Tuesday * 03-18-08 * a.m. [Archive] - In Session Message Boards

henry

03-18-2008, 05:48 AM

good morning & a big pot of coffee is on for all those that celebrated last nite - lots of good & bad things to party about :) . . . and glad everyone is sleeping while i changed my sig line this morning 5 times. i always thought it proper etiquette and respectful to respond to those that quoted a post of mine . . . hah - not going to happen anymore in the foreseeable future as so many get caught up in the banning and shutdown.

today's fbi check-in day and zippo on the home page as well as the charlotte office . . .
http://charlotte.fbi.gov/

also, i'd like to direct your attention to captain rick sutherland's response to round 2 questions . . . although pres. peas is developing their state of the union roadmap theory(ies), please post your thoughts . . . even if it's not a whole scenario but rather just a point in time.
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=326733

and here's the theories thread . . . if you DON'T want your theory to go to rsutherland, pls pm either me or nuttintodo or post on the theory thread. . . otherwise the assumption will be made that it's okay to send
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=324292

henry

03-18-2008, 07:32 AM

okay gpeas . . . i'm also tired of talking to myself on last nite's thread this morning so i decided to carry my last thought over here regarding the lack of clothing, if that is the case . . . perhaps it's as simple as there was evidence on her clothing linking the murderer to the crime . . . and decided to get rid of the incriminating evidence = maria's clothing . . . imo

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by henry
okay gpeas . . . i'm also tired of talking to myself on last nite's thread this morning so i decided to carry my last thought over here regarding the lack of clothing, if that is the case . . . perhaps it's as simple as there was evidence on her clothing linking the murderer to the crime . . . and decided to get rid of the incriminating evidence = maria's clothing . . . imo [/*]

Well I actually could understand.....that clearly written post.

What a great and simple theory.....you could be right.......I don't think anyone thought of that as yet......sure makes a lot more sense to me than the idea that he sexually assaulted her that day....KISS!

:beer:

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 08:14 AM

The item of baby clothing really has me stumped. No guesses I've heard thus far make any sense to me. I don't know WHY it was there (at the house, not just in the pit). I don't buy that he was luring her over there with it. I can't see how she would have brought it over with her and INTO the house. I also don't buy the idea that if CSL was involved that would explain it (rage over CL's baby with ML). Nothing makes sense to me. Something is really missing in the equation.

Would like to hear other posters' ideas....more of them...

Regina.Lampert

03-18-2008, 08:58 AM

Good morning everyone. Yes, that single, little baby item really is a puzzler. I hope they have been able to
trace back and see who bought it and when.

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Sami
This is the second topic in Mimi's post from yesterday:

Something like this could have happened. I find this theory just as believeable (actually more believeable) as Maria buying the outfit and then dropping in on Cesar (who just coincidentally was sitting at home at the time, while his wife was at HIS Christmas party) to show him his Baby's new clothes.:shrug:

JMO [/*]

Only thing with that theory is it depicts a VERY pre-planned murder and one of my basic beliefs is that the murder was a rage killing, "heat of the moment." I just will never go along with the murder being planned out in advance, especially with another unknown person in on the whole thing.

:shrug:

crymeariver2006

03-18-2008, 09:34 AM

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Sami
I was thinking last night about WHY Cesar would have buried Maria & Baby in his own back yard, just feet away from his own child.

I always have thought it would have been wiser to have driven her body, in her car, far from his house and park it in an isolated area, so when it was found, it wouldn't point to him like bodies in your backyard would.

But then, I realized that it was the Baby's DNA he was trying to destroy, because if Maria's body had been located and the test determined that Cesar was the father, he was going to look very suspicious to the Corps, to whom he had lied about the sexual contact.

I guess he kept the bodies near him, so he could continuously burn them in an effort to speed up the decomposition so much that DNA would not be traceable.

I hope he didn't succeed. All jmo [/*]

It's always bothered me as well, Sami, why he would kill and bury/burn her at his own home. You raise some interesting points....IMO.....you just may have figured it out.

Howiefan

03-18-2008, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Sami
I was thinking last night about WHY Cesar would have buried Maria & Baby in his own back yard, just feet away from his own child.

I always have thought it would have been wiser to have driven her body, in her car, far from his house and park it in an isolated area, so when it was found, it wouldn't point to him like bodies in your backyard would.

But then, I realized that it was the Baby's DNA he was trying to destroy, because if Maria's body had been located and the test determined that Cesar was the father, he was going to look very suspicious to the Corps, to whom he had lied about the sexual contact.

I guess he kept the bodies near him, so he could continuously burn them in an effort to speed up the decomposition so much that DNA would not be traceable.

I hope he didn't succeed. All jmo [/*]
Good morning Sami:seeya: Funny you should bring this up because I really thought that also after reading the report that he was trying to destroy DNA of the baby but since i am not totally sure of all that is required to get DNA i gave it up.. I think it is very possible.. Does anyone know since the umbilical cord was still attached although weathered etc.. and old...could they get DNA from that..?

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by old_lady

He didn't have enough time to move her anywhere further away before Christina was due home. KISS jmoo [/*]

Ah.....yes.......that too....

henry

03-18-2008, 10:07 AM

imo i think he buried her on or after 12/16 (from the lowe's purchase) . . . that was his 1st priority - to get rid of the body . . . and then he checked on her before 12/24 and noticed that not much had happened . . . so he had a bonfire/barbecue . . . and then realized there was that bag of "evidence" in his house/car/truck/garage . . . and redug & dumped some of the items in . . . and then had another fire (iirc there were 2 fires???) jmo

GentleBreeze

03-18-2008, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

Only thing with that theory is it depicts a VERY pre-planned murder and one of my basic beliefs is that the murder was a rage killing, "heat of the moment." I just will never go along with the murder being planned out in advance, especially with another unknown person in on the whole thing.

:shrug: [/*]

Good Morning!

My theory on that part has not changed either, SS. I also am not convinced that Maria was lured or forced to come there. I still say if there was evidence of that then they would have gladly charged him with kidnapping.

Since we do not know who purchased the baby item, I really dont know if it had anything to do with the crime before it happened. She may have brought it in to show him or he could have purchased it for Gabriel. I do think with the technology they have today if the label was traceable LE has those answers by now. I am sure LE went through all recent credit card transactions on both Maria and Cesar. If they have found the store where it was purchased then again I think they have verified whether it was ML or CL and when.

I am like you, even the autopsy report and diagram seems to show that whatever happened ............happened right out of no where and she didnt even have time to deflect the blow or blows. I still very much think this was far from planned but something triggered this extreme heat of passion after Maria and Cesar were together in his home for the second time that day.

I do believe there were two trips made and imo the first one went okay but when she returned something ignited the passion that had been rising in both of them for months on end.

imoo

Regina.Lampert

03-18-2008, 10:12 AM

Good morn Sam. I find Mimi's theory exceptionally REASONABLE. I would like to add my thought that the total destruction of the limbs and front abdominal area could be
explained by the addition of an excelerant in those specific
areas, especially if it was just squirted on quickly.

I tend to think that a fire hot enough to totally destroy limbs, would also be hot enough to completely destroy clothing below the waist, especially if it was soaked in the excelerant. IMO.

I also wonder if they can determine if any charcoal briquets were added to this fire at any point in time?

There's not a doubt in my mind this coward was attempting to
annihilate all traces of that baby.

martha

03-18-2008, 10:15 AM

I can;t help but wonder if they had sex before he killed her? is this wrong to wonder?:rose:

lilCanuck

03-18-2008, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by SavannahStar
The item of baby clothing really has me stumped. No guesses I've heard thus far make any sense to me. I don't know WHY it was there (at the house, not just in the pit). I don't buy that he was luring her over there with it. I can't see how she would have brought it over with her and INTO the house. I also don't buy the idea that if CSL was involved that would explain it (rage over CL's baby with ML). Nothing makes sense to me. Something is really missing in the equation.

Would like to hear other posters' ideas....more of them... [/*]

I hadn't given much thought to the baby stuff before, and this is sort of 'off the wall thinking, BUT (what IF) they (cesar & maria) had decided to run off together. (bear with me, this is far out lol)

Maria, had written a goodbye note just before leaving with cesar - she started into labour - got scared and went to his house in a panic - labour intensified.. he HAD to help her like 'NOW' - CSL came home unexpectedly, and went into a rage.

This of course supports my theory that
CSL did the killing. The cover up then began. (baby stuff)? just something she happened to have in her car.

Like I said ALL just speculation.

jace

03-18-2008, 10:17 AM

Okay, I'm not really good at this but reading over the posts something popped in my head. I'm sure someone here can discount it.

CL had been telling people that his wife was pregnant (or at least there is rumor of that). ML is buried without her lower clothing. Could CL have tried to deliver ML's baby after hitting her in the head? His wife couldn't have a baby while at the Christmas party so passing it off as theirs wouldn't have worked. Could he have been trying to deliver the baby so he could get rid of any DNA that might point to him as the father?

Sorry, I know I'm an amateur at this but I thought I'd post it anyway.

GentleBreeze

03-18-2008, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

It's always bothered me as well, Sami, why he would kill and bury/burn her at his own home. You raise some interesting points....IMO.....you just may have figured it out. [/*]

To me it shows more chaos even after the fact. I think he knew he didn't have anytime to take her body eslewhere. His truck had an open bed... how would he carry her body where no one would see him with a large bundle in the back, especially knowing the nosy neighbors they had?

So he buried her in what he thought was the most private place he thought he had imo. But by burying her there and having a spot in his yard that looked like a freshly dug grave he disquised that area by building his bonfires for his holiday parties over that same area.

He certainly had thoughts when it came to getting rid of the body yet that is after the fact and imo it still does not show premeditation in the actual murder only the aftermath.

imoo

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Sami

Okay, SS, so does that denote some form of premeditation to you?

It was getting too close for comfort, with the Baby almost due. He needed to act soon or she might go into labor and then it would be too late.

. . . . Or was he just sitting there waiting and the opportunity just coincidentally dropped into his lap? [/*]

Yep....it does....I figured that out too late after I posted and read old lady's post.

So confusing! I think one thing, then something else comes along to make me change my mind.

I definitely do NOT believe this murder was planned, though.

lilCanuck

03-18-2008, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Sami

Not so far out, lilCanuck.

Though I don't totally agree with this theory, there are posters here who do think something like this could have happened.

Glad you're posting here! [/*]

Thank you Sami, I've been reading here for some time now, and seldom feel I have much to contribute. Gotta admit.. this
case is full of mystery still. I sure do feel all the posters here might well come up with some fresh ideas for the investigators.

Marcia3

03-18-2008, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Sami

I believe like you, that there was a catalyst. But I have trouble with Cesar just happening to be sitting there by himself on Friday evening with his wife at HIS party alone.

Something seems planned to me, rather than coincidental. JMO [/*]

Good morning all! Haven't had time to post here much lately...and things are not slowing down so I'm only here for a bit, but wanted to respond to Sami.

IMO it may have been a combination of elements...you know, CAL stewed all evening, maybe added to his aggitation with alcohol, and perhaps a friend/sympathizer thrown into the scenario. Maybe the initial contact with Maria was to simply harrass and initimidate into leaving town, but things got out of hand when she refused to cooperate.

It's still very murky to me, and the questions raised regarding her clothing and the baby item just have me scratching my head. :confused:

Charlotte

03-18-2008, 10:40 AM

Just want to mention that even though the arms and legs were burned away from her body at varying lengths, some of the bone fragments from these areas were recovered. In the autopsy report it says that 6 of the 8 bags sent to the ME with the body contained "various fragments of long bone, extremities, and skull."

It sounds like they recovered at least some pieces of arm and/or leg bones, and hand and/or foot bones (the extremities). There is no detail as to anything relating to these bones (other than injury to the skull), so this doesn't mean anything in particular. Just making the observation that at least some bones, or pieces of them, from the burned-off limbs were recovered, FWIW.

lilCanuck

03-18-2008, 10:43 AM

gtg - good luck everyone - will be back to read you all later :seeya:

hinman

03-18-2008, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by old_lady

I agree, it was not planned. It is a murder of opportunity. Maria went there. jmoo

Edit to add. If it was planned, Maria would have been murdered somewhere else and ended up in the woods somewhere. Maybe never to be found.

jmoo [/*]I also am not leaning on it being planned, but I do wonder some times.

Not all planned murders happen in the woods, Look at the girl who killed her parents. There are a lot of planned murders where the murderer buries the victim right in their yard or field.

I wonder if it makes them feel safer, the murderer feels they know if anyone is catching on with the victim being so close.

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 10:44 AM

Good morning, everybody :seeya:

There are three things that make me lean toward a planned murder:

1. Sheriff Brown himself said there was evidence "the whole thing was planned, including the getaway" (my paraphrasing as I don't have the link).

2. The "coincidence" of ML being at CL's house while CSL was at the party.

3. The baby clothing in the pit.

The one thing that makes me lean toward a rage killing (unplanned) is that the firepit materials were bought after ML was supposedly murdered. Of course, we (meaning posters) don't have any real evidence that ML was actually murdered on Dec 14 other than LE has stated they believe that is the day (also, to me, that is kind of an iffy statement and does not imply a firm conviction that Dec 14 was the day).

Arghhh.... so many questions about this case...

hinman

03-18-2008, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by old_lady
What I am posting is part of my theory should I write one. Just saying....... [/*]Write one. I would love to read it and all theories help.

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Charlotte
Just want to mention that even though the arms and legs were burned away from her body at varying lengths, some of the bone fragments from these areas were recovered. In the autopsy report it says that 6 of the 8 bags sent to the ME with the body contained "various fragments of long bone, extremities, and skull."

It sounds like they recovered at least some pieces of arm and/or leg bones, and hand and/or foot bones (the extremities). There is no detail as to anything relating to these bones (other than injury to the skull), so this doesn't mean anything in particular. Just making the observation that at least some bones, or pieces of them, from the burned-off limbs were recovered, FWIW. [/*]

Good point, Charlotte.

Mimi428

03-18-2008, 10:47 AM

Morning all,

I'm gone at least until tom. evening. G-daughter's horse got spooked last night, stomped right on her foot & her foot is FX'd.

Also got some stuff going on this week & next w/oncologist for my mom - good thing she lives close to my g-daughter, so not too much running back & forth to be done (I hope)

I didn't get my theory posted to the theory thread, if anyone wants to transfer it over, that is fine with me.

Hope we see Cesar frog marching in handcuffs by the time I return.

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by martha
I can;t help but wonder if they had sex before he killed her? is this wrong to wonder?:rose: [/*]

Good morning martha.

No, it's not wrong to wonder. That said, I wouldn't think so UNLESS they had resumed their relationship months before, but that's JMO and nothing more. :(

I say it is possible given the autopsy and lack of clothing.

hinman

03-18-2008, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by martha
I can;t help but wonder if they had sex before he killed her? is this wrong to wonder?:rose: [/*]I don't think it is wrong for you to wonder.

We all wonder about things that might seem unimaginable to others. I feel that if we didn't we would never understand or even figure out what went wrong in this case.

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Sami

I agree, Reggie. I think the accelerant was definitely used and caused irreparable damage to the clothing that received the most of it. JMO [/*]

Is there something that confirms an accelerant was used or are you just opining because of the testing done?

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Marcia3

Good morning all! Haven't had time to post here much lately...and things are not slowing down so I'm only here for a bit, but wanted to respond to Sami.

IMO it may have been a combination of elements...you know, CAL stewed all evening, maybe added to his aggitation with alcohol, and perhaps a friend/sympathizer thrown into the scenario. Maybe the initial contact with Maria was to simply harrass and initimidate into leaving town, but things got out of hand when she refused to cooperate.

It's still very murky to me, and the questions raised regarding her clothing and the baby item just have me scratching my head. :confused: [/*]

Good to see you again, Marcia! Big ditto on your last sentence!

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Sami

What a sad commentary on a vibrant life.

And how sad that perhaps the only clothes little Gabriel ever had, were left rotting and filthy and charred in a pit that held his Mama's body.

Something so sad about that little Baby outfit. . . .never worn and discarded with its precious owners. :( [/*]

And even more sad that they didn't even know the gender of the baby. :(

JMO

hinman

03-18-2008, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

Well I actually could understand.....that clearly written post.

What a great and simple theory.....you could be right.......I don't think anyone thought of that as yet......sure makes a lot more sense to me than the idea that he sexually assaulted her that day....KISS!

:beer: [/*]O/T
I got your cream cheese chicken going in the crock.

I agree what a simple and great theory by Henry.

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

You know we are going to want links to accelerant...but its practically a given he used something on the bonfire, if not Maria herself, isn't it? [/*]

I've never burned anyone with or without clothing, and I don't know if it is required or not, but am waiting to hear about the tests. I haven't seen a report.

JMO.:shrug:

Marcia3

03-18-2008, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Sami

You have been missed, Marcia. :seeya:

I definitely think alcohol played a part. I'm also leaning toward a third party involvement. I'm not even convinced that was Cesar at the ATM on the 24th.

I think it might have been an 'unidentified male'. JMO [/*]

Thanks, Sami. I try to keep up by reading every other page of the previous days posts, but was gone all weekend so I'm still working my way thru Saturday thread! :eek:

ITA on the third party, which is quite a departure from my earlier theory, which has washed up on the beach...:D

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by old_lady

You are right. Nothing confirmed just testing being done. imo

Maybe that is just sop on any body burned.

imo [/*]

I think here it might be on any fire related incident where the fire department responds. It seems I read it in every article.

After seeing how quickly some fabrics burn, I don't know if an accelerant would be necessary or not.

JMO.

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Sami
CANDY, were you opining only about that Mapquest to Cesar's home on last night's thread?

When I read your link, it didn't say anything about Cesar's home, so I assume you were giving a version of 'possibly it could have been to their home'.

I remember, some time ago, a few posters thought the Mapquest might have been to locate a clinic (possibly in El Paso) for having the Baby.

It's strange how fact and opinion get all mixed up, isn't it?

Has it ever been stated, that you have seen, that there was a Mapquest to Cesar's home? TIA :seeya: [/*]

If you were reading, you received the answer multiple times over, but if you want passive-agressive debate yet again, I'm up for it.

:seeya: JMO

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Sami

Why do you think he tried to burn them, CANDY? TIA [/*]

At this point without the other reports being in (unless I missed them), I tend to agree with Captain Sutherland's last statement concerning that.

I believe it was another convenient happening as a result of CYA because they were entertaining and the vultures had allegedly been out and the body had to be covered in such a way he wouldn't have to explain anything to anyone.

IF there was an odor, that could figure in too.

JMO.

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Sami
CANDY, were you opining only about that Mapquest to Cesar's home on last night's thread?

When I read your link, it didn't say anything about Cesar's home, so I assume you were giving a version of 'possibly it could have been to their home'.

I remember, some time ago, a few posters thought the Mapquest might have been to locate a clinic (possibly in El Paso) for having the Baby.

It's strange how fact and opinion get all mixed up, isn't it?

Has it ever been stated, that you have seen, that there was a Mapquest to Cesar's home? TIA :seeya: [/*]

I don't think there ever was a Mapquest, period.

(Hate to open up that can of worms again though. :D )

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by old_lady

I agree. The dirt surrounding the body was no doubt all recovered. Body's take very high temperatures to completely burn to ashes as in cremation.

Anyone know a funeral home director?

Within that dirt will be remains of Maria and clothing if there was any. Especially the hip laying next to the bottom of the pit.

jmoo [/*]

I agree, old lady. I remember the ME talking about the charring of the left thigh. Was the right thigh mentioned? I can't remember, and all the posts of the poster who posted the report are gone, and I can't open PDF files on this computer at my house! Anyway, if it was not charred, I would think there would be clothing remains under her right hip also.

JMO

(Could somebody copy the PDF file of the autopsy report to a Word document or something and then post it in the autopy discussion thread? TIA!)

JMO

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by hinman
O/T
I got your cream cheese chicken going in the crock.

I agree what a simple and great theory by Henry. [/*]

OH OH OH OH OH I am SO excited you are trying the recipe. Let me know how you like it!

SORRY O/T.

Yes, hope Henry's post doesn't get lost in the shuffle. Good "guess" on her part. Another good "KISS" post.

Howiefan

03-18-2008, 11:13 AM

I am leaning on it being planned also as CL "said he would flee to Mexico if charged with rape.." I think he knew he was the father of this child and I think he knew there was a good possibility of him being charged with rape thus the planned murder... Now how much planning I really have no idea...

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by AnnieBean
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by old_lady

You are right. Nothing confirmed just testing being done. imo

Maybe that is just sop on any body burned.

imo [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know, you could be right. Who says Cesar wanted Maria and Gabriel and everything in that grave burned beyond recognition? Maybe he is in Mexico having a hard time mentally with the fact that he burned her up? (just musing...)
Maybe his only intention was to bury her, and the bonfire was strictly in his mind a way to disguise the gravesite. Maybe he never dreamed she would burn under there. Who knows.
I am much older than Cesar, and until this case, if someone had asked me if a buried body would be charred and cooked and burned away to the extent marias was if a bonfire is lit on top of a dirt-covered grave, I would have thought "no". I would have wrongly assumed the dirt on top would insulate her body from being burned, and maybe if she had been buried much deeper that could have been the case? I dunno. [/*]

I KNOW THIS IS HORRIBLE and GRAPHIC to consider.

Annie, I can still remember the day I put it together and I pm'd TAM to ask her if she thought it was possible. I compared it to how we use cooking bags. I am surprised there was no mention of something that might insulate her like that. I kept thinking he might have wrapped her in a plastic tarp and that could have accelerated the process IF YOU WILL. Think about how much faster the cooking takes place in a bag. I still can't imagine how the underground workings did what they did, but am waiting for a report and expert testimony I guess. :shrug:

JMO

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Howiefan
I am leaning on it being planned also as CL "said he would flee to Mexico if charged with rape.." I think he knew he was the father of this child and I think he knew there was a good possibility of him being charged with rape thus the planned murder... Now how much planning I really have no idea... [/*]

Excellent point, Howie. The only way CL would be charged with rape would be if he was, in fact, the father of the baby. Well, he may not have been charged with rape even if he was the father..... either way (i.e., true or false rape allegation), it certainly confirms in my mind that he did have sex with ML and he was the father.

JMO

Marcia3

03-18-2008, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

Good to see you again, Marcia! Big ditto on your last sentence! [/*]

Thanks, SS!

Devotion

03-18-2008, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by old_lady
Good morning everyone.:seeya:

There is absolutely no way, if Maria had clothes on from the waist down, there would not be fragments.

Not 100% of her clothing, panties , shoes, socks, and whatever she was wearing on the bottom half of her body would be gone.

She could have been wearing slacks, shorts, or skirt.

I believe she was wearing nothing from the waist down when rolled into that pit.

jmoo [/*]

I agree there were NO cloths on her, from the waist down when thrown in the hole. WHY is the question.

Let's not forget, CL was telling friends that his wife was pregnant.....why he was telling this, has never been explained.

We have a picture of M. at the ATM hours before her death.
I do not believe she was wearing shorts in December or IF she was truly planning a bus trip that day (which I have never believed)....
There is definitely many pieces of this puzzle still missing..jmo

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Devotion

I agree there were NO cloths on her, from the waist down when thrown in the hole. WHY is the question.

Let's not forget, CL was telling friends that his wife was pregnant.....why he was telling this lie has never been explained.

We have a picture of M. at the ATM hours before her death.
I do not believe she was wearing shorts in December or IF she was truly planning a bus trip that day (which I have never believed)......jmo [/*]

Do we know it was a lie that his wife was not/is not pregnant?

hinman

03-18-2008, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Excellent point, Howie. The only way CL would be charged with rape would be if he was, in fact, the father of the baby. Well, he may not have been charged with rape even if he was the father..... either way (i.e., true or false rape allegation), it certainly confirms in my mind that he did have sex with ML and he was the father.

JMO [/*]I think the fact that her due date was nearing and the article 32 hearing was about to happen also can lead to the theory of a planned murder

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

I think that was determined to be a rumor a long time ago. JMO
AND I might add I beleive that one was started by the press!! Not us!!!! [/*]

Was the rumor that he was telling people his wife was pregnant, or was the rumor that his wife was pregnant?

hinman

03-18-2008, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

Was the rumor that he was telling people his wife was pregnant, or was the rumor that his wife was pregnant? [/*]If I remember correctly, Friends said he told them his wife was pregnant. This was reported by the press along with the fact that he said he would run to Mexico before being charged with rape.

caejde

03-18-2008, 11:36 AM

Morning everyone! I'm late getting in here. Running errands getting ready for my husband's birthday dinner tonight. Gotta go make the cake soon.

Anway, I have to catch up on last nights thread. But I just wanted to say that I don't think this was a planned murder. I could be wrong and if I am, I will gladly admit it. But I was thinking that if the murder was planned, he would have come up with better stories. To me, it sounds like he killed her in a rage and then was like "Oh crap, WTH am I gonna do now?" To me, he didn't think things through at all.

As to Christina being pregnant, I don't know how it got started. But according to news reports-I will say JMO because I dont' know where they are-it was reported that he had been telling friends/coworkers for months that his wife was pregnant. But when the sheriff was questioned on Christina being pregnant, he said they had no reason to believe she was. Again, I'll put JMO opinion because I don't have the link.

Charlotte

03-18-2008, 11:37 AM

My opinion -- and it's only an opinion, no links or other documentation to back it up -- is that the body, or rather the comforter around her, was set afire (very likely with an accelerant) before the dirt was added on top. How long it was allowed to burn before being covered, no idea on that. Then the fires (heat) from above, on perhaps several occasions, added to the damage done from the intial, direct burning.

I think (think, not know) that CL fully intended to burn the body as much as he possibly could. Partly to eliminate her, and partly to eliminate the incriminating (IMO) DNA of the baby.

caejde

03-18-2008, 11:38 AM

Also, I think it possible Maria was wearing capri's. If I remember, it wasn't that cold-50's, 60's. And I know when I was pregnant, I stayed hot constantly.

Devotion

03-18-2008, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Sami

Hi, Devotion :seeya:

I was wondering last night about that bus ticket. I wish we knew if there was a video of Maria buying it. Somehow, I don't think there was, since we've seen the ATM video but nothing has been said about a bus video.

IF there was no video, then we only have the testimony of the bus attendant that Maria bought the ticket herself.

I have always doubted that this guy could have been positively certain of his identification of Maria, considering it had been almost a month since she supposedly bought the ticket.

I think it's possible he might have seen a supposedly pregnant woman who looked the same age and approximate height as Maria who bought a ticket in her name and drove her car. I'm just saying possible, though -- I remain confused totally by the whole thing. . . .

I just think the timeline doesn't fit if it were Maria who bought the ticket at 5:00, and Christina came home at 7:00, completely oblivious to the murder. [/*]

Hi Sami,

I Agree....
Another question I haven't heard is....How many people go through this Bus Terminal in a month?

HOW could the agent be positive it was Maria that bought the one way ticket?

Maka

03-18-2008, 11:42 AM

Say he didn't pour accelerant directly on Maria...

he still would have needed something to help start and keep the fire going for the fence panels. (gas would have been the most convenient since he has the mower and tractor...but who knows)

5 panels missing/reportedly 2 separate incidences of burning...

pouring copious amounts gas or lighter fluid on the wood would seep through the pickets and possibly run off the panels ....

Thinking out loud.

hinman

03-18-2008, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Sami

Happy Birthday to Mr. caedje. :patriot: [/*]:beer: Mr. caedje

For anyone that knows off hand, what does it take for a murder to be considered premeditated? I should know this and I thought it only took a thought, but I can't remember so I would love to be refreshed on that fact.

Jan Powell

03-18-2008, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by old_lady

I agree. The dirt surrounding the body was no doubt all recovered. Body's take very high temperatures to completely burn to ashes as in cremation.

Anyone know a funeral home director?

Within that dirt will be remains of Maria and clothing if there was any. Especially the hip laying next to the bottom of the pit.

jmoo [/*]

Good morning old_lady, I'm attaching a link that speaks to the temp required.

http://www.officer.com/web/online/Investigation/Burning-Evidence/18$33683

A wood fire burns at a temperature of between 800 and 900 degrees centigrade. In a crematorium where a body is supposed to be fully reduced to ash, the temperatures are considerably higher, varying from 1100 to 1500 degrees centigrade. Even in this situation, the bones are not fully decomposed . . . .

hinman

03-18-2008, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Sami

The one who needed a ONE WAY ticket to El Paso was Cesar, imo.

Did they ever find that ticket, btw? [/*]It was reported to have been found in Marias car, but not confirmed and if I remember correctly there was a lot of talk of it not being found and CL using that ticket before we knew where he went.

Charlotte

03-18-2008, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Sami

I agree, Charlotte.

He seemed to have some prior knowledge of those cooking pits, too, imo. [/*]

After all, he is MacGyver, ya know! :biggrin:

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by hinman
:beer: Mr. caedje

For anyone that knows off hand, what does it take for a murder to be considered premeditated? I should know this and I thought it only took a thought, but I can't remember so I would love to be refreshed on that fact. [/*]

There's probably a standard definition out there, but I've always heard just in moments it can be premeditated.

I don't have a problem with this murder being called premeditated......there is a big difference, though, IMO, between premeditated and pre-planned.

hinman

03-18-2008, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

There's probably a standard definition out there, but I've always heard just in moments it can be premeditated.

I don't have a problem with this murder being called premeditated......there is a big difference, though, IMO, between premeditated and pre-planned. [/*]I agree and I think I am leaning more to premeditated then pre planned.

caejde

03-18-2008, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Sami

Happy Birthday to Mr. caedje. :patriot: [/*]

I will pass it on!

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Sami

I agree, Charlotte.

He seemed to have some prior knowledge of those cooking pits, too, imo. [/*]

Wasn't it swc (or it could have been someone else though) who suggested that since CAL is Mexican, he would know about Barbacoa's?

Here's a picture of a Barbacoa in the ground: http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3 Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3DBarbacoa%2Bpit%2Bpictures%26y%3DSearch&w=500&h=375&imgurl=static.flickr.com%2F1019%2F1023685251_7c3bc 53*23.jpg&size=218.1&name=1023685251_7c3bc53*23.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fcadel agarza%2F1023685251%2F&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fcadela garza%2F1023685251%2F&p=barbacoa+pit&type=jpeg&no=2&tt=22

JMO

caejde

03-18-2008, 11:50 AM

Maka

03-18-2008, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Sami

I'm wondering if an accelerant would have been needed to get those fence panels to burn hot enough to force the nails onto the bodies of Maria and Gabriel, or did I misunderstand that part of the report? [/*]

I think the nails just fell due to gravity as the wood disintegrated and let go of them....then on to her body and as her torso 'went away' the nails fell down further

moo

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by Maka

I think the nails just fell due to gravity as the wood disintegrated and let go of them....then on to her body and as her torso 'went away' the nails fell down further

moo [/*]

I would think so since Maria's body weight went from 140 lbs down to 95 lbs when the ME weighed her at autopsy.

Disclaimer: I'm using the 140 lbs as her weight since it was listed on the missing flyer and in all the descriptions of Maria prior to her body being recovered.

JMO

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by hinman
I think the fact that her due date was nearing and the article 32 hearing was about to happen also can lead to the theory of a planned murder [/*]

I agree, Hinman... things were closing in on CL.

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Thanks, nuttin.

Yes, I do think it was swc. And that link is a good one. [/*]

I think it was VC2 who brought it up. Could be both of them discussed it.

GentleBreeze

03-18-2008, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert
Good morn Sam. I find Mimi's theory exceptionally REASONABLE. I would like to add my thought that the total destruction of the limbs and front abdominal area could be
explained by the addition of an excelerant in those specific
areas, especially if it was just squirted on quickly.

I tend to think that a fire hot enough to totally destroy limbs, would also be hot enough to completely destroy clothing below the waist, especially if it was soaked in the excelerant. IMO.

I also wonder if they can determine if any charcoal briquets were added to this fire at any point in time?

There's not a doubt in my mind this coward was attempting to
annihilate all traces of that baby. [/*]

But we don't even know if accelerants were used or found on the body or clothing do we? They tested for it of course as they would do with any body that was charred when found.

Maybe none were found at all and that is why they did not charge him with desecrating a body.:shrug:

imoo

strick10

03-18-2008, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Such a good point, hinman. I DO think the Article 32 was huge to him.

I wish caedje or Strick would speak about the seriousness of the Article 32. I think this was the line in the sand that Cesar was afraid of crossing, with the probable evidence of his truthfulness lying inside Maria. JMO [/*]

Morning Sami. The below link is the Article 32 investigation overview, this is where this where I believe the case was left at before Maria was killed. The investigation was complete and they were getting ready to present the facts to determine if a court martial should be rendered.

http://www.jag.navy.mil/html/NLSOGlakesArticle_32_investigations.htm

I'm not very good at writing what I think as I still write in a military abstract kind of way so I won't try to explain in my way. This JAG link is a good one.

strick10

03-18-2008, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Thank you, strick -- I'll go through the link when the speech is over.

Let me ask you this: Would this have been the first time Cesar would be under oath about the sexual encounter? TIA and Thanks so much for the link. :patriot: [/*]

I don't know. I'm going to have to look into that.

Kel65

03-18-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Sami

You have been missed, Marcia. :seeya:

I definitely think alcohol played a part. I'm also leaning toward a third party involvement. I'm not even convinced that was Cesar at the ATM on the 24th.

I think it might have been an 'unidentified male'. JMO [/*]

I wonder what the listed witness (he has a hispanic name IIRC) for Cesar on the marriage license/certificate looks like. I can't remember his name off hand. I'll have to look it up and go troll Myspace to see if he has an acct. with pictures. Wonder if they look similar, hmmmmm?????

Sherlocksmom

03-18-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

I don't think there ever was a Mapquest, period.

(Hate to open up that can of worms again though. :D ) [/*]

LMAO :beer:

Jan Powell

03-18-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

But we don't even know if accelerants were used or found on the body or clothing do we? They tested for it of course as they would do with any body that was charred when found.

Maybe none were found at all and that is why they did not charge him with desecrating a body.:shrug:

imoo [/*]

I think you may be right GB.

The pit was to bury her in, the fire was to make it look like a traditional firepit.

OT Hope your DD is better. I'm sorry she's suffering such pain.

strick10

03-18-2008, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

I wonder what the listed witness (he has a hispanic name IIRC) for Cesar on the marriage license/certificate looks like. I can't remember his name off hand. I'll have to look it up and go troll Myspace to see if he has an acct. with pictures. Wonder if they look similar, hmmmmm????? [/*]

Someone on this board has actually posted the marriage license/certificate here. I couldn't open it on the computer I was on and forgot to retry opening the doc on another computer later.

GentleBreeze

03-18-2008, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I'm wondering if an accelerant would have been needed to get those fence panels to burn hot enough to force the nails onto the bodies of Maria and Gabriel, or did I misunderstand that part of the report? [/*]

The wood fencing was aged and dried out. It would ignite easily by just putting some newspaper or lit splintered wood under the main fencing.

I think the nails and staples kept going down from gravity pull. As Maia became charred and severely decomposed the dirt's compostion changed in density causing void pockets. She was shrinking from her original weight when alive to the 95 pounds when recovered. As that happened it causes the earth to shift leaving open cavities and crevises where the nails and staples would fall through and land in areas of Maria's body that had become open.

imoo

Kel65

03-18-2008, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Sami

IIRC, he was 'johnny on the spot' -- just lived down the street from Cesar maybe.

Please do try to find out something, Kel. TIA [/*]

I'm can't open up the license on my computer. I have been able to before, but for some reason I'm having difficulty getting the image. I'll keep trying.

GentleBreeze

03-18-2008, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

I think you may be right GB.

The pit was to bury her in, the fire was to make it look like a traditional firepit.

OT Hope your DD is better. I'm sorry she's suffering such pain. [/*]

TY, she is still having a heck of a time with it but hopefully she will recover soon. Thank goodness she is very healthy so that helps her to fight off the infection.

Yes, I think that was what it was for also and CS said they believe the same and that CL had no intents to burn the bodies...only to camoflaugue where he had placed her.

imoo

strick10

03-18-2008, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Thank you, strick.

I'm wondering if before this Article 32, all Cesar has done is to deny the encounters verbally and perhaps sign a statement to that effect.

Do you think he had to sign a statement denying her rape allegation?

And do you think that would have included his having to deny a consensual encounter, too?

TIA [/*]

I believe that he had to have signed a statement denying the rape allegation and the no sex statement. Word of mouth statements doesn't cut it in military investigations. Even at the lowest type of punishment, office hours, a Marine is asked to give and sign a statement. Military law is not so different from civilian law. I'm going to say IMHO, no links.....

strick10

03-18-2008, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Sami
Are ya'll having trouble getting your posts to submit?

Hoping it's not just my computer. . . . [/*]

Kinda sluggish on my end......

GentleBreeze

03-18-2008, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Sami
Are ya'll having trouble getting your posts to submit?

Hoping it's not just my computer. . . . [/*]

I did on my last post, Sami.

I was about to get :flamemad: since I just bought a brand new computer yesterday.:D

It seems better better now though.

imoo

Jan Powell

03-18-2008, 01:00 PM

I hope there was enough of the shirt neckline uncharred to examine if her throat was cut before or after she was disrobed.

I pray the military ME group can positively determine if the throat injury was post mortem. If they can't, IMO, it expands the possibilities of what actually happened (for a defense team) and me too.

caejde

03-18-2008, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by strick10

I believe that he had to have signed a statement denying the rape allegation and the no sex statement. Word of mouth statements doesn't cut it in military investigations. Even at the lowest type of punishment, office hours, a Marine is asked to give and sign a statement. Military law is not so different from civilian law. I'm going to say IMHO, no links..... [/*]

IA with you strick!

caejde

03-18-2008, 01:01 PM

BRB...gonna go get my cake together and put in the oven.

strick10

03-18-2008, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell
I hope there was enough of the shirt neckline uncharred to examine if her throat was cut before or after she was disrobed.

I pray the military ME group can positively determine if the throat injury was post mortem. If they can't, IMO, it expands the possibilities of what actually happened (for a defense team) and me too. [/*]

I'm w/ you Jan. I'm wanting to believe that the Armed Forces ME has more capabilities to determine even more. Not saying that the NC ME didn't do a good job, just saying maybe the DOD ME has more means to determine things the NC ME may not have had the capabilities for.

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 01:07 PM

Here is the direct link to their marriage license: http://deeds.onslowcountync.gov/cottview32.asp?ImageId=00067936&Seq=0001

If you have trouble with the above link, then go here and type in the information: http://deeds.onslowcountync.gov/indexing/idx_simple_name_search.asp

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by strick10

I'm w/ you Jan. I'm wanting to believe that the Armed Forces ME has more capabilities to determine even more. Not saying that the NC ME didn't do a good job, just saying maybe the DOD ME has more means to determine things the NC ME may not have had the capabilities for. [/*]

Hi Strick - Do you know whether the DOD will also release their autopsy report?

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Kel65

I'm can't open up the license on my computer. I have been able to before, but for some reason I'm having difficulty getting the image. I'll keep trying. [/*]

Kel, the R of D's website was acting up and wouldn't display the images. So far today, it's working and I posted the link upthread.

caejde

03-18-2008, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Kel, the R of D's website was acting up and wouldn't display the images. So far today, it's working and I posted the link upthread. [/*]

I think it's my computer...I must not have the Java or whatever it is to be able to see the image. All that shows up is a small red 'x' in the left corner.

Lynn Gweeny

03-18-2008, 01:12 PM

:seeya: Afternoon all!

Reading to catch up, the posts inquiring about the rumor of Christina being pregnant was reported in jdnews.com on January 14th.

Sources who say they know Cesar Laurean through his work have said that he had been telling people that his wife has been pregnant for several months. Investigators say they have no reason to believe that Christina Laurean is pregnant.

http://www.jdnews.com/articles/laurean_54356___article.html/lauterbach_brown.html

Here's the link to the marriage certificate:

http://tinyurl.com/2qhxz8

In the autopsy report, it states that .... a portion of umbilical cord, a fetal long bone, and two vertebral bodies are removed and preserved as evidence.

IMO, that fetal long bone will be what is used to determine DNA, possibly from the marrow. Here's a similar case of a pregnant female being charred in a boiler and even though the fetus was only 12 weeks, DNA was being done to determine paternity.

The medical examiner's office has taken a DNA sample from Miguel Matias, 36, to see if investigators can link him to the fetus, the sources said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/02/22/2008-02-22_teen_dumped_in_boiler_was_pregnant.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/02/16/2008-02-16_bronx_superintendent_put_daughter_in_boi.html

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by caejde

I think it's my computer...I must not have the Java or whatever it is to be able to see the image. All that shows up is a small red 'x' in the left corner. [/*]

That's probably it caejde! I have screen shot the image and will work on uploading later today.

Tell Mr. caejde, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 01:21 PM

TY Lynn!

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 01:22 PM

Screen shots of the CL's marriage license:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Marriagelicense4.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Marriagelicense3.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Marriagelicense2.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Marriagelicense1.jpg

And you will need to enlarge the pics on your computer in order to see the writing better.

These are public records so any and everyone can see them.

JMO

strick10

03-18-2008, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Hi Strick - Do you know whether the DOD will also release their autopsy report? [/*]

Doubt they will release it to the public. Perhaps release it to Marias family/LE/attorneys if they request it. It may be awhile before their findings are known to us unless the persons with results provide it to the public. There is nothing on the Armed Forces ME web page that allows for a person to request the results so in as far that I can find.

strick10

03-18-2008, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by caejde

I think it's my computer...I must not have the Java or whatever it is to be able to see the image. All that shows up is a small red 'x' in the left corner. [/*]

I see the same x and I've got just about every imaginable image reader on my work computer you can think of. Shhh, I'm not here.

Jan Powell

03-18-2008, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by strick10

I'm w/ you Jan. I'm wanting to believe that the Armed Forces ME has more capabilities to determine even more. Not saying that the NC ME didn't do a good job, just saying maybe the DOD ME has more means to determine things the NC ME may not have had the capabilities for. [/*]

That's what I meant too, more capabilities and at their immediate disposal. Especially reconstruction and DNA retrival and testing.

caejde

03-18-2008, 01:32 PM

Thanks for posting screencaps nuttin! So, Amber wasn't married when her and Cesar got married yet. I still would like to know how Cesar/Christina met.

strick10

03-18-2008, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Screen shots of the CL's marriage license:

-snipped-
And you will need to enlarge the pics on your computer in order to see the writing better.

These are public records so any and everyone can see them.

JMO [/*]

Thanks nuttintodo!

strick10

03-18-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by caejde
Thanks for posting screencaps nuttin! So, Amber wasn't married when her and Cesar got married yet. I still would like to know how Cesar/Christina met. [/*]

They met at the main side PX.......:biggrin: JK'ing. I'd like to know how they met too. Students at Johnson typically like to rent hotel/motel rooms out in town during the weekends and hit the bars/clubs. It was that way when I was there in 1982 and still that way when I returned to Johnson for a SNCO course in 1996/97. I'm thinking they may have met at some club. Maybe CSL was buying drinks for underaged CAL.

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 01:38 PM

GentleBreeze

03-18-2008, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Did it break through her skin? Poor girl. Or is it a closed fracture?
Tell her we said :mad: (sad) for her foot... [/*]

She has 53 stiches. She is on crutches and her leg is still swollen twice its normal size.

Ugggh and moms and dads have to act so strong in times like this but I could have thrown up when I first looked at those gaping wounds. Some of the tissue was ripped out so she may have an indention for awhile.:(

We take her back again tomorrow unless the red streak spreads more. She said it has gone beyond what they marked off but not much more so maybe the antibiotics are kicking in now.

Thanks for askimg, Annie..

imoo

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Doubt they will release it to the public. Perhaps release it to Marias family/LE/attorneys if they request it. It may be awhile before their findings are known to us unless the persons with results provide it to the public. There is nothing on the Armed Forces ME web page that allows for a person to request the results so in as far that I can find. [/*]

Thanks, Strick.

caejde

03-18-2008, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

Amber?

:chicken: [/*]

Christina's sister.

caejde

03-18-2008, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by strick10

They met at the main side PX.......:biggrin: JK'ing. I'd like to know how they met too. Students at Johnson typically like to rent hotel/motel rooms out in town during the weekends and hit the bars/clubs. It was that way when I was there in 1982 and still that way when I returned to Johnson for a SNCO course in 1996/97. I'm thinking they may have met at some club. Maybe CSL was buying drinks for underaged CAL. [/*]

It was that way when I was there in 2000! So it is possible she was at Johnson finishing up her MOS school.

mini-me

03-18-2008, 01:48 PM

Can anyone help me with the following questions.

1. If i was at Maria's house and wanted to go to Jacksonville would I have to pass the base?TIA

2. How long would it take to get from ATM where Maria was last seen to bus depot.

3 How long to get from bus depot to CAl's house.

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Christina's sister. [/*]

TY!

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 01:51 PM

I have been asked to put up the pictures from the autopsy report showing the injuries and COD since there are some who can't view the pictures contained in the report.

There are a total of nine pictures. The link source for the pictures is: http://www.jdnews.com/attachments/jxqt6p-lauterbachautopsy1.pdf Pages 4-7.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy1.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy2.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy3.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy4.gif

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy5.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy6.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy7.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy8.jpg

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
Can anyone help me with the following questions.

1. If i was at Maria's house and wanted to go to Jacksonville would I have to pass the base?TIA

2. How long would it take to get from ATM where Maria was last seen to bus depot.

3 How long to get from bus depot to CAl's house. [/*]

1. Yes one would have to pass by the Main Gate

2. Because it was a payday Friday, during the holiday season, it would have taken Maria approximately 30 minutes to get from the Piney Green ATM to the bus station.

3. Again, because it was a payday Friday, during the holiday season, it would have taken about 30 minutes or so to get from the bus station to CAL's house.

# 2 & 3 are dependent upon the traffic and I will say that traffic would have been horrendous during that time. Payday Friday's here are just one of those times it is better to stay home!

JMO

strick10

03-18-2008, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by caejde

It was that way when I was there in 2000! So it is possible she was at Johnson finishing up her MOS school. [/*]

Not knowing what MOS CSL is, haven't had time to stop by the Marine Reserve Center, I can't say for sure she was @ Johnson at the same time as CAL. Let's see, CAL graduated bootcamp in Dec 2004 (as per the MC presser) so I'm thinking w/ his leave (maybe), holidays and stand down time for his class waiting to pick up he probably finished Admin. school in Mar 05. IIRC MW5 said CSL was about 4 months pregnant when she asked her recruiter for guidance which would place her at 5 months pregnant when they married, no links to this so ...... Yeah, I'd have to say they met while CAL was in Admin school. I'm having to think CSL was already completely in the Marine Reserves. Maybe they met when she was conducting her yearly AT at CLNC.

mini-me

03-18-2008, 02:07 PM

caejde

03-18-2008, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

1. Yes one would have to pass by the Main Gate

2. Because it was a payday Friday, during the holiday season, it would have taken Maria approximately 30 minutes to get from the Piney Green ATM to the bus station.

3. Again, because it was a payday Friday, during the holiday season, it would have taken about 30 minutes or so to get from the bus station to CAL's house.

# 2 & 3 are dependent upon the traffic and I will say that traffic would have been horrendous during that time. Payday Friday's here are just one of those times it is better to stay home!

JMO [/*]

Not exactly sure where Maria lived as I have never looked it up. But you could take Piney Green to 17 and not go by the base. Yes, pay day Friday's are terrible! I was thinking nuttin...we drove on Henderson to get to 17 the other day. Now, the bus station is not far from Henderson-one light up I think. So she could have taken Henderson to Gum Branch and bypassed Western all together...which would have saved maybe 10 minutes. But I do agree that everything is dependent on traffic.

caejde

03-18-2008, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Not knowing what MOS CSL is, haven't had time to stop by the Marine Reserve Center, I can't say for sure she was @ Johnson at the same time as CAL. Let's see, CAL graduated bootcamp in Dec 2004 (as per the MC presser) so I'm thinking w/ his leave (maybe), holidays and stand down time for his class waiting to pick up he probably finished Admin. school in Mar 05. IIRC MW5 said CSL was about 4 months pregnant when she asked her recruiter for guidance which would place her at 5 months pregnant when they married, no links to this so ...... Yeah, I'd have to say they met while CAL was in Admin school. I'm having to think CSL was already completely in the Marine Reserves. Maybe they met when she was conducting her yearly AT at CLNC. [/*]

True. I was forgetting we didn't know Christina's MOS. She probably was already in the Reserves. I wonder if she was visiting her sister as her sister was on base at the time. I see on the marriage license it shows Christina's address as that in Ohio. I know it does for Cesar since that's his HOR. But I was wondering if Christina still lived in OH and was just visiting when she met Cesar....just speculation as we don't have any of that info.

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 02:16 PM

I don't know if Lynn posted this already but if she did, please forgive me.

http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/news/local_news.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-03-18-0036.html

The Lauterbach family is speaking out in response to the autopsy report that was just released.

The attorney for the Lauterbachs, Merle Wilberding, says the autopsy proves what they knew all along.

JMO

hinman

03-18-2008, 02:17 PM

mini-me

03-18-2008, 02:26 PM

caejde

03-18-2008, 02:27 PM

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Not exactly sure where Maria lived as I have never looked it up. But you could take Piney Green to 17 and not go by the base. Yes, pay day Friday's are terrible! I was thinking nuttin...we drove on Henderson to get to 17 the other day. Now, the bus station is not far from Henderson-one light up I think. So she could have taken Henderson to Gum Branch and bypassed Western all together...which would have saved maybe 10 minutes. But I do agree that everything is dependent on traffic. [/*]

Maria was at 2668 Idlebrook, which is in the Hunter's Creek subdivision, off of 24 and just before the Midway Park housing area begins.

She used the ATM (I say MFCU, Trace Gallagher from Faux says the BoA) in the Piney Green shopping center.

From all my experiences driving around J'ville, I would never drive Piney Green Road, since it's two lanes on a payday Friday since Hwy. 24 (Freedom Way) is 4 lanes and then goes to 6 lanes once you get across the Northeast Creek Bridge. Plus if Maria drove down PG Road, that would increase her travel time to the bus station and/or CAL's house.

From the WallyWorld intersection Henderson, I think it is the third stoplight---Western/17, then 17/Bell Fork Rd., then 17/Onslow Drive to go to the bus station.

In my guesstimations I only used the normal routes I would travel to and fro the above destinations.

As it has been in this case, we simply don't know the route Maria took on that fateful day of 12/14/07.

JMO

Regina.Lampert

03-18-2008, 02:30 PM

strick10

03-18-2008, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by caejde

True. I was forgetting we didn't know Christina's MOS. She probably was already in the Reserves. I wonder if she was visiting her sister as her sister was on base at the time. I see on the marriage license it shows Christina's address as that in Ohio. I know it does for Cesar since that's his HOR. But I was wondering if Christina still lived in OH and was just visiting when she met Cesar....just speculation as we don't have any of that info. [/*]

Do you know what HP 195 means in regards to the address that Amber has listed on the marriage certificate? I've never head of a CLNC address listed as such. Maybe Amber was MOS schooled at Johnson and she met CAL that way and introduced him to CSL whom may have been visting at the time. Amber is closer to age to CAL and maybe their MOS schooling led to the meeting...i dunnnnnnoooooo.

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
Thanks Caejde and now I have another question.
If I was at the base going to Maria's house would I pass the place where they found the cell phone. Would I be on the right side of the road to throw it out the window so it would land where it did? I'm from Canada so don't know the area. [/*]

No you wouldn't. If you were coming off through the Main Gate, you would take the Piney Green/Swansboro exit which would not take you anywhere close by where her phone was found---this exit would take you in the opposite direction.

If you exited from the Piney Green gate, you still wouldn't go anywhere by where her phone was found. When you exited the PG gate, you would make a left onto Hwy. 24/Freedom Way, go across the RR tracks and take the next right into Hunter's Creek.

JMO

caejde

03-18-2008, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Maria was at 2668 Idlebrook, which is in the Hunter's Creek subdivision, off of 24 and just before the Midway Park housing area begins.

She used the ATM (I say MFCU, Trace Gallagher from Faux says the BoA) in the Piney Green shopping center.

From all my experiences driving around J'ville, I would never drive Piney Green Road, since it's two lanes on a payday Friday since Hwy. 24 (Freedom Way) is 4 lanes and then goes to 6 lanes once you get across the Northeast Creek Bridge. Plus if Maria drove down PG Road, that would increase her travel time to the bus station and/or CAL's house.

From the WallyWorld intersection Henderson, I think it is the third stoplight---Western/17, then 17/Bell Fork Rd., then 17/Onslow Drive to go to the bus station.

In my guesstimations I only used the normal routes I would travel to and fro the above destinations.

As it has been in this case, we simply don't know the route Maria took on that fateful day of 12/14/07.

JMO [/*]

See I'm opposite...I don't ever go on 24 because we live I guess north of it. My husband works on Piney Green. And yes we hate it...he's got in an accident on it already. And you're right, Henderson is the next road after Onslow. And you're right again, that Piney would add to her travel time...forgot how long that road is! So the ATM she used is the one at Piney/24-the Food Lion, Burger King and such is all right in that same parking lot correct? And it would make sense to get back out on 24 to get to the bus station...I personally just don't know how to get there from the ATM she used. **Still learning my way around here.

And we dont' know the route she used. I was thinking she probably got back onto 17 and went to Western or got back on 17 and turned onto Gumbranch. But when we drove all the way down to Henderson to 17, i thought that could possibly be another way for her to travel and *maybe* save some time.

mini-me

03-18-2008, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

No you wouldn't. If you were coming off through the Main Gate, you would take the Piney Green/Swansboro exit which would not take you anywhere close by where her phone was found---this exit would take you in the opposite direction.

If you exited from the Piney Green gate, you still wouldn't go anywhere by where her phone was found. When you exited the PG gate, you would make a left onto Hwy. 24/Freedom Way, go across the RR tracks and take the next right into Hunter's Creek.

JMO [/*]Would that mean if I going from Maria's house heading to Jacksonville I would pass where the phone was?

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Do you know what HP 195 means in regards to the address that Amber has listed on the marriage certificate? I've never head of a CLNC address listed as such. Maybe Amber was MOS schooled at Johnson and she met CAL that way and introduced him to CSL whom may have been visting at the time. Amber is closer to age to CAL and maybe their MOS schooling led to the meeting...i dunnnnnnoooooo. [/*]

HP 195 refers Hadnot Point Bldg. 195 (which is Mainside). That may be the barracks that Amber was residing in at the time. Hubby isn't here so I can't ask him exactly where HP 195 is.

Acronym time for all:

HB refers to any building on Holcomb Blvd., the main drag when entering CL.

HP is Hadnot Point or Mainside

FC is French Creek, which is where CLG is located.

CHB is Courthouse Bay, where the Engineers are.

OB is Onslow Beach

RR is the Rifle Range

I thinks that's all.

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
Would that mean if I going from Maria's house heading to Jacksonville I would pass where the phone was? [/*]

Yes you most certainly would. The phone was located in the median area just before crossing Northeast Creek Bridge.

You would also go pass the exit to enter the base via the Main Gate.

JMO

strick10

03-18-2008, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

HP 195 refers Hadnot Point Bldg. 195 (which is Mainside). That may be the barracks that Amber was residing in at the time. Hubby isn't here so I can't ask him exactly where HP 195 is.

Acronym time for all:

HB refers to any building on Holcomb Blvd., the main drag when entering CL.

HP is Hadnot Point or Mainside

FC is French Creek, which is where CLG is located.

CHB is Courthouse Bay, where the Engineers are.

OB is Onslow Beach

RR is the Rifle Range

I thinks that's all. [/*]

Thanks nuttin. I thought it might be a barracks. Don't know whay she would use that address. Maybe she couldn't remember her correct mailing address. Uggghhhh FC!

mini-me

03-18-2008, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Yes you most certainly would. The phone was located in the median area just before crossing Northeast Creek Bridge.

You would also go pass the exit to enter the base via the Main Gate.

JMO [/*]Okay that helps me with my theory. Thanks.

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by caejde

See I'm opposite...I don't ever go on 24 because we live I guess north of it. My husband works on Piney Green. And yes we hate it...he's got in an accident on it already. And you're right, Henderson is the next road after Onslow. And you're right again, that Piney would add to her travel time...forgot how long that road is! So the ATM she used is the one at Piney/24-the Food Lion, Burger King and such is all right in that same parking lot correct? And it would make sense to get back out on 24 to get to the bus station...I personally just don't know how to get there from the ATM she used. **Still learning my way around here.

And we dont' know the route she used. I was thinking she probably got back onto 17 and went to Western or got back on 17 and turned onto Gumbranch. But when we drove all the way down to Henderson to 17, i thought that could possibly be another way for her to travel and *maybe* save some time. [/*]

The ATM, whichever one it was, (but I still think it was MFCU since the mysterious truck was in the background the day I took pictures) is in the PG shopping center where BK, FL, Advance Auto Parts, Subway, Golden Corral, KMart are all located.

That's way I naturally figured Maria would leave the PG shopping center, turn right onto 24, either take the Western Blvd. exit or even perhaps the Bell Fork exit then go on to the bus station (and for all we know, go down to Hargett St./Johnson Blvd and go from there to the bus station).

I have always dreaded PG Rd., the traffic has always been SO bad there regardless of what day of the month it is. I'm sorry your husband has already had a wreck on it, but it seems that is par for the course! :(

JMO

Marcia3

03-18-2008, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

What a sad visual. Just look at how little of her was left.

Horrifying what human beings do to each other, JMO. We are so aghast when a mountain lion or bear attacks someone and kills them, to me this is something to really be aghast about- humans who kill thier own fellow human beings. Animals? What do they do, go mentally primal when they kill a fellow human being? These are things I wonder. So JMO y'all. [/*]

I wonder sometimes if killers don't have that "it seemed like a good idea at the time" thing going when they kill. Like they could temporarily, in that moment, justify their actions?

Animals kill to survive and to protect their young. Humans kill for a lot of "reasons" but none make sense to me, IMO. (Except of course for war and self-defense/defense of someone else).

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean
I respectfully request all posters on this forum who live in the general area of CLJ meet. go out to lunch, then ride around and take pics of things the rest of us can only imagine. And pls include a pic of CL's house as it is TODAY.
If I had the money, I would even offer to pay for the lunch.
(If you go to Burger King by the bus station, take pics of that too)LOL

Edited to add: Then download the pics to us!

JMO

AB:D [/*]

This is in the works, AB! ;)

caejde

03-18-2008, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

This is in the works, AB! ;) [/*]

It is?

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by caejde

It is? [/*]

Read your incoming. :D

BarbraAllen

03-18-2008, 03:10 PM

Hi everyone, trying once more to post! Every time I tried to post today I got a white screen, till now.

Lots of interesting (and sad) links to read today. I cannot imagine what it must have been like for Maria's family to see that autosy report. I think of how horrified we are, and we are strangers.

It's good to hear that GentleBreeze's daughter appears to be on the mend, I hope she continues to progress well. And so sorry that Mimi428's daughter has had an accident, thinking of her as well today.

On another note I read the link about cremation, and this makes me think even more that this was not a planned crime. Surely Cesar would have researched this if he had thought about it ahead of time. If he had gone to a library then the research could not have been tracked on his home computer, right? I would think if he researched it he would not have tried to burn her body.

But then I also think about the concept of "hiding in plain sight." Perhaps he thought that since he was openly out there burning that no one would think anything about it. Because, after all, who among us would see a neighbor burning something and have any thought at all it might be a human being?

So now I will hit submit and see if my post goes through.

caejde

03-18-2008, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Read your incoming. :D [/*]

yea, I just got it...I was MIA...school nurse was on the phone!

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by caejde

yea, I just got it...I was MIA...school nurse was on the phone! [/*]

Nothing bad, I hope.

caejde

03-18-2008, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by old_lady
I believe there is more then enough of the body left to get clothing fragments from the waist down and maybe DNA from a sexual assault. JMO

There was no clothing from the waist down. JMO

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/Nuttintodo/Picfromautopsy1.jpg [/*]

Not trying to be gross in any way but I doubt there is anything left of her vagina to tell if there was a sexual assault. Her uterus could not be identified and I highly doubt anything outside in that area could be identified either.

caejde

03-18-2008, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Nothing bad, I hope. [/*]

No, she thinks he might have asthma. So taking him to doc on Friday.

Lynn Gweeny

03-18-2008, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
I don't know if Lynn posted this already but if she did, please forgive me.

http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/news/local_news.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-03-18-0036.html

The Lauterbach family is speaking out in response to the autopsy report that was just released.

The attorney for the Lauterbachs, Merle Wilberding, says the autopsy proves what they knew all along.

JMO [/*]

Thanks for posting this, nuttin, and thanks for posting those screen shots of the autopsy report that some posters were having difficulty viewing because they were in pdf format. If they haven't been posted over on the Autopsy thread, I'll move them over there for easy access. Again, thanks! :seeya:

There was an article yesterday at wnct.com with a video report by Bob Jones, but nothing new other than a segment where Sheriff Brown is quoted as saying ... "I will never forget what I saw there that day. And, it will brand my mind, but it won't stop my life," said Brown. Also both interesting and encouraging was this comment by the reporter about the release of the autopsy .... But perhaps these horrific details will continue to fuel the hunt for her suspected killer.

http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/search.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-03-17-0067.html

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

I believe we can never put what we think onto what a killer is thinking since we are not killers. They have no feelings, empathy, or compassion. It is all about them. They have no guilt feelings after either.

JMO [/*]

I'm gonna be a devil's advocate here. I don't think we can put labels on ALL killers.

I think it's quite possible that SOME killers have SOME feelings, some empathy, some compassion. Maybe not to the people they kill. But it's not impossible. I also believe SOME killers do have guilt feelings and remorse.

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Read your incoming. :D [/*]

WONDERFUL idea for you guys!!! :beer:

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 03:20 PM

I think lumping all murderers together is a mistake and there's nothing to be learned from such a thing, thus the different levels of the charge.

Making attempts at analyzing a heat of the moment/crime of passion murderer is much different from analyzing a serial killer just out there waiting for opportunity, or only seeking certain qualities in their victims IMO.

Not to mention we have people committing murder as well as suicide and it's being suggested it's related to the usage of certain drugs.

Then you have murderers who commit the act out of mercy.

Far too many variables to make claims about them feeling nothing or only doing it for themselves IMO.

I firmly believe it's the stresser or catalyst that speaks to the mind and ability to feel guilt and/or remorse.

We still don't know if this was a crime of passion/heat of the moment type of murder. However, some of the actions after the murder leave much to think about as far as the perpetrator(s) of this particular crime.

ALL JMOOC.

:o

hinman

03-18-2008, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

"They have no feelings, empathy, or compassion. It is all about them. They have no guilt feelings after either."

OK, quoting myself and editing my post.:D

He has no feelings, empathy, or compassion. It is all about him. He has no guilt feelings after either. I feel most if not every killer is the same.

MOO of course. [/*]Oh I agree that Cl has no empathy or feelings for what he did.

I think that fact that he left her buried and burned in his back yard for about 30 days is all the evidence I need for that one.

( I do think some people who have murdered feel guilt) When it comes to self defense or an accidental killing those are all murders.

Some people murder in the heat of the moment and I am sure probably regret it later. Bar fights and even school fights happen this way).

Marcia3

03-18-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

I'm gonna be a devil's advocate here. I don't think we can put labels on ALL killers.

I think it's quite possible that SOME killers have SOME feelings, some empathy, some compassion. Maybe not to the people they kill. But it's not impossible. I also believe SOME killers do have guilt feelings and remorse. [/*]

ITA. Not all killers commit their crime in cold blood, IMO, and I am certain that some have killed and immediately regretted it and were horrified of what they were capable of in that moment.

JMO

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by hinman
Oh I agree that Cl has no empathy or feelings for what he did.

I think that fact that he left her buried and burned in his back yard for about 30 days is all the evidence I need for that one.

( I do think some people who have murdered feel guilt) When it comes to self defense or an accidental killing those are all murders.

Some people murder in the heat of the moment and I am sure probably regret it later. Bar fights and even school fights happen this way). [/*]

I dunno hinman (and old lady)....you know, I don't necessarily agree that one of the marks of empathy or compassion or remorse is confession. I think one can feel guilty, and even perhaps sorry for what one has done, but at the same time, the overriding and most compelling need is for self-preservation. Don't get me wrong....I'm not justifying what CL did (fleeing after so long a period of time). But I'm saying that most murderers are scared out of their mind of being locked up forever or worse, being executed for their crime. Understandably.

One example of someone who confessed fairly quickly was Gary Hickman (I think I have the name right, not sure), the guy who killed the hiker? And then recently he's been charged with even more murders. Anyway I don't think he confessed because he felt remorse or any compassion for her family or her memory. Not by a long shot.

So what's the difference between Cesar and this Hickman guy? One confessed, one is on the run. I don't think you can analyze each of them on that basis as to empathy etc. They are both murderers.

I think Cesar may well be remorseful. I just don't have any clue. The fact that he is not facing the music doesn't sway me one way or the other. I think he's terrified of what will happen to him.

At any rate he needs to be punished for what he did. His remorse or lack thereof isn't really important. It's the deed.

All IMO.

Marcia3

03-18-2008, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES
I think lumping all murderers together is a mistake and there's nothing to be learned from such a thing, thus the different levels of the charge.

Making attempts at analyzing a heat of the moment/crime of passion murderer is much different from analyzing a serial killer just out there waiting for opportunity, or only seeking certain qualities in their victims IMO.

Not to mention we have people committing murder as well as suicide and it's being suggested it's related to the usage of certain drugs.

Then you have murderers who commit the act out of mercy.

Far too many variables to make claims about them feeling nothing or only doing it for themselves IMO.

I firmly believe it's the stresser or catalyst that speaks to the mind and ability to feel guilt and/or remorse.

We still don't know if this was a crime of passion/heat of the moment type of murder. However, some of the actions after the murder leave much to think about as far as the perpetrator(s) of this particular crime.

ALL JMOOC.

:o [/*]

Well said, absolutely in total agreement!

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 04:27 PM

Thanks to everybody for the great links today!

I was a little bit leery to open the autopsy pictures, but I finally did and was relieved to find they weren't photographs - whew. Anyway, they were still horrible.

It appears to me, if the hatch marks are the badly charred areas, that the front of her right thigh was not badly charred - and I would think that if any of her lower clothing was in there, that is where the fragments would be.

JMO, and thanks again for all the links.

mini-me

03-18-2008, 05:07 PM

GPEAS I am still working on your theory no1. Won't get it finished today having trouble finding information. Example ticket to El Paso was it purchased on the Dec 14 or 15. I'm begining to think the Dec 15 so CAL could use it. The reason I say that is because whether she was abducted or he was making her leave town, she didn't have to stay on that bus. Could have got off at next stop and call for help.

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
GPEAS I am still working on your theory no1. Won't get it finished today having trouble finding information. Example ticket to El Paso was it purchased on the Dec 14 or 15. I'm begining to think the Dec 15 so CAL could use it. The reason I say that is because whether she was abducted or he was making her leave town, she didn't have to stay on that bus. Could have got off at next stop and call for help. [/*]

IIRC, the ticket was purchased on Dec 14 to be used Dec 15 (although apparently you can still use the ticket for something like 6 months or something; in other words, it doesn't HAVE to be used on Dec 15).

JMO

mini-me

03-18-2008, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I'm pretty sure it was reported as being the 14th, mini-me.

That's a good point you make, too -- that just because Cesar might have been forcing her to take a bus, she could have exited that bus at any time, especially being pregnant. Plenty of reasons for a bus driver to accommodate her, imo. [/*]The more I work on my theory the more I question everything we know. I went and looked at RS answer about the bus ticket and he didn't answer that question. Yet it was in the media about the ticket and I feel he could have told us what day it was actually purchased. Plus what time.

hinman

03-18-2008, 05:23 PM

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
The more I work on my theory the more I question everything we know. I went and looked at RS answer about the bus ticket and he didn't answer that question. Yet it was in the media about the ticket and I feel he could have told us what day it was actually purchased. Plus what time. [/*]

I agree with what you are saying in your first sentence. It is very difficult for me to write out a theory without some key information that we don't have access to. I just have so many directions I could go in, and each one has so many permutations on some of the details.

hinman

03-18-2008, 05:33 PM

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Sami
I'd like to know when Christina got to that Christmas party.

I just can't see her getting there early and hanging out until 7:00, all alone, fielding questions as to where her husband was.

If Christina didn't get to the party until 5:30, or thereabouts, then I'd sure be suspicious about the buyer of the ticket.

But I bet LE has already covered all those bases. JMO [/*]

If the unit party was over in the French Creek area of CLNC, it would have taken Christina about 40-45 minutes to get home, with the traffic as it was on 12/14. So that would mean that CSL left the party roughly around 6:15 or so in order to be home at 7 that night.

No one will tell us when Christina got to the party on 12/14/07, but they sure want us to know she was home at 7. :shrug:

December 14, 2007 was a very fateful day. :(

Lynn Gweeny

03-18-2008, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by hinman
I would love to know why it was determined the ticket was going to be used on the 15th. I wonder if you have to specify a date? [/*]

Roshaun Hames told CNN affiliate WNCT-TV on Friday that he sold the ticket to Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach around 5 p.m. on December 14.

(snip)

Hames said he thought Lauterbach was alone when she bought the ticket and that she drove off after asking if she could leave her car at the station, WNCT reported.

(snip)

The ticket was good for six months, but Lauterbach was scheduled to use it December 15, Hames told WNCT

http://www.waaytv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7611174

hinman

03-18-2008, 05:37 PM

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Sami

But like I said earlier, the computer might give the exact day, time, and name on the ticket, but the specific identification of the buyer is left up to the clarity of the bus station attendant to identify her, almost a month later.

I'm kinda of the opinion that all supposedly pregnant women might look similar to him. JMO [/*]

I would feel as though the computer records at the bus station would give the time, date, name, etc. as to when the ticket was purchased.

As to Mr. Hames definitive identification of Maria, that is one question that RS won't answer, sadly!

I would like to think that if CAL used Maria's ticket, surely THAT little tidbit would have been announced or at least leaked to someone in the media by now. Lynn also provided us links to where Rusty Dornin of CNN said that she thought Maria's bus ticket was found in her car (I do believe this was stated on NG's show, so take it for what it's worth).

JMO

strick10

03-18-2008, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Sami
I'd like to know when Christina got to that Christmas party.

I just can't see her getting there early and hanging out until 7:00, all alone, fielding questions as to where her husband was.

If Christina didn't get to the party until 5:30, or thereabouts, then I'd sure be suspicious about the buyer of the ticket.

But I bet LE has already covered all those bases. JMO [/*]

I'd like to know that too. Very few and I mean very few command parties end that late. IME if they secured you a noon that meant that you had about an hour or so to go back home to change and then meet at the party. Alot of enlisted ranks don't really like going to command functions cause they can't per se really let loose as there are too many higher ranks around keeping an eye on things. In this case, I cannot find a single thing about when the party started or ended. I can't even find if the command party was at the company, regiment etc. level which would help decipher a more probable time for this party to have occurred.

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Sami

At 5:00 on Friday, how long to go from the bus station to the base, nuttin? TIA [/*]

She could have made it from the bus station to FC, oh I'd say in about 40 minutes. The traffic headed back to the base isn't nearly as bad on payday's----everyone is trying to get the heck outta there, LOL.

So if CSL arrived at the party around 5:40, she could have stayed until roughly 6:15, then left and been home by 7.

As to whether she picked up her daughter from her sister or a babysitter's, CSL could have left the party at around 6, picked the daughter up and still been home by 7. (All depending on who had the baby)

ETA JMO

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by strick10

I'd like to know that too. Very few and I mean very few command parties end that late. IME if they secured you a noon that meant that you had about an hour or so to go back home to change and then meet at the party. Alot of enlisted ranks don't really like going to command functions cause they can't per se really let loose as there are too many higher ranks around keeping an eye on things. In this case, I cannot find a single thing about when the party started or ended. I can't even find if the command party was at the company, regiment etc. level which would help decipher a more probable time for this party to have occurred. [/*]

Strick, how many wives would attend their husband's unit party without the husband being present? Both of my daughter's say that is a very uncommon thing to do.

My understanding is this was simply a unit party, not command.

JMO

mini-me

03-18-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

I agree with what you are saying in your first sentence. It is very difficult for me to write out a theory without some key information that we don't have access to. I just have so many directions I could go in, and each one has so many permutations on some of the details. [/*]To my way of thinking Maria either went to CAl house on her own or she was abducted. I really believe he abducted her. I'm trying to follow a time line. CAL places himself at the bus depot. Was that because he was spotted by another marine?

Lynn Gweeny

03-18-2008, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I would feel as though the computer records at the bus station would give the time, date, name, etc. as to when the ticket was purchased.

As to Mr. Hames definitive identification of Maria, that is one question that RS won't answer, sadly!

I would like to think that if CAL used Maria's ticket, surely THAT little tidbit would have been announced or at least leaked to someone in the media by now. Lynn also provided us links to where Rusty Dornin of CNN said that she thought Maria's bus ticket was found in her car (I do believe this was stated on NG's show, so take it for what it's worth).

JMO [/*]

That's right, nuttin. I'm still not sure IF that ticket was actually found since when going back and listening to some of the PCs early on, it's still unclear if the actual ticket itself was found. It seems that only Rusty Dornin has made a comment about the ticket and that was on NG's show on 1/15:

BROOKS: Rusty, again, the ticket -- the one-way ticket to El Paso, it wasn`t used, but was it recovered in her car or recovered anywhere?

DORNIN: It was -- I`m pretty sure it was recovered from her car.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/15/ng.01.html

This is what Sheriff Brown said on 1/13:

Onslow County News Conference on Pregnant Marine (Jan. 13) (15:47)

@10:40 in the video he states that they don’t have the ticket and that it was not redeemed.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/2296564/

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Thanks, nuttin.

So, on a close timeline like they might have been working with, Christina would have had to be seen driving away from the bus station in the car (after asking if she could park it there, since the plan was to eventually bring it back).

Then, she could have met up with Cesar and switched autos, or would it have been just as easy for her to drive back to their house -- would that have been longer and out of her way in getting to the base? TIA [/*]

The only thing is that if she drove Maria's car (only assuming this is what you meant), there would have been somebody at the party who would have recognized Maria's car.

And if CSL and CAL switched autos, that would have decreased the amount of time she would have been at the party. I think that would have put her arriving at the party closer to 6 or a little bit there after.

JMO

strick10

03-18-2008, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

If the unit party was over in the French Creek area of CLNC, it would have taken Christina about 40-45 minutes to get home, with the traffic as it was on 12/14. So that would mean that CSL left the party roughly around 6:15 or so in order to be home at 7 that night.

No one will tell us when Christina got to the party on 12/14/07, but they sure want us to know she was home at 7. :shrug:

December 14, 2007 was a very fateful day. :( [/*]

You know nuttin I just had a thought. Usually command functions don't go over the regular duty hours by much. I'm having to think the party ended at about 5 or 5:30. Now if it were a family type of command party then I'd have to think that the command would hold the party on a date when the kids were out of school for the holiday so they could attend, even then though the party would still end around the 5 o'clock mark, I'd think. As always there's always stragglers that may get out a bit later, clean up party etc.. IME a party that allows for the Marines work day to end at 12 would run from 1 to about 4:30 or 5.

Lynn Gweeny

03-18-2008, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Sami
Here's why I've always thought the bus ticket buyer was suspicious.

First, it was one way for a very pregnant Maria.

Second, Cesar made SURE he put in the note that he had gone with her to buy the ticket. I just think that's SO strange. Maria would have had to go to atm at 4:20, go to Cesar's house, VERY QUICKLY talk him into accompanying her to the bus depot by 5:00. I don't think that's credible timing without a prior plan in place.

And third, I think he put in the note that he went with her, possibly because he was afraid someone might have seen his truck at the bus depot.

One of the reasons his truck might have been there, was that he had to switch automobiles with Christina there so she could hurry off to the party in the truck while he drove Christina's car back to their house to clean up the mess.

That's why I'm wondering, was the bus station closer to the base than Cesar's house? [/*]

Sami, here's a map that was posted on jdnews.com to show the relation of the bus station, the base, and the Durham residence and the Laurean residence.

http://www.jdnews.com/attachments/1200146269-lauterbacktimelinemap.jpg

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny

That's right, nuttin. I'm still not sure IF that ticket was actually found since when going back and listening to some of the PCs early on, it's still unclear if the actual ticket itself was found. It seems that only Rusty Dornin has made a comment about the ticket and that was on NG's show on 1/15:

BROOKS: Rusty, again, the ticket -- the one-way ticket to El Paso, it wasn`t used, but was it recovered in her car or recovered anywhere?

DORNIN: It was -- I`m pretty sure it was recovered from her car.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/15/ng.01.html

This is what Sheriff Brown said on 1/13:

Onslow County News Conference on Pregnant Marine (Jan. 13) (15:47)

@10:40 in the video he states that they don’t have the ticket and that it was not redeemed.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/2296564/ [/*]

I would tend to believe SB over Rusty (no I'm not knocking her either) because I just feel if that ticket had been recovered in her car, or wherever, that would have made the news.

Sadly that ticket may have been thrown into the pit with her along with the MPO that was issued after September 24, 2007. And there's the possibility that CAL used both to help start one of the bonfires.

JMO

Lynn Gweeny

03-18-2008, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I would tend to believe SB over Rusty (no I'm not knocking her either) because I just feel if that ticket had been recovered in her car, or wherever, that would have made the news.

Sadly that ticket may have been thrown into the pit with her along with the MPO that was issued after September 24, 2007. And there's the possibility that CAL used both to help start one of the bonfires.

JMO [/*]

I totally agree with you on that. When I went back and listened to that wral video of SB talking about not having the ticket, and even though it was 2 days before Rusty Dornin reported that she was 'pretty sure' about the ticket, I then questioned Rusty's report. And, no offense to Rusty by me, either, just would rather hear it from SB or Capt. Sutherland. JMO

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by strick10

You know nuttin I just had a thought. Usually command functions don't go over the regular duty hours by much. I'm having to think the party ended at about 5 or 5:30. Now if it were a family type of command party then I'd have to think that the command would hold the party on a date when the kids were out of school for the holiday so they could attend, even then though the party would still end around the 5 o'clock mark, I'd think. As always there's always stragglers that may get out a bit later, clean up party etc.. IME a party that allows for the Marines work day to end at 12 would run from 1 to about 4:30 or 5. [/*]

Yes I am following your train of thought. I, too, would certainly think the party wouldn't have gone past the 5-5:30 range. Especially if it were held at the unit. Now if it was over at the O club, SNCO or the E club, I could go along with the party lasting longer.

I do know the children were not out of school for the Christmas holidays on 12/14, they actually got out the next week.

JMO

strick10

03-18-2008, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Strick, how many wives would attend their husband's unit party without the husband being present? Both of my daughter's say that is a very uncommon thing to do.

My understanding is this was simply a unit party, not command.

JMO [/*]

Not many wives would attend w/out their husbands unless their husbands are deployed and that wife has other Marine wives friends in the unit that they would feel comfortable w/. In this case I'd have to say, why would CSL show up at CALs units party by herself. Now when you say unit, the unit is part of the command, there are section, company, reginmental, battalion etc. parties that can be called a unit party.

Jan Powell

03-18-2008, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by SavannahStar

I'm gonna be a devil's advocate here. I don't think we can put labels on ALL killers.

I think it's quite possible that SOME killers have SOME feelings, some empathy, some compassion. Maybe not to the people they kill. But it's not impossible. I also believe SOME killers do have guilt feelings and remorse. [/*]

I agree, especially if it was a crime of passion. I believe this was a crime of passion (meaning anger and rage) but I can't quite figure out who's passion.

Lynn Gweeny

03-18-2008, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Thanks, Lynn.

Hinman and I both faintly remember hearing someone reporting that Cesar might have used that ticket. Did you hear that? TIA [/*]

Not officially because most of the information out there about the ticket was that it was never redeemed, whether they found the actual paper/card ticket or not, it's not been used. Most reports have been that it was "bought in Lauterbach's name" and "not redeemed". JMO

ETA ~ comment by Capt. Sutherland in this 1/31 jdnews.com article ..... The bus ticket Lauterbach purchased Dec. 14 - the day authorites say she died - has not been redeemed as far as investigators know, said Capt. Rick Sutherland of the Sheriff's Department..

http://www.jdnews.com/articles/_54753___article.html/_.html

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Great map, Lynn -- I've never seen that!

So, there's no way for Christina to go back home and switch autos, so Cesar would have had to follow her to the bus station to enable her to leave from there in the truck to go to the party.

I just never could understand why he would be with Maria at the bus station or why he put it in his note, but he might have been there with Christina. Suspicious, imo. [/*]

There is the possibility that CAL accompanied Maria to the bus station in HER car and then she took him back home. That would account for her second appearance at the Laurean house on 12/14.

But as has been the case, CAL has proven to me that he cannot be believed in all his 'statement's' (little novellas) so far.

Ya know like his written word that Maria produced a knife and slit her own throat, etc., etc.

JMO

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Not many wives would attend w/out their husbands unless their husbands are deployed and that wife has other Marine wives friends in the unit that they would feel comfortable w/. In this case I'd have to say, why would CSL show up at CALs units party by herself. Now when you say unit, the unit is part of the command, there are section, company, reginmental, battalion etc. parties that can be called a unit party. [/*]

I am referring to a company party when I say unit, sorry. I get those mixed up, LOL. Thank you for the correction strick!

Can you ever forgive me? Please, purty please? hammer

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by old_lady
MS Peas, why don't you just write down your thoughts. All of them. I don't see why a theory has to be written like a story. What I think RS wants to see if there are any thoughts about the case they haven't thought of themselves.

Maybe list your thoughts in shorter paragraphs.

They could each be different and just explain to RS in the beginning what you are doing. You could say you have several different ways this case could be.

Just thinking........ [/*]

I am slowly working on a theory document, old lady...

strick10

03-18-2008, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I am referring to a company party when I say unit, sorry. I get those mixed up, LOL. Thank you for the correction strick!

Can you ever forgive me? Please, purty please? hammer [/*]

Awwww, no need to forgive as it's no biggie......but....okay you're forgiven. So it is for sure that it was a company party? If that's the case the same times would apply IMO, especially more so that the kids were still in school so it was probably a company party that invited the wives. Now if CSL stayed longer she may have accompanied others to another site as some Marines tend to continue the party away from the original party site where they can kick up their heels from out of their superiors watchful eyes.

strick10

03-18-2008, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Awwww, no need to forgive as it's no biggie......but....okay you're forgiven. So it is for sure that it was a company party? If that's the case the same times would apply IMO, especially more so that the kids were still in school so it was probably a company party that invited the wives. Now if CSL stayed longer she may have accompanied others to another site as some Marines tend to continue the party away from the original party site where they can kick up their heels from out of their superiors watchful eyes. [/*]

Hee, hee, gonna respond to my own post, just had another thought. What if CAL never intended on attending the party in the first place but Christina thought he would be there and decided to stop by the check up on him? What leads me to believe this is because of the distance it would take CAL to drive home just to change over. Most Marines that live off base bring in their civies into work with them and just change over at work and go on to the party.

caejde

03-18-2008, 06:34 PM

K, been doing some thinking....can't ya see the smoke?

I don't think we know of Maria's whereabouts after noon on 12/14 until she gets to the ATM around 4:20 pm. If she were not abducted, it's highly likely that she and Cesar spoke on the phone and he said to meet him at the bus station around 5 pm. Either he didn't show up or he showed up and he left her there...which then it turn caused her to go to his house-which according to him would be the 2nd time. Or it's possible she called and asked if they could talk and he said 'yes, come on over'-which would be the first time...and this could have been anywhere between noon and I say 3:45.

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 06:41 PM

Strick and Caejde - these office parties - is it common for people to show up a couple of hours after the party begins?

The reason I am asking is that ML told her mother during the 2:30 phone call (which, btw, that map Lynn just posted says this call was made from ML's residence) that she was going to the party. And her mother said that they made arrangements for ML to call her after the party.

JMO, no link

henry

03-18-2008, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Nuttin, was it you who provided the pic of the ticket counter at the bus station? I remember there didn't seem to be a security camera, and that really surprised me. [/*]

wasn't it about a month after the ticket purchase that mr. yellowjacket was questioned? hah! "we" can't remember what was said here yesterday :) . . . so he was shown one picture, imo, and said "yes, that's her" being the atentive/responsible person he is . . . also another poster, iirc :), recounted a description of him as being more interested in his other activities while working.

. . . also wanted to add my 1.5 cents . . . are we squeezing the timeline because of xtina's statements or am i missing something?

hinman

03-18-2008, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by caejde
K, been doing some thinking....can't ya see the smoke?

I don't think we know of Maria's whereabouts after noon on 12/14 until she gets to the ATM around 4:20 pm. If she were not abducted, it's highly likely that she and Cesar spoke on the phone and he said to meet him at the bus station around 5 pm. Either he didn't show up or he showed up and he left her there...which then it turn caused her to go to his house-which according to him would be the 2nd time. Or it's possible she called and asked if they could talk and he said 'yes, come on over'-which would be the first time...and this could have been anywhere between noon and I say 3:45. [/*]Caejde good thoughts.

You know what throws a kink in it for me. That the clerk at the bus station said she asked to leave her car there. I think that is how he remembered her. SO if we are to believe it was her because he ID her then why did she ask to leave her car there??

mini-me

03-18-2008, 06:45 PM

If Cesar and Christine both worked on the base why would they need to take two cars?

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by henry

wasn't it about a month after the ticket purchase that mr. yellowjacket was questioned? hah! "we" can't remember what was said here yesterday :) . . . so he was shown one picture, imo, and said "yes, that's her" being the atentive/responsible person he is . . . also another poster, iirc :), recounted a description of him as being more interested in his other activities while working.

. . . also wanted to add my 1.5 cents . . . are we squeezing the timeline because of xtina's statements or am i missing something? [/*]

I agree about the bus station attendant - a lot of time had passed since that ticket was purchased.

As to your second paragraph, I think some posters are working on a theory that ML was murdered after the 4:19 ATM withdrawal and that CSL posed as ML at the bus station. But JMO.

caejde

03-18-2008, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
If Cesar and Christine both worked on the base why would they need to take two cars? [/*]

Having to be at work different times of the morning, getting off work different times in the afternoon....

caejde

03-18-2008, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by hinman
Caejde good thoughts.

You know what throws a kink in it for me. That the clerk at the bus station said she asked to leave her car there. I think that is how he remembered her. SO if we are to believe it was her because he ID her then why did she ask to leave her car there?? [/*]

It's possible she told Cesar she was trying to leave that day and that is why she asked if she could leave her car. However, I think after finding out she couldn't she needed her car until the next day when she could leave.

mini-me

03-18-2008, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by hinman
Caejde good thoughts.

You know what throws a kink in it for me. That the clerk at the bus station said she asked to leave her car there. I think that is how he remembered her. SO if we are to believe it was her because he ID her then why did she ask to leave her car there?? [/*]If your leaving on a one way ticket why would anyone ask if they could leave their car. That sounds odd to me. Why would Maaria need someone with her to buy a bus ticket. From El Paso you could get a bus to Nevada couldn't you?

henry

03-18-2008, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

I agree about the bus station attendant - a lot of time had passed since that ticket was purchased.

As to your second paragraph, I think some posters are working on a theory that ML was murdered after the 4:19 ATM withdrawal and that CSL posed as ML at the bus station. But JMO. [/*]

and before xtina came home? tia

caejde

03-18-2008, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
Strick and Caejde - these office parties - is it common for people to show up a couple of hours after the party begins?

The reason I am asking is that ML told her mother during the 2:30 phone call (which, btw, that map Lynn just posted says this call was made from ML's residence) that she was going to the party. And her mother said that they made arrangements for ML to call her after the party.

JMO, no link [/*]

Whenever we had our family days and it was a unit thing-meaning all 800+ Marines/Sailors and their families it went from like 1000-1500 and you could show up whenever. If it was just a section thing-just the people you work with on a daily basis-it was usually over in a couple of hours. As for company-which would be 100 or so, it still wouldn't be odd for it to be winding down after a couple of hours. I think if Maria had any intentions on going to the party she wouldn't have waited until 2:30 pm to go...just my opinion though.

hinman

03-18-2008, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
If your leaving on a one way ticket why would anyone ask if they could leave their car. That sounds odd to me. Why would Maaria need someone with her to buy a bus ticket. From El Paso you could get a bus to Nevada couldn't you? [/*]I am having problems posting so hopefully this goes through.

I can't remember if she wanted to leave her car there on the day she bought the ticket or the next day when she left?

I am not even sure it was specified but it makes no sense.

Lynn do you have a link where the attendant talks about her asking to leave her car or am I just dreaming this.

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by henry

and before xtina came home? tia [/*]

lol, I am not sure...

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Whenever we had our family days and it was a unit thing-meaning all 800+ Marines/Sailors and their families it went from like 1000-1500 and you could show up whenever. If it was just a section thing-just the people you work with on a daily basis-it was usually over in a couple of hours. As for company-which would be 100 or so, it still wouldn't be odd for it to be winding down after a couple of hours. I think if Maria had any intentions on going to the party she wouldn't have waited until 2:30 pm to go...just my opinion though. [/*]

Okay, thanks.

Well that is just odd then - why would ML tell her mother she was going to the party? (unless she had mentioned the party to her mother on an earlier day)

Maka

03-18-2008, 07:04 PM

henry

03-18-2008, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
The more I work on my theory the more I question everything we know. I went and looked at RS answer about the bus ticket and he didn't answer that question. Yet it was in the media about the ticket and I feel he could have told us what day it was actually purchased. Plus what time. [/*]

when mr. yellowjacket (rhames) was interviewed by media . . . he pointed to the computer (which was off screen) and said it's all kept in the computer . . . that famous video link no longer works . . . darn . . . jmo

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 07:06 PM

henry

03-18-2008, 07:11 PM

mini-me

03-18-2008, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Interesting thought... (and leads credence to my theory of abduction in the parking lot) [/*]Yes and mine to. But why would Christine be there?

mini-me

03-18-2008, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Good question... [/*]Was it a set up stay until I tell you to come home.

henry

03-18-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
If Cesar and Christine both worked on the base why would they need to take two cars? [/*]

that's a big if . . . cause iirc there was no mention of what xtina was doing during the day prior to being brought back on base 1-08 . . . jmo

Maka

03-18-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Lyn_T

...

ATM Lowes Parking lot Jan 27, 08
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh301/tay972/atm2001.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh301/tay972/atm001.jpg

Hope it helps. Weather was terrible that weekend so only pics I got was on way out of town at the ATM. There were people at Laureans and I didn't stop. [/*]

TY!
I can't believe he didn't think the camera would 'see' him approaching. (guess he thought that little grapevine crossover step he made would protect him)

This is the kind of thing he needs to keep doing....little things that will expose him...wherever he is.

henry

03-18-2008, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Okay, thanks.

Well that is just odd then - why would ML tell her mother she was going to the party? (unless she had mentioned the party to her mother on an earlier day) [/*]

iirc - lots of those now! - maria told her mom (as her mom recounted) that she didn't want to go to the party 'cause cesar would be there . . . and that's when her mom said - well you have the restraining order - i'm worried about you so call me tonite when you get home so i know you're okay . . . jmo

strick10

03-18-2008, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Whenever we had our family days and it was a unit thing-meaning all 800+ Marines/Sailors and their families it went from like 1000-1500 and you could show up whenever. If it was just a section thing-just the people you work with on a daily basis-it was usually over in a couple of hours. As for company-which would be 100 or so, it still wouldn't be odd for it to be winding down after a couple of hours. I think if Maria had any intentions on going to the party she wouldn't have waited until 2:30 pm to go...just my opinion though. [/*]

I second that opinion.

I don't think Maria planned on attending the party at all. As I said before, most troops are too thrilled to attend unit parties unless there's going to be some exciting event going on at the party. You say it's not mandatory and those young Marines that do show up won't hesitate to leave the minute they can.

henry

03-18-2008, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Lyn_T

AB I don't live in the area but will share what I came up with in [/*]

:eek: did you get license plate #s :cool:

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
Was it a set up stay until I tell you to come home. [/*]

Could be....

strick10

03-18-2008, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

Okay, thanks.

Well that is just odd then - why would ML tell her mother she was going to the party? (unless she had mentioned the party to her mother on an earlier day) [/*]

Maybe just conversation of Marias part. Her getting off early because of the party would probably lead to the party talk. It's very unlikely Maria planned on going IMO. Being 15 - 20 min. late is okay but anything longer than that is uncommon.

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 07:27 PM

oh wait... didn't they say at the MC PC that CL did not attend the party? or am I remembering wrong?

Devotion

03-18-2008, 07:29 PM

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Maybe just conversation of Marias part. Her getting off early because of the party would probably lead to the party talk. It's very unlikely Maria planned on going IMO. Being 15 - 20 min. late is okay but anything longer than that is uncommon. [/*]

I think Caejde said some of these parties were "drop-in" affairs, as you could go whenever you wanted. I obviously have no idea myself.

strick10

03-18-2008, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by Maka

I wondered...in light of the MPO...if they didn't arrange time slots for CL and Maria to attend.
for example:
CL from 12:00 to 2:30
ML from 2:45 to finish [/*]

IMO w/ regards to the MPO they probably directly asked both of them if they intended on attending. The unit would need a head count to figure out how much food, soda etc. they would need to serve at the party. If you say you're not going that means just that. There's no maybies here. You either plan to attend or not. We don't know if either Maria or CAL planned on attending. Being that Marial told her mom at 2:30 that she was thinking on going tells me that she really had not intended on going due to the hour. I am now thinking that CAL never intended on going to the party due to the civie thing.

strick10

03-18-2008, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Lyn_T

-snipped-

Hope it helps. Weather was terrible that weekend so only pics I got was on way out of town at the ATM. There were people at Laureans and I didn't stop. [/*]

Thanks! Who was at the house LynT? :D Just kidding.

Did it appear that there were alot of people there? What date was this?

strick10

03-18-2008, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Simply my gut feeling she did not WANT to go to the party. JMO and IMO. [/*]

And she didn't have to go if she didn't want to.

Maka

03-18-2008, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by strick10

IMO w/ regards to the MPO they probably directly asked both of them if they intended on attending. The unit would need a head count to figure out how much food, soda etc. they would need to serve at the party. If you say you're not going that means just that. There's no maybies here. You either plan to attend or not. We don't know if either Maria or CAL planned on attending. Being that Marial told her mom at 2:30 that she was thinking on going tells me that she really had not intended on going due to the hour. I am now thinking that CAL never intended on going to the party due to the civie thing. [/*]

Hard to say about his intention at the time of the head count for munchies, but
how odd would it be to let them know...."Hey my wife's going to show up in my place. I can't make it cuz I'm busy doing something last minute" ?

Darn, I wish we could find someone in his unit to find out.

strick10

03-18-2008, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

I think Caejde said some of these parties were "drop-in" affairs, as you could go whenever you wanted. I obviously have no idea myself. [/*]

I wouldn't quite call them that. When I reached the SNCO ranks I would take a looksey to see which of my troops were there whether the event was mandatory or not. It's an unwritten rule that you show up to a non mandatory party for a bit then leave. Of course there are those that don't show at all in which I would question the following workday as to why they didn't make an appearance. Marines that showed up an hour or later after the party just doesn't look right. For family days or family events, arriving an hour or so late would be okay as there's kids etc. to get ready and whatnot. Sometimes the Marine will show up w/ kids in tow and the wife will arrive later.

strick10

03-18-2008, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Maka

Hard to say about his intention at the time of the head count for munchies, but
how odd would it be to let them know...."Hey my wife's going to show up in my place. I can't make it cuz I'm busy doing something last minute" ?

Darn, I wish we could find someone in his unit to find out. [/*]

Now that is just odd. If a troop was telling me that I'd tell him, "What the h377 are you thinking? You bring your wife, you don't send your wife in your place" and of course add some seasoned words inbetween there, just so the Marine gets a good taste.

strick10

03-18-2008, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
oh wait... didn't they say at the MC PC that CL did not attend the party? or am I remembering wrong? [/*]

Sorry, I can't remember if they did or didn't. I do remember they mentioned that Maria elected not to go. I do recall someone mentioning that CAL did not show up at the party can't remember where I heard.

henry

03-18-2008, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Now that is just odd. If a troop was telling me that I'd tell him, "What the h377 are you thinking? You bring your wife, you don't send your wife in your place" and of course add some seasoned words inbetween there, just so the Marine gets a good taste. [/*]

so would it be a safe/reasonable/possible assumption to assume that xtina had her own invite to the party . . . which would mean she was working on base in some capacity?

Maka

03-18-2008, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Now that is just odd. If a troop was telling me that I'd tell him, "What the h377 are you thinking? You bring your wife, you don't send your wife in your place" and of course add some seasoned words inbetween there, just so the Marine gets a good taste. [/*]

::snickers and giggles:: :chicken:

So many unanswered Qs
I wondered if they had a Santa for the kids or gave out coloring books and such too.

Maybe we should all hire a PI.

Howiefan

03-18-2008, 08:02 PM

Didn`t marinewife5 say that the party started after lunch and only lasted a couple of hours or did she get other info that this was not true.
jmo

strick10

03-18-2008, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by henry

so would it be a safe/reasonable/possible assumption to assume that xtina had her own invite to the party . . . which would mean she was working on base in some capacity? [/*]

Her own invite? Not likely. A unit party is just that. No outsiders are invited unless the invitation is open to the Marines family. If you show up alone, okay. Your wife shows up but not you...hmmmm, what is going on. CAL would have had to have told her about the party. Maybe she is friends with some CALs co-workers or co-workers wives, I dunno. Maybe that gave her an excuse to show up in the pretense to wait for CAL or expecting CAL to already be there.

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 08:02 PM

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by strick10

I wouldn't quite call them that. When I reached the SNCO ranks I would take a looksey to see which of my troops were there whether the event was mandatory or not. It's an unwritten rule that you show up to a non mandatory party for a bit then leave. Of course there are those that don't show at all in which I would question the following workday as to why they didn't make an appearance. Marines that showed up an hour or later after the party just doesn't look right. For family days or family events, arriving an hour or so late would be okay as there's kids etc. to get ready and whatnot. Sometimes the Marine will show up w/ kids in tow and the wife will arrive later. [/*]

Okay, thanks! I sure wish we knew when this party began and ended...

SavannahStar

03-18-2008, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Her own invite? Not likely. A unit party is just that. No outsiders are invited unless the invitation is open to the Marines family. If you show up alone, okay. Your wife shows up but not you...hmmmm, what is going on. CAL would have had to have told her about the party. Maybe she is friends with some CALs co-workers or co-workers wives, I dunno. Maybe that gave her an excuse to show up in the pretense to wait for CAL or expecting CAL to already be there. [/*]

That's what I was going to say. Again. I know I've mentioned it before. We don't know HER relationship with people in that unit....other wives, women, etc. And maybe there was NO pretense. I'm still having a difficult time not believing that she just wanted to go to the party and he didn't for whatever reason(s). And I never have bought the idea that she was sitting there fuming because he didn't show up. Hey maybe she was a big party type person and he was not into parties at all. It's not that unusual for married couple to be different like that. One of my best friends and her husband are the opposite.....the friend is always out with friends and partying and the guy doesn't care for it. They have a fine marriage too!

Until I get some concrete proof otherwise, that's how I think right now.

gaelicpeas

03-18-2008, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan
Didn`t marinewife5 say that the party started after lunch and only lasted a couple of hours or did she get other info that this was not true.
jmo [/*]

lol, I don't remember, Howie!

strick10

03-18-2008, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Maka

::snickers and giggles:: :chicken:

So many unanswered Qs
I wondered if they had a Santa for the kids or gave out coloring books and such too.

Maybe we should all hire a PI. [/*]

I'm thinking it may not have been as the kiddos were not on xmas break yet. Doesn't make sense to have santa w/ no kids. Usually if it's for the kids as well the command would wait until the xmas break period so everyone could attend. Who knows, this may not have been a party where the wives were invited. I can't find anyplace on the net that talks about the party. The times for the party are pretty important here I think in order to place CSL somewhere. I pretty sure the LE has established that she was there but just cause she was there doesn't mean she was there for a long time.

strick10

03-18-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan
Didn`t marinewife5 say that the party started after lunch and only lasted a couple of hours or did she get other info that this was not true.
jmo [/*]

MW5 is about right. Like I said in my earlier post. You secure the troops at noon so they can go change into civilian attire. Party probably went from 1 - 4:30 - 5:00ish.

strick10

03-18-2008, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean
IIRC the people in the unit got off a noon for a party that started sometime thereafter? I will not swear to this but it sounds right in my muddled head tonight....anybody else remember it that way? [/*]

Can't remember if someone actually verified the start time but it sounds about right. Your head isn't muddled to me. Gonna pm you have a question.

henry

03-18-2008, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Lyn_T

LOL no....that was the weekend after Greta was there and the J'ville paper reported CSL's lawyers said they needed a warrant. Didn't want to take a chance on them being her lawyers. Drove to the end of the culdesac and eased on out.

BTW, I kept hearing about the WOODS in the back of the house. There are no woods there. Their back fence backs up to a tree line (just one tree deep) that has a mobile home park there with quite a few mobile homes. Not much distance between that fence and the homes. [/*]

yup . . . i have an aerial view of their home . . . click on satelitte view and then move around . . . wish google could get in closer :cool: - i'm using this icon as a spy icon . . . fyi and jmo
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=103+Meadow+Trail,+Jacksonville,+NC+28546,+U SA&sa=X&oi=map&ct=image

henry

03-18-2008, 08:19 PM

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean
IIRC the people in the unit got off a noon for a party that started sometime thereafter? I will not swear to this but it sounds right in my muddled head tonight....anybody else remember it that way? [/*]

Yes you are remembering well. MW5 did say they got off at noon and the party started sometime soon afterwards.

I also agree with Strick that the party shouldn't have lasted past the 5-5:30 timeframe.

JMO

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by henry

yup . . . i have an aerial view of their home . . . click on satelitte view and then move around . . . wish google could get in closer :cool: - i'm using this icon as a spy icon . . . fyi and jmo
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=103+Meadow+Trail,+Jacksonville,+NC+28546,+U SA&sa=X&oi=map&ct=image [/*]

henry, if you download the latest version of Google Earth, you can get down even closer. ;)

henry

03-18-2008, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

henry, if you download the latest version of Google Earth, you can get down even closer. ;) [/*]

hot stuff . . . i'm going there now . . . and you're hot stuff!!!! thanks :cool:

crymeariver2006

03-18-2008, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Maka

TY!
I can't believe he didn't think the camera would 'see' him approaching. (guess he thought that little grapevine crossover step he made would protect him)

This is the kind of thing he needs to keep doing....little things that will expose him...wherever he is. [/*]

And where was the second person supposed to be standing to put the rag over the camera and why weren't they seen approaching too? He/she couldn't have walked thru that glass.

(For those that believe in the second person at the ATM theory)

:shrug:

strick10

03-18-2008, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by henry

thanks . . . just trying to figure out what occupied xtina's time before returning to the base in january. would someone in the reserves be invited to the party? [/*]

Not unless they were doing their active time w/ the unit. AT usually happens during the summer months so I doubt that was the case this time.

henry

03-18-2008, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by strick10

Not unless they were doing their active time w/ the unit. AT usually happens during the summer months so I doubt that was the case this time. [/*]

okay . . . now was xtina in the same unit when she was full time (don't know the correct mc terminology to use - sorry!)

strick10

03-18-2008, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by henry

okay . . . now was xtina in the same unit when she was full time (don't know the correct mc terminology to use - sorry!) [/*]

Can't say if she was. I need to go by the local Marine Reserve Center here to find out what her MOS is. That may help pin point a little bit more. I don't know why, but she rubs me as a motor transport kind of gal.

Maka

03-18-2008, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

And where was the second person supposed to be standing to put the rag over the camera and why weren't they seen approaching too? He/she couldn't have walked thru that glass.

(For those that believe in the second person at the ATM theory)

:shrug: [/*]

Dunno...I always thought it was his left hand with the rag and he was rotating his palm in the process of extending it...like you would when you shove someone.

Dunno why he'd be so dense to not cover his face...was he high?

and for that matter...why not use his right hand...it was closest to the camera on approach...just thinking out loud lol

baywench

03-18-2008, 09:12 PM

Nuttin IIRC my impression on the bus ticket was that SB said something that made me believe she had booked and paid for the bus ticket but it was still in the computer and unused. Do you remember anything like that?

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by baywench

Nuttin IIRC my impression on the bus ticket was that SB said something that made me believe she had booked and paid for the bus ticket but it was still in the computer and unused. Do you remember anything like that? [/*]

Yes bay that's what was told. LynnG posted the two links earlier, one in which Rusty Dornin (CNN) who said she thought they recovered the ticket in Maria's car and the second one where SB was commenting that her ticket had not been redeemed.

Then a few minutes ago I was over looking at some RS's comments he made at JDNews and he said there the ticket was purchased on the 14th to be used on the 15th.

JMO

baywench

03-18-2008, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Yes bay that's what was told. LynnG posted the two links earlier, one in which Rusty Dornin (CNN) who said she thought they recovered the ticket in Maria's car and the second one where SB was commenting that her ticket had not been redeemed.

Then a few minutes ago I was over looking at some RS's comments he made at JDNews and he said there the ticket was purchased on the 14th to be used on the 15th.

JMO [/*]

My bad for not reading everything. Thanks! I was trying to get through Sunday posting but had to keep taking a break to find my Chi.....intense day. I still need to go back and finish. Yikes! My memory was that the ticket was not redeemed but I got confused when I keep seeing posting about maybe the ticket was in the car or CL used it. IMO

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 09:38 PM

Don't worry about it bay. I can totally understand not going all the way back and trying to catch up---we do write too much! :D

Hope your evening goes better for you too.

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by WeeFeet
Can anyone submit a theory? [/*]

Why yes of course, this is a public messageboard. Submit away. :D
jmo

hinman

03-18-2008, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by WeeFeet
Can anyone submit a theory? [/*]Welcome :seeya:
anyone can submit a theory.

Would love to read all theories so please submit one if you have one.

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by WeeFeet
Can anyone submit a theory? [/*]

Please do, the more the merrier!

baywench

03-18-2008, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Please do, the more the merrier! [/*]

We are probably a little weary of each other's theories. Hey! That ryhmed!.

strick10

03-18-2008, 09:48 PM

Night all :seeya: Time for this gal to hit the rack.

CANDYKISSES

03-18-2008, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by WeeFeet

Where would I be able to submit it? [/*]

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=324292

done nuttin

Jan Powell

03-18-2008, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by mini-me
If your leaving on a one way ticket why would anyone ask if they could leave their car. That sounds odd to me. Why would Maaria need someone with her to buy a bus ticket. From El Paso you could get a bus to Nevada couldn't you? [/*]

I'm not sure there was anyone with her.

As I understand it, the only time you need any ID at all for a bus ticket is if it's an E-ticket.

Or if another person pays for the ticket by CC and the traveler isn't the card holder. It would also require a password established at the time of purchase and known by the traveler.

I had both of these instances happen last year at Christmas time with my grandson.

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

I'm not sure there was anyone with her.

As I understand it, the only time you need any ID at all for a bus ticket is if it's an E-ticket.

Or if another person pays for the ticket by CC and the traveler isn't the card holder. It would also require a password established at the time of purchase and known by the traveler.

I had both of these instances happen last year at Christmas time with my grandson. [/*]

I don't know but it's beginning to sound as though catching the bus is the best way to get out of Dodge and the country!

henry

03-18-2008, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by strick10
Night all :seeya: Time for this gal to hit the rack. [/*]

:patriot: good nite strick10 . . . i'm right behind you . . . going to bed ! and thanks for all your help answering my questions today.

Jan Powell

03-18-2008, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I don't know but it's beginning to sound as though catching the bus is the best way to get out of Dodge and the country! [/*]

I think you are right.

I believe I read some of the new travel laws are way stricter on air and sea as far as ID requirements.

I've wondered for a while now if the reason the man at the bus station remembered anything about Maria is because it was an E-ticket (maybe originated in El Paso?). Those reservations are made date specific as opposed to open-ended for a walkup.

nuttintodo

03-18-2008, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Jan Powell

I think you are right.

I believe I read some of the new travel laws are way stricter on air and sea as far as ID requirements.

I've wondered for a while now if the reason the man at the bus station remembered anything about Maria is because it was an E-ticket (maybe originated in El Paso?). Those reservations are made date specific as opposed to open-ended for a walkup. [/*]

Could be but SB and RS are so adamant that Maria, herself, bought the ticket in person, at the Jacksonville bus station and the ticket hasn't been redeemed nor found.

JMO

baywench

03-18-2008, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Could be but SB and RS are so adamant that Maria, herself, bought the ticket in person, at the Jacksonville bus station and the ticket hasn't been redeemed nor found.

JMO [/*]

I am so on the fence about whether or not he actually left on the bus. ALthouth I understand LE can only move so fast (and I certainly never expected there would be instant alerts received at the bus station) so much of the evidence (witnesses on the bus, truck at hotel, Maria's card found) seem like breadcrumbs left to take us in a certain direction. I think he may not be nor never went to Mexico. It all just seems so obvious. Why would he talk to the bus driver? He would have no way of knowing how fast they could get alerts out. JMO

baywench

03-18-2008, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Could be but SB and RS are so adamant that Maria, herself, bought the ticket in person, at the Jacksonville bus station and the ticket hasn't been redeemed nor found.

JMO [/*]

ITA that information would be on the computer so unlike so much of the information we have it would be easy to track. IMO

Babes

03-18-2008, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Opining only.

According to the autopsy report, the fire burned with hotter intensity in an almost isolated area around the abdomen. That speaks volumes to me, as to the intent, and makes me readily opine that an accelerant was used to try to destroy evidence of a sexual encounter that Cesar had stated never took place. JMO [/*]

I am also confused - why not burned the whole thing and throw the ashes and bones and clean the backyard - they have all the time in the world - why leave some items/parts of the body unburned - I just dont get it :seeya: