Saturday - 03/15/08 - a.m.

[henry]

good morning . . . it's tough opening today after attempting to get some sleep . . . my thoughts & prayers go out to maria, gabriel, her family & friends.

thought i'd repost some of the Q&A that were answered in the 1st round of questions . . .

9) Do you know if Maria had purchased any baby items? We know the answers to these questions, we can not release the info at this time.

21) Was Maria's body directly burned or was she buried and then a fire built over her grave? If she was burned directly, what type of accelerant was used? Will a charge of desercating a body be added at a later date? Charges will be determined by the DA. The Pathologists reports will address the burning issue. I do not anticipate those being released prior to trial.

23) At the time the SW was executed on the Laurean home, was there any type of digging implement found? We know the answers to these questions, we can not release the info at this time.

24) Were Maria's glasses recovered? If they were, where were they found and in what condition were they in? Not all of her personal property has been recovered to date. We will not address exactly what has been recovered.

25) In Maria's ATM photo, she's wearing a Dayton sweatshirt---did she have this on when her body was recovered? The clothing that she was wearing is something that will be admitted at trial.

[crymeariver2006]

I wonder if he even knew the autopsy would be made public? And maybe he did. Hoping that it would infuriate or upset someone so much that if they were helping or hiding Cesar that they would stop.

[henry]

i was thinking the same thing . . . but was over at greta vs's blog and nothing there . . . maybe they're waiting to get dr. baden on to comment? but at least she could do a post heading!!!!

[crymeariver2006]

O/T *possible* tornado rips thru downtown Atlanta. Some damage to the Georgia Dome where they were having the SCC basketball tourney. Blew out windows to Omni Hotel. Damage to Centennial Park as well. 20 injuries being reported so far.

(tornado not confirmed yet. Sometimes straight line winds will cause similar damage).

Prayers for all our GA folks this morning. More storms expected this afternoon.



:rose:

[henry]

Originally posted by old_lady
Henry, are the new questions back already?
I'm watching Atlanta news. I hope no posters here were involved in that horrible tornado. [/*]

yikes . . . didn't know about atlanta! we'll just have to wait for morning check-in/attendance and prayers in the meantime.

nope - questions not back - i'm sure nuttintodo will post them on that thread.

[henry]

i have a mc procedural question if anyone can help me . . . regarding the military protective order . . . once this is requested, how do they go about completing & issuing one . . . what paperwork documentation has to be submitted . . . and where is all of it kept after one has been issued . . . from a recordkeeping & file system/retrieval perspective? tia

[Regina.Lampert]

Good morning everyone.

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


The military asked to conduct a second autopsy on Lauterbach following a state performed autopsy.

Lauterbach's family gave its approval for the Marine autopsy, which was completed Tuesday, Hudson said.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/23/missing.marine/ [/*]

I believe the marine corps did an autopsy to keep their option of trying laurean open.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert
Good morning everyone.

[i]

I believe the marine corps did an autopsy to keep their option of trying laurean open. [/*]

And possibly try to determine fetal age (which would have been a significant piece of evidence in any rape case down the line).

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


And possibly try to determine fetal age (which would have been a significant piece of evidence in any rape case down the line). [/*]

Cryme, I was thinking the umbilical cord might reveal the gender and age too. However, I am surprised that the state ME wouldn't have done a more thorough exam to determine those things if it was feasible.

This has been leading me to believe that maybe there is a sonogram on file where Maria was given a gender and the due date changed. IF she was READJUSTING her STATEMENT on November 5th, I am wondering if she had a sonogram in October that changed the due date? Just something to ponder.

Also, praying nobody here is in the Atlanta area. I believe Ocean/Gentle is not in the state of GA IIRC. :patriot:

jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Cryme, I was thinking the umbilical cord might reveal the gender and age too. However, I am surprised that the state ME wouldn't have done a more thorough exam to determine those things if it was feasible.

This has been leading me to believe that maybe there is a sonogram on file where Maria was given a gender and the due date changed. IF she was READJUSTING her STATEMENT on November 5th, I am wondering if she had a sonogram in October that changed the due date? Just something to ponder.

Also, praying nobody here is in the Atlanta area. I believe Ocean/Gentle is not in the state of GA IIRC. :patriot:

jmo [/*]

The state ME wouldn't necessarily try and determine fetal age as it has no bearing on the state's murder case. Fetal age would only be important to the military's rape case. IMO only (and because NC doesn't have a fetal homicide law).

But, is there a separate autopsy report on the baby? Because I don't believe the ME even mentioned anything regarding the size of the baby or gave any ballpark as to how far along Maria was. I'd have to go back and read it again, but am just not up to it this morning.

I'm totally with you on the sonogram. I'm sure that won't be released until trial though.

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Sami
CANDY, in speaking about her fondness for Sheriff Ed yesterday, GB made the statement that she was a 'South Georgia girl'. IMO

Has anyone reached a conclusion about the sheet that Maria was wrapped in -- did it come from LE or was it part of a sheet/comforter combo from Cesar's house? [/*]

Watching LE remove the remains from the firepit, it looks like there is a clean white sheet covering the remains and that could be what the ME is referring to in the Autopsy Report. He indicates that there is charring on the comforter, but no mention of charring of the sheet. JMO

@ 55 seconds into the video, you can see LE remove the remains that are draped or wrapped in a clean white sheet.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E9zBoX90KgU

From the Autopsy Report:

The decedent is received face down in a body bag. She has been wrapped in a sheet. The sheet is removed to reveal fragments of charred clothing on top of a charred and decomposed body. The clothing consist of a sports bra, medium size, and a green knit shirt. This clothing is sealed in nylon bags for accelerant analysis.

The body is also wrapped in a partially charred comforter.

http://www.jdnews.com/attachments/jxqt6p-lauterbachautopsy1.pdf

[henry]

Originally posted by old_lady


I'm sure he did. It is public record. Exactly when it is released depends on how fast it is completed. He just didn't tell us. He will not tell us much of anything. It's to bad the DA didn't try to get it sealed. I wonder if he even tried?

jmoo [/*]

it's true he "may not tell us much of anything", but IMO i'd rather have answers unfiltered, unmashed and perhaps interpreted incorrectly by some of the media. with the questions - it's direct.

edit: also with the charred/uncharred wording . . . just wondering if cesar perhaps unearthed the grave at a later time to see what had happened, and perhaps put some other things in there . . . remember, he had several weeks . . . jmo & speculating.

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by old_lady


Not a separate report, but a supplementary report regarding the results of the DNA. Maybe it isn't back yet. Or maybe it is sealed.

jmoo [/*]

It could possibly be sealed, imo, since this was said by Sheriff Brown about the Search Warrant issued on the search of the Laurean home.

A warrant issued for the search of the home was sealed by an Onslow County Superior Court judge. Brown said that action came in response to media's use of information from a search warrant issued earlier in the case.

http://www.enctoday.com/news/brown_54314_jdn__article.html/lauterbach_blood.html

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


The state ME wouldn't necessarily try and determine fetal age as it has no bearing on the state's murder case. Fetal age would only be important to the military's rape case. IMO only (and because NC doesn't have a fetal homicide law).

But, is there a separate autopsy report on the baby? Because I don't believe the ME even mentioned anything regarding the size of the baby or gave any ballpark as to how far along Maria was. I'd have to go back and read it again, but am just not up to it this morning.

I'm totally with you on the sonogram. I'm sure that won't be released until trial though. [/*]

Hopefully Nuttintodo will get the information from the courthouse on finding any filings soon. I know she will be avidly checking there too.

I would think they will reveal the name of a motion and if seal is applied for. JMO.

I had Ocean mixed up with my Fishgirl and was thinking TN for some reason. I hope she checks in soon and is safe. Still 13,000 without power.

JMO.

[GentleBreeze]

Good Morning Everyone!

Thank you to everyone that was concerned about me and the very bad weather. This time it is in the northern part of the state but no matter where it is my heart seems to be rooted there due to the fact that I have precious family members all over the state.

Our daughter,hubby and our two grandsons live about 20 miles from downtown Atlanta. She told us it is awful up there and they are bracing themselves for another onslaught of bad weather today as another front is expected to hit.

I hope that Nuttin hears back from Captain Sutherland soon.

imoo

[bkwits]

BEWARE THE IDES OF MARCH


March 15th is supposed to be an unlucky day. Let's hope it is unlucky for Cesar Laurean.

March 15th was the dayJulius Caesar was assassinated.

:flamemad:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by old_lady


:D Men need a lot of help when doing things around the house. A whole bathroom in one day! I will look up carbonized in the dictionary.


jmoo [/*]

Man, I knew I have a unique husband. lol He is a workhorse and does a superb job all by himself and I have never seen a man that works harder.

I missed him the other day and I thought he was outside playing with our doggie but he was busy as a bee cleaning the weeds out one of our flowerbeds and this is after he had worked all day. Today he is welding me a outside table so I can set my plants on them to rework them and transplant them.

imoo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by AnnieBean


Hope that has nothing to do with bad luck in sink installation or I will be having a miserable day too. [/*]


Well Annie, the way I look at it, your name isn't Caesar or a different spelling of Caesar (Cesar) so good luck to you.

Only 2 days to St. Paddy's Day. :D

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Sami


Glad you're okay, GB!:seeya:

Our weather this morning showed a rectangle of possible dangerous weather that encompassed Atlanta and Columbia, SC. :( [/*]

TY Sami.

And (sigh) we have another daughter that lives in Charleston SC and my brother in law lives close to Columbia.:(

I hope it all just blows over and isn't as bad as they are thinking it is going to be.

imoo

[bkwits]

IF Cesar is captured and tried for Maria's murder, what kind of defense do you all think he will present?

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by AnnieBean


What a good question.

Crime of Passion?

I didn't do it, Christina did?

Diminished Capacity?http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Diminished_capacity
(link to def of diminished capacity)


:seeya:
AB [/*]

I don't think there will be a defense. I think there will be a confession when he's captured.

[strick10]

Originally posted by Sami
I included that part about the neck bone in my post above since it reminded me that crafty defense attorneys will be looking for any excuse to show doubt in how the crime scene was handled.

I hadn't even thought of the possibility that it might come up in court that the tools used by LE to uncover the bodies, might be blamed for causing some of the damage to the bodies.

I understand why LE had to stop their excavation and continue when they had daylight. Probably very smart move, imo. [/*]

I've thought about the excuses the defense may use regarding the cause of death. Probably going to say that the LE damaged the head when they were initially digging or that CAL or someone else probably caused the damage while building/working the fire pit. I truely expect this to come up in the trial.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


I don't think there will be a defense. I think there will be a confession when he's captured. [/*]

That is a good possibility.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by strick10


I've thought about the excuses the defense may use regarding the cause of death. Probably going to say that the LE damaged the head when they were initially digging or that CAL or someone else probably caused the damage while building/working the fire pit. I truely expect this to come up in the trial. [/*]


Yep, sounds right.

[strick10]

:seeya: Mornina all. Great posts yesterday. Glad you're okay GW.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by AnnieBean


What a good question.

Crime of Passion?

I didn't do it, Christina did?

Diminished Capacity?http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Diminished_capacity
(link to def of diminished capacity)


:seeya:
AB [/*]

If he is captured in Mexico, he can't get the DP, so I don't know if Crime of Passion would help him. Might get him 2nd degree murder, I don't know.

He says Ctina did it, Ctina says he did it. Might work if the time line etc works.

Diminished capacity -- don't know if that is applicable in NC. I don't think it would work anyway.

All IMO

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Sami


Also, Dr. Baden said that extreme heat/fire can cause a skull to 'crack', and then it is very hard to distinguish between heat-caused damage or blunt object-caused damage. paraphrased by me and jmo on what I heard.

I think there will be a defense. I think he'll continue to say that Maria killed herself. If so, that wound to the neck will be important and I hate that the ME used the obscure term 'may have' happened after death, in speaking about when that wound occurred. [/*]

Yeah, I wish ME would have been more definite.

Maybe CL's defense will hire Dr. Baden. :eek:

[scillak]

Originally posted by old_lady


Maybe he will just plead guilty. Even with a confession doesn't he still need to plead?

jmoo [/*]

I'll probaby have to eat crow, but I think that Christina found them together and she committed the murder. He fled and is trying to take the rap. But, I think that if they get him, there's going to be one huge he said/she said when he says that she did it.

[strick10]

Originally posted by AnnieBean

snipped

"Tool marks" on bones that occured while disinterring her body, maybe, but we don't know if there were any and those tool marks would be revealed for that they are- nothing to do w/ the murder itself and would look pretty petty in the face of the murder itself- IMO- for defense to bring that up. Hopefully his attys aren't as slick and disgusting as PS's attys were, using the absurd and ridiculous as defense. It made me sick. Hopefully this case will stick to the FACTS AT HAND and not bring all kinds of BS into it, like english being second language of the limo driver was an issue brought up by the defense in PS case. That kind of carp.
JMO

:seeya:
AB [/*]

I'm totally w/ you AB. But we know to what degree some defense lawyers will go to save their client or to diminish the severity of the crime.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by old_lady



I have never seen a defense attorney that isn't absurd.

jmoo [/*]

My son thought about becoming a defense attorney. I agree that everyone deserves a defense, but I couldn't help but discourage that. He is a very straight arrow person and I think would have been miserable in that job. JMO

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by AnnieBean
Yes. So we will have to wait. :rolleyes:

(Just heard the first "f" word coming out of the bathroom, guess all is not going smoothly.) [/*]

:lol:

AB, good luck with that bathroom.

GB, glad you are safe; hope everything goes well for all your family.

Yes, great discussion last night. Of everything gleaned from the autopsy, the "baby item" is the most mysterious to me.

As far as the comforter, I disagree with most of y'all that it is really significant.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by old_lady



I don't believe Christina was involved. I believe physical evidence will show who killed her.

jmoo [/*]

Well as always you know I agree with that.

So what's YOUR take on the comforter? Seems everyone last night thought that was just icing on the cake about Christina's knowledge/complicity. I disagreed.

[Maka]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006
I wonder if he even knew the autopsy would be made public? And maybe he did. Hoping that it would infuriate or upset someone so much that if they were helping or hiding Cesar that they would stop. [/*]

I put in my request in February and then Cap'n Rick posted this.

March 1, 2008


"The lab results from the SBI and from the Pathologists will be returned to the homicide investigators and to the District Attorneys Office. Most of this information will not be made public before trial."


http://www.jdnews.com/news/lauterbach_55226___article.html/laurean_family.html

I figured since I didn't get anything in the mail for so long that they were going to withhold the reports until trial under NCG Statute 132-1.4. and then he didn't want to disclose anything about baby clothes, what Maria was wearing and all that. Guess they finally agreed the autopsy report wouldn't be a detriment to their case. :shrug:

[hinman]

Mornign all.

GB so glad to hear everything is OK. I automatically thought of you last night when I heard about the tornado.

Hope all is safe and hope CL is caught today.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by old_lady



I don't believe Christina was involved. I believe physical evidence will show who killed her.

jmoo [/*]


Well, so far as we know, Cesar has done everything from contact with Maria, driving Maria's car (according to witness), borrowing the shovel, digging the pit, buying the supplies, trying to use the ATM card. etc. Cesar running away. Other than telling the neighbor about painting, we don't really have Ctina involved in anything.

I think Cesar will go down for this, if he is ever caught. IMO

[hinman]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Well as always you know I agree with that.

So what's YOUR take on the comforter? Seems everyone last night thought that was just icing on the cake about Christina's knowledge/complicity. I disagreed. [/*]Hello SS. I know you aren't asking me but I didn't think Christina was involved either.

When I heard the comforter thing I was a little shaken. I am wondering how old the comforter was if it was stored in the garage or not?

[hinman]

Originally posted by Sami


For hinman: :rolleyes: [/*]Did I tell you how much I missed you.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Sami


Also, Dr. Baden said that extreme heat/fire can cause a skull to 'crack', and then it is very hard to distinguish between heat-caused damage or blunt object-caused damage. paraphrased by me and jmo on what I heard.

I think there will be a defense. I think he'll continue to say that Maria killed herself. If so, that wound to the neck will be important and I hate that the ME used the obscure term 'may have' happened after death, in speaking about when that wound occurred. [/*]

I don't think he is going to confess to anything. I do agree with you the defense experts will make hay out of the "may have" concerning the neck wound.

His attorney knows full well how Onslow County citizens are thinking about this case. The polls have clearly stated they think CSL was involved. He would be remiss not to bring that to the attention of the jury.

If we have discussed it over and over for over 2 months and so many here believe that she possibly may have been the killer too and we can bet he is not going to let that slide in the trial either. And so much of the entire murder and cover up does call into question who really murdered her whether it was CSL, CAL or both. All he has to do is keep reiterating to the jury "do you really believe this woman knew nothing about this or had no motive of her own to do this?" (etc)

I don't think this case will be a slam dunk case at all but one hard fought with some very nagging questions brought forth.

imoo

[hinman]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think he is going to confess to anything. I do agree with you the defense experts will make hay out of the "may have" concerning the neck wound.

SNIPPED

I don't think this case will be a slam dunk case at all but one hard fought with some very nagging questions brought forth.

imoo [/*]I agree GB. This is not as open and shut as one would hope. I think his lawyers are going to put up a fight. I mean we do onthis very board.

Of course that is if he has a good attorney and i fhe does there will be some fire works in the court room. IMO

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


:lol:

snip

Yes, great discussion last night. Of everything gleaned from the autopsy, the "baby item" is the most mysterious to me.

[/*]

Same for me. I keep thinking over and over about the baby item.
I wonder what kind of plastic bag, if they mean it was in the plastic bag from the store? Like it had maybe just been bought recently?

I don't think it meant she was in labor and on the way to the hospital or anything like that, though. For some reason I believe it was significant in some other way but as of yet I have no thoughts on what that might be.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think he is going to confess to anything. I do agree with you the defense experts will make hay out of the "may have" concerning the neck wound.

His attorney knows full well how Onslow County citizens are thinking about this case. The polls have clearly stated they think CSL was involved. He would be remiss not to bring that to the attention of the jury.

If we have discussed it over and over for over 2 months and so many here believe that she possibly may have been the killer too and we can bet he is not going to let that slide in the trial either. And so much of the entire murder and cover up does call into question who really murdered her whether it was CSL, CAL or both. All he has to do is keep reiterating to the jury "do you really believe this woman knew nothing about this or had no motive of her own to do this?" (etc)

I don't think this case will be a slam dunk case at all but one hard fought with some very nagging questions brought forth.

imoo [/*]

ITA. If he was going to confess to anything, it would have been in the notes. He was "running", what difference did it make?

[hinman]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


Same for me. I keep thinking over and over about the baby item.
I wonder what kind of plastic bag, if they mean it was in the plastic bag from the store? Like it had maybe just been bought recently?

I don't think it meant she was in labor and on the way to the hospital or anything like that, though. For some reason I believe it was significant in some other way but as of yet I have no thoughts on what that might be. [/*] Some thoughts that run through my mind,

Did he buy the outfit to get her over there?

Did she have the outfit in her car from when she had bought it and hadn't taken it out or did a friend get her the outfit and she just hadn't took it out of her car.

But if it was in her car then why did he not take out the MPO also.

[strick10]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


ITA. If he was going to confess to anything, it would have been in the notes. He was "running", what difference did it make? [/*]

If CSL was mentioned in the notes as having taken part then CSL would never have turned in the notes.

[scillak]

So if we move this from Law and Order SVU to Law and Order the trial...

Can't force spouses to testify against each other.
If they try one and defense raises reasonable doubt that the other one did it....and jury aquits....
Then they try the other one. Same scenario.
Off scott free.
I don't think this will happen, really. And they probably have enough physical evidence and know which one did it. They did charge Cesar with murder, after all (and yet I still think Christina did it, which I guess makes no sense). Law is fascinating, but I can't imagine being a DA or defense attorney.

(I just followed Jensen trial, so my head is in trial mode..)

[strick10]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


Same for me. I keep thinking over and over about the baby item.
I wonder what kind of plastic bag, if they mean it was in the plastic bag from the store? Like it had maybe just been bought recently?

I don't think it meant she was in labor and on the way to the hospital or anything like that, though. For some reason I believe it was significant in some other way but as of yet I have no thoughts on what that might be. [/*]

To me the plastic bag holds nothing. What does is the fact that whomever put/threw in the baby item(s) into the pit spoke loud and clear with that action alone.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by strick10


To me the plastic bag holds nothing. What does is the fact that whomever put/threw in the baby item(s) into the pit spoke loud and clear with that action alone. [/*]

Oh yes, a final "Take That!".

[strick10]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Oh yes, a final "Take That!". [/*]

yuppers

[GentleBreeze]

By looking at the diagram last night where it showed exactly where Maria was stuck....I feel she was blindsided and did not see it coming. If so she would have turned her head as a built in reflects and the damage would have been more toward the back of the skull some. I think the other fractures at the base were from the skull itself having such force applied when the blow was struck. It caused the skull to fracture due to it not being completely intact any longer. When the skull was struck it caused the entire skull to compress leaving fractures at the base.

It is a direct hit right into her temple area. No way do I believe Maria would not have turned her head to the right or left to deflect the blow if she had seen it coming.

JMO tho.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by strick10


If CSL was mentioned in the notes as having taken part then CSL would never have turned in the notes. [/*]

That's what I'm saying. If Cesar was the actual killer, why not confess to it in the notes? He was going on the run, why bother with this suicide/burial scam?

It's not like he lessened suspicion of Christina in those notes. More like increased it.

:shrug:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze
By looking at the diagram last night where it showed exactly where Maria was stuck....I feel she was blindsided and did not see it coming. If so she would have turned her head as a built in reflect and the damage would have been more toward the back of the skull some. I think the other fractures at the base were from the skull itself having such force applied when the blow was struck. It caused the skull to fracture due to it not being completely intact any longer. When the skull was struck it caused the entire skull to compress leaving fractures at the base.

It is a direct hit right into her temple area. No way do I believe Maria would not have turned her head to the right or left to deflect the blow if she had seen it coming.

JMO tho. [/*]

That's why I believe she was either in or on the bed, her back towards the door, and Christina found her (or them).

ETA JMO

[strick10]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze
By looking at the diagram last night where it showed exactly where Maria was stuck....I feel she was blindsided and did not see it coming. If so she would have turned her head as a built in reflects and the damage would have been more toward the back of the skull some. I think the other fractures at the base were from the skull itself having such force applied when the blow was struck. It caused the skull to fracture due to it not being completely intact any longer. When the skull was struck it caused the entire skull to compress leaving fractures at the base.

It is a direct hit right into her temple area. No way do I believe Maria would not have turned her head to the right or left to deflect the blow if she had seen it coming.

JMO tho. [/*]

Makes logical sense GW. Where would you say the person swinging the object would be standing? Directly behind Maria, behind Maria off to the left? Not testing you just trying to get a clearer mental picture.

[scillak]

Originally posted by strick10


To me the plastic bag holds nothing. What does is the fact that whomever put/threw in the baby item(s) into the pit spoke loud and clear with that action alone. [/*]

I thought this was weird - from the jdnews article - "The baby clothing was found in a melted plastic bag and labeled "size 0-3 months."

The label - doesn't that sound like someone passed on baby clothes that they had stored and labeled? Not that it means anything, other than someone out there gave Maria the clothing. I can't get it to fit that it could be old clothing that belonged to Laurean's daughter........

[strick10]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


That's what I'm saying. If Cesar was the actual killer, why not confess to it in the notes? He was going on the run, why bother with this suicide/burial scam?

It's not like he lessened suspicion of Christina in those notes. More like increased it.

:shrug: [/*]

Gottcha. Misunderstood your previous post.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


ITA. If he was going to confess to anything, it would have been in the notes. He was "running", what difference did it make? [/*]

Frankly I have never understood his notes. They really only seem to be written to take CSL out of the equation.

To this day I question..........why leave notes when you have already supposedly told your wife everything in graphic detail? It still makes no sense.

And he knew he would be long gone when those notes were handed in. So yes, I too wonder, why would he care?:confused:

imoo

[hinman]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze
By looking at the diagram last night where it showed exactly where Maria was stuck....I feel she was blindsided and did not see it coming. If so she would have turned her head as a built in reflects and the damage would have been more toward the back of the skull some. I think the other fractures at the base were from the skull itself having such force applied when the blow was struck. It caused the skull to fracture due to it not being completely intact any longer. When the skull was struck it caused the entire skull to compress leaving fractures at the base.

It is a direct hit right into her temple area. No way do I believe Maria would not have turned her head to the right or left to deflect the blow if she had seen it coming.

JMO tho. [/*]Could the fractures at the base be from her head hitting the say garage floor?

Or is that to far out there and not possible?

[bkwits]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


That's what I'm saying. If Cesar was the actual killer, why not confess to it in the notes? He was going on the run, why bother with this suicide/burial scam?

It's not like he lessened suspicion of Christina in those notes. More like increased it.

:shrug: [/*]

LE said (I can't remember if it was Brown or RS) about the note, that the killer usually tries to make it look better for him/her. There are several reasons why Cesar wouldn't confess. The main one is if he was caught, he would have almost no defense. IMO

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Sami


But that still wouldn't explain blood spatter, which comes from castoff blood on the weapon being wielded. IMO [/*]

We don't exactly have final determination that all of the blood found belonged to Maria.


:shrug:

Just sayin....

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Sami


I think this makes a lot of sense, except for the blood spatter evidence.

As I understand it, the spatter comes from the weapon retaining blood from an initial hit, and when taken back up (to be brought down again), castoff blood spatters onto walls and ceiling.

If that's the case, she had to receive more than one hit. IMO [/*]

I agree with Gentle's explanation above about the blows to Maria's head. According to Sheriff Brown, the major amount of blood and the blood on the ceiling was where ... IN the house itself or in the garage? (Still trying to figure out why the photo of the living room was included in the crime scene photos released and not one of the bedroom)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You said where in the house the blood was?

BROWN: I think two locations. The garage location was a major -- I think there was a couple of other locations which indicated, if I`m correct, Mister -- Captain Sutherland, that would indicate it could have been not just isolated in one spot.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/11/ng.01.html

Brown said Friday that blood spatter evidence was found inside Laurean's home, even on a ceiling. There was evidence of "an attempted clean-up," including an attempt to paint over the blood spatter, he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/12/missing.marine/index.html

[scillak]

Originally posted by bkwits


LE said (I can't remember if it was Brown or RS) about the note, that the killer usually tries to make it look better for him/her. There are several reasons why Cesar wouldn't confess. The main one is if he was caught, he would have almost no defense. IMO [/*]

Yes. Neither has anything to lose by trying the suicide story. They probably thought - might as well give that a try. They had to have thought that out ahead of time, though, to make the neck cut as cover-up. I wonder if that was done before any burning. I assumed that it was.

[strick10]

Originally posted by scillak


I thought this was weird - from the jdnews article - "The baby clothing was found in a melted plastic bag and labeled "size 0-3 months."

The label - doesn't that sound like someone passed on baby clothes that they had stored and labeled? Not that it means anything, other than someone out there gave Maria the clothing. I can't get it to fit that it could be old clothing that belonged to Laurean's daughter........ [/*]


I can't get it to fit that it was used clothing either. Because of the melted bag I'm led to believe that it was mostly likely brand new.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Sami


I think this makes a lot of sense, except for the blood spatter evidence.

As I understand it, the spatter comes from the weapon retaining blood from an initial hit, and when taken back up (to be brought down again), castoff blood spatters onto walls and ceiling.

If that's the case, she had to receive more than one hit. IMO [/*]

I found the diagram a little odd. If the fractures were from multiple hits usually the ME will draw the jagged fracturing pattern not just encompasses it where it looks like just one wound pattern.

It showed no jagged areas more like it was a caved in or compressed fractures. Also they usually state repeated blows but in this one they say she died from blunt force trauma which could be one blow or I guess more. But usually they say Multiple Blunt Force Trauma.:shrug:

imoo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Frankly I have never understood his notes. They really only seem to be written to take CSL out of the equation.

To this day I question..........why leave notes when you have already supposedly told your wife everything in graphic detail? It still makes no sense.

And he knew he would be long gone when those notes were handed in. So yes, I too wonder, why would he care?:confused:

imoo [/*]

I do think he left the notes to not only protect Ctina, but to put his story out there that he is "innocent" of the murders.

Another thing, Ctina may have threatened to call LE right away, but he put her off by promising to confess in the notes. IMO

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by bkwits


LE said (I can't remember if it was Brown or RS) about the note, that the killer usually tries to make it look better for him/her. There are several reasons why Cesar wouldn't confess. The main one is if he was caught, he would have almost no defense. IMO [/*]

Sure, they're going to try and minimize their involvement. But this guy apparently had no fear of getting caught. How do you justify staying in a motel, writing letters, making no attempt to disguise the truck, taking a bus (which makes numerous stops where he could have been spotted) when a plane (especially with a false id) would have been way faster......

But Christina's statements to her parents also tend to minimize her involvement, while at the same time, projecting "hero" status by claiming she begged him to turn himself in.

[bkwits]

I have a question from last night's discussion.

How do we know that Maria did not have an infant car seat in her car?

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Sami


Do you mean you think some of the blood spatter that Sheriff Ed spoke about might have been caused from Maria striking her assailant(s) with the weapon? [/*]

Uh....no.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by bkwits
I have a question from last night's discussion.

How do we know that Maria did not have an infant car seat in her car? [/*]

We don't know. There has never been a list of the items recovered from the car made public. With the exception of the MPO.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by hinman
Could the fractures at the base be from her head hitting the say garage floor?

Or is that to far out there and not possible? [/*]

I sure think it is possible. She had to fall full weight onto the concrete floor and her skull cavity had been damaged and would not support the fall nearly as well as if it would if it had been solid and intact.

But imo when the skull is compromised that force has to go somewhere. I think when the overall skull compressed most likely that is how the fractures at the base occurred. But that is just MOO

imoo:seeya:

[bkwits]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Sure, they're going to try and minimize their involvement. But this guy apparently had no fear of getting caught. How do you justify staying in a motel, writing letters, making no attempt to disguise the truck, taking a bus (which makes numerous stops where he could have been spotted) when a plane (especially with a false id) would have been way faster......

But Christina's statements to her parents also tend to minimize her involvement, while at the same time, projecting "hero" status by claiming she begged him to turn himself in. [/*]


What can I say, he is an arrogant young man. He probably feels he was justified in what he did. He has no shame.

I have said before that I am on the fence about Ctina, however, I think Cesar did the murder alone. IMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Sami


Also, Dr. Baden said that extreme heat/fire can cause a skull to 'crack', and then it is very hard to distinguish between heat-caused damage or blunt object-caused damage. paraphrased by me and jmo on what I heard.

I think there will be a defense. I think he'll continue to say that Maria killed herself. If so, that wound to the neck will be important and I hate that the ME used the obscure term 'may have' happened after death, in speaking about when that wound occurred. [/*]

If the ME can't say with CERTAINTY, they are duty bound IMO. I think there is going to be much open to interpretation and other possibilities will be introduced. JMO tho.

I am still curious about the contact beforehand and if all cameras around the building were reviewed for the December 14th date myself.

My guess is that it may have been too late to get any footage by the time they were looking, but I will always be curious about whether or not Maria ever went on base prior to going to Cesar's that day?:shrug:

jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think he is going to confess to anything. I do agree with you the defense experts will make hay out of the "may have" concerning the neck wound.

His attorney knows full well how Onslow County citizens are thinking about this case. The polls have clearly stated they think CSL was involved. He would be remiss not to bring that to the attention of the jury.

If we have discussed it over and over for over 2 months and so many here believe that she possibly may have been the killer too and we can bet he is not going to let that slide in the trial either. And so much of the entire murder and cover up does call into question who really murdered her whether it was CSL, CAL or both. All he has to do is keep reiterating to the jury "do you really believe this woman knew nothing about this or had no motive of her own to do this?" (etc)

I don't think this case will be a slam dunk case at all but one hard fought with some very nagging questions brought forth.

imoo [/*]

I don't think he will be confessing as I think it may be he didn't commit the actual murder. Once he is back on NC soil, I will be shocked if this doesn't turn into a battle royale for the title of murderer.

Any attorney worth their salt should be able to pick this apart and show more than reasonable doubt, so I think things will really heat up when his attorney gets the statements made by Christina through open file discovery. I don't know how long they have to produce all the chat findings they have with Christina, but I'm sure the attorney has been keeping track of the minimum the public is aware of.

I think this will be a very interesting trial to say the least. JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Sami


But that still wouldn't explain blood spatter, which comes from castoff blood on the weapon being wielded. IMO [/*]

Even if he struck her once the head bleeds profusely and very quickly. When he came back up with the object, which I am no longer thinking it was a crowbar, then the blood would fly off the weapon up to the ceiling.

The ME autopsy report and diagrams are very lacking imo. To just look at the diagram it looks like one blow to the side of the head made with an instrument wider than a crowbar...maybe an e-tool.... small shovel to me.

The other blood spatter and we really don't know if this was cast off, spatter etc. or how it was put there until a forensic expert testifies. It may have been spatter on the wall by Maria falling close by the wall area and the force of the fall made some of the blood be airborne and landed on the walls.

I think the blood inside the home was most likely transfer blood.

imoo

[scillak]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Sure, they're going to try and minimize their involvement. But this guy apparently had no fear of getting caught. How do you justify staying in a motel, writing letters, making no attempt to disguise the truck, taking a bus (which makes numerous stops where he could have been spotted) when a plane (especially with a false id) would have been way faster......

But Christina's statements to her parents also tend to minimize her involvement, while at the same time, projecting "hero" status by claiming she begged him to turn himself in. [/*][/QUOTE

Well, maybe because he didn't do it. He's running to give her cover, taking the rap. But, if caught, he can say he's innocent and tell how it went down. I keep making it be CSL who did it, but then that arrest warrant accuses Cesar... I just keep coming back to:
Christina 21 years old dating Cesar 18 years old. I'm not saying age difference is large, just that at that age, three years actually is a big difference. She gets pregnant after just four months. He marries her. I'm not saying shot-gun wedding for sure, but I wonder if he wasn't railroaded somewhat. So he goes from high school to married with kid in a period of about two years. Then he strays and she's furious. I thought she did it before, but now that there are no clothing bottoms found....I think she caught them literally with pants down....

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Even if he struck her once the head bleeds profusely and very quickly. When he came back up with the object, which I am no longer thinking it was a crowbar, then the blood would fly off the weapon up to the ceiling.

The ME autopsy report and diagrams are very lacking imo. To just look at the diagram it looks like one blow to the side of the head made with an instrument wider than a crowbar...maybe an e-tool.... small shovel to me.

The other blood spatter and we really don't know if this was cast off, spatter etc. or how it was put there until a forensic expert testifies. It may have been spatter on the wall by Maria falling close by the wall area and the force of the fall made some of the blood be airborne and landed on the walls.

I think the blood inside the home was most likely transfer blood.

imoo [/*]

Did anyone ever find a link to the alleged crow bar marks on the head? I don't ever remember hearing that. JMO:confused:

[hinman]

Originally posted by Sami
Okay, I'm confused.

Are some of ya'll saying that you think there was only one blow to the skull?

Since we know there was castoff blood (according to Sheriff Ed), are ya'll thinking that Maria was hit somewhere else on her body, too, since castoff blood means more than one hit. IMO [/*]I would say there was more then one blow. This seems to be overkill with the slicing of her throat and the charring of her body.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Sami
Okay, I'm confused.

Are some of ya'll saying that you think there was only one blow to the skull?

Since we know there was castoff blood (according to Sheriff Ed), are ya'll thinking that Maria was hit somewhere else on her body, too, since castoff blood means more than one hit. IMO [/*]

She could have been, although they might not have been fatal blows. We also don't know what type, if any, defensive wounds she may have had prior to decomposition. I don't recall the autopsy saying anything about broken bones (i.e. arms/wrists) but as I said, I can't get the fortitude to look at it again this morning. Maybe later.

After lunch.

And some scotch.

But, as I said, we don't know that all of the blood (spatter or pooled) belonged to Maria.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by strick10


I've thought about the excuses the defense may use regarding the cause of death. Probably going to say that the LE damaged the head when they were initially digging or that CAL or someone else probably caused the damage while building/working the fire pit. I truely expect this to come up in the trial. [/*]

They'll have a difficult time trying to prove that because her body was found "face down" so how could a shovel have pierced the front of her neck?

Also, according to the autopsy the wound in her neck was a superficial one, not very deep iirc.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Sami
Okay, I'm confused.

Are some of ya'll saying that you think there was only one blow to the skull?

Since we know there was castoff blood (according to Sheriff Ed), are ya'll thinking that Maria was hit somewhere else on her body, too, since castoff blood means more than one hit. IMO [/*]


I'm confused. Did SB say she was struck several times after the fatal blow?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


That's why I believe she was either in or on the bed, her back towards the door, and Christina found her (or them).

ETA JMO [/*]

It sure looks like she never saw it coming. Like she was looking straight ahead maybe or at someone else and didn't have time to even turn to deflect it..

I see blind uncontrollable rage that erupted into molten hot lava.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


They'll have a difficult time trying to prove that because her body was found "face down" so how could a shovel have pierced the front of her neck?

Also, according to the autopsy the wound in her neck was a superficial one, not very deep iirc. [/*]

Wasn't the cut on the left side though? The same side she received most of the charring?

imoo

[strick10]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


They'll have a difficult time trying to prove that because her body was found "face down" so how could a shovel have pierced the front of her neck?

Also, according to the autopsy the wound in her neck was a superficial one, not very deep iirc. [/*]

I was talking about the head wound(s). There's no arguing that the neck would've not happened while she was in the pit as I agree w/ you. The neck would have been somewhat protected to have been pierced at that time.

[scillak]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


It sure looks like she never saw it coming. Like she was looking straight ahead maybe or at someone else and didn't have time to even turn to deflect it..

I see blind uncontrollable rage that erupted into molten hot lava.

imoo [/*]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I hope I don't get on anybody's nerves by going down the CSL road repeatedly. I realize there's a very big chance that I'm one hundred percent wrong.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Did anyone ever find a link to the alleged crow bar marks on the head? I don't ever remember hearing that. JMO:confused: [/*]

I don't remember hearing anything about LE stating anything about the markings on her skull one way or the other.:shrug:

It was discussed here if one was used the markings would be apparent on the skull and scalp.

imoo

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by bkwits



I'm confused. Did SB say she was struck several times after the fatal blow? [/*]

Only this, but I'll keep looking.

"I believe this is going to be a bizarre discovery today," Brown said. "The blood splatters indicate a violent, violent attack."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-01-11-pregnant-marine_N.htm

Earlier authorities said they found evidence inside the house that suggested Lance Cpl. Lauterbach had been killed. Brown says it shows there was a violent, powerful impact blow inside that house.

http://www.witntv.com/home/headlines/13703757.html

[Maka]

Originally posted by Sami


Also, Dr. Baden said that extreme heat/fire can cause a skull to 'crack', and then it is very hard to distinguish between heat-caused damage or blunt object-caused damage. paraphrased by me and jmo on what I heard.

I think there will be a defense. I think he'll continue to say that Maria killed herself. If so, that wound to the neck will be important and I hate that the ME used the obscure term 'may have' happened after death, in speaking about when that wound occurred. [/*]

I think the ME used "may have occurred after death" because there's always a chance CL cut her neck before she died rather than after...even if the wound wasn't the cause of her death.

I don't think Maria made that wound. It's more comparable to someone positioned from behind and cutting in an upward fashion toward the midline....possibly by holding the person's arm from behind to make the wound or just on their own. People tend to reach across their own neck, cut downward from the area below the corner of the jaw to the midline of the throat when they cut at an angle because of body mechanics.

But I dunno for sure!!


MOO

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by scillak
[QUOTE]Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Sure, they're going to try and minimize their involvement. But this guy apparently had no fear of getting caught. How do you justify staying in a motel, writing letters, making no attempt to disguise the truck, taking a bus (which makes numerous stops where he could have been spotted) when a plane (especially with a false id) would have been way faster......

But Christina's statements to her parents also tend to minimize her involvement, while at the same time, projecting "hero" status by claiming she begged him to turn himself in. [/*][/QUOTE

Well, maybe because he didn't do it. He's running to give her cover, taking the rap. But, if caught, he can say he's innocent and tell how it went down. I keep making it be CSL who did it, but then that arrest warrant accuses Cesar... I just keep coming back to:
Christina 21 years old dating Cesar 18 years old. I'm not saying age difference is large, just that at that age, three years actually is a big difference. She gets pregnant after just four months. He marries her. I'm not saying shot-gun wedding for sure, but I wonder if he wasn't railroaded somewhat. So he goes from high school to married with kid in a period of about two years. Then he strays and she's furious. I thought she did it before, but now that there are no clothing bottoms found....I think she caught them literally with pants down.... [/*]

I don't think he's running to give her cover, but I think you and I could become BFF's. LOL

He was charged so fast because he ran. No way did they have any forensics back in that short of time to have definitively said HE was the murderer. IF Christina is going to be charged with anything, she's not going to be charged until they either have him in custody, or determine that he's no longer among the living.

It serves no purpose to arrest her right now and charge her with anything. It would only drive him further underground (so to speak) and would cause his attorney to immediately file for dismissal of charges against him.

And I agree with you about everything else. We've discussed the age difference, the unplanned pregnancy of Christina, the rush to marriage....

And yes, I want to know what happened to her pants, her underwear and a more definitive answer as to the clothing found "on her body". I mean, "on her" as in wearing it, or "on her" as to just lying on top of the body?

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Wasn't the cut on the left side though? The same side she received most of the charring?

imoo [/*]

uh huh.:o

[strick10]

Be back later. Lunch w/ daughter and grandson.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


Only this, but I'll keep looking.

"I believe this is going to be a bizarre discovery today," Brown said. "The blood splatters indicate a violent, violent attack."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-01-11-pregnant-marine_N.htm [/*]

Thanks Lynn, I thought I remembered where they said they thought the first blow was fatal.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by scillak


Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I hope I don't get on anybody's nerves by going down the CSL road repeatedly. I realize there's a very big chance that I'm one hundred percent wrong. [/*]

You certainly aren't the only one by any means. That ONE subject has been discussed here I would say as much as any other or perhaps more at times.

When things do not add up it is only normal for the nagging questions to remain. IMO the suspicions will remain about CSL and are not going to go away.

imoo

:seeya:

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Sami


I think it might have been on NG Show, a TH, rather than Sheriff Ed.

Not sure, though.

It was stated that the MC autopsy was to try to fit the skull together to match the markings on the murder weapon, and 'someone' said that could be possible to prove IF she were hit by the 'claw end' of the crowbar. Otherwise, almost impossible.

Paraphrased by me and with poor memory at this late date. JMO since I don't have time to read through NG transcripts of TH's. [/*]

I think you're right, Sami, about a TH on NG:

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, what about the recovery of the reported murder weapon? Sources says it is a crowbar. We haven`t been able to confirm that. Can it be matched up to the wounds?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely. The medical examiner should be able to, Nancy, to match up the wounds -- you know, she died of blunt force trauma to the head. So whatever mark that particular crowbar made into her skull would make some kind of depression. There are also most likely would be some kind of physical evidence on that crowbar, whether it be brain matter, whether it be skull fragments, or possibly some tissue and possibly even blood.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/17/ng.01.html

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


uh huh.:o [/*]

Hmmm......was the cut straight across or more curved and oval...........hmmmm like the end of a shovel?:eek:

imoo

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by strick10


I was talking about the head wound(s). There's no arguing that the neck would've not happened while she was in the pit as I agree w/ you. The neck would have been somewhat protected to have been pierced at that time. [/*]

LOL, I just reread what I posted and I see I completely misread your post. :rolleyes: Sorry.

I think she was struck repeatedly on the head, hence the reports of the blood spatter. A good blood spatter expert, not the ketchup expert mind you, but a genuine expert, will be able to pinpoint where this took place, imo.

Remember, several forensic pathologists were hired to try and put Maria's skull back together, iirc. There was major force behind those blows, imo.

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by hinman
Some thoughts that run through my mind,

Did he buy the outfit to get her over there?

Did she have the outfit in her car from when she had bought it and hadn't taken it out or did a friend get her the outfit and she just hadn't took it out of her car.

But if it was in her car then why did he not take out the MPO also. [/*]
I think it could have been a gift from someone.. and Laurean just wanted to dispose of it just like he did Maria..good riddance to Maria and good riddance to baby too.. just saying it could have been his thinking
Also after skimming over last nights post, if Maria was having contractions wold she willing go to Laureans and have sex? I cannot picture this..
there is just so much we do not know... Maria being at ATM at 4:20. then supposedly at bus station buying ticket at 5 pm .. and then going to Lauren's and having sex with him,..I just don't buy her going there and being caught in bed with him.. The time frame is so tight and the possibility of Christina being home at 7 pm or so..and then her being a cooperating witness... this is all so totally weird..
jmo

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Hmmm......was the cut straight across or more curved and oval...........hmmmm like the end of a shovel?:eek:

imoo [/*]

From the autopsy report:

There is a superficial incised wound to the left side of the neck. The wound is 4" long, and gaping to 2". It is located 7" from the top of the head, and beginning in the midline. There is only minimal damage to the underlying muscle. No critical structures are damaged.

Looking at the diagram on page 6, the wound appears to extend downward from the midline. JMO

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by scillak


Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I hope I don't get on anybody's nerves by going down the CSL road repeatedly. I realize there's a very big chance that I'm one hundred percent wrong. [/*]

I too think many things scream out Christina and busted. It would explain more than a few whacky things about this case and I have never bought into the updating of every few months, certainly not the casual mention of a woman accusing you of rape going missing and no red flags. There would only be no red flags if I as a woman KNEW where she was.

JMO.:o

I'll be anxiously awaiting Cesar's arrival in NC to see just how prepared Christina is for his arrival and his story. AGAIN, JMO.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Howiefan

I think it could have been a gift from someone.. and Laurean just wanted to dispose of it just like he did Maria..
Also after skimming over last nights post, if Maria was having contractions wold she willing go to Laureans and have sex? I cannot picture this..
there is just so much we do not know... Maria being at ATM at 4:20. then supposedly at bus station buying ticket at 5 pm .. and then going to Lauren's and having sex with him,..I just don't buy her going there and being caught in bed with him.. The time frame is so tight and the possibility of Christina being home at 7 pm or so..and then her being a cooperating witness... this is all so totally weird..
jmo [/*]

I don't think she was having contractions.

And yes, the timeline is extremely tight.

All JMO

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Frankly I have never understood his notes. They really only seem to be written to take CSL out of the equation.

To this day I question..........why leave notes when you have already supposedly told your wife everything in graphic detail? It still makes no sense.

And he knew he would be long gone when those notes were handed in. So yes, I too wonder, why would he care?:confused:

imoo [/*]

Maybe he's just a writing kind of guy. But I doubt that.

I think he wrote his 'novellas' to make sure Christina had 'backup' to what she would be telling OCSD/NCIS.

JMO

Mornin' all well it's now almost afternoon but hello anyway! :seeya:

[hinman]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

SNIPPED

It serves no purpose to arrest her right now and charge her with anything. It would only drive him further underground (so to speak) and would cause his attorney to immediately file for dismissal of charges against him.



SNIPPED? [/*]I think total opposite though I have no problem with you thinking this way on this point. I think there is a purpose for her being arrested. Justice to Maria and her unborn baby, Maria's family and the fact that if she did do the murder why let a murderer run lose? No excuse for that.

If it was an anger issue who is to say her child is safe or anyone that might tick her off. She is active in the military. I do not see the purpose of not arresting her if they have any evidence that she was involved in this crime.

but like I said I can understand and respect your position on it.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Howiefan

I think it could have been a gift from someone.. and Laurean just wanted to dispose of it just like he did Maria..good riddance to Maria and good riddance to baby too.. just saying it could have been his thinking
Also after skimming over last nights post, if Maria was having contractions wold she willing go to Laureans and have sex? I cannot picture this..
there is just so much we do not know... Maria being at ATM at 4:20. then supposedly at bus station buying ticket at 5 pm .. and then going to Lauren's and having sex with him,..I just don't buy her going there and being caught in bed with him.. The time frame is so tight and the possibility of Christina being home at 7 pm or so..and then her being a cooperating witness... this is all so totally weird..
jmo [/*]

Right, everything is weird in this case. Who would expect her to go to the home of a man she accused of rape? NOT ME.

I had another thought but it's out there too and that's if she really did go into labor that day and her water broke. That might be why she was undressed from the waist down at a minimum. Just a thought.

:shrug:

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


Maybe he's just a writing kind of guy. But I doubt that.

I think he wrote his 'novellas' to make sure Christina had 'backup' to what she would be telling OCSD/NCIS.

JMO

Mornin' all well it's now almost afternoon but hello anyway! :seeya: [/*]

Mornin' Nuttin.

ITA, they knew what had to be covered for Christina to be free with the child and he did what was necessary and then hit the road with her blessing IMHO. :rolleyes:

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

I don't recall the autopsy saying anything about broken bones (i.e. arms/wrists)... [/*]

From Jas' cut & paste on yesterday's thread...

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=326505&perpage=40&pagenumber=13

The distal portions of all four extremities are charred away, as indicated on the attached diagram.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


I too think many things scream out Christina and busted. It would explain more than a few whacky things about this case and I have never bought into the updating of every few months, certainly not the casual mention of a woman accusing you of rape going missing and no red flags. There would only be no red flags if I as a woman KNEW where she was.

JMO.:o

I'll be anxiously awaiting Cesar's arrival in NC to see just how prepared Christina is for his arrival and his story. AGAIN, JMO. [/*]
Well, all the investigators must be deaf then, cuz cesar is the only one charged with this gruesome murder. :tongue:

[henry]

Originally posted by Sami


I agree. I was totally disappointed in the autopsy report, from the standpoint of wanting to see Cesar easily convicted.

IMO, it left a lot of leeway for the defense. [/*]

in my spare time i was perusing some of the other threads & noticed a comment made about NC - don't remember which counties they were talking about . . . but several posters mentioned how difficult it is to get strong convictions - does anyone know anything about onslow county?

[caejde]

Just wanted to comment about the comforter...I know I'm behind but wanted to add my 2 cents. We have several comforters here-the one on our bed currently, and old one out in the garage that we don't use. The comforter currently on our sons bed and the comforter that is for his bed in the closet. We also have a mink blanket that serves as a comforter in the winter. So, I don't think the particular comforter that was found in the grave was necessarily from their bed. My opinion though.

Also, I had a thought this morning. I read someone last night though maybe Christina caught Maria and Cesar in bed together and Christina flipped and killed Maria. I know this is a big if but just something I thought of. What if that was the case and Christina was intending on killing Cesar but hit Maria by accident. A little far fetched I know so don't slam me but was something I was thinking.

I do think it's odd that her panties and pants weren't mentioned. But I don't know what that means...could be alot.

Also, I remember a neighbor saying the Laureans had painted the bedroom. I'll say just my opinion since I don't have a link. But there is a video I just watched and I am going to watch it again to see if I heard right. But I thought I heard the sheriff say there was a struggle inside the home. I could be wrong and that is why I want to relisten before I post anything defnite.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


ITA. If he was going to confess to anything, it would have been in the notes. He was "running", what difference did it make? [/*]

Oh no, not necessarily I don't think. A person who confesses does not necessarily confess at first......can be way later.

[bkwits]

Even with the gruesome and sad reading from the autopsy, Maria crushed and burned, her baby still hanging on to an umbilical cord though dismembered and burned, a pathetic token baby clothing in a bag.

Even with all of that pathos, some are conjecturing that Maria went to Cesar's house to have sex with him.

Can we at least give her a little dignity until or unles we find out that was the case. IMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by strick10

There's no arguing that the neck would've not happened while she was in the pit as I agree w/ you. The neck would have been somewhat protected to have been pierced at that time. [/*]

Plus the autopsy report specifically states that the neck wound was INCISED (not split).

[hinman]

Originally posted by caejde
SNIPPED:

Also, I remember a neighbor saying the Laureans had painted the bedroom. I'll say just my opinion since I don't have a link. But there is a video I just watched and I am going to watch it again to see if I heard right. But I thought I heard the sheriff say there was a struggle inside the home. I could be wrong and that is why I want to relisten before I post anything defnite. [/*]Good afternoon :seeya:

I have heard a mention of a struglle inside the home and I jsut assumed that ment in the garage area.:shrug: since that was where must of the blood was.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by bkwits
Even with the gruesome and sad reading from the autopsy, Maria crushed and burned, her baby still hanging on to an umbilical cord though dismembered and burned, a pathetic token baby clothing in a bag.

Even with all of that pathos, some are conjecturing that Maria went to Cesar's house to have sex with him.

Can we at least give her a little dignity until or unles we find out that was the case. IMO [/*]

I think it's very implausible that Maria went to his house to have sex with him. That being said, I don't have a problem at all with posters who speculate this and post their thoughts.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Howiefan

I think it could have been a gift from someone.. and Laurean just wanted to dispose of it just like he did Maria..good riddance to Maria and good riddance to baby too.. just saying it could have been his thinking
Also after skimming over last nights post, if Maria was having contractions wold she willing go to Laureans and have sex? I cannot picture this..
there is just so much we do not know... Maria being at ATM at 4:20. then supposedly at bus station buying ticket at 5 pm .. and then going to Lauren's and having sex with him,..I just don't buy her going there and being caught in bed with him.. The time frame is so tight and the possibility of Christina being home at 7 pm or so..and then her being a cooperating witness... this is all so totally weird..
jmo [/*]

There is no proof that Maria went to that home willingly, imo.

I'm waiting for the absurd theory that Maria rolled over there, 8 months pregnant, in a sexual frenzy and when she and her rapist/lover were having sex in bed, she went into labor. Watch, we'll eventually sink to that level of total nonsense, imo.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert

Well, all the investigators must be deaf then, cuz cesar is the only one charged with this gruesome murder. :tongue: [/*]

YEP

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Maka


I think the ME used "may have occurred after death" because there's always a chance CL cut her neck before she died rather than after...even if the wound wasn't the cause of her death.

I don't think Maria made that wound. It's more comparable to someone positioned from behind and cutting in an upward fashion toward the midline....possibly by holding the person's arm from behind to make the wound or just on their own. People tend to reach across their own neck, cut downward from the area below the corner of the jaw to the midline of the throat when they cut at an angle because of body mechanics.

But I dunno for sure!!


MOO [/*]

No we really don't know.

But the scenario of that just causes more confusion for me.

So he did this and he had the knife and like I have said before it is very common for military personnel to have their own knifes which they keep very sharp yet he discards that deadly lethal weapon that he had in his hand readily available and picks up a bludgeoning object to kill her with instead.:confused:

imo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert

Well, all the investigators must be deaf then, cuz cesar is the only one charged with this gruesome murder. :tongue: [/*]

Don't bet your farm Reggie. :tongue:

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


It sure looks like she never saw it coming. Like she was looking straight ahead maybe or at someone else and didn't have time to even turn to deflect it..

I see blind uncontrollable rage that erupted into molten hot lava.

imoo [/*]

As we have seen from the pictures of inside the Laurean garage, the area by the door leading to the backyard wasn't that big. If Maria was struck there, wouldn't the possibility exist that marks (not bloodspatter) were left on the drywall or even perhaps the wood in the area around the window by the murder weapon?

I don't think Maria saw it coming either. If she did, wouldn't she have instinctly try to either duck or make an attempt to turn and run?

Didn't RS say the majority of blood was over by the push mower? (this was when he was interviewed by GVS and no I don't have the link)

JMO

[bkwits]

Originally posted by old_lady


I don't think so. Not even a little dignity.

jmoo [/*]


:(
`
`
`
`

[Maka]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


From the autopsy report:

There is a superficial incised wound to the left side of the neck. The wound is 4" long, and gaping to 2". It is located 7" from the top of the head, and beginning in the midline. There is only minimal damage to the underlying muscle. No critical structures are damaged.

Looking at the diagram on page 6, the wound appears to extend downward from the midline. JMO [/*]

hmmm I wonder if he means the action of making the wound began from the midline or if that's his reference of location.

I hope we can get clarification on that. Hoping he'll get interviewed or answer Qs at a PC.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Don't bet your farm Reggie. :tongue: [/*]
Oh I think it's a very safe bet that cesar is the only one charged. Cuz he is.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by bkwits
SNIPPED

Can we at least give her a little dignity until or unles we find out that was the case. IMO [/*]

Nobody has tried to do anything to Maria here. There is a distinct difference between discussing information that has been made public and speculating vs trashing a victim IMO.

I don't tell anyone what to post, or what not to post and don't understand the need for anyone to do so.

JMO.:shrug:

[henry]

Originally posted by bkwits
Even with the gruesome and sad reading from the autopsy, Maria crushed and burned, her baby still hanging on to an umbilical cord though dismembered and burned, a pathetic token baby clothing in a bag.

Even with all of that pathos, some are conjecturing that Maria went to Cesar's house to have sex with him.

Can we at least give her a little dignity until or unles we find out that was the case. IMO [/*]

i've been skimming posts since last evening , which is something i rarely do . . . and jump over exactly what you're talking about . . .

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


Watch, we'll eventually sink to that level of total nonsense, imo. [/*]

Already have. (as you can see)

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by old_lady


I believe she was sexually assaulted again.


jmoo [/*]

At 8 mos. pregnant? I don't think so.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by old_lady


I believe she was sexually assaulted again.


jmoo [/*]

I would not put ANYTHING past this coward who blugeoned and burned this young pregnant Marine.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


There is no proof that Maria went to that home willingly, imo.

I'm waiting for the absurd theory that Maria rolled over there, 8 months pregnant, in a sexual frenzy and when she and her rapist/lover were having sex in bed, she went into labor. Watch, we'll eventually sink to that level of total nonsense, imo. [/*]

There also is no proof that she didn't go willingly.

But since Sutherland said on JDN that they are wrapping the case up now and getting ready for a trial it does seem they have no evidence that showed she was forced to come there the day she did.

66 days and counting..........no added charges of kidnapping. No added charges of desecrating a body.

So imo there is more to show that she did go there on her own for some reason.

imoo

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert

Oh I think it's a very safe bet that cesar is the only one charged. Cuz he is. [/*]

Yep!

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by caejde


I do think it's odd that her panties and pants weren't mentioned. But I don't know what that means...could be alot.
[/*]

It means they, like her shoes, socks, Dayton sweatshirt/hoodie, glasses were not found in the pit with her corpse.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert

Oh I think it's a very safe bet that cesar is the only one charged. Cuz he is. [/*]

For now Reggie, for now and enjoy pleasantville and the farm while he's gone, as it may be a whole new case when he is returned to NC. NOBODY knows and I know I probably won't see you again if it's not as you believe now.


:patriot: On to the trial. JMO

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


There also is no proof that she didn't go willingly.

But since Sutherland said on JDN that they are wrapping the case up now and getting ready for a trial it does seem they have no evidence that showed she was forced to come there the day she did.

66 days and counting..........no added charges of kidnapping. No added charges of desecrating a body.

So imo there is more to show that she did go there on her own for some reason.

imoo [/*]



AND no charges against Christina, so I guess there won't be charges against Christina according to your reasoning. IMO

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Maka


hmmm I wonder if he means the action of making the wound began from the midline or if that's his reference of location.

I hope we can get clarification on that. Hoping he'll get interviewed or answer Qs at a PC. [/*]

Exactly, is the wound 'tapered' in a way that it's deeper near the midline and isn't as deep as it is measured from the midline? I wonder if the general 2-inch gaping wound (depth) indication means the entire wound from the beginning to the end of the 4" wound or is that the most center portion of the wound. IOW, were increment measurements done to see various depths to the wound along that 4" length. JMO

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Sami
I'm not at all surprised that there were few rags of clothing found in that pit.

Consider that she was SO burned, that she (and her Baby) only weighed 98 pounds and she only measured a little over four feet tall, at the autopsy.

She lost A LOT of tissue, skin, bone, etc. IMO

How could she have possible have lost so much of her internal organs and her outer covering of skin and even bone, yet her clothing have remained intact.

The autopsy reported that most of the damage was from the waist down, so of course her panties and slacks would not be visible to the naked eye (possibly fibers can be found in the ash and dirt, though).

I doubt her sports bra and shirt were intact -- probably just charred rags barely recognizable except by the shape of a scrap that wasn't destroyed by the fire.

I really hate it that so many here think she was naked or raped or, worse, had gone there to have sex with him, simply because her slacks and panties were not intact.

According to the report we all read, I see NO facts that would lead to that conclusion (just the opposite, in fact), and I think it's insulting, for the family and for Maria's memory.

JMO [/*]

Thank you, Sami. :patriot:

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


At 8 mos. pregnant? I don't think so. [/*]

I don't think she was sexually assaulted period. JMO.

She died a horrible death I wouldn't wish on anyone and we still don't know if they had some kind of a relationship after the allegations or not. :shrug:

I would never have believed a woman who accused a man of rape would go to his home PERIOD, but she did. JMO.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Mimi428


It means they, like her shoes, socks, Dayton sweatshirt/hoodie, glasses were not found in the pit with her corpse. [/*]

Well that's obvious. But where are they then? Or did they get burned completely and there are no traces.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Jas.S


I will be totally to surprised if there is anything from any news source about it.

Because there is nothing new about it.

Body was burned, there was a cut, she died from a head wound, etc.

Nothing for news to report. [/*]

Remember we didn't find out the report was available until late yesterday afternoon so most news outlets, if they are interested, won't have anything until sometime Monday. I'm sure they would want their own copy, not what the JDNews has or any of us have.

The JDNews, which is locally, has published it but that's mainly due to the murder taking place here and they know there is a lot of interest in Maria's case.

I just checked witntv.com's site and they have no mention of the report either, along with wnct.com, wral.com and wcti12.com.

So there is the possibility that they won't report it since as you basically put it, it's not news worthy.

JMO

[hinman]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


There also is no proof that she didn't go willingly.

But since Sutherland said on JDN that they are wrapping the case up now and getting ready for a trial it does seem they have no evidence that showed she was forced to come there the day she did.

66 days and counting..........no added charges of kidnapping. No added charges of desecrating a body.

So imo there is more to show that she did go there on her own for some reason.

imoo [/*]and no added charges for Christina you would think by now they would stack some charges on her.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


There also is no proof that she didn't go willingly.

But since Sutherland said on JDN that they are wrapping the case up now and getting ready for a trial it does seem they have no evidence that showed she was forced to come there the day she did.

66 days and counting..........no added charges of kidnapping. No added charges of desecrating a body.

So imo there is more to show that she did go there on her own for some reason.

imoo [/*]

Oh, I think there is and so does Detective DuBois:

From the probable cause affadavit:


My experience and training leads me to believe that:

1. Maria Lauterbach's day to day routine was disrupted on 12/14/07.

2. A woman due to give birth shortly would not normally abandon her source of low-cost medical care, i.e., the US Naval Hospital at Camp Lejeune and enter a military status of UA.

3. A woman about to give birth would be reluctant to abandon her cellular telephone on the side of the road, but someone who did not want the cellular telephone traced might throw the cellular telephone of the car.

4. Maria's routine was to talk to her family at least every other day. A woman about to give birth would not abandon that source of support within two weeks of her anticipated deliver date.

5. The anticipated birth of Maria's baby might provide evidential credence to charges she lodged with the military that she was sexually assaulted by a senior military person.

What is the proof she went to that home willingly?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits




AND no charges against Christina, so I guess there won't be charges against Christina according to your reasoning. IMO [/*]

They have plenty of time to tell her they are going to charge her.

In another case a witness who was a "cooperating witness" did a plea deal the week before they testified in the trial.

Much time for that to come and they won't offer that until they get CAL back and once he comes back they may not deal with her at all. She may become to have too much baggage herself to be worth the State calling her.

imoo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


There also is no proof that she didn't go willingly.

But since Sutherland said on JDN that they are wrapping the case up now and getting ready for a trial it does seem they have no evidence that showed she was forced to come there the day she did.

66 days and counting..........no added charges of kidnapping. No added charges of desecrating a body.

So imo there is more to show that she did go there on her own for some reason.

imoo [/*]

I think they have the answers on why she went to the house that day GB, I really do.

JMO.:o

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Sami

I doubt her sports bra and shirt were intact -- probably just charred rags barely recognizable except by the shape of a scrap that wasn't destroyed by the fire.
[/*]

But enough of her sports bra was remaining for the ME to tell it was a size "medium". Enough of her bra was left that the ME could tell it was a bra. Enough of her shirt was left that the ME could tell it was a shirt.

Also - the autopsy reveals that a portion (loop) of bowel was present. If there was enough remaining in that portion of her body, I would expect that there would be a possibility that her underpants & outerpants would be present, although in some small amount.

I believe the areas of charring reflect where the fire itself touched her body. Whatever was underneath got hot enough to be 'cooked', so to speak, but was not burned away, as was the stuff exposed to the fire.

(my apologies for the graphic descriptions)

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


Oh, I think there is and so does Detective DuBois:

From the probable cause affidavit:


My experience and training leads me to believe that:

1. Maria Lauterbach's day to day routine was disrupted on 12/14/07.

2. A woman due to give birth shortly would not normally abandon her source of low-cost medical care, i.e., the US Naval Hospital at Camp Lejeune and enter a military status of UA.

3. A woman about to give birth would be reluctant to abandon her cellular telephone on the side of the road, but someone who did not want the cellular telephone traced might throw the cellular telephone of the car.

4. Maria's routine was to talk to her family at least every other day. A woman about to give birth would not abandon that source of support within two weeks of her anticipated deliver date.

5. The anticipated birth of Maria's baby might provide evidential credence to charges she lodged with the military that she was sexually assaulted by a senior military person.

What is the proof she went to that home willingly? [/*]

That is light years away now Regina. That was when the case first began. Much investigation, knowledge and evidence has happened since then.

LE have a starting point but it never means the end results is the same as when the case first unfolded and you know that.

imoo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


They have plenty of time to tell her they are going to charge her.

In another case a witness who was a "cooperating witness" did a plea deal the week before they testified in the trial.

Much time for that to come and they won't offer that until they get CAL back and once he comes back they may not deal with her at all. She may become to have too much baggage herself to be worth the State calling her.

imoo [/*]

But, but, but, you said RS was wrapping up the case and there would be no new charges against Cesar, IYO. So, if he is wrapping up the case and there is no possiblity of placing new charges against Cesar, he would also be placing any applicable charges agains Ctina.

You can't have it both ways. IMO

[caejde]

Lynn had posted this video earlier this morning.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E9zBoX90KgU

At about 1:04 Sheriff Brown mentions a struggle. Also around 1:14 there is talk about the blood being found up in the ceiling.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


For now Reggie, for now and enjoy pleasantville and the farm while he's gone, as it may be a whole new case when he is returned to NC. NOBODY knows and I know I probably won't see you again if it's not as you believe now.


:patriot: On to the trial. JMO [/*]

LOL, then you don't know me very well. I don't run from a case. If I'm wrong I have no problem admitting it and always have a saute pan of wine, lemon, garlic and butter sauce ready to go with any crow I may have to choked down.

Just see that you're here.

:cool:

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Jas.S


I think that news outlets that have done ongoing reporting on this case, have files on it, and do updates, will update it.

I just truly do not see how it's news to a CNN or Faux or NBC, etc. [/*]

Actually it was on cnn.com this morning. But as you said, "nothing new"......the only thing that was pointed out in the article online was that the neck wound was "probably post-mortem" so that struck down Cesar's story........

Much ado about nothing.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


That is light years away now Regina. That was when the case first began. Much investigation, knowledge and evidence has happened since then.

LE have a starting point but it never means the end results is the same as when the case first unfolded and you know that.

imoo [/*]

Well, have you seen ANYTHING that changes they way this Detective is thinking? I haven't.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


I think they have the answers on why she went to the house that day GB, I really do.

JMO.:o [/*]

Actually I think so too.

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by bkwits
Even with the gruesome and sad reading from the autopsy, Maria crushed and burned, her baby still hanging on to an umbilical cord though dismembered and burned, a pathetic token baby clothing in a bag.

Even with all of that pathos, some are conjecturing that Maria went to Cesar's house to have sex with him.

Can we at least give her a little dignity until or unles we find out that was the case. IMO [/*]I honestly do not believe went to Cesar`s place to have sex with him in fact I do not even believe she went to his place willingly.
I totally agree with giving her a little dignity..

jmo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


LOL, then you don't know me very well. I don't run from a case. If I'm wrong I have no problem admitting it and always have a saute pan of wine, lemon, garlic and butter sauce ready to go with any crow I may have to choked down.

Just see that you're here.

:cool: [/*]

And I'll share your dish of crow, if need be, Scamp, but I just hope we have a trial even if we have to swallow something unpalatable. :chicken: Not

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Howiefan
I honestly do not believe went to Cesar`s place to have sex with him in fact I do not even believe she went to his place willingly.
I totally agree with giving her a little dignity..

jmo [/*]

THANK YOU :patriot:

Semper Fi

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


But, but, but, you said RS was wrapping up the case and there would be no new charges against Cesar, IYO. So, if he is wrapping up the case and there is no possibility of placing new charges against Cesar, he would also be placing any applicable charges agains Ctina.

You can't have it both ways. IMO [/*]

I am not having it both ways. They are wrapping up CALs case. The trial is in the future and has nothing to do with the completion of the evidence in his case.

At that time, if it ever happens, is when they will deal or no deal with CSL right before the trial is held. So they will keep her twisting in the wind for now. She is not needed at this time as no trial or even the suspect is being held.

If CSL is charged it would not be the same case. There would be two totally different cases.

imoo

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by bkwits


And I'll share you dish of crow, if need be, Scamp, but I just hope we have a trial even if we have to swallow something unpalatable. :chicken: Not [/*]

Absolutely bkwits, I always share with friends........ :tongue:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


Well, have you seen ANYTHING that changes they way this Detective is thinking? I haven't. [/*]

Yes, no kidnapping charges were even presented to a GJ.

imoo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by henry


in my spare time i was perusing some of the other threads & noticed a comment made about NC - don't remember which counties they were talking about . . . but several posters mentioned how difficult it is to get strong convictions - does anyone know anything about onslow county? [/*]

henry,

Onslow County isn't know for liberal bleeding hearts (like Orange County is, IMO) and we aren't afraid of DP, LWOP, etc.

I can assure you if DA Hudson and or ADA Ernie Lee have the evidence CAL will be convicted. We may be a county that some consider to be podunkville but be assured we have the ability to see through the smoke and mirrors that can, and possiblily will be brought forth by a defense attorney.

JMO FWIW

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by old_lady


I don't believe Cesar will have the last word as to what happened.:D

Hmmmmm I wonder if the jury would believe any words from him.

jmo [/*]

What? You don't believe upon his return LE will fall into a rapture of belief for all utterances spilling forth from the mouth of cesar and then immediately arrest Christina for the murder? :eek:

I'm shocked I tell ya, just shocked!



:tongue:

[hinman]

Originally posted by Jas.S


We don't know.

There is no evidence in the report that they were burned completely.

The report says that the sports bra and shirt were on top of the body, period. [/*]I wonder if there could be a possibility that the front of the clothing burned away leaving on the portion that would be on top.

Like it burned on the front of the clothing leaving some on her back or vice versa.

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


I don't think she was sexually assaulted period. JMO.

She died a horrible death I wouldn't wish on anyone and we still don't know if they had some kind of a relationship after the allegations or not. :shrug:

I would never have believed a woman who accused a man of rape would go to his home PERIOD, but she did. JMO. [/*]
where is the proof or something pointing to your thinking that she went to his home willinglyÉ

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


I think they have the answers on why she went to the house that day GB, I really do.

JMO.:o [/*]

I am very sure about that one factor. I do believe as you do that they know she did go there that day on her own accord and was not forced.

imoo

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Yes, no kidnapping charges were even presented to a GJ.

imoo [/*]

A Grand Jury does not deal with all of the potential charges in a case tho, imo. Perhaps at the time of the Grand Jury the DA did not have the evidence to prove BARD the kidnapping part of this crime. imo.

IIRC, LE is on record as saying more charges are possible.

[Maka]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


Exactly, is the wound 'tapered' in a way that it's deeper near the midline and isn't as deep as it is measured from the midline? I wonder if the general 2-inch gaping wound (depth) indication means the entire wound from the beginning to the end of the 4" wound or is that the most center portion of the wound. IOW, were increment measurements done to see various depths to the wound along that 4" length. JMO [/*]

I'm following you about the increments...I'm betting they did measure depth at least at each end of the wound and both separated edges at their center mark.

IMO the 2 inch reference is for width, like if you cut out a football shape from paper and measure across the widest point in the middle...or like when you open your eyelids and measure from the top lashes to the bottom lashes centered over your pupil.
----
All in all...I don't think Maria made that wound.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I am not having it both ways. They are wrapping up CALs case. The trial is in the future and has nothing to do with the completion of the evidence in his case.

At that time, if it ever happens, is when they will deal or no deal with CSL right before the trial is held. So they will keep her twisting in the wind for now. She is not needed at this time as no trial or even the suspect is being held.

If CSL is charged it would not be the same case. There would be two totally different cases.

imoo [/*]


They would have to ascertain her part in the murder, cover-up and/or helping Cesar escape. She is an integral part of his case, especially if she had anything to do with the actual murder. If they think she's the one who killed Maria, she would be arrested, imo.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by caejde


Well that's obvious. But where are they then? Or did they get burned completely and there are no traces. [/*]

And where are her shoes? Surely they didn't burn completely since most shoes have rubber soles. I would think they should have found at least traces of the soles.

Also I have a feeling that anything that wasn't thrown in the pit with her, in regards to her personal effects, are over at the landfill on Pony Farm Rd. but that's just my pure speculation.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


I don't think she was sexually assaulted period. JMO.

She died a horrible death I wouldn't wish on anyone and we still don't know if they had some kind of a relationship after the allegations or not. :shrug:

I would never have believed a woman who accused a man of rape would go to his home PERIOD, but she did. JMO. [/*]

I don't think sex was involved either.

I don't think sex was on the mind of the perpetrator when they did this to Maria and Gabriel..........far from it imo.

imoo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Howiefan

where is the proof or something pointing to your thinking that she went to his home willinglyÉ [/*]

I don't think that will ever be released until the trial, if we ever get that far.

JMO

[caejde]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


And where are her shoes? Surely they didn't burn completely since most shoes have rubber soles. I would think they should have found at least traces of the soles.

Also I have a feeling that anything that wasn't thrown in the pit with her, in regards to her personal effects, are over at the landfill on Pony Farm Rd. but that's just my pure speculation.

JMO [/*]

Well I had mentioned that it was odd her panties or pants weren't found. But that I didn't know what it could mean. It was pointed out to me that obviously it meant they weren't in the grave. And I was just pointing out that it was obvious they weren't in the grave. But what I meant was what does it mean they aren't in the grave....did they burn, was that stuff in the shed, did it get thrown away...what?

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think sex was involved either.

I don't think sex was on the mind of the perpetrator when they did this to Maria and Gabriel..........far from it imo.

imoo [/*]

I can't see where that would be high on CAL's list of priorities for December 14, 2007.

I think he was more concerned about getting shed of Maria and her unborn child.

JMO

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by hinman
I think total opposite though I have no problem with you thinking this way on this point. I think there is a purpose for her being arrested. Justice to Maria and her unborn baby, Maria's family and the fact that if she did do the murder why let a murderer run lose? No excuse for that.

If it was an anger issue who is to say her child is safe or anyone that might tick her off. She is active in the military. I do not see the purpose of not arresting her if they have any evidence that she was involved in this crime.

but like I said I can understand and respect your position on it. [/*]

Either way, he needs to be found. The only anger issue I see is anger towards Maria. Maria was a threat to her marriage, her livelihood. Their daughter is not. If anything, the daughter was the glue that held them together this long.

I believe the evidence will show that two people participated in the murder and the cover up. Just like in the cadet case, Diane Zamora may have struck Adrienne in the head, but David Graham fired the fatal shots. They were arrested in simultaneous arrests, thereby not allowing one time to warn the other. They were both charged with 1st Degree murder and both were convicted, even though they wound up pointing the finger at each other during separate trials. The bottom line is they were together at the time of the crime.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by caejde


Well I had mentioned that it was odd her panties or pants weren't found. But that I didn't know what it could mean. It was pointed out to me that obviously it meant they weren't in the grave. And I was just pointing out that it was obvious they weren't in the grave. But what I meant was what does it mean they aren't in the grave....did they burn, was that stuff in the shed, did it get thrown away...what? [/*]

And why were they off of her body to start with?

:shrug:

[Janz]

Originally posted by Sami


I agree, Howie.

And I find it terribly sad that we all read what horror those two bodies endured, even after death when most sane adults treat a body with respect -- and at the same time, debate that she might have gone there to have sex with him.

Just grates on my sensibilities toward the dead. FACTS should be discussed, and nowhere has LE said they thought Maria went to Laurean's house to have sex with him. [/*]

Thank you , Sami. I realize this is a MB, but this is a theory/opinion with absolutely no facts what so ever. More than enough has been done to Maria. This is just MOO.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


And where are her shoes? Surely they didn't burn completely since most shoes have rubber soles. I would think they should have found at least traces of the soles.

Also I have a feeling that anything that wasn't thrown in the pit with her, in regards to her personal effects, are over at the landfill on Pony Farm Rd. but that's just my pure speculation.

JMO [/*]

With the rolled-up rug:biggrin:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


A Grand Jury does not deal with all of the potential charges in a case tho, imo. Perhaps at the time of the Grand Jury the DA did not have the evidence to prove BARD the kidnapping part of this crime. imo.

IIRC, LE is on record as saying more charges are possible. [/*]

Of course they do unless Hudson goes for a preliminary hearing which he chose the GJ.

It has been 66 days since DA Hudson has had this case.

No kidnapping charges have been attached and imo they won't be. They are through charging him. IMO the evidence leads them to know that contact was made between CAL and ML and she came to his home on her own accord.

Even Trace Gallagher reported that inside LE sources have told him they do believe she came there to his home that day. Maybe they have uncovered witnesses that saw her in the neighborhood and drive into his driveway.

imoo

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by caejde


Well I had mentioned that it was odd her panties or pants weren't found. But that I didn't know what it could mean. It was pointed out to me that obviously it meant they weren't in the grave. And I was just pointing out that it was obvious they weren't in the grave. But what I meant was what does it mean they aren't in the grave....did they burn, was that stuff in the shed, did it get thrown away...what? [/*]
that is a good question.. what happened to the rest of the clothes.. I think the bra and shirt were just planted on top of Maria... in other words to add more confusion for LE..
Clothes were probably destroyed. This person who did this is a real wacko..
jmo

[caejde]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


And why were they off of her body to start with?

:shrug: [/*]

I am wondering if the shoes that were found-the one outside and the one inside weren't Maria's. Just because they were male shoes doesn't mean anything. To me it looked liked a small size for a male...my opinion of course.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


I can't see where that would be high on CAL's list of priorities for December 14, 2007.

I think he was more concerned about getting shed of Maria and her unborn child.

JMO [/*]

Especially if he was freaking out that Christina could be walking in that door at any minute.

imoo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I am not having it both ways. They are wrapping up CALs case. The trial is in the future and has nothing to do with the completion of the evidence in his case.

At that time, if it ever happens, is when they will deal or no deal with CSL right before the trial is held. So they will keep her twisting in the wind for now. She is not needed at this time as no trial or even the suspect is being held.

If CSL is charged it would not be the same case. There would be two totally different cases.

imoo [/*]

My sentoments too.:o

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Sami


I agree, Howie.

And I find it terribly sad that we all read what horror those two bodies endured, even after death when most sane adults treat a body with respect -- and at the same time, debate that she might have gone there to have sex with him.

Just grates on my sensibilities toward the dead. FACTS should be discussed, and nowhere has LE said they thought Maria went to Laurean's house to have sex with him. [/*]

Well if all we can discuss is absolute facts, there is precious little to discuss.

By the very nature of message boards, we are allowed to speculate.

Like I said upthread, I don't for a moment think Maria went to his house to have sex willingly.....though I do think she went to his house, for whatever reason, willingly....but I will staunchly defend everyone's right to their own opinions, however speculative.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


LOL, then you don't know me very well. I don't run from a case. If I'm wrong I have no problem admitting it and always have a saute pan of wine, lemon, garlic and butter sauce ready to go with any crow I may have to choked down.

Just see that you're here.

:cool: [/*]

Why yes, you came full circle with admitting you were wrong in the Duke case....

Oh wait, that was somebody else.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Jas.S


A grand jury does NOT have to believe anything BARD, firt of all. That is for a trial.

And, yes, a Grand Jury does deal with all potential charges. [/*]

LOL Right......the famous saying for GJs is they will indict a ham sandwich.

That low threshold and proving something BARD in a court of law is totally different.

imoo

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by bkwits



They would have to ascertain her part in the murder, cover-up and/or helping Cesar escape. She is an integral part of his case, especially if she had anything to do with the actual murder. If they think she's the one who killed Maria, she would be arrested, imo. [/*]

I absolutely agree on this 100% bkwits.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Why yes, you came full circle with admitting you were wrong in the Duke case....

Oh wait, that was somebody else. [/*]

I did go on that board and admit I was wrong. As I said, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Sami


Well, if you had finished your experiment with your hubby last night you probably wouldn't have been asking that. :D

Her clothes burned off her body. Only fragments were left. Her organs were destroyed, too, as was the outer dimensions of her body, from fire and its resultant fast decomposition.

How could the clothes have endured if her body, organs, tissues, even bones, had charred beyond recognition or even forensic analysis.

Had it not been for her teeth, she couldn't have been easily identified as being Maria.

This seems to be bordering on the absurd about the clothes!!!! IMO [/*]

Well Cryme was too busy trying to hide from the little men who were coming after her for removing the tags. :biggrin:

Her other clothing items could have very well been burnt completely but that still doesn't explain about her shoes. As I stated earlier, since most shoes now have rubber soles, surely remnants of the rubber should have been found.

And then where are her glasses?

Maybe there are remnants of the rubber soles in the bags of dirt that were also retrieved? Who knows? :shrug:

JMO

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Sami


Well, if you had finished your experiment with your hubby last night you probably wouldn't have been asking that. :D

Her clothes burned off her body. Only fragments were left. Her organs were destroyed, too, as was the outer dimensions of her body, from fire and its resultant fast decomposition.

How could the clothes have endured if her body, organs, tissues, even bones, had charred beyond recognition or even forensic analysis.

Had it not been for her teeth, she couldn't have been easily identified as being Maria.

This seems to be bordering on the absurd about the clothes!!!! IMO [/*]

But yet you have a bra where the size and type can still be determined, you have a shirt where even the color can still be determined, and you have a plastic bag that is only melted but clearly visible a label that reads "0-3 months".

Absurd? You tell me.



:shrug:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


I did go on that board and admit I was wrong. As I said, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. [/*]

I must have missed it. If I did, please accept my apologies.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Jas.S


A grand jury does NOT have to believe anything BARD, firt of all. That is for a trial.

And, yes, a Grand Jury does deal with all potential charges. [/*]

I didn't say what the grand jury has to believe. My point was about what the Prosecutor could prove BARD.

You are incorrect, a grand jury only has to return indictments on what the Prosecutor offers. Since the investigation is ongoing, there is always the chance of extra charges in this case.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Sami


They called her clothes 'fragments' -- if the right fragments were left, size could be determined, imo.

There were NO organs left to determine toxicology. The fire enhanced the decomposition and there was nothing to even test.

I thought it was so sad that this was on the Toxicology Report that I was sent:



I don't think it's feasible to believe that clothes would remain intact on a body whose organs have been destroyed. JMO [/*]

I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure I made myself clear earlier. Let me try again...

The autopsy report states that the fragments that were found were located (by the ME when the corpse was taken out of the body bag & the covering sheet taken away) on top of the body. I believe they were found in that position because the fragements were placed there by those who exhumed the burn pit.

I believe that at the time the ME personnel found her in the burn pit, that whatever clothing fragments were left were underneath the parts of her body that were at the lowest level.

She was found face down, with the left portion of her body closest to the surface & the right portion of her body closest to the bottom of the pit. I believe textile fragments would have been from that lowest part - IOW, under the right side of her body.

The left side, closest to the surface, would have received the flames of the fire. The right side, which was in the closest proximity to the earth at the bottom of the pit, would have 'cooked' - but would not have been charred from flames.

I believe that the area of that lowest part of the pit was the area that contained most, if not all, of the recovered textile fragments. I don't think the fabrics of her shirt & bra were viewable as they would be when she was wearing them, but were in the corresponding vacinity relative to the position of her body.

Does that make more sense? (I hope!)

JMO

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Especially if he was freaking out that Christina could be walking in that door at any minute.

imoo [/*]

Oh yes and I wonder what that conversation would have consisted of? 'Ah honey we have a little problem out in the garage'? 'You know that bee who accused me, well for some reason she showed up here today and started some crap and it got out of hand and well...'

JMO

:seeya: Glad to know you made it through last night OK. You were one of the first ones (outside of my neice who lives in Athens) I thought of when I saw what happened.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Well if all we can discuss is absolute facts, there is precious little to discuss.

By the very nature of message boards, we are allowed to speculate.

Like I said upthread, I don't for a moment think Maria went to his house to have sex willingly.....though I do think she went to his house, for whatever reason, willingly....but I will staunchly defend everyone's right to their own opinions, however speculative. [/*]

That is what I believe happened too, Savannah.

I also firmly belief everyone is entitled to offer their own opinions about this case and any other. And speculations have always been allowed.

imoo:seeya:

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure I made myself clear earlier. Let me try again...

The autopsy report states that the fragments that were found were located (by the ME when the corpse was taken out of the body bag & the covering sheet taken away) on top of the body. I believe they were found in that position because the fragements were placed there by those who exhumed the burn pit.

I believe that at the time the ME personnel found her in the burn pit, that whatever clothing fragments were left were underneath the parts of her body that were at the lowest level.

She was found face down, with the left portion of her body closest to the surface & the right portion of her body closest to the bottom of the pit. I believe textile fragments would have been from that lowest part - IOW, under the right side of her body.

The left side, closest to the surface, would have received the flames of the fire. The right side, which was in the closest proximity to the earth at the bottom of the pit, would have 'cooked' - but would not have been charred from flames.

I believe that the area of that lowest part of the pit was the area that contained most, if not all, of the recovered textile fragments. I don't think the fabrics of her shirt & bra were viewable as they would be when she was wearing them, but were in the corresponding vacinity relative to the position of her body.

Does that make more sense? (I hope!)

JMO [/*]

Based on this excellent explanation, do you believe that had she been clothed from the waist down, fragments should have been found under the remains on the right side?

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure I made myself clear earlier. Let me try again...

The autopsy report states that the fragments that were found were located (by the ME when the corpse was taken out of the body bag & the covering sheet taken away) on top of the body. I believe they were found in that position because the fragements were placed there by those who exhumed the burn pit.

I believe that at the time the ME personnel found her in the burn pit, that whatever clothing fragments were left were underneath the parts of her body that were at the lowest level.

She was found face down, with the left portion of her body closest to the surface & the right portion of her body closest to the bottom of the pit. I believe textile fragments would have been from that lowest part - IOW, under the right side of her body.

The left side, closest to the surface, would have received the flames of the fire. The right side, which was in the closest proximity to the earth at the bottom of the pit, would have 'cooked' - but would not have been charred from flames.

I believe that the area of that lowest part of the pit was the area that contained most, if not all, of the recovered textile fragments. I don't think the fabrics of her shirt & bra were viewable as they would be when she was wearing them, but were in the corresponding vacinity relative to the position of her body.

Does that make more sense? (I hope!)

JMO [/*]

That DOES make sense......I had not thought about it in that way at all.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by old_lady


Like I posted at the beginning of the thread, her underware, bottom half of her clothing. and shoes are missing. There would have been something left or them if only the tiniest of pieces if they were on her body. I believe they were missing. I wonder why?

jmoo [/*]

I don't know, but I have to wonder if they weren't with her body are they in the landfill or were they placed in a dumpster somewhere else? Which if they were, they would eventually end up in the county landfill or at the base landfill if they were placed in a dumpster on base.

JMO

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure I made myself clear earlier. Let me try again...

The autopsy report states that the fragments that were found were located (by the ME when the corpse was taken out of the body bag & the covering sheet taken away) on top of the body. I believe they were found in that position because the fragements were placed there by those who exhumed the burn pit.

I believe that at the time the ME personnel found her in the burn pit, that whatever clothing fragments were left were underneath the parts of her body that were at the lowest level.

She was found face down, with the left portion of her body closest to the surface & the right portion of her body closest to the bottom of the pit. I believe textile fragments would have been from that lowest part - IOW, under the right side of her body.

The left side, closest to the surface, would have received the flames of the fire. The right side, which was in the closest proximity to the earth at the bottom of the pit, would have 'cooked' - but would not have been charred from flames.

I believe that the area of that lowest part of the pit was the area that contained most, if not all, of the recovered textile fragments. I don't think the fabrics of her shirt & bra were viewable as they would be when she was wearing them, but were in the corresponding vacinity relative to the position of her body.

Does that make more sense? (I hope!)

JMO [/*]

Yes, it does. Poor Maria.:o

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


Oh yes and I wonder what that conversation would have consisted of? 'Ah honey we have a little problem out in the garage'? 'You know that bee who accused me, well for some reason she showed up here today and started some crap and it got out of hand and well...'

JMO

:seeya: Glad to know you made it through last night OK. You were one of the first ones (outside of my niece who lives in Athens) I thought of when I saw what happened. [/*]

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall that day when she walked through that door to face her no show hubby.

Aww...how nice.......thanks for thinking of me. It actually turned out to be rather nice here. Sun shinning brightly today. This time my daughter's area got hit hard.

imoo

:seeya:

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by old_lady


Some are so far out they turn to nonsense and joking.

jmoo [/*]

I don't think anyone has posted an opinion/theory in a joking manner, or it was meant to be taken to be complete "nonsense." Except by some who want others' opinions stifled. What about "thinking outside the box"? For a while on here that was espoused as a highly desirable attribute of a crime board poster. :cool:

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure I made myself clear earlier. Let me try again...

The autopsy report states that the fragments that were found were located (by the ME when the corpse was taken out of the body bag & the covering sheet taken away) on top of the body. I believe they were found in that position because the fragements were placed there by those who exhumed the burn pit.

I believe that at the time the ME personnel found her in the burn pit, that whatever clothing fragments were left were underneath the parts of her body that were at the lowest level.

She was found face down, with the left portion of her body closest to the surface & the right portion of her body closest to the bottom of the pit. I believe textile fragments would have been from that lowest part - IOW, under the right side of her body.

The left side, closest to the surface, would have received the flames of the fire. The right side, which was in the closest proximity to the earth at the bottom of the pit, would have 'cooked' - but would not have been charred from flames.

I believe that the area of that lowest part of the pit was the area that contained most, if not all, of the recovered textile fragments. I don't think the fabrics of her shirt & bra were viewable as they would be when she was wearing them, but were in the corresponding vacinity relative to the position of her body.

Does that make more sense? (I hope!)

JMO [/*]

Yes Mimi, your post does make sense.

And this could explain why the staples and nails were found in her body too----gravity pulled them down.

JMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think sex was involved either.

I don't think sex was on the mind of the perpetrator when they did this to Maria and Gabriel..........far from it imo.

imoo [/*]

Sex? Or sexual assault?

I think you know that sexual assault is NOT ABOUT SEX, but about power.

I can't discount that he may very well have sexually assaulted her just before or just after he killed her - but his motivation wasn't that he was horny for her bod - but because he wanted to continue to humiliate, degrade, dehumanize the bi*ch who wouldn't do what he wanted.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by old_lady


Some are so far out they turn to nonsense and joking.

jmoo [/*]

But I have no weight in saying that other posters' speculations are nonsense. I don't govern what others may think. While you may think they are nonsense ........I am sure to the poster making them they think they are not.

We are not clones and each person individually has their own theories and ideas about any case here on this message board.

imoo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Sex? Or sexual assault?

I think you know that sexual assault is NOT ABOUT SEX, but about power.

I can't discount that he may very well have sexually assaulted her just before or just after he killed her - but his motivation wasn't that he was horny for her bod - but because he wanted to continue to humiliate, degrade, dehumanize the bi*ch who wouldn't do what he wanted.

JMO [/*]

Yes, I agree sexual assault/rape is about power, venting frustration, violence and not about lust (at least not in the end result).

I hope that Cesar didn't humiliate Maria like this, one last time.

IMO

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Sex? Or sexual assault?

I think you know that sexual assault is NOT ABOUT SEX, but about power.

I can't discount that he may very well have sexually assaulted her just before or just after he killed her - but his motivation wasn't that he was horny for her bod - but because he wanted to continue to humiliate, degrade, dehumanize the bi*ch who wouldn't do what he wanted.

JMO [/*]

To me this flies in the face of the theory that this was a heat of the moment, rage killing.....which I believe. Not to mention that everything we do know about Laurean (which granted, isn't much) doesn't point to him being that type of person.

Now THAT comment will get a few laughs I'm sure. As in, "well look at the way he killed her.....he WAS 'that type of person.'"

I think rage made him do what he did, period. And whatever "catalyst" (thank you again for that word, Candy) drove him that particular day. I do not believe that rage drove him to sexually assault her either before or after her death. Not for a minute.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


I don't think anyone has posted an opinion/theory in a joking manner, or it was meant to be taken to be complete "nonsense." Except by some who want others' opinions stifled. What about "thinking outside the box"? For a while on here that was espoused as a highly desirable attribute of a crime board poster. :cool: [/*]

ITA SS.

I don't think anyone has posted 'nonsense' either. Everyone is curious to know just what happened on that fateful day of December 14th.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Sex? Or sexual assault?

I think you know that sexual assault is NOT ABOUT SEX, but about power.

I can't discount that he may very well have sexually assaulted her just before or just after he killed her - but his motivation wasn't that he was horny for her bod - but because he wanted to continue to humiliate, degrade, dehumanize the bi*ch who wouldn't do what he wanted.

JMO [/*]

I see no evidence of that Mimi.

I think maybe it will be more understandable when there is a trial and when it is known why Maria came there willingly and I do think LE has found that link.

I see no sexual attack in this.........I do see an extreme crime of passion building up for months and I do believe whatever happened ..........happened in a blink of an eye and had nothing to do with a sexual act that day.

imoo

[scillak]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure I made myself clear earlier. Let me try again...

The autopsy report states that the fragments that were found were located (by the ME when the corpse was taken out of the body bag & the covering sheet taken away) on top of the body. I believe they were found in that position because the fragements were placed there by those who exhumed the burn pit.

I believe that at the time the ME personnel found her in the burn pit, that whatever clothing fragments were left were underneath the parts of her body that were at the lowest level.

She was found face down, with the left portion of her body closest to the surface & the right portion of her body closest to the bottom of the pit. I believe textile fragments would have been from that lowest part - IOW, under the right side of her body.

The left side, closest to the surface, would have received the flames of the fire. The right side, which was in the closest proximity to the earth at the bottom of the pit, would have 'cooked' - but would not have been charred from flames.

I believe that the area of that lowest part of the pit was the area that contained most, if not all, of the recovered textile fragments. I don't think the fabrics of her shirt & bra were viewable as they would be when she was wearing them, but were in the corresponding vacinity relative to the position of her body.

Does that make more sense? (I hope!)

JMO [/*]

Wondering if the left side was closest to surface because they were hoping to burn the side with the evidence - blow to head on left.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Well if all we can discuss is absolute facts, there is precious little to discuss.

By the very nature of message boards, we are allowed to speculate.

Like I said upthread, I don't for a moment think Maria went to his house to have sex willingly.....though I do think she went to his house, for whatever reason, willingly....but I will staunchly defend everyone's right to their own opinions, however speculative. [/*]

That's because you don't find it necessary to shove your opinion down anyone's throat and believe they are entitled to reasonable speculation on a messageboard dedicated to the study, speculation and theorizing of cases prior to and including trial IMO.


:seeya:

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by bkwits
Even with the gruesome and sad reading from the autopsy, Maria crushed and burned, her baby still hanging on to an umbilical cord though dismembered and burned, a pathetic token baby clothing in a bag.

Even with all of that pathos, some are conjecturing that Maria went to Cesar's house to have sex with him.

Can we at least give her a little dignity until or unles we find out that was the case. IMO [/*]

I'm with you on this. I know there's going to be speculation, and really that's why we are here, throwing out theories and suppositions and trying to see what fits.

That particular idea, that Maria went there to have sex with Cesar, turns my stomach. However I also realize that we are each free to express our opinions.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by scillak


Wondering if the left side was closest to surface because they were hoping to burn the side with the evidence - blow to head on left. [/*]


That's a possibility. Destroy the evidence that Maria and her unborn child ever existed.

CAL wanted to be rid of 'his problem' period. After all, according to him, she was the source of 'his problem'.

I still can't get away from the fact that those bonfire attendees and the neighbor's didn't notice the smell of burning flesh (sorry to be graphic).


jmo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


To me this flies in the face of the theory that this was a heat of the moment, rage killing.....which I believe. Not to mention that everything we do know about Laurean (which granted, isn't much) doesn't point to him being that type of person.

Now THAT comment will get a few laughs I'm sure. As in, "well look at the way he killed her.....he WAS 'that type of person.'"

I think rage made him do what he did, period. And whatever "catalyst" (thank you again for that word, Candy) drove him that particular day. I do not believe that rage drove him to sexually assault her either before or after her death. Not for a minute. [/*]


Savannah, I respectfully disagree with you as to what type of person Cesar was/is. In my mind, it is not just the murder, but the nonchalant way he went about doing things afterward. He, knowing she was buried in his backyard, tried to use her ATM card to get money. He coldly went about having bonfires over the bodies of this young marine and her child (possibly his child), not once but three times. He nonchalantly rode a bus to Mexico. I think he is living there without shame or remorse for what he did.

I pray that he will find it in his heart to own up to what he did and clear up things for his wife and daughter, as well as Maria's family.

IMO

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


I didn't say what the grand jury has to believe. My point was about what the Prosecutor could prove BARD.

You are incorrect, a grand jury only has to return indictments on what the Prosecutor offers. Since the investigation is ongoing, there is always the chance of extra charges in this case. [/*]

D.A. Dewey Hudson said this after the Grand Jury returned the 5 charged indictment, so it seems by his comments that more charges could be sought depending on what the continuing investigation reveals:

District Attorney Dewey Hudson announced at a news conference the return of indictments against Cpl. Cesar Armando Laurean for first-degree murder, financial card theft, attempted financial card fraud, fraud and robbery with a dangerous weapon.

Laurean, 21, is wanted in the death of Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach, 20. Her charred remains were found two weeks ago in a shallow grave behind Laurean's Onslow County house.

Hudson said he might seek more indictments against Laurean later.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2347267/

[caejde]

Originally posted by nuttintodo



That's a possibility. Destroy the evidence that Maria and her unborn child ever existed.

CAL wanted to be rid of 'his problem' period. After all, according to him, she was the source of 'his problem'.

I still can't get away from the fact that those bonfire attendees and the neighbor's didn't notice the smell of burning flesh (sorry to be graphic).


jmo [/*]

If it was mixed with other stuff like the wood, would it have a distinct smell? Also, would accelerant hide the smell? Or would it smell like the smell comes with barbecuing any animal...sorry not trying to be gross.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


I'm with you on this. I know there's going to be speculation, and really that's why we are here, throwing out theories and suppositions and trying to see what fits.

That particular idea, that Maria went there to have sex with Cesar, turns my stomach. However I also realize that we are each free to express our opinions. [/*]

We just don't know why she went there. Period.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


Based on this excellent explanation, do you believe that had she been clothed from the waist down, fragments should have been found under the remains on the right side? [/*]

Yes, absolutely. The autopsy report indicates that while the LEFT lung (closest to the surface) was charred away - the RIGHT lung was present in enough capacity to be removed, weighed, determined to be normally formed & without focal lesions.

The upper LEFT thigh is specifically notated in the autopsy to be charred front and back. If the RIGHT thigh was in the same state, it would also have been mentioned as being so. I believe IF her underpants & outer pants had remained on her body, fragments of those materials would have been found underneath the right thigh area.

The autopsy report makes it very clear that although a significant portion of her entire body (inside & out) was charred - there was ALSO enough left of her muscles & organs to decompose.

Look for the word "autolyze" - a process of DECOMPOSITION (not burning)

MICROSCOPIC EXAMINATION
Cardiovascular
Autolyzed.
Respiratory
Autolyzed.
Liver
Autolyzed.

That means those organs rotted from decomposition. They may have been EXPOSED to fire & heat - but they were not entirely consumed by it - enough was left for the process of enzyme breakdown which constitute decomposition.

Enough muscle tissue remained in her neck/throat area for the ME to measure the depth of the incised wound to the point that he could ascertain that the wound was "superficial".

She had a lot of charring from being exposed to flames - but her entire body was NOT consumed by flames - enough was left to decompose.

(sorry to be so graphic)

JMO

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


D.A. Dewey Hudson said this after the Grand Jury returned the 5 charged indictment, so it seems by his comments that more charges could be sought depending on what the continuing investigation reveals:

District Attorney Dewey Hudson announced at a news conference the return of indictments against Cpl. Cesar Armando Laurean for first-degree murder, financial card theft, attempted financial card fraud, fraud and robbery with a dangerous weapon.

Laurean, 21, is wanted in the death of Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach, 20. Her charred remains were found two weeks ago in a shallow grave behind Laurean's Onslow County house.

Hudson said he might seek more indictments against Laurean later.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2347267/ [/*]

Thank you Lynn. I think I'll file this one away.


:seeya:

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by old_lady


I think it was simply a murder by opportunity. She was there, he hated her so he sexually assaulted her again, and murdered her. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

jmoo [/*]

But WHY was she there? WHY was she in the home of the man who allegedly raped her?

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Sex? Or sexual assault?

I think you know that sexual assault is NOT ABOUT SEX, but about power.

I can't discount that he may very well have sexually assaulted her just before or just after he killed her - but his motivation wasn't that he was horny for her bod - but because he wanted to continue to humiliate, degrade, dehumanize the bi*ch who wouldn't do what he wanted.

JMO [/*]

just exactly what I am thinking only I went a step further.. I don`t think she went to his place on her own free will
jmo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by caejde


If it was mixed with other stuff like the wood, would it have a distinct smell? Also, would accelerant hide the smell? Or would it smell like the smell comes with barbecuing any animal...sorry not trying to be gross. [/*]

I know you're not trying to be gross caejde.

(And I'm inserting here that I'm not trying to be gross either) I know from experience when my hubby was burning a wood pile, there was some UGH dead rats (not wittle mice but the big fellas and there appeared to have been trapped in the wood) and even through the wood smell I could smell the burning flesh of them. But since I have smelled that smell before, I may just be sensitive enough to smell it over anything else.

Now I won't venture anything about cooking food over burning flesh---I can't even imagine cooking, much less eating food that was cooked over a dead and burning human. Just the thought of that makes me want to barf !

jmo

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Yes, absolutely. The autopsy report indicates that while the LEFT lung (closest to the surface) was charred away - the RIGHT lung was present in enough capacity to be removed, weighed, determined to be normally formed & without focal lesions.

The upper LEFT thigh is specifically notated in the autopsy to be charred front and back. If the RIGHT thigh was in the same state, it would also have been mentioned as being so. I believe IF her underpants & outer pants had remained on her body, fragments of those materials would have been found underneath the right thigh area.

The autopsy report makes it very clear that although a significant portion of her entire body (inside & out) was charred - there was ALSO enough left of her muscles & organs to decompose.

Look for the word "autolyze" - a process of DECOMPOSITION (not burning)

MICROSCOPIC EXAMINATION
Cardiovascular
Autolyzed.
Respiratory
Autolyzed.
Liver
Autolyzed.

That means those organs rotted from decomposition. They may have been EXPOSED to fire & heat - but they were not entirely consumed by it - enough was left for the process of enzyme breakdown which constitute decomposition.

Enough muscle tissue remained in her neck/throat area for the ME to measure the depth of the incised wound to the point that he could ascertain that the wound was "superficial".

She had a lot of charring from being exposed to flames - but her entire body was NOT consumed by flames - enough was left to decompose.

(sorry to be so graphic)

JMO [/*]

Thank you Mimi, you've taken very complex terminology and explained it very well.

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by Sami


And we don't know if she was driven there without her consent. [/*]:beer: exactly Sami:seeya:

[scillak]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


I'm with you on this. I know there's going to be speculation, and really that's why we are here, throwing out theories and suppositions and trying to see what fits.

That particular idea, that Maria went there to have sex with Cesar, turns my stomach. However I also realize that we are each free to express our opinions. [/*]

I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to disparage Maria. It's just that their relationship is so confusing. I didn't mean that she was there to have sex, but that one thing might have led to another. Someone pointed out that the fact that no pants were found means nothing - I agree and I shouldn't have placed weight on that or added it to my theory. But, I still think that Christina caught Maria at her house and came in swinging. I shouldn't keep saying it, because I am not a good guesser, by any means. But, wanted to apologize - my heart is with Maria in this and I don't want to sound like I'm making ill of her.

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by old_lady


Good question. I just can't figure out why.
He may have called her or she called him. They decided to have a little talk after she told him she was leaving.

jmo [/*]
and just maybe he took her by force jmo also wouldn`t phone records know if she/he had talked on phone and as to who called who or iirc the phone had been tampered with Maria`s that is.

jmo

[gaelicpeas]

There were 8 evidence bags included with the body, IIRC. IMO, if the clothing fragments had been found in the dirt under her body, they would have been put into an evidence bag, not placed on top of her body.

So, I guess I disagree that LE placed the fragments on top of her body. I think they found them on top of her body, but I could be completely wrong, too. JMO.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by caejde


If it was mixed with other stuff like the wood, would it have a distinct smell? Also, would accelerant hide the smell? Or would it smell like the smell comes with barbecuing any animal...sorry not trying to be gross. [/*]

A few summers ago my hub fished a dead duck out of the water behind our house, cuz he didn't want me to see it. He put it into a bag and into the trash for pick up the next day. OMG, such an odor you would not believe. We had to get rid of that trash can, the odor would not come out.

There is no way, that an odor of death and decomposition wasn't present, imo. Even over and above the fire and smoke odor.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


A few summers ago my hub fished a dead duck out of the water behind our house, cuz he didn't want me to see it. He put it into a bag and into the trash for pick up the next day. OMG, such an odor you would not believe. We had to get rid of that trash can, the odor would not come out.

There is no way, that an odor of death and decomposition wasn't present, imo. Even over and above the fire and smoke odor.

[/*]

And I'm not discounting that there wasn't an odor. Just trying to think of reasons why noone would have smelled it or why there would be no odor at all. I just don't know. I do recall a neighbor saying she had seen buzzards in the area...but in all honesty I see buzzards alot and don't think twice about them.

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
There were 8 evidence bags included with the body, IIRC. IMO, if the clothing fragments had been found in the dirt under her body, they would have been put into an evidence bag, not placed on top of her body.

So, I guess I disagree that LE placed the fragments on top of her body. I think they found them on top of her body, but I could be completely wrong, too. JMO. [/*]
I think they found them on the top of her too...

[Cardinal]

There could be an explanation other than sexual contact (although I don't find that theory reprehensible as do some) for the lack of clothing from the waist down.

Maybe she went into labor.


JMO and Hi, everyone. :seeya:

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by Sami


Hi, Cardinal. :seeya:

Geez. We have such a small timeframe to have all this occurring, if we are to believe that everything was over and done with and cleaned up by the time Christina got home at 7:00. :shrug: [/*]

Hi, Sami :seeya:

ITA and that is one of the things that nags at me most.

[caejde]

Found this article about burning flesh.
http://www.slate.com/id/2162676/fr/flyout

But if Maria was underground was buried, would anyone have smelled it?

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by scillak


I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to disparage Maria. It's just that their relationship is so confusing. I didn't mean that she was there to have sex, but that one thing might have led to another. Someone pointed out that the fact that no pants were found means nothing - I agree and I shouldn't have placed weight on that or added it to my theory. But, I still think that Christina caught Maria at her house and came in swinging. I shouldn't keep saying it, because I am not a good guesser, by any means. But, wanted to apologize - my heart is with Maria in this and I don't want to sound like I'm making ill of her. [/*]

You have no reason to apologise; you are entitled to your opinion and speculations. Really, what I was referring to was the particular speculation that Maria went there for sex.

And, you are right, what we have heard about their relationship is extremely confusing. I have been thinking about that almost nonstop since reading that report yesterday afternoon; there is such a large piece of this horrible puzzle missing.

But what you say here is much appreciated; it is obvious from your words that your heart is with Maria and shows that it is possible to speculate about unpleasant things and at the same time demonstrate respect to the victim, who isn't here to tell us her side of what really happened.

[scillak]

Originally posted by Howiefan

and just maybe he took her by force jmo [/*]

Aw, man. I thought that for the longest time and now I can't remember why I ruled it out. I thought that he made her go to the ATM, get the bus ticket, made her write the note, got her to his house and killed her - all of these using force or coercion or a mixture of both. I thought that he had planned this trail ahead of time, to make it look like she ran off. Somewhere along the line I decided, though, that Cesar loved Maria. He was married, he loved his daughter, but, then here was this co-worker that came along - she was stunning, fun to be with - and Cesar fell in love. I don't think he killed her. I think that he loved her. But, then where does the rape accusation come in. Ya see. No matter what explanation you try to find, there is something that doesn't quite fit! Geesh!

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by scillak


Aw, man. I thought that for the longest time and now I can't remember why I ruled it out. I thought that he made her go to the ATM, get the bus ticket, made her write the note, got her to his house and killed her - all of these using force or coercion or a mixture of both. I thought that he had planned this trail ahead of time, to make it look like she ran off. Somewhere along the line I decided, though, that Cesar loved Maria. He was married, he loved his daughter, but, then here was this co-worker that came along - she was stunning, fun to be with - and Cesar fell in love. I don't think he killed her. I think that he loved her. But, then where does the rape accusation come in. Ya see. No matter what explanation you try to find, there is something that doesn't quite fit! Geesh! [/*]

I've considered that same line of thinking, scillak. And I've speculated before that the alleged rape may have been in the nature of a date rape while Maria was too impaired to give consent.

JMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


Thank you Mimi, you've taken very complex terminology and explained it very well. [/*]

You are very welcome.

To me, although it is disturbing to contemplate the desecration of Maria's body AFTER her death, contemplating the skull fractures, which caused her death, are far more disturbing.

Right now I don't even want to think of the force it took to inflict that hinge fracture on her skull. Makes me wonder if Cesar ever played baseball much (apologies to baseball fans everywhere)

[hinman]

Originally posted by Sami


I enjoy your posts, scillak.

I think we've all been confused by this case. It's just mind boggling about the timeline. I don't see how, even if she did go to his house willingly (which I doubt), that he had time to accomplish everything before 7:00. :shrug: [/*]I don't think there is a way, but do we know that Christina went home at that time?

I would say if she was there at 7 then why is there not some type of charge against her. I wonder if she went somewhere else after the party? IF she was at that house at 7 that would mean her and probably her daughter saw a lot more then they are admitting. I wonder if the child has ever been interviewed.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Mimi428


You are very welcome.

To me, although it is disturbing to contemplate the desecration of Maria's body AFTER her death, contemplating the skull fractures, which caused her death, are far more disturbing.

Right now I don't even want to think of the force it took to inflict that hinge fracture on her skull. Makes me wonder if Cesar ever played baseball much (apologies to baseball fans everywhere) [/*]

I don't understand the hinge fractures. What are they would those have killed her? Were those from a second blow to the head? Or could they have been from falling and hitting the concrete floor? Or did the only blow that killed her come from the left side? Could the blow to the left side caused the hinge fractures?

**Sorry for so many questions.

[caejde]

Originally posted by hinman
I don't think there is a way, but do we know that Christina went home at that time?

I would say if she was there at 7 then why is there not some type of charge against her. I wonder if she went somewhere else after the party? IF she was at that house at 7 that would mean her and probably her daughter saw a lot more then they are admitting. I wonder if the child has ever been interviewed. [/*]

Child is only 18 months...so probably not alot she could offer.

[Babes]

Originally posted by hinman
I don't think there is a way, but do we know that Christina went home at that time?

I would say if she was there at 7 then why is there not some type of charge against her. I wonder if she went somewhere else after the party? IF she was at that house at 7 that would mean her and probably her daughter saw a lot more then they are admitting. I wonder if the child has ever been interviewed. [/*]


Did she bring the kid to the party?

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Mimi428


You are very welcome.

To me, although it is disturbing to contemplate the desecration of Maria's body AFTER her death, contemplating the skull fractures, which caused her death, are far more disturbing.

Right now I don't even want to think of the force it took to inflict that hinge fracture on her skull. Makes me wonder if Cesar ever played baseball much (apologies to baseball fans everywhere) [/*]

Well, if he played baseball, would he still have a bat lying around?

Hmmmm, didn't we read somewhere early on that Christina was a softball player?

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by scillak


Aw, man. I thought that for the longest time and now I can't remember why I ruled it out. I thought that he made her go to the ATM, get the bus ticket, made her write the note, got her to his house and killed her - all of these using force or coercion or a mixture of both. I thought that he had planned this trail ahead of time, to make it look like she ran off. Somewhere along the line I decided, though, that Cesar loved Maria. He was married, he loved his daughter, but, then here was this co-worker that came along - she was stunning, fun to be with - and Cesar fell in love. I don't think he killed her. I think that he loved her. But, then where does the rape accusation come in. Ya see. No matter what explanation you try to find, there is something that doesn't quite fit! Geesh! [/*]

Oh! This is what I have been thinking about! You are right there are many pieces that don't fit but, what about the rape allegations? Is it possible Cesar was telling her he loved her and that really he didn't realize she wanted him to stop and maybe eventually Maria started thinking this way as well? Maybe they were talking about all this between the two of them and trying to figure out how they could make the allegations go away and maybe save both their careers? And I also wonder if Cesar might have been including some "Happily Ever After" talk in all that?

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Mimi428


You are very welcome.

To me, although it is disturbing to contemplate the desecration of Maria's body AFTER her death, contemplating the skull fractures, which caused her death, are far more disturbing.

Right now I don't even want to think of the force it took to inflict that hinge fracture on her skull. Makes me wonder if Cesar ever played baseball much (apologies to baseball fans everywhere) [/*]

If you remember Dale Earnhardt, Sr. had a basilar skull fracture and we know how much force caused that to happen (or at least we've seen the wreck and knew he didn't have any head or neck restraint).

So I would think it did take a lot of force to cause that fracture.

Also with Maria's hyoid bone intact we do know that he didn't attempt to strangle her.

JMO

[caejde]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


If you remember Dale Earnhardt, Sr. had a basilar skull fracture and we know how much force caused that to happen (or at least we've seen the wreck and knew he didn't have any head or neck restraint).

So I would think it did take a lot of force to cause that fracture.

Also with Maria's hyoid bone intact we do know that he didn't attempt to strangle her.

JMO [/*]

What's the hyoid bone? I read it in the autopsy but don't know what it is.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by hinman
I don't think there is a way, but do we know that Christina went home at that time?

I would say if she was there at 7 then why is there not some type of charge against her. I wonder if she went somewhere else after the party? IF she was at that house at 7 that would mean her and probably her daughter saw a lot more then they are admitting. I wonder if the child has ever been interviewed. [/*]

Even the DA has said he doesn't think the timeline fits as far as Cesar being able to accomplish everything before Christina got home.

I remember a case here (a while back) where we couldn't figure out why somebody hadn't been arrested for something....went on for over a year...when all of a sudden, they (LE) were talking to someone else about a totally different crime and one little slip of the tongue, added 3 minutes earlier to our suspect's time of arrival. It's the little things that trip them up every time.

[Babes]

Question:

If Maria was brought by CL to his house by Force - then why bring Maria to his house if Christina can be there anytime? Why not bring her to the forest and kill her there and bury the body somewhere and not on his own backyard?

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Babes



Did she bring the kid to the party? [/*]

That's yet another unknown---we don't know if Abrianna was with her mother, at a babysitter or with CAL.

JMO

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Babes
Question:

If Maria was brought by CL to his house by Force - then why bring Maria to his house if Christina can be there anytime? Why not bring her to the forest and kill her there and bury the body somewhere and not on his own backyard? [/*]

Or where he wouldn't have run the risk of Maria escaping and running over to Wanda's or one of the other neighbors?

:shrug:

[CanCan]

Originally posted by caejde


What's the hyoid bone? I read it in the autopsy but don't know what it is. [/*]

Hi caeje--IIRC, the hyoid bone is a horsehshoe-shaped bone in the neck, maybe near the tongue. It's free-floating. It snaps in the event of strangulation.

jmo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by caejde


What's the hyoid bone? I read it in the autopsy but don't know what it is. [/*]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoid_bone

In cases of suspicious death, a fractured hyoid is a strong sign of strangulation

I remember the hyoid bone being fractured in the murder of Kathleen Peterson and that's why I said at least CAL didn't try to strangle Maria.

[Babes]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


That's yet another unknown---we don't know if Abrianna was with her mother, at a babysitter or with CAL.

JMO [/*]

Any chance that this kid spent time with her grandparents? - Christina possibly spent the night there too and maybe she and Cesar had a little fight and they went to her parents home - leaving Cesar alone in their house - then Christina decided to attend the Xmas Party ( she's on a peak of jealousy as Maria is about to give birth to Cesar's first son! ) - Christina didnt find him in the party and decided to go home and discover Cesar and Maria together in Bed ...

[caejde]

Thanks for answering my questions!

[Babes]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Or where he wouldn't have run the risk of Maria escaping and running over to Wanda's or one of the other neighbors?

:shrug: [/*]

Right. Did they find any blood on Maria or Cesar's car?

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by Babes
Question:

If Maria was brought by CL to his house by Force - then why bring Maria to his house if Christina can be there anytime? Why not bring her to the forest and kill her there and bury the body somewhere and not on his own backyard? [/*]
I think that maybe he intended to do that as you say but Maria was quite athletic I do believe. .I believe she fought with every ounce that she had in her.. iirc most of the blood was found in the garage no? or am I wrong..I think he gaged her, brought her there..inside garage struggle took place a

[Babes]

Originally posted by Sami


Good point. Just so confusing. . . . [/*]

This case left more questions than answers. But i do believe Christina knows more than what she's telling IMO

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Sami


I totally agree that most criminals get tripped up by the tiniest of details.

Just like the sheet and comforter theory. If it weren't part of LE's attempt to contain forensic evidence, then the sheet would have seemed obviously part of a bed ensemble, imo. Just that one tiny detail could have made a difference to me. [/*]

The comforter, with or without a bedsheet, is not small potatoes. IMO

[caejde]

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11757

Good article about sex assault.

[Howiefan]

Originally posted by Babes


Any chance that this kid spent time with her grandparents? - Christina possibly spent the night there too and maybe she and Cesar had a little fight and they went to her parents home - leaving Cesar alone in their house - then Christina decided to attend the Xmas Party ( she's on a peak of jealousy as Maria is about to give birth to Cesar's first son! ) - Christina didnt find him in the party and decided to go home and discover Cesar and Maria together in Bed ... [/*]
I think that Christina spent many nights there at the house after the 14th... baloney... I cannot believe she did not know some of what was going on.. It is totally impossible
jmo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Babes


Right. Did they find any blood on Maria or Cesar's car? [/*]

We don't know, They've never released what, if anything, they found in either vehicle.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Babes


Any chance that this kid spent time with her grandparents? - Christina possibly spent the night there too and maybe she and Cesar had a little fight and they went to her parents home - leaving Cesar alone in their house - then Christina decided to attend the Xmas Party ( she's on a peak of jealousy as Maria is about to give birth to Cesar's first son! ) - Christina didnt find him in the party and decided to go home and discover Cesar and Maria together in Bed ... [/*]

IIRC, Christina's mother and stepfather live in Ohio. CSL's sister lives in Jacksonville, not too far from the Laurean house. So that's a possibility that Abrianna was over at her sister Amber's house that day/night.

JMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Sami
Mimi, I really appreciate your analysis of the body.

I wonder what you think about this - from the Autopsy Report:



It seems to me, that the complexity of how and what the fire burned and what survived, is a mystery.

The fetus is outside of the abdomen -- possibly expelled by gas buildup?

The extreme heat has caused the fetus to be in 'at least two parts', but a loop of bowel is still intact, as is a portion of the umbilical cord.

I don't think we can presuppose what the fire might have destroyed and what it might have left intact. Fire seems to have no standard to which it has to adhere. JMO, and I'd like to know what you think about it. TIA [/*]

Good questions!

I think we should have a thread specifically about the autopsy report - what do you think?

It is (to me) incredibly difficult to try to discuss all of the anatomical stuff in the middle of discussions about possible motive, characteristics of the parties & so on.

The skull fractures, for example, are complicated to discuss - just as much as the fire/charred/consumed/decomposed is complicated.

I am going to look for some stuff which I 'HOPE' will help us all (myself included) to have a rational discussion. I need to refamiliarize my own self because it has been quite awhile since I have had to deal with or even think about all the anatomical details.

Perfect example is the basilar skull fractures - explanations of the hinge fracture, views of the middle fossa, etc. This is not an easy subject to begin with & I don't want to get a thread all bogged down with "is too! - is NOT" posts because of fuzzy details.

JMO