Officials question kids at Warren Jeffs retreat

[walton]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3051546

Check out the video.

One of the reasons their raid went on far longer than anyone expected is because children tried to elude capture. As investigators went from building to building, adults moved the children around like a human version of old shell game.

Law enforcement officials say they maintained dialogue with the leader, Merrill Jessop. But as searchers closed in on the temple, 57 members of the FLDS group stood in a circle around the temple grounds.


Hey Texski- do you have that Texan accent like these guys? I can hardly tell in your writing. :D That is ok... People tell me I have an accent as well. But some also tell me that they can pick it up in my writing don't cha know? :D

[Devotion]

Originally posted by VC2
Anderson 360

confidential informant led them to the sex bed in the temple
Sarah (the girl who called) still not found

Men are now being allowed to leave the ranch but not allowed to return

GRRRRRRRRRRR
:flamemad: so any pedo is now walking the streets if he wants.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

uggghhh former FDLS says the SEX BED was used in

front of an audience at times so "god witnessed the

marriage"...... :flamemad: [/*]

WHAT!...and this is known to have been happening on a regular basis in the United States?

SEX BED in front of an audience (people).

....are they saying these young girls ages 12 or 13 yrs. was RAPED in front of an audience in the church by these old 50+ year old men??..jmo

[texski]

yup, reckon i do still have the ole texas talk. like i told my yankee air force husband, you can take the gals out of texas, but you can never take the texas out of the gals.
my hope for these young girls and ladies is that the good people in texas who are taking them to their hearts will instill in them a love for this beautiful country. if i were in texas now, i would willingly take the 30 day course and undergo all the background checks to qualify as a foster
family.
knowing how horribly hot it can be there in the summers, please dont make them wear those long drawers all the time. surely that could be one small step to normal life.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by duncan

I also think LDS is a MAN MADE religion,
my opinon only but I do read the Bible and I can tell you Moses had one wife, her name was Zipporah, Moses was not a polygamist.

Please provide scripture and verse on a woman being equal to a donkey,
and as a christian I do focus more on the New Testament, the Gospel of Jesus the Son of God.

Polygamy is a sin and raping children is SIN and a

criminal act in America. ...... omo [/*]

Raping or having sex with underage children is a criminal act, regardless of how its worded...or where it takes place..

Teachers and Priest are arrested and prosecuted for having sex with even ONE minor.

We arrest people who watch child porn on their computers.
While these sick people are watching a young girl being raped right on the church alter, time and time again....

YET, Our LE and SBI have closed their eyes to these horrible crimes year after year?

WHY? What's taken so long to arrest these men

who are known to have raped/abused, married dozens of young children over the years??
Doesn't the LAW apply to everyone living in the USA?? ....jmo

[wandering]

Originally posted by cleo612


VC2, could you please provide a link for this? This is the first I have heard/read of this. I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, doubt your word, I would just like to see where you found this so that I can read whatever publication from whence it came in full.

Thank you. [/*]That's been reported on all the TV news reports.

[Devotion]

Originally posted by VC2

If they had an informant in there for 4 years,

i do not believe for one minute they didn't know children were regularly being raped and molested.

(or to make it sound nicer for them "young girls being married" :rolleyes: which even the media is using).

It seems to be one of the precepts of this SICK CULT.

This is an outrage!

imo [/*]

An Outrage and Embarrassment to everyone in the US...
WHY are the media keep calling these rapes a marriage?
IF the same thing happened to one of their children would they want it called a "marriage"?

We show on TV the children in Thailand being used in the sex trade and talking about how wrong and sick it is.

all the time our elected officials knowing the same abuse was happening to our children right here in America....while the tax payers supported them and made them RICH..

Ignoring this group of sick perverts and pedophiles because they were slick enough to hide behind 2 words... church and religion...OUTRAGEOUS....jmo

[Shells2]

Originally posted by duncan



I also think LDS is a man made religion, [/*]

LDS IS most definately a man made religion. Joseph Smith made up the religion.

[juliekan]

Originally posted by RachelRose


No, sadly, sex with children isn't a criminal act everywhere.

And in fact, much of our society embraces exactly the lifestyle that was going on in this compound. Hello, has everyone read Genesis in the Christian Bible? It's right there, ordained by our Christian God, and all of our Presidents and Presidential candidates march to church and thump the Bible. These people, this sect in eldorado are LIVING the teachings of Genesis and we're all rending our hair and clothing and wondering where that comes from.

It comes from our Christian Bible.

I'm not condoning raping children. But frankly, I'm absolutely amazed that we as a society embrace what we think is Christianity, and roundly reject this weirdo society that is actually LIVING as the Bible teaches.

Okay, one more thing to shake my head over. And before you blast me, read Genesis. Just read it. And then research how many of our Presidents go to Christian churches every Sunday. Um, all of them actually. [/*]
Has no one heard of the New Testament in the Bible?

[cleo612]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/10/texas.ranch.ap/index.html

Sheriff: Cops had spy inside polygamist sect Story Highlights


NEW: Sheriff says informant fed information for four years

NEW: Men prayed as authorities searched temple at YFZ ranch

NEW: Man ID'd as abusive "spiritual" husband says he doesn't know teen


ELDORADO, Texas (AP) -- When authorities moved to search the large white temple on the polygamist compound in West Texas, about five dozen of the sect's men prayed and cried around the structure, state investigators said Thursday.

Law enforcement officials converge outside the temple walls at the YFZ ranch in West Texas.

1 of 3 Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran also said he had been working with a confidential informant for four years who was feeding him information about life inside the polygamist sect.

Doran declined to say whether the informant was in Texas or other sect compounds in Utah or Arizona. It wasn't until after the search had begun that Doran learned about marriage beds in the temple and the forced marriages of underage girls to older men.

"It was instrumental in teaching me the group's ways," Doran said.

But state authorities defended their decision to leave the sect alone for the four years it had encamped in West Texas. Watch why officials proceeded cautiously »

"We are aware that this group is capable of (sexually abusing young girls)," Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry. I've said that from day one."

Texas Ranger Capt. Barry Caver said some of the 57 men near the wall were on their knees praying. Others sobbed. One resisted officers' attempt to enter the area and was arrested.

When authorities finally gained entrance to the three-story building, no one was inside.

But on the top they found beds allegedly used by husbands after they married underage girls on the top floor of the temple.

He said authorities made the temple the last stop on the weeklong search because "if there was going to be any resistance at all it would be then."

Caver also described the difficulties faced by child welfare officials in finding and removing all 416 children from the compound.

The children "were shuffled around houses as we were searching," he said, noting that as soon as they saw children in one house, they would be quickly ushered to other houses.

Officials have left the compound and still have not identified the 16-year-old girl who called to report she had been beaten and raped by her husband.

"When you're dealing with a culture like this, they're taught from very (early) on that they don't answer questions to the point," Doran said. "And we may very well have her at Child Protective Services. All of that is certainly being sorted out right now."

The discovery of the marriage beds in the temple was revealed Wednesday as troopers completed their search of the grounds of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Texas law prohibits polygamy and the marriage of girls under 16.

Court documents said a number of teen girls at the compound were pregnant, and all the children were removed on the grounds that they were in danger of "emotional, physical, and-or sexual abuse."

Another 139 women left on their own.

On Wednesday, state officials said the women and children were in good overall health but would not comment on pregnancies. About a dozen children appear to have chicken pox but were being separated at the evacuation sites, which include an old historic fort and a convention center here, said Child Protective Services spokesman Chris Van Deusen.

****more info at link

[Details]

Originally posted by Shells2
LDS IS most definately a man made religion. Joseph Smith made up the religion. [/*]Just like every other religion. No Gods have yet come down to earth and burned their bible into the walls of the Grand Canyon - every religion has it's rules from men claiming to have spoken to the gods or have otherwise had some divine experience.

And what happened back in ancient times is not something that people think should happen now - whether it's slavery, wars of conquest, or girls marrying.


This isn't about religion, nor does it show one religion right or wrong. This is just a cult - a group following one insane leader out of fear or self interest. The only thing about this that is religious is the tool used to create compliance, and to provide a smokescreen to a bunch of pedophiles.

[cleo612]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/10/polygamist.towns/index.html

From Gary Tuchman and Amanda Townsend

ALONG THE ARIZONA-UTAH BORDER (CNN) -- A monument stands in a park in the twin cities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona, commemorating the 263 children taken from their families during a predawn polygamy raid in 1953.

This monument near the Utah-Arizona border commemorates the 1953 Short Creek raid.

The raid at Short Creek, as these isolated border communities were known back then, holds an ignoble place in the region's history.

It was a public relations nightmare from the start. Crying children in their bedclothes were yanked from their parents in the dark of a July night.

The backlash drove a governor from office and discouraged officials from taking action against the practice of polygamy for half a century.

It also left a traumatic imprint in the collective mind of a community that has withdrawn from an outside world it views as evil.

Now, more than 800 miles away, history appears to be repeating itself for the descendants of Short Creek. It is deepening their fear, distrust of outsiders and sense of persecution.

This is the heart of FLDS country; the letters stand for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The polygamist sect is headed by imprisoned "prophet" Warren Steed Jeffs and is said to include some 10,000 followers.

Colorado City is also home to Dale Evans Barlow, named in a Texas arrest warrant as the middle aged man who allegedly physically and sexually abused his seventh wife at the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas.

In a series of hushed cell phone calls to a family violence hot line in Texas, she said she was just 15 when she married him. Her calls sparked last week's raid.

FLDS members practice plural marriage, which is against the law in Utah, Arizona and Texas and has been disavowed by the mainstream Mormon church.

Women are taught to "keep sweet" and obey their husbands, who hold their "priesthood," or way into Heaven.

****more info at link

[gxm17]

Originally posted by RachelRose
A really interesting historical perspective on this cult - from the raid in 1953, very similar. All the children and women were rounded up and, with most of them returning voluntarily 2 years later.

I think it's going to happen exactly that way again - with most of the removed returning when they're allowed to.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/10/polygamist.towns/index.html [/*]

The children should not be returned. Given the nature of the abuse, no child is safe. The adult women can return if they want, but until this group changes their "tradition" of child rape, no child should be allowed to be raised in that environment.

JMHO.

[cleo612]

Read the Warrants:

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/crime/0804/yfz.affidavit/yfz.affidavit2a.pdf

(Note: This is a .pdf file and may take a while to load.)

[dicee]

Originally posted by cleo612
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/10/polygamist.towns/index.html

From Gary Tuchman and Amanda Townsend

ALONG THE ARIZONA-UTAH BORDER (CNN) -- A monument stands in a park in the twin cities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona, commemorating the 263 children taken from their families during a predawn polygamy raid in 1953.

This monument near the Utah-Arizona border commemorates the 1953 Short Creek raid.

The raid at Short Creek, as these isolated border communities were known back then, holds an ignoble place in the region's history.

It was a public relations nightmare from the start. Crying children in their bedclothes were yanked from their parents in the dark of a July night.

The backlash drove a governor from office and discouraged officials from taking action against the practice of polygamy for half a century.

It also left a traumatic imprint in the collective mind of a community that has withdrawn from an outside world it views as evil.

Now, more than 800 miles away, history appears to be repeating itself for the descendants of Short Creek. It is deepening their fear, distrust of outsiders and sense of persecution.

This is the heart of FLDS country; the letters stand for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The polygamist sect is headed by imprisoned "prophet" Warren Steed Jeffs and is said to include some 10,000 followers.

Colorado City is also home to Dale Evans Barlow, named in a Texas arrest warrant as the middle aged man who allegedly physically and sexually abused his seventh wife at the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas.

In a series of hushed cell phone calls to a family violence hot line in Texas, she said she was just 15 when she married him. Her calls sparked last week's raid.

FLDS members practice plural marriage, which is against the law in Utah, Arizona and Texas and has been disavowed by the mainstream Mormon church.

Women are taught to "keep sweet" and obey their husbands, who hold their "priesthood," or way into Heaven.

****more info at link [/*]


I don't think we can blame them if this will leave them even more fearful and distrustful of the outside world.We didn't learn from the AZ raid.The TX people are the offspring of the AZ people and probably were told of that raid.Now these kids will tell their kids.

[Details]

Originally posted by dicee
I don't think we can blame them if this will leave them even more fearful and distrustful of the outside world.We didn't learn from the AZ raid.The TX people are the offspring of the AZ people and probably were told of that raid.Now these kids will tell their kids. [/*]So the solution is to leave the girls to be raped, the boys to be used then thrown away?

They did this the best way possible - not middle of the night, but in the daylight. Ready for trouble, but they didn't push. 188 women gratefully chose to leave, along with the hundreds of endangered children who had to be removed. That's the true story here.


I assume the rape bed isn't OK with you - how would you save these children?

[juliekan]

http://www.startribune.com/nation/17484149.html
interview with M. meisner, re: child advocacy

[juliekan]

Probable Cause and Caution...what the LE in Edorado did to not become the next "Waco". Give us a break news stations. I would rather have a lot of live people than storming in and violating peoples constitutional rights before I could make the charges I wanted to make STICK.

[Details]

They did it right - and people are too afraid of Waco, IMO. When someone sets up a compound and procedes to make their own laws, abuse children and women and men, we cannot allow that to stand, period. If they are willing to come peacefully, LE should allow that - and does. If they force a fight, we can't concede and allow the abuse to continue, allow a place where the law does not apply, out of fear of media and second-guessers.

[juliekan]

Thanks Details for a very logical posting that made me feel better too:patriot:

[Freebird]

A week later and still no sign of the girl.

[Freebird]

Now that they've had a taste of the outside world,it would be interesting to hear what these kids think of it.

[Freebird]

Originally posted by RachelRose
A really interesting historical perspective on this cult - from the raid in 1953, very similar. All the children and women were rounded up and, with most of them returning voluntarily 2 years later.

I think it's going to happen exactly that way again - with most of the removed returning when they're allowed to.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/10/polygamist.towns/index.html [/*]

I also think they will go back.Where else will they go?

[GardenGirl]

I do hope we've learned a thing or two about deprogramming in the past 60 years, don't you?
Some may go back, but hopefully we can help them to See The Light quick-like..

[johnielee333]

I dont hold anything against any true mormons. its their right to choose what religion they want. the LDS are the good one's.
they no longer believe in polygamy. they washed their hands of it years & years ago & they do not believe in marrying children off to older adult men.

the FLDS are the rotten one's. they use their religion to suit their evil, sick & twisted needs. their greed to have power.
they are not true mormons. true mormons of the LDS washed their hands of the FLDS. they just use whatever gives them power over the weak. this is sad.

[giddyupalw]

There is one of these compounds in Canada???? I would like to know where... This is just sick!!

[VC2]

WHY ARENT THE MEN IN JAIL UNDER ARREST FOR SUSPICION OF RAPE or conspiring to it ????????

and this comment from the sheriff in the cnn article:
"We are aware that this group is capable of (sexually abusing young girls)," Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry[/*]. I've said that from day one."

UIf they were aware of it, the LEAST they could do was get social services in there and if they refused entry then the cops could accompany.

this is barf barf

I am sick of hearing how great LE is doing when they wont arrest the men, they are free to come and go now, and for four years they sat with their thumbs up their behinds knowing that sexually abusing young girls was going on or likel going on

IMO
(and no one cares including the media it seems. they only talk about polygamy. I dont care if they take 10 wives but they better be of age and not sexually assaulting and abusing children)

[lotty]

And here is the way it goes...(hope this link works.)

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/354/story/377646.html

If Texas does not cross every "T" and dot every "I" this could all go out on it's ear. Then everyone will be screaming! Law enforcement must follow the law.

IMO they are doing their best to do their jobs professionally. It is a monumental task ahead of them. Four hundred children(?) I hope that is correct... is enormous. The amounts of information...or lack thereof and trying to sort this out...I can't begin to imagine. :shrug:

[awareness]

Originally posted by RachelRose
<snip> in Texas, with parental and court approval, a girl can marry legally at the age of 13. <snip> [/*]

I thought I read that Texas raised the age to 16 at least? in 2003? Let me see if I can find that... BRB.

JMO/IMO

[juliekan]

Originally posted by awareness


I thought I read that Texas raised the age to 16 at least? in 2003? Let me see if I can find that... BRB.

JMO/IMO [/*]
You are correct. Watch what you find online...a lot of the info is older, like from 2000.

[awareness]

Here's the article I read:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/131379/page/3

Texas Rep. Harvey Hilderbran of Kerrville, alarmed by reports from Eldorado, the Utah attorney general and sect members who had fled the group, helped push new legislation into law in 2005 that raised the legal age of consent to marry in Texas from 14 to 16, that made it illegal for stepparents to marry their children and made officiates liable for performing illegal wedding ceremonies. "We didn't want to facilitate the things we knew they had been involved in before, including child abuse, sexual abuse, forced marriages, that were clearly detrimental to the safety and welfare of children," Hilderbran tells NEWSWEEK. "It's not in the best interest of a 14-year-old girl to be forced to marry her uncle or stepfather or any other man in this cult, because the men are being rewarded for their obedience with these child brides."

[juliekan]

Originally posted by awareness
Here's the article I read:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/131379/page/3

Texas Rep. Harvey Hilderbran of Kerrville, alarmed by reports from Eldorado, the Utah attorney general and sect members who had fled the group, helped push new legislation into law in 2005 that raised the legal age of consent to marry in Texas from 14 to 16, that made it illegal for stepparents to marry their children and made officiates liable for performing illegal wedding ceremonies. "We didn't want to facilitate the things we knew they had been involved in before, including child abuse, sexual abuse, forced marriages, that were clearly detrimental to the safety and welfare of children," Hilderbran tells NEWSWEEK. "It's not in the best interest of a 14-year-old girl to be forced to marry her uncle or stepfather or any other man in this cult, because the men are being rewarded for their obedience with these child brides." [/*]
I know the age of consent was increased to 16, but I spoke with Hilderbran's office earlier this week and they said the bill he was pushing never even made it onto the calendar because it was late in the session. That bill was also to make it illegal to marry a step-parent.:shrug:

[tisamystery]

Originally posted by hatkie


I also read in Carolyn Jessop's book when they gave birth to their children the other 'wives' had to be there to witness that birth.

These people are sick! [/*]


Yes. She said it was humiliating.

[juliekan]

I just saw a trailer on FOX...LE found documents on birth, marriages, and cyanide.:eek:

[juliekan]

Originally posted by peachdaquari
I wish I could see it, please let us nontexans know whats new ok? [/*]
There's video of Sheriff Doran's news conference from the other day here...
http://www.sltrib.com/news

[juliekan]

KHOU Houston reporting that Dr Bruce Perry that worked with the children from the Branch Dividian Compound and the African girls at Oprah's school that were molested, will be going to work with the children from the Eldorado compound.:)

[awareness]

Originally posted by juliekan
I just saw a trailer on FOX...LE found documents on birth, marriages, and cyanide.:eek: [/*]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24068619/

I wonder what the cyanide documents are about?

JMO/IMO

[Carol25]

Would a girl from this community know the word "rape?" Just curious.

[johnielee333]

Originally posted by VC2
WHY ARENT THE MEN IN JAIL UNDER ARREST FOR SUSPICION OF RAPE or conspiring to it ????????

and this comment from the sheriff in the cnn article:
"We are aware that this group is capable of (sexually abusing young girls)," Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry[/*]. I've said that from day one."

UIf they were aware of it, the LEAST they could do was get social services in there and if they refused entry then the cops could accompany.

this is barf barf

I am sick of hearing how great LE is doing when they wont arrest the men, they are free to come and go now, and for four years they sat with their thumbs up their behinds knowing that sexually abusing young girls was going on or likel going on

IMO
(and no one cares including the media it seems. they only talk about polygamy. I dont care if they take 10 wives but they better be of age and not sexually assaulting and abusing children) [/*]

i agree. i cant believe LE sat by & did nothin for all these years. and yes those men should not be able to leave. they should be arrested.

[Carol25]

Originally posted by johnielee333


i agree. i cant believe LE sat by & did nothin for all these years. and yes those men should not be able to leave. they should be arrested. [/*]
I think they had to be very careful and had to have "just cause." They needed someone who would testify against them. Someone from the inside who would be a witness or a victim.

[VC2]

Originally posted by Carol25

I think they had to be very careful and had to have "just cause." They needed someone who would testify against them. Someone from the inside who would be a witness or a victim. [/*]

IMO they had just cause with the trial of Warren Jeffs. The child victim testified. Testimony showed that she was not the only child that this was done to because it was the way of the fdls which he led.

Enough just cause imo to get dna tests done and any girl who had a baby and was 16 or under should have the babies father thrown in prison.

and MORE than enough cause for social services to go in. They don't need warrants, just a suspicion that there is abuse or neglect.

imo

[Shells2]

Originally posted by giddyupalw
There is one of these compounds in Canada???? I would like to know where... This is just sick!! [/*]

BC has a few places that have major LDS concentrations. Bountiful is huge in LDS population as is the Creston area and the Fraser Valley I have heard.

[datagal]

Originally posted by Shells2


BC has a few places that have major LDS concentrations. Bountiful is huge in LDS population as is the Creston area and the Fraser Valley I have heard. [/*]

Just to be clear, do you mean FLDS? Or do you really mean LDS?? Just wondering because they are not the same thing........

TIA

[awareness]

Im pretty sure they meant FDLS.
Bountiful and Cardston have FDLS as well.

The Bountiful group Im pretty sure is under the UEP (United Effort Plan) FLDS sect that Jeffs now is head of (because there's more than one group of FDLS).

Brian Mitchell, Elizabeth Smart's kidnapper/captor was also FDLS and considered himself the "One mighty and strong" that Joseph Smith Jr said would "Set order in the house of God."

JMO/IMO

[Shells2]

Originally posted by datagal


Just to be clear, do you mean FLDS? Or do you really mean LDS?? Just wondering because they are not the same thing........

TIA [/*]

I honestly group the two together since they both stemmed from Joseph Smith so I have no idea which one.

[datagal]

Originally posted by Shells2


I honestly group the two together since they both stemmed from Joseph Smith so I have no idea which one. [/*]

I just thought I should let you know there is a big difference in case you wanted to consider not spreading misinformation.

[datagal]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Haven't been for quite some time:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/flds.htm

About the FLDS organization:
The FLDS was founded in 1935 by two excommunicated Mormons: John Y. Barlow and Joseph White Musser. Barlow subsequently became the group's first leader. Roulon T Jeffs became the FLDS' second leader. He died in 2002 at the age of 92. His son, Warren Jeffs, (1956 -) then took over. [/*]

Thank you! I know this. It just bothers me when others try to "educate" others with out knowing the facts. Thanks for the link.

[Shells2]

Originally posted by datagal


I just thought I should let you know there is a big difference in case you wanted to consider not spreading misinformation. [/*]
I stated that it was how *I* grouped them -- I did not state it as fact btw.

They are both founded on the teachings of the "prophet" Joseph Smith.

FLDS uses the entire "scripture" and LDS uses some of it.

Don't tell me about misinformation - I have spent many long hours researching this, and talking to people that know this religion inside and out.

[Shells2]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I know what you mean. :seeya: [/*]

You do?

Please elaborate? Are you suggesting as it appears that you are well researched and eductated on the subject of LDS/FLDS? If you are, I would love to hear your views on the subject..

[gxm17]

Originally posted by RachelRose
This case is going to be impossible to win, for the state. Impossible. With no county birth records, how are you going to prove a girl is 15, and not 16, when she could legally consent to marriage with parental approval? Interestingly, in Texas, with parental and court approval, a girl can marry legally at the age of 13. I can't imagine that happens, but it's legal.

How can the state file polygamy charges against men who have several women (none of whom are married with sanction of the state, btw, they have their own private ceremonies) and turn a blind eye to some guy who has 3 baby mommas he's going back and forth with? That's polygamy every bit as much as these FLDS whacks.

Before I sound like I'm in favor of them, I'm not - I just don't think the state has any chance of prosecuting them and letting everyone else get a pass on the same behaviors. [/*]

I'm pretty sure you have to show a birth certificate to get a marriage license. So without a birth certificate, proving that you are old enough to marry, how can there be a legal marriage?

Apparently, in Texas if you are under 16 then you can not be married without a court order.

http://www.weddingvendors.com/marriage-license-laws/united-states/texas/

The age of consent is 17 in Texas. So anyone more than 3 years older than his underage "spiritual wife" is guilty of sexual assault if he has sex with his "bride." What creeps. Calling forced marriage/rape "spiritual" is the essence of evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Texas

[datagal]

Originally posted by Shells2


BC has a few places that have major LDS concentrations. Bountiful is huge in LDS population as is the Creston area and the Fraser Valley I have heard. [/*]






I stated that it was how *I* grouped them -- I did not state it as fact btw.

They are both founded on the teachings of the "prophet" Joseph Smith.

FLDS uses the entire "scripture" and LDS uses some of it.

Don't tell me about misinformation - I have spent many long hours researching this, and talking to people that know this religion inside and out.

-------------------------------------------
I was referring to you answering the above poster about compounds being in Canada.........

Did I misunderstand you?

[Shells2]

Originally posted by datagal


I was referring to you answering the above poster about compounds being in Canada.........

Did I misunderstand you? [/*]

I stated that *I* group them as the same (F/LDS) and (in another post) that there was a large concentration in British Columbia.

[Shells2]

Originally posted by gxm17


I'm pretty sure you have to show a birth certificate to get a marriage license. So without a birth certificate, proving that you are old enough to marry, how can there be a legal marriage?

Apparently, in Texas if you are under 16 then you can not be married without a court order.

http://www.weddingvendors.com/marriage-license-laws/united-states/texas/

The age of consent is 17 in Texas. So anyone more than 3 years older than his underage "spiritual wife" is guilty of sexual assault if he has sex with his "bride." What creeps. Calling forced marriage/rape "spiritual" is the essence of evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Texas [/*]

I don't think the marriages are legal in our sense of the word. They usually have one legal wife, and the rest are not done with legal documentation. The younger ones must have been additional wives where no documentation would be necessary as it would only be valid within thier religion.

[wandering]

Just reported on CNN that another 16 year old in Colorado has called LE, claiming abuse.

[lotty]

How many years for common law marriage in Texas? I thought I read somewhere eight, but I can't remember where I saw it.:confused:

[Details]

Originally posted by wandering
Just reported on CNN that another 16 year old in Colorado has called LE, claiming abuse. [/*]Good - the word is getting out - speak up and the police can help you.


Grouping FLDS and LDS as the same is about like grouping Branch Davidians with Christians, since both claim to follow Jesus and the Bible.

[datagal]

Originally posted by Shells2


I stated that *I* group them as the same (F/LDS) and (in another post) that there was a large concentration in British Columbia. [/*]

Thank you for clarifying! So I didn't misunderstand. Thanks again.

[LLaFren]

Originally posted by hatkie


They had to be extremely careful with Warren Jeffs too. The officials knew all about him and his other compound. Can't remember if it was in Nevada or CA. The FBI contacted Carolyn Jessop [after her escape] and got all the information needed. She was willing to testify.

Officials can't just barge in and take over even knowing what is going on. We have our rights per the constitution.

People were appalled and outraged over Waco, same with Elian [little boy from cuba].

In all the women and children taken away I'm sure that someone [hopefully more than one] will eventually come forward and tell the truth. We have to earn these women's trust.

In no way shape or form do I agree with what is going on in these cults. The abuse to women and children are horrendous, but LE's hands are tied if no one will speak out against these men. I'm sure they're just as frustrated as the rest of us. And yes, until LE can formally charge these men they can and will walk free. [/*]

On this I have to respectfully disagree, I think with the amount of under age girls being pregnant, LE will be able to use DNA testing to determine the paternity of the infants and bring charges that way. If the girls are made wards of the court, and appointed guardians, the guardians can give permission for the testing (I think?) and charges can be brought to the fathers under law (Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't sexual relations illegal in TX if there is more than 3 years in age?).

I know in my home state, all persons convicted of a crime are REQUIRED to provide DNA to the state, is that the same in every state?

While I will defend anyones choice as an adult, I refuse defend those choices if the choice they makes harms another (Robert Heinlein has not lived in vain).

[lotty]

Originally posted by LLaFren


snipped

While I will defend anyones choice as an adult, I refuse defend those choices if the choice they makes harms another (Robert Heinlein has not lived in vain). [/*]

I agree with you...If you are an adult...no harm done... go ahead.
Coercing minors, bad deal. I don't care if it is your religion, this country has a line drawn. If it is against the law, your religion will be in trouble if caught practicing anything against the law. Freedom of religion ...does not mean freedom to do anything you gosh darn please, in the name of religion. :patriot:

[lotty]

I read this article:
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

IMO/JMO Is it just me or is it odd that all of these 3 mothers, if you take their stated ages were over 20 yo when they had their first child?
They were all gone when the raid happened, and they are complaining about "their rights" to see their children?

Now don't get me wrong...could be nothing, could be something.
As much as I have read about "freedom of religion," or "these women and children don't know their rights (which I believe the children do not.)" One could play conspiracy theorist and say "Smells like a plant to me."

Just curious to hear what anyone else thinks. I just find it odd IMO/JMO.:read:

[wandering]

Originally posted by Shells2

I stated that it was how *I* grouped them -- I did not state it as fact btw.

They are both founded on the teachings of the "prophet" Joseph Smith.

FLDS uses the entire "scripture" and LDS uses some of it.

Don't tell me about misinformation - I have spent many long hours researching this, and talking to people that know this religion inside and out. [/*]Yes, I recall that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Da y_Saints

[about_time]

Originally posted by wandering
Yes, I recall that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Da y_Saints [/*]

Yes, and I seem to recall that TEN of his "wives" were teenaged, between 13 and 19 years old.

[datagal]

Originally posted by wandering
Yes, I recall that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Da y_Saints [/*]

"Was" is the operative word here. The fact is the LDS and the FLDS are not the same. The LDS do not live in compounds and instill fear in their members as do the FLDS.

[Shells2]

Originally posted by datagal


"Was" is the operative word here. The fact is the LDS and the FLDS are not the same. The LDS do not live in compounds and instill fear in their members as do the FLDS. [/*]


"was" is not the operative word in this case - joseph smith (the very foundation of both LDS and FLDS) practiced polygamy until the day he died.

The LDS may not live in compounds but they certainly do instill fear in their members. There is a very very ugly side to this religion that many do not see IMO.

[Shells2]

Originally posted by about_time


Yes, and I seem to recall that TEN of his "wives" were teenaged, between 13 and 19 years old. [/*]

Some were young, and some were married to other members of his "church".

Yes.. that's right.. he was "celestially sealed" to women that were the wives of his followers. Some of them were not even aware, others were afraid they were coming between God's will.

The LDS/FLDS very basis is the actions of Joseph Smith so it is not hard to see how things like these compounds & polygamist relationships can happen.

It's just so sad that children get drawn into this.

[Shells2]

Originally posted by jenny_92808


When I was a very young woman, I married a fringe morman. After I was married I was taken to the bishop and put in a chair and there was a group of people around me, including my new husband and inlaws. It was like an intervention thing. They said that I should no longer see my family (mom, dad, brothers, etc.) because they were of the devil. They had a chance to convert, but would not convert to mormanism (they are Christians).

They tried to teach me that the man is a master over a woman. They also believe that only mormans go to heaven. And in heaven there will be many more women then men, so each man will have multiple wives. The woman they marry in the morman temple on earth will be the head wife over her husband's other wives in heaven.

If that wasn't bad enough, they also taught that the morman husband in heaven would have sex with all his multiple wives in heaven so that each wife could give birth to new souls to be born on another planet which then the husband in heaven would become the GOD of that world with his offspring.

By the way.....I swiftly divorced him after I found out about the above.

You may be interested in knowing that this self rightous exhusband of mine, murdered his last wife. She was little and she was suffocated, but he said that she had an accident and fell down the stairs when she was trying to change a light bulb at the top of the stairs. [/*]

Thank you Jenny - and what a horror you must have gone through! I'm so glad you got away. Was your exhusband charged in her murder?

That is exactly what I was talking about - this kind of controlling goes on in mainstream LDS as well and I wish brainwashing was a federal offense!

[Shells2]

Originally posted by Details
Good - the word is getting out - speak up and the police can help you.


Grouping FLDS and LDS as the same is about like grouping Branch Davidians with Christians, since both claim to follow Jesus and the Bible. [/*]

I disagree..

FLDS and LDS both originated from deciet IMO. Both were borne of the "prophet" Joseph Smith and his teachings of poygamy, and his "visions". The fact that LDS caved to outside pressure and changed some of it's practices does not make them completely different from FLDS - the difference only lies in how much of the original 'scripture' of the religion that they practice .

The Branch Dividians are more comprable to the LDS than to the Christian faith as they both originated from men making new prophesies that were in direct contradiction to the Bible that supplemented their faith -- Book of Mormon (LDS - Joseph Smith) & Sheppards Rod ( Victor Houteff) )

[juliekan]

Originally posted by lotty
I read this article:
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

IMO/JMO Is it just me or is it odd that all of these 3 mothers, if you take their stated ages were over 20 yo when they had their first child?
They were all gone when the raid happened, and they are complaining about "their rights" to see their children?

Now don't get me wrong...could be nothing, could be something.
As much as I have read about "freedom of religion," or "these women and children don't know their rights (which I believe the children do not.)" One could play conspiracy theorist and say "Smells like a plant to me."

Just curious to hear what anyone else thinks. I just find it odd IMO/JMO.:read: [/*]
Very strange since I have read articles that the women never ever left the compound :shrug:

[Shells2]

Originally posted by juliekan

Very strange since I have read articles that the women never ever left the compound :shrug: [/*]

IIRC only some of the women left the compound and some remained..

[wandering]

Originally posted by Shells2


IIRC only some of the women left the compound and some remained.. [/*]I recall that 139 women left on their own.

[wandering]

Originally posted by juliekan

Very strange since I have read articles that the women never ever left the compound :shrug: [/*]Here's the link. 139 women left on their own.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

[lotty]

Originally posted by juliekan

Very strange since I have read articles that the women never ever left the compound :shrug: [/*]

I had read that as well. In looking these things up over the past year...some get to leave. Past articles from San Angelo talk about these women in the local Wal-Mart.

I'll see if I can find a link.:beer:

[Carol25]

Originally posted by lotty
I read this article:
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

IMO/JMO Is it just me or is it odd that all of these 3 mothers, if you take their stated ages were over 20 yo when they had their first child?
They were all gone when the raid happened, and they are complaining about "their rights" to see their children?

Now don't get me wrong...could be nothing, could be something.
As much as I have read about "freedom of religion," or "these women and children don't know their rights (which I believe the children do not.)" One could play conspiracy theorist and say "Smells like a plant to me."

Just curious to hear what anyone else thinks. I just find it odd IMO/JMO.:read: [/*]
Well, I agree with you. So call me a conspiracy theorist as well!
And as Julikan said, the women never left the compound, so what were they doing in the "outside world", shopping for the latest clothes?

[Shells2]

Originally posted by Carol25

Well, I agree with you. So call me a conspiracy theorist as well!
And as Julikan said, the women never left the compound, so what were they doing in the "outside world", shopping for the latest clothes? [/*]

From what I have read on these "compounds" it seems like some women are permitted to leave for household reasons (grocery/clothes shopping etc) . Anyone who isn't brainwashed enough would never be allowed to leave. It's one of the "chores" and certain women do this - Women who believe that they are living the correct way.

I remember being in SLC and seeing these women dressed the way the compound women were and they were shopping in walmart with thier baggy gray frocks and matching tights and talking on their cell phones.. It was the wierdest thing.

[Freebird]

Originally posted by lotty
I read this article:
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

IMO/JMO Is it just me or is it odd that all of these 3 mothers, if you take their stated ages were over 20 yo when they had their first child?
They were all gone when the raid happened, and they are complaining about "their rights" to see their children?

Now don't get me wrong...could be nothing, could be something.
As much as I have read about "freedom of religion," or "these women and children don't know their rights (which I believe the children do not.)" One could play conspiracy theorist and say "Smells like a plant to me."

Just curious to hear what anyone else thinks. I just find it odd IMO/JMO.:read: [/*]

I don't find it odd at all.And I don't know why the mothers can't see their kids.What is odd is that the girl has yet to be found and the Rangers didn't arrest Barlow.

[lotty]

Originally posted by Freebird


I don't find it odd at all.And I don't know why the mothers can't see their kids.What is odd is that the girl has yet to be found and the Rangers didn't arrest Barlow. [/*]

The girl not being found bothers me. I'm not sure what to think.
Trying to keep the worst possible thoughts out of my head for now.

Still looking for the story...it's a couple of years old. Now buried under all the current stories.:punch:

[lotty]

Another article.
http://www.krcg.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=120295

If this article is correct about the children being sent to Eldorado without their parents (not sure how many,) and they were the best and most loyal.

Who's left in Pringle, SD, Mancos, CO, Mesquite & Pioche (hope that is correct), NV, and what about Bountiful? Are these the places they send the "bad" ones to?

[juliekan]

Originally posted by lotty


I had read that as well. In looking these things up over the past year...some get to leave. Past articles from San Angelo talk about these women in the local Wal-Mart.

I'll see if I can find a link.:beer: [/*]
Thanks, you actually understood what I wrote...i was talking about while living in the cult at Eldorado, not when the LE came in. During their life at the cult, women were not allowed out into the world. Not talking about after LE came in. Obviously you saw something where they were let out to shop. Makes sense. Love to see whatever you come up with...I hope they got to shop:D

[juliekan]

Originally posted by wandering
Here's the link. 139 women left on their own.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat [/*]
Just to clarify myself for this poster and all the others that responded, I meant women leaving the compound before LE ever came in, for daily shopping, etc. We will look for info on them being able to leave before that.

[Details]

Originally posted by Freebird
I don't find it odd at all.And I don't know why the mothers can't see their kids.What is odd is that the girl has yet to be found and the Rangers didn't arrest Barlow. [/*]To arrest him, the story has to match to some reasonable degree - make sure he's the right person. And the mothers may well have been part of the abuse - not all of them will be victims - first the police need to investigate, then they can put the children with the non-abusive mothers.

No doubt some of the women were fully bought into the religion, pedophilia and abuse.

[juliekan]

Check the new thread here that is all" FLDS read this" ..is a legal notice posted in the Eldorado paper...it is a posting of some of the children that are going in front of the judge. Wow talk about inbred, and I grew up in a small town myself. Hit the site NOW!!!!

[juliekan]

Originally posted by juliekan
Check the new thread here that is all" FLDS read this" ..is a legal notice posted in the Eldorado paper...it is a posting of some of the children that are going in front of the judge. Wow talk about inbred, and I grew up in a small town myself. Hit the site NOW!!!! [/*]
Okay, everyone's asleep...here's the link
www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html

[juliekan]

Originally posted by lotty


I had read that as well. In looking these things up over the past year...some get to leave. Past articles from San Angelo talk about these women in the local Wal-Mart.

I'll see if I can find a link.:beer: [/*]
I still think you're probably right... sounds familiar...but to play:flamemad: advocate, here's all I've found so far:
www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy4
"the women-we never see them. They keep 'em cooped up."

[juliekan]

Originally posted by lotty
Another article.
http://www.krcg.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=120295

If this article is correct about the children being sent to Eldorado without their parents (not sure how many,) and they were the best and most loyal.

Who's left in Pringle, SD, Mancos, CO, Mesquite & Pioche (hope that is correct), NV, and what about Bountiful? Are these the places they send the "bad" ones to? [/*]
On TV last night, they said that all the people from where they took the "best" (children, 6 year old girls) were having to send money to support Eldorado. Yes, they said the people from the other compounds were to know they weren't the best and should work hard to support their betters. (Larry King or Greta?)

[juliekan]

Originally posted by lotty
I read this article:
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

IMO/JMO Is it just me or is it odd that all of these 3 mothers, if you take their stated ages were over 20 yo when they had their first child?
They were all gone when the raid happened, and they are complaining about "their rights" to see their children?

Now don't get me wrong...could be nothing, could be something.
As much as I have read about "freedom of religion," or "these women and children don't know their rights (which I believe the children do not.)" One could play conspiracy theorist and say "Smells like a plant to me."

Just curious to hear what anyone else thinks. I just find it odd IMO/JMO.:read: [/*]
www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270108,00.html New post following yours at deseretnews. Yes, odd. Here's more about Monica with 5 kids between the age of 3-11 who was out of state for "an appointment"(your kids just found out what crayons are, how would someone need you out of state for an appointment!). Also Shannon who was "off the ranch" and says she should be allowed to see her children because"the children know who their mother is, and I know who my children are." Also says she can produce birth certificates. Since when have we seen birth certs for any of these kids?

[juliekan]

www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html
The women are calling reporters on the phone and complaining about the $40,000-$60,000 (yes the costs have escalated) a day that we Texans are paying to feed them their organic meals and clothe them and meet all their needs with specialists from all over, and keep their children from bodily harm.
OOPS...disregard the above...they are actually calling to tell the reporters about the childrens anxiety at night, that the children are being threatened to tell things or they will be taken away, and that the medical staff is touching them inappropriately.
Interesting that the women have their cell phones...who are they in CONTACT with besides the reporters from the UTAH deseretnews?
I wish the children the best...obviously it will be uphill with these women from the compound in charge

[walton]

Originally posted by juliekan
www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html
The women are calling reporters on the phone and complaining about the $40,000-$60,000 (yes the costs have escalated) a day that we Texans are paying to feed them their organic meals and clothe them and meet all their needs with specialists from all over, and keep their children from bodily harm.
OOPS...disregard the above...they are actually calling to tell the reporters about the childrens anxiety at night, that the children are being threatened to tell things or they will be taken away, and that the medical staff is touching them inappropriately.
Interesting that the women have their cell phones...who are they in CONTACT with besides the reporters from the UTAH deseretnews?
I wish the children the best...obviously it will be uphill with these women from the compound in charge [/*]

http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html


I see the name Kathleen listed here but I don't see a Monica or a Marcie.

As easily as it is for these "mothers" to call news reporters it should have been just as easy for them to call for help when they handed their children over to Warren Jeffs.

I've been reading with interest about how tough it was on the families from the 53 raid and how it was so very hard on these familes.

The government was so tough on them that they continued to live their lifestyle by breaking the law. They continued to have children marry old men. They went one up and kicked their own sons out of the community. I guess if I had gone thru so much heartache and so much pain, I would have removed my self from the atmosphere. I would never make my children feel my pain. jmo

Sons who have been asking about their mothers. Sons who have asked other mothers to help find their families, only to be turned away each and every time.

[lotty]

Originally posted by juliekan

I still think you're probably right... sounds familiar...but to play:flamemad: advocate, here's all I've found so far:
www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy4
"the women-we never see them. They keep 'em cooped up." [/*]

OK! Can't find it, after much looking and trying every possible way I can think of to search, maybe not as thorough as I should be. Too many current articles.

So to all of you, disregard the walmart statement. I'm tired of looking for the link.hammer

[Freebird]

Originally posted by juliekan
www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html
The women are calling reporters on the phone and complaining about the $40,000-$60,000 (yes the costs have escalated) a day that we Texans are paying to feed them their organic meals and clothe them and meet all their needs with specialists from all over, and keep their children from bodily harm.
OOPS...disregard the above...they are actually calling to tell the reporters about the childrens anxiety at night, that the children are being threatened to tell things or they will be taken away, and that the medical staff is touching them inappropriately.
Interesting that the women have their cell phones...who are they in CONTACT with besides the reporters from the UTAH deseretnews?
I wish the children the best...obviously it will be uphill with these women from the compound in charge [/*]

These kids are in an uphill battle no matter who's in charge.

Also,we should remember who's ultimately responsible.

[juliekan]

Grammybear...ain't nobody takin' my kids anywhere:no:
WE AGREE