DNA testing

[tisamystery]

Will DNA testing work in a group like this that has so much in-breeding? Will they be able to prove familial connections (mom-child) or will DNA only prove they are related in some way? Due to the fact that they all seem related it would seem to me that DNA won't be effective. Does anybody here know?

[Carol25]

I think the people doing the DNA tests are going to be amazed at how close all the DNA's are going to be. They will have to be very careful.

[Details]

Yes, DNA works just fine on this type of group. It works on sisters, cousins, anything other than identical twins. And same for mom/child. They'll be similar - but there are billions of possible combinations - we all get our own different ones. Mitochondrial DNA might not do it - but since everyone here is alive, it'll be easy to get a decent sample for a full DNA profile.

[giddyupalw]

Originally posted by tisamystery
Will DNA testing work in a group like this that has so much in-breeding? Will they be able to prove familial connections (mom-child) or will DNA only prove they are related in some way? Due to the fact that they all seem related it would seem to me that DNA won't be effective. Does anybody here know? [/*]

Great question...I was thinking the same!! :shrug:

[GardenGirl]

I just heard they are doing DNA starting on Monday.
What a mammoth undertaking, and I really do give props to Texas on this one.
Not only a great expense, but the attorney's who've taken on representing the children, the judge for making the hard choices necessary to start the process of forcing inroads into a cult by making it's adult members accountable, NO MATTER WHAT, and for being willing to take on the entire mess of trying to their menation and genetic issues.
These kids cannot go into traditional foster homes, special circumstances require creative solutions.

The DNA will show the relationships which we in America have deemed illegal.
The having of babies with first cousins, fathers, brothers, half brothers, uncle's, grandfathers, nephews, etc.
I think I heard one man say the total number of different possible genetic relationships available, and it's in the hundred's.

The other thing which will show is the fumarese deficiency marker that comes from the interbreeding.
This is an issue we've not faced before, but it affects us all once these kids are mainstreamed.
We can pass it along to other by mating with them.
Hate to put it that way, but it's true. I really don't want my son marrying a girl from the sect who has the gene for it.

[juliekan]

I believe the specialist I saw on tv said it was a recessive gene, but with the inbreeding you end up with 2 people with it then it manifests itself? (Just thinking about your son probably not having the gene):)

[Moe76]

I don't think the parents will submit to DNA testing. If testing is done it could result in prison terms, and I don't believe the men will allow it. They are cowards, we've seen that in the press all week. Warren will tell them the children are now "tainted" or some such nonsense, they will abandon these kids just as they have the Lost Boys. The poor children will be thrown away, my heart just breaks for them.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by juliekan

I believe the specialist I saw on tv said it was a recessive gene,
but with the inbreeding you end up with 2 people with it then it manifests itself?
(Just thinking about your son probably not having the gene):)...... [/*]

I've finished reading an article about a genetic disease, you may find this interesting as I did.
QUOTING:
Dr. Theodore Tarby, a pediatric Neurologist who has treated some of the sect's affected residents has been quoted as estimating the IQ of these patients as around 25.

When Dr. Tarby examined another child, he sent off urine samples for definitive testing only to learn that his patients had a disorder so rare that only 13 other current cases were known.
The new cases Tarby uncovered now account for approximately 60.6% of all known cases of Fumarase deficiency.
The fumarase deficiency gene has become very common, due to the practice of Endogamy.

It is believed that Joseph Smith Jessop, one of the founders of the communities, and his first wife carried the gene.
According to the Phoenix New Times, the stage was set for the rare disease when their 12th child, Martha Jessop, married her second cousin, John Yeates Barlow, in 1923.
There is the possibility of perhaps hundreds of new cases in future generations if preventative measures are not adopted by the group members who are suspected carriers of the gene.
More alarming is a FLDS community in Eldorado, Texas, which is populated with many members of these two extended families who can be presumed to be potential carriers of the recessive gene..........JMO

[juliekan]

Very interesting...sounds like over time they may "phase themselves out." Poor families!

[reena]

Originally posted by Moe76
I don't think the parents will submit to DNA testing. If testing is done it could result in prison terms, and I don't believe the men will allow it. They are cowards, we've seen that in the press all week. Warren will tell them the children are now "tainted" or some such nonsense, they will abandon these kids just as they have the Lost Boys. The poor children will be thrown away, my heart just breaks for them. [/*]

I agree, they will abandon the children. The men won't want to face jail time. They can just start pumping out more children. I feel sorry for the mothers, but I don't think the men give a damn about the kids.

[spirit07]

I was wondering if there would be problems with the the testing accurately identifying the fathers, but evidently not and it sounds like it isn't that difficult.

"Although the many unique family ties found in the sect will probably add a level of difficulty for DNA analysts in determining parentage, Beaudet said, the added complexity is still "not a significant concern."

A certain number of DNA markers — segments of the DNA with specific genetic characteristics — are tested to determine whether two people are related. Beaudet said that if any uncertainties arise, analysts simply test additional markers."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD9057UAO0

[Carol25]

Originally posted by spirit07
I was wondering if there would be problems with the the testing accurately identifying the fathers, but evidently not and it sounds like it isn't that difficult.

"Although the many unique family ties found in the sect will probably add a level of difficulty for DNA analysts in determining parentage, Beaudet said, the added complexity is still "not a significant concern."

A certain number of DNA markers — segments of the DNA with specific genetic characteristics — are tested to determine whether two people are related. Beaudet said that if any uncertainties arise, analysts simply test additional markers."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD9057UAO0 [/*]
We have all watched trials and cases where it took a long time to get DNA tests results back. I can't imagine this taking a short time, especially if additional markers have to be used. We are talking about 416 children and at least 100 adults. I would think this would take months.

if some of the adults refuse the DNA test, it would be the same as abandoning the children they want back so much.

However, I do see that many men may disappear about the time DNA testing is about to be done, in an effort to interfere with the fact that these women had children at such a young age. You would need the male and female DNA to positively identify that a child belongs to a particular couple. I'm not sure if mitochondrial DNA would be enough to determine mother. Anyone know, since the incest is so bad?

[spirit07]

Carol, I don't know the answers to your questions. I think we will be hearing a lot more commentary on this next week, e.g., how long this takes, testing particulars, etc. I think the judge ruled they have custody of the children for 60 days? Of course, they could then extend that. One article (maybe the same one I posted a link to) did say they had experience in these types of large scale DNA analyses due to natural disaster and such. I wonder if they will give the fathers x amount of time to come forward also. Complicating things, it appears some of the children may have come from Canada.

(just adding, sorry, I'm having a bit of trouble thinking all this through. If fathers don't come forward, I wonder if they can still identify many of them. Not sure what will happen, but if a father comes forward and say claims children of his first wife, then perhaps they can identify him as the father of all other wives' children? The mind boggles)

[Carol25]

Originally posted by spirit07
Carol, I don't know the answers to your questions. I think we will be hearing a lot more commentary on this next week, e.g., how long this takes, testing particulars, etc. I think the judge ruled they have custody of the children for 60 days? Of course, they could then extend that. One article (maybe the same one I posted a link to) did say they had experience in these types of large scale DNA analyses due to natural disaster and such. I wonder if they will give the fathers x amount of time to come forward also. Complicating things, it appears some of the children may have come from Canada.

(just adding, sorry, I'm having a bit of trouble thinking all this through. If fathers don't come forward, I wonder if they can still identify many of them. Not sure what will happen, but if a father comes forward and say claims children of his first wife, then perhaps they can identify him as the father of all other wives' children? The mind boggles) [/*]
Since there were geneaological records, birth certifictes, marriage documents found, these would have the males name on them (not sure of the birth certificates) . So, I wonder if LE would try to go to Utah, Arizona or Canada to find these men. They probably wouldn't have jurisdiction in Canada, but perhaps Canadian officials would help.

Wow, can you imagine trying to find these men? Wouldn't there be some IRS information on their whereabouts?

If the court orders them to appear in court and they do not show up, would bench warrants be issued?

[spirit07]

Originally posted by Carol25

Since there were geneaological records, birth certifictes, marriage documents found, these would have the males name on them (not sure of the birth certificates) . So, I wonder if LE would try to go to Utah, Arizona or Canada to find these men. They probably wouldn't have jurisdiction in Canada, but perhaps Canadian officials would help.

Wow, can you imagine trying to find these men? Wouldn't there be some IRS information on their whereabouts?

If the court orders them to appear in court and they do not show up, would bench warrants be issued? [/*]



Well, it will be interesting. There can't be that many men from the compoound who do not have plural wives, can there? I'm not sure whether law enforcement will try to initially track them down for parentage or not? I wonder if the Canadian officials will be a bit more active now, there was just a report about Americans being in there sect. I assume a high percentage of them are children? I don't know. Seems the Canadian officials will have to intersect with ours especially if there are parents/a parent there of children in custody. Same for Utah, etc.

My biggest curiosity is if men who were 'excommunicated' and their wives reassigned will step-up and claim parentage.

[xray ra]

Originally posted by tirante


Anyone notice the name, Joseph Smith? Joseph Smith started this whole deal back in the 1840's. Nothing like an old guy, high on Biblical Viagra! Especially when he writes the rules. [/*]

That would be so funny if this whole situation wasn't so sick and sad. But a little humor always helps. My BP was raising faster than my reading!!

ETA Thanks for the smile:)

[wandering]

Originally posted by Carol25

Since there were geneaological records, birth certifictes, marriage documents found, these would have the males name on them (not sure of the birth certificates) . So, I wonder if LE would try to go to Utah, Arizona or Canada to find these men. They probably wouldn't have jurisdiction in Canada, but perhaps Canadian officials would help.

Wow, can you imagine trying to find these men? Wouldn't there be some IRS information on their whereabouts?

If the court orders them to appear in court and they do not show up, would bench warrants be issued? [/*]It was reported last week that most of the youngest children have no birth certificates.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by tirante


Anyone notice the name, Joseph Smith?

Joseph Smith started this whole deal back in the 1840's.
Nothing like an old guy, high on Biblical Viagra!
Especially when he writes the rules. [/*]

"..It is believed that Joseph Smith Jessop, one of the founders of the communities, and his first wife carried the gene...."................

What are the ODDS that both these people (1st wife & husband) carried this very rare gene in the 1840's?

What was the population for that area and state in the 1840's?

My guess is: they were related.....jmo

[IfIMay]

Originally posted by Carol25

Since there were geneaological records, birth certifictes, marriage documents found, these would have the males name on them (not sure of the birth certificates) . So, I wonder if LE would try to go to Utah, Arizona or Canada to find these men. They probably wouldn't have jurisdiction in Canada, but perhaps Canadian officials would help.

Wow, can you imagine trying to find these men? Wouldn't there be some IRS information on their whereabouts?

If the court orders them to appear in court and they do not show up, would bench warrants be issued? [/*]

They can identify a profile of Daddy X. And connect it to other children. I doubt the men will come forward.

[awareness]

Originally posted by wandering
It was reported last week that most of the youngest children have no birth certificates. [/*]

Im not surprised to read that, but feel sad for the young children who don't have one. Makes me wonder about the "kiddieland" (or whatever its called) graves outside Colorado City where there are many infant graves. Are those children ever accounted for anywhere? I wonder if they had birth certificates.

That's an interesting theory... I wonder if Joseph Smith Jessop & his first wife WERE related. Although back in the original founding days of LDS/FDLS I don't think there was a need for that. In today's day though, its hard to find 2 people that arent related somewhere down the family tree.

Many congrats to the state of TX taking on this monumental task and I wish them all the best.

JMO/IMO

[xray ra]

Originally posted by IfIMay


They can identify a profile of Daddy X. And connect it to other children. I doubt the men will come forward. [/*]

So just writing out loud here LOL, ...... If 8 children were sired by "Daddy X and one of "Daddy X's daughter also had a child sired by "Daddy X" then incest could be proved?

Then all of "Daddy X's" children could be kept away from that sick environment based on the "Daddy's" criminal/child abuse history?
Hope thats how it will work out.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed!!

[ccnsd]

One of the news reporters said last week that they will start with a DNA 13 pt marker profile. I'm sure they're going to have to stretch it out a bit further because of the close kinship of the sperm donors. Heck the mothers X dna will match some of these kids' X. Does that make sense? I thought incest was illegal?
ITA mind boggling
JMO

[Details]

The answer to all DNA questions is "yes" - they'll be able to prove incest, everything. DNA is very detailed, and even when there's a huge amount of interbreeding, your DNA is always unique, and unique enough to identify your parents as well. Even when your parent is also your grandfather.

[duncan]

I hope it is ok for me to post here, my mother had three daughters but I was the only one who had children, my eldest was born in Ethiopia but when the revolution started my husband and I came home and I gave bith to indentical twins.

My home and my daughters became a magnet for all of my female family, my mother and sisters and grandmothers & aunts all were there almost all of the time and at first I did not mind, but then I realized that my daughters did not know who was the mommy, they went to any female for love or comfort and I got jealous but how to toss the family out???

It all worked out and my children thrived , but as I read these posts I am reminded of those years, really my children did not know me as the mother, they just accepted all of us as caregivers, I am the middle child and so the peacekeeper and I let it continue , I post this because I can understand how the children may be confused about who mommy and daddy are.

I gave birth in a hospital and back then the babies footprint was on the birth certificate, I knew who mommy was:D

[spirit07]

Originally posted by Details
The answer to all DNA questions is "yes" - they'll be able to prove incest, everything. DNA is very detailed, and even when there's a huge amount of interbreeding, your DNA is always unique, and unique enough to identify your parents as well. Even when your parent is also your grandfather. [/*]

Yes!

I forget the numbers of mothers and fathers they are set to test, but those number did reflect about 3-4 mothers for every father, I think.

I guess they will also be able to figure out if a father is not amongst the crowd tested even if that father is actually the son of one of the fathers who do show-up? Sorry, I am really have a problem in wording here! I'm wondering about those possible fathers who were kicked out of the compound or father of children who came from another state.

[spirit07]

Duncan, the kids may or may not know who there mom's are. They do know in whose house or bedroom they slept in - that might be a clue as to who the parents are.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by spirit07


Yes!

I forget the numbers of mothers and fathers they are set to test, but those number did reflect about 3-4 mothers for every father, I think.

I guess they will also be able to figure out if a father is not amongst the crowd tested even if that father is actually the son of one of the fathers who do show-up? Sorry, I am really have a problem in wording here! I'm wondering about those possible fathers who were kicked out of the compound or father of children who came from another state. [/*]

65 men
200+ women
400+ children

And now we are hearing of men who are in AZ & UT who have children at this compound. So some of the men at the compound may not be the father to some of these children.

It is all so very convoluted. It's no wonder these kids can't actually say the name of their mother or father.

[duncan]

Originally posted by spirit07
Duncan, the kids may or may not know who there mom's are. They do know in whose house or bedroom they slept in - that might be a clue as to who the parents are. [/*]


I see what you are saying, I wonder if the confusion of the children can be linked to the number of wives in the house, one daddy and how many wives?

Sorry for my post, not the same at all, except my daughters thought they had many moms, I was just reminded of that as I follow this story.


Poor kids.:rose:

[spirit07]

Originally posted by KatyDid


65 men
200+ women
400+ children

And now we are hearing of men who are in AZ & UT who have children at this compound. So some of the men at the compound may not be the father to some of these children.

It is all so very convoluted. It's no wonder these kids can't actually say the name of their mother or father. [/*]


Thanks for the numbers again! Weird how that works out to almost exactly 3 women/man. Some kids have probably changed fathers and mothers, no doubt.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by duncan

I see what you are saying, I wonder if the confusion of the children can be linked to the number of wives in the house, one daddy and how many wives?

Sorry for my post, not the same at all, except my daughters thought they had many moms, I was just reminded of that as I follow this story.

Poor kids.:rose: [/*]

I think the kids were also taught to call every other wife of their father's "Mother" too. No, I understand what you are saying about your situation, it made me sort of laugh as I've seen the same thing with very little one's. For some reason your post also made me remember how when my dad would get a little angry (not that often), but, he would yell at whichever one of us was acting up and go through 3 of our names before getting the correct one. My family isn't that big either!

[spirit07]

Duncan, I also saw an interview with a teenage girl who left the cult. She was talking about her younger sister (not sure, maybe half sister even) and said she took care of her from a very young age. She smiled lovingly as she said it, but I imagine the 'sister' might have thought she was mommy.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by spirit07
Duncan, I also saw an interview with a teenage girl who left the cult. She was talking about her younger sister (not sure, maybe half sister even) and said she took care of her from a very young age. She smiled lovingly as she said it, but I imagine the 'sister' might have thought she was mommy. [/*]

You know, I read these things and it stikes me that these kids have no idea what a real mommy and daddy are. :(

[spirit07]

Originally posted by KatyDid


You know, I read these things and it stikes me that these kids have no idea what a real mommy and daddy are. :( [/*]

Some one on this forum posted...

"Sounds like a song we used to sing out on the farm, with minor adjustments....

"Pass my other mother over to my other brother, pass my other mother this away. So I passed my other mother over to my other brother, and we both had our hands full every day."

http://texaspolygamy.blogspot.com/2006/12/six-more-families-leave-town.html

I think most posting are ex sect members?

[spirit07]

They must have a lot of interesting sayings as I found this one and really laughed..


"**Some are collecting "pennies for the prophet", while others are collecting "panties for the prophet". Now, just change the spelling of prophet to profit and it will all make sense."

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by essiemadge
does anyone here know if utah is a state that collects dna from prisoners in the state???
i have read, somewhere on this message board, there are rumers that some of the children belong to the convicted child molester, jeffs. do they have his dna to test??? can they get it from him in prison now if they dont have it???? [/*]

:D My opinoin on that...if he is a prisoner of the state, does he even get a choice? I don't think it would be too hard to get it if he uses a cup, a toothbrush, etc.

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by tirante
I know there is nothing funny about the Eldorado situation, but it does remind me of this old comic video.

A little humor never hurts.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/54702/im_my_own_grandpa/ [/*]

This is severe thread drift...(please forgive me in advance) but after watching that, I wonder what the FLDS Daddies would do with this one:

http://www.seanmorey.com/mansong.html

for those who have never heard the song here are the lyrics:


The Man Song by Sean Morey

I don't take no crap from anybody! ... else but you.
I wear the pants around here!...when I'm finished with your laundry.
'Cause I'm a guy you don't want to fight! ... when I say "jump" you say "yeah, right".
I'm the man of this house! ... until you get home.

What I say goes around here! ... right out the window.
And I don't want to hear a lot of whining! ... so I'll shut up.
The sooner you learn who's boss around here! ... the sooner you can give me my orders, dear.
'Cause I am the head honcho! ... but it's all in my head.

And I can have sex anytime! ... that you want.
'Cause I'm a man who has needs! ... but they're not that important.
And don't expect any flowers from me! ... because if I'm not mistaken you prefer jewelry.
I'm the king of my castle! ... when you're not around.

And I'll drink and watch sports whenever I want! ... to get into trouble.
And I'll come home when I'm good and ready! ... to sleep on the couch.
Because a man's got to do what a man's got to do! ... and I'm going to do what you tell me to.
Because I'm top dog around here! ... but I've been neutered!

edit - I promise some day to learn to spell!

[SHymes13]

I'm appalled that these people that are whining wanting their kids back are refusing to get DNA testing.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by spirit07
Duncan, I also saw an interview with a teenage girl who left the cult. She was talking about her younger sister (not sure, maybe half sister even) and said she took care of her from a very young age. She smiled lovingly as she said it, but I imagine the 'sister' might have thought she was mommy. [/*]

One of my aunts married a Mormon. (Mainline, one wife, but nine children, I've lost track of how many of those nine children have kids of their own now.) The eldest daughter spent most of her time taking care of the younger kids, and as the younger girls were judged responsible enough, they helped. We didn't see them often, as they lived quite a distance away, but even as a kid, watching my younger cousin handle her siblings, it broke my heart to know that she never really got to BE a child, herself.

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by SHymes13
I'm appalled that these people that are whining wanting their kids back are refusing to get DNA testing. [/*]

Well, of course they are refusing. There are several reasons I can think of to refuse:

1) The men are the father of at least one child sired on an underage girl.

2) Some of the children don't HAVE a parent at the ranch, they were dropped off and left there by their parents.

3) They're concerned that proof of fathering a child on several different women will get them convicted of polygamy.

4) Matching fathers to children listed on the welfare roles as children of single mothers, father unknown, will hit the FLDS hard in the pocketbook, as the father is now known.

5) Some of the tests may show that there was incest going on, as well as polygamy.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but those are off the top of my head.

[KatyDid]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


Well, of course they are refusing. There are several reasons I can think of to refuse:

1) The men are the father of at least one child sired on an underage girl.

2) Some of the children don't HAVE a parent at the ranch, they were dropped off and left there by their parents.

3) They're concerned that proof of fathering a child on several different women will get them convicted of polygamy.

4) Matching fathers to children listed on the welfare roles as children of single mothers, father unknown, will hit the FLDS hard in the pocketbook, as the father is now known.

5) Some of the tests may show that there was incest going on, as well as polygamy.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but those are off the top of my head. [/*]

An excellent list Rainkiss!!

I believe their is much more going on at these cult compounds than even LE can fathom.

The good thing is Texas got the ball rolling. Texas has the courage to step in and protect the children. If UT, AZ and other states don't follow through with similar investigations in their states...shame on them. :no:

My hope is the unraveling will go deep enough to prove persons in high government positions could have done something but didn't. I hope it ruins their professional political careers for their lifetime.

[Rainkiss]

The problem is that these folks are hiding behind the protections we all hold dear. We want the freedom to practice our own faiths, the freedom not to have police searching our homes without probable cause, freedom to teach our children...

And, they've got a LOT of money behind them to get the legal advice to do things so they're under the radar. The LE in Texas had a good idea what was going on, but couldn't actually act until they had a valid complaint. (Yes, it may have been a false call, and that's being investigated, but when they went, they believed it was a real cry for help.)

I wonder how many of the lawyers who've volunteered to represent the children are actually members of the FLDS, openly or not. Things like that keep me up at night. :(

[SHymes13]

Exactly! It's so obvious they are hiding things.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by SHymes13

I'm appalled that these people that are whining wanting

their kids back are refusing to get DNA testing. [/*]

Imo...Is it possible, they think we are naive, gullible and stupid?

After all they have gotten by with breaking all sort of
laws, lying, bribes and welfare fraud for years....moo

All the time getting rich riding the backs of the tax payers .

WHY wouldn't they think they are "smarter" than our elected officials ?....jmo

[Rainkiss]

Originally posted by SHymes13
Exactly! It's so obvious they are hiding things. [/*]

The lawyers are supposed to be acting in the best interests of the children... and the first things they've been doing, as I see it, have been to delay the initial hearing and to try to get the children sent back to the environment where the abuse was (allegedly) happening?

I'd like to have it looked into how many of the volunteers have worked for the FLDS before, or are currently receiving funds that might have been channeled by a third party from the FLDS. Call me suspicious if you like, but I never underestimate the capability of people to try to do end runs around the system.

[tisamystery]

Originally posted by Rainkiss


The lawyers are supposed to be acting in the best interests of the children... and the first things they've been doing, as I see it, have been to delay the initial hearing and to try to get the children sent back to the environment where the abuse was (allegedly) happening?

[/*]

That's a very interesting point. In a very straight-forward case, the court says "A" did it and "A's" lawyer says he didn't. The lawyer takes the position of disagreeing with the court.

But in a case like this, how easy would it be for the lawyers to lose sight of their client (the child) and transfer their position to achieving the goals of the parents? Not intentionally, of course, but simply because they have been trained as defense lawyers to oppose the court's position. Wouldn't it be a shock if a lawyer stepped up and said, as the attorney for the CHILD, "I believe it is in the best interest of the child to remain outside of the FLDS influence." It'll never happen. But why couldn't it? Would a lawyer who studied the case and determined the child's best interest is in agreement with the court be found to be a poor representative? Why? Because he/she didn't automatically oppose the court?

So, it would seem to me the lawyers will fight for the return of the children regardless of what is really in their best interest because he/she is by nature compelled to be adversarial.l.

I don't think I've stated this well. Perhaps somebody can explain it better.