Ray Gricar, Missing Centre County DA, 3/22/08 thread

[J. J. in Phila]

Ray F. Gricar, missing since 4/15/05. He was the District Attorney of Centre County, PA at the time of his disappearance.

[Cinderella]

last night I watched the movie of American Gangster, it is a true story pertaining to drugs and corruption. I thought that the movie was great, which showed me things that I didn't know.

I heard that it has probably been out for a year.

Actor Russell Crowe played a lead part. He reminded me of what I would expect of Ray Gricar.

If you haven't seen the movie, I highly suggest that you rent it. Some of it was a little hard for me to understand, but you will get it.

Happy Easter to all posters and your families. I hope that you have a wonderful Easter. Please remember that Easter is not about the bunny rabbit, or the eggs, but that Christ died on the cross and rose againfor each and everyones sins, because that is how much, He loves us and that if we accept a relationship, we wii live with Him forever.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks

The case, after nearly three years, continues to remain under the control of the local Bellefonte police force, the same town where Ray Gricar lived and worked. The local police force was inexperienced in handling high profile cases, particularly that of a missing elected official or one of such magnitude.


Let's be blunt, no Pennsylvania District Attorney has ever disappeared before, nor been murdered. No police department in the state has any experience with this.

This is an unprecedented situation and there isn't a guide for it.


The local police failed to secure the home of the significant other, failed to conduct fingerprint testing at the home, failed to follow proper procedure in collecting evidence at the home and seemingly also at the office. They failed to accept the expert advise of other investigative teams from more experienced agencies.


Let's be clear on this. In missing person cases, be they handled by the Bellefonte Police Department, the Philadelphia Police Department, or Pennsylvania State Police, the house is not secured, fingerprints are not taken. That is "proper procedure" in these cases.




If this case is not removed from the hands of the local police department, and placed in the hands of a multi-jurisdictional task force with no local or Attorney General office strings attached for control purposes, ( AG being the previous office of the current DA), and 'policed' to ensure there is no conflict of interest involved at the investigative level, this case will go down in Centre County history as yet another unsolved/cold case. That is the worst tribute and insult that could ever be paid to an outstanding DA, an expert in his field, who gave his all, at all times, and received nothing but 'bungled' in return.


Because the PSP, AG's office, and all local police departments in Centre County have worked with the DA's Office, this seems impossible. Even a "task force" is a basic composite of these local agencies, the PSP, and/or the AG's office.

I've have many disagreements with LE's conduct in this case, but I'd doubt if a "Gricar task force," would remove the elements you are complaining about in calling one.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sadiemay62


Im sorry, but many, many of your statements are totally untrue. If you have some links to prove your statements are true, please provide them Otherwise, it's unfair to make untrue statements about the investigation. The disappearance of Ray G. is very sad, and bad enough, without making untrue statements about the investigation. MOO



*****, I disagree with some of LW's statements, but there is some legitimate criticism of LE.

You correctly point out that some of his statement are incorrect, especially regarding the "standard procedure.," but there were short coming of the initial investigator. For example, police insisted that RFG's were in the car; they were not. Some things that I think LE should have checked were not checked.

[Cinderella]

*****, I agree with everything Logic stated. You must be related to someone close to the case, or you don't know enough the case to make those statements.

Please post what you disagree about Logics post and set us straight and tell us by documentation, Why you feel that way.

Inquiring minds want to know. Apparently you have some proof that we have never heard of.

I can't wait to find out new information of the case from you.

[day2day]

Originally posted by sadiemay62


Clearly, you are right about some things, but many of LW's statements were untrue. Certainly, these are a couple of areas warranting criticism, but not everything the LE did was wrong.

MOO [/*]

I for one happen to agree 100 percent with everything LW posted. Maybe you could point out a few things LE has done right and we can go from there...:shrug:

[gstickley]

Ditto to Day's post.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by sadiemay62


Clearly, you are right about some things, but many of LW's statements were untrue. Certainly, these are a couple of areas warranting criticism, but not everything the LE did was wrong.

MOO [/*]

I'm jumping on the bandwagon and respectfully ask....which statements were not true?

Come on ***** - you can't just jump into the discussion like this and then disappear without something to back up your claim.

[Laws]

APPLAUDING the written words of Logic!!!!!!!!!

The first PA DA to go missing, it has been pointed out. How would they know how to proceed?

Special Prosecutor appointment to co-ordinate.

In the last 10 years, the treatment of "gone missing" individuals of the USA are treated by responsible entities in an entirely different manner than periods before through the enhancement of techniques & technology but not in PA??????? WHY??????

THERE WAS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT MR. GRICAR WOULD JUST TAKE OFF. NONE. This should have been the last direction contemplated, NOT THE FIRST. One time in a 20 year period this dedicated man took off for a day & it determined the course of the investigation??????????????? NONSENSE at work. Those accepting of such policies, of course their motives are questioned here & will continue to be.

RAY GRICAR DESERVED MUCH MUCH BETTER & so do any "gone missing" individuals in PA. Perhaps devil worshippers are in control, at least that is how it appears at this point.

[sherrijean981]

There have been many in Centre County and way beyond who are wondering what to do to keep Ray Gricar in everyone's thoughts, on this upcoming 3rd anniversary of his disappearance.

I was remembering an article I had read a month or so ago about his favorite charity, Women's Resource Center, where he had spent so much time and contributed part of his wages, even when working part time as DA. He was supposed to have given the difference between his part time pay and what he made after being hired as full time DA. A place where he helped women and children to survive the affects of spousal or family abuse. Not just one year, but many years.

Here is part of the article I read. Why not donate to the charity, Women's Resource Center, in Ray Gricar's name? You would be helping the place he valued and remembering Ray at the same time. Since he is not here to help them, they are now suffering financially.

Quote:
"Article 22 of 527; 605 words

LOCAL SHELTER IN 'DIRE' SITUATION

Source: Sara Ganim sganim@centredaily.com
Proposed federal budget cuts could mean more pain for women and children who are victims of domestic violence, local and state advocates say. And the state seems unlikely to step in and help, as Gov. Ed Rendell's proposed 2008-09 budget offers no new money for domestic violence programs such as the Centre County Women's Resource Center, said center Executive Director Anne Ard. More than 80 percent of the center's $1 million budget comes from state and federal

Published on February 18, 2008, Page 1, Centre Daily Times (State College, PA) "
Quote

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


I'm jumping on the bandwagon and respectfully ask....which statements were not true?

Come on ***** - you can't just jump into the discussion like this and then disappear without something to back up your claim. [/*]

One would be the claim that LE, "failed to follow proper procedure in collecting evidence at the home and seemingly also at the office." They seem to have done what other police forces (including the PSP) have done in other cases.

As there has never been a murder, or a disappearance of a DA before, the statement "The local police force was inexperienced in handling high profile cases, particularly that of a missing elected official or one of such magnitude.," is pretty much nonsense.

Also, I should note that TG mentioned that in investigating his father's disappearance, Roy Gricar's car was not processed. The Mini was. The house was searched for any evidence of a crime, though not subject to a full forensic search, which is generally not done. So there are some examples of LE doing more than they would normally do.

[sherrijean981]

I am reading a true crime book and it is stating they do not consider missing men, who disappear, as a missing person, murdered or anything happening to him. Most of the time they are considered just a man who is walking away. And with all the searching they have done so far, it is more than a lot of men have had done for them.

I disagree but I was getting the idea they think men are going through a change of life thing and just want out of what ever they are in. And a lot don't take clothing or money. The just leave with no notes or answers. Some could be found many years later but a lot never are.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



None of the statements are incorrect.

We are not talking about a missing teenager with an established pattern for running away. We are talking about a county district attorney who prior to his disappearance exhibited no known reason whatsoever for walking away, running away, disappearing.



In the Smith case, in Philadelphia, a women, Smith, disappeared from a Center City hotel room, and the PPD never dusted the room. She was a middle aged professional woman IIRC.


A significant other, regardless of how knowledgeable the SO may be of LE procedure, can not take on nor be given the role of investigating her own premises, neither in the searching or in the collection of evidence. The missing person in this case happens to be more than her SO; he is our county official, the local DA.


She wasn't. She was asked to get a laptop from a closet.


I have yet to receive an answer as to what other members of LE were present to accompany DetZ on Saturday morning when he conducted his search of the office.


Whoa! I've rarely heard of LE having to travel in pairs.


It is time for a Special Case task force investigation, multi-jurisdictional, the experts in PA to come in. For those who think it is more important to maintain the 'status quo' than it is to solve the case, that is your perogative. The case will never be solved at the level of the problem.
JMO [/*]

Oh, so who is in charge of this "task force?" You don't want the BPD, the PSP, or AG's Office. Who's left?

[Cloudbuster]

Happy Easter all!!! I had a good Easter and finally got to meet our Cind and her wonderful family!!! While getting a bite to eat we discussed this case and made some plans for searches in better weather conditions. Maybe what we need is some more organized search teams. Between Cind and I we came up with a few areas of interest. maybe that is something we should do for the third Anniversary?;)

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
I'm jumping on the bandwagon and respectfully ask....which statements were not true? Come on ***** - you can't just jump into the discussion like this and then disappear without something to back up your claim. Of course 'she' can...as 'she' has done frequently this weekend, on a score of threads. Trolling was mentioned...just stating my opinion was the counter...'filler for naught' was the retort...no reply...go figure. MOO

[Serendipitous1]

If the state AG were to inexplicably go missing, there would be an unprecedented, state-level investigation. County DAs are representatives of the state. But in this case, the unmistakable inference has always been that whatever happened to Ray Gricar is of no importance to the state...it is a parochial matter, unworthy of the state's intervention.

That attitude sucks. The news media can effect a change in 'sucky' attitudes...and the Centre Daily Times could lead that campaign. But, as evidenced by its editor's recent blog entry, that will not be happening anytime soon.
http://blogs.centredaily.com/happy_valley/2008/02/wheres-ray.html

All JMOO.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ the people that you are refering to seem to be the road block this case has blundered out against. THE AG made it clear they don't want involved and M$M won't request their help. BPD has to go thru M$M to get help and that ain't gonna happen you know that. The state police, M$M hasn't admitted to needing them either. When T$C and M$M get their heads srewed back on and remember that they work for the citizens and not their personal selves things could change. Do I see that happening? NO and the answer looks like its personal somehow as to WHY? I am getting the big picture and If I was the betting type I see FIRE between T$C and RG. No wonder RG looked miserable in his last photo and I bet T$C knows why.

JMHOhammer

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ the people that you are refering to seem to be the road block this case has blundered out against. THE AG made it clear they don't want involved and M$M won't request their help. BPD has to go thru M$M to get help and that ain't gonna happen you know that. The state police, M$M hasn't admitted to needing them either. When T$C and M$M get their heads srewed back on and remember that they work for the citizens and not their personal selves things could change. Do I see that happening? NO and the answer looks like its personal somehow as to WHY? I am getting the big picture and If I was the betting type I see FIRE between T$C and RG. No wonder RG looked miserable in his last photo and I bet T$C knows why.



There is nobody else out there. There isn't even the hint of a federal crime. The people with jurisdiction are basically the BPD, PSP, and the Centre DA's and AG's Offices. Any "task force" would have to be formed by them; even a grand jury would have to go through the AG's or DA's Offices.

[Serendipitous1]

Trying to pin down what happened to Ray Gricar is definitely a job for LE. But finding evidence in this case has seemed to have also fallen on the public. Who would have 'thunk' that the laptop would have been discovered by a couple of 'fishermen', after an intensive, official search of the river revealed nothing?...or that a hard drive would have been discovered later by a 'mother and child' while skipping stones, a while after the laptop had been found?

Given the hard drive find's purported location, I have had a difficult time accepting that it was there from the beginning, based upon my own personal observations on-site, April-June '05. That (but not just that) has fueled my continued search of what I believe to be 'high value' target areas...and not just those previously "searched" by LE. I would encourage others who are able to do so also.

All JMOO

[Serendipitous1]

I wonder how many Pennsylvanians have actually asked their representatives in the legislature to intercede on this matter. I have...obviously to no avail (yet). Based on responses, the overwhelming inference is that this is a parochial matter. I continue to suggest that it is not parochial until it is shown to be parochial. Catch-22. JMOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



If the Governor can create a task force to check on wild animals in PA, he should certainly be able to think his way through to form a committee for appointments to a Special Case Task Force in Pennsylvania, for those cold cases that cannot and will not be solved at a local level.


Now you are talking about something entirely different. Look, we've discussed the Aardsma case; it is very clearly a murder case, and unsolved for decades, but no task force.

Please keep in mind that Colorado is not Pennsylvania.

S1, one of the most disheartening I've seen in this case is the lack of public outcry.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


S1, one of the most disheartening I've seen in this case is the lack of public outcry. [/*]

Lack of Centre County public outcry. Most of the people on the forum are not in Centre County and I have not seen any "Letters To The Editor" from the only people the CDT will accept them from - Centre Countians.


The question is "Why not?"

[Politigal]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Lack of Centre County public outcry. Most of the people on the forum are not in Centre County and I have not seen any "Letters To The Editor" from the only people the CDT will accept them from - Centre Countians.


The question is "Why not?" [/*]

And people from out of town (like myself) are politely ignored - both by the Centre Daily Times and by Michael Madeira. I've written both of them and gotten no response.

[gstickley]

I can't begin to imagine the horror felt by the loved one(s) of a missing person. If a person is killed, I believe there may be some measure of closure; at least you know what happened to your loved one. However, a missing person is completely different; how can there ever be any closure without knowing what happened to the loved one?

Thousands of people are listed as 'missing persons' every year; they may be located, they may never be located. Each case is tragic for the loved ones, friends, family, community, and attempts should never be given up to locate the missing.

In the so-called 'missing person' case of Ray Gricar, District Attorney of Centre County, PA, the stakes are much higher, IMO. Mr. Gricar was an elected official; Mr. Gricar was the 'Chief Law Enforcement Officer' in Centre County, PA.

However, the disappearance of Ray Gricar on 04/14/05 was essentially stalled within a month afterwards. Within a year, it was publicly announced by LE & the new DA that 'no stones had been left unturned' in the search for Mr. Gricar, that 'everything that could be done was done', that there was no reason to ask for assistance from 'other' agencies, as the 'other' agencies had been assisting from the beginning. Approx. 2 years after Mr. Gricar's disappearance, it was learned that information that may have been crucial to the investigation had been withheld from the public and the family in order not to 'embarrass the family' or that it fell by the wayside, depending on who was speaking. An investigation by the PSP-CIA revealed that BPD had done everything correctly, with very few comments; of course, the PSP-CIA relied on the BPD for their information. Approx. 3 years after Mr. Gricar's disappearance, it was learned that a new OIC was in charge of the investigation; that so-called 'mistakements' had been made by the previous OIC, such as the famous 'fingerprints on the Mini'.

The new OIC has reportedly been 'on the case' since the beginning & had worked closely with the old OIC for the past year. Yet, the new OIC is still reading reports. Folks, it's been three (3) years!!!

The only articles published in the local newspaper, the Centre Daily Times, in the past year have been one by the so-called police reporter casting doubts about a website by former ADA Karen Arnold, and two (2) other articles about Mr. Gricar, which more or less say that the truth may never be known about what happened to him. Of course, there is the Q&A section, wherein people can ask questions of the 'police reporter'; sometimes the questions are even answered, but the "I'll check & get back with you" answers surpass any real answers. In the past three (3) years, to my knowledge the CDT has never called for a comprehensive investigation into the disappearance of the Centre Co. DA; the 'voice' with the power has largely remained silent.

Logicworks has a great post herein. Logicworks is correct in her call that a taskforce be assembled to investigate the disappearance of Ray Gricar. It matters not that there is no taskforce in effect anywhere at this time. This is a unique investigation, and it needs to be handled by a 'unique' taskforce.

JMO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal


And people from out of town (like myself) are politely ignored - both by the Centre Daily Times and by Michael Madeira. I've written both of them and gotten no response. [/*]

I know. I did get someone from the CDT get in touch with me after many Letters To The Editor were ignored and he was the one who told me there was only so much room for letters and they reserved the space for Centre Countians. I was buying the paper at our local store but no more. And if you check the Letters To the Editor site there are many days with only one letter. Why not use the space on those days? And if you notice there are no letters concerning RG from Centre County.

I want to know why none of the friends, co-workers and associates have complained in a letter, or made a ruckus about it? Kept it in the news? Made waves with the news networks? What if it had been one of them?

TG when are the parties writing the stories going to post them?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



Nobody? Are you certain of that? I certainly am not.

No 'hint' known to you. Up till a month ago, there was no 'hint' to either the public or the family about the lack of RG's fingerprints being found in the car.
I wouldn't carve anything in stone just yet, JJ.
JMO [/*]

What about the FBI and the Secret Service? Why doesn't someone hire a "GOOD" Private Investigator? There has to be others out there willing to help, we just need to find them.

Or does someone higher up know something about the case no one else knows? That RG could be alive? Or dead? but where would his body be, other than the Chesapeake Bay?

[gstickley]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


What about the FBI and the Secret Service? Why doesn't someone hire a "GOOD" Private Investigator? There has to be others out there willing to help, we just need to find them.

Or does someone higher up know something about the case no one else knows? That RG could be alive? Or dead? but where would his body be, other than the Chesapeake Bay? [/*]

SJ, I don't know the answers to any of your questions; I have the same questions myself.

IMO, that is why an independent investigation, a special taskforce, needs to be set up to look into this case. I do not feel that the disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gricar, Chief Law Enforcement Officer of Centre Co., PA, should be left in the hands of those in charge for the past three (3) years; those who seem content to sit back & wait for 'evidence' to come to them; those who seem content to leave the case as 'possible suicide', 'possible walkaway', 'possible foul play'; those who have said 'no stone has been left unturned'.

I also feel that anyone who doesn't want/expect/demand a 'new set of eyes', an independent investigation, a special taskforce, to look into RG's disappearance, apparently doesn't want to find out the truth about the disappearance!!!

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by gstickley


SJ, I don't know the answers to any of your questions; I have the same questions myself.

IMO, that is why an independent investigation, a special taskforce, needs to be set up to look into this case. I do not feel that the disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gricar, Chief Law Enforcement Officer of Centre Co., PA, should be left in the hands of those in charge for the past three (3) years; those who seem content to sit back & wait for 'evidence' to come to them; those who seem content to leave the case as 'possible suicide', 'possible walkaway', 'possible foul play'; those who have said 'no stone has been left unturned'.

I also feel that anyone who doesn't want/expect/demand a 'new set of eyes', an independent investigation, a special taskforce, to look into RG's disappearance, apparently doesn't want to find out the truth about the disappearance!!! [/*]

Maybe it is time to send letters to Governor Rendell, or ask the questions of the 3 that are running for the office of President of the US. Hillary Clinton, Obama and McClain? At least 2 are in the State College area now. Someone from the Centre County area could make a visit to where they are campaigning and ask them to have it checked into.

Cinderella, LW, S1, (not sure who else is over there) get to State College and go to those offices. Ask them for help, explain the situation.

I don't have a car anymore to do any running or I would do it. I will be your cheerleader from my seat and say prayers that your voice reaches them. Go team go!! :patriot:

[Politigal]

I know that on behalf of the family, Tony worked behind the scenes and tried to get RG's case turned over to another agency, to no avail.

Hopefully, since learning about no fingerprints, he's reignited his efforts in that regard.

However, why hasn't Patty ever called for more action?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal
I know that on behalf of the family, Tony worked behind the scenes and tried to get RG's case turned over to another agency, to no avail.

Hopefully, since learning about no fingerprints, he's reignited his efforts in that regard.

However, why hasn't Patty ever called for more action? [/*]

Since PF doesn't talk to anyone about the case, there is no proof she hasn't done things, contacted people. She very well could be doing her part behind the scene, as is TG.

I wonder if any of the Centre County attorney's have done anything or talked to anyone to get the case moving elsewhere? What about Judge Grine or the Centre County representatives, County Commissioners, etc?

We are hearing NOTHING about anyone doing anything, but we would be the last to know about it. Why would anyone tell us?

I for one, am not blaming anyone anymore for anything because I don't know what goes on in others homes, offices, as no one knows what I do to help.

We just have to keep looking and moving forward either alone, or as groups, working together.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Politigal
I know that on behalf of the family, Tony worked behind the scenes and tried to get RG's case turned over to another agency, to no avail.

Hopefully, since learning about no fingerprints, he's reignited his efforts in that regard.

However, why hasn't Patty ever called for more action? [/*]

Perhaps Robert A could answer that if PF can't.

[Cloudbuster]

S1 I got a question for you? Would M$M make more money with Ray's job than the former position he held? Also what would be better about having RG's job than the former job? Is it possible M$M wanted away from T$C for some reason? Can you think of anything?

Why did M$M seem so upset with JKA?

WHy did MS seem to keep JKA away from things she could have taken over in his absence??? Camping in Pittsburgh vs. the mountain areas holding better areas for camping and fishing?? Suppose Pittsburgh also don't carry cell phone signals when JKA tried calling him??? I think not.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Since PF doesn't talk to anyone about the case, there is no proof she hasn't done things, contacted people. She very well could be doing her part behind the scene, as is TG.

I wonder if any of the Centre County attorney's have done anything or talked to anyone to get the case moving elsewhere? What about Judge Grine or the Centre County representatives, County Commissioners, etc?

We are hearing NOTHING about anyone doing anything, but we would be the last to know about it. Why would anyone tell us?

I for one, am not blaming anyone anymore for anything because I don't know what goes on in others homes, offices, as no one knows what I do to help.

We just have to keep looking and moving forward either alone, or as groups, working together. [/*]

Unlike JJ - I am not afraid to admit when I'm wrong...and you are correct. I really have no clue if Patty has or hasn't done anything to try & step up the investigation of RG's disappearance.

I think it's the silence on this case that irks me the most.

For that matter, we really don't know that Matt Rickard is even doing a darn thing.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
S1 I got a question for you? Would M$M make more money with Ray's job than the former position he held? Also what would be better about having RG's job than the former job? Is it possible M$M wanted away from T$C for some reason? Can you think of anything?

Why did M$M seem so upset with JKA?

WHy did MS seem to keep JKA away from things she could have taken over in his absence??? Camping in Pittsburgh vs. the mountain areas holding better areas for camping and fishing?? Suppose Pittsburgh also don't carry cell phone signals when JKA tried calling him??? I think not. All JMOO - I do not have any specific answers. I think there are aspects other than money which factor into a decision to change careers, as MM did. If nothing else, it was an entry into the wonderful world of politics (perhaps a stepping stone).

It has been discussed before...how bitter the election campaigning became between MM and KA. But I believe it may go deeper than that. I am not sure to what you are referring about MS and KA. Maybe there was a general disaffection with KA in that office. OTOH, if there was...why would RG have kept her on?

According to KA in her googlepages, MS and his wife were camping with people they were visiting; he did not have his cell phone with him at the time and had not gotten her earlier messages; and when she did get ahold of him, he was driving back and was in Pittsburgh, nearing a tunnel (where he momentarily lost service). I have no idea how you arrived at anything different.

[J. J. in Phila]

This is, unfortunately, pie in the sky. If you basically, no LE organization that has ever worked with RFG or MM should be involved, that leaves no one, except a federal agency. The Secret Service has no jurisdiction and the FBI has no direct jurisdiction; there is no evidence of a federal crime (or of a crime, for that matter).

In theory, the FBI could be called in, but I'm not sure they'd do anything other than open a file.

My particular problem has been that letters to legislators have been answered with, basically, **LE has done everything it can.** Implied is that LE has used enough resources on the case. There isn't a public outcry for a solution. Because there is at least the possibility of murder, there should be an outcry.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
All JMOO - I do not have any specific answers. I think there are aspects other than money which factor into a decision to change careers, as MM did. If nothing else, it was an entry into the wonderful world of politics (perhaps a stepping stone).

It has been discussed before...how bitter the election campaigning became between MM and KA. But I believe it may go deeper than that.



MM was formerly the Treasurer of Centre County Republican Committee, so I don't think it is too unfair to say that he has had some political ambitions. He was "political" before the run.

The 2005 Campaign appeared to be quite bitter, from what I've seen online. JKA raised an issue that MM attended Bob Jones University and tried to link him to the ideology of the founder (some of is basically anti-Catholic, but MM went to Vilianova for his JD, which is affiliated with the Catholic Church).

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks S1!!! So MM's former job might possibly have been a better paying job? There is just something there and I can't put my finger on it. The problem is it seems like MM was pulling away from TC or clutches of that department. It almost looked like MM had to have that job for some reason and the only thing that was in the way was JKA. JKA would have been MM's only road block. Maybe the man was desparate? But why? OR did someone want him in that position to do exactly what we see? All stones left to still be turned over. Meaning "You can't touch this " lol Things gotta go thru MM first and what do we see? NO action, is that how someone wanted it? Let's go up one notch and it takes us to TC and we see the same inaction as with MM? It brings me back to why and what was TC and RG's relationship really like, cause i still see fire.
JMHO

[Serendipitous1]

I do not see any of that, Cb. We were told that foul play is on the table (first it was, 'can't rule it out', and later it was, 'looking more and more likely'). My main beef with MM is that he (as did MS before him) has not recognized the conflict of interest which could potentially exist in the DA's office, in the event it was foul play. It seemed to be the logical way to mitigate that possibility and to get investigatory control into the hands of the most qualified entity.

Instead, MS/MM (and the BPD) side stepped those issues by returning to the 3-equally-plausible-theories refrain, with the every-stone-turned-over chorus. I am still not convinced TC was not the choreographer of that dance. But by doing that, they are stuck with the public's perception of a flawed investigation, whether deserved or not. MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I do not see any of that, Cb. We were told that foul play is on the table (first it was, 'can't rule it out', and later it was, 'looking more and more likely'). My main beef with MM is that he (as did MS before him) has not recognized the conflict of interest which could potentially exist in the DA's office, in the event it was foul play. It seemed to be the logical way to mitigate that possibility and to get investigatory control into the hands of the most qualified entity.

Instead, MS/MM (and the BPD) side stepped those issues by returning to the 3-equally-plausible-theories refrain, with the every-stone-turned-over chorus. I am still not convinced TC was not the choreographer of that dance. But by doing that, they are stuck with the public's perception of a flawed investigation, whether deserved or not. MOO [/*]

The question that I still have is why is there not a public outcry?

I cannot believe if there was public pressure on the elected officials in the area that there would be more action.

[Cinderella]

I believe that one of the reasons that the there isn't a public outcry is because the citizens don't hear too much from the Gricar family. They think that Ray is in a Witness Protection Program or that he walked away.

The Gricar Family needs to come to Centre County and spend some time here complaining and crying out to the people. Lara needs to stand up for her dad. She is old enough to speak her mind. I don't know of any person that would keep quiet while their father is missing. Lara needs to take the reins. Let TG deal with some of the issues, but Lara needs to speak out and boldly.
Let the Centre County Citizens know that you are not happy at all with the situation. Cry out for the citizens to step in and help you. Make waves. If it were my dad, I don't care if I would end up in Jail. TG is just being pacified. Many people also wonder, since the Gricar family has been quiet, have they seen Ray or know that Ray is alive?

In this day and age, when you want something done, you got to do it yourself. The former Centre County Commissioner that was a Commissioner when Ray was in office is running for Congress.
I bet an outcry of him not doing anything would not help his political career. Make him earn his right to be a Congressman. Where does the buck stop.

I know Lara that you father would have done anything for you. It is getting late in the game. You need to come out and come out strong as if you are running for office. You also have the media at your feet when needed. Don't just give up and think that your father is dead. Find out the truth.

TG sorted of stated that you could kick butt or something to the effect, Let's see it. THE citizens will stand behind you. Growing up, did you just give up on the things that you wanted or did you go for it no matter what. You Go Girl.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I believe that one of the reasons that the there isn't a public outcry is because the citizens don't hear too much from the Gricar family. They think that Ray is in a Witness Protection Program or that he walked away.


I don't think it's the family, but perception could have a lot to do with it. It's a matter of evidence. What evidence is there that what happened to RFG wasn't voluntary?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



The family of the missing person typically does everything that can possibly be done to keep the case from becoming a cold case, keeping the case in the public eye, as every attempt is made to find out what happened to the family member, and asking the public for assistance to keep the investigation moving ahead.


First, TG and the CDT, in the person of PB (and EN before him), have been trying to keep the case in public view. The public is not demanding an answer of their elected officials



Since an investigation conducted by a non-conflict-of-interest, fully empowered task force has yet to occur, how can anyone know what evidence actually exists? Considering the most important evidentiary offering has proven to be a 'cover-up' at the local conflict-of-interest center, proving anything we have been offered cannot be taken at 'face value', only a non-conflict-of-interest investigation will uncover other such 'deficiencies' in details regarding evidence.


There is the same problem. Anyone that could be involved has been involved (at least at a departmental level) with the Centre County DA's Office. Who, in LE, would have form this "task force" and administrate it.


Question for you.........Why hasn't RG contacted anyone in nearly three years?
JMO [/*]

If this was a walkaway, one answer might be, "He doesn't want to." Certainly, if this was voluntary, RFG would be smart enough to abstain from contact with loved ones, that could be traced, where one of the loved ones could slip and give something away.

[Cinderella]

I believe that if it is true what people say about how much Ray loved Lara, if she called they were to put her through to him, then there is no way that Ray could ever just not get in touch with her again. A person that loves someone that much could never stay away no matter what. Unless they were dead.

TG and PB is not enough. The citizens need stirred up to take action. Many citizens loved Ray. We are willing to stand behind family and friends of Ray.

This case should go somewhere else. It is like when Ray decided to not try the case of a pregnant woman, who was almost due to have her baby, she was riding in a vehicle with her husband, and another vehicle turn in front of the vehicle that she was riding in. Her and her baby died. Because the woman was related to Ray's wife, he felt that he should not be the one to try the case. So it is the same in Bellefonte. Something needs to be done. Nothing against Det. Rickard, but this case needs to be looked at with a different set of eyes. Eyes that are not focused on anything else but solving the case, no matter who is involved.

Det. Rickard is still under Shawn Weaver. This case needs outsiders to come in. Outsiders who don't give a darn who is who or who this case is going to affect. This should have been done the first year and the citizens of Centre County and Pennsylvania should not have let it get this far. It is time for a change.

Sure it is hard to stand up and speak out for something that everyone wants hush hush. Someone has to have the guts to do it without ever caring about what the hushers want. When I say hushers, I mean the ones that are keeping this case under wraps.

How much say does Rickard have. If he thought that a Judge or Congressman was involved, would he be allowed to pursue his theory? I don't know. I want to find out.

If Ray is out there then he should contact someone in the family and let them know. The family doesn't have to say where he is at. All they have to say is that he is alive and ok. Then we can let it go. Without proof, we can't let it go.

I have asked before for people to contact me. Anyone who is interested in doing anything for this case. We need to get some people together and decide what we are going to do. It takes more than just a handful. I am willing to work with the family or anyone else that cares about Ray. I can put aside my feelings and work with anyone that wants justice for Ray. Please let me hear from you. PM me, e-mail me here or at:

livingmylifeforhim@yahoo.com

[Serendipitous1]

In my experience, there is no bond stronger than that of father to daughter. Though beyond my experience, I think that applies to adopted daughters as well. The question, in this case, is whether the reverse is true. Lara Gricar needs to come forward...with all due respect to cousins. JMOO

[Serendipitous1]

All the Way - Celine Dion and Frank Sinatra LIVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxps4ggfoy4

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
All the Way - Celine Dion and Frank Sinatra LIVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxps4ggfoy4 [/*]Bump...because I can...for LAG and BAJ. You will never know what is possible...until you try.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by logicworks


Do you think he is hiding from someone, or everyone? [/*]

I don't think Ray would be hiding. He bravely swung to the front of the newspapers when the biggest herion bust went down. Did he look scared? No but he looked p--sed off about either the bust which I still think not. I think he was more ticked off about who he shared center stage with JMHO. Feels like to me fire was in the room during that photo.

Ray wouldn't run away from PF she is what? Just a short petite lady.

What I do think is that whatever is known behind the scenes has given them the idea he ran off. I could scream when I read that now. I do believe there is more than what is being said and thats whats leading those to the run off theory, but that is not true. (disclaimer) RG IMO was holding some things that was going on to himself. I also have reason to believe he planned to go to PF that day after what he was doing was over and explain all this to her he wanted it all out. Yea Im sorry but I just can't explain. I just know if he could he would have done that.:rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Do you think he is hiding from someone, or everyone? [/*]

First, I wouldn't use the term "hiding."

Second, while I think it is very possible that RFG walked away, I have NOT concluded that he has.

There is of course the other possibility, he did walkaway and he has talked to someone that was close, but asked them not to call LE (or anyone). As far as know, they are not required to come forward.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Who do you think he called? [/*]

Where did I say that I "think" he's called anyone?