3-22 to 3-24

[Oregongal]

Cat, your box is full!
:)

[ThruTheTrees]

Originally posted by SeattleEddie


The vigils took place between leaving and calling his family (?)

I thought the vigils were more recent than two weeks after his leaving. Like, a week later..... I don't remember. But they don't seem to be looking for him now.

I don't know why the family then hasn't called a press conference to announce he is safe. If this is true.

Another possibility is that he went overseas with his father to "get away from it all." Because his father is apparently going through his own separation.

All speculation strictly my opinion. [/*]

I could only see them not saying anything (if they've heard from him) if they somehow think that he is in some sort of danger. Otherwise they are perpetuating a fraud...

[ThruTheTrees]

Originally posted by K Anne


I'd venture to say that NF is a believer and has a strong foundation in the church (whether Catholic or the MHC brand of Christianity), and if he is a graphic designer, and passionate about fonts, it's probably no skin off his nose to create art for free, for God, for whichever church he participates with.

Also FWIW, many families suspend judgment of their adult children's choices in faith; that the adult child (or sibling or what have you) is among others in a kinship of faith, is enough, particularly if the adult child's faith community is supportive of that child when he or she is in crisis, or needs counsel, etc.

"Would you if you felt you didn't fit in with your family or their beliefs?" Who feels that?

Just because MHC has been painted by journalists and disgruntled ex-members as cultish or scary etc. does not make it a cult. You really could call any religion a cult; you could call television a cult. It doesn't mean it doesn't also have its virtues, its purpose, its legitimate benefit to most members.

BTW I had the same reaction when I first read that link last month. But I see MHC has merit, even if its most renowned participants are obnoxious or even obviously toxic. [/*]

All good points. Oh, and "you could call crime boards a cult." Just wanted to add that. :)

People do sometimes reach a crossroads where they question their faith. Where what they've been believing, even for much of their life, doesn't work for them anymore. Maybe Nicholas reached that point.

[K Anne]

Originally posted by need2no
...If found dead I doubt cavities would be the most helpful or identifying piece of info used to determine the deceased's identity.
The scar and mole, yes, cavities, no. Millions of men are probably walking around with cavities...
[/*]

When my father's body was found, dental records were the ONLY identifying piece of info used to determine his identity.

JUST SAYING.

[K Anne]

Originally posted by ThruTheTrees


All good points. Oh, and "you could call crime boards a cult." Just wanted to add that. :)

People do sometimes reach a crossroads where they question their faith. Where what they've been believing, even for much of their life, doesn't work for them anymore. Maybe Nicholas reached that point. [/*]

;) TTT, I typed that a few times, and erased it a few times. I didn't know if it would be received in the spirit in which I thought it. Thanks for adding it! :D

I understand about questioning faith, as well, and given the MHC line on feminine roles, and how that plays against a man's ability to provide, I can see NF reaching that point. I just can't see him leaving his family over it.

[Cury-us Coyote]

Identity - first item (green arrowhead) in row 2 is labeled Elmwood Christian
http://www.franciscodesign.com/design/

[need2no]

Originally posted by SeattleEddie
N2N, exactly ITA with your thoughts. I was posting and didn't see yours, but right on! [/*]


Thanks SE.

Regarding your theory, which I concur with, just a couple of additional thoughts. Considering how NF left without a trace it would seem to me he had this planned for a while, not spur of the moment. Perhaps he was just mulling it around and something happened which was the straw that broke the camel's back. Like (as you suggested) when CF said she was pregnant. NF could have shot back with how the heck can we afford another child, I can't take anymore than I already have on me. Maybe NF resigned from the church not just because of an understanding or agreement with CF, but more so because he was pizzed and was making a statement, and probably did have a few things to say to the pastor. :)

I'm having trouble believing she would call LE that night to report him missing if he had flat out told her he was leaving that day...unless her ego got in the way of her brain. Perhaps NF just couldn't force himself to tell her (even though he had threatened as much in the days/weeks prior), so when he didn't show that night she really wasn't sure what had happened. Maybe she found his wedding band a day or so later, and/or noticed some of his stuff missing and now realizes he walked.. but still wants to save face, and was enjoying the sympathy and benefits of him appearing to be a missing man, and possibly even assuming he would return in a week or so. Maybe it never dawned on her how public this would become. Remember it was some of the E group who arranged the interviews with Greta and Nancy which made this story national, not CF.

[SeattleEddie]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
Eddie I had just never considered, that HE would be afraid. Until tonight. Am just stunned; actually. And I feel just really disturbed the more I read about what others have to say about this doctrine. Just like the Jeffs; but to me this is even more disturbing. I see elements of Koresh and Jeffs and how am I to go to sleep now?
I'll continue to hope he wasnt confronted by anyone that had to do with him leaving; either his "marriage" or his "church"
I feel sorry for his kids, and hope that counseling will be sought.
Did you read the financial reports from the PDF file I posted, I saw you said you had posted links to the newsletter too....3 million is nothing to sneeze at. To me, faith has nothing to do with money. I cant stand slimy little men who pass themselves off as "preachers" I dont care what state they are in!!!
CT [/*]

I hadn't considered that either, until you mentioned it. You would be shocked to come back to Seattle and see the buildings the church is buying and renovating......and, speaking of Alki, they had a mass baptism here last summer, bus after bus after bus full of families coming to the beach to be baptized. And (now that I think of it) LOTS of security. (not something I associate with church gatherings) Lots of big men in black t-shirts w "SECURITY" on the back. I will say this for them.......they left the beach clean.

And this is not OT, as it's a piece of the puzzle.

All speculation my opinion strictly.

[K Anne]

Originally posted by Envision


Maybe "Voice of Christ". IIRC "X" stands for Christ. [/*]

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_populi

[ThruTheTrees]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
Wow I can see that; you know they have the best steamers in the world in Alki.
YUM. I love it there. Yes, last time a few yrs ago I noticed the smaller older homes all being McMansioned out, of their views, and there would be three homes one in the middle so tiny cute and old, DWARFED by HUGE newer homes, all very stylish indeed; but there was a growth battle going on. We are discussing moving back. Nite Now Eddie take care. Please keep us informed if you hear anything!!! TY IA
CT [/*]

Seattle Rocks! But bring lots of money. :)

[Cury-us Coyote]

o/t

Girl Whose Intestines Were Partially Sucked Out by Swimming Pool Drain Dies
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,340332,00.html

[K Anne]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
...I hope that no one confronted him about his decision to leave his "church" but I can sure see why he would. Right away some of their doctrine would clash with an artist...[/*]

Sorry to snip maybe out of context; the above jumped out at me. Just from the Salon.com article, it seems to me that the MHC community is full of artistic, creative, eclectic (and young) people. Maybe you can define what an artist's doctrine would be? It differs across all artists. It's possible and likely, that there is not a unifying characteristic of what "artists" believe God (or church, or bylaws) should be.

[SeattleEddie]

Originally posted by need2no



Thanks SE.

Regarding your theory, which I concur with, just a couple of additional thoughts. Considering how NF left without a trace it would seem to me he had this planned for a while, not spur of the moment. Perhaps he was just mulling it around and something happened which was the straw that broke the camel's back. Like (as you suggested) when CF said she was pregnant. NF could have shot back with how the heck can we afford another child, I can't take anymore than I already have on me. Maybe NF resigned from the church not just because of an understanding or agreement with CF, but more so because he was pizzed and was making a statement, and probably did have a few things to say to the pastor. :)

I'm having trouble believing she would call LE that night to report him missing if he had flat out told her he was leaving that day...unless her ego got in the way of her brain. Perhaps NF just couldn't force himself to tell her (even though he had threatened as much in the days/weeks prior), so when he didn't show that night she really wasn't sure what had happened. Maybe she found his wedding band a day or so later, and/or noticed some of his stuff missing and now realizes he walked.. but still wants to save face, and was enjoying the sympathy and benefits of him appearing to be a missing man, and possibly even assuming he would return in a week or so. Maybe it never dawned on her how public this would become. Remember it was some of the E group who arranged the interviews with Greta and Nancy which made this story national, not CF. [/*]

Yeah, I think that probably makes more sense, that he didn't tell her outright that night, but that she figured it out over time. There may have been denial in the first few days, but it would be unabashed deviousness to lie to LE and the public, which I doubt.

[need2no]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
Wow I can see that; you know they have the best steamers in the world in Alki.
YUM. I love it there. Yes, last time a few yrs ago I noticed the smaller older homes all being McMansioned out, of their views, and there would be three homes one in the middle so tiny cute and old, DWARFED by HUGE newer homes, all very stylish indeed; but there was a growth battle going on. We are discussing moving back. Nite Now Eddie take care. Please keep us informed if you hear anything!!! TY IA
CT [/*]



Thought you might enjoy this:

The church is renovating its 40,000-square-foot building and recently bought a similar-sized facility a block away, with plans to use both sites for services by late 2006. The two buildings encompass the first two phases of Mars Hills' growth plans.

"Phase three," pastor Mark Driscoll quipped, "is world domination."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/238406_marshill29.html

[ThruTheTrees]

Originally posted by Cury-us Coyote
o/t

Girl Whose Intestines Were Partially Sucked Out by Swimming Pool Drain Dies
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,340332,00.html [/*]

OMG, I have been seeing that headline on the local news website for the past 2 days and it just creeps me out... the whole visual of it you know. (I haven't even read the article) I have been avoiding that news website so I don't have to read the heading. And you put it here. It's like the song that never ends. Thanks. ;) That poor girl though.

[LiLMaggie]

For anyone interested I started a thread for the missing men is Seattle area.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=327196

[K Anne]

Originally posted by CAT TOY


I love the one common theme of the code with the circles he uses in his artwork. It's a common theme but I like it....it really works.

Someone could easily be "holding" him as well. But I am going to sleep easier tonight. And hope that he did Leave, because clearly he had a clash of conflict in what he believed. I believe that conflict; was this church. The timing is too significant to ignore, ppl would be ignorant to do so.

His case is an interesting case. Usually it is always from a female perspective that ends up "missing" not a males. The same rules have to apply, there is no gender bending here on this board. Those of us who have been members here a long time, know that.
This isnt a religous forum, we are discussing what interests NF had, what he believed in and what he clearly DID NOT.
Because he is MISSING. His beliefs, his art, his loves, his life, are all open to speculation, scrutiny and unfortunately public humiliation. I'd hide too if I were him......especially if you were not used to cameras, the media or the limelight. Some are.
CT [/*]

Rats. CT could you post or point back to links to this code you are talking about? I hadn't noticed any code. My first thought (without having seen) is that some graphics designers (for all I know, many) use such "code" as signature or chop or to track the number of a file within a series. Very interested to see what you're talking about...

Also, re: hiding, he strikes me as a bit of a prankster, a fun sense of humor, and unafraid of cameras, media, or limelight.

:( Sorry but I just still think he is dead.

[PerneciaJane]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
Ouch, heck yes. It does make more sense doesnt it; when you think of it that way lol. Nice to have a chuckle although after reading what they were involved in; the depths of whatever this doctrine was; to me; a cult. Significant. N2n I always thought that that toast comment meant exactly what it says. A bun in the oven, and a cryptic message at that. Unkind, uncaring, callous.
CT [/*]

Well, I took the toast thing to be a form of dry humor.

The cavities to mean he had no x-rays only cavities.

I know I am way behind in the posts but had to voice my opinion.

I do not find every little tid bit we come across in this case to be "chilling" "horrendous""callous" etc.
A lot of it only needs to be read with a little common sense.

Also I think the majority of posters are either non Christian or are not Protestant as you do not understand tithing, resigning, being disciplined etc.

If you brush up a little on the Protestant religion you would have a much easier time deciphering some of the "chilling" problems.
Especially the phrase and meaning of "uncovered"
JMO,MOO and all the jazz.

[ThruTheTrees]

Originally posted by CAT TOY


Yes it ususally differs for all artists, but his love of art in itself would be the main clashing I would think. Art is so personal, and no artist wants their art to be "muzzled" by anyone not even a church or a doctrine. Art has to be free. An artist needs to be free in his soul to produce his work, usually. If you had someone trying to restrain what you did; as an artist, I would think that you would rebel. :shrug:
If you had ppl trying to tell you how to live your life instead of how to love christ or god; those conflicts could force someone to up and leave. This man loved his work. It does not appear that he loved this church or it's teachings. In fact, he left not only his church, but his home, his job and his wife. To me that screams of internal strife. Tortured artist; being muzzled, or pinned down to a specific set of rules or beliefs. I dont know many artists that can be tamed or pinned down :D [/*]

I'm not getting the artist/religion non-connection -- the work he did for the church was proudly displayed on his freelance design website. He seemed proud of his connection to the church. It is, as K Anne mentioned, a church that, while some of its teaching seem kind of extreme and its leadership controversial, it has a lot of appeal to young people. The church may have actually been fun for him, getting to express his creativity, etc. Until something happened, maybe.

Actually, working for corporate America for 7 years since right out of college would seem like it could have a "muzzling" affect too. Plenty of "rules and beliefs" in operation there too. Some might even see corporate America as a cult of its own. But I digress..

I have wondered if there were other aspects to who he is that were in strong and direct contradiction to the church's teachings, and that spurred him to leave. We've discussed that potential here before.

[K Anne]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
When a woman is told she has to limit her potential so a man can realize his—that’s injustice.

When God-given gifts of leadership are denied because of someone’s gender—that’s injustice.

When men are told they must carry all the authority and all the responsibility for family and organizational decisions—that’s injustice.

When women are threatened verbally and treated as inferior—that’s injustice.

That my friends IS A CULT. When this is established as a DOCTRINE to FOLLOW Disguised as a "religion" that is a cult.
I think Nick is alive, and I'm going to sleep now. Talk to you tomorrow. I'm in so much pain. I hope Nicks has been relieved.
Because I see this as a man in fear, & great pain, making a huge sacrifice for probably what he believed in. I tend to believe what these ppl have blogged about; and I can see the reason for their "concern". My only concern here, is finding Nicholas Alive.
CT [/*]

That all may be injustice but as it is traditional in many parts of the world, I wouldn't call it a cult.

[SeattleEddie]

Originally posted by LiLMaggie
For anyone interested I started a thread for the missing men is Seattle area.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=327196 [/*]

thanks, LilMaggie. I will get in to this later. It really sickens me to see how many men are missing in WA state. No news, no searches, no publicity, nothing! (at least, that I can remember) It seems a man can easily disappear. I wouldn't have known about them if if weren't for this one here.

[PerneciaJane]

Originally posted by sadiemay62


You have a problem with Greek Lessons? With Latin Lessons? Something sinnister in that too? Many Churches have language schools for the parishoners and their children. Nothing odd about that. BTW, I take offense to you calling the Religion of Scientology a Cult. I can personally tell you it is not. Just because some Churches think a little differently from the old traditional Churches, it does NOT mean they are a cult.

Enough of religion please.

MOO [/*]

Isn't it amazing how someone who quite obiviously does not know diddly Squat about Religion can cause 12 pages of cult posts to be posted over and over again but still try and act like they can solve every case in the US.

If she could do that it seems there would be no unsolved cases left. JMO, MOO

[K Anne]

Originally posted by CAT TOY


Yes it ususally differs for all artists, but his love of art in itself would be the main clashing I would think. Art is so personal, and no artist wants their art to be "muzzled" by anyone not even a church or a doctrine. Art has to be free. An artist needs to be free in his soul to produce his work, usually. If you had someone trying to restrain what you did; as an artist, I would think that you would rebel. :shrug:
If you had ppl trying to tell you how to live your life instead of how to love christ or god; those conflicts could force someone to up and leave. This man loved his work. It does not appear that he loved this church or it's teachings. In fact, he left not only his church, but his home, his job and his wife. To me that screams of internal strife. Tortured artist; being muzzled, or pinned down to a specific set of rules or beliefs. I dont know many artists that can be tamed or pinned down :D [/*]

Ok. I don't see where you've got that NF's art was muzzled in any way by church or doctrine. How do you go with Leonardo and all other religious painters, sculptors, etc?

Just because someone is an artist does NOT mean they also rebel against any hint of restraint. Artists take liberties, sure. But we can still color within the lines. And both artists and people of faith are free to switch sets of rules or beliefs whenever they like -- just like any other person.

Aaaaand, he was a graphic designer. Some painters, sculptors, libertines, would argue that graphics design is not true art at all.

[K Anne]

Originally posted by CAT TOY
As one person stated, I wholeheartedly agree with this perception. I know how easy it is for young ppl to latch on to something like this; the glitz and the glam. The message is clear, Nicholas Fransisco; wasnt interested any longer. And in order to leave, he had to completely leave, everything that he was obviously against.
Either that or someone has caused him great harm.
He also must have felt it was not only a blight on his city; but on his very life.
CT [/*]

lol

CT, earlier this month I totally freaked out on the MHC content and I stopped posting negatively about it because I figured they'd come looking for me. Seriously.

I am perplexed at the timing but I'm pretty confident the church had nothing to do with his disappearance. If anything, his resigning from MHC might be considered evidence of unusual behavior. But I stop there.

I think he met with random foul play; I wish he would be found.

[K Anne]

From http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/vp_december2005.pdf:

"Scores of young, single, urban professionals, college
students, artists, and “indie rockers” are still the largest
demographic group at Mars Hill, but as men and women
meet, get married, and start families, those families comprise
a growing number."

MHC attracts artists. Scary doctrine or not, sounds like the artists stick around.

Edit: ?!!? The gay community?! Ok. ;) I'm going to bed! See you folks in the daylight...

[PerneciaJane]

Praying for the entire Francisco family :rose:
Praying for the those that are offensive in speech to your Name :rose:
Prayers for the vocally abusive on this thread :rose:

Bring Nicholas Home.

[BobbisAngel]

"Phase three," pastor Mark Driscoll quipped, "is world domination."


World domination???!!! Yep, I totally agree that this is a cult. It reminds me of Jim Jones and Jonestown. And in a way it reminds me of Manson and his followers. In a way.

These leaders bring people in to the fold who are searching for something. Usually people who have no background in Christianity. So they believe whatever they are told. They become so brainwashed that they believe everything the leader tells them. After all, he is the leader.

This leader takes things way out of context as far as women go. He says that a woman is to obey her husband but he forgets the part that says "and husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church." That doesn't mean that women are to have no part in decisions...are to populate the earth and not work outside the home. Mormons believe that they are to populate the earth. That is why they have so many kids. Most churches don't hold to that viewpoint and I have never read it in the bible. People should have as many children as they want or can afford or none if that is their wish. The earth is already over populated! I take it this guy wants everyone to have a ton of kids to build up their congregation so they can at some point dominate the world. What a foolish thought. Just that statement about world domination says a lot about this leader of this church.

At first when this church was being connected in Nick's missing I dismissed it right away. Now I'm not so sure. It isn't the wife that disappeared it was the husband. The husband makes the decisions in the family. So they would gather it was Nick's decision to take his family and leave the church. How did their leaving affect that leader? It scares me to think about it. This guy doesn't even sound like a pastor to me. He sounds more like a dictator who lays down the law and people are expected to obey him. Could some of his security guards met up with Nick after work and said that the leader wanted to talk to him for a few minutes? Did Nick go along not suspecting anything? It wouldn't surprise me at all.

[flyingfox]

Originally posted by sadiemay62


Me too! I'm done. This whole thing has finally landed where it belongs; in the toilet. Hopefully CW will put a stop to all of this in the morning. moo [/*]
well you have worked hard for it

[flyingfox]

Originally posted by Envision
Maybe Nicholas and his father will surface tomorrow. [/*]

I do find it strange that one is reported missing and the other is ?uncontactable. have to wonder if it is related....

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by flyingfox


I do find it strange that one is reported missing and the other is ?uncontactable. have to wonder if it is related.... [/*]how long has his father been "uncontactable"?

[flyingfox]

Originally posted by Fallen Angel
how long has his father been "uncontactable"? [/*]

not sure but someone tried to phone him and the number was disconected. Could have been a wrong number though.

[marshmallow]

My opinion is that they believe he pulled his own disappearing act and while they're not in contact with him they aren't too sure foul play happened, they would like him to speak up.
After wading through this thread and putting aside the static of religious choices and artistic talents, I really think his family is reacting this way because they love him and want him back safely but they believe he has the power to return on his own.
I wonder if this isn't a case of run-away-bride-ism and he's gotten himself in so deep that it's harder and harder for him to just pop up and say "I'm over here...gotcha"


I don't like judging religions, God told me not to, to each their own unless they want to replace my own with their own. God is God to me. But because it might have some bearing on his possible frame of mind:
Another angle for him resigning from his church is that may have been his only way of heading toward divorce. How does his church feel about divorce? We know how they feel about rapid procreation ..
My next break I'll read up on their divorce stance but I'm guessing I already know.