Drinking Wine and FLDS

[tisamystery]

They dress like pioneers and seem isolated from wordly things. They say that the kids from YFZ had never seen crayons and it makes the news when its learned that some of the women wear contact lenses.

I think there's a huge misconception that the FLDS are like the Amish. Not so.

I read Carolyn Jessop's book "Escaped" and was very surprised to learn that her FLDS family drank wine. It appeared from her description that wine is not considered taboo, the women partake of it as well and getting drunk isn't unusual. She spoke of drinking wine as a beverage, not as part of a religious ceremony or anything like that. She also mentioned drinking coffee but that, it seems, was to be hidden.

We need to get a better picture of just what is and isn't permissible in this society. We're jumping to conlusions based on their dress and apparent lifestyle that may not be the case.

Anybody know of any other odd dichotomies?

[spirit07]

Interesting post, thanks. I do not think they are at all like Amish. The dress must make some people think they are. I grew up near many Amish communities and I think those commenting on any similarities are just not familiar with the Amish.

If I find anything to add of relevance, I'll be back! Another dichotomy although certainly not new is the use of the welfare system in the face of what looks like a very rich community. They also appear to be politically connected while wanting the gov to butt-out. Again, not really new info though.

One person on youtube has quite a collection of videos on FLDS, the geneograms/family trees are interesting

http://youtube.com/user/fincenMIB

[tisamystery]

I remember an young ex FLDS woman saying that the FLDS consider themselves to be their own nation. According to her they don't learn American history and when she was a kid she didn't even know who the President of the United States was, as they considered their prophet to be their President. Now, of course, they scream about civil liberty and the home of the brave.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by tisamystery
I remember an young ex FLDS woman saying that the FLDS consider themselves to be their own nation. According to her they don't learn American history and when she was a kid she didn't even know who the President of the United States was, as they considered their prophet to be their President. Now, of course, they scream about civil liberty and the home of the brave. [/*]

Are they still required to homeschool? I saw an interview also with a young girl who left, she was 16 and had a 6th grade education she said. Another 16 year old said Jeffs would intimidate them. One time he came up behind her, put his hands on her shoulders, got close to her ear and whispered, "Are you staying sweet or do you need to be punished?"

[spirit07]

I'm not exactly staying on topic here, but maybe this is a bit more relevant. It was said there are 62 unmarked FLDS child graves in the Colorado City Cemetary. I do not think this has been really investigated. I wonder if the leaders of FLDS would claim they don't mark graves for religious reasons (I can't think of any other religions or ethnic groups that do this). I'm curious to know if they don't mark them because they do not want the pedigree/name public for research or if there is an unusually high number of male children buried there.

[Carol25]

When anderson Cooper was interviewing a wsoman from the FLDS and she said that we were treated like we were in the Nazi Concentration camps. Cooper asked, do you know what happened at the concentration camps? She answered yes. I know my history I have a college degree. He dropped it right there. How I wished he hadn't. I wished he had told her they were stripped of their clothing and starved to death, put into train cars and gassed to death and millions were tortured and murdered. Their skin was sometimes used for lamp shades, their gold fillings taken out and made into rings and bodies burned in massive ovens.

And then asked her, Is that what it was like when CPS took you and your child?

[Carol25]

Originally posted by spirit07
I'm not exactly staying on topic here, but maybe this is a bit more relevant. It was said there are 62 unmarked FLDS child graves in the Colorado City Cemetary. I do not think this has been really investigated. I wonder if the leaders of FLDS would claim they don't mark graves for religious reasons (I can't think of any other religions or ethnic groups that do this). I'm curious to know if they don't mark them because they do not want the pedigree/name public for research or if there is an unusually high number of male children buried there. [/*]
It could be also an indication of how many babies are being born with the femarase disease, the imbreeding genetic disease that causes gross deformities and retardation.

[Details]

There's also a lot of former members, lost boys, etc. saying that the children are used for construction projects and other dangerous jobs - that graveyard could contain the result of some accidents from that as well.

[spirit07]

I just read about both those issues, femarase disease and dangerous work conditions too (raised by Carol and Details).

I think the charge of the Nazi concentration camp is strange and just one more thing that ruins the mothers credibility. Odd too, that members who have left charged that Warren Jeffs was acting like a Nazi or like Hitler - maybe they are throwing back that to counteract those claims.

I'm shocked about what this man has gotten away with, it seems to go far beyond the child bride thing.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by Carol25
When anderson Cooper was interviewing a wsoman from the FLDS and she said that we were treated like we were in the Nazi Concentration camps. Cooper asked, do you know what happened at the concentration camps? She answered yes. I know my history I have a college degree. He dropped it right there. How I wished he hadn't. I wished he had told her they were stripped of their clothing and starved to death, put into train cars and gassed to death and millions were tortured and murdered. Their skin was sometimes used for lamp shades, their gold fillings taken out and made into rings and bodies burned in massive ovens.

And then asked her, Is that what it was like when CPS took you and your child? [/*]

Hmm, I kind of get the feeling it is more than ignorance going on here (or a slap in the face to concentration camp survivors or their family). It seems almost flippant, like it doesn't matter I've used the words and planted the idea. I also get the feeling they use a very small number of women associated with the religion to claim they are educated and have free will, as spokes people, etc. There are many videos of a pro-polygamy teen rally on youtube. The girls are very mainstream looking and are making claims about being more mainstream than they are. Seems like obvious plants. Who knows, maybe they are just outsiders paid to make speeches? They just look nothing like the women or girls that have been on the news, it's very odd.


Here's an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm57gOa6wYA&feature=related

[lotty]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spirit07

<respectfully snipped>
There are many videos of a pro-polygamy teen rally on youtube. The girls are very mainstream looking and are making claims about being more mainstream than they are. Seems like obvious plants. Who knows, maybe they are just outsiders paid to make speeches? They just look nothing like the women or girls that have been on the news, it's very odd.

IMO/JMO I haven't had a chance to watch yet, but I will. Could be Cenntenial Park, they are polyg, but not like FLDS.
:)

[lotty]

I don't know where the girl was from. However there are groups that are pro polygamy that are not like the FLDS. I will not comment on polygamy. I don't believe that is the issue here.
http://www.principlevoices.org/
This is pro polygamy. It might surprise you how many are out there.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by spirit07


Hmm, I kind of get the feeling it is more than ignorance going on here (or a slap in the face to concentration camp survivors or their family). It seems almost flippant, like it doesn't matter I've used the words and planted the idea. I also get the feeling they use a very small number of women associated with the religion to claim they are educated and have free will, as spokes people, etc. There are many videos of a pro-polygamy teen rally on youtube. The girls are very mainstream looking and are making claims about being more mainstream than they are. Seems like obvious plants. Who knows, maybe they are just outsiders paid to make speeches? They just look nothing like the women or girls that have been on the news, it's very odd.


Here's an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm57gOa6wYA&feature=related [/*]
The cynic in me thought this cost the FLDS a lot of money. But there are probably pro-polygamists that would claim to be part of FLDS cults. Or part of more moderate one, who knows.

What's that show that asks questions and before hand you were hooked up you a Lie Detector? that's what we need.

I vote for plants, myself, too.

[spirit07]

Yeah, I think plants or others who are just pro-polygamy but not part of LDS. Probably the former, or they groom certain people on the fringes for these roles (female members who don't run around in pioneer dresses?). Why would their dress be so different at these rallies - of course, maybe they realize that would portray being a girl in the sect or a plural wife in a much different light, too much of a real glimpse into their culture?

However, the whole demeanor of some presenting is also drastically different than the recent videos we've seen of women in the sect. I feel a lot of the women are basically victims, one woman I read about asked Jeffs to marry her sweetheart when she was 15. He said NO and made her marry her sister's husband. She ended up running away and later became an artist. But, I also think there are many women there who promote the abuse and have some power.

[spirit07]

Originally posted by lotty
[QUOTE]Originally posted by spirit07

<respectfully snipped>
There are many videos of a pro-polygamy teen rally on youtube. The girls are very mainstream looking and are making claims about being more mainstream than they are. Seems like obvious plants. Who knows, maybe they are just outsiders paid to make speeches? They just look nothing like the women or girls that have been on the news, it's very odd.

IMO/JMO I haven't had a chance to watch yet, but I will. Could be Cenntenial Park, they are polyg, but not like FLDS.
:) [/*]

Maybe you are right and it isn't a FLDS rally.

[spirit07]

Well, all the videos say they are from the Mormon Fundamentalist plural marriage youth rally -
Salt Lake City, August 2006 and they are posted by someone supporting this website:

http://mormonmessenger.org

A little strange also, I suppose this personal icon pic is of two girls in bride's maid dresses, but....

http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonratay

[wandering]

Originally posted by lotty
[QUOTE]Originally posted by spirit07

<respectfully snipped>
There are many videos of a pro-polygamy teen rally on youtube. The girls are very mainstream looking and are making claims about being more mainstream than they are. Seems like obvious plants. Who knows, maybe they are just outsiders paid to make speeches? They just look nothing like the women or girls that have been on the news, it's very odd.

IMO/JMO I haven't had a chance to watch yet, but I will. Could be Cenntenial Park, they are polyg, but not like FLDS.
:) [/*]I met up with two Mormon women in CA, they tried to convert me. They called each other "sister." They didn't tell me they were plural wives, but I was taken aback when this case broke, because of the term "sister wives."

One wore lots of make-up and regular clothes, she was very attractive. The other was very plain, no make-up. I had a hard time getting rid of them, lol...

[juliekan]

Originally posted by Carol25
When anderson Cooper was interviewing a wsoman from the FLDS and she said that we were treated like we were in the Nazi Concentration camps. Cooper asked, do you know what happened at the concentration camps? She answered yes. I know my history I have a college degree. He dropped it right there. How I wished he hadn't. I wished he had told her they were stripped of their clothing and starved to death, put into train cars and gassed to death and millions were tortured and murdered. Their skin was sometimes used for lamp shades, their gold fillings taken out and made into rings and bodies burned in massive ovens.

And then asked her, Is that what it was like when CPS took you and your child? [/*]
You ought to e-mail Anderson Cooper...great point

[spirit07]

Originally posted by wandering
I met up with two Mormon women in CA, they tried to convert me. They called each other "sister." They didn't tell me they were plural wives, but I was taken aback when this case broke, because of the term "sister wives."

One wore lots of make-up and regular clothes, she was very attractive. The other was very plain, no make-up. I had a hard time getting rid of them, lol... [/*]


So maybe they don't all dress in the prairie dress style?

[lotty]

Originally posted by spirit07



So maybe they don't all dress in the prairie dress style? [/*]

Not all polygamists are FLDS, there are other groups that practice polygamy. They are different in many ways.

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/
Scroll down to the bottom of this page, there is a big graphic on the "splinters" and the different churches. IMO/JMO

[tisamystery]

It's interesting that while prairie dress is imposed upon the women, the men don't have a similar restriction. They pretty much dress in modern attire. If they, too, were locked in time, we'd see something more like the Amish, beards and all.

Some presumed expert in an interview said that this odd dress helps to bond the women, particularly when they go out of the community to shop for groceries, etc. and have to endure stares. Personally, I think there's more at work here. Dressing alike leaves them no opportunity for personal expression, no temptation to be an individual.

While watching the home tour again, I noticed a lap top computer in one on the bedrooms. I doubt they have internet access. Wonder what they use it for?

Oh, and keep in mind that home tour was not housing for the entire community, despite the institutional appearance. That houses ONE family. Also, Marilyin showed her mother's bedroom. I'm still wondering if that means her mother is also her sister wife since I don't believe their homes involve extended family. Anybody know?

[sammyboy23]

Originally posted by wandering
I met up with two Mormon women in CA, they tried to convert me. They called each other "sister." They didn't tell me they were plural wives, but I was taken aback when this case broke, because of the term "sister wives."

One wore lots of make-up and regular clothes, she was very attractive. The other was very plain, no make-up. I had a hard time getting rid of them, lol... [/*]

Were they missionaries? They very well could have been. If they were calling each other sister I can pretty much guarantee you they were missionaries.

I've lived in Utah my whole life. I'm not Mormon though. I have many Mormon friends. There is a big difference between people who are in the FLDS church and the LDS church. Mormon people don't believe in polygamy. Plural marriage is something that was common back in the beginning of the LDS religion (1800's) but not common anymore.

I know a lot of people in Utah but I don't know any polygamists . I have seen them though, every once and awhile. They definitely dress weird...

-Sam

[TrishR]

I remember during Warren Jeffs' trial, one woman testified that she ran some sort of computer-based business, and that Ashley Banfield was surprised when she displayed her Ipod on the stand.

I wasn't surprised. Before Ipods, the FLDS used cassette tapes & CDs to make Jeffs' words available for listening & relistening. An Ipod would be superior for that purpose, if one were running a controlling cult, because unlike CD & cassette players, Ipods only play what's loaded on them, and don't receive radio transmissions. With Ipods, the person with the computer controls the playlist, and anyone who wants to can see what you have access to. Also, just because someone has a laptop doesn't mean it has access to the internet.

On women's appearance - I've read the braids are used to control women & girls. The men will twist a braid until it causes the female pain.

[KKKKKKatie]

Originally posted by tisamystery
They dress like pioneers and seem isolated from wordly things. They say that the kids from YFZ had never seen crayons and it makes the news when its learned that some of the women wear contact lenses.

I think there's a huge misconception that the FLDS are like the Amish. Not so.

I read Carolyn Jessop's book "Escaped" and was very surprised to learn that her FLDS family drank wine. It appeared from her description that wine is not considered taboo, the women partake of it as well and getting drunk isn't unusual. She spoke of drinking wine as a beverage, not as part of a religious ceremony or anything like that. She also mentioned drinking coffee but that, it seems, was to be hidden.

We need to get a better picture of just what is and isn't permissible in this society. We're jumping to conlusions based on their dress and apparent lifestyle that may not be the case.

Anybody know of any other odd dichotomies? [/*]

and my guess is that girls don't have to be 21 to drink :mad: