Saturday-03/08/08-a.m.

[henry]

good morning - well we're on day 58 and a friendly reminder to spring forward tonite. i'm really stretching for opening remarks, but here it goes.



i also did some googling last nite for "selective hearing" and "selective reading" and found the following links:

http://www.southampton.liu.edu/fw/portfolio_resource_guide/g6.htm
&
http://www.leaderu.com/cl-institute/habits/habit5.html
maybe we can get a group discount on this book :)

edit . . . i printed out yesterday's 1st page & showed it to dh . . . his 1st question was . . . what's JMO? his 2nd . . . i don't have a clue about what you're talking about . . . the rest of the posts he LHAO.

[crymeariver2006]

Another big day of college surfing around here. Hopefully it won't rain all day again today.

If any news on this case breaks, I'll have to swipe some poor kid's laptop and come here to get the scoop.

:D

[henry]

good morning AB - just took off my flack jacket . . . not touching decisions without a 10' pole & with it on . . . sorry :cool:

[Regina.Lampert]

Good morning.

I would love if Captain Sutherland would expand on his answer to this question:

5) Is there any evidence that shows contact between Laurean and Maria prior to Maria's arrival at the Laurean home? (I'm sure you can't answer this directly but the posters would just like a yes or no answer)

Yes

My follow-up question would be "Was this contact consensual or non consensual?

[caejde]

Good morning everyone. We all just woke up in my house! Hardly ever sleep this late. Waiting on coffee and then going to join my husband and kids for a movie. I'll catch up on last nights posts and be around off and on this morning!

[bkwits]

Mornin' :seeya:

Did I miss anything last night? I was kind of in and out. I'm better today.

[JanDoe]

.
Good morning:seeya:

I want to post these words by Rick....

"I will say again that if we develop probable cause that anyone else was involved before or after the fact, we will charge that person in relation to this crime. To this point, that has not occurred."

"This is an ongoing investigation."

[bkwits]

If you are implying that Ctina is involved in the murders or the covering up of the crime, I am having an increasingly difficult time of seeing that.

That being said, I still find it difficult to believe that she couldn't have suspected something before that conversation in the car on the way to the attorney's office. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by JanDoe
.
Good morning:seeya:

I want to post these words by Rick....

"I will say again that if we develop probable cause that anyone else was involved before or after the fact, we will charge that person in relation to this crime. To this point, that has not occurred."

"This is an ongoing investigation." [/*]

Good Morning Jan.

Doesn't look like many are on this board today. Maybe they are out enjoying the weather if it is nice where they are.

There is absolutely no rush in this case concerning Christina Laurean. They have actually had more valuable time to investigate before an arrest has been made as Laurean hasn't even been brought back or even arrested and arraigned.

It is so much more advantageous for LE to have her talking than clamming up. I have full confidence that they know what they are doing and that is why neither Captain Sutherland nor the DA has come out and ruled Christina out and they won't imo because they haven't ruled her out as participating during or after this crime.

It is evidence to me they want more than anything to be able to see if Laurean will talk when he is returned even if it is with his lawyer advising him. To me this thing will really heat up once he is in custody of the OCSD.

And if they are going to make a plea deal with her that will not happen now until all evidence is known and participants have made plea deals the day before they are expected to testify.

So much is to be learned about the true involvement of this woman who was determined to stand by her man.

imoo

[henry]

good morning gentlebreeze . . . you bring up an interesting point . . . will the fbi get 1st crack at interviewing/interrogating cesar when caught . . . or will it be ocsd personnel . . . or will it be the mc?

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky


Henry, I keep going to the fact Cesar does not have to talk with anyone and I have my doubts he will. He will certainly have an attorney.

JMO [/*]

He already has one or more attorneys, doesn't he?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by henry
good morning gentlebreeze . . . you bring up an interesting point . . . will the fbi get 1st crack at interviewing/interrogating cesar when caught . . . or will it be ocsd personnel . . . or will it be the mc? [/*]

The OCSD will have first dibs, Henry. They are the lead agency in this case. The other agencies will assist if they ask them to do so. I think the MC will stand down when he is first brought back and may or may not bring charges later after the State trial.

imoo:seeya:

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by Chicky


I will continue to go by CS answer regarding Christina. If they had probable cause she would be charged. They don't have probable cause she was involved, and I doubt they will have any in the future. Straight forward answer from CS is how I see it.

JMO [/*]

Hey Chicky, I agree. You know that. LOL. Good morning all! :seeya:

Interesting post earlier by Cryme.....said that RS couldn't say much because maybe "the enemy" (Christina) was reading here or posting. :tongue:

So regardless of what is said about Christina by RS, it's going to be spun, IMO.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky


Yes, he has, but he may change or get another attorney regarding these charges.
He has been assigned a public defender attorney who does specialize in this type of case if I am not mistaken.

All I am saying is once in custody, he will make a decision on an attorney who will be defending him in this criminal case and no one will be able to interrogate him without him agreeing to it.

I am also just saying, I doubt he will.

JMO [/*]

ITA, unless he accepts a plea deal. IMO

[bkwits]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Hey Chicky, I agree. You know that. LOL. Good morning all! :seeya:

Interesting post earlier by Cryme.....said that RS couldn't say much because maybe "the enemy" (Christina) was reading here or posting. :tongue:

So regardless of what is said about Christina by RS, it's going to be spun, IMO. [/*]

Hey SS, I'm suffering from brain fog, but RS didn't characterize Ctina as "the enemy" did he?

[SavannahStar]

Originally posted by bkwits


Hey SS, I'm suffering from brain fog, but RS didn't characterize Ctina as "the enemy" did he? [/*]

No, I'm sorry if I gave that impression. That came from a post by Oregongal and followed up by a post by Cryme....on last night's thread.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


He already has one or more attorneys, doesn't he? [/*]

I would imagine when he is returned he will have one lead attorney who specializes in serious murder cases such as this one.

What some people may not know is a DA or ADA's in his office talks with the defendant's attorney many times.

If his attorney thinks his client knows anything that may benefit his client he would be remiss if he did not make the DA aware of it.

imoo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I would imagine when he is returned he will have one lead attorney who specializes in serious murder cases such as this one.

What some people may not know is a DA or ADA's in his office talks with the defendant's attorney many times.

If his attorney thinks his client knows anything that may benefit his client he would be remiss if he did not make the DA aware of it.

imoo [/*]

Absolutely GB. There is plenty of time and investigating to do in the quest for an accomplice IMHO.

Rick Sutherland would be remiss too if he claimed anyone innocent at this time and I think that's why we have never heard him say so IMO. :shrug:

Housekeeping please.

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by henry
good morning gentlebreeze . . . you bring up an interesting point . . . will the fbi get 1st crack at interviewing/interrogating cesar when caught . . . or will it be ocsd personnel . . . or will it be the mc? [/*]

Remember when D. A. Dewey Hudson said this when he learned that Wally Paramore was assigned as Laurean's provisional counsel?

"No one in my office has ever seen anything like this," he said. "All indications are that (Laurean) has already retained three lawyers, so why do they feel they feel compelled to spend taxpayer money for someone who has not asked them for help ... who has not been arrested and not had a first appearance."

Paramore said there was nothing unusual about his being preliminarily assigned to be a capital defender.

Here's an article following up with D.A. Hudson meeting with Atty. Paramore:

Hudson said he had spoken to Paramore on Tuesday, and Paramore did not tell him it was usual practice. He said Paramore gave him the impression the move was highly unusual.

Hudson said he feels one of the reasons this has been done is to prevent authorities from interrogating Laurean once he is apprehended.

http://www.enctoday.com/articles/counsel_54592_jdn__article.html/provisional_hurley.html

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky


What the defendant's attorney says to the DA is only what his client allows. There is an attorney client privilege.

JMO [/*]

Right, but what's to prevent CL voluntarily spilling his guts when he is first apprehended (please God).

[CANDYKISSES]

I believe Cesar himself knows not to talk until his lawyer is present and identified by this time. JMO tho.

I don't in any way take it to mean his attorney will not be talking with LLE. JMO tho. :shrug:

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky



Thanks Lynn, that is exactly what I was trying to say.

I really have my doubts anyone will be interrogating CL.

JMO [/*]

ITA, but I wonder if Mexican authorities arrest him, if they will offer something similar to Miranda, and if not will what CL says, if anything, will be told to US LE. I also wonder if Mexican LE will question him.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


Absolutely GB. There is plenty of time and investigating to do in the quest for an accomplice IMHO.

Rick Sutherland would be remiss too if he claimed anyone innocent at this time and I think that's why we have never heard him say so IMO. :shrug:

Housekeeping please. [/*]

Oops Candy! I think I need a housemaid. lol

BRB!

imoo:seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


Remember when D. A. Dewey Hudson said this when he learned that Wally Paramore was assigned as Laurean's provisional counsel?

"No one in my office has ever seen anything like this," he said. "All indications are that (Laurean) has already retained three lawyers, so why do they feel they feel compelled to spend taxpayer money for someone who has not asked them for help ... who has not been arrested and not had a first appearance."

Paramore said there was nothing unusual about his being preliminarily assigned to be a capital defender.

Here's an article following up with D.A. Hudson meeting with Atty. Paramore:

Hudson said he had spoken to Paramore on Tuesday, and Paramore did not tell him it was usual practice. He said Paramore gave him the impression the move was highly unusual.

Hudson said he feels one of the reasons this has been done is to prevent authorities from interrogating Laurean once he is apprehended.

http://www.enctoday.com/articles/counsel_54592_jdn__article.html/provisional_hurley.html [/*]

Thanks Lynn.

Yes Hudson "feels" but he does not know. I thought the lawyer spoke out and said it is not unusual and he has done this about three times in one week before. Maybe it wasn't Paramore but another lawyer that does this same kind of work. There was a link here to it at one time.

imoo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky



Even if something like that happens, which I doubt, as I don't think a Supreme Court ruling in our country regarding miranda rights would be utilized by mexico, nothing from that would be allowed in our courts.
I also doubt CL will talk.

JMO [/*]

I also doubt that CL talks voluntarily to anyone. He is one cool character, it seems. I was just wishful thinking. JMO

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Thanks Lynn.

Yes Hudson "feels" but he does not know. I thought the lawyer spoke out and said it is not unusual and he has done this about three times in one week before. Maybe it wasn't Paramore but another lawyer that does this same kind of work. There was a link here to it at one time.

imoo [/*]

It wasn't Paramore who spoke but Bob Hurley from the Idigent Defense Services who assigned Wally Paramore to represent CAL.

The article is here: http://www.jdnews.com/articles/counsel_54592___article.html/provisional_hurley.html

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Thanks Lynn.

Yes Hudson "feels" but he does not know. I thought the lawyer spoke out and said it is not unusual and he has done this about three times in one week before. Maybe it wasn't Paramore but another lawyer that does this same kind of work. There was a link here to it at one time.

imoo [/*]

I remember that as well and believe that when Christina and Cesar are back on the same soil we are going to see some fireworks IMO.

This time has afforded the authorities the ability to thoroughly check things out and don't forget each time she has been questioned as a cooperating witness, the interview is placed in the file. In the end, all those interviews will be compared to the stories that came out in the beginning and the stories that are being told in the end IMO.

In the Nelson trial, their cooperating witness had seven different accounts before all was said and done. They would call her back in as more information became available, and she was a cop too. I believe she moved to a plea deal the week of trial IIRC. JMO tho.

I can see something like this on the horizon for Christina and Cesar especially given the remark that came out about feeling like he couldn't have done all that in such a short time.

Patience is a true virtue IMHO. :patriot: Ilook forward to his capture and return to NC.

ALL JMO.

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


~snip
Doesn't look like many are on this board today. Maybe they are out enjoying the weather if it is nice where they are. [/*]
I'm here, and have been since beginning of thread. Need to do a few things today so will be in and out..............beautiful day here!

[Jan Powell]

The provisional warrant authorizes Mexican police to follow leads and to arrest the 21-year-old Laurean --

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/28/missing.marine/?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCText

I don't think an arrest automatically means CL goes anywhere just where the battle to extradite him begins. He has Mexican citizenship too and I expect a prolonged hearing on extradition.

IMO, it'll require much more to extradite him than it took to get a GJ to indict him.

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Chicky


I tend to agree with you on this. We know he can waive extradition and be brought right back, but he just may not do that.

This is a good area for research. What happens when he is placed in the jail there? We know the US has already taken the DP off the table.

CL is a Mexican citizen in Mexico's eyes, just not in ours.

Anyway, how do the Mexican courts work in this regard? Do they have attorneys that are assigned to indigent prisoners like us? Or does he need a lot of money to fight extradition?

I wonder if he has grounds to fight extradition. He doesn't have the DP as grounds now.

I am not a good researcher at all.

Just saying........

JMO [/*]

The possibility that Laurean may still retain his Mexican citizenship might complicate extradition though, said Joseph Gutheinz, a criminal defense attorney who teaches criminal law at a college in Alvin, Texas.

(SNIP)

Even if Laurean did renounce his citizenship, the Mexican government still most likely would consider him a national, Gutheinz said.

"Mexico interprets nationality liberally to include those with dual citizenship and even those who have a Hispanic surname," he said, adding that Mexican authorities may choose to keep Laurean and try him there for Lauterbach's death.

Summerlin said the goal right now is to locate Laurean, but once that happens, the U.S. government wants to see him returned to stand trial in Onslow County.

http://www.enctoday.com/news/laurean_54732_jdn__article.html/mexico_fbi.html

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


It wasn't Paramore who spoke but Bob Hurley from the Indigent Defense Services who assigned Wally Paramore to represent CAL.

The article is here: http://www.jdnews.com/articles/counsel_54592___article.html/provisional_hurley.html [/*]

Thank you, nuttin!

I knew I had remembered reading that.

Hope you are having a great day!

imoo:seeya:

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky



Thanks Lynn,

I do remember discussion on if Mexico would keep him and try him there. That is a rare thing and I think that would only be used for someone extremely important to Mexico like maybe the president of Mexico or something like that. I disregarded them doing that with CL only because he is not important to them for any reason and the money involved with that country in doing a trial. Another words, they don't want him imo.

Perhaps he could use that in fighting extradition though.

JMO [/*]

Oh, I think Mexico will extradite CL if he is arrested there, but it make take a long time. IMO

[bkwits]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chicky



Well, like I said in a previous post here, I think it will depend on money. Does Mexico give anyone arrested attorneys if they are indigent like our country or do they have to pay for an attorney? I have noticed that people who have money makes extradition take way longer. Does CL's family, if an attorney has to be paid there, want to do that or save the money for a high power attorney in the US?

Even if extradition is challenged, it will be lost sooner or later, so is it worth it?

Do you follow what I mean? If Mexico does give them an attorney, how good is the attorney for free, and how long would that take?

JMO [/*][/QUOTE

Chicky, I found this case while looking for another. This guy Garcia-Gomez was an illegal alien who shot a cop in Denver. He fled to Mexico. He was extradited and brought back to Denver for trial within a few months. This quote was rather interesting because of what we had discussed.

"It is expected that the defense will argue that Gomez-Garcia's confession in Mexico was made under duress and should not be considered valid."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9793221/detail.html

[bkwits]

Originally posted by bkwits
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chicky



Well, like I said in a previous post here, I think it will depend on money. Does Mexico give anyone arrested attorneys if they are indigent like our country or do they have to pay for an attorney? I have noticed that people who have money makes extradition take way longer. Does CL's family, if an attorney has to be paid there, want to do that or save the money for a high power attorney in the US?

Even if extradition is challenged, it will be lost sooner or later, so is it worth it?

Do you follow what I mean? If Mexico does give them an attorney, how good is the attorney for free, and how long would that take?

JMO [/*][/QUOTE

Chicky, I found this case while looking for another. This guy Garcia-Gomez was an illegal alien who shot a cop in Denver. He fled to Mexico. He was extradited and brought back to Denver for trial within a few months. This quote was rather interesting because of what we had discussed.

"It is expected that the defense will argue that Gomez-Garcia's confession in Mexico was made under duress and should not be considered valid."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9793221/detail.html [/*]

BTW The accused was tried in Sept 06 and got 80 years.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by bkwits
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chicky



Well, like I said in a previous post here, I think it will depend on money. Does Mexico give anyone arrested attorneys if they are indigent like our country or do they have to pay for an attorney? I have noticed that people who have money makes extradition take way longer. Does CL's family, if an attorney has to be paid there, want to do that or save the money for a high power attorney in the US?

Even if extradition is challenged, it will be lost sooner or later, so is it worth it?

Do you follow what I mean? If Mexico does give them an attorney, how good is the attorney for free, and how long would that take?

JMO [/*][/QUOTE

Chicky, I found this case while looking for another. This guy Garcia-Gomez was an illegal alien who shot a cop in Denver. He fled to Mexico. He was extradited and brought back to Denver for trial within a few months. This quote was rather interesting because of what we had discussed.

"It is expected that the defense will argue that Gomez-Garcia's confession in Mexico was made under duress and should not be considered valid."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9793221/detail.html [/*]

That guy was convicted and sentenced to 80 years in prison, so hopefully if CL is found in Mexico and confesses, it won't pass muster in his trial.

Also, that guy's grandmother turned him in to Mexican authorities. The reward was $100,000 - which is why it is so important IMO that the reward for CL's capture be increased. Unfortunately, the grandmother did not get the reward - which I think sets a horrible precedent for people in Mexico turning in their own relatives. I could see CL's family there saying "Why should I turn him in - we won't get the reward".

JMO

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas

That guy was convicted and sentenced to 80 years in prison, so hopefully if CL is found in Mexico and confesses, it won't pass muster in his trial.
[/*]

Just to clarify my own post - I meant that a confession in Mexico under duress as with that other case would hopefully not be a credible defense by CL's lawyers here at his trial.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


That guy was convicted and sentenced to 80 years in prison, so hopefully if CL is found in Mexico and confesses, it won't pass muster in his trial.

Also, that guy's grandmother turned him in to Mexican authorities. The reward was $100,000 - which is why it is so important IMO that the reward for CL's capture be increased. Unfortunately, the grandmother did not get the reward - which I think sets a horrible precedent for people in Mexico turning in their own relatives. I could see ML's family there saying "Why should I turn him in - we won't get the reward".

JMO [/*]

Thanks gp, I wasn't sure how he was caught. You meant to say CL's family, didn't you?

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by bkwits


Thanks gp, I wasn't sure how he was caught. You meant to say CL's family, didn't you? [/*]

lol, yes - I just edited it....

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky
Does anyone know why the grandmother didn't get the $100,000 reward? I wonder why the guy only got 80 years and I wonder if he is eligible to get a parole?

I sure hope CL does get LWOP. [/*]

Crimestoppers paid about 50K to others who turned in tips. Grandma didn't get anything from Crimestoppers because she didn't call them with a tip. I don't know why LE didn't give her something.


"Gomez-Garcia was convicted last month of shooting and killing Detective Donnie Young in May of 2005 after he was kicked out of a party. He was found guilty on the charge of second-degree murder.

"Gomez-Garcia was also convicted of attempted second-degree murder for shooting Young's partner Jack Bishop."

http://archive.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=7fe0c8ad-0abe-421a-014e-45d65c7*31c7&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

The article goes on to state that LE had to waive First Degree charges to get him extradited. He got the maximu of 48 years for 2nd degree murder, and 32 for attempted murder.

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by Chicky
Does anyone know why the grandmother didn't get the $100,000 reward? I wonder why the guy only got 80 years and I wonder if he is eligible to get a parole?

I sure hope CL does get LWOP. [/*]

I believe it was because she went to Mexican authorities instead of calling Crimestoppers...

At CL's age, even 60-70 years would be enough to keep him in prison til he died, IMO. If we have trouble extraditing him (assuming he is found), the DA could take LWOP off the table and give him enough years to make sure he never gets out.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by bkwits


Crimestoppers paid about 50K to others who turned in tips. Grandma didn't get anything from Crimestoppers because she didn't call them with a tip. I don't know why LE didn't give her something.


"Gomez-Garcia was convicted last month of shooting and killing Detective Donnie Young in May of 2005 after he was kicked out of a party. He was found guilty on the charge of second-degree murder.

"Gomez-Garcia was also convicted of attempted second-degree murder for shooting Young's partner Jack Bishop."

http://archive.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=7fe0c8ad-0abe-421a-014e-45d65c7*31c7&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

The article goes on to state that LE had to waive First Degree charges to get him extradited. He got the maximu of 48 years for 2nd degree murder, and 32 for attempted murder. [/*]



Sorry that link doesn work. Try this and type in Gomez-Garcia trial

http://archive.9news.com/

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky
Does anyone know why the grandmother didn't get the $100,000 reward? I wonder why the guy only got 80 years and I wonder if he is eligible to get a parole?

I sure hope CL does get LWOP. [/*]

It is my understanding that LWOP is off the table in extradition from Mexico. It is considered cruel and unusual or something like that. It could have changed but I don't think it has. JMO

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by Chicky



We had a link here that it was changed in 2005 I think. I just don't know where to find the link. JMO

I'll look for it. Until I find it, it is still up in the air because I am not sure. [/*]

I remember seeing that here, Chicky - I believe it was changed very recently. I will go look for the link, too.

[baywench]

Hi everyone....two things

1. I really believe that CL is a coward and will take his own life or sing like a canary. I think he is a bully but they usually cave when up against someone their own size.

2. I would think that the Mexican authorities would also be affected by the fact this crime is so heinous. The brutal slaughter of a pregnant woman and the ulitimate murder of your own child is not something I would think they would want anything to do with in terms of keeping him in Mexico. Particularly with a written confession...albeit self-serving and incomplete. JMO

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Chicky


That's true, and there are ways of getting any paroles denied. Relatives of Maria could show up at those hearings and make sure of it.

I believe Mexico allows LWOP now. There was a link posted here about the change that occurred in 2005 I think.

Anyway, let's think about how he will be treated in jail. They will have to keep him in confinement. If they don't, other inmates frown upon child killers and he won't last long.

Either way, confinement sucks also.

JMO [/*]

From 2001 to 2006, Mexico would not allow extradition when life without parole was a possibility, due to a Mexican Supreme Court ruling that life in prison is cruel and unusual punishment.

However, Maria Cristina Oropeza Zorrilla, a spokeswoman at the Mexican Embassy in Washington, D.C., said that is no longer the case. She said Mexico would extradite a fugitive to face life without the possibility of parole.

"In 2006, the Mexican Supreme Court issued a ruling modifying a 2001 decision regarding extradition of fugitives who could face life imprisonment," she said. "In its 2006 decision, the court said that life imprisonment is not an unusual punishment as provided by Article 22 of our constitution."

Hudson said he talked with the Department of Justice about Mexico's stance on extradition and felt comfortable he could get Laurean back to serve life without parole if found guilty of killing Lauterbach.

http://www.jdnews.com/news/laurean_54556___article.html/mexico_lauterbach.html

[Jan Powell]

Originally posted by Chicky


That's true, and there are ways of getting any paroles denied. Relatives of Maria could show up at those hearings and make sure of it.

I believe Mexico allows LWOP now. There was a link posted here about the change that occurred in 2005 I think.

Anyway, let's think about how he will be treated in jail. They will have to keep him in confinement. If they don't, other inmates frown upon child killers and he won't last long.

Either way, confinement sucks also.

JMO [/*]

Chicky, I also believe it was 2005 that LWOP was ruled constitutional in Mexico. I believe it was a 6-5 decision.

IMO, if there is any fight to extradite (and I think there will be) it will be based on his dual citizenship and whether they think it is clear cut that CL was the actual murderer.

I could be completely wrong but I think Mexico could see the forensics in this case sooner than we see them in a US court and it will be in an extradition hearing.

They could choose to try him in Mexico on lesser charges too.

[Regina.Lampert]

How the heck would it work if Mexico wants to try him there? We have all the evidence. Would we send a prosecutor with the known evidence down there to assist?

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


From 2001 to 2006, Mexico would not allow extradition when life without parole was a possibility, due to a Mexican Supreme Court ruling that life in prison is cruel and unusual punishment.

However, Maria Cristina Oropeza Zorrilla, a spokeswoman at the Mexican Embassy in Washington, D.C., said that is no longer the case. She said Mexico would extradite a fugitive to face life without the possibility of parole.

"In 2006, the Mexican Supreme Court issued a ruling modifying a 2001 decision regarding extradition of fugitives who could face life imprisonment," she said. "In its 2006 decision, the court said that life imprisonment is not an unusual punishment as provided by Article 22 of our constitution."

Hudson said he talked with the Department of Justice about Mexico's stance on extradition and felt comfortable he could get Laurean back to serve life without parole if found guilty of killing Lauterbach.

http://www.jdnews.com/news/laurean_54556___article.html/mexico_lauterbach.html [/*]

Thanks, Lynn. I also found this article that says:

"Mexico's Supreme Court has struck down a constitutional provision banning life imprisonment with no chance of parole. The ruling means Mexico will be able to extradite wanted criminals to places in the United States where they face life without parole in jail... Correspondents say the decision also means that Mexico could itself introduce life imprisonment.... But the Supreme Court also ruled constitutional a modification of the penal code in Chihuahua state to allow for life sentences in murder and kidnapping cases. Other Mexican states could now follow Chihuahua's example."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4483746.stm

So, even if Mexico decides they won't extradite CL because he is a Mexican citizen by birth, he could still face LWOP in Mexico (although it is still very rare there according to this article). IMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


Just to clarify my own post - I meant that a confession in Mexico under duress as with that other case would hopefully not be a credible defense by CL's lawyers here at his trial. [/*]

I can't imagine how that could be handled. I CAN imagine that if Cesar was apprehended in Mexico & was interrogated by Mexican authorities, he would confess. They do have their ways...


JMO

[Lynn Gweeny]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert
How the heck would it work if Mexico wants to try him there? We have all the evidence. Would we send a prosecutor with the known evidence down there to assist? [/*]

Article IV prosecutions - using Mexican law

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_6_71/ai_89079419

http://www.escapingjustice.com/extrafpo.htm

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/AG_Publications/txts/article4_manual.htm#chap4

[bkwits]

Thanks everyone for clearing up the LWOP extradition issue. I am very happy to be wrong in this case. hammer

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by SavannahStar


Hey Chicky, I agree. You know that. LOL. Good morning all! :seeya:

Interesting post earlier by Cryme.....said that RS couldn't say much because maybe "the enemy" (Christina) was reading here or posting. :tongue:

So regardless of what is said about Christina by RS, it's going to be spun, IMO. [/*]

Yes I did post that in response to Oregon's post. My point being that all of us are complete strangers to Rick Sutherland, even to each other. I can't imagine that he would offer up that "why yes, we have oodles of evidence against Christina" not knowing if she (or a family member) might be reading and or posting here.

Was there a problem with the post?

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Lynn Gweeny


Article IV prosecutions - using Mexican law

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_6_71/ai_89079419

http://www.escapingjustice.com/extrafpo.htm

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/AG_Publications/txts/article4_manual.htm#chap4 [/*]

Thank you Lynn. From the first link:

Mexican officials emphasize that their government does not intend to provide a safe haven for violent fugitives and will not allow Mexican nationals to flee with impunity from the criminal prosecution of any country's jurisdiction.

Good to know.

:patriot:

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


Thank you Lynn. From the first link:

Mexican officials emphasize that their government does not intend to provide a safe haven for violent fugitives and will not allow Mexican nationals to flee with impunity from the criminal prosecution of any country's jurisdiction.

Good to know.

:patriot: [/*]

Yes, we have been having a good discussion about the law in this case. Let's not get sidetracked. IMO

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Jas.S
re the difference between probable cause and suspicion:

http://donsobservs.blogspot.com/2006/08/probable-cause-v-reasonable-suspicion.html

Probable Cause:

The most widely held common definition would be "a reasonable belief that a crime has been committed" and that the person is linked to the crime with the same degree of certainty. An alternative definition has been proposed, "reason to believe that an injury had criminal cause", which is claimed to be more protective of individual rights as was intended by the authors of the Bill of Rights. See the critique below.

In the context of warrants, the Oxford Companion to American Law defines probable cause as "information sufficient to warrant a prudent person's belief that the wanted individual had committed a crime (for an arrest warrant) or that evidence of a crime or contraband would be found in a search (for a search warrant)." "Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction. Even hearsay can supply probable cause if it is from a reliable source or is supported by other evidence.

Reasonable Suspicion:

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law, that a person has been, is, or is about to be, engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences. It is the basis for an investigatory or Terry stop by the police and requires less evidence than probable cause, the legal requirement for arrests and warrants. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard, in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be, engaged in criminal activity; such suspicion is not a mere hunch. Police may also, based solely on reasonable suspicion of a threat to safety, frisk a suspect for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. A combination of particular facts, even if individually innocuous, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion. [/*]

This relates to what or whom in this case?

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Jas.S


LOL at the "why yes we have oodles of evidence."

As if.

He is not going to give any answer to anything that has not already been reported. [/*]

Especially on an anonymous message board.

I expected him to say nothing more, nothing less than what he said.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Jas.S


No idea.

I believe that Cardinal asked what the difference was last night or this morning and I was merely answering that question. [/*]

Well they were discussing Mexican law, not US law.

Please try and keep up. :punch:

:D

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by Chicky


Cryme,

I am of the distinct impression he does not give his answers with the thought of who would be reading on a message board. What he says he means.

He said if they had any probable cause on Christina she would be charged.

That is a strong statement. I was surprised at that statement. All he had to say is she is a cooperating witness like has been said. This is stronger and a step higher. No matter how that is twisted, it will remain the same. I see no hidden meanings.

I feel if they have no probable cause now they will have none in the future and that includes anything CL says.

JMO [/*]

Whatever you say. :seeya:

[Jan Powell]

"Mexican authorities rarely refuse extradition of an American citizen to the United States. Likewise, the United States commonly returns Mexican nationals for crimes committed in that country. However, complications with the extradition treaty arise when:

Mexico is requested to extradite its own nationals. Extradition may not always be a viable option for American prosecutors seeking to bring a Mexican criminal to justice."

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/AG_Publications/txts/article4_manual.htm#chap4

Lynn posted this earlier, it's long but an interesting read. (Thanks Lynn for the link, you are the BEST.)

Also from the Lynn's link above:

"However, like most extradition agreements, the treaty between the United States and Mexico does not obligate either party to hand over its own nationals. In recent years, extraditions of Mexican nationals to face trial in the United States have been the exception rather than the norm."

Also:

Prosecutors who are reluctant to forego domestic prosecution of Mexican nationals should be aware that extradition is not a quicker, easier alternative to preparing for prosecution under Mexican law. An extradition request calls for equally thorough case preparation and requires the use of official diplomatic channels. A request to Mexico under the United States-Mexico Extradition Treaty must be approved by the United States Department of Justice and tendered by the Department of State.

These things make me think CL was advised to go "home".

IMO, Mexico may see the forensics before the US Courts do.

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Yes I did post that in response to Oregon's post. My point being that all of us are complete strangers to Rick Sutherland, even to each other. I can't imagine that he would offer up that "why yes, we have oodles of evidence against Christina" not knowing if she (or a family member) might be reading and or posting here.
~snipped[/*]
I not only couldn't imagine, I would be horrified is RS did so on of all places the Internet :)

RS's words will be guarded in any communication he makes whether on the Internet or to the Media.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Jas.S


That is not what RS said in his response.

Neither did he say that they have no probable cause.

What he actually said is:

30) If we had probable cause that Mrs. Laurean was involved, she would be charged. [/*]

Has Christina been charged? The answer is no. So, it logically follows that there is NO PROBABLE CAUSE.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Jas.S


Exactly!

As if he is just gonna up and give anyone all their information, forensic results and evidence. Or say whether or not someone is a suspect. [/*]

How many times and in how many ways does LLE need to say that Christina Laurean is not a suspect in this case?

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by bkwits


How many times and in how many ways does LLE need to say that Christina Laurean is not a suspect in this case? [/*]

Officially clearing her of any involvement?

Saying their investigation is complete and that Cesar is their only suspect?

[bkwits]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Officially clearing her of any involvement?

Saying their investigation is complete and that Cesar is their only suspect? [/*]

No

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by bkwits


No [/*]

I was only answering your question. I didn't realize it was a yes or no proposition.


:shrug:

[bkwits]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


I was only answering your question. I didn't realize it was a yes or no proposition.


:shrug: [/*]

You asked two questions. My answer to both questions is no.

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by Jas.S


Not at all. That's not logical at all.

While you can infer that no arrest means no probable cause, one cannot conclude that because there is no arrest there is no probable cause.

And that's a fact. [/*]

ITA Jas

Evening, everyone :seeya:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


How many times and in how many ways does LLE need to say that Christina Laurean is not a suspect in this case? [/*]

By coming out and answering the media's question directly by saying that they have ruled her out on having any involvement in these crimes. They have not done so.

Not enough probable cause at this time? No.

Enough probable cause at a later date through further investigation and evidence? Yes, very possible imo.

imoo

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


By coming out and answering the media's question directly by saying that they have ruled her out on having any involvement in these crimes. They have not done so.

Not enough probable cause at this time? No.

Enough probable cause at a later date through further investigation and evidence? Yes, very possible imo.

imoo [/*]

Isn't that what I said?

:shrug:

:D

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by Jas.S


Not at all. That's not logical at all.

While you can infer that no arrest means no probable cause, one cannot conclude that because there is no arrest there is no probable cause.

And that's a fact. [/*]

LOL, the only fact I know for sure is that Captain Sutherland cannot arrest anyone without probable cause and as of this minute Christina has not been arrested, no matter how some like to twist and sway. :D

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert


LOL, the only fact I know for sure is that Captain Sutherland cannot arrest anyone without probable cause and as of this minute Christina has not been arrested, no matter how some like to twist and sway. :D [/*]

As of this minute. :D

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


Isn't that what I said?

:shrug:

:D [/*]

Yes, you sure did. :biggrin:

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


By coming out and answering the media's question directly by saying that they have ruled her out on having any involvement in these crimes. They have not done so.

Not enough probable cause at this time? No.

Enough probable cause at a later date through further investigation and evidence? Yes, very possible imo.

imoo [/*]

But, Ctina is NOT a suspect. LLE has said that over and over.

Anything CAN happen. IMO

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Jas.S
The wonderful thing about logic is that it does not bend, twist or sway. [/*]


What about illogic?

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by Chicky


:lol: Not now, now it's as of this minute.:o [/*]

Those were Regina's words, not mine. I'm glad you find her so amusing. :biggrin:

I haven't heard LE declare Christina "innocent" or say that she is NOT a suspect. I've only heard that she's a "cooperating witness". Interesting euphemism.

[Charlotte]

Forgive me if this has been answered here before (as I've said, I'm new to this case), but my question about Maria's connection to El Paso is whether that whole avenue was a red herring?

Rick Sutherland answered question #30 by stating that they believe Maria was killed on Dec. 14th.
They must have some reason for this belief.

I realize that a ticket agent at the bus station gave an interview to a CNN affiliate, claiming in that interview that he sold Maria the ticket at @ 5:00 p.m. on the 14th, and claiming that she asked if she could leave her car there, but then left with the car.

However, I haven't been able to find any statement from anyone in authority that substantiates this story of the ticket agent's. In fact, it's the opposite -- Sheriff Brown said that the ticket was purchased on Dec. 15th, and the MC's timeline given at the Jan. 15 press conference by Lt. Col. Curtis Hill says the same thing. Hill's statement says that "On Saturday, December 15th, Greyhound bus records reflect a ticket is purchased in LCpl Lauterbach’s name for one way to El Paso, Texas departing that evening."
He doesn't say what time of day the ticket was purchased, but gives the 15th as the date of purchase and the departure time for the bus as the evening of that same date.

If the ticket was indeed purchased a day after her death, it obviously wasn't purchased by her. Perhaps CL bought the ticket in her name in order to make it appear that she was alive and traveling, to throw any search for her off track and off of him? That ticket has caused a lot of speculation as to what her connection to El Paso may have been, but could the answer be that there never was one? :shrug:

[baywench]

Originally posted by bkwits


But, Ctina is NOT a suspect. LLE has said that over and over.

Anything CAN happen. IMO [/*]

Two words for you: Drew Peterson

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Cardinal


Those were Regina's words, not mine. I'm glad you find her so amusing. :biggrin:

I haven't heard LE declare Christina "innocent" or say that she is NOT a suspect. I've only heard that she's a "cooperating witness". Interesting euphemism. [/*]

I personally have never heard LE declare anyone "innocent."

[bkwits]

Originally posted by baywench


Two words for you: Drew Peterson [/*]


I don't understand what you are saying. Drew Peterson has been declared a suspect by ISP for quite a while.

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by bkwits


I personally have never heard LE declare anyone "innocent." [/*]

Neither have I, bk. With the exception of the Duke LAX case. But some seem to be drawing that inference.

JMO

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Charlotte
Forgive me if this has been answered here before (as I've said, I'm new to this case), but my question about Maria's connection to El Paso is whether that whole avenue was a red herring?

Rick Sutherland answered question #30 by stating that they believe Maria was killed on Dec. 14th.
They must have some reason for this belief.

I realize that a ticket agent at the bus station gave an interview to a CNN affiliate, claiming in that interview that he sold Maria the ticket at @ 5:00 p.m. on the 14th, and claiming that she asked if she could leave her car there, but then left with the car.

However, I haven't been able to find any statement from anyone in authority that substantiates this story of the ticket agent's. In fact, it's the opposite -- Sheriff Brown said that the ticket was purchased on Dec. 15th, and the MC's timeline given at the Jan. 15 press conference by Lt. Col. Curtis Hill says the same thing. Hill's statement says that "On Saturday, December 15th, Greyhound bus records reflect a ticket is purchased in LCpl Lauterbach’s name for one way to El Paso, Texas departing that evening."
He doesn't say what time of day the ticket was purchased, but gives the 15th as the date of purchase and the departure time for the bus as the evening of that same date.

If the ticket was indeed purchased a day after her death, it obviously wasn't purchased by her. Perhaps CL bought the ticket in her name in order to make it appear that she was alive and traveling, to throw any search for her off track and off of him? That ticket has caused a lot of speculation as to what her connection to El Paso may have been, but could the answer be that there never was one? :shrug: [/*]

:seeya: Hey Charlotte

There was a lot of confusion about the dates earlier in the case. The accused killer even put the wrong dates in his note.

Maria was last seen and heard from on 12/14. LE believes she was killed on that date. We don't know what information they are relying on.

[henry]

Originally posted by Charlotte
Forgive me if this has been answered here before (as I've said, I'm new to this case), but my question about Maria's connection to El Paso is whether that whole avenue was a red herring?

Rick Sutherland answered question #30 by stating that they believe Maria was killed on Dec. 14th.
They must have some reason for this belief.

I realize that a ticket agent at the bus station gave an interview to a CNN affiliate, claiming in that interview that he sold Maria the ticket at @ 5:00 p.m. on the 14th, and claiming that she asked if she could leave her car there, but then left with the car.

However, I haven't been able to find any statement from anyone in authority that substantiates this story of the ticket agent's. In fact, it's the opposite -- Sheriff Brown said that the ticket was purchased on Dec. 15th, and the MC's timeline given at the Jan. 15 press conference by Lt. Col. Curtis Hill says the same thing. Hill's statement says that "On Saturday, December 15th, Greyhound bus records reflect a ticket is purchased in LCpl Lauterbach’s name for one way to El Paso, Texas departing that evening."
He doesn't say what time of day the ticket was purchased, but gives the 15th as the date of purchase and the departure time for the bus as the evening of that same date.

If the ticket was indeed purchased a day after her death, it obviously wasn't purchased by her. Perhaps CL bought the ticket in her name in order to make it appear that she was alive and traveling, to throw any search for her off track and off of him? That ticket has caused a lot of speculation as to what her connection to El Paso may have been, but could the answer be that there never was one? :shrug: [/*]

iirc (and the link of the video does not work any longer) he (ticket agent) was interviewed & pointed to the computer that has the date purchased as 12/14, and scheduled to be used 12/15 - although, i think, it's good for 5-6 months.

[henry]

Originally posted by bkwits


I personally have never heard LE declare anyone "innocent." [/*]

:seeya: i'm still scratching my head about "cooperating witness" term . . . could that mean that a CW could testify, if it came to trial, for the prosecution?

edit: thank you gb & others for answering my question earlier - one of the links i had not read :eek:

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky


Drew Peterson is a person of interest and Christina is not. Besides, I don't see a connection in the two cases. imo [/*]

Drew Peterson has been declared a "suspect" in Stacy Peterson's disappearance. He may be a "person of interest" in his 3rd wife's homicide. I would have to check on that.

[baywench]

Originally posted by baywench


Two words for you: Drew Peterson [/*]

I thought this tied in with your anything CAN happen. He wasn't initially a person of interest/suspect until there was enough evidence gathered. IMO as I have said before the forensics could probably go both ways. CL will provide the missing pieces when he is captured. Why jump the gun on her now? This JMO you could be absolutely right.

[henry]

Originally posted by Chicky


Henry, I know some of us was thinking she couldn't get a ticket to leave on the 14th so she bought one for the 15th. Do you by any chance remember why we thought that? Maybe to late in the day to get the last bus out on the 14th? [/*]

oh crap . . . that was my favorite video on this case! iirc . . . someone posted the schedule and there was like 1/2 hr. to an 1 hr from when the bus was going to leave (from the time of purchasing ticket) . . . i was under the impression, and i could be wrong, that there was time, although short, to take that bus . . . but no one ever found out if the bus on the 14th was full . . . so , i don't know!

[bkwits]

Originally posted by baywench


I thought this tied in with your anything CAN happen. He wasn't initially a person of interest/suspect until there was enough evidence gathered. IMO as I have said before the forensics could probably go both ways. CL will provide the missing pieces when he is captured. Why jump the gun on her now? This JMO you could be absolutely right. [/*]


Well, if you are comparing Ctina to Drew Peterson, I would disagree that they are comparable.

Stacy P. is missing and no body has been found. He was "suspected" immediately but first called "a person of interest" then upgraded to a "suspect."

There is no other suspect in this case.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Cardinal


Those were Regina's words, not mine. I'm glad you find her so amusing. :biggrin:

I haven't heard LE declare Christina "innocent" or say that she is NOT a suspect. I've only heard that she's a "cooperating witness". Interesting euphemism. [/*]

I have never heard anyone in LE come out and say she is not a suspect but they do attach that darn "cooperating" sign on her every time like she has it plastered to her forehead.:D

imo

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by bkwits


:seeya: Hey Charlotte

There was a lot of confusion about the dates earlier in the case. The accused killer even put the wrong dates in his note.

Maria was last seen and heard from on 12/14. LE believes she was killed on that date. We don't know what information they are relying on. [/*]

Hi, bkwits! :seeya:

I'm thinking that CL used the wrong dates in his note on purpose. He was creating a story that we know was not the truth, and went with dates that tied in with his manufactured tale. The bus ticket was an earlier fabrication that he had hoped would keep her death and burial at his house from being discovered, and when that happened anyway he went with what sounded like the most believable tale (to him) incorporating the bus ticket purchase.

Just my theory (for now, anyway).

[henry]

Originally posted by baywench
Hi everyone....two things

1. I really believe that CL is a coward and will take his own life or sing like a canary. I think he is a bully but they usually cave when up against someone their own size.

2. I would think that the Mexican authorities would also be affected by the fact this crime is so heinous. The brutal slaughter of a pregnant woman and the ulitimate murder of your own child is not something I would think they would want anything to do with in terms of keeping him in Mexico. Particularly with a written confession...albeit self-serving and incomplete. JMO [/*]

ita . . . and add to that if he is found/arrested in mexico, i think this case will jump to the front page . . . as the military is involved . . . the us/mexico relations would be severely injured if they (mexico) did not cooperate & turn him over . . . jmo.

edit . . . can you tell i'm still catching up on my reading . . .

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky


No that's OK, I think your right on that. [/*]

I should know. He's on local news every day. :eek:

I know people that know people that know him. ;)

[henry]

Originally posted by bkwits


It is my understanding that LWOP is off the table in extradition from Mexico. It is considered cruel and unusual or something like that. It could have changed but I don't think it has. JMO [/*]

hah . . . my wannabe LG skills are working tonite :) . . . just found this link in my bookmarks relative to this . . . apologies if this has been posted further down on pg 2.

here's the link: http://tdcaa.com/node/1462

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by henry


oh crap . . . that was my favorite video on this case! iirc . . . someone posted the schedule and there was like 1/2 hr. to an 1 hr from when the bus was going to leave (from the time of purchasing ticket) . . . i was under the impression, and i could be wrong, that there was time, although short, to take that bus . . . but no one ever found out if the bus on the 14th was full . . . so , i don't know! [/*]
This doesn't answer about if the bus was full or not, but posting it anyway.

Lauterbach had purchased a bus ticket the day she went missing from Camp Lejeune but never used it, Brown said earlier.

Brown said the ticket was from Jacksonville, North Carolina, to El Paso, Texas.

Roshaun Hames told CNN affiliate WNCT-TV on Friday that he sold the ticket to Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach around 5 p.m. on December 14.

Hames said he thought Lauterbach was alone when she bought the ticket and that she drove off after asking if she could leave her car at the station, WNCT reported.

The ticket was good for six months, but Lauterbach was scheduled to use it December 15, Hames told WNCT, the day Lauterbach's car was left near the station. Bus records show the ticket was never used, Hames said.

http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/13708877.html

Only have a screen cap of Mr. Hames
http://i32.tinypic.com/2a78z87.jpg

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Charlotte


Hi, bkwits! :seeya:

I'm thinking that CL used the wrong dates in his note on purpose. He was creating a story that we know was not the truth, and went with dates that tied in with his manufactured tale. The bus ticket was an earlier fabrication that he had hoped would keep her death and burial at his house from being discovered, and when that happened anyway he went with what sounded like the most believable tale (to him) incorporating the bus ticket purchase.

Just my theory (for now, anyway). [/*]

Some on this board, including me, have thought that he misdated the date of the death because the 15th is usually payday and they got paid on the 14th of Dec because it was Fri. Remember, he allegedly wrote this almost a month later. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Charlotte


Hi, bkwits! :seeya:

I'm thinking that CL used the wrong dates in his note on purpose. He was creating a story that we know was not the truth, and went with dates that tied in with his manufactured tale. The bus ticket was an earlier fabrication that he had hoped would keep her death and burial at his house from being discovered, and when that happened anyway he went with what sounded like the most believable tale (to him) incorporating the bus ticket purchase.

Just my theory (for now, anyway). [/*]

Iirc we don't know for sure he wrote the 15th on the note or if that is what CSL told LE.

I think Maria purchased the bus ticket on her own and was planning on using it.

CS said this in his Q&A........so it seems they have found the connection.

13) Has it ever been determined what Maria's connection to El Paso was? We know the answers to these questions, we can not release the info at this time.

imo

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by henry


iirc (and the link of the video does not work any longer) he (ticket agent) was interviewed & pointed to the computer that has the date purchased as 12/14, and scheduled to be used 12/15 - although, i think, it's good for 5-6 months. [/*]

Thanks, henry. I wish the video link was still active (I'd like to have seen if the computer screen with the ticket transaction was visible), but here's what I'm thinking right now.

I think the ticket agent was acting for the camera, getting his 15 minutes of fame and maybe hoping to parlay that into something else. He may have been very convincing while pointing at the computer, but was the info on the computer screen ever shown up close?

The MC has officially stated that the Greyhound bus records reflect the ticket having been purchased on the 15th. I'm assuming that they've actually seen the records.

Here's another reason I think the ticket agent may have been hamming it up for the camera (and therefore, not necessarily being truthful or accurate). Here's what Google turned up for Roshaun Hames: http://www.hollywoodauditions.com/cast07/hames_roshaun.htm

If this is the same Roshaun Hames in North Carolina, he's a wanna-be actor/model.
I think he was just after some camera "face time," which happened to fall in his lap with this case.
But I think there's a reason that nobody else interviewed him after that one time -- his story turned out to be bogus.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky
I've been thinking about the question to CS and the answer as to if Maria and CL had contact prior to Maria's arrival at his house on the 14th. CS said yes.

That shoots my theory in the foot of thinking when she couldn't get a bus out on the 14th she decided to go to CL's house unannounced to read him the riot act for all the trouble he caused her and to demand money for her trip and the baby.

Maybe it was planned to see CL on the 14th and the ticket was bought for the 15th on purpose because of that.

I just wonder why now, if that was true, who contacted who and why she went there . Perhaps he was planning to murder her on that date. Perhaps there is premeditation on his part.


JMO [/*]

Yeah, it kind of shot my theory too. I have thought about the pre-planning of
CL, because he seemed to purposely stay home while Ctina was at the party. :shrug:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Chicky
I've been thinking about the question to CS and the answer as to if Maria and CL had contact prior to Maria's arrival at his house on the 14th. CS said yes.

That shoots my theory in the foot of thinking when she couldn't get a bus out on the 14th she decided to go to CL's house unannounced to read him the riot act for all the trouble he caused her and to demand money for her trip and the baby.

Maybe it was planned to see CL on the 14th and the ticket was bought for the 15th on purpose because of that.

I just wonder why now, if that was true, who contacted who and why she went there . Perhaps he was planning to murder her on that date. Perhaps there is premeditation on his part.

JMO [/*]

I do believe that Maria came there twice. Once to get money for the ticket which I think cost $184.

So if it was premeditated why wouldn't he kill her the first time she came there?

This crime just seems too sloppy and chaotic to be a premeditated crime imo.

imoo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Iirc we don't know for sure he wrote the 15th on the note or if that is what CSL told LE.

I think Maria purchased the bus ticket on her own and was planning on using it.

CS said this in his Q&A........so it seems they have found the connection.

13) Has it ever been determined what Maria's connection to El Paso was? We know the answers to these questions, we can not release the info at this time.

imo [/*]

LE has the note, don't they?

[bkwits]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I do believe that Maria came there twice. Once to get money for the ticket which I think cost $184.

So if it was premeditated why wouldn't he kill her the first time she came there?

This crime just seems too sloppy and chaotic to be a premeditated crime imo.

imoo [/*]

I don't think she was there twice. I don't believe the killer. The timeline was very tight. IMO

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by Charlotte


(snipped)

http://www.hollywoodauditions.com/cast07/hames_roshaun.htm

If this is the same Roshaun Hames in North Carolina, he's a wanna-be actor/model.
I think he was just after some camera "face time," which happened to fall in his lap with this case.
But I think there's a reason that nobody else interviewed him after that one time -- his story turned out to be bogus. [/*]

It certainly looks like him!

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


It certainly looks like him! [/*]

It's interesting to me that the only interview ever done with this actor has been taken offline -- both the text article and the video.

I wonder why that is? ;)

[bkwits]

Originally posted by henry


hah . . . my wannabe LG skills are working tonite :) . . . just found this link in my bookmarks relative to this . . . apologies if this has been posted further down on pg 2.

here's the link: http://tdcaa.com/node/1462 [/*]

Sorry, henry, just now saw your post.

See my later MEA CULPA post. I was wrong.:punch: Don't beat me any more, please.

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky


She had the money for the ticket from her ATM stop. I think she went to his house right after buying the ticket and only went there once. I think the other contact was by phone.

The question is why did she go there? Did he tell her to buy the ticket to El Paso for 15th for a reason? Maybe he was planning to kill her and was setting up a bus ticket to show she left. Maybe he told her he would run away with her to El Paso. Just thinking.

jmo [/*]

Maybe he took her there in her car. He left his car near the bus station. IMO

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


LE has the note, don't they? [/*]

Yes I am sure they do but if I recall in the SW it was not quotes from the note that was used but what CSL said to them.:shrug:

[henry]

Originally posted by Charlotte


Thanks, henry. I wish the video link was still active (I'd like to have seen if the computer screen with the ticket transaction was visible), but here's what I'm thinking right now.

I think the ticket agent was acting for the camera, getting his 15 minutes of fame and maybe hoping to parlay that into something else. He may have been very convincing while pointing at the computer, but was the info on the computer screen ever shown up close?

The MC has officially stated that the Greyhound bus records reflect the ticket having been purchased on the 15th. I'm assuming that they've actually seen the records.

Here's another reason I think the ticket agent may have been hamming it up for the camera (and therefore, not necessarily being truthful or accurate). Here's what Google turned up for Roshaun Hames: http://www.hollywoodauditions.com/cast07/hames_roshaun.htm

If this is the same Roshaun Hames in North Carolina, he's a wanna-be actor/model.
I think he was just after some camera "face time," which happened to fall in his lap with this case.
But I think there's a reason that nobody else interviewed him after that one time -- his story turned out to be bogus. [/*]

it could be - without his yellow jacket, it's hard to tell :) . . . but iirc . . . the ticket & all associated info was entered into the computer . . . so i don't think there could be much fudging with the date . . . of course, there could be human input error but i would expect the computer to note the date/time of purchase ? . . . imo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by Chicky


Did we ever determine how many cars he had? Did Christina have a car and he had the truck? Do we know if one of those cars were in the driveway on the l4th? I just have a mental block. jmo [/*]


Yes, Ctina had a car and CL had the truck. I heard the one neighbor say that ML's car was there when Ctina's was not. He didn't mention the truck.

I was thinking that CL and Maria being in her car would explain how he got her car back to the bus station lot. IMO

[henry]

Originally posted by Chicky


Did we ever determine how many cars he had? Did Christina have a car and he had the truck? Do we know if one of those cars were in the driveway on the l4th? I just have a mental block. jmo [/*]

i asked a week(?) ago . . . no answer so my answer is ?

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by Chicky


Did we ever determine how many cars he had? Did Christina have a car and he had the truck? Do we know if one of those cars were in the driveway on the l4th? I just have a mental block. jmo [/*]
I've never seen it mentioned what make/model car CSL has, only that the neighbors mentioned seeing her car in the driveway during the early part of December, but not seeing her.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


I don't think she was there twice. I don't believe the killer. The timeline was very tight. IMO [/*]

Well I do and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they have now accessed CL accounts and that a withdrawal was made for the amount needed for the ticket and it will be close in time to when she purchased the ticket based on the ATM machine he used and how long it took her to get to the bus station from there. I think once he gave her the money then he returned home in his own vehicle. There is no way I believe they rode together in broad daylight down a main drag that was crawling with other Marines out and about that could see them.

She goes back to tell him she cannot leave until the 15th not the 14th like she had wanted to imo.

imoo

[henry]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bkwits


Sorry, henry, just now saw your post.

snip

my sincere apologies . . . read further down the line and saw that - too late to delete my post . . . but i did snip the above - okay :rose: :rose: :rose:

[Jan Powell]

I would never rule out that Maria's death didn't happen on the 15th (as first thought) because I've seen no proof it happened on the 14th.

I think the 14th is the date LE use because that was the last date she was seen alive and she didn't catch the bus on the 15th and made no phone calls.

If CL's supposed letter was written to protect his wife; instead of saying the 15th, why didn't he say the 14th before 7:00PM or 8:00PM, etc. when maybe she had the party alibi?

[baywench]

Originally posted by Jan Powell
I would never rule out that Maria's death didn't happen on the 15th (as first thought) because I've seen no proof it happened on the 14th.

I think the 14th is the date LE use because that was the last date she was seen alive and she didn't catch the bus on the 15th and made no phone calls.

If CL's supposed letter was written to protect his wife; instead of saying the 15th, why didn't he say the 14th before 7:00PM or 8:00PM, etc. when maybe she had the party alibi? [/*]

Good point!

[Cardinal]

Originally posted by Jan Powell
I would never rule out that Maria's death didn't happen on the 15th (as first thought) because I've seen no proof it happened on the 14th.

I think the 14th is the date LE use because that was the last date she was seen alive and she didn't catch the bus on the 15th and made no phone calls.

If CL's supposed letter was written to protect his wife; instead of saying the 15th, why didn't he say the 14th before 7:00PM or 8:00PM, etc. when maybe she had the party alibi? [/*]

Very good point. The date discrepancies have bothered me throughout this case. I don't necessarily buy that they're "mistakes".

[strick10]

Originally posted by Jan Powell
I would never rule out that Maria's death didn't happen on the 15th (as first thought) because I've seen no proof it happened on the 14th.

I think the 14th is the date LE use because that was the last date she was seen alive and she didn't catch the bus on the 15th and made no phone calls.

If CL's supposed letter was written to protect his wife; instead of saying the 15th, why didn't he say the 14th before 7:00PM or 8:00PM, etc. when maybe she had the party alibi? [/*]

I'm not ruling out the 15th either. Unless CL had some help on the 14th it is hard to believe he did it all himself. Now on the 15th IIRC CSLs parent(s) stated that CSL was at work so there is more time on the 15th for him to have murdered Maria and to clean up. I'm trying to find the time that the XMas party was scheduled to begin and end which will maybe allow me to place CLs 14th timelines more clearly.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Chicky
I guess what I am wondering is if during the time the murder occurred, was his truck and Maria's car in the driveway? I am going so far back it seems right now.

What makes no sense to me is why would he plan to murder her in his own house? Why wouldn't he just take her to somewhere in the woods and do it there? [/*]

He had 54,000 acres to hide the body right on base. Places that have alligators or throw her into deep woods that are never gone in or swampy areas. So many places to hide bodies up there where they would never be found.

I don't think he did plan to kill her.

I think when she came back for whatever reason something ignited the firestorm.

I still believe equally that it could have been CAL or CSL. He and Maria may have gotten into a very heated argument or CSL could have walked in and caught them there together in her home.

I have always seen this case as one of extreme heat of passion that had been building for months on end.

imoo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by Charlotte


It's interesting to me that the only interview ever done with this actor has been taken offline -- both the text article and the video.

I wonder why that is? ;) [/*]

A lot of the articles and videos concerning this case have been removed from wnct.com. Why don't you email them and ask why they have removed them?

If this is the same Mr. Hames that you have provided a link to his talent agency, I'm sure OCSD has interviewed him and verified via the computer of when the ticket was purchased. He's just another witness in this case and as Sutherland has said, they have interviewed many witnesses. Captain Sutherland said in an interview that the bus ticket was purchased on 12/14/07 to be USED on 12/15/07. (And I believe Lynn Gweeny provided a link in which a CNN reporter stated the ticket was recovered from Maria's car.)

So now Mr. Hames is bogus just because he's wanting to be an actor and no one else has interviewed him? Good grief, I suppose the same could be said about the Alander's and Malo Menard since Fox News is the only media agency who has interviewed them.

jmo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Chicky


I go with LE on the date of death. They know. jmo [/*]

The ME will never be able to affix the 14th as TOD. It will be a guesstimate range.

imoo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by Jan Powell
I would never rule out that Maria's death didn't happen on the 15th (as first thought) because I've seen no proof it happened on the 14th.

I think the 14th is the date LE use because that was the last date she was seen alive and she didn't catch the bus on the 15th and made no phone calls.

If CL's supposed letter was written to protect his wife; instead of saying the 15th, why didn't he say the 14th before 7:00PM or 8:00PM, etc. when maybe she had the party alibi? [/*]
I personally think that Maria was killed sometime during the evening of the 14th. Her whereabouts are unaccounted for after leaving the bus station at about 5pm. So where did she go, if not to CL's house and never left there? Just because CL said it was the 15th in his note doesn't mean he didn't make a mistake on the date. He isn't the brightest one, you know. ;)

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by IvySterling

This doesn't answer about if the bus was full or not, but posting it anyway.

Lauterbach had purchased a bus ticket the day she went missing from Camp Lejeune but never used it, Brown said earlier.

Brown said the ticket was from Jacksonville, North Carolina, to El Paso, Texas.

Roshaun Hames told CNN affiliate WNCT-TV on Friday that he sold the ticket to Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach around 5 p.m. on December 14.

Hames said he thought Lauterbach was alone when she bought the ticket and that she drove off after asking if she could leave her car at the station, WNCT reported.

The ticket was good for six months, but Lauterbach was scheduled to use it December 15, Hames told WNCT, the day Lauterbach's car was left near the station. Bus records show the ticket was never used, Hames said.

http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/13708877.html

Only have a screen cap of Mr. Hames
http://i32.tinypic.com/2a78z87.jpg [/*]

He's been reduced to a "tiny pic".....:(

I'm printing this one out to keep on my desk. Right next to my picture of Wanda. :D

[nuttintodo]

And as a follow up to my previous post, here is a listing of all the articles that wnct.com has on their site concerning Maria Lauterbach:

http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/search.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-03-03-0014.html

http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/search.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-02-12-0058.html

http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/search.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-02-11-0045.html

That's a total of 3 articles and I can remember when there were a whole lot more there.

And while we're on the subject of someone being bogus, why is it that wnct.com was the only new outlet who interviewed Miley Collier, the myspace person who created a memorial page to Maria and she claimed to have recieved death threats? Just because wnct.com was the only one to interview her and no one else, does that make her bogus too?

jmo

[strick10]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


He's been reduced to a "tiny pic".....:(

I'm printing this one out to keep on my desk. Right next to my picture of Wanda. :D [/*]

Really? Is Wandas' picture in a popsicle stick frame?

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by strick10


Really? Is Wandas' picture in a popsicle stick frame? [/*]

HOw did you know?

:eek:

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


He's been reduced to a "tiny pic".....:(

I'm printing this one out to keep on my desk. Right next to my picture of Wanda. :D [/*]
Now that stuck me funny! I have more than one of 'jammie girl' but sorry, she's wearing the same bottoms in both photos :)

[strick10]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


HOw did you know?

:eek: [/*]

:lol:

[sunstar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


He had 54,000 acres to hide the body right on base. Places that have alligators or throw her into deep woods that are never gone in or swampy areas. So many places to hide bodies up there where they would never be found.

I don't think he did plan to kill her.

I think when she came back for whatever reason something ignited the firestorm.

I still believe equally that it could have been CAL or CSL. He and Maria may have gotten into a very heated argument or CSL could have walked in and caught them there together in her home.

I have always seen this case as one of extreme heat of passion that had been building for months on end.

imoo [/*]
Hi GB :seeya: I agree with you that Maria's murder doesn't look premeditated as far as luring her to his house with the plan to kill her. Just by the manner in which she was killed (multiple blows to the head) it looks like rage and as you said, why not do it somewhere else if he'd abducted her from the bus station, for example, and dropped her in the woods or wherever, off his property? The fact she was burned and burned in his back yard tells me he didn't plan it.

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
And as a follow up to my previous post, here is a listing of all the articles that wnct.com has on their site concerning Maria Lauterbach:

http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/search.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-03-03-0014.html

http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/search.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-02-12-0058.html

http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/search.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-02-11-0045.html

That's a total of 3 articles and I can remember when there were a whole lot more there.

And while we're on the subject of someone being bogus, why is it that wnct.com was the only new outlet who interviewed Miley Collier, the myspace person who created a memorial page to Maria and she claimed to have recieved death threats? Just because wnct.com was the only one to interview her and no one else, does that make her bogus too?

jmo [/*]

And since CNN was the only one to interview the "cousin" ('cause he hid from Fox) does that mean he's bogus too?

(Not that I wasn't already thinking that or anything......)

[crymeariver2006]

Originally posted by IvySterling

Now that stuck me funny! I have more than one of 'jammie girl' but sorry, she's wearing the same bottoms in both photos :) [/*]

That kind of screws up your collage, doesn't it?

:D

[baywench]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


A lot of the articles and videos concerning this case have been removed from wnct.com. Why don't you email them and ask why they have removed them?

If this is the same Mr. Hames that you have provided a link to his talent agency, I'm sure OCSD has interviewed him and verified via the computer of when the ticket was purchased. He's just another witness in this case and as Sutherland has said, they have interviewed many witnesses. Captain Sutherland said in an interview that the bus ticket was purchased on 12/14/07 to be USED on 12/15/07. (And I believe Lynn Gweeny provided a link in which a CNN reporter stated the ticket was recovered from Maria's car.)

So now Mr. Hames is bogus just because he's wanting to be an actor and no one else has interviewed him? Good grief, I suppose the same could be said about the Alander's and Malo Menard since Fox News is the only media agency who has interviewed them.

jmo [/*]

ITA Nuttin...as I was reading the post I thought the same. Sometimes it just is what it is. I doubt his spotlight is any bigger from the experience. JMO

[henry]

unless someone has the answer to this, i'm submitting the following question: was mrs. xtina gainfully employed outside their home in the preceding days/month prior to returning to the mc base in 01/08.

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by crymeariver2006


And since CNN was the only one to interview the "cousin" ('cause he hid from Fox) does that mean he's bogus too?

(Not that I wasn't already thinking that or anything......) [/*]

But of course, apparently if you're not interviewed by numerous news outlets you must be bogus.

I guess that means that 'Lisa' is bogus too.

When did you put Wanda's pic on a popscicle stick? :eek:

[strick10]

Originally posted by henry
unless someone has the answer to this, i'm submitting the following question: was mrs. xtina gainfully employed outside their home in the preceding days/month prior to returning to the mc base in 01/08. [/*]

Good question Henry!

[sunstar]

Originally posted by henry
unless someone has the answer to this, i'm submitting the following question: was mrs. xtina gainfully employed outside their home in the preceding days/month prior to returning to the mc base in 01/08. [/*]
Sorry but I haven't read anything credible about what she did during the day while CL was at work. :shrug:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sunstar

Hi GB :seeya: I agree with you that Maria's murder doesn't look premeditated as far as luring her to his house with the plan to kill her. Just by the manner in which she was killed (multiple blows to the head) it looks like rage and as you said, why not do it somewhere else if he'd abducted her from the bus station, for example, and dropped her in the woods or wherever, off his property? The fact she was burned and burned in his back yard tells me he didn't plan it. [/*]

Well Hi There Sun!:seeya:

Yes, he could have easily told her to meet him somewhere out in the woods so no one would see them and report seeing them together but he didn't do that. In fact I think the first time she came there things were okay but when she returned he may have been very perturbed thinking he was through with it and knowing then that the time for Christina to be home was growing closer and closer. Maybe they got into a shouting match and he told her she had to leave and it ticked Maria off and it went very bad from there.

He had to have in the back of his mind that Christina was going to be :flamemad: when she walked through that door knowing he was a no show and left her high and dry at his own party. That had to also embarrass Christina I would think in front of all of his comrades and their SOs.

So things got tense .........very tense imo.

And either CAL did this with pent up rage or CSL did. I think they both had equal motives for either one of them to do this.

imoo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by sunstar

Hi GB :seeya: I agree with you that Maria's murder doesn't look premeditated as far as luring her to his house with the plan to kill her. Just by the manner in which she was killed (multiple blows to the head) it looks like rage and as you said, why not do it somewhere else if he'd abducted her from the bus station, for example, and dropped her in the woods or wherever, off his property? The fact she was burned and burned in his back yard tells me he didn't plan it. [/*]

I don't think he planned to kill Maria either. I feel it was a spur of the moment thing and something ignited him causing him to strike Maria with the murder weapon.

ITA agree that if he had planned to murder Maria, surely he wouldn't have buried and burned her body on his property. As Ocean said, there is a lot of rural areas in this county, as well as the base, where he could have dumped her and it would have taken a long time to find her and Gabriel's remains.

jmo

[nuttintodo]

And to those who asked whether CSL has a vehicle, yes she does. I saw a picture of it parked in their driveway, and the car is a white Ponitac something along the lines of a Sunbird.

I will try to locate the video in which her car is shown and do a screen shot.

Until then, this JMO.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Chicky


LE has set the date of death as being on the 14th. I said nothing about the time of death. I guess you know more then LE.:shrug: [/*]

LE can, through the State lay out their theory of the case but they are never going to be able to prove it by the ME. He will not be able to say with medical certainty that it absolutely happened on the 14th.

imoo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


A lot of the articles and videos concerning this case have been removed from wnct.com. Why don't you email them and ask why they have removed them?

If this is the same Mr. Hames that you have provided a link to his talent agency, I'm sure OCSD has interviewed him and verified via the computer of when the ticket was purchased. He's just another witness in this case and as Sutherland has said, they have interviewed many witnesses. Captain Sutherland said in an interview that the bus ticket was purchased on 12/14/07 to be USED on 12/15/07. (And I believe Lynn Gweeny provided a link in which a CNN reporter stated the ticket was recovered from Maria's car.)

So now Mr. Hames is bogus just because he's wanting to be an actor and no one else has interviewed him? Good grief, I suppose the same could be said about the Alander's and Malo Menard since Fox News is the only media agency who has interviewed them.

jmo [/*]

I think there are other links that are starting to disappear too, but I don't believe it is conspiracy related or anything of that nature. I think it probably is relative to their space and webmaster. JMO tho.

It involves other sites as well as wnct.com IMO.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Chicky


I think he will. [/*]

How do you think the ME is going to pinpoint her death that closely when he is having to look at the remains of a victim who has been deceased for almost a month when discovered?

imoo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by sunstar

Hi GB :seeya: I agree with you that Maria's murder doesn't look premeditated as far as luring her to his house with the plan to kill her. Just by the manner in which she was killed (multiple blows to the head) it looks like rage and as you said, why not do it somewhere else if he'd abducted her from the bus station, for example, and dropped her in the woods or wherever, off his property? The fact she was burned and burned in his back yard tells me he didn't plan it. [/*]

Hi Sun, I agree, this crime wreaks of "heat of the moment" IMO.

The possibilities for doing such a heinous deed and covering it well are endless where they were located and the water wasn't that far either.

The backyard is a very telling kind of story with reference to planning from my POV. :shrug:

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Well Hi There Sun!:seeya:

Yes, he could have easily told her to meet him somewhere out in the woods so no one would see them and report seeing them together but he didn't do that. In fact I think the first time she came there things were okay but when she returned he may have been very perturbed thinking he was through with it and knowing then that the time for Christina to be home was growing closer and closer. Maybe they got into a shouting match and he told her she had to leave and it ticked Maria off and it went very bad from there.

He had to have in the back of his mind that Christina was going to be :flamemad: when she walked through that door knowing he was a no show and left her high and dry at his own party. That had to also embarrass Christina I would think in front of all of his comrades and their SOs.

So things got tense .........very tense imo.

And either CAL did this with pent up rage or CSL did. I think they both had equal motives for either one of them to do this.

imoo [/*]

ITA with this post GB. I will add that there is something fishy about the notes too and the idea that he would confess to burying a body, but claim a suicide took place. Something is not right in this story and I am waiting to see what happens when Mr. and Mrs. Laurean are on NC soil and being asked to answer certain telling questions. Better yet, since NC is an open file discovery state, his attorney should have access to what Christina is claiming fairly soon IMO and when things start coming together, something tells me they will start falling apart IMHO.

[henry]

Originally posted by Chicky


How are you so sure he won't? [/*]

will they be relying on other evidence . . . such as cell phone records, perhaps other videocams of them . . . to pinpoint her unfortunate death to 12/14? trying to think what else could corroborate this date :shrug: . . . imo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Well Hi There Sun!:seeya:

Yes, he could have easily told her to meet him somewhere out in the woods so no one would see them and report seeing them together but he didn't do that. In fact I think the first time she came there things were okay but when she returned he may have been very perturbed thinking he was through with it and knowing then that the time for Christina to be home was growing closer and closer. Maybe they got into a shouting match and he told her she had to leave and it ticked Maria off and it went very bad from there.

He had to have in the back of his mind that Christina was going to be :flamemad: when she walked through that door knowing he was a no show and left her high and dry at his own party. That had to also embarrass Christina I would think in front of all of his comrades and their SOs.

So things got tense .........very tense imo.

And either CAL did this with pent up rage or CSL did. I think they both had equal motives for either one of them to do this.

imoo [/*]
If Maria went to his house right after the bus station, Mrs. CL would still be at the party. But it's the possibility that Maria left his house and returned later on that makes me think Mrs. CL was involved, especially if she was more than just a little upset with CL for not being at the party. Instead of taking out her anger on CL she might have figured that Maria (being at their house) was the reason he didn't go to the party and that's when everything escalated. The only thing I can't figure out is if Maria had left his house once, where did she go in between visits and when did she return?

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by AnnieBean


Yeah, cos if they come up with a time of death I am definately running the BS flag up the flagpole....


jmo [/*]

And I'll be right there with ya helping you with running that flag up the pole!

jmo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by sunstar

If Maria went to his house right after the bus station, Mrs. CL would still be at the party. But it's the possibility that Maria left his house and returned later on that makes me think Mrs. CL was involved, especially if she was more than just a little upset with CL for not being at the party. Instead of taking out her anger on CL she might have figured that Maria (being at their house) was the reason he didn't go to the party and that's when everything escalated. The only thing I can't figure out is if Maria had left his house once, where did she go in between visits and when did she return? [/*]

I wonder how many times Christina called Cesar's cell phone during the party? To me, this case will boil down to communications for the most part.

I am thinking the timing and number of calls going in and out are going to give them much to ponder as they continue to put this case together.

JMO.:o

[sunstar]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


I don't think he planned to kill Maria either. I feel it was a spur of the moment thing and something ignited him causing him to strike Maria with the murder weapon.

ITA agree that if he had planned to murder Maria, surely he wouldn't have buried and burned her body on his property. As Ocean said, there is a lot of rural areas in this county, as well as the base, where he could have dumped her and it would have taken a long time to find her and Gabriel's remains.

jmo [/*]
Including a wooded area that appears to be right on the other side of the back fence, but the only problem with that would be someone else finding her and not being able to burn her body in the disguise of a barbeque. :(

[henry]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


And I'll be right there with ya helping you with running that flag up the pole!

jmo [/*]

and we'll all put our big guy/girls britches as the flag . . . sorry no disrespect to our flag :patriot:

[sunstar]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


I wonder how many times Christina called Cesar's cell phone during the party? To me, this case will boil down to communications for the most part.

I am thinking the timing and number of calls going in and out are going to give them much to ponder as they continue to put this case together.

JMO.:o [/*]
I wonder that too. If I was her, it sure would be more than once and each time a little more agitated that he wasn't there yet and more importantly, why he wasn't there. I still think there's something we don't know yet about that though since the earliest Maria could've gotten to his house is about 5:30pm after driving from the bus station, so why was he at home then and not at the party? Had he talked with Maria earlier in the day and agreed to meet with her? Had they planned that she would come over? :shrug:

[nuttintodo]

Here's a photo of CSL's vehicle:

http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cslvehicleir4.gif

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by sunstar

Including a wooded area that appears to be right on the other side of the back fence, but the only problem with that would be someone else finding her and not being able to burn her body in the disguise of a barbeque. :( [/*]

That's another thing that smells of woman in control IMO Sun. I don't know any man who would even take a chance at being found out by his wife. She would have to know IMO.

JMO tho. :o

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sunstar

If Maria went to his house right after the bus station, Mrs. CL would still be at the party. But it's the possibility that Maria left his house and returned later on that makes me think Mrs. CL was involved, especially if she was more than just a little upset with CL for not being at the party. Instead of taking out her anger on CL she might have figured that Maria (being at their house) was the reason he didn't go to the party and that's when everything escalated. The only thing I can't figure out is if Maria had left his house once, where did she go in between visits and when did she return? [/*]

I don't think there is a woman here who is either married or is with someone they love that wouldn't be absolutely breathing fire if they found the woman that had accused their SO of rape and was pregnant.......if they found them together .....nside their own home.

I am not even a jealous person but I tell ya.........I would be madder than a wet setting hen I tell ya!

I think she went there after leaving the note to DD, packing her possessions and got there sometime around 3:30pm. Then she went to the ATM machine and imo he at that time withdrew money also from his account for the bus ticket. IMO they went in separate vehicles so he gets back home in his truck around 5pm.

Then she comes back around 5:45 pm to tell him about the bus situation and that she cant leave until the next day.

Then something ignited the flames...or somebody.

imoo

[henry]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Here's a photo of CSL's vehicle:

http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cslvehicleir4.gif [/*]

thanks . . . whose cars are those on neighbor's lawn - upper right? (i miss your arrows!)

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by sunstar

I wonder that too. If I was her, it sure would be more than once and each time a little more agitated that he wasn't there yet and more importantly, why he wasn't there. I still think there's something we don't know yet about that though since the earliest Maria could've gotten to his house is about 5:30pm after driving from the bus station, so why was he at home then and not at the party? Had he talked with Maria earlier in the day and agreed to meet with her? Had they planned that she would come over? :shrug: [/*]

I feel they were in contact that DAY and that there was a plan to meet at the house. IF not that, then my money says Maria had CALLED HIM and boxed him in with reference to needing to see him and he told Christina to go ahead thinking he would be there shortly. But maybe Maria had much more on her mind than he could handle in a short time.

I believe the mother's first story about the phone and that Maria was upset and wanting to keep the baby.

JMO tho, all JMO. :(

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Here's a photo of CSL's vehicle:

http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cslvehicleir4.gif [/*]

TYVM Nuttintodo! ;)

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by Chicky


Yeah, but I still agree with LE on the date of death being the 14th. jmo [/*]
Yes, we know, we got it!

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by sunstar

I wonder that too. If I was her, it sure would be more than once and each time a little more agitated that he wasn't there yet and more importantly, why he wasn't there. I still think there's something we don't know yet about that though since the earliest Maria could've gotten to his house is about 5:30pm after driving from the bus station, so why was he at home then and not at the party? Had he talked with Maria earlier in the day and agreed to meet with her? Had they planned that she would come over? :shrug: [/*]

I guess we'll have to wait until the trial to find out more on what exactly transpired that day.

jmo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


TYVM Nuttintodo! ;) [/*]

NP and for the record that picture was with an article and video that was once up on wnct.com.

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Here's a photo of CSL's vehicle:

http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cslvehicleir4.gif [/*]
Thanks so much nuttin, hope you don't mind that I saved it to my file If so, it's too late ;)
Here's a side shot of the car
http://i28.tinypic.com/2w6f9qr.jpg

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by henry


thanks . . . whose cars are those on neighbor's lawn - upper right? (i miss your arrows!) [/*]

Those vehicles belong to the SBI and other LLE. IIRC that photo was taken on 1/11/08.

jmo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by IvySterling

Thanks so much nuttin, hope you don't mind that I saved it to my file If so, it's too late ;) [/*]

I'm glad you are! At least if I lose everything I have, I now know I have a back up source. ;)

Thanks Ivy!

[henry]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


Those vehicles belong to the SBI and other LLE. IIRC that photo was taken on 1/11/08.

jmo [/*]

sorry last question of the nite - who's SBI and i've noticed lately that some posters are using LLE in lieu of LE . . . ?

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think there is a woman here who is either married or is with someone they love that wouldn't be absolutely breathing fire if they found the woman that had accused their SO of rape and was pregnant.......if they found them together .....nside their own home.

I am not even a jealous person but I tell ya.........I would be madder than a wet setting hen I tell ya!

I think she went there after leaving the note to DD, packing her possessions and got there sometime around 3:30pm. Then she went to the ATM machine and imo he at that time withdrew money also from his account for the bus ticket. IMO they went in separate vehicles so he gets back home in his truck around 5pm.

Then she comes back around 5:45 pm to tell him about the bus situation and that she cant leave until the next day.

Then something ignited the flames...or somebody.

imoo [/*]

I agree, I would have been over the top sitting at his work party waiting for my spouse who never showed. Trust me, if I pulled up and caught another woman in my home for ANY REASON whatsoever after I had been waiting for him, it would not be pretty.

Then let it be the woman I feel responsible for the dark cloud over our heads for the past few months, (remember if you believe Maria, Christina had confronted her and asked why she was doing this to them....) and anything could have happened from that point.

One thing I don't understand is IF Cesar and Maria parted ways at 5PM thinking she was going to wherever, why wouldn't he have hightailed it over to his work party?

Well, I guess we will have some PHONE RECORDS eventually and I look for them to tell more than one story.

JMO again. :shrug:

[nuttintodo]

Good grief. :read:

I'm off to catch AMW and see the latest on Eve Carson's murder (I TiVO'ed it).

:seeya:

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by henry


sorry last question of the nite - who's SBI and i've noticed lately that some posters are using LLE in lieu of LE . . . ? [/*]

SBI=NC State Bureau of Investigation

LLE=Local Law Enforcement, i.e., Onslow County Sheriff's Department (sometimes I find it quicker to type LLE instead of OCSD)

Sorry if I was confusing.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


I agree, I would have been over the top sitting at his work party waiting for my spouse who never showed. Trust me, if I pulled up and caught another woman in my home for ANY REASON whatsoever after I had been waiting for him, it would not be pretty.

Then let it be the woman I feel responsible for the dark cloud over our heads for the past few months, (remember if you believe Maria, Christina had confronted her and asked why she was doing this to them....) and anything could have happened from that point.

One thing I don't understand is IF Cesar and Maria parted ways at 5PM thinking she was going to wherever, why wouldn't he have hightailed it over to his work party?

Well, I guess we will have some PHONE RECORDS eventually and I look for them to tell more than one story.

JMO again. :shrug: [/*]

Since he was so late maybe he thought it best to fake some excuse like he wasn't feeling good or something.:shrug:

imoo

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Good grief. :read:

I'm off to catch AMW and see the latest on Eve Carson's murder (I TiVO'ed it).

:seeya: [/*]
:seeya: nuttin. AMW isn't on yet out here.

ETA: I edited my post to include a link to another photo for your files

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Good grief. :read:

I'm off to catch AMW and see the latest on Eve Carson's murder (I TiVO'ed it).

:seeya: [/*]


:seeya:

Thanks for the pic.

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Since he was so late maybe he thought it best to fake some excuse like he wasn't feeling good or something.:shrug:

imoo [/*]

That certainly sounds plausible GB. Thanks. :patriot:

[sunstar]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


That's another thing that smells of woman in control IMO Sun. I don't know any man who would even take a chance at being found out by his wife. She would have to know IMO.

JMO tho. :o [/*]
Exactly my thoughts too! ;)

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think there is a woman here who is either married or is with someone they love that wouldn't be absolutely breathing fire if they found the woman that had accused their SO of rape and was pregnant.......if they found them together .....nside their own home.

I am not even a jealous person but I tell ya.........I would be madder than a wet setting hen I tell ya!

I think she went there after leaving the note to DD, packing her possessions and got there sometime around 3:30pm. Then she went to the ATM machine and imo he at that time withdrew money also from his account for the bus ticket. IMO they went in separate vehicles so he gets back home in his truck around 5pm.

Then she comes back around 5:45 pm to tell him about the bus situation and that she cant leave until the next day.

Then something ignited the flames...or somebody.

imoo [/*]

Mark my words Ocean! Something/somebody sure ignited the flames on 12/14/07.

And if my hubby was accused of rape and the accuser turned up pregnant, I'd sure be on his butt EVERYDAY asking questions! I would discuss it every couple of months or so as CSL has claimed. Rape in itself is a serious charge and I would want to know every detail backwards and forwards.

Something certainly is amiss in their scenario. I still can't swallow that CSL attended HER HUSBAND's unit Christmas party without him. My two DD's have said many times they would never think of attending their SO's unit party without them present.

Hopefully whenever the trial commences, we'll find out the events and exactly what happened on 12/14/07.

jmo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by nuttintodo
Here's a photo of CSL's vehicle:

http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cslvehicleir4.gif [/*]
The one in the foreground looks like something she'll be riding in to jail. :D

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by sunstar

Exactly my thoughts too! ;) [/*]

The mind is a terrible thing to waste Sun. :eek:

Can you imagine how afraid you would be IF ONLY ONE of you knew? That is a hard sell for me.

jmo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by AnnieBean


Look, respectfully and JMO but there are links I can dig up for you on exactly how a normal undisturbed body decomposes. When you factor in the fact that she was buried, burned several times and about how many weeks had elapsed since she was last seen and presumed killed? Their date of death is a guesstimate and I am sure relies somewhat on the note. No way even in todays technologically sophisticated CSI world, after being adulterated so many different ways, could they tell the TIME OF DEATH. Too many variables. If laid out in the open they could use insects as a time line of death, etc but her body was too desecrated and altered to affix such an exact time of death. JMO.

ETA: GB: I am agreeing with you. [/*]

Thank you Annie.

I know TOD is not an exact science anyway and there are so many variables especially in this case that makes it impossible to set the date of death at a certain definite date.

I don't even know if it will be an issue at trial but if it is there is no way a ME is ever going to make it for the 14th only.

I sure hope we arent looking at another James Sullivan case where it took 19 years to bring him to justice.:(

imoo

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by IvySterling

Thanks so much nuttin, hope you don't mind that I saved it to my file If so, it's too late ;)
Here's a side shot of the car
http://i28.tinypic.com/2w6f9qr.jpg [/*]

I got it and I saved yours to my files...if that's okay with you. ;)

TYVM

So it's a 4 door Ponitac and I believe it's a Sunbird.

[sunstar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I don't think there is a woman here who is either married or is with someone they love that wouldn't be absolutely breathing fire if they found the woman that had accused their SO of rape and was pregnant.......if they found them together .....nside their own home.

I am not even a jealous person but I tell ya.........I would be madder than a wet setting hen I tell ya!

I think she went there after leaving the note to DD, packing her possessions and got there sometime around 3:30pm. Then she went to the ATM machine and imo he at that time withdrew money also from his account for the bus ticket. IMO they went in separate vehicles so he gets back home in his truck around 5pm.

Then she comes back around 5:45 pm to tell him about the bus situation and that she cant leave until the next day.

Then something ignited the flames...or somebody.

imoo [/*]
Oh, now that makes more sense moving up her first visit to earlier in the afternoon, before going to the ATM and bus station. Then the 2nd visit is when she's still there when Mrs. CL comes home. I like this timeline ~ it fits in a lot better with him seeing her and why he wasn't at the party and explains what might have happened when Mrs. CL came home. :)

[nuttintodo]

Originally posted by sunstar

The one in the foreground looks like something she'll be riding in to jail. :D [/*]

But, but, you've got to have probable cause! ;) :chicken:

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


Mark my words Ocean! Something/somebody sure ignited the flames on 12/14/07.

And if my hubby was accused of rape and the accuser turned up pregnant, I'd sure be on his butt EVERYDAY asking questions! I would discuss it every couple of months or so as CSL has claimed. Rape in itself is a serious charge and I would want to know every detail backwards and forwards.

Something certainly is amiss in their scenario. I still can't swallow that CSL attended HER HUSBAND's unit Christmas party without him. My two DD's have said many times they would never think of attending their SO's unit party without them present.

Hopefully whenever the trial commences, we'll find out the events and exactly what happened on 12/14/07.

jmo [/*]

You aren't foolin me. It wouldn't be everyday it would be constant because what wife could ever get that off of their mind? I would make my hubby so miserable he would either grovel at my feet every minute of the day or hope that I divorced him just so he could have some peace.:D

All of it is sooooooooo odd. Usually we can apply logic in most every case to some degree but nothing in this case adds up like it should.

imoo

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by sunstar

Oh, now that makes more sense moving up her first visit to earlier in the afternoon, before going to the ATM and bus station. Then the 2nd visit is when she's still there when Mrs. CL comes home. I like this timeline ~ it fits in a lot better with him seeing her and why he wasn't at the party and explains what might have happened when Mrs. CL came home. :) [/*]

As does the idea that maybe he claimed he was feeling ill. :o

That had been bugging me lately with reference to the last hours. Again, I think the cell records will and have been key and intstrumental in putting this case together as it's known now.

JMO tho.:patriot:

[sunstar]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


But, but, you've got to have probable cause! ;) :chicken: [/*]
I know ~ only special people get to ride in that car. :D

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by sunstar

Oh, now that makes more sense moving up her first visit to earlier in the afternoon, before going to the ATM and bus station. Then the 2nd visit is when she's still there when Mrs. CL comes home. I like this timeline ~ it fits in a lot better with him seeing her and why he wasn't at the party and explains what might have happened when Mrs. CL came home. :) [/*]
Now, I wonder since Maria's car would have been there who drove it to where it was found, and when?

[CANDYKISSES]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


You aren't foolin me. It wouldn't be everyday it would be constant because what wife could ever get that off of their mind? I would make my hubby so miserable he would either grovel at my feet every minute of the day or hope that I divorced him just so he could have some peace.:D

All of it is sooooooooo odd. Usually we can apply logic in most every case to some degree but nothing in this case adds up like it should.

imoo [/*]

No, it certainly doesn't from the allegations made by Maria to the alleged reaction by Christina to the idea that Cesar and Maria were having any kind of contact.

But as baywench said tonite "Sometimes IT IS WHAT IT IS".

jmo:shrug:

[sunstar]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


As does the idea that maybe he claimed he was feeling ill. :o

That had been bugging me lately with reference to the last hours. Again, I think the cell records will and have been key and intstrumental in putting this case together as it's known now.

JMO tho.:patriot: [/*]
I agree it will be interesting if and when we hear what calls transpired between CL/Mrs. CL and most important, when Maria and he first contacted each other that afternoon. The way Maria was dressed at the ATM she wouldn't have shown up at the party ~ that's about the only thing we can exclude!

[baywench]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


You aren't foolin me. It wouldn't be everyday it would be constant because what wife could ever get that off of their mind? I would make my hubby so miserable he would either grovel at my feet every minute of the day or hope that I divorced him just so he could have some peace.:D

All of it is sooooooooo odd. Usually we can apply logic in most every case to some degree but nothing in this case adds up like it should.

imoo [/*]

Me neither....it would be on mind every day and if I was dumb enough to even think about believing him I would be on his a*s every day and every minute. Where were you? Why are you late? And I would know everything about her. Make no mistake....that's logical. IMO

[gaelicpeas]

I am a page or so behind... but it doesn't make sense that ML would go to CL's house before her ATM withdrawal, and then back to the bus station. IIRC, that withdrawal was made from an ATM close to Durham's house/base. CL lived on the opposite side of Jacksonville... outside of town.

[sunstar]

Originally posted by IvySterling

Now, I wonder since Maria's car would have been there who drove it to where it was found, and when? [/*]
One report I heard was that the car had been at the bus station parking lot since the 15th and another said a neighbor saw CL driving it around. :shrug: Two people would've had to be involved, whether it's Mrs. CL or one of his buddies since I doubt he walked home from there.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sunstar

Oh, now that makes more sense moving up her first visit to earlier in the afternoon, before going to the ATM and bus station. Then the 2nd visit is when she's still there when Mrs. CL comes home. I like this time line ~ it fits in a lot better with him seeing her and why he wasn't at the party and explains what might have happened when Mrs. CL came home. :) [/*]

Right and I am guesstimating the 5 pm time when she is supposed to be buying the ticket. Nuttin said up there on paydays, Christmas holidays and Fridays it would take her about 45 minutes to get back to his home. But what we don't know Maria may have been hungry by then and stopped for fast food somewhere....that would shorten the time line even closer. We also don't know exactly when CSL returned all we know it was around 7am........very easily could have been earlier like 6:45..........cinching the time line even tighter.

So in a little over one hour she has got to come back and I don't think the rage began instantly but they probably argued and it escalated to him striking her with the crowbar (if he is the one who did). Then he has left a blood bath to clean up. So he has to hide the body..........hide her vehicle.......clean up the bloody walls and garage floor.......clean up in blood tracked inside of home......get rid of evidence.......get rid of his bloody clothing......shower......redress and be waiting there happy as a lark when Darth Vader walks through that door.

It just does not compute to me.

JMO tho.

[gaelicpeas]

I am leaning more and more toward this being an alcohol-fueled murder. I think CL went home at noon, popped a few beers, and then popped a few more.

ML showed up for whatever reason, demands money (if we can believe his note). He gives her the money, she leaves, he is just tickled pink that she is leaving town... so he pops a few more beers.... calls wife, says he better not drive...

Then ML returns to the house "later that night" (again, according to what we know of his note), and by then CL is pretty drunk... Maybe he decided to get "friendly" with ML...

Who knows - lots of murders are fueled by alcohol or drugs...

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by sunstar

One report I heard was that the car had been at the bus station parking lot since the 15th and another said a neighbor saw CL driving it around. :shrug: Two people would've had to be involved, whether it's Mrs. CL or one of his buddies since I doubt he walked home from there. [/*]
And RS said "We know that the vehicle was not located at the bus station the entire time from 12/14/07 to 1/7/08."

[sunstar]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
I am a page or so behind... but it doesn't make sense that ML would go to CL's house before her ATM withdrawal, and then back to the bus station. IIRC, that withdrawal was made from an ATM close to Durham's house/base. CL lived on the opposite side of Jacksonville... outside of town. [/*]
Then maybe she really wasn't at his house twice that afternoon/evening? I just can't see her leaving right before Mrs. CL comes home (about 7pm) and then coming back later on that night (knowing Mrs. CL would be home) and where was she in the meantime when she'd already left a note at Durham's house and taken some of her things?

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by baywench


Me neither....it would be on mind every day and if I was dumb enough to even think about believing him I would be on his a*s every day and every minute. Where were you? Why are you late? And I would know everything about her. Make no mistake....that's logical. IMO [/*]

LOL Mine would be wearing an ankle monitor.:D

imo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sunstar

Then maybe she really wasn't at his house twice that afternoon/evening? I just can't see her leaving right before Mrs. CL comes home (about 7pm) and then coming back later on that night (knowing Mrs. CL would be home) and where was she in the meantime when she'd already left a note at Durham's house and taken some of her things? [/*]

He said in his note I think that Maria came back later that evening.

I think she did. It makes sense to me because she told him her plans had fallen through.

imoo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by IvySterling

And RS said "We know that the vehicle was not located at the bus station the entire time from 12/14/07 to 1/7/08." [/*]
Correct and I think the initial report it had been parked there from 12/15 came from her bus ticket being for 12/15.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by IvySterling

And RS said "We know that the vehicle was not located at the bus station the entire time from 12/14/07 to 1/7/08." [/*]

Right. I think they know it was at the Laurean's home at first and then driven by CL to the bus station.

How did he get back home?

imoo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


He said in his note I think that Maria came back later that evening.

I think she did. It makes sense to me because she told him her plans had fallen through.

imoo [/*]
Yes I know where we're getting that 2nd visit from, but like you said earlier, I believe the 2nd time was between purchasing the bus ticket and Mrs. CL coming home. I don't think it was late at night. :)

[IvySterling]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Right. I think they know it was at the Laurean's home at first and then driven by CL to the bus station.

How did he get back home?

imoo [/*]
CSL :shrug:

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by sunstar

Then maybe she really wasn't at his house twice that afternoon/evening? I just can't see her leaving right before Mrs. CL comes home (about 7pm) and then coming back later on that night (knowing Mrs. CL would be home) and where was she in the meantime when she'd already left a note at Durham's house and taken some of her things? [/*]

No idea.. ML could have gone to CL's house anytime between noon and her ATM withdrawal a little after 4.... or after her bus ticket purchase "around 5".

Unfortunately, all of our theories depend on some pretty muddled/misreported "evidence".

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas
I am leaning more and more toward this being an alcohol-fueled murder. I think CL went home at noon, popped a few beers, and then popped a few more.

ML showed up for whatever reason, demands money (if we can believe his note). He gives her the money, she leaves, he is just tickled pink that she is leaving town... so he pops a few more beers.... calls wife, says he better not drive...

Then ML returns to the house "later that night" (again, according to what we know of his note), and by then CL is pretty drunk... Maybe he decided to get "friendly" with ML...

Who knows - lots of murders are fueled by alcohol or drugs... [/*]

I dont know. I havent heard one hint that he even has a drinking problem or that alcohol was involved at all.

How far was the bus station from where Maria lived?

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by IvySterling

CSL :shrug: [/*]

:biggrin:

[Jan Powell]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


The ME will never be able to affix the 14th as TOD. It will be a guesstimate range.

imoo [/*]

Thank you. There are two true facts we can all take to the bank; one is the COD but the second is they will never know when.

[sunstar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


Right and I am guesstimating the 5 pm time when she is supposed to be buying the ticket. Nuttin said up there on paydays, Christmas holidays and Fridays it would take her about 45 minutes to get back to his home. But what we don't know Maria may have been hungry by then and stopped for fast food somewhere....that would shorten the time line even closer. We also don't know exactly when CSL returned all we know it was around 7am........very easily could have been earlier like 6:45..........cinching the time line even tighter.

So in a little over one hour she has got to come back and I don't think the rage began instantly but they probably argued and it escalated to him striking her with the crowbar (if he is the one who did). Then he has left a blood bath to clean up. So he has to hide the body..........hide her vehicle.......clean up the bloody walls and garage floor.......clean up in blood tracked inside of home......get rid of evidence.......get rid of his bloody clothing......shower......redress and be waiting there happy as a lark when Darth Vader walks through that door.

It just does not compute to me.

JMO tho. [/*]
It doesn't compute to me either that "Darth Vader" (I love it! :D ) didn't have a clue what was going on or that he could've been Superman and gotten everything done in a matter of minutes. I will concede though that if she didn't park in the garage the body could've been left there overnight along with the bloody mess as long as Mrs. CL didn't go out to the garage for anything she wouldn't know. But the dog would!!

[gaelicpeas]

Maybe ML went to CL's right after her phone conversation with her mom.. at 2:30. Decided to forget the party, go tell CL she was leaving, ask for money. Drive back home, get out of party clothes, leave note for Durham, go to ATM, then bus station. Finds out bus is full for the 14th, heads back over to CL's....

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I dont know. I havent heard one hint that he even has a drinking problem or that alcohol was involved at all.

How far was the bus station from where Maria lived?

imoo [/*]

well... I don't have the map handy, but I would say 5 miles? That is just from my memory. The bus station is downtown... ML lived outside of town on the east side... CL lived outside of town on the NW side...

I just think the alcohol possibility fits into the rage killing, etc... Plus it was a payday weekend, early release from the base for the party... and he was of the age that Fridays mean partyyyyyyyyyyy time.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by CANDYKISSES


No, it certainly doesn't from the allegations made by Maria to the alleged reaction by Christina to the idea that Cesar and Maria were having any kind of contact.

But as baywench said tonite "Sometimes IT IS WHAT IT IS".

jmo:shrug: [/*]

I agree.

How was your outing today?

imoo

[baywench]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


well... I don't have the map handy, but I would say 5 miles? That is just from my memory. The bus station is downtown... ML lived outside of town on the east side... CL lived outside of town on the NW side...

I just think the alcohol possibility fits into the rage killing, etc... Plus it was a payday weekend, early release from the base for the party... and he was of the age that Fridays mean partyyyyyyyyyyy time. [/*]

Speaking of parties GP...how dare you have a life on a Saturday and show up here late!!!! LOL

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


well... I don't have the map handy, but I would say 5 miles? That is just from my memory. The bus station is downtown... ML lived outside of town on the east side... CL lived outside of town on the NW side...

I just think the alcohol possibility fits into the rage killing, etc... Plus it was a payday weekend, early release from the base for the party... and he was of the age that Fridays mean partyyyyyyyyyyy time. [/*]

I see this rage as one who was deep seeded and had been silently fueling for sometime. It was like a time bomb waiting to go off once the passions rose to fever pitch and it all poured out.


imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by Jan Powell


Thank you. There are two true facts we can all take to the bank; one is the COD but the second is they will never know when. [/*]

That is true.

I know in the Lauterbach family obituary they listed that Maria and Gabriel died December 15, 2007.

imoo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


well... I don't have the map handy, but I would say 5 miles? That is just from my memory. The bus station is downtown... ML lived outside of town on the east side... CL lived outside of town on the NW side...

I just think the alcohol possibility fits into the rage killing, etc... Plus it was a payday weekend, early release from the base for the party... and he was of the age that Fridays mean partyyyyyyyyyyy time. [/*]
It's a possibility that he'd had a few beers or whatever but it's also hard to say if that would even have played into the scenario not knowing what went on between him and Maria that day before she was murdered ~ such as, assuming she returned for a 2nd visit like he said, what happened the first time she was there and did they part amicably or not. So many things we just do not know.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sunstar

It's a possibility that he'd had a few beers or whatever but it's also hard to say if that would even have played into the scenario not knowing what went on between him and Maria that day before she was murdered ~ such as, assuming she returned for a 2nd visit like he said, what happened the first time she was there and did they part amicably or not. So many things we just do not know. [/*]

That is so true. We do not really know what Captain Sutherland meant when he said there had been "prior contact" to her coming there. It could mean that day only or that they have discovered that there was contact off and on after the allegations.

imoo

[sunstar]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


That is so true. We do not really know what Captain Sutherland meant when he said there had been "prior contact" to her coming there. It could mean that day only or that they have discovered that there was contact off and on after the allegations.

imoo [/*]
I personally think it was both. :)

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by sunstar

I personally think it was both. :) [/*]

I think so too Sun because imo it makes absolutely no sense that she would all of a sudden feel comfortable being in his presence inside of his own home alone with him.

Imo Maria was truthful to the Corps..........she did not fear Laurean and I sure would like to know what in the heck happened? Whatever it was it came out of the blue from no where without warning.

imoo

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by baywench


Speaking of parties GP...how dare you have a life on a Saturday and show up here late!!!! LOL [/*]

lol.. I have been here off and on all day...

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


That is so true. We do not really know what Captain Sutherland meant when he said there had been "prior contact" to her coming there. It could mean that day only or that they have discovered that there was contact off and on after the allegations.

imoo [/*]

I was thinking about this prior contact thing. I wonder if they have the age of the fetus forensics back yet. They could be basing this "contact" on a May sexual encounter.

I know it is probably not likely, but just thought I would throw that out there as a possibility.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


I was thinking about this prior contact thing. I wonder if they have the age of the fetus forensics back yet. They could be basing this "contact" on a May sexual encounter.

I know it is probably not likely, but just thought I would throw that out there as a possibility. [/*]

I have thought of that also ,gaelic and I am not convinced that the latter date is wrong.

But this poses the same problem that we have about any ME determining she died exactly on the 14th. They will also give a gestation range for Gabriel so I am not sure that we are going to learn anything definitively when it comes to determining which due date was correct.

imoo

[bkwits]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


I was thinking about this prior contact thing. I wonder if they have the age of the fetus forensics back yet. They could be basing this "contact" on a May sexual encounter.

I know it is probably not likely, but just thought I would throw that out there as a possibility. [/*]

Sheriff Ed said the contact was started on Dec. 14.

I'm still looking for the link.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits


Sheriff Ed said the contact was started on Dec. 14.

I'm still looking for the link. [/*]

That is at the very beginning when they hadn't had time to investigate thoroughly. IMO now they do have reason to believe that contact was made after the rape allegation incident like NCIS said.

imoo

[bkwits]

:seeya:
Nite all

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by GentleBreeze


I have thought of that also ,gaelic and I am not convinced that the latter date is wrong.

But this poses the same problem that we have about any ME determining she died exactly on the 14th. They will also give a gestation range for Gabriel so I am not sure that we are going to learn anything definitively when it comes to determining which due date was correct.

imoo [/*]

I think they will be able to tell the fetal age... at least they can tell if the fetus was 7 months vs 8 months.. IMO

[Jan Powell]

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2316773/

This was updated on 1/18.

Brown said earlier it's "bizarre" and Hudson in above article talks about "more twists and turns than a roller coaster".

And, they have to submit their case and the evidence to Mexican authorities before they will extradite him?

With just CSL's cooperation with LE (no other witnesses) and because she lived in the house and didn't report anything sooner, I wonder whether they will extradite a citizen on a murder charge?

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by Jan Powell
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2316773/

This was updated on 1/18.

Brown said earlier it's "bizarre" and Hudson in above article talks about "more twists and turns than a roller coaster".

And, they have to submit their case and the evidence to Mexican authorities before they will extradite him?

With just CSL's cooperation with LE (no other witnesses) and because she lived in the house and didn't report anything sooner, I wonder whether they will extradite a citizen on a murder charge? [/*]

IMO.. all the bizarre twists and turns had to do with that very first week.. Jan 7-11, when they went back and forth between missing/whatever.... I think since then, IMO, they have found evidence that indicates this was not that bizarre of a case.. but JMO.

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


I think they will be able to tell the fetal age... at least they can tell if the fetus was 7 months vs 8 months.. IMO [/*]

I dont know....... they usually do about a month's range.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


IMO.. all the bizarre twists and turns had to do with that very first week.. Jan 7-11, when they went back and forth between missing/whatever.... I think since then, IMO, they have found evidence that indicates this was not that bizarre of a case.. but JMO. [/*]

I believe they are still uncovering bizarre twist and turns.

imoo

[GentleBreeze]

Originally posted by bkwits
:seeya:
Nite all [/*]

:seeya:

[Jan Powell]

Originally posted by gaelicpeas


IMO.. all the bizarre twists and turns had to do with that very first week.. Jan 7-11, when they went back and forth between missing/whatever.... I think since then, IMO, they have found evidence that indicates this was not that bizarre of a case.. but JMO. [/*]

Maybe you're right. I don't know if the press can cover an extradition hearing in Mexico or not. That would be our 1st clue of the actual case and the evidence if it's reported. IMO

[gaelicpeas]

Originally posted by Jan Powell


Maybe you're right. I don't know if the press can cover an extradition hearing in Mexico or not. That would be our 1st clue of the actual case and the evidence if it's reported. IMO [/*]

I don't know much about extradition cases. I would guess that we would hear about it, though.. but that is JMO.

ETA: by hearing about it, I mean we would know it was going on. Not sure whether we would hear what the actual evidence was...

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by henry


it could be - without his yellow jacket, it's hard to tell :) . . . but iirc . . . the ticket & all associated info was entered into the computer . . . so i don't think there could be much fudging with the date . . . of course, there could be human input error but i would expect the computer to note the date/time of purchase ? . . . imo [/*]

I would expect the computer to give the correct information too, henry. I don't think the dates were fudged in the computer -- I think Hames fudged his story about the computer for the press.

[Charlotte]

Originally posted by nuttintodo


A lot of the articles and videos concerning this case have been removed from wnct.com. Why don't you email them and ask why they have removed them?

I might do that.

If this is the same Mr. Hames that you have provided a link to his talent agency, I'm sure OCSD has interviewed him and verified via the computer of when the ticket was purchased.

I'm sure they have, too. It sounds as though it's been determined that the ticket was purchased a day after Hames said it was.[/QUOTE]

Captain Sutherland said in an interview that the bus ticket was purchased on 12/14/07 to be USED on 12/15/07.

Link, please.

(And I believe Lynn Gweeny provided a link in which a CNN reporter stated the ticket was recovered from Maria's car.)

What link would that be? And does that link provide the date that the ticket was purchased?

So now Mr. Hames is bogus just because he's wanting to be an actor and no one else has interviewed him? Good grief, I suppose the same could be said about the Alander's and Malo Menard since Fox News is the only media agency who has interviewed them.

No, Mr. Hames' story was bogus because both the MC and LLE arrived at a different determination than the "facts" offered by Hames. His dreams of becoming an actor are a possible explanation for inventing a story to get on camera with.

Why all the hostility in your post, nuttintodo?