4/5 to 4/7

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by Charlotte


Actually, they haven't replied to the questions yet.
From the article that nelkirk linked to:

[/*]

Which poster was it that went to ML's funeral? We need to get her to write an email to Rep. Turner to find out if he ever got a response to his questions.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by Charlotte


I believe you, but I still think that Ciccarelli had to be notified of what he was going to say too. :D [/*]

That wouldn't surprise me either as Cicarelli apparently had the facts wrong on several things early on...

But all I know is they said the delay was to inform ML's family...

[gaelicpeas]

Interesting comment on the JD News article about the baby's hand. I forgot that Sheriff Brown said that tonight.

http://www.jdnews.com/news/laurean_55820___article.html/lauterbach_wanted.html

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by nelkirk



As of March 21,2008 the MC has given an answer to The Congressman, but he has rejected their answers...

As to the questions listed in the letter, that has not been made public.

Although looking over the questions, some of those are coverd by privacy acts and the MC can not give those answers the Congressman. [/*]

Thanks, Nelkirk. It seemed to me from your link that the MC answer was that the case had been closed and they really didn't give any answers. Am I reading that wrong?

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by nelkirk


IIRC Marcia3 [/*]

Thanks, Nelkirk. I haven't seen her here in awhile. I wonder where she is?

[Charlotte]

At least as of the time that the article was written, no answers to the letter had been received. In the article, it states that the phone call between the Congressman and the MC took place about two weeks prior to the date of the article (March 21), which evidently means that the phone call took place before the Congressman wrote his letter on March 11th.

The assertion that the Congressman received a reply to his March 11th letter via a March 21 phone call was in error. IMO

[gaelicpeas]

So, this statement on the AMW show by Sheriff Brown regarding the baby's hand is odd. He specifically said it did not look "burned off". So does that mean it was cut off? I know the ME report said they could not determine if there were any fetal injuries, but that comment seems to indicate otherwise, IMO.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by nelkirk
The MC has already answered some of those questions and Rep Turner has refused to accept the answers that he has been given.

As I said the MC has given an answer...

The MC response is that they followed their directives...

Also some of those questions can not be answered by the MC, they have to be answered by NCIS and JAG...

And then there are the privacy issues involved... [/*]

I agree that there are privacy issues involved.. but from the link you posted, it appears that the MC said the rape investigation is closed and that there were no answers to his questions. Am I reading that wrong?

edited to add: and passing it off to NCIS/JAG .. so they need to answer too, right?

[gaelicpeas]

I just wanted to comment that I find it particularly frustrating that there are 3 entities here.. the MC, the NCIS, and JAG. I almost feel like they deflect the hard questions by saying it is not their responsibility, but it is NCIS or JAG's responsibility. Can we not get a straight answer??

Even LLE does it.. Apparently no one wants to step up to the plate and say they messed up, IMO.

[gaelicpeas]

oh lordy.. this person is posting more stuff about me on the JD News site...

http://www.jdnews.com/news/laurean_55820___article.html/lauterbach_wanted.html

[gaelicpeas]

Now.. it just makes me wonder why this person is saying stuff about me on the JD News site? Are they just angry because they got banned here or something?

Or do they think I am too close to the truth? I dunno.. it is very bizarre...

JMO

[gaelicpeas]

lol! I feel like I am being cyber-stalked by somebody using various spin-offs on my nic!

Makes me wonder sometimes....

Anyway... perhaps tomorrow we will awaken to news of CL's capture.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by nelkirk


(respectfully snipped)

Thanks, Nelkirk...

[gaelicpeas]

Okay... someone just posted this comment on the other JD News site... does anyone here speak Spanish, because I have no idea what they are saying... TIA

http://www.jdnews.com/news/laurean_55854___article.html/lauterbach_fbi.html

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by nelkirk



Too strange...of course there are a lot of strange people on the internet [/*]

umm hmm, I agree.. and apparently they are upset that they can't post here anymore, IMO.

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by nelkirk
The MC has already answered some of those questions and Rep Turner has refused to accept the answers that he has been given.

As I said the MC has given an answer...

The MC response is that they followed their directives...

Also some of those questions can not be answered by the MC, they have to be answered by NCIS and JAG...

And then there are the privacy issues involved... [/*]

If you're referring to the questions asked in Turner's 3/11 letter, and saying that the MC has supplied subsequent answers to them, then I must respectfully disagree.

Again, according to the article you linked to, Turner's phone call with Gen. Regner took place prior to Turner writing his letter to Gen. Conway. That phone conversation regarding the conclusion of the rape investigation may have played a role in prompting Turner to compose his letter full of questions, but that phone conversation was not in response to the letter which had not yet been written.

According to your article, the MC had not replied to Turner's letter as of March 21, and Gen. Conway was concerned that there would be "suspicions of obscurantism" due to the lack of response to the letter written to him. "No timetable" has been set for a reply, as of that reporting.

There may have been questions asked over the phone in early March about the conclusion of the rape investigation, and the answers may not have been satisfactory to Turner (prompting his letter), but that does not in any way support the contention that a response to his March 11 letter has been given in any way. The article you linked to states the opposite of that.

The MC hasn't said that they can't answer any of the questions Turner asked, they've only expressed concern that they may appear to be obstructive by not doing so yet.

I doubt that the MC is too awfully concerned with Maria's privacy being violated by giving her parents the requested info -- it's a tad late in the game for that, after all the info they gave the general public at the press conference and since. JMO

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by nelkirk


On March 12th the MC gave an answer to the Congressman...

They did not answer the questions listed by the Congressman.

They gave him an answer...

The Congressman was not satisfied with the answer given by the MC...[/*]

Okay, we seem to be in agreement that the MC did not answer the questions listed by the Congressman, as had been stated here earlier. Before the Congressman wrote his letter, the MC gave him an answer to a question that wasn't asked in the letter that he hadn't written yet. Agreed. It's all good.

As for the privacy issues...

The MC has stated that the inivestigation on the rape allegations is finished. They have not made their findings on this public.

The priacy issues concern both Cesar Laurean and Christina Laurean, as well as Maria Lauterback

I agree with the first sentence, but which of the questions asked by Turner cannot be answered due to privacy issues concerning Maria or Cesar -- let alone Christina?

Again, given all of the info of Maria's that the MC has gladly gone public with, I can't fathom what privacy issues would suddenly apply to the questions asked by Maria's family via Turner. If the MC were to now claim privacy issues instead of giving the answers, they should be called on the obvious double standard.

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by nelkirk
The MC is not a babysitting service. When a young adult enlists in the MC they are treated as adults. A person must have a parent sign for them if they are under the age of consent (18).

An 18 year old is considered an adult capable of handling their own business without a babysitter. They can even vote for their choice of Commander in Chief.

When an adult enlists in the MC they sign a contract to essentially sell their services to the Corps for a given period of time and they are expected to complete their contractual period of time as promised.

There are ways out of the MC besides hatting up and running away from their responsibility to honor their contract. Many people are pointig their finger toward CL because he turned his back on the MC, but that can be equally said that ML ran from the MC.

She could have gone to her UVA, her command, the chaplain etc and gotten help. There is even a Separation of Service for pregnancy that would have allowed the MC to release her from her contract. But she chose to go UA.

From what is being stated about MLs other UA incidents, it would seem that she had a problem living up to the committment she made to the Corps.

Even knowing that she was a flight risk by her previous behavior the MC did make phone calls to her to see if there was a problem. They also sent Marines to her home to see if she was there and needed help. Those are extraordinary steps taken on her behalf. Usually a person who goes UA is only written up and then the MC waits for them to show back up, because in many cases the UA Marine eventually either calls in with some excuse or returns to base on their own. The next procedure is for the command to call their home fo record and ask if they are there. Then there is a 10 day letter to their home of record in an attempt to find if the family knows where they are. And finally after 30 days they are entered into the database as a deserter and then they are usually found when they are involved in a traffic stop for speeding or a mechanical falure to their vehicle.

When she was absent from formation on 12/17 the MC immediately began to look for her. While the public was unaware of her prior UA incidents the MC was not and they still began to search for her. They called her family. And then DD showed up with the note that said she was leaving the Corps.

So now the MC has other UA incidents and a note saying that she had turned her back on the Corps in evidence. Still the MC followed ther directives. And the command spoke to her mother. Then the command requested deserter status and she was put in the database so that she might be found by LLE. 10 days later the MC sends a letter to her home of record. The MC is still following it's directives.

You have stated that the MC wants it both ways, that the MC didn't look for her because of prior UA incidents...that the MC is in full damage control mode.

NCIS is not the MC....Paul Ciccarelli does not speak for the USMC..

Let's identify the players:

Lieutenant Colonel Curtis Hill was the spokesman for the USMC.

Special Agent Paul Ciccarelli was the spokeman for NCIS.

Colonel Gary Sokoloski, the Staff Judge Advocate for II MEF was the spokesman for JAG.

If you want to the skinny on what the MC has to say in this cae you have to listen to the spokesman for the USMC. [/*]

Thanks for the long lecture on the MC not being a babysitting service, but I already knew that, and can only add that it's a good thing. LE might be finding missing children buried in the daycare's back yard.

I don't care how many facets of the military are involved in this case -- Maria and Cesar were both Marines, one alleged being raped by the other, and the Marine Corps had a responsibility to that Marine who wound up dead, apparently at the hand of the Marine whom she had accused. She's dead, and nothing can change that. The Marine Corps and all the other entities you listed are made up of human beings, and sometimes human beings screw up. I firmly believe that the ball was dropped more than once in her case, and most likely by more than one person.
If there are people in the NCIS or JAG or whatever all that erred in their judgments, actions, and inactions in the case, then they can carry their share of the blame too. But the ultimate responsibility for a Marine lies with the Marines. As was asked on tonight's AMW segment, while the Marines protect all of us, who is protecting them from each other?? The answer, apparently, is nobody.

I really love how the MC (or is it the NCIS, or is it JAG... ) determined that CL was never, ever a flight risk, but now it's been determined here that Maria was the flight risk!!

And even though the circumstances of her disappearance are still unknown (though followed by her known murder), it has been decided here, that she chose to go UA!!

And how it has been decided here that it "can be equally said that ML ran from the MC" as it can for CL!!

Oh yes, and it's been decided here, based on Ciccarelli saying she had prior UAs (without any further information whatsoever), that Maria "had a problem living up to the commitment she made to the Corps."

Yes, nelkirk, I did state that the MC wants it both ways, and that the MC is in full damage control mode. It's true. The damage is already done -- Maria and her baby are dead -- but heaven forbid that the image of the few and the proud be tarnished by trifling little facts like that. It just wouldn't do to have MC's recruitment numbers affected by young women choosing not to join due to concerns for their own safety in the barracks, right? Or whether they'd be taken seriously if their safety was compromised? Or whether they'd wind up dead and the MC (or the NCIS, or the JAG, or anyone and everyone) would be more interested in protecting its image than it was in protecting its soldiers? Nah, that just wouldn't do at all.

So the military, in all the forms you listed, is now fully engaged in controlling the PR damage from this monumental screwup that so many ranking characters had, or now have, a hand in. Their interest is in self-protection, individually and in military group terms. You're right -- it's not just the MC itself, but that's been my handy shorthand since they have (or should have had) the ultimate responsibility for their Marines.

I'm not saying that the entire Marine Corps failed Maria (though I don't know that it didn't), I am saying that some individuals in her command at Camp Lejeune, as well as individuals in the NCIS, etc, made mistakes that they won't admit to. They're hiding behind a dead young Marine and casting the blame for what they allowed to happen (yes, they allowed it to happen!) onto her.
They would rather do that than admit that maybe, just maybe, they could have done a damn thing differently, or would/will do anything differently the next time.

They have plenty of help in their whitewashing endeavor. It's just a shame that a dead woman's memory is being so carelessly dirtied in the process. There aren't too many people here speaking up against that. That's a shame, too. JMOO

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by nelkirk


I never said that the MC had answered the Congressman's questions...I said

:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 3/21/2008 the Congressman received a reply from the USMC to the Congressman's letter dated 3/11/2008

The Congressman disagrees with the USMC's reply
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/*]

Sorry, but...

On 3/21/2008 the Congressman did not receive a reply from the USMC to his letter dated 3/11/2008. Not a thing happened on 3/21/2008, except that the article was published on that day.

There was no reported reply to his letter on 3/21. Period. I'll take you at your word that you didn't mean that sentence to indicate that the Congressman received answers to his letter that he didn't agree with.

Either way, the statement that you made is plainly wrong, no matter what you meant by it.

Can we let this go now? ;)

<rest of quoted post respectfully snipped>

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by IvySterling

She had more than an UA problem, even her mother knew this.

~snip from link
As Cesar Laurean remains hidden from authorities, many questions remain unanswered about the sad, disturbing saga of Maria Lauterbach.

None are more painful than the ones tormenting the family.

What if Maria had never made up the story about her brother?

It may have been a cry for attention, a reaction to the stress of Marine Corps life.

It may also have been fatal.
http://tinyurl.com/272r76 [/*]

Yes she did and trying to fix a problem by sending a young woman to the USMC for structure is not the answer when you have the susppicions Mary and Peter had IMHO. :no:

jmo



"We suspect that she probably is BIPOLAR and she's had a lot of struggles through the years. She's been a real loner, hasn't had a lot of friends, but one thing is she's very attached to home and would call several times a day." spoken word of Mary Lauterbach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHrHZgjx4Aw

[gobucks]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
Okay... someone just posted this comment on the other JD News site... does anyone here speak Spanish, because I have no idea what they are saying... TIA

http://www.jdnews.com/news/laurean_55854___article.html/lauterbach_fbi.html [/*]

How hard and fast the hunted runs depends on the the degree to which he is hunted. The free can be accessable in many forms. The meadows of Jamestown field listens to earlier days even if it is only 15 days. The sand and the dust holds the key. Posted by The Cat

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
lol! I feel like I am being cyber-stalked by somebody using various spin-offs on my nic!

Makes me wonder sometimes....

Anyway... perhaps tomorrow we will awaken to news of CL's capture. [/*]

Don't worry about it Gaelic. I have had it happen to me many times. Posting as "me" when it wasn't and slamming me on another site because of my views on another site. It will die down eventually and peter out. I just ignore them.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by nelkirk



As of March 21,2008 the MC has given an answer to The Congressman, but he has rejected their answers...

As to the questions listed in the letter, that has not been made public.

Although looking over the questions, some of those are covered by privacy acts and the MC can not give those answers the Congressman. [/*]

I agree with all of your posts Nelkirk.

The MC is not at fault. They actually went beyond what was expected of them in trying to locate Maria.

They also would be remiss in their duties if they did not look into past behavior patterns of the UA Marine.

imoo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by gobucks


How hard and fast the hunted runs depends on the the degree to which he is hunted. The free can be accessable in many forms. The meadows of Jamestown field listens to earlier days even if it is only 15 days. The sand and the dust holds the key. Posted by The Cat [/*]

Great, another riddle and I only have decaf!

:D

ETA: Thank you for the translation! I only understood "The Cat".

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I agree with all of your posts Nelkirk.

The MC is not at fault. They actually went beyond what was expected of them in trying to locate Maria.

They also would be remiss in their duties if they did not look into past behavior patterns of the UA Marine.

imoo [/*]

I totally agree as well.

[gobucks]

You're welcome. It wasn't the best Spanish in the world

I think it means CAL isn't running fast and hard anymore because he's not being sought seriously. I think the poster believes CAL and CSL are in contact with each other under LE radar. There's an illegal immigrant community in this country that operates under everyone's radar...local LE, Customs, INS, HLS. There's millions of ways illegal immigrants live in the open while still remaining in the shadows. Jamestown field? Virginia???

[Charlotte]

Thanks for that translation, gobucks!

I had tried translating it last night by using an online Spanish/English translator, and while the translation generated there was basically similar to yours, it mentioned leather, beetles, and a peach!
That one was beyond cryptic! :eek:

Your translation makes more sense. :)

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I agree with all of your posts Nelkirk.

The MC is not at fault. They actually went beyond what was expected of them in trying to locate Maria.

They also would be remiss in their duties if they did not look into past behavior patterns of the UA Marine.

imoo [/*]

Me too. Did you catch any of the latest missing Marine duet yesterday? They went above and beyond on that too and I am waiting to see what will happen. While I know we can't discuss it here, there is info on FOX and the USMC is trying to do what they can.

But at the same time, I agree with NEL in this case and many others. THE USMC is not a babysitting service, and they can't always fix the mistakes we as parents have made.

Bottom line is sometimes we have looked to the military to TEACH STRUCTURE and ESTABLISH BOUNDARIES with our grown children as we encourage them to enter the military.

But if we have turned ourselves away from the reality of what's right under our nose having feelings about health issues with our grown children and not having them evaluated, we own part of what goes wrong IMO.

I am not saying her family is responsible for the murder, ONLY THE MURDERER or MURDERERS ARE RESPONSIBLE for THEIR INABILITY TO CONTROL THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR IMO.

But we are learning through victimology there are some people we can predict will be vulnerable to evil and crime IMO. Whether this was the case here, remains to be seen until such time we know the whole story, but the bits and pieces are suggesting this may have been a trainwreck waiting to happen.

AGAIN JMO BASED ON MONTHS OF READING about this case and the people involved. :(

[martha]

Hi everyone. It does sound like they or not looking hard for cl but i guess i am wrong about that i sure hope so. may today be the day we get GOOD NEWS. I hope all the posters will come back today.:rose:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by gobucks
You're welcome. It wasn't the best Spanish in the world

I think it means CAL isn't running fast and hard anymore because he's not being sought seriously. I think the poster believes CAL and CSL are in contact with each other under LE radar. There's an illegal immigrant community in this country that operates under everyone's radar...local LE, Customs, INS, HLS. There's millions of ways illegal immigrants live in the open while still remaining in the shadows. Jamestown field? Virginia??? [/*]

Isn't that a burial site for Civil War dead?

(Or do I have my Jamestowns mixed up?)

But I don't think he's ever been running that fast or that hard anyway. That's jmo though.

And, "the free can be accessable in many forms" - if one considers Christina to be "the free" one can believe they have continued contact, way past the "Houston letters".

"The sand and the dust holds the key" - J'ville is about 30 minutes from the beach so......

Or it could be "The Cat" is just messing with our heads!



:D

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
lol! I feel like I am being cyber-stalked by somebody using various spin-offs on my nic!

Makes me wonder sometimes....

Anyway... perhaps tomorrow we will awaken to news of CL's capture. [/*]


If you think you're being stalked how do you think I feel? Just ignore them. The more that is said the more they will keep going. It is not important. I have seen this done before on other forums. Just saying...........

We should just keep hoping for Cesar's capture.

JMO

[crymeariver2006]

Did anyone see the CNN interview a few minutes ago with Mary Lauterbach and the Congressman?

[Charlotte]

Color me strange, but I look to the military to protect its servicemembers from being murdered by fellow servicemembers.

If a fraction of the scrutiny that Maria and her family has been and is being subjected to had been directed at CL at any point before he was allowed to skip off into the sunset, ML and the baby just might still be here. But I understand that it's so much easier to blame the victim and her family than to ask the military to be accountable for its failures.

To ask that would be unpatriotic, wouldn't it? :patriot:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Charlotte
Color me strange, but I look to the military to protect its servicemembers from being murdered by fellow servicemembers.

If a fraction of the scrutiny that Maria and her family has been and is being subjected to had been directed at CL at any point before he was allowed to skip off into the sunset, ML and the baby just might still be here. But I understand that it's so much easier to blame the victim and her family than to ask the military to be accountable for its failures.

To ask that would be unpatriotic, wouldn't it? :patriot: [/*]

I understand what you're saying, but IF the investigation reveals that Maria and Cesar maintained contact the whole time and that she went to his house willingly on 12/14, how is the MC supposed to protect her?

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006
Did anyone see the CNN interview a few minutes ago with Mary Lauterbach and the Congressman? [/*]

No, I didn't. What was said? TIA cryme.

[gobucks]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Isn't that a burial site for Civil War dead?

(Or do I have my Jamestowns mixed up?)

But I don't think he's ever been running that fast or that hard anyway. That's jmo though.

And, "the free can be accessable in many forms" - if one considers Christina to be "the free" one can believe they have continued contact, way past the "Houston letters".

"The sand and the dust holds the key" - J'ville is about 30 minutes from the beach so......

Or it could be "The Cat" is just messing with our heads!





:D [/*]
My vote goes to messing with everyone's head

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


No, I didn't. What was said? TIA cryme. [/*]

Nothing new really, but I did notice that Mary now says that when Maria called her on 5/10 she said "Mom, I was raped".

Not "attacked" as in the previous interviews or media reports.

That on April 10th, Maria was working the "night shift" and that Cesar locked the doors and raped her.

Not sure when the interview was done, (IMO it was around Easter) but it looked to me that it was shown today to try and counteract the claims last night from NCIS about the previous UA's and the "credibility issues". Just my perception of it though. Mary did make the comment several times "even if someone has perceived credibility issues...."

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Nothing new really, but I did notice that Mary now says that when Maria called her on 5/10 she said "Mom, I was raped".

Not "attacked" as in the previous interviews or media reports.

That on April 10th, Maria was working the "night shift" and that Cesar locked the doors and raped her.

Not sure when the interview was done, (IMO it was around Easter) but it looked to me that it was shown today to try and counteract the claims last night from NCIS about the previous UA's and the "credibility issues". Just my perception of it though. Mary did make the comment several times "even if someone has perceived credibility issues...." [/*]

TY cryme!

Oh you mean Mary's statement to the DDN? Mary Lauterbach was strolling out of Wal-Mart on May 10.... Maria gasped out the words between sobs: "Mom, I was attacked." Link: http://www.daytondailynews.com/story/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/01/20/ddn012008mariainside.html?cxntlid=inform

Duty logs should be able to prove or disprove if they were on duty together.

I also feel the re-airing of this interview is done to counter what NCIS has previously stated (and again last night on AMW).

jmo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Charlotte
Color me strange, but I look to the military to protect its service members from being murdered by fellow service members.

If a fraction of the scrutiny that Maria and her family has been and is being subjected to had been directed at CL at any point before he was allowed to skip off into the sunset, ML and the baby just might still be here. But I understand that it's so much easier to blame the victim and her family than to ask the military to be accountable for its failures.

To ask that would be unpatriotic, wouldn't it? :patriot: [/*]

I am not sure why you think the blame lays with the MC. From May 2007 on, Laurean continued to do his job duties. He was not UA during any of those times from May 07 thru Jan. 10, 2008. He even left the base during these months and had taken a ten day leave only to return in a timely manner even being gone for holidays and extended weekends only to return to duty. Even after Maria went missing he continued to come to work everyday and was on an authorized leave of absence for those past three days before he absconded on January 11, 2008.

How could the MC ever have predicted that Maria would go to the off base home of Laurean? It was out of their jurisdiction anyway but imo in their wildest imagination they would have never guessed that she would break the MPO order, herself.

From the time she reported the allegations not one thing happened between Laurean and Maria while on that base. The MPO in place was not broken and Maria specifically told them she did not fear Laurean yet they still continued to keep the MPO enforce.:shrug:

imoo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


TY cryme!

Oh you mean Mary's statement to the DDN? Mary Lauterbach was strolling out of Wal-Mart on May 10.... Maria gasped out the words between sobs: "Mom, I was attacked." Link: http://www.daytondailynews.com/story/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/01/20/ddn012008mariainside.html?cxntlid=inform

Duty logs should be able to prove or disprove if they were on duty together.

I also feel the re-airing of this interview is done to counter what NCIS has previously stated (and again last night on AMW).

jmo [/*]

Yes, that's the one!

And O/T, but may I extend to you my heartfelt sympathy for your beloved Tar Heels.....

:rose:

[marinewife5]

There was concern from the MC when she went missing in that she was pregnant and in her last trimester. There was not concern that she left unwillingly due to her past actions and the note left. That is not cya or having their cake and eating it too. JMO

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I am not sure why you think the blame lays with the MC. From May 2007 on, Laurean continued to do his job duties. He was not UA during any of those times from May 07 thru Jan. 10, 2008. He even left the base during these months and had taken a ten day leave only to return in a timely manner even being gone for holidays and extended weekends only to return to duty. Even after Maria went missing he continued to come to work everyday and was on an authorized leave of absence for those past three days before he absconded on January 11, 2008. [/*]

Good for him. Maria continued to do her job duties too. She took the same leaves and returned on time just as he did (she with the supposed terrible UA problem). The 3-day authorized leave of absence that CL was granted is what allowed him to escape. I don't view it as proof of his good character.

How could the MC ever have predicted that Maria would go to the off base home of Laurean? It was out of their jurisdiction anyway but imo in their wildest imagination they would have never guessed that she would break the MPO order, herself.

She broke an order?? Funny, I don't recall that she was ordered to do anything. He was, though. And how did she end up at the off base home of Laurean? You must have information on that circumstance that I've missed.

Was it beyond their wildest imagination to alert the off-base LE to the existence of the MPO? I would think they'd have wanted "the integrity of the case" ;) to be protected in all venues.

From the time she reported the allegations not one thing happened between Laurean and Maria while on that base. The MPO in place was not broken and Maria specifically told them she did not fear Laurean yet they still continued to keep the MPO enforce.:shrug:

imoo [/*]

Yep, so they say. Except for that little lapse in the MPO coverage after she was dead. No matter, at least "the integrity of the case" wasn't in danger of being compromised by her at that time, right?

Btw, why was she listed on the MPO as the one to be protected from Laurean, and not "the integrity of the case" listed as needing protection from both of them? Why wasn't an identical MPO issued to her, directing her to have no contact with CL, if that were truly the case?

And did anyone in the MC ever tell Maria that the MPO wasn't intended or designed to protect her, it was supposedly only for the purpose of protecting the case? I don't think she was made aware of that, judging by the fact that she carried a copy with her, and the report that she requested one of the renewals. Was she concerned that without it, she might have an uncontrollable urge to speak with him?

She must have been very worried about "the integrity of the case." IMO. :read:

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I understand what you're saying, but IF the investigation reveals that Maria and Cesar maintained contact the whole time and that she went to his house willingly on 12/14, how is the MC supposed to protect her? [/*]

Transferring either her or CL to another base would have been a good start.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by Charlotte


Good for him. Maria continued to do her job duties too. She took the same leaves and returned on time just as he did (she with the supposed terrible UA problem). The 3-day authorized leave of absence that CL was granted is what allowed him to escape. I don't view it as proof of his good character.



She broke an order?? Funny, I don't recall that she was ordered to do anything. He was, though. And how did she end up at the off base home of Laurean? You must have information on that circumstance that I've missed.

Was it beyond their wildest imagination to alert the off-base LE to the existence of the MPO? I would think they'd have wanted "the integrity of the case" ;) to be protected in all venues.



Yep, so they say. Except for that little lapse in the MPO coverage after she was dead. No matter, at least "the integrity of the case" wasn't in danger of being compromised by her at that time, right?

Btw, why was she listed on the MPO as the one to be protected from Laurean, and not "the integrity of the case" listed as needing protection from both of them? Why wasn't an identical MPO issued to her, directing her to have no contact with CL, if that were truly the case?

And did anyone in the MC ever tell Maria that the MPO wasn't intended or designed to protect her, it was supposedly only for the purpose of protecting the case? I don't think she was made aware of that, judging by the fact that she carried a copy with her, and the report that she requested one of the renewals. Was she concerned that without it, she might have an uncontrollable urge to speak with him?

She must have been very worried about "the integrity of the case." IMO. :read: [/*]


:beer:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by Charlotte


Transferring either her or CL to another base would have been a good start. [/*]

I would think they would need a stellar marine typist in Iraq. They do paperwork there too.

JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006
Did anyone see the CNN interview a few minutes ago with Mary Lauterbach and the Congressman? [/*]

Is there maybe a link to it cryme?:)

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by marinewife5
There was concern from the MC when she went missing in that she was pregnant and in her last trimester. There was not concern that she left unwillingly due to her past actions and the note left. That is not cya or having their cake and eating it too. JMO [/*]

My belief is that given the allegations she had made against a fellow Marine, there should have been concern over her sudden disappearance. The lack of concern for her safety was the problem, IMO. Her "past actions" as far as UAs have yet to be detailed in any way. They were briefly mentioned by Ciccarelli in order to give the public the impression that she was a habitual runaway Marine, and apparently he was successful. JMOO

As for the note left behind, yes they had that -- and they also had the guy who turned it in to them saying that she only took with her items that indicated a brief outing. But they only give credence to the former, and not the latter? That is cya, or having their cake and eating it too, IMO.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


TY cryme!

Oh you mean Mary's statement to the DDN? Mary Lauterbach was strolling out of Wal-Mart on May 10.... Maria gasped out the words between sobs: "Mom, I was attacked." Link: http://www.daytondailynews.com/story/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/01/20/ddn012008mariainside.html?cxntlid=inform

Duty logs should be able to prove or disprove if they were on duty together.

I also feel the re-airing of this interview is done to counter what NCIS has previously stated (and again last night on AMW).

jmo [/*]

Maybe Maria said both. She could have said she was attacked and she could have said she was raped. Semantics. I've notice a lot of that goes on here. One word does not change what Maria was saying to her mother. jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I am not sure why you think the blame lays with the MC. From May 2007 on, Laurean continued to do his job duties. He was not UA during any of those times from May 07 thru Jan. 10, 2008. He even left the base during these months and had taken a ten day leave only to return in a timely manner even being gone for holidays and extended weekends only to return to duty. Even after Maria went missing he continued to come to work everyday and was on an authorized leave of absence for those past three days before he absconded on January 11, 2008.

How could the MC ever have predicted that Maria would go to the off base home of Laurean? It was out of their jurisdiction anyway but imo in their wildest imagination they would have never guessed that she would break the MPO order, herself.

From the time she reported the allegations not one thing happened between Laurean and Maria while on that base. The MPO in place was not broken and Maria specifically told them she did not fear Laurean yet they still continued to keep the MPO enforce.:shrug:

imoo [/*]

And she repeated to them several times she was not afraid of him. She had a MPO in her car, but yet she went to his home. TO BELIEVE any woman who was ever raped would go to her alleged rapists home is incredulous for me. It doesn't compute.

Maria was a work in progress and I can't help but think that if Mary and Peter had acted on their suspicions, she would have been in a different place. JMO THO.

Unfortunately it would look like Maria had almost boxed herself in with reference to the end IMO. She had so many inconsistencies in her stories, people didn't know what to believe. BUT INCONSISTENT OR NOT, if you think Durham would have been calling the shots when I didn't hear from my child for more than a day with her record of calling as her mother claims, NO GATE WOULD HAVE STOPPED ME EVER. NOT EVER. IF they called the cops I would have been more than willing to call a paper and get on the base.

BUT I think we all know they would not have been sent off. IMO Mary knew this was likely to be a can of worms, just didn't think it would be murder.

JMO. :(

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by Charlotte


My belief is that given the allegations she had made against a fellow Marine, there should have been concern over her sudden disappearance. The lack of concern for her safety was the problem, IMO. Her "past actions" as far as UAs have yet to be detailed in any way. They were briefly mentioned by Ciccarelli in order to give the public the impression that she was a habitual runaway Marine, and apparently he was successful. JMOO

As for the note left behind, yes they had that -- and they also had the guy who turned it in to them saying that she only took with her items that indicated a brief outing. But they only give credence to the former, and not the latter? That is cya, or having their cake and eating it too, IMO. [/*]

Um, I mentioned concern for her safety. And the reality is that no matter what the mc can prove, you won't believe it. So, therefore, there is no point in arguing it, imo. the truth is what it is, and i'm content with that. jmo

[Charlotte]

How exactly did ML wind up at CL's house again? It must have been determined by the authorities and posted about here, and I must keep missing it.

It's all Maria's own fault (and that of her mother and other family) that CL is charged with her murder, from what I can gather from some posts here. The military had no responsibility for her even, or especially, in light of the allegations she made against a fellow Marine, and CL didn't do it anyway -- he's the victim of Maria's shenanigans and his wife's murderously jealous streak, right?
His wife did the deed, coerced him into burying and burning the body, dictated the notes that he left, and then either threatened him into leaving or offed him, too, from a sampling of posts that I've read.

Sorry to disagree with the more common themes here, but I truly believe that he raped her, he killed her, and he ran. It's not as interesting as some of the blame-the-victim-and-everyone-but-CL-and-the-military narratives that I've read, but it's the simplest, and most plausible, scenario to me. JMOO

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Nothing new really, but I did notice that Mary now says that when Maria called her on 5/10 she said "Mom, I was raped".

Not "attacked" as in the previous interviews or media reports.

That on April 10th, Maria was working the "night shift" and that Cesar locked the doors and raped her.

Not sure when the interview was done, (IMO it was around Easter) but it looked to me that it was shown today to try and counteract the claims last night from NCIS about the previous UA's and the "credibility issues". Just my perception of it though. Mary did make the comment several times "even if someone has perceived credibility issues...." [/*]

What about Cicarelli's statement on AMW? That was the first time I heard about Maria being UA before. I wonder when that interview was originally done. No matter, he sure didn't mention it in the PC that I know of.

Of course the credibility problem came from the one boot camp story. That is never ending, I would say. It also grows and grows.

Unless Cicarelli comes up with information on each and every UA and each and every credibility issue, I consider it a very broad statement and CYA for the MC.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Charlotte


Good for him. Maria continued to do her job duties too. She took the same leaves and returned on time just as he did (she with the supposed terrible UA problem). The 3-day authorized leave of absence that CL was granted is what allowed him to escape. I don't view it as proof of his good character.



She broke an order?? Funny, I don't recall that she was ordered to do anything. He was, though. And how did she end up at the off base home of Laurean? You must have information on that circumstance that I've missed.


Why wasn't an identical MPO issued to her, directing her to have no contact with CL, if that were truly the case?

[/*]

So you think she was under the impression that the MPO order did not apply to her and even though he was directed to stay a 1,000 feet away from her ..........she could just walk right up to him, nose to nose, any place, at any given time and come up to where he was?

I have had a RO on my ex husband. There wasn't one on me but I certainly knew the parameters given applied to me as well. To invade his domain or come around him would have flown in the face of the RO in the first place and impede the investigation into the alleged physical assault that was later proven in court.

No, I haven't missed anything.........including the fact that no kidnapping charges have been filed on Laurean that shows they have evidence he kidnapped or forced her to come there against her will.

imoo

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


What about Cicarelli's statement on AMW? That was the first time I heard about Maria being UA before. I wonder when that interview was originally done. No matter, he sure didn't mention it in the PC that I know of.

Of course the credibility problem came from the one boot camp story. That is never ending, I would say. It also grows and grows.

Unless Cicarelli comes up with information on each and every UA and each and every credibility issue, I consider it a very broad statement and CYA for the MC.

JMO [/*]

The first time you heard of ML being UA may not have been the first time the mc did. and you have no idea where the credibility problem came from. and being that the root of both is part of her PRIVATE personnel file, I do not think anything will come to light proving either. JMO

[nuttintodo]

Link to the CNN interview (had to be around Easter): http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/04/05/candiotti.marine.mom.cnn?iref=videosearch

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by marinewife5


Um, I mentioned concern for her safety.

No, you mentioned concern for her health (her advanced stage of pregnancy, to be exact). That is not the same as concern for her safety at the hands of another.

And the reality is that no matter what the mc can prove, you won't believe it. So, therefore, there is no point in arguing it, imo. the truth is what it is, and i'm content with that. jmo [/*]

The reality is that you don't have the foggiest clue what I'd believe with actual proof (not just CYA words) from the MC. But since the odds of them actually ponying up solid proof of what they've put out there is slim to none, you're correct -- there's no point in arguing about it. As you said, the truth is what it is.

Peace. :rose:

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


So you think she was under the impression that the MPO order did not apply to her and even though he was directed to stay a 1,000 feet away from her ..........she could just walk right up to him, nose to nose, any place, at any given time and come up to where he was?

I have no idea what she was under the impression of, but technically speaking, yes, she could have approached him without breaking an order against her, since there was no order against her saying that she could not. I haven't seen any evidence that she did that, though.

I have had a RO on my ex husband. There wasn't one on me but I certainly knew the parameters given applied to me as well. To invade his domain or come around him would have flown in the face of the RO in the first place and impede the investigation into the alleged physical assault that was later proven in court.

Was your restraining order obtained with your safety from your ex in mind after a physical assault, or did you obtain it to keep yourself from contacting him and jeopardizing the integrity of the case? It might not have been smart to "invade his domain" at that time, but unless he took out a RO on you in return, you could have been wherever you wanted to be, and the onus would have been on him to remove himself from the scene. Had you gone to his home, the smart thing for him to have done would have been to call the police, and report that he had a RO against him, but the protected person was on his property. Glad to hear that your case was resolved in your favor.

(ETA that your ex could also have pressed charges against you for trespassing, had you gone to his home uninvited and unwelcome.)


No, I haven't missed anything.........including the fact that no kidnapping charges have been filed on Laurean that shows they have evidence he kidnapped or forced her to come there against her will.

imoo

I didn't say that you had missed anything -- I said that I must have, as in the authorities announcing how she ended up at his house. It's repeatedly stated as fact on this forum that she went there on her own, so there must have been an announcement from the military or LE that she did, and I must have missed it. I sure wish someone would provide the link to that.

Have we seen evidence that she went to his house willingly? If so, what reason has been given by someone in authority that she went there? And why didn't CL report that to his commander, rather than kill her? TIA

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


So you think she was under the impression that the MPO order did not apply to her and even though he was directed to stay a 1,000 feet away from her ..........she could just walk right up to him, nose to nose, any place, at any given time and come up to where he was?

I have had a RO on my ex husband. There wasn't one on me but I certainly knew the parameters given applied to me as well. To invade his domain or come around him would have flown in the face of the RO in the first place and impede the investigation into the alleged physical assault that was later proven in court.

No, I haven't missed anything.........including the fact that no kidnapping charges have been filed on Laurean that shows they have evidence he kidnapped or forced her to come there against her will.

imoo [/*]

This is that little double standard I take issue with GB. Who in their right mind would go to the home of a man they accused of rape? NOBODY I KNOW would and I certainly wouldn't.

I don't think I'd be thinking that the order didn't apply to me so I was free to go to his home no less (even tho the MPO) was not for that purpose. My point is simply that she wouldn't have been found at his home if she was fearing him with no kidnapping charges issued. I continue to believe they were in contact. JMO

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by marinewife5


The first time you heard of ML being UA may not have been the first time the mc did. and you have no idea where the credibility problem came from. and being that the root of both is part of her PRIVATE personnel file, I do not think anything will come to light proving either. JMO [/*]

All I am saying is the AMW segment was to catch a murderer of a marine mother and her child.

Cicarelli's purpose for his statement was to make Maria look bad on that show and to CYA. That was not the place for him to do that.

It was petty and added nothing to catching Cesar. Just saying...............JMO

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


This is that little double standard I take issue with GB. Who in their right mind would go to the home of a man they accused of rape? NOBODY I KNOW would and I certainly wouldn't.

I don't think I'd be thinking that the order didn't apply to me so I was free to go to his home no less (even tho the MPO) was not for that purpose. My point is simply that she wouldn't have been found at his home if she was fearing him with no kidnapping charges issued. I continue to believe they were in contact. JMO [/*]

She wouldn't have been found dead at his home if there hadn't been reason to fear him. JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

I just watched the video and am again surprised by the dismissal of the March 26th allegation on the part of Mary Lauterbach. It's almost like it didn't exist from the Walmart call to her latest interview. You simply can't rewrite history and think people are just going to buy into it. After a while her credibility will be sorely challenged and I hate to see that happen. It's just like the myspace page.

It really makes me wonder if something came back from the USMC regarding drinking. I find it more than strange that after all this time Maria's myspace nic went from "I heart beer" to "I heart soccer". It would appear she couldn't even have her own words left behind and that's kind of sad.

:( jmo

[nuttintodo]

Good grief....

Why not place the blame squarely on Cesar Armando Laurean? After all he's the one accused of murdering, burying and buring Maria Lauterbach and her unborn child.

IMO, that's where the blame should be---CAL alledgedly acted as her judge, jury and executioner on or about December 14, 2007.

JMOPO

[gobucks]

IMO this is why ML was with CAL:

El viernes es para la amante, el sábado para la esposa, y el domingo son para la Mamá

Friday is for the mistress, Saturday is for the wife and Sunday is for Mother

Things went south when one or more parties didn't want to accept their role in this triangle.

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Good grief....

Why not place the blame squarely on Cesar Armando Laurean? After all he's the one accused of murdering, burying and buring Maria Lauterbach and her unborn child.

IMO, that's where the blame should be---CAL alledgedly acted as her judge, jury and executioner on or about December 14, 2007.

JMOPO [/*]

The blame is with CL......he will pay for his crimes...

however, the blame for letting him slip away must sit on the Sheriff and the MC....

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by JanDoe


The blame is with CL......he will pay for his crimes...

however, the blame for letting him slip away must sit on the Sheriff and the MC.... [/*]

Why should his wife get a free pass? :confused:

jmo

SHE LITERALLY GAVE HIM A HEAD START IIRC. :eek:

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Why should his wife get a free pass? :confused:

jmo

SHE LITERALLY GAVE HIM A HEAD START IIRC. :eek: [/*]


they give her a pass for lack of proof and her cooperation....

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by JanDoe



they give her a pass for lack of proof and her cooperation.... [/*]

As they should, IMO. And also the time frame of it all is less and less.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Good grief....

Why not place the blame squarely on Cesar Armando Laurean? After all he's the one accused of murdering, burying and buring Maria Lauterbach and her unborn child.

IMO, that's where the blame should be---CAL alledgedly acted as her judge, jury and executioner on or about December 14, 2007.

JMOPO [/*]

Well, I for one am not convinced it rests solely on Cesar. I am of the opinion he had a helper at a minimum. Whether that helper came in afterward or was instrumental in the murder remains to be seen at this time. But I look for that to change when he is apprehended and bought back.

JMO based on what I have read for months. :patriot:

I will blame her murder on the murderer or murderers.

I can't dismiss the victimology involved in this case and it's a pretty intense case study IMO. Starting with Mary and her various stories and ending with the rewriting of history from my POV.

The USMC does NOT attempt to make someone they RECRUITED look bad, the person through PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY represents themselves through their RECORD.

Unfortunately Maria's record speaks to a young woman with problems and NCIS confirmed she was possibly facing a discharge.

I am of the opinion the answers are in the congressman's letter for those of us who might want to know the whole story.

ALL JMO. :patriot:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by JanDoe



they give her a pass for lack of proof and her cooperation.... [/*]

I don't believe she's gotten a pass for anything. However, the day they come out and say she is officially cleared of any wrongdoing in either the murder, the coverup, or the "escape", I reserve the right to change my opinion.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by JanDoe



they give her a pass for lack of proof and her cooperation.... [/*]

I was posting to you....you were the one who posted who was at fault for his escape. SHE WAITED and SHE HAS A PART IN IT IMO. :patriot:

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I don't believe she's gotten a pass for anything. However, the day they come out and say she is officially cleared of any wrongdoing in either the murder, the coverup, or the "escape", I reserve the right to change my opinion. [/*]

PSSST....please allow for the misinterpretation factor. I meant to ask JAN why she was giving Christina a pass on holding some responsibility for his escape since she waited to come forth.

JMO.;)

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


PSSST....please allow for the misinterpretation factor. I meant to ask JAN why she was giving Christina a pass on holding some responsibility for his escape since she waited to come forth.

JMO.;) [/*]

Well I started to ask the same thing, but apparently today is Blame The MC and OCSD Day. Maybe we should just play along?

:D

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


I was posting to you....you were the one who posted who was at fault for his escape. SHE WAITED and SHE HAS A PART IN IT IMO. :patriot: [/*]

excuse me......the day the Sheriff came to the base because ML
was missing is the day the Sheriff or the MC could have held him
for a period of time while they investigated further.....Christina
would not had a say in this scenario......

[Charlotte]

I thought every day was Blame Everyone But CL and the Military Day? :(

I don't play along with that, though. :cool:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Well I started to ask the same thing, but apparently today is Blame The MC and OCSD Day. Maybe we should just play along?

:D [/*]

It's also blame Maria and Christina day, but who's keeping score?:lol:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Charlotte
I thought every day was Blame Everyone But CL and the Military Day? :(

I don't play along with that, though. :cool: [/*]

No we usually blame the murderer (whoever he or she may be determined to be).

You should check back more often.

:cool:

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by JanDoe


excuse me......the day the Sheriff came to the base because ML
was missing is the day the Sheriff or the MC could have held him
for a period of time while they investigated further.....Christina
would not had a say in this scenario...... [/*]

But ultimately, she gave him the HEAD START. She does have a part in it too, legally it remains to be seen. But factually she gave him a head start of hours on the road IMO. :shrug:

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by JanDoe


excuse me......the day the Sheriff came to the base because ML
was missing is the day the Sheriff or the MC could have held him
for a period of time while they investigated further.....Christina
would not had a say in this scenario...... [/*]

The MC could have held him, but would the Sheriff have had the authority to do so, on base?
Would he have had jurisdiction there? :confused:

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


No we usually blame the murderer (whoever he or she may be determined to be).

You should check back more often.

:cool: [/*]

I don't consider anything about this case to be playing. I just don't, it's a tragedy for all period IMO. :(

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Charlotte


The MC could have held him, but would the Sheriff have had the authority to do so, on base?
Would he have had jurisdiction there? :confused: [/*]

The Sheriff could have taken him off the base.....

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by Charlotte


The MC could have held him, but would the Sheriff have had the authority to do so, on base?
Would he have had jurisdiction there? :confused: [/*]
what did the mc have to hold him on? or the ocsd for that matter? tia

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


I don't consider anything about this case to be playing. I just don't, it's a tragedy for all period IMO. :( [/*]

Oh don't get me wrong, I completely agree. You know me better than that.

;)

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by JanDoe


The Sheriff could have taken him off the base..... [/*]

I mean, would the Sheriff have had the jurisdiction to remove CL from base, or would the MC have had the jurisdiction, and would they have had to have given the Sheriff permission to do so?
(Would they have done so, if asked?)

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by JanDoe


The Sheriff could have taken him off the base..... [/*]

How and under what grounds?

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Charlotte


I mean, would the Sheriff have had the jurisdiction to remove CL from base, or would the MC have had the jurisdiction, and would have had to have given the Sheriff permission to do so?
(Would they have done so, if asked?) [/*]

The Sheriff had jurisdiction to remove him from the Base as suspect in missing person report.........if he turned out not to be.....he would have been
released.....

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


How and under what grounds? [/*]

In a patrol car, on the grounds that he's a person of interest and wanted for questioning in the disappearance of a female who had charged him with rape? Just thinking of possibilities... JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by JanDoe


The Sheriff had jurisdiction to remove him from the Base as suspect in missing person report.........if he turned out not to be.....he would have been
released..... [/*]

What kind of paperwork would they present to get him off base?

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by Charlotte


In a patrol car, on the grounds that he's a person of interest and wanted for questioning in the disappearance of a female who had charged him with rape? Just thinking of possibilities... JMO [/*]

it's a cryin' shame they let him have his right to remain silent and right to an attorney too. where's a rubber hose when you need one? iirc, they did question him, and that was his response. should they have detained him for exercising his rights? jmo

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


What kind of paperwork would they present to get him off base? [/*]

whatever paperwork that exists between civilian and military that
would have been necessary.......it didn't happen.....

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Charlotte



Was your restraining order obtained with your safety from your ex in mind after a physical assault, or did you obtain it to keep yourself from contacting him and jeopardizing the integrity of the case? It might not have been smart to "invade his domain" at that time, but unless he took out a RO on you in return, you could have been wherever you wanted to be, and the onus would have been on him to remove himself from the scene. Had you gone to his home, the smart thing for him to have done would have been to call the police, and report that he had a RO against him, but the protected person was on his property. Glad to hear that your case was resolved in your favor.

(ETA that your ex could also have pressed charges against you for trespassing, had you gone to his home uninvited and unwelcome.)

[/*]

I had no intentions of contacting him.

My RO was a recommendation made to me by the Prosecutor....for protection and to ensure the integrity of the ongoing investigation. Things can get very iffy when the two main parties start contact again...and it is frowned on by the court, which I understand fully.

If I had foolishly gone to his home after then or purposefully went where I knew he was when I had allegations lodged against him it would not have bode well for me in court. The Judge would look at me with a very critical eye imo for ME to be the one. His attorney would have been leaping at the chance to bring that up but I knew I was never going to pierce that order myself and prayed that he honored it, which he did.

No, my ex couldn't have gotten me for anything. I stayed in my own environment and never had any intentions of invading his space or coming near him. Coming to his home where I knew he would be alone was something that was never going to happen and not in the realm of possibilities.

In this case I believe prior contact had been made between the both of them, off and on, before she decided to come over that day.

imoo

[caejde]

If I am not mistaken, if Maria would have come up to Cesar all he has to do is call MP's or the OOD and report that.

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by marinewife5


it's a cryin' shame they let him have his right to remain silent and right to an attorney too. where's a rubber hose when you need one? iirc, they did question him, and that was his response. should they have detained him for exercising his rights? jmo [/*]

It's a cryin' shame that they let him get away.

At least he had his rights protected. :read:

Can't say the same for his victim. JMO

[martha]

I can;t help but think about at the very first. did she go to the mc because she wanted to or was it someone elce idea???? just thinking/ the first time meeting of cl and ml was it at work. was there something elce to their friendship? did ml have a good friend she could tell everything in her life to? if she was bipolar she did not need to be in the mc. I can think of a million ques and the reason for that is she needed help before dec 14 things keep going thru my mind. something start when you or very young and some can be because of the closeness of the family. our lives as children carry over to our life later on. I keep thinking if someone had been there for her before dec 14 but she may have not wanted anyone. we will never know the truth. No matter what was going on cl did not have to kill her. i wish someone could have been there before the killing of ml and her baby. no matter what happenes in this case it will not take the awful truth away a mother and her baby is gone. when I think about it I start to cry. nothing will ever take the hurt away. death is so final.:rose:

[caejde]

How can the sheriff detain anyone when he wasn't questioned as a suspect. They never read him his Miranda rights?

[marinewife5]

as much as i hate this dirtbag being on the run, i would hate him getting off on a rights violation even more. I'll take eventual justice over no justice at all. and i find it beyond disgusting that ml has a standard of "victimness" to live up to even after she has passed. she was murdered and desecrated. she was a victim period. cl clearly pretended to be someone else, which in itself is lying and shows what a coward and (blankety blank) he is. i wish that would have been enough to detain him, but it wasn't. who knows what persona he's living under at the moment? poor innocent who was a victim of circumstance? sleazy, but legal. jmo

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


What kind of paperwork would they present to get him off base? [/*]

None, it is not a foreign country. imo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Charlotte


The MC could have held him, but would the Sheriff have had the authority to do so, on base?
Would he have had jurisdiction there? :confused: [/*]

Nope OCSD doesn't have jurisdiction aboard Camp Lejeune.

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by Charlotte


It's a cryin' shame that they let him get away.

At least he had his rights protected. :read:

Can't say the same for his victim. JMO [/*]

you're right. the mc and le should have just gone ahead and handed him his "get out of jail free" card on the spot. jmo

[martha]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I had no intentions of contacting him.

My RO was a recommendation made to me by the Prosecutor....for protection and to ensure the integrity of the ongoing investigation. Things can get very iffy when the two main parties start contact again...and it is frowned on by the court, which I understand fully.

If I had foolishly gone to his home after then or purposefully went where I knew he was when I had allegations lodged against him it would not have bode well for me in court. The Judge would look at me with a very critical eye imo for ME to be the one. His attorney would have been leaping at the chance to bring that up but I knew I was never going to pierce that order myself and prayed that he honored it, which he did.

No, my ex couldn't have gotten me for anything. I stayed in my own environment and never had any intentions of invading his space or coming near him. Coming to his home where I knew he would be alone was something that was never going to happen and not in the realm of possibilities.

In this case I believe prior contact had been made between the both of them, off and on, before she decided to come over that day.

imoo [/*] ita I think they did have contact with each other all along jmho.if someone rapes you boy you make sure you or never alone with them again.:rose:

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by marinewife5


you're right. the mc and le should have just gone ahead and handed him his "get out of jail free" card on the spot. jmo [/*]

Essentially, they did. (ETA -- Glad we agree.) ;)

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I had no intentions of contacting him.

My RO was a recommendation made to me by the Prosecutor....for protection and to ensure the integrity of the ongoing investigation. Things can get very iffy when the two main parties start contact again...and it is frowned on by the court, which I understand fully.

If I had foolishly gone to his home after then or purposefully went where I knew he was when I had allegations lodged against him it would not have bode well for me in court. The Judge would look at me with a very critical eye imo for ME to be the one. His attorney would have been leaping at the chance to bring that up but I knew I was never going to pierce that order myself and prayed that he honored it, which he did.

No, my ex couldn't have gotten me for anything. I stayed in my own environment and never had any intentions of invading his space or coming near him. Coming to his home where I knew he would be alone was something that was never going to happen and not in the realm of possibilities.

In this case I believe prior contact had been made between the both of them, off and on, before she decided to come over that day.

imoo [/*]

Very well stated GB. The court has a jaundiced eye when someone is seeking protection but yet finds themselves making contact with the person they are seeking protection from IMO.

It's reasonable and situations where women do that are largely contributing to making it hard for other women to get them IMO.

I can't imagine anyone thinking it would be okay to make contact if they wanted anyone to take them seriously in their allegations. This could be the kind of behavior behind the USMC claiming the inconsistencies.

Remember, today again, Mary is back with April tenth and no mention of March 26th.

JMO. :shrug:

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by Charlotte


Essentially, they did. [/*]

essentially, they did not. they followed the law to ensure a fair trial and firm conviction. jmo

[gaelicpeas]

I don't know if LE could have detained CL. But they sure as heck could have put surveillance on him, IMO.

[martha]

Originally posted by marinewife5
as much as i hate this dirtbag being on the run, i would hate him getting off on a rights violation even more. I'll take eventual justice over no justice at all. and i find it beyond disgusting that ml has a standard of "victimness" to live up to even after she has passed. she was murdered and desecrated. she was a victim period. cl clearly pretended to be someone else, which in itself is lying and shows what a coward and (blankety blank) he is. i wish that would have been enough to detain him, but it wasn't. who knows what persona he's living under at the moment? poor innocent who was a victim of circumstance? sleazy, but legal. jmo [/*] AMEN you or so right. they could have been lovers until the end but he did kill her or someone killed her and that sweet heart baby. If I was her mother the only way i could live with that is to know one day I would see her and the baby in heaven.jmho:rose:

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by marinewife5


essentially, they did not. they followed the law to ensure a fair trial and firm conviction. jmo [/*]

:beer: :patriot: And bravo for that!

[caejde]

As I've said before...gotta love those double standards. It's ok for Christina to just be a witness because they have no proof to arrest her. But it's not ok with Cesar because they had no proof either on the disappearance or rape.

And as I've said plenty of times, there is noone to blame but the person/s who made the CHOICE to take Maria's life. Noone forced anyone to take her life. The murderer made it all on their own.

And no matter what Maria did/did not do, she didn't deserve what happened to her.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by martha
ita I think they did have contact with each other all along jmho.if someone rapes you boy you make sure you or never alone with them again.:rose: [/*]

Yes martha, it's important to never allow yourself to be in a vulnerable position again and that's why education about sexual harassment and sexual assault are so very important.

JMO.:rose:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by marinewife5


it's a cryin' shame they let him have his right to remain silent and right to an attorney too. where's a rubber hose when you need one? iirc, they did question him, and that was his response. should they have detained him for exercising his rights? jmo [/*]

I have never heard of someone being removed because of pending allegations against them.

I can see it if they had gone to the Article 32 and had charged him.

Whether anyone likes it or not Laurean had the same rights as everyone else does in this country.

Since the allegation is to have occured on the base at CLJ and was being handled by the investigators there..........is it really feasable to ship someone out merely on an unsubstantiated allegation? Is that all it takes? They have bought their own home in the city but they are just ripped away from all that over something not even proven by facts just allegations which were inconsistent and confusing at the time?

I have never seen the civilian criminal court system place directives to remove anyone from their place of employment or force anyone to be removed from their own home especially even before charges have been lodged against them. :shrug:

imoo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by marinewife5


it's a cryin' shame they let him have his right to remain silent and right to an attorney too. where's a rubber hose when you need one? iirc, they did question him, and that was his response. should they have detained him for exercising his rights? jmo [/*]

Honestly MW, I think some people don't want the constitution to be used here anymore. I am thinking the right to a fair trial and the right to remain silent are no longer a guarantee.

We have posters who think an allegation alone should permit a BASE MOVE. Can you imagine how many base moves there might be just because somebody doesn't like where they are? Better yet, can you imagine the possible compromise to our military?

We are still a nation founded on IUPG and people as a whole have to exercise personal responsibility and personal safety themselves IMO. Evil will always be lurking and temptation will always be around, but you have to stay committed to protecting yourself too.

JMO. :patriot:

[caejde]

I'm out of here for now. Don't want to get accused of being a bad mother (sarcasm). Have a wonderful day everyone!

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
I don't know if LE could have detained CL. But they sure as heck could have put surveillance on him, IMO. [/*]

I agree with that. The MC could have done that too. Instead they gave him plenty of time off to plan his trip. imo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by martha
ita I think they did have contact with each other all along jmho.if someone rapes you boy you make sure you or never alone with them again.:rose: [/*]

ITA Martha!

Have you checked your PMs?;)

imoo:seeya:

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by Charlotte


I have no idea what she was under the impression of, but technically speaking, yes, she could have approached him without breaking an order against her, since there was no order against her saying that she could not. I haven't seen any evidence that she did that, though.



Was your restraining order obtained with your safety from your ex in mind after a physical assault, or did you obtain it to keep yourself from contacting him and jeopardizing the integrity of the case? It might not have been smart to "invade his domain" at that time, but unless he took out a RO on you in return, you could have been wherever you wanted to be, and the onus would have been on him to remove himself from the scene. Had you gone to his home, the smart thing for him to have done would have been to call the police, and report that he had a RO against him, but the protected person was on his property. Glad to hear that your case was resolved in your favor.

(ETA that your ex could also have pressed charges against you for trespassing, had you gone to his home uninvited and unwelcome.)



I didn't say that you had missed anything -- I said that I must have, as in the authorities announcing how she ended up at his house. It's repeatedly stated as fact on this forum that she went there on her own, so there must have been an announcement from the military or LE that she did, and I must have missed it. I sure wish someone would provide the link to that.

Have we seen evidence that she went to his house willingly? If so, what reason has been given by someone in authority that she went there? And why didn't CL report that to his commander, rather than kill her? TIA [/*]

And I thought I was the only one who had missed the proof that Maria went to Cesar's house voluntarily

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


ITA Martha!

Have you checked your PMs?;)

imoo:seeya: [/*]

:D

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


:D [/*]

Just wanted to make sure the JDNews group ...is watching and has something to talk about.:lol:

imoo

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I had no intentions of contacting him.

My RO was a recommendation made to me by the Prosecutor....for protection and to ensure the integrity of the ongoing investigation. Things can get very iffy when the two main parties start contact again...and it is frowned on by the court, which I understand fully.

If I had foolishly gone to his home after then or purposefully went where I knew he was when I had allegations lodged against him it would not have bode well for me in court. The Judge would look at me with a very critical eye imo for ME to be the one. His attorney would have been leaping at the chance to bring that up but I knew I was never going to pierce that order myself and prayed that he honored it, which he did.

No, my ex couldn't have gotten me for anything. I stayed in my own environment and never had any intentions of invading his space or coming near him. Coming to his home where I knew he would be alone was something that was never going to happen and not in the realm of possibilities.

In this case I believe prior contact had been made between the both of them, off and on, before she decided to come over that day.

imoo [/*]

Sure, a protected person intentionally approaching the subject of a civilian RO risks undermining her/his own case against the subject. But there are differences between your situation and Maria's.

Your RO was issued for your protection -- was Maria's? The MC says no, no, no, it wasn't. If it wasn't, then she wouldn't have risked trivializing the danger to her, since the MC says that she never was considered to be in any danger (they appear to have been wrong with that assessment, IMO).

If Maria's MPO had been issued for her protection, she would have risked the same as you would have by willing going to his home. Did she willingly go there? We'll most likely never know, since all we know is that she was killed there and she'll never be able to tell her side of that story.

Like I said, glad to hear that your case came out in your favor.
A lot of women who take out ROs against men who have abused them are killed by those men -- and I'm thinking that they didn't all willingly go to their ex's homes to be murdered. It wouldn't surprise me if there were people in every one of those cases who justify holding the victims responsible in some measure for their own demises, though. JMOO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by caejde
I'm out of here for now. Don't want to get accused of being a bad mother (sarcasm). Have a wonderful day everyone! [/*]


:biggrin: :seeya:

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


:D [/*]

:lol:

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by Howiefan


And I thought I was the only one who had missed the proof that Maria went to Cesar's house voluntarily [/*]

You mean it's not just me?? :eek:

:seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Charlotte


Sure, a protected person intentionally approaching the subject of a civilian RO risks undermining her/his own case against the subject. But there are differences between your situation and Maria's.

Your RO was issued for your protection -- was Maria's? The MC says no, no, no, it wasn't. If it wasn't, then she wouldn't have risked trivializing the danger to her, since the MC says that she never was considered to be in any danger (they appear to have been wrong with that assessment, IMO).

If Maria's MPO had been issued for her protection, she would have risked the same as you would have by willing going to his home. Did she willingly go there? We'll most likely never know, since all we know is that she was killed there and she'll never be able to tell her side of that story.

Like I said, glad to hear that your case came out in your favor.
A lot of women who take out ROs against men who have abused them are killed by those men -- and I'm thinking that they didn't all willingly go to their ex's homes to be murdered. It wouldn't surprise me if there were people in every one of those cases who justify holding the victims responsible in some measure for their own demises, though. JMOO [/*]

I told you the RO was for BOTH. For protection and to protect the integrity of the ongoing case.:shrug: Those two reasons were offered up to the Judge who agreed and who signed off on it.

I am not sure what you are talking about because usually when an ex murders.......... they are the ones that come to where the victim is not the other way around where the victim comes to their home or environment.:shrug: :confused:

imo

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Just wanted to make sure the JDNews group ...is watching and has something to talk about.:lol:

imoo [/*]

You know they were right on the money with comments about our constant "clean out your PM's!" :lol: I never had such a laugh.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


You know they were right on the money with comments about our constant "clean out your PM's!" :lol: I never had such a laugh. [/*]

:lol: I thought for a minute that board had been taken over by green aliens who like surfing message boards and forums.:lol: Its been a hoot since yesterday.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Charlotte


She wouldn't have been found dead at his home if there hadn't been reason to fear him. JMO [/*]

We have absolutely no idea what erupted once she got there that caused this horrific crime.

And it does not mean at the time she decided to come there she was fearful of him at all.

I am sure she did fear him in the end if she had time to even react but that does not mean she was fearful of him in the beginning. Sutherland said prior contact had been made before she came there.

So imo, she knew he was there and she knew he was alone.

Now imo I don't think it stayed that way.........I think they were alone then there was three. JMO tho.

imoo

[martha]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


ITA Martha!

Have you checked your PMs?;)

imoo:seeya: [/*] Yep I just did good to see you here today.:rose:

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I told you the RO was for BOTH. For protection and to protect the integrity of the ongoing case.:shrug: Those two reasons were offered up to the Judge who agreed and who signed off on it.

You're still ahead of Maria, according to the MC. They say that her protection was never a factor in issuing the MPOs.

They actually put "to protect the integrity of the ongoing case" on the paperwork the Judge signed for your RO??
Wow -- they must do things differently in your neck of the woods than they do around here. I've had ROs issued too, and never once did "the integrity of the ongoing case" enter into the paperwork (or even get mentioned verbally) at any time in the process by the prosecutor, the judge, or me. :shrug:


I am not sure what you are talking about because usually when an ex murders.......... they are the ones that come to where the victim is not the other way around where the victim comes to their home or environment. :confused:

imo [/*]

I think that's kinda what I said.

[martha]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Just wanted to make sure the JDNews group ...is watching and has something to talk about.:lol:

imoo [/*] I think the things someone is posting on that is awful. after all they don;t have to read what is on this board. :rose:

[martha]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Yes martha, it's important to never allow yourself to be in a vulnerable position again and that's why education about sexual harassment and sexual assault are so very important.

JMO.:rose: [/*] ITA since ml had been thru training would she have not been pretty strong? maybe she still had a crush on him? don;t take this wrong just saying I was 20 once and have not forgot how I liked black headed boys lol:rose:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by martha
I think the things someone is posting on that is awful. after all they don;t have to read what is on this board. :rose: [/*]

Thats true..........Martha.

Personally I think it must be some old grudge matches going on but I really don't know.:D

imoo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by martha
ITA since ml had been thru training would she have not been pretty strong? maybe she still had a crush on him? don;t take this wrong just saying I was 20 once and have not forgot how I liked black headed boys lol:rose: [/*]

It could be martha. We can not rule out the possibility they had a heated unhealthy relationship that ended in the worst way. JMO.

Jello wrestling Ocean. :eek:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Charlotte


You're still ahead of Maria, according to the MC. They say that her protection was never a factor in issuing the MPOs.

[/*]

I dont know.......I threw that RO away over 25 years ago. I do know that was said to the Judge whether he put that down I dont remember.

It makes no difference..... the result was the same when emplimented. The MPO was to distance Laurean from Maria by at least 1,000 feet. Each time when asked she said she did not fear Laurean. There was no violation to the MPO committed by Laurean. Maria not once said to the MC he had violated it or she was fearful of him.:shrug: By Maria saying these things she was affirming that she felt she did not need protection from Laurean.

imoo

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Thats true..........Martha.

Personally I think it must be some old grudge matches going on but I really don't know.:D

imoo [/*]

I think it is the same person pretending to be different people. It is silly and childish, IMO.

Anyway... I am still of the opinion that ML did not willingly go to the Laurean house, but I could obviously be wrong. I don't understand why some facts have not been released - IMO there are a number of things that are public knowledge, such as the actual hours of the party. Why can't LE tell us at least that?

JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by nelkirk


ITA

I hadn't thought of it before but after reading your post...

I can actually think of reasons why a woman who truly believed that she had been raped would go to her alleged rapists home...

1-She wanted to flaunt the power she felt she had over him because she was ruining his life with the allegations.

2-She wanted his wife and family to physically see her as a threat to their future as a family.

3-She wanted revenge by physically attacking him.

JMO [/*]

Any one of those three options are possible and can't be dismissed at this time. JMO . :patriot:

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


We have absolutely no idea what erupted once she got there that caused this horrific crime.

And it does not mean at the time she decided to come there she was fearful of him at all.

I am sure she did fear him in the end if she had time to even react but that does not mean she was fearful of him in the beginning. Sutherland said prior contact had been made before she came there.

So imo, she knew he was there and she knew he was alone.

Now imo I don't think it stayed that way.........I think they were alone then there was three. JMO tho.

imoo [/*]

Yes, me too OCEAN, and then there were three. JMO based on reading for months. :(

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Any one of those three options are possible and can't be dismissed at this time. JMO . :patriot: [/*]

I don't think there is much related to this case that can be dismissed until we learn more, IMO.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by nelkirk


ITA

I hadn't thought of it before but after reading your post...

I can actually think of reasons why a woman who truly believed that she had been raped would go to her alleged rapists home...

1-She wanted to flaunt the power she felt she had over him because she was ruining his life with the allegations.

2-She wanted his wife and family to physically see her as a threat to their future as a family.

3-She wanted revenge by physically attacking him.

JMO [/*]

IMO, 1 and 2 could have been accomplished had Maria attended the Christmas party - then Cesar would have been within 1000 feet of her and I'm guessing escorted from the premises or asked to leave.

3, I'm not so sure about. But that might require knowledge that the person is of no physical threat to you in return, or that there wouldn't be anybody around to witness the visit, or that the person wouldn't see you in the yard and call the police to report you for trespassing. IMO we have these elements, however, I'm not sure that physical revenge was on her mind that day.

[Squawk Box]

RS said they think there was contact between Maria and Cesar on December 14th prior to her arrival there. She may have let her guard down based on what he said to her at that time. We will never know why she was there at his house.

She was murdered there and based on the autopsy report regarding her not having any clothes on from the waist down, I believe she was raped again by Cesar before he murdered her.

That could have been the reason he murdered her.

All JMO

[marinewife5]

Originally posted by Squawk Box
RS said they think there was contact between Maria and Cesar on December 14th prior to her arrival there. She may have let her guard down based on what he said to her at that time. We will never know why she was there at his house.

She was murdered there and based on the autopsy report regarding her not having any clothes on from the waist down, I believe she was raped again by Cesar before he murdered her.

That could have been the reason he murdered her.

All JMO [/*]

I still cannot see in the autopsy report where it states she had not clothes on from the waist down, but i'll respect your opinion there. but i just have to know, how would that lead to evidence of rape? jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

Well many people think they continued their affair and she was trying to get out of the allegations she made when mad at finding out he was married. Some even think they were sneaking off during her UA's and meeting up off base thus her not fearing anything.

They think they were still having a consensual sexual relationship and that his wife came in right as they were preparing to get intimate and KILLED HER herself.

They think he agreed to go on the run and let his wife have the get out of jail papers for LE thinking someday they would hook up again.

But you never know. There could be another reason for her to have nothing on from the waist down such as the idea she might have gone into labor and her water broke. That's quite possible too.


Several different theories out there. :eek:

We know they had a consensual relationship, there are only allegations of rape that could never yield a charge, and Maria was the one possibly facing a discharge as confirmed by NCIS.

That alone raises my hairs let alone all her family has told us.

:patriot: JMO.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by nelkirk


I can supply the cake..who wants to bring the punch?

There seems to be a certain segment of society that just does not believe in someone accepting the Responsibility for the consequences of their own actions.... [/*]

That is exactly what I am referring to. Since when don't we have any personal responsibility for our actions? Unbelievable IMO. :patriot:

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by nelkirk


I can supply the cake..who wants to bring the punch?

There seems to be a certain segment of society that just does not believe in someone accepting the Responsibility for the consequences of their own actions.... [/*]

IMO, we don't have enough information to say ML somehow contributed to the situation that eventually led to her murder. We have a number of people theorizing various ways that she might have, but it is just that, IMO - theory, not fact.

[sunstar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


<respectfully snipped>

No, my ex couldn't have gotten me for anything. I stayed in my own environment and never had any intentions of invading his space or coming near him. Coming to his home where I knew he would be alone was something that was never going to happen and not in the realm of possibilities.

In this case I believe prior contact had been made between the both of them, off and on, before she decided to come over that day.

imoo [/*]
Good afternoon :seeya: And I agree completely that they'd been in contact with each other, maybe for a while or maybe just when she decided she was going to leave and she wanted to tell him that. It's just something we don't know, but my feeling is they made plans for her together including buying the bus ticket. Maybe it was his idea to have her leave town and go to Texas, and she changed her mind after she'd told him she was leaving and that's what led to her death.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES
Well many people think they continued their affair and she was trying to get out of the allegations she made when mad at finding out he was married. Some even think they were sneaking off during her UA's and meeting up off base thus her not fearing anything.

(respectfully snipped)
[/*]

What people think is one thing. What we know based on the facts of this case (few and far between as they are!) is that there was no contact between ML and CL between the rape allegation and Dec 14. Captain Sutherland said there was contact before ML somehow ended up in CL's house. We don't know who initiated that contact. For all we know, that "contact" could have been CL showing up at her house and abducting her.

Even Mrs. Renner said she didn't know if they saw each other again, but that she thought they had at least talked (which, IMO, implies a phone conversation - but that is just a guess on my part - but it is the only way I know of that you can talk without physically seeing the person).

JMO

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by nelkirk


I didn't reference ML...I [/*]

Okay, sorry then... I thought that you were referring to her actions.

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by nelkirk


Why bother...CAL lived in Onslow county and he drove to and from the base daily...all the Sherriff had to do was to wait for him to enter Onslow county and snap him up...the military wouldn't have said a word... [/*]
On what grounds would Onslow County 'snap' him up?

Maria had not filed a report with them, but rather the MC where the alleged crime occurred.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by nelkirk


When it happened to me only self preservation kept me from hunting him down and doing him physical harm... [/*]


I don't believe that at 8 months pregnant she would have gone over there to harm him.
jmo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by IvySterling

On what grounds would Onslow County 'snap' him up?

Maria had not filed a report with them, but rather the MC where the alleged crime occurred. [/*]

I think the discussion was on the MPR, not the rape allegation.

OCSD could have attempted to talk to CAL once he came off base on his way to Meadow Trail. According to one of the SW's Dubois states he talked to both CL's and determined they both lived at 103 Meadow Trail. So why wasn't there an attempt made then to ask CAL to come on down to the OCSD for a talk?

Just adding this:

IIRC, I do believe CAL's name was given to the OCSD investigator sometime in December. IIRC there were repeated attempts to contact CWO Wright (I believe that's his rank) by OCSD but no calls were returned (unit level).

After the repeated attempts to talk to Wright and no return calls, the investigator then went to SB.

jmo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by marinewife5


I still cannot see in the autopsy report where it states she had not clothes on from the waist down, but i'll respect your opinion there. but i just have to know, how would that lead to evidence of rape? jmo [/*]
The autopsy report only mentioned the sports bra (size medium) and a green knit shirt. I'm thinking instead of him sexually assaulting her right before she was killed that maybe she might have gone into labor. :shrug:

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by sunstar

The autopsy report only mentioned the sports bra (size medium) and a green knit shirt. I'm thinking instead of him sexually assaulting her right before she was killed that maybe she might have gone into labor. :shrug: [/*]

I doubt that very seriously. She would have kept her clothes on to go to the hospital. There is no way she would have delivered immediately. Just saying..........

Even if her water broke she would not have removed her clothes. She would have gone to the hospital wet but not naked.

IMO

[sunstar]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I doubt that very seriously. She would have kept her clothes on to go to the hospital. There is no way she would have delivered immediately. Just saying..........

Even if her water broke she would not have removed her clothes. She would have gone to the hospital wet but not naked.

IMO [/*]
Since it also said she was wrapped in a comforter, my naive thinking was that she removed her wet clothing, he told her he'd take her to the hospital and instead killed her knowing that once the baby was born it would be a double murder. What was interesting to me in the report was the baby clothing. I wonder where that came from?

[daniel green]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


I hope all is okay now. Good to see you back. It's really been slow on here. [/*]

Thx, SS.

Yes, just a bit of a health scare with my daughter but things looking better now.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by Babes
How come we arent hearing anything from Blanca , Elvira or Salvador Laurean? [/*]

I'm guessing they have nothing to say to us.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by nelkirk


Do we have any physical evidence that CSL actually confronted her?

Or is this incident coming from ML's mother in her 3 page email? [/*]

The alleged confrontation that was not reported...

[Pag Boi]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


What people think is one thing. What we know based on the facts of this case (few and far between as they are!) is that there was no contact between ML and CL between the rape allegation and Dec 14. Captain Sutherland said there was contact before ML somehow ended up in CL's house. We don't know who initiated that contact. For all we know, that "contact" could have been CL showing up at her house and abducting her.

Even Mrs. Renner said she didn't know if they saw each other again, but that she thought they had at least talked (which, IMO, implies a phone conversation - but that is just a guess on my part - but it is the only way I know of that you can talk without physically seeing the person).

JMO [/*]

How do you "know" there was no contact btwn "......" TIA


We don't know sheet. But you see to be 'in the know' a la cam n k at that site u keep bringing back up. Do you have insider info? If you do, report it directly to LE. Don't use it to gain cyberfriends today that will turn on you tomorrow. I am curious but understand if you decline to confirm/deny your id

What people think is always one thing. What do YOU think? What don't you understand about the RO? Even if they talked, it was in violation of the MRO. Even if Maria initiated it. IOW, IF ML contacted CL, how scared of him could she be?

[caejde]

Just rechecked the MPO and there is a place on there that says if the protected person initiates any contact, the commanding officer is to be contacted immediately.

[Pag Boi]

Originally posted by caejde
Just rechecked the MPO and there is a place on there that says if the protected person initiates any contact, the commanding officer is to be contacted immediately. [/*]

That is correct. However IF CL replies to the contact, HE is in violation. Should ML call/email/greet him, he is supposed to walk away. Call his CO/NCIS as I understand the situation. I think they did have contact prior to 12/14. I was replying to GaelicPeas post that "we don't know......"


She stated that it could be as simple as they talked on the phone prior to 12/14. IMO there is NOTHING simple about what she believes. If there was any contact and CL responded to it, the MRO was violated. Not stating, as GP didk, they did or did not have contact btwn May & Dec. Just saying that IF they did, it was a violatio MOO

[Pag Boi]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


I doubt that very seriously. She would have kept her clothes on to go to the hospital. There is no way she would have delivered immediately. Just saying..........

Even if her water broke she would not have removed her clothes. She would have gone to the hospital wet but not naked.

IMO [/*]

Maybe the baby didn't want to wait and CL freaked? That led to the murder....

You have no idea what Maria would have done had she gone into labor. :rolleyes:

[daniel green]

Originally posted by IvySterling

Thank you sunstar, Candy was good enough to tell us earlier in here.

Is this the photo you're referring to that was shown?
http://i32.tinypic.com/5p63q.jpg [/*]

Oh for the love of pete.

Is that a pic that AMW did or Fox?

How about they make some up of him with a clown nose or with a red mohawk? :rolleyes:

That looks like something done by one of our former posters who loved to that sort of thing.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by Pag Boi


That is correct. However IF CL replies to the contact, HE is in violation. Should ML call/email/greet him, he is supposed to walk away. Call his CO/NCIS as I understand the situation. I think they did have contact prior to 12/14. I was replying to GaelicPeas post that "we don't know......"


She stated that it could be as simple as they talked on the phone prior to 12/14. IMO there is NOTHING simple about what she believes. If there was any contact and CL responded to it, the MRO was violated. Not stating, as GP didk, they did or did not have contact btwn May & Dec. Just saying that IF they did, it was a violatio MOO [/*]


RS said there was contact on Dec 14th prior to Maria's arrival at Cesar's. So they were both in violation of the MPO. Is that what you are saying?

jmo

[Pag Boi]

Originally posted by Squawk Box



I don't believe that at 8 months pregnant she would have gone over there to harm him.
jmo [/*]


I don't believe that at any time, a woman scared to death of her rapist, would go over there at all.

So why did she?

[Pag Boi]

Originally posted by Squawk Box



RS said there was contact on Dec 14th prior to Maria's arrival at Cesar's. So they were both in violation of the MPO. Is that what you are saying?

jmo [/*]

NOt at all.

Are you saying 2 wrongs make a right?

[sunstar]

Originally posted by daniel green


Oh for the love of pete.

Is that a pic that AMW did or Fox?

How about they make some up of him with a clown nose or with a red mohawk? :rolleyes:

That looks like something done by one of our former posters who loved to that sort of thing. [/*]
It came from the FBI. :D

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by sunstar

Since it also said she was wrapped in a comforter, my naive thinking was that she removed her wet clothing, he told her he'd take her to the hospital and instead killed her knowing that once the baby was born it would be a double murder. What was interesting to me in the report was the baby clothing. I wonder where that came from? [/*]

Could have happened that way, but it was to early for Maria to go into labor. imo

As far as the baby clothes, I was thinking at one time it could have been a gift from Cesar to the baby and part of the way he lured her there along with let's be friends since you're leaving town anyway.

JMO

[daniel green]

Originally posted by strick10


snipped

is why aren't the Mexican LE grabbing him or why hasn't someone turned him in. Fustrating. Let's hope tonights show will make a difference. [/*]

1)Because Mexican police is not like ours, that there are general data banks, and national databanks.

2) Because they have no idea where he is

3) Because, frankly, they probly don't care. Mexican police has enough problems to deal with.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by sunstar

It came from the FBI. :D [/*]

We are in a lot worse trouble than I thought if that is, indeed, from the FBI.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by Pag Boi


NOt at all.

Are you saying 2 wrongs make a right? [/*]

No, not at all.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by Pag Boi



I don't believe that at any time, a woman scared to death of her rapist, would go over there at all.

So why did she? [/*]

:shrug: Don't know if she did go there on her own.

[sunstar]

Originally posted by Squawk Box



As far as the baby clothes, I was thinking at one time it could have been a gift from Cesar to the baby and part of the way he lured her there along with let's be friends since you're leaving town anyway.

JMO [/*]
That's about the only thing that makes sense why the baby clothes would be buried with her. Did we ever hear what happened to her other things she had removed from Durham's house? Interesting too was the autopsy report said she had a green shirt on but the ATM video showed her in a big sweatshirt.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by Pag Boi



I don't believe that at any time, a woman scared to death of her rapist, would go over there at all.

So why did she? [/*]

Hey Pag.

Of course not. No woman goes to visit her rapist.

And the whole idea of cheapening the memory of ML, may she RIP, with how she mighta been "lured" with a baby outfit in a plastic bag is just sad to me. :(

[sunstar]

Originally posted by daniel green


We are in a lot worse trouble than I thought if that is, indeed, from the FBI. [/*]
I guess we are! :D

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1025313.html

[daniel green]

Originally posted by sunstar

That's about the only thing that makes sense why the baby clothes would be buried with her. Did we ever hear what happened to her other things she had removed from Durham's house? Interesting too was the autopsy report said she had a green shirt on but the ATM video showed her in a big sweatshirt. [/*]

The autopsy report in no way says she had on a green shirt or that she had on any clothes.

However, as that has been brought up about 2KX, it is probly useless to try to clear that up yet again.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by sunstar

I guess we are! :D

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1025313.html [/*]

We are the, indeed, in a world of trouble.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by sunstar

That's about the only thing that makes sense why the baby clothes would be buried with her. Did we ever hear what happened to her other things she had removed from Durham's house? Interesting too was the autopsy report said she had a green shirt on but the ATM video showed her in a big sweatshirt. [/*]

Probably in her car. When the police impounded the car, they got everything that was in the car.
There were some suitcases in the trunk. The only thing we know for sure that was impounded from the car was her copy of the MPO. No list of items has been released.

JMO

[daniel green]

Originally posted by gobucks


Literally means stawberry. They're upper middle class Mexicans. They're young, hip with some money to spend. [/*]

Young Mexican men in the cities like Mexico City and other big cities do not dress like we see folks dress in the border towns. Or act like them.

[sexxytazz]

Originally posted by daniel green


The autopsy report in no way says she had on a green shirt or that she had on any clothes.

However, as that has been brought up about 2KX, it is probly useless to try to clear that up yet again. [/*]


The sheet is removed to reveal fragments of charred clothing on top of a charred and decomposed body. The clothing
consist of a sports bra, medium size, and a green knit shirt. This clothing is sealed in nylon bags for accelerant analysis.
The body is also wrapped in a partially charred comforter.

http://www.jdnews.com/attachments/jxqt6p-lauterbachautopsy1.pdf

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Squawk Box



RS said there was contact on Dec 14th prior to Maria's arrival at Cesar's. So they were both in violation of the MPO. Is that what you are saying?

jmo [/*]

Keep in mind, SB, that RS did not specifically say contact THAT day. Below is his answer to the question sent to him.

Remember there was a big discussion on this point. Some on here felt that that indicated contact (and possibly continuing contact) prior to the 14th.

It's up to interpretation.

From email:
5) Is there any evidence that shows contact between Laurean and Maria prior to Maria's arrival at the Laurean home? (I'm sure you can't answer this directly but the posters would just like a yes or no answer) Yes

[daniel green]

Originally posted by strick10


That's what NCIS rep (Cicarelli sp) said that there were other UA's and that her command had accounts of non-truths IRRC. [/*]

That's very, very interesting and consistent with what her mother said.

And of course that would shade their thinking that she had just gone off--just like her mother thought.

[sunstar]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


Probably in her car. When the police impounded the car, they got everything that was in the car.
There were some suitcases in the trunk. The only thing we know for sure that was impounded from the car was her copy of the MPO. No list of items
has been released.

JMO [/*]
Thanks :) I thought that might be it but I also considered he might have disposed of everything.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Keep in mind, SB, that RS did not specifically say contact THAT day. Below is his answer to the question sent to him.

Remember there was a big discussion on this point. Some on here felt that that indicated contact (and possibly continuing contact) prior to the 14th.

It's up to interpretation.

From email:
5) Is there any evidence that shows contact between Laurean and Maria prior to Maria's arrival at the Laurean home? (I'm sure you can't answer this directly but the posters would just like a yes or no answer) Yes [/*]

The email to womanwithout from RS said specifically the contact was on the 14th. That email narrowed the date down. jmo

[daniel green]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


Poofy, that's exactly what it looks like! I wasn't really looking at the head hair----I was looking at the wooly bully beard, LOL. [/*]

Do you remember those things we had as kids? A bald guy and you would get a magnetic pencil and move the metal fragments around to create hair, beards, etc?

That's what that ridiculous photo looked like.

[strick10]

Originally posted by daniel green


1)Because Mexican police is not like ours, that there are general data banks, and national databanks.

2) Because they have no idea where he is

3) Because, frankly, they probly don't care. Mexican police has enough problems to deal with. [/*]

:seeya: Yes DG. I agree. I was being sarcastic.....

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by nelkirk
An autopsy records that which is seen by the observer, so we read about various bags of evidence as well as physical evidence that was found with the body. We also read about the condition of the body, COD etc.

No conclusions were drawn by the observer as to the evidence, he just stated what pieces of evidence were in the body bag when it was opened to be viewed.

No conclusions were drawn by the medical examiner as to any evidence seen or evidence unseen.

His sumary and interpretation has nothing to do with physical evidence found in the body bag except for the bodies themselves.

And he summarizes:
death is most likely....
incised wound appears to be real (not a result of charring) and may have occurred after death
The fetus may have been

Only observations, no conclusions drawn...just the facts stated

If the ME didn't draw any conclusions from his observations of the things he saw, I really question posters with little or no experience drawing conclusions without ever having observed the contents of the body bag at all.

Just like a taffy pull...it's a S T R E T C H.... [/*]

There were no clothes from the waist down. The only clothes were a bra and shirt. jmo

[daniel green]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
I never get to see AMW but tonight actually saw Maria's murder profiled on AMW. I hope it generates some leads. I really hope that they do have some kind of local lead; an area they are concentrating on to find CL.
He must be found and brought to justice. I think if cornered he would kill himself tho; he is no marine, not in his heart. In his heart he is cold, calculating and his flight leads me to believe he has no intention of spending the rest of his days in a Fed Pen on Death Row.
CT [/*]

He has not been charged with a federal crime.

There is no death penalty on the table.

How do you know he is cold and calculating?

He is, in fact, a marine.

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by nelkirk


Do emails qualify as support in a discussion? [/*]

RS said they had contact on Dec 14th before Maria arrived at Cesar's. jmo

[daniel green]

Originally posted by strick10


:seeya: Yes DG. I agree. I was being sarcastic..... [/*]

I know!

And hello, Strick!

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


The email to womanwithout from RS said specifically the contact was on the 14th. That email narrowed the date down. jmo [/*]

I vaguely recall that nic.......can you direct me to that post, where the reply is shown? TIA.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by daniel green


Do you remember those things we had as kids? A bald guy and you would get a magnetic pencil and move the metal fragments around to create hair, beards, etc?

That's what that ridiculous photo looked like. [/*]

Somebody already mentioned that last night. But not all of us want to admit we're old enough to remember. :lol: But yeh that is exactly what it looks like!

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


I vaguely recall that nic.......can you direct me to that post, where the reply is shown? TIA. [/*]

No it was removed after complaints. The actual email from RS was posted.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Congressman Turner writes: When LCpl Lauterbach did not report for duty on Monday, Dec. 17, 2007 , why, in view of the pending rape claim against a fellow Marine, was no attempt made to search for her?

IIRC, wasn't it reported the MC did go to DD's home and call Maria's phone on 12/17/07? Is he trying to say the MC made no attempt at all?

Link: http://www.nbc17.com/midatlantic/ncn/news.apx.-content-articles-NCN-2008-03-11-0020.html#s [/*]

I do believe he is trying to say that, Nuttin.

And how stupid of him, really. Since the facts are that they called her and went to the house to look for her.

[sunstar]

Originally posted by Squawk Box


RS said they had contact on Dec 14th before Maria arrived at Cesar's. jmo [/*]
Maybe cell phone records?

[daniel green]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Somebody already mentioned that last night. But not all of us want to admit we're old enough to remember. :lol: But yeh that is exactly what it looks like! [/*]

Sorry! I am not finished with the thread.

We don't have to admit to being old. They still sell them in small sizes for take home goody bags---at Party City and Target.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
snipped

I still believe the marine corp dropped the ball on this, she would be alive and CL would be in custody had they not "expected" he just turn himself in for an interrogation. CT [/*]

How do you figure?

[Squawk Box]

Originally posted by sunstar

Maybe cell phone records? [/*]

Could be but he wouldn't say how he knew.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by nelkirk


The investigation into the rape allegations is closed...they have not made their findings public. [/*]

Interesting.


Thank you, Nel.

[strick10]

Originally posted by daniel green


How do you figure? [/*]

The crystal balls the MC has should've shown them the outcome. :D

[daniel green]

Originally posted by gobucks


How hard and fast the hunted runs depends on the the degree to which he is hunted. The free can be accessable in many forms. The meadows of Jamestown field listens to earlier days even if it is only 15 days. The sand and the dust holds the key. Posted by The Cat [/*]

You skipped the sentence about the peaches and the locust.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by strick10


The crystal balls the MC has should've shown them the outcome. :D [/*]


hahahahahaha

That has to be it.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by Charlotte
snipped

It's all Maria's own fault (and that of her mother and other family) that CL is charged with her murder, from what I can gather from some posts here.

[/*]

Link to even one such post here.

Oh, lessee. You cannot. Because no such thing has ever been posted here and nobody on this board thinks that.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

[daniel green]

Originally posted by marinewife5

what did the mc have to hold him on? or the ocsd for that matter? tia [/*]

Oh, make something up!

You know, something for which they can be blamed for NOT holding him.

This is just so silly.

They had nothing on which to hold him and they didn't.

Period.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by nelkirk


He's up for re-election and has a history of making a donkey of himself... [/*]

Yeah, he sure does. He has a history of being pretty much of an idiot, is what I see.

[daniel green]

Originally posted by marinewife5


it's a cryin' shame they let him have his right to remain silent and right to an attorney too. where's a rubber hose when you need one? iirc, they did question him, and that was his response. should they have detained him for exercising his rights? jmo [/*]

Shudder.

It such a shame we have those rights.'

Blame the marines, LE, all military and the country for not chucking CL's constitutinal rights! :flamemad:

[daniel green]

Originally posted by nelkirk


And you were there when the body bag was opened and saw that this was true...

snippe[/*]

:cool:

[JanDoe]

Does anyone know if the Laurean house is vacant?

[strick10]

So which is it, the 14th or 15th? Seems like whomever has access to Marias myspace believes it's the 15th as indicated in her caption.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=172096514

[strick10]

Originally posted by JanDoe
Does anyone know if the Laurean house is vacant? [/*]

It is my understanding that it is. Some posters have been by there and reported that it was vacant IIRC.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by daniel green


Do you remember those things we had as kids? A bald guy and you would get a magnetic pencil and move the metal fragments around to create hair, beards, etc?

That's what that ridiculous photo looked like. [/*]

Actually the one they showed on AMW last night looked pretty good. Thinner beard, goatee type thing and a little longer hair.

Didn't look like Billy Mays at all.

:D

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by Squawk Box
RS said they think there was contact between Maria and Cesar on December 14th prior to her arrival there. She may have let her guard down based on what he said to her at that time. We will never know why she was there at his house.

She was murdered there and based on the autopsy report regarding her not having any clothes on from the waist down, I believe she was raped again by Cesar before he murdered her.

That could have been the reason he murdered her.

All JMO [/*]
what kind of contact... was it Cesar calling Maria to harass her? I am not sure any info on this other than contact had been made... People can read all kinds of things into this one statement..

[sexxytazz]

Anybody have any theories on how the babies hand was cut off versus burned off?

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by sexxytazz
Anybody have any theories on how the babies hand was cut off versus burned off? [/*]

has it been determined that the hand was cut off?

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by Howiefan

what kind of contact... was it Cesar calling Maria to harass her? I am not sure any info on this other than contact had been made... People can read all kinds of things into this one statement.. [/*]

Oh, and they will ... :D

[sexxytazz]

Originally posted by JanDoe


has it been determined that the hand was cut off? [/*]

Not sure if it has been confirmed. But Sheriff Brown has stated twice it was cut and not burned.

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by sexxytazz


Not sure if it has been confirmed. But Sheriff Brown has stated twice it was cut and not burned. [/*]

I have never heard that before.......adds to the twists
and turns of the case.....

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by sexxytazz


Not sure if it has been confirmed. But Sheriff Brown has stated twice it was cut and not burned. [/*]

:confused:

[daniel green]

There is nothing on the autopsy report about the hand being cut off.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by JanDoe


I have never heard that before.......adds to the twists
and turns of the case..... [/*]

He said that on the AMW show last night...

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by nelkirk


And you were there when the body bag was opened and saw that this was true...

Otherwise you are drawing conclusions where there are no facts to support them.

The ME only lists what he observes he is smart enough not to guess at the identity of anything that might be present but unrecognizable. He takes a sample and leaves the identification to the forensic teams in the lab.



He identifies what is in the bags, but only gives an observation of what he can actually identify...he does not guess as to what is in the bags.

Then there is the body itself charred almost beyond recognition and yet he only makes a observation of such. He does not state what he does not see and he draws no conclusions about that which he has not observed and therefore has no knowledge.

He only states that which is evident...maybe that is why it is called evidence.

evident:clear to the vision or understanding [/*]

You are such a gem, Nelkirk. When you succinctly lay something out I always understand a certain part of the case even more. Thanks for the clarification.

So there were 8 plastic bags all total found on top of Maria's body. Wasn't her body first sent to the hospital there in Jacksonville and then transferred to the ME office in Chapel Hill?

And you are correct he only will remark on things he can visually identify and all of it will be sent to the forensic experts who have vast knowledge in identifying fabrics, fibers or whatever that may be that are in this poor of condition. It is those experts who will testify about them in the trial imo.

imoo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


He said that on the AMW show last night... [/*]
I know, and now that I've reread the autopsy report again I can't figure out how that's possible unless the baby had been born or CL did something to her body after decomposition. :(

[martha]

Originally posted by strick10
So which is it, the 14th or 15th? Seems like whomever has access to Marias myspace believes it's the 15th as indicated in her caption.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=172096514 [/*]her myspace is priv to me so all i can see is her pic and the date someone signed in4*4*08 wonder who is useing her myspace page? :rose:

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by sunstar

I know, and now that I've reread the autopsy report again I can't figure out how that's possible unless the baby had been born or CL did something to her body after decomposition. :( [/*]

This isn't making any sense at all. I would love to see a transcript of the AMW show. I didn't watch it.

This is different that what we have heard previously.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by sunstar

I know, and now that I've reread the autopsy report again I can't figure out how that's possible unless the baby had been born or CL did something to her body after decomposition. :( [/*]

IIRC, the fetal hand was in a bag, right? Or am I just imagining that? And then there was an article that Nelkirk posted recently about the ME not being able to determine if there were any injuries to the fetus.

JMO

[sexxytazz]

Originally posted by daniel green
There is nothing on the autopsy report about the hand being cut off. [/*]

Your correct, there isn't. Isn't much at all in the report about the baby really.

Can everybody plz do a pm sweep? Thanks.

[strick10]

Originally posted by martha
her myspace is priv to me so all i can see is her pic and the date someone signed in4*4*08 wonder who is useing her myspace page? :rose: [/*]

Her myspace is private to all that are not on her friends list. All I see is her pic, the last sign in date and her caption which indicates that she left this earth on the 15th. It is my understanding that her sister has access to Marias myspace. Don't have a link to prove that so I'll just say IMO.

[sexxytazz]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


He said that on the AMW show last night... [/*]

Thank you. Please correct me if I state this incorrect then.

Paraphased~ The babies hand, you could see where it was cut off, not burned but cut...looked like a little glove.

Is that close to what he said?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sexxytazz


Not sure if it has been confirmed. But Sheriff Brown has stated twice it was cut and not burned. [/*]

Didn't the ME state they could not determine any injuries to the baby?

If they have his little hand then they could tell if it had been cutoff.

I think what SB meant it looked like it had been cutoff but it actually probably separated from the wrist and arm and fell off due to the vast decomposition and charring. JMO tho.


imoo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


IIRC, the fetal hand was in a bag, right? Or am I just imagining that? And then there was an article that Nelkirk posted recently about the ME not being able to determine if there were any injuries to the fetus.

JMO [/*]
From the report, Bag 5 contained a fetal hand and it also said "it is not possible to assign a gender nor to evaluate injuries".

[Lynn Gweeny]

:seeya: Afternoon/Evening everyone. Haven't had a chance to read back yet, but I just saw Savannah's post above about the AMW show. This is my unofficial transcript:

Cesar Laurean Named To AMW Dirty Dozen List ~ April 5, 2008

John Walsh: ….. a case that has shocked this country, the murder of a U.S. Marine, as well as her unborn child.

A murder allegedly committed by another Marine. Now, after making a mockery of the famous slogan, The Few and the Proud, let’s tag this low life with the distinction of being a newest member of my Dirty Dozen. Angeline Hartmann has the latest developments in the search for Cesar Laurean.

Angeline Hartmann: It began on December 17th, 2007, in Jacksonville, North Carolina, home of the Marine base, Camp Lejeune. LCpl. Maria Lauterbach, who was 8 months pregnant, had seemingly disappeared. The only trace of Maria was a note she left behind.

Paul Ciccarelli: The note stated that she was tired of the Marine Corps, she was leaving, and she just apologized for any inconvenience that she caused the roommate.

Angeline Hartmann: Because of that note, you said it was possible that she took off on her own.

Paul Ciccarelli: We thought she took off on her own because her previous history of some unauthorized absences and some credibility issues that were addressed by Command.

Angeline Hartmann: Investigators here at Camp Lejeune knew Maria was dealing with a lot. Not only was she getting close to her due date, this was not a planned pregnancy. Months earlier, she reported she had been raped. She said it happened here on base, her rapist was a fellow Marine, and he could be the father of her unborn child.

But, since Maria lived off base in Jacksonville, the case belonged to local authorities at the Onslow County Sheriff’s Office.

A month after her disappearance, they found Maria’s car at a local bus station. Inside was a restraining order against the man accused of raping her, fellow Marine, Cesar Laurean. Laurean was married, with a baby girl.

Sheriff Brown: Officers made all attempts to have Laurean come and talk with them at the Sheriff’s Office. He never came.

Angeline Hartmann: But, then, a major break. Laurean’s wife contacted investigators, telling them, the Marine had taken off in the middle of the night, leaving behind a letter. In his letter, Laurean claimed Maria slit her own throat in front of him, that he panicked, and buried her in the woods. But, when cops spotted an area in his back yard with fresh dirt, they started digging.

Sheriff Brown (on video): Mrs. Lauterbach IS dead and has been buried here in Onslow County.

Angeline Hartmann: Investigators found Maria’s remains buried about a foot deep, charred. It was a horrific sight, especially what was left of Maria’s unborn child, a baby boy.

Sheriff Brown: I would say, I wish I hadn’t seen it, but I did see it. It was a child’s hand. It was perfect, I mean, it looked like a real tiny glove, like a real tiny glove, with the fingers folded and everything it was, like cut off right here. When I say cut off, it was not like it was burned. It was not like it was, it’s just like it was just there. Uh, not in a good way.

Angeline Hartmann: Walking through the crime scene gave me a chilling perspective on the case, and Laurean. He had been living with the bodies of Maria and her unborn child just fifty feet from his house.

Capt. Sutherland: This is where we recovered the body.

Angeline Hartmann: Does it look like she was killed and then her body was set on fire and then it was covered up?

Capt. Sutherland: Well, it appears that she was placed into the pit postmortem, and that the charring and burning took place after she was placed into the pit.

Angeline Hartmann: What’s your reaction to all of this? Not as an investigator, but just as a person.

Capt. Sutherland: It is kind of eerie because you can still smell the charred smell from the burning and if you look at the shallow grave, and it kinda just puts you closer to the whole human emotion side of this.

Angeline Hartmann: Detective Sutherland’s human emotions were echoed by the hundreds of phone calls received at our hotline the night we aired the case. And these tips validated what cops had suspected, that Laurean, who was born in Mexico and a naturalized American citizen, had fled back to his home town of Guadalajara. Once there, he stopped to visit a cousin.

Juan Antonio Ramos Ramirez (cousin): I was taking care of my customers, when suddently we saw him coming into the Liquor Store. We said hello to each other, he asked about family on both sides, and that was pretty much it. He said, “well, now I’m leaving. I have some friends waiting for me and I’ll be back later”.

Angeline Hartmann: Laurean never returned. The cops think he’s still hiding somewhere in Mexico. This clean-cut Marine may have altered his appearance. He could have longer hair, grown a beard, and have a darker complexion. Laurean also has two distinctive tattoos, a Phoenix rising from flames on his left tricep, and an unidentified tattoo on his right upper arm. If you know where Cesar Armando Laurean is hiding out tonight, call our hotline at 1-800-CRIMETV.

John Walsh: If Laurean is still in Mexico, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s safe. We’ve caught many fugitives there. And the relationship between the U.S. and the Mexican authorities is only getting stronger. Let’s hope they do the right thing and send this alleged mom and baby killer back here to face justice. If you know where Laurean is hiding tonight, do the right thing and make that call.

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by sexxytazz


Thank you. Please correct me if I state this incorrect then.

Paraphased~ The babies hand, you could see where it was cut off, not burned but cut...looked like a little glove.

Is that close to what he said? [/*]

maybe a spade shovel pushed down into the pit causing the cut?
I can't imagine anything else....

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by daniel green


Link to even one such post here.

Oh, lessee. You cannot. Because no such thing has ever been posted here and nobody on this board thinks that.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...... [/*]

Based on months of reading about the case. :patriot:

[strick10]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


This isn't making any sense at all. I would love to see a transcript of the AMW show. I didn't watch it.

This is different that what we have heard previously. [/*]

I may have misunderstood but I believe SB was trying to describe the hand and he said that it looked like it hadn't been burned off but cut off. He didn't specifically state that it had been cut off.

[nuttintodo]

FWIW, Maria's body was so badly charred, I don't think any of us armchair ME's could have determined whether she was nude from the waist down, waist up or completely nude, let alone a board certified medical examiner.

IMO, if the ME could determine if she was indeed nude from the waist down, he would have stated so in the report.

But I am really curious about this---if she had rubber sole shoes on, why was NO rubber found in the pit? Rubber is one of the hardest things to completely burn.

Were the shoes (one found on the stoop and the other in the garage) Maria's?

JMO

[sexxytazz]

Thank you Lynn.

Ocean~ That is a possibility. But wouldn't that leave a noticable difference in the tearing of the skin tissue versus what it would look like cut?

Hope that makes sense.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


This isn't making any sense at all. I would love to see a transcript of the AMW show. I didn't watch it.

This is different that what we have heard previously. [/*]

Savannah, I just went to the AMC site, but couldn't find a link to the video. There is a link to radio - I don't know if the radio says the same thing as the TV show. IIRC, the Laurean segment came on about 35-40 minutes into the show.

[martha]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Didn't the ME state they could not determine any injuries to the baby?

If they have his little hand then they could tell if it had been cutoff.

I think what SB meant it looked like it had been cutoff but it actually probably separated from the wrist and arm and fell off due to the vast decomposition and charring. JMO tho.


imoo [/*] ITA sb did say the baby;s hand was the size of his thumb i did not understand that:rose:

[sunstar]

Thanks so much Lynn Gweeny for the unofficial transcript! :seeya:

[sunstar]

Originally posted by JanDoe


maybe a spade shovel pushed down into the pit causing the cut?
I can't imagine anything else.... [/*]
Good thought ~ maybe when he was putting more dirt over the fire pit.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


I vaguely recall that nic.......can you direct me to that post, where the reply is shown? TIA. [/*]

Did Captain Sutherland confirm that he ever received that email and that was his answer?

I don't remember that. I know his email addy was wrong on something to do with two "ii" is his address.:shrug:

Is WomanWithout still a member here?

tia

[JanDoe]

Did RS ever answer if ML and CL went to the bus station in seperate vehicles?

sorry....I've been gone awhile and never heard if he answered
anymore questions......

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by martha
ITA sb did say the baby;s hand was the size of his thumb i did not understand that:rose: [/*]

That sure is a tiny little hand isn't it Martha.

So sad for little Gabriel but I don't think it was cutoff.......the ME would know that right away just by looking at his hand.

imoo:seeya:

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by sunstar

Good thought ~ maybe when he was putting more dirt over the fire pit. [/*]

I posted once before that maybe he was checking to see if her body was burning - re-digging & checking, then having another fire, then re-digging & checking, then having another fire. It could've have happened then if so.

JMO

(edited to fix typo)

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Did Captain Sutherland confirm that he ever received that email and that was his answer?

I don't remember that. I know his email addy was wrong on something to do with two "ii" is his address.:shrug:

Is WomanWithout still a member here?

tia [/*]

IIRC, Gentle, that was a different email (the one one with the 2 ii's). This one was fairly recent, but it was removed.

JMO

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


That sure is a tiny little hand isn't it Martha.

So sad for little Gabriel but I don't think it was cutoff.......the ME would know that right away just by looking at his hand.

imoo:seeya: [/*]

I agree. And that is also how I read Lynn's unofficial transcript (thanks Lynn!).

[martha]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


That sure is a tiny little hand isn't it Martha.

So sad for little Gabriel but I don't think it was cutoff.......the ME would know that right away just by looking at his hand.

imoo:seeya: [/*] I did not understand when sb said that i thought that was awful small for near a full term baby, I think they would have been able to tell if it was cut off. I don;t think it was cut eather.:rose:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sexxytazz
Thank you Lynn.

Ocean~ That is a possibility. But wouldn't that leave a noticeable difference in the tearing of the skin tissue versus what it would look like cut?

Hope that makes sense. [/*]

I am not sure. I think the very young tender joints began to vastly deteriorate and also the charring of the skin may have burned away or it became so fragile that the hand just became disconnected from the wrist unable to remain attached to the wrist. Maybe when it fell off it fell in a more protective place and that is why the hand was intact.

Its just the experienced ME would know immediately if the hand had been purposefully cutoff. He would certainly mention that in his report but did not.

imoo

[martha]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


I posted once before that maybe he was checking to see if her body was burning - re-digging & checking, then having another fire, then re-digging & checking, then having another fire. It could've have happened then if so.

JMO

(edited to fix typo) [/*] if he was doing this he is even sicker than I thought before. jmoo:rose:

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by martha
I did not understand when sb said that i thought that was awful small for near a full term baby, I think they would have been able to tell if it was cut off. I don;t think it was cut eather.:rose: [/*]

Hard to say, Martha, because SB didn't really say whether he was referring to the curled-up fist or a fully-extended hand. Since the hand was curled-up, I am assuming that that is what he was referring to. The hand would have been bigger if it was uncurled.

JMO

(edited to add - Mary said ML was 8 months pregnant when she disappeared, so the fetus also still had some growing to do)

[daniel green]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


IIRC, the fetal hand was in a bag, right? Or am I just imagining that? And then there was an article that Nelkirk posted recently about the ME not being able to determine if there were any injuries to the fetus.

JMO [/*]

Yes, the fetal hand was in bag 5, just like ML's limbs were in bags.

The ME was not able to determine any injury to the fetus.

There is no way that the hand could have been cut off.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


IIRC, Gentle, that was a different email (the one one with the 2 ii's). This one was fairly recent, but it was removed.

JMO [/*]

Thanks, I guess I never saw the second one.

imoo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


I posted once before that maybe he was checking to see if her body was burning - re-digging & checking, then having another fire, then re-digging & checking, then having another fire. It could've have happened then if so.

JMO

(edited to fix typo) [/*]
I remember that being mentioned in the video where Greta went out in the back yard, that yes, he'd added more dirt.

[strick10]

Question to anyone. The alleged rapes happend on the 27th of Mar 07 and the 10th of Apr 07 right?

[daniel green]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


snipped I know his email addy was wrong on something to do with two "ii" is his address.:shrug:

Is WomanWithout still a member here?

tia [/*]

Yes, that was a weird email addy with the two ii's.

Nope. She got the boot.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Thanks, I guess I never saw the second one.

imoo [/*]

lol - it was removed after a very short time...