Daily Thread 4-18-08 [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

Rainkiss

04-11-2008, 04:08 PM

What I'm concerned about is what's going to happen to those kids. Most of them apparently either can't or won't identify their parents, or identify multiple mothers. I'm not even sure you can do a paternity test without having an identified mother, can you? And, apparently, the women who've gone with the kids aren't helping. I certainly understand the whole parental rights issue... But if you can't identify the parent, do they actually have any rights?

:confused:

Carol25

04-11-2008, 05:15 PM

Carol25

04-11-2008, 05:20 PM

I would guess the next order of business should be a court order for blood tests of the men in the compound to prove statutory rape. Once they have the children and the mothers, they can prove who the fathers are and the cases can be proven through DNA and cannot be refuted. All of the men can be declared suspects and be held in the compound, can't they?

Shells2

04-11-2008, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
What I'm concerned about is what's going to happen to those kids. Most of them apparently either can't or won't identify their parents, or identify multiple mothers. I'm not even sure you can do a paternity test without having an identified mother, can you? And, apparently, the women who've gone with the kids aren't helping. I certainly understand the whole parental rights issue... But if you can't identify the parent, do they actually have any rights?

:confused: [/*]

I think if they took DNA samples from all of the women and all of the men, and then compared them with the DNA of the children they would be able to come up with who parented who ( but I'm not sure on the science of that)

These people are so brainwashed it is going to take a very long time for them to heal and tell anyone anything. They are raised with secrecy and deceit being rewarded and fears of Hell and damnation being drilled into them - it's a horrible situation.

Freebird

04-11-2008, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
What I'm concerned about is what's going to happen to those kids. Most of them apparently either can't or won't identify their parents, or identify multiple mothers. I'm not even sure you can do a paternity test without having an identified mother, can you? And, apparently, the women who've gone with the kids aren't helping. I certainly understand the whole parental rights issue... But if you can't identify the parent, do they actually have any rights?

:confused: [/*]

Not only that,Texas doesn't even have enough foster homes for 401 kids.

1 possible solution is to send the women and kids back to the ranch since the men are being kicked off it(and probably will end up being arrested).No point in letting all those houses(and school)go to waste if you don't have enough foster homes.

Freebird

04-11-2008, 10:10 PM

Details

04-11-2008, 11:32 PM

DNA works fine even if you don't have one parent. Both mother and father, independently, can easily enough be found.

Texas has enough foster homes. The little town where they are may not, but Texas - heck yes, it has enough foster homes.

It's a big problem, but the children are in far better shape now than before - before they were in huge danger, now they are saved from a terrible fate (to become either a child 'bride', a pedophile, or a lost boy). It'll be difficult, and this will take time, but on the whole, it'll be immensely better than their future was a mere month ago.

I suspect some of the women will turn out to be fit mothers, and will help foster many of the children, some may be adopted, some will go back to their original parents, others will go to foster homes - if necessary that could be in other states - I suspect many of them would feel most at home in Utah in a Mormon home.

wandering

04-11-2008, 11:34 PM

Greta just reported there were 416 children removed.

They are looking for foster homes for them.

The court hearing is on the 17th.

Freebird

04-12-2008, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by wandering
Greta just reported there were 416 children removed.

They are looking for foster homes for them.

The court hearing is on the 17th. [/*]

I really feel sorry for these kids.

Freebird

04-12-2008, 01:26 AM

Some of these kids are not being allowed to see their mothers.

Freebird

04-12-2008, 01:39 AM

These kids are in for culture shock if they are put into foster care and their experience may only deepen their mistrust of the outside world.

Details

04-12-2008, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by Freebird
These kids are in for culture shock if they are put into foster care and their experience may only deepen their mistrust of the outside world. [/*]Solutions?

Court documents noted that among the children there was a 16-year-old girl who had given birth to four children. How do you propose to help her? Leave her with her rapist? Or with her rapist's enablers? Or do we try to help her - even if the truth about the outside world will be shocking - it would be no matter what. Foster families are there to help all kinds of traumatized children - these are not that much different.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4635296&page=3

duncan

04-12-2008, 03:00 AM

The fate of these children???

These children may have a hope for a good future, they have been rescued from demons, omo, and will have a chance to succeed in life, and freedom to choose their own path in life.

Texans should be proud .

zone

04-12-2008, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
From everything I have read and seen so far the whole state of TX is behind these children. It is going to take some time but at least these children stand a chance whereas if they had stayed in the FLDS flock the futures would be far greater of being abused then they are in the foster system. People are basically good and these children will be taken care of. We just have to allow the judicial system to work. The fates of being a child bride would have been so much greater if they were not pulled out when they were. They are going to have a hard time but if everybody pulls together these kids at least now stand a chance at a decent life.
jmoo [/*]

ITA that these kids are going to have a hard time.

wandering

04-13-2008, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Carol25
I would guess the next order of business should be a court order for blood tests of the men in the compound to prove statutory rape. Once they have the children and the mothers, they can prove who the fathers are and the cases can be proven through DNA and cannot be refuted. All of the men can be declared suspects and be held in the compound, can't they? [/*]I'm not sure the court can do that. It's a tremendous violation of rights. These women and children are not criminals, are they? :confused:

Carol25

04-14-2008, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by wandering
I'm not sure the court can do that. It's a tremendous violation of rights. These women and children are not criminals, are they? :confused: [/*]
No, but their DNA would be needed to find out who impregnated them, or who the rapist was. I meant only the DNA from the young mothers. Don't know if that would be legal or not.

Carol25

04-14-2008, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080413/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

SAN ANGELO, Texas - The mothers of children removed from a polygamous sect's ranch in West Texas after an abuse allegation are appealing to Gov. Rick Perry for help, saying some of their children have become sick and even required hospitalization.

In the letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, the mothers from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints also say children are "horrified" by physical examinations they have undergone while in state custody. [/*]
Didn't we hear that some of the children had chicken pox when they arrived?

Details

04-14-2008, 02:46 AM

These are the mothers I was thinking about when I said I think there is good reason they aren't allowed to just have the children. Children being married to old men, having to have sex - in their mind, that's fine. But a trip to the doctor - horrible!

juliekan

04-14-2008, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by Carol25

Didn't we hear that some of the children had chicken pox when they arrived? [/*]
Yep, chicken pox...what do you expect when there are a zillion little kids to pass it on to?

LLaFren

04-14-2008, 06:45 AM

um, this may sound like a stupid question, but, here goes anyway... Aren't vaccines required by law? And isn't there one for chicken pox these days? I seem to recall all of my kids getting one.

Of course if they're not going to school, I guess no one can confirm that the children have received proper medical care.

No wonder these kids are upset about being seen by a doctor.

:(

Freebird

04-14-2008, 07:02 AM

Wait till these kids realize they may not see their mothers again.

lotty

04-14-2008, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by LLaFren
um, this may sound like a stupid question, but, here goes anyway... Aren't vaccines required by law? And isn't there one for chicken pox these days? I seem to recall all of my kids getting one.

Of course if they're not going to school, I guess no one can confirm that the children have received proper medical care.

No wonder these kids are upset about being seen by a doctor.

:( [/*]

I don't know about other states. In New Mexico they are required for public school...it's a law. If they are home schooled nope. I know a few kids that are home schooled and not innoculated.
The varicella vaccine covers chicken pox.

dsmith

04-14-2008, 01:36 PM

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMIST_RETREAT?SITE=KPUA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Apr 14, 12:29 PM EDT

Gary Banks, a lawyer representing the state Children's Protective Services, told the judge the state believes "there is a systematic process at the ranch near Eldorado at which children were exploited and sexually abused."

dsmith

04-14-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by grammybear
.

Parents are supposed to protect their babies, not feed them to the wolves. Being a parent, such as it is is a very loose term for the care they gave these babies. They have already proven they can not be trusted with the care of these children, so now it is time for someone else to step in and give the children the needs by a loving caregiver not just by a biological parent who will use and abuse them.

jmoo [/*]

grammybear no truer words have been spoken.

walton

04-14-2008, 03:35 PM

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270178,00.html

"They wouldn't have gone to Texas if they hadn't been running away from us," he said in a recent interview with the Deseret News. "They went to Texas to flee when we started cracking down."

Anti-polygamy activists have gone on cable-TV talk shows and given interviews praising Texas for the raid.

"At least Texas has finally done something about this horrid cult, while Arizona and Utah have swept it under the rug for a hundred years," Dot Reidelbach, the director of the FLDS documentary "Banking on Heaven," wrote in an e-mail to supporters.

Still, Shurtleff said he had no plans to conduct a similar mass-scale raid on the polygamous border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz.

"And do what? Arrest thousands of polygamists in Utah? We wouldn't have 400 kids, we'd have thousands in our foster care and thousands of their parents in the prison system. It's not practical to do that," Shurtleff said. "We were right to focus on abused children."

Why let them get abused first? Why not stop the abuse before they become a victim?

The taxpayers are already footing a large bill with the amount of social services that they are collecting.
Men with over 100 children , one legal wife and 13 "spiritual" wives. Can't tell me that isn't costing the taxpayer. That is just one family.

Chased them out of Utah? They had it so good that they thought they'd set up shop in other states. jmo

It has just been recently that some of the LE in that area have had to step down because they were part of Warrens group. LE officials that the state KNEW were part of the problem.

There was at least one case where a Judge was asked to step down because he too was a polygamist.

Polygamy is against the law. The states of Arizona and Utah have been watching and waiting for victims for over 100 years. Isn't it about time that they stop watching and start doing?

jmo

spydernweb2006

04-14-2008, 04:50 PM

To the People of Utah and Arizona Governments and Law Efforcement please READ THIS!

"All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good (people) to do nothing."
--Edmund Burke

You have stood by for over a hundred YEARS and allowed children to be exploited and abused while you stood around and did nothing. You shouldn't fear the backlash of doing something in Utah and Arizona, you should fear the backlash if you DONT!

The barn door has been opened and you can not close it. I dont believe anyone will tolerate the rampant abuse of children by the FLDS any longer. If Utah is afraid to do something to help these children because of numbers that could reach into the thousands what the heck is gonna happen when that number grows into millions?

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

spydernweb2006

04-14-2008, 05:37 PM

The children have been moved.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AlvDKyCfsFVh9xEcHpbySYms0N UE

I can hope, wish and pray they children will moved far enough away to be removed from any influence that will help the people abusing them.

As for those that complained to the Tx Govenor, becareful what you ask for...... You may just get it!

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

Carol25

04-14-2008, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

"Of the 139 women who voluntarily left the compound with their children since an April 3 raid, only those with children 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales, spokewoman for the state Children's Protective Services agency. She did not know how many women stayed.

"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said." [/*]
The article says the men would be willing to leave and let the women and children come back with Child Protection Monitors. sure, we would never see the men again now, would we! Let's get some blood tests done, then we'll have the men come out...and put them in jail.

VC2

04-14-2008, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

"Of the 139 women who voluntarily left the compound with their children since an April 3 raid, only those with children 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales, spokewoman for the state Children's Protective Services agency. She did not know how many women stayed.

"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said." [/*]

what about the mothers who are underage? Are they being forced to leave them or not? It seems a bit much if a rape victims children are forced away from her!

Freebird

04-14-2008, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

"Of the 139 women who voluntarily left the compound with their children since an April 3 raid, only those with children 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales, spokewoman for the state Children's Protective Services agency. She did not know how many women stayed.

"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said." [/*]

What must be going through the minds of these kids.Thrust into a world they may distrust.And now most deprived of their mothers.I don't see how these kids can grow up trusting a world that took them away from their mothers.

:rose: for the kids.

Freebird

04-14-2008, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Carol25

The article says the men would be willing to leave and let the women and children come back with Child Protection Monitors. sure, we would never see the men again now, would we! Let's get some blood tests done, then we'll have the men come out...and put them in jail. [/*]

Since the men will most likely be arrested,that would mean the ranch would be vacant.So why not send the women and kids back? Along with CPM's.I think the ranch is the only place big enough to take this group on a permanent basis.Although I wonder why they just didn't arrest the men and take them instead of the kids.

aubrey04

04-14-2008, 11:08 PM

How does this go unnoticed for so long? This is horrendous. Anderson Cooper is interviewing a lady right now and she seems like a robot. Totally coached and brain-washed. She is monotone and just VERY, very coached.

wandering

04-14-2008, 11:25 PM

walton

04-15-2008, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by aubrey04
How does this go unnoticed for so long? This is horrendous. Anderson Cooper is interviewing a lady right now and she seems like a robot. Totally coached and brain-washed. She is monotone and just VERY, very coached. [/*]

Over the last 3-4 years on this board, I've tried really hard not to show my emotions. I've tried really hard to not get close to anyone. Until now.

:( << I don't know how to do the crying smiley icon. ( Go figure)

I think the world of Texas and I appreciate each and every one of you. Thanks.

lotty

04-15-2008, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by walton

snipped
Over the last 3-4 years on this board, I've tried really hard not to show my emotions. I've tried really hard to not get close to anyone. Until now.
I think the world of Texas and I appreciate each and every one of you. Thanks. [/*]

Walton you have done an amazing job. Long, have I admired your self control...Probably because I don't have so much especially not today.

Your research has been outstanding...I'm guessing your knowledge of the FLDS is pretty much encyclopedic by now.

Maybe we can hope the end is finally near.:beer:

Carol25

04-15-2008, 12:46 AM

Walton, I posted with you during the Jeffs trial. I also have appreciated your expertise. I don't know what made you become so involved with this topic, but I and many others have benefitted so much from your knowledge. Thank you from me anf many others. :beer:

lotty

04-15-2008, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by Carol25
Walton, I posted with you during the Jeffs trial. I also have appreciated your expertise. I don't know what made you become so involved with this topic, but I and many others have benefitted so much from your knowledge. Thank you from me anf many others. :beer: [/*]

DITTO

I was hoping against hope after the Jeffs conviction that maybe just maybe things would wind down. Nope, too much money, power, control. I was really hoping. I had posted a few days earlier...Let's hope Texas crosses their "T's" and dots their "I's"
it is indeed a monumental task. I'm sure hoping this time that someone is up for the job. :rose:

Carol25

04-15-2008, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by lotty

DITTO

I was hoping against hope after the Jeffs conviction that maybe just maybe things would wind down. Nope, too much money, power, control. I was really hoping. I had posted a few days earlier...Let's hope Texas crosses their "T's" and dots their "I's"
it is indeed a monumental task. I'm sure hoping this time that someone is up for the job. :rose: [/*]
Lotty, I agree. And if someome started the movement in Utah, just targeting 20 families at a time, they would know their time has come.

All they have to do is go in unannounced and find the pregnant teenagers and bring them out and start the DNA work.

Carol25

04-15-2008, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by RachelRose
I'm just sick at all of this.

I will totally acknowledge that this was a GREAT setup for the powerful men in this cult - I'm sure they're mourning the deal they had set up - having their pick of the 16 year old girls coming of "age" - as they see it - and having sex with numerous beautiful young women. But hey, read Genesis in our Christian Bible and there it is. So we can't really say as a culture we don't embrace it.

I acknowledge that many of these 16 year old girls were in for a shock and unpleasant introduction to sexuality. It's not like giving yourself to a boy you are in love with. But wow there are pitfalls to that too.

So I think we're down to this. How many people in that compound are in such despair that they can't function, they kill themselves, and turn to drugs and alcohol and laying on the streets in grief?

This is the fate of these children. This is their future. Not many of them are going to sprout wings and fly into a successful future - probably most of them will languish the way American Indians did on the reservations, and the way Katrina evacuees are now doing.

People who are evacuated against their will - despite the fact that we think it needs to be done - don't thrive.

You can throw stones at me for this, but these kids will NOT thrive. Compare their existance in 10 years to what it would have been in the compound, which in fact, is thriving. Despite the ick factor of old guys having sex with 16 year old girls. [/*]
RachelRose, your post is welcome for anyone can post their thoughts. I have to disagree with one point, however.
People who are evacuated can and most likely will thrive. I can't understand why you would say the opposite. Remember, they aren't being left to their own devices for survival. They are going to loving foster homes that will help them acclimate to their new world of freedoms, choices and living without fear.

Carol25

04-15-2008, 10:47 PM

lonetraveler

04-15-2008, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Freebird
Some of these kids are not being allowed to see their mothers. [/*]

==============================================
The reason may be because the mothers were using cell phones to get instructions from the men on the compound. When the LE realized this, the cell phones were taken away. Obviously, the women felt that they could not be useful without direction from the men and decided to return to the compound. Maybe the LE can be more effective in communicating with the children without the mother spies there to interfere. this information was reported per news networks yesterday. I'm not posting a link. Look up yesterday's news. Fox or Headline.

wandering

04-15-2008, 11:14 PM

This is a very sad situation, for both the children and the mothers.

Those women look so sad and lost without their children. I'm sure the children were the joy in their lives, maybe their only joy.

:rose:

Freebird

04-15-2008, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by lonetraveler

==============================================
The reason may be because the mothers were using cell phones to get instructions from the men on the compound. When the LE realized this, the cell phones were taken away. Obviously, the women felt that they could not be useful without direction from the men and decided to return to the compound. Maybe the LE can be more effective in communicating with the children without the mother spies there to interfere. this information was reported per news networks yesterday. I'm not posting a link. Look up yesterday's news. Fox or Headline. [/*]

Mother spies???:lol:

Freebird

04-15-2008, 11:45 PM

These kids are being moved around like cattle.

gxm17

04-15-2008, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by RachelRose
Carol, no they don't. People who resist evacuation don't thrive.

You may not be aware, or be educated, in refugee populations.

Everyone has this fantasy that now that these children taste our society, they will be thrilled and grow. They won't.

Post back in 10 years and we'll re-discuss this.

And Carol, have you ever dealt with the foster care system? "Loving"? Many ARE, that's for sure. Many foster care families are a god blessing for chidren who were beaten and starved and neglected, thank goodness for those families!

But if you haven't dealt with kids in the foster care system (I have) many are neglected and emotionally starved in homes that just want money.

Sad sad sad. This is not going to work out. [/*]

IMO, raising sons to be abusers and girls to be the passive receivers of abuse is not working either.

If NAMBLA "got religion" and claimed that having sex with underage boys was their ticket to heaven, would or should it be condoned? Of course not! FLDS abuse has gone on too long. Child rape and incest are not religious practices and these people are not being persecuted. They are being held accountable to the laws of our land. Every child should be removed from this cult as early as is possible. It may not be the perfect solution, but it's much better than the alternative.

Your cavalier attitude toward rape of young girls (and younger than 16 in some cases) is unbelievable. Seriously, reading your posts made my skin crawl. The "ick" factor of rape? Wow. It's illegal for a reason. It's got a very high "ick" factor.

JMHO.

spydernweb2006

04-15-2008, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by RachelRose

Carol, how sweet of you to close with "respectfully".

I've been through San Angelo, and Eldorado on the way to Lubbock. I have a son at Texas Tech.

San Angelo is a place where you can probably get gas, and a hamburger on your way through there. That they have good foster care for 24 teenage boys who don't want to be there is questionable.

My heart aches for these children and mothers.

Respectfully Rachel. [/*]

IMO those boys will have more of a chance at a future then had they become "Lost Boys". FLDS is infamous for dumping their teenage boys off and making them fend for themselves in a world they have no idea of and no resources. Please go read about them at the childbrides.org site, it will tear your heart out. I would rather see 500 Mothers crying then hear ONE CHILD crying from abuse.

Texas, is doing this correctly. They went in on proable cause, saw other abuse and took action. From this point till the actual court cases I expect to hear ALOT of FLDS Propaganda. The fact that these Mothers refused to answer LE questions in regard to which child even belonged to them tells me something rotten is going on and the BEST Intrests of the children should be the 1st and foremost consideration.

To blame the State of Texas for acting in a legal straightforward manner is just a diversion from why they got their kids removed in the 1st place. I assure you if LE had any proof or reasonable suspicion that a child/children were indeed psychially or sexually abused they would remove that child and do a full investigation. The Eldorado FLDS Compound is just being held to the EXACT legal repercussions for ANYONE that violates the law inregard to the welfare of children.

Before casting stones at Texas for actually doing something I'd like to see people casting stones at the FLDS for creating this problem to begin with! I dont care what legal adults do in the practice of their religon or daily life. I DO CARE when any child is being abused in any manner, for ANY reason.

Let us always remember the real victims in this case, the children. Let us put their needs first and foremost. Is this a nightmare, you bet it is, but IMO the FLDS created it, now Texas has to clean it up. I just wish Arizona and Utah would follow suit.

JMHO

Hugs,
Spyder

walton

04-15-2008, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by RachelRose
Carol, no they don't. People who resist evacuation don't thrive.

You may not be aware, or be educated, in refugee populations.

Everyone has this fantasy that now that these children taste our society, they will be thrilled and grow. They won't.

Post back in 10 years and we'll re-discuss this.

And Carol, have you ever dealt with the foster care system? "Loving"? Many ARE, that's for sure. Many foster care families are a god blessing for chidren who were beaten and starved and neglected, thank goodness for those families!

But if you haven't dealt with kids in the foster care system (I have) many are neglected and emotionally starved in homes that just want money.

Sad sad sad. This is not going to work out. [/*]

I'll just bet you those kids stand a heck of better chance "thriving" in those foster homes in Texas than they would working at the YFZ ranch.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger

Up to 1,000 teenage boys have been separated from their parents and thrown out of their communities by a polygamous sect to make more young women available for older men, Utah officials claim.
Many of these "Lost Boys", some as young as 13, have simply been dumped on the side of the road in Arizona and Utah, by the leaders of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), and told they will never see their families again or go to heaven.

Can you imagine the pain and the hurt that these kids felt when their own parents tossed them to the side?

But if you haven't dealt with kids in the foster care system (I have) many are neglected and emotionally starved in homes that just want money. I don't know what you do for those kids in foster care but it looks as if you are facing a burn out. If I were you I would change professions. jmo Respectfully Walton

Freebird

04-16-2008, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by walton

I'll just bet you those kids stand a heck of better chance "thriving" in those foster homes in Texas than they would working at the YFZ ranch.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger

Up to 1,000 teenage boys have been separated from their parents and thrown out of their communities by a polygamous sect to make more young women available for older men, Utah officials claim.
Many of these "Lost Boys", some as young as 13, have simply been dumped on the side of the road in Arizona and Utah, by the leaders of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), and told they will never see their families again or go to heaven.

Can you imagine the pain and the hurt that these kids felt when their own parents tossed them to the side?

I don't know what you do for those kids in foster care but it looks as if you are facing a burn out. If I were you I would change professions. jmo Respectfully Walton [/*]

How is that pain and hurt any different then the pain and hurt these kids and their mothers are going through?

Carol25

04-16-2008, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Freebird

How is that pain and hurt any different then the pain and hurt these kids and their mothers are going through? [/*]
Different?
A boy who is taught that the outside world is the den of Satan is suddenly turned out into it! He has no where to go, no one to go to and just walks bewildered into the unknown. How on earth are they to physically and emotionally supposed to survive? Literally?
The children who are with Protective Services are having their needs met, will be met with loving parents if necessary or possibly reunited with their mothers. Their mothers are in their homes, their comforts met and are dealing with their emotions as adults, unlike their boys they've thrown out into Satan's world as they may have done just recently, alone, lost and bewildered.

I'd say there's a GREAT BIG difference!

Details

04-16-2008, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Freebird
How is that pain and hurt any different then the pain and hurt these kids and their mothers are going through? [/*]Hmmm - let's see. Rather than being cast out by those the only family they've ever known, they're being pulled out, with that family actually acting like they want them back. Rather than thrown out on the street with no skills, they're going to a family where they can go to school, learn, and have a new family that loves them - as most foster parents do a very good job at. Rather than no one looking out for their wellbeing, there's an attorney, the state, the new foster family, and their old family.

Yeah, no difference at all.

As to the mothers - they don't deserve the title, if they'd sentence their children to the cult's lifestyle. I couldn't care less about their pain - abusive parents always are hurt when they lose their children. Too bad.

lotty

04-16-2008, 02:08 AM

:beer: Details and Carol 25 DITTO

I am an adult...Can't get me to even walk in the desert on the "Creek" CC/Hilldale alone. Sure wouldn't want to be a kid...not even a 16 or 17yo boy. In Satan's world, no family, no hope, no money and no salvation. Can't return, not an option. Nope I am a full fledged wimp. Yet some of them take it one step at a time and walk out of the desert. The hurdles, I can't begin to imagine. Want to talk about a massive amount of respect for the few who end up somewhere, that we don't hear about often. That will never know, that "me" one person, is in complete awe of their accomplishment.:read:

juliekan

04-16-2008, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by Freebird
These kids are being moved around like cattle. [/*]
At least it keeps them out of the breeding pens.

juliekan

04-16-2008, 06:38 AM

juliekan

04-16-2008, 07:14 AM

www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/16/quilting-marathon-for-flds-children-to-continue/
Yeah, nobody cares about these children:rolleyes:

Freebird

04-16-2008, 07:44 AM

These kids are now expected to develop trust and rapport with those that took them from their mothers? I don't see that happening.

juliekan

04-16-2008, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by Freebird
These kids are now expected to develop trust and rapport with those that took them from their mothers? I don't see that happening. [/*]
So what, back to the breeding pen for the cattle?

RayStar

04-16-2008, 08:26 AM

This is unbelievable these women on the today look awful. They appear to be very sad. Their sadness has taken away their outside beauty. I wonder why they do not see the harm their lifestyles have brought to their children. Love my children one says. I say break this cult up!
:(

dsmith

04-16-2008, 09:01 AM

just now on fox news they had three of the women on so sad to hear them talk in the next hour on fox they will have three more women on the one thing that got me was one of the women said they live a pure life I have read that they went there to have a pure race so that being said the pure race is when you have inbreeding

dsmith

04-16-2008, 09:35 AM

on fox now three different women talking about the "raid" seems to me a little of brain washing to me I do not believe all of what these women are saying I remember someone talking about taking away cellphones could it be that these women were the women are some of the ones that phones were taken from

dsmith

04-16-2008, 09:56 AM

after watching both sets of women talking I must say they are no different than other women suffering from some sort of abuse they have been programed

Rainkiss

04-16-2008, 09:58 AM

Like RachelRose (apparently), I've got some experience with foster kids. I don't do that any more, I DID burn out. Going home after work with the sure knowledge that everything you can do won't help some of these kids recover from the damage that's been done to them by their parents or other relatives, and again by the system that's supposed to protect them is a nightmare, and I'm glad there are people out there stronger than I am who can do it.

The younger ones will do better, they haven't had the years of indoctrination that the older ones have. The teens have already got it into their brain's wiring that the way they've been raised is the only way for salvation for them, and they're not going to accept any other reality view.

Unfortunately, the laws that protect us all from things like unreasonable search and seizure also shield these compounds. Unless a police officer has a reason to come into your house and look for evidence of a crime, he can't do it. He can suspect you're, say, growing pot in your basement, but unless he has SOME evidence to take to a judge, he can't just wander down there and look without your permission. Until they had a reason to go into the compound, they could suspect there were children being abused, but without those phone calls, they had not a shred of proof that there WERE children being abused.

To their credit, they had a plan in place, due to their suspicions, and moved quickly and effectively once they HAD the opportunity provided by one girl.

lotty

04-16-2008, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

At least it keeps them out of the breeding pens. [/*]

IMO/JMO Funny you should mention this...I posted a link from Canada on the links thread.

A former FLDS sister wife talks about animal husbandry is the basis for their "reproductive system" I guess you would call it. The link to the video is on the right side of the article...it has been updated for the Eldorado incident...about 40 minutes long, interesting to watch. Winston Blackmore says to discuss his sex life would be pornography and she is talking about animal husbandry. Go figure. As always IMO/JMO.

SavannahStar

04-16-2008, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by wandering
This is a very sad situation, for both the children and the mothers.

Those women look so sad and lost without their children. I'm sure the children were the joy in their lives, maybe their only joy.

:rose: [/*]

ITA.

:rose:

dsmith

04-16-2008, 02:29 PM

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/041508dnmetpoygamists.68613cc9.html

They said they have been unable to get information out of the kids in the current environment.

"We will never learn the full truth as long as there are adults who encourage a code of silence and stand over the children's shoulders coaching them," said Darrell Azar, a spokesman with the Department of Family and Protective Services.

"Unfortunately, these women have been unable or unwilling to protect these children from a pattern of sexual abuse in the past," he said.

He said officials believe they won't have success interviewing the children until after Thursday's custody hearing, when he expects a judge to order their move to foster homes or small group homes.

tisamystery

04-16-2008, 04:22 PM

I wonder if any children suffering from fumarase deficiency were found at FYZ? It's a rare genetic disease, half of the cases in the world are found within the FLDS. It causes severe mental retardation and seizures. While they may keep these children hidden from view, surely a raid of the compound would have found them. On the other hand, it appears the YFZ ranch was populated by hand-picked FLDS members, so perhaps they hoped to separate carriers from non-carriers and purify the new group. This wouldn't have worked, of course, since it's believed the reason they are so plagued is due to in-breeding. Simply moving the apparently "unaffected" to an new compound won't change the genetics. I wonder if that was the motive for YTZ?

dicee

04-17-2008, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by dsmith
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/041508dnmetpoygamists.68613cc9.html

They said they have been unable to get information out of the kids in the current environment.

"We will never learn the full truth as long as there are adults who encourage a code of silence and stand over the children's shoulders coaching them," said Darrell Azar, a spokesman with the Department of Family and Protective Services.

"Unfortunately, these women have been unable or unwilling to protect these children from a pattern of sexual abuse in the past," he said.

He said officials believe they won't have success interviewing the children until after Thursday's custody hearing, when he expects a judge to order their move to foster homes or small group homes. [/*]

I don''t think they'll get much of anything out of this kids who must be scared out of their wits.With or without their mothers.

wandering

04-17-2008, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by tisamystery
I wonder if any children suffering from fumarase deficiency were found at FYZ? It's a rare genetic disease, half of the cases in the world are found within the FLDS. It causes severe mental retardation and seizures. While they may keep these children hidden from view, surely a raid of the compound would have found them. On the other hand, it appears the YFZ ranch was populated by hand-picked FLDS members, so perhaps they hoped to separate carriers from non-carriers and purify the new group. This wouldn't have worked, of course, since it's believed the reason they are so plagued is due to in-breeding. Simply moving the apparently "unaffected" to an new compound won't change the genetics. I wonder if that was the motive for YTZ? [/*]On LKL, one of the mothers (Sally) said her 5 year old son is handicapped, and they won't let her have him to care for him.

juliekan

04-17-2008, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by wandering
On LKL, one of the mothers (Sally) said her 5 year old son is handicapped, and they won't let her have him to care for him. [/*]
And you think they have better resources at the YFZ compound to care for him:shrug:

walton

04-17-2008, 01:48 AM

http://myeldorado.net/ Check out the photos that Randy has provided

The boys climbed right up on in that big ol iron thing. When allowed the freedom to be kids that is just what these kids chose to do. Be curious and playful.

Randy also has a really good interview with Sheriff Doran.

IMO the LE and Child Protective Services acted professionally and accordingly.

Great Job Texas!! :patriot:

lotty

04-17-2008, 02:03 AM

The photos are fantastic. Great find, boys being boys. Made me smile.:D

walton

04-17-2008, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by lotty
The photos are fantastic. Great find, boys being boys. Made me smile.:D [/*]

Me too.

Thanks Randy and Kathy for sharing.

dicee

04-17-2008, 08:36 AM

What happens if the state doesn't get custody of these kids?

Rainkiss

04-17-2008, 10:05 AM

Scary thought, Dicee... I'm not a lawyer or an expert, but I'd imagine that, should the judge not find reason to keep the children in state custody, they'd go back to their parents.

However, I'd argue that a display of pregnant girls under the age of 18 constitutes fairly decent evidence... Also, the fact that they're having trouble determining exactly who the parents of the children ARE is going to toss a wrench into the process of returning them to the compound. Of course, the process of determining that the five year old boy is the son of, say, a nineteen year old woman is going to give grounds for more charges, so, of course they're going to be hesitant to cooperate.

gxm17

04-17-2008, 10:12 AM

walton

04-17-2008, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by gxm17

That's the strange part of this case. If LE can't determine who the children's parents are, then on what basis can they be returned to the compound? For all we know their parents may not even be at the compound.

JMHO. [/*]

Which very well may be the case for so many of these kids. I would have been the first in line to do anything I could to prove my babies were mine.

Rainkiss

04-17-2008, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by walton

Which very well may be the case for so many of these kids. I would have been the first in line to do anything I could to prove my babies were mine. [/*]

Unless, of course, you were the father of a child of a sixteen year old girl... Or you were the sixteen year old girl who was convinced that claiming your child would get your "spiritual husband" jailed and get you condemned to hell.

IIRC, the girl who made the calls that started this whole thing stated that her parents dropped her off at the compound when she was 16, so, you're correct, it's possible some of the parents aren't present.

dsmith

04-17-2008, 09:58 PM

As long as the children are not there, there will be no abuse of any kind. If the children are returned there will be abuse. No child is safe. If the adults want to return, then let them. Keep the children away until all comes out in court.

witchy1

04-17-2008, 10:29 PM

wandering

04-17-2008, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss

Unless, of course, you were the father of a child of a sixteen year old girl... Or you were the sixteen year old girl who was convinced that claiming your child would get your "spiritual husband" jailed and get you condemned to hell.

IIRC, the girl who made the calls that started this whole thing stated that her parents dropped her off at the compound when she was 16, so, you're correct, it's possible some of the parents aren't present. [/*]I think so. I'm watching LKL, and they showed a clip of the woman (Marilyn) showing them around the BRs. She said one lady had a daughter in there, showed the other beds, and noted there was another little girl's clothes on the bed. Sounded like she didn't even know the child's name. They're stacked like sardines on a grocery shelf. Warehoused.

tisamystery

04-17-2008, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by wandering
They're stacked like sardines on a grocery shelf. Warehoused. [/*]

Did you notice one room had a three-tiered bunk bed?

witchy1

04-17-2008, 11:06 PM

Today, I forget what channel I was watching, had someone on there saying "why is there pictures of Warren Jeffs in every room, like even in the bedrooms. Do the worship him or what?" (paraphrased)

Pruddennce

04-17-2008, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by wandering
I think so. I'm watching LKL, and they showed a clip of the woman (Marilyn) showing them around the BRs. She said one lady had a daughter in there, showed the other beds, and noted there was another little girl's clothes on the bed. Sounded like she didn't even know the child's name. They're stacked like sardines on a grocery shelf. Warehoused. [/*]

awful.

IMO, this is a society comprised of breeding machines for the man's pleasure. if that were not the case, these women would not have returned to the compound without their children.

no maternal instincts. breeders, brainwashed and cant answer a simple question: how old were you when you were 'married'?

they all keep repeating the same mantra: this is about our children.

???????

then why are they there without their children? why arent they staying with their kids?

its incredulous that despite all this brainwashing, none of them have any maternal instincts.

they think they can fool the 'world' with their mantra? duh. they abandoned their kids. they went back without them.

but now are being told what to say: a very weak attempt at feeling something they dont feel.

IMO, if those kids are never returned, the ones still able to bear will start the cycle again.

its not about family, love, love of god or any of that. its about keeping an abuse cycle going, hiding behind a religion that no one can truly identify its purpose. other than abuse of women and children.

breeders.

best regards,
Pru

witchy1

04-17-2008, 11:44 PM

The way I've read it is that Jeff Warren is The Prophet in His church. His father, grandfather , etc. were all members of an elite sect. They married their fathers wives when the fathers passed away. So, in a sense to answer your question, YES. To all of the above.

Cdaus

04-18-2008, 12:52 AM

"Since the men will most likely be arrested,that would mean the ranch would be vacant.So why not send the women and kids back? Along with CPM's.I think the ranch is the only place big enough to take this group on a permanent basis.Although I wonder why they just didn't arrest the men and take them instead of the kids."

EXACTLY! These kids will probably never be the same again, traumatized beyond belief! They need to go home to their own bed.

witchy1

04-18-2008, 12:54 AM

NOT!

juliekan

04-18-2008, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Cdaus
"Since the men will most likely be arrested,that would mean the ranch would be vacant.So why not send the women and kids back? Along with CPM's.I think the ranch is the only place big enough to take this group on a permanent basis.Although I wonder why they just didn't arrest the men and take them instead of the kids."

EXACTLY! These kids will probably never be the same again, traumatized beyond belief! They need to go home to their own bed. [/*]
I'm sorry to post this, but at this point I don't know that their own bed is that safe for them.

Freebird

04-18-2008, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by Cdaus
"Since the men will most likely be arrested,that would mean the ranch would be vacant.So why not send the women and kids back? Along with CPM's.I think the ranch is the only place big enough to take this group on a permanent basis.Although I wonder why they just didn't arrest the men and take them instead of the kids."

EXACTLY! These kids will probably never be the same again, traumatized beyond belief! They need to go home to their own bed. [/*]

ITA...some people seem to think just give them crayons and they'll be fine.

evalles

04-18-2008, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by Freebird

Since the men will most likely be arrested,that would mean the ranch would be vacant.So why not send the women and kids back? Along with CPM's.I think the ranch is the only place big enough to take this group on a permanent basis.Although I wonder why they just didn't arrest the men and take them instead of the kids. [/*]

Because that would have made too much sense.

wandering

04-18-2008, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by witchy1
Today, I forget what channel I was watching, had someone on there saying "why is there pictures of Warren Jeffs in every room, like even in the bedrooms. Do the worship him or what?" (paraphrased) [/*]He's their "Prophet."

wandering

04-18-2008, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Cdaus
"Since the men will most likely be arrested,that would mean the ranch would be vacant.So why not send the women and kids back? Along with CPM's.I think the ranch is the only place big enough to take this group on a permanent basis.Although I wonder why they just didn't arrest the men and take them instead of the kids."

EXACTLY! These kids will probably never be the same again, traumatized beyond belief! They need to go home to their own bed. [/*]Where the heck ARE the men? Can't arrest without charges.

Freebird

04-18-2008, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Because that would have made too much sense. [/*]

The men have offered to leave.Though I'm not sure the women could run that place.

wandering

04-18-2008, 01:13 AM

It doesn't appear that the men live in these log cabins. I'm wondering if they have special quarters in the big white temple.

Couldn't possibly have sex in the women's rooms, where the children sleep. Could they?

witchy1

04-18-2008, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by wandering
He's their "Prophet." [/*]
And that in itself is scary.

evalles

04-18-2008, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Scary thought, Dicee... I'm not a lawyer or an expert, but I'd imagine that, should the judge not find reason to keep the children in state custody, they'd go back to their parents.

However, I'd argue that a display of pregnant girls under the age of 18 constitutes fairly decent evidence... Also, the fact that they're having trouble determining exactly who the parents of the children ARE is going to toss a wrench into the process of returning them to the compound. Of course, the process of determining that the five year old boy is the son of, say, a nineteen year old woman is going to give grounds for more charges, so, of course they're going to be hesitant to cooperate. [/*]

It would only be decent evidence if the girl was under 16.
Texas
Marriage License Information, Laws, Requirements
What is the minimum age a man or woman may marry?
You must be 18 years old or older to marry without parental consent. A birth certificate may be necessary to show proof of age.
What if one or both of us is younger than 18?
If either partner is under 18, parents or legal guardians must be present. If a parent can not be present, due to death, separation, divorce or other circumstances, proper evidence must be presented for verification. You will need a certified copy of your birth certificate. If you are under 16 you can not marry without a court order.
Why does TX allow a 16 yr old to get married and then raid a compound when she does ?

wandering

04-18-2008, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by evalles

It would only be decent evidence if the girl was under 16.
Texas
Marriage License Information, Laws, Requirements
What is the minimum age a man or woman may marry?
You must be 18 years old or older to marry without parental consent. A birth certificate may be necessary to show proof of age.
What if one or both of us is younger than 18?
If either partner is under 18, parents or legal guardians must be present. If a parent can not be present, due to death, separation, divorce or other circumstances, proper evidence must be presented for verification. You will need a certified copy of your birth certificate. If you are under 16 you can not marry without a court order.
Why does TX allow a 16 yr old to get married and then raid a compound when she does ? [/*]These marriages are not legal, they are performed in the FLDS church. Only the man's first wife is legal. It was reported tonight that the younger children do not have birth certificates.

evalles

04-18-2008, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by wandering
These marriages are not legal, they are performed in the FLDS church. Only the man's first wife is legal. It was reported tonight that the younger children do not have birth certificates. [/*]

So, it's ok for them to have sex w/ a 16 year old if they have a license ?

juliekan

04-18-2008, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by evalles

So, it's ok for them to have sex w/ a 16 year old if they have a license ? [/*]
First wife, 16 or older, can marry under Texas law. Second wife, no such thing, illegal whatever age.

Details

04-18-2008, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by evalles
Because that would have made too much sense. [/*]Because the mothers may well be part or all of the problem. Because their own beds may be traumatizing to them. Because the men could come back at any time. Because the infrastructure, the people to help them, are not at the compound.

evalles

04-18-2008, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by Details
Because the mothers may well be part or all of the problem. Because their own beds may be traumatizing to them. Because the men could come back at any time. Because the infrastructure, the people to help them, are not at the compound. [/*]

They invited the "infastructure" to stay and make sure the men didn't come back.

Is there any evidence whatsoever that children are molested before they reach their teens ? If not, what is the possible imminent risk to a child under 12 or 13 ?

wandering

04-18-2008, 01:45 AM

It's a nightmare. The women and children are more or less warehoused. The dining room looks like my breakroom at work.

These men should be put in prison.

evalles

04-18-2008, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

First wife, 16 or older, can marry under Texas law. Second wife, no such thing, illegal whatever age. [/*]

But a grown man can have sex with a 16 year old, if she's his 1st wife and it's not abuse because he has a valid license ?

evalles

04-18-2008, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by wandering
It's a nightmare. The women and children are more or less warehoused. The dining room looks like my breakroom at work.

These men should be put in prison. [/*]

Still better than a group home for troubled boys.
I agree, the men that have slept with minors should be in prison.
The children should be home with their mothers and there should be some experts sent in to deprogram them.

wandering

04-18-2008, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by evalles

Still better than a group home for troubled boys.
I agree, the men that have slept with minors should be in prison.
The children should be home with their mothers and there should be some experts sent in to deprogram them. [/*]There was also mental and physical abuse. :read:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/17/lkl.01.html

walton

04-18-2008, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by evalles

They invited the "infastructure" to stay and make sure the men didn't come back.

Is there any evidence whatsoever that children are molested before they reach their teens ? If not, what is the possible imminent risk to a child under 12 or 13 ? [/*]

monkey see monkey do.

Learned behaviour.

Holding a baby under water to teach it to fear the father.

Seeing big sister marry uncle so and so.

Calling your sister mother.

There was a case just recently ( I could find the link but please don't make me) that a man married his step daughter and they had a child together. The man that she knew as her father was also her husband. She begged the Judge to please let this man go as he was a good husband and a good father. He got 45 days. Yup, 45 days.

Young boys having to work doing construction jobs.

No education after the 8th grade.

No future.

witchy1

04-18-2008, 01:59 AM

Didn't you have a link to the young man who reported that he was sexually abused by Warren Jeffs?

juliekan

04-18-2008, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by evalles

But a grown man can have sex with a 16 year old, if she's his 1st wife and it's not abuse because he has a valid license ? [/*]
In Texas the legal age to get married is 16 with parental consent and a legal marriage license...like anyone's parents in this group would complain!! They're tickled to death to get an old woman of 16 with parental consent since it's legal. Unlike the 13 year olds they "marry" off.

walton

04-18-2008, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by witchy1
Didn't you have a link to the young man who reported that he was sexually abused by Warren Jeffs? [/*]

http://www.childbrides.org/sex_KSL_family_members_accuse_Warren_of_abusing_ch ildren.html

Last year Brent Jeffs went to court and launched a growing cascade of legal problems for his uncle, FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs.

Brent Jeffs, Warren Jeffs' Nephew: "I'm suing him for sexually sodomizing me when I was a little kid."

Brent's father, Ward, is Warren Jeffs' half-brother.

Ward Jeffs: "We want the man stopped."

They say the abuse went on for many years in the compound at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon. It used to be the FLDS Salt Lake headquarters. The building housed the church school where Warren Jeffs allegedly preyed on victims as young as five or six.

Brent Jeffs: "Him saying, 'You do exactly what I say or you're going to burn in Hell.' SO he put the fear of burning in Hell in me if I do not do what he says."

spirit07

04-18-2008, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by witchy1
Didn't you have a link to the young man who reported that he was sexually abused by Warren Jeffs? [/*]

I just read that today in an article also.

(oops, I see someone just posted the link before my post)

evalles

04-18-2008, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by wandering
There was also mental and physical abuse. :read:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/17/lkl.01.html [/*]

They always allege mental and physical abuse. Because they say it doesn't make it so, we need details. Some people think a spanking is physical abuse and some feels it's discipline.

witchy1

04-18-2008, 02:14 AM

Walton, do you know if this has ever been to court yet?

walton

04-18-2008, 02:29 AM

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/bustupinbountiful/

The vehicle is stopped, its two occupants detained. Thirty-two-year-old Seth Jeffs is arrested for solicitation of a male prostitute. Nathaniel Steed Allred, twenty-seven, is arrested for prostitution when he admits that he had been paid $5,000 by Seth Jeffs for sexual services. Hidden inside the van police find a box containing $140,000 in cash, cell phones, $7,000 in prepaid credit cards. They also find a donation jar labeled 'Pennys For the Prophet.'

This is Warrens brother and nephew. If I remember right Seth got thrown in jail for a bit and I think made some kinda deal.

And I think Allred got thrown to the wolves so to speak. He is probably singing those Barlow Brother Blues.

I'll check for a link.

evalles

04-18-2008, 02:30 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by juliekan

In Texas the legal age to get married is 16 with parental consent and a legal marriage license...like anyone's parents in this group would complain!! They're tickled to death to get an old woman of 16 with parental consent since it's legal. Unlike the 13 year olds they "marry" off. [/*][/QUOT

The thing is, it's wrong for an adult to have sex w/ a 16 yr old and most states allow it, with parental consent. How, then can they call it abuse, only if there's not a license ?
Why isn't anybody complaining about these dumb laws that allow grown men to marry 16 yr olds. IMO, it's hypocrisy.

walton

04-18-2008, 02:33 AM

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy626.html

Seven young men have partially settled lawsuits that led to the state’s takeover of a property trust once overseen by polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs.

The agreement resolves claims against the United Effort Plan Trust, which has been under court oversight since May 2005, in a deal that includes land, an assistance fund and attorney fees.

The settlements, which still need court approval, give each plaintiff title to a 3-acre, undeveloped lot near a community park in Maxwell Canyon. The canyon is located in Hildale, which along with Colorado City, Ariz., is home to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The six men who sued alleged they were “systematically” driven out of the community by the church and Jeffs; the seventh alleged he was sexually abused by Jeffs about 20 years ago.

The six plaintiffs are Richard Jessop Ream, 25; Thomas Samuel Steed, 21; Don R. Fischer, 22; Dean J. Barlow, 22; Walter S. Fischer, 24, and Richard Gilbert, 22. The man claiming sexual abuse is Brent Jeffs, 24.

evalles

04-18-2008, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by walton

monkey see monkey do.

Learned behaviour.

Holding a baby under water to teach it to fear the father.

Seeing big sister marry uncle so and so.

Calling your sister mother.

There was a case just recently ( I could find the link but please don't make me) that a man married his step daughter and they had a child together. The man that she knew as her father was also her husband. She begged the Judge to please let this man go as he was a good husband and a good father. He got 45 days. Yup, 45 days.

Young boys having to work doing construction jobs.

No education after the 8th grade.

No future. [/*]

There was a case just recently ( I could find the link but please don't make me) that a man married his step daughter and they had a child together.

Was that at this ranch ? Gross.
I think there were other, better options.

Holding a baby under water to teach it to fear the father

This accusation was made against 1 man on the ranch, not every father.
We all have our own biases,one of mine is excessive govt interference.

walton

04-18-2008, 02:58 AM

Hey you guys look at this: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-08-07/news/eyes-wide-shut/

A two-page synopsis outlines how Barlow molested five of his daughters from the time they were as young as 12 until they were about 19 years old. Barlow would go into their bedrooms, remove their clothing and rub their breasts. With three of the victims, he touched their vaginas. He repeatedly had several of the daughters massage his penis. The events occurred "many, many times," according to the victims' statements in the report.

State sentencing guidelines suggest a five-year prison sentence. Ekstrom -- despite describing Barlow's crimes as "pretty depraved" -- recommended a sentence of 120 days in county jail, plus probation. He admits that the wishes of the community, including the victims, played a significant role in the sweetheart deal.

Yet even that sentence was too harsh for the Mohave County Superior Court.

Judge Richard Weiss sentenced Dan Barlow Jr. -- a sex offender who had molested his daughters repeatedly over a 10-year period while fantasizing that they were the additional spouses he could not attain in his fundamentalist Mormon society -- to time served plus seven years' probation.

Total county jail time for the son of the polygamous Colorado City mayor: 13 days.

witchy1

04-18-2008, 03:06 AM

That is just disgusting.

juliekan

04-18-2008, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by walton
Hey you guys look at this: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-08-07/news/eyes-wide-shut/

A two-page synopsis outlines how Barlow molested five of his daughters from the time they were as young as 12 until they were about 19 years old. Barlow would go into their bedrooms, remove their clothing and rub their breasts. With three of the victims, he touched their vaginas. He repeatedly had several of the daughters massage his penis. The events occurred "many, many times," according to the victims' statements in the report.

State sentencing guidelines suggest a five-year prison sentence. Ekstrom -- despite describing Barlow's crimes as "pretty depraved" -- recommended a sentence of 120 days in county jail, plus probation. He admits that the wishes of the community, including the victims, played a significant role in the sweetheart deal.

Yet even that sentence was too harsh for the Mohave County Superior Court.

Judge Richard Weiss sentenced Dan Barlow Jr. -- a sex offender who had molested his daughters repeatedly over a 10-year period while fantasizing that they were the additional spouses he could not attain in his fundamentalist Mormon society -- to time served plus seven years' probation.

Total county jail time for the son of the polygamous Colorado City mayor: 13 days. [/*]
And 4 of the 5 girls asked for leniency for Mr. Barlow...wonder what became of that 5th girl?
WOW what an article.

wandering

04-18-2008, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by evalles

They always allege mental and physical abuse. Because they say it doesn't make it so, we need details. Some people think a spanking is physical abuse and some feels it's discipline. [/*]You didn't read it. :(

juliekan

04-18-2008, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by wandering
You didn't read it. :( [/*]
I Agree. :confused:

wandering

04-18-2008, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by walton
Hey you guys look at this: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-08-07/news/eyes-wide-shut/

A two-page synopsis outlines how Barlow molested five of his daughters from the time they were as young as 12 until they were about 19 years old. Barlow would go into their bedrooms, remove their clothing and rub their breasts. With three of the victims, he touched their vaginas. He repeatedly had several of the daughters massage his penis. The events occurred "many, many times," according to the victims' statements in the report.

State sentencing guidelines suggest a five-year prison sentence. Ekstrom -- despite describing Barlow's crimes as "pretty depraved" -- recommended a sentence of 120 days in county jail, plus probation. He admits that the wishes of the community, including the victims, played a significant role in the sweetheart deal.

Yet even that sentence was too harsh for the Mohave County Superior Court.

Judge Richard Weiss sentenced Dan Barlow Jr. -- a sex offender who had molested his daughters repeatedly over a 10-year period while fantasizing that they were the additional spouses he could not attain in his fundamentalist Mormon society -- to time served plus seven years' probation.

Total county jail time for the son of the polygamous Colorado City mayor: 13 days. [/*]The cops are probably polygamists, and perhaps the judge. I wouldn't be surprised.

walton

04-18-2008, 03:20 AM

But did you notice the name?

witchy1

04-18-2008, 03:23 AM

Yes.

juliekan

04-18-2008, 03:24 AM

Originally posted by walton
But did you notice the name? [/*]
uuuuuhhhhh...Barlow....Sr. ?:D

juliekan

04-18-2008, 03:31 AM

Hey Walton remember I asked why the boys were removed from the ranch?
www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/17/polygamy.custody/index.html
"I believe the boys are groomed to be perpetrators."
Sounds a little weak re: removal from the ranch.:shrug:

lotty

04-18-2008, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by juliekan

uuuuuhhhhh...Barlow....Sr. ?:D [/*]

rotflmao :biggrin:

Freebird

04-18-2008, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by tisamystery

Did you notice one room had a three-tiered bunk bed? [/*]

I know of one family with same-sex quads.They have all 4 crammed in 1 bedroom(2 pairs of bunks).

LLaFren

04-18-2008, 06:24 AM

So that we can keep up better with the changes each day brings.:D

giddyupalw

04-18-2008, 06:29 AM

Originally posted by LLaFren
So that we can keep up better with the changes each day brings.:D [/*]

Great idea!!! :seeya:

Justice_Dawg

04-18-2008, 07:55 AM

State says FLDS beliefs turn girls into sex-assault victims
By Brooke Adams and Kristen Moulton
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/18/2008 03:07:12 AM MDT

SAN ANGELO, Texas - A child abuse investigator who led the initial foray into a polygamous sect's west Texas ranch said Thursday that children are not safe there because their parents have a belief system that "turns boys into perpetrators and girls into sexual assault victims."

http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_8969119

Miss Behavin

04-18-2008, 09:49 AM

What a great idea! A daily thread!!!

Way too many threads and it's starting to get incredibly confusing - to me anyway!

I couldn't stay awake any longer last night, so I'm curious about how the court proceedings ended yesterday. Anybody have any updates?
TIA

StickyBeak

04-18-2008, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by LLaFren
So that we can keep up better with the changes each day brings.:D [/*]

TY LLAFren, :seeya:

Jumping all over the threads, Good Idea for sure.

I heard on MSNBC this am that investigators saw girls obviously pregnant at the compound who were very young. One of the reasons, even without Sarah, they are convinced the children are in harms way. I wish they could locate "The Sarah", and quell the hoax speculation, JMO

StickyBeak

04-18-2008, 10:08 AM

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/investigator-says-girls-pregnant-in/n20080418050609990005?ecid=RSS0001

AP
Posted: 2008-04-18 05:06:27
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - After hours of lawyers popping up with similar objections and questions, a custody hearing for 416 children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused: A child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/18/polygamy.fri/index.html

Investigation shifting to Colorado, one woman arrested for false police report.

Court resumes this morning (friday), children to remain under guardianship of the great state of Texas. IIRC

barf

lotty

04-18-2008, 10:52 AM

Good morning everyone.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/flds-hearing-lurches-through-11-hours-of-in-san/

Home › News › Eldorado, TX FLDS
FLDS hearing lurches through 11 hours of uncertainty in San Angelo courtroom

Girls at the YFZ Ranch were forced into marriage and gave birth as young as 13, a Child Protective Services investigator testified in perhaps the most groundbreaking moment of a sometimes-dramatic but mainly tedious opening to the state's largest custody hearing.

Roux

04-18-2008, 11:26 AM

Thanks for a daily thread! I was going crazy yesterday trying to read and post on the different threads. This will be much easier...for me at least.

lotty

04-18-2008, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Roux
Thanks for a daily thread! I was going crazy yesterday trying to read and post on the different threads. This will be much easier...for me at least. [/*]

Ditto
:beer:

lotty

04-18-2008, 11:47 AM

Donations for the FLDS women & children in Eldorado, Texas raid

http://pluralwife.blogspot.com/

IMO Something I hadn't thought about...I thought the FLDS Church would take care of everything financially speaking. I also thought I heard on NG that five of the mothers have a legal aid attorney, I wonder if those five are the ones in the shelter or five from the Ranch? IMO

Roux

04-18-2008, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by lotty
Donations for the FLDS women & children in Eldorado, Texas raid

http://pluralwife.blogspot.com/

IMO Something I hadn't thought about...I thought the FLDS Church would take care of everything financially speaking. I also thought I heard on NG that five of the mothers have a legal aid attorney, I wonder if those five are the ones in the shelter or five from the Ranch? IMO [/*]
One of the attorneys on LK last night was from Legal Aid. I thought at the time that with all the money they have received from the govt contracts and welfare fraud that TX should put a lien on their property to cover some of the costs of these proceedings. But of course the five who elected not to go back should receive legal aid.

walton

04-18-2008, 12:22 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8927979

Batchelor, director of Principle Voices, a Salt Lake City-based education and advocacy organization for polygamous families, said there has been an outpouring of support for the FLDS children since an April 1 raid in Eldorado, Texas, by authorities investigating possible abuse.
She told a crowd of about 100 people gathered at the City-County Building in downtown Salt Lake City that the group has collected letters of comfort from children, toys, baby items, CDs and cassette tapes with LDS hymns and books to send to Texas. Donors also have contributed television sets, Batchelor said.
Heidi Foster, a member of the polygamous Kingston clan, said the group has collected more than $4,000 in cash donations. She said her heart "just warms" when reading letters from children and plural wives in Utah that tell their counterparts in Texas that they have their support.

A little something everyone should know. Heidi Foster is part of the Kingston clan.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy383.html

Our family believes in the principle of personal choice," said Kingston, who is believed to have 14 wives with more than 100 children. He is under a no-contact order and cannot see any of his children with Mattingly.

After Friday's hearing, Mattingly said the decision to give up her two eldest daughters left her feeling "like we've had two deaths in the family." But, she said, "it's better to let them move on."

walton

04-18-2008, 12:27 PM

:seeya: Good day everyone.

k... now tell me how this whole daily thread thing works.

Do I make all posts here? including all links? and then proceed to flap my jaw on other threads? Or do I just post links from todays news on this thread and older links on other threads?

oh man the pressures I am under.....:eek:

tisamystery

04-18-2008, 12:30 PM

Daily threads are more of a "stream of consciousness" thing. Rather than bounce around from thread to thread, anything that has to do with the case can be discussed here.

This particular thread begins with a lot of links but that's unusual and doesn't represent it's only function.

So, go for it, Watlon . . . flap away!

lotty

04-18-2008, 12:31 PM

<respectfully snipped>
Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8927979

She told a crowd of about 100 people gathered at the City-County Building in downtown Salt Lake City that the group has collected letters of comfort from children, toys, baby items, CDs and cassette tapes with LDS hymns and books to send to Texas. Donors also have contributed television sets, Batchelor said.
[/*]

IMO So who will be receiving all of the items that FLDS won't use?

"collected letters of comfort from children, toys, baby items, CDs and cassette tapes with LDS hymns and books to send to Texas. Donors also have contributed television sets, Batchelor said. "

walton

04-18-2008, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery
Daily threads are more of a "stream of consciousness" thing. Rather than bounce around from thread to thread, anything that has to do with the case can be discussed here.

This particular thread begins with a lot of links but that's unusual and doesn't represent it's only function.

So, go for it, Watlon . . . flap away! [/*]

:D Yippeee as you know I have been use to just being on one thread, but heck look at all the stuff.

Thanks.

walton

04-18-2008, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by lotty
<respectfully snipped>

IMO So who will be receiving all of the items that FLDS won't use?

"collected letters of comfort from children, toys, baby items, CDs and cassette tapes with LDS hymns and books to send to Texas. Donors also have contributed television sets, Batchelor said. " [/*]

I would hope that the kids in Texas. But how many of those kids would get to use those item. The donations were given I am sure by people with good intentions.

Mary and Heidi know the rules of the FLDS. There are going to be some restrictions.

IMO anyone wanting to make donations should check the State of Texas website and ask them what they could use.

lotty

04-18-2008, 12:50 PM

I agree with you Walton, and I think the offer should be made where it is most needed. I just couldn't understand the tv thing, being listed. I would think they would say "Please don't donate items that can't be used, etc. etc. etc."

I don't know maybe I'm just too confused right now.:confused:

giddyupalw

04-18-2008, 12:51 PM

On CNN about an hour ago... I heard that they have taken DNA samples from the children!!

lotty

04-18-2008, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by giddyupalw
On CNN about an hour ago... I heard that they have taken DNA samples from the children!! [/*]

I hope that if the Mothers hearts are in the right place, their lawyers can convince them to cooperate (give a DNA sample) and really prove they want their children back. Not just demand them to be returned. IMO/JMO

wandering

04-18-2008, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by giddyupalw
On CNN about an hour ago... I heard that they have taken DNA samples from the children!! [/*]That was reported on Anderson Cooper last night. I think they need a court order to test the mothers and fathers, though.

At any rate, in the meantime they can sort out the siblings, and determine which ones have the same genes. Maybe they can test for which ones have the same fathers.

I wonder if they need court approval to do that testing?

Rainkiss

04-18-2008, 01:14 PM

Really, at this point, I'm thinking the mothers, at least, should have to submit to the testing if they want their children back, since, at this point, they've got some credibility issues... Apparently, none of the children under 4 years old even have birth certificates? (Which makes me wonder if they have real SSN's, and also if there's some welfare fraud going on... Can you get a SSN without a birth certificate?)

I wonder if their welfare benefits will be reexamined while all this is going on? Can't see the state paying their support on welfare to the single mothers if they're in the custody of the state...

lotty

04-18-2008, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Really, at this point, I'm thinking the mothers, at least, should have to submit to the testing if they want their children back, since, at this point, they've got some credibility issues... Apparently, none of the children under 4 years old even have birth certificates? (Which makes me wonder if they have real SSN's, and also if there's some welfare fraud going on... Can you get a SSN without a birth certificate?)

I wonder if their welfare benefits will be reexamined while all this is going on? Can't see the state paying their support on welfare to the single mothers if they're in the custody of the state... [/*]

As far as I have read...there has been no welfare in Texas. It is the CC/Hildale area. IMO/JMO

juliekan

04-18-2008, 01:24 PM

www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/
Hearing Log states that the 6 women that opted to go to the safe house, promptly left.

walton

04-18-2008, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Aame
If they aren't willing to be tested, then they don't even need to think about getting them back. jmo [/*]

I don't know how legally the State of Texas could hand them over without some type of legal document.

lotty

04-18-2008, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by walton

I don't know how legally the State of Texas could hand them over without some type of legal document. [/*]

IMO proof of paternity or legal guardianship...otherwise the courts could turn juveniles loose at whim...or hand them out to anyone. I would think. IMO

Roux

04-18-2008, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by lotty

IMO proof of paternity or legal guardianship...otherwise the courts could turn juveniles loose at whim...or hand them out to anyone. I would think. IMO [/*]
If these people truly wanted their children back wouldn't they cooperate and do everything they could to establish their relationships? Instead they obfuscate, lie, evade and do nothing to assist. That tells a lot about them, IMO.

lotty

04-18-2008, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Roux

If these people truly wanted their children back wouldn't they cooperate and do everything they could to establish their relationships? Instead they obfuscate, lie, evade and do nothing to assist. That tells a lot about them, IMO. [/*]

IMO I can't speak for them. I would do anything to have my children back, if they were taken by anyone.:seeya:

walton

04-18-2008, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by lotty
I agree with you Walton, and I think the offer should be made where it is most needed. I just couldn't understand the tv thing, being listed. I would think they would say "Please don't donate items that can't be used, etc. etc. etc."

I don't know maybe I'm just too confused right now.:confused: [/*]

I had contacted these people when this all first happened and asked if they needed anything. The man I talked to told me that they were ok and to watch the local papers. I have been in contact with some of the locals there and they said that they were doing ok.

Here is a link to the State Web site: http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-18_Eldorado.asp#q3

What if I want to donate a household item, toys, etc.?
The child welfare system is always in need of donations to support children who are placed in the state’s care.

Although we are not in need of additional items donated specifically for the situation in Eldorado, we do encourage you to donate to your local emergency resource rooms and other local non-profit support organizations. These groups play a vital role in ensuring that children’s needs are met. The groups provide support in the form of household items for foster homes, toys and games for the children, transport items for caseworkers, etc. If you would like to donate locally and you do not know who to contact, you may contact us for suggestions: communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us.

lotty

04-18-2008, 01:46 PM

Thanks Walton...a great idea. It is always good to help out with any bad situation. A great reminder to help our own locals.

lotty

04-18-2008, 01:51 PM

Which brings me to another thought I had. IMO The outside world may be evil in the minds of the FLDS. I hope they can see the generosity poured on their children, by the volunteers and attorneys. In my mind what a statement of how many good people are in this country. As always IMO/JMO:patriot:

walton

04-18-2008, 01:52 PM

http://www.xmission.com/~plporter/lds/kingston.htm

The "organization, as insiders refer to it, has maintained a remarkably low profile in Utah at the same time it has built a financial empire that ranks it among Utah's most sizable corporations. Various reports have estimated the Kingston holdings at $150 million to $170 million.

But one source intimately familiar with the Kingston organization's inner workings - and who asked to remain unnamed out of fear of reprisals from the family - says an oft-published $170 million figure is laughably low.

fizzle

04-18-2008, 01:58 PM

It is really bothering me that only the mothers are showing up for court. Where are the men? Don't they care about the children? Don't they know what's going on?

No need to answer really, I already know....it's just bothering me that people are saying that they have no proof that anything illegal has occurred, no proof that abuse has occurred, no proof that pedophelia/rape has occurred, but they aren't even questioning where the men are. The men that are accused of all these things are apparently to cowardly to even show up. That smacks of guilt to me.

awareness

04-18-2008, 01:58 PM

Where did the 6 mothers from the safe house go? back to YFZ?

I heard on the radio yesterday that some of the children/teens who were put in CPS's care know who the "Sarah" who called was. That's all the report said though...

JMO/IMO

Lyndawitha"Y

04-18-2008, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by fizzle
It is really bothering me that only the mothers are showing up for court. Where are the men? Don't they care about the children? Don't they know what's going on?

No need to answer really, I already know....it's just bothering me that people are saying that they have no proof that anything illegal has occurred, no proof that abuse has occurred, no proof that pedophelia/rape has occurred, but they aren't even questioning where the men are. The men that are accused of all these things are apparently to cowardly to even show up. That smacks of guilt to me. [/*]

I certainly learned alot about this religious sect from the Warren Jeff's trial. It became very clear to me that females are nothing more than "Chattle"..and the hierarchy of this life style is governed by a handful of "Holier than Thou" Dictators!.. The claim religious freedom to do as they wish, yet want to collect money's from the outside world. I did hear someone claim there could very well be charges of fraud in the manner of claiming huge amounts of money from the system!

These people can live separate from the rest of society, no probs for me, but when breaking the laws of the land and exploiting children to populate their GROUP..and the mind control of their subjects sicken me.

Brainwashing, mind control and isolating their women and children from learning about freedom of thought and life, truly boggles my mind.

LMS:seeya: :seeya:

lotty

04-18-2008, 02:27 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

HEARING LOG

Standard-Times reporter Trish Choate files live updates from the FLDS child custody proceedings in the 51st District Court from the remote location at the City Auditorium. The hearing started Thursday and resumed shortly after 9:45 a.m. today.

11:38 - A parents' attorney says to the psychiatrist: How can a 6-month-old child be influenced in any way by the fact that someone a few hundred yards from them is a pregnant 16-year-old?

The psychiatrist says he didn't say that, but he offers the opinion that the children should stay with the state until officials figure out what's best for them.

"Doctor, haven't you said in writing and in your research determined that a child develops 90 percent of his brain in his first three years?" the parents' attorney says.

The psychiatrist says he probably wrote that the brain grows to 90 percent of its size by age 3.

The attorney reads off a few sentences a bit dramatically and almost angrily. Then he asks the doctor whether he wrote it.

"Maybe, but not in that tone of voice," the psychiatrist says.

Observers laugh.

evalles

04-18-2008, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Really, at this point, I'm thinking the mothers, at least, should have to submit to the testing if they want their children back, since, at this point, they've got some credibility issues... Apparently, none of the children under 4 years old even have birth certificates? (Which makes me wonder if they have real SSN's, and also if there's some welfare fraud going on... Can you get a SSN without a birth certificate?)

I wonder if their welfare benefits will be reexamined while all this is going on? Can't see the state paying their support on welfare to the single mothers if they're in the custody of the state... [/*]

How are they getting welfare for children that have no birth certificates ? Common sense tells you, that if there's no proof of their existence, they're not receiving any $$.

evalles

04-18-2008, 02:41 PM

walton

04-18-2008, 02:42 PM

11:24 a.m. - The psychiatrist says that FLDS members who leave the group are "highly vulnerable" to people who would exploit them because of their upbringing.

It's because they're behind in their decision-making capabilities - they haven't matured, he says.

He testifies that he asked three of the "young women" whether they would allow him to take their pulse, but told them that he didn't have to - it was up to them. They appeared to be flummoxed by having to make a choice, he says.

:(

If they struggled with this, can you imagine the turmoil they must face when they get to "choose" if they "want" to get married to the old man living down the hall?

:mad:

tisamystery

04-18-2008, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by walton
11:24 a.m. - The psychiatrist says that FLDS members who leave the group are "highly vulnerable" to people who would exploit them because of their upbringing.

It's because they're behind in their decision-making capabilities - they haven't matured, he says.

He testifies that he asked three of the "young women" whether they would allow him to take their pulse, but told them that he didn't have to - it was up to them. They appeared to be flummoxed by having to make a choice, he says.

:(

If they struggled with this, can you imagine the turmoil they must face when they get to "choose" if they "want" to get married to the old man living down the hall?

:mad: [/*]

Wouldn't it be sad to think that, for these young women, the concept that they have any say whatsoever as to what is done with their bodies is totally foreign? Perhaps no one has ever asked them to "allow" anything.

lotty

04-18-2008, 02:59 PM

IMO/JMO...The path of least resistence...provides the best known outcome. Can you imagine? I can't. IMO/JMO

Walton a little O/T you have a post about the LeBarons on another thread. Just thinking of them scares the bejeepers out of me.:chicken:

evalles

04-18-2008, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by wandering
You didn't read it. :( [/*]

I didn't see it last night, I will read it after work.

walton

04-18-2008, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by lotty
IMO/JMO...The path of least resistence...provides the best known outcome. Can you imagine? I can't. IMO/JMO

Walton a little O/T you have a post about the LeBarons on another thread. Just thinking of them scares the bejeepers out of me.:chicken: [/*]

yeah me too. I remember when I first read that story. I lost my spit. I know my jaw hit the floor and it stayed there page after page.

lotty

04-18-2008, 03:14 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/
HEARING LOG

Standard-Times reporters Trish Choate and Matt Phinney file live updates from the FLDS child custody proceedings in the 51st District Court from the remote location at the City Auditorium, and reporter Sandy Rojas reports from outside the courthouse. The hearing started Thursday and resumed shortly after 9:45 a.m. today.

12:26 p.m. - Judge Walther's staff tells the room that the judge is breaking for lunch, and court will resume at 1 p.m. The staff member also says the judge still intends to end testimony at 4 p.m. but reserves the right to change that intention.

One of the FLDS sect men leaving the courthouse at noon, asked how it is going, responds, "I'm smiling."

Asked how he thinks things will go, "I don't know yet."

lotty

04-18-2008, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by walton

yeah me too. I remember when I first read that story. I lost my spit. I know my jaw hit the floor and it stayed there page after page. [/*]

Ditto

walton

04-18-2008, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by essiemadge
walton, do you know that you are OUR HERO
could the woman arrested for false reports of abuse be the same woman who called the texas authorities? if so, would the warrant to go into the compound be illegal?
poor lady, i bet she was just so frustrated that nothing was being done.
i am still amazed that the mormon women in utah are not doing anything to help the women and children in these compounds. [/*]

Oh my heck, essie where have you been? I've kept you in my thoughts and prayers.

Grammy is here, texski floats in and out, haven't seen Tex-SE since the raid I don't think.

Essie do you see all these people? So many people wanting to help.

I've seen Rick Ross on the Nancy Grace show, Mike Watkis, Sam Brower, Sheriff Doran, Texas Rangers so very many people.

Do I think that the lady they arrested made the call? Do you suppose it was just a lucky guess on her part that she came up with the name Sara?

essie I am no hero- I am what I am.

:rose: For you essie

Rainkiss

04-18-2008, 03:32 PM

Interesting tidbit...

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy831.html

"But neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch - scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse - has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said.

In Schleicher County, records reflect the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, has not requested an exemption from property taxes as a religious organization, an option for qualifying property.

The YFZ Ranch's property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District.

The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded. So far, answers are scant. "

All this howling about the government searching a church... and it's not registered as a church at all.

walton

04-18-2008, 03:37 PM

Crazy isn't it?

And almost funny.

When Warren got caught in Nevada, the reason the trooper pulled him over was because he couldn't see his tags.

lotty

04-18-2008, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Interesting tidbit...

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy831.html

All this howling about the government searching a church... and it's not registered as a church at all. [/*]

Mmmmhmmmm...that's because it is a corporate retreat...uh...wait no it's not.

:beer:

Rainkiss

04-18-2008, 03:51 PM

Interesting article:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy822.html

Written by a man who was raised in a cult, on his take on what these kids will be going through. Very interesting reading.

Details

04-18-2008, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Freebird
I know of one family with same-sex quads.They have all 4 crammed in 1 bedroom(2 pairs of bunks). [/*]I know of a family with 4 girls from 12-18 years old - not twins or anything - all in one bedroom with two bunk beds - and you'd never have a problem knowing which bunk belonged to who, nor that it was girls, not boys, living in that room. But a 3 tier bunk bed - that's so little space to be in - it's not the number in the room, it's the 3 tiers that really seems so horrible. It's just a very claustrophobic place to sleep.

Did you see the 3 tier bunk? There's enough room to lay down, you'd have to crawl a little to get in and out - even a very short child could not sit on that bed.

Details

04-18-2008, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by evalles
I didn't see it last night, I will read it after work. [/*]But you're willing to smear the victims with "They always allege mental and physical abuse" and junk about how maybe they thought a spanking was abuse? Without even bothering to read?

You've had your troubles with CPS. That doesn't make every abused kid a liar, doesn't make every CPS worker a bad person. Yeesh! Most abused kids are telling the truth - they don't just "always allege". Most CPS workers are good people working hard to try to do the right thing - by a long shot!

Details

04-18-2008, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Rainkiss
Interesting article:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy822.html

Written by a man who was raised in a cult, on his take on what these kids will be going through. Very interesting reading. [/*]I like the last words on that - get an education, and also her idea on working with the child-soldiers of Africa - learn that even with the abuse you suffered, there are those that are worse - it helps to gain balance, and learn that you do have a better life than you think you do. Being raised in a cult can be overcome.

tisamystery

04-18-2008, 04:09 PM

What's this about a woman being charged with making the phone call? Did I miss something?

juliekan

04-18-2008, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery
What's this about a woman being charged with making the phone call? Did I miss something? [/*]
www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143695271689,00.html
Is arrest of Rozita Swinton tied to FLDS raid, phone calls?

Someone in FLDS is just stirring up s*** JMO

lotty

04-18-2008, 04:33 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/
HEARING LOG

Standard-Times reporters Trish Choate and Matt Phinney file live updates from the FLDS child custody proceedings in the 51st District Court from the remote location at the City Auditorium, and reporter Sandy Rojas reports from outside the courthouse. The hearing started Thursday and resumed shortly after 9:45 a.m. today.

1:43 p.m. - A passing group of five Girl Scouts stops on the courthouse lawn to talk to a Tom Green County deputy.

1:28 p.m. - Court is back in session.

An attorney who represents multiple mothers begins talking about not having much access to her clients. She is asking that clients be given cell phones so they can contact them, and she wants access to the coliseum, where the children are housed. The women don't have an opportunity to know what's going on in the courtroom. She says there are women with medical issues.

walton

04-18-2008, 04:36 PM

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3110412

There's been a lot of mothers who have changed their names, their dates of birth; and children seem to have been passed around among all the mothers," said Pat DeVeau, attorney for an FLDS child.

Thelma Clardy, also an FLDS child's attorney, said, "Maybe they know who their father is and maybe they don't; and then they say, 'Well, I can only tell you what the prophet tells me.'"

Meanwhile, Texas Gov.Rick Perry's office says it has not received any letter from FLDS mothers. The mothers say they mailed the letter last Saturday asking the governor tour the shelter where the children were being held and the ranch where they live and determine for himself the best environment for the children.

They hoped to set up a meeting with Perry before court hearings on the children's custody status began yesterday.

Blame the mail man? or say it isn't so..... they lied?

walton

04-18-2008, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by lotty

Mmmmhmmmm...that's because it is a corporate retreat...uh...wait no it's not.

:beer: [/*]

I wonder how the rest of the compounds are registered?

juliekan

04-18-2008, 04:39 PM

Shepard Smith: texas rangers went to Colorado to question Swinton. She made a call several years ago stating she was a 13 year old girl trapped in a basement. New case's info is sealed.

Rainkiss

04-18-2008, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by tisamystery
What's this about a woman being charged with making the phone call? Did I miss something? [/*]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/18/polygamy.fri/index.html

The Colorado Springs police statement said its officers charged 33-year-old Rozita Swinton with false reporting to authorities, a misdemeanor. The charge relates to an incident in Colorado Springs in February, but documents related to the case have been sealed "so details of that case cannot be discussed," the Colorado Springs police statement said.

juliekan

04-18-2008, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by juliekan

www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143695271689,00.html
Is arrest of Rozita Swinton tied to FLDS raid, phone calls?

Someone in FLDS is just stirring up s*** JMO [/*]

Wasn't the call in Texas recorded? Will phone records show which cell phone tower the call went through?

lotty

04-18-2008, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by walton

I wonder how the rest of the compounds are registered? [/*]

Mancos, CO was supposed to be a "corporate retreat or hunting something or other. Guess what it's not. Sort of a mini version of Eldorado without the "temple." Pringle, SD...I haven't seen enough photos...looks like a prison from what I can tell JMO.

Sarcasm alert: :eek: Say it ain't so...you mean they aren't always truthful?

walton

04-18-2008, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by juliekan

Wasn't the call in Texas recorded? Will phone records show which cell phone tower the call went through? [/*]

She may have been the one to call Flora but she couldn't be the one to have called the Abuse hot line in Texas.

The girl that called Texas used the name Sara. How many Saras did they find on documents, others said that Sara was there and left. Obvious that this caller either was Sara or knew that there might be a Sara there.

How would this girl know that there was a Sara? She couldn't.

juliekan

04-18-2008, 04:49 PM

good point

walton

04-18-2008, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by lotty

Mancos, CO was supposed to be a "corporate retreat or hunting something or other. Guess what it's not. Sort of a mini version of Eldorado without the "temple." Pringle, SD...I haven't seen enough photos...looks like a prison from what I can tell JMO.

Sarcasm alert: :eek: Say it ain't so...you mean they aren't always truthful? [/*]

I'd like to know about this woman with the last name Keate. What was she doing visiting Warren before the raid?

And wouldn't you know her name is supposedly on the list that signed this letter to Govenor Perry.

Details

04-18-2008, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by walton
She may have been the one to call Flora but she couldn't be the one to have called the Abuse hot line in Texas.

The girl that called Texas used the name Sara. How many Saras did they find on documents, others said that Sara was there and left. Obvious that this caller either was Sara or knew that there might be a Sara there.

How would this girl know that there was a Sara? She couldn't. [/*]Sarah is a very common name - a fake caller who knew just a little about the cult could have made it up. I also think a real caller who maybe was reluctant might have lied about her name. They found several Sarah's at the compound who were close to the description given.

I'm sure the real 'Sarah' - whoever she is - is terrified now - if the cult ever finds out she betrayed them, told their secrets - she's dead - IMO.

lotty

04-18-2008, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by walton

I'd like to know about this woman with the last name Keate. What was she doing visiting Warren before the raid?

And wouldn't you know her name is supposedly on the list that signed this letter to Govenor Perry. [/*]

Really, I hadn't paid attention. Hmmm...will have to see what I can find. Another piece to the puzzle?:beer:

Carol25

04-18-2008, 04:58 PM

What about the teenage girls who were with CPS who knew Sarah and said she "had disappeared a week ago?"

Micharick

04-18-2008, 04:59 PM

Wonder why the State hasn't started foreclosure proceedings for the $1 Million Dollar Tax tax tab?

Hope nobody minds my just jumping in here. I rarely post, but have lurked for years.

walton

04-18-2008, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Micharick
Wonder why the State hasn't started foreclosure proceedings for the $1 Million Dollar Tax tax tab?

Hope nobody minds my just jumping in here. I rarely post, but have lurked for years. [/*]

I would bet money that Bruce Wissan is looking into the money trail to that compound.

Bruce Wissan is one of the good guys.

Micharick

04-18-2008, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by walton

I would bet money that Bruce Wissan is looking into the money trail to that compound.

Bruce Wissan is one of the good guys. [/*]

I say good for him. Let's do whatever it takes to (like maybe hit them in the pocketbook where it hurts) to clean out the hornets nest. I think we have only just seen the tip of the iceburg of abuse in many many forms. JMO

walton

04-18-2008, 05:12 PM

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8955144

The timing of the raid was wonderful," said Wisan, the court-appointed fiduciary overseeing the sect's communal property trust.
Wisan credits the raid, in part, with persuading more than 220 residents to suddenly sign occupancy pacts and pay their $100-a-month assessments for utilities and infrastructure upgrades. If they hadn't done so, they risked eviction from their trust-held homes.

Bruce Wissan was assigned this major task by Judge Denise Lindberg. (Another good guy/gal.)

walton

04-18-2008, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Micharick

I say good for him. Let's do whatever it takes to (like maybe hit them in the pocketbook where it hurts) to clean out the hornets nest. I think we have only just seen the tip of the iceburg of abuse in many many forms. JMO [/*]

I agree.

Another thing I would like to see come out of this is that they form a task force to look at all these cults.

Micharick

04-18-2008, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8955144

The timing of the raid was wonderful," said Wisan, the court-appointed fiduciary overseeing the sect's communal property trust.
Wisan credits the raid, in part, with persuading more than 220 residents to suddenly sign occupancy pacts and pay their $100-a-month assessments for utilities and infrastructure upgrades. If they hadn't done so, they risked eviction from their trust-held homes.

Bruce Wissan was assigned this major task by Judge Denise Lindberg. (Another good guy/gal.) [/*]

Wow. So before the raid, the Utah sect thought that would all just load up and come on over here (Texas) if they were evicted? Scary thought.

Micharick

04-18-2008, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by walton

I agree.

Another thing I would like to see come out of this is that they form a task force to look at all these cults. [/*]

Me, too, but what a monumental task that would be. and how do you decide which organizations fall under the heading of "cult"?

lotty

04-18-2008, 05:22 PM

Patricia Keate:
Visited Warren Jeffs in jail April 2 (the day before the raid.)
Patricia Keate: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270161,00.html
Signed the letter sent to Governor Perry.
Reckon Patricia Keate was the parent claiming an out of state appointment. As to why she was gone during the raid.
Patricia Keate is not on the list of parents in the public/legal notice in the Eldorado Success
IMO/JMO

Bebesc

04-18-2008, 05:25 PM

Those children need their mothers. Once again the government
got carried away. Bureaucrats do not have the end all solution - far from it

spydernweb2006

04-18-2008, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8955144

The timing of the raid was wonderful," said Wisan, the court-appointed fiduciary overseeing the sect's communal property trust.
Wisan credits the raid, in part, with persuading more than 220 residents to suddenly sign occupancy pacts and pay their $100-a-month assessments for utilities and infrastructure upgrades. If they hadn't done so, they risked eviction from their trust-held homes.

Bruce Wissan was assigned this major task by Judge Denise Lindberg. (Another good guy/gal.) [/*]

I dont know about you but I wish my ultilites and home cost only $100.00 a month!

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

Micharick

04-18-2008, 05:48 PM

Do the residents of the ranch still consider Warren Jeffs their spiritual leader? I thought I saw a photo of him hanging on the wall in one of the rooms toured by LK the other night. If so, that says a lot to me about the practices accepted as normal.

I would hope that if my spiritual leader became a convicted felon for sexual child abuse (or for aiding it), that I might reconsider my choice for leader. That is, if I didn't agree with that philosophy. :shrug:

Details

04-18-2008, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Bebesc
Those children need their mothers. Once again the government
got carried away. Bureaucrats do not have the end all solution - far from it [/*]These children need real mothers - in this case, their birth mothers are not doing that job. A real mother protects and nurtures her child. These give them away to old men, teach them it's OK for them to be molested at an early age. Let their boys be discarded with no education, no skills, no family, told they are worthless and damned.

These are not mothers. Maybe - just maybe - with some intervention by the government, they can be helped to become mothers.

A compound full of underage pregnant girls shows a serious problem - they didn't get carried away. They delayed far too long - every day they didn't respond to what we all knew was happening was another day an underage girl was molested by the men of the cult.

The 'bureaucrats' save many children from abuse, molestation and death, on a daily basis. I know two of the children that were saved from just such a fate (not FLDS - other children removed by CPS intervention) now thriving and growing up. There's a tendency to judge by the news stories that always present the bad cases - but the good cases never get reported on. You just know about them if you are part of them, to any small degree.

Zaney1

04-18-2008, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Bebesc
Those children need their mothers. Once again the government
got carried away. Bureaucrats do not have the end all solution - far from it [/*]

They don't need their mothers if their mothers have been allowing the sexual abuse of said children.

Time will tell if they need their parents or not.

lotty

04-18-2008, 06:04 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/
LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE: Day 2 of updates from FLDS custody hearing
Trish Choate

Originally published 11:00 a.m., April 18, 2008
Updated 03:56 p.m., April 18, 2008

HEARING LOG

Standard-Times reporters Trish Choate and Matt Phinney file live updates from the FLDS child custody proceedings in the 51st District Court from the remote location at the City Auditorium, and reporter Sandy Rojas reports from outside the courthouse. The hearing started Thursday and resumed shortly after 9:45 a.m. today.

The attorney asks whether the expert has heard of "lying for the Lord."

"There are times when they can be deceptive - basically, when they feel their survival is at stake," the expert says.

Roux

04-18-2008, 06:20 PM

Did they finish at 4? The judge said 4, but indicated she might go longer.

lotty

04-18-2008, 06:38 PM

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

HEARING LOG

Standard-Times reporters Trish Choate and Matt Phinney file live updates from the FLDS child custody proceedings in the 51st District Court from the remote location at the City Auditorium, and reporter Sandy Rojas reports from outside the courthouse. The hearing started Thursday and resumed shortly after 9:45 a.m. today.

3:21 p.m. - An attorney for parents objects to the line of questioning about Jeffs, noting that, "He's in jail somewhere."

It turns out that Jeffs is the father of the child the attorney is representing.

Another child's attorney asks: Isn't it true that Mr. Jeffs not only encourages marriage between older men and underage girls, but he also participates in it himself - a 40-year-old who marries underage girls?

"Obviously, we're not going to get through by 4 o'clock, but I still hope to get through by sundown," the judge says.

johnielee333

04-18-2008, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Justice_Dawg
State says FLDS beliefs turn girls into sex-assault victims
By Brooke Adams and Kristen Moulton
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/18/2008 03:07:12 AM MDT

SAN ANGELO, Texas - A child abuse investigator who led the initial foray into a polygamous sect's west Texas ranch said Thursday that children are not safe there because their parents have a belief system that "turns boys into perpetrators and girls into sexual assault victims."

http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_8969119 [/*]

:seeya: hey justice , how ya doing ? :biggrin:

Ladyhawk

04-18-2008, 07:12 PM

I have been thinking about the Babyland link, it really is bothering me, and I just have to ask if anyone has heard anything about any special needs children being in this group of 416?

johnielee333

04-18-2008, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by walton

She may have been the one to call Flora but she couldn't be the one to have called the Abuse hot line in Texas.

The girl that called Texas used the name Sara. How many Saras did they find on documents, others said that Sara was there and left. Obvious that this caller either was Sara or knew that there might be a Sara there.

How would this girl know that there was a Sara? She couldn't. [/*]

i think they found out that this sarah called & moved her to another location & put her in hinding or worse, killed her.
OR maybe the girl used a fake name & is affaid to come forward OR her name really is sarah & the state does have her but she's affaid to come forward.

lotty

04-18-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Ladyhawk
I have been thinking about the Babyland link, it really is bothering me, and I just have to ask if anyone has heard anything about any special needs children being in this group of 416? [/*]

One of the mothers said on LK the other night that her child has special needs and she was upset because he was 5yo or older and they wouldn't let her stay with him, or allow him to return to the ranch with her. I don't remember her name sorry. IMO

lotty

04-18-2008, 07:20 PM

HEARING LOG

Standard-Times reporters Trish Choate and Matt Phinney file live updates from the FLDS child custody proceedings in the 51st District Court from the remote location at the City Auditorium, and reporter Sandy Rojas reports from outside the courthouse. The hearing started Thursday and resumed shortly after 9:45 a.m. today.

"4 p.m. - The judge announces a five-minute break.

3:54 p.m. - "What's the significance of bishop's records?" an attorney says.

They can be records of births, marriages, deaths, ordinations, that sort of thing, the expert answers.

The next question is about "lost boys."

That's a term used by the outside world to refer to teen boys expelled from the community - not the FLDS, the expert says. A lot of boys reaching their teenage years begin rebelling against spending all their free time singing hymns, praying and pursuing other spiritual endeavors.

"In all honesty, there aren't a lot of 16-year-old boys that want to spend all day praying," he says.

Instead, they might want to watch television or something, the expert said. The FLDS tries to work with the boys to bring them through those issues."

IMOhammer who is this "expert?"

VC2

04-18-2008, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by walton
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3110412

There's been a lot of mothers who have changed their names, their dates of birth; and children seem to have been passed around among all the mothers," said Pat DeVeau, attorney for an FLDS child.

Thelma Clardy, also an FLDS child's attorney, said, "Maybe they know who their father is and maybe they don't; and then they say, 'Well, I can only tell you what the prophet tells me.'"

Meanwhile, Texas Gov.Rick Perry's office says it has not received any letter from FLDS mothers. The mothers say they mailed the letter last Saturday asking the governor tour the shelter where the children were being held and the ranch where they live and determine for himself the best environment for the children.

They hoped to set up a meeting with Perry before court hearings on the children's custody status began yesterday.

Blame the mail man? or say it isn't so..... they lied? [/*]

When i listened to the mother who showed cnn around, and a couple of others at times, i got the real impression that the word "mother" is used very differently in fdls.

That whomever they care for are "their" children, it does not mean that they are the birth mother. Which would make sense because how better to also weaken the bonds of a woman who might want to speak out, just give her someone elses child and vice versa.

So i sure pray that the state gets dna tests *4 reuniting any child with their supposed mother. Then again if a child is thinking of "mary" as mother wouldnt be much better off being told its a different one.

What a mess.

imo

Ladyhawk

04-18-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by lotty

One of the mothers said on LK the other night that her child has special needs and she was upset because he was 5yo or older and they wouldn't let her stay with him, or allow him to return to the ranch with her. I don't remember her name sorry. IMO [/*]

Thanks...only one child out of 400 is an amazing statistic. Of course, it could be that there's more but it just hasn't been mentioned. I would hope that's the case, that it just hasn't been mentioned there are more than one special needs child.

johnielee333

04-18-2008, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by walton

I agree.

Another thing I would like to see come out of this is that they form a task force to look at all these cults. [/*]

i agree.

i also think the charges should be,
rape,all forms of abuse,welfare fraud,false imprisonment,kidnapping,bigamy,brainwashing and there might be more but i cant think right now.

this cult (the FLDS) needs to be completely broken up & people need to go to jail. this cult needs to be stopped.

Details

04-18-2008, 07:39 PM

I think we need to look into it anytime there are a bunch of people in a compound, where it's easy to restrict freedom of motion, and to have abuses hidden. It makes it so easy to kidnap a person - hold them against their will - when they reconsider joining the cult, until they can be brainwashed, threatened, or abused into compliance again.

walton

04-18-2008, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by CAT TOY
Hello Walton, really good to see you again :seeya:
Sad under this condition but I wanted to tell you hello again, LTNS
So, it sounds like tonite the news is the boys in the group are "stunted" emotionally....Thats a good way to put it. The women are as well.
I think they are stunted academically as well. No child left behind?
Why hasnt LB stepped up to the plate about that....
CT [/*]

Who is LB?

Child left behind? That is what I would like to know.
This compound has been in Texas for 4 years.

Where did that one woman get her college education? Where did these people move to Texas from?

Utah and Arizona should be feeling the sting of this as well. Why weren't they watching the kids? If the laws aren't in place after 100 years of this- why aren't they?

Who is investigating the investigators?

VC2

04-18-2008, 08:38 PM

I wish they could house all the children (boys and girls) at the fdls compound, and the men and women in the places they have the kids.

It seems to me that most of the focus is on the girls but the boys have been just as abused and indoctrinated. I also see no reason to separate them except for bed times, or is it the norm to separate sisters and brothers in abuse cases when siblings are removed?

Turn the compound into something positive, like a place for deprogramming and healing for these children until they can be permanently placed somewhere.

At least they will have their beds and toys etc.

jmo

evalles

04-18-2008, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by walton
11:24 a.m. - The psychiatrist says that FLDS members who leave the group are "highly vulnerable" to people who would exploit them because of their upbringing.

It's because they're behind in their decision-making capabilities - they haven't matured, he says.

He testifies that he asked three of the "young women" whether they would allow him to take their pulse, but told them that he didn't have to - it was up to them. They appeared to be flummoxed by having to make a choice, he says.

:(

If they struggled with this, can you imagine the turmoil they must face when they get to "choose" if they "want" to get married to the old man living down the hall?

:mad: [/*]

Isn't it funny that the psychiatrist admitted to obtaining his knowlege on the FLDS from the media ?

Details

04-18-2008, 09:46 PM

Judge rules kids will remain in state custody for now.

VC2

04-18-2008, 10:12 PM

The U.S. government paid more than $1.7 million in defense contracts over the last decade to companies owned by leaders of Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect, with tens of thousands allegedly winding its way back to Jeffs and his church.

The Pentagon had contracts with three companies with ties to Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect.

In fact, some of the deals were made after Jeffs was named to the FBI's "Most-Wanted List" and remained in place while he was on the run.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygamy.pentagon/index.html?eref=googletoolbar

more at link.

wandering

04-18-2008, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by VC2
The U.S. government paid more than $1.7 million in defense contracts over the last decade to companies owned by leaders of Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect, with tens of thousands allegedly winding its way back to Jeffs and his church.

The Pentagon had contracts with three companies with ties to Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect.

In fact, some of the deals were made after Jeffs was named to the FBI's "Most-Wanted List" and remained in place while he was on the run.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygamy.pentagon/index.html?eref=googletoolbar

more at link. [/*]And it has been reported that the young boys there were used for labor.

Freebird

04-18-2008, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by StickyBeak
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/investigator-says-girls-pregnant-in/n20080418050609990005?ecid=RSS0001

AP
Posted: 2008-04-18 05:06:27
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - After hours of lawyers popping up with similar objections and questions, a custody hearing for 416 children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused: A child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/18/polygamy.fri/index.html

Investigation shifting to Colorado, one woman arrested for false police report.[/*]

Not "Sarah" is it?

VC2

04-18-2008, 10:33 PM

it is disgusting, as is the pentagons response.

After jeffs was on the most wanted you would think they would not give any more.

For that matter why give any to a cult that is known for abusing children in the first place! Of course they had the lowest costs, child labor.

wandering

04-18-2008, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by VC2
it is disgusting, as is the pentagons response.

After jeffs was on the most wanted you would think they would not give any more.

For that matter why give any to a cult that is known for abusing children in the first place! Of course they had the lowest costs, child labor. [/*]Were they collecting welfare too?

evalles

04-19-2008, 01:41 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Details
But you're willing to smear the victims with "They always allege mental and physical abuse" and junk about how maybe they thought a spanking was abuse? Without even bothering to read?

You've had your troubles with CPS. That doesn't make every abused kid a liar, doesn't make every CPS worker a bad person. Yeesh! Most abused kids are telling the truth - they don't just "always allege". Most CPS workers are good people working hard to try to do the right thing - by a long shot! [/*][/QUOT

Please do not put words in my mouth.
I read the transcript last night but I didn't read the phoenix news article until today, I was exhausted and I had to be at work early, so I thought she was referring to the news article directly above the post, not the transcript
. If you've read the transcript, you'd know that the victims weren't testifying, it was CPS.
I will never smear a child, however CPS is the most corrupt agency in our country as evidenced by the way they made the mothers leave the children after they complained about their living conditions.
Nor have I said that any child has lied, so I don't know where you're getting this from.
I've yet to see a report involving accusations made by any of the 416 children, only by CPS.
Before saying that all these children are victims of sexual abuse, why don't you wait for the physical/ sexual exams that have been performed on these poor babies ? They've had time to get the DR's reports, if they've been raped, why hasn't anybody been arrested ?
Yeesh! Why you would imply that I would bad mouth innocent children is beyond me.

evalles

04-19-2008, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Details
These children need real mothers - in this case, their birth mothers are not doing that job. A real mother protects and nurtures her child. These give them away to old men, teach them it's OK for them to be molested at an early age. Let their boys be discarded with no education, no skills, no family, told they are worthless and damned.

These are not mothers. Maybe - just maybe - with some intervention by the government, they can be helped to become mothers.

A compound full of underage pregnant girls shows a serious problem - they didn't get carried away. They delayed far too long - every day they didn't respond to what we all knew was happening was another day an underage girl was molested by the men of the cult.

The 'bureaucrats' save many children from abuse, molestation and death, on a daily basis. I know two of the children that were saved from just such a fate (not FLDS - other children removed by CPS intervention) now thriving and growing up. There's a tendency to judge by the news stories that always present the bad cases - but the good cases never get reported on. You just know about them if you are part of them, to any small degree. [/*]

Are those two children with you ?