Friday ~ 03-14-08 ~ a.m.

[henry]

good morning everyone . . . well, we're on day 64 . . . wonder whether when capt. rick sutherland reviews the questions, he's also checking to see if they have the info . . . kinda like a check & balance list for the investigators?

after reading last nite's discussion, i'm putting myself back into the confused line.

edit: thanks LG for the new ~ !

[marinewife5]

Good morning everyone. Not that i don't enjoy having my morning coffee with ya, but what would really wake me up is locating CL. I cannot believe we have nothing new at this point!

[henry]

good morning mw5 - glad to see you're back . . . perhaps we can ask AB to do some pm cleaning, pls?

edit: i'm hoping ncmostwanted is going to be doing an update pretty soon . . . maybe we should email them some questions? :)

[strick10]

:seeya: Morning all! Henry don't you ever sleep!?

[henry]

:seeya: strick10 - yeah, i do sleep, but in increments - early early early a.m. is my favorite time to be up . . . cause everyone else in our home is sleeping!!!!!

hope cesar's not sleeping well . . . nor xtina . . .

[henry]

one thing i've noticed is that a lot of our short-term memories are going . . . with all the confusing media reports, incorrect info, etc., . . . i should have put this one in my opening remarks . . . maybe we can get a group discount?

The spectacles - which come with a built in camera, display screen and computer brain - can even identify unfamiliar plants or faces.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=533358&in_page_id=1770

[henry]

Originally posted by old_lady


I wish it was only my short term memory that is going.:( [/*]

hah! and i was thinking this is how LG manages all those links . . . still trying to break/figure out how she does it :rose: for LG

[caejde]

Morning everyone! I have to go catch up on last nights post!

[bkwits]

Mornin' all


Still coughing but getting better. :seeya:

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Sami


I'm so glad you're getting better, bkwits! :seeya: [/*]

TY

Have the questions been submitted yet?

[caejde]

Just caught up with reading last night's post and can say I'm glad I wasn't here. I am so sick and tired of the finger pointing and the blame game. Doesn't everyone know that hindsight is always 20/20? I'm tired of hearing "If the Marines/law enforcement would have done this, she would be alive." We don't know that and evidently the DA knows that as well since he stated that. Don't you think investigators are saying "Man, if we would have done "this" then "this" wouldn't have happened"? I'm sorry, but for anyone who thinks they could have done a better job or prevent any crime from happening, then well they need to become a police officer or go work for NCIS then. We, as the general public, don't know what all was done or not done. I'm sure when Durham got home, he didn't notice anything amiss in the home to suspect something bad happened to Maria. People-civilian and military-do leave on their own for no explanation. At the time and with all the information they had, all indications pointed to Maria leaving on her own free will.

And yes, when Marines go UA, the Marine Corps doesn't come looking for you. So, yes, they did take that extra step to send someone to her home and to call her. And because of her being pregnant, they took that extra step to list her as a deserter. Now, I don't know what all that entails because I don't know. But I do know that listing someone as a deserter does go to law enforcement but I don't know if it's nationwide or what.

Also, Laurean being a flight risk was brought up again. And as it has been stated by NCIS and Marine Corps, based on his SRB and him showing up from work/leave/liberty in the past, the COMMANDER had no reason to place him in pre-trial restraint...therefore he was not considered a flight risk due to the rape allegations...nothing more, nothing less.

As to the poster, not sure who brought it up so forgive me, about why the Marines could get her personal effects in a home off base. That's standard procedure. Anytime a Marine's gear is left unsecured, it is standard procedure based on Marine Corps Order to inventory and secure all their items-uniforms, civilian clothes, shampoo, toiletries, CD's, money, video games, etc, etc... Everything is inventoried, boxed up and sent to the supply warehouse where it is put in a secured area that only certain people have access to.

Also, I'm sorry but if my child went missing, noone would tell me what to do or not to do. I would do it anyway. If Durham would have told me to not contact anyone, I would tell him to kiss my butt that was my child and I would do it anyway.

Sorry for such a long post, but I am just really frustrated right now. Not at anyone in particular but just this whole case.

[caejde]

Originally posted by bkwits
Mornin' all


Still coughing but getting better. :seeya: [/*]

Morning! Glad youre feeling better!

[bkwits]

Originally posted by caejde
Just caught up with reading last night's post and can say I'm glad I wasn't here. I am so sick and tired of the finger pointing and the blame game. Doesn't everyone know that hindsight is always 20/20? I'm tired of hearing "If the Marines/law enforcement would have done this, she would be alive." We don't know that and evidently the DA knows that as well since he stated that. Don't you think investigators are saying "Man, if we would have done "this" then "this" wouldn't have happened"? I'm sorry, but for anyone who thinks they could have done a better job or prevent any crime from happening, then well they need to become a police officer or go work for NCIS then. We, as the general public, don't know what all was done or not done. I'm sure when Durham got home, he didn't notice anything amiss in the home to suspect something bad happened to Maria. People-civilian and military-do leave on their own for no explanation. At the time and with all the information they had, all indications pointed to Maria leaving on her own free will.

And yes, when Marines go UA, the Marine Corps doesn't come looking for you. So, yes, they did take that extra step to send someone to her home and to call her. And because of her being pregnant, they took that extra step to list her as a deserter. Now, I don't know what all that entails because I don't know. But I do know that listing someone as a deserter does go to law enforcement but I don't know if it's nationwide or what.

Also, Laurean being a flight risk was brought up again. And as it has been stated by NCIS and Marine Corps, based on his SRB and him showing up from work/leave/liberty in the past, the COMMANDER had no reason to place him in pre-trial restraint...therefore he was not considered a flight risk due to the rape allegations...nothing more, nothing less.

As to the poster, not sure who brought it up so forgive me, about why the Marines could get her personal effects in a home off base. That's standard procedure. Anytime a Marine's gear is left unsecured, it is standard procedure based on Marine Corps Order to inventory and secure all their items-uniforms, civilian clothes, shampoo, toiletries, CD's, money, video games, etc, etc... Everything is inventoried, boxed up and sent to the supply warehouse where it is put in a secured area that only certain people have access to.

Also, I'm sorry but if my child went missing, noone would tell me what to do or not to do. I would do it anyway. If Durham would have told me to not contact anyone, I would tell him to kiss my butt that was my child and I would do it anyway.

Sorry for such a long post, but I am just really frustrated right now. Not at anyone in particular but just this whole case. [/*]

I skimmed over last night's posts and I thought some were suspicious of Durham, I didn't quite get that. Did you?

[caejde]

Originally posted by bkwits


I skimmed over last night's posts and I thought some were suspicious of Durham, I didn't quite get that. Did you? [/*]

No I wasn't suspicious over Durham. I think he was trying to look out for a fellow Marine (Maria) and didn't want her to get in trouble for being UA.

But my first reaction as well as my husband's when we heard about this was "she's dead". My husband was like if she's testifying about something she witnessed-and especially a superior officer-she's dead. Of course at the time we were thinking superior officer being a rank of Captain, Major, or above. Not an enlisted person. But then I did have my doubts when other stuff started coming out and thought maybe she was just UA.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Sami


If I remember right, Durham notified the MC that he was being deployed and, after such time as he left, the house would no longer be available to them.

I thought that was why they inventoried and packed and stored her stuff when they did. Had he not been leaving, and since they were totally convinced she was just UA, they might have waited awhile longer, to see if she returned. JMO, though, as I have no idea the time period they usually wait for such a retrieval.

Caedje, maybe you know? [/*]

Normal protocol, and if I remember correctly because it's been a few years since I dealt with personal effects, is 24 hours the Marine's personal effects are packed up-but those were always for the ones in barracks. We never had anyone in base housing or off base go UA. But I believe, that since Durham was in the house at the time, there was not a need to pack it up. But once he informed them he was leaving, then they had to since her personal effects would be considered unsecured. And the date they were packed is the date Durham was leaving.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by caejde


No I wasn't suspicious over Durham. I think he was trying to look out for a fellow Marine (Maria) and didn't want her to get in trouble for being UA.

But my first reaction as well as my husband's when we heard about this was "she's dead". My husband was like if she's testifying about something she witnessed-and especially a superior officer-she's dead. Of course at the time we were thinking superior officer being a rank of Captain, Major, or above. Not an enlisted person. But then I did have my doubts when other stuff started coming out and thought maybe she was just UA. [/*]

I, too, think Durham is a good guy in this tragedy.

When I first heard that Maria was missing and 8 or 8-1/2 months pregnant, I feared the worst because by the time the public knew of it, she had been gone for weeks, I think. I told my son that something had happened to her. A woman in that last stage of pregnancy just doesn't disappear. IMO

[JanDoe]

Good morning...

Does anyone think that Durham knew the details
of the relationship between ML and CL?

Maybe he knew the same details ML's mother knew and
not those details that other friends knew.
ie....it was a rape as opposed to a relationship.

[caejde]

Just wanted to add that I don't think the Marine Corps, law enforcement or anyone is completely innocent. Mistakes happen. Even for those with jobs such as Marines, investigators, etc. They're only human. And I do hope that procedures are looked at and if there is any room for improvement, then by all means do so.

I think something with similar to an Amber Alert should be used in the case of a pregnant person. I know they have a Silver Alert-which is meant for those with dementia, Alzheimers etc. But, also, with that, I mean what if the person did voluntarily leave...being pregnant or not...does that give law enforcement a right to go find them when they don't want to be found? I don't know.

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by caejde


Normal protocol, and if I remember correctly because it's been a few years since I dealt with personal effects, is 24 hours the Marine's personal effects are packed up-but those were always for the ones in barracks. We never had anyone in base housing or off base go UA. But I believe, that since Durham was in the house at the time, there was not a need to pack it up. But once he informed them he was leaving, then they had to since her personal effects would be considered unsecured. And the date they were packed is the date Durham was leaving. [/*]

Hello caejde and thank you for all your valuable insight into this subject.

I had a question: do you happen to know when Maria's (or anyone's) personal effects would be released to her family? When I was reading your post, I was thinking of her family and how they might be comforted, in some way, by seeing her things and I wondered if this has or will happen any time soon?

And thank you again for all your help.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by bkwits


I, too, think Durham is a good guy in this tragedy.

When I first heard that Maria was missing and 8 or 8-1/2 months pregnant, I feared the worst because by the time the public knew of it, she had been gone for weeks, I think. I told my son that something had happened to her. A woman in that last stage of pregnancy just doesn't disappear. IMO [/*]

I am quoting my post to add that even if the MC or LE thought she left on her own, didn't they think something happened to her , foul play, etc. when she didn't surface anywhere after 3 weeks?

[bkwits]

Originally posted by caejde
Just wanted to add that I don't think the Marine Corps, law enforcement or anyone is completely innocent. Mistakes happen. Even for those with jobs such as Marines, investigators, etc. They're only human. And I do hope that procedures are looked at and if there is any room for improvement, then by all means do so.

I think something with similar to an Amber Alert should be used in the case of a pregnant person. I know they have a Silver Alert-which is meant for those with dementia, Alzheimers etc. But, also, with that, I mean what if the person did voluntarily leave...being pregnant or not...does that give law enforcement a right to go find them when they don't want to be found? I don't know. [/*]

Excellent idea about amber alert for preg. women.

As for your question, yes LE does have the right and duty to find someone who may be in peril. Sure we have people who leave on their own and they are usually located right away. Recently we had the Chinese woman who disappeared from O'Hare Airport. She called within a couple of days. She had slipped by her husband waiting for her at the airport.

Then there was the 6-mos. pregnant lawyer who disappeared from I think it was Toledo. She had staged her own kidnapping, but was found within 3 days.

And of course, there is Lisa Stebic and Stacy Peterson, who have disappeared and never been found. Did they just want to leave their lives, I don't think so.
LE doesn't have to bring them back but should be concerned when they vanish without a trace.

After all if someone like Maria, in her condition, left on her own, she could still be a victim of foul play. She definitely would be at risk health-wise. IMO

[caejde]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


Hello caejde and thank you for all your valuable insight into this subject.

I had a question: do you happen to know when Maria's (or anyone's) personal effects would be released to her family? When I was reading your post, I was thinking of her family and how they might be comforted, in some way, by seeing her things and I wondered if this has or will happen any time soon?

And thank you again for all your help. [/*]

Hi Barbara. I read in an article, that Maria's personal effects were turned over to NCIS so they could then be turned over to the sheriff's department. So I guess whenever they feel they are done with it they will turn everything over to the parents.

[caejde]

Originally posted by caejde


Hi Barbara. I read in an article, that Maria's personal effects were turned over to NCIS so they could then be turned over to the sheriff's department. So I guess whenever they feel they are done with it they will turn everything over to the parents. [/*]

Also, just wanted to add a specific incident that happened when I was in. We had a guy in my unit that was on leave to his hometown. While there, he was killed. His stuff was packed and we then shipped everything home to him within a couple of weeks. So, it's possible the family has her stuff if the sheriff's office is done with it.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


I am quoting my post to add that even if the MC or LE thought she left on her own, didn't they think something happened to her , foul play, etc. when she didn't surface anywhere after 3 weeks? [/*]

There have been military personnel who have gone AWOL that were not found for years.

imoo

[caejde]

Originally posted by bkwits


Excellent idea.:rose: [/*]

I think it is too. But, as I posed...how would it affect those women that don't want to be found ya know. Does that infringe on their rights? Or does it not since the woman is liable for the baby she's carrying?

[strick10]

Originally posted by caejde


Normal protocol, and if I remember correctly because it's been a few years since I dealt with personal effects, is 24 hours the Marine's personal effects are packed up-but those were always for the ones in barracks. We never had anyone in base housing or off base go UA. But I believe, that since Durham was in the house at the time, there was not a need to pack it up. But once he informed them he was leaving, then they had to since her personal effects would be considered unsecured. And the date they were packed is the date Durham was leaving. [/*]

I'm cracking up cause I can remember it's MCOP 4050 in reference to personal effects and I know it's a 1000 SIC manual that talks about what procudures to take and when to take them for U.A. etc. Marines. I'm having flashbacks here caejde. I believe it is 24 hrs. though. Personal effects procedures for both on base residents and off base residents are the same w/ the exception of married Marines or Marines w/ dependents.

[caejde]

Originally posted by strick10


I'm cracking up cause I can remember it's MCOP 4050 in reference to personal effects and I know it's a 1000 SIC manual that talks about what procudures to take and when to take them for U.A. etc. Marines. I'm having flashbacks here caejde. I believe it is 24 hrs. though. Personal effects procedures for both on base residents and off base residents are the same w/ the exception of married Marines or Marines w/ dependents. [/*]

I am too! Sad thing is, I can still remember personal effects cases that I dealt with and probably can still tell you about if they called and asked! I was pretty darn good at doing personal effects. I ran the 782 gear warehouse and that's where PE was located. Anyway, I had been gone for 2 months when the Gunny called and said "We have inspection coming up again. We didn't do too good on the one after you left, can you help me out".

[strick10]

Originally posted by Jas.S


Amen, caejde. :patriot:

The "what if" game is just so, well, pointless.

To blame anyone in the marines/LE for preventing the murder is ridiculous.

And that weird non-logic of if the marines/LE would have done x,y, z (none of which, btw, ever seem doable, legal, practical or whatever), then ML would be alive.

It's really maddening. [/*]

It's beyond maddening at times.

[JanDoe]

.
LE had not choice but to look for ML after her mother made the
missing person's report.

If they had found her alive and safe...they could not make her
return or contact her mother.

Too bad that's not how it turned out......

[caejde]

Originally posted by Jas.S


No.

I am interested in hearing what you think--from your post--that the marines did "wrong" in this case?

Thanks. [/*]

I'm not saying they did anything "wrong" per se. Just that, there could have been mistakes. I don't know what they are or of there are any. I was just pointing out that noone is perfect-and I mentioned it for Marine Corps, NCIS, Sheriff's department.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by caejde
Just caught up with reading last night's post and can say I'm glad I wasn't here. I am so sick and tired of the finger pointing and the blame game. Doesn't everyone know that hindsight is always 20/20? I'm tired of hearing "If the Marines/law enforcement would have done this, she would be alive." We don't know that and evidently the DA knows that as well since he stated that. Don't you think investigators are saying "Man, if we would have done "this" then "this" wouldn't have happened"? I'm sorry, but for anyone who thinks they could have done a better job or prevent any crime from happening, then well they need to become a police officer or go work for NCIS then. We, as the general public, don't know what all was done or not done. I'm sure when Durham got home, he didn't notice anything amiss in the home to suspect something bad happened to Maria. People-civilian and military-do leave on their own for no explanation. At the time and with all the information they had, all indications pointed to Maria leaving on her own free will.

(snipped)

[/*]

I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgement from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


There have been military personnel who have gone AWOL that were not found for years.

imoo [/*]

When they are almost ready to give birth?

When they are a witness against another Marine in a criminal case?

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Jas.S


The marines have looked at this case and have concluded that
everything was done as it shoud have been. [/*]

That is the bottom line. Yes.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgement from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[/*]

As usual, ITA:beer:

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgement from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[/*]

Ohio Congressman Mike Turner agrees with you Regina....

[caejde]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgement from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[/*]

As I said, I hope it is investigated. But what if everything comes back that every procedure was done accordingly...are people going to believe that? Or will they still say it is all a big coverup and conspiracy?

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by caejde


As I said, I hope it is investigated. But what if everything comes back that every procedure was done accordingly...are people going to believe that? Or will they still say it is all a big coverup and conspiracy? [/*]

or make some changes in the procedures without finger-pointing.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by caejde


As I said, I hope it is investigated. But what if everything comes back that every procedure was done accordingly...are people going to believe that? Or will they still say it is all a big coverup and conspiracy? [/*]

If that happens, maybe the procedures need to be looked at and revised. IMO

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by caejde


Also, just wanted to add a specific incident that happened when I was in. We had a guy in my unit that was on leave to his hometown. While there, he was killed. His stuff was packed and we then shipped everything home to him within a couple of weeks. So, it's possible the family has her stuff if the sheriff's office is done with it. [/*]

Thank you, caejde. I hope they have them already. I'm sure it will be sad and a comfort at the same time for them to have her things.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgment from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[/*]

How in the world would the Marine Corps ever have known that Maria would go to the very home of the man she accused of raping her?

I don't think they took anything lightly. In fact I think if her allegations had been in the public domain a DA would have not pursued it based on the inconsistent statements of the accuser herself.

Even though the MC/NCIS had a very iffy shaky case they were at least going forward to an Article 32 hearing.

The MC did nothing wrong imo. Not one thing happened on that base between Laurean and Maria to violate any protective order under their jurisdiction.. She was asked repeatedly did she fear Laurean and repeatedly said no ......yet they still kept the MPO in place even with her telling them that.

They tried to protect her and it worked all those months. It isn't their fault that Maria decided to come to his home on the 14th.

imoo

[strick10]

Originally posted by caejde


As I said, I hope it is investigated. But what if everything comes back that every procedure was done accordingly...are people going to believe that? Or will they still say it is all a big coverup and conspiracy? [/*]

People that have made up their minds that the MC is to blame are not going to believe that the procedures were followed and will continue to think there is a coverup. They will think there is a coverup to that coverup. JMO

[caejde]

Originally posted by strick10


People that have made up their minds that the MC is to blame are not going to believe that the procedures were followed and will continue to think there is a coverup. They will think there is a coverup to that coverup. JMO [/*]

I think you're right!

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


Thank you, caejde. I hope they have them already. I'm sure it will be sad and a comfort at the same time for them to have her things. [/*]

I think they have released her car back to the family now too because Captain Sutherland said it will be up to the family what is done with it.

imoo

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by Jas.S


They have already done so, caejde and a few ppl still want to think otherise, which is obviously their right to do.
But, nonetheless, the marines have already reviewed and every procedure was done accordingly. [/*]

But that is according to the Marines, that every procedure was "done accordingly." And, to be sure, I have no reason to disbelieve the Marines.

But can we say as a fact, that every procedure was done accordingly? I think not; I think a better statement of fact would be that the marines have reviewed and (the marines state) that every procedure was done accordingly.

(I apologise if I misunderstood the intent of the sentence you wrote.)

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I think they have released her car back to the family now too because Captain Sutherland said it will be up to the family what is done with it.

imoo [/*]

Yes, thank you for the reminder, I do remember reading that now.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


How in the world would the Marine Corps ever have known that Maria would go to the very home of the man she accused of raping her?

I don't think they took anything lightly. In fact I think if her allegations had been in the public domain a DA would have not pursued it based on the inconsistent statements of the accuser herself.

Even though the MC/NCIS had a very iffy shaky case they were at least going forward to an Article 32 hearing.

The MC did nothing wrong imo. Not one thing happened on that base between Laurean and Maria to violate any protective order under their jurisdiction.. She was asked repeatedly did she fear Laurean and repeatedly said no ......yet they still kept the MPO in place even with her telling them that.

They tried to protect her and it worked all those months. It isn't their fault that Maria decided to come to his home on the 14th.

imoo [/*]

So, it's all on Maria because you think she went to his home willingly? We don't know what transpired that day.

Maria was forced to be in contact with him on base, so apparently the MC didn't think he was a danger to her. Maybe she came to believe that. Who would think that person you saw everyday or so would be a murderer. She said at every turn that she was afraid of him but no one believed her. Again, maybe she doubted her own sense of danger.

Personally, I don't believe she just showed up there. There is more to this story. IMO

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by strick10


People that have made up their minds that the MC is to blame are not going to believe that the procedures were followed and will continue to think there is a coverup. They will think there is a coverup to that coverup. JMO [/*]

And likewise people that have their minds made up Maria was in fact raped are not going to believe she was not, and vice versa. That's another hot topic on here. Unfortunately we're not getting anywhere at all with little NEW news to discuss. We just go round and round on the same issues that people vehemently disagree on. :(

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


But that is according to the Marines, that every procedure was "done accordingly." And, to be sure, I have no reason to disbelieve the Marines.

But can we say as a fact, that every procedure was done accordingly? I think not; I think a better statement of fact would be that the marines have reviewed and (the marines state) that every procedure was done accordingly.

(I apologise if I misunderstood the intent of the sentence you wrote.) [/*]

Within the MC...some may lose their jobs over this and some
procedures may be changed, but nothing will ever happen to the MC. And btw, haven't some people already been transferred out
of NC soon after this occured?

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by bkwits


snipped

Personally, I don't believe she just showed up there. There is more to this story. IMO [/*]

I wonder about that too, if she went to his home voluntarily and I don't think we can assume that she did.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by bkwits


I skimmed over last night's posts and I thought some were suspicious of Durham, I didn't quite get that. Did you? [/*]

I was posting about Durham last night. I think you are taking the posts out of context as we were discussing what we had heard in the media early on vs. whether or not LE should have alarm bells going off.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by bkwits


So, it's all on Maria because you think she went to his home willingly? We don't know what transpired that day.

Maria was forced to be in contact with him on base, so apparently the MC didn't think he was a danger to her. Maybe she came to believe that. Who would think that person you saw everyday or so would be a murderer. She said at every turn that she was afraid of him but no one believed her. Again, maybe she doubted her own sense of danger.

Personally, I don't believe she just showed up there. There is more to this story. IMO [/*]

"forced to be in contact with him"? Can you explain that?

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by caejde
Just caught up with reading last night's post and can say I'm glad I wasn't here. I am so sick and tired of the finger pointing and the blame game. Doesn't everyone know that hindsight is always 20/20? I'm tired of hearing "If the Marines/law enforcement would have done this, she would be alive."

Sorry for such a long post, but I am just really frustrated right now. Not at anyone in particular but just this whole case. [/*]

Where are you reading any posts that have stated anything close to "if the Marines/law enforcement would that done this, she would BE ALIVE"?

I think there may be several folks here who believe that the bodies of Maria & her fetus would not have been repeatedly desecrated & that Cesar might not be on the lam if her disappearance had been handled differently, but that is a long way from claiming she would still be alive.

JMO

[caejde]

Originally posted by JanDoe


Within the MC...some may lose their jobs over this and some
procedures may be changed, but nothing will ever happen to the MC. And btw, haven't some people already been transferred out
of NC soon after this occured? [/*]

The base commander PCS'd to another base. It was her time to go to another base...nothing more, nothing less.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Where are you reading any posts that have stated anything close to "if the Marines/law enforcement would that done this, she would BE ALIVE"?

I think there may be several folks here who believe that the bodies of Maria & her fetus would not have been repeatedly desecrated & that Cesar might not be on the lam if her disappearance had been handled differently, but that is a long way from claiming she would still be alive.

JMO [/*]

It's the impression I get.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I was posting about Durham last night. I think you are taking the posts out of context as we were discussing what we had heard in the media early on vs. whether or not LE should have alarm bells going off. [/*]

Ok, as I said I just skimmed over the posts.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by JanDoe


Within the MC...some may lose their jobs over this and some
procedures may be changed, but nothing will ever happen to the MC. And btw, haven't some people already been transferred out
of NC soon after this occured? [/*]

Who was transferred other than the base commander (whose transfer was in the works for almost a year)?

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Who was transferred other than the base commander (whose transfer was in the works for almost a year)? [/*]

ok.....sorry just one person....it was a question I asked that's all.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


"forced to be in contact with him"? Can you explain that? [/*]

Maria told her mom she had to attend meetings with him. IMO

[gaelicpeas]

The key to me is that ML was pregnant, had filed a rape accusation, was scheduled to testify about an incident (I assume the rape is the incident, but no one has clarified that) in December (although I don't know why that was stated as I did not think the Article 32 had been scheduled according to other reports) and then disappeared.

(sorry for all the disclaimers in parentheses above, but that is the way this case is!)

If she was just any ol' enlisted person without the above, then I can see why there should not have been the level of concern for her disappearance that I think in her case should have been warranted.

As for blaming LE/MC/NCIS - I do think there were some mistakes made once ML disappeared. It is very difficult to pinpoint who made those mistakes as the concerned agencies seem to be shifting the blame onto each other.

As far as what happened before ML disappeared, we can only take the MC/NCIS at their word as apparently there is no transparency in their review of their own procedures. IMO, full transparency requires an external investigation, but I doubt that will happen (unfortunately).

And no, I am not anti-military, anti-LE, or any of that. I am speaking only of this case with regard to how it was handled.

JMO

[JanDoe]

Ohio Congressman Mike Turner is trying to get that exteranl
investigation.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


So, it's all on Maria because you think she went to his home willingly? We don't know what transpired that day.

Maria was forced to be in contact with him on base, so apparently the MC didn't think he was a danger to her. Maybe she came to believe that. Who would think that person you saw everyday or so would be a murderer. She said at every turn that she was afraid of him but no one believed her. Again, maybe she doubted her own sense of danger.

Personally, I don't believe she just showed up there. There is more to this story. IMO [/*]

What I am saying is there absolutely is no way that the Marine Corps would have known that would happen.

Yes she did have one story for her family and one story for the MC but the MC can only go by what she directly told them.

I have no clue whey she decided to come there.......but to me it shows she did not fear him and she told the MC the truth. Why she told her family another story I don't know. It would seem logical that her statements would have been very consistent no matter who she was talking to but they weren't.

imoo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


I disagree with you. A young woman and her baby are dead here, every aspect of what the mc did and how they did it is open for scrutiny, imo.

IMO, the mc used extremely bad judgement from the very beginning, not the least of which was not recognizing a hostile
environment for a woman who filed a charge of rape and was subject to vandalism and a punch to her face. IMO, they did not protect her.

The very fact that Maria is dead, proves just how wrong their assessment of the entire fiasco, right from the beginning was. IMO.

I hope and pray they are forced to answer every question posed to them by the Congressional inquiry.

[/*]

And what if they do truthfully answer every question posed to them, only their answers are not what you want to hear? Or what Mary Lauterbach wants to hear?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


Maria told her mom she had to attend meetings with him. IMO [/*]

And I think we will find out if that was true or not and under what conditions and if they were actually in close proximity to each other at all.

imoo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by bkwits


Maria told her mom she had to attend meetings with him. IMO [/*]

But you don't have any proof of that. All Mary, the MC, Durham, Jenny Renner, the other girl (Melinda?), and everybody else could ever go by is what Maria supposedly told them.

Did she tell everybody the same thing? I don't think so.

JMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by strick10


People that have made up their minds that the MC is to blame are not going to believe that the procedures were followed and will continue to think there is a coverup. They will think there is a coverup to that coverup. JMO [/*]

I don't believe that the same organization that could not determine whether or not to go forward with sexual assault charges for 7 months can determine in about 60 days whether every i was dotted & every t was crossed.

I also think there would be far FEWER people concerned that a coverup could have taken place if every branch of the armed forces did NOT have a long history of mistreating military women who have made sexual assault allegations against military men. The collective history of improperly handling sexual assault claims is what it is - & it sure as heck isn't a good one.

Maria's so-called 'history' of being a 'liar' about other things seems to drive some people to believe she lied about the rape accusations.

So - if we demand that looking at HISTORY is the rule for determining veracity today, the USMC has a much WORSE history for a much longer period of time of abusing females (& males) who have made sexual assault claims against male (primarily) military personnel.

I don't believe we can demand a standard when it comes to the question of "should we measure it against history before we decide what to believe?" and then turn on a dime & apply a double standard, just because we don't want the standard to apply to our own personal oxen.

JMO

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Jas.S


Good luck to him on that.

Because there is probably nothing more imperative on the US Marine Corp or our Congress to be doing right now, I am sure. [/*]

sure it won't be open for public consumption tho.....

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I don't believe that the same organization that could not determine whether or not to go forward with sexual assault charges for 7 months can determine in about 60 days whether every i was dotted & every t was crossed.

I also think there would be far FEWER people concerned that a coverup could have taken place if every branch of the armed forces did NOT have a long history of mistreating military women who have made sexual assault allegations against military men. The collective history of improperly handling sexual assault claims is what it is - & it sure as heck isn't a good one.

Maria's so-called 'history' of being a 'liar' about other things seems to drive some people to believe she lied about the rape accusations.

So - if we demand that looking at HISTORY is the rule for determining veracity today, the USMC has a much WORSE history for a much longer period of time of abusing females (& males) who have made sexual assault claims against male (primarily) military personnel.

I don't believe we can demand a standard when it comes to the question of "should we measure it against history before we decide what to believe?" and then turn on a dime & apply a double standard, just because we don't want the standard to apply to our own personal oxen.

JMO [/*]

And who is responsible for bringing any "history" of lying to light?

I don't recall the MC saying that Maria was a known liar.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


What I am saying is there absolutely is no way that the Marine Corps would have known that would happen.

Yes she did have one story for her family and one story for the MC but the MC can only go by what she directly told them.

I have no clue whey she decided to come there.......but to me it shows she did not fear him and she told the MC the truth. Why she told her family another story I don't know. It would seem logical that her statements would have been very consistent no matter who she was talking to but they weren't.

imoo [/*]

With all due respect to the MC, we don't know what she told them. We only have a very parsed version which has been contradictory at times. Maria told others that she was afraid of Cesar, not just her family. IMO

We have no way of knowing that she went to the Ls house on her own. We only know that she was killed there. IMO

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Jas.S


There is never gonna be a hearing on this in Congress. And if there were, it would be open. But there never will be one.

If I am wrong on that, I will gladly put on the big female-gender undergarments and eat the requisite crow.

JMO. [/*]

are all external investigation Congressional hearings?

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I don't believe that the same organization that could not determine whether or not to go forward with sexual assault charges for 7 months can determine in about 60 days whether every i was dotted & every t was crossed.

I also think there would be far FEWER people concerned that a coverup could have taken place if every branch of the armed forces did NOT have a long history of mistreating military women who have made sexual assault allegations against military men. The collective history of improperly handling sexual assault claims is what it is - & it sure as heck isn't a good one.

Maria's so-called 'history' of being a 'liar' about other things seems to drive some people to believe she lied about the rape accusations.

So - if we demand that looking at HISTORY is the rule for determining veracity today, the USMC has a much WORSE history for a much longer period of time of abusing females (& males) who have made sexual assault claims against male (primarily) military personnel.

I don't believe we can demand a standard when it comes to the question of "should we measure it against history before we decide what to believe?" and then turn on a dime & apply a double standard, just because we don't want the standard to apply to our own personal oxen.

JMO [/*]


Here, Here :beer: Great post

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by JanDoe


are all external investigation Congressional hearings? [/*]

Who else would you have in mind? They would have the oversight of the military.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


But you don't have any proof of that. All Mary, the MC, Durham, Jenny Renner, the other girl (Melinda?), and everybody else could ever go by is what Maria supposedly told them.

Did she tell everybody the same thing? I don't think so.

JMO [/*]

Oh, it's back to Maria is a liar, eh?
IMO

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Who else would you have in mind? They would have the oversight of the military. [/*]


I believe sometimes they have committees that look into
problems as opposed to full blowen Congressional hearings....

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by bkwits


Oh, it's back to Maria is a liar, eh?
IMO [/*]

Oh, it's back to taking posts out of context, eh?

IMO

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Jas.S


I've never heard of that guy so I thought I would look him up today.

And oh my.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/27/michael-turner/

http://esrati.com/?p=587 [/*]

according to your source...it may not go well for him.....
it looks like he sticks his foot in his mouth.:eek:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


With all due respect to the MC, we don't know what she told them. We only have a very parsed version which has been contradictory at times. Maria told others that she was afraid of Cesar, not just her family. IMO

We have no way of knowing that she went to the Ls house on her own. We only know that she was killed there. IMO [/*]

No we don't but they do and there is much they know that we don't know.

I think we do know that is what LE believe. They have not charged him with Kidnapping. Captain Sutherland rushed out to quell the misinformation that Laurean had threatened Maria or forced her into giving up her credit card/money and said they have no evidence that he threatened her. Only that he took these things after he had killed her.

So imo there was no force. Kidnapping charges sure beat a misdemeanor charge they attached on the attempt he made on the ATM attempted withdrawal on the 24th.

Captain Sutherland has been very good about voicing what they believe the evidence shows just like he said that Laurean did not intentionally mean to burn the bodies but only built the fire pit over the grave to disguise that he had buried her there. Hence........no charges of desecrating a body because there must be a purposeful intent to be charge with that crime. IMO LE has found no evidence to back that up just like they didn't charge him with kidnapping because they have no evidence that shows she was forced to do anything.

imoo

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I have no clue whey she decided to come there.......but to me it shows she did not fear him ...

[/*]

<snip>

If you have no clue as to why she went there, how can you come to a conclusion that it was voluntary or that she did not fear him?

I don't think there are any laws of physics that apply to all of that - it isn't a matter of 'if we don't know that A is true, then * MUST be true'. There are numerous possibilities for how she arrived at his house.

It was brought up this week that she was scheduled to testify - it was also claimed that she wanted to drop the charges. IF the latter is in fact, accurate, do you know without a doubt that on the day she disappeared she was NOT threatened with bodily harm? If she was leaving on her own - do you know without doubt that it was NOT because she was told if she didn't get out of town, there would be hell to pay? For all we know, her life was threatened earlier in the day, before she ended up dead in Cesar's back yard.

You don't know. Neither do I or any of the rest of us.

JMO

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by caejde


As I said, I hope it is investigated. But what if everything comes back that every procedure was done accordingly...are people going to believe that? Or will they still say it is all a big coverup and conspiracy? [/*]

You know caejde I wish we could absolutely trust the mc to give us an honest investigation into this matter, but I am very skeptical because many of the decisions in this case were left up to the "judgement" of the unit commander. What if this person is one of the few marines who think women have no business in the corps? Is Maria going to get a fair shake? I don't think so.

Frankly I don't know how they will ever get to the bottom of what went wrong here. There has been too much time for people who may have acted improperly to cover their butts. IMO.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


You know caejde I wish we could absolutely trust the mc to give us an honest investigation into this matter, but I am very skeptical because many of the decisions in this case were left up to the "judgement" of the unit commander. What if this person is one of the few marines who think women have no business in the corps? Is Maria going to get a fair shake? I don't think so.

Frankly I don't know how they will ever get to the bottom of what went wrong here. There has been too much time for people who may have acted improperly to cover their butts. IMO. [/*]

You're obviously not going to believe anything they say, "congressional hearing" or not.

And do you know who her Unit Commander was?

[strick10]

Originally posted by Jas.S


I've never heard of that guy so I thought I would look him up today.

And oh my.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/27/michael-turner/ [/*]

Hmmmmm. Wonder where he was when Maria told her family she was being harrassed and she feared CL....

[JanDoe]

The procedure that needs to be changed is the one that allowed
Cesar time off to see lawyers for several days after the MC knew
LE was investigating a missing person's report on Maria and were
trying to interview him.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


No we don't but they do and there is much they know that we don't know.

I think we do know that is what LE believe. They have not charged him with Kidnapping. Captain Sutherland rushed out to quell the misinformation that Laurean had threatened Maria or forced her into giving up her credit card/money and said they have no evidence that he threatened her. Only that he took these things after he had killed her.

So imo there was no force. Kidnapping charges sure beat a misdemeanor charge they attached on the attempt he made on the ATM attempted withdrawal on the 24th.

Captain Sutherland has been very good about voicing what they believe the evidence shows just like he said that Laurean did not intentionally mean to burn the bodies but only built the fire pit over the grave to disguise that he had buried her there. Hence........no charges of desecrating a body because there must be a purposeful intent to be charge with that crime. IMO LE has found no evidence to back that up just like they didn't charge him with kidnapping because they have no evidence that shows she was forced to do anything.

imoo [/*]

They had plenty to charge Laurean with. Kidnapping might be a little more difficult to prove. IMO, they were cautious laying down the charges because they had to pass muster in Mexico. Of course, I feel he desecrated the body, but they didn't want to get into proving that. I do believe that Laurean intentionally meant to burn the bodies. Laurean is not a normal okay guy caught in a bad situation. He is a predator, IMO.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Jas.S


I've never heard of that guy so I thought I would look him up today.

And oh my.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/27/michael-turner/ [/*]

Oh my, my, my.:tongue:

[strick10]

Originally posted by JanDoe
The procedure that needs to be changed is the one that allowed
Cesar time off to see lawyers for several days after the MC knew
LE was investigating a missing person's report on Maria and were
trying to interview him. [/*]

There are no written or oral procedures that would have allowed CAL time off to see his lawyers. It was up to the discretion of his officer in charge.

[strick10]

Originally posted by bkwits


They had plenty to charge Laurean with. Kidnapping might be a little more difficult to prove. IMO, they were cautious laying down the charges because they had to pass muster in Mexico. Of course, I feel he desecrated the body, but they didn't want to get into proving that. I do believe that Laurean intentionally meant to burn the bodies. Laurean is not a normal okay guy caught in a bad situation. He is a predator, IMO. [/*]

Why would the LE not want to prove as much as they could? Are they only to pick and choose what is worthy of proving or what is the easiest to prove?

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by strick10


There are no written or oral procedures that would have allowed CAL time off to see his lawyers. It was up to the discretion of his officer in charge. [/*]

exactly......I see a problem with that

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by JanDoe
The procedure that needs to be changed is the one that allowed
Cesar time off to see lawyers for several days after the MC knew
LE was investigating a missing person's report on Maria and were
trying to interview him. [/*]

I agree and perhaps the "procedure" that when the local LE arrive at a camp or base, asking about a marine who has disappeared, all pertinent information be supplied. Especially the name of the marine who the missing person accused of rape.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


They had plenty to charge Laurean with. Kidnapping might be a little more difficult to prove. IMO, they were cautious laying down the charges because they had to pass muster in Mexico. Of course, I feel he desecrated the body, but they didn't want to get into proving that. I do believe that Laurean intentionally meant to burn the bodies. Laurean is not a normal okay guy caught in a bad situation. He is a predator, IMO. [/*]

That makes no sense imo. He kidnapped her and they don't charge him with that? IMO they didn't charge him because they have no evidence to show it is true. They also did not charge him with desecrating the body because they have no evidence that it was his intent.

If he were a predator I think he would have murdered someone else by now. I don't think he has. This crime was a crime of extreme heated passion that had been building for months and months. Not a predatory crime but more of a reactionary one that erupted out of the blue imo.

imoo

[strick10]

Originally posted by Sami


There's that word again.

IMO, faulty discretion led to two murders, beginning with the unit CO's discretion in not taking Maria seriously and culminating in his faulty discretion in believing, according to the MC's own words, that Cesar was not a threat to Maria or the Baby, and Cesar was not a flight risk. :mad: [/*]

If officers or enlisted in the NCO/SNCO ranks cannot have the authority and discretion to make decisions what purpose do they serve in the military? Are you saying that the MC is full of incompetent leaders?

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


I agree and perhaps the "procedure" that when the local LE arrive at a camp or base, asking about a marine who has disappeared, all pertinent information be supplied. Especially the name of the marine who the missing person accused of rape. [/*]

you can bet that when LE went to the Base they knew from
Mary that rape allegations had been made by Maria.....

[strick10]

Originally posted by JanDoe


exactly......I see a problem with that [/*]

May I ask why?

[bkwits]

Originally posted by strick10


Why would the LE not want to prove as much as they could? Are they only to pick and choose what is worthy of proving or what is the easiest to prove? [/*]

LE said more charges may be added.

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by strick10


May I ask why? [/*]

its been answered

I agree and perhaps the "procedure" that when the local LE arrive at a camp or base, asking about a marine who has disappeared, all pertinent information be supplied. Especially the name of the marine who the missing person accused of rape.

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Jas.S


How would that work?

The US govt would disallow a US citizen's right to counsel?

How? [/*]

it happens all the time........

and besides they could have had his lawyers meet him on-base

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Sami


There's that word again.

IMO, faulty discretion led to two murders, beginning with the unit CO's discretion in not taking Maria seriously and culminating in his faulty discretion in believing, according to the MC's own words, that Cesar was not a threat to Maria or the Baby, and Cesar was not a flight risk. :mad: [/*]

Right-O. Making an exception of the policy & procedure of moving the ACCUSED instead of the accuser is yet another example of something that was at the discretion of the unit commander.

JMO

[strick10]

Originally posted by Sami


Stick10, can you admit that the officer in charge used faulty discretion?

Can we all at least agree on that point?

. . . Not a threat?

. . . Not a flight risk? [/*]

I can not agree that the OIC used faulty discretion. With the few rights military personnel have that can be excercised, CAL had a right to meet w/ his attorney. His meeting with the attorney(ies) is not what killed Maria. CAL did so in as far as I'm concerned. Won't comment on the latter.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


That makes no sense imo. He kidnapped her and they don't charge him with that? IMO they didn't charge him because they have no evidence to show it is true. They also did not charge him with desecrating the body because they have no evidence that it was his intent.

If he were a predator I think he would have murdered someone else by now. I don't think he has. This crime was a crime of extreme heated passion that had been building for months and months. Not a predatory crime but more of a reactionary one that erupted out of the blue imo.

imoo [/*]

That he forced her in his truck or her car is a possiblity. It is also a possibility that he threatened. It also a possiblity that he lured her to his house. I don't know what happened and neither do you. LE may not be sure either. One person knows and he is running. IMO

Cesar may not have killed or hurt anyone else yet, but if he remains free, he will do so. He is cold and heartless. I deduce that fact not just from the murder but his actions afterward. IMO

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by Jas.S


You want someone OUTSIDE the marines to review the marine policies and procedures and to say that what the US Marine Corp is saying is, in fact, the case?

:confused: [/*]

:confused: Where did I say anything like that?

[hinman]

Originally posted by Sami


Every entity has incompetent leaders, especially our Government, imo.

That doesn't mean they're 'full of' incompetence -- just that they're human and make mistakes.

The MC made a huge mistake when their 'leader's' discretion led him/her to make the assumption that Cesar was NOT a threat to Maria and the Baby, and that Cesar was NOT a flight risk.

He/She used faulty discretion. Do you agree? TIA [/*]Glad to see you here Sami.

We all make mistakes that is for sure. You know how many get so frustrated when someone points out that mistakes could of been made in this case. I get just as frustrated when anyone feels that there is absolutely no way any one could of made a mistake in this case.

Don't get me wrong I love to read all the opinions.

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Sami
I don't understand the animosity when some of us post about concerns with the military's handling of a presumed murderer/marine.

Read back to Caedje's post, where she says that as soon as she and her husband heard that there was a rape allegation from a superior officer, they immediately thought she was dead.

The military is not that much different from civilian life, and just because he was a stellar marine, imo more suspicion should have been placed on him at the very moment Maria went missing.

JMO [/*]

ITA.....

[strick10]

Originally posted by Sami


Every entity has incompetent leaders, especially our Government, imo.

That doesn't mean they're 'full of' incompetence -- just that they're human and make mistakes.

The MC made a huge mistake when their 'leader's' discretion led him/her to make the assumption that Cesar was NOT a threat to Maria and the Baby, and that Cesar was NOT a flight risk.

He/She used faulty discretion. Do you agree? TIA [/*]

Okay so all of the leaders in Marias and CALs chain of command that were involved in this case made faulty decisions? I can't agree with that.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by strick10


Why would the LE not want to prove as much as they could? Are they only to pick and choose what is worthy of proving or what is the easiest to prove? [/*]

The DA had to move very quickly on charges in order for the Mexican authorities to issue a provisional arrest warrant. Without an indictment, the Mexican authorities will not arrest Laurean (assuming he is in Mexico). IMO, they went with the charges that were quickly found to be indictable. All other charges would rest on forensic and communications evidence which as we know, takes weeks, sometimes months to get.

JMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by strick10


If officers or enlisted in the NCO/SNCO ranks cannot have the authority and discretion to make decisions what purpose do they serve in the military? Are you saying that the MC is full of incompetent leaders? [/*]

So what are we saying here that a NCO/SNCO should have no authority? Well heck they just need to be demoted back to Privates then.

Also when can the military take away someone's rights to seek counsel about any matter? Is this rule just supposed to be applied to some and not all?

I am confused on what they really want changed.

So if we needed to be off to seek an attorney it would be hunky doorie with us if our boss didn't work with us to see that we had the opportunity?.:confused:

I find most often that employers do work with their personnel so they are given time off when they work through the week and offices will be closed on the weekend.

Why should the MC be any different and under another standard?

imoo

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Jas.S


HOLD THE HORSES.

"It happens all the time?" That a US citizen is not allowed to meet with counsel????? :confused:

And even if that statement were true, that would make it right?

Is that what is being advocated here as "change in procedures "
that the marines need to make? :rolleyes: [/*]

no Jas......just a procedure for the use of discretion in such cases
of missing Marines who have made allegations.

and yes.....citizens are not always allowed their rights.

[hinman]

Originally posted by strick10


Okay so all of the leaders in Marias and CALs chain of command that were involved in this case made faulty decisions? I can't agree with that. [/*]I doubt that but all it takes is one mistake before it turns into a nightmare.

[strick10]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


The DA had to move very quickly on charges in order for the Mexican authorities to issue a provisional arrest warrant. Without an indictment, the Mexican authorities will not arrest Laurean (assuming he is in Mexico). IMO, they went with the charges that were quickly found to be indictable. All other charges would rest on forensic and communications evidence which as we know, takes weeks, sometimes months to get.

JMO [/*]

Thanks gpeas :D

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


The DA had to move very quickly on charges in order for the Mexican authorities to issue a provisional arrest warrant. Without an indictment, the Mexican authorities will not arrest Laurean (assuming he is in Mexico). IMO, they went with the charges that were quickly found to be indictable. All other charges would rest on forensic and communications evidence which as we know, takes weeks, sometimes months to get.

JMO [/*]

It has been 65 days and counting.

Lots of investigation done since then............no other charges have been applied.

And IMO they are through charging Cesar Laurean.

imoo

[hinman]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


It has been 65 days and counting.

Lots of investigation done since then............no other charges have been applied.

And IMO they are through charging Cesar Laurean.

imoo [/*]Good afternoon GB.

I agree they are through charging Cesar IMO.

I read last night on JDnews in the comment section where sutherland said they were getting the case ready for trial. They were reinterviewing and regoing over evidence. So to me it seems they pretty much got the case figured out.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Sami


Cesar's rights had nothing to do with the now known to be faulty discretion that was used when the OIC did NOT think Cesar to be a flight risk. He gave him ample time to plan to run, with his faulty discretion

*snipped*

[/*]

I don't believe it was "faulty discretion" that they did not consider Cesar a flight risk. Based on info KNOWN AT THE TIME, he was not a flight risk. To think otherwise would be expecting them to have psychic powers.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Sami


Stick10, can you admit that the officer in charge used faulty discretion?

Can we all at least agree on that point?

. . . Not a threat?

. . . Not a flight risk? [/*]

Can you admit that based on what Maria allegedly told them she either falsified her statement or she felt no threat from the man she accused of rape?

You know, the one she accused of two rapes, but later it morphed into one rape, and by Mary's words she told her of only one....

Can you admit that if the majority of what we've been told is true, apparently Maria had some kind of mental health/behavior disorder and not just Uncle Pete's detachment disorder diagnosis?

Can you admit that IF MARIA went to his house on her own, she did not fear him and the MPO was of no use anyway because she didn't seem to want it enforced if she went there willingly???

JMO. :shrug:

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by Jas.S


"faulty discretion" is an oxymoron.

Total contradiction of terms. [/*]

I googled because I was curious, and it does seem to be a phrase that is oft used.

I think it could be argued both ways (as to whether or not the phrase is an oxymoron.)

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


It has been 65 days and counting.

Lots of investigation done since then............no other charges have been applied.

And IMO they are through charging Cesar Laurean.

imoo [/*]

I agree that they are done charging CL for now. The provisional arrest warrant has been issued in Mexico, so there is no need to complicate that process (with Mexico) with additional charges now. I think they will wait until LLE has CL in custody before they charge him with anything else, if there is anything else to charge him with. I personally have no idea if there will be additional charges, but the DA said additional charges could be filed if warranted.... JMO.

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


I don't believe it was "faulty discretion" that they did not consider Cesar a flight risk. Based on info KNOWN AT THE TIME, he was not a flight risk. To think otherwise would be expecting them to have psychic powers. [/*]

I would agree with this. It goes back to the "hindsight is 20-20" saying, to quote another oft used phrase.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


I agree that they are done charging CL for now. The provisional arrest warrant has been issued in Mexico, so there is no need to complicate that process (with Mexico) with additional charges now. I think they will wait until LLE has CL in custody before they charge him with anything else, if there is anything else to charge him with. I personally have no idea if there will be additional charges, but the DA said additional charges could be filed if warranted.... JMO. [/*]

I agree.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by hinman
Good afternoon GB.

I agree they are through charging Cesar IMO.

I read last night on JDnews in the comment section where sutherland said they were getting the case ready for trial. They were reinterviewing and regoing over evidence. So to me it seems they pretty much got the case figured out. [/*]

Thanks.........I thought they should be to the stage where they are pretty much tidying everything up. Yes, I agree I think they have a very good idea about the events that led up to this fateful day and will layout a timeline of what actually happened and when. Most likely starting in April with the witnesses they have interviewed that knew about the relationship between CAL and Maria.......could have gone even further back than that if Lisa talked to them since she mentioned Dec. 06.

Great to see you.:seeya:

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Sami


Since descretion is using one's own judgment to come to a conclusion, it has nothing to do with what into making the judgment, just with the fact, in this case, that the conclusion was FAULTY.



If that ^^^^^ is the definition of discretion, can we all agree that whoever used his/her discretion about Cesar was NOT judging wisely?

This is silly. Of course, it was NOT a wise decision. It was faulty discretion, at best. I'm being kind to give him/her that much latitude, imo.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A++discretion&btnG=Google+Search [/*]

Too much parse-snipping there for me, Sami. ;)

[JanDoe]

while the MC did allow Cesar time to visit lawyers they also
could have ordered him to answer questions with LE...

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by JanDoe
while the MC did allow Cesar time to visit lawyers they also
could have ordered him to answer questions with LE... [/*]

They could do that? (Sincere question)

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


They could do that? (Sincere question) [/*]

yes...

[hinman]

Originally posted by JanDoe
while the MC did allow Cesar time to visit lawyers they also
could have ordered him to answer questions with LE... [/*]Boy JanDoe that would of sent warning bells off with me. I think it would of made me think twice about watching him closely.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by JanDoe
while the MC did allow Cesar time to visit lawyers they also
could have ordered him to answer questions with LE... [/*]

How could the military order him to give away his constitutional rights that we all have when it comes to speaking or not speaking to LE?:shrug:

[hinman]

3 days shy of a month a women and her unborn Child lay buried and Charred in the backyard of her accused rapist who she had a restraining order against.

I think that headline is tragic I am sure we can all agree on that. Now to figure out why.

:rose:

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by Sami
Oxymoron or not, I do think one has to be somewhat of a 'moron' to have not felt Cesar might have been a flight risk, when he refused to talk to LE and needed three days off work to see a civilian attorney.:D [/*]

Sami, I've been reading your posts ever since this forum opened and always enjoy them, in fact usually I agree with your points.
In this case, though, although I see what you're saying I can't see it this way.

Maybe the person in charge felt Cesar was concerned with the possible (and probably) effects of the allegations on his military career. In that case I could see why the person in charge didn't feel he was a flight risk, after all, this had been going on for quite some time and he was still around. (And of course no way to know what Cesar said to his superiors.) Since he was called a stellar marine maybe the superior deduced that Cesar would try in every way to fight the allegations.

Add to that the fact that Cesar was married, had a child, owned a home; I think a logical conclusion would have been that he was not a flight risk.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


How could the military order him to give away his constitutional rights that we all have when it comes to speaking or not speaking to LE?:shrug: [/*]

Really!

:patriot:

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by hinman
Boy JanDoe that would of sent warning bells off with me. I think it would of made me think twice about watching him closely. [/*]

Cesar could have had counsel present and been ordered to
an interview with LE....but discretion went the other way...

[hinman]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


Sami, I've been reading your posts ever since this forum opened and always enjoy them, in fact usually I agree with your points.
In this case, though, although I see what you're saying I can't see it this way.

Maybe the person in charge felt Cesar was concerned with the possible (and probably) effects of the allegations on his military career. In that case I could see why the person in charge didn't feel he was a flight risk, after all, this had been going on for quite some time and he was still around. (And of course no way to know what Cesar said to his superiors.) Since he was called a stellar marine maybe the superior deduced that Cesar would try in every way to fight the allegations.

Add to that the fact that Cesar was married, had a child, owned a home; I think a logical conclusion would have been that he was not a flight risk. [/*]

I agree Barbra and I also love to read Sami's post they really get you thinking.

I wonder if he was cooperating by answering all questions that the investigators had. If he was that probably also lead to the conclusion. I wonder if he had a strong alibi or some kind of proof that in no way a rape could of happened.

[caejde]

Please let me clarify my post since it was referred to. When Maria was first reported missing, noone knew she was testifying in a rape allegation. It was always referred to as an "incident". There was never any indication that it was a rape. So, yes, my husband and I's initial thoughts were that the "superior officer" did something to keep her from testifying. At the time we were thinking "superior officer" meant Captain, Major, or above. And this incident could have been a wide range of things. However, as more information came to light, I started having second thoughts and thinking maybe she got scared and didn't want to testify and that she left. So, I was on the fence.

[hinman]

Originally posted by Jas.S


No.

That is not the case. [/*]See this is one part of the Military I do not understand. They basically can own you and yet they can not tell you that you need to be interviewed by LE with a lawyer present.

I know he has a right to not answer any questions which should have sent some kind of warning sign out to LE and the military members who were there.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Jas.S


Excellent point.

Those are, btw, the every day reasoning and standards on which to base a flight risk. Done every day in every court room in this country. [/*]

I thought the flight risk was already discussed. The flight risk had NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to do with the murder of Maria and the baby. It had to do with the rape. And why would he flee when he had shown up for work, had gone on leave and came back, as well as having 3 long liberty weekends.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by hinman



*snipped*

I know he has a right to not answer any questions which should have sent some kind of warning sign out to LE and the military members who were there. [/*]


NO NO NO. Use of your right to remain silent is NOT to be used against you.

[strick10]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


How could the military order him to give away his constitutional rights that we all have when it comes to speaking or not speaking to LE?:shrug: [/*]

Water boarding? Torture? :shrug:

MC made CAL available to the LE. Can't force a person to talk.

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


How could the military order him to give away his constitutional rights that we all have when it comes to speaking or not speaking to LE?:shrug: [/*]

it happens.....soldiers have been ordered to answer local LE here and abroad.....

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by JanDoe


you can bet that when LE went to the Base they knew from
Mary that rape allegations had been made by Maria..... [/*]

So if Mary told them EVERYTHING about the rape allegations, why is it that they didn't know about the MPO, nor the name of the alleged rapist until 1/7?

Seems to me she could have provided that information just as easily as waiting on the military to provide a name. And a whole lot sooner.

But that's jmo and common sense.

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by JanDoe


it happens.....soldiers have been ordered to answer local LE here and abroad..... [/*]

:confused:

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


So if Mary told them EVERYTHING about the rape allegations, why is it that they didn't know about the MPO, nor the name of the alleged rapist until 1/7?

Seems to me she could have provided that information just as easily as waiting on the military to provide a name. And a whole lot sooner.

But that's jmo and common sense. [/*]

maybe Mary didn't know about the MPO....I don't know...but I'm
sure Mary told LE about the rape allegations prior to LE going to
the Base.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Sami


And you make very good points, too, Barbara. I do think it was a tough decision to make, as was the decision of whether or not Maria was lying, etc., concerned with this case.

I just think it's too bad that there isn't some form of oversight (maybe there is that I'm not aware of), when a decision of such magnitude is made. It is only human that inherent feelings of friendship or cammaraderie come into play with 'discretion'.

IMO, Cesar should have been moved totally out of Maria's unit (according to MC procedure), and THEN discretion might have been used without so much of the 'human' element involved.

I do believe, that from Day One of the reported rape, the OIC had to use discretion on which marine was more believeable.

I think that led to others, up the line, following this lead.

Probably the reason the MC standard procedure is to move the SUSPECT out of the familiar surroundings, familiar OIC, familiar friends -- is because of this very reason.

Smart discretion needs to be made without the inherent 'friendship/personal relationship' aspect coming into the assessment.

IMO [/*]

I believe Mimi linked the MC procedure on reported sexual assaults re: moving the alleged victim or the alleged perpretrator. According to procedure, they can move EITHER based on the unit as a whole.

I don't have the link right in front of me, but from the items she noted, the MC DID follow their written procedure.

But some just refuse to believe that.

:shrug:

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by strick10


Water boarding? Torture? :shrug:

MC made CAL available to the LE. Can't force a person to talk. [/*]

nope...can't force a person to talk but wouldn't you ask why
won't he talk and help them out?

the answer we all know now is ML was buried in his backyard.

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Jas.S


HOW?:confused:

Now not only are we to advocate violating a US citizen's right to counsel, but also violate a US citizen's 5th amend constitutional rights??? :rolleyes: [/*]

wonder why we have a Civil Liberity Union?

because citizens rights can be and are violated every day.

sometimes it can be proven and sometimes it can't....they win
and lose every day.

[hinman]

Originally posted by SavannahStar



NO NO NO. Use of your right to remain silent is NOT to be used against you. [/*]Was he even read them rights?? I didn't realize he was arrested. They say anything you say can be used against you. So does that apply to anything you do not say?

[caejde]

Originally posted by Sami


Because a lot had happened AFTER all that, caedje.

Maria went missing.

Her ATM card was used by an unidentified male.

She didn't show for a doctor's appointment.

Her cell phone was found on the roadside.

Her family and LE had been to the Base trying to question Cesar.

AND STILL he was not considered a flight risk?

Faulty Discretion, imo. [/*]

It's 2 different circumstances and 2 different investigations. And even when Cesar was interviewed by police it was never as a suspect...just as a possible witness. So, why everyone is the finger pointing mood and wanting to blame the Marines for not doing their job. Why not go ahead and blame the sheriff's department for not doing their's. They had his name off the MPO and yet they only wanted to talk to him as a witness. So let's blame everyone.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Sami


They most definitely explained, in one of the PC's, that their procedure is to move the suspect but they moved the victim in this case, because of the UVA.

It was their own admission that made me suspicious. JMO [/*]

I personally dont see anything wrong with them moving Maria. She was in direct contact with her UVA at all times. I think that was a good move.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by JanDoe


maybe Mary didn't know about the MPO....I don't know...but I'm
sure Mary told LE about the rape allegations prior to LE going to
the Base. [/*]

Huh? According to her recollections of various phone calls with Maria, whether it was "meetings" or the Christmas party, Mary claims now she always said "You shouldn't have to go there, you've got a RESTRAINING ORDER".

So, did she know about the MPO or is she rewriting history?

Did she know Cesar's name or did she just know that he was "married with a child, Hispanic, and popular"?

Or was Cesar's name not known to LE until they found the MPO in Maria's car on 1/7?

I mean, we're talking about an average of 12 phone calls per week between mother and daughter. Can you believe that subject never came up?

If it was your daughter, wouldn't you have made it your business to find out everything you could about your daughter's alleged rapist?

[hinman]

Originally posted by caejde


I personally dont see anything wrong with them moving Maria. She was in direct contact with her UVA at all times. I think that was a good move. [/*]Hello caejde. I see your point on moving Maria and I can agree with that but do you think it was wrong to leave Cesear where he was?

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Sami


They most definitely explained, in one of the PC's, that their procedure is to move the suspect but they moved the victim in this case, because of the UVA.

It was their own admission that made me suspicious. JMO [/*]

I'm talking about the written page out of their own manual.

And their own admission made you suspicious? Are you serious? That sounds like you've had or currently have an axe to grind with the military in general so no matter the circumstances, you're going to be suspicious of everything they do and say.

JMO and all that.

[JanDoe]

.
The MC can and does order marines to take urine tests and
receive shots.....doesn't that seem against their civil rights?

the MC could have ordered CL to an interview with LE.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Sami


In hindsight, it might have contributed to her death. [/*]

Well yeah, if they moved her to his house....

[caejde]

Originally posted by hinman
Hello caejde. I see your point on moving Maria and I can agree with that but do you think it was wrong to leave Cesear where he was? [/*]

I believe based on procedure only one has to be moved. However, since they were in the same unit, they probably should have moved him as well. But even if he would have been moved, he still would have gotten his side of the story out no matter where he was at. I don't think they were necessarily wrong but it probably wouldn't have hurt to moved him either.

And to answer Sami, I don't see how moving her to be in direct contact with her UVA would have contributed to her death. Her UVA was there for her to talk to about anything. And that is what the counseling was for as well.

[hinman]

Originally posted by AnnieBean
How are the questions to RS coming along? Have they been emailed yet? I have been absent here and there this week from the boards. A day ot two and you miss alot if you are gone. IMO.

I need to go outside and finish picking up all the stuff I raked up, its supposed to rain this afternoon..

Its beautiful here today- in the mid 60's. come on spring............ [/*]I hope we get some new info or some insight from the questions.

I did the raking thing on Monday it was beautiful outside.

:seeya:

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Huh? According to her recollections of various phone calls with Maria, whether it was "meetings" or the Christmas party, Mary claims now she always said "You shouldn't have to go there, you've got a RESTRAINING ORDER".

So, did she know about the MPO or is she rewriting history?

Did she know Cesar's name or did she just know that he was "married with a child, Hispanic, and popular"?

Or was Cesar's name not known to LE until they found the MPO in Maria's car on 1/7?

I mean, we're talking about an average of 12 phone calls per week between mother and daughter. Can you believe that subject never came up?

If it was your daughter, wouldn't you have made it your business to find out everything you could about your daughter's alleged rapist? [/*]

yes, I sure would. I don't think ML told her mother the full truth
of her situation and Mary formed her opinion from what info she
was receiving. This relationship sounds like another bad one for
ML.

[caejde]

Originally posted by JanDoe
.
The MC can and does order marines to take urine tests and
receive shots.....doesn't that seem against their civil rights?

the MC could have ordered CL to an interview with LE. [/*]

So do alot of civilian companies. Many civilian companies require you to take a drug test and possibly have physicals. If you don't, then you don't have a job. Same with the Marines...they are employers and require drug testing-random and announced as well as shots.

[Jan Powell]

Originally posted by JanDoe
while the MC did allow Cesar time to visit lawyers they also
could have ordered him to answer questions with LE... [/*]

How?

[strick10]

Originally posted by hinman
See this is one part of the Military I do not understand. They basically can own you and yet they can not tell you that you need to be interviewed by LE with a lawyer present.

I know he has a right to not answer any questions which should have sent some kind of warning sign out to LE and the military members who were there. [/*]

The military can order you to be at an appointed place to meet w/ LE if the LE requests an interview w/ you. And I have to agree w/ you that when CAL refused to talk with or without attorneys it should've raised LE's eyebrows.

[hinman]

Originally posted by caejde


I believe based on procedure only one has to be moved. However, since they were in the same unit, they probably should have moved him as well. But even if he would have been moved, he still would have gotten his side of the story out no matter where he was at. I don't think they were necessarily wrong but it probably wouldn't have hurt to moved him either.

And to answer Sami, I don't see how moving her to be in direct contact with her UVA would have contributed to her death. Her UVA was there for her to talk to about anything. And that is what the counseling was for as well. [/*]Thanks caejde.

I agree his side of the story was going to be heard. His reputation was in jeopardy not only to the MC but his wife and friends. I think when them allegations got filed it became a challenge for CL to show he was still a stellar ( I don't mean that in a bad way) Marine and a loyal Husband.

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by Jas.S


For real, and most respectfully, what does that have to do with anything?:confused:

Fortunately, we have 5th amend rights. Even Marines! ;)

Nobody can order an interview with LE. [/*]

I disagree with you...:)

[caejde]

Originally posted by strick10


The military can order you to be at an appointed place to meet w/ LE if the LE requests an interview w/ you. And I have to agree w/ you that when CAL refused to talk with or without attorneys it should've raised LE's eyebrows. [/*]

Me too. But if CAL was really smart and really the McGyver he's supposed to be, why not lie and say "You know, I really don't know. I've heard "and then make up a good lie".

[strick10]

Originally posted by JanDoe


it happens.....soldiers have been ordered to answer local LE here and abroad..... [/*]

Really?

[hinman]

Originally posted by caejde


Me too. But if CAL was really smart and really the McGyver he's supposed to be, why not lie and say "You know, I really don't know. I've heard "and then make up a good lie". [/*]Good Point.

WHich brings me up another question if Maria was going to make false allegations why make the statements she did? Why not say he forced her, Why not if they were having a relationship go to the hospital afterwards and claim rape and get a rape kit done.

ahh just makes me want tohammer

[JanDoe]

Originally posted by strick10


Really? [/*]

really....

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by Jas.S


Which brings us back to the opening post in this thread.

And now I will hammer my head... [/*]

But then, if the concept of hindsight didn't exist, what would we talk about on message boards? Who knows, maybe we would actually do our work when we are at work? (What a concept!)

Don't hammer your head, it isn't good for you (or your head!)
And it hurts to watch!

eta: I just learned that when you write h ammer, this happens:
hammer

[caejde]

Originally posted by hinman
Good Point.

WHich brings me up another question if Maria was going to make false allegations why make the statements she did? Why not say he forced her, Why not if they were having a relationship go to the hospital afterwards and claim rape and get a rape kit done.

ahh just makes me want tohammer [/*]

I'm on the fence as to the rape allegations. Part of me believes there was a rape and the other part of me doesn't. If that makes any sense.

[hinman]

Originally posted by caejde


I'm on the fence as to the rape allegations. Part of me believes there was a rape and the other part of me doesn't. If that makes any sense. [/*]Makes total sense. :)

[caejde]

Originally posted by Sami


I wonder if any fence-sitters have acually decided on a position in these last weeks. :shrug: [/*]

I haven't decided firmly on anything. I have no one set "theory". I am trying to keep everything open. I have a ton of questions. My husband has never seen me so into a case before. He told me I should just go work as an investigator and at least get paid. Maria's case has really affected me. And I hope that if there are things that can be done better, then I hope that's what happens. And I truly mean that.

[hinman]

Originally posted by Sami


Faulty NC discretion on how to consider a murdered fetus, imo. [/*]I was glad to hear the Sheriff was going to try to get that law changed.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Well yeah, if they moved her to his house.... [/*]

Was that meant to be sarcasm?

If so, I think it is poorly placed in this case, where the victim was cruely murdered at his house.

[caejde]

Originally posted by hinman
I was glad to hear the Sheriff was going to try to get that law changed. [/*]

I've signed a petition. And had I not signed the petition, I was going to write my state rep. We had just moved back into the state and I did not know this law wasn't in place. As a matter of fact, I had read an article at my inlaws about an 8 month pregnant woman and the baby getting killed by a drunk driver(who was also an illegal). Apparently he was fleeing cops and hit her and both the woman and baby died. He barely had anything wrong. He got life in prison I believe because they couldn't charge for the baby's death. And that infuriated me. And then Maria's death came after that and then I heard of another instance. So, I signed the petition.

But I have always wondered if they could get around the murder charge and charge him with something of endangering a baby or something like that.

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by caejde


I'm on the fence as to the rape allegations. Part of me believes there was a rape and the other part of me doesn't. If that makes any sense. [/*]

Yes, I think it makes sense.

I have seen some talk about the rape allegations both here and on other boards, where people are saying that maybe it was a situation where she told him to "stop" and he didn't, and maybe he told her, "but I didn't think you really meant that." Maybe something like this was a reason for possible internal conflict on Maria's part.

And, I have wondered, when it comes to reports of her seeing Cesar and not being afraid of him, if maybe they kept on discussing the "it was/it wasn't" scenario. Maybe Maria truly could not decide in her heart if an actual rape had happened and was influenced by others who told her she must report it no matter what? And, if it is true that she wanted to withdraw the allegations, maybe this same scenario could have been the reason?

I believe that Maria believed she was raped, I don't believe Maria made "false allegations." But, I can also see the scenario above as a possibility and a reason for all that transpired later.

Maria was young. Cesar was young. Yes, they were "old enough" to fight for their country but these two both had much maturing to do before they were true adults. I see this as factoring into this tragedy, along with everything else.

[caejde]

Originally posted by Sami


I have a lot of respect for you and your hubby, caedje. :patriot: [/*]

Thank you. And I have alot of respect for everyone here. I don't mean for my posts to be mean or rude to anyone in anyway. So I will apologize now if they have or if they ever do...it's never intended that way.

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by Sami
Good post, hinman. :beer:

snip

If she were lying to get revenge, she could have done such a much better job, imo.

[/*]

Oh, this is such a good point!

[Lynn Gweeny]

SATURDAY: Stop the Public Enemies

ALL COUNTIES: This week, NC WANTED profiles seven of North Carolina's most dangerous fugitives. Your tips can finally put them behind bars. On Saturday at 10:35 p.m. on Fox 50, NC WANTED will feature the following fugitives:

Cesar Laurean: Police have launched an international manhunt for the alleged killer of pregnant Marine Maria Lauterbach. The charred remains of Lauterbach and her unborn child were found in Laurean's backyard in January. Authorities believe Laurean may have fled to Mexico. He is a Hispanic male, with brown eyes and black hair. He may be using the aliases Cesar Gudino or Cesar Sanchez.

http://www.ncwanted.com/mostwanted/story/2325511/

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by Jas.S


:lol:

Exactly! [/*]

Of course, that doesn't apply to those of us who would never ever think of reading the InSession boards while we are at work!

[bkwits]

Originally posted by caejde


Thank you. And I have alot of respect for everyone here. I don't mean for my posts to be mean or rude to anyone in anyway. So I will apologize now if they have or if they ever do...it's never intended that way. [/*]


You and I haven't always agreed on every point, but I find you to be totally respectful and tolerant of everyone. I wish I could have as much patience as you possess.


JMO

[hinman]

Originally posted by caejde


I haven't decided firmly on anything. I have no one set "theory". I am trying to keep everything open. I have a ton of questions. My husband has never seen me so into a case before. He told me I should just go work as an investigator and at least get paid. Maria's case has really affected me. And I hope that if there are things that can be done better, then I hope that's what happens. And I truly mean that. [/*]I am glad that you are keeping an open mind. I am trying to do the same. I have so many questions. I want to believe Maria so badly but there are so many questions to say for sure just yet.

I learned my lesson from the Duke rape case. I just could not believe that women was not raped and when it started leaning that way I hoped that some evidence would surface that she did not lie not because I wanted to see them poor young men's life ruined but I hated to see what she was doing to rape victims around the world.

Now I don't want to give the wrong impression because that case didn't make me not believe in rape victims it just opened my eyes a little and I am a little more cautious now.

When I look at this case I think it could go either way. We can't compare statements of Maria and CL and there has been so much misinformation out there and we only have a few sentences of her statement.

[BarbraAllen]

Originally posted by Sami


Faulty NC discretion on how to consider a murdered fetus, imo. [/*]

Once again, I agree with you. That law should be changed in every state in my humble opinion.

[caejde]

Originally posted by bkwits



You and I haven't always agreed on every point, but I find you to be totally respectful and tolerant of everyone. I wish I could have as much patience as you possess.


JMO [/*]

When I get that irritated, I just log off. Patience is not one of my virtues...ask my husband. But I do have a 6 & 1 year olds...so I've had to learn!

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Jas.S


For real, and most respectfully, what does that have to do with anything?:confused:

Fortunately, we have 5th amend rights. Even Marines! ;)

Nobody can order an interview with LE. [/*]


strick10
Member

Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Been There Done That
Posts: 647

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Strick10



The military can order you to be at an appointed place to meet w/ LE if the LE requests an interview w/ you. And I have to agree w/ you that when CAL refused to talk with or without attorneys it should've raised LE's eyebrows.


__________________
IMOO

[caejde]

Originally posted by hinman
I am glad that you are keeping an open mind. I am trying to do the same. I have so many questions. I want to believe Maria so badly but there are so many questions to say for sure just yet.

I learned my lesson from the Duke rape case. I just could not believe that women was not raped and when it started leaning that way I hoped that some evidence would surface that she did not lie not because I wanted to see them poor young men's life ruined but I hated to see what she was doing to rape victims around the world.

Now I don't want to give the wrong impression because that case didn't make me not believe in rape victims it just opened my eyes a little and I am a little more cautious now.

When I look at this case I think it could go either way. We can't compare statements of Maria and CL and there has been so much misinformation out there and we only have a few sentences of her statement. [/*]

I didn't follow the Duke case. This case is what brought me to these boards. And IMO, I think if a woman makes a false allegation she should be punished. It would have been a shame if those boys were convicted but they were truly innocent.

[strick10]

Originally posted by BarbraAllen


Of course, that doesn't apply to those of us who would never ever think of reading the InSession boards while we are at work! [/*]

Shhhhhh. :cool:

[caejde]

Originally posted by Jas.S


Not in NC, caejde. And as per your post the man did get life. [/*]

Right he did get life--at least as far as I remember--but he was only charged with the woman's death. I just didn't know if DA's could get creative to somehow charge for the death of an unborn baby.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by bkwits



You and I haven't always agreed on every point, but I find you to be totally respectful and tolerant of everyone. I wish I could have as much patience as you possess.


JMO [/*]

I absolutely agree with you about caejde, they are an important addition to the forum.


:patriot:

[hinman]

Originally posted by caejde


Right he did get life--at least as far as I remember--but he was only charged with the woman's death. I just didn't know if DA's could get creative to somehow charge for the death of an unborn baby. [/*]I think only the Military could charge him wtih Gabriels death.

Anyone am I right or wrong on this?

[caejde]

Originally posted by hinman
I think only the Military could charge him wtih Gabriels death.

Anyone am I right or wrong on this? [/*]

My husband and I have discussed this a good bit. We both think that technically he could be charged by the military for killing Maria. And since she was a federal employee, then they could also charge him for the murder of the baby. I thought it would be double jeopardy but my husband says no. And this is how he concluded that: if you got caught with a DUI out in town, you would be charged in the civilian world, but also back on base you would be charged. But in all honesty, I don't know how it works.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Sami


You're never rude, caedje.

I think I should also apologize in case anyone thinks my posts are mean or rude. It's hard to not be passionately opinionated, but I do try. [/*]

Well, since we're all tripping down to the river to sing Koom By Ya, can we just blame all our snerkiness on faulty discretion? :tongue:

[caejde]

Originally posted by Jas.S


I am not sure about this, but I believe that there is actually a precedent in NC for that with the Geoff McDonald case--also at LeJeune.

Just typing as I think about this. Were those murders off base?

Because he had a military hearing and then he was tried by the state of NC and the sup court has ruled that there was no double jeopardy attached. [/*]

I don't know anything about that case....sorry.

[bkwits]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


Well, since we're all tripping down to the river to sing Koom By Ya, can we just blame all our snerkiness on faulty discretion? :tongue: [/*][/QUOTE


:D

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Jas.S


I am not sure about this, but I believe that there is actually a precedent in NC for that with the Geoff McDonald case--also at LeJeune.

Just typing as I think about this. Were those murders off base?

Because he had a military hearing and then he was tried by the state of NC and the sup court has ruled that there was no double jeopardy attached. [/*]

Jeffrey MacDonald was at Fort Bragg. Army, not Marines.

Doesn't make any difference in your premise, but if somebody wanted to google it, wouldn't want them coming back with Glenn Beck instead of Glenn Sacks again....:D

ETA, yes they did live in base housing.

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by hinman
I think only the Military could charge him wtih Gabriels death.

Anyone am I right or wrong on this? [/*]

COOPER: And, Eugene Fidell, military law attorney, I talked to the district attorney a short time ago. He said, under North Carolina law, unless the baby has been born, this -- whoever is charged in any kind of murder that may have taken place would only be charged with a single count of homicide.

FIDELL: Well, the military situation is somewhat different.

On April 18 of last year, President Bush signed an executive order modifying the manual for courts-martial to implement some legislation Congress enacted not long before that, that would create another offense. And that other offense, in the case of intentional killing of a fetus in utero -- that is, an unborn child -- constitutes another murder.

So, you might well have a situation where, under the state law, there's only one specification of murder.

COOPER: Right.

FIDELL: -- but, under military law, there might be two.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/11/acd.02.html

[donna]

Hello, everyone! (have had company in from out of town!)

I have caught up on all posts from yesterday and this morning finally. Great discussions!

I am going to use a phrase of 'It is what it is'. This is a horrible murder of a female Marine and her baby, and CAL has been charged with it.

The only person I blame for it is Cesar Amando Laurean, and anyone who may have helped him during or after the murder. No one could have watched CAL 24/7 to make sure he would not have the opportunity to even get in touch with Maria, much less murder she and Gabriel.

We have all become so attached to Maria and Gabriel. We want justice for them. CAL must be captured and brought back to North Carolina!

[hinman]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny



Snipped:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/11/acd.02.html [/*]Thank You Lynn.

[donna]

Originally posted by Sami


Glad you're back, donna. :seeya: [/*]

:seeya: ... Hi, Sami! Good to 'see' you!

[caejde]

From the link Lynn posted:

This was said by DA Hudson: The alleged rape that occurred on the military base so my office has not been involved in that, the Marine Corps has been dealing with it exclusively.

The homicide, if it occurred, that will be something that even my office will have to deal with or the Marine Corps.

Both of us could prosecute him for that if we wanted to.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/11/acd.02.html

[strick10]

Originally posted by donna
Hello, everyone! (have had company in from out of town!)

I have caught up on all posts from yesterday and this morning finally. Great discussions!

I am going to use a phrase of 'It is what it is'. This is a horrible murder of a female Marine and her baby, and CAL has been charged with it.

The only person I blame for it is Cesar Amando Laurean, and anyone who may have helped him during or after the murder. No one could have watched CAL 24/7 to make sure he would not have the opportunity to even get in touch with Maria, much less murder she and Gabriel.

We have all become so attached to Maria and Gabriel. We want justice for them. CAL must be captured and brought back to North Carolina! [/*]

Brought back to NC alive! Don't want him to take the easy way out of facing this by killing himself or others killing him. Yup want him alive.

[hinman]

Originally posted by strick10


Brought back to NC alive! Don't want him to take the easy way out of facing this by killing himself or others killing him. Yup want him alive. [/*]I second that strick:)

[caejde]

Also this:

COOPER: Sheriff, hold on one moment.

I just want to bring in Eugene Fidell, military law attorney, who joins us as well.

In terms of who would prosecute this, is there -- there's military law involved, but there's also, of course, criminal civilian law.

EUGENE FIDELL, MILITARY LAW ATTORNEY: That's exactly right, Anderson. And the fact is that, even though it seems surprising, both jurisdictions, the military and the local authorities, can prosecute the case. The difficulty is, if they are both investigating, there would be a danger that they might be bumping into one another and possibly prejudicing successful investigations and prosecutions.

But, in theory, they could both prosecute, and it wouldn't at all surprise me, given the way the facts seem to be unfolding, that the center of gravity in this case might shift away from the sheriff and the district attorney towards the military justice apparatus.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/11/acd.02.html

[donna]

Originally posted by strick10


Brought back to NC alive! Don't want him to take the easy way out of facing this by killing himself or others killing him. Yup want him alive. [/*]

Hi strick10!

Oh, yes, ALIVE!

And since the DP is off the table for him, I want him to be locked up for life. May he have a LONG, locked up life!

[donna]

Originally posted by caejde
Also this:

COOPER: Sheriff, hold on one moment.

I just want to bring in Eugene Fidell, military law attorney, who joins us as well.

In terms of who would prosecute this, is there -- there's military law involved, but there's also, of course, criminal civilian law.

EUGENE FIDELL, MILITARY LAW ATTORNEY: That's exactly right, Anderson. And the fact is that, even though it seems surprising, both jurisdictions, the military and the local authorities, can prosecute the case. The difficulty is, if they are both investigating, there would be a danger that they might be bumping into one another and possibly prejudicing successful investigations and prosecutions.

But, in theory, they could both prosecute, and it wouldn't at all surprise me, given the way the facts seem to be unfolding, that the center of gravity in this case might shift away from the sheriff and the district attorney towards the military justice apparatus.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/11/acd.02.html [/*]

Thank you for the link and article, caejde!

[donna]

Originally posted by Sami


Thanks, caedje.

I hadn't read that link in a long time, and this jumped out:



I always assumed the slug in the face happened early on, but it must have been at about the time she decided to move off base.

How sad. . . . .
:(

What kind of man slugs a woman in the last couple months of her pregnancy? I'd love to know how that got handled by the Corps.

And I wonder if Maria DID think it might have been Cesar, but might have been afraid to say so. Surely there wouldn't be another Marine capable of slugging, in the face, a pregnant marine sister. :shrug: [/*]

:flamemad:

Well, it had to be either CAL or one of his infamous buds that attended his bonfire/barbecue!

This was no man! It was a peice of slime that should not be allowed to wear the uniform of a United States Marine!

[hinman]

Originally posted by AnnieBean



This could be a clue. I bet she kept her housekey to Durhams on her key ring along w/ her car keys, her parents house key, etc etc. If SHE really wrote the note to Durham, don't you think she would have A: packed ALL of her stuff, not just a few things and
Bee*: left the housekey? I mean, if you are never coming back, you are sick of the marine life and see ya- but leaving some stuff behind and taking the key? THAT doesn't sound normal or even reasonable IMO. [/*]It doesn't sound normal to me either. She took the time to write a note and apologize for the inconvenience yet didn't leave the house key with the note.

[donna]

Originally posted by caejde
Also this:

COOPER: Sheriff, hold on one moment.

I just want to bring in Eugene Fidell, military law attorney, who joins us as well.

In terms of who would prosecute this, is there -- there's military law involved, but there's also, of course, criminal civilian law.

EUGENE FIDELL, MILITARY LAW ATTORNEY: That's exactly right, Anderson. And the fact is that, even though it seems surprising, both jurisdictions, the military and the local authorities, can prosecute the case. The difficulty is, if they are both investigating, there would be a danger that they might be bumping into one another and possibly prejudicing successful investigations and prosecutions.

But, in theory, they could both prosecute, and it wouldn't at all surprise me, given the way the facts seem to be unfolding, that the center of gravity in this case might shift away from the sheriff and the district attorney towards the military justice apparatus.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/11/acd.02.html [/*]

caejde, would the USMC try CAL with being a deserter when he is brought back? If so, what is the penalty in the military for being a deserter?
TIA

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by ATLANTIS
You realize there is a group of Mexican army deserters..who are operating a drug gang in Mexico.Do you think Laurean is with them ? [/*]
I don't know what you're referring to as you posted no link for reference :shrug:

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Sami


Thanks, caedje.

(SNIP)

I hadn't read that link in a long time, and this jumped out:

I always assumed the slug in the face happened early on, but it must have been at about the time she decided to move off base.

[/*]

Regarding the time frame when the 2 incidents occurred:

As the summer wore on, Lauterbach reported several incidents of harassment to her mother. In August, a man called Lauterbach's name and punched her in the face, knocking her down, she said. Lauterbach felt certain it was one of Laurean's friends but never filed a formal complaint.

Later in the summer, somebody keyed her blue 2006 Hyundai Sonata from the front door all the way back to the tail lights.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/story/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/01/20/ddn012008mariainside.html?cxntlid=inform

[hinman]

Originally posted by donna


caejde, would the USMC try CAL with being a deserter when he is brought back? If so, what is the penalty in the military for being a deserter?
TIA [/*]It is DP at a time of war and we are at a time of war.

[caejde]

Originally posted by donna


caejde, would the USMC try CAL with being a deserter when he is brought back? If so, what is the penalty in the military for being a deserter?
TIA [/*]

Yes, I believe the Marine Corps will try him for desertion. And this is the max punishment that can be handed out:

(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.


(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

(*) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm85_3.htm

[caejde]

Originally posted by hinman
It is DP at a time of war and we are at a time of war. [/*]

Yes, that was there as well.

[donna]

Originally posted by hinman
It is DP at a time of war and we are at a time of war. [/*]

Thank you, hinman!

CAL should be tried for EVERYTHING he has done.

[hinman]

Originally posted by caejde


Yes, I believe the Marine Corps will try him for desertion. And this is the max punishment that can be handed out:

(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.


(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

(*) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm85_3.htm [/*]Would this apply, from your same link

3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

[hinman]

Originally posted by caejde


Yes, that was there as well. [/*]Sorry caejde, I didn't see this.

[caejde]

Originally posted by hinman
Would this apply, from your same link

3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct. [/*]

Yeppers!

[hinman]

Originally posted by old_lady


I don't believe the action in Iraq has ever been declared a war. There has to be an act of congress and there wasn't one. jmoo [/*]I don't know, hmm what is it then?

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by donna


caejde, would the USMC try CAL with being a deserter when he is brought back? If so, what is the penalty in the military for being a deserter?
TIA [/*]

Hiya donna!

Yes, CAL will be court maritialed once he is captured and returned. I don't know when the MC will do this, but most likely it will be done after the State gets through its trial.

I'm sure he will be reduced in rank, foreiture of all pay and allowances, given a dishonorable discharge, etc. As to his jail time for the desertion charges I don't have a clue. The MC may just let him serve his time if he's found guilty on the State's charges.

And to all who have asked about the questions to Sutherland---yes they were sent yesterday afternoon and I have not gotten a response back from him yet. I bet he's a wee bit busy since they had two fugitives returned to Onslow County in the last couple of days (unfortunately CAL wasn't one of them). But on a good note, I haven't received an email stating he wasn't going to answer our questions.

I'm also just getting back online----someone hijacked my internet last night after 8:40pm and it's taken until now to get that issue resolved with Time Warner. But all is well otherwise.

JMO

[donna]

Originally posted by AnnieBean


***respectfully snipped***

{reading back the original transcripts, it cracks me up with SB and the diving rod- not that he made one and used it because what they hay do I know it could be the most scientific way of finding "cavities" under the ground...but he says that the hangar/rod showed him the "obvious spot where a cavity was" or whatever he said- and I am wondering why didn;'t the fact that the ground was charred and sections of fence missing and possibly burned clue him in, before he went all drastic and called in the dry cleaners for the coat hangar????} [/*]

LOL, AnnieBean!
It worked, tho! I guess I am for anything that works in this case! It was an honest effort on SB's part.
It would be an obvious spot to look at - you are right.
:)

[donna]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


Hiya donna!

Yes, CAL will be court maritialed once he is captured and returned. I don't know when the MC will do this, but most likely it will be done after the State gets through its trial.

I'm sure he will be reduced in rank, foreiture of all pay and allowances, given a dishonorable discharge, etc. As to his jail time for the desertion charges I don't have a clue. The MC may just let him serve his time if he's found guilty on the State's charges.

And to all who have asked about the questions to Sutherland---yes they were sent yesterday afternoon and I have not gotten a response back from him yet. I bet he's a wee bit busy since they had two fugitives returned to Onslow County in the last couple of days (unfortunately CAL wasn't one of them). But on a good note, I haven't received an email stating he wasn't going to answer our questions.

I'm also just getting back online----someone hijacked my internet last night after 8:40pm and it's taken until now to get that issue resolved with Time Warner. But all is well otherwise.

JMO [/*]

:seeya: ... Hi, nuttin!

I want CAL tried by civillian and the military! I think the murder trial should be first, then the MC hit him with everything they can!

Thanks so much for the update on the questions to Captain Sutherland! I hope he will get a chance to answer them soon! Also, I think these questions are a great tool for LE to look at. Something may have been brought up that will give them pause.

On your internet - :eek:

[donna]

Originally posted by caejde


Yeppers! [/*]

:)

[hinman]

Originally posted by old_lady


I will have to search for that. I had seen a link involving this, but have to find it.

Like VietNam wasn't a war either. imo [/*]Oh don't worry about it. I was just curious.

[hinman]

Originally posted by Jas.S

'
If it, indeed, happened at all. [/*]:confused: How did her body get charred then.

Sorry Jas. I read this post wrong.

[donna]

Originally posted by old_lady


I don't believe the action in Iraq has ever been declared a war. There has to be an act of congress and there wasn't one. jmoo [/*]

If this is not a war, why have very close to 4,000 of or military men and women been killed? -

There was a vote as to whether or not to send troops into harm's way! IMO, it is a war.

GB all the military and their families! (and former military as well)

:patriot:

[GentleBreeze]

Just wanted to let ya ll know. Nuttin is having Internet problems and will be back on line as soon as it is fixed.

She said to tell everyone that she has sent the email to Captain Sutherland but so far he has not written her back.

I believe she said he may be very busy because they are looking for two suspects to do with another crime. I don't know if they are escapees or what.

imoo

[Jan Powell]

Originally posted by Jas.S

'
If it, indeed, happened at all. [/*]

I agree, unless there are charges, a sworn statement or a report of some bruising, etc., I think there is a lot of room for debate on this allegation.

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze
Just wanted to let ya ll know. Nuttin is having Internet problems and will be back on line as soon as it is fixed.

She said to tell everyone that she has sent the email to Captain Sutherland but so far he has not written her back.

I believe she said he may be very busy because they are looking for two suspects to do with another crime. I don't know if they are escapees or what.

imoo [/*]
Thanks GB!

[donna]

Originally posted by hinman
Sorry caejde, I didn't see this. [/*]

I did not either, hinman. I still want the MC to hit CAL with everything they can.

[hinman]

Originally posted by Jan Powell


I agree, unless there are charges, a sworn statement or a report of some bruising, etc., I think there is a lot of room for debate on this allegation. [/*]I never understood this part of the investigation.

Maria gets punched in the face and her car keyed now I think they happened at different times so did she report them separate or together and how long after it happened did she report it?

I would also like to know if the person she told it to saw any bruises.

This is where I get so confused she reported it to one person who told her to report it to someone else?

So was the first person that she told it to not in a postitionto do anything and why could that person not report it to the right individual?

And when I say reported I truly don't know if it was considered reported or not? so please don't yell at me for using reported. I am really confused on this issue.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by ATLANTIS
You realize there is a group of Mexican army deserters..who are operating a drug gang in Mexico.Do you think Laurean is with them ? [/*]

LOL I think an Army deserter and a Marine deserter would mix like oil and water.

Sort of like a guy that drives a Kawasaki motorcycle pairing off with a gang that drives Harleys.:D

I have never heard of Mexican Army deserters ganging up. I haven't even read about any particular ethnic group being deserters.

Do you have a link?

imoo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Sami


Hey, nuttin -- sorry about your computer problems. Thank you for all your work with Sutherland.

I was reading about going AWOL, in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Not sure if this applies to Cesar, but it sounded interesting:



:confused:

http://www.constitution.org/mil/ucmj19970615.htm#IV [/*]

Either way it sounds like CAL will be spending A LOT behind bars, especially if he's found guilty by the State! Which if he's found guilty of murder, that's exactly where he belongs.

But wonder what happens if he's sentenced to LWOP by a civil court? When will he serve the sentence handed down by the court marital?

I do remember in Jeffrey MacDonald's case, after the State found him guilty of murdering his wife and children, he was quietly court martialed by the Army and then the NCMD board stripped him of his license to practice medicine. But since he committed murder on Federal Property (Ft. Bragg) he went straight to the Federal Hilton.

JMO

And as to my 'net problems----after my experience with Time Warner between last night and today---I'm ALMOST bald! :eek:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Sami


We don't know about the charge or sworn statement, due to MC not feeling we have the right to know. Not even her family has been able to talk to anyone who dealt with Maria directly, about her rape allegation and subsequent 'slugging' charge.

But, IF I were going to make a false allegation about being hit to try to get Cesar in trouble or to cement my case of being raped, I would definitely include a bruise or a mark of some kind, regardless of how I had to acquire such mark.

And of course, the bruise or mark could have come from any sort of accident around the house or from falling, and then some here might be posting: I just can't wrap my head around that bruise coming from a slug in the face by her alleged rapist or an acquaintance of his. :rolleyes: [/*]

Yes, surely if an adult male punched her in the face she had the bruises to show the MC.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


Either way it sounds like CAL will be spending A LOT behind bars, especially if he's found guilty by the State! Which if he's found guilty of murder, that's exactly where he belongs.

But wonder what happens if he's sentenced to LWOP by a civil court? When will he serve the sentence handed down by the court marital?

I do remember in Jeffrey MacDonald's case, after the State found him guilty of murdering his wife and children, he was quietly court martialed by the Army and then the NCMD board stripped him of his license to practice medicine. But since he committed murder on Federal Property (Ft. Bragg) he went straight to the Federal Hilton.

JMO

And as to my 'net problems----after my experience with Time Warner between last night and today---I'm ALMOST bald! :eek: [/*]

Is everything okay now?

Glad to see you're back.

imo:seeya:

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


LOL I think an Army deserter and a Marine deserter would mix like oil and water.

Sort of like a guy that drives a Kawasaki motorcycle pairing off with a gang that drives Harleys.:D

I have never heard of Mexican Army deserters ganging up. I haven't even read about any particular ethnic group being deserters.

Do you have a link?

imoo [/*]

Army and Marines together and act nice to each other? :eek: That will never happen!

I've never heard of this Mexican Army deserters either---wonder if Atlantis will provide us with a link?

jmo :seeya:

[donna]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


LOL I think an Army deserter and a Marine deserter would mix like oil and water.

Sort of like a guy that drives a Kawasaki motorcycle pairing off with a gang that drives Harleys.:D

I have never heard of Mexican Army deserters ganging up. I haven't even read about any particular ethnic group being deserters.

Do you have a link?

imoo [/*]

GB, I just do not see this either!
:D

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Jan Powell


I agree, unless there are charges, a sworn statement or a report of some bruising, etc., I think there is a lot of room for debate on this allegation. [/*]

There were two times when Lauterbach did report being the victim of an attack on base between when she reported the sexual assaults and when she disappeared, said Paul Ciccarelli, special agent in charge aboard the base for Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

The first was when her car was keyed in the parking lot of a barracks in May, he said. The second time, she said a man hit her in the face but specifically said the man was not Laurean.

http://www.jdnews.com/articles/lauterbach_54593___article.html/hill_laurean.html

[Jan Powell]

Originally posted by hinman
I never understood this part of the investigation.

Maria gets punched in the face and her car keyed now I think they happened at different times so did she report them separate or together and how long after it happened did she report it?

I would also like to know if the person she told it to saw any bruises.

This is where I get so confused she reported it to one person who told her to report it to someone else?

So was the first person that she told it to not in a postitionto do anything and why could that person not report it to the right individual?

And when I say reported I truly don't know if it was considered reported or not? so please don't yell at me for using reported. I am really confused on this issue. [/*]

Yelling by me would be silly on my part, I don't understand the pecking order to make an official complaint in the MC either. It stands to reason there is one and IMO it would require a specific form (this is the government after all) and a signature to be an official complaint.

I got the impression from the MC press conf that didn't happen. I could be wrong on that too. I just didn't get the warm and fuzzy they took it seriously which may be a shame on them.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Is everything okary now?

Glad to see you're back.

imo:seeya: [/*]

Yes FINALLY! It took from 9:10 last night until 3:20 this afternoon to get the problem resolved! And I had to get a supervisor to fix the issue. I kept being put on hold and then disconnected on TWC's end and I was livid.

(Someone living close by hijacked my wireless connection, put in their password so I couldn't access the 'net! And when or if I ever find out who the who is, they will get an earful of :cuss: 'ing too)

JMO and glad to be back too. :seeya:

[donna]

Originally posted by Jas.S
Anyone who subscribes to the notion that "if he/she had done xyz, he/she would have come up with a better story" should watch Tru TV's new countdown of the stupidest criminals. [/*]

Exactly, Jas!

We keep saying IF this, and IF that (I do too), then this or that would have happened. Murder is not logical, and we cannot come up with a logical scenario that is agreed upon by everyone.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Yes, surely if an adult male punched her in the face she had the bruises to show the MC.

imoo [/*]

If Maria was moved and with her UVA when this happened, surely the UVA would had asked questions! Bruises and/or a black eye can't be hidden all that well either.

JMO

[Maka]

I received the autopsy report and the toxicology report.

It's very, very ........ I have no words.

:(



If you want to get your own copy (please don't if you know you don't take things like this well) you can request through the ME's office online. They'll e-mail you the tox and autopsy reports.

There are a lot of details that will answer questions about adult and baby clothing, the neck wound, the skull fractures, what Maria was wrapped in, etc.

There are also diagrams and the dental comparison report is included.

Gonna spend some time with my kids before they take off for spring break....BBL

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Jas.S


I believe 100% that they were trying to protect the reputation of ML at that time.

Reported them to someone=told her mother

I found that very suspicious, too. That it just could not have happened.

And I was very glad that they did not give any more details and did as they should have.

IMO [/*]

Didn't a friend or someone who lived in Maria's barracks room also say that she was aware of these incidents?

JMO

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Maka
I received the autopsy report and the toxicology report.

It's very, very ........ I have no words.

:(



If you want to get your own copy (please don't if you know you don't take things like this well) you can request through the ME's office online. They'll e-mail you the tox and autopsy reports.

There are a lot of details that will answer questions about adult and baby clothing, the neck wound, the skull fractures, what Maria was wrapped in, etc.

There are also diagrams and the dental comparison report is included.

Gonna spend some time with my kids before they take off for spring break....BBL [/*]

NCME, Chapel Hill, correct?

TY for the information Maka!

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by Maka
I received the autopsy report and the toxicology report.

It's very, very ........ I have no words.

:(



If you want to get your own copy (please don't if you know you don't take things like this well) you can request through the ME's office online. They'll e-mail you the tox and autopsy reports.

There are a lot of details that will answer questions about adult and baby clothing, the neck wound, the skull fractures, what Maria was wrapped in, etc.

There are also diagrams and the dental comparison report is included.

Gonna spend some time with my kids before they take off for spring break....BBL [/*]

Maka, if you're going to put it in your signature line, why not put it on a free hosting account and link it in the links thread?:confused:

jmo

[nuttintodo]

This is the website for the NC Medical Examiner's Office in Chapel Hill:

http://www.ocme.unc.edu/index.shtml

[donna]

Can someone get the ME report and post the link to it? I would like to see it even if it does make me sick.

[donna]

Thank you both for posting the link!

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Maka
I received the autopsy report and the toxicology report.

It's very, very ........ I have no words.

:(



If you want to get your own copy (please don't if you know you don't take things like this well) you can request through the ME's office online. They'll e-mail you the tox and autopsy reports.

There are a lot of details that will answer questions about adult and baby clothing , the neck wound, the skull fractures, what Maria was wrapped in, etc.

There are also diagrams and the dental comparison report is included.

Gonna spend some time with my kids before they take off for spring break....BBL [/*]

Thanks, Maka. What intrigues me is what I've highlighted in red in your post above. I wonder what that means, or can you expand? If the baby was NOT born, why clothes or were clothes dumped over the bodies? TIA

ETA ~ Now that this is available, IMO, the ME or LE should have a PC, since it obvious that the ME"s office will be inundated with requests. Anyone else agree?

[donna]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


Thanks, Maka. What intrigues me is what I've highlighted in red in your post above. I wonder what that means, or can you expand? If the baby was NOT born, why clothes or were clothes dumped over the bodies? TIA

ETA ~ Now that this is available, IMO, the ME or LE should have a PC, since it obvious that the ME"s office will be inundated with requests. Anyone else agree? [/*]

I certainly agree with you, Lynn!

[hinman]

WHen requesting the documents do I put the 15 as date of death and also what county is this in?

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by hinman
WHen requesting the documents do I put the 15 as date of death and also what county is this in? [/*]

Onslow County .... December 14th would be my take on it.

[hinman]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


Onslow County .... December 14th would be my take on it. [/*]Thanks Lynn I thought of onslow county right after I posted that, Blonde moment

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


Thanks, Maka. What intrigues me is what I've highlighted in red in your post above. I wonder what that means, or can you expand? If the baby was NOT born, why clothes or were clothes dumped over the bodies? TIA

ETA ~ Now that this is available, IMO, the ME or LE should have a PC, since it obvious that the ME"s office will be inundated with requests. Anyone else agree? [/*]

I agree Lynn, very intriguing. Where the heck is the press/media on this, we should be having updates on GVS about it. I think I'll drop Greta a line and ask her to get on the ball.

[donna]

Lynn, is this report something that can be placed in some section on this board? When I requested the document, I got the impression it would be tomorrow before I would get it.

Can anyone who already has this document share it with me?

Before it is over, we are going to have to hear many things we will not want to hear. We may have to hear some of the truths of this case we will not like.

This is an important document - sickening or not!

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


Onslow County .... December 14th would be my take on it. [/*]

I put 12/14 OR 12/15 just to make sure.

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by donna
Lynn, is this report something that can be placed in some section on this board? When I requested the document, I got the impression it would be tomorrow before I would get it.

Can anyone who already has this document share it with me?

Before it is over, we are going to have to hear many things we will not want to hear. We may have to hear some of the truths of this case we will not like.

This is an important document - sickening or not! [/*]

I'm sure it can. When the autopsy report was made public for Melinda Duckett (mother of missing toddler Trenton Duckett) one of the posters provided a link to the actual ME's report for ALL posters to read. JMO

[hinman]

Originally posted by Jas.S
From the several of us who have asked for it now, the first one who gets it emailed to him/her should post it here? Or link to it?

Agreed? [/*]Deal.

[donna]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


I'm sure it can. When the autopsy report was made public for Melinda Duckett (mother of missing toddler Trenton Duckett) one of the posters provided a link to the actual ME's report for ALL posters to read. JMO [/*]

Thank you, Lynn!

Captain Sutherland had stated in the answers to our first round of questions that the clothing would be something that would be admitted in trial. WOW

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Jas.S
The case mgr emailed me and told me if I had a request in the system that they would email the report.

But there is something at the website that says it will take 24 hrs to send the report? [/*]

I think that's by mail Jas.

JMO