April 7, 8 [Archive] - Page 2 - In Session Message Boards

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 01:11 AM

I found tons of links about eyewitness degradation over time .. this one summarizes it pretty well:

"It is common knowledge that memory degrades over time, but researchers have discovered that the rate at which eyewitness memory declines is swift, and the drop-off is sharp, in contrast to the more common view that memory degrades slowly and consistently as time passes. The "forgetting curve" of eyewitness memory has been shown to be "Ebbinghausian" in nature: it begins to drop off sharply within 20 minutes following the initial encoding, and continues to do so exponentially until it begins to level off around the second day at a dramatically reduced level of accuracy.[29]. And as noted above, eyewitness memory is increasingly susceptible to contamination as time passes.[30]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_identification

martha

04-08-2008, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

This is about Maria and she was never diagnosed with bipolar that we know of. jmo [/*] I know this is about maria i don;t have to be told that and i am sorry i even said anything about bypolar. jmho and some of my own thought on it. sorry forgive me for saying anything. some think i need a lesson on it tho.:rose:

martha

04-08-2008, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by nelkirk
It's not what I believe it is what I can prove using the evidential facts of the case.

A messageboard is a place where we reason together to get a better insight into the case. We each read things and understand them through the filter of our own life experiences. When we share these insignts we make inroads in the vast amount of information into this case.

Each of us has an opinion, but it isn't about one upmanship, but a cooperative endeavor to understanding the truth of the murder of ML.

And with that plea I have to go teach a class. [/*] you said this so well and ITA with you. I wish I could express my self as you have here. thanks for this post. Nelkirk you or a very smart poster. I pray all the poster will read this.:rose:

Leanne Weich

04-08-2008, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by nelkirk

There is a difference between labeling someone without any evidence and discussing something that is supported by what her family has stated.

CL is allegedly a murderer but he has not been charged with rape. So it is premature to be labeling him as such. [/*]

I personally believe it is of no use to rely on ML's assertion that Maria may have been BP. I was diagnosed BP at the age of 48 and the psychiatrist who eventually diagnosed me told me it usually takes an average of 10 years and a number of psychiatrists before a person is diagnosed. I haven't checked to see if there is literature that confirms this assertion. Just relaying what I was told by a professional who literally saved my life so, this is JMO.

damienstoy

04-08-2008, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Leanne Weich

I personally believe it is of no use to rely on ML's assertion that Maria may have been BP. I was diagnosed BP at the age of 48 and the psychiatrist who eventually diagnosed me told me it usually takes an average of 10 years and a number of psychiatrists before a person is diagnosed. I haven't checked to see if there is literature that confirms this assertion. Just relaying what I was told by a professional who literally saved my life so, this is JMO. [/*]

ITA. And as another poster stated there is a wide range of BP disorders. Not everyone who "tells whoppers" has BP, and not everyone with BP is automatically a liar.

JMO, but like Leanne, it is from personal experience.

martha

04-08-2008, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by Leanne Weich

I personally believe it is of no use to rely on ML's assertion that Maria may have been BP. I was diagnosed BP at the age of 48 and the psychiatrist who eventually diagnosed me told me it usually takes an average of 10 years and a number of psychiatrists before a person is diagnosed. I haven't checked to see if there is literature that confirms this assertion. Just relaying what I was told by a professional who literally saved my life so, this is JMO. [/*] I am so glad you got the help you needed. The right kind of help can save a person life. yes I think it does take a long time to tell if someone is bp. Thank GOD for you and I pray you or having a very good life now. :rose:

martha

04-08-2008, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by nelkirk

Yes and having lost my son I can identify with the Lauterbach family. [/*] thank you for telling your story. money is not the answ. it sure will not take the pain of loosing someone you love:rose:

martha

04-08-2008, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by damienstoy

ITA. And as another poster stated there is a wide range of BP disorders. Not everyone who "tells whoppers" has BP, and not everyone with BP is automatically a liar.

JMO, but like Leanne, it is from personal experience. [/*] ita people tell whoppers that sure or not bp. from what i read depression is such a big part of bp.jmho:rose:

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 07:55 AM

Good morning all. Maybe today will be the day.

P.S. I miss henry:(

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

This is about Maria and she was never diagnosed with bipolar that we know of. jmo [/*]

Yes, I know.

"We suspect that she probably is BIPOLAR and she's had a lot of struggles through the years. She's been a real loner, hasn't had a lot of friends, but one thing is she's very attached to home and would call several times a day." spoken word of Mary Lauterbach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHrHZgjx4Aw

You can also get information on where it's mentioned other places on the links thread. It's a great source for an education.

jmo

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

Yes, I know.

"We suspect that she probably is BIPOLAR and she's had a lot of struggles through the years. She's been a real loner, hasn't had a lot of friends, but one thing is she's very attached to home and would call several times a day." spoken word of Mary Lauterbach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHrHZgjx4Aw

You can also get information on where it's mentioned other places on the links thread. It's a great source for an education.

jmo [/*]

There was a segment on WITN this morning with Mary. As soon as it's on the website, i'll put the link here. It's the soccer game, and her talking about the mc protecting the accuser. Before the tape, it is reported that she admits calling maria a compuslive liar did not help the investigation. Paraphrasing on my part.

sexxytazz

04-08-2008, 08:21 AM

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by sexxytazz

Is it the same one that was on CNN yesterday?

Morning! [/*]

the tape was. I just found it interesting that with all the back and forth here on whether or not mary did indeed refer to maria as a compulsive liar, it is now settled. I know this can't be easy on her, but i think it's a courageous thing to admit. jmo

eta: morning to you too!:seeya:

sexxytazz

04-08-2008, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by marinewife5

the tape was. I just found it interesting that with all the back and forth here on whether or not mary did indeed refer to maria as a compulsive liar, it is now settled. I know this can't be easy on her, but i think it's a courageous thing to admit. jmo

eta: morning to you too!:seeya: [/*]

I agree!

Maria had not been found when Mary stated that. Back then, it was theory that Maria had just left....temper tantrum or whatnot.
My DD told me I would have said/done the same things if I thought she had just taken off in a fit of rage. I would have said most anything to the public if I thought my DD was someplace listening and that the statement would get her angry enough to respond. :shrug:

Mary can't take the words/actions back, but I have to wonder if that may have played a part back then.

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by sexxytazz

I agree!

Maria had not been found when Mary stated that. Back then, it was theory that Maria had just left....temper tantrum or whatnot.
My DD told me I would have said/done the same things if I thought she had just taken off in a fit of rage. I would have said most anything to the public if I thought my DD was someplace listening and that the statement would get her angry enough to respond. :shrug:

Mary can't take the words/actions back, but I have to wonder if that may have played a part back then. [/*]

If it were my daughter, i would not care who knew the good, the bad, and the ugly as long as I found her. I have to wonder what was going through cl's mind as he saw this all unfold on the news. Presuming csl knew nothing (i don't believe that, but we'll go with it as the story as it stands right now) and seeing that SB and OCSD were looking for a "runaway", why admit to everything that day? to csl or anyone else? jmo

sexxytazz

04-08-2008, 08:47 AM

I agree MW, I would have said anything and everything. We may never know what they were thinking.

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by marinewife5

There was a segment on WITN this morning with Mary. As soon as it's on the website, i'll put the link here. It's the soccer game, and her talking about the mc protecting the accuser. Before the tape, it is reported that she admits calling maria a compuslive liar did not help the investigation. Paraphrasing on my part. [/*]

I look forward to the day Mary finds peace and things like the myspace changes are irrelevant. I think what you are saying is perhaps a step closer to the reality of the situation MW, but I still rest on the idea that Mary and Peter seem to want to throw things like abandonment disorder in the mix to absolve themselves of perhaps not taking action to have Maria evaluated in her school years.

I have cited reasons I feel that way and I have linked the history before any rewrites and some after the rewrites too. IF they are seeking financial damages and changes I FEEL it is imperative they acknowledge their part in Maria going into the Marines and their suspicions because that road will be paved with harsh reality and the USMC and their attorneys will not be as protective as we have seen thusfar.

I continue to hope they get the answers they want, but am reluctant to believe they will be the ones they are hoping for based on what Maria was telling them. I think they entered a new dimension of the case when the reality of Maria having a relationship with Cesar came out. ALL JMO.

:(

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 09:18 AM

Morning Everyone!

I have been thinking.......there just has to be some truth about the bipolar subject. I just think the family was very honest with what they knew when this first came out.

We thought at first that Mary had told OCSD that Maria was bipolar and we have never really seen her original three page email to them so we do not know what all it entails or what was written by Mary. I do agree, at the time she was trying to give them an overall view of Maria and I do think when it first happened they suspected that she may have gone UA on her own. It makes me wonder if the Lauterbach family were aware of the other UAs in the past.

And then we have her very own Uncle who is a professional in this field, himself, saying that Maria had been diagnosed in the MC with Bi-polar. Why would he say this if it weren't true? Don't you think he most likely got this information directly from Maria? They seemed to be very close.

The Marine Corps would not divulge that confidential condition not even to OCSD imo for it had nothing to do with the crime they were investigating and the Corps must tread lightly when revealing someone's personal confidential medical records.

The only way I think it is relevant is it may help explain why Maria may have made erratic decisions at times that were not well thought out.

imoo

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

I look forward to the day Mary finds peace and things like the myspace changes are irrelevant. I think what you are saying is perhaps a step closer to the reality of the situation MW, but I still rest on the idea that Mary and Peter seem to want to throw things like abandonment disorder in the mix to absolve themselves of perhaps not taking action to have Maria evaluated in her school years.

I have cited reasons I feel that way and I have linked the history before any rewrites and some after the rewrites too. IF they are seeking financial damages and changes I FEEL it is imperative they acknowledge their part in Maria going into the Marines and their suspicions because that road will be paved with harsh reality and the USMC and their attorneys will not be as protective as we have seen thusfar.

I continue to hope they get the answers they want, but am reluctant to believe they will be the ones they are hoping for based on what Maria was telling them. I think they entered a new dimension of the case when the reality of Maria having a relationship with Cesar came out. ALL JMO.

:( [/*]

IMO, they are not entitled to any financial compensation, unless they go after the killer for wrongful death, in which case, there will be no $$$. And I agree with the whole truth, and nothing but the truth if it is in fact prevention they seek. It will never be acceptable for adults to do anything they want, and as long as it's someone else's fault, it's okay. Mary also reported on the recent CNN interview that she urged Maria to file the allegation. Perhaps there is guilt there for Mary as well. She mentioned the MC protecting the accuser more effectively. I believe they did everything they could (and chicky, i'm not interested in arguing whether cl should have been moved to another base. i respect your opinion, but we obviously disagree) and at some point we have a degree of responsiblility for our own safety, and honesty plays into that, imo. If maria believed that her trip to cl's would turn out as it had, I cannot believe she would have still gone there. jmo

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by marinewife5

no. there's no room on the main road (gum branch) and houses along north bryan (his street turns off that one). there's a self storage place and a garage, both gated and locked in the evening. his house is the second house in on a small street with a cul-de-sac. [/*]

A self storage place?

Interesting.

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze
Morning Everyone!

I have been thinking.......there just has to be some truth about the bipolar subject. I just think the family was very honest with what they knew when this first came out.

We thought at first that Mary had told OCSD that Maria was bipolar and we have never really seen her original three page email to them so we do not know what all it entails or what was written by Mary. I do agree, at the time she was trying to give them an overall view of Maria and I do think when it first happened they suspected that she may have gone UA on her own. It makes me wonder if the Lauterbach family were aware of the other UAs in the past.

And then we have her very own Uncle who is a professional in this field, himself, saying that Maria had been diagnosed in the MC with Bi-polar. Why would he say this if it weren't true? Don't you think he most likely got this information directly from Maria? They seemed to be very close.

The Marine Corps would not divulge that confidential condition not even to OCSD imo for it had nothing to do with the crime they were investigating and the Corps must tread lightly when revealing someone's personal confidential medical records.

The only way I think it is relevant is it may help explain why Maria may have made erratic decisions at times that were not well thought out.

imoo [/*]

I can't see that Maria was in the MC long enough to receive a diagnosis of bipolar in any form. It may have simply been something Maria told him. Her mistruths seem to have an attention seeking element to them, imo.

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by marinewife5

I can't see that Maria was in the MC long enough to receive a diagnosis of bipolar in any form. It may have simply been something Maria told him. Her mistruths seem to have an attention seeking element to them, imo. [/*]

I do agree with that MW5 but I really do think Peter was getting that information from someone and certainly not the Corps. This had to be told to him by Maria, herself.

Of course with us not really having any information that we can verify it does make me wonder if Maria knew she was going to most likely be discharged from the Corps for another reason she didn't want her family to know about and was possibly going to use this as the reason to her family if they did dismiss her.

imoo

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

I do agree with that MW5 but I really do think Peter was getting that information from someone and certainly not the Corps. This had to be told to him by Maria, herself.

Of course with us not really having any information that we can verify it does make me wonder if Maria knew she was going to most likely be discharged from the Corps for another reason she didn't want her family to know about and was possibly going to use this as the reason to her family if they did dismiss her.

imoo [/*]
That is an excellent point. I still don't think she was facing imminent (sp) discharge, but simply possible discharge. But it may have scared her enough to create a cover story for her family. jmo

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by marinewife5

That is an excellent point. I still don't think she was facing imminent (sp) discharge, but simply possible discharge. But it may have scared her enough to create a cover story for her family. jmo [/*]

TY.

I have always felt so sorry for Maria. I think she had to live two lives. The one she had in NC and the story she told to the Marine Corps and another for her family far away in Ohio. She seemed to tell them only things she knew they would accept and still have their love and approval.

imoo

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by marinewife5

I agree. It would help to know exactly where the car was and when, but we may never know for sure. I'm hoping that the "new" coverage may bring cl out from hiding. i'm sure he'll not be truthful, but at least fill in some of the blanks. jmo [/*]

If he is brought back and does decided to speak with his attorney present I think they will weigh what he says and see if the evidence backs his story up.

As you say we don't know that he will not be truthful.......he just may be forthright about it all and then LE will understand even more what happened and what transpired at certain time intervals.

imoo

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

If he is brought back and does decided to speak with his attorney present I think they will weigh what he says and see if the evidence backs his story up.

As you say we don't know that he will not be truthful.......he just may be forthright about it all and then LE will understand even more what happened and what transpired at certain time intervals.

imoo [/*]

i hope he is truthful. he has nothing to gain by lying. jmo

caejde

04-08-2008, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by marinewife5

i hope he is truthful. he has nothing to gain by lying. jmo [/*]

IA!

Howiefan

04-08-2008, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by marinewife5

i hope he is truthful. he has nothing to gain by lying. jmo [/*]
I don't know but I really cannot see a person who committed such a
horrific murder being truthful about anything.. I think everything will be blamed on maria..be it the truth or not.. and we will never know because she is dead..
jmo

Charlotte

04-08-2008, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by marinewife5

<respectfully snipped>

I believe they did everything they could (and chicky, i'm not interested in arguing whether cl should have been moved to another base. [/*]

I've argued that. Are you saying that I'm a banned poster?
Is anyone who holds that position "chicky?"
I'm not sure who exactly you're referring to, since your post quoted Candykisses, and seemed to be in reply to her.
:confused:

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Charlotte

I've argued that. Are you saying that I'm a banned poster?
Is anyone who holds that position "chicky?"
I'm not sure who exactly you're referring to, since your post quoted Candykisses, and seemed to be in reply to her.
:confused: [/*]

I wasn't aware chicky was banned. and she and i have had several discussions regarding the base move and we had agreed to disagree and didn't want her to feel i was trying to argue it with her again. I wasn't referring to you, sorry for the confusion.

martha

04-08-2008, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Howiefan

I don't know but I really cannot see a person who committed such a
horrific murder being truthful about anything.. I think everything will be blamed on maria..be it the truth or not.. and we will never know because she is dead..
jmo [/*] ITA I can;t see him telling the truth eather. If he wanted to be truthful then why is he on the run? we have very few facts on ml or cl or even csl. I think we will all be sup when the truth comes out and we may never know the truth. If he is ever brought to trial it may be closed and they will never tell us what really happened.:rose:

SavannahStar

04-08-2008, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by martha
ITA I can;t see him telling the truth eather. If he wanted to be truthful then why is he on the run?

*snipped*

[/*]

Actually that has happened before.....when a perpetrator comes through with the truth when all is said and done.

Remember Gary Hilton, killed that hiker. He "ran".....when he was picked up he confessed. And, as a matter of fact, gave a very detailed description of his crime.

Just sayin. You never know. We may hear the truth at some point from Cesar.

martha

04-08-2008, 11:07 AM

SS you may be correct i sure hope so. I want ml family to know the truth. no matter what the reason is he did not have to kill her. I just hope he is caught soon. maybe then we will have a little insight to this awful thing. :rose:

daniel green

04-08-2008, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
I don't want to open a can of worms... but there is not, as of now, a "test" to assess bipolar disorder:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23337532/
snipped

Also, bipolar disorder encompasses a range of disorders, some much more severe than others:

Kay Jamison is a psychologist who has BPD. Her biography is called An Unquiet Mind. [/*]

Yep.

Just as there is no test for Autism, etc.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by nelkirk
snipped

Each of us has an opinion, but it isn't about one upmanship, but a cooperative endeavor to understanding the truth of the murder of ML.

[/*]

Thank you, Nel. And right you are.

And the thing about opinions, of course, is that they are not just figments of our imaginations. They are based on some fact.

For instance, an opinion is not "I think there are dinosaurs in South America. IMO" That is just a figment of one's imagination.

However, if one were to say, "based on all scientific fact, and the fact that there are have been no dinosaurs seen in South America, etc and thus I believe there are no dinosaurs in S A, imo" then that is an opinion.

Just as if we said "I bet that ML had several abortions before she got pregnant this time. IMO" that would be a fiction of our over-fertile immagination, as there is nothing, no basis in fact, for that "opinion."

Same as with "CL was seen as a 'Macho Man, imo" or "CL had a disorder and lost his temper all the time, imo" is not an opinion. As neither statement is based on any fact.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by nelkirk

Is there one for ADHD? Just curious, with all the meds that have been dispensed! [/*]

No. Absolutely not.

It's the doc's "opinion." Which really makes one wonder, doesn't it? All those meds (speed) Rxd to children and adults. :(

daniel green

04-08-2008, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

snipped
My guess, and this is purely a guess, is that ML was exhibiting some symptoms that could be BPD. They could also be symptomatic of many, many other things.

JMO [/*]

That is my guess, too. Although I believe--due to what her uncle and mother said--that there had been some Dxing by a doc/docs.

Because that is what is done when a person is exhibiting symptoms of the disease.

It's a Dx by exclusion. You exclude all the organic things that could also cause such symptoms/behavior, and then the doc/docs can Dx with BPD.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by nelkirk

Right back to an opinion! And then medications based on an opinion.... [/*]

Well, with somethings such as BPD and Autism, there are tests that one can do to rule out any organic disease or genetic disorders, lots of psychological tests, observation, etc, and then a trained physician or team makes the diagonisis.

But just as with Autism there is a continium,

<-------------------------------------------->

with Asperger Syndrome at one end and profound Autism at the other,

the same goes for BPD with

<------------------------------------------->

moody at one end and profound BPD at the other.

martha

04-08-2008, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by nelkirk
I am not one of those who firmly believes that Maria was bipolar. I believe that Mary must have observed Maria exhibit some type of behavior that she and Peter suspected to be the onset of bipolar based on the fact that they already "suspected" Maria's father to be bipolar.

In many cases there is a familial link to bipolar. We have such in the family of a relative by marriage. His grandfather, father and sibliings are all bipolar and one factor through all their cases is that they were subjected to neglect and abuse during their formative years. The inability to cope with stress seems to be a factor in bipolar. This of course is JMO based on observation and interaction with this relative and his family over the past twenty years.

When stressed this relative can not tell the truth, he makes up grandious scenarios and tries to sell them to you. He loves to play mind games which of course is all about convincing someone to buy into your story. He usually has at least three storylines going at a time one for his employer, one for his wife and kids and one for whatever woman he wants to play mind games with. When one of his three storylines breaks down and one of his "victims" realizes they have been duped, he will go into survival mode. First he will go into denial, then be contrite, then begging, then make himself sick, then threatens suicide and finally depression, where he can not function without help.

At this point people rush to get him help, or cover the debts that he has run up, etc. He then "recovers" and the entire cycle begins again.

ETA Sorry to interrupt the discussion, I was answering an earlier post. [/*]ITA this is a very good post thanks nelkirk:rose: :rose:

Charlotte

04-08-2008, 11:56 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nelkirk

Is there one for ADHD? Just curious, with all the meds that have been dispensed! [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by daniel green

No. Absolutely not.

It's the doc's "opinion." Which really makes one wonder, doesn't it? All those meds (speed) Rxd to children and adults. :( [/*]

ITA, danielgreen! Very good point and observation, IMO.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

Yes, I know.

"We suspect that she probably is BIPOLAR and she's had a lot of struggles through the years. She's been a real loner, hasn't had a lot of friends, but one thing is she's very attached to home and would call several times a day." spoken word of Mary Lauterbach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHrHZgjx4Aw

You can also get information on where it's mentioned other places on the links thread. It's a great source for an education.

jmo [/*]

See, and that is the indication. Struggled through the yrs.

The uncle says that ML and her sister were in horrific abuse/neglect till ML was, what, 19 months?

Surely with a psychiatrist in the family, and whatever state agency removed those girls and placed them for adoption they would have had mental health care.

The uncle, a psychiatrist, talks about how ML was bipolar.

There is a lot on which to form an opinion that ML had problems and might have have had BPD.

Whether she did or not have BPD is no big deal to me. I think that all the evidence points to a young woman with a lot of problems and troubles with a history of such.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by nelkirk
snipped
All opinions backed up by facts gained through observation, experience or training... [/*]

Exactly.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 12:02 PM

daniel green

04-08-2008, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by marinewife5

snipped

I have to wonder what was going through cl's mind as he saw this all unfold on the news. Presuming csl knew nothing (i don't believe that, but we'll go with it as the story as it stands right now) and seeing that SB and OCSD were looking for a "runaway", why admit to everything that day? to csl or anyone else? jmo [/*]

WOW.

That is a great point.

Indeed, why tell???? :confused:

daniel green

04-08-2008, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze
Morning Everyone!

I have been thinking.......there just has to be some truth about the bipolar subject. I just think the family was very honest with what they knew when this first came out.

snipped[/*]

Good morning, GB.

I agree that there has to be something to it, as the info came from her mom and uncle.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 12:09 PM

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

See, and that is the indication. Struggled through the yrs.

The uncle says that ML and her sister were in horrific abuse/neglect till ML was, what, 19 months?

Surely with a psychiatrist in the family, and whatever state agency removed those girls and placed them for adoption they would have had mental health care.

The uncle, a psychiatrist, talks about how ML was bipolar.

There is a lot on which to form an opinion that ML had problems and might have have had BPD.

Whether she did or not have BPD is no big deal to me. I think that all the evidence points to a young woman with a lot of problems and troubles with a history of such. [/*]

I am of the same opinion Daniel and some of the things that professional spoke about are still sticking to my craw. I know I've more than voiced it, but I continue to worry about Anne and what has gone on with her as well as her adapting to a life without that one human being she shared it all with.

I have never factually made the claim about Maria being possibly bipolar myself, but having suspicions and hearing about certain behaviors does make you think. My guess is that Peter is quite capable of forming an opinion after hearing how close they were and it still saddens me that an evaluation to determine if their suspicions were correct wasn't done before the enlistment in the USMC. ALL JMO tho.

There are many behavior disorders with impulse control involved and it couldn't have hurt to have her evaluated from my POV.

When Cesar is finally captured, we may have a whole new pile of allegations if his family speaks out. But until then, we are left with some contradictory information and a mother who seems to be angry with the USMC and possibly blaming them for the murder of her daughter, which at this time I have found no tangible evidence to support the USMC being at fault.

AGAIN, JMO tho.:shrug:

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk

Is there one for ADHD? Just curious, with all the meds that have been dispensed! [/*]

Information on ADHD. Maria could have just as easily suffered with this instead of bipolar. The point is she has never been diagnosed with anything. jmo

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm

Kel65

04-08-2008, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk
Just last night DH asked me when CSL told LE about the body. His point being that with CL taking the fall and leaving, why bother telling anyone that you even knew it existed. Throw away the alleged note left by CL and just play dumb!

I should mention that DH's degree in Criminal Justice and he has both military police and civilian LE experience. [/*]

Interesting question.

I think CSL probably realized that the body was eventually going to be found and she needed the notes, so she wouldn't be accused of killing both ML and CAL, especially if she was going ot have sell, rent or foreclose the house. New owners could have easily dug up the body if they decided to get rid of the burn pit or a dog could have dug it up. If she had just let CAL disappear without turning in the note, even if it looked like he left to escape on his own accord, then there would be a lot more speculation about him even being alive and who may have killed him. JMO and speculation.

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 12:30 PM

SavannahStar

04-08-2008, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Because she decided to do the right thing.:shrug:

Because she was horrified.:shrug:

Because she had nothing to do with it.:shrug:

jmo [/*]

I totally agree with this.

SavannahStar

04-08-2008, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

Interesting question.

I think CSL probably realized that the body was eventually going to be found and she needed the notes, so she wouldn't be accused of killing both ML and CAL, especially if she was going ot have sell, rent or foreclose the house. New owners could have easily dug up the body if they decided to get rid of the burn pit or a dog could have dug it up. If she had just let CAL disappear without turning in the note, even if it looked like he left to escape on his own accord, then there would be a lot more speculation about him even being alive and who may have killed him. JMO and speculation. [/*]

You give her a lot more credit for brains and foreplanning than I do. I think Squawk has a better handle on her.

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 12:34 PM

Kel65

04-08-2008, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

You give her a lot more credit for brains and foreplanning than I do. I think Squawk has a better handle on her. [/*]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally don't believe that CSL is innocent in all of this.

SavannahStar

04-08-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally don't believe that CSL is innocent in all of this. [/*]

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, I never said or implied otherwise. And it's quite obvious that the majority of posters on here agree with your opinion.

I have no doubt one day we will find out the truth of CSL's involvement or lack thereof. I am patient!

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Information on ADHD. Maria could have just as easily suffered with this instead of bipolar. The point is she has never been diagnosed with anything. jmo

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm [/*]

There are many behavior disorders involving impulse control and this is significant when you think of a professional who is throwing back to attachment disorder post-bipolar suspicions revealed IMO.

IF they thought she suffered from any kind of disorder that was causing her to have struggles through the years, they owed it her to seek an evaluation.

The fear of medication for children is prevalent in America with the Ritalin generation growing up and if that's why they didn't seek an evaluation, then I am deeply saddened. Behavior therapy is used in conjunction and sometimes alone for treatment JMO.

:( Very sad.

Kel65

04-08-2008, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, I never said or implied otherwise. And it's quite obvious that the majority of posters on here agree with your opinion.

I have no doubt one day we will find out the truth of CSL's involvement or lack thereof. I am patient! [/*]

I was just making a generic statement about opinion. I never said that you said that or implied otherwise. No need to get so defensive. JMO

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

I dunno, she is the one person that the notes seem to exonerate. That's the importance of her keeping them and not trashing them.

JMO though.

ETA - the only thing he takes the fall for is burying the body, he doesn't confess (at least that's never been announced). [/*]

Yes, you're correct. I have yet to see that he confessed to murdering her as we see the word murderer beside his name all the time. :shrug:

No need for a trial Cryme. There's letters and a body. Good enough for some and I guess we should disregard the constitution IMO.;) J/K

SavannahStar

04-08-2008, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

I was just making a generic statement about opinion. I never said that you said that or implied otherwise. No need to get so defensive. JMO [/*]

I'm not defensive. Usually when someone posts "everyone is entitled to their opinion" in response to someone who posted a different opinion, they are the ones being defensive. IMO.

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 12:47 PM

I have a small update from a post i posted yesterday. The auto repair place is not gated. and the storage facility is a block past n. bryan. Just wanted to make sure i was giving accurate info. (i just drove past them and double checked)

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

Yes, you're correct. I have yet to see that he confessed to murdering her as we see the word murderer beside his name all the time. :shrug:

No need for a trial Cryme. There's letters and a body. Good enough for some and I guess we should disregard the constitution IMO.;) J/K [/*]

No one on this board has disregarded the constitution. imo

IUPG applies to the trial, judge, jury and not the general public and message boards. imo

Is the GJ disregarding the constitution by indicting him? Is the DA disregarding the constitution by charging him?

He will get a fair trial and that is what the constitution is all about. imo

All MOO

Charlotte

04-08-2008, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

<respectfully snipped>

I have never factually made the claim about Maria being possibly bipolar myself, but having suspicions and hearing about certain behaviors does make you think. My guess is that Peter is quite capable of forming an opinion after hearing how close they were and it still saddens me that an evaluation to determine if their suspicions were correct wasn't done before the enlistment in the USMC. ALL JMO tho.

There are many behavior disorders with impulse control involved and it couldn't have hurt to have her evaluated from my POV.
[/*]

Do we know that she was never evaluated?

Maybe they did have her evaluated during her childhood or adolescence, due to her early background and her family thinking that she may have had bipolar disorder.

Perhaps she was evaluated, and the diagnosis or opinion was that she did not suffer from bipolar disorder, despite whatever prompted the intial concerns.

We don't know that she was, or wasn't, evaluated, I don't believe. JMOO

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 12:50 PM

Kel65

04-08-2008, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

I'm not defensive. Usually when someone posts "everyone is entitled to their opinion" in response to someone who posted a different opinion, they are the ones being defensive. IMO. [/*]

Well, I don't like to think of myself as a usual type of person. I'm sorry that you interpreted something in a manner in which it was not intended.

Please, let's stop this back and forth and get back to the case. IMO

ETA wording in second sentence.

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by marinewife5
I have a small update from a post i posted yesterday. The auto repair place is not gated. and the storage facility is a block past n. bryan. Just wanted to make sure i was giving accurate info. (i just drove past them and double checked) [/*]

Thanks MW. Is that about a block from his house? Did you notice if any cars were parked around inside the parking lot? Does the storage facility have a large accessible parking lot with storage compartments?

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk

ML's mother and uncle knew her, they had observed her daily until she was 18 and enlisted in the Corps. Then according to her mother she stayed in very close touch by phone and long liberty ad leave trips. (DH used to make a weekend to OH when he was stationed at Lejeune). The uncle has gone on record that ML called him every two weeks. So he was n close contact with her.

The USMC is made up of individual Marines who had contact with each other in a very structured work setting. Many people with behavioral problems do well in this type of lifestyle because all they do is obey orders, they do not have a lot of stress in their lives. The symptoms of bipolar manifest when they are in a stressful situation. Unless they are observed while under stress exhibiting the symptoms, how is anyone going to observe them? Unless ML did something to bring attention to herself others wouldn't know that she had a problem.

So maybe the alleged UAs is a symptom of her trying to cope with stress. Stress can bring about symptoms of mental illness or adjustment problems.

Not everyone who enlists in the USMC actually earns the title of US Marine. Once a Marine always a Marine they earn the title and keep it even when they finish their time in the Corps. [/*]

Very well stated Nelkirk. I remember when Mary spoke out and was trying to set the record straight or rewrite history IMHO. She stated thatthe lies would happen when she was backed into a corner IIRC.

It had to be very stressful with what we do know. IF she was feeling pressure from the homefront to place the baby and she was having maternal feelings she was fighting that alone could be VERY STRESSFUL.

Then if her uncle was right when he said something about her trying to drop the allegations and the military not letting her IIRC, OMG, that would probably be way too overwhelming IMO.

After going back to the letter, I think the UA's may be a little telling about what was going on as well. With the new interest in getting this on screen, I wonder if we will get any information that they are seeking right now after they have it?

I can see many things we question and have curiosity over possibly being a result of feeling boxed in IMO. :(

ALL JMO based on reading for months on this case.

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Thanks MW. Is that about a block from his house? Did you notice if any cars were parked around inside the parking lot? Does the storage facility have a large accessible parking lot with storage compartments? [/*]

No, it is about 3/4 of a mile from his house. the parking lot was full and then some. The storage facility is a block from the garage (about a 1/4 mile) and is gated.

eta: i will measure the distance the first chance i get from both to his house.

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 01:08 PM

Maria was a normal teenager. Can anyone on this board say their teenagers never lied? If you can you were snowed. It is a right of passage.

Many young girls have some problems when they are going through puberty.

Can anyone on here say they never told a whopper? LOL

She had friends and was involved with sports. She had friends in the military.

I just don't see her as being any different then any other young person. She was only 20 years old when she died.

No one is "rewriting history". Her mother and uncle explained what they meant when their statements were twisted by the media. Media does that on a regular basis.

MOO

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by marinewife5

No, it is about 3/4 of a mile from his house. the parking lot was full and then some. The storage facility is a block from the garage (about a 1/4 mile) and is gated.

eta: i will measure the distance the first chance i get from both to his house. [/*]

That's OK. Your estimate is good enough for me.I believe he could have parked Maria's car at the auto repair shop overnight until he had time to move it to the bus station. In the early evening there were probably less cars there, but still enough cars to make another car not that noticeable to the public.

JMO

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box
Maria was a normal teenager. Can anyone on this board say their teenagers never lied? If you can you were snowed. It is a right of passage.

Many young girls have some problems when they are going through puberty.

Can anyone on here say they never told a whopper? LOL

She had friends and was involved with sports. She had friends in the military.

I just don't see her as being any different then any other young person. She was only 20 years old when she died.

No one is "rewriting history". Her mother and uncle explained what they meant when their statements were twisted by the media. Media does that on a regular basis.

MOO [/*]

I have no idea what your scale of normal is and how you come to your conclusions.

But, no, I have never met anyone who told a story like the lamp story and I myself have never done so either. While that doesn't qualify her for anything other than lying, it presented a problem with the USMC. If you believe Ms. Renna on the exaggerations from hysterectomy to adoption, then maybe it fits a pattern of some kind of lying behavior. I don't know and I'm not attempting to make it normal or bipolar.

HER FAMILY EXPRESSED they WERE SUSPECT of BIPOLAR. Her uncle is a psychiatrist, I am guessing he might know the signs and watched the struggles Mary refers to. But that is JMO.

She was long thru puberty when she is allegedly making inconsistent statetments to the USMC and describing two rape allegations and one to Mary.

The need to call home several times a day is an indication she was not ready to be in the USMC IMO given that Mary was actually screening her calls she called so much. KEY PIECE for me.

The latest rewrite of history is on the myspace and yes that is definitely rewriting history IMO and nuttintodo has both there for comparison in her album.

You are certainly entitled to believe what you want to believe but her family and the USMC have said otherwise and as a last call attachment disorder was given by Peter Steiner. It just saddens me period.

ALL JMO. :patriot:

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk

But your post only reflects a prejudice against CL. What is needed is a bias against the crime, which would lead you to look at the facts with an open mind.

Being a trained and experience investigator DH does not take sides..his job is to find the guilty party without prejudice based on the evidential facts of the case.

In other words he looks at it from all sides before he draws any conclusions. He hasn't been involved in this case until the past few days, so he is looking at this with fresh eyes.

CRS has stated that based on his training and experience he believes something... He weighs the evidence and then filters it through his experience and training without prejudice or preconceived judgement, looking at all of the participants equally and then formulates the way the crime went down and who is the most likely perpetrator. [/*]

Prejudice against CL? How is that? I thought we were talking about Christina? Didn't DH say he doesn't see why Christina didn't just get rid of the notes and say nothing?

jmo

martha

04-08-2008, 01:47 PM

martha

04-08-2008, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

I have no idea what your scale of normal is and how you come to your conclusions.

But, no, I have never met anyone who told a story like the lamp story and I myself have never done so either. While that doesn't qualify her for anything other than lying, it presented a problem with the USMC. If you believe Ms. Renna on the exaggerations from hysterectomy to adoption, then maybe it fits a pattern of some kind of lying behavior. I don't know and I'm not attempting to make it normal or bipolar.

HER FAMILY EXPRESSED they WERE SUSPECT of BIPOLAR. Her uncle is a psychiatrist, I am guessing he might know the signs and watched the struggles Mary refers to. But that is JMO.

She was long thru puberty when she is allegedly making inconsistent statetments to the USMC and describing two rape allegations and one to Mary.

The need to call home several times a day is an indication she was not ready to be in the USMC IMO given that Mary was actually screening her calls she called so much. KEY PIECE for me.

The latest rewrite of history is on the myspace and yes that is definitely rewriting history IMO and nuttintodo has both there for comparison in her album.

You are certainly entitled to believe what you want to believe but her family and the USMC have said otherwise and as a last call attachment disorder was given by Peter Steiner. It just saddens me period.

ALL JMO. :patriot: [/*] AMEN CK RIGHT ON:rose:

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by martha
AMEN CK RIGHT ON:rose: [/*]

Hi martha, and I know you're right about none of us really knowing what was going on between Maria and Cesar. I hope she is forever at peace now because it sounded like it was hard to find here for that young woman.

:rose: May you rock your baby in peace now Maria.

jmo

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by martha
did you know maria? i guess we have all told something wrong at sometimes in our lives but not like what she told about her brother. i agree you can;t always depend on the media. the uncle is a psychiatrist is he not and best i can rem he said she was bp am i wrong on this. I don;t want to say anything about her or her family because none of us know the truth. Is it possiable she feel in love with cl and he feel in love with her and maybe he was telling her all along he would leave with her when it was time for the baby to be borned??? jmho i don;t know what happened between the 2 of them. the mother has changed some of her story. not all just some.everyone has op:rose: [/*]

No Martha, I didn't know Maria. I agree with you on not wanting to say anything bad about her or her family because none of us know the truth. That's why I spend my time here defending her. She deserves that. imo
:rose:

martha

04-08-2008, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

No Martha, I didn't know Maria. I agree with you on not wanting to say anything bad about her or her family because none of us know the truth. That's why I spend my time here defending her. She deserves that. imo
:rose: [/*] i UNDERSTAND i have a lot of things go thru my mind of what could have been but I am not going to post any of that because it is just my thoughts and it would up set a lot of poster and i don; t want to do that. I just rem how very silly i was at the age of 20 and how much we want people to love us. my mother and daddy got a div when i was 6 years old and i did not understand that and i always prayed they would get back togeather, they both remarried and neather one of them wanted me. it is awful growing up with the feeling no one loves you so you do everything you can to get someone to love you just saying. I don;t want to hurt anyone about this case.:rose:

Jan Powell

04-08-2008, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

That's OK. Your estimate is good enough for me.I believe he could have parked Maria's car at the auto repair shop overnight until he had time to move it to the bus station. In the early evening there were probably less cars there, but still enough cars to make another car not that noticeable to the public.

JMO [/*]

Or, the murder was commited much later in the evening after CSL got home and the 15th was the accurate date. Apparently Maria at one point (at least) was a guest who drove herself there.

IMO, during daylight hour she was a guest and during the nighttime hours they were too busy to worry about a car that had sat there for several hours.

Also, if CL drove it, somebody picked him up, my guess it was CSL.

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 02:21 PM

This is a criminal case on a messageboard. I don't know about defenders and the criteria for such. Should we keep some things hidden or should we remove words on websites so it appears different?

I am an advocate of freedom of speech.

The idea that there were signals missed on the homefront is just as relevant as those some feel were missed by the USMC IMHO.

We have not put out anything the family themselves didn't and many of us have other findings that were inappropriate and never posted them here for that reason. I think there is a distinct difference between rumors floating and the words of the individuals themselves and the videos capturing those words.

That said, personal responsibility does enter into this case when you have the rape allegations and inconsistent statements. The idea that some of the inconsistent behavior could be attributed to suspicions her family had is not foreign to me or bad. I don't care for the way some things have come out to include remarks made by Uncle Peter and will say so. I seek to learn where everyone went wrong in a case like this, while looking for signs missed and what can be done to insure it doesn't happen again WITHIN REASON, and we have worked with the information out there up until this time.

As long as this is a forum for discussing the case, there are many aspects to a criminal case and victimology is one of them whether some of us like it or not IMO. :patriot:

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by martha
i UNDERSTAND i have a lot of things go thru my mind of what could have been but I am not going to post any of that because it is just my thoughts and it would up set a lot of poster and i don; t want to do that. I just rem how very silly i was at the age of 20 and how much we want people to love us. my mother and daddy got a div when i was 6 years old and i did not understand that and i always prayed they would get back togeather, they both remarried and neather one of them wanted me. it is awful growing up with the feeling no one loves you so you do everything you can to get someone to love you just saying. I don;t want to hurt anyone about this case.:rose: [/*]

Martha you are so sweet and kind. I love reading your posts. I remember how I was at that age also. I also raised a teenager. I see Maria as a young girl not different from most young people. imo

JMO

:rose:

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

Or, the murder was commited much later in the evening after CSL got home and the 15th was the accurate date. Apparently Maria at one point (at least) was a guest who drove herself there.

IMO, during daylight hour she was a guest and during the nighttime hours they were too busy to worry about a car that had sat there for several hours.

Also, if CL drove it, somebody picked him up, my guess it was CSL. [/*]

Here is my theory on ML's car. CL had to get rid of the car out of his driveway before his wife got home. He moved it to the auto repair shop parking lot and left it there until the 15th when he had more time to get it to the bus station. The parking lot was only about 3/4 mile from his house.

The next day when he had more time, he drove it to the bus station parking lot, and jogged home.

He told Christina, if she was home, he was going jogging and left in jogging clothes.

All together he only had about 7 miles to be on foot and I find it very hard to believe a Marine could not jog that far. Just saying........

I still do not believe Christina was involved in any of this crime and cover up.

MOO

martha

04-08-2008, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Martha you are so sweet and kind. I love reading your posts. I remember how I was at that age also. I also raised a teenager. I see Maria as a young girl not different from most young people. imo

JMO

:rose: [/*]Thank you for being so kind to me. when i look back now i hate some of the things i did but at the time i could not see the wrong in it. Thankgood GOD forgives us. I see her the same way just young and sometimes foolish. I have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue sy and somedays i get really bad depressed and ml could have been just having depresson being preg and all. i was that way after my first baby was borned i was so scared i would not know how to take care of him. she may not have been bp. she seemed to make it all good in high school. may GOD take care of her and her baby and he will from now on:rose:

caejde

04-08-2008, 02:36 PM

Jogging back on Gumbranch...little dangerous if you ask me. And being a former Marine, I would never do it. It's a very busy road, no sidewalks at all. And it would have taken him a good bit of time to do all that if he did...at least an hour. And just think if he never ran on his own time...wouldn't Christina be suspicious??

Jan Powell

04-08-2008, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

*SNIPPED*

I still do not believe Christina was involved in any of this crime and cover up.

MOO [/*]

I know you don't.

I don't think there was enough time for her NOT to be involved (unless they are wrong on most of the times they've stated).

Hopefully we'll find out who is right someday.

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk

Anyone who has read your past posts could have guessed that you would not look at CSL without prejudice. You consistently argue that CSL is innocent even when there is probable cause that she is at least complicit in this case. Therefore you show a prejudice against CL. In other words you are willing to give CSL the benefit of the doubt, but you are not willing to do the same for CL.

You consistently call hiim a rapist when there is no evidence that he did indeed rape anyone. Everytime it is discussed you already have a preconceived judgement that he id guilty.

That is a prejudice against CL. [/*]

Have I offended you in some way? If so I am sorry. I think your looking at my opinions as being prejudice is odd. I could say any other poster is prejudice against Christina who doesn't agree with me. It makes no sense.

Anyway my opinion is Cesar is guilty of murder and rape and Christina had nothing to do with the crime or cover up. Cesar did it all by himself.

PS I don't CONSTANTLY call him a rapist.

jmo

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by caejde
Jogging back on Gumbranch...little dangerous if you ask me. And being a former Marine, I would never do it. It's a very busy road, no sidewalks at all. And it would have taken him a good bit of time to do all that if he did...at least an hour. And just think if he never ran on his own time...wouldn't Christina be suspicious?? [/*]

IIRC, Lisa said he was a fast runner or something like that. But, regardless, I agree, IMO he either got a ride home from the bus station (or somewhere nearby) from a friend/relative/spouse or he took a cab. (This is assuming there are cabs in Jacksonville.)

JMO

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by caejde
Jogging back on Gumbranch...little dangerous if you ask me. And being a former Marine, I would never do it. It's a very busy road, no sidewalks at all. And it would have taken him a good bit of time to do all that if he did...at least an hour. And just think if he never ran on his own time...wouldn't Christina be suspicious?? [/*]

Is Gumbranch the only way he could have jogged?

No side streets?

I don't know if Christina would be suspicious or if that is the way he got back. It is a thought only.

I don't think Christina knew any thing about the car and didn't pick him up. That's all.

JMO

caejde

04-08-2008, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

IIRC, Lisa said he was a fast runner or something like that. But, regardless, I agree, IMO he either got a ride home from the bus station (or somewhere nearby) from a friend/relative/spouse or he took a cab. (This is assuming there are cabs in Jacksonville.)

JMO [/*]

Even if he was a fast runner...just say he could run 3 miles in 18 minutes. It's a good 7 miles from his house to the bus station and then another 7 back. So we're still talking if he ran all the way there and back it would be over an hour or more. They do have cabs here...but if he came back home without sweating...wouldn't that look suspicious? Wouldn't it look suspicious if he never ran on the weekends? I know back at Thanksgiving I believe it was my husband was going to take a walk up the road while we were at his parents. Now after being married almost 5 years, I thought that was strange and questioned him. Not that he was hiding anything but just thought it odd that I'd never seen him do it before. He used to do it a good bit when he lived at home.

caejde

04-08-2008, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Is Gumbranch the only way he could have jogged?

No side streets?

I don't know if Christina would be suspicious or if that is the way he got back. It is a thought only.

I don't think Christina knew any thing about the car and didn't pick him up. That's all.

JMO [/*]

I've only lived here a few months so I don't know what side streets take you where. But the easiest would have been straight down Gumbranch to 17 or turning right on Henderson and taking Henderson to 17.

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Even if he was a fast runner...just say he could run 3 miles in 18 minutes. It's a good 7 miles from his house to the bus station and then another 7 back. So we're still talking if he ran all the way there and back it would be over an hour or more. They do have cabs here...but if he came back home without sweating...wouldn't that look suspicious? Wouldn't it look suspicious if he never ran on the weekends? I know back at Thanksgiving I believe it was my husband was going to take a walk up the road while we were at his parents. Now after being married almost 5 years, I thought that was strange and questioned him. Not that he was hiding anything but just thought it odd that I'd never seen him do it before. He used to do it a good bit when he lived at home. [/*]

You missed my theory. He would have gone 3/4 of a mile to the auto repair parking lot and got Maria's car. He would have driven her car to the bus station parking lot. He would have jogged back to his house from there making the jog only about 6 miles total. Not hard to do and he could have taken side street. jmo

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Is Gumbranch the only way he could have jogged?

No side streets?

I don't know if Christina would be suspicious or if that is the way he got back. It is a thought only.

I don't think Christina knew any thing about the car and didn't pick him up. That's all.

JMO [/*]

Here is a map from Nuttin's album that contains all the major places in this crime.

http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/?action=view&current=1200146269-lauterbacktimelinemap.jpg

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Even if he was a fast runner...just say he could run 3 miles in 18 minutes. It's a good 7 miles from his house to the bus station and then another 7 back. So we're still talking if he ran all the way there and back it would be over an hour or more. They do have cabs here...but if he came back home without sweating...wouldn't that look suspicious? Wouldn't it look suspicious if he never ran on the weekends? I know back at Thanksgiving I believe it was my husband was going to take a walk up the road while we were at his parents. Now after being married almost 5 years, I thought that was strange and questioned him. Not that he was hiding anything but just thought it odd that I'd never seen him do it before. He used to do it a good bit when he lived at home. [/*]

IMO, I don't think he ran home from the bus station. I think he got a ride or took a cab. Maybe he had the cabbie drop him off a block or two from the house? I don't know, I am just thinking aloud!

IvySterling

04-08-2008, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Even if he was a fast runner...just say he could run 3 miles in 18 minutes. It's a good 7 miles from his house to the bus station and then another 7 back. So we're still talking if he ran all the way there and back it would be over an hour or more. They do have cabs here...but if he came back home without sweating...wouldn't that look suspicious? Wouldn't it look suspicious if he never ran on the weekends? I know back at Thanksgiving I believe it was my husband was going to take a walk up the road while we were at his parents. Now after being married almost 5 years, I thought that was strange and questioned him. Not that he was hiding anything but just thought it odd that I'd never seen him do it before. He used to do it a good bit when he lived at home. [/*]
Since you're familar with the area caejde could CL have parked Maria's car behind his place where the MobileHome park is? I noticed in photos that there's a road right behind his house.

I read a post on a MySpace page by someone who lives in that MHP who posted that CAL's house was right behind hers, she mentioned the camera crews and said the detectives went knocking door to door. She then mentioned the smell.

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

IMO, I don't think he ran home from the bus station. I think he got a ride or took a cab. Maybe he had the cabbie drop him off a block or two from the house? I don't know, I am just thinking aloud! [/*]

Maybe a public bus runs somewhere from the bus station closer to where he lives also.

jmo

caejde

04-08-2008, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

You missed my theory. He would have gone 3/4 of a mile to the auto repair parking lot and got Maria's car. He would have driven her car to the bus station parking lot. He would have jogged back to his house from there making the jog only about 6 miles total. Not hard to do and he could have taken side street. jmo [/*]

If I'm not mistaken, no side streets would have taken him back to his house. There are side streets all along Gumbranch Rd. but they all go to different places. It still could have taken close to an hour. He wouldn't have been able to keep up a fast pace running 7 miles. ( I didn't mean to say he was running 7 there, 7 back...meant it was 7 to and from)

caejde

04-08-2008, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

Since you're familar with the area caejde could CL have parked Maria's car behind his place where the MobileHome park is? I noticed in photos that there's a road right behind his house.

I read a post on a MySpace page by someone who lives in that MHP who posted that CAL's house was right behind hers, she mentioned the camera crews and said the detectives went knocking door to door. She then mentioned the smell. [/*]

At this point, I guess anything is possible but I think it would have been noticed in the mobile home park.

IvySterling

04-08-2008, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by caejde

At this point, I guess anything is possible but I think it would have been noticed in the mobile home park. [/*]
Thanks caejde!

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk

I didn't say that you constantly call him a rapist..I said consistently..

And no you have not offended me.

To view someone with prejudice means that you see them as guilty..you have prejudged them to ge guilty and nothing is going to change your mind. Because of this you fail to see that there are other possibilities...

When others question some of the inconsistencies in CSL's version of what happened and her innocence, you refuse to even consider them. And that is because you have decided that CL is guilty no matter where if there is evidence to the contrary.

While others may think think that CLis guilty, they are willing to have the evidence change their minds. You are not. And that is not a condemnation of you or your opinion...it is just an explaination. [/*]

I have also looked at all the evidence for a long time now and have considered everything.

I have come to my opinions by doing just that.
I didn't pull my opinions out of thin air. I can't imagine actually what you are talking about.
jmo

caejde

04-08-2008, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Here is a map from Nuttin's album that contains all the major places in this crime.

http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/?action=view&current=1200146269-lauterbacktimelinemap.jpg [/*]

Thanks for that. So, while there are side streets, none of them would have helped getting him home from the bus station.

At this point, it's hard to say how he got home from the bus station. But I don't think he got back by running.

SavannahStar

04-08-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk

To view someone with prejudice means that you see them as guilty..you have prejudged them to ge guilty and nothing is going to change your mind. Because of this you fail to see that there are other possibilities...

*snipped*

[/*]

Actually I see this happening far more often with Christina, nelkirk. There is one poster who isn't on here an awful lot (not naming names) but almost every one of her posts contains something like (paraphrased): "I will never change my mind, I believe Christina is involved in at least the cover up of the crime, and even if she is never charged I will always think she is guilty. There is NO WAY in the world she could not have known what was going on."

For the most part, I love your posts nelkirk.

I don't think Christina is guilty of anything and at some point we will all know that. But I am absolutely 100% willing to eat crow if I am wrong.

:seeya:

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 03:58 PM

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Thanks for that. So, while there are side streets, none of them would have helped getting him home from the bus station.

At this point, it's hard to say how he got home from the bus station. But I don't think he got back by running. [/*]

I don't think he ran either. Let's see, IF he's a fast runner and does 6 minute miles, it's 7 miles +/- from the bus station, that's a minimum of 42 minutes. Even if he took a cab, he's not knocking a lot off of that time (Plus I think a cab driver would have already come forward by now, but that's jmo).

Now his timeline's tight enough with arguing, murdering, changing clothes, cleaning up, driving to the bus station, and running home. All in an alleged hour and a half.

I don't think so.

JMO

caejde

04-08-2008, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

I agree after seeing the map. What about public buses. Do they run from the area of the bus station back to an area close to CL's? [/*]

I personally haven't seen public transportation buses. I don't know if they are here in Jacksonville or not. If they are, I've never seen them.

caejde

04-08-2008, 04:04 PM

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 04:08 PM

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

Since you're familar with the area caejde could CL have parked Maria's car behind his place where the MobileHome park is? I noticed in photos that there's a road right behind his house.

I read a post on a MySpace page by someone who lives in that MHP who posted that CAL's house was right behind hers, she mentioned the camera crews and said the detectives went knocking door to door. She then mentioned the smell. [/*]

that is a private road and i couldn't find a place to pull over without being in someone's yard. jmo

marinewife5

04-08-2008, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Maybe a public bus runs somewhere from the bus station closer to where he lives also.

jmo [/*]
we don't have public buses here.

Kel65

04-08-2008, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by caejde

I personally haven't seen public transportation buses. I don't know if they are here in Jacksonville or not. If they are, I've never seen them. [/*]

When I lived in Jacksonville, I never saw local area public transportation buses, however there were a ton of taxis. Just my experience.

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

I don't think he ran either. Let's see, IF he's a fast runner and does 6 minute miles, it's 7 miles +/- from the bus station, that's a minimum of 42 minutes. Even if he took a cab, he's not knocking a lot off of that time (Plus I think a cab driver would have already come forward by now, but that's jmo).

Now his timeline's tight enough with arguing, murdering, changing clothes, cleaning up, driving to the bus station, and running home. All in an alleged hour and a half.

I don't think so.

JMO [/*]

No cryme. Not on the 14th when the murder occurred. I am saying he had to get rid of Maria's car in a hurry before Christina came home so he parked the car overnight on the 14th close to his house like at the auto repair shop. The next day on the 15th when he had much more time he moved the car to the bus station.

There would be no time limit getting back to his house. That is why I thought about jogging or even walking back. No time limit.

I thought about on foot because any public transportation like a cab, the cabbie would have come forward. Even if he hitched a ride or a bus it would be to dangerous. So if he has plenty of time on the 15th, why not walk or jog. Just saying............

jmo

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 04:14 PM

IvySterling

04-08-2008, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by marinewife5

that is a private road and i couldn't find a place to pull over without being in someone's yard. jmo [/*]
Thank you also mw!

Jan Powell

04-08-2008, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

Or a friend unbeknownst to them Jan, but I tend to think CSL too simply with the in for a penny, in for a pound you have ingrained in my thought process. JMO tho. :cool: [/*]

My Mom ingrained that in my thought process when I was an unruly teen. I threatened my kids with it too, i.e., their lightbulb moments to tell the truth.

An unbeknownst friend is possible, like the Lowe's trip must have been. But if CSL and the car were both there at the same time why explain to someone else why Maria's car was there? Too dangerous, IMO.

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

My Mom ingrained that in my thought process when I was an unruly teen. I threatened my kids with it too, i.e., their lightbulb moments to tell the truth.

An unbeknownst friend is possible, like the Lowe's trip must have been. But if CSL and the car were both there at the same time why explain to someone else why Maria's car was there? Too dangerous, IMO. [/*]

You were an unruly teen? Did you lie? Did you ever tell a whopper? Did your kids? Were any of you considered bipolar like Maria for doing the same things? I sure lied as a teen and told some whoppers. So did my teenager. Even into my early twenties when it came to my parents. I wasn't bipolar and my son wasn't bipolar. Just saying.............

I was usually in it for the pound.

jmo:D

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

My Mom ingrained that in my thought process when I was an unruly teen. I threatened my kids with it too, i.e., their lightbulb moments to tell the truth.

An unbeknownst friend is possible, like the Lowe's trip must have been. But if CSL and the car were both there at the same time why explain to someone else why Maria's car was there? Too dangerous, IMO. [/*]

He only needed a ride home from the bus station (or somewhere nearby where he walked). The friend wouldn't even have to know about ML's car.

And that goes for cabbies, too. He could have walked a few blocks from the bus station, then called a cab.

JMO

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 05:08 PM

But then why does the neighbor see Cesar driving the car/pulling in to his driveway/backing out of the driveway (whichever it was) on or around the 16th?

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe this is yet one more thing to add to the list of "Things Christina never observed or noticed".

It's getting more and more illogical.

IMO

daniel green

04-08-2008, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

The point is she has never been diagnosed with anything. jmo
snipped

[ [/*]

Frankly, you have no idea if ML was ever Dxd with something or not.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

I dunno, she is the one person that the notes seem to exonerate. That's the importance of her keeping them and not trashing them.

snipped[/*]

Strange that, huh?

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006
But then why does the neighbor see Cesar driving the car/pulling in to his driveway/backing out of the driveway (whichever it was) on or around the 16th?

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe this is yet one more thing to add to the list of "Things Christina never observed or noticed".

It's getting more and more illogical.

IMO [/*]

I am not saying whether CSL observed the car or not in the driveway. I am just trying to figure out how he got back from the bus station after he dropped off ML's car on whatever day he dropped it off. I said in an earlier post that he could have gotten a ride from a friend/relative/spouse or taken a cab.

A couple of us have theorized that he drove the car somewhere nearby on Dec 14 and walked back to the house. Then a couple of days later, he took her car to the bus station.

It also could be that the neighbor who saw the car around Dec 16 in the driveway could have actually seen it on Dec 14 (since that is only 2 days different).

JMO, and trying to figure out some of the details!

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

Strange that, huh? [/*]

Yeah, strange.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Charlotte

Do we know that she was never evaluated?

snipped[/*]

Well her uncle does say she was Dxd with BPD.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box
Maria was a normal teenager. snipped[/*]

You have no idea of that.

None.

However, her family says she was troubled.

But, hey, what do they know? :rolleyes:

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

I am not saying whether CSL observed the car or not in the driveway. I am just trying to figure out how he got back from the bus station after he dropped off ML's car on whatever day he dropped it off. I said in an earlier post that he could have gotten a ride from a friend/relative/spouse or taken a cab.

A couple of us have theorized that he drove the car somewhere nearby on Dec 14 and walked back to the house. Then a couple of days later, he took her car to the bus station.

It also could be that the neighbor who saw the car around Dec 16 in the driveway could have actually seen it on Dec 14 (since that is only 2 days different).

JMO, and trying to figure out some of the details! [/*]

And it could also be that Christina picked him up. And he could have moved it on the 14th and Christina still could have picked him up.

I still say there was not enough time before Christina returned from the party to argue, kill, clean up, change clothes, move cars and be sitting there whistling Dixie when she came through the door.

IMO

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 05:27 PM

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

And it could also be that Christina picked him up. And he could have moved it on the 14th and Christina still could have picked him up.

I still say there was not enough time before Christina returned from the party to argue, kill, clean up, change clothes, move cars and be sitting there whistling Dixie when she came through the door.

IMO [/*]

I completely agree that the timeline is extremely short. Due to that, IMO, CL had to put ML's car nearby if I am to believe that CL is the murderer and CSL knew nothing about it. (that is only one of my theories!)

JMO

daniel green

04-08-2008, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES
This is a criminal case on a messageboard. I don't know about defenders and the criteria for such. snipped: [/*]

I just don't get it. I really don't.

How does any victim need defending, after death?

And from what does a victim need defense?

And is this not a crime mssg board to discuss the crime?

TIA

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

And it could also be that Christina picked him up. And he could have moved it on the 14th and Christina still could have picked him up.

I still say there was not enough time before Christina returned from the party to argue, kill, clean up, change clothes, move cars and be sitting there whistling Dixie when she came through the door.

IMO [/*]

I'd say he was whistling Dixie in the shower. :D

jmo

Howiefan

04-08-2008, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

Frankly, you have no idea if ML was ever Dxd with something or not. [/*]
oh I think if she had been diagnosed with something we would have heard about it
jmo

daniel green

04-08-2008, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

snipped

Now his timeline's tight enough with arguing, murdering, changing clothes, cleaning up, driving to the bus station, and running home. All in an alleged hour and a half.

[/*]

Maybe he has magic or something. Some super power. :confused:

daniel green

04-08-2008, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan

oh I think if she had been diagnosed with something we would have heard about it
jmo [/*]

But we have heard it.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 05:42 PM

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

You do realize that lying is not BPD, right?

That those are separate issues? [/*]

I'm glad you agree. Her mother said Maria was a compulsive liar. It certainly was not bipolar. imo

Besides I think lying is more adhd, don't you?

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

But we have heard it. [/*]

From who? We haven't heard it from the MC who was supposed to have treated her according to Uncle Peter. We have seen no
diagnosis from HER doctor if there was one.
All we have heard is speculation. imo

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

Maybe he has magic or something. Some super power. :confused: [/*]

Ya think?:shrug:

caejde

04-08-2008, 05:59 PM

daniel green

04-08-2008, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Maybe it's a magic carpet? ;) [/*]

hahahahahahahhaha

Now, THAT was funny.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Her mother said Maria was a compulsive liar. snipped
[/*]

Yep. And that she thought ML was BPD.

Her uncle also said it and even said she was being treated for it.

But we could not beat that horse any deader. We all know that.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 06:15 PM

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 06:15 PM

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

Yep. And that she thought ML was BPD.

Her uncle also said it and even said she was being treated for it.

But we could not beat that horse any deader. We all know that. [/*]

lol You brought it up.:shrug:

Fact is Maria was never diagnosed with bipolar that we know of. jmo

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk
Okay, time for another strange twist in this case, as reported by the media:

http://www.waaytv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7611174

If I understand this right: Roshaun Hames the ticket seller said that Lauterbach was to scheduled to use the ticket on December 15th, the day that her car was left near the station.

Not the 14th?! [/*]

So she drives off on the 14th after purchasing the ticket and the car magically reappears on the 15th in the parking lot.

Now the question remains, where was the car from the time she left the bus station until it was taken back to the parking lot?

In Cesar's garage?
At the garage down the street?
Parked in Cesar's driveway?

Remember, we have no idea what all was in that garage on the 14th of December. It could have been clear as a bell and Maria parked her own car in there. That *could* mean that she was running back to the garage where her car was when she was killed.

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk
December is the one of the busiest travel periods to visit family. The car could probably be passed off as a visitor stopping over night and moving on the next day.

That being the case the car could have been moved the next day by the murderer and parked by the bus station...then the murderer went into Checkers and bought a snack, called a friend to pick him up. He could always use the excuse that his vehicle was in the shop and it was supposed to be something that could be repaired while he waited, but after they tore it down they found something else wrong with it and couldn't get the parts delivered until Monday.

When asked why CSL didn't pick him up...he could have said she was Christmas shopping.

JMO JMO JMO [/*]

But the person drives him home and there sits his truck and in all likelihood, Christina's car?

:shrug:

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

So she drives off on the 14th after purchasing the ticket and the car magically reappears on the 15th in the parking lot.

Now the question remains, where was the car from the time she left the bus station until it was taken back to the parking lot?

In Cesar's garage?
At the garage down the street?
Parked in Cesar's driveway?

Remember, we have no idea what all was in that garage on the 14th of December. It could have been clear as a bell and Maria parked her own car in there. That *could* mean that she was running back to the garage where her car was when she was killed. [/*]

That sounds very reasonable to me. If the heated argument started in the living room or dinning room she would have fled into the garage trying to get into her car to lock the doors so whomever couldn't get to her and she would try to drive away.

I think she was waylaid before she reached her car.

imoo

nuttintodo

04-08-2008, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

So she drives off on the 14th after purchasing the ticket and the car magically reappears on the 15th in the parking lot.

Now the question remains, where was the car from the time she left the bus station until it was taken back to the parking lot?

In Cesar's garage?
At the garage down the street?
Parked in Cesar's driveway?

Remember, we have no idea what all was in that garage on the 14th of December. It could have been clear as a bell and Maria parked her own car in there. That *could* mean that she was running back to the garage where her car was when she was killed. [/*]

Yes, it could mean that. We do not know how cluttered or uncluttered the Laurean's garage was on 12/14-12/15.

So it's very possible that Maria's car was in the garage and when the argument became heated inside the house, she attempted to get back to her vehicle but unfortunately she was stopped, dead in her tracks.

jmo

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Yes, it could mean that. We do not know how cluttered or uncluttered the Laurean's garage was on 12/14-12/15.

So it's very possible that Maria's car was in the garage and when the argument became heated inside the house, she attempted to get back to her vehicle but unfortunately she was stopped, dead in her tracks.

jmo [/*]

That car had to be gone from the driveway before Christina returned home from the party at 7pm. jmo

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

That car had to be gone from the driveway before Christina returned home from the party at 7pm. jmo [/*]

We don't know that it was moved before Christina got home. For all we know, it could have been sitting right there until the next day when it was moved by whoever moved it.

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk

For all we know he moved them around during the early morning. What neighbor (besides the Alanders) really asks why a neighbor is parking his car/truck out along the street. They would probably assume that they were cleaning the garage (fat chance) or expecting company.

CSL could already have plans to take her daughter and go Christmas shopping with her sister or whatever.

And an unsuspecting friend isn't going to look for your truck parked on the street since you have already told him that it is in the shop. [/*]

You mean the early morning of the 14th or the 15th?

See that's just too much maneuvering around, IMO. I can see where Maria's car could have been moved that night, or the next day, but Cesar moving his truck somewhere else just to have a backup story? Why not just move the truck closer to the bus station and then he doesn't have to call anybody?

(BTW, I believe that Cesar may have moved the car but I also believe that Christina was his ride back home. That's jmo though).

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Yes, it could mean that. We do not know how cluttered or uncluttered the Laurean's garage was on 12/14-12/15.

So it's very possible that Maria's car was in the garage and when the argument became heated inside the house, she attempted to get back to her vehicle but unfortunately she was stopped, dead in her tracks.

jmo [/*]

It would also explain why she didn't run out the front door or the back door, but instead ran straight to the garage (which was definitely not a straight shot out of the house).

IMOO

strick10

04-08-2008, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

It would also explain why she didn't run out the front door or the back door, but instead ran straight to the garage (which was definitely not a straight shot out of the house).

IMOO [/*]

I think the events began in the dining/kitchen area and the garage door was the closest exit she saw.

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

We don't know that it was moved before Christina got home. For all we know, it could have been sitting right there until the next day when it was moved by whoever moved it. [/*]

Wouldn't Christina be a tad suspicious? What would he have told her? As we know now, LE has no probable cause to charge her. That sure would be enough probable cause to charge her with complicity in the cover up, no?

jmo

IvySterling

04-08-2008, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

That car had to be gone from the driveway before Christina returned home from the party at 7pm. jmo [/*]
I don't think it was parked in the driveway, I think it was parked out at the street..............JMO

crymeariver2006

04-08-2008, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Wouldn't Christina be a tad suspicious? What would he have told her? As we know now, LE has no probable cause to charge her. That sure would be enough probable cause to charge her with complicity in the cover up, no?

jmo [/*]

Yes, she would be suspicious (which is what some of us have said all along).

I don't have any idea what he would have told her to explain another car in the garage. She *could* have already known whose car it was and why it was there.

Yes, as we know now, however in order for them to have charged her with complicity in the coverup, she would have had to have admitted her part in it or an eyewitness. Right now, all they have is letters which don't implicate her, and her statements, which of course wouldn't implicate her...and forensic evidence which could implicate either one of them or both of them since they both lived in the same house.

Her not being charged YET is not the "smoking gun" of her innocence.

JMO and all that.

sunstar

04-08-2008, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

And it could also be that Christina picked him up. And he could have moved it on the 14th and Christina still could have picked him up.

I still say there was not enough time before Christina returned from the party to argue, kill, clean up, change clothes, move cars and be sitting there whistling Dixie when she came through the door.

IMO [/*]
And I still think that's how he got back from the bus station after leaving Maria's car there. The neighbor said he saw CL driving Maria's car so I do think he had it for a couple of days.

sunstar

04-08-2008, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

Maybe he has magic or something. Some super power. :confused: [/*]
Maybe that's why LE hasn't found him yet ~ he just vanished into thin air! :D

sunstar

04-08-2008, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

I don't think it was parked in the driveway, I think it was parked out at the street..............JMO [/*]
Didn't the neighbor say it was out by the garbage can and Christmas tree? From the photos I saw of the front of the house and that would put the car out in front, on the street.

IvySterling

04-08-2008, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by sunstar

Didn't the neighbor say it was out by the garbage can and Christmas tree? From the photos I saw of the front of the house and that would put the car out in front, on the street. [/*]
Yes, that's where Malo Menard said he saw it parked.

Edited to add:

I think MM was using where the trash can & discarded Christmas tree was at the time of his interview to only reference as to where he had seen the car parked prior.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

That sounds very reasonable to me. If the heated argument started in the living room or dinning room she would have fled into the garage trying to get into her car to lock the doors so whomever couldn't get to her and she would try to drive away.

I think she was waylaid before she reached her car.

imoo [/*]

That just sounds so right to me.

daniel green

04-08-2008, 09:22 PM

daniel green

04-08-2008, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

snipped

Her not being charged YET is not the "smoking gun" of her innocence.

JMO and all that. [/*]

No, it isn't.

But it appears that some folks don't know what "probable cause" is.

strick10

04-08-2008, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

Yes, that's where Malo Menard said he saw it parked.

Edited to add:

I think MM was using where the trash can & discarded Christmas tree was at the time of his interview to only reference as to where he had seen the car parked prior. [/*]

And if the murder happened on the 14th as LE has stated then there is no way CAL would've had time to move it before Christina came home at 7:00 unless someone else moved it on that day. I'm thinking that part of the 1/2 truths from his letter is that the 15th is when Maria was actually murdered.

sunstar

04-08-2008, 09:37 PM

baywench

04-08-2008, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

No, it isn't.

But it appears that some folks don't know what "probable cause" is. [/*]

Unless you believe that as a female she is another victim....

sunstar

04-08-2008, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by strick10

And if the murder happened on the 14th as LE has stated then there is no way CAL would've had time to move it before Christina came home at 7:00 unless someone else moved it on that day. I'm thinking that part of the 1/2 truths from his letter is that the 15th is when Maria was actually murdered. [/*]
Do you think it was just after midnight, early morning or later in the day? I thought the bus was supposed to leave in the morning and where would Maria have spent the night?

daniel green

04-08-2008, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by baywench

Unless you believe that as a female she is another victim.... [/*]

My bad.

hammer to me for not remembering that maxim.

baywench

04-08-2008, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

My bad.

hammer to me for not remembering that maxim. [/*]

Really DG, you have been away too long! LOL

baywench

04-08-2008, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by sunstar

Do you think it was just after midnight, early morning or later in the day? I thought the bus was supposed to leave in the morning and where would Maria have spent the night? [/*]

I have always thought that it was later in the evening and maybe even after midnight, making the actually death on the 15th. JMO

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by sunstar

Do you think it was just after midnight, early morning or later in the day? I thought the bus was supposed to leave in the morning and where would Maria have spent the night? [/*]

Sunstar... I remember we checked the bus schedule a couple of months ago, and the bus for El Paso left twice a day - can't remember the time it left in the morning, but the evening time was 5:20 pm, IIRC.

sunstar

04-08-2008, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by baywench

I have always thought that it was later in the evening and maybe even after midnight, making the actually death on the 15th. JMO [/*]
I agree, if it was actually on the 15th that it'd be right after midnight.

sunstar

04-08-2008, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Sunstar... I remember we checked the bus schedule a couple of months ago, and the bus for El Paso left twice a day - can't remember the time it left in the morning, but the evening time was 5:20 pm, IIRC. [/*]
I remember the evening departure time, but for some reason I thought the morning one was around 10am. In any event I believe Maria was killed several hours before.

nuttintodo

04-08-2008, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by baywench

I have always thought that it was later in the evening and maybe even after midnight, making the actually death on the 15th. JMO [/*]

Where was CSL if Maria was killed later than 7pm onto in the early hours of the 15th? Wouldn't that cause a problem with her 'alibi'?

;)

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Where was CSL if Maria was killed later than 7pm onto in the early hours of the 15th? Wouldn't that cause a problem with her 'alibi'?

;) [/*]

It couldn't have happened then. Her alibi is still in tact. jmo

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Where was CSL if Maria was killed later than 7pm onto in the early hours of the 15th? Wouldn't that cause a problem with her 'alibi'?

;) [/*]

She can actually tell them anything she wants.....like it couldn't have happened when she was at home.

LE nor ME can pinpoint the time of death that close anyway due to the vast decomposition and charring of the remains.

imoo

baywench

04-08-2008, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Where was CSL if Maria was killed later than 7pm onto in the early hours of the 15th? Wouldn't that cause a problem with her 'alibi'?

;) [/*]

That is why it is so important to provide your own alibi! Unless/until CSL is found we won't know any different. Obviously forensics in this case were never going to be able to determine the exact time and date of death. How convenient for her. Of course I don't believe LE is buying any of this. Hope she looks good in prison orange!!! JMO

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by baywench

I have always thought that it was later in the evening and maybe even after midnight, making the actually death on the 15th. JMO [/*]

Well it seems the Lauterbach's too believe it was on the 15th and I noticed they had some questions about Christina too that they wanted the MC to answer. I found that interesting.

So do they not believe LE and believe Laurean when he is to have said it happened on the 15th? On Maria's myspace page they are listing the 15th as DOD and that was just put up there in the last couple of days.

imoo

baywench

04-08-2008, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

It couldn't have happened then. Her alibi is still in tact. jmo [/*]

Wait for it......

IvySterling

04-08-2008, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

It couldn't have happened then. Her alibi is still in tact. jmo [/*]
Who has verified her alibi, was she with someone or are they going on her word ALONE?......... in your opinion of course :)

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

Who has verified her alibi, was she with someone or are they going on her word ALONE?......... in your opinion of course :) [/*]

She is not under arrest is she? I would say LE. imo

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

Who has verified her alibi, was she with someone or are they going on her word ALONE?......... in your opinion of course :) [/*]

And how would that someone know what time Maria was murdered to even give her an alibi?

imo

nuttintodo

04-08-2008, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

And how would that someone know what time Maria was murdered to even give her an alibi?

imo [/*]

IMO, the only one who would know when Maria was murdered is the suspect, one Cesar Armando Laurean.

Charlotte

04-08-2008, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Well it seems the Lauterbach's too believe it was on the 15th and I noticed they had some questions about Christina too that they wanted the MC to answer. I found that interesting.

So do they not believe LE and believe Laurean when he is to have said it happened on the 15th? On Maria's myspace page they are listing the 15th as DOD and that was just put up there in the last couple of days.

imoo [/*]

Does anyone know what her death certificate lists as the date of death?

The ME's Report of Investigation lists her date of death as the 16th. RS says that LE believes she died on the 14th. If the death certificate lists yet another date (the 15th), that could be why the family uses that date. Is it known what date is on the DC?

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by Charlotte

Does anyone know what her death certificate lists as the date of death?

The ME's Report of Investigation lists her date of death as the 16th. RS says that LE believes she died on the 14th. If the death certificate lists yet another date (the 15th), that could be why the family uses that date. Is it known what date is on the DC? [/*]

I haven't seen a copy of the DC, so I am not sure.

Really I don't think anyone can say with 100% accuracy not even the ME. So he may have said "on or about the 15th":shrug:

imoo

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

And how would that someone know what time Maria was murdered to even give her an alibi?

imo [/*]

LE by their investigation. jmo

nuttintodo

04-08-2008, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by Charlotte

Does anyone know what her death certificate lists as the date of death?

The ME's Report of Investigation lists her date of death as the 16th. RS says that LE believes she died on the 14th. If the death certificate lists yet another date (the 15th), that could be why the family uses that date. Is it known what date is on the DC? [/*]

Maria's death certificate is now available for viewing online at the RoD's website.

It lists the DOD as 12/16/07.

I am getting ready to upload the image to photobucket.

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

IMO, the only one who would know when Maria was murdered is the suspect, one Cesar Armando Laurean. [/*]

Possibly. If he was there he would know......if someone else was there they would know....if they both were there then they would both know. I highly doubt that will ever be revealed.

imoo

nuttintodo

04-08-2008, 11:20 PM

Links to Maria's Death Certificate:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/DC1.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/DC2.jpg

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Maria's death certificate is now available for viewing online at the RoD's website.

It lists the DOD as 12/16/07.

I am getting ready to upload the image to photobucket. [/*]

Thanks Nuttin!

I have never seen so many dates......it makes it so confusing.

imoo

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 11:20 PM

I believe once the investigation is completed by LE, all the dates will be changed to the right date and all will be the same. jmo

nuttintodo

04-08-2008, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Possibly. If he was there he would know......if someone else was there they would know....if they both were there then they would both know. I highly doubt that will ever be revealed.

imoo [/*]

I doubt it too. Sadly, we will never know the whole truth...just bits and pieces.

jmo

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

LE by their investigation. jmo [/*]

They will never be able to tell a jury the date and time that Maria died.

imoo

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

They will never be able to tell a jury the date and time that Maria died.

imoo [/*]

You know something GB they most certainly will be able to narrow that date and time down to between these times on this date Marie died and that is what they will tell the jury. That is all they will need to tell the jury. imo

nuttintodo

04-08-2008, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Thanks Nuttin!

I have never seen so many dates......it makes it so confusing.

imoo [/*]

It does indeed.

Now I completely understand the probate court's date of 12/16 as they simply used the date listed on the DC.

CANDYKISSES

04-08-2008, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

It does indeed.

Now I completely understand the probate court's date of 12/16 as they simply used the date listed on the DC. [/*]

It certainly appears that way, doesn't it Nutty?

Jan Powell

04-08-2008, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

You were an unruly teen? Did you lie? Did you ever tell a whopper? Did your kids? Were any of you considered bipolar like Maria for doing the same things? I sure lied as a teen and told some whoppers. So did my teenager. Even into my early twenties when it came to my parents. I wasn't bipolar and my son wasn't bipolar. Just saying.............

I was usually in it for the pound.

jmo:D [/*]

Yep, I was would have been considered unruly 50 years ago when I climbed out my bedroom window and went to a bootleggers. Especially since my dad was the school principal and my mom an elementary teacher in a small town. I was also unruly when I climbed the watertower and painted my name on the tower and tried to lie about it with paint under my nails.

I wished at the time I had a diagnosis of something to blame my action on. My lies sure didn't work for me.

Bipolar is in my family, both sides, I have lived through the chaos it creates. Many times the chaos was started with (small) lies until finally they got so outlandish to be unbelievable. We called them the family secrets. Sound familiar?

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

It does indeed.

Now I completely understand the probate court's date of 12/16 as they simply used the date listed on the DC. [/*]

Right, they must have the death certificate to even open the Probate.

imoo

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

Yep, I was would have been considered unruly 50 years ago when I climbed out my bedroom window and went to a bootleggers. Especially since my dad was the school principal and my mom an elementary teacher in a small town. I was also unruly when I climbed the watertower and painted my name on the tower and tried to lie about it with paint under my nails.

I wished at the time I had a diagnosis of something to blame my action on. My lies sure didn't work for me.

Bipolar is in my family, both sides, I have lived through the chaos it creates. Many times the chaos was started with (small) lies until finally they got so outlandish to be unbelievable. We called them the family secrets. Sound familiar? [/*]

LOL yes it does. Now days everyone is bipolar. LOL Very popular diagnosis and sells a whole lot of pills.

jmo

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 11:35 PM

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

How will they be able to tell them the time Maria died?

imoo [/*]

By their investigation. jmo They may not be able to pin point it but they can give a time spread like for example between the times of 5pm and 7pm on the 14th. jmo

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

By their investigation. jmo [/*]

So if the defense attorney ask the ME can he narrow it down to before 7 pm or after 7pm that day, he will be able to do it? Based on what?

imoo

Charlotte

04-08-2008, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk
Okay, time for another strange twist in this case, as reported by the media:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roshaun Hames told CNN affiliate WNCT-TV on Friday that he sold the ticket to Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach around 5 p.m. on December 14.

Hames said he thought Lauterbach was alone when she bought the ticket and that she drove off after asking if she could leave her car at the station, WNCT reported.

The ticket was good for six months, but Lauterbach was scheduled to use it December 15, Hames told WNCT, the day Lauterbach's car was left near the station. Bus records show the ticket was never used, Hames said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.waaytv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7611174

If I understand this right: Roshaun Hames the ticket seller said that Lauterbach was to scheduled to use the ticket on December 15th, the day that her car was left near the station.

Not the 14th?! [/*]

If you believe the MC, rather than the "eyewitness" account given a month after the fact, the bus records (not Mr. Hames' memory) show that the ticket was purchased on the 15th (not the 14th) for use later that same evening.

From the Jan. 15th PC, Lt. Col. Curtis Hill:

On Saturday, December 15th, Greyhound bus records reflect a ticket is purchased in LCpl Lauterbach’s name for one way to El Paso, Texas departing that evening. Ticket is not redeemed. Command is not notified of this information until January 9th.

Note that by the time of the PC, when the actual Greyhound records had been accessed, the statement given was not that Maria Lauterbach had purchased the ticket -- just that it was purchased in her name. If LE is correct in that she died on the 14th, and if the MC is correct in that someone bought a ticket in her name on the 15th, then she obviously did not buy the ticket herself, as she was already dead. I think that when RS said that they know what the El Paso connection was (but can't give out info about it), they know that there was no real connection to Maria, and that the ticket was purchased after she was killed -- possibly to create a paper trail pointing LE in a direction to go look for the UA Marine, rather than come looking around him. JMOO

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

So if the defense attorney ask the ME can he narrow it down to before 7 pm or after 7pm that day, he will be able to do it? Based on what?

imoo [/*]

It won't be the ME. It will be a detective based on the investigation. imo

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

By their investigation. jmo They may not be able to pin point it but they can give a time spread like for example between the times of 5pm and 7pm on the 14th. jmo [/*]

Oops I didn't see the part you added.

Even when a body is found in good condition they cant narrow the time line down that closely unless they knew the last time the victim ate and stomach contents were still there.:shrug:

nuttintodo

04-08-2008, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

They will never be able to tell a jury the date and time that Maria died.

imoo [/*]

I'm sure Dewey will tell the jury that Maria was last known to be alive on 12/14 because:

1) Maria last spoke to her mother around 2-3 p.m. on the 14th

2) Maria left the note at DD's home on the 14th

3) Maria is seen on ATM footage making a withdrawal at around 4:20 p.m. on the 14th

4) According to Mr. Hames, Maria bought her ticket to El Paso at around 5 p.m. on the 14th

After 12/14, NO ONE other than her murderer has contact with Maria.

jmo :seeya:

Squawk Box

04-08-2008, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Oops I didn't see the part you added.

Even when a body is found in good condition they cant narrow the time line down that closely unless they knew the last time the victim ate and stomach contents were still there.:shrug: [/*]

Again, based on LE investigation. jmo

Also with a fresh body it isn't just stomach contents. A lot of factors are involved. jmo

Charlotte

04-08-2008, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Oops I didn't see the part you added.

Even when a body is found in good condition they cant narrow the time line down that closely unless they knew the last time the victim ate and stomach contents were still there.:shrug: [/*]

I think the times they would use for the time spread would be from detailing how the crime went down -- who was where and did what when, with the evidence they have to support those things rather than from forensic evidence from the body. IMO

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Charlotte

If you believe the MC, rather than the "eyewitness" account given a month after the fact, the bus records (not Mr. Hames' memory) show that the ticket was purchased on the 15th (not the 14th) for use later that same evening.

From the Jan. 15th PC, Lt. Col. Curtis Hill:

Note that by the time of the PC, when the actual Greyhound records had been accessed, the statement given was not that Maria Lauterbach had purchased the ticket -- just that it was purchased in her name. If LE is correct in that she died on the 14th, and if the MC is correct in that someone bought a ticket in her name on the 15th, then she obviously did not buy the ticket herself, as she was already dead. I think that when RS said that they know what the El Paso connection was (but can't give out info about it), they know that there was no real connection to Maria, and that the ticket was purchased after she was killed -- possibly to create a paper trail pointing LE in a direction to go look for the UA Marine, rather than come looking around him. JMOO [/*]

Interesting, Charlotte. I never thought about it that way...

gaelicpeas

04-08-2008, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Oops I didn't see the part you added.

Even when a body is found in good condition they cant narrow the time line down that closely unless they knew the last time the victim ate and stomach contents were still there.:shrug: [/*]

Gentle, I would have to go back and look at the autopsy again, but IIRC, the stomach was one of the organs that was "gone" (my words).

JMO

GentleBreeze

04-08-2008, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I'm sure Dewey will tell the jury that Maria was last known to be alive on 12/14 because:

1) Maria last spoke to her mother around 2-3 p.m. on the 14th

2) Maria left the note at DD's home on the 14th

3) Maria is seen on ATM footage making a withdrawal at around 4:20 p.m. on the 14th

4) According to Mr. Hames, Maria bought her ticket to El Paso at around 5 p.m. on the 14th

After 12/14, NO ONE other than her murderer has contact with Maria.

jmo :seeya: [/*]

I understand what you are saying but that still is not proof when she died.

In the Meredeth Emerson case no one heard from her after the first day she went missing but Gary Hilton did not kill her until the 3rd day iirc.

If a defense attorney tries to say the murderer could have been CSL then proving the actual time of death will become important imo. From what we know the timeline is so tight anyway that imo it is going to cause problems if this is the defense that is used.

imoo

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Gentle, I would have to go back and look at the autopsy again, but IIRC, the stomach was one of the organs that was "gone" (my words).

JMO [/*]

You are right gaelic.

Maria's body was in vast decompostion and charred.

I still dont understand the DC stating it was the 16th when she died.

imoo

Jan Powell

04-09-2008, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

You know something GB they most certainly will be able to narrow that date and time down to between these times on this date Marie died and that is what they will tell the jury. That is all they will need to tell the jury. imo [/*]

I'm not convinced CL will ever see a jury in the US. If he fights it, I can see his extradition being a problem because they have to present this "roller coaster" and "bizarre" case in Mexico prior to extradition.

IMO, this is when CSL will probably catch a charge in the US.

gaelicpeas

04-09-2008, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

You are right gaelic.

Maria's body was in vast decompostion and charred.

I still dont understand the DC stating it was the 16th when she died.

imoo [/*]

That death certificate was signed on Jan 15, IIRC... maybe LE has found other evidence since then? I don't know.. just speculating...

nuttintodo

04-09-2008, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Gentle, I would have to go back and look at the autopsy again, but IIRC, the stomach was one of the organs that was "gone" (my words).

JMO [/*]

GPeas, I'll help you out...

According to the Autopsy Report Under Internal Examination:

Body Cavities
The body cavities contain decomposition fluid admixed with thick paste. The organs are in a state of advanced decomposition. In addition, there is charring. The organs of the pelvis are not recognizable.

Skipping on down to the Gastrointestinal System:
The bowel is extensively charred. The stomach is not recovered.

gaelicpeas

04-09-2008, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

GPeas, I'll help you out...

According to the Autopsy Report Under Internal Examination:

Body Cavities
The body cavities contain decomposition fluid admixed with thick paste. The organs are in a state of advanced decomposition. In addition, there is charring. The organs of the pelvis are not recognizable.

Skipping on down to the Gastrointestinal System:
The bowel is extensively charred. The stomach is not recovered. [/*]

Thanks, Nuttin!

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Again, based on LE investigation. jmo

Also with a fresh body it isn't just stomach contents. A lot of factors are involved. jmo [/*]

Of course it is other factors such as rigor or lividity etc.

But as Dr. Kobilinkski has said stomach contents can really help when trying to cinch up a TOD if any is present. Of course we do not have that in this case due to the condition of the body and the fact she was discovered almost a month later.

imoo

CANDYKISSES

04-09-2008, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Interesting, Charlotte. I never thought about it that way... [/*]

Captain Sutherland has answered on Lindell's blog.
:seeya:

nuttintodo

04-09-2008, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

I understand what you are saying but that still is not proof when she died.

In the Meredeth Emerson case no one heard from her after the first day she went missing but Gary Hilton did not kill her until the 3rd day iirc.

If a defense attorney tries to say the murderer could have been CSL then proving the actual time of death will become important imo. From what we know the timeline is so tight anyway that imo it is going to cause problems if this is the defense that is used.

imoo [/*]

ITA.

I was merely pointing out that Maria was last known to be alive on the 14th, that's all.

Didn't mean to imply anything else.

jmo

gaelicpeas

04-09-2008, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

Captain Sutherland has answered on Lindell's blog.
:seeya: [/*]

Thanks, Candy... from his blog:

"Again, we may have been the source of the confusion, but we can say with certainty that we believe that she was killed on the 14th."

http://onslowcrime.encblogs.com/?p=9#comments

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

Captain Sutherland has answered on Lindell's blog.
:seeya: [/*]

Thanks Candy.

Well that clears that up about the bus ticket and they do believe it was Maria who bought the ticket.

He says he believes she was killed on the EVENING of the 14th.

imoo

Jan Powell

04-09-2008, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

I understand what you are saying but that still is not proof when she died.

In the Meredeth Emerson case no one heard from her after the first day she went missing but Gary Hilton did not kill her until the 3rd day iirc.

If a defense attorney tries to say the murderer could have been CSL then proving the actual time of death will become important imo. From what we know the timeline is so tight anyway that imo it is going to cause problems if this is the defense that is used.

imoo [/*]

GB, I think that is both important and a potential problem for CSL. Two weapons and two different types of injuries doesn't help either.

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

ITA.

I was merely pointing out that Maria was last known to be alive on the 14th, that's all.

Didn't mean to imply anything else.

jmo [/*]

Oh I knew that Nuttin...I am sorry, I wasn't implying anything.

I just mean this case is loaded for a good defense lawyer to make hay with the time line especially with it being so tight.

That is all I meant. If he is ever brought back I do think the tables will turn.

imoo

Charlotte

04-09-2008, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

Captain Sutherland has answered on Lindell's blog.
:seeya: [/*]

Thank you Candy.

She bought a ticket on the 14th to be redeemed on the 15th.

So the info given by the MC at the PC was incorrect.
I wonder what else in their PC was not accurate? JMO

nuttintodo

04-09-2008, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Thanks Candy.

Well that clears that up about the bus ticket and they do believe it was Maria who bought the ticket.

He says he believes she was killed on the EVENING of the 14th.

imoo [/*]

OCSD must have in their possession the evidence to back that up.

jmoo

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

OCSD must have in their possession the evidence to back that up.

jmoo [/*]

I think what they have is what you listed in your previous post.

No one heard from her since the 14th.

Any other case that would be enough but in this one if they go with "someone" else did it then I think it will cause the DA problems if the defense's theory is CSL had motive to do this and had opportunity knowing LE cannot with certainty tell the jury exactly when in the evening she was killed.

imoo

daniel green

04-09-2008, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Where was CSL if Maria was killed later than 7pm onto in the early hours of the 15th? Wouldn't that cause a problem with her 'alibi'?

;) [/*]

Oh, yeah. A big problem.

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

GB, I think that is both important and a potential problem for CSL. Two weapons and two different types of injuries doesn't help either. [/*]

I agree. I think any seasoned defense attorney will have much to work with in this case.

imoo

gaelicpeas

04-09-2008, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

I think what they have is what you listed in your previous post.

No one heard from her since the 14th.

Any other case that would be enough but in this one if they go with "someone" else did it then I think it will cause the DA problems if the defense's theory is CSL had motive to do this and had opportunity knowing LE cannot with certainty tell the jury exactly when in the evening she was killed.

imoo [/*]

Sometimes I get the uneasy feeling LE is relying too much on CL's "novellas".

JMO

(edited to add: hopefully there is a strategy behind this thinking)

daniel green

04-09-2008, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box
I believe once the investigation is completed by LE, all the dates will be changed to the right date and all will be the same. jmo [/*]

I believe in the Tooth Fairy.

daniel green

04-09-2008, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

How will they be able to tell them the time Maria died?

imoo [/*]

Helloooooooooooo.

Haven't you been reading this page?

They will be able to tell by their INVESTIGATION.

nuttintodo

04-09-2008, 12:38 AM

:chicken: :eek:

On that note, G'night all! :seeya:

Gotta get some sleep before the rooster crows.

Squawk Box

04-09-2008, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Thanks Candy.

Well that clears that up about the bus ticket and they do believe it was Maria who bought the ticket.

He says he believes she was killed on the EVENING of the 14th.

imoo [/*]

Yes, prior to Christina arriving home. Did you see where RS said the ME gets his dates from LE? That is exactly what I was telling you. jmo

Squawk Box

04-09-2008, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by daniel green

Helloooooooooooo.

Haven't you been reading this page?

They will be able to tell by their INVESTIGATION. [/*]

Exactly, now you're catching on. :D

Squawk Box

04-09-2008, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by daniel green

I believe in the Tooth Fairy. [/*]

I don't doubt that.:D

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Yes, prior to Christina arriving home. Did you see where RS said the ME gets his dates from LE. That is exactly what I was telling you. jmo [/*]

Captain Sutherland said it was prior to Christina arriving home?:confused:

I thought he only said they BELIEVE Maria died in the evening of the 14th?

Let me go read it again..............I missed him mentioning CSL.

So if the ME gets his dates from LE then why does the death certificate have 12-16-07?

imoo

Jan Powell

04-09-2008, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

Yes, prior to Christina arriving home. Did you see where RS said the ME gets his dates from LE? That is exactly what I was telling you. jmo [/*]

That'll work until they have to prove it.

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
:chicken:

On that note, G'night all! :seeya:

Gotta get some sleep before the rooster crows. [/*]

:seeya:

Squawk Box

04-09-2008, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Captain Sutherland said it was prior to Christina arriving home?:confused:

I thought he only said they BELIEVE Maria died in the evening of the 14th?

Let me go read it again..............I missed him mentioning CSL.

So if the ME gets his dates from LE then why does the death certificate have 12-16-07?

imoo [/*]

He said in the evening and Christina got home around 7pm. That is what I am saying. Like I said before, after LE completes their investigations, dates will be changed to the proper date. jmo

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by daniel green

Helloooooooooooo.

Haven't you been reading this page?

They will be able to tell by their INVESTIGATION. [/*]

Well I sure learned something new. I never knew that the ME gets the TOD from LE. Heck I thought they went to school so they could determine that all by themselves.:biggrin:

imoo

Squawk Box

04-09-2008, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Well I sure learned something new. I never knew that the ME gets the TOD from LE. Heck I thought they went to school so they could determine that all by themselves.:biggrin:

imoo [/*]

They always work together. I thought you knew that. jmo

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

He said in the evening and Christina got home around 7pm. That is what I am saying. Like I said before, after LE completes their investigations, dates will be changed to the proper date. jmo [/*]

I thought it is extremely rare that a death certificate is changed unless it is from accident to a homicide etc. I have never seen a DC changed on TOD months after the death.

Yes 7 pm is in the evening, imo.

imoo

Squawk Box

04-09-2008, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

I thought it is extremely rare that a death certificate is changed unless it is from accident to a homicide etc. I have never seen a DC changed on TOD months after the death.

Yes 7 pm is in the evening, imo.

imoo [/*]

I have. Again, she hasn't been charged.

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

They always work together. I thought you knew that. jmo [/*]

Yes I know they do but LE does not determine TOD ...that is a MEs responsibility.

So how did the ME determine the 16th on the DC?.........LE?

imoo

Squawk Box

04-09-2008, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Yes I know they do but LE does not determine TOD ...that is a MEs responsibility.

So how did the ME determine the 16th on the DC?.........LE?

imoo [/*]

GB I invite you to read what RS said again.

Good nite.:seeya:

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Sometimes I get the uneasy feeling LE is relying too much on CL's "novellas".

JMO

(edited to add: hopefully there is a strategy behind this thinking) [/*]

Well we have three different dates in play already.

14th.
15th.
16th.

They can scurry around and try to change them now or before trial but the defense attorney will have records where inconsistent dates have been put out there and accuse them of changing it to fit their theory. It makes LE look like they arent sure of what they are doing.

imo

GentleBreeze

04-09-2008, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

GB I invite you to read what RS said again.

Good nite.:seeya: [/*]

:seeya:

Jan Powell

04-09-2008, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Squawk Box

He said in the evening and Christina got home around 7pm. That is what I am saying. Like I said before, after LE completes their investigations, dates will be changed to the proper date. jmo [/*]

Squawk, surely you don't believe changing and aligning dates is not going to be a problem?

Aren't they better off just saying nothing more than what the facts say, and that's the ME doesn't know because of decomposition? To the ME, whether CL or CSL is guilty is not their gig, they are scientist. Why would they buy into something the science can't support?

gaelicpeas

04-09-2008, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

Squawk, surely you don't believe changing and aligning dates is not going to be a problem?

Aren't they better off just saying nothing more than what the facts say, and that's the ME doesn't know because of decomposition? To the ME, whether CL or CSL is guilty is not their gig, they are scientist. Why would they buy into something the science can't support? [/*]

lol, I agree, Jan.. it doesn't make sense. But that is what Captain Sutherland said and what Nelkirk just posted:

"The ME would get his estimate from LEO in a case like this based on when she was last known to be alive."

http://onslowcrime.encblogs.com/?p=9#comments

I agree with what you said, though.. which is why I get this uneasy feeling..

JMO

gaelicpeas

04-09-2008, 01:25 AM

One of the most frustrating aspects to this case is the misinformation that is out there. Adds to my uneasiness...

JMO

gaelicpeas

04-09-2008, 01:31 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nelkirk
Like I posted above the ME was working with their ESTIMATE of when the murder occurred based on their evaluation of the evidence and their investigation. This ESTIMATE is subject to change as the investigation continues and new evidence is processed or found. It is still pretty much a Guesstimate

And always look for the word believe

RCS said:

http://onslowcrime.encblogs.com/?p=9#comment-32

That is a sure sign that the statement may change as the investigation continues. [/*][/QUOTE

"Again, we may have been the source of the confusion, but we can say with certainty that we believe that she was killed on the 14th."

http://onslowcrime.encblogs.com/?p=9#comments

IMO, "say with certainty" is stronger than just believe...

(edited to add that I agree any prior statements can change as the investigation continues)

gaelicpeas

04-09-2008, 01:42 AM

I would think by now that LE has all the communications evidence, which may play a big role in this case.

JMO

crymeariver2006

04-09-2008, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Links to Maria's Death Certificate:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/DC1.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/DC2.jpg [/*]

If you look at 19a and 19bee, you'll see the name of Merle Wilberding and his office address. Isn't that the Lauterbach attorney?

That might be a source of some of the confusion. Wouldn't he be the same attorney that assisted Mary on probate issues?