[lotty]

Originally posted by xray ra
Morning all:seeya:

And today IGGY is my friend!!!!!!;) [/*]

IGGY was my friend quite a few weeks ago!:D

[evalles]

There are some posters that remind me of the mean girls in junior high. They make rude comments but can't stand it when anyone calls them on it.

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by lotty


IGGY was my friend quite a few weeks ago!:D [/*]

Mine to, keeps my blood pressure down!:cool:

[xray ra]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Looks like I struck a nerve. Have never done the iggy thing before, but there's a first time for everything ... <click>

:seeya: [/*]

Not for you GGW . I luv your posts. You crazy girl!!!:cool:

[lotty]

Originally posted by xray ra


Not for you GGW . I luv your posts. You crazy girl!!!:cool: [/*]

ITA! :beer:

[xray ra]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


:cool: [/*]

I was just looking at the "bishop's list" AGAIN. I know. It's sick.

But I think that a GAL should be appointed to all of the children on the list even if they don't know where those children are right now.
I was looking at one family that had 10 female children and only 3 male children.
What the HHHHHH!!!!............. Maybe,..... it could happen.
If I had the financial ability and the freedom to move around I would go to Texas and take the case of just one child on that list.
Just one.
:(
'
'
'

[Carol25]

Originally posted by xray ra


I was just looking at the "bishop's list" AGAIN. I know. It's sick.

But I think that a GAL should be appointed to all of the children on the list even if they don't know where those children are right now.
I was looking at one family that had 10 female children and only 3 male children.
What the HHHHHH!!!!............. Maybe,..... it could happen.
If I had the financial ability and the freedom to move around I would go to Texas and take the case of just one child on that list.
Just one.
:(
'
'
' [/*]
I hear you, Lotty. :(

[Details]

Originally posted by xray ra
Foxy, What a truly awful time you had in the past. I'm so glad everything worked out for you. I do know that if Mom's really care about their kids the authorities will KNOW it. and do the right thing.
:) [/*]A parent trying to hide something raises every red flag CPS has, one open, understanding that all allegations must be reviewed, and with nothing to hide shows through every time. That's why Foxy had no issues, why another poster with a child with a supposed skull fracture had no trouble.

Sometimes there are bad CPS - but as a parent, I fully understand that in order for CPS to investigate and help the abused children, they have to look into any allegation. They do a good job, nearly every time. Of course we get all over them for any failing, since the stakes are so high - but still - they do do a great job. So many children who would be dead, neglected, or abused their entire childhood now survive, so many parents who needed just a little poke and some help get it, so many children who have horrible parents are saved from them to foster homes.

[Vinnie]

Evalles, you accuse the state and the CPS of not having just cause/evidence to remove the children of this cult. I think they had a mountain of evidence and testimony.

How many Lost Boys, how many 14-year-old mothers, how many "escapee" wives does it take to wake up law enforcement? How many watchtowers with sentries and infrared night-vision cameras and 10-foot high walls topped with spikes does it take to raise suspicions? How many children and wives taken from one man and given to another? How many women and children on the public dole? How many unregistered births and deaths?

And now - how many broken bones and sexually molested children? How many 12-year-old children removed from school so they can work - for free - in CONSTRUCTION jobs???

The children ALL HAD to be removed in order to straighten things out.

But you know all these things, too. This case isn't like your case or any other individual case involving CPS. It is way beyond Texas and CPS. It involves a massive totalitarian slave state, operating right here in the USA.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by Carol25

I hear you, Lotty. :( [/*]

I wonder what ever happened to little Jace Merril Allred age 3?
Father: Edmund Lorin Allred age 49 Mother Dora Mae Steed Allred age 43

Edmund has 8 "wives" and at least 36 children!! How does he support them. He needs to be brought into local LE and asked some simple questions.

Just sayin!!!
:cuss:

[lotty]

Originally posted by Vinnie
Evalles, you accuse the state and the CPS of not having just cause/evidence to remove the children of this cult. I think they had a mountain of evidence and testimony.

How many Lost Boys, how many 14-year-old mothers, how many "escapee" wives does it take to wake up law enforcement? How many watchtowers with sentries and infrared night-vision cameras and 10-foot high walls topped with spikes does it take to raise suspicions? How many children and wives taken from one man and given to another? How many women and children on the public dole? How many unregistered births and deaths?

And now - how many broken bones and sexually molested children? How many 12-year-old children removed from school so they can work - for free - in CONSTRUCTION jobs???

The children ALL HAD to be removed in order to straighten things out.

But you know all these things, too. This case isn't like your case or any other individual case involving CPS. It is way beyond Texas and CPS. It involves a massive totalitarian slave state, operating right here in the USA. [/*]
It still floors me everytime I read about it, here in this country. I guess they should be denied their civil liberties every way they turn. Their religion allows them no freedom, I couldn't stand it if OUR Governments, local, state and federal were to let them down as so many have been in the past. HOPE!

[lotty]

Originally posted by xray ra


I wonder what ever happened to little Jace Merril Allred age 3?
Father: Edmund Lorin Allred age 49 Mother Dora Mae Steed Allred age 43

Edmund has 8 "wives" and at least 36 children!! How does he support them. He needs to be brought into local LE and asked some simple questions.

Just sayin!!!
:cuss: [/*]

Here goes...Patricia Keate visited Warren Jeffs in jail the day before the raid, signed the letter of concerned mothers to the Gov. of Texas...in the Bishops List I find only one person listed with that name (Thank you Walton), that person would be TWO YEARS OLD. Can anyone explain this to me? I'm at a loss!hammer

[xray ra]

Originally posted by Vinnie
Evalles, you accuse the state and the CPS of not having just cause/evidence to remove the children of this cult. I think they had a mountain of evidence and testimony.

How many Lost Boys, how many 14-year-old mothers, how many "escapee" wives does it take to wake up law enforcement? How many watchtowers with sentries and infrared night-vision cameras and 10-foot high walls topped with spikes does it take to raise suspicions? How many children and wives taken from one man and given to another? How many women and children on the public dole? How many unregistered births and deaths?

And now - how many broken bones and sexually molested children? How many 12-year-old children removed from school so they can work - for free - in CONSTRUCTION jobs???

The children ALL HAD to be removed in order to straighten things out.

But you know all these things, too. This case isn't like your case or any other individual case involving CPS. It is way beyond Texas and CPS. It involves a massive totalitarian slave state, operating right here in the USA. [/*]

Right On!! (holding bic lighter aloft)!!!!:beer:

[xray ra]

Originally posted by lotty


Here goes...Patricia Keate visited Warren Jeffs in jail the day before the raid, signed the letter of concerned mothers to the Gov. of Texas...in the Bishops List I find only one person listed with that name (Thank you Walton), that person would be TWO YEARS OLD. Can anyone explain this to me? I'm at a loss!hammer [/*]

I think that this case is overwhelming, even for the Great State of Texas!! Bring in the Feds. (And I usually never agree to that BTW)
So many documents, so much DNA, fingerprints, interstate transprortation of children, welfare, food stamps, IRS, government contracts, unregulated cemetaries, and on and on .....

There are Senate Inquiries into DRUGS IN BASEBALL!!! FGS
Now is the time for Judicial inquiries into criminal activity of the FDLS!!!

Didn't our president call a special session of congress to decide the fate of ONE young women tragically affected by an aneurysm?
How crazy was that?

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by lotty


Here goes...Patricia Keate visited Warren Jeffs in jail the day before the raid, signed the letter of concerned mothers to the Gov. of Texas...in the Bishops List I find only one person listed with that name (Thank you Walton), that person would be TWO YEARS OLD. Can anyone explain this to me? I'm at a loss!hammer [/*]

Remember, the lists are a little old, and people move in and out of the Ranch a LOT, it seems. There are a lot more children than are on those lists. And, names seem to repeat a lot in the sect. Could be she's an import from Utah or some such, come in since the lists were written, or on a part of the lists not released.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by evalles


Can you say for an absolute fact that every one of these parents beat or sexually abused their kids ?
I have never tolled their virtues or stated that I agreed with their practices.
I'm not even saying that none of the children were abused because I don't know.
I don't believe that there was sufficient evidence to remove every child. That's my opinion.[/*]


Isn't the point that they are mostly all (or all) complicit and there is no way to know who would be safe (as well as who should be charged) given the extent of it all. You are disavowing the context of this over-and-over. These people live in a cult, a group where most (or all) do what they are told and no one tells. This has little relation to one personal story. I'm sure there are many stories within this one big story also and the whole is also greater than the sum of the parts. There must be another thread that is more relevant to your posts than this one.

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles
Judge Napolitano is the youngest life-tenured Superior Court Judge in the history of the State of New Jersey.
He works for Fox 4 now as a senior judicial analyst
This is what he has to say about the civil rights violations committed by the state of Texas in this case.

Police Arrest 416 Children Using Tanks & Machine Guns in USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIzwOgQ1_w [/*]

Oh my heck. This explains part of the problem evalles.



You are watching shows that feed the fury.

Put some of that energy to good use and help us help the kids.

Maybe some of the frustration you feel is because you feel helpless. Help us help them will ya?

[lotty]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


Remember, the lists are a little old, and people move in and out of the Ranch a LOT, it seems. There are a lot more children than are on those lists. And, names seem to repeat a lot in the sect. Could be she's an import from Utah or some such, come in since the lists were written, or on a part of the lists not released. [/*]

I hear you, the lists are 1 year to 6 months old, but Keate is not a large family. I'm thinking better genetics. I still think, they are full of it...I don't think anyone can believe much of what they say. I do appreciate your observation though, keep my brain working.:D

[evalles]

Originally posted by walton


Oh my heck. This explains part of the problem evalles.



You are watching shows that feed the fury.

Put some of that energy to good use and help us help the kids.

Maybe some of the frustration you feel is because you feel helpless. Help us help them will ya? [/*]

How ?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Details
So - you've read the story (why do you ask for a link to what you've already read?), and it's OK because it's not the adults, you think (I have not seen any story to that effect - and I've read every link presented here, as well as everything on ABC and CBS)?

Did you read the rest of the post? Monogamous couples are irrelevant - there's no accusation that living in a polygamous family is the abuse. It's the sex with little kids that is abuse, the broken bones, the grooming, the throwing kids away - that's the abuse. Two or three mommies - that's not abuse, nor has anyone alleged that it is. [/*]

I thought maybe you'd found something with more specifics and more factual than media reports.

FLDS adults not suspected of abusing boys
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5747898.html

[xray ra]

Originally posted by evalles
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tirante



"..To compare, you have to look at both."

Good idea. Why do you not try it? [/*][/QUOTE

I have, I think the FLDS practice of polygamy and marrying off young girls to old men is deplorable.
I'm sure there are some innocent parents involved, and I don't agree with making them all suffer for the crimes of the guilty.
1/3 of the the couples were monagamous and their children were also taken.
I think the state was wrong to take all the children and I think CPS and the family court have way too much power. [/*]

I am still waiting for the LINK that 1/3 of the couples were monogamous.

Bring it.

[Details]

Originally posted by evalles
I thought maybe you'd found something with more specifics and more factual than media reports.

FLDS adults not suspected of abusing boys
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5747898.html [/*]Better than media reports? I should digitize one of the kids and upload them? Just like your link, media reports are what everyone hears. And they're mostly reliable, so long as you read and pay attention to what is said and not said, who the source is. LE does not have their own media channel, nor does CPS - not that you've tended to believe either of those. FLDS will talk - but obviously they've got their own purpose for that.

Thanks for the link - a good clarification. And it also shows that nursing mothers are being kept with their infants - even if not underage.

[Details]

Originally posted by Vinnie
Evalles, you accuse the state and the CPS of not having just cause/evidence to remove the children of this cult. I think they had a mountain of evidence and testimony.

How many Lost Boys, how many 14-year-old mothers, how many "escapee" wives does it take to wake up law enforcement? How many watchtowers with sentries and infrared night-vision cameras and 10-foot high walls topped with spikes does it take to raise suspicions? How many children and wives taken from one man and given to another? How many women and children on the public dole? How many unregistered births and deaths?

And now - how many broken bones and sexually molested children? How many 12-year-old children removed from school so they can work - for free - in CONSTRUCTION jobs???

The children ALL HAD to be removed in order to straighten things out.

But you know all these things, too. This case isn't like your case or any other individual case involving CPS. It is way beyond Texas and CPS. It involves a massive totalitarian slave state, operating right here in the USA. [/*]Beautifully stated.

This isn't some rogue CPS agent, twirling a moustache and stealling children - this is a real and huge problem with a mountain of evidence behind it.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by evalles


I thought maybe you'd found something with more specifics and more factual than media reports.

FLDS adults not suspected of abusing boys
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5747898.html [/*]

Oh Wow!!
A LINK that says the children were abused by other children in the same compound!!
I wonder where they learned that behavior from? Hmmmm??/

1/3?:cool:

[evalles]

Originally posted by FoxySly


~Snip

That's it! Short, true and IMO very sad!


evalles,
I don't know for sure what has made you so very bitter and sad but what ever it is I am truly sorry.

I think you mentioned that your own Children were taken from you, if so did you get them back? Are they alright?

During the time of raising my Son and Brother I had CPS called on me twice.

Once by a (and only) house mate. We were so poor and always had to live in very bad neighborhoods.
I knew a nurse who was looking to move and suggested that I could find a nicer place and she would rent a room to help out.

This turned into a nightmare. Besides her being a very dirty person (her room actually smelt) I caught her having sex in the living room with someone she did not know, she picked him up at a bar that night and brought him there and was having sex in a room where my 9 year old (at the time) could have walked into on his way to the bathroom. Or worse the guy could have been a killer.

She had signed a renting agreement with me promising about the safety of not only my Child but our 'home'. I could not believe she would have ever done such a thing. She knew well about the importance I placed on my Son, Brother & home.

With the sheriffs there I not only kicked her out but had all her ugg trash moved to the curb by Sun up. She was also, I might add, 6 weeks late on her rent.

The nightmare continued when she called up the electric, power, gas & phone companies saying she was me and had everything turned off. I had to pay both the turn off & reconnecting fees which put another major burden on us (ever since then I have had a stipulation of having a code for this).

Then she called CPS on me with many ugly lies. I later found out she knew about doing this because her own two Daughters had been taken away from her. Very lucky girls IMO.

I was horrified and scared. Everyone that has ever known me knew my Son was my world. But after their investigation I actually got a lot of praise on what a wonderful Mother I was. CPS told me that they had never witnessed a parent doing what I was doing in such circumstances.

The 2nd time was from a guy I dated whom I had told the above story to. He was very bitter when I told him I didn't want him around anymore, no drunks allowed in my Child's life.
Knowing how much it hurt me before, knowing how much I loved my Son... again, the ultimate hurt of using my Child, he called CPS.

But this time I was not scared, I knew CPS had to (& rightly so) check on all calls.
Again, one visit was all it took to show to CPS that an evil person could do such a hurtful thing out of spite.

CPS is not perfect. I have read many horror stories. But it was right with me both times in two different states. The first one happened in Utah, the 2nd in Texas.

Sly [/*]
I have three children, CPS was only involved with my 16 year old daughter. My 5 & 6 year old weren't involved at all. They've never been away from me. It's very hard to explain.

In your case, they did exactly what they're supposed to do.
A year ago, I respected and admired all social workers. I thought that if a parent lost custody of a kid, they had to have done something very bad and were most likely the scum of the earth.
We're blind about a lot of things until they happen to us.

In my state, there are two counties that even CPS workers in other counties will tell you are abusive. I live in one.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by xray ra


Oh Wow!!
A LINK that says the children were abused by other children in the same compound!!
I wonder where they learned that behavior from? Hmmmm??/

1/3?:cool: [/*]

Their prophet Warren Jeffs, and probably all their 'UNCLES' who most likely abused these young boys.

Whose word is it stating 1/3 of the compound is monogamous? Why would they profess that since in their religious code they must have a least THREE wives to enter into heaven?

[xray ra]

Originally posted by KatyDid


Their prophet Warren Jeffs, and probably all their 'UNCLES' who most likely abused these young boys.

Whose word is it stating 1/3 of the compound is monogamous? Why would they profess that since in their religious code they must have a least THREE wives to enter into heaven? [/*]

Good point!! Maybe that is where evalles got that "1/3" from!!:read:

[Details]

Originally posted by evalles
...In my state, there are two counties that even CPS workers in other counties will tell you are abusive. I live in one. [/*]And thus, the FLDS children should remain in their abusive homes. Because CPS workers once in awhile make a mistake is a good enough reason to leave children in abusive environments? Let the abuse continue, give the cult an opportunity to vanish and brainwash them, until a full investigation (which, of course, will result in little or nothing without the ability of the children to talk freely), and a jury trial can find the exact guilty? How many more rapes, how much more abuse, how much worse will their lives be for this time - doesn't matter - CPS has on rare occasion made a mistake, so we must ignore them.

No earthly way.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


I don't know where this 'statistic' came from either. If you look at the Bishop's list from last year - taken with a grain of salt, of course - there are a handful of heads of household who list only one wife, and few or no children. But in most if not all of those cases, the 'monogamous' couples are young. From what I surmise from the list, when a man gets into his 30's, he becomes eligible for additional wives.

I'm sure the younger men have to qualify in some way to be allowed to add spiritual wives to their family, and I'm sure it takes a certain amount of years of kissing the prophet's patootie before that entitlement is granted.

Lucky for those 30-something men, though, they have a virtual stable of teenage girls to choose from (or have chosen for them) when their time comes.

For some reason I'm reminded of images I've seen of the lounges in the legalized brothels here in Nevada. The working girls all line up for the male visitors, and the customers make their selection(s).

barf [/*]

That statistic "1/3" came from one of evalles posts of may 5th,
Although, frequently and consistently asked for, no LINK to that statistic has been provided.
I can only assume that the number was pulled from somewhere below the neck!
hammer

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


I don't know where this 'statistic' came from either. If you look at the Bishop's list from last year - taken with a grain of salt, of course - there are a handful of heads of household who list only one wife, and few or no children. But in most if not all of those cases, the 'monogamous' couples are young. From what I surmise from the list, when a man gets into his 30's, he becomes eligible for additional wives.

I'm sure the younger men have to qualify in some way to be allowed to add spiritual wives to their family, and I'm sure it takes a certain amount of years of kissing the prophet's patootie before that entitlement is granted.

Lucky for those 30-something men, though, they have a virtual stable of teenage girls to choose from (or have chosen for them) when their time comes.

For some reason I'm reminded of images I've seen of the lounges in the legalized brothels here in Nevada. The working girls all line up for the male visitors, and the customers make their selection(s).

barf [/*]

Ah, I see, :D we need better statistics like how old the 1/3 monogamous men are.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by xray ra


That statistic "1/3" came from one of evalles posts of may 5th,
Although, frequently and consistently asked for, no LINK to that statistic has been provided.
I can only assume that the number was pulled from somewhere below the neck!
hammer [/*]

the number was pulled from somewhere below the neck!
:lol: ROTFL!!

[evalles]

Originally posted by Details
And thus, the FLDS children should remain in their abusive homes. Because CPS workers once in awhile make a mistake is a good enough reason to leave children in abusive environments? Let the abuse continue, give the cult an opportunity to vanish and brainwash them, until a full investigation (which, of course, will result in little or nothing without the ability of the children to talk freely), and a jury trial can find the exact guilty? How many more rapes, how much more abuse, how much worse will their lives be for this time - doesn't matter - CPS has on rare occasion made a mistake, so we must ignore them.

No earthly way. [/*]

I responded to a post about her personal experiences with CPS. I answered her question regarding my children. From now on, I'll stick to the topic.

[evalles]

Xray ra -

Oh Wow!!
A LINK that says the children were abused by other children in the same compound!!
I wonder where they learned that behavior from? Hmmmm??/
__________________________________________________ __
This is how rumors get started.
The article was dated May 2nd and I haven't heard anything else since.
State: Older boys may have molested younger ones
May have, not did.

According to a state employee who won't give his name;

Documents taken from the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado indicate that younger boys were molested by older boys at the ranch, said the official, who asked not to be identified. No other details about the alleged abuse were available.

Of course there are no other details and the official doesn't want to be indentified. They want people to take this unfounded innuendo and run with it.

This is hardly factual.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by evalles
Xray ra -

Oh Wow!!
A LINK that says the children were abused by other children in the same compound!!
I wonder where they learned that behavior from? Hmmmm??/
__________________________________________________ __
This is how rumors get started.
The article was dated May 2nd and I haven't heard anything else since.
State: Older boys may have molested younger ones
May have, not did.

According to a state employee who won't give his name;

Documents taken from the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado indicate that younger boys were molested by older boys at the ranch, said the official, who asked not to be identified. No other details about the alleged abuse were available.

Of course there are no other details and the official doesn't want to be indentified. They want people to take this unfounded innuendo and run with it.

This is hardly factual. [/*]


You are the one that posted the link. Stating that it "was not the adults that were guilty of abusing the children".
I just clicked on it.
If you don't want it out here, don't post the link.
Still waiting for the "1/3 " and the "Supreme Court" ruling re: imminent danger, (Not State rulings) your post said SUPREME COURT!!
hammer

[evalles]

There's nothing wrong with the link xray ra it's the misinterpretation of it that bothered me. This is a media report. And even the article doesn't say it's confirmed.

It's not evidence,it's information.

Here's another interpretation of the article.

http://iperceive.net/texas-cps-expands-flds-demonization-campaign-reverses-itself-on-abuse-of-boys/

If I find the article that talked about 1/3 of the couples being monogymous I'll post it. I've been enjoying my new laptop and haven't been on my desktop since Saturday. It was only a news article, not factual anyway. Something I read.

[KatyDid]

That is a tax attorney from Atlanta, GA. The website is his personal blog site. He is expressing an opinion on his site just like we are on this site, nothing more.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Details
Better than media reports? I should digitize one of the kids and upload them? Just like your link, media reports are what everyone hears. And they're mostly reliable, so long as you read and pay attention to what is said and not said, who the source is. LE does not have their own media channel, nor does CPS - not that you've tended to believe either of those. FLDS will talk - but obviously they've got their own purpose for that.

Thanks for the link - a good clarification. And it also shows that nursing mothers are being kept with their infants - even if not underage. [/*]

I agree that the media reports are all we have, but unless someone is directly quoted or facts are given in support, I take them all with a grain of salt.
Texas legal aid who's representing the parents has a website with info related to this case, it has the latest petition filed on behalf of the parents. Did you see the link I posted earlier?

The judge had a change of heart and decided to let them stay with the kids under a year old.
IMO, her change of heart had to do with the criticizm she received over her decision to separate them.

[xray ra]

Goodnite Katy, Nite GGW Nite all see ya tomorrow:seeya:

[evalles]

Originally posted by KatyDid
That is a tax attorney from Atlanta, GA. The website is his personal blog site. He is expressing an opinion on his site just like we are on this site, nothing more. [/*]

I know, but he made some good points. I found his opinion interesting.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by xray ra
Goodnite Katy, Nite GGW Nite all see ya tomorrow:seeya: [/*]

:seeya: nite xray!

[walton]

Originally posted by evalles


How ? [/*]

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/04/forgotten-children-of-flds-polygamist.html

One of these boys, named Franky, says, "How a father or a mother can suddenly take a child and kick them out and never speak with them again, that's just unbelievable."

Another of those boys is Gideon Barlow, who says he arrived in this strange world as an orphan from another world, at the age of 16.

At 17, he begged to visit his mother on Mother's Day, to just give her a gift, yet the mother told him that he was "dead" to her.

________

Another "Lost Boy" was John Jessop who was kicked out of the family at the age of 13 years old because he ran away for three day and another is Sam Icke who was kicked out of his home for kissing a girl.
_______________

These boys still loved their mothers, even after having their mothers shun them and refuse to consider them alive, throwing them away as if they were garbage, out into the world that they had first taught these children to fear.

More of these former FLDS children have come forward recently, since the Child Protective Services took 416 children from the FLDS compound and they too find very little pity for the mothers that are crying for the cameras.



What child deserves this?

I've looked for these kids moms names listed on the Bishops list but could not find them. Maybe the names have changed. Warren has been in jail for sometime now. These mothers still want nothing to do with these boys and girls.

Some of Johnny's brothers and sisters might very well have been at the compound. Can't tell me they aren't affected by a brother being tossed to the wind. In my mind that is a form of abuse that wouldn't leave a black and blue mark on the surface but one deep inside.

Mothers Day is fast approaching and these kids are still without a mom. CPS never came in to take them away by the 100's. They were tossed out one at a time. By their own parents.

Please help. From your new laptop send letters to every Senator that you can. Not just the state that this is happening in but all the states.

Send a note to Dr. Fischer and tell him thanks.

Send a note to all the Lost Boys and Girls and tell them that you are thinking of them.

If you need other links to these stories.... I will provide them.
Thanks evalles

[juliekan]

I've been checking the newspapers in the towns where the children were sent...not seeing any stories about the kids. Then realized I was HAPPY not to see any stories. Glad that the media or the homes are not "parading" them around.:)

[juliekan]

Texas ACLU will continue to monitor the FLDS case.
This article delineates the ACLU stance as of May 2.

www.aclutx.org/article.php?aid=570

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by juliekan
Texas ACLU will continue to monitor the FLDS case.
This article delineates the ACLU stance as of May 2.

www.aclutx.org/article.php?aid=570 [/*]

Reading that article :confused:

ACLU says the children have a right to be protected, but the parents have a right to religious freedom and raise their children in the faith of their choice.

ACLU is hanging their hat on the call placed by Rozita Swinton in Colorado Springs as being a false premise for LE to get the warrant.

ACLU does not address the already upheld decision for LE to get the second warrant based on observations made exercising the first warrant.

Just a lot of dancing around the REAL issues by ACLU, IMO. They are choosing not to address all the issues about this case. I hope TX AG is taking good notes.

I would also like to hear ACLU defend all the obvious lies told by these parents and the switching of name bracelets, etc.

[Details]

The ACLU should be thinking of the civil rights of the children, violated by their parents and Jeffs.

[juliekan]

I find it an interesting, and a good thing that they are only "monitoring" the situation. They can be so crazy and jump in on anything...which must mean Texas is doing something right so far.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Texanne
Oh sure, I should have know the ACLU would be looking for the publicity. I would not give the ACLU all the hot haywire they could eat (old Texas saying). GAG! [/*]

:D I sure am enjoying posting with all you Texans. I was born and raised in Texas. Have been in Colorado for the last 10 years.

:seeya: sorry for the o/t

[xray ra]

Originally posted by juliekan
Texas ACLU will continue to monitor the FLDS case.
This article delineates the ACLU stance as of May 2.

www.aclutx.org/article.php?aid=570 [/*]

Great link, Juliekan: Thanks.

As I posted on another thread, the ACLU was called in to protect the "mothers" rights, not the children's rights

As to why "all" the children were required to give DNA when there was not proof that "all" the children were in danger:

IMO: If the Great State of Texas had stopped to identify the (maybe) 1% of children : 46 out of 463, that would have only delayed the ineveitable. That these children need to be identified maternaly and paternaly.
But that is what the ACLU does. Make a mountain out of a molehill. If you don't have anything to hide, then why protest?

I believe in justice for all, but come on.


:punch:

[Rainkiss]

Quite simply, CPS and LE have been lied to, by the children, and the parents. There have been deliberate, blatant attempts to confuse both definate paternity and maternity for many of the children. The fact is, handing over a child to an adult when you can't confirm that the adult is the parent of that child is not only downright irresponsible, but likely criminal.

Heck, I wouldn't put it past some of these men to claim their underage victims as their own children in order to bring them home.

[Mitzy2]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Quite simply, CPS and LE have been lied to, by the children, and the parents. There have been deliberate, blatant attempts to confuse both definate paternity and maternity for many of the children. The fact is, handing over a child to an adult when you can't confirm that the adult is the parent of that child is not only downright irresponsible, but likely criminal.

Heck, I wouldn't put it past some of these men to claim their underage victims as their own children in order to bring them home. [/*] Exactly, all of the children must be biologically identified before any considerations of returning them to their Mothers/ Fathers, can even be discussed by the ACLU, The FLDS Attorney's, etc., etc. , due to the FLDS Members deception and lies concerning parentage which they brought on themselves, One cannot defend the indefensable. If they want their kids back as they claim, then "pony" up the DNA. I know I'd be the first in line. JMO

[lotty]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
Not that anything at all about this situation is amusing ... BUT

... I find the fact that the FLDS'ers (the adults, I mean) - who apparently think all they need to do is lie to all of us out here in order to keep on doing what they do - have increased the pain and complexity of their situation exponentially with all their bleepin lying to the authorities.

They apparently thought they'd be quite clever initially by shuffling kids around, switching clothes, destroying ID bracelets, etc. Now we hear complaining that they don't even know where their children are sheltered.

Anyhoo, I'm getting some sort of evil enjoyment out of having all that lying come back to bite them in their bums.

Shame on me. :punch: [/*]

Don't be so hard on yourself LOL...shame on them, how much sympathy should we have for self-inflicted wounds?;)

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz
Not that anything at all about this situation is amusing ... BUT

... I find the fact that the FLDS'ers (the adults, I mean) - who apparently think all they need to do is lie to all of us out here in order to keep on doing what they do - have increased the pain and complexity of their situation exponentially with all their bleepin lying to the authorities.

They apparently thought they'd be quite clever initially by shuffling kids around, switching clothes, destroying ID bracelets, etc. Now we hear complaining that they don't even know where their children are sheltered.

Anyhoo, I'm getting some sort of evil enjoyment out of having all that lying come back to bite them in their bums.

Shame on me. :punch: [/*]

Blame it on Utah. That is the state that has allowed this lying to go on for decades. They have given these liars cartblanche to get whatever they want through their lies with no consequences.

If this had been Utah investigating the call, they would have thrown their hands in the air and said it was too complicated to do anything about.

ITA GGW!!! I am so glad to see these women and men getting caught in the lies they have become so comfortable telling Utah all these decades.

It's their big OOPS in this whole thing. Shame on them and Utah :punch:

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Texanne
Nobody keeps better geneology records than the mormons. The mormon records are used by many people who are trying to trace their family trees. It is a mormon thing. There is NO WAY that there are no complete, detailed birth and death records for eveyone in that compound. They should be forced to produce them. How about the dumazzes at ACLU go to bat for the children and demand the records for the children be released on the grounds that every child deserves to know who their parents are. [/*]

Good argument, why not e-mail them with this angle? Since they are still "monitoring" the situation, I think they haven't decided which way to go with all this.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Texanne
Nobody keeps better geneology records than the mormons. The mormon records are used by many people who are trying to trace their family trees. It is a mormon thing. There is NO WAY that there are no complete, detailed birth and death records for eveyone in that compound. They should be forced to produce them. How about the dumazzes at ACLU go to bat for the children and demand the records for the children be released on the grounds that every child deserves to know who their parents are. [/*]

:D :beer:

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by Texanne
Nobody keeps better geneology records than the mormons. The mormon records are used by many people who are trying to trace their family trees. It is a mormon thing. There is NO WAY that there are no complete, detailed birth and death records for eveyone in that compound. They should be forced to produce them. How about the dumazzes at ACLU go to bat for the children and demand the records for the children be released on the grounds that every child deserves to know who their parents are. [/*]

They'll never release them. If they consented to release any of the records at all, a judge would demand they release them all... including the ones that prove that older men have been molesting and impregnating young girls. Never happen, they'll just claim those records don't exist.

I'm wondering about the "Bishop's" record... Does the Mormon church have an office called "Bishop?" Anybody know?

[juliekan]

www.star-telegram.com/804/story/631299.html

Next Hearings Set for Children-to begin May 19th and to occur simultaneously in 5 courtrooms. Hearings will be grouped by family groups. The hearings are likely to be focused on setting up service plans for the parents. Also states that the mothers are traveling to see their children.

And I wonder how anyone knows which family group goes together? And what "mother" is showing up to visit these kids?

[lotty]

Originally posted by juliekan
www.star-telegram.com/804/story/631299.html

Next Hearings Set for Children-to begin May 19th and to occur simultaneously in 5 courtrooms. Hearings will be grouped by family groups. The hearings are likely to be focused on setting up service plans for the parents. Also states that the mothers are traveling to see their children.

And I wonder how anyone knows which family group goes together? And what "mother" is showing up to visit these kids? [/*]

:confused:

Do you think that is why they moved WJ's hearing? It was supposed to be May 19th as well. Do you think they got a sample of his DNA, since some of his children were supposed to be at YFZ?

[juliekan]

Originally posted by lotty


:confused:

Do you think that is why they moved WJ's hearing? It was supposed to be May 19th as well. Do you think they got a sample of his DNA, since some of his children were supposed to be at YFZ? [/*]

It would make sense. I wonder if his DNA has already been taken since he has been held.
www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/us08raid.html?ref=us
A family in Colorado City was looking over the bishop's list and putting families together that they knew. Mr. Nielsen,a high ranking sect official who they knew had family in Arizona, was shown to also have 21 wives and 35 children at YFZ.

There's DNA floating around everywhere out there!

crap link didn't work...that keeps happening to me today...can find the article at rickross.com

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by GollyGeeWhiz


Yeppers.

Mormon Bishops (http://www.mormonwiki.com/Bishop)

A bishop holds one of the key ecclesiastical positions within the Mormon Church. He is the leader of a local congregation, known as a ward. The position of a bishop within the Mormon Church differs from the position with the same name in other denominations. In other churches, a bishop may administer a large geographical area involving a large number of congregations. The Mormon position of bishop is most analogous to the position of a rabbi, minister, pastor, or parish priest in other denominations. The position of bishop is singular; there is only one bishop per congregation at any given time. [/*]

Aah, thanks, Golly, getting lazy in my old age. :)

I wonder if they identified who the bishop is, and, since they have evidence that he was tracking family groups, if they can compel him to testify to help sort things out.

[evalles]

"My agenda is to get the truth out. They went in there thinking this was great and it's turning out to be a nightmare," Kight said. "... I don't know if the governor is deciding to cover his tracks or what, but to say CPS is acting professionally is ridiculous. It's all going to come out whether the governor likes it or not."
Kight, a retired Kendall County, Texas, commissioner who lives near the San Antonio suburb of Boerne, said he has contacted "nationally known" civil rights lawyers about the situation and will be meeting with them next week.


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9271334

[Rainkiss]

Thanks for the link...

Another point of interest in the article:

The governor's spokeswoman said the complaints were released to the news media before state officials were notified.
"Considering that DFPS (the Texas Department of Family Protective Services) had to ask for those reports after reading about them in the newspaper might suggest that he (Kight) might have his own agenda," Piferrer said.

[evalles]

See who's making decisions for these children

4) COMMISSIONER COCKERELL (OVER CPS) who testified before the TX senate committee alleging FLDS abuse--himself is under suit for being responsible for a TX worker convicted of rape of youths in TX institution that Cockerell oversees--cover up too suit says.

http://www.mysanantonio.c...



Besides administrators at Nixon and HHS officials in Washington and South Texas, the suit accuses state officials of negligence. Specifically named are Carey Cockerell, Dianna Spiser and Joyce James, the top bosses at the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Thanks for the link...

Another point of interest in the article:

[/*]


Like.... what ? The governor is in charge of CPS, if they go down, he goes with them.

Maybe, they knew it wouldn't do any good to contact the perpetrators or maybe they did and the governor isn't aware.

Maybe based on all the propaganda against the FLDS, someone wants the truth to come out.

What agenda would this man have ?

Kight, a retired Kendall County, Texas, commissioner who lives near the San Antonio suburb of Boerne, said he has contacted "nationally known" civil rights lawyers about the situation and will be meeting with them next week.

Does it not concern you, that this might have happened ?

[evalles]

TX comptroller's report children are raped, die in Tx CPS custody daily.

http://www.window.state.t...

Remember the First Baptist Church buses who hauled children away? Well, TX baptist (oversaw gulags shelters) and BFCS -Baptist Family Children Services (and other baptist orgs.) have kids in custody, as TX contracts out it adoption/foster programs.

http://www.abpnews.com/31...

Here is TX Baptist's sexual abuse of children:

http://www.dallasnews.com...

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by evalles
See who's making decisions for these children

4) COMMISSIONER COCKERELL (OVER CPS) who testified before the TX senate committee alleging FLDS abuse--himself is under suit for being responsible for a TX worker convicted of rape of youths in TX institution that Cockerell oversees--cover up too suit says.

http://www.mysanantonio.c...

*snip* [/*]

Could you please repost the link? Yours seems to be broken. TIA.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by evalles
TX comptroller's report children are raped, die in Tx CPS custody daily.

http://www.window.state.t...

Remember the First Baptist Church buses who hauled children away? Well, TX baptist (oversaw gulags shelters) and BFCS -Baptist Family Children Services (and other baptist orgs.) have kids in custody, as TX contracts out it adoption/foster programs.

http://www.abpnews.com/31...

Here is TX Baptist's sexual abuse of children:

http://www.dallasnews.com... [/*]

Evalles... There's an http:// button up above the text box. Please use it instead of just pasting long links. Your links don't work, so nobody can follow them and see what you're talking about.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by evalles
TX comptroller's report children are raped, die in Tx CPS custody daily.

http://www.window.state.t...

Remember the First Baptist Church buses who hauled children away? Well, TX baptist (oversaw gulags shelters) and BFCS -Baptist Family Children Services (and other baptist orgs.) have kids in custody, as TX contracts out it adoption/foster programs.

http://www.abpnews.com/31...

Here is TX Baptist's sexual abuse of children:

http://www.dallasnews.com... [/*]

I can't get to your links... But, is that comptroller's report the one we talked about weeks ago that was proven to be pretty much total lies? The one that shut down a camp and got her, personally, and the state sued by the people she slandered in it?

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


I can't get to your links... But, is that comptroller's report the one we talked about weeks ago that was proven to be pretty much total lies? The one that shut down a camp and got her, personally, and the state sued by the people she slandered in it? [/*]

Never proven to be total lies.

[evalles]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


Evalles... There's an http:// button up above the text box. Please use it instead of just pasting long links. Your links don't work, so nobody can follow them and see what you're talking about. [/*]

Oops

http://www.abpnews.com/3120.article

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/060607dnmetbaptistabuse.3748e50.html

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA021608.01*.immig-childabuse.3689173.html

[evalles]

Originally posted by Soldiermom08
re: the second link...whats so bad about this story? The Baptist churches are being proactive in helping people who may be victims of abuse by clergy- any denomination from what I gather- theres a hotline etc. and protocol to follow. At least they are doing SOMETHING- and are no longer standing with their heads in the sand denying that religious people do such things!!

jmo [/*]

Texas baptist social services is contracted through CPS.
Sexual abuse happens in all religions and communities.

[Details]

Originally posted by evalles
Texas baptist social services is contracted through CPS.
Sexual abuse happens in all religions and communities. [/*]But in some religions it's endorsed and ordered from the top, in others, it's an abberation, rogue individuals who hide their activities. And this shows in the percentages - 58% of underage girls have a child or a pregnancy. You won't find another religion with anything remotely close to that in America.

[evalles]

My company's owner who has been following this case, believes that the compound was raided because the gov't wants the land for the NAFTA superhwy.

I don't see any evidence that this is the case, but it's an interesting, if somewhat far-fetched theory.

http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=149495;article=118386;

[Details]

Pretty far fetched - I'd agree - from what I've read, the NAFTA superhighway is a combination of a pure conspiracy theory, and a fairly innocuous government program involving existing freeways.

The cult's compound wasn't that large (in freeway terms) - if they were picking up huge bits of land for the mythical freeway, this would be an incredibly small part of it.