Maria Lauterbach=Thursday 03-20-08 a.m. [Archive]

henry

03-20-2008, 05:22 AM

good morning and happy 1st day of spring . . . maybe today cesar will pop out of the ground? went over to the "holiday" thread and it's not open yet - so my apologies to c/w for starting here (as we have many early morning readers).

i'd like to put out a "sos" for a missing post on the case theories thread - marcia3's post is no longer there . . . maybe it got inadvertently moved to another thread . . . so if anyone sees it - please let marcia3 know.

crap - nuttintodo & i didn't plan for the holiday thread - that means the case theories thread will be closed - so it looks like more time to theorize . . . will wait to hear how nuttintodo's schedule is next week . . . stay tuned for updates

also part 2 - rick leventhal catches up with former marine sgt. michael timmons (video) is now available for your viewing pleasure
(video is on your right blue & red box)
http://search2.foxnews.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=my_frontend&proxystylesheet=my_frontend&output=xml_no_dtd&site=story&getfields=*&filter=0&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1&q=rick+leventhal

henry

03-20-2008, 05:27 AM

note to cancan: your absence will be missed but - hah - no excuse for not checking in or at least catching up . . . helpful hint #35(?) hilton hotels in both locations have internet access :cool: in case cesar is found during your trip.

henry

03-20-2008, 05:35 AM

oops . . . almost forgot to copy over c/w's message from last nite - 3-19-08 10:08 p.m.: quote

Sorry, had to do some clean up.

You MUST follow copyright rules. You MUST have written permission from owner of photos to use them on another site.
NO PERSONAL INFO should be posted for the safety of the people whose info you post.

caejde

03-20-2008, 08:37 AM

Morning all!

caejde

03-20-2008, 08:58 AM

Bringing over a post last night from nuttintodo.

nuttintodo
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Under a Carolina blue sky!
Posts: 3208

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by caejde
Ok, I took a couple pictures of the ATM that Cesar used as well. I forgot my camera but I took these with my cell phone. I didn't get out of the truck and I was on my home from the gym. Sorry if they didn't turn out well.

This one is a head on shot of the ATM.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v.../0319081830.jpg

This is a side shot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v.../0319081831.jpg [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TY caejde! You did good!

Now there's Wendy's, Bojangles, the convenience store, Michaelangelo's there. What other stores are there?

Behind the ATM there is Food Lion, Johnson Drugs, Moka Joes, Dominoes, the Japanese place, and I think a Dollar General. And if you are standing right in front of the ATM, the Cash Points is to the right of that closer to the gas station/Wendy's.

Just asking about when the ATM starts recording because it looks like when Maria and Cesar are using it, it started recording as they were walking up.

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by caejde
Bringing over a post last night from nuttintodo.

nuttintodo
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Under a Carolina blue sky!
Posts: 3208

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by caejde
Ok, I took a couple pictures of the ATM that Cesar used as well. I forgot my camera but I took these with my cell phone. I didn't get out of the truck and I was on my home from the gym. Sorry if they didn't turn out well.

This one is a head on shot of the ATM.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v.../0319081830.jpg

This is a side shot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v.../0319081831.jpg [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TY caejde! You did good!

Now there's Wendy's, Bojangles, the convenience store, Michaelangelo's there. What other stores are there?

Behind the ATM there is Food Lion, Johnson Drugs, Moka Joes, Dominoes, the Japanese place, and I think a Dollar General. And if you are standing right in front of the ATM, the Cash Points is to the right of that closer to the gas station/Wendy's.

Just asking about when the ATM starts recording because it looks like when Maria and Cesar are using it, it started recording as they were walking up. [/*]

TY caejde for the pictures, you really did great! Donna is going to ask her bank person about when they start recording and will let us know what he says later on.

Also my oldest DD was reading the board and she brought up another thought.

Did you ever have or do a recall list while you were AD?

My DD seems to think there is also a possibility that both CAL and Maria knew each other's address prior to 12/14/07 because of a recall list.

For all who don't know about a recall list, each AD Marine, in their respective unit, company has to provide a name, address, current phone numbers, etc. so if they are ever recalled, they can be contacted and then contact each other (you know something like a prayer chain, etc.). She says her hubby has his list and this list is to be carried in their wallets at all times.

jmo

Good morning all! :seeya:

sexxytazz

03-20-2008, 09:19 AM

Adding this for anybody unaware...

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/index.php?

For the weekend, log in under the above link and click weekend forum.

Have a great Easter everyone!

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Like a telephone tree, we used to have them one place I worked in case of emergency, you would be resp for calling the next 2 people under you on the list. Like that? we didn't had addresses tho but ours was for a different purpose. [/*]

Yes AB, very similar indeed. AD Marines also have to provide their current addresses in case they have to be picked up, etc.

My husband has one at his work on the base too.

JMO

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Sami
I hope nuttin will re-post her good links from yesterday. I wanted to look at them some more.

G'morning, everyone. Easter is almost here. :rose: [/*]

Which ones Sami? I have a little time right now.

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 09:28 AM

Side of house taken yesterday:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/sideoflaureanhouse31908.jpg

Back view from the former Alander residence towards the Laurean's:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/BackviewofLaureanhouse31908.jpg

caejde

03-20-2008, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

TY caejde for the pictures, you really did great! Donna is going to ask her bank person about when they start recording and will let us know what he says later on.

Also my oldest DD was reading the board and she brought up another thought.

Did you ever have or do a recall list while you were AD?

My DD seems to think there is also a possibility that both CAL and Maria knew each other's address prior to 12/14/07 because of a recall list.

For all who don't know about a recall list, each AD Marine, in their respective unit, company has to provide a name, address, current phone numbers, etc. so if they are ever recalled, they can be contacted and then contact each other (you know something like a prayer chain, etc.). She says her hubby has his list and this list is to be carried in their wallets at all times.

jmo

Good morning all! :seeya: [/*]

Yes, we did have a recall list. Address, cell phone, home phone. And if anything changed, you would have to notify the Platoon Sergeant so they could get changed and then reprinted and passed out...and they changed quite often.

caejde

03-20-2008, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by caejde

Yes, we did have a recall list. Address, cell phone, home phone. And if anything changed, you would have to notify the Platoon Sergeant so they could get changed and then reprinted and passed out...and they changed quite often. [/*]

Also, just wanted to add even Reservists would have a recall list. When my husband got out of the Marines and joined the National Guard, they had recall lists in the event they had to get called up.

martha

03-20-2008, 09:39 AM

Thanks Henry I can always count on you I hope your family knows how very much we enjoy you being on here to keep us up to date. I will be checking in all day and the week end also. Just hoping to hear that cl is in jail. I hope BGB will tell us how her daughter is doing.:rose:

martha

03-20-2008, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Sami
I hope nuttin will re-post her good links from yesterday. I wanted to look at them some more.

G'morning, everyone. Easter is almost here. :rose: [/*] Hi Sami or you going to have a big easter? I think my children will come and we will cook out. Always good for them to come after church. have a very good day:rose:

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by caejde

Also, just wanted to add even Reservists would have a recall list. When my husband got out of the Marines and joined the National Guard, they had recall lists in the event they had to get called up. [/*]

I didn't even think about the Reservists. TY caejde!

When my soon to be ex-sil got out, he went into the Reserves and was recalled to AD in December after he got out in July. He went back to Iraq for the third time.

caejde

03-20-2008, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I didn't even think about the Reservists. TY caejde!

When my soon to be ex-sil got out, he went into the Reserves and was recalled to AD in December after he got out in July. He went back to Iraq for the third time. [/*]

I wasn't either until I remembered seeing my husband's recall list from the Guard. We've dealt with alot of branches of military. My husband wanted to stay Marines, but there were no reserve units close by-nearest was like 3 hours. So he joined Army National Guard and went to Iraq. When we moved to PA, he went Air National Guard. And now he's out all together.

henry

03-20-2008, 09:58 AM

i think i gave lyn t some bad advice - i thought you could post links to someone's info - if it was public knowledge and on the web . . . but, correct me if i'm wrong, one cannot reprint that info here, except for one paragraph . . . or one can paraphrase the info? just want to make sure i've got it right. also, can that person's name be typed here? i've been reading up on that college blogging site that's getting way out of hand . . . no link yet . . . so jmo

Nikki77058

03-20-2008, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Side of house taken yesterday:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/sideoflaureanhouse31908.jpg

Back view from the former Alander residence towards the Laurean's:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/BackviewofLaureanhouse31908.jpg [/*]

Notice the dark clouds rolling above - it gives the house an even eerier feel. In response to previous posters, I personally could not live in that house - the backyard gives me the creeps.

IMO

henry

03-20-2008, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

I think my son is going to stick w/ the guard too although that doesn't guarantee he will not be deployed. He decided no amount of bonus was worth being away from his family. I hear reservists are coming out of bootcamp and getting deployed to Iraq and Kosovo in 1-2 mos time. He has 2 friends who are going to Korea and 2 who are going to Italy. who knows what his future will hold. I know he can't wait till graduation day tho.
4.5 more weeks. anyone else have any other news I should know? TIA. [/*]

i hope you watched that video link above . . . this guy was bummed out after getting back home to civilian life . . . and went into the reserves to maintain the friendship, camaraderie, etc. . . . very heartwarming

caejde

03-20-2008, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by henry

i hope you watched that video link above . . . this guy was bummed out after getting back home to civilian life . . . and went into the reserves to maintain the friendship, camaraderie, etc. . . . very heartwarming [/*]

There's definitely days that my husband and I both miss it...it's hard to describe.

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by henry
i think i gave lyn t some bad advice - i thought you could post links to someone's info - if it was public knowledge and on the web . . . but, correct me if i'm wrong, one cannot reprint that info here, except for one paragraph . . . or one can paraphrase the info? just want to make sure i've got it right. also, can that person's name be typed here? i've been reading up on that college blogging site that's getting way out of hand . . . no link yet . . . so jmo [/*]

Here's what CW posted last night after maintenance:

Coldwater
Administrator

Registered: Aug 2002
Location:
Posts: 401

Added note

Sorry, had to do some clean up.
You MUST follow copyright rules. You MUST have written permission from owner of photos to use them on another site.
NO PERSONAL INFO should be posted for the safety of the people whose info you post.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-19-2008 10:08 PM

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So this holds true as to the neighbor of the Laurean's.

jmo

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I didn't even think about the Reservists. TY caejde!

When my soon to be ex-sil got out, he went into the Reserves and was recalled to AD in December after he got out in July. He went back to Iraq for the third time. [/*]

Awww man, you could have pm'd me to give me a heads up that Wanda had moved. But nooooo, I had to find out this morning the old fashioned way - reading thru last night's thread!

:cuss:

(J/K)

henry

03-20-2008, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by AnnieBean
I was just wondering, especially to nuttin and henry- how come we have to keep submitting things to Sutherland? If he had a link to the IS boards he could read the theories thread now and as it evolves over time, cos we DO come up with some good ideas here IMO. He wouldn't have to even be a member, he can just read them. Did anyone suggest to him that he could do that too?
Also print the theories thread out (its not even 1 whole page long right now) and mail to to him as well- good commode reading if he's strapped for time :D jus thinkin'.

AB [/*]

hah! can you imagine the ribbing he'd get if they ever backtracked on his computer or one of the investigators asked . . . where'd you get that theory from! but, hopefully, his dw or so is doing some reading . . . i know my dh has me check out some stuff for him at home :cool: spy glasses on & ready!!!

edit . . . i'm off doing errands for a few (hours . . . eek)

Marcia3

03-20-2008, 10:44 AM

Good morning all! Typing really fast 'cuz I'm afraid CW will lock the threads and move everything over to the holiday board before I click Submit!

Henry, thx for asking for anyone to be on the lookout for my theory that I posted on that thread. I didn't ask for it to be removed, but maybe it just got caught up in the big net...

If I get time, I'll repost my theory later today.

I'll be in and out all weekend, so Happy Spring, and Happy Easter to all here just in case I don't remember to say that later!

We need an Easter bunny icon...so instead how about a chickie icon?

:chicken:

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

Awww man, you could have pm'd me to give me a heads up that Wanda had moved. But nooooo, I had to find out this morning the old fashioned way - reading thru last night's thread!

:cuss:

(J/K) [/*]

Sorry cryme! hammer me, I can take it! LOL

strick10

03-20-2008, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Sami
I forgot to ask this:

Could anybody here explain the Article 90 to me? I was researching about what might happen to Cesar if the Baby had proven that he had committed adultery, and the Article 90 was mentioned. JMO [/*]

I believe IIRC Article 90 regards the asault and willfully disobeying a superior commissioned officer......Adultery is article 134 if I'm not misaken.

caejde

03-20-2008, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by strick10

I believe IIRC Article 90 regards the asault and willfully disobeying a superior commissioned officer......Adultery is article 134 if I'm not misaken. [/*]

Yep, you're right...Article 90 is Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior comissioned officer.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm90.htm

And adultery falls under the 134-2

strick10

03-20-2008, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Sami

Thank you, strick. I thought that was posted here at one time, but couldn't find it.

I did find this link -- and some interesting info, imo: http://www.29palms.usmc.mil/base/safety/eo/shpunishment.asp

[/*]

Definately interesting info. caedje posted a link upthread that is a pretty good one regarding UCMJ as well.

strick10

03-20-2008, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I clicked on the 'Sexual Harassment' link on the left panel, and found this description:

http://www.29palms.usmc.mil/base/safety/eo/shrr.asp [/*]

I'm sorry Sami but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 12:08 PM

Caejde, did you remove your pictures of the ATM from Photobucket? TIA

caejde

03-20-2008, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Caejde, did you remove your pictures of the ATM from Photobucket? TIA [/*]

No, I didn't. They are still there. Are they not showing up?

caejde

03-20-2008, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by old_lady
An article32 hearing has been compared to a grand jury in the civilian world.

Can an article 32 hearing bring about any charges that may be shown from testimony and evidence? [/*]

That is what the Article 32 is. It's like a grand jury in the civilian world. Testimony is given, evidence is shown. Based on that, it would be determined who faces charges and on what. And I believe that is when they are formally charged. Then it goes to court martial-which is like a court preceding in civilian sector. They have a jury-the type of court martial determines who makes up the jury.

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by caejde

No, I didn't. They are still there. Are they not showing up? [/*]

Nope. :(

caejde

03-20-2008, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Nope. :( [/*]

Hmmm, weird because it just did for me.

Try it now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/caejde/0319081831.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/caejde/0319081830.jpg

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Hmmm, weird because it just did for me.

Try it now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/caejde/0319081831.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/caejde/0319081830.jpg [/*]

I don't know what happened earlier. When I tried to go there earlier, I got a thing saying the picture had been removed by photobucket and the same happened with the second too.

Whew, I'm glad they are still there! TYVM

caejde

03-20-2008, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

Very interesting. So if there wasn't enough evidence for a charge of rape, there may have been enough, with the DNA of the baby to charge Cesar with adultery or lying. Maybe perjury even. I don't think Maria would have been charged as she is claiming rape even if it can't be proven.

Interesting the article 32 was to be in December and that would be when the baby was due, according to Maria's uncle.

He said Maria's mother was going to see Maria around the 24th, for the birth IIRC.

I think they were waiting for that DNA to schedule the actual date of the hearing.

jmoo [/*]

Yes, if the baby was proven to be his and they can't charge rape, there could have been other charges. I don't think Maria was due in December. If she was due in December she would have been having weekly appointments starting back in November. That wasn't the case...her next apointment after 11/26 was 12/26. Based on what the Navy docs said her conception date was, she was due February...unless that due date was changed at her 20 week sonogram....all just my beliefs though.

caejde

03-20-2008, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I don't know what happened earlier. When I tried to go there earlier, I got a thing saying the picture had been removed by photobucket and the same happened with the second too.

Whew, I'm glad they are still there! TYVM [/*]

You're welcome!

caejde

03-20-2008, 12:28 PM

**Edited...didn't mean to submit twice.

Marcia3

03-20-2008, 12:29 PM

CANDYKISSES

03-20-2008, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I'm just always amazed (and proud) at how strongly the MC speaks out again sexual harassment/assault/rape, etc.

I think they have plenty of procedures in place that sound almost more fair to the supposed victim than to the supposed suspect.

And though I'm not getting at anything, it always makes me wonder if something went wrong that Maria seemed to struggle with her treatment.

Even Sexual Harassment seems to be structured so that anyone trying to remain stellar would be afraid to so much as speak sexually or tease or anything else, much less commit adultery, if he/she wanted to maintain that high status within the Corps.

This whole thing is just so confusing. :shrug: [/*]

IF her mother and uncle were right in what they thought about her being bipolar, that could explain much.

That's why many posters here have tried to explain that Sami. If you read up on some of the false rape allegations, you will find a coincidence of behavior disorders/mental illness in the victimology of acquaintence rape allegations IMO.

I believe the spoken word of Mary Lauterbach in the early stages and further believe she and Peter probably know in the back of their minds by now. Especially after she thought this was almost a stranger and that Maria had never been social with Cesar period, and now to have the friends telling the story of a relationship, they must know what they were hearing and what was happening were probably not the same thing IMO.

I believe just as cajede stated about her former roomate, that the military is giving more than a fair shake to alleged victims of rape much more often than not. The military is an organization founded on the principles of discipline and organization and I see them following all the way through with this allegation from my POV. When you do that, someone will be charged IMO, maybe one, maybe both, but NCIS only CONFIRMED Maria as possibly facing a discharge IIRC.

It's also been explained that the ARTICLE 32 is more of an advantage to the accused with a grand jury is more of an advantage to the prosecutor.

ALL JMO

:read:

CANDYKISSES

03-20-2008, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Yes, if the baby was proven to be his and they can't charge rape, there could have been other charges. I don't think Maria was due in December. If she was due in December she would have been having weekly appointments starting back in November. That wasn't the case...her next apointment after 11/26 was 12/26. Based on what the Navy docs said her conception date was, she was due February...unless that due date was changed at her 20 week sonogram....all just my beliefs though. [/*]

ITA Caejde, and now knowing they were unable to determine gender in the state autopsy, we are left believing they relied on something scientific and that would signal a sonogram for me EVEN THO we know they can be wrong too.

Mrs. Renner gave birth on March 4th, and they allegedly started out in the same parenting class IIRC, so IMO I'm thinking the February due date was closer to correct, but that is JMO and nothing more.

I agree with the poster who thought Mary and Peter were planning to come and try to finalize an adoption plan for Maria. I further believe Maria was feeling trapped by then. The military had presented her with some kind of evidence that had her readjusting her statement to the baby not being a product of rape. IF YOU BELIEVE PETER, he said she tried to drop the allegations and was told she couldn't do that. She must have known she was facing a possible discharge and she wanted to keep the baby. Things weren't adding up and she wanted her baby. I believe the stress factor became so high she saw no other way out other than leaving thus the statement by her friend Jessica.

ALL JMO.

:shrug: :(

She was backed into a corner and it was all going to come to a head soon from my POV.

strick10

03-20-2008, 01:03 PM

caejde

03-20-2008, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

I believe the Navy docs were wrong. That is why she wasn't having weekly appointments. I believe she was due the end of December and no later then the beginning of January. I believe the baby is Cesar's.

jmoo [/*]

It is very possible the doctors were wrong...it happens. But it would have showed up on the 20 week sonogram. My doctors gave me a due date of Jan 9. Based on the sonogram they changed it to the 18th. But then it was changed back as they said that according to my LMP and the internal sonogram-which was more accurate than 20 week, it was changed to Jan. 10. But if at Maria's 20 week sonogram, if they saw a reason to change the due date from February to January, they would have. She would have had her sonogram around October. And if anything was changed, her appointments would have changed accordingly. And if she was due in January, she would have been going every 2 weeks...so she would have had an appointment like second week in December. But she did not have an appointment til 12/26. So that makes me believe she was really due in February. After her 12/26 appointment she would have been put on every other week appointments.

caejde

03-20-2008, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

I don't believe just because they started out in the same parenting class they were the same gestational age. It is not that far from the end of December or beginning of January to March 4th.

And doctors can be off two weeks either way, no?

jmoo [/*]

Whatever due date you are given, they say it can be 2 weeks before or 2 weeks after that date. Most first time mothers go past their due date. All JMO though.

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by strick10

The sexual harassment policies really got going in the late 80's early 90's. And yes there are many that afraid to speak (stellar or not), moreso men, in a sexual nature or tease for fear the other person may take whatever is said as offensive/harassment. For awhile it was advised that if a Marine felt the conversation was getting a little iffey that the words "red zone" be verbalized to warn the other person. Don't know if they still do that. I may add it's just not only males that have to watch what they say, females too. [/*]

Anyone remember Tailhook?

That's when they really got the ball rolling. I believe it was during Bush, Sr. when the all the policies came out.

JMO

strick10

03-20-2008, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by caejde

It is very possible the doctors were wrong...it happens. But it would have showed up on the 20 week sonogram. My doctors gave me a due date of Jan 9. Based on the sonogram they changed it to the 18th. But then it was changed back as they said that according to my LMP and the internal sonogram-which was more accurate than 20 week, it was changed to Jan. 10. But if at Maria's 20 week sonogram, if they saw a reason to change the due date from February to January, they would have. She would have had her sonogram around October. And if anything was changed, her appointments would have changed accordingly. And if she was due in January, she would have been going every 2 weeks...so she would have had an appointment like second week in December. But she did not have an appointment til 12/26. So that makes me believe she was really due in February. After her 12/26 appointment she would have been put on every other week appointments. [/*]

Question caedje since you had your child(ren) way after I had mine and I've only had one pregnant Marine under my wing and just can't remember. Anyhow....when you were in did they still allow pregnant Marines to work 1/2 days during their last month of pregnancy? When I had my kiddos I was not allowed that but I remember years later that it became almost a common place for the 1/2 days but can't remember if it was a given or if it was under a doctors order.

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

Do we even have all the medical records? The parents of Maria are trying to get that now. We don't know she wasn't there the second week of December. She was said to be 2cm dilated and having some contractions.
Who said she was 8 months pregnant when she died? If that is true, she was due the end of December or the beginning of January.

jmo [/*]

How do we know she was 2cm dilated? She would have had to be seen by an OB/GYN doc or a doc in an ER and been told she was dilated 2cm by a doctor.

I would certainly think that NCIS/OCSD would have been able to find out if she had been seen by any medical personnel prior to her disappearance since they had recieved the information that Maria had not been seen since her 11/26 appointment.

JMO

caejde

03-20-2008, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Question caedje since you had your child(ren) way after I had mine and I've only had one pregnant Marine under my wing and just can't remember. Anyhow....when you were in did they still allow pregnant Marines to work 1/2 days during their last month of pregnancy? When I had my kiddos I was not allowed that but I remember years later that it became almost a common place for the 1/2 days but can't remember if it was a given or if it was under a doctors order. [/*]

Yes, they do half days. And I believe it starts at 36 weeks.

caejde

03-20-2008, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

Do we even have all the medical records? The parents of Maria are trying to get that now. We don't know she wasn't there the second week of December. She was said to be 2cm dilated and having some contractions.
Who said she was 8 months pregnant when she died? If that is true, she was due the end of December or the beginning of January.

jmo [/*]

No, we don't have medical records. And I'm basing my answer/opinion on what I know and my own experiences.

There were conflicting reports on how far along she was. I had read/heard 7 1/2 and also 8 1/2. If she was 8 months when she died, she still had another month to go...which would put it closer to the middle of January. I heard two different due dates-Jan 15 and Feb 15.

caejde

03-20-2008, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

How do we know she was 2cm dilated? She would have had to be seen by an OB/GYN doc or a doc in an ER and been told she was dilated 2cm by a doctor.

I would certainly think that NCIS/OCSD would have been able to find out if she had been seen by any medical personnel prior to her disappearance since they had recieved the information that Maria had not been seen since her 11/26 appointment.

JMO [/*]

They dont' start checking you for dilation until 36 weeks when they do the Group * test. And then they don't check you again until like 38 weeks. When I had my Group * I was dilated but still didnt' have my son until 2 days after his due date. In the press conference it was made known she had an appointment 11/26 but there was no mention of any other appointments until the 12/26.

strick10

03-20-2008, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Yes, they do half days. And I believe it starts at 36 weeks. [/*]

Thought so. I got jipped again! Got 30 vice 45 days of maternity leave and no 1/2 days! :D Thanks for verifying this.

Howiefan

03-20-2008, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Yes, they do half days. And I believe it starts at 36 weeks. [/*]do we know if Maria worked at all on the 14th.. I totally have forgotten

caejde

03-20-2008, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Thought so. I got jipped again! Got 30 vice 45 days of maternity leave and no 1/2 days! :D Thanks for verifying this. [/*]

Poor strick. You know I didn't want my half days. I was ok. My Gunny let me wear PT gear instead of cammies-because I was constantly hot and being in Hawaii didn't help any. I worked with nothing but guys so they were all very scared when I was still at work the day I was due. They wouldn't let me move!

caejde

03-20-2008, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan
do we know if Maria worked at all on the 14th.. I totally have forgotten [/*]

Yes. They said she was released at noon to attend a Christmas party but attendance was not mandatory.

Kel65

03-20-2008, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Thought so. I got jipped again! Got 30 vice 45 days of maternity leave and no 1/2 days! :D Thanks for verifying this. [/*]

That is a nice benefit.

Howiefan

03-20-2008, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Yes. They said she was released at noon to attend a Christmas party but attendance was not mandatory. [/*]
would Maria have been on half days only at this point...?

Nikki77058

03-20-2008, 01:49 PM

One thing that still strikes me as very odd is how her mother talked about her after her death. Actually, I'm not sure that her mom knew she was dead when she made the statements but I have read several statements where she called Maria a "compulsive liar" and described her as being bipolar. I'm confused at what significance her mother thought that would play by being made public. IMO, it seems very callouse.

Additionally, if CL and his wife spoke with an attorney the day before the wife went to the police - I assume he told the same story to the attorney that was told to the police - that Maria committed suicide. Why then would the attorney tell him (or them) they he (or they) would be facing the death penalty? Since when can you be executed for witnessing someone's suicide? Though I realize that is not the truth, I don't understand why the attorney would have told them that.

Just curious...

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

That's what I mean. The uncle said it. We don't have her medical records. Does an investigative agency even have them? I would think HIPAA applies to military personal, but don't know for sure. That's all I am saying.:shrug:

All imo [/*]

You are right, none of us have access to Maria's records, and neither would NCIS or OCSD.

You know NCIS could have contacted the Naval Hospital and asked simply when was her last physical visit to the OB/GYN clinic and when was her last appointment and nothing more.

I would hope that once the statement was made that Maria told the Uncle (and/or her mother) that she was having contractions and was 2cm dilated, NCIS contacted Naval again and asked if Maria was seen at any other time outside of her normal OB appointments or NCIS simply chose not to. Who knows? :shrug:

jmo

Kel65

03-20-2008, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

I think it was possible for her to be checked out somewhere other then the military doctors or ERs if she didn't want anyone to know. :shrug:

At that point, I think I might have gone somewhere else myself.

Of course this is speculation.

jmoo [/*]

I suppose she could have but TRICARE Prime (military health entitlement) would not have covered the cost of the visit (if it wasn't an emergency), if it was not authorized by her Primary Care Manager(PCM) through a documented referral. All active duty members are covered under TRICARE Prime, which is run like a health maintenance organization (HMO).

caejde

03-20-2008, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan

would Maria have been on half days only at this point...? [/*]

If she was due in February, probably not. If she was due January, then possibly. But just my opinion based on my experiences.

Jan Powell

03-20-2008, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by caejde

That is what the Article 32 is. It's like a grand jury in the civilian world. Testimony is given, evidence is shown. Based on that, it would be determined who faces charges and on what. And I believe that is when they are formally charged. Then it goes to court martial-which is like a court preceding in civilian sector. They have a jury-the type of court martial determines who makes up the jury. [/*]

IIRC a pending Article 32 was mentioned in the press, and I understood it was Maria facing an Article 32 hearing. Could that be possible because of this?

In early November, she "readjusted" her statement to say "she no longer believed the pregnancy was a result of the two incidents she reported as sexual assaults," Ciccarelli said.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=11404493

Kel65

03-20-2008, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

Through her uncle who knows other doctors for a free exam? I can go to an emergency room and tell them I have no ID or insurance and am having contractions. I could give a fake name, and they will see me. I could just lie and be seen. I even think maybe I could go to a planned parenthood office and not give any personal information. Just saying...

This is way out there but where there is a will there is a way.........

jmoo [/*]

I doubt her uncle, who resides and practices in Louisville, has many contacts for freebies within the medical community in eastern NC.

I guess she could have lied about not having medical insurance, but wouldn't that be considered fraud?

If she told them she was active duty, I would bet you money they would file a claim with TRICARE, whether she stated she had insurance or not. Jacksonville, NC is a very, very military town. A lot of the medical professionals there are retired or former military. They know the TRICARE system (since a good part of their patient base are military family members) and would know that an active duty person is covered under TRICARE Prime.

I just don't think it would be as easy as you think to pull that fast one in regard to alternative medical care in Jacksonville. IMO

caejde

03-20-2008, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Nikki77058
One thing that still strikes me as very odd is how her mother talked about her after her death. Actually, I'm not sure that her mom knew she was dead when she made the statements but I have read several statements where she called Maria a "compulsive liar" and described her as being bipolar. I'm confused at what significance her mother thought that would play by being made public. IMO, it seems very callouse.

Additionally, if CL and his wife spoke with an attorney the day before the wife went to the police - I assume he told the same story to the attorney that was told to the police - that Maria committed suicide. Why then would the attorney tell him (or them) they he (or they) would be facing the death penalty? Since when can you be executed for witnessing someone's suicide? Though I realize that is not the truth, I don't understand why the attorney would have told them that.

Just curious... [/*]

Hey Nikki! Maria's mother, Mary, said that all of her stuff was taken out of context. She has said that she sent a 3 page email to the detectives here in Onslow Co. She said she put in anything that may help find Maria. But there is a video of her saying that they had suspected Maria was bipolar and was a loner and such. I don't have that video link but it is on the board somewhere.

As for Cesar telling the lawyers his tale of the suicide story. He either gave them more info or the lawyer was telling him what could happen if authorities didn't believe him. JMO.

caejde

03-20-2008, 02:12 PM

caejde

03-20-2008, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

I doubt her uncle, who resides and practices in Louisville, has many contacts for freebies within the medical community in eastern NC.

I guess she could have lied about having medical insurance, but wouldn't that be considered fraud?

If she told them she was active duty, I would bet you money they would file a claim with TRICARE, whether she stated she had insurance or not. Jacksonville, NC is a very, very military town. A lot of the medical professionals there are retired or former military. They know the TRICARE system (since a good part of their patient base are military family members) and would know that an active duty person is covered under TRICARE Prime.

I just don't think it would be as easy as you think to pull that fast one in regard to alternative medical care in Jacksonville. IMO [/*]

I guess she could have gone to the Health Department or to another hospital/doctor outside of Jacksonville but I don't know. Why go through all that trouble? Sounds a little pointless to me. I don't know. Personally, I don't think she was dilated.

Kel65

03-20-2008, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by caejde

I guess she could have gone to the Health Department or to another hospital/doctor outside of Jacksonville but I don't know. Why go through all that trouble? Sounds a little pointless to me. I don't know. Personally, I don't think she was dilated. [/*]

I agree.

Howiefan

03-20-2008, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by caejde

If she was due in February, probably not. If she was due January, then possibly. But just my opinion based on my experiences. [/*]
thanks I kind of think she was due in Jan.. Are there many instances where marines only due half days if not pregnant?
just trying to figure out if she was already on half days or if this was a special due to the Christmas party?
thanks just my curiosity and opinion

Jan Powell

03-20-2008, 02:21 PM

caejde

03-20-2008, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan

thanks I kind of think she was due in Jan.. Are there many instances where marines only due half days if not pregnant?
just trying to figure out if she was already on half days or if this was a special due to the Christmas party?
thanks just my curiosity and opinion [/*]

Oh yea. In my unit we would have "Aloha Fridays" and get off at noon...as long as there was nothing going on of course and it varied due to what you had going on in your work section. And that was the whole unit getting off at noon. The Marine Corps Ball is another instance. We would get off early on the day of the ball and then report to whereever the ball was held. And if there were special functions-like work section get togethers, etc...we would get off early. But it all was based on if the work was done. And it wouldn't happen all the time of course.

caejde

03-20-2008, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by old_lady
Now that I think about it, if she was seen by another doctor within the plan, how would the other doctors seeing her even be aware of that? [/*]

Not quite sure I'm following you...

Kel65

03-20-2008, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by old_lady
Now that I think about it, if she was seen by another doctor within the plan, how would the other doctors seeing her even be aware of that? [/*]

The military healthcare system is automated. It would have shown up in what they call Composite Health Care Systehm (CHCS). IMO

caejde

03-20-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

The military healthcare system is automated. It would have shown up in what they call Composite Health Care Systehm (CHCS). IMO [/*]

I thought that's what she was talking about but wasn't sure. But yep, any doctor would have access to her records even up in Labor & Delivery.

henry

03-20-2008, 02:31 PM

i'm starting to lean that she had been checked somewhere else 'cause, iirc, she would not have been eligible for a sonogram thru the military - correct? yet, she knew the sex of the baby & named him - correct? jmo, of course, if the 2 corrects are correct . . . okay?

CanCan

03-20-2008, 02:35 PM

:seeya: Old lady - You've got MAIL.

Regina.Lampert

03-20-2008, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

IIRC a pending Article 32 was mentioned in the press, and I understood it was Maria facing an Article 32 hearing. Could that be possible because of this?

In early November, she "readjusted" her statement to say "she no longer believed the pregnancy was a result of the two incidents she reported as sexual assaults," Ciccarelli said.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=11404493 [/*]

Here's the link Lynn has provided on the Article 32 hearing and it's subject:

Lynn Gweeny
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 3769

QUESTION: Mr. Ciccarelli, can you shed light on when she was supposed to testify or be involved again in the process?

CICCARELLI: Discussions were underway to have an Article 32. For those not familiar with an Article 32, it's equivalent to a civilian grand jury. Fact finding. Determine if there's enough information from the investigation to go forward with a court-martial. That's what was scheduled. An Article 32 on the sexual assault investigation.

QUESTION: Was there a date was there a date ...

CICCARELLI: It was during December.

QUESTION: During the time she disappeared?

CICCARELLI: Yes.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../11/ywt.01.html

__________________

Kel65

03-20-2008, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by henry
i'm starting to lean that she had been checked somewhere else 'cause, iirc, she would not have been eligible for a sonogram thru the military - correct? yet, she knew the sex of the baby & named him - correct? jmo, of course, if the 2 corrects are correct . . . okay? [/*]

I don't think it is accurate that she wasn't eligible for a sonogram through military healthcare. Both of my pregnancies were through the military healthcare system at two different military treatment facilities. I had sonograms with both and was told the sex at 14 weeks and then resonogramed at 20 weeks.

caejde

03-20-2008, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by henry
i'm starting to lean that she had been checked somewhere else 'cause, iirc, she would not have been eligible for a sonogram thru the military - correct? yet, she knew the sex of the baby & named him - correct? jmo, of course, if the 2 corrects are correct . . . okay? [/*]

Military does do 20 week sonograms so she would have gotten one of those. But I do not believe they do internal sonograms at the initial confirmation visit.

BarbraAllen

03-20-2008, 02:40 PM

Hi everyone, I wanted to say hello and thank those who have provided so much information these last few days: the pictures, the links, etc. I have had computer problems and am not near finished reading yesterday's thread but very impressive, all the work you all have done!

GentleBreeze, I saw your daughter had to be readmitted to the hospital, am still thinking of her and you and your family. I so hope all will go well and she will quickly turn the corner to full recovery.

And now back to reading!

henry

03-20-2008, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

I don't think it is accurate that she wasn't eligible for a sonogram through military healthcare. Both of my pregnancies were through the military healthcare system at two different military treatment facilities. I had sonograms with both and was told the sex at 14 weeks and then resonogramed at 20 weeks. [/*]

thanks!!!!! cause i never really thought she went anywhere else . . . unless some individual on the medical side was a friend of cesar's and therefore she might feel uncomfortable going there . . . just trying to piece things together . . . jmo

edit: would a sonogram at 20 weeks determine/show the sex?

caejde

03-20-2008, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by henry

thanks!!!!! cause i never really thought she went anywhere else . . . unless some individual on the medical side was a friend of cesar's and therefore she might feel uncomfortable going there . . . just trying to piece things together . . . jmo

edit: would a sonogram at 20 weeks determine/show the sex? [/*]

Yes...as long as the baby was cooperating!

Kel65

03-20-2008, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Yes...as long as the baby was cooperating! [/*]

My at 14 wks did and both were correct. Like Caejde said, the baby needs to cooperate.

CanCan

03-20-2008, 02:53 PM

HENRY- Thanks for the kind words. I'll check in if I can, and if I see CL, I'll pull a Gomer Pyle and holler, "Citizens arrest....citizens arrest!!!" :D

Kel65

03-20-2008, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I do think she was being pushed toward disavowing that Cesar was the father, and using some info from the doctor for that -- and if I were Maria, I would have definitely sought out a 'third' opinion, especially if i were certain that Cesar had to be the father.

Like I've posted before, my interest in this case has been enhanced by my own experience with the military doctors when i was pregnant. I knew beyond any doubt exactly when I got pregnant, so when the 'experts' told me my date was wrong, (based on my last period), I knew that I was right (regardless of the period), and they were not.

I had three periods while pregnant, two normal and one very small one.

It took the birth of my son to prove that I was right, though. And I think that's what Maria knew, too. JMO

ETA: It would seem that Cesar also knew the Baby was gonna 'spill the beans'. :mad: [/*]

As a LCPL, I doubt she had money to pay for additional opinion out of her pocket, if TRICARE wasn't going to cover it. So, I tend to think she did not go out on her own to have one done. JMO

henry

03-20-2008, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

My at 14 wks did and both were correct. Like Caejde said, the baby needs to cooperate. [/*]

okay (don't tell my son i didn't know that).

but i'm still trying to figure out the 2 cm part - if she was harrassed and stressed . . . maybe she did find a private ob/gyn for a couple of checkups so as to avoid any person that may have worked there . . . just a thought & jmo

can can - we'll practice our dance & yell golly!

Kel65

03-20-2008, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Sami

We really don't know where Maria might have gone for help, though.

Planned Parenthood is really good for prenatal care AND for assistance with Adoption preparation.

I have no idea -- just surmising that I would have thought someone would have been advising her if, indeed, she was thinking about adoption. [/*]

Yes, hopefully in additionalto family members (i.e. Mary and Uncle Pete) advising her on the adoption. I would hope that she had an objective third party if indeed she was considering giving Gabriel up for adoption.

AlohaRainbow

03-20-2008, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES

ITA Caejde, and now knowing they were unable to determine gender in the state autopsy, we are left believing they relied on something scientific and that would signal a sonogram for me EVEN THO we know they can be wrong too.

Mrs. Renner gave birth on March 4th, and they allegedly started out in the same parenting class IIRC, so IMO I'm thinking the February due date was closer to correct, but that is JMO and nothing more.

I agree with the poster who thought Mary and Peter were planning to come and try to finalize an adoption plan for Maria. I further believe Maria was feeling trapped by then. The military had presented her with some kind of evidence that had her readjusting her statement to the baby not being a product of rape. IF YOU BELIEVE PETER, he said she tried to drop the allegations and was told she couldn't do that. She must have known she was facing a possible discharge and she wanted to keep the baby. Things weren't adding up and she wanted her baby. I believe the stress factor became so high she saw no other way out other than leaving thus the statement by her friend Jessica.

ALL JMO.

:shrug: :(

She was backed into a corner and it was all going to come to a head soon from my POV. [/*]
hi candy - i'm not sure why, but something about your post triggered this thought:

what if maria had decided to leave town because of the pressure she was feeling from her family about the adoption issue (and she wanted to keep the baby)... then she decides to let cesar know that she is leaving (either she stops by his house to leave a note for him- not expecting him to be home due to the unit party-or she knows he's home and not at the party).

however, when she gets to his house, they fight because he says he and christina have decided to adopt the baby (he assumes it's his based on the due date), and that's why he's been laying the groundwork by telling folks that his wife is pregnant.

he lays it out that this would be a win-win for both of them - maria wouldn't have to get caught in a lie (i.e. rape) with the potential punishment of being thrown out of the military because they both "know" that their encounter/s were consensual, and he wouldn't get caught testifying falsely that they never had sex (and, it was the only way that he could save his marriage). heck, he tells her as he shows her the 0-3 mos baby outfit, they (he and christina) have even started buying baby clothes.

henry

03-20-2008, 03:13 PM

since things are pretty quiet in here right now :) i've been pming caedje about whether maria's personnel file would contain a copy of the mpo in it . . . asked that on sunday & the question got carried away and away and away . . . and never came back . . . just trying to figure out how the mp spokesperson didn't know about it and thought maybe because it wasn't in her file but rather kept somewhere else . . . any help - was going to pm strick10 cause caejde didn't have any personal, 1st hand knowledge of the procedure . . . but thought i'd mention it here . . . any suggestions?

p.s. going out for a bit with the dogs (yes, the 4 legged kind & will be back later) so . . . tia

AmyO

03-20-2008, 03:17 PM

I haven't posted here for a long time but have been reading to keep up. I just have to say that I can't believe they havn't caught the a$$hole yet!!! It just amazes me! They need to up the reward or something.

BTW - wasn't it Barney Fife that yelled, "Citizens Arrest, citizens arrest!!"? :D

caejde

03-20-2008, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by henry
since things are pretty quiet in here right now :) i've been pming caedje about whether maria's personnel file would contain a copy of the mpo in it . . . asked that on sunday & the question got carried away and away and away . . . and never came back . . . just trying to figure out how the mp spokesperson didn't know about it and thought maybe because it wasn't in her file but rather kept somewhere else . . . any help - was going to pm strick10 cause caejde didn't have any personal, 1st hand knowledge of the procedure . . . but thought i'd mention it here . . . any suggestions?

p.s. going out for a bit with the dogs (yes, the 4 legged kind & will be back later) so . . . tia [/*]

Not sure which Marine Corps person you're speaking about though...Lt Col Hill mentioned all of the MPO's and said when they were renewed and such. Cicarelli didn't know when it was sprung on him but I think that's due to that he wasn't working on Maria's case. Because at the Marine presser, he said NCIS was aware of them. I just think the case agent didn't tell him. Who knows why though. I don't have personal knowledge, just everything I've read.

strick10

03-20-2008, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by henry
since things are pretty quiet in here right now :) i've been pming caedje about whether maria's personnel file would contain a copy of the mpo in it . . . asked that on sunday & the question got carried away and away and away . . . and never came back . . . just trying to figure out how the mp spokesperson didn't know about it and thought maybe because it wasn't in her file but rather kept somewhere else . . . any help - was going to pm strick10 cause caejde didn't have any personal, 1st hand knowledge of the procedure . . . but thought i'd mention it here . . . any suggestions?

p.s. going out for a bit with the dogs (yes, the 4 legged kind & will be back later) so . . . tia [/*]

The below should clarify what you're asking.

http://www.usmc.mil/maradmins/maradmin2000.nsf/d50a617f5ac75ae085256856004f3afc/0489163e5069e0ec85256f5d0003437a?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,522%2F04%20

DISTRIBUTION OF THE COMPLETED FORM SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE SERVICE MEMBER, THE SERVICE MEMBER'S LOCAL PERSONNEL FILE, THE INSTALLATION PROVOST MARSHAL'S OFFICE, AND IF AUTHORIZED OR OTHERWISE JUSTIFIED,
TO THE PROTECTED PERSON. NO FURTHER DISTRIBUTION IS AUTHORIZED.

IMO The reason the NCIS spokesperson, IIRC thats the one that didn't know, may not have known is because he would not have had Marias service record book in his possession. IIRC another agent was in charge of this particular case and that person would have had the authority to review Marias/Cesars SRB and that agent probably knew there was an MPO however didn't relay it to the NCIS spokesman. JMO though.

Nikki77058

03-20-2008, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Hey Nikki! Maria's mother, Mary, said that all of her stuff was taken out of context. She has said that she sent a 3 page email to the detectives here in Onslow Co. She said she put in anything that may help find Maria. But there is a video of her saying that they had suspected Maria was bipolar and was a loner and such. I don't have that video link but it is on the board somewhere.

As for Cesar telling the lawyers his tale of the suicide story. He either gave them more info or the lawyer was telling him what could happen if authorities didn't believe him. JMO. [/*]

Thank you Caejde! I can totally understand things being taken out of context - that makes definite sense.

I appreciate your response.

caejde

03-20-2008, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Sami
Maybe Maria decided to get a third opinion for some defense to offer at the supposedly upcoming Article 32 hearing in December.

IF they were trying to prove that Maria lied by showing proof in December that the Baby's DOC did not match with the rape allegation and, thus, get her on charges of lying about that allegation -- then she would have been very wise to have a doctor's signed statement supporting HER dates of possible conception as being relevant. IMO

I would have spent any amount of money to prove that, if I were Maria, and since she seemed to know the gender of the Baby and that she was dilated and exactly how many centimeters, there is a great possibility that she had a paper in her hand to prove that, from an unbiased third party.

If so, that would/could have caused quite a ruckus within the military who had sought to have her drop all rape allegations and might have been trying to get her discharged.

Not to mention the harm it would do to Cesar, especially if she waited for him to testify under oath that he had not had sexual relations with her, then she produces a paper showing the DNA of the Baby.

Would $700 have paid for a DNA analysis, or for an Amniocentesis, I wonder?

More than Cesar's head would have rolled, I bet, if that were the case. . . . .

IMO [/*]

No, I don't think $700 would have covered amnio.

Based on estimates obtained at the writing of this article, the cost to the patient or insurance company averages about $1500.00. Prices range from $1100.00 to $2000.00. The price range varies widely from area to area and will depend greatly on where you live.
http://www.amazingpregnancy.com/pregnancy-articles/98.html

And I had posted another time, that amnio is mainly done for birth defects.

AmyO

03-20-2008, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Hi, Amy!:seeya:

No, it wasn't Barney Fife -- he wasn't a citizen, he was a policeman (of sorts). :D

The reward has been upped, but is still way too small for bounty hunters.

JMO [/*]
Hey Sami! Then it must have been in a movie Don Knotts was in. Oh well - one day I'll come across it! HA!

I agree they need to make the reward something that can't be ignored. This guy needs to face the music.

caejde

03-20-2008, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Thanks, caejde.

I had an Amnio, because I was being scheduled for a Ceasarian and had repeatedly told the doctors they were wrong about the date and eventually, the Baby started convincing them of that, too. [/*]

I'm just not sure if the Navy doctors would have done an amnio. Just my opinion though. It could have been offered but with the risks, Maria didnt' want to....we just don't know.

caejde

03-20-2008, 03:43 PM

http://www.capturelaurean.net/page1.aspx

here is a website that was posted at JD News in the comments sections.

Kel65

03-20-2008, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by caejde
http://www.capturelaurean.net/page1.aspx

here is a website that was posted at JD News in the comments sections. [/*]

You know, I'd like to contribute something, but I need some kind of assurance that the money I contributed was going for what it actually is intended and not into some scam artists pocket.

Is there any explanation on the site that discusses how the money will be handled. I haven't had a chance to delve into it yet.

DoubleFelix

03-20-2008, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by AmyO

Hey Sami! Then it must have been in a movie Don Knotts was in. Oh well - one day I'll come across it! HA!

I agree they need to make the reward something that can't be ignored. This guy needs to face the music. [/*]

I believe it was Gomer Pyle -- before he joined the USMC -- who was famous for the "Citizen's Arre-est! Citizen's Arre-est!"

caejde

03-20-2008, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

You know, I'd like to contribute something, but I need some kind of assurance that the money I contributed was going for what it actually is intended and not into some scam artists pocket.

Is there any explanation on the site that discusses how the money will be handled. I haven't had a chance to delve into it yet. [/*]

I am not sure. I saw a couple posters on JD News talking about it. I think they were going to go through a bank from what they said in the comments section. And i don't think the website is completely ready because I dont' see anything where you can donate just yet.

But I'm like you...I don't know if this is some scam artist and just taking people's money.

Kel65

03-20-2008, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by caejde

I am not sure. I saw a couple posters on JD News talking about it. I think they were going to go through a bank from what they said in the comments section. And i don't think the website is completely ready because I dont' see anything where you can donate just yet.

But I'm like you...I don't know if this is some scam artist and just taking people's money. [/*]

Maybe as the website continues to evolve, they will enlighten us. Maybe it will go through some kind of trust (for lack of a better term)?

IvySterling

03-20-2008, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

Maybe as the website continues to evolve, they will enlighten us. Maybe it will go through some kind of trust (for lack of a better term)? [/*]
What I found in bad taste was posting the photo of Cesar with Abrianna, they could have cropped her out!

baywench

03-20-2008, 04:27 PM

Regina.Lampert

03-20-2008, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by AmyO

Hey Sami! Then it must have been in a movie Don Knotts was in. Oh well - one day I'll come across it! HA!

I agree they need to make the reward something that can't be ignored. This guy needs to face the music. [/*]

Here ya go:

Episode #106 Citizen's Arrest 12-16-63
Barney resigns and spends five days in jail after Gomer turns the tables and places him under citizen's arrest for a u-turn violation. Once Gomer finds out how seriuos the matter has become, he reports a fictitious robbery at the filling station in hopes of pressing Barney back into service.

http://tagsrwc.com/favoritepoll/EpisodeGuideSeason4.htm#106

:seeya:

SavannahStar

03-20-2008, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Sami

ITA. Under the circumstances it seems in bad taste, but I'm sure they didn't mean for it to be offensive to anyone.

ETA: IMO [/*]

I wouldn't even call it in bad taste OR offensive; it's worse than that. His child's photo should NOT be out there at all. I know it is, we've seen it.....but this website should not use it. No way.

IMO.

mini-me

03-20-2008, 04:31 PM

IvySterling

03-20-2008, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Sami

ITA. Under the circumstances it seems in bad taste, but I'm sure they didn't mean for it to be offensive to anyone.

ETA: IMO [/*]
Maybe not.
They/whoever started the site should check their spelling :) They have one shot labeled:
"Suppose to be Christina's sister & husband" instead of "Supposed".

mini-me

03-20-2008, 04:34 PM

Was the brown spot on garage floor discussed. How long that blood would have been there before cleanup took place?

baywench

03-20-2008, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I do think she was being pushed toward disavowing that Cesar was the father, and using some info from the doctor for that -- and if I were Maria, I would have definitely sought out a 'third' opinion, especially if i were certain that Cesar had to be the father.

Like I've posted before, my interest in this case has been enhanced by my own experience with the military doctors when i was pregnant. I knew beyond any doubt exactly when I got pregnant, so when the 'experts' told me my date was wrong, (based on my last period), I knew that I was right (regardless of the period), and they were not.

I had three periods while pregnant, two normal and one very small one.

It took the birth of my son to prove that I was right, though. And I think that's what Maria knew, too. JMO

ETA: It would seem that Cesar also knew the Baby was gonna 'spill the beans'. :mad: [/*]

Sami I believe that sometimes our personal experienes cloud our judgement IMO

Kel65

03-20-2008, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert

Here ya go:

Episode #106 Citizen's Arrest 12-16-63
Barney resigns and spends five days in jail after Gomer turns the tables and places him under citizen's arrest for a u-turn violation. Once Gomer finds out how seriuos the matter has become, he reports a fictitious robbery at the filling station in hopes of pressing Barney back into service.

http://tagsrwc.com/favoritepoll/EpisodeGuideSeason4.htm#106

:seeya: [/*]

That just brings such a funny image to mind. Love it!!! I keep chuckling to myself when I think of Barney shouting that.

DoubleFelix

03-20-2008, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Hi, Double Felix, old Friend! Welcome to the Board! :seeya:

I know you've been reading here, and I'm really glad you joined us.

I'm interested in your opinion on this case. [/*]

:seeya: Thanks for the welcome

In a nutshell: I think she did feel "taken advantage of" sexually which could explain her seemingly contradictory statements. I don't think they had contact other than unavoidable work situations until that fatal Friday. I haven't locked in on what took her to his house.

I think that what was left of the clothes from the bottom portion of her body was in one of the containers of dirt mentioned in the AR. And aren't baby items treated with a fire retardant like the comforter probably was? That could be why the baby item was recognizable but her clothes were burned off.

I also wonder if her mom may have used the word "compulsive" liar when she really meant "impulsive" liar. Even tho those terms have very different meanings, there are many people who use them (incorrectly) interchangably.

I have some other ideas :D but I won't make my first post on the Maria board too, too lengthy -- or boring.

donna

03-20-2008, 04:44 PM

Hi, everyone!

The ATM at my bank is an older version that does not start the camera until my Debit/Credit card is inserted. There are some ATM's that have motion sensors, some have wider angle camera lens, etc.

I really do not have the answers I wanted because I was told it depends on what brand the ATM is, how old it is and what type of security camera it has. Most have gone to digital recording.

I still cannot figure it out because it looks to me that the camera that captured CAL's image had to be motion activated because he was not actually touching anything when the frame showed a hand coming toward the lens to cover it and his other hand was by his side.

* I still believe that CAL was not alone at the ATM. That is just my opinion, tho!

GentleBreeze

03-20-2008, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Sami
The MPO clearly stated what Cesar should have done IF Maria had come to his house -- and he should NOT have been going with her to get a bus ticket!

I wonder if Cesar IMMEDIATELY contacted his CO when Maria supposedly dropped by on 12/14. A stellar Marine would have obeyed this written order, wouldn't they?

I really doubt that his CO would have told him to go with her and be sure she got on that bus. :shrug:

This is from the Commanding Officer to Cesar, as listed in the MPO:

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/infomgt/forms/eforms/dd2873.pdf [/*]

This makes me think that it was okay with both of them. Maria knew she was violating the MPO and could be in serious trouble if he picked up the phone and called and reported that she had made contact at his home. He also knew he could be in very serious trouble by allowing her to come there yet neither one of them peeped a word about it. This is one of the reasons I believe contact had been made at other times after the allegation was made. If not IMOO the first one to make contact whether it be by phone or whatever would have immediately reported the other ASAP!

I still think there are things we do not know about their true relationship. If known., we may not even understand it but things were not as they seemed imo.

Were they both planning to leave and no longer cared about the rules they were expected to follow? What if it was actually Laurean's plans that fell through and he knew he couldn't leave with her on the 15th because CSL would be home?

imoo

caejde

03-20-2008, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Weird question- are the "articles' the same in all branches? Like an article 32 is this and that in the Marines, is it the same in the Army/Navy/ Air Force/ Reserves- or is it just the marines? TIA! [/*]

I do believe so because all branches fall under the UCMJ-Uniformed Code of Military Justice. And the UCMJ is the same for each branch.

donna

03-20-2008, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Welcome!!

You could NEVER post a longer or more boring post than I can. I hold that award. PWUI, occasionally.:D [/*]

Welcome DoubleFelix! Your post is very interesting!

(Annie, your posts are never boring!)

Regina.Lampert

03-20-2008, 04:55 PM

CanCan

03-20-2008, 04:56 PM

Hi DONNA! Thanks for your well-wishes last night! (I'll try not to be a smarty-pants!:D )

CanCan

03-20-2008, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert

Here ya go:

Episode #106 Citizen's Arrest 12-16-63
Barney resigns and spends five days in jail after Gomer turns the tables and places him under citizen's arrest for a u-turn violation. Once Gomer finds out how seriuos the matter has become, he reports a fictitious robbery at the filling station in hopes of pressing Barney back into service.

http://tagsrwc.com/favoritepoll/EpisodeGuideSeason4.htm#106

:seeya: [/*]

:seeya: Thanks, Regina. Can't ya just hear him!!!!!

donna

03-20-2008, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by CanCan
Hi DONNA! Thanks for your well-wishes last night! (I'll try not to be a smarty-pants!:D ) [/*]

Hi, CanCan!

I hope you have a wonderful trip! Was j/k - you are not a smarty pants!

CAL could be anywhere, so I am glad you will be keeping on the lookout for him!

:D

donna

03-20-2008, 05:01 PM

Does anyone know if Cesar's denial of having sex with Maria would be in a statement form that he would sign? Was it just a verbal off the record statement not recorded or signed?

strick10

03-20-2008, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Weird question- are the "articles' the same in all branches? Like an article 32 is this and that in the Marines, is it the same in the Army/Navy/ Air Force/ Reserves- or is it just the marines? TIA! [/*]

The Uniform Code of Military Justice applies to all branches of the service. An Article 32 in the Marines would be the same the Army etc.

strick10

03-20-2008, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Thank YOU!!!!!

I learned something today.

Hey Strick I got my $99.99 back IN FULL from my pharm- after I paid for the test strips they told me WERE NOT COV BY MEDICARE when I knew they were- HA! Refund in full.

So I went shoppin'...................:D [/*]

YW and Yahooooo!

IvySterling

03-20-2008, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

ETA:
Can't find it. I have no patience for looking back at other threads for links I saw once-upon-a-time. sorry.

:seeya:
AB [/*]
You mean this one?
http://i32.tinypic.com/fvxlyx.jpg

Marcia3

03-20-2008, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by DoubleFelix

:seeya: Thanks for the welcome

In a nutshell: I think she did feel "taken advantage of" sexually which could explain her seemingly contradictory statements. I don't think they had contact other than unavoidable work situations until that fatal Friday. I haven't locked in on what took her to his house.

I think that what was left of the clothes from the bottom portion of her body was in one of the containers of dirt mentioned in the AR. And aren't baby items treated with a fire retardant like the comforter probably was? That could be why the baby item was recognizable but her clothes were burned off.

I also wonder if her mom may have used the word "compulsive" liar when she really meant "impulsive" liar. Even tho those terms have very different meanings, there are many people who use them (incorrectly) interchangably.

I have some other ideas :but I won't make my first post on the Maria board too, too lengthy -- or boring. [/*]

Welcome, Double Felix! Glad you decided to stop in and share!

Your posts cannot be any more boring or lengthy than some of mine have been, for crying out loud. :D

Now commence to sharing that theory, would ja? :D

mini-me

03-20-2008, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

ETA:
Can't find it. I have no patience for looking back at other threads for links I saw once-upon-a-time. sorry.

:seeya:
AB [/*]Thanks anyhow was just thinking that blood could have stayed there along time. Outer rim of circle wood be the dried blood. What if she laid there along time .

strick10

03-20-2008, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by donna
Does anyone know if Cesar's denial of having sex with Maria would be in a statement form that he would sign? Was it just a verbal off the record statement not recorded or signed? [/*]

Can't say for a fact that he did sign something, but, IMO word of mouth wouldn't cut it. He had to have made a written statement stating such. JMO Again can't say for sure.

daniel green

03-20-2008, 05:41 PM

Good afternoon, all.

Did anyone get the written report by snail mail, re the Lauterback autopsy? I just did and it holds some info not in the pdf file.

Pls let me know if nobody else has posted it, I will.

Thanks.

strick10

03-20-2008, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by daniel green
Good afternoon, all.

Did anyone get the written report by snail mail, re the Lauterback autopsy? I just did and it holds some info not in the pdf file.

Pls let me know if nobody else has posted it, I will.

Thanks. [/*]

Do share.

SavannahStar

03-20-2008, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

good grief, I would love to see it and see if they have any of the add'l info I have been wanting to see so bad.

PLEASE post it!!

AB [/*]

Oh ditto!!!!!!

SavannahStar

03-20-2008, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Blackbird

I don't think anything is off the record when talking to investigators. [/*]

I think that would be correct.

daniel green

03-20-2008, 05:54 PM

OK, I will post what is says. Will try to get it scanned later. I don't have a scanner at home.

It is from the ME, signed by Charles L Garrett, MD.

REPORT OF INVESTIGATION BY MEDICAL EXAMINER

Maria Frances Lauterbach.
Residence: 2d Marne Logestics Group, Camp LJeune, NC Onslow
Age 20
Female
White

Onset of Injuy +/- 12/16/07 Time :?

Death 12/16/07 time: ?

View of body: 1/12/08 time: 0915

ME notified: 1/11/08 time: +/- 1630.

Last known to be aliave: 12/15/07 time: ?

Autopy: ME Autopsy facility OCME

Blood sample: reason not obtained SENT FOR AUTOPSY

Probable cause of tdeath:

1) Traumatic Head Injury

2) Blunt Force Innjury to head

OCME review is left blank but signed by doctor and dated 3/14/08

more to come

byecats

03-20-2008, 05:57 PM

Question....
I could be completely nuts here, so just:punch: me back into lurkdom but does the blond woman in this picture (with the familiar spice paint): http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=83745158&albumID=1795563&imageID=23366624
look strikingly similar to this woman?
http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Nuttins198/?action=view&current=CLSISTER.jpg (Thanks nuttin!)

Did a side by side and I'm sitting here staring at it.... what the heck. What do you think?

TOTALLY JMO, MOO, IMO, yada yada

IvySterling

03-20-2008, 05:58 PM

chance

03-20-2008, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Sami
OMG -- 12/16?????????????

Thanks, daniel.

12/16??????????????? [/*]

I know that was my thought too!!

Where was she for 2 days?

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:01 PM

Sorry. I forgot to add this to the above.

Where it asks date and time of onst of injury or illness above
there is also a space for Address or Facility and county.

Onset of injury or illess

date: +/-12-16-07 time: ?
address or facility
103 Meadow Traile, Jax, NC County, Onslow

Death:

date: +/- 12-16-07 time: ?
address or facility:
103 Meadow Trail
Jax, NC County: Onslow

View of body:

1/12/08 time: 0915

____scene of death X Hospital ____funeral home
_______other_________________ _not viewed

ME notified:

1/11/08 time: +/-1630 Law Enf Agcy: Onslow CO, SD &FBI
Death occured while in custody ____yes X No

baywench

03-20-2008, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I definitely agree, baywench.

We all come to the board with our personal experiences, and that is usually what dominates our opinions and the ultimate decisions we make as to whether or not Maria was lying, the doctors were mistaken, the date of conception wasn't necessarily 'written in stone', and, sadly for some, that rape leaves one confused and feeling guilty.

We are products of our environments. [/*]

So true. Please don't think I was being sarcastic. I had a problem with bringing "baggage" to a topic on another board. THat's what made me thing of it when I saw your post.

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:04 PM

This is a typed report, 4 pgs.

titled REPORT OF INVESTIGATION BY MEDICAL EXAMINER

on the left top in a block which says OCME USE ONLY

case nu: 08-0676

Date rcvd: Jane 17 2008

strick10

03-20-2008, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Sami
OMG -- 12/16?????????????

Thanks, daniel.

12/16??????????????? [/*]

:eek: and 12/15? :eek:

caejde

03-20-2008, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by strick10

:eek: and 12/15? :eek: [/*]

So the other day when I said the 15th and 16th I could have been right.

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by strick10

:eek: and 12/15? :eek: [/*]

YEAH.

I am typing out 2nd pg right now. Will post shortly.

donna

03-20-2008, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Can't say for a fact that he did sign something, but, IMO word of mouth wouldn't cut it. He had to have made a written statement stating such. JMO Again can't say for sure. [/*]

Just got back to the board. Thank you for answering that, strick10! I was hoping there was something backing up his statement that he never had sex with Maria so that it could be proven he lied. (IMO, he is the father!)

donna

03-20-2008, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Blackbird

I don't think anything is off the record when talking to investigators. [/*]

Thanks, Blackbird, and welcome!

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:09 PM

2d pg

MEDICAL HISTORY

___alcoholism ____diabetes ______iv drug use ____smoking

____Ischemic heart disease __seizure disorder _____cancer

____hypertension ___ depression _____ HIV/AIDS

XX Other 8 mos pregnant

Attending physician __________ (that was left blank)

City: ______________________

(more to follow)

caejde

03-20-2008, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Maybe that's why he borrowed the shovel on the 16th. [/*]

That's one thing that was bothering me. He left Maria, goodness knows where, for close 2 days before borrowing a shovel. And if Christina was in no way involved then that was highly risky that Christina would find her. And as I said before, he didn't know if Maria had told anyone where she went. Like maybe she told "friend A" that she was going to Cesar's, I'll be back in 1 hour. If that makes sense...

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:13 PM

2d pg continued

MEANS OF DEATH

_____Vehicle (not posting all the kinds of things under that
because it's n/a)

____ GUN (same as above)

___ Instrument __blunt ____sharp Description:_________

Toxic agent(s) suspected: ____alcohol ____others

____Drowning (same as above)

___FIRE Suspected cause ____________

___FALL

(more to follow)

caejde

03-20-2008, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Sami

So, she was 8 months pregnant. That fits with Cesar being the father, doesn't it? [/*]

Still wondering why there was reports of 7 months though. But if she was 8 months when she died, that would put her at being due in January. So, that would coincide with Cesar possibly being the father.

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:16 PM

2d pg continued

ACTIVTY OF DECEDENT AND PREMISES

Fatal Injuryor Illness
Activity: UNKNOWN
Type of place: RESIDENCE

Fatal injury or illness occurred on a job ___yes X No

DEATH: type of place: RESIDENCE

SavannahStar

03-20-2008, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Sami

The first link doesn't open for me -- and is it okay to post it? Just wondering. . . . [/*]

I was wondering the same thing.

caejde

03-20-2008, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Still wondering why there was reports of 7 months though. But if she was 8 months when she died, that would put her at being due in January. So, that would coincide with Cesar possibly being the father. [/*]

I just wonder if we will ever know for sure how far along she was and if the baby was indeed a boy. I know the sonograms are pretty accurate so I'm sure it was a boy.

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Still wondering why there was reports of 7 months though. But if she was 8 months when she died, that would put her at being due in January. So, that would coincide with Cesar possibly being the father. [/*]

8 months: 36 weeks

gestation is 40 wks

This report just says 8 mos pregnant, not in wks, which would have been helpful.

byecats

03-20-2008, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Sami

The first link doesn't open for me -- and is it okay to post it? Just wondering. . . . [/*]

Oh Sami, sorry. Do you have myspace? It's a link to the male witness at wedding's MS page (from yesteray, big discussion on the wall color). Goto picture section, party pics, then photo no. 3. Is it ok to post? I don't know... I'm linking to a public page so.... Is it? I'll gladly PM the photo to someone who can do something with it. (I usually sit on my hands here and talk to the screen, not used to participating.)

JMO, IMO, MOO yada yada

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:21 PM

Pg 2 continued

DESCRIPTION OF BODY

CONDITION: ____intact X decomposition ___skeletonized

___embalmed ___charred ____prolonged immersion

X exhumed

Rigor: blank

Height, weght are blank

Body temp is blank

Hair color, beard, mustache are all blank

Eyes color and abnormalities are blank

teeth all upper lower natural dentures abnormalities are blank

Clothing: _______________ ___ Not clothed

Valuables:__________ ___No valuables

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:22 PM

pg 3 is same body diagrams we have seen, except these are blank, nothing added.

Jan Powell

03-20-2008, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert

Here's the link Lynn has provided on the Article 32 hearing and it's subject:

Lynn Gweeny
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 3769

QUESTION: Mr. Ciccarelli, can you shed light on when she was supposed to testify or be involved again in the process?

CICCARELLI: Discussions were underway to have an Article 32. For those not familiar with an Article 32, it's equivalent to a civilian grand jury. Fact finding. Determine if there's enough information from the investigation to go forward with a court-martial. That's what was scheduled. An Article 32 on the sexual assault investigation.

QUESTION: Was there a date was there a date ...

CICCARELLI: It was during December.

QUESTION: During the time she disappeared?

CICCARELLI: Yes.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../11/ywt.01.html

__________________ [/*]

Yes, I've read that and since apparently that couldn't happen if CL had not been given legal counsel I wondered if an Article 32 could be for other reasons.

In particular; if related to Maria adjusting her story to her conception as consensual sex that was first reported a result of an alleged sexual assault.

For some days, early on, the story of an Article 32 hearing was reported by the media.

The two stories don't jive to me, that's all.

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:25 PM

4th pg

NARRATIVE SUMMARY OF CIRCUMSTACE SURROUNDING DEATH

THIS 8 OTH PREGNANT 20 YEAR OLD MARINES BODY WAS RECOVERED FROM A SHALOW GRAVE IN THE REAR YEARD (sic) OF THE RESIDENCE OF ANOTHER MARINE WHO ALLEGEDLY REAPED HER AND WAS THE FATHER OF HER CHILD. HE IS NOW A FUGITIVE SOUGHT ON MURDER WARRANTS.

BLOOD WAS PRESENT IN THE RESIDENCE WITH EVIDENCE OF CLEAN UP ATTEMPTS AND PARTIAL COVERING WITH FRESHPAINT IN THE GARAGE.

glc:ak 1/16/08

(That is the end of the 4 pg report. It was done on the date above, 1/16/08, at intake of the body)

donna

03-20-2008, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by caejde

I just wonder if we will ever know for sure how far along she was and if the baby was indeed a boy. I know the sonograms are pretty accurate so I'm sure it was a boy. [/*]

I think it was a boy also. There was the blue teddy bear in the back window of Maria's car in one of the pics we had, IIRC. Wouldn't Maria have known the gender of the baby via sonogram?

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:28 PM

Oops. One more omission on my part.

From pg 1, under probable cause of death

1. Traumatic head injury

due to __________

2. Blunt force injury to head.

due to ___________

3. __________

due to ___________

4. ___________________

____________________

CONTIBUTING CONDITIONS

MANNER OF DEATH:

__natural _____accident X homicide ___suicide ___pending

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I wonder why he didn't say 'alleged father of her child' -- do they know for sure? [/*]

It's one sentence. Alleged covers both.

ANOTHER MARINE WHO ALLEGEDLY REAPED HER AND WAS THE FATHER OF HER CHILD

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

Daniel can you tell is this was signed by LE? [/*]

It is not.

There is, on the first page:

LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY: Onslow Cty, SD & FBI

OFFICER: Sheriff Brown Telephone: 455-3113
Death occurred while in custody NO

donna

03-20-2008, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by byecats

Oh Sami, sorry. Do you have myspace? It's a link to the male witness at wedding's MS page (from yesteray, big discussion on the wall color). Goto picture section, party pics, then photo no. 3. Is it ok to post? I don't know... I'm linking to a public page so.... Is it? I'll gladly PM the photo to someone who can do something with it. (I usually sit on my hands here and talk to the screen, not used to participating.)

JMO, IMO, MOO yada yada [/*]

Hi, byecats! Would you PM the pic to me? I cannot get into MySpace, and cannot get them to send me my password!
TIA.
donna - :)

ETA - Never mind, byecats! That is not possible to do via PM. Do you have it downloaded to another link other than MYSpace?

byecats

03-20-2008, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

So now that you've posted this, you will post more here then correct?
I am an unofficial recruiter, part time, and part time "bad" example. [/*]

I'll try my best AB. Thanks for the welcome, and you are a very amusing "bad" example. I always enjoy your posts.

PS: Thanks for the heads up Sami. I saw the "must have permission to use on another site" last night from CW, I misunderstood. I thought linking to them would be ok. I promise to do better in the future!:)

henry

03-20-2008, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean
Welcome, blackbird and byecats, to our little corner of confusion.

:seeya:
AB [/*]

ditto

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

This is a preliminary report done at intake of the body before autopsy I would think. jmo [/*]

This is done at intake, with the help of the investigative officer who gives the ME the medical history, facts of case, etc.

It is called REPORT OF INVESTIGATION BY MEDICAL EXAMINER

The form itself, 4 pgs, comes from (it is on top of pg 1)

NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
OFFICE OF THE CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7580

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

Homicide investigators unusually fill out a report to go to the ME. It is while a lot is still in question. I think this is one of those reports. Before autopsy. jmoo [/*]

I don't think so, since it comes from the ME's office and is signed by the ME, Charles L Garrett, MD, 1/16/08
County of appointment: Onslow.

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

This is a preliminary report done at intake of the body before autopsy I would think. jmo [/*]

I think so too. I wouldn't be getting too excited over the "8 mos pregnant" line. That's the information the ME had from LE at the time the body was sent to the ME's office. Along with the word "allegedly". That's not ME speak, that's LE speak.

Too many blanks not filled in that were filled in on the pdf file.

That's jmo.

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by Sami
OMG -- 12/16?????????????

Thanks, daniel.

12/16??????????????? [/*]

Onset of illness: +/- 12/16/07

Death: +/- 12/16/07

I'll make a copy so everyone can see.

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:42 PM

Old, as I posted above, there is a box on the bottom right hand of 1st pg of form which reads

OCME REVIEW

and is all left blank

1________________
due to ___________

2 ________________
due to ___________

3._______________
due to____________

4 ______________

_______________

Contributing conditions

___natural ___accident ___homicide ____suicide
___undetermined

Reviewer: there is one written intial there that looks like ar R

date: 3/14/08

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

Homicide detectives will carry the forms with them to note down what they know at the time. The ME will sign receipt of the form.

Anyway, that is the way it is done where I am from. jmo [/*]

This is a state of NC, chief ME form.

I understand that is how do it where you are from.

scillak

03-20-2008, 06:44 PM

So...are we going to give the new possible dates any creedance? Because I pretty much had the whole thing figured out, but now with these new dates........... (yeh, right, lol)

Onset of Injuy +/- 12/16/07 Time :?

Death 12/16/07 time: ?

View of body: 1/12/08 time: 0915

ME notified: 1/11/08 time: +/- 1630.

Last known to be aliave: 12/15/07 time: ?

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:45 PM

Just want to make sure that it's noted that this form was filled out on 1/16/08

and signed on that date by Chales L Garrett, MD, Onslow.

It says here that the autopsy facity: OCME

donna

03-20-2008, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by byecats

I'll try my best AB. Thanks for the welcome, and you are a very amusing "bad" example. I always enjoy your posts.

PS: Thanks for the heads up Sami. I saw the "must have permission to use on another site" last night from CW, I misunderstood. I thought linking to them would be ok. I promise to do better in the future!:) [/*]

Sorry, byecats! I would not want you to do anythign against TOS. I PM'd you just now.

:)

daniel green

03-20-2008, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Onset of illness: +/- 12/16/07

Death: +/- 12/16/07

I'll make a copy so everyone can see. [/*]

Those blew me away, nuttin.

Those were dates given by LE/OC to the ME.

WOW.

IvySterling

03-20-2008, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

I don't think so, since it comes from the ME's office and is signed by the ME, Charles L Garrett, MD, 1/16/08
County of appointment: Onslow. [/*]
Mine says:

AUTHORIZATION
Authorized By Charles L. Garrett MD Received From Onslow
ENVIRONMENT
Date of Exam 01/14/2008 Time of Exam 10:15
Autopsy Facility Office of the Chief Medical Examiner Persons Present Mr. Clyde Gibbs, Dr. Gardner, Dr.
Gaffney-Kraft

NO ACTUAL SIGNATURE APPEARS ON THE DOC.

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

hello- don't go freakin yet- it DOES say +/- y'all, that means not a concrete date. [/*]

And the "Last seen alive - 12/15/07" is the date Christina gave LE of the "suicide".

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I hate the thought of +12/16. :mad: [/*]

I don't think that's the case. I will stake what's left of my reputation of a DOD of 12/14 late evening to 12/15 early (very early) morning.

IvySterling

03-20-2008, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I hate the thought of +12/16. :mad: [/*]
The date differential has been discussed before when in another Doc. is stated Dec. 16th and we all discussed how off all the reports and dates were.

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

Mine says:

AUTHORIZATION
Authorized By Charles L. Garrett MD Received From Onslow
ENVIRONMENT
Date of Exam 01/14/2008 Time of Exam 10:15
Autopsy Facility Office of the Chief Medical Examiner Persons Present Mr. Clyde Gibbs, Dr. Gardner, Dr.
Gaffney-Kraft

NO ACTUAL SIGNATURE APPEARS ON THE DOC. [/*]

Mine has Dr. Garrett's signature on the first page at the bottom (underneath MOD).

Howiefan

03-20-2008, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by chance

I know that was my thought too!!

Where was she for 2 days? [/*]

if it is indeed the 16th she was kidnapped by CL

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by Sami

And the rug left. . . . when? :D [/*]

That would be January 10th. :D

IvySterling

03-20-2008, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Mine has Dr. Garrett's signature on the first page at the bottom (underneath MOD). [/*]
Hmm, wonder why the copy they sent me didn't have that???? It stated digitally signed:

CERTIFICATION
Cause of Death
Blunt force injury to the head
The facts stated herein are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.
Digitally signed by
Thomas *. Clark, III MD 14 March 2008 09:29

Did you get her Dental Doc. also nuttin?

nuttintodo

03-20-2008, 07:00 PM

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 07:02 PM

scillak

03-20-2008, 07:02 PM

I think we should stick with 12/14. And....wasn't that the last date of phone calls on Maria's cell phone?

donna

03-20-2008, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

That would be January 10th. :D [/*]

:D - entirely possible!

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by nelkirk

ITA

entitled REPORT OF INVESTIGATION BY MEDICAL EXAMINER

Initial Report of the Body from the scene by the Onslow County ME

Note that on the pdf AR it reads that Charles Garrett MD authorized the autopsy at Chapel Hill. [/*]

It also says that the ME was notified at 4:30 in the afternoon of 1/11, but didn't view the body until 1/12 at 9:15 in the morning (the next morning).

Remember they stopped digging on the night of the 11th and returned the next morning. So, does Onslow County have the ME come to the scene of a body find or do they just put the body in the body bag and send it to ME's office?

What time did they resume the excavation of the gravesite on the 12th?

daniel green

03-20-2008, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

Hmm, wonder why the copy they sent me didn't have that???? It stated digitally signed:

CERTIFICATION
Cause of Death
Blunt force injury to the head
The facts stated herein are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.
Digitally signed by
Thomas *. Clark, III MD 14 March 2008 09:29

Did you get her Dental Doc. also nuttin? [/*]

Ivy, that is the autopsy report which included the dental records.

This report is dates January 2008--Not March 14.

There were three reports made availabe by the ME.

The autopsy report

the Tox report (did you get that? it was posted on one of the threads)

and this report which I received via snail mail. I had not seen this one till I got it today. It was not included in the pdf file or tox screen report I received via emai.

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Autopsy is dated 1/14 at 10:15

This report is dated 1/12 at 9:15 [/*]

The autopsy of 1/14 was done in Chapel Hill.

This report was done in Jacksonville.

daniel green

03-20-2008, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

It also says that the ME was notified at 4:30 in the afternoon of 1/11, but didn't view the body until 1/12 at 9:15 in the morning (the next morning).

Remember they stopped digging on the night of the 11th and returned the next morning. So, does Onslow County have the ME come to the scene of a body find or do they just put the body in the body bag and send it to ME's office?

What time did they resume the excavation of the gravesite on the 12th? [/*]

On this report is states

View of body: 1/12/08 time: 0915

Address of facility:

___scene of death X hospital ___funeral home

___other ___not viewed

IvySterling

03-20-2008, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

No, did you? [/*]
Yep, it was an attachment and won't let me copy it like I can from the other pages.

It's from a Clinical Associate Professor, UNC School of Denistry

daniel green

03-20-2008, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

The autopsy of 1/14 was done in Chapel Hill.

This report was done in Jacksonville. [/*]

This report was dictated by Dr Garrett on 1/16/08.

CLG:AK 1/16/08

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

On this report is states

View of body: 1/12/08 time: 0915

Address of facility:

___scene of death X hospital ___funeral home

___other ___not viewed [/*]

So they finished the removal of the body from the "gravesite" before 9 a.m. and transported the body to Onslow County ME, who did a prelim autopsy, who in turn, sent it to Chapel Hill for the complete autopsy?

'Cause that's how I remember it happening.

This is where the media (BEFORE THE CHAPEL HILL AUTOPSY) got the "blunt force trauma" and "8 mos pregnant" info.

IOW, this is a preliminary autopsy report only to determine cause of death, right?

daniel green

03-20-2008, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

I agree. I wouldn't be getting to excited over anything on the form. It is preliminary and done from the scene. Not much is known at that time. Investigation is very preliminary in the beginning. imo [/*]

This was not done on the scene.

It was done in the hospital by the ME appointed by Onslow County.

And, yes, I am sure that last known to be alive 12/15/07 with NOT +/- is accurate. As LE would have had that long before 1/16/18 which is the date of this report.

scillak

03-20-2008, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by daniel green

This was not done on the scene.

It was done in the hospital by the ME appointed by Onslow County.

And, yes, I am sure that last known to be alive 12/15/07 with NOT +/- is accurate. As LE would have had that long before 1/16/18 which is the date of this report. [/*]

I wonder if they based the 12/15 on the notes Christina provided that were written by Cesar.

crymeariver2006

03-20-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

Cryme,

It is up to the ME if he will respond to the scene or not. It is not up to LE. My guess is one of the MEs did respond. This is the kind of case where one would. I also think one of the homicide investigators probably went to the MEs office with Maria.

All jmoo [/*]

Our ME is called to the scene of any suspicious death.

Now maybe LE contacted the ME on 1/11 (because that's what it says in the report) and told him or her to expect a body the next morning.

But they did not recover the body until the next morning (1/12).

:shrug: