Saturday - 03/15/08 - a.m. [Archive] - Page 2

Babes

03-15-2008, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan

I think that maybe he intended to do that as you say but Maria was quite athletic I do believe. .I believe she fought with every ounce that she had in her.. iirc most of the blood was found in the garage no? or am I wrong..I think he gaged her, brought her there..inside garage struggle took place a [/*]

Yeah but still christina could be there anytime - not unless he got the blessings of Christina to "take care of her" IMO.

IMO - "running and chasing " possibly took place in the house that ended in the garage . There is blood everywhere - not only in the garage. There are blood in the bedroom too.

Lynn Gweeny

03-15-2008, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Or possibly landing on one's chin on a concrete floor after being struck. :mad: [/*]

A similar case of head trauma resulting in a hinge fracture for the victim:

However, Dr. Rexene Worrell of the Clark County coroner's office testified that Hirst suffered a hinge fracture of her skull and that that type of injury is usually associated only with the most severe head trauma.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Feb-25-Fri-2005/news/25937772.html

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan

I think that Christina spent many nights there at the house after the 14th... baloney... I cannot believe she did not know some of what was going on.. It is totally impossible
jmo [/*]

Didn't one of the neighbor's say that Christina was gone at some point in time before Christmas?

GentleBreeze

03-15-2008, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

Yes, absolutely. The autopsy report indicates that while the LEFT lung (closest to the surface) was charred away - the RIGHT lung was present in enough capacity to be removed, weighed, determined to be normally formed & without focal lesions.

The upper LEFT thigh is specifically notated in the autopsy to be charred front and back. If the RIGHT thigh was in the same state, it would also have been mentioned as being so. I believe IF her underpants & outer pants had remained on her body, fragments of those materials would have been found underneath the right thigh area.

The autopsy report makes it very clear that although a significant portion of her entire body (inside & out) was charred - there was ALSO enough left of her muscles & organs to decompose.

Look for the word "autolyze" - a process of DECOMPOSITION (not burning)

MICROSCOPIC EXAMINATION
Cardiovascular
Autolyzed.
Respiratory
Autolyzed.
Liver
Autolyzed.

That means those organs rotted from decomposition. They may have been EXPOSED to fire & heat - but they were not entirely consumed by it - enough was left for the process of enzyme breakdown which constitute decomposition.

Enough muscle tissue remained in her neck/throat area for the ME to measure the depth of the incised wound to the point that he could ascertain that the wound was "superficial".

She had a lot of charring from being exposed to flames - but her entire body was NOT consumed by flames - enough was left to decompose.

(sorry to be so graphic)

JMO [/*]

Thanks Mimi!

But how do we know that her body was in an open grave where the open flames would be directly on her? If that were so it seems the more the fire raged the more she would have been completely burned not just charred on her left side.

I know that the heat from the bonfire would heat up the cavity below and the surrounding dirt around and above her body and we know that even trapped heat rises. So imo the most heat would be generated from above ground to probably a foot down into the three foot grave.

It seems to me as Maria became charred if it were done by an open flame directly on top of her body then with three different burn times there would be very little left of Maria at all and that is not the case since the autopsy report says she weighed 95 pounds when discovered.

I also do not believe he would have sat a bonfire directly over the exposed body because wood burns up quickly and others there could not only see her there but also smell the body being burned.

I think he did bury her and when the fire raged above her on ground level the heat was so great that it charred her body on the side closest to the heat.

imoo

Babes

03-15-2008, 03:48 PM

Babes

03-15-2008, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

We don't know, They've never released what, if anything, they found in either vehicle. [/*]

Thanks cry -

Lynn Gweeny

03-15-2008, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Babes

Right. Did they find any blood on Maria or Cesar's car? [/*]

I don't believe anything has been made public about what was found in Maria's car, aside from the MPO, but Capt. Sutherland did say this about Laurean's truck:

"There is forensic evidence that has been recovered from that truck. Its nature necessitates that it will have to go the (State Bureau of Investigation) lab to be tested further," Sutherland said, declining to elaborate.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2311944/

The possible murder weapon was taken to the State Bureau of Investigation crime lab in Raleigh to be examined, Sutherland said - adding that the object was given to them by a witness, therefore ruling out the possibility the weapon was recovered from Laurean's 2004 Dodge Ram pickup.

http://www.enctoday.com/news/laurean_43811_kfpress__article.html/lauterbach_told.html

Mimi428

03-15-2008, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean
HINGE FRACTURE- SKULL:

"Fracture passing across the base of the skull, likely to result from a motorcycle injury or blow to the chin..."l

http://www.nextcare.com/pdf/headinjury.pdf

From this lengthy link-

:seeya:
AB [/*]

Annie - you are a darlin' - THANK YOU!

Babes

03-15-2008, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

IIRC, Christina's mother and stepfather live in Ohio. CSL's sister lives in Jacksonville, not too far from the Laurean house. So that's a possibility that Abrianna was over at her sister Amber's house that day/night.

JMO [/*]

Oh yeah - i remember she has a sister in Jacksonville. Is the sister's husband also in Military? Ived seen their pictures are Myspace CL's sister looks like the guy on the video with Cesar buying some stuff in a store

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

IF they were in the bed together then I would like to state unequivocally they had an ongoing relationship- because what woman a 8.5 mos pregnant 1. Feels like having sex anyway (I didn't till he very end of pregnancy, sorry TMO) 2. would get naked or even partially so when 8.5 mos preg w/ a man who hadn't already seen you naked and growing larger all the time?
3. What was it- goodbye sex? I have a hard time beleiving they really were having sex- in the bedroom maybe./ He could have bought her those packaged 0-3 mos clothes and had them hid in his closet, took her in room to give it to her while they were discussing her plan * since bus didn't leave till the next day- Chritiona came home... I think she did it but you all know that...
But wasn't it in a link that ML had on no britches? Underwear or pants? See, now that fact makes me think hey maybe they WERE in the sack- but why? If they were, bet XTina was beyond rage. ML didn't hop out of the bed w/ no bottoms on and proceed to the garage where she was killed I don't think. Early reports from LE (Before they got all shut-mouthed) said blood was 'all over the house" not just in the garage.
Is anybody changing their theory? And a quicjk question- the link I saw from last night which I think was repeated a few times- I am going to go back and read it more thoroughly (I think it was the ME findings?) when did this link get discovered and where has it been? TIA [/*]

1) I don't think she was 8.5 months pregnant. IMO

2) We have the unsubstantiated rumors at the LG site of them being at a motel together shortly before her death. Again, unsubstantiated.

3) She either was in the bed or on the bed and may have *possibly* grabbed the comforter to cover herself as Christina came storming in (with or without a weapon) and then attempted to run to the garage.

Right now we don't know where the baby clothing came from, how many pieces there were, or what particular items they were.

One of my questions to RS, this last time, was in what rooms of the house blood was found.

The autopsy just came out yesterday, I believe, and Maka and JasS obtained copies of it. I believe CNN obtained a copy of it too.

Babes

03-15-2008, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Didn't one of the neighbor's say that Christina was gone at some point in time before Christmas? [/*]

You know - i mentioned this before on this board and some people said they are unaware of this but i do remember that someone did really mention that Christina went out of town before XMAS time.

Babes

03-15-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny

In don't believe anything has been made public about what was found in Maria's car, aside from the MPO, but Capt. Sutherland did say this about Laurean's truck:

"There is forensic evidence that has been recovered from that truck. Its nature necessitates that it will have to go the (State Bureau of Investigation) lab to be tested further," Sutherland said, declining to elaborate.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2311944/

The possible murder weapon was taken to the State Bureau of Investigation crime lab in Raleigh to be examined, Sutherland said - adding that the object was given to them by a witness, therefore ruling out the possibility the weapon was recovered from Laurean's 2004 Dodge Ram pickup.

http://www.enctoday.com/news/laurean_43811_kfpress__article.html/lauterbach_told.html [/*]

Thanks Lynn

GentleBreeze

03-15-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Babes

Right. Did they find any blood on Maria or Cesar's car? [/*]

I dont know about his but they have released Maria's car iirc and Captain Sutherland said it will be up to Maria's family what is done with it.

imoo

scillak

03-15-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Babes

You know - i mentioned this before on this board and some people said they are unaware of this but i do remember that someone did really mention that Christina went out of town before XMAS time. [/*]

I am so glad you said that. I almost posted that earlier. I thought that too - that Richard Alander said that Christina had been away the better part of two weeks. But....I can't find that anywhere when I try to google - so I don't know. But, I thought that, too.

Lynn Gweeny

03-15-2008, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Didn't one of the neighbor's say that Christina was gone at some point in time before Christmas? [/*]

From the video interview of Richard Alander on On The Record, he said that during the 1st couple weeks of December he didn’t see Christina but her car was there.

http://tinyurl.com/32bbsg

Babes

03-15-2008, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

I dont know about his but they have released Maria's car iirc and Captain Sutherland said it will be up to Maria's family what is done with it.

imoo [/*]

Thanks Ocean - Blood in her car could also mean something else.

scillak

03-15-2008, 03:59 PM

And, if she was gone....... Then I made up that she was due back Saturday, but decided to surprise Cesar and show up at the Christmas party. But then Cesar didn't go to the party. Then Christina goes home and finds Cesar and Maria. But....that doesn't fit timeline. Christina would have been home before 7:00 pm. There's always something that doesn't fit!!!

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Didn't one of the neighbor's say that Christina was gone at some point in time before Christmas? [/*]

Yes, and I believe we were under the impression that she had been gone out of town around the time of Maria's disappearance/murder. Then, in one of the PC's, the sheriff said that she had not been out of town.

Although.......what is the possiblility that she left after the murder? Has that ever been discussed?

Babes

03-15-2008, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by scillak

I am so glad you said that. I almost posted that earlier. I thought that too - that Richard Alander said that Christina had been away the better part of two weeks. But....I can't find that anywhere when I try to google - so I don't know. But, I thought that, too. [/*]

I remember also that early on the board we were saying that why would she leave out of town without Cesar before Xmas. One poster said that this was just a theory by another poster but ive'd read this somewhere and that it came from a neighbor - that's why i even theorized before that maybe they saw Cesar bringing girls in the house and they called Christina on her cellphone to let her know what's going on in the house ( lol )

GentleBreeze

03-15-2008, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

Yes, and I believe we were under the impression that she had been gone out of town around the time of Maria's disappearance/murder. Then, in one of the PC's, the sheriff said that she had not been out of town.

Although.......what is the possibility that she left after the murder? Has that ever been discussed? [/*]

But didn't SB sort of discount that? Didn't he say she lived with Laurean in the same house everyday.

imoo

True2Blues

03-15-2008, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Babes

Oh yeah - i remember she has a sister in Jacksonville. Is the sister's husband also in Military? Ived seen their pictures are Myspace CL's sister looks like the guy on the video with Cesar buying some stuff in a store [/*]

You're right, that is who was on the video with Cesar.

Mimi428

03-15-2008, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Thanks Mimi!

But how do we know that her body was in an open grave where the open flames would be directly on her? If that were so it seems the more the fire raged the more she would have been completely burned not just charred on her left side.

I know that the heat from the bonfire would heat up the cavity below and the surrounding dirt around and above her body and we know that even trapped heat rises. So imo the most heat would be generated from above ground to probably a foot down into the three foot grave.

It seems to me as Maria became charred if it were done by an open flame directly on top of her body then with three different burn times there would be very little left of Maria at all and that is not the case since the autopsy report says she weighed 95 pounds when discovered.

I also do not believe he would have sat a bonfire directly over the exposed body because wood burns up quickly and others there could not only see her there but also smell the body being burned.

I think he did bury her and when the fire raged above her on ground level the heat was so great that it charred her body on the side closest to the heat.

imoo [/*]

Excellent observations, GB & I agree with you. Let's transfer this over to the thread that Annie is starting because the fire elements involved are very important, imo.

I will endeavor to be more clear when discussing flames of fire versus other elements of fire, such as the coals/embers of wood produced by burning.

I don't think she was initially burned in an open pit - or at least I tend not to think so, simply because of the location of other homes near the Laurean home.

JMO

Babes

03-15-2008, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

It doesn't make sense.

The idea of kidnapping and bringing someone over to his house to kill and then bury there makes NO sense. [/*]

IMO - it will only make some sense if Cesar isnt really expecting Christina to be home that day IMO

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Everyone who wanted a copy received it yesterday from the ME's office -- many, if not most, of us have it. IMO [/*]

I'm sorry, did you get your copy from the ME's office direct or did you get it from either Maka or Jas.S or another poster?

Other than that, I'm totally in the dark about why you pulled that portion of my answer to Annie about the autopsy.

:shrug:

CanCan

03-15-2008, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Sami

They called her clothes 'fragments' -- if the right fragments were left, size could be determined, imo.

There were NO organs left to determine toxicology. The fire enhanced the decomposition and there was nothing to even test.

I thought it was so sad that this was on the Toxicology Report that I was sent:

I don't think it's feasible to believe that clothes would remain intact on a body whose organs have been destroyed. JMO [/*]

In some research I did for a forensics class I was teaching, I learned that synthetic fibers burn more slowly and often remain in fragments on a burned body. Sorry, no link, too much material to wade back through, so I'll JMO.

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

But didn't SB sort of discount that? Didn't he say she lived with Laurean in the same house everyday.

imoo [/*]

Yes he did. A hundred of these for my forgetfulness: :punch:

Babes

03-15-2008, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by scillak
And, if she was gone....... Then I made up that she was due back Saturday, but decided to surprise Cesar and show up at the Christmas party. But then Cesar didn't go to the party. Then Christina goes home and finds Cesar and Maria. But....that doesn't fit timeline. Christina would have been home before 7:00 pm. There's always something that doesn't fit!!! [/*]

Hmmm how about - Cesar told Maria that Christina is coming back Saturday already and they have to leave that's why Christina purchase a ticket to El Paso and Cesar promised her that he'll follow so people will not know that they are together?

scillak

03-15-2008, 04:10 PM

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Sami

ME's office direct, autopsy and toxicology report. [/*]

I didn't know that. I wasn't here when the report came out and was only reading thru posts where Maka had it and so did Jas.S. He even posted his email address if anybody was requesting their own copy.

I didn't know it made a difference in answering Annie's question about WHEN the autopsy came out.

Obviously I was mistaken.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny

From the video interview of Richard Alander on On The Record, he said that during the 1st couple weeks of December he didn’t see Christina but her car was there.

http://tinyurl.com/32bbsg [/*]

Oh yes THANK YOU LYNN!!

That brings back memories.

According to Richard Alander:

1) CSL told Wanda (the wife as he calls her) that 'they' were painting inside the house and the garage

2) CSL was gone a couple of weeks prior to Christmas

3) Both CL's were outside talking on 1/10, the day before he 'fleaed' (Richard speak for fled) because Wanda always eavesdropped on their conversations

4) CAL was home at 6:30am because Wanda always turned the dogs out then

5) When Wanda put their daughter on the bus at 8am, CAL was gone

JMO and what Alander said to Steff Watts during the interview

CanCan

03-15-2008, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

I don't think sex was involved either.

I don't think sex was on the mind of the perpetrator when they did this to Maria and Gabriel..........far from it imo.

imoo [/*]

Gosh - I'm wondering, like others, if Maria had gone into labor at CL's - hence the missing panties and pants.

Picture CSL appearing during this - can you IMAGINE the RAGE at seeing your rival in labor (possibly) in your very own bed???!!!:flamemad:

jmo

scillak

03-15-2008, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Babes

Hmmm how about - Cesar told Maria that Christina is coming back Saturday already and they have to leave that's why Christina purchase a ticket to El Paso and Cesar promised her that he'll follow so people will not know that they are together? [/*]

I could imagine that - or he needed to stay to work on divorce so they'd be together. But then, with this scenario, where do rape allegations fit in? I dunno ?? shrug

IvySterling

03-15-2008, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Remember we didn't find out the report was available until late yesterday afternoon so most news outlets, if they are interested, won't have anything until sometime Monday. I'm sure they would want their own copy, not what the JDNews has or any of us have.

The JDNews, which is locally, has published it but that's mainly due to the murder taking place here and they know there is a lot of interest in Maria's case.

I just checked witntv.com's site and they have no mention of the report either, along with wnct.com, wral.com and wcti12.com.

So there is the possibility that they won't report it since as you basically put it, it's not news worthy.

JMO [/*]
It was mentioned yesterday here, and the Autopsy Report was also available here:
http://www.enctoday.com/

scillak

03-15-2008, 04:16 PM

So....did this autopsy tell us anything more to go on? I'm thinking not. And no mention of paternity.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

I didn't know that. I wasn't here when the report came out and was only reading thru posts where Maka had it and so did Jas.S. He even posted his email address if anybody was requesting their own copy.

I didn't know it made a difference in answering Annie's question about WHEN the autopsy came out.

Obviously I was mistaken. [/*]

On the copy that I got from the ME's office, the autopsy report states: Digitally signed by Thomas *. Clark, III MD 14 March 2008 09:29

So it would appear the final report didn't come out until yesterday, which it isn't uncommon for the final autopsy report to take that long.

I know when my father in law was accidently killed, his final autopsy report took about the same amount of time to come out (two months).

JMO

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Sami

That's okay, Cryme -- probably your first mistake. . . . depending on that rug getting located. :D

(And according to a former post by Jas.S., 'he/she' wears curlers in 'his/her' hair, so I don't think we should presume to know 'his/her' gender). :chicken: [/*]

Actually my only mistake was in not putting your name on the "Who's Got the Autopsy List". I didn't realize it meant so much to you. IMO, it's rather childish that you would even bring it up.

Babes

03-15-2008, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Oh yes THANK YOU LYNN!!

That brings back memories.

According to Richard Alander:

1) CSL told Wanda (the wife as he calls her) that 'they' were painting inside the house and the garage

2) CSL was gone a couple of weeks prior to Christmas

3) Both CL's were outside talking on 1/10, the day before he 'fleaed' (Richard speak for fled) because Wanda always eavesdropped on their conversations

4) CAL was home at 6:30am because Wanda always turned the dogs out then

5) When Wanda put their daughter on the bus at 8am, CAL was gone

JMO and what Alander said to Steff Watts during the interview [/*]

Maybe you can also add to the list of questions you ask to the captain regarding the whereabouts of Christina during the first couple weeks of December :seeya:

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

You weren't mistaken.

It makes no difference. Not one whit.

I posted the tox report before I posted the aut report, btw. Did you get a chance to read that? [/*]

Yes I did. And thank you again for providing me the links.

scillak

03-15-2008, 04:20 PM

Ever since the possibility of a rug was mentioned - well, that made sense to me. They had a toddler about to learn to walk. You'd think you'd have a rug down so that the floor wasn't so hard. Wonder if it's laying in the woods somewhere.

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

On the copy that I got from the ME's office, the autopsy report states: Digitally signed by Thomas *. Clark, III MD 14 March 2008 09:29

So it would appear the final report didn't come out until yesterday, which it isn't uncommon for the final autopsy report to take that long.

I know when my father in law was accidently killed, his final autopsy report took about the same amount of time to come out (two months).

JMO [/*]

I know, I was trying to answer Annie's question about WHEN it came out. I wasn't here at the time and only recall reading about Maka having it and then Jas.S said they had it.

I didn't get my own personalized copy of it though, I'm always having to depend on the kindness of strangers. :D They usually don't let me down!

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I hope you think just my post is childish, and not me, the poster.

This whole thing is 'much ado about nothing'. IMO [/*]

Agreed.

Babes

03-15-2008, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by scillak

I could imagine that - or he needed to stay to work on divorce so they'd be together. But then, with this scenario, where do rape allegations fit in? I dunno ?? shrug [/*]

I dont know - the rape doesnt fit some of my theories on this case - i do think they have an affair that one day they love each other and the next day they are fighting and the 3rd day they are having sex again and the 4rth day - they are fighting again - sigh*** Many people on this age have this kind of relationships and considering that there are big obstacles between them - Military - Their Families and Christina.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S
Nuttin--the report was, as you say, completed yesterday--as it is not ready till it is not signed.

But LE and the DA could have had initial findings before, from the ME. [/*]

Yes that is correct, both would have initial reports. And I remember Dr. Charles Garrett confirming initially that Maria died of blunt force trauma to the head.

Also looking at the report I see this under Cause of Death: Blunt force injury to the head

and down under Diagnoses: Blunt force injury to the head.
Multiple, complex skull fractures of the left side of the head.
Basilar skull fractures.
Incised wound to the left side of the neck.

So it appears that Maria could have been struck more than once.

JMO

caejde

03-15-2008, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by scillak
Ever since the possibility of a rug was mentioned - well, that made sense to me. They had a toddler about to learn to walk. You'd think you'd have a rug down so that the floor wasn't so hard. Wonder if it's laying in the woods somewhere. [/*]

I've posted before that my son learned to crawl and walk on those hard floors-like the ones the Laurean's had in their home. I had no rug. I just didn't see the point in getting a rug when I wasn't going to be living in that home permanently.

scillak

03-15-2008, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Babes

I dont know - the rape doesnt fit some of my theories on this case - i do think they have an affair that one day they love each other and the next day they are fighting and the 3rd day they are having sex again and the 4rth day - they are fighting again - sigh*** Many people on this age have this kind of relationships and considering that there are big obstacles between them - Military - Their Families and Christina. [/*]

They were both so young.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S
A request:

Could we all stipulate to the fact that the autopsy report, as any autopsy report, most particularly of a child or a pregnant woman, perhaps, sounds cold and sad and horrible?

Thank you! [/*]

Raising my hand!

Agreed that any autopsy report is cold, sad and horrible.

Thanks Jas.

SavannahStar

03-15-2008, 04:34 PM

SavannahStar

03-15-2008, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Sami
I'm inclined to think that if Christina were involved in, or even knew about, the murder of Maria and Gabriel, that surely the two of them would have loaded up the bodies on Saturday (or even Friday night) and driven them far, far away. They could even have driven Maria's car if they had left Friday night.

Then, when the bodies were found, it would have been much harder to find probable cause to arrest and charge Cesar, and even harder to prove him guilty BARD.

It is the fact that nothing was done to dispose of the bodies except just leave them at the home, that leads me to believe that Cesar may have been working this alone and had to be very careful of 'disappearing' for hours at a time, either from work or from under Christina's watchful eye.

It's the main reason why I doubt her involvement, but the timeline sure seems difficult if she got home at 7:00. :shrug:

JMO [/*]

Aha! EXCELLENT points, Sami.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Or a dumpster or thrift shop- dozens of places it could have gone.
personally I would have picked dumpster- I know when all the ones in town get emotied (just kind of picked it up over the years, no reason toa ctually TRY to know that...er...well ok once in awhile I go dump some of our own stuff in a dumpster.... [/*]

But but Wanda would have said 'gee they had a rug in there before and now it's gone'.

JMO

scillak

03-15-2008, 04:38 PM

SavannahStar

03-15-2008, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

It doesn't make sense.

The idea of kidnapping and bringing someone over to his house to kill and then bury there makes NO sense. [/*]

Not a bit of sense. None.

scillak

03-15-2008, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by scillak

I made up something for that. They initially put Maria in the woods, but, then remember that some neighbor said they'd seen vultures? So, they brought the body back to burn it. Obviously, I totally made this up, but it made sense to me. [/*]

Quoting myself to disagree with myself, LOL. That doesn't make sense - why not drive the body way far away instead. There's no making sense of any of this.

Babes

03-15-2008, 04:45 PM

Hi Guys - how do we know again that Christina went home by 7pm? What is the source for this 7PM?

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by scillak

Quoting myself to disagree with myself, LOL. That doesn't make sense - why not drive the body way far away instead. There's no making sense of any of this. [/*]

According to AMW, she WAS buried in the woods first, then moved to the back yard.

:shrug:

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

But but Wanda would have said 'gee they had a rug in there before and now it's gone'.

JMO [/*]

You know, we might be surprised at exactly what ALL Wanda has told LE.

Lynn Gweeny

03-15-2008, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Babes
Hi Guys - how do we know again that Christina went home by 7pm? What is the source for this 7PM? [/*]

Trace Gallagher mentions it in his video of "Maria's Last Steps". In the timeline Trace covers, he doesn't mention getting the bus ticket from the bus station, though.

http://tinyurl.com/2mbnol

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:47 PM

Does anyone else think CAL had enough time to do all the clean-up, dispose of Maria's body, etc., be done by the time CSL walked in the door at 7pm and act normally as though nothing had happened?

I'm just not picturing him having enough time to cover all the base, so to speak before she got home at 7pm.

And if she was so upset that he was a no show at his unit's party, wonder how many phone calls transpired between the two CL's over this?

JMO

Babes

03-15-2008, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I'm not sure where anyone else heard it, Babes, but I heard it on the Greta Show.

She was talking to RS about the timeline and she said something like 'Christina was at the party by herself and got home at 7:00' (paraphrased), and RS agreed.

It's probably on a video somewhere in the GVS archives. JMO [/*]

Thanks Sami - - the kid isnt with her on the party either

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Babes
Hi Guys - how do we know again that Christina went home by 7pm? What is the source for this 7PM? [/*]

Captain Sutherland said she was home by 7pm. He has said that on numerous occasions. Now where he got his information from (CSL or any other witness, etc.), RS has not revealed that to the public.

JMO

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Does anyone else think CAL had enough time to do all the clean-up, dispose of Maria's body, etc., be done by the time CSL walked in the door at 7pm and act normally as though nothing had happened?

I'm just not picturing him having enough time to cover all the base, so to speak before she got home at 7pm.

And if she was so upset that he was a no show at his unit's party, wonder how many phone calls transpired between the two CL's over this?

JMO [/*]

Right, and he's having to answer the phone every five minutes to boot.

Uh-huh, no way, no how.

gaelicpeas

03-15-2008, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Sami

He had two hours, nuttin. Not a lot of time. IMO [/*]

Even less than that... ML was at the bus station "around 5"... and still had go through rush-hour/payday weekend traffic to CL's house.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

In NC?????????

With this state's high conviction rates??????

No way. [/*]

henry was referring to Lovette and Atwater in the Carson case. dave sargent said that Orange County is known not to hand out the DP or any other stiff sentence (this is over on Eve Carson's thread on the Current Crimes board).

Onslow County isn't afraid of the DP and/or LWOP.

JMO

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by caejde

I've posted before that my son learned to crawl and walk on those hard floors-like the ones the Laurean's had in their home. I had no rug. I just didn't see the point in getting a rug when I wasn't going to be living in that home permanently. [/*]

But did the Laureans ALWAYS have that tile in the living room, or was it new and part of their "remodeling"?

And this wasn't base housing. For all intents and purposes, they could very well have been in that house permanently.

:shrug:

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Sami
I posted Cesar had two hours, but actually he had less than that.

If she bought the ticket at 5:00, the traffic would have been horrendous at that hour, on a Friday night, last weekend of pay before Christmas.

Cuts his actual time down to probably an hour and a half. :shrug: [/*]

Exactly Sami---an hour and a half at the most. He would have had to run around there like a chicken with its head chopped off to complete everything. And then possibly throw in a shower too?

I just don't see it.

JMO

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:56 PM

I hope Calla's alright---they have tornado warnings up in her area.

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

henry was referring to Lovette and Atwater in the Carson case. dave sargent said that Orange County is known not to hand out the DP or any other stiff sentence (this is over on Eve Carson's thread on the Current Crimes board).

Onslow County isn't afraid of the DP and/or LWOP.

JMO [/*]

Lovette and Atwater HAD been convicted, but were on probation at the time Eve Carson and the Duke grad student were killed.

Atwater would have been back in jail at the time of Eve's murder except for a clerical error that re-scheduled his violation of probation case. Or should I say "should have been sent to jail".

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

But did the Laureans ALWAYS have that tile in the living room, or was it new and part of their "remodeling"?

And this wasn't base housing. For all intents and purposes, they could very well have been in that house permanently.

:shrug: [/*]

The floor could have been done by the any of the previous owner's.

I wish CS would hurry up and answer our questions! That was one of them---what type of flooring is in the living room.

JMO

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

Lovette and Atwater HAD been convicted, but were on probation at the time Eve Carson and the Duke grad student were killed.

Atwater would have been back in jail at the time of Eve's murder except for a clerical error that re-scheduled his violation of probation case. Or should I say "should have been sent to jail". [/*]

Yes and all I was trying to do was answer Jas. question.

But I do have a question in reference to Lovette and Atwater. What happened to the PO('s)? Did they fall down on their job? I know they are overworked and underpaid but still.

JMO

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Oh yeah, Chapel Hill juries, being mostly college educated and liberal, have a difficult time with the death penalty.

But in no other county of NC is that the case.

CH has no problem with LWOP.

But Orange County and Onslow County are as different as NYC and Hickory, NC. [/*]

AMEN to that! There's just no comparing Hickory to NYC.

I am also glad to know CHill has no prob with LWOP.

Thanks!

SavannahStar

03-15-2008, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Well, there you go.

So I was wrong about CNN not picking it up. :punch: to me.

It's not on the local news sources, and I live in NC.

It's just not news.

Thanks for letting me know! [/*]

It's actually still up.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/03/14/missing.marine/index.html

SavannahStar

03-15-2008, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Downtown Atlanta is being evacuated, according to Fox News. [/*]

:eek: Holy moly. I better turn the news on.

hinman

03-15-2008, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

And has been discussed amny times, the end result is we simply don't know WHOSE shoes they were, LE isn't saying, they COULD have been Marias, or Cesars or even Christinas. JMO

:seeya: [/*]
Did RS ever answer if the shoes had anything on them?

CanCan

03-15-2008, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Then she would have also had to take off her sports bra and shirt, which makes no sense? [/*]

Gotcha.

How come her bra and tee shirt were tossed into the fire pit---but not her panties, pants, or shoes????

jmo

hinman

03-15-2008, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

follow me- and forgive me in advance my computer is running slow so this may take awhile to post, what with quote, link, etc my system is tired ok- heres the link:

http://www.jdnews.com/attachments/jxqt6p-lauterbachautopsy1.pdf

The FIRST PARAGRAPH of the autopsy report, says the body is charred with cliothing on it consisting of...sports bra...etc

Thats where I got that from. :patriot: [/*]I wonder if the clothes were just thrown on top of her as some think whey they were not bagged with the other stuff?

Charlotte

03-15-2008, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CanCan

Gosh - I'm wondering, like others, if Maria had gone into labor at CL's - hence the missing panties and pants.

Picture CSL appearing during this - can you IMAGINE the RAGE at seeing your rival in labor (possibly) in your very own bed???!!!

jmo [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then she would have also had to take off her sports bra and shirt, which makes no sense? [/*]

I don't know if she was in labor or not, but why would a woman have to remove a sports bra and shirt in order to give birth?

CanCan

03-15-2008, 05:29 PM

:seeya: SAMI, You've got MAIL.

hinman

03-15-2008, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

UNDERSTAND when the ME talks about BAGS he doesn't mean BAGS taken from the grave, he means BAGS filled at the scene by forensics and baled with a number, contents documented and delivered to the ME. Thast why one bag (#8) contaned DIRT. Cesar certainly didn't fill a bad w/ dirt and toss it in. :rolleyes: The infant clothes were apparently put in w/ her and the conforter, and thats sentence there is JMO. Infant clothes were still in the bag they were packaged in and apparently not too damaged since ME could determine and stated they were size 0-3 months. [/*]Annie I wasn't meaning CL bagged the stuff I was thinking forensics might of bagged it as not to lose anything?

hinman

03-15-2008, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I think the mistake we make is trying to visualize 'clothes' -- but these were fragments of clothes only.

If she were laying face down, as reported, and if the front of the clothes had been burned into tiny fragments too small to remain intact, that could have left only fragments of her bra and shirt on her back side, but since she was face down, the fragments would by 'laying on top of her body', rather than being worn by her.

Doesn't mean she was naked when buried and burned, though.

JMO [/*]I agree and I posted that earlier. My point was if her clothes were jsut thrown in the pit I doubt that they would just be lying on top of her and if they were wouldn't forensics bag that as evidence not leave it on top of her?

Maka

03-15-2008, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by hinman
I wonder if the clothes were just thrown on top of her as some think whey they were not bagged with the other stuff? [/*]

I wish someone would interview him to clarify that. I was hoping he'd be more descriptive like...the body was clothed in charred remnants of a green knit shirt etc or charred remnants of a shirt and bra were observed in a manner consistent with being clothed....I agree with you .... "on top of a" could mean the clothes were not being worn and just placed on the body.

hinman

03-15-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

There is no much other way one can describe the subsequent reference I posted above about "ALONG WITH the clothing, was a baby clothing item."

Because we know full and well that ML's body was not wearing the baby clothing item. [/*]That bagged baby clothing to me means Maria had to had it on her ( not wearing it). Why else would it be in there?

Surely he didn't run out ot the car in the middle of diggin wholes and painting and tearing down fence and finding soemthign to drag the body and wrap it in to see if there were any baby items in the car.

CanCan

03-15-2008, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Maka

I wish someone would interview him to clarify that. I was hoping he'd be more descriptive like...the body was clothed in charred remnants of a green knit shirt etc or charred remnants of a shirt and bra were observed in a manner consistent with being clothed....I agree with you .... "on top of a" could mean the clothes were not being worn and just placed on the body. [/*]

Gosh darn right, Maka.

It seems like everytime we are provided information, we then must spend days trying to decipher what exactly the words actually mean.

Plain and simple poor communication skills, imo.

<The English teacher climbs off of her soap box.>

GentleBreeze

03-15-2008, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by bkwits
BEWARE THE IDES OF MARCH

March 15th is supposed to be an unlucky day. Let's hope it is unlucky for Cesar Laurean.

March 15th was the dayJulius Caesar was assassinated.

:flamemad: [/*]

Well I will admit I am superstitious about somethings. This was not one of them until......................today.

I now have one daughter right in the middle of a ferocious storm path and minutes ago one of our daughter's best friend called and said our daughter tried to separate two fighting dogs and has been rushed to the hospital because she got mauled in the processes.

Now I am just kidding about you jinxing me but sheesh now I am getting paranoid.

We are off to the hospital so I will try to come back on line sometime later.

Enjoy the discussions everyone! I will catch up when I return.

imoo

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Well I will admit I am superstitious about somethings. This was not one of them until......................today.

I now have one daughter right in the middle of a ferocious storm path and minutes ago one of our daughter's best friend called and said our daughter tried to separate two fighting dogs and has been rushed to the hospital because she got mauled in the processes.

Now I am just kidding about you jinxing me but sheesh now I am getting paranoid.

We are off to the hospital so I will try to come back on line sometime later.

Enjoy the discussions everyone! I will catch up when I return.

imoo [/*]

Gentle Breeze, this is terrible. So sorry your daughters are going through this and really hope that all will be okay there.

CanCan

03-15-2008, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Sami

:D

It's good to see you here, CanCan! :seeya: [/*]

:seeya: Thanks! You, too, Sami my dear!!

hinman

03-15-2008, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Well I will admit I am superstitious about somethings. This was not one of them until......................today.

I now have one daughter right in the middle of a ferocious storm path and minutes ago one of our daughter's best friend called and said our daughter tried to separate two fighting dogs and has been rushed to the hospital because she got mauled in the processes.

Now I am just kidding about you jinxing me but sheesh now I am getting paranoid.

We are off to the hospital so I will try to come back on line sometime later.

Enjoy the discussions everyone! I will catch up when I return.

imoo [/*]Thinking of you and sending prayers:rose:

I have lots of family in Atlanta my daughters dad lives there and she has been nerves all day ( I finally told her to come over and sit with me) cause she can't get a hold of him.

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by CanCan

Gosh darn right, Maka.

It seems like everytime we are provided information, we then must spend days trying to decipher what exactly the words actually mean.

Plain and simple poor communication skills, imo.

<The English teacher climbs off of her soap box.> [/*]

You are so right about that.

I'm one who thinks that "on top of the body" can be interpreted more than one way, certainly.

CanCan

03-15-2008, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by GentleBreeze

Well I will admit I am superstitious about somethings. This was not one of them until......................today.

I now have one daughter right in the middle of a ferocious storm path and minutes ago one of our daughter's best friend called and said our daughter tried to separate two fighting dogs and has been rushed to the hospital because she got mauled in the processes.

Now I am just kidding about you jinxing me but sheesh now I am getting paranoid.

We are off to the hospital so I will try to come back on line sometime later.

Enjoy the discussions everyone! I will catch up when I return.

imoo [/*]

Oh, GentleBreeze, prayers for both of your daughters...and for you. :rose:

IvySterling

03-15-2008, 06:09 PM

Maka

03-15-2008, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I'm wondering when the photographs were taken. Photos should have been taken of her clothed and unclothed, so if the photographer took photos just prior to the ME getting the body, that could be a reason clothes were removed and laying on top of her body (if she were clothed when found, that is).

I don't know the procedure for photographing, but I would imagine the autopsy was video taped.

I found this about the clothing of a burn victim, as it relates to the autopsy. It said the Investigator should be on the scene at the Autopsy (wonder if Sheriff Ed were there).

http://www.interfire.org/features/fatalities.asp [/*]

At the ME's office is where they would remove clothing....but the SBI and/or OCSO crime tech would take photos or video from start to finish of recovering her body. :( Glad nobody can get copies of those....

CanCan

03-15-2008, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Thanks, Annie! I would be doing much better were my head not banging with a migraine and had my toe nail polish not gotten bubbles from the rain when I got back to my house today.

Well, I disagree.

The ME dictates as he/she goes, as you know.

From the report:
................

The decedent is received face down in a body bag. She has been wrapped in a sheet.

The sheet is removed to reveal fragments of charred clothing on top of a charred and decomposed body.

The clothing
consist of a sports bra, medium size, and a green knit shirt.
This clothing is sealed in nylon bags for accelerant analysis.
...............

So, iow, the ME opens the bag, unwraps the sheet, the body is face down. On top of the body, first thing he/she sees and notates, are the charred fragments of clothes. He/she puts those in a bag for accelerant analysis. [/*]

....or..........the clothes had been put in a bag AT THE SCENE.

jmo

CanCan

03-15-2008, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by BarbraAllen

You are so right about that.

I'm one who thinks that "on top of the body" can be interpreted more than one way, certainly. [/*]

ABSOLUTELY more than one way to interpret that.

jmo

Maka

03-15-2008, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by CanCan

Gosh darn right, Maka.

It seems like everytime we are provided information, we then must spend days trying to decipher what exactly the words actually mean.

Plain and simple poor communication skills, imo.

<The English teacher climbs off of her soap box.> [/*]

True dat! It happens a lot in autopsy reports.
(Ack! Please, don't give me bad marks! I try, but......I'm addicted to incorrect usage of ellipses)

Maka

03-15-2008, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

SBI would take pictures on the scene and the ME's would take photo's during the autopsy. There are a lot of pictures.
On the scene she would not be undressed. Not SB. The investigators handling the case would be there, maybe.

jmoo [/*]

Righty oh.

(you posted while I was typing)

Howiefan

03-15-2008, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by BarbraAllen

You are so right about that.

I'm one who thinks that "on top of the body" can be interpreted more than one way, certainly. [/*]
I totally agree.. I also find it strange that one of the question that nuttin sent to CS and his reply to it was
"Q & A 25) In Maria's ATM photo, she's wearing a Dayton sweatshirt---did she have this on when her body was recovered? The clothing that she was wearing is something that will be admitted at trial."
well if this is the case why are we seeing the autopsy report before the trial or am I totally off???

CanCan

03-15-2008, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Maka

True dat! It happens a lot in autopsy reports.
(Ack! Please, don't give me bad marks! I try, but......I'm addicted to incorrect usage of ellipses) [/*]

HAHAHAHA..........I use 'em all the time myself.......so don't you worry!!!! Henry and I are thinking of starting a club...........you can join too!!! :D

CanCan

03-15-2008, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I've been told I use Oxymorons -- can I join your club, too? :D [/*]

:D Sure, Sami! We'll even give you a discount on your dues!!

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan

I totally agree.. I also find it strange that one of the question that nuttin sent to CS and his reply to it was
"Q & A 25) In Maria's ATM photo, she's wearing a Dayton sweatshirt---did she have this on when her body was recovered? The clothing that she was wearing is something that will be admitted at trial."
well if this is the case why are we seeing the autopsy report before the trial or am I totally off??? [/*]

I feel sure that both the DA and OCSD have seen the report and most likely the DA or a combo of the DA and OCSD determined that releasing the autopsy report wouldn't be determinal to their case in chief.

If they felt it would be, I tend to think either of those agencies (more likely the DA) would have asked for the report to be sealed and not allowed to be seen until trial.

JMO

Howiefan

03-15-2008, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Sami

There are few facts we come away from the autopsy report with.

I'm just so disappointed that there wasn't more factual evidence of a blunt object being used. I guess Cesar got what he wanted by getting almost a month to desecrate the bodies.

He was able to keep the brain from being forensically analyzed as to hemorhaging -- by his constant burning enhancing the body's decomposition. :mad:

JMO [/*]

how true Sami..this is just so sick..

Howiefan

03-15-2008, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I feel sure that both the DA and OCSD have seen the report and most likely the DA or a combo of the DA and OCSD determined that releasing the autopsy report wouldn't be determinal to their case in chief.

If they felt it would be, I tend to think either of those agencies (more likely the DA) would have asked for the report to be sealed and not allowed to be seen until trial.

JMO [/*]
thanks nuttin for dustbusting me off..:D

Cardinal

03-15-2008, 06:32 PM

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Right. [/*]

That is correct because the SBI and/or OCSD would never want to mess up any of the forensic evidence.

JMO

hinman

03-15-2008, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

No, I don't think so, Can.

Because they were not in one of the 9 (8) bags that LE put in the body bag. [/*]That tends to make me think maybe they were burned our well I don't know something to the body.

CanCan

03-15-2008, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

No, I don't think so, Can.

Because they were not in one of the 9 (8) bags that LE put in the body bag. [/*]

But isn't that almost non-SOP??

Wouldn't they want to place the clothes in a bag to preserve any evidence?

jmo

hinman

03-15-2008, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by CanCan

But isn't that almost non-SOP??

Wouldn't they want to place the clothes in a bag to preserve any evidence?

jmo [/*]Oh Can Can it is good to see you.

That is a point I have been trying to make and I don't think I am saying it right,

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan

thanks nuttin for dustbusting me off..:D [/*]

Incoming Howiefan, incoming! ;)

hinman

03-15-2008, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Right, we know ML was not wearing the baby clothing item in a melted plastic bag. That was on top of the body, along with ML's fragments of bra and top. [/*]OK so do you think Maria had that item on her when she was in that garage before the murder happened.

IvySterling

03-15-2008, 06:45 PM

Just got this, anyone else get it?

Details about fetus unknown
Autopsy on pregnant Marine can't determine child's gender, injuries
JERRY ALLEGOOD
(Raleigh) News & Observer

An autopsy on a pregnant Marine killed in Jacksonville in December could not determine the gender or injuries of her unborn child, said a report released Friday.

The report by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Chapel Hill said the body of Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach was badly burned and decomposed when an autopsy was performed Jan. 14. Lauterbach had been missing about a month when her body was found in a grave in the backyard of a fellow Marine, Cpl. Cesar Laurean, who has been charged with murdering her.
~SNIP
Information on DNA samples taken from the bodies was not available. District Attorney Dewey Hudson, chief state prosecutor in Onslow County, said the military is conducting DNA tests to determine the father of Lauterbach's unborn child.

http://www.charlotte.com/local/story/537746.html

CanCan

03-15-2008, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by hinman
Oh Can Can it is good to see you.

That is a point I have been trying to make and I don't think I am saying it right, [/*]

Hi, hinman. So very good to see you, too. :seeya:

I am searching back for the exact wording of the autopsy report, because the way I read it, the clothes were already in a bag when the ME opened up the sheet in his office. I'm goin' hunting....unless JAS can kindly produce that portion of the report for us again??!!

jmo

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 06:47 PM

If anyone has the photos that were taken at the scene, you will see there was a photographer taking pictures (this person was from either agency SBI/OCSD and I can't remember which) and most likely they are for their use and are in Maria's file--that's a given. Plus they need those to show how her body was found, what type of shallow grave, etc.

It is SOP for the ME to photograph at every autopsy. There's just no getting around that. How do you think Lee, Baden, Wecht or any other forensic person/ME, who aren't generally present at the autopsies, can make their determinations? They look at slides, photographs, etc.

JMO

hinman

03-15-2008, 06:47 PM

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by CanCan

Hi, hinman. So very good to see you, too. :seeya:

I am searching back for the exact wording of the autopsy report, because the way I read it, the clothes were already in a bag when the ME opened up the sheet in his office. I'm goin' hunting....unless JAS can kindly produce that portion of the report for us again??!!

jmo [/*]

I just re-read that sentence up thread, and now I think the clothing was already in a bag, placed there by LE.

(But I'm not an English teacher so don't rely on my interpretation!)

Edited to add: I think maybe the baby item was in the store bag and had been put in the grave with Maria. But seems like LE would have had to collect those clothing fragments before moving her body because they would not have stayed on, even in the process of wrapping her in the sheet.

donna

03-15-2008, 06:49 PM

Hello, everyone!
We had a tremendous thunderstorm here last night with hail and strong winds. The hail went on for at least 15 minutes! One of the neighbors tree limbs broke off into my yard. The person who does my lawn just left. No other damage, thank goodness!

One of my first questions concerning the autopsy reports was where was Maria's pants - yesterday at 5:55 PM.
IMO, Maria would probably have been wearing some sort of sweatpants maybe with a draw string with her Dayton sweatshirt. I tend to think that these 2 items were not on her body when CAL put her in the firepit. CP stated that all of Maria belongings had not been located, IIRC. Where are they?

I have read and caught up with the posts except for the last few.

No way Christina did not know a comforter and sheet were missing. I am not sure of just how involved CSL was in the murder, but I am, IMO, sure she had to be involved in the coverup of the crime scene. Even when you have an old comforter, you know you have it. I had one I gave to my brother to cushion a gun cabinet he was moving in his truck. I tend to think that the sheet and comforter was on the bed in their bedroom.

I am just sick about all of this all over again.
I in no way think that Maria went over to CAL's house for sex.

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by hinman
I would say that is why Marias family chose to keep the babys gender as male. [/*]

And, Maria had said she was going to call the baby Gabriel Joseph, isn't that correct? So I would imagine the family would go by that as well.

hinman

03-15-2008, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by BarbraAllen

And, Maria had said she was going to call the baby Gabriel Joseph, isn't that correct? So I would imagine the family would go by that as well. [/*]yup Barbra. :rose:

donna

03-15-2008, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by CanCan

Oh, GentleBreeze, prayers for both of your daughters...and for you. :rose: [/*]

Me too, GB! Let us know something, please!

Charlotte

03-15-2008, 06:54 PM

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling
Just got this, anyone else get it?

Details about fetus unknown
Autopsy on pregnant Marine can't determine child's gender, injuries
JERRY ALLEGOOD
(Raleigh) News & Observer

An autopsy on a pregnant Marine killed in Jacksonville in December could not determine the gender or injuries of her unborn child, said a report released Friday.

The report by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Chapel Hill said the body of Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach was badly burned and decomposed when an autopsy was performed Jan. 14. Lauterbach had been missing about a month when her body was found in a grave in the backyard of a fellow Marine, Cpl. Cesar Laurean, who has been charged with murdering her.
~SNIP
Information on DNA samples taken from the bodies was not available. District Attorney Dewey Hudson, chief state prosecutor in Onslow County, said the military is conducting DNA tests to determine the father of Lauterbach's unborn child.

http://www.charlotte.com/local/story/537746.html [/*]

Hiya Ivy!

Here's the link to the N&O article:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1001103.html

And I notice that Jerry Allegood is now posting this as fact:

Investigators recovered a comforter, sheet and baby clothing...

This what it says in the autopsy report: The decedent is received face down in a body bag. She has been wrapped in a sheet.
The sheet is removed...

As we have discussed here, there was no sheet recovered with her body. The sheet was placed over her before she was placed in the body bag, didn't we discuss this or did I dream we did?

JMO

CanCan

03-15-2008, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by BarbraAllen

I just re-read that sentence up thread, and now I think the clothing was already in a bag, placed there by LE.

(But I'm not an English teacher so don't rely on my interpretation!)

Edited to add: I think maybe the baby item was in the store bag and had been put in the grave with Maria. But seems like LE would have had to collect those clothing fragments before moving her body because they would not have stayed on, even in the process of wrapping her in the sheet. [/*]

Exactly my thoughts, Barbra.

(You get an "A"!)

jmo

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by donna

Me too, GB! Let us know something, please! [/*]

YES Ocean please let us know something!!

Hiya donna! Hope your weather is getting better.

IvySterling

03-15-2008, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Hiya Ivy!

Here's the link to the N&O article:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1001103.html

And I notice that Jerry Allegood is now posting this as fact:

Investigators recovered a comforter, sheet and baby clothing...

This what it says in the autopsy report: The decedent is received face down in a body bag. She has been wrapped in a sheet.
The sheet is removed...

As we have discussed here, there was no sheet recovered with her body. The sheet was placed over her before she was placed in the body bag, didn't we discuss this or did I dream we did?

JMO [/*]
Thanks for the link nuttin!

donna

03-15-2008, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Yikes, nuttin.

Now I have to do a 180 AGAIN?????

So they did recover the sheet, then.

Wow.

Unless this guy is wrong. [/*]

Hi, Jas.!
I am under the impression that there was a sheet and comforter that Maria and Gabriel were wrapped in, and that Maria's head was not wrapped in them.

bkwits

03-15-2008, 07:02 PM

Hi everyone,

I just got back from the walk-in clinic and the pharmacy. It's official, I have pneumonia. I hope I don't have to go to the hospital. But I'll be lying in bed with the lap top on my stomach. If I say something crazy, chalk it up to the illness.

:seeya:

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Yikes, nuttin.

Now I have to do a 180 AGAIN?????

So they did recover the sheet, then.

Wow.

Unless this guy is wrong. [/*]

No Allegood has to be wrong.

The autopsy report states this:

The decedent is received face down in a body bag. She has been wrapped in a sheet.
The sheet is removed...

donna

03-15-2008, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

YES Ocean please let us know something!!

Hiya donna! Hope your weather is getting better. [/*]

Hi, nuttin, and thanks! It was all over in a couple of hours except for the cleanup! It was last night!

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by bkwits
Hi everyone,

I just got back from the walk-in clinic and the pharmacy. It's official, I have pneumonia. I hope I don't have to go to the hospital. But I'll be lying in bed with the lap top on my stomach. If I say something crazy, chalk it up to the illness.

:seeya: [/*]

I'm sorry bkwits! I was afraid your flu would turn into pneumonia just like mine did. I hope you don't have to go in the hospital either.

Besides antibotics, did they give you an nebulizer or an inhaler to help you breathe?

:rose: for bk!

donna

03-15-2008, 07:05 PM

hinman

03-15-2008, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by donna

Hi, Jas.!
I am under the impression that there was a sheet and comforter that Maria and Gabriel were wrapped in, and that Maria's head was not wrapped in them. [/*]Wouldn't the comforter be on top? Or do you think the sheet was on top?

Not sure if it would matter but I don't know if a sheet would stay on top of the comforter I think it would make it harder to drag.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Let's ask Allegood.

I think he's wrong, too. [/*]

I've fired an email off to Allegood.

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

<snip>

From the report:
................

The decedent is received face down in a body bag. She has been wrapped in a sheet.

The sheet is removed to reveal fragments of charred clothing on top of a charred and decomposed body.

The clothing
consist of a sports bra, medium size, and a green knit shirt.
This clothing is sealed in nylon bags for accelerant analysis.
...............

So, iow, the ME opens the bag, unwraps the sheet, the body is face down. On top of the body, first thing he/she sees and notates, are the charred fragments of clothes. He/she puts those in a bag for accelerant analysis. [/*]

"This clothing is sealed in nylon bags for accelerant analysis" isn't describing an action of the ME........it's describing the state of the body as it is received in the ME's office.

So I stand by my first impression: the clothes were bagged at the scene by the CSI folks.

jmo

:o

hinman

03-15-2008, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by bkwits
Hi everyone,

I just got back from the walk-in clinic and the pharmacy. It's official, I have pneumonia. I hope I don't have to go to the hospital. But I'll be lying in bed with the lap top on my stomach. If I say something crazy, chalk it up to the illness.

:seeya: [/*]oh bk take care of yourself I just got over all of that it took me a while to recover. I couldn't even post for awhile. I was wondering if you had pneumonia.

:rose:

StickyBeak

03-15-2008, 07:08 PM

Please excuse my interjection, I have not been up to date with all of you fine people, but, I just keep thinking Maria was in labor when she went to CL house. I read the ME report, no pants or panties which could have disintergrated due to heat and the other thing that really bothered me was "babys hand",. I shudder and cringe to think Maria went to CL after her call to her mother stating I am having contractions, panicked and called CL.
He met her at bus station, brought her to his house. IIRC, Sheriff Ed stated blood was all over the house. Could she possibly have gone into labor and her water broke, therfore removing her lower garments.

Sorry if I am late on this analogy which may have been discussed.
JMO, or just my thoughts.

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:11 PM

donna

03-15-2008, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by hinman
Wouldn't the comforter be on top? Or do you think the sheet was on top?

Not sure if it would matter but I don't know if a sheet would stay on top of the comforter I think it would make it harder to drag. [/*]

Hi, hinman!

Now I do not even know! Maybe sheet first, then comforter? If you were going to grab a comforter off of the bed, the top sheet could come off with it.

It is certainly not funny, but I am sure someone will want to know if the sheet was flat or fitted!

FWIW, I do not think the sheet was on top of the comforter. Could everything in this case be any more confusing than it already is?

donna

03-15-2008, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I've fired an email off to Allegood. [/*]

Thanks, nuttin! I hope he will explain his words!

hinman

03-15-2008, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by donna

Hi, hinman!

Now I do not even know! Maybe sheet first, then comforter? If you were going to grab a comforter off of the bed, the top sheet could come off with it.

It is certainly not funny, but I am sure someone will want to know if the sheet was flat or fitted!

FWIW, I do not think the sheet was on top of the comforter. Could everything in this case be any more confusing than it already is? [/*]I know donna it is very confusing. The autopsy says her body was wrapped in the comforter I don't think it says in the sheet that is why I was wondering because that would mean the sheet would of been on top the comforter or LE placed the sheet there when they removed her body which is the way I am leaning.

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by bkwits
Hi everyone,

I just got back from the walk-in clinic and the pharmacy. It's official, I have pneumonia. I hope I don't have to go to the hospital. But I'll be lying in bed with the lap top on my stomach. If I say something crazy, chalk it up to the illness.

:seeya: [/*]

Oh, you poor dear, bkwits. Nothing like pneumonia to knock a person flat.

(I better wear a mask when I'm around you. I'm leaving for Austria next Saturday.......can't get sick!)

hinman

03-15-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Thanks, nuttin!

But, guess what? Allegood is CORRECT.

Look at this part of the report:

The following items are preserved as evidence
The following materials are preserved as evidence: all of the clothing, preserved in nylon bags for volatile analysis, the comforter and sheet, preserved for volatile analysis [/*]Jas what does volatile mean? Thanks

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:19 PM

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by hinman
Jas what does volatile mean? Thanks [/*]

Lighter fluid, diesel, gas...those are a few examples of volatile substances.

IOW something that helped start the fire.

bkwits

03-15-2008, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I'm sorry bkwits! I was afraid your flu would turn into pneumonia just like mine did. I hope you don't have to go in the hospital either.

Besides antibotics, did they give you an nebulizer or an inhaler to help you breathe?

:rose: for bk! [/*]

Yes, I got an inhaler and some expensive antibiotics. I'm glad someone warned on here how expensive the medicine is. My bill was $90, and I have insurance for medicine. The reg. price of the antibiotic is $140 for 10 pills.

It better work.

donna

03-15-2008, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by hinman
I know donna it is very confusing. The autopsy says her body was wrapped in the comforter I don't think it says in the sheet that is why I was wondering because that would mean the sheet would of been on top the comforter or LE placed the sheet there when they removed her body which is the way I am leaning. [/*]

:( ... I know, hinman. LE probably would have had to roll Maria's body onto a clean sheet so as to remove it from the pit. It appears in the video that they were holding the sheet above Maria's head as they were moving toward the ambulance at the scene. I think this is where the sheet confusion is coming in.

I feel the sheet from the house was inside the comforter and all but Maria's head was rolled up in that comforter and sheet.

Clear as mud, isn't it?

hinman

03-15-2008, 07:22 PM

Thanks Jas and nuttin. I thought that is what it was but was not 100% positive. Thought I better ask.

bkwits

03-15-2008, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by CanCan

Oh, you poor dear, bkwits. Nothing like pneumonia to knock a person flat.

(I better wear a mask when I'm around you. I'm leaving for Austria next Saturday.......can't get sick!) [/*]

I'll try not to breathe on the keyboard. ;)

donna

03-15-2008, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by bkwits

I'll try not to breathe on the keyboard. ;) [/*]

:) .... Thanks, bkwits! Had it once this year, don't want it again!

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Sami

The sheet was probably used to preserve any forensic evidence that might come off the body in transit -- so OF COURSE it would be sent for analysis.

The way the report is presented shows that the SHEET is associated with BODY BAG, and not with the charred remnants from the pit:

Right after this sentence, which is set apart from the rest by double spacing, the report starts to list what was inside the body bag/sheet:

It is only much later that the report states, under a separate heading, that everything associated with the body bag, sheet included, was sent for analysis.

[/*]

Sami, this is my thinking, too..........that the sheet is associated with the body bag.........probably not from the house, but provided to preserve evidence, SOP, by the CSI crew.

jmo

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by donna

You take good care of yourself, bkwits!

:rose: [/*]

Yes, bkwits, take care of yourself and I hope you'll recover very soon!

Lynn Gweeny

03-15-2008, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Couldn't that be because the sheet came into direct contact with the comforter and the other items they wanted tested for volative substances?

And I'm waiting to see if he answers me. [/*]

The clean white sheet (or plastic equivalent) is required to wrap a body before placing it in a body bag and because of that, any trace evidence, including volative substances can be transferred. IMO, the sheet being referenced in the Autopsy Report is the white sheet.

Reading this death protocol link, it does state that ...

E. The removal of the body shall be directed by the Coroner and/or his representative and shall be done so in a manner prescribed by the Coroner’s Office procedures, which include, but are not limited to the removal of the body placed on either a plastic or a white cloth sheet and to be sealed in a body bag. This does not preclude the law nforcemcnt agency to examine and photograph all evidence which is disclosed by movement of the body, however, it will not allow any evidence to be removed from the body until such time at the morgue, unless approved by the Coroner.

http://www.ilcoroners.org/deathprotocol.htm

If you view the video of LE removing the remains, she is already clothed in the white sheet as they bring her up out of the firepit.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E9zBoX90KgU

ETA ~ Sami's post from this morning regarding the 'white sheet'.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?postid=11381475#post11381475

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:32 PM

Maka

03-15-2008, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by StickyBeak
Please excuse my interjection, I have not been up to date with all of you fine people, but, I just keep thinking Maria was in labor when she went to CL house. I read the ME report, no pants or panties which could have disintergrated due to heat and the other thing that really bothered me was "babys hand",. I shudder and cringe to think Maria went to CL after her call to her mother stating I am having contractions, panicked and called CL.
He met her at bus station, brought her to his house. IIRC, Sheriff Ed stated blood was all over the house. Could she possibly have gone into labor and her water broke, therfore removing her lower garments.

Sorry if I am late on this analogy which may have been discussed.
JMO, or just my thoughts. [/*]

Makes perfect sense she might have gone into labor at his house and the lower garments were off due to that.

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

Can--the ME put the clothes in bags to test for accelerant. They did not come in a bag.

From the report:

The sheet is removed to reveal fragments of charred clothing on top of a charred and decomposed body. The clothing
consist of a sports bra, medium size, and a green knit shirt. This clothing is sealed in nylon bags for accelerant analysis.
The body is also wrapped in a partially charred comforter. It, too, is preserved in a nylon bag. Along with the clothing,
there is a melted plastic bag that contains an item of baby clothing. There is a label "Size 0-3 months." [/*]

Well, now, reading all this again I may have to revise my opinion once again. Because by the ME writing "the body IS also wrapped in a partially charred comforter..." then I have to look at the "is sealed in nylon bags" again. If the body is wrapped in the comforter as he describes, then he'd have to remove the comforter to preserve it in the bag. And logically he would mean the same thing regarding the other clothes.

Thank you, JAS for posting those sentences all together; I had not gone back to the actual report to look at the sense of the sentences (if that makes sense.)

CanCan I may have just lost my "A". Maybe some remedial courses are in my future!

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Please don't talk to me, CanCan -- I'm too jealous that you're going to Austria!!!!

JK -- you're so lucky, my Friend! :beer: [/*]

:beer: Thanks, my friend! I feel VERY lucky indeed!!

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:36 PM

In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9zBoX90KgU&feature=related (go to the :55 in the video and beyond)

If that's the sheet that is being referred to, I still say it is too pristine and white to be a sheet recovered with her body---especially since the comforter was partially charred. If the comforter was charred, why was the sheet not charred any?

Surely the ME would have made mention if the sheet was charred too.

Lynn Gweeny

03-15-2008, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

But it would not be kept as EVIDENCE.

Just like the body bag was neither tested nor kept as evidence. [/*]

IMO, the sheet would and should be kept as evidence in case anything from the body is transferred to it. In past years, not much care was given to that sheet, and it was fodder for defense attorneys to question whether vital evidence that could have possibly been transferred to that sheet could have been exculpatory for their client. I think that's why new protocols were put in place. JMO

baywench

03-15-2008, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by Babes
Question:

If Maria was brought by CL to his house by Force - then why bring Maria to his house if Christina can be there anytime? Why not bring her to the forest and kill her there and bury the body somewhere and not on his own backyard? [/*]

I am dutifiully trying to catch up and way back here but....exactly! If this was planned down to writing fake notes, taking some of her belongings making her go to the ATM and buy a bus ticket why in the world would he kill her in his house, bury her in his backyard, throw the cell phone out on the base? Geez IMO

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by BarbraAllen

Well, now, reading all this again I may have to revise my opinion once again. Because by the ME writing "the body IS also wrapped in a partially charred comforter..." then I have to look at the "is sealed in nylon bags" again. If the body is wrapped in the comforter as he describes, then he'd have to remove the comforter to preserve it in the bag. And logically he would mean the same thing regarding the other clothes.

Thank you, JAS for posting those sentences all together; I had not gone back to the actual report to look at the sense of the sentences (if that makes sense.)

CanCan I may have just lost my "A". Maybe some remedial courses are in my future! [/*]

HAHAHA Barbra....I'll be in the seat right next to you.......I hadn't gone back to the actual report, either. I, too, am revising my stand.

:)

hinman

03-15-2008, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9zBoX90KgU&feature=related (go to the :55 in the video and beyond)

If that's the sheet that is being referred to, I still say it is too pristine and white to be a sheet recovered with her body---especially since the comforter was partially charred. If the comforter was charred, why was the sheet not charred any?

Surely the ME would have made mention if the sheet was charred too. [/*]I agree because the sheet was ontop of the comforter there is no way it oculd not be charged also.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny

The clean white sheet (or plastic equivalent) is required to wrap a body before placing it in a body bag and because of that, any trace evidence, including volative substances can be transferred. IMO, the sheet being referenced in the Autopsy Report is the white sheet.

Reading this death protocol link, it does state that ...

E. The removal of the body shall be directed by the Coroner and/or his representative and shall be done so in a manner prescribed by the Coroner’s Office procedures, which include, but are not limited to the removal of the body placed on either a plastic or a white cloth sheet and to be sealed in a body bag. This does not preclude the law nforcemcnt agency to examine and photograph all evidence which is disclosed by movement of the body, however, it will not allow any evidence to be removed from the body until such time at the morgue, unless approved by the Coroner.

http://www.ilcoroners.org/deathprotocol.htm

If you view the video of LE removing the remains, she is already clothed in the white sheet as they bring her up out of the firepit.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E9zBoX90KgU

ETA ~ Sami's post from this morning regarding the 'white sheet'.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?postid=11381475#post11381475 [/*]

Thanks again Lynn. I just posted the same link and I stated how pristine or white the sheet looked to have been recovered with her body, especially since the comforter was partially charred.

Thanks again Lynn!

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by bkwits

I'll try not to breathe on the keyboard. ;) [/*]

:lol: I appreciate it, bkwits!!!

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 07:43 PM

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by CanCan

Hang on.......this'll teach me not to read the thread backwards LOL. So the sheet WAS from the house.

OK. but I still say ML was wrapped in it to preserve evidence.

jmo [/*]

I don't think the sheet came from the house.

Go downthread and watch the link from youtube that's been posted.

If the ME is referring to the white sheet that is seen over her body, it is too WHITE and pristine looking to have been recovered from the shallow grave.

Especially considering the comforter was partially charred. If the comforter was partially charred, why isn't the sheet charred some, even partially?

Maka

03-15-2008, 07:46 PM

Gosh ... and he never describes exactly what he means by "on top" ...... was she prone or supine when he saw the fragments?

He doesn't note at what point he turns the body.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny

IMO, the sheet would and should be kept as evidence in case anything from the body is transferred to it. In past years, not much care was given to that sheet, and it was fodder for defense attorneys to question whether vital evidence that could have possibly been transferred to that sheet could have been exculpatory for their client. I think that's why new protocols were put in place. JMO [/*]

ITA Lynn!

Didn't the protocols changes occur after or during OJ?

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

I don't know how he received it but she was laying on her right side face down in the grave before being removed. IMO I am not going to go look for a link. [/*]

I happen to have that link where SB says how she was found in the shallow grave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9zBoX90KgU&feature=related

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I don't think the sheet came from the house.

Go downthread and watch the link from youtube that's been posted.

If the ME is referring to the white sheet that is seen over her body, it is too WHITE and pristine looking to have been recovered from the shallow grave.

Especially considering the comforter was partially charred. If the comforter was partially charred, why isn't the sheet charred some, even partially? [/*]

You got that right, nuttin. Thanks for the tip!!

Back to my original opinion.

I'm getting vertigo, here.

That sheet was clearly provided, SOP, by the CSI crew.

jmo

CanCan

03-15-2008, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Oh, CanCan, you silly............ everyone knows you just spead plastic wrap across your keyboard and you won't catch ANYTHING other posters might have! LOL/ j/k AB [/*]

:lol: at AnnieBean!

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Sami

During O.J.'s trial, they had it 'Wong'. :D [/*]

That's what I Whought. :D

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Sami

LE sometimes uses only a body bag, but the condition of the decomposing bodies and the charred effect, made it necessary for them to use a sheet, too, to conserve any evidence that was naturally going to fall off in transit. MO

Since the sheet was used to conserve evidence, it was sent for analysis, not the body bag.

Look at the report as I described it above and you'll see that the sheet is set apart as being part of the body bag -- even a novice could read that, imo, but I'm sure all of LE and the medical experts understood it, as it is set up separate by the report.

MO [/*]

And now I am coming back to this way of thinking. Obviously all of you have read this so much more thoroughly than I did. This is what I've always so admired about the posters on this board, the way they extensively research and study these things.

(I'm afraid not only will I lose my A, but am on the way to a failing grade.)

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:55 PM

Those of us in Eastern NC, be on the watch out, we have some UGLY weather headed this way.

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S
Mimi--thx for your wonderful explanations upthread! [/*]

Copying JAS's post here because I also wanted to say this, Mimi. I meant to post earlier but have been back and forth from the thread today and am reading and posting sporadically.

But, thank you, Mimi!

Howiefan

03-15-2008, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Those of us in Eastern NC, be on the watch out, we have some UGLY weather headed this way. [/*]
stay safe nuttin:rose:

hinman

03-15-2008, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Those of us in Eastern NC, be on the watch out, we have some UGLY weather headed this way. [/*]:rose: Stay safe.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 07:59 PM

I found this while perusing the N&O:

Hudson said he was satisfied with the Marine Corps investigation.

It's the last sentence in this article: Letter looks at case of Marine Congressman asks about Lauterbach

http://www.newsobserver.com/2768/story/996073.html

hinman

03-15-2008, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
I found this while perusing the N&O:

Hudson said he was satisfied with the Marine Corps investigation.

It's the last sentence in this article: Letter looks at case of Marine Congressman asks about Lauterbach

http://www.newsobserver.com/2768/story/996073.html [/*]Thanks,
It says the Marine Corp will respond to the letter.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 08:02 PM

Howie and hinman, I promise I will try to and I do know where to get if it's gets really bad. Thanks!

Tornado watch until 1am, yikes! I can handle hurricanes but not tornadoes.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nuttintodo
Those of us in Eastern NC, be on the watch out, we have some UGLY weather headed this way. [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been watching weather channel for hours- please be careful and just send it on outshore, not northeast, please!!!:rose: [/*]

I will blow with all my might AB! And I'll try to get the rest of the family to blow too.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by hinman
Thanks,
It says the Marine Corp will respond to the letter. [/*]

As they should. It may take the Marine Corps a while but they will respond, especially to a congressman on the armed services committee.

JMO

donna

03-15-2008, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Howie and hinman, I promise I will try to and I do know where to get if it's gets really bad. Thanks!

Tornado watch until 1am, yikes! I can handle hurricanes but not tornadoes. [/*]

Stay safe, nuttin! Keep us posted - pun intended!

My nephew is 65 miles from Atlanta. He lost part of the roof of the barn last night. Horses were all in the pasture and were fine!
Nother round this afternoon.

Batten down the hatches!

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 08:13 PM

Okay here's something else for us to ponder on.

Wonder if Maria's underwear and pants consisted mainly of polyester and they simply melted away due to the heat and perhaps added to the charring?

donna

03-15-2008, 08:15 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sami

I'm SO glad you're okay, donna. :seeya:

We had tornado warnings here about an hour ago, but it looks better now. [/*][/QUOTE

:) ...... good, hunman! I have a very healthy respect for weather!

Glad your weather is better now!

Going to take my mother her favorite dinner now! See you all later!

:seeya:

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Howie and hinman, I promise I will try to and I do know where to get if it's gets really bad. Thanks!

Tornado watch until 1am, yikes! I can handle hurricanes but not tornadoes. [/*]

Moved thru here pretty quickly, but then again everything is now moving northeasterly and avoiding us all together.

Stay safe!

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Okay here's something else for us to ponder on.

Wonder if Maria's underwear and pants consisted mainly of polyester and they simply melted away due to the heat and perhaps added to the charring? [/*]

But if the shirt was knit, it would be polyester (or at least a blend) too. And if the underwear had an elastic band.....I mean they're not even saying traces of anything else.

BRB, gone to find DD's sports bra. I'm sure she'll appreciate me telling ya'll that!

IvySterling

03-15-2008, 08:18 PM

hinman

03-15-2008, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Sumter is 30 miles from here. [/*]:eek: be careful.

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Sami

Most definitely I think you're right, nuttin.

The concentration of the accelerant and fire was in the lower area. JMO [/*]

What accelerant?

hinman

03-15-2008, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean
Not even raining here yet. [/*]I got darn snow and it was 65 yeesterday. :mad:

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:23 PM

Question:

Was the sequence of layers like this:

Body>Comforter>clothing>sheet?

Or

Body>clothing(including baby clothing)>comforter>sheet?

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Could you please set it on fire, too? Cos I am thinking, sports bras have no clips or hooks or wires, so if its burned up sufficiently, it wouldn't even be detectable as a "sports bra" would it? I mean mine are all cotton/poly and some elastic. [/*]

Lycra to be exact. At least in hers. Sweat pants are 70% cotton and 30% polyester.

Mimi428

03-15-2008, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Maka
Gosh ... and he never describes exactly what he means by "on top" ...... was she prone or supine when he saw the fragments?

He doesn't note at what point he turns the body. [/*]

I know what you mean. There are some descriptions that leave too much leeway for me.

If early reports were accurate, her body position when found was lying on her right side, with her face down.

Notice that in the autopsy report, the ME specifically notated the anterior AND posterior of the left thigh was charred - IOW, front & back. No notation of that sort was made for the right thigh.

If you lie on your right side, it is not difficult for the front & back of your left thigh to be exposed to fire from burning fence slats.

If she had been discovered with her entire body prone, we would expect to read about charring of the posterior of BOTH her thighs. And if her body had been placed in a supine position, the charring would have been on the anterior of both her thighs.

JMO

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:26 PM

hinman

03-15-2008, 08:27 PM

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Sami

I doubt we'll know if and what was used until trial, but they must know that something was used, since they're testing for volatile accelerant. JMO [/*]

They would test anyway if fire is involved.

JMO 'cause I don't want to have to scan and upload my Fire Safety Certificate from 3rd grade. :D

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

It could even be:
body-->clothing incl baby clothing--->bedsheet from Cesars home--->comforter---->coroners office sheet--->coroners office bag. [/*]

You know, that little piece of information would be so helpful.

:D

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by old_lady

But there was nothing there. No pants, no underware, no shoes. Something would have been left.:shrug:

jmoo [/*]

That's what I'm saying. What are the burn rates for these materials?

Or are ya'll gonna make me set my house on fire just to see what's left?

BarbraAllen

03-15-2008, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Okay here's something else for us to ponder on.

Wonder if Maria's underwear and pants consisted mainly of polyester and they simply melted away due to the heat and perhaps added to the charring? [/*]

Now that's an interesting thought. It had not even come in to my mind that polyester melts. You certainly could be right in my opinion.

CANDYKISSES

03-15-2008, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

They would test anyway if fire is involved.

JMO 'cause I don't want to have to scan and upload my Fire Safety Certificate from 3rd grade. :D [/*]

That's pretty much SOP for anything involving FIRE IMO. :cool:

But I didn't see anything confirming an accelerant in the papers. Maybe I missed it. :confused:

JMO

*********PM CHECK PLEASE********

StickyBeak

03-15-2008, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by Maka

Makes perfect sense she might have gone into labor at his house and the lower garments were off due to that. [/*]

The ME report, if body was received in an upside down position, in a body bag with white sheet cover which they removed; stands to reason any particles would have dropped while turning her over. The absense of any lower charred fragments of clothing leads me to believe, there was none.

Wrapping her in a quilt, which was found at death scene could have come from CL and Xtrina's bed. IMO. If Laurean was playing the role to pasify Maria, if she did indeed call him to advise, Baby on the way, he could have easily said meet me at the bus station, I will pick you up, leave your car there. I have a car seat, you need an outfit to bring baby home in, but, The bus ticket?

Diden't CL do basic training in Texas? :chicken:

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by hinman
Thanks,
It says the Marine Corp will respond to the letter. [/*]

They should. But I don't agree with a congress(person) going on a fishing expedition just to garner votes. Which, IMO, is about what this amounts to.

JMO though and all that.

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

No but I could be coerced into sacrificing one of my old sports bras tomorrow in the interest of science and will burn it up to see what happens.
I just got 3 new bras this week so I will do the sacrifice happily!! [/*]

Okay, but take lots of pictures. You may need two old sports bras. On one, use an accelerant. On the other, just burn it. Note the burn times and when the fire goes out, note what's left.

(Burning bras really takes us back doesn't it? :D )

CANDYKISSES

03-15-2008, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

They should. But I don't agree with a congress(person) going on a fishing expedition just to garner votes. Which, IMO, is about what this amounts to.

JMO though and all that. [/*]

Well, you know it's that time of year. I remember Kucinich trying to get the feds to do something on a suicide case because someone in the family was carrying on about injustice and money.

http://www.myspace.com/denniskucinich

Hey, he even does myspace. jmo

Kel65

03-15-2008, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

ok I realize I am quoting my own quote quote buit I am cracking up at the thought of my husband catching me trying to dress a dead groundhog in one of my bras!!! He'd chit!! LOL [/*]

I just read your post and laughed out loud. My 6 yr old daughter wants to know what I am laughing about. The visual of a dead groundhog in a bra is just too much!!!! Thanks for the good laugh.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

What about her shoes, and if she wore socks :shrug: [/*]

I didn't include the shoes since we don't know what type she had on...whether they were tennis shoes, etc. But now that you mention it, if the soles were rubber there should have been traces of rubber found---rubber is something that is hard to get rid of completely.

Socks probably were melted away too.

CanCan

03-15-2008, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Sami

During O.J.'s trial, they had it 'Wong'. :D [/*]

"WONG!" LMAO @ Sami!

lilCanuck

03-15-2008, 08:56 PM

Not sure who posted it.. but the more I think about it, the theory that she'd gone into labour, makes a lot of sense to me, in many ways.

Howiefan

03-15-2008, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

:mad: sorry hinman.

I planted a christmas cactus outside 2 days ago, with the colder temps coming should I cover it w/ a bucket? Uusally I don't care but I want this one to make it if possible. [/*]
when you say cold how cold..if around 40 or so I would cover it with a bucket... as it just came from inside ..so quite a difference in temp.. like a shock or do you have those Styrofoam cones that landscapers use.. I am in Canada.. so forgive my not knowing..

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

That's what I'm saying. What are the burn rates for these materials?

Or are ya'll gonna make me set my house on fire just to see what's left? [/*]

Are the little men not looking for you anymore? :biggrin:

CanCan

03-15-2008, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by BarbraAllen

And now I am coming back to this way of thinking. Obviously all of you have read this so much more thoroughly than I did. This is what I've always so admired about the posters on this board, the way they extensively research and study these things.

(I'm afraid not only will I lose my A, but am on the way to a failing grade.) [/*]

I've got just 2 words for you, Barbra -- Summer School!!

LOL J/K!

Mimi428

03-15-2008, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

Ok, I have two and they happen to be identical IIRC (in size, brand, contents its made from).

suggest to me an accelerant, please. I don't want to burn up the driveway (gravel) though!!! [/*]

Charcoal lighter fluid is easy enough to get.

Rubbing alcohol burns real hot, but be careful - it can burn with such a clear blue flame you may not be able to see the flames easily.

JMO

Maka

03-15-2008, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

Charcoal lighter fluid is easy enough to get.

Rubbing alcohol burns real hot, but be careful - it can burn with such a clear blue flame you may not be able to see the flames easily.

JMO [/*]

reminded me....I have alcohol gel....kinda sticky and highly flammable

lilCanuck

03-15-2008, 09:06 PM

Good luck with the sleuthing folks.. I'm anxious to see your conclusions. :seeya:

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by StickyBeak

The ME report, if body was received in an upside down position, in a body bag with white sheet cover which they removed; stands to reason any particles would have dropped while turning her over. The absense of any lower charred fragments of clothing leads me to believe, there was none.

Wrapping her in a quilt, which was found at death scene could have come from CL and Xtrina's bed. IMO. If Laurean was playing the role to pasify Maria, if she did indeed call him to advise, Baby on the way, he could have easily said meet me at the bus station, I will pick you up, leave your car there. I have a car seat, you need an outfit to bring baby home in, but, The bus ticket?

Diden't CL do basic training in Texas? :chicken: [/*]

Nope Marine Corps bootcamp for Cesar would have been in California.

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by lilCanuck
Not sure who posted it.. but the more I think about it, the theory that she'd gone into labour, makes a lot of sense to me, in many ways. [/*]

But if she was in labor...how would she be able to drive? When I was in labor with both of my children, I know I wouldn't have been capable of driving.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Nope Marine Corps bootcamp for Cesar would have been in California. [/*]

Yes and bootcamp for Maria was in Parris Island (as we know from pictures).

BTW what is the dividing line (geographically speaking) that determines which bootcamp one goes to?

ETA: Aren't there just the two locations for Marine bootcamp---Parris Island and Sandy Eggo (San Diego)?

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Yes and bootcamp for Maria was in Parris Island (as we know from pictures).

BTW what is the dividing line (geographically speaking) that determines which bootcamp one goes to? [/*]

I believe it's the Mississippi River.

Kel65

03-15-2008, 09:14 PM

Candy whey you have a chance can you do some house cleaning. Thanks!

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by caejde

But if she was in labor...how would she be able to drive? When I was in labor with both of my children, I know I wouldn't have been capable of driving. [/*]

Also, if she were in true labor, why drive all the way across town to Cesar's house? Just doesn't make sense to me. Unless she was at his house and then went into labor. I just don't know if she was in labor or not. I know she tells someone she is having contractions and dilated to 2 cm...but how would she know unless she was checked? Plus, you can be dilated and still carry to full term...and most of the time you dont' dilate until around 36 weeks. And usually first time mothers start "dropping" and according to what I saw at the ATM, it didn't look like she had.

bkwits

03-15-2008, 09:15 PM

CanCan

03-15-2008, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by CanCan

In some research I did for a forensics class I was teaching, I learned that synthetic fibers burn more slowly and often remain in fragments on a burned body. Sorry, no link, too much material to wade back through, so I'll JMO. [/*]

Thought I'd re-post this from upthread, FWIW.

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

Why CA caejde?

Would it have been at Pendleton or Twentnine Palms? [/*]

He joined the Marines out of Vegas. So, his bootcamp would have been MCRD San Diego. All females go to MCRD Parris Island, SC. However, males are different. If you live east of Mississippi River you go to MCRD Parris Island. And if you live west of that, you go to MCRD San Diego.

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by IvySterling

Why CA caejde?

Would it have been at Pendleton or Twentnine Palms? [/*]

Pendleton and Twentynine Palms aren't recruit depots.

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by caejde

I believe it's the Mississippi River. [/*]

TY, that's what I thought.

I edited my post so I'll ask this: there are only two Marine bootcamps---Parris Island and San Diego or as I lovingly refer to it as Sandy Eggo, correct?

CanCan

03-15-2008, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

Okay, but take lots of pictures. You may need two old sports bras. On one, use an accelerant. On the other, just burn it. Note the burn times and when the fire goes out, note what's left.

(Burning bras really takes us back doesn't it? :D ) [/*]

:lol: Right on, baby!

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Pendleton and Twentynine Palms aren't recruit depots. [/*]

29 Stumps is more of a training area, correct?

baywench

03-15-2008, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by caejde

But if she was in labor...how would she be able to drive? When I was in labor with both of my children, I know I wouldn't have been capable of driving. [/*]

Why WHy Why would she go to CSL's house?

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by AnnieBean

BUT should I just do a pic, because I can do video, I just don't know how to download it and provide a link to it. The photos I could handle, use a big clock (for time) next to it...I can do it in the driveway, hubby will be gone...but its supposed to rain tomorrow here- we will see-I will work on it. [/*]

Upload it on YouTube!

Your camera should have a timer on it. Use that.

Then post the link!

(This ought to be good. But it's probably better that you don't use the groundhog. No sense in having the PETA folks not understanding our yearning for knowledge).

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

29 Stumps is more of a training area, correct? [/*]

It's not just a training area. It's a base. They have many different units there.

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by baywench

Why WHy Why would she go to CSL's house? [/*]

I know, why not go to the closest hospital or back over to the base hospital?

The whole labor thing doesn't make any sense to me.

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by baywench

Why WHy Why would she go to CSL's house? [/*]

I'm still trying to figure that out.

Howiefan

03-15-2008, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I didn't include the shoes since we don't know what type she had on...whether they were tennis shoes, etc. But now that you mention it, if the soles were rubber there should have been traces of rubber found---rubber is something that is hard to get rid of completely.

Socks probably were melted away too. [/*]

o/t but interesting ..page 4 of this pdf document how various fabrics burn
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/NCR174.pdf

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

I know, why not go to the closest hospital or back over to the base hospital?

The whole labor thing doesn't make any sense to me. [/*]

If she was on DD's side of town, she was closer to Naval.

If she was at CAL's she was closer to Onslow Memorial.

And I agree the labor thing makes no sense to me either.

But with all the twists and turns, anything is possible.

Even that darn rug! :hat:

IvySterling

03-15-2008, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Pendleton and Twentynine Palms aren't recruit depots. [/*]
TY caejde, I should practice looking something up instead of asking, I did, so deleted my original post :)

There are two locations which turn men into Marines: the Recruit Training Depot at Parris Island, South Carolina, and the Recruit Training Depot at San Diego, California. Where you go depends largely upon where you enlist. Those who enlist west of the Mississippi will likely go through boot camp in San Diego, while those in the East will attend at Parris Island. There is only one boot camp to turn women into Marines -- Parris Island.

Other than geographical differences, such as the lack of sand fleas and better outdoor exercise weather for "Hollywood Marines," the training is virtually identical at both locations.

Parris Island graduates more than 17,000 Marines per year. The average daily male recruit population is 3,786. The average daily female recruit population is 600.

San Diego graduates more than 21,000 Marines per year. The average age of male recruits is 19.1, and female recruits is 19.3.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marinejoin/a/marinebasic.htm

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

I wonder what that conversation is consisting of? :biggrin: [/*]

Whatever it is, I'm sure it ain't pretty.

StickyBeak

03-15-2008, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Nope Marine Corps bootcamp for Cesar would have been in California. [/*]

IIRC, CL had friends who were in boot camp in Texas. Maybe not Marines, army perhaps? I am talking way, way back in the get go of this investigation. SO, since I did not save the particular interview or article, I apologize. It was due to the fact as to why Maria or Cesar would have contemplated going to San Antonio, I believe. There was/or is a military base in that vincinity of bus destination. Do my best to find article posted and get back to you. Sticks in my craw IIYWIM

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan

o/t but interesting ..page 4 of this pdf document how various fabrics burn
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/NCR174.pdf [/*]

Way to go Howie!!! TYVM for the information.

From your link:

Fact 5: The way a fabric burns depends partly on its fiber content.

Natural cellulosic fibers (cotton, linen), manufactured cellulosic fibers (acetate, lyocell, and rayon), and synthetic fibers (acrylic, nylon, lastol,olefin, polyester, and spandex) can burn quickly when ignited, but they behave somewhat differently as they burn. Generally cellulosics burn with a yellow flame, light smoke, and have glowing embers—like a fireplace log, only much faster. Synthetics may catch fire quickly or shrink from the flame initially, but ultimately, they will sputter, flame, and melt to the skin or the flaming melt will drop to the floor. Wool and silk are protein
fibers and are difficult to ignite. They may self-extinguish, but this varies depending on the closeness of the weave or knit (fabric density) and other finish treatments.

So according to this polyester will burn quickly when ignited and have glowing embers. (And I'm only speculating as to what fiber type of clothing Maria had on)

StickyBeak

03-15-2008, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by lilCanuck
Not sure who posted it.. but the more I think about it, the theory that she'd gone into labour, makes a lot of sense to me, in many ways. [/*]

I think she was into labor, that is why she called CL JMO

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by StickyBeak

IIRC, CL had friends who were in boot camp in Texas. Maybe not Marines, army perhaps? I am talking way, way back in the get go of this investigation. SO, since I did not save the particular interview or article, I apologize. It was due to the fact as to why Maria or Cesar would have contemplated going to San Antonio, I believe. There was/or is a military base in that vincinity of bus destination. Do my best to find article posted and get back to you. Sticks in my craw IIYWIM [/*]

the Army has several, including Fort Jackson in Columbia, South Carolina; Fort Knox in Louisville, Kentucky; Fort Leonard Wood in Waynesville, Missouri; Fort; and Fort Sill in Lawton, Oklahoma.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/l/aaarmybasic1.htm

The Air Force has bootcamp in Texas.

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Howiefan

o/t but interesting ..page 4 of this pdf document how various fabrics burn
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/NCR174.pdf [/*]

Thanks!

Howiefan

03-15-2008, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Way to go Howie!!! TYVM for the information.

From your link:

Fact 5: The way a fabric burns depends partly on its fiber content.

Natural cellulosic fibers (cotton, linen), manufactured cellulosic fibers (acetate, lyocell, and rayon), and synthetic fibers (acrylic, nylon, lastol,olefin, polyester, and spandex) can burn quickly when ignited, but they behave somewhat differently as they burn. Generally cellulosics burn with a yellow flame, light smoke, and have glowing embers—like a fireplace log, only much faster. Synthetics may catch fire quickly or shrink from the flame initially, but ultimately, they will sputter, flame, and melt to the skin or the flaming melt will drop to the floor. Wool and silk are protein
fibers and are difficult to ignite. They may self-extinguish, but this varies depending on the closeness of the weave or knit (fabric density) and other finish treatments.

So according to this polyester will burn quickly when ignited and have glowing embers. (And I'm only speculating as to what fiber type of clothing Maria had on) [/*]:seeya: my pleasure and hope AB can save her bras even if they are old..always good to have spares..
Good night you lovely folks.. some of you are so funny :)

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by caejde

<snipped>

The Air Force has bootcamp in Texas. [/*]

Specifically at Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/airforcejoin/a/afbmt1.htm

crymeariver2006

03-15-2008, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by StickyBeak

I think she was into labor, that is why she called CL JMO [/*]

But, assuming she had no contact with him whatsoever since the 5/12 reporting of the rape, why call him that day when she went into labor?

Does that make sense?

Why does she not call a doctor? Or her UVA? Why call the man that allegedly raped you to tell him you are in labor?

:shrug:

And, of course, if there was contact all along then she's not afraid of him is she?

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 09:53 PM

caejde

03-15-2008, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by nuttintodo

Specifically at Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/airforcejoin/a/afbmt1.htm [/*]

Yep and it's the only one Air Force has.

The Army has a few, the Marines have 2 and I'm not quite sure about Navy.

baywench

03-15-2008, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by StickyBeak

I think she was into labor, that is why she called CL JMO [/*]

But she also took the time to gather some things and leave a note for DD that she wasn't coming back? Where was she planning to have the impending birth? JMO

nuttintodo

03-15-2008, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by caejde

Yep and it's the only one Air Force has.

The Army has a few, the Marines have 2 and I'm not quite sure about Navy. [/*]

Navy only has one and it at Great Lakes Naval Training Center which is halfway between Chicago and Milwaukee, on the western shore of Lake Michigan. And the link says that most of their training is done indoors. I can understand that since most of their time is spent on a ship or in a sub.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/navyjoin/l/aanavybasic1.htm

gaelicpeas

03-15-2008, 10:08 PM

The article of baby clothing listed in the ME's report. Sounds to me like it could have been a brand new item still in the bag from the store (this is just speculation).

I am leaning more toward what somebody suggested last night... that CL lured her to his house with a "baby present".

JMO

StickyBeak

03-15-2008, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by crymeariver2006

But, assuming she had no contact with him whatsoever since the 5/12 reporting of the rape, why call him that day when she went into labor?

Does that make sense?

Why does she not call a doctor? Or her UVA? Why call the man that allegedly raped you to tell him you are in labor?

:shrug:

And, of course, if there was contact all along then she's not afraid of him is she? [/*]

Cryme, I cannot answer but IMO I do think Maria DID have contact, I also think her Mom, although supportive, may have not told Maria what Maria wanted to hear. JMO I picture Maria on the phone with her Mom, as Mary reported saying she was having contractions. Mary said I will be there this weekend,
IMOP, Maria needed someone NOW! As she holds her stomache and perhaps her water breaks, I think Maria may have decided to do the Best she could do at that time. Trusting CL. Yes, I think she had been in touch with him even after the accusation of rape. I think she confronted CL and said HELP ME. I truly hope I am wrong in my opinion, but I believe he lured her by enticing her saying , "Yeah, I have some things for the baby, come over, lets drop the charges, I will help you if you help me, I have friends in Texas who will protect you and our baby. Grasping Straws, Sorry

caejde

03-15-2008, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by StickyBeak

Cryme, I cannot answer but IMO I do think Maria DID have contact, I also think her Mom, although supportive, may have not told Maria what Maria wanted to hear. JMO I picture Maria on the phone with her Mom, as Mary reported saying she was having contractions. Mary said I will be there this weekend,
IMOP, Maria needed someone NOW! As she holds her stomache and perhaps her water breaks, I think Maria may have decided to do the Best she could do at that time. Trusting CL. Yes, I think she had been in touch with him even after the accusation of rape. I think she confronted CL and said HELP ME. I truly hope I am wrong in my opinion, but I believe he lured her by enticing her saying , "Yeah, I have some things for the baby, come over, lets drop the charges, I will help you if you help me, I have friends in Texas who will protect you and our baby. Grasping Straws, Sorry [/*]

If she's holding her stomach and her water breaks, she should have gone to the hospital. I just don't see driving clear across town to get help. But that's just me. I know my water broke and I was ok. Was hurting but nothing unbearable. But the pain did get worse. And it was my 2nd so I knew what it would be like. This was Maria's first...and IMO she would have no idea the pain she would be in.

gaelicpeas

03-15-2008, 10:15 PM

I have never had a baby... but ML at the ATM machine doesn't fit my imagination of what labor would be like - and then driving over to the bus station, and then driving over to CL's in rush hour/payday weekend traffic.

Now, I can imagine something happening at CL's house that induced labor or something like that...

JMO

caejde

03-15-2008, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
I have never had a baby... but ML at the ATM machine doesn't fit my imagination of what labor would be like - and then driving over to the bus station, and then driving over to CL's in rush hour/payday weekend traffic.

Now, I can imagine something happening at CL's house that induced labor or something like that...

JMO [/*]

And this was her first too so she would be surprised at the pain. I know I was. I was worried I would never know I was in labor. Everyone kept telling me "You'll know." They were right! With my first I had such terrible back labor from the position of the baby...he was laying on a nerve. I was sick and throwing up and in no condition to drive, much less hit an ATM.

With my 2nd, my water broke at home and went to the hospital about an hour or so later. By the time we got there, it was hard to walk. The drive was ok but the last 10 minutes of the drive I really started feeling it. So I'm just going based on my experience but I don't think Maria went into labor and went to Cesar's house for help.

Plus, I would really like to know how/why she thought she was 2 cm dilated or if that's just something she said.

gaelicpeas

03-15-2008, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by caejde

And this was her first too so she would be surprised at the pain. I know I was. I was worried I would never know I was in labor. Everyone kept telling me "You'll know." They were right! With my first I had such terrible back labor from the position of the baby...he was laying on a nerve. I was sick and throwing up and in no condition to drive, much less hit an ATM.

With my 2nd, my water broke at home and went to the hospital about an hour or so later. By the time we got there, it was hard to walk. The drive was ok but the last 10 minutes of the drive I really started feeling it. So I'm just going based on my experience but I don't think Maria went into labor and went to Cesar's house for help.

Plus, I would really like to know how/why she thought she was 2 cm dilated or if that's just something she said. [/*]

Thanks, Caejde... your description pretty much fits my imagination of what labor would be like...

caejde

03-15-2008, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by Jas.S

That's another mystery. Because how, exactly, would she know?

All OBs and during childbirth classes, they tell you exactly when to call the doctor and when to go to hospital.

The 511 rule. Or if your H20 breaks. (511--Contractions at least 5 mins apart, lasting 1 minute and I forget the rest, or at least 5 contractions in one hour) [/*]

And from what we know, she wasn't seen at a doctor's appointment. She had one 11/26 and didn't have another til 12/26. So IMO, I don't think she would have known....unless she didn't feel right and went to Labor & Delivery and they told her and it was never mentioned. But I started dilating at 36 weeks and my baby was born at 40 weeks 2 days. And this was back in 2007.