Wednesday April 9, 2008 Lauterbach daily

[CANDYKISSES]

Well, apparently Captain Sutherland thinks the date of death is December 14th.

That leaves me wondering why the family seems to think the 15th.

It leaves me hopeful they are still operating under the idea that quite possibly Cesar had help.....JMOOC. :D

Time will tell IMO.

[crymeariver2006]

Bringing over my last post on yesterday's thread re the death certificate:

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


If you look at 19a and 19bee, you'll see the name of Merle Wilberding and his office address. Isn't that the Lauterbach attorney?

That might be a source of some of the confusion. Wouldn't he be the same attorney that assisted Mary on probate issues? [/*]

JMO and all that.

ETA nuttin's links to death certificate:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/DC1.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/DC2.jpg

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006
Bringing over my last post on yesterday's thread re the death certificate:



JMO and all that.

ETA nuttin's links to death certificate:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/DC1.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/DC2.jpg [/*]

Yes cryme, this is the attorney listed as representing Mary Lauterbach IMO.

I am wondering why the family is still going with the fifteenth?

Could it be their opinion on what happened and when differs from OCSD? :confused:

JMO.

[caejde]

To me, Capt. Sutherland's response is a little contradictory. He says (paraphrasing) that with certainty they believe. Well, to me if it was certain they wouldn't have to believe....does that make sense? When they say believe, to me that is an educated guess. But it's not certain if they say believe. If they knew for sure it was the 14th, then I could see them as saying they were certain date of death was the 14th. Maybe it's just me though...

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by caejde
To me, Capt. Sutherland's response is a little contradictory. He says (paraphrasing) that with certainty they believe. Well, to me if it was certain they wouldn't have to believe....does that make sense? When they say believe, to me that is an educated guess. But it's not certain if they say believe. If they knew for sure it was the 14th, then I could see them as saying they were certain date of death was the 14th. Maybe it's just me though... [/*]

I dunno, I'm just glad that he comments on Lindell's blog where the comment section can be moderated.

:D

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Yes cryme, this is the attorney listed as representing Mary Lauterbach IMO.

I am wondering why the family is still going with the fifteenth?

Could it be their opinion on what happened and when differs from OCSD? :confused:

JMO. [/*]

But why is anyone going with the 16th? Is there some special significance to that date as opposed to the 14th or even the 15th?

The 16th is not even listed on the autopsy is it?


:shrug:

[sexxytazz]

When my mom passed, it was an unattended death. IOW, she passed at home in her sleep. because it was unknown if she passed before or after midnight, my sisters and I were allowed to choose which day we wanted on her headstone, newpapers, ect as far as DOD. We choose the later of the two days because 1) that was hwen she was found and 2) we wanted her "here" with us as long as possible so we chose the later date.

Could something like this have happened with Marias family? Maybe at the time of her funeral, all the info was not in yet and it was still debatable as to which date she was actually killed?

[GentleBreeze]

I am bringing my posts from the morning over. I didnt see this thread first, sorry.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


YES it was and strangely I felt like I was reading a paraphrased rewrite....doh....must be adhd.

IMO. [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is very confusing to me.

The death certificate list 12/16/07 as the date that injuries occurred.

And I know this is a small thing but a Marine is never called a "soldier" yet they list her as one.

It seemed very sloppily typed imo.

imoo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze
I am bringing my posts from the morning over. I didnt see this thread first, sorry.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


YES it was and strangely I felt like I was reading a paraphrased rewrite....doh....must be adhd.

IMO. [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is very confusing to me.

The death certificate list 12/16/07 as the date that injuries occurred.

And I know this is a small thing but a Marine is never called a "soldier" yet they list her as one.

It seemed very sloppily typed imo.

imoo [/*]

I think the information on the top part is provided either by the family, or in this case, Attorney Wilberding. And IMO, he is the one that provided the DOD for probate purposes. Again, jmo.

But, if that's true, then why?

Yes, I noticed the "soldier" part and was going to ask about it. Also under marital status, it doesn't say "Single", it says "Never married".

And "USM Corp" as opposed to USMC or US Marines. Sounds like a corporation in the private sector. JMO though.

[caejde]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I dunno, I'm just glad that he comments on Lindell's blog where the comment section can be moderated.

:D [/*]

I enjoy the blog and I hope he continues to post. The comment board over at JD news is getting out of hand. Though I did read a comment from someone who seems to know Christina. And it was said that Cesar did bury Maria out in the wooded area behind their house and then after he went to Lowe's he moved the body. Did police even search that area? I know when I saw them searching they weren't at his house yet...they were searching off Gumbranch Rd.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sexxytazz
When my mom passed, it was an unattended death. IOW, she passed at home in her sleep. because it was unknown if she passed before or after midnight, my sisters and I were allowed to choose which day we wanted on her headstone, newpapers, ect as far as DOD. We choose the later of the two days because 1) that was when she was found and 2) we wanted her "here" with us as long as possible so we chose the later date.

Could something like this have happened with Marias family? Maybe at the time of her funeral, all the info was not in yet and it was still debatable as to which date she was actually killed? [/*]

In order to intern someone I do believe the family has to have some kind of legal information hat verifies the death date and other information. They also had to have something on Gabriel too even if it was preliminary I would think since they buried him separately from his mom in his own casket.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I think the information on the top part is provided either by the family, or in this case, Attorney Wilberding. And IMO, he is the one that provided the DOD for probate purposes. Again, jmo.

But, if that's true, then why?

Yes, I noticed the "soldier" part and was going to ask about it. Also under marital status, it doesn't say "Single", it says "Never married".

And "USM Corp" as opposed to USMC or US Marines. Sounds like a corporation in the private sector. JMO though. [/*]

Good Morning Cryme!

I don't know. I wasn't aware that the family or an attorney participated in the death certificate. I always thought that was issued strictly from a medical examiner's information or of course if it is from natural causes the doctor in care of the deceased can sign the death certificate.....at least in my state.

I think there is a time window of 10 days after knowledge of death to file the DC. However it can happen much sooner than the 10 days...depending on the urgency. When was Maria and Gabriel buried?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by caejde
To me, Capt. Sutherland's response is a little contradictory. He says (paraphrasing) that with certainty they believe. Well, to me if it was certain they wouldn't have to believe....does that make sense? When they say believe, to me that is an educated guess. But it's not certain if they say believe. If they knew for sure it was the 14th, then I could see them as saying they were certain date of death was the 14th. Maybe it's just me though... [/*]

That is how I interpreted it too, caejde.

imoo

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


That is how I interpreted it too, caejde.

imoo [/*]

Me too.

[strick10]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Me too. [/*]

Me three. Morning all! :seeya:

[donna]

Good morning, everyone!
I do read every post on a daily basis, but usually at a time when no one else is on due to my schedule.
I just read Captain Sutherland's response. Seems that LE is now going with the DOD being 12/14. There is no way to know for sure, IMO. We may never know.
I was glad to see CAL added to AMW's dirty dozen. I do hope some of the tips pan out.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Good Morning Cryme!

I don't know. I wasn't aware that the family or an attorney participated in the death certificate. I always thought that was issued strictly from a medical examiner's information or of course if it is from natural causes the doctor in care of the deceased can sign the death certificate.....at least in my state.

I think there is a time window of 10 days after knowledge of death to file the DC. However it can happen much sooner than the 10 days...depending on the urgency. When was Maria and Gabriel buried?

imoo [/*]

The date of death, in a case like this, is determined by LE through their investigation. CS says the date of death is the 14th. imo That is the last day they can determine she was alive, and at 5pm the last time she was seen alive by a witness when she bought the ticket.

I just don't see why that is so hard to understand. Just saying.............

jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by donna
Good morning, everyone!
I do read every post on a daily basis, but usually at a time when no one else is on due to my schedule.
I just read Captain Sutherland's response. Seems that LE is now going with the DOD being 12/14. There is no way to know for sure, IMO. We may never know.
I was glad to see CAL added to AMW's dirty dozen. I do hope some of the tips pan out. [/*]

Me too donna, been missing ya and hope all is well.

That really does tighten the time line as we have discussed for anyone believing Cesar did it all alone. Hmmm....:o

I see room for Cesar to come back and start coming up with the information they may or may not need to NAIL IT DOWN IMO. :eek:

jmo

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


The date of death, in a case like this, is determined by LE through their investigation. CS says the date of death is the 14th. imo That is the last day they can determine she was alive, and at 5pm the last time she was seen alive by a witness when she bought the ticket.

I just don't see why that is so hard to understand. Just saying.............

jmo [/*]

Not hard to understand what CS is saying in regards to the DOD Squawk. I understand they are basing that date with what is known to them as definately knowing she was alive up to 5:00. What's hard for me to understand are the events that happened from the time Maria arrived at the L's at approximately 5:30 to 7:00. An hour and a half is a superbly tight timeline to accomplish what is being said CAL accomplished.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by strick10


Not hard to understand what CS is saying in regards to the DOD Squawk. I understand they are basing that date with what is known to them as definately knowing she was alive up to 5:00. What's hard for me to understand are the events that happened from the time Maria arrived at the L's at approximately 5:30 to 7:00. An hour and a half is a superbly tight timeline to accomplish what is being said CAL accomplished. [/*]

:beer:

And that my friend is of the utmost importance IMO as their investigation continues. They have to ask themselves HOW this could be doen alone and how others could be on the scene and KNOW NOTHING IMHO.

Carry on.....

JMO

[strick10]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


:beer:

And that my friend is of the utmost importance IMO as their investigation continues. They have to ask themselves HOW this could be doen alone and how others could be on the scene and KNOW NOTHING IMHO.

Carry on.....

JMO [/*]

Carry on...:lol: I've always thought there was more than CAL involved in the murder. Can't say for sure whom the other(s) are though? It'd be nice to know if CAL had buddies visiting him at his home frequently though.

[donna]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Me too donna, been missing ya and hope all is well.

That really does tighten the time line as we have discussed for anyone believing Cesar did it all alone. Hmmm....:o

I see room for Cesar to come back and start coming up with the information they may or may not need to NAIL IT DOWN IMO. :eek:

jmo [/*]


:seeya:

Hi, CANDY!
Yes, that is certainly a tight timeline! I cannot understand how he could have accomplished all he had to have done in that timeframe alone.

I wonder if CAL will nail it down, or if he will even talk before trial? I am so looking forward this trial, and hearing what CAL's attorney's say in his defense in court!

[caejde]

Originally posted by strick10


Not hard to understand what CS is saying in regards to the DOD Squawk. I understand they are basing that date with what is known to them as definately knowing she was alive up to 5:00. What's hard for me to understand are the events that happened from the time Maria arrived at the L's at approximately 5:30 to 7:00. An hour and a half is a superbly tight timeline to accomplish what is being said CAL accomplished. [/*]

Especially since he says they believe she was killed the evening of the 14th. And I agree with what you said as well!

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by strick10


Not hard to understand what CS is saying in regards to the DOD Squawk. I understand they are basing that date with what is known to them as definately knowing she was alive up to 5:00. What's hard for me to understand are the events that happened from the time Maria arrived at the L's at approximately 5:30 to 7:00. An hour and a half is a superbly tight timeline to accomplish what is being said CAL accomplished. [/*]

I agree with that now. What gave me pause is the missing clothes from the waist down on Maria's body. At that time, if he raped her again, the time line was getting to be impossible.

I believe he got rid of the car by moving it to the parking lot 3/4 mile away. From the beginning I have believed he had to move the car close by temporarily. If it was that exact parking lot is my speculation. It could have been somewhere else.

I think his clean up after the murder was the moving of the car, and blood by quickly washing most of it and covering some with items in the garage. I think he might have placed the body under the pool wrapped up in the old comforter or he could have placed it in the pool.

He would have had to bury her quickly after that, within the next couple of days, because of the smell getting worse the more days pass.

I believe at first he did what he had to do to cover this from Christina. Over the next couple of days he completed his clean up.

All of this post is MOO.

[donna]

Originally posted by strick10


Carry on...:lol: I've always thought there was more than CAL involved in the murder. Can't say for sure whom the other(s) are though? It'd be nice to know if CAL had buddies visiting him at his home frequently though. [/*]

Hi, strick10!

I do not feel like CAL acted alone either. We do know he had several buddies at his home for bonfires tho! Wonder how many attended.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Good Morning Cryme!

I don't know. I wasn't aware that the family or an attorney participated in the death certificate. I always thought that was issued strictly from a medical examiner's information or of course if it is from natural causes the doctor in care of the deceased can sign the death certificate.....at least in my state.

I think there is a time window of 10 days after knowledge of death to file the DC. However it can happen much sooner than the 10 days...depending on the urgency. When was Maria and Gabriel buried?

imoo [/*]

But the medical examiner couldn't have provided the information such as place of birth, mother's name, social security number, etc....

That info had to come from a family member or someone representing the family.

The autopsy doesn't list a date of death. I question why the 16th is even given, being that the family says the 15th, and LE says the 14th. Where is the 16th gleaned from?



:shrug:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by donna


Hi, strick10!

I do not feel like CAL acted alone either. We do know he had several buddies at his home for bonfires tho! Wonder how many attended. [/*]

Again I would like to point out no one else in under arrest. They would be by now, rest assured on that.

jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Again I would like to point out no one else in under arrest. They would be by now, rest assured on that.

jmo [/*]

No they wouldn't. And you can rest assured on that.

;)

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


No they wouldn't. And you can rest assured on that.

;) [/*]


Really, how would you know that?:D

[caejde]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


No they wouldn't. And you can rest assured on that.

;) [/*]

IA...what authorities believe and what they can prove is 2 very different things. They may believe/suspect Cesar had help but unless they have probable cause they can't do anything.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by caejde


IA...what authorities believe and what they can prove is 2 very different things. They may believe/suspect Cesar had help but unless they have probable cause they can't do anything. [/*]

The point is they have no probable cause. The friend at Lowe's, Christina, if a friend was at Cesar's house that helped and still there when Christina got home she would have told police. No one. The neighbors didn't mention any visitors there.

jmo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


But the medical examiner couldn't have provided the information such as place of birth, mother's name, social security number, etc....

That info had to come from a family member or someone representing the family.

The autopsy doesn't list a date of death. I question why the 16th is even given, being that the family says the 15th, and LE says the 14th. Where is the 16th gleaned from?



:shrug: [/*]

Wouldn't that be on file through a birth certificate or the MC record.

I know when I received the death certificate on my father I had not given them any of his personal information such as where he was born/DOB/DOD nor his mother's maiden name yet when I received the DC that information was on there.:shrug:

imoo

[donna]

CAL would have probably gotten blood on himself. He also would have had to have cleaning supplies. Also, what did he use to cover up the smell of blood? Did he wash his clothes and his cleaning rags?
All of the rushing around he would have had to do, then appear to be calm, cool, and collected when Christina came in from the Christmas party?
As for a friend helping him, he would have to trust that friend to never say a word. When someone other than the actual murderer knows about it, it is a liability for the murderer. If CAL had help, I hope that person decides to talk. Chances of that are slim, IMO, after all this time.

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I agree with that now. What gave me pause is the missing clothes from the waist down on Maria's body. At that time, if he raped her again, the time line was getting to be impossible.

I believe he got rid of the car by moving it to the parking lot 3/4 mile away. From the beginning I have believed he had to move the car close by temporarily. If it was that exact parking lot is my speculation. It could have been somewhere else.

I think his clean up after the murder was the moving of the car, and blood by quickly washing most of it and covering some with items in the garage. I think he might have placed the body under the pool wrapped up in the old comforter or he could have placed it in the pool.

He would have had to bury her quickly after that, within the next couple of days, because of the smell getting worse the more days pass.

I believe at first he did what he had to do to cover this from Christina. Over the next couple of days he completed his clean up.

All of this post is MOO. [/*]
Okay, let's see if we can come up w/ an estimated timeline for the events.

Maria purchases ticket at 5:00
Maria leaves bus station at 5:05
Maria arrives at L's at 5:30 (not sure if it would only take 1/2 hour may have taken 10 to 15 min. more) Any posters have a closer travel time?
Maria talks to CAL blah, blah, blah maybe 15 min. so we're at 5:45
Maria is murdered and it takes the murderer a few minutes to compose themselves and to think of their next stepsso we're at let's say 5:50
The murderer moves the car to the lot and walks back lets say that will take about 15 min. so we're at 6:05.

Any posters want to add the remainder or change anything?

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Wouldn't that be on file through a birth certificate or the MC record.

I know when I received the death certificate on my father I had not given them any of his personal information such as where he was born/DOB/DOD nor his mother's maiden name yet when I received the DC that information was on there.:shrug:

imoo [/*]

That information is given to the funeral home by the family. jmo

[donna]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Again I would like to point out no one else in under arrest. They would be by now, rest assured on that.

jmo [/*]

Maybe not. LE has to leave their options open. I rest assured of that!

:D

[gaelicpeas]

I think the timeline is even tighter than 5:30 to 7:00. IF we can believe CL's "novellas" (which, I agree, is a big IF), then he went with ML to help her buy the bus ticket. That, according to the bus station attendant, was "around 5". Then, CL says that ML came back to his house "later that evening".

If he helped her buy the bus ticket, then I am assuming that he knew she bought it for the 15th. The bus station attendant says ML drove away - we don't know if she drove away immediately, or waited around to see if she could get on the 5:20 bus only to find out it was full (my assumption).

So, if she drove away immediately, then she would have been right behind CL, and to me, that isn't "later in the evening" - that is more like she came "right back" to the house.

Anyway (sorry this is rambling!), to me, she either left the bus station at 5:20 or 5:25, arriving at CL's around 6:00... or she went somewhere else (maybe for dinner?), and then showed up at CL's house "later that evening", putting her at CL's house even later than 6:00.

All JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by donna


Maybe not. LE has to leave their options open. I rest assured of that!

:D [/*]

Wise woman donna, and I am not betting the farm on it being wrapped up tight either. :D

JMO.

Hopefully Cesar and Christina will be talking it up when he is captured. AGAIN, JMO.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by strick10

Okay, let's see if we can come up w/ an estimated timeline for the events.

Maria purchases ticket at 5:00
Maria leaves bus station at 5:05
Maria arrives at L's at 5:30 (not sure if it would only take 1/2 hour may have taken 10 to 15 min. more) Any posters have a closer travel time?
Maria talks to CAL blah, blah, blah maybe 15 min. so we're at 5:45
Maria is murdered and it takes the murderer a few minutes to compose themselves and to think of their next stepsso we're at let's say 5:50
The murderer moves the car to the lot and walks back lets say that will take about 15 min. so we're at 6:05.

Any posters want to add the remainder or change anything? [/*]

6:05 to 6:30 wraps Maria in an old comforter and puts her under or in the pool.

6:30 to 6:45 wipes up any visable blood with water and covers with boxes.

6:45 to 7:00p throws his clothes in a trash bag along with Maria's for disposal later.

7:00 pm jumps in shower where he is when Christina gets home.

Next two days finishes burial and clean up.

jmo

[donna]

Originally posted by strick10

Okay, let's see if we can come up w/ an estimated timeline for the events.

Maria purchases ticket at 5:00
Maria leaves bus station at 5:05
Maria arrives at L's at 5:30 (not sure if it would only take 1/2 hour may have taken 10 to 15 min. more) Any posters have a closer travel time?
Maria talks to CAL blah, blah, blah maybe 15 min. so we're at 5:45
Maria is murdered and it takes the murderer a few minutes to compose themselves and to think of their next stepsso we're at let's say 5:50
The murderer moves the car to the lot and walks back lets say that will take about 15 min. so we're at 6:05.

Any posters want to add the remainder or change anything? [/*]

Well, CAL would have to clean himself up and dispose of the cleaning rags/towels, and clean the blood up. He probably used a garden hose for the floor of the garage. That is what caused the pooling under the plastic containers in the garage, IMO.
All of your list, plus cleaning himself up, would take time. More time than he had before CSL got home, IMO.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by donna


Maybe not. LE has to leave their options open. I rest assured of that!

:D [/*]

Don't bet the farm on any other arrests.:D

[donna]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Wise woman donna, and I am not betting the farm on it being wrapped up tight either. :D

JMO.

Hopefully Cesar and Christina will be talking it up when he is captured. AGAIN, JMO. [/*]

Right. It ain't wrapped up until LE says it is! IMO, they will not do that until CAL is brought back! LE certainly cannot clear CSL!

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by strick10

Okay, let's see if we can come up w/ an estimated timeline for the events.

Maria purchases ticket at 5:00
Maria leaves bus station at 5:05
Maria arrives at L's at 5:30 (not sure if it would only take 1/2 hour may have taken 10 to 15 min. more) Any posters have a closer travel time?
Maria talks to CAL blah, blah, blah maybe 15 min. so we're at 5:45
Maria is murdered and it takes the murderer a few minutes to compose themselves and to think of their next stepsso we're at let's say 5:50
The murderer moves the car to the lot and walks back lets say that will take about 15 min. so we're at 6:05.

Any posters want to add the remainder or change anything? [/*]

The car is a big issue. Unless he was in touch with CSL by phone (which is a possibility), he had no idea when CSL would come traipsing through the front door. I am thinking he just moved the car down the street, maybe to his buddy's house since CSL wouldn't drive to the end of the cul-de-sac anyway... she would just pull straight into their driveway, the second house in... or maybe he drove ML's car to the nearest street - some street CSL wouldn't drive on.

Then he had to quickly clean up... or maybe he cleaned up first, then moved the car. He could have moved the car to the auto repair shop or somewhere later...

JMO

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Again I would like to point out no one else in under arrest. They would be by now, rest assured on that.

jmo [/*]

I don't know Squawk. There's no one arrested or charged yet as perhaps there's some information that hasn't come forward. That info could be info that CAL may be the only one to have. I think there's someone else involved, not necessarily CSL, and that someone may not have had their hands in on the actual murder but the events surrounding the murder.

[donna]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Don't bet the farm on any other arrests.:D [/*]

First, I do not have a farm, and second, LE cannot afford to be closeminded. At this point, anything is possible.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by donna


Well, CAL would have to clean himself up and dispose of the cleaning rags/towels, and clean the blood up. He probably used a garden hose for the floor of the garage. That is what caused the pooling under the plastic containers in the garage, IMO.
All of your list, plus cleaning himself up, would take time. More time than he had before CSL got home, IMO. [/*]

You bet and just imagine trying to get the other blood cleaned up and what he did with the rags or whatever he used. But only Cesar saw anything....:o

Not buyin' it. JMO tho. :shrug:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


That information is given to the funeral home by the family. jmo [/*]

I never had to give them my father's mother's maiden name and I was the one in charge of the funeral arrangements.

They did take down general information for his obit but it did not involve his mother's maiden name. The only place I know that was recorded before his death was on his birth certificate.

They would tell the funeral home Maria was a "soldier"? I highly doubt that because that is a big no no if one is a Marine.

imoo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by strick10


I don't know Squawk. There's no one arrested or charged yet as perhaps there's some information that hasn't come forward. That info could be info that CAL may be the only one to have. I think there's someone else involved, not necessarily CSL, and that someone may not have had their hands in on the actual murder but the events surrounding the murder. [/*]

I am reminded of a post I saw once authored by the Captain talking about all that is needed NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW.

So they may be waiting for all that is needed....JMO. :eek:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


You bet and just imagine trying to get the other blood cleaned up and what he did with the rags or whatever he used. But only Cesar saw anything....:o

Not buyin' it. JMO tho. :shrug: [/*]

I don't buy it for one second, either.

imoo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by strick10


I don't know Squawk. There's no one arrested or charged yet as perhaps there's some information that hasn't come forward. That info could be info that CAL may be the only one to have. I think there's someone else involved, not necessarily CSL, and that someone may not have had their hands in on the actual murder but the events surrounding the murder. [/*]

I believe there are witness to what Christina and Cesar were doing leading up to the murder and after the murder. The more time goes by without an accessory being arrested is what makes me believe there are none.

As far as Cesar talking when he gets back the chances of that remain very up in the air because he doesn't have to.

Even if he does, it would have to match up with whatever LE has from their investigation and unless his story does it won't be very credible. If he is going to go to trial, he would be a fool to talk.

jmo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by strick10

Okay, let's see if we can come up w/ an estimated time line for the events.

Maria purchases ticket at 5:00
Maria leaves bus station at 5:05
Maria arrives at L's at 5:30 (not sure if it would only take 1/2 hour may have taken 10 to 15 min. more) Any posters have a closer travel time?
Maria talks to CAL blah, blah, blah maybe 15 min. so we're at 5:45
Maria is murdered and it takes the murderer a few minutes to compose themselves and to think of their next stepsso we're at let's say 5:50
The murderer moves the car to the lot and walks back lets say that will take about 15 min. so we're at 6:05.

Any posters want to add the remainder or change anything? [/*]

Well Nuttin has said that on a holiday payday that Friday at that time of day it would take 45 minutes for Maria to go back to Laurean's home and that is considering she went straight back which that is not what he said since he said she came back "later in the evening":eek:

imoo

[donna]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


You bet and just imagine trying to get the other blood cleaned up and what he did with the rags or whatever he used. But only Cesar saw anything....:o

Not buyin' it. JMO tho. :shrug: [/*]

I do not buy it either. And I certainly would not want there to be an investigator in the case so closeminded so as to firmly believe at this point that Christina did know or see anything.
The ivestigation is ongoing. All information is not in, and conclusions are not possible yet. I have not heard LE state that the case is wrapped up, and/or anyone has been cleared.

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


6:05 to 6:30 wraps Maria in an old comforter and puts her under or in the pool.

6:30 to 6:45 wipes up any visable blood with water and covers with boxes.

6:45 to 7:00p throws his clothes in a trash bag along with Maria's for disposal later.

7:00 pm jumps in shower where he is when Christina gets home.

Next two days finishes burial and clean up.

jmo [/*]

I think it would take more than 15 min. to clean up visible blood in the garage and in the house. Wonder what he used to clean? Towels, another comforter, mop or like some posters think that he brought in the water hose which would've taken even more time and would have made a bigger mess w/ all the junk they had inthe garage.
I'm really gonna have to think about the events and time line super hard. Again, there's too many could haves even for this tight timeline.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


6:05 to 6:30 wraps Maria in an old comforter and puts her under or in the pool.

6:30 to 6:45 wipes up any visable blood with water and covers with boxes.

6:45 to 7:00p throws his clothes in a trash bag along with Maria's for disposal later.

7:00 pm jumps in shower where he is when Christina gets home.

Next two days finishes burial and clean up.

jmo [/*]

So Christina is not only oblivious to events of the 14th, but also the next two days?

Might want to hold on to that farm....

Just sayin'...

[CANDYKISSES]

Nobody knows what he will do or not do because we still don't know if he and Christina made a deal and he coughed up the love letters IMHO.

Given that if he is caught in the USA, the death penalty could be on the table and he might realize telling the truth {if it is different from the letters} is the way to go. That would shake things up in a hurry IMO. :eek:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I never had to give them my father's mother's maiden name and I was the one in charge of the funeral arrangements.

They did take down general information for his obit but it did not involve his mother's maiden name. The only place I know that was recorded before his death was on his birth certificate.

They would tell the funeral home Maria was a "soldier"? I highly doubt that because that is a big no no if one is a Marine.

imoo [/*]

Well, that's you, I did. Were any medical records sent with them from where they died, like a hospital?

Every single case is different. Nothing is exactly the same. You have to keep and open mind. jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


So Christina is not only oblivious to events of the 14th, but also the next two days?

Might want to hold on to that farm....

Just sayin'... [/*]

;) Ya think?

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES
Nobody knows what he will do or not do because we still don't know if he and Christina made a deal and he coughed up the love letters IMHO.

Given that if he is caught in the USA, the death penalty could be on the table and he might realize telling the truth {if it is different from the letters} is the way to go. That would shake things up in a hurry IMO. :eek: [/*]

lol as if he would ever tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. He will be self serving. It might give the defense some fodder for a trial, but LE and the DA are not dumb. jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by donna


I do not buy it either. And I certainly would not want there to be an investigator in the case so closeminded so as to firmly believe at this point that Christina did know or see anything.
The ivestigation is ongoing. All information is not in, and conclusions are not possible yet. I have not heard LE state that the case is wrapped up, and/or anyone has been cleared. [/*]

ITA donna. This is how travesties to the justice system are committed and I remember DA Hudson reminding everyone this would be nothing like the previous faux pas under the reign of the Durham DA.

JMO and paraphrased on Hudson. :patriot:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


So Christina is not only oblivious to events of the 14th, but also the next two days?

Might want to hold on to that farm....

Just sayin'... [/*]

Ya think she would follow him around with her eyeball on him every minute of the weekend? Maybe she had to go out. Grocery store, drug store, shopping, visiting her sister, taking her child to the park, just to name a few.

jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


lol as if he would ever tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. He will be self serving. It might give the defense some fodder for a trial, but LE and the DA are not dumb. jmo [/*]

Do you know Cesar personally and know he would never tell the truth?

And as far as "self serving" statements, the same could be said of Christina, no?

And you're right, LE and the DA are not dumb.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


ITA donna. This is how travesties to the justice system are committed and I remember DA Hudson reminding everyone this would be nothing like the previous faux pas under the reign of the Durham DA.

JMO and paraphrased on Hudson. :patriot: [/*]


:confused:

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I believe there are witness to what Christina and Cesar were doing leading up to the murder and after the murder. The more time goes by without an accessory being arrested is what makes me believe there are none.

As far as Cesar talking when he gets back the chances of that remain very up in the air because he doesn't have to.

Even if he does, it would have to match up with whatever LE has from their investigation and unless his story does it won't be very credible. If he is going to go to trial, he would be a fool to talk.

jmo [/*]

There are witnesses as to where Christina was until about 6:30 pm. Obviously, if she was at work and didn't get out till 4:30, that can be verified by her boss. She was at the party from 4:45 to about 6:30. That can be verified by the people that were at the party. Who can verify where she was after 6:30? Right now no one but her and she says she got home at 7:00. I go back to CALs note that says that Maria returned later that evening, what time would that be? As far as CAL no one can account to what he was doing or where he was after noon that day. Only his notes tell us what he did and where he was.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Ya think she would follow him around with her eyeball on him every minute of the weekend? Maybe she had to go out. Grocery store, drug store, shopping, visiting her sister, taking her child to the park, just to name a few.

jmo [/*]

Oh sure, Christina's a busy lady.

She's gone all day, both days, and her husband - in broad daylight no less - is dragging a body from the pool to the backyard to bury.

You know, one day you're gonna run out of excuses for her oblivion.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Do you know Cesar personally and know he would never tell the truth?

And as far as "self serving" statements, the same could be said of Christina, no?

And you're right, LE and the DA are not dumb. [/*]

NO their not and Christina is not under arrest either. The more time goes by the more unlikely that is. Nope, the stellar Marine is all alone in this one. imo

[strick10]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Well Nuttin has said that on a holiday payday that Friday at that time of day it would take 45 minutes for Maria to go back to Laurean's home and that is considering she went straight back which that is not what he said since he said she came back "later in the evening":eek:

imoo [/*]

Now that you mention it I remember nuttin saying that. Well that changes the timeline. "Later that evening" would be what time to you GB?

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Oh sure, Christina's a busy lady.

She's gone all day, both days, and her husband - in broad daylight no less - is dragging a body from the pool to the backyard to bury.

You know, one day you're gonna run out of excuses for her oblivion. [/*]

Who said in broad daylight? jmo

Maybe Cesar sent his wife off to a movie with her sister one evening. Just never know, but LE does.

jmo

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by strick10


Now that you mention it I remember nuttin saying that. Well that changes the timeline. "Later that evening" would be what time to you GB? [/*]

Strick, upthread on the previous page, I posted some of my thoughts on this, as well as incorporating Gentle's earlier suggestion that maybe ML stopped for dinner before returning to CL's house.

Of course, all of this is dependent on CL's notes - and to me, that is a big IF in this equation.

JMO

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Who said in broad daylight? jmo

Maybe Cesar sent his wife off to a movie with her sister one evening. Just never know, but LE does.

jmo [/*]

Shall I put this on the list of "Things Christina was too busy with to notice anything"?

:D

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


NO their not and Christina is not under arrest either. The more time goes by the more unlikely that is. Nope, the stellar Marine is all alone in this one. imo [/*]

So much time has already gone by....and still she's not cleared.

Tick, tock....

[donna]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


ITA donna. This is how travesties to the justice system are committed and I remember DA Hudson reminding everyone this would be nothing like the previous faux pas under the reign of the Durham DA.

JMO and paraphrased on Hudson. :patriot: [/*]

I want anyone charged with a crime to have justice. Investigations and especially trials have to be done according to law. It is just as bad for an innocent person to be found guilty of a crime he/she did not committ as it is for a guilty person to 'walk' on a technicality.
IMO, DA Hudson will not charge something he does not have the evidence to back up. Even if it is circumstancial evidence. There is a lot of circumstancial evidence so far in this case pointing toward CAL. I want him to have a fair trial. I also want any and all accomplices (if there are any) to be charged and have a fair trial.

:patriot: ... Thank God we live in America! We have our military men and women to thank for defending our freedom, and our constitution for our rights.

[scillak]

I am wondering something. A lot of "ifs" here like my last post... Please don't jump on the assumptions. I realize they are just that.

IF Maria and Cesar had some sort of relationship after the dates that she gave of the rapes - then I would think that an attorney would have told him that even if the baby was his, Maria would not be able to prove rape. So, if he could come up with any proof of a relationship, he'd be in the clear.

If the above happened, then Cesar would have to fess up to the Marine Corps that he had in fact had sexual relations "with that woman". And he most likely would have to fess up to his wife somewhere in that process.

If all of that happened, what would the Marine Corps likely have done to Cesar? He would have committed adultery and lied. He was starting as stellar in their eyes. I imagine it's a guess, but you folks with lots of MC background - what do you guess would have happened to him?

I am just wondering because he would have been fearing two things - admitting the relationship to Christina and confessing to the Marine Corps (and financial responsibility for the child might have weighed on him, also). His marriage might have been ruined. Would his career have been ruined?

[caejde]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Shall I put this on the list of "Things Christina was too busy with to notice anything"?

:D [/*]

I don't work now, but when I did work, the last thing I wanted was a busy weekend and spending the whole weekend shopping, going to movies, etc. Even now not working, I want quiet, enjoyable weekends to spend with my husband and children.

[gaelicpeas]

One possibility suggested a few days ago by Nelkirk, I think, or maybe somebody else, was that maybe CL told CSL not to go into the garage that night - maybe he told her that he had a Christmas surprise in there for her?

This is risky, though, unless he could somehow lock all the doors to the garage (and this also assumes CSL didn't have keys, which is doubtful). Some people like to "peek" when told that!

JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
One possibility suggested a few days ago by Nelkirk, I think, or maybe somebody else, was that maybe CL told CSL not to go into the garage that night - maybe he told her that he had a Christmas surprise in there for her?

This is risky, though, unless he could somehow lock all the doors to the garage (and this also assumes CSL didn't have keys, which is doubtful). Some people like to "peek" when told that!

JMO [/*]

Well, that has always worked for me when I think that MERCEDES COUPE I've been waiting for is inside.....:tongue: JMO.

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


NO their not and Christina is not under arrest either. The more time goes by the more unlikely that is. Nope, the stellar Marine is all alone in this one. imo [/*]

Is that the norm when it comes to investigations that the more time goes by the more unlikely they will charge someone else as well? I don't know that's why I'm asking.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Well, that has always worked for me when I think that MERCEDES COUPE I've been waiting for is inside.....:tongue: JMO. [/*]

Darn, I don't even have a garage. That's got to be the only reason I've never gotten a Mercedes - no place to hide it?

:mad:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by strick10


Now that you mention it I remember nuttin saying that. Well that changes the timeline. "Later that evening" would be what time to you GB? [/*]

I don't really know strict but even Sutherland is using that same terminology, in the evening.

I would think it would be sometime around 7ish. I sure don't think they went in the same vehicle to buy the ticket where they could be seen together by Marines that may have known them and so far no one has said they saw either one of them even in close proximity to each other out in Jacksonville that day. So I think he went back home after he had assisted her in getting the ticket. I think he most likely went and made a ATM withdrawal for the ticket purchase and gave her the money. That is why I think he may not have been aware that she couldn't get the ticket for the 14th and that is why he said she told him when she returned her plans had fallen through.

It just seems like if she immediately returned he would have said "she came right back to my house" (example only)

imoo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by strick10


There are witnesses as to where Christina was until about 6:30 pm. Obviously, if she was at work and didn't get out till 4:30, that can be verified by her boss. She was at the party from 4:45 to about 6:30. That can be verified by the people that were at the party. Who can verify where she was after 6:30? Right now no one but her and she says she got home at 7:00. I go back to CALs note that says that Maria returned later that evening, what time would that be? As far as CAL no one can account to what he was doing or where he was after noon that day. Only his notes tell us what he did and where he was. [/*]

If she were at the party until 6:30pm which I don't remember seeing anything on that, she still had to drive home. That could take a half hour.

Cesar's note is self serving. I don't believe any of it. Really we don't even know what all was in that note.

AMW made it look like a letter to me.

We KNOW where he was close to 5 pm that day. I'm sure witnesses are around who can say what Cesar was doing that day the same as Christina. I bet those detectives have conducted hundreds of interviews. CS said they were working very hard on this in his last missive. Paraphrasing.


LE knows.

jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


If she were at the party until 6:30pm which I don't remember seeing anything on that, she still had to drive home. That could take a half hour.

Cesar's note is self serving. I don't believe any of it. Really we don't even know what all was in that note.

AMW made it look like a letter to me.

We KNOW where he was close to 5 pm that day. I'm sure witnesses are around who can say what Cesar was doing that day the same as Christina. I bet those detectives have conducted hundreds of interviews. CS said they were working very hard on this in his last missive. Paraphrasing.


LE knows.

jmo [/*]

How do we KNOW where Cesar was at 5 p.m. that day? You got a link 'cause I missed that one?

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Shall I put this on the list of "Things Christina was too busy with to notice anything"?

:D [/*]


Sure, but add Cesar was much to sneaky to let her see anything.:D

[caejde]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


If she were at the party until 6:30pm which I don't remember seeing anything on that, she still had to drive home. That could take a half hour.

**snipped

[/*]

Right, that half hour drive puts Christina home at 7...which is what she's said. So to me if she were home at 7, she left the party around 6:30.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by caejde


I don't work now, but when I did work, the last thing I wanted was a busy weekend and spending the whole weekend shopping, going to movies, etc. Even now not working, I want quiet, enjoyable weekends to spend with my husband and children. [/*]

I agree about liking quiet weekends. This was 10 days before Christmas, though, so I think it is reasonable that CSL could have been busy shopping that weekend. But who knows...

JMO

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


How do we KNOW where Cesar was at 5 p.m. that day? You got a link 'cause I missed that one? [/*]

That is when he killed her. Close to 5 pm and before 7 pm. THAT IS MY OPINION.

[donna]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Darn, I don't even have a garage. That's got to be the only reason I've never gotten a Mercedes - no place to hide it?

:mad: [/*]

If my husband had told me NOT to look somewhere, the moment he went to sleep that would be the FIRST thing I would do! Just being honest here!

:D ... I never got a Mercedes either.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by donna


If my husband had told me NOT to look somewhere, the moment he went to sleep that would be the FIRST thing I would do! Just being honest here!

:D ... I never got a Mercedes either. [/*]

Well you know the old adage "If you build it, they will come"...I'm gonna have a contractor come and start my garage and then wait for my Mercedes to appear in it!


:D

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


That is when he killed her. Close to 5 pm and before 7 pm. THAT IS MY OPINION. [/*]

So that was or wasn't Maria at the bus station at 5?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


Strick, upthread on the previous page, I posted some of my thoughts on this, as well as incorporating Gentle's earlier suggestion that maybe ML stopped for dinner before returning to CL's house.

Of course, all of this is dependent on CL's notes - and to me, that is a big IF in this equation.

JMO [/*]

I do wonder if she did stop off for a fast bite.

Even if she ate something at noon she would surely be getting hungry around 5pm I would think and she was right there in a Jacksonville where she could stop and grab her something to eat. We also don't know if she may have decided to stop off and buy Gabriel a little outfit.

I just don't see any reason for him to say later in the evening and it not be truthful. What difference would it make to him either way, really? It does conform with us knowing she was 45 minutes away from his home when the bus station ticket was purchased around 5 pm and Sutherland still is saying SHE is the one that bought the ticket.

imoo

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


How do we KNOW where Cesar was at 5 p.m. that day? You got a link 'cause I missed that one? [/*]

IF CL went with ML to help her buy the bus ticket, that would be around 5 pm.

Of course, it could be that he went to an ATM, made a withdrawal, met ML somewhere (maybe at his house, maybe at the bus station) and that is what he meant by "helping her buy the ticket".

JMO

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


If she were at the party until 6:30pm which I don't remember seeing anything on that, she still had to drive home. That could take a half hour.

Cesar's note is self serving. I don't believe any of it. Really we don't even know what all was in that note.

AMW made it look like a letter to me.

We KNOW where he was close to 5 pm that day. I'm sure witnesses are around who can say what Cesar was doing that day the same as Christina. I bet those detectives have conducted hundreds of interviews. CS said they were working very hard on this in his last missive. Paraphrasing.


LE knows.

jmo [/*]

I'm sure that LE has confirmed that she was at the party till 6:30 even if they haven't released that. If she wasn't at the party till 6:30 where was she? If she wasn't at the party until 6:30 wouldn't LE be all over that? Which by the way there probably weren't that many people left at the party by that time.

That's what I'm saying that she probably has witnesses that can place her at the party until 6:30 being that it took about 1/2 hour to get home by 7:00.

So if there's no truth to CALs letter that means he wasn't involved in any of this. There are some truths to his letter even if they are 1/2 truths. And if there's no truth to CALs letter we can't say we know where he was at 5:00. 'member he is the one that said he went w/ Maria to the bus station.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


That is when he killed her. Close to 5 pm and before 7 pm. THAT IS MY OPINION. [/*]

So you are saying that Sutherland has it wrong when he said Maria was the one that purchased the bus ticket?

That was around 5 pm and it takes 45 minutes to get back to his home.:confused:

imoo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by strick10


Now that you mention it I remember nuttin saying that. Well that changes the timeline. "Later that evening" would be what time to you GB? [/*]

It could have taken her up to 45 minutes, I was throwing in to that mix that perhaps Maria was unsure of exactly where CAL lived. And I also considered it was military payday along with the last payday before Christmas.

There are two ways of getting to Meadow Trail from the bus station. One is Onslow to Henderson to Western Blvd. extension to Gum Branch. The second is Onslow to Hwy. 17 to Western Blvd. extension and then to Gum Branch.

Now caejde has traveled the area since and she said on a payday Friday (IIRC) it took her about 20 minutes. I think she also took the Henderson route to Gum Branch.

And another thing---CSL's drive time from the FC area on base to her house would have taken her 45 minutes in drive time.

Regardless of the time it took for Maria to arrive at Meadow Trail, the timeline is still extremely close, IMO, to have some, most or all clean up done prior to CSL's arrival home around 7 p.m. on 12/14/07.

JMO

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I do wonder if she did stop off for a fast bite.

Even if she ate something at noon she would surely be getting hungry around 5pm I would think and she was right there in a Jacksonville where she could stop and grab her something to eat. We also don't know if she may have decided to stop off and buy Gabriel a little outfit.

I just don't see any reason for him to say later in the evening and it not be truthful. What difference would it make to him either way, really? It does conform with us knowing she was 45 minutes away from his home when the bus station ticket was purchased around 5 pm and Sutherland still is saying SHE is the one that bought the ticket.

imoo [/*]

I don't see why he claimed the "suicide" in the notes either. What difference was it going to make? He was leaving for good, he may as well have confessed to the murder.

At least then I could get into the "Christina was horrified" excuse.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


But why is anyone going with the 16th? Is there some special significance to that date as opposed to the 14th or even the 15th?

The 16th is not even listed on the autopsy is it?


:shrug: [/*]

It's listed by the ME somewhere, iirc. On that Report of Investigation? The one where they have last known alive on 12/15?

[donna]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Well you know the old adage "If you build it, they will come"...I'm gonna have a contractor come and start my garage and then wait for my Mercedes to appear in it!


:D [/*]

:D

(I DID get a beautiful set of Aubusson rugs for Christmas in 2000, tho!)

I think he may have put Maria's body under the edge of the pool. He could not have put her IN the pool, tho, IMO, because he definately would have had to have help to lift her out of it. Rather simple to put her in there, but another thing altogether to actually lift her body out. IMO.
He would have had to hose the garage out that evening and was in too much of a hurry to make sure it was done well, IMO.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by caejde


Right, that half hour drive puts Christina home at 7...which is what she's said. So to me if she were home at 7, she left the party around 6:30. [/*]

I would think CSL left around 6:15 since FC is just about smack dab in the middle of CLNC.

But really in the grand scheme of things, whether she left at 6:15 or 6:30 doesn't make either here or there...she told OCSD investigator's she arrived home at 7 p.m. so that's what they have to work with.


jmoo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by strick10


Is that the norm when it comes to investigations that the more time goes by the more unlikely they will charge someone else as well? I don't know that's why I'm asking. [/*]

Pretty much in a case like this. The first 48 hours is very important in a homicide case although this one could have never been solved in 48 hours. They have interviewed many witnesses to get to the truth and I believe if Christina had been involved in the murder and cover up they would know by now and charge her. LE won't say she is in the clear however, because they don't have to. CS said if they had any probable cause to charge her they would.

jmo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


So you are saying that Sutherland has it wrong when he said Maria was the one that purchased the bus ticket?

That was around 5 pm and it takes 45 minutes to get back to his home.:confused:

imoo [/*]

:confused:

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by daniel green


It's listed by the ME somewhere, iirc. On that Report of Investigation? The one where they have last known alive on 12/15? [/*]

I have the ME's IR in front of me.

It states:

1) Onset of Injury or Illness: +/- 12/16/07 Time ? Address as Meadow Trail

2) Death: +/- 12/16/07 Time ? Address as Meadow Trail

3) View of Body: 1/12/08 at 0915 At Hospital

4) ME Notified: 1/11/08 at +/- 1630

5) Last Know To Be Alive: 12/15/07 Time ?

Dr. G's signature is dated 1/16/08

[strick10]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I do wonder if she did stop off for a fast bite.

Even if she ate something at noon she would surely be getting hungry around 5pm I would think and she was right there in a Jacksonville where she could stop and grab her something to eat. We also don't know if she may have decided to stop off and buy Gabriel a little outfit.

I just don't see any reason for him to say later in the evening and it not be truthful. What difference would it make to him either way, really? It does conform with us knowing she was 45 minutes away from his home when the bus station ticket was purchased around 5 pm and Sutherland still is saying SHE is the one that bought the ticket.

imoo [/*]

I think she bought the babys' outfit(s) that day after she talked to her mother and before going to the ATM.

Why not just say she came back later, why specify a time line.....hmmmmm

[daniel green]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


The date of death, in a case like this, is determined by LE through their investigation. snipped[/*]

NO.
http://www.ocme.unc.edu/rules/guidelines.shtml


4. The medical examiner's jurisdiction attaches at death (this includes the determination of brain death) or upon the finding of a dead body. The ME has no jurisdiction over living persons. The place where death is pronounced or where a dead body is first found determines jurisdiction. The ME's geographic jurisdiction ordinarily extends to the borders of the county in which he/she is appointed to serve but is not necessarily limited to that county should it prove expedient to take jurisdiction in a death in an adjacent county. Note that the medical examiner's jurisdiction is determined by the place where the body is found, not necessarily by the place where the cause of death was inflicted.

The ME should relay findings to the appropriate law enforcement agencies at the place where the cause of death was inflicted if it is determined to be different from the county of death. He/she should also determine, based on investigation, where and when death actually occurred. (This may NOT be the same place where death was pronounced or the body found.) It is not the ME's job to pronounce people dead. For the purposes of our system, pronouncement of death occurs when the first person decides that an individual is dead.


5. The ME must personally view every dead body over which he/she assumes jurisdiction. The body should be critically inspected, including the back, both before and after removal of clothing. The ME must be alert for signs of violence, trauma, poisoning, etc. Obtaining a medical and social history of the decedent to help explain the cause and manner of death is a basic part of the investigation. He/she must be satisfied that any signs of injury are consistent with the history presented, and that when the death is thought to be from natural causes that no discordant evidence of injury is present. Consultation with law enforcement agencies is to be obtained in all relevant deaths. In some instances a ME may be asked to investigate a death after a body has been buried or cremated. Viewing of the body will, of course, be impossible and the investigation will be limited to a historical review of the circumstances of death and whatever observations about the body were made at the time. The ME should indicate that the body was not viewed and why, but go ahead and send in a report of investigation and prepare a ME death certificate.

6. The medical examiner has the authority to order an autopsy when, in his/her opinion, it is advisable and in the public interest. This power is to be used judiciously. If in doubt as to the advisability of ordering an autopsy, consultation is to be sought from the OCME or from the Regional Pathologist. In the event of a difference of opinion between a ME and a regional pathologist, the OCME may be contacted to resolve the issue.
Medical Examiners should order an autopsy on:
a. all homicides and suspected homicides
*. suspected drug related deaths, illicit or prescription
c. deaths in jail, prison, or under law enforcement custody or control
d. hit and run accidents
e. victims alleged to have been lying in the roadway or on railroadtracks before being struck
f. pilots and crew in aircraft crashes, private and commercial
g. sudden unexpected deaths where the decedent does not have a well-documented illness that would explain death (All such deaths in young adults, children, and infants, including SIDS cases, should be autopsied. Deaths in the elderly should be considered on a case by case basis.)
h. suspicious or contested suicides
i. accidental deaths where the observable injuries do not appear sufficient to explain death or seem inconsistent with the alleged "accident"
j. possible public health hazard when the autopsy is the most expeditious means of determining whether in fact a hazard exists
k. law enforcement insistence
l. badly burned (charred) bodies
m. badly disfigured bodies when identification may be an issue, especially if there are multiple fatalities
n. skeletonized remains
o. badly decomposed remains
p. any death where there is a reasonable suspicion that trauma (external force) may have been the cause or a contributing cause and an autopsy will settle the issue.
q. apparently natural deaths in known alcoholics and drug abusers
r. deaths of travelers, vacationers, convention attendees, workers, students, and other strangers from afar should be carefully evaluated before a decision NOT to autopsy is made.


7. ME authorized autopsies are performed by assigned contracted pathologists located throughout the state, and at the OCME in Chapel Hill. The ME should telephone the regional pathologists before dispatching a body for autopsy and discuss the case with the pathologist, arrange a convenient disposition of the body, and coordinate transportation. When indicated, the ME should promptly report findings and those of the pathologist to the appropriate law enforcement agency.

8. The ME must make a record of his/her findings and of the circumstances of the death on the "Report of Investigation" form and on such diagrams, etc., as may be needed to completely document the case. These records are to be sent to the OCME within 14 days of notification of the death. The ME should keep a copy of all documents for his/her records.

9. As the official" document of a public official, the medical examiner's Report of Investigation reflects on the medical examiner, the medical profession, and on the medical examiner system. Examiners should try to make it as legible as possible, complete, and relevant. This report may be the only record (other than the death certificate) prepared in connection with this death. The findings of an ME investigation may be critical to the resolution of a variety of legal and social issues. Medical abbreviations may pose problems for many non-medical people who read the reports.

10. The ME Report of Investigation and the autopsy report once received and reviewed at the OCME are public records.

11. The ME must complete the "Medical Examiner Certificate of Death" on every case over which he/she assumes jurisdiction. ALL copies of the certificate are to be forwarded to the local Registrar of the County of death, usually through the funeral home handling the final disposition of the body. A death under ME jurisdiction CANNOT be certified on a non-medical examiner death certificate.

12. If the cause and/or manner of death is not known or for some other reason the death certificate diagnoses cannot be immediately completed, the certificate should be marked as pending" and forwarded as noted above. A supplemental death certificate can be filed later with the local registrar. Please bear in mind that the completion and filing of the death certificate is often crucial to families of decedents in order to settle estates, collect insurance and resolve other death-related matters. Medical examiners should do all they can to insure that no unnecessary delays occur in generating this important document.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


So that was or wasn't Maria at the bus station at 5? [/*]

OMG, yes she was at the bus station.:shrug:

Stop baiting:no:

[daniel green]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


I have the ME's IR in front of me.

It states:

1) Onset of Injury or Illness: +/- 12/16/07 Time ? Address as Meadow Trail

2) Death: +/- 12/16/07 Time ? Address as Meadow Trail

3) View of Body: 1/12/08 at 0915 At Hospital

4) ME Notified: 1/11/08 at +/- 1630

5) Last Know To Be Alive: 12/15/07 Time ?

Dr. G's signature is dated 1/16/08 [/*]\

Thank you!

So she was last known to be alive on 12/15,

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


I would think CSL left around 6:15 since FC is just about smack dab in the middle of CLNC.

But really in the grand scheme of things, whether she left at 6:15 or 6:30 doesn't make either here or there...she told OCSD investigator's she arrived home at 7 p.m. so that's what they have to work with.


jmoo [/*]

What we don't know (and an astute poster brought this up just the other day) is whether or not she stayed home after her 7 p.m. arrival. Could be she did a couple of things and then ran out to her sister's for a while.....maybe to pick up the daughter? We never did hear where the daughter was that day. Or maybe out shopping? It's possible that although she got home at 7, she didn't stay, and perhaps was out quite a long time afterwards.

:shrug:

[donna]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


I would think CSL left around 6:15 since FC is just about smack dab in the middle of CLNC.

But really in the grand scheme of things, whether she left at 6:15 or 6:30 doesn't make either here or there...she told OCSD investigator's she arrived home at 7 p.m. so that's what they have to work with.


jmoo [/*]

Hi, nuttin!

ITA

[caejde]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


OMG, yes she was at the bus station.:shrug:

Stop baiting:no: [/*]

Noone's baiting. You said you believed Maria was killed close to 5 pm. Well according to statements, Maria was at the bus station at 5 pm and couldn't have been killed then.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by daniel green
\

Thank you!

So she was last known to be alive on 12/15, [/*]

So you're saying RS is a liar?

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by caejde


Noone's baiting. You said you believed Maria was killed close to 5 pm. Well according to statements, Maria was at the bus station at 5 pm and couldn't have been killed then. [/*]

Between 5 and 7.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by strick10


Is that the norm when it comes to investigations that the more time goes by the more unlikely they will charge someone else as well? I don't know that's why I'm asking. [/*]

No, it is not the norm.

[caejde]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


It could have taken her up to 45 minutes, I was throwing in to that mix that perhaps Maria was unsure of exactly where CAL lived. And I also considered it was military payday along with the last payday before Christmas.

There are two ways of getting to Meadow Trail from the bus station. One is Onslow to Henderson to Western Blvd. extension to Gum Branch. The second is Onslow to Hwy. 17 to Western Blvd. extension and then to Gum Branch.

Now caejde has traveled the area since and she said on a payday Friday (IIRC) it took her about 20 minutes. I think she also took the Henderson route to Gum Branch.

And another thing---CSL's drive time from the FC area on base to her house would have taken her 45 minutes in drive time.

Regardless of the time it took for Maria to arrive at Meadow Trail, the timeline is still extremely close, IMO, to have some, most or all clean up done prior to CSL's arrival home around 7 p.m. on 12/14/07.

JMO [/*]

Hey nuttin! Just yesterday I was out at Williamsburg Crossing at the Food Lion. I drove from there to my husband's work on Piney Green and it took 20 minutes. I went straight down Western and turned on to 17. This was around 11:30 am so not terribly busy.

Also, another route Maria could have taken to his house is skipping Western altogether. She could have hit Onslow to Henderson to Gum Branch. She also could have taken 17 to Gumbranch and bypassed Western altogether. Maybe I'll drive it one day and see how long it takes me.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by daniel green


NO.
http://www.ocme.unc.edu/rules/guidelines.shtml


4. The medical examiner's jurisdiction attaches at death (this includes the determination of brain death) or upon the finding of a dead body. The ME has no jurisdiction over living persons. The place where death is pronounced or where a dead body is first found determines jurisdiction. The ME's geographic jurisdiction ordinarily extends to the borders of the county in which he/she is appointed to serve but is not necessarily limited to that county should it prove expedient to take jurisdiction in a death in an adjacent county. Note that the medical examiner's jurisdiction is determined by the place where the body is found, not necessarily by the place where the cause of death was inflicted.

The ME should relay findings to the appropriate law enforcement agencies at the place where the cause of death was inflicted if it is determined to be different from the county of death. He/she should also determine, based on investigation, where and when death actually occurred. (This may NOT be the same place where death was pronounced or the body found.) It is not the ME's job to pronounce people dead. For the purposes of our system, pronouncement of death occurs when the first person decides that an individual is dead.


5. The ME must personally view every dead body over which he/she assumes jurisdiction. The body should be critically inspected, including the back, both before and after removal of clothing. The ME must be alert for signs of violence, trauma, poisoning, etc. Obtaining a medical and social history of the decedent to help explain the cause and manner of death is a basic part of the investigation. He/she must be satisfied that any signs of injury are consistent with the history presented, and that when the death is thought to be from natural causes that no discordant evidence of injury is present. Consultation with law enforcement agencies is to be obtained in all relevant deaths. In some instances a ME may be asked to investigate a death after a body has been buried or cremated. Viewing of the body will, of course, be impossible and the investigation will be limited to a historical review of the circumstances of death and whatever observations about the body were made at the time. The ME should indicate that the body was not viewed and why, but go ahead and send in a report of investigation and prepare a ME death certificate.

6. The medical examiner has the authority to order an autopsy when, in his/her opinion, it is advisable and in the public interest. This power is to be used judiciously. If in doubt as to the advisability of ordering an autopsy, consultation is to be sought from the OCME or from the Regional Pathologist. In the event of a difference of opinion between a ME and a regional pathologist, the OCME may be contacted to resolve the issue.
Medical Examiners should order an autopsy on:
a. all homicides and suspected homicides
*. suspected drug related deaths, illicit or prescription
c. deaths in jail, prison, or under law enforcement custody or control
d. hit and run accidents
e. victims alleged to have been lying in the roadway or on railroadtracks before being struck
f. pilots and crew in aircraft crashes, private and commercial
g. sudden unexpected deaths where the decedent does not have a well-documented illness that would explain death (All such deaths in young adults, children, and infants, including SIDS cases, should be autopsied. Deaths in the elderly should be considered on a case by case basis.)
h. suspicious or contested suicides
i. accidental deaths where the observable injuries do not appear sufficient to explain death or seem inconsistent with the alleged "accident"
j. possible public health hazard when the autopsy is the most expeditious means of determining whether in fact a hazard exists
k. law enforcement insistence
l. badly burned (charred) bodies
m. badly disfigured bodies when identification may be an issue, especially if there are multiple fatalities
n. skeletonized remains
o. badly decomposed remains
p. any death where there is a reasonable suspicion that trauma (external force) may have been the cause or a contributing cause and an autopsy will settle the issue.
q. apparently natural deaths in known alcoholics and drug abusers
r. deaths of travelers, vacationers, convention attendees, workers, students, and other strangers from afar should be carefully evaluated before a decision NOT to autopsy is made.


7. ME authorized autopsies are performed by assigned contracted pathologists located throughout the state, and at the OCME in Chapel Hill. The ME should telephone the regional pathologists before dispatching a body for autopsy and discuss the case with the pathologist, arrange a convenient disposition of the body, and coordinate transportation. When indicated, the ME should promptly report findings and those of the pathologist to the appropriate law enforcement agency.

8. The ME must make a record of his/her findings and of the circumstances of the death on the "Report of Investigation" form and on such diagrams, etc., as may be needed to completely document the case. These records are to be sent to the OCME within 14 days of notification of the death. The ME should keep a copy of all documents for his/her records.

9. As the official" document of a public official, the medical examiner's Report of Investigation reflects on the medical examiner, the medical profession, and on the medical examiner system. Examiners should try to make it as legible as possible, complete, and relevant. This report may be the only record (other than the death certificate) prepared in connection with this death. The findings of an ME investigation may be critical to the resolution of a variety of legal and social issues. Medical abbreviations may pose problems for many non-medical people who read the reports.

10. The ME Report of Investigation and the autopsy report once received and reviewed at the OCME are public records.

11. The ME must complete the "Medical Examiner Certificate of Death" on every case over which he/she assumes jurisdiction. ALL copies of the certificate are to be forwarded to the local Registrar of the County of death, usually through the funeral home handling the final disposition of the body. A death under ME jurisdiction CANNOT be certified on a non-medical examiner death certificate.

12. If the cause and/or manner of death is not known or for some other reason the death certificate diagnoses cannot be immediately completed, the certificate should be marked as pending" and forwarded as noted above. A supplemental death certificate can be filed later with the local registrar. Please bear in mind that the completion and filing of the death certificate is often crucial to families of decedents in order to settle estates, collect insurance and resolve other death-related matters. Medical examiners should do all they can to insure that no unnecessary delays occur in generating this important document. [/*]

Read RS statement.

[strick10]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


I would think CSL left around 6:15 since FC is just about smack dab in the middle of CLNC.

But really in the grand scheme of things, whether she left at 6:15 or 6:30 doesn't make either here or there...she told OCSD investigator's she arrived home at 7 p.m. so that's what they have to work with.


jmoo [/*]

Gosh, that seems like a long time. Not doubting you nuttin, I just don't recall it taking me that long to drive from FC to Richlands.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Between 5 and 7. [/*]

You said close to 5. How can it be close to 5 when more than likely she didn't show back up to his house until closer to 6 if not a little after?

[strick10]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Pretty much in a case like this. The first 48 hours is very important in a homicide case although this one could have never been solved in 48 hours. They have interviewed many witnesses to get to the truth and I believe if Christina had been involved in the murder and cover up they would know by now and charge her. LE won't say she is in the clear however, because they don't have to. CS said if they had any probable cause to charge her they would.

jmo [/*]

Thanks!

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by daniel green


No, it is not the norm. [/*]


:lol:

[caejde]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Pretty much in a case like this. The first 48 hours is very important in a homicide case although this one could have never been solved in 48 hours. They have interviewed many witnesses to get to the truth and I believe if Christina had been involved in the murder and cover up they would know by now and charge her. LE won't say she is in the clear however, because they don't have to. CS said if they had any probable cause to charge her they would.

jmo [/*]

How do you know what the norm is? Ever worked crime scenes? I remember asking that the other day but never got an answer.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by daniel green






11. The ME must complete the "Medical Examiner Certificate of Death" on every case over which he/she assumes jurisdiction. ALL copies of the certificate are to be forwarded to the local Registrar of the County of death, usually through the funeral home handling the final disposition of the body. A death under ME jurisdiction CANNOT be certified on a non-medical examiner death certificate.

12. If the cause and/or manner of death is not known or for some other reason the death certificate diagnoses cannot be immediately completed, the certificate should be marked as pending" and forwarded as noted above. A supplemental death certificate can be filed later with the local registrar. Please bear in mind that the completion and filing of the death certificate is often crucial to families of decedents in order to settle estates, collect insurance and resolve other death-related matters. Medical examiners should do all they can to insure that no unnecessary delays occur in generating this important document. [/*]

Quoting myself to make sure these two are highlighted.

Will be gone for the afternoon, but just wanting to clear up who does the death cert.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by caejde


How do you know what the norm is? Ever worked crime scenes? I remember asking that the other day but never got an answer. [/*]

I sure hope not. That would scare the daylights out of me to think that degree of confusion exists in crime scene investigations.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by strick10


Thanks! [/*]

By the way, I am agreeing with you that witnesses at the party probably have said she left around 6:30 pm.

jmo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by daniel green


Quoting myself to make sure these two are highlighted.

Will be gone for the afternoon, but just wanting to clear up who does the death cert. [/*]

Not in a case like this. Read RS last missive.

jmo

[daniel green]

BTW, Sqwak, I see that once again you are saying that they don't have "any" probable cause or "enough" probable cause or "too much" probable cause.

Probable cause is a legal term, there are no qualifiers.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


What we don't know (and an astute poster brought this up just the other day) is whether or not she stayed home after her 7 p.m. arrival. Could be she did a couple of things and then ran out to her sister's for a while.....maybe to pick up the daughter? We never did hear where the daughter was that day. Or maybe out shopping? It's possible that although she got home at 7, she didn't stay, and perhaps was out quite a long time afterwards.

:shrug: [/*]

Hey it's just me but if hubby was supposed to go to his party and didn't show up, I'd probably be spending several minutes wanting to know why he didn't show up.

My point is that she told the investigators she arrived home from the party at 7.

As to what she did after that, only she knows and we aren't privy to that information.

jmoo

[donna]

Originally posted by caejde

**Respectfully snipped**
Well according to statements, Maria was at the bus station at 5 pm and couldn't have been killed then. [/*]

And having been at the bus station at 5:00 PM, there still had to be travel time during rush hour traffic to get to CAL's house.
You are right, caejde.

:)

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by caejde


How do you know what the norm is? Ever worked crime scenes? I remember asking that the other day but never got an answer. [/*]

My personal life is not important here. You can chose to believe me or not. You can also skip over my posts. Just saying.......

[daniel green]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Not in a case like this. Read RS last missive.

jmo [/*]

Oh, OK. In a "case like this" (whatever that means) NC law is just sidestepped and someone other than the ME determines time of death, cause of death, manner of death and someone else does the death certificate.

But of course.

:rolleyes:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by daniel green
BTW, Sqwak, I see that once again you are saying that they don't have "any" probable cause or "enough" probable cause or "too much" probable cause.

Probable cause is a legal term, there are no qualifiers. [/*]

Probable cause is all LE needs to make an arrest. lol

jmo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by daniel green


Oh, OK. In a "case like this" (whatever that means) NC law is just sidestepped and someone other than the ME determines time of death, cause of death, manner of death and someone else does the death certificate.

But of course.

:rolleyes: [/*]

Are you calling RS a liar?

[Squawk Box]

Have a good day.:seeya:

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


Hey it's just me but if hubby was supposed to go to his party and didn't show up, I'd probably be spending several minutes wanting to know why he didn't show up.

My point is that she told the investigators she arrived home from the party at 7.

As to what she did after that, only she knows and we aren't privy to that information.

jmoo [/*]

But we don't KNOW that he was supposed to go to his party and just didn't show up!

She could have known he was not going, for whatever reason.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Probable cause is all LE needs to make an arrest. lol

jmo [/*]

Um, actually, no.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by strick10


Gosh, that seems like a long time. Not doubting you nuttin, I just don't recall it taking me that long to drive from FC to Richlands. [/*]

There's really no way of telling. I just remember those days of driving through Jacksonville on payday or any other day, M-F after 4:30 in the afternoon. Shoot it would take me an hour to get to Richlands from home and that included going down Gum Branch (pre-bypass days). I would avoid 17 if at all possible before the bypass existed, LOL.

The picture of going down 24 and seeing the traffic backed up from the stoplight at Tireville/TT all the way to the overpass....

But still whatever the drive time took, it still makes the timeline tight.

jmo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


But we don't KNOW that he was supposed to go to his party and just didn't show up!

She could have known he was not going, for whatever reason. [/*]

Okay, perhaps she did know he wasn't going for whatever reason.

That does not take away from the fact that she TOLD the investigators that she arrived home at 7 p.m.

Now as to what she did or didn't do after her arrival at home, only she knows.

[strick10]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


But we don't KNOW that he was supposed to go to his party and just didn't show up!

She could have known he was not going, for whatever reason. [/*]

So true.
Being that CSL was also in the admin field it could be that she knew several Marines from CALs unit. Perhaps she did an AT at that unit which may explain why she showed up w/out CAL. There's no telling.

It does seem to me that CAL didn't have any intention of going to the party or he would've already been gone when Maria stopped by his house the 1st time. I think that because he was home he didn't plan on going to the party as the unit secured w/ the purpose of the party. Why drive all that way to change into civies..he could've taken the civies w/ him or attended in uniform.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by daniel green


Quoting myself to make sure these two are highlighted.

Will be gone for the afternoon, but just wanting to clear up who does the death cert. [/*]

I get that part, but who's responsible for supplying the information on the top part of the death certificate?

The part where it calls Maria a "Soldier", the social security number, her place of birth, her mother's name, her father's name, and the attorney's name and address (19a and 19bee)?

That can't come from the medical examiner.

:shrug:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


I have the ME's IR in front of me.

It states:

1) Onset of Injury or Illness: +/- 12/16/07 Time ? Address as Meadow Trail

2) Death: +/- 12/16/07 Time ? Address as Meadow Trail

3) View of Body: 1/12/08 at 0915 At Hospital

4) ME Notified: 1/11/08 at +/- 1630

5) Last Know To Be Alive: 12/15/07 Time ?

Dr. G's signature is dated 1/16/08 [/*]

Thank you!

How does +/- 12/16/07 equal a date of death on the death certificate of 12/16/07?

I'm thinking Garrett only had what LE provided and that was Cesar's "notes" as the death occurring on 12/15. So I can see where a date of death of 12/15 would be written. What I'm not getting is the 12/16 date.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


My personal life is not important here. You can chose to believe me or not. You can also skip over my posts. Just saying....... [/*]

I'm asking a simple question. How do you know what the norm is when it comes to crime scene investigations and what procedures are done? You didn't provide a link to give an example, you stated what your opinion was. I am trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion that the first 48 hours are very important.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Thank you!

How does +/- 12/16/07 equal a date of death on the death certificate of 12/16/07?

I'm thinking Garrett only had what LE provided and that was Cesar's "notes" as the death occurring on 12/15. So I can see where a date of death of 12/15 would be written. What I'm not getting is the 12/16 date. [/*]

Me either. Color me :confused: too.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by caejde


I'm asking a simple question. How do you know what the norm is when it comes to crime scene investigations and what procedures are done? You didn't provide a link to give an example, you stated what your opinion was. I am trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion that the first 48 hours are very important. [/*]

I suggest you get some books reference crime scene investigations and maybe homicide investigations. Maybe some criminal science books. Very interesting and helpful. Just saying.........

jmo

[mini-me]

Originally posted by strick10


So true.
Being that CSL was also in the admin field it could be that she knew several Marines from CALs unit. Perhaps she did an AT at that unit which may explain why she showed up w/out CAL. There's no telling.

It does seem to me that CAL didn't have any intention of going to the party or he would've already been gone when Maria stopped by his house the 1st time. I think that because he was home he didn't plan on going to the party as the unit secured w/ the purpose of the party. Why drive all that way to change into civies..he could've taken the civies w/ him or attended in uniform. [/*]How do we know CAL was home that afternoon. He could have been anywhere. All we know he finished at noon that day.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I suggest you get some books reference crime scene investigations and maybe homicide investigations. Maybe some criminal science books. Very interesting and helpful. Just saying.........

jmo [/*]

So when you claim something about how "investigations like this" are handled, are you referring to something you've read in a book?

Just asking because I'd like the name of the book or books that you have read that others can refer to for questions on how investigations are handled.

[donna]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I suggest you get some books reference crime scene investigations and maybe homicide investigations. Maybe some criminal science books. Very interesting and helpful. Just saying.........

jmo [/*]

Books. There can be circumstances not covered by a book. Experience is the best teacher.

:D

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by mini-me
How do we know CAL was home that afternoon. He could have been anywhere. All we know he finished at noon that day. [/*]

Yes, and he could have been gone until 9 that night. We don't know, you're right about that.

:shrug:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


So when you claim something about how "investigations like this" are handled, are you referring to something you've read in a book?

Just asking because I'd like the name of the book or books that you have read that others can refer to for questions on how investigations are handled. [/*]

No I am not referring to books I've read. Those books can be found in books stores
and online. Also Discovery Channel, Discovery ID, and Tru Tv has true crimes shows that are very informative.

Just staying.......

jmo

[strick10]

Originally posted by mini-me
How do we know CAL was home that afternoon. He could have been anywhere. All we know he finished at noon that day. [/*]

We don't know for sure where he was that afternoon other than the notes CAL left behind stating that Maria went to his home twice that day. Wish Wanda was MW5s' friend, we'd have the skinny then. :D

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by donna


Books. There can be circumstances not covered by a book. Experience is the best teacher.

:D [/*]

Yeah, I want the book that claims that because somebody hasn't been arrested they are not being looked at as a suspect.

'Cause experience would tell you that the wronged spouse could and should be considered a possible suspect.

:D

[caejde]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


So when you claim something about how "investigations like this" are handled, are you referring to something you've read in a book?

Just asking because I'd like the name of the book or books that you have read that others can refer to for questions on how investigations are handled. [/*]

I was just reading a site that has a homicide investigation checklist. Still don't see anything about the first 48 hours being the most important. But I did see when it showed about a deceased person...says that investigators are to remove any physical evidence from the victim to include personal effects, clothing, shoes, etc. Maybe this is why Maria's shoes and/or pants are not listed on the ME's autopsy. If there was anything left of her pants, maybe they were removed as evidence.

10. Search of Scene

A. Deceased

a. Before removing examine deceased for physical evidence (Example: loose hairs, fibers, etc.)

*. Place deceased on a cloth sheet, move body shortest possible distance.

c. Examine the ground underneath the victim

d. Examine deceased for additional physical evidence that may become visible after movement.

e. Collect physical evidence from deceased to include personal effects, clothing, shoes, weapons, etc.
http://www.nmsoh.org/homicide_investigator_checklist.htm

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


So when you claim something about how "investigations like this" are handled, are you referring to something you've read in a book?

Just asking because I'd like the name of the book or books that you have read that others can refer to for questions on how investigations are handled. [/*]

RS brought up "in a case like this" on the blog. jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


No I am not referring to books I've read. Those books can be found in books stores
and online. Also Discovery Channel, Discovery ID, and Tru Tv has true crimes shows that are very informative.

Just staying.......

jmo [/*]

So if you're not referring to books you've read, you're referring to your experience?

Or now it's some tv show?

That's all she was asking you.

Just sayin'.....

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Yeah, I want the book that claims that because somebody hasn't been arrested they are not being looked at as a suspect.

'Cause experience would tell you that the wronged spouse could and should be considered a possible suspect.

:D [/*]

Unless they are cleared, in which case they might be referred to as a "cooperating witness." :D

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Unless they are cleared, in which case they might be referred to as a "cooperating witness." :D [/*]

When was Christina cleared?

TIA

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Yeah, I want the book that claims that because somebody hasn't been arrested they are not being looked at as a suspect.

'Cause experience would tell you that the wronged spouse could and should be considered a possible suspect.

:D [/*]

No one said that. imo

[donna]

I, for one, have never seen a case like this one on TV. Also, there have been plenty of people charged in a case after the first critical 48 hour period. Accomplices can be found after the actual murderer is in custody and points to a person or persons who helped in the murder and/or coverup.
Each case is different and each case circumstance is not covered in books, IMO.

As more is discovered in this case, more charges can be made. I doubt that CAL will be the only one to have done all that was done to Maria during and after the murder. This is IMO.

MOO

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by caejde


I was just reading a site that has a homicide investigation checklist. Still don't see anything about the first 48 hours being the most important. But I did see when it showed about a deceased person...says that investigators are to remove any physical evidence from the victim to include personal effects, clothing, shoes, etc. Maybe this is why Maria's shoes and/or pants are not listed on the ME's autopsy. If there was anything left of her pants, maybe they were removed as evidence.

10. Search of Scene

A. Deceased

a. Before removing examine deceased for physical evidence (Example: loose hairs, fibers, etc.)

*. Place deceased on a cloth sheet, move body shortest possible distance.

c. Examine the ground underneath the victim

d. Examine deceased for additional physical evidence that may become visible after movement.

e. Collect physical evidence from deceased to include personal effects, clothing, shoes, weapons, etc.
http://www.nmsoh.org/homicide_investigator_checklist.htm [/*]

"48 Hours, Hard Evidence" on Discovery will help you understand. Just trying to be helpful.;)

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


No one said that. imo [/*]

Really?

'Cause I would almost swear that 90% of your posts include the mantra "Christina would have been arrested by now...." or some similar phrasing.

Or is that another Squawk Box?

[AlohaRainbow]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


But the medical examiner couldn't have provided the information such as place of birth, mother's name, social security number, etc....

That info had to come from a family member or someone representing the family.

The autopsy doesn't list a date of death. I question why the 16th is even given, being that the family says the 15th, and LE says the 14th. Where is the 16th gleaned from?



:shrug: [/*]
doesn't the military get paid on the 1st and 15th of a month?
perhaps the family was given somewhat of a choice as to the date of death (since it wasn't possible to determine it exactly). i could see an attorney advising them to choose the 16th so that her paycheck from the 15th would be 'protected' - iow, if the date of death was determined to be on the 14th, and her paycheck that was actually for the 15th had already been deposited - would it legally have to be paid back???

[i've never thought about this before, but what happens with paychecks for any service member who is thought to be awol/ual? do the checks get suspended until the service member returns? ]

[caejde]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


"48 Hours, Hard Evidence" on Discovery will help you understand. Just trying to be helpful.;) [/*]

Well, darn, I don't get that channel.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


So if you're not referring to books you've read, you're referring to your experience?

Or now it's some tv show?

That's all she was asking you.

Just sayin'..... [/*]

Just trying to be helpful. :shrug:

[donna]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Yeah, I want the book that claims that because somebody hasn't been arrested they are not being looked at as a suspect.

'Cause experience would tell you that the wronged spouse could and should be considered a possible suspect.

:D [/*]

:D .... Ain't no blooming book that states that! I agree.

And CSL was probably feeling very wronged!

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by donna
I, for one, have never seen a case like this one on TV. Also, there have been plenty of people charged in a case after the first critical 48 hour period. Accomplices can be found after the actual murderer is in custody and points to a person or persons who helped in the murder and/or coverup.
Each case is different and each case circumstance is not covered in books, IMO.

As more is discovered in this case, more charges can be made. I doubt that CAL will be the only one to have done all that was done to Maria during and after the murder. This is IMO.

MOO [/*]

ITA

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


When was Christina cleared?

TIA [/*]

Did I say she was? No, I didn't. We were discussing a hypothetical.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Really?

'Cause I would almost swear that 90% of your posts include the mantra "Christina would have been arrested by now...." or some similar phrasing.

Or is that another Squawk Box? [/*]

I never said she wasn't still a suspect. RS said if they had probable cause to arrest her she would be charged. jmo

[caejde]

Originally posted by AlohaRainbow

doesn't the military get paid on the 1st and 15th of a month?
perhaps the family was given somewhat of a choice as to the date of death (since it wasn't possible to determine it exactly). i could see an attorney advising them to choose the 16th so that her paycheck from the 15th would be 'protected' - iow, if the date of death was determined to be on the 14th, and her paycheck that was actually for the 15th had already been deposited - would it legally have to be paid back???

[i've never thought about this before, but what happens with paychecks for any service member who is thought to be awol/ual? do the checks get suspended until the service member returns? ] [/*]

Maria would have been paid on the 14th since the 15th was a Saturday. Anytime the 1st/15th falls on weekend or holiday, it's the day before. She wouldn't have to pay that back. Since Cesar is in a deserter status, his pay has stopped altogether.

[mini-me]

Originally posted by donna
I, for one, have never seen a case like this one on TV. Also, there have been plenty of people charged in a case after the first critical 48 hour period. Accomplices can be found after the actual murderer is in custody and points to a person or persons who helped in the murder and/or coverup.
Each case is different and each case circumstance is not covered in books, IMO.

As more is discovered in this case, more charges can be made. I doubt that CAL will be the only one to have done all that was done to Maria during and after the murder. This is IMO.

MOO [/*]Hasn't anyone watched the cop show 48 hours. I've watched it many times. It's an american program and they say first 48 hours are the most critical.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by AlohaRainbow

doesn't the military get paid on the 1st and 15th of a month?
perhaps the family was given somewhat of a choice as to the date of death (since it wasn't possible to determine it exactly). i could see an attorney advising them to choose the 16th so that her paycheck from the 15th would be 'protected' - iow, if the date of death was determined to be on the 14th, and her paycheck that was actually for the 15th had already been deposited - would it legally have to be paid back???

[i've never thought about this before, but what happens with paychecks for any service member who is thought to be awol/ual? do the checks get suspended until the service member returns? ] [/*]

I thought about the "protected" paycheck. I also thought about was there any significance as to 12/16 regarding any life insurance payout.

Do we know if Maria continued to collect pay until 1/11?

:shrug:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by donna


Books. There can be circumstances not covered by a book. Experience is the best teacher.

:D [/*]

When you read a book certain things can be applied to certain areas of different cases.

Maybe a book about this will be written someday. jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by mini-me
Hasn't anyone watched the cop show 48 hours. I've watched it many times. It's an american program and they say first 48 hours are the most critical. [/*]

Yes, and I believe it refers to the first 48 hours after a murder. Not the first 48 hours after the discovery of a body that's been buried a month.

[SavannahStar]

Here are my thoughts on the tight timeline and Christina's involvement or lack thereof.

First of all, it's said over and over and over and over again on here by the vast majority of posters that it is blatantly obvious there is NO WAY in the world that Christina could not have known, or been complicit in, Maria's death.

That is how it appears.

Now if it appears that way to us (generic "us") plus as we've been told, the great majority of those who live in that locality, AND posters on other boards.....don't you think it also appeared that way to LE? And if so, they would have certainly leaned on Christina VERY VERY hard to get the truth out. Which leads me to believe with all my heart that THEY KNOW THINGS ABOUT THE TIMELINE AND CHRISTINA that we are not aware of.

Otherwise, yes, I believe she would be in jail as we speak, on accessory charges at minimum. I think she would have wilted in a heartbeat had some good ol' LE types interrogated her very intensely, and over time.

But she's out there, free as a bird. I fully believe that LE knows much more than we do and that is why she has not been charged with anything as of this date. You cannot convince me that there is some motive behind waiting to charge her until Cesar is captured and talks. I think A LOT of investigating has been going on and it is all being kept under wraps.

IMO.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by donna


:D .... Ain't no blooming book that states that! I agree.

And CSL was probably feeling very wronged! [/*]

Well there's your problem, you're reading books on blooms.

Now get to the library!

:D

[donna]

Originally posted by mini-me
Hasn't anyone watched the cop show 48 hours. I've watched it many times. It's an american program and they say first 48 hours are the most critical. [/*]

Yes, but haven't you seen some of the 48 Hours shows where the murderer was not apprehended within that timeframe? Also, sometimes the accomplice is apprehended even before the murderer is and actually leads them to the murderer. IMO.

Look at all of the cold cases that are on the books. I wish this were a straightforward murder where all is tied in a neat package at the end of 48 hours, but it has not been. MOO

[AlohaRainbow]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Yes, and I believe it refers to the first 48 hours after a murder. Not the first 48 hours after the discovery of a body that's been buried a month. [/*]
i thought it was in the 1st 48 hours of the investigation, if le doesn't get a *lead* on a suspect, that statistics show it less likely they will solve the murder.

[not sure whether that stat is true or not, but i think that's the opening spiel for the tv show "the first 48 hours"]

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Yes, and I believe it refers to the first 48 hours after a murder. Not the first 48 hours after the discovery of a body that's been buried a month. [/*]


:confused:

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I thought about the "protected" paycheck. I also thought about was there any significance as to 12/16 regarding any life insurance payout.

Do we know if Maria continued to collect pay until 1/11?

:shrug: [/*]

Cryme, IIRC, I think the MC/NCIS said ML was put on deserter status early on (maybe Dec 19?) so that her name would be entered into a national database or something so as to help find her (when she was a missing person).

And Caejde just said that CL wasn't still getting paid because he was on deserter status, so I am assuming that means ML was also not getting paid.

JMO

[donna]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Well there's your problem, you're reading books on blooms.

Now get to the library!

:D [/*]

Well, shoot! I knew it wasn't making sense!.....
:D

(murder never does)

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Well there's your problem, you're reading books on blooms.

Now get to the library!

:D [/*]

Not nice to make fun of trying to better yourself by reading.:no:

[donna]

Originally posted by SavannahStar
Here are my thoughts on the tight timeline and Christina's involvement or lack thereof.

First of all, it's said over and over and over and over again on here by the vast majority of posters that it is blatantly obvious there is NO WAY in the world that Christina could not have known, or been complicit in, Maria's death.

That is how it appears.

Now if it appears that way to us (generic "us") plus as we've been told, the great majority of those who live in that locality, AND posters on other boards.....don't you think it also appeared that way to LE? And if so, they would have certainly leaned on Christina VERY VERY hard to get the truth out. Which leads me to believe with all my heart that THEY KNOW THINGS ABOUT THE TIMELINE AND CHRISTINA that we are not aware of.

Otherwise, yes, I believe she would be in jail as we speak, on accessory charges at minimum. I think she would have wilted in a heartbeat had some good ol' LE types interrogated her very intensely, and over time.

But she's out there, free as a bird. I fully believe that LE knows much more than we do and that is why she has not been charged with anything as of this date. You cannot convince me that there is some motive behind waiting to charge her until Cesar is captured and talks. I think A LOT of investigating has been going on and it is all being kept under wraps.

IMO. [/*]

IMO, Christina is more valuable to LE by NOT being jailed.

[donna]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Not nice to make fun of trying to better yourself by reading.:no: [/*]

:shrug:

Don't think she was!

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by donna


IMO, Christina is more valuable to LE by NOT being jailed. [/*]

How so?

[donna]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


How so? [/*]

Because CL may try to get in touch with her. She is a 'cooperating witness', isn't she?

[chance]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


How so? [/*]


If they charge her now the information highway shuts down. They keep her thinking she is in the clear she will keep giving up the info.

MOO

(Been catching up after being gone for a few days and WOW with the JDnews comment board.)

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by donna


Because CL may try to get in touch with her. She is a 'cooperating witness', isn't she? [/*]

You're kidding right?

[mini-me]

Originally posted by donna


Yes, but haven't you seen some of the 48 Hours shows where the murderer was not apprehended within that timeframe? Also, sometimes the accomplice is apprehended even before the murderer is and actually leads them to the murderer. IMO.

Look at all of the cold cases that are on the books. I wish this were a straightforward murder where all is tied in a neat package at the end of 48 hours, but it has not been. MOO [/*]They don't solve every case. This case will be solved eventually, we just have to wait. I think logic will prevail and LE will get their man. They know more than we do. LE can't put all the facts out in public, altho it would be nice for us if they did.

[donna]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


You're kidding right? [/*]

Nope, are you?

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by SavannahStar
Here are my thoughts on the tight timeline and Christina's involvement or lack thereof.

First of all, it's said over and over and over and over again on here by the vast majority of posters that it is blatantly obvious there is NO WAY in the world that Christina could not have known, or been complicit in, Maria's death.

That is how it appears.

Now if it appears that way to us (generic "us") plus as we've been told, the great majority of those who live in that locality, AND posters on other boards.....don't you think it also appeared that way to LE? And if so, they would have certainly leaned on Christina VERY VERY hard to get the truth out. Which leads me to believe with all my heart that THEY KNOW THINGS ABOUT THE TIMELINE AND CHRISTINA that we are not aware of.

Otherwise, yes, I believe she would be in jail as we speak, on accessory charges at minimum. I think she would have wilted in a heartbeat had some good ol' LE types interrogated her very intensely, and over time.

But she's out there, free as a bird. I fully believe that LE knows much more than we do and that is why she has not been charged with anything as of this date. You cannot convince me that there is some motive behind waiting to charge her until Cesar is captured and talks. I think A LOT of investigating has been going on and it is all being kept under wraps.

IMO. [/*]


:beer:

[donna]

Originally posted by mini-me
They don't solve every case. This case will be solved eventually, we just have to wait. I think logic will prevail and LE will get their man. They know more than we do. LE can't put all the facts out in public, altho it would be nice for us if they did. [/*]

I am sure LE knows more than we do, and there things we will not know until this case is at trial.
I do hope you are right, mini-me, and CAL will eventually be captured.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by chance



If they charge her now the information highway shuts down. They keep her thinking she is in the clear she will keep giving up the info.

MOO

(Been catching up after being gone for a few days and WOW with the JDnews comment board.) [/*]

Here is what I think. If they had very serious charges against Christina such as murder or accessory, there is no way she would be allowed to walk around free. What if she runs too? RS has said if they had probable cause to charge her they would. Just saying......

jmo

[chance]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Here is what I think. If they had very serious charges against Christina such as murder or accesory, there is no way she would be allowed to walk around free. What if she runs too? RS has said if they had probable cause to charge her they would. Just saying......

jmo [/*]

I think she won't be running anywhere. IMO LE is keeping tabs on her to ensure that does not happen.

I have no idea what LE's strategy is, but I do think it is highly possible that they will charge her at some point. I don't think they are required to charge her as soon as they have cause.

We will just have to sit and wait to see how it plays out.

moo

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by chance



If they charge her now the information highway shuts down. They keep her thinking she is in the clear she will keep giving up the info.

MOO

(Been catching up after being gone for a few days and WOW with the JDnews comment board.) [/*]

Keep giving up the info? C'mon.......seasoned LE can get all the info they need from a suspect pretty quickly. Christina is a young wife and mother, not a career criminal. IF she were guilty of anything, she would have folded long before this time.

[crymeariver2006]

The only thing Cesar has copped to is burying the body of a suicide victim.

IF Christina was to be arrested today and charged with being an accessory to murder, wouldn't she need Cesar found? I'm sure he would play a part in her defense, right?

I still don't know how it accomplishes finding Cesar by arresting Christina. Christina's not going anywhere.

[mini-me]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Here is what I think. If they had very serious charges against Christina such as murder or accessory, there is no way she would be allowed to walk around free. What if she runs too? RS has said if they had probable cause to charge her they would. Just saying......

jmo [/*]Do you honestly think because she took notes to LE and told them what CAL told her that LE will automatically believe that is exactly what happened. I don't think so, LE has to verify everything she said. Anyone can give a statement but are they telling. The murder happened on their property she lived there and you expect LE to give a pass and she knew nothing at all. Never ever seen anything out of the ordinary in all those days. I don't know how much she was involved but I think she knew way before she said she did. JMO

[caejde]

Originally posted by bubbagirl


She was a marine too, right? If one marine said he raped her, why didnt' they put him in jail while they investigated instead of sending him home to his other female marine victim? They had to know he was married. she was making less money than him, so she probably couldnt' leave him. just my opinion [/*]

Because you just can't go throwing people in the brig!

And until the whole rape allegations were straightened out, she could have stayed with her sister...just as she is doing now.

[chance]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Keep giving up the info? C'mon.......seasoned LE can get all the info they need from a suspect pretty quickly. Christina is a young wife and mother, not a career criminal. IF she were guilty of anything, she would have folded long before this time. [/*]


Like I said I don't know what LEs strategy is. But once charged and lawyered up seasoned LEs questioning days are over! IMO.

moo

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by mini-me
Do you honestly think because she took notes to LE and told them what CAL told her that LE will automatically believe that is exactly what happened. I don't think so, LE has to verify everything she said. Anyone can give a statement but are they telling. The murder happened on their property she lived there and you expect LE to give a pass and she knew nothing at all. Never ever seen anything out of the ordinary in all those days. I don't know how much she was involved but I think she knew way before she said she did. JMO [/*]

Remember my last post where I said I believe that LE knows much more about Christina's timeline, etc., that we are privy to. So all "we" know is that "how could she NEVER have seen anything out of the ordinary".......when perhaps LE knows WHY she may not have seen anything out of the ordinary.

[bubbagirl]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I bet Christina thanks her lucky stars everyday SHE is alive.

jmo [/*]

me too. i think she hesitated going to the cops because he threatened her too. jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

There is no rape charge levied much less a proven rape. Bubba, you are barking up the wrong tree IMHO.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by bubbagirl


me too. i think she hesitated going to the cops because he threatened her too. jmo [/*]

Now that I don't agree with.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES
There is no rape charge levied much less a proven rape. Bubba, you are barking up the wrong tree IMHO. [/*]

That I DO agree with.

[sexxytazz]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES
There is no rape charge levied much less a proven rape. Bubba, you are barking up the wrong tree IMHO. [/*]

I agree.

CK~Update had to be left elsewhere, your spring cleaning here wasn't done.

welcome Bubbagirl

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by bubbagirl


me too. i think she hesitated going to the cops because he threatened her too. jmo [/*]

hmmm...i don't know about that. she would have never gone to the police, then, imo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by bubbagirl


me too. i think she hesitated going to the cops because he threatened her too. jmo [/*]

I've often thought he may have been an abusive husband. We know he can blow up and kill someone. He may have a hair trigger temper. jmo

[martha]

I guess there is nothing new on cl today? I always come back to check and see if they have got him yet but guess not. maybe it will be soon. I know we all want that.:rose:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by marinewife5


hmmm...i don't know about that. she would have never gone to the police, then, imo [/*]

Sure she would. As soon as he left. I bet she does still live in fear of him though. imo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I've often thought he may have been an abusive husband. We know he can blow up and kill someone. He may have a hair trigger temper. jmo [/*]

We really don't know anything. He is a suspect period. You might remember that Maria herself said he was popular and he has been described by others as a nice guy, loved his baby girl, even talked about diapers and sippie cups and was on the fast track as a stellar marine IIRC.

So nobody KNOWS anything for sure yet, it's all speculation IMO.

Something went terribly wrong and it begs for a complete and total story and explanation for what happened that left a murdered woman on his property IMO.

:(

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by martha
I guess there is nothing new on cl today? I always come back to check and see if they have got him yet but guess not. maybe it will be soon. I know we all want that.:rose: [/*]

No, nothing new that I have seen. Nothing new at all and much with old rehashing of things we have no answer to and won't untilo trial IMO martha. :(

Every day is a new hope for his capture.

jmo:patriot:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Sure she would. As soon as he left. I bet she does still live in fear of him though. imo [/*]

But she didn't go as soon as he left did she?

She must not be in fear of him to stay in the same town, virtually in the same neighborhood with a relative where he could easily find her.

If he wanted to.

If he was able.

Just sayin'

[martha]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


No, nothing new that I have seen. Nothing new at all and much with old rehashing of things we have no answer to and won't untilo trial IMO martha. :(

Every day is a new hope for his capture.

jmo:patriot: [/*] ITA even then we may not know the truth about what really happened. we can all second guess everything but the part that is so awful is a young lady and her baby had to lose their life.:rose:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by chance



Like I said I don't know what LEs strategy is. But once charged and lawyered up seasoned LEs questioning days are over! IMO.

moo [/*]

I think this is a very unusual case. We have one person left behind to tell the story.

As long as no one is here that refutes the key witness LE has nothing to compare her story to.........as SB said to Cpl. Laurean "come back and tell us your story."

The problem they have is the time line imo. I think even LE is bothered some by it. They really have no set time when this murder happened. It could have happened 30 minutes before CSL came home or it could have happened 30 minutes after she came home but what the DA needs is a key witness in this case and so far CSL is it. All of this was done behind closed doors so when one side has been killed and one side has fled the jurisdiction only one is left to tell anything.

I highly doubt that after a month they found any forensics that points directly to CL as the one who did the murder. He has already admitted burying her.

So until there is someone who was there that can refute her statements she will remain a cooperating witness. It is much better with him still on the lam to keep her talking to LE even if it is through her criminal defense attorney which it seems she had an attorney even before she came to the base with the notes that morning.

Her best card.....is the notes he left behind......which imo were intentionally written to distance her from the crime but his mindset may have changed now and if he is brought back he may just spill it all.

imoo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I think this is a very unusual case. We have one person left behind to tell the story.

As long as no one is here that refutes the key witness LE has nothing to compare her story to.........as SB said to Cpl. Laurean "come back and tell us your story."

The problem they have is the time line imo. I think even LE is bothered some by it. They really have no set time when this murder happened. It could have happened 30 minutes before CSL came home or it could have happened 30 minutes after she came home but what the DA needs is a key witness in this case and so far CSL is it. All of this was done behind closed doors so when one side has been killed and one side has fled the jurisdiction only one is left to tell anything.

I highly doubt that after a month they found any forensics that points directly to CL as the one who did the murder. He has already admitted burying her.

So until there is someone who was there that can refute her statements she will remain a cooperating witness. It is much better with him still on the lam to keep her talking to LE even if it is through her criminal defense attorney which it seems she had an attorney even before she came to the base with the notes that morning.

Her best card.....is the notes he left behind......which imo were intentionally written to distance her from the crime but his mindset may have changed now and if he is brought back he may just spill it all.

imoo [/*]


Do you really think LE justs sits around doing nothing and taking her word for everything?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


But she didn't go as soon as he left did she?

She must not be in fear of him to stay in the same town, virtually in the same neighborhood with a relative where he could easily find her.

If he wanted to.

If he was able.

Just sayin' [/*]

I don't think CSL feared him at all.

In fact I don't believe she would have breathed a word of this if she hadn't had the notes to turn in and knowing that he had left her.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Squawk Box



Do you really think LE justs sits around doing nothing and taking her word for everything? [/*]

Well since they don't know the exact time of Maria's death...yeah I think they are taking her word for it ................for now.

imoo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think CSL feared him at all.

In fact I don't believe she would have breathed a word of this if she hadn't had the notes to turn in and knowing that he had left her.

imoo [/*]

Maybe she should have torn up the notes and just said nothing. Maria would not have been found and LE would have thought he just ran off with Maria.

SB also said Christina blew this case wide open.

Just saying..............

jmo

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Sure she would. As soon as he left. I bet she does still live in fear of him though. imo [/*]

I wonder why he didn't take her with him, then? rather than leave her here to tell the story her way? just curious.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think CSL feared him at all.

In fact I don't believe she would have breathed a word of this if she hadn't had the notes to turn in and knowing that he had left her.

imoo [/*]

Right. As far as she knew (allegedly), Maria was buried in the woods and she, nor Cesar, could ever be connected to that if she was ever found. Cesar left her and she could have just moved out (which she ended up doing anyway), played the sympathy card with her family and be the victim of a man who walked (ran) out on her.

Now I understand what nelkirk was saying the other day.

There is a definite reason why she turned those notes in. IMO, it was because she knew the body wasn't in the woods.

JMO

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Well since they don't know the exact time of Maria's death...yeah I think they are taking her word for it ................for now.

imoo [/*]

I still don't know what you are expecting on the time of death. They know the day. Maria was last seen alive at 5 pm. Christina got home at 7pm. That means Maria died on the 14th between the hours of 5 pm and 7 pm. What about that don't you understand? That is what they need for trial.

LE is not only taking her word. They are investigating everything.

jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by marinewife5


I wonder why he didn't take her with him, then? rather than leave her here to tell the story her way? just curious. [/*]

I think he was planning on leaving her anyway. But that's just me.

Now if someone is going "on the run", a wife and child would tend to slow them down.

(But come to think of it, so would staying in a motel, writing letters, getting money wired to you, buying sunglasses......)

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I think he was planning on leaving her anyway. But that's just me.

Now if someone is going "on the run", a wife and child would tend to slow them down.

(But come to think of it, so would staying in a motel, writing letters, getting money wired to you, buying sunglasses......) [/*]

he wasn't exactly Speed Racer on the getaway, eh?

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I still don't know what you are expecting on the time of death. They know the day. Maria was last seen alive at 5 pm. Christina got home at 7pm. That means Maria died on the 14th between the hours of 5 pm and 7 pm. What about that don't you understand? That is what they need for trial.

LE is not only taking her word. They are investigating everything.

jmo [/*]

How does any of that prove that Maria was killed between the hours of 5 and 7?

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by marinewife5


he wasn't exactly Speed Racer on the getaway, eh? [/*]

I've never been on the run before, but I do question if Cesar knew the meaning of the term.

:D

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Squawk Box



Do you really think LE justs sits around doing nothing and taking her word for everything? [/*]

:beer:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by marinewife5


I wonder why he didn't take her with him, then? rather than leave her here to tell the story her way? just curious. [/*]

I think he felt, no matter what even if he is innocent and we don't know whether he is guilty or innocent at this time, he was THE one that was going to take the fall anyway due to the prior circumstances.

He felt his child needed her mother and he had family outside of the country and CSL didn't.

IF CSL was involved in this he may have felt guilty because he was the one that started all of this mess months ago anyway.

JMO tho.

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I've never been on the run before, but I do question if Cesar knew the meaning of the term.

:D [/*]

It did seem like he was "on the crawl". dang it...we still don't have him here

[strick10]

Originally posted by marinewife5


he wasn't exactly Speed Racer on the getaway, eh? [/*]

Or Rug Racer w/ plenty of Minute Maid punch available to him. :seeya: Good to see ya.

[caejde]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Right. As far as she knew (allegedly), Maria was buried in the woods and she, nor Cesar, could ever be connected to that if she was ever found. Cesar left her and she could have just moved out (which she ended up doing anyway), played the sympathy card with her family and be the victim of a man who walked (ran) out on her.

Now I understand what nelkirk was saying the other day.

There is a definite reason why she turned those notes in. IMO, it was because she knew the body wasn't in the woods.

JMO [/*]

Nelkirk was a very good poster! Had alot of knowledge and tried to be unbiased on everything.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by strick10


Or Rug Racer w/ plenty of Minute Maid punch available to him. :seeya: Good to see ya. [/*]

:lol:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by marinewife5


I wonder why he didn't take her with him, then? rather than leave her here to tell the story her way? just curious. [/*]

He can disappear better alone. He didn't care what she would say once he was gone. He figures he will never be caught.

jmo

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by strick10


Or Rug Racer w/ plenty of Minute Maid punch available to him. :seeya: Good to see ya. [/*]

If he hadnt dumped the juice for the cover-up, he may have had more energy and wouldn't have had to stop and rest so soon LOL. And I don't have to tell ya how much a rug will slow ya down.

How on earth is he not in custody? I'm not questioning le, but geesh, he has some serious help or is pushing up daisies somewhere. jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


He can disappear better alone. He didn't care what she would say once he was gone. He figures he will never be caught.

jmo [/*]

Well, if he didn't care what she said, why leave notes telling her what to say? Why didn't he confess already to her?

If he figured he was never going to be caught, why bother with the "suicide" charade?

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


He can disappear better alone. He didn't care what she would say once he was gone. He figures he will never be caught.

jmo [/*]

then why the lies in the note? why not spill the truth?

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I still don't know what you are expecting on the time of death. They know the day. Maria was last seen alive at 5 pm. Christina got home at 7pm. That means Maria died on the 14th between the hours of 5 pm and 7 pm. What about that don't you understand? That is what they need for trial.

LE is not only taking her word. They are investigating everything.

jmo [/*]

I agree with you. There is one thing for sure I know about this case:

Maria Lauterbach and her baby are dead and both Laureans are free as birds. One on the fly and one going about her daily routine in the marine corps.


:seeya:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by marinewife5


If he hadnt dumped the juice for the cover-up, he may have had more energy and wouldn't have had to stop and rest so soon LOL. And I don't have to tell ya how much a rug will slow ya down.

How on earth is he not in custody? I'm not questioning le, but geesh, he has some serious help or is pushing up daisies somewhere. jmo [/*]

Maybe that juice spashed in his eye and that's why he had to get the sunglasses?

(You know I vote for the daisies :D )

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Well, if he didn't care what she said, why leave notes telling her what to say? Why didn't he confess already to her?

If he figured he was never going to be caught, why bother with the "suicide" charade? [/*]

That was self serving for him. jmo

He was letting LE know Maria committed suicide and they shouldn't think he is a cold blooded murderer. jmo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I still don't know what you are expecting on the time of death. They know the day. Maria was last seen alive at 5 pm. Christina got home at 7pm. That means Maria died on the 14th between the hours of 5 pm and 7 pm. What about that don't you understand? That is what they need for trial.

LE is not only taking her word. They are investigating everything.

jmo [/*]

How are they investigating what went on behind closed doors in that home?

That is like saying when someone goes missing they are presumed dead at a certain time even though they may have not died at that time but later.:shrug:

They better have something more definitive than the words of a woman where most people in that county believe she is very much involved in this murder.

If that is it we can all expect the defense attorney to drive a Mack truck through that. All the buzz about CSL is not lost on them...they know how people feel in their own county.

imoo

[mini-me]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


How does any of that prove that Maria was killed between the hours of 5 and 7? [/*]Because CSL has to have LE believe that Maria was killed before 7. It's her alibi that she was not involved.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


That was self serving for him. jmo

He was letting LE know Maria committed suicide and they shouldn't think he is a cold blooded murderer. jmo [/*]

I thought you said he didn't care what Christina said. How can he not care what she says, but be so concerned about what LE thinks of him?

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


How are they investigating what went on behind closed doors in that home?

That is like saying when someone goes missing they are presumed dead at a certain time even though they may have not died at that time but later.:shrug:

They better have something more definitive than the words of a woman where most people in that county believe she is very much involved in this murder.

If that is it we can all expect the defense attorney to drive a Mack truck through that. All the buzz about CSL is not lost on them...they know how people feel in their own county.

imoo [/*]

I think they do. It's called forensics.':D

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I thought you said he didn't care what Christina said. How can he not care what she says, but be so concerned about what LE thinks of him? [/*]

The same way you can claim he has no conscience and turn around and say he won't put Christina out there because he would protect her.

Go figure. ;) JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by mini-me
Because CSL has to have LE believe that Maria was killed before 7. It's her alibi that she was not involved. [/*]

I am thinking that certainly benefits her, eh?

jmo:o

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I think they do. It's called forensics.':D [/*]

:D Forensics? Tells the time within a two hour window?

Please explain.

imoo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I thought you said he didn't care what Christina said. How can he not care what she says, but be so concerned about what LE thinks of him? [/*]

LOL because he is a self serving, stuck on himself, stellar marine. I actually believe he thinks someone will believe him. jmo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


:D Forensics? Tells the time within a two hour window?

Please explain.

imoo [/*]

Not what I said.

[strick10]

Originally posted by marinewife5


If he hadnt dumped the juice for the cover-up, he may have had more energy and wouldn't have had to stop and rest so soon LOL. And I don't have to tell ya how much a rug will slow ya down.

How on earth is he not in custody? I'm not questioning le, but geesh, he has some serious help or is pushing up daisies somewhere. jmo [/*]

He had plenty of time to get away. From the time he drove away to the time the LE actually started looking for him gave him even more time.

[caejde]

Originally posted by strick10


He had plenty of time to get away. From the time he drove away to the time the LE actually started looking for him gave him even more time. [/*]

Yep. Afterall, according to Christina he left at 4 am. She didn't get to the sheriff's department until 9 am. That's 5 hours. It only takes a couple to get to Raleigh. Noone was looking for him. There wasn't even a picture of him out until sometime around noon or a little after.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by caejde


Yep. Afterall, according to Christina he left at 4 am. She didn't get to the sheriff's department until 9 am. That's 5 hours. It only takes a couple to get to Raleigh. Noone was looking for him. There wasn't even a picture of him out until sometime around noon or a little after. [/*]

Did he leave at 4 or did she get up at 4 and he was writing letters or did she get up at 4 and found letters.....

:confused:

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by marinewife5


I wonder why he didn't take her with him, then? rather than leave her here to tell the story her way? just curious. [/*]
well that is something new to think about.. Thanks mw..
nothing new and everything is just getting rehashed and rehashed..
imo

[caejde]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Did he leave at 4 or did she get up at 4 and he was writing letters or did she get up at 4 and found letters.....

:confused: [/*]

Everything that I've read says he was last seen at 4 am.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by caejde


Everything that I've read says he was last seen at 4 am. [/*]

I thought Christina woke up at 4 am to find him gone and a note left for her. jmo

[strick10]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Maybe that juice spashed in his eye and that's why he had to get the sunglasses?

(You know I vote for the daisies :D ) [/*]
:lol:

[caejde]

County investigators say Christina Laurean told them she woke up after her husband had fled. However, Christina Laurean's parents, Bruce and Debby Shifflet, told CBS's "The Early Show" on Monday that their daughter had confronted her husband Friday morning and tried to get him to turn himself in.

http://www.jdnews.com/articles/laurean_54379___article.html/brown_lauterbach.html

[mini-me]

Originally posted by caejde
County investigators say Christina Laurean told them she woke up after her husband had fled. However, Christina Laurean's parents, Bruce and Debby Shifflet, told CBS's "The Early Show" on Monday that their daughter had confronted her husband Friday morning and tried to get him to turn himself in.

http://www.jdnews.com/articles/laurean_54379___article.html/brown_lauterbach.html [/*]If she woke up after he fled how does she know what time he left at? It could have been before 4AM then.

[caejde]

Originally posted by mini-me
If she woke up after he fled how does she know what time he left at? It could have been before 4AM then. [/*]

But how could she confront him if she was asleep?

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by caejde


But how could she confront him if she was asleep? [/*]

She didn't say she did.