Feb 2008 Patty Fornicola Thread

[Politigal]

read quickly folks...they vanish or get locked ;)

IMO, I still believe that Patty Fornicola was not truly investigated as a suspect in this case. I believe that some things were done, that the public isn't aware of, but still...not enough.

She was the last person to truly have seen Ray Gricar, after he left work that Thursday evening.

She was the provider of all the details that led police to believe he possibly just walked away.

She was Darrell Zaccagni's buddy from years prior, and he pitied her, as evidenced by his press conference about the mystery woman. And from other sources, he made sure she got the Mini Cooper back quickly.

There was never a thorough search or forensic investigation at her home. And, police waited 3 months before administering a polygraph.

She was the one who went upstairs to the closet to fetch the laptop, and told police it wasn't there. And per Zaccagni, the laptop case was never even fingerprinted.

She has also used laptop computers for several years, and is familiar with their operation & parts IMO.

She is also familiar with Lewisburg and the Street of Shops, as she had been there before with Ray Gricar.

And, the evening Gricar didn't come home, to *my* knowledge, she didn't call his best friend - asst DA Stephen Sloane, or any of RG's family members, just to see if they had spoken - instead, she phoned *her* brother.

No one can say where she was from Thursday night til she went to work the next day. And, there are really no reports available to the public about her work day on Friday - what time she left for lunch, etc. There are also no reports available to the public about her visit to a gym after work - what time she arrived or left, or who saw her there. We also have no idea of her whereabouts after the gym, or where she phoned her brother from, or her whereabouts after the call to her brother, til police arrived Saturday morning.

And per other sources, she provided an article to police, to be used for the scent dogs at Lewisburg. And we have no idea if that article truly belonged to Gricar.


IMO, she simply cannot be eliminated as a suspect in his disappearance - no way - no how.

~JMHO~

[Cinderella]

Pgal have we been told what item the dog or dogs were scented with? Thanks for starting this thread. I really want to give PF the benefit of the doubt, but there are some things that I really don't understand about published news paper reports of what she said. I am confused over it and if she could clear up some things then I would feel better and others would feel better. I got to get some things together and then I will post what is disturbing me.

[Cinderella]

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=38

Here is an oldie question from the CDT Forum

Q I'm a former central PA resident and went to Penn State. Your coverage has been excellent. Two questions: 1. Other than Ms. Fornicola, who was the last person known to have seen Mr. Gricar (before the disappearance)? 2. Have you ever produced a timeline of these events.
J. J., Phila, PA 11/17/05

A The answer to your first question: Police don't know who, other than Patty Fornicola, was the last to see him. Bellefonte police Officer Darrel Zaccagni said they never looked into that. Since Patty Fornicola "passed" the lie detector test earlier this year — part of which asked her if she had anything to do with Gricar's disappearance or knew where he was — they don't think it was important to look into it now. To answer your second question, yes, we have produced a timeline of events that has run with two feature stories. Copy and paste this link into your browser to see it: http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/13208445.htm
Erin Nissley 11/25/05

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
read quickly folks...they vanish or get locked ;)


She was the last person to truly have seen Ray Gricar, after he left work that Thursday evening.


False, as numerous witnesses saw him in Lewisburg, and possibly Fenton and Grine.


She was the provider of all the details that led police to believe he possibly just walked away.


False again. If she thought on 4/15/05 he walked away, why call LE; why accurately report the location of the call.


She was Darrell Zaccagni's buddy from years prior, and he pitied her, as evidenced by his press conference about the mystery woman. And from other sources, he made sure she got the Mini Cooper back quickly.


False again. Not buddies. MW was out well before the first year date and LE tried to find her. Also false on the return.


There was never a thorough search or forensic investigation at her home. And, police waited 3 months before administering a polygraph.


Date of polygraph has no bearing on the accuracy; you can't cram for one. House was searched and nothing found.


She was the one who went upstairs to the closet to fetch the laptop, and told police it wasn't there. And per Zaccagni, the laptop case was never even fingerprinted.


LE was present and requested her to get it. BTW, who told LE that the laptop existed? PEF.


She has also used laptop computers for several years, and is familiar with their operation & parts IMO.


And? You use a computer; so do I. Her job involved no great computer skills.


She is also familiar with Lewisburg and the Street of Shops, as she had been there before with Ray Gricar.


Ah, possibly excepting the out of town members of the Gricar family, so was everyone else.


And, the evening Gricar didn't come home, to *my* knowledge, she didn't call his best friend - asst DA Stephen Sloane, or any of RG's family members, just to see if they had spoken - instead, she phoned *her* brother.


Did make multiple calls to RFG's cellphone. Forgive me, but if I want to reach someone, I generally call their phone/cell phone. Called her brother for a male perspective.


No one can say where she was from Thursday night til she went to work the next day.


Again, most of the people in this case can't say where they were while they were asleep. I doubt if you could.


And per other sources, she provided an article to police, to be used for the scent dogs at Lewisburg. And we have no idea if that article truly belonged to Gricar.


My sources indicate something quite different.


IMO, she simply cannot be eliminated as a suspect in his disappearance - no way - no how.


If you ignore the at least five witnesses that saw RFG in Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05, the two possible sightings in Bellefonte at 3:00 PM, and the fact that his scent was in Lewisburg, you can't. In other words, if you decide to totally ignore the evidence you can say that. Most people are not you.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=38

Here is an oldie question from the CDT Forum

Q I'm a former central PA resident and went to Penn State. Your coverage has been excellent. Two questions: 1. Other than Ms. Fornicola, who was the last person known to have seen Mr. Gricar (before the disappearance)? 2. Have you ever produced a timeline of these events.
J. J., Phila, PA 11/17/05

A The answer to your first question: Police don't know who, other than Patty Fornicola, was the last to see him. Bellefonte police Officer Darrel Zaccagni said they never looked into that. Since Patty Fornicola "passed" the lie detector test earlier this year — part of which asked her if she had anything to do with Gricar's disappearance or knew where he was — they don't think it was important to look into it now. To answer your second question, yes, we have produced a timeline of events that has run with two feature stories. Copy and paste this link into your browser to see it: http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/13208445.htm
Erin Nissley 11/25/05 [/*]

I think the word is "before," but thank you showing that I was interested in checking out all possibilities. :)

[Cinderella]

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=12

Q I am wondering about the timeline of that Friday in April 2005. Did Ray not go into the office at all that morning ? In other words, did he watch Patty go off to work and he stayed behind at home ? And then he called in to the office himself as " OFF " for the day. Later he called Patty from his car while on Route 192 at about 11:15 AM? So we have at least 3 hours or so between the time Patty left for work to the time he called her on the cell phone that is not accounted for. Does that sum it up correctly ?
Anonymous, Albany, NY 11/28/06

A That sums it up correctly, yes. Ray did not go in to the office at all that fateful Friday. He was still home when Patty left for work. He later called Patty to tell her he would not be home at mid-day to walk the dog and that he was taking a drive on Route 192.
Pete Bosak 11/29/06

[Cinderella]

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=12

Q Are their any witnesses to Mr. Gricar and/or the Mini Cooper being in Bellefonte on the morning of 4/15/05, prior to the phone call to Ms. Fornicola at 11:30 AM? I'm thinking of neighbors, delivery people, or a letter carrier. As there was contact with Mr. Gricar after that, it might have gone unreported.
J. J., Philadelphia, PA 11/12/06


A None that I know of. Anyone out there have any ideas?
Pete Bosak 11/27/06

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=12

Q Are their any witnesses to Mr. Gricar and/or the Mini Cooper being in Bellefonte on the morning of 4/15/05, prior to the phone call to Ms. Fornicola at 11:30 AM? I'm thinking of neighbors, delivery people, or a letter carrier. As there was contact with Mr. Gricar after that, it might have gone unreported.
J. J., Philadelphia, PA 11/12/06


A None that I know of. Anyone out there have any ideas?
Pete Bosak 11/27/06 [/*]

Again, thank you for pointing out that I was interested in looking at that morning anbd noted other contact. :)

[Cinderella]

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=8

Q Hi, Pete. Great job you're doing so far. My question is "When did the police search Mr. Gricar's house?". I've never seen anything to indicate that an actual search ever took place.
Anonymous 1/12/07


A To my knowledge, the only search of the home was by Patty. That is how it was determined what police believe Gricar was wearing when he disappeared. Patty found those items of clothing missing. But police have said nothing unusual was found. That also is how police knew Ray's laptop was gone.
Pete Bosak 1/15/07

[Cinderella]

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=7


Q I totally agree with the statments from 'Burke, Va'....you just don't rely on statement from girlfriend, Patty...that there wasnt anything unusual in the home, etc...this jsut isnt stardard practice in any other case-why this one?? as well as the disregard of Ms.Fenton's sighting and sureness- totally dismissed without reason...just */c his car was found in Lewisburg?? Not good enough!
Anonymous, Winchester, VA 1/24/07

A Thanks for writing.
Pete Bosak 1/25/07

[Cinderella]

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=7


Q Pete, I too feel a search of the home should have been conducted. There was GROSS NEGLIGENCE in not doing one. The Lap Top in and of it self indicates a huge ‘out of the ordinary’ and a thorough search should have been conducted based on this alone. Not an – Oh lets see what Patty finds - attitude. Is Patty trained in forensics? Not likely. If I were to walk into your house with a gun or maybe in the back yard when you let your dog out (not that I would ever do such a thing) and say take your laptop and come with me - is there any sign of a struggle? Not likely. But there might be foot prints or some other tell-tail sign that a trained professional might have been able to discover that would be overlooked by a ‘distraught’ girlfriend. I have to ask again WHY this was not done? What possible, plausible, logical explanation can be given to excuse such a search. Something VERY disconcerting is going on here.
Anonymous, Burke VA 1/24/07


A Thanks for writing.
Pete Bosak 1/24/07

[J. J. in Phila]

Bellefonte police Officer Darrel Zaccagni, the lead investigator in the Gricar case, said the home Gricar shared with girlfriend Patty Fornicola was searched in the early days of the investigation, but nothing seemed to be amiss. Luminol, used to detect blood even if it has been washed away, was not used. "If we'd found something suspicious," Zaccagni said, they could have used it....
Erin Nissley 10/13/05


And...

I answered my last question on 11/25. Since then, I've gotten no questions that are easily answered, until yours: Police first began investigating Gricar's disappearance after his girlfriend and housemate Patty Fornicola called them at about 11:30 p.m. April 15. During the first days of investigation, police did not dust for fingerprints because "he was just a missing person," according to Bellefonte police Officer Darrel Zaccagni, the lead investigator in the case. After he hadn't returned home or shown up for work in the next few days, officers re-evaluated the case and went back to Fornicola's house to investigate further. While there, they looked for "any signs of obvious foul play - new carpeting, fresh scrub marks," Zaccagni said....
Erin Nissley 12/09/05

Now, let's all be critical of PB because he doesn't have a photographic memory.

BTW, if there was any question that I really was PB, that should dispel it. :biggrin:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=7


Q I totally agree with the statments from 'Burke, Va'....you just don't rely on statement from girlfriend, Patty...that there wasnt anything unusual in the home, etc...this jsut isnt stardard practice in any other case-why this one?? as well as the disregard of Ms.Fenton's sighting and sureness- totally dismissed without reason...just */c his car was found in Lewisburg?? Not good enough!
Anonymous, Winchester, VA 1/24/07

A Thanks for writing.
Pete Bosak 1/25/07 [/*]

Is the person inferring CF's siting to be true or the theory that PF did something to him is true? Can't have it both ways. If he was sited at 3 pm in the parking lot on 4/15/05, then no one has done anything to him.

He probably was the man in Mi with the older woman, on his way to Canada and then Slovenia, as former Judge O'Kicki did. And wasn't that siting by a LE officer, or former one? Just curious.

[Cinderella]

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=7

Here is the earlier post

Q Pete, I too feel a search of the home should have been conducted. There was GROSS NEGLIGENCE in not doing one. The Lap Top in and of it self indicates a huge ‘out of the ordinary’ and a thorough search should have been conducted based on this alone. Not an – Oh lets see what Patty finds - attitude. Is Patty trained in forensics? Not likely. If I were to walk into your house with a gun or maybe in the back yard when you let your dog out (not that I would ever do such a thing) and say take your laptop and come with me - is there any sign of a struggle? Not likely. But there might be foot prints or some other tell-tail sign that a trained professional might have been able to discover that would be overlooked by a ‘distraught’ girlfriend. I have to ask again WHY this was not done? What possible, plausible, logical explanation can be given to excuse such a search. Something VERY disconcerting is going on here.
Anonymous, Burke VA 1/24/07

A Thanks for writing.
Pete Bosak 1/24/07

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Is the person inferring CF's siting to be true or the theory that PF did something to him is true? Can't have it both ways. If he was sited at 3 pm in the parking lot on 4/15/05, then no one has done anything to him.


Being objective, we have reports of the cell phone records after work, but they have never released a log.


He probably was the man in Mi with the older woman, on his way to Canada and then Slovenia, as former Judge O'Kicki did. And wasn't that siting by a LE officer, or former one? Just curious. [/*]

This was several months afterward. If RFG wanted to go to Canada, he could have gotten there a lot more quickly.

Judge Grine, ironically, was a former State College police officer and formerly was the DA who first hired RFG. You would think that if anyone would have recognized RFG, it would be Judge Grine.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Being objective, we have reports of the cell phone records after work, but they have never released a log.



This was several months afterward. If RFG wanted to go to Canada, he could have gotten there a lot more quickly.

Judge Grine, ironically, was a former State College police officer and formerly was the DA who first hired RFG. You would think that if anyone would have recognized RFG, it would be Judge Grine. [/*]

Maybe he was seeing the USA, maybe one of the marked routes he had on his map at the office, before he made it over the border to Canada? Did anyone ever check the map and compare it to the places where he was "supposedly" sited?

That whole situation with Judge Grine and Carolyn Fenton sounded odd to me. There had to be some way of checking whether it was Friday or another day they both saw him in the parking lot. Did CF leave early 2 days, maybe Thursday and Friday?

Ray was off Thursday afternoon, could have been the day he got his ride (car) to get out of town, park it somewhere that day, to be used on Friday. Wasn't Thursday afternoon the day JKA thought she heard the door shutting loudly in his office? Could have come in and picked something up and had the car in the lot then? To be seen by Judge Grine and CF when leaving the lot?

Who would have helped him get the car? Who was off work on Thursday and Friday? SS was off both days. How good of a friend is he? A lady friend from out of town who might be visiting the area? A friend who owned his own business and could come and go as he pleased? A loyal employee?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Maybe he was seeing the USA, maybe one of the marked routes he had on his map at the office, before he made it over the border to Canada? Did anyone ever check the map and compare it to the places where he was "supposedly" sited?


Time wise, the sightings don't fit. The Texas and LA sighting occurred well after Michigan, IIRC.


That whole situation with Judge Grine and Carolyn Fenton sounded odd to me. There had to be some way of checking whether it was Friday or another day they both saw him in the parking lot. Did CF leave early 2 days, maybe Thursday and Friday?


Grine seemed to have been very cooperative, but they couldn't make that determination.

I'm not answering the rest of your questions because I don't have an answer. I think they are excellent questions.

Ultimately, I think the answer to this case is to ask the right questions. I think you've just asked a few of them.

[Cinderella]

Logic,

In the post you first referred to I thnk that the person was very upset that PF's house was not searched. I thought what they were trying to say was that PF's house should have been investigated.

[sherrijean981]

Logic just showed how much PF knew about investigations and how she helped with it. She opened her home up to LE and they were in and out of her home, she gave them the computer, even asking if they wanted the laptop. She gave them all the help they needed. Guess it wasn't enough for the public, not even the very thorough lie detector test she and Lara took. Hours of grueling questions on both of them.

What more do you want from her?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Thanks for posting this.

The person posting assumed there is no knowledge of forensics, but a probation/parole officer is trained to conduct search and seizure, licensed to carry a firearm, and is skilled in electronic monitoring and computer usage. The probation officer also has complete knowledge of an investigation from start to finish. The poster's assumption is incorrect, IMO.

http://www.answers.com/topic/probation-officer?cat=biz-fin [/*]

Actually, in PA, a gun is optional and requires training IIRC. No actual forensic investigation is involved, and PEF hadn't been one for a while.

Here a generic job description from Bucks County:

http://www.buckscounty.org/courts/Criminal/AdultProbation/Jobs/ProbOfficer.aspx

I know a few people that do it and it's not an "investigative" job.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



LOL....... Twist and shout, SJ.
Enough for the public? When the standard for an investigation falls that low, NO ONE is safe. It can't get any worse.

Question though.....why are you so certain of the LD test results? [/*]

I don't believe DZ did everything on his own. He had a superior officer. DZ has screwed up, but there were other's in on that investigation, and LE is not going to let a citizen call the shots.
PSP, Secret Service and FBI don't take orders from a citizen.

You can say it all you want but it doesn't make it so. TG, LG and CG were all in PF's home. Do you think for one minute there wasn't any looking around going on, you can probably think again.

Why are you so uncertain of the test results? Why has your attitude changed so much from looking at "signs" to now ready to throw the rope over the tree?

[gstickley]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


(snip)

Why are you so uncertain of the test results? Why has your attitude changed so much from looking at "signs" to now ready to throw the rope over the tree? [/*]

This is at least the second time posters who have questions about "the soulmate" have been met with a phrase such as "throw the rope over the tree", the last being the labeling of posters as "lynch mob" as per S1 a few months ago.

I personally find this type language very offensive. There is absolutely no reason for this type offront to posters who have questions about the investigation or persons involved in same. At no time do I ever remember seeing or hearing that this was a message board strictly for those who agree with some; I was under the impression that this was a message board for the views of whomever wished to post.

The regular derogatory remarks, put-downs, insinuations, accusations, veiled threats, etc., of posters are bad enough, but the above is totally uncalled for.

JMO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by gstickley


This is at least the second time posters who have questions about "the soulmate" have been met with a phrase such as "throw the rope over the tree", the last being the labeling of posters as "lynch mob" as per S1 a few months ago.

I personally find this type language very offensive. There is absolutely no reason for this type offront to posters who have questions about the investigation or persons involved in same. At no time do I ever remember seeing or hearing that this was a message board strictly for those who agree with some; I was under the impression that this was a message board for the views of whomever wished to post.

The regular derogatory remarks, put-downs, insinuations, accusations, veiled threats, etc., of posters are bad enough, but the above is totally uncalled for.

JMO [/*]

You are definitely on a roll G Stickley...

kudos!

[Cinderella]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gstickley


This is at least the second time posters who have questions about "the soulmate" have been met with a phrase such as "throw the rope over the tree", the last being the labeling of posters as "lynch mob" as per S1 a few months ago.

I personally find this type language very offensive. There is absolutely no reason for this type offront to posters who have questions about the investigation or persons involved in same. At no time do I ever remember seeing or hearing that this was a message board strictly for those who agree with some; I was under the impression that this was a message board for the views of whomever wished to post.

The regular derogatory remarks, put-downs, insinuations, accusations, veiled threats, etc., of posters are bad enough, but the above is totally uncalled for.
----------------------------

I totally agree and I think that the posts directed at the posters need to stop. We are not here to attack others, we are here to find the truth. As far as what I know or who told me what is no ones business. I would say stop the harassment.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley


This is at least the second time posters who have questions about "the soulmate" have been met with a phrase such as "throw the rope over the tree", the last being the labeling of posters as "lynch mob" as per S1 a few months ago.



I think it is a quite accurate term for a few posters.

1. We had one that started a thread (now deleted) insisting that PEF made the cell phone call, even though it was impossible for her to get to the location. That was such a fiasco that author contacted Coldwater to change the title.

2. We've had posters insisting that PEF was the one who first mentioned the suicide of Roy Gricar, only to find that the mention of Water Street instantly triggered it n the mind of TG and CG (completely expectedly).

3. We've had posters insisting that PEF brought up the Cleveland trip, only to find it was Sloane.

4. We have this thread insisting that DZ is a "buddy" of PEF, yet, at best, we have a media report that said DZ remembered her from 1981, when she was in high school then the niece of a prominent local businessman an politician. He didn't even indicate that the two had ever spoken prior to her call that night (though I'm sure in a town of less 7,000 people, they had).

5. We've had numerous posters insist that PEF changed her story, yet, when ask for examples, no one can provide one.

6. We've had one poster insisting that there was reason to believe that RFG wasn't living with PEF, yet all his things were there, he never changed his mailing address, never told his daughter not to call him there, never rented a motel room, and never stayed with a friend. Oh, and, BTW, the day RFG disappeared, he was driving a car registered to PEF.

7. We've had several posters suggesting that, even though PEF had no idea where he was, and hadn't been heard from in 12 hours, she should go out, at night and perform a one woman search for him.

8. We've seen numerous posters insisting that PEF wanted to get married, RFG didn't, and it was a gift instead of a ring at Christmas 2004. Yet TG drove it, apparently at a high rate of speed, :) in July 2004.

9. We've had posters insist that PEF's job change was so that she could be "close" to RFG, yet she was still in the same and wouldn't as much of a chance as VWA of being with him in court.

"Lynch mob" is accurate.


I personally find this type language very offensive. There is absolutely no reason for this type offront to posters who have questions about the investigation or persons involved in same. At no time do I ever remember seeing or hearing that this was a message board strictly for those who agree with some; I was under the impression that this was a message board for the views of whomever wished to post.

The regular derogatory remarks, put-downs, insinuations, accusations, veiled threats, etc., of posters are bad enough, but the above is totally uncalled for.

JMO [/*]

Many times, I've been accused of working for TG, PEF, being with LE, being PB, occasionally being RFG, and having "inside information," old Lustor's famous charge. I usually provided a link.

Yes, I'd call that "derogatory remarks, put-downs, insinuations, accusations," though I don't recall any threats.

[day2day]

I really don't think that sj meant that "literally"....I also think that we ALL get very emotional about this case ....but i do understand what you are talkin bout gs. PF can be a VERY touchy subject here and i will never understand why!

IMHO-I will NEVER be able to stop looking at PF because the whole darn story revolves around HER. NOT to look at her in this case would just be silly...(right DZ?!!?)

[J. J. in Phila]

GS, I forgot one. Your claim that I said JKA could have been involved in the murder of RFG, in my murder scenario. I said that you could eliminate DA's Office staff, which would naturally include her.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day
I really don't think that sj meant that "literally"....I also think that we ALL get very emotional about this case ....but i do understand what you are talkin bout gs. PF can be a VERY touchy subject here and i will never understand why!

IMHO-I will NEVER be able to stop looking at PF because the whole darn story revolves around HER. NOT to look at her in this case would just be silly...(right DZ?!!?) [/*]

I think that you were correct, in the Spring/Summer of 2005. She was looked at, however. No apparent means, no apparent motives, and no opportunity, that I can find.

[sherrijean981]

Ok! I touched a nerve here didn't I?

I have sat here reading every night the posts by pgal, gstickley, lw and cinderella constantly trying to get the case pointed to PF. I look at it different and ask a question and I am now being jumped on by all. Really pi$$ed you off didn't I?

Not my intention to do so but......

[Cinderella]

SherriJean, you are off topic.

hammer

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
SherriJean, you are off topic.

hammer [/*]

Cinderella, I have just as much right to respond to something on this forum as you do.

I am no more off topic than any of the other posters on here. I was discussing PF.

I have not ask you any questions, have not specifically worded anything TO you and if you don't like my posts then pass on by.

Your name got mentioned because you and LW have referred to reports about the case, but no links to them. I ask where the info is coming from and how it was gotten. If you are posting something supposedly from a report it should be linked. Per TOS.

[Politigal]

In today's Centredaily article about RG's case...it's mentioned that he had discussed people/places/things from Cleveland and of course, good ole Mel Wiley was one of those topics.

Doncha think - that more than likely - RG discussed things about Cleveland with his *soulmate* too?

I'd bet my bottom $$.

[Politigal]

After all....RG took Patty to Cleveland on their first date.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
In today's Centredaily article about RG's case...it's mentioned that he had discussed people/places/things from Cleveland and of course, good ole Mel Wiley was one of those topics.

Doncha think - that more than likely - RG discussed things about Cleveland with his *soulmate* too?

I'd bet my bottom $$. [/*]

I'm sure he did, but it would tell us more about RFG mindset if he were talking about the Wiley case with PEF. That case didn't happen in Cleveland, but in another county, and happened more than 15 years prior to their relationship.

We now have RFG talking about Wiley at least seven years after it happened, more than 200 miles from where it happened, with someone, Sloane, with no connection to the place where it happened. If you want to more than double that time, be my guest. :rolleyes:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I'm sure he did, but it would tell us more about RFG mindset if he were talking about the Wiley case with PEF. That case didn't happen in Cleveland, but in another county, and happened more than 15 years prior to their relationship.

We now have RFG talking about Wiley at least seven years after it happened, more than 200 miles from where it happened, with someone, Sloane, with no connection to the place where it happened. If you want to more than double that time, be my guest. :rolleyes: [/*]

He wouldn't have been with PF at that time either. Wasn't he still married to BG? I wonder what she would have to say about that particular case, if she remembers it or RG talking about it?

[Politigal]

I don't think RG has ever been described as mute.

My point was....that RG could just as easily have discussed Mel Wiley with Patty Fornicola as he had with Sloane or anyone else - whether it be in 1992 or 2005.

Patty *could* have been aware of the Mel Wiley case details.

That's all

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
I don't think RG has ever been described as mute.

My point was....that RG could just as easily have discussed Mel Wiley with Patty Fornicola as he had with Sloane or anyone else - whether it be in 1992 or 2005.

Patty *could* have been aware of the Mel Wiley case details.

That's all [/*]

If RFG is still talking about 16-20 years after it happened; I'd find that unusual.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


If RFG is still talking about 16-20 years after it happened; I'd find that unusual. [/*]

Why? Don't you talk to people about things that have happened in the past? I can remember my father talking about all kinds of things from 20-30 years previously. Good and bad.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


If RFG is still talking about 16-20 years after it happened; I'd find that unusual. [/*]

come on JJ....

think about other unsolved cases - that people still talk about years down the road.

and especially if they occurred in your own "back yard"...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


come on JJ....

think about other unsolved cases - that people still talk about years down the road.

and especially if they occurred in your own "back yard"... [/*]

P'gal, Wiley was not unsolved, per se. LE stated what they think a walkway happened and that is what was published. The mystery isn't what happened, but where did he go (which isn't a police issue).

It wasn't, by August of 1985, LE saying, we don't know what happened to Mel Wiley. They were saying, at that point, Wiley walked away from his life.

It is still an odd subject to be discussing seven years (possibly more) after the fact, even if raised during O'Kicki's flight.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ please don't tell me your trying to shrug RG off as another Wiley case and hoping they say that about RG are ya?hammer

[Cloudbuster]

JJ O'kicki disappeared to Slovania but his manuscript also did a MIA act. That manuscript initself is a mystery at which I believe Keisling would say that too. It just never saw the light of day. I guess you know whats in it too? I bet thats all you know about it.;)

[J. J. in Phila]

I seriously doubt that O'Kicki ever really had a manuscript.

I do not see a connection between O'Kicki flight from the law, as it was reported and how Wiley was reported.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ I will bet he did have one but ya your right there is no connection between O"kicki or Wiley. They say Wiley is out there but you gotta admit it makes you wonder is he really?

[Cinderella]

I just wanted to mention that I have this article snipped in many places. Please read the link provided.


http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index...&storylist=penn

'Sensitivity' cited in missing DA mystery woman disclosure

5/10/2006, 7:15 p.m. ET
By GENARO C. ARMAS
The Associated Press

BELLEFONTE, Pa. (AP) — Ray F. Gricar's family faced a mountain of pressure in the days after the prosecutor disappeared last year.

In part out of sensitivity to the distraught family, authorities did not publicly release details of a witness' account that Gricar may have been seen with a woman the day that he was reported missing, the lead investigator in the case said Wednesday.

Police initially addressed the issue publicly in generalities, asking for anyone who spoke with or who may have seen the Centre County district attorney to come forward with any new information, Bellefonte Police Officer Darrel Zaccagni said.

"We were trying to show a little sensitivity. We didn't blow it up as a big to-do thing," Zaccagni said. "At the same time, we also talked about it for those people to come forward."

"This is not a bombshell piece of evidence," Police Chief Shawn Weaver said. "Now it still might not be the lead we are looking for, however, we just decided to bring it back out, looking at the case file and rehashing different situations."

A witness inside an antiques market in Lewisburg initially reported seeing Gricar with a woman on April 15, 2005. Gricar and the woman were walking through the market and did not make any physical contact, the witness reported.

Gricar was reported missing that night by his girlfriend of several years after he failed to return to the home they shared in Bellefonte.

Gricar's nephew, Tony Gricar, said he understands why sensitivity may have been an issue in holding back details publicly about the woman in the Lewisburg market. However, he has said it would be highly uncharacteristic for his busy uncle to have been seeing someone else.

"From a sensitivity standpoint, if that's the possibility of besmirching his name, to us that has never been an issue," said Tony Gricar, of Dayton, Ohio, after speaking with police by phone on Wednesday.

Zaccagni, who began talking to reporters about the case later in 2005, said that he has made reference to the woman in Lewisburg through general statements about Gricar having possibly been seen with women at several reported — but unfruitful — sightings.

[Cinderella]

http://www.wjactv.com/news/9191919/detail.html

Snip
-------------------------------

A witness reported seeing Gricar walking with a woman in the Lewisburg Antique Mall the day Gricar was reported missing.

The woman is described as 5' 8" tall, with dark hair, attractive and in her mid-thirties to early forties.

Darrel Zaccagni of the Bellefonte Police Department said, though this is not new information, police initially didn't want to interview the woman because of concerns for Gricar's family and his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola.

Snip
______________________________

[sherrijean981]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cinderella
I just wanted to mention that I have this article snipped in many places. Please read the link provided.


http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index...&storylist=penn

"A witness inside an antiques market in Lewisburg initially reported seeing Gricar with a woman on April 15, 2005. Gricar and the woman were walking through the market and did not make any physical contact, the witness reported."
Quote



There was a search with dogs with RG's scent. It was stated he walked just a couple yards from his car. There is no report that RG was, in fact, in the SOS or with a woman, and it was never reported that the dogs scented INSIDE the SOS.

Even Carla Baron's sidekick, who is supposed to be a medium, was inside the SOS, looking at a map of Shikelley Park with someone in LE, never mentioned "seeing him or feeling his presence inside the shop" and from the show's video they were sitting near the cafe, where the owner supposedly saw him.

He might have been seen but if he was in the park or in the SOS, why didn't the dogs get a scent to the doors of the Shoppes?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


He might have been seen but if he was in the park or in the SOS, why didn't the dogs get a scent to the doors of the Shoppes? [/*]

1. The witness could have been wrong.

2. The scent could have been destroyed, just through natural processes.

[Cinderella]

My big Million Dollar question is what was the dog scented with? That could very much change the scenario. :shrug:

Not only that but they opened the car prior to the dog or dogs being there. They also towed the car away from the site. Now that is a pretty tuff situation for a dog to be exact.

Also when they put the car on the lift truck, did someone sit inside the car to steel the car?

[Politigal]

Question for Tony ---

Why is it nowhere in the case file - on what article of clothing was used (that Patty gave to police) to scent the dogs with?

And how does anyone know it was an article that truly belonged to RG?

[day2day]

Originally posted by Politigal
Question for Tony ---

Why is it nowhere in the case file - on what article of clothing was used (that Patty gave to police) to scent the dogs with?

And how does anyone know it was an article that truly belonged to RG? [/*]

Those are two really important questions pgal. For the life of me I can't figure out WHY the article of clothing used to scent the dogs has to be SUCH a mystery...:shrug:

[Cinderella]

Maybe it has to do with what they used. Maybe they assumed that Ray drove the car then and they might have used the car seat. :rolleyes:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cinderella Maybe it has to do with what they used. Maybe they assumed that Ray drove the car then and they might have used the car seat. TG already posted that "it was clothing"; that the "car was not used for scenting." I understood Politigal's question. Within the context of her preferred scenario, it makes perfect sense to ask if LE could have been duped by being given a false item of clothing for scenting. The problem, as I see it, is that it is probably unknowable at this point. MOO

[Cinderella]

I didn't see the post of Tony Gricar's. I asked Pete and he didn't know. He looked into it and couldn't find answers. He is still trying to find an answer. So maybe you can refer me to the post of Tony's that states what was used.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
TG already posted that "it was clothing"; that the "car was not used for scenting." I understood Politigal's question. Within the context of her preferred scenario, it makes perfect sense to ask if LE could have been duped by being given a false item of clothing for scenting. The problem, as I see it, is that it is probably unknowable at this point. MOO [/*]


Bingo. Just another thing that bothers me about this case :(.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
TG already posted that "it was clothing"; that the "car was not used for scenting." I understood Politigal's question. Within the context of her preferred scenario, it makes perfect sense to ask if LE could have been duped by being given a false item of clothing for scenting. The problem, as I see it, is that it is probably unknowable at this point. MOO [/*]

LE still should have that item that they used in evidence. Now I am really getting you P$$$$$ off.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I didn't see the post of Tony Gricar's. I asked Pete and he didn't know. He looked into it and couldn't find answers. He is still trying to find an answer. So maybe you can refer me to the post of Tony's that states what was used.

LE still should have that item that they used in evidence. Now I am really getting you P$$$$$ off. It was in your thread! Look it up. Then again, it is Friday...so I hesitate to ask what your theory-of-the-week might be. . . .:eek:

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It was in your thread! Look it up. Then again, it is Friday...so I hesitate to ask what your theory-of-the-week might be. . . .:eek: [/*]


Oh when you talk against PF or question her then you get made fun of. It is ok to talk about JKA though. I think that you may need a drink. I wish that I was there and could hand you one. But then again being that it is Friday, I just might spill it all over you. That would be so terrible.

[Cinderella]

Does anyone have the post as to what Tony stated that the dog or dogs were scented to? After all it is Friday and I am incapable of finding it. Actually on the week-ends, I turn into a Werewolf and howl all week-end. Maybe I should start to drink like S1.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I didn't see the post of Tony Gricar's. I asked Pete and he didn't know. He looked into it and couldn't find answers. He is still trying to find an answer. So maybe you can refer me to the post of Tony's that states what was used. [/*]

I asked PB, and he believes it was clothing; my impression was that selected by someone else other than PEF. I think it would be quite a stretch to assume that any killer would plan that detail, without knowing that LE would use dogs. It's also a gigantic stretch to think that simply touching clothing would be sufficient to implant someone else's scent on the item.

While cross contamination is possible, it is not assured. While I've looking at the possibility for months on the net, I've yet to see a way, that if I wanted to plant my scent on another item, I could have an assured method of doing it.

At worst, the dogs wouldn't pick up anything, which would be inconclusive.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal
Question for Tony ---

Why is it nowhere in the case file - on what article of clothing was used (that Patty gave to police) to scent the dogs with?

And how does anyone know it was an article that truly belonged to RG? [/*]It's not in the case file?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
It's not in the case file? [/*]

I've heard the same thing, though I would expect that the file is quite thick by this point.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I've heard the same thing, though I would expect that the file is quite thick by this point. [/*]My assumption would be that the BPD needs to confer with either PSP or the county that provided the canine unit.

Of all the things that may or may not have slipped through the cracks, in terms of investigation or chain of custody, the scent item is as useful as the car is now and isn't high on my list of critiques.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
My assumption would be that the BPD needs to confer with either PSP or the county that provided the canine unit.

Of all the things that may or may not have slipped through the cracks, in terms of investigation or chain of custody, the scent item is as useful as the car is now and isn't high on my list of critiques. [/*]

What is highest on your list?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
My assumption would be that the BPD needs to confer with either PSP or the county that provided the canine unit.


Possibly, I'll check again.


Of all the things that may or may not have slipped through the cracks, in terms of investigation or chain of custody, the scent item is as useful as the car is now and isn't high on my list of critiques. [/*]

Nor mine, by a long shot.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal
What is highest on your list? [/*]I maintain a policy of discussing various things with LE prior to public disclosure. I'm sure you understand. (New sig file below... :D)


--------------------
"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?", said PG.
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said TG.
"I don't much care where—" said PG.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the TG.
"—so long as I get somewhere," PG added as an explanation.
"Oh, you're sure to do that," said TG, "If you only walk long enough."

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I maintain a policy of discussing various things with LE prior to public disclosure. I'm sure you understand. (New sig file below... :D)


--------------------
"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?", said PG.
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said TG.
"I don't much care where—" said PG.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the TG.
"—so long as I get somewhere," PG added as an explanation.
"Oh, you're sure to do that," said TG, "If you only walk long enough." [/*]

hmmm

interesting :biggrin:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


hmmm

interesting :biggrin: [/*]

But quite reasonable.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


But quite reasonable. [/*]

shouldn't you edit that to say:

"all amazing knowledge for a disabled guy in Philly with an analytical mind who will argue with a brick wall at the drop of a hat"

:hat:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


shouldn't you edit that to say:

"all amazing knowledge for a disabled guy in Philly with an analytical mind who will argue with a brick wall at the drop of a hat"

:hat: [/*]

No but I can always toss in the quote from PB.I like descriptions from real people. :)

[Cinderella]

I would like to know what they used. Hopefully it wasn't the car seat. I hope that they just didn't assume that Ray was the last person to drive the Mini. The way that this case has gone, you never know.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I would like to know what they used. Hopefully it wasn't the car seat. I hope that they just didn't assume that Ray was the last person to drive the Mini. The way that this case has gone, you never know. [/*]

It wasn't the BPD that dealt with the dogs.

[Politigal]

Does anyone have the last date that Patty actually spoke to the media about this case?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
Does anyone have the last date that Patty actually spoke to the media about this case? [/*]

Formal interview or background-type. If it's the latter, I'd guess sometime in late 2007 or early 2008.

[day2day]

Why do PF's accounts of Friday morning vary SO much?Sometimes Mr. Gricar is sleeping when she leaves and she leaves him a note saying to call if he's going anywhere so she can come home and take care of the dog. Other times they go through their morning routine and Honey is discussed in the conversation?

Also from the famous Dateline interview.. "I just want to be with him"...the next second..."Now I don't know where he is?"

Just a couple thoughts...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day
Why do PF's accounts of Friday morning vary SO much?Sometimes Mr. Gricar is sleeping when she leaves and she leaves him a note saying to call if he's going anywhere so she can come home and take care of the dog. Other times they go through their morning routine and Honey is discussed in the conversation?



As far as I know, they are not. He went back to sleep. I don't recall any conversation about Honey.


Also from the famous Dateline interview.. "I just want to be with him"...the next second..."Now I don't know where he is?"


She wants to be with him where ever he is.

[Politigal]

Keeping with the premise (IMO) that RG met with foul play (murder) ----

Statistics show that a greater number of homicides involve victims/killers who knew each other or had some relationship to each other.

And, in any good homicide investigation, it involves looking very closely at the last known person to have been with the victim.

In this case - that is none other than Patty Fornicola.

Unfortunately however, with the help of Darrel Zaccagni, it appears PF was able to steer this case away from Bellefonte - away from homicide - and away from the truth.

That is evident with the recent shocking revelation that no identifiable prints were even found in RG's Mini Cooper - which was totally opposite of what Zaccagni had told us all from the start.

I think it's a shame that Zaccagni was ever a part of this case - and IMO - lots of investigative opportunities were lost, wasted or not even utilized -- and the opportunity to gather forensic evidence was lost as well.

I think Matt Rickard certainly has his work cut out for him - but I think he has to go back to square one and start all over. Doing anything less would continue the slipshod manner in which the case was dealt with at the start.

Ray Gricar deserves more.

JMHO

[Serendipitous1]

But...........how many victims in the statistical analyses were career DAs, about to retire? Whole 'nother can of worms, IMO.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
But...........how many victims in the statistical analyses were career DAs, about to retire? Whole 'nother can of worms, IMO. [/*]

IMO, his career has nothing to do with his disappearance.

[Laws]

I agree wholeheartedly Pgal.

The killer, imo is deriving pleasure not only in his demise but in holding him away from his family as well. If I can't have him you can't either.

The regular criminal seeking revenge doesn't seek to punish the children of their victim which is what we are seeing in this absurdity that has so inadequately been addressed.

[Cinderella]

Hey, it is like this:

Just like the guy that stated that he saw Ray the morning of April 15, 2005, it will never come out, because if it does that means PF is lying. We could never have that. She didn't believe that CF saw Ray either, that was right away discounted.

It is Patty's story and she will spin it the way that she wants.

Happy Saint Patty's Day everyone. Don't you see the green?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Hey, it is like this:

Just like the guy that stated that he saw Ray the morning of April 15, 2005, it will never come out, because if it does that means PF is lying. [/*]

Why? If he talks to LE the only thing it shows is RG was alive and PF was wrong on the time in the am or your man was wrong on the time in the am? But still alive in the am of 4/15/05 and PF was at work.

[sherrijean981]

Some feel the investigation was lax on the home and PF. No forensics done. Months between the disappearance and her polygraph.

You could go back to the very beginning and read all threads (although there were many removed) and see some have felt that way from the very beginning.

I am not one.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
I can tell that there are some here that truly feel Patty has some guilt in what has happened to RG. Since I'm new on this thread and just trying to follow here and there, I have no idea what they are basing this on. I have asked before but it seems no one really wants to say.

Can someone provide me with a link or two to review that might show why Patty is suspect to some? Or would anyone be willing to give their theory or theories about how she might have been involved? TIA [/*]

About the only think that has even been close to being suggested is jealousy. Evidence is lacking, to say the least.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
I can tell that there are some here that truly feel Patty has some guilt in what has happened to RG. Since I'm new on this thread and just trying to follow here and there, I have no idea what they are basing this on. I have asked before but it seems no one really wants to say.

Can someone provide me with a link or two to review that might show why Patty is suspect to some? Or would anyone be willing to give their theory or theories about how she might have been involved? TIA [/*]


It will be truly interesting to see how you view the situation when you are up to date on the case. At least you will be accepted on whatever way you decide. I would suggest that you go into it with an open mind.

[kelloggirl]

In general, I think the investigation was lax, perhaps even bungled, and that is going to raise questions about how everything was handled, included PF, but I still just can't wrap my head around her involvement even though I am usually the first to suspect the Sig Other.

Note: The questions below are my thought process, not meant to be slanderous of PF, argumentative or questioning of any one's theories on the board, but if someone can address them, I'd welcome the discussion.

First question: Why would she have done it? The usual motives are greed, jealousy, revenge. None of these seem to fit. They weren't married, it wasn't like she was going to get life insurance money. And if she was, she wouldn't have made the body disappear and have to wait for it to be found. It would be discovered fast to get the estate moving. As for the jealousy or revenge, is there any solid evidence of his vocalizing an intent to leave her? The mystery woman? Usually in many of the cases where the spouse is suspected, probing usually yields insights about troubled marriages, restraining orders, abuse, affairs, etc. Or she wanted out? Who is she running around town with, does she have a new relationship? I haven't read anything, not to mean it's not possible. OK, so assuming there is a motive...that still leaves me with the second question.

Second question: How did she do it? When? How did she make him disappear so thoroughly? Did she pull a Melanie McGuire? If not, who helped her? Why?

Also, another note on her passing the lie detector test - are we seriously comparing this woman to the Green River Killer, a sociopathic/psychopathic serial killer with no remorse and no conscience (which is why he was able to pass)?

I don't know, it just doesn't fit for me. If it was foul play, and I suspect it was, I do think his position as DA had something to do with it. But I do agree that it seems like signs point to the perp being someone who knew Ray.

[Cinderella]

If Ray had decided that he didn't want to spend the rest of his life with her or she found out that he was secretly meeting someone else, I could see her doing it. Her saying to me that she told him that he wanted out of the relationship just didn't go right with me. Her talking about her ex and how she felt about that would make me feel if Ray did want to leave she would be enraged.

Also I know what she said about changing jobs. I doesn't make any sense if she thought that she would be retiring with Ray. I wonder if she suspected that he was seeing someone else and wanted to get closer to find out if he indeed was seeing someone else.

Even though the shop owner and the other person stated that PF was not the person with Ray, PF was in denial over the fact that it could have been.

I am not suggesting that she did it. I do believe she might have had a motive to do it.

Also when she talks about Ray, I don't feel any love in her tone.

[Cinderella]

I also wanted to state that PF's ex husband would knew her well and what she would be capable of. I thnk LE should talk to him.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cinderella <Snip>
Her saying to me that she told him that he wanted out of the relationship... I snipped the only part of your post, now offered as 'fact' rather than opinion, to illustrate your predilection for revisionism. MOO
Lest others should become as confused, here is what you previously posted:
Originally posted by Cinderella
We were discussing what might have happened. PF made the statement that due to her conversation with Ray at the beginning of their relationship that if he wanted to leave, she would rather have him leave than to stay in the relationship when he didn't want to.

[Serendipitous1]

kelloggirl: in opposition to the circumstantial suspicions, 'hinky' feelings, attempts at 'pigeon-holing', bald-faced revisionist history, and unsupported accusations displayed here, nothing...repeat...nothing factual has been offered (here or anywhere that I am aware of) which suggests PF had anything to do with RG's disappearance. MOO

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I snipped the only part of your post, now offered as 'fact' rather than opinion, to illustrate your predilection for revisionism. MOO
Lest others should become as confused, here is what you previously posted:
[/*]


S1, You are right, I just reread what I wrote. PF never said that Ray wanted out. Sorry S1, some people do make mistakes, even PF.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I snipped the only part of your post, now offered as 'fact' rather than opinion, to illustrate your predilection for revisionism. MOO
Lest others should become as confused, here is what you previously posted:
[/*]

That is exactly what was said and she was very honest about it. That subject did not just come out of the blue. There had been more than just that subject.

My opinion, there was plenty of love in her tone, in her eyes, when she spoke of Ray. She presented herself as having a lot of feelings yet for him. And hope that he would come home.

JMO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I snipped the only part of your post, now offered as 'fact' rather than opinion, to illustrate your predilection for revisionism. MOO
Lest others should become as confused, here is what you previously posted:


Originally posted by Cinderella
We were discussing what might have happened. PF made the statement that due to her conversation with Ray at the beginning of their relationship that if he wanted to leave, she would rather have him leave than to stay in the relationship when he didn't want to.
[/*]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When PF made the statement to us, she said, That she told him if there ever came a time that he wanted to leave and, she would rather he TOLD her he wanted to, than to stay in a bad relationship.

It was due to her ex and that marriage.

[sherrijean981]

The polygraph tests on LG and PF were not done by LE, they were done by Secret Service officers, and it was mentioned a couple of times in different articles posted on the forum.

[Cinderella]

The day that we did speak to PF personally, she did have a more emotional tone then she did on Camera. She did start to cry.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by kelloggirl


Note: The questions below are my thought process, not meant to be slanderous of PF, argumentative or questioning of any one's theories on the board, but if someone can address them, I'd welcome the discussion.

First question: Why would she have done it? The usual motives are greed, jealousy, revenge. None of these seem to fit. They weren't married, it wasn't like she was going to get life insurance money.


Hi HG, I did wish to disclose your disclaimer. I think you raise some valid points, but it's stronger than you suggest.

In terms of household income, RFG was contributing to the household. He (rightly, IMO) was paying some bills. Without him there, PEF's financial situation became worse.

On the point of jealousy, this was PEF's situation. She inherited the house, though it had a mortgage. It was never RFG's house. The car was put in her name at purchasing. If she wanted to end it, she could just say, **Get out of my house and don't take my car to do it.**


Second question: How did she do it? When? How did she make him disappear so thoroughly? Did she pull a Melanie McGuire? If not, who helped her? Why?


In this regard, more specific questions are how did she create the illusion with at least five witnesses that RFG was walking around Lewisburg? How did she manage to plant his scent in the parking lot.

I'll piggyback on to your disclaimer. I very seriously considered the possibility that PEF ad RFG met after work on 4/15/05 in Lewisburg, but from what has been intimated about her time line, she didn't enough time to drive their and drive back.


Also, another note on her passing the lie detector test - are we seriously comparing this woman to the Green River Killer, a sociopathic/psychopathic serial killer with no remorse and no conscience (which is why he was able to pass)?


Polygraphs are not infallible, and it is possible, but about 90% unlikely that PEF could lie and make it look like the truth. In one case, that RFG prosecuted , a killer, suffering from postpartum depression did kill her child and blocked it out; she did pass the polygraph. It's a lot harder to have planned something for weeks, as some of the poster's scenarios would indicate, and then block that out.

[Politigal]

Things that make you go hmmmmm

Patty Fornicola has *declined* to be interviewed for any upcoming 3 yr anniversary reports on Ray Gricar.

[Laws]

Not in the least bit surprised, predictable behavior for her type, imho.

[gstickley]

Originally posted by Politigal
Things that make you go hmmmmm

Patty Fornicola has *declined* to be interviewed for any upcoming 3 yr anniversary reports on Ray Gricar. [/*]

What a 'soulmate'!!! A case of 'out of sight, out of mind' maybe?? What happened to the 'wait as long as it takes'?

Ohmygawd, how I hope RG really did walk away (& who could blame him if he did??); I hope he has found a compassionate, loving family!!!! I hope there are many people in in the area who don't get much sleep in the next couple days; of course, why would anyone think they had consciences to keep them from sleeping???

JMO

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
Things that make you go hmmmmm Patty Fornicola has *declined* to be interviewed for any upcoming 3 yr anniversary reports on Ray Gricar. No phone, no pool, no pets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZFDDUiM36c

[J. J. in Phila]

In all fairness, that "as long as it takes" comment was three years ago. LG declines to talk to the press, as has JKA; the latter is bit strange, because she comments publicly on the case.

[Cinderella]

I was on the Patty wagon too, but I fell off.

hammer barf

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Laws
Not in the least bit surprised, predictable behavior for her type, imho. [/*]

What exactly is "her type"? Have you ever met her or are you just passing an unknown judgement?

[day2day]

Originally posted by gstickley


What a 'soulmate'!!! A case of 'out of sight, out of mind' maybe?? What happened to the 'wait as long as it takes'?

Ohmygawd, how I hope RG really did walk away (& who could blame him if he did??); I hope he has found a compassionate, loving family!!!! I hope there are many people in in the area who don't get much sleep in the next couple days; of course, why would anyone think they had consciences to keep them from sleeping???

JMO [/*]


I am speechless here. (and you guys KNOW that doesnt happen often) She "refuses" to be interviewed!?! Priceless!! What happened to the "crocodile tears"...?! Soulmates....

I agree GS...I hope that Mr. Gricar walked away and is spending his life with someone who REALLY loves him and cares about him. IMO PF never did...

And i doubt any of them are missing any sleep...

Just my opinion yanno...

[sherrijean981]

How can you say all this stuff? You have no idea what PF went through? You just want her to come forward so you can make fun of her again or judge her for how she presents herself and what she says.

I am glad she doesn't come out and say anymore! She doesn't deserve to be ridiculed by the likes of anyone on a forum who goes under a made up name. Easy to sit states away and act like God! Casting judgements.

You have no idea what she has gone through! No compassion on this forum for the family or PF. It's all their fault nothing is done, RG is missing, he hasn't been found and they don't drop everything to show their faces in Centre County so those on here can judge again. Nothing they do will ever be enough will it?

Some on here profuse to be so Christian but God would turn you away at the gate for the mean, unkind things you say.
:flamemad:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
How can you say all this stuff? You have no idea what PF went through? You just want her to come forward so you can make fun of her again or judge her for how she presents herself and what she says.



I agree, but I think a number of posters miss a fact in this case. PEF is an employee of the DA's Office (and probably needs that income).

It also isn't unusual that those close may not want to talk about to the press. Click the link on the Aardsma case. The reporter contacted Aardsma's mother in 1989; the mother asked her not to run the story and declined to talk. Mrs. Aardsma obviously wasn't involved in the murder; it clearly was a murder. Betsy Aardsma was described in glowing terms in all reporting that I've read.

It can be painful for some people. When my father died, I was able to speak for 15 minutes at his memorial service, but I was unable to orally ask our family doctor medical question about his last, and brief, hospitalization (I had written them).

[day2day]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
How can you say all this stuff? You have no idea what PF went through? You just want her to come forward so you can make fun of her again or judge her for how she presents herself and what she says.

I am glad she doesn't come out and say anymore! She doesn't deserve to be ridiculed by the likes of anyone on a forum who goes under a made up name. Easy to sit states away and act like God! Casting judgements.

You have no idea what she has gone through! No compassion on this forum for the family or PF. It's all their fault nothing is done, RG is missing, he hasn't been found and they don't drop everything to show their faces in Centre County so those on here can judge again. Nothing they do will ever be enough will it?

Some on here profuse to be so Christian but God would turn you away at the gate for the mean, unkind things you say.
:flamemad: [/*]


Oh please...Noone is acting like "God" here!! ...

Some on here profuse to be so Christian but God would turn you away at the gate for the mean, unkind things you say.

Now who is judging? ...

If you don't expect PF to speak up for her missing soulmate..who do you think should speak up?

As for Mr. Gricar's family-i have sung the praises of TG.....he has done his share..imo its NOT too much to ask PF to speak up..or is it?

jmo

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day



Oh please...Noone is acting like "God" here!! ...



Now who is judging? ...

If you don't expect PF to speak up for her missing soulmate..who do you think should speak up?

As for Mr. Gricar's family-i have sung the praises of TG.....he has done his share..imo its NOT too much to ask PF to speak up..or is it?

jmo [/*]

This is your statement:
Originally posted by day2day



I am speechless here. (and you guys KNOW that doesnt happen often) She "refuses" to be interviewed!?! Priceless!! What happened to the "crocodile tears"...?! Soulmates....

I agree GS...I hope that Mr. Gricar walked away and ((((((is spending his life with someone who REALLY loves him and cares about him. IMO PF never did...)))))))

And(((((((( i doubt any of them are missing any sleep...))))))))

Just my opinion yanno... [/*]

You don't know that she never loved him or cared about him!!!

And a cruel thing to say about htem not missing any sleep over it!

By the way, how much sleep would you miss over the loss of a loved one?

PF has spoken for her loved one and everyone says she cries crocodile tears, doesn't love him, caused his disappearance, etc, etc, etc. You are big on the list of things she has not done. I am not judging I am stating a fact of what is written on this forum by you and LW and Ciinderella can get hateful in their statements. Not a judgement on my part but the truth!!

Centre County should speak up for RG. He was her love but he was the DA of Centre County. What he was when he disappeared!! On their watch!

[Politigal]

I'm not being hateful, and I'm not talking about crocodile tears.

I'm looking at things with a common sense approach IMO.

Patty Fornicola was the closest person to Ray Gricar. They were living together the same as a husband & wife.

IMO, she should be the *first* person to want to stand up for him.

Instead, it appears she's more agreeable to sweeping him under the rug.

[gstickley]

Originally posted by day2day



Oh please...Noone is acting like "God" here!! ...



Now who is judging? ...

If you don't expect PF to speak up for her missing soulmate..who do you think should speak up?

As for Mr. Gricar's family-i have sung the praises of TG.....he has done his share..imo its NOT too much to ask PF to speak up..or is it?

jmo [/*]

Hey, Day. Remember . . . it is NOT okay to even mention PF on this forum, much less question any of her actions . . . or inactions.

However, you MAY speculate as to RG being gay; having a porn buddy; being a blackmailer; squirrelling money away for his big walk-away; falsifying documents, as with DMV records; being obsessed with disappearances; being pro-death penalty; being dazed & walking around distraught for weeks; planning his own elaborate disappearance; having only 2 best friends . . . hey, Day, just post whatever you want about RG, but . . . under no circumstances . . . say anything about 'the tearful soulmate'.

[day2day]

Originally posted by gstickley


Hey, Day. Remember . . . it is NOT okay to even mention PF on this forum, much less question any of her actions . . . or inactions.

However, you MAY speculate as to RG being gay; having a porn buddy; being a blackmailer; squirrelling money away for his big walk-away; falsifying documents, as with DMV records; being obsessed with disappearances; being pro-death penalty; being dazed & walking around distraught for weeks; planning his own elaborate disappearance; having only 2 best friends . . . hey, Day, just post whatever you want about RG, but . . . under no circumstances . . . say anything about 'the tearful soulmate'. [/*]


GS...
Sorry been gone for a few days...i FORGOT the rules here ..!!hammer
And you are right as usual...we can accuse Mr. Gricar of MANY things ..but don't ever question PF, LE or PB. That crosses the line!

[gstickley]

Originally posted by Politigal
I'm not being hateful, and I'm not talking about crocodile tears.

I'm looking at things with a common sense approach IMO.

Patty Fornicola was the closest person to Ray Gricar. They were living together the same as a husband & wife.

IMO, she should be the *first* person to want to stand up for him.

Instead, it appears she's more agreeable to sweeping him under the rug. [/*]

Exactly, Pgal.

Relatives live out of state. Fornicola is local, from a prominent family, works in courthouse, would be familiar with RG's friends, co-workers, neighbors, etc. The "tearful soulmate', IMO, would have much more impact in the area than the out-of-state relatives.

She was sure present during the first couple months, attending LE meetings even. Then she showed up at the 1-yr. anniversary when the MW was publicized. Don't remember much afterwards.

A candlelight vigil, a press release, even a solitary balloon released in honor of Mr. Gricar is too much to ask of the 'tearful soulmate'?

[gstickley]

Originally posted by day2day



GS...
Sorry been gone for a few days...i FORGOT the rules here ..!!hammer
And you are right as usual...we can accuse Mr. Gricar of MANY things ..but don't ever question PF, LE or PB. That crosses the line! [/*]

It's okay, Little Day, it's okay. You'll get back into the "groove" before too long. And I'll be here to remind you of what is allowed & what is not! :punch:

[day2day]

Bottom line...Those closest to the missing refusing to speak out - speaks volumes.
:shrug:

jmo

As always there is an excuse for everything..

[sherrijean981]

The point is, PF can do no more than anyone else, especially on this forum. She tried for months and was not able to do anything. TG and his brother were in Centre County and they were not able to do anything, and they are family!

Shortly after RG's disappearance a new DA took over RG's office. PF now has to work for him, and can only make so much noise without getting herself fired for causing disruption in the offices. She is one person, whether she was his "soul mate" or not, and if DA Madeira says no one else is being called in, just what do you expect her or TG and his family to do? Storm the doors of the courthouse and hold MM hostage until AG Tom Corbett gets a Grand Jury or the Army/Navy in there?

So what if I do stick up for her on this forum? I am probably one of 2 or 3, and she deserves someone standing with her the same as anyone else.

As to all the remarks made about RG, he is the one who is missing. All remarks are speculative and given in a scenerio of "what could have" happened. Not what did! Not that he did do anything or is out there, or under there, but just speculations.
No one knows what happened, well, someone does, but that person/s has not come forward.

[gstickley]

I, for one, have never expected PF to become a part of this forum. She could have, but she didn't, so what?

I do feel, & have always felt, that PF could have done more to keep RG's memory alive in central PA. Now, maybe a candlelight vigil is a no-no in some places. However, I can't imagine how her job would have been in jeopardy for asking RG's friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, to have a public vigil for him. Even if the courthouse steps would have been considered 'crude' or whatever, there is the nearby park. And, since PB apparently was such a 'pal' in the early days, what would have been wrong in asking him to stop by, maybe get a little publicity??? All it would have taken was a few telephone calls . . . very little effort!!! IMO, that would have had much more impact than anyone on this forum trying to 'awaken' local residents, and, yes, I do believe PF could have done a lot more than anyone else, including relatives! After all, she was the local 'voice' as long as BPD was supposedly having meetings & conducting their 'investigation'

JMO

[kelloggirl]

Hmmm...on one hand, I think it's understandable that she might not want to be interviewed. Regardless of how PF felt about him, how deeply she loved him, she may, after 3 years, want to move on with her life, and has accepted that he's never coming back, either because he walked away or because he's no longer alive. I really don't know because I haven't experienced it myself, but if someone's spouse dies, doesn't there come a point in time where you have to close that chapter in your life, and move on, find someone else, and keep living? Maybe for her that means not speaking about it again.

On the other hand, if she did ever care for him at all, her speaking out shows those who have the resources or interest to pursue this case that Ray is still missed and that those closest to him at least, are not giving up the fight. It seems that her refusal to be interviewed could be interpreted as "If those closest to him don't care, why should anyone else?"

However, I have fortunate enough to never having experienced anything near to this type of event, so have no idea how an individual should react or feel in a situation as difficult as this. Still, it definitely raises eyebrows.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
However, I can't imagine how her job would have been in jeopardy for asking RG's friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, to have a public vigil for him.


I can, as soon as some asks "what should be done."


And, since PB apparently was such a 'pal' in the early days, what would have been wrong in asking him to stop by, maybe get a little publicity???


I would classify PB as being a "pal."

[day2day]

Originally posted by gstickley


It's okay, Little Day, it's okay. You'll get back into the "groove" before too long. And I'll be here to remind you of what is allowed & what is not! :punch: [/*]

I can always depend on you to keep me in line! Thanks!:D

[gstickley]

Originally posted by day2day


I can always depend on you to keep me in line! Thanks!:D [/*]

Thanks for the thoughts. :lol:

[day2day]

Originally posted by gstickley


Thanks for the thoughts. :lol: [/*]

Anytime...:)

Maybe we will get a surprise tomorrow ...

[Politigal]

Originally posted by kelloggirl
Hmmm...on one hand, I think it's understandable that she might not want to be interviewed. Regardless of how PF felt about him, how deeply she loved him, she may, after 3 years, want to move on with her life, and has accepted that he's never coming back, either because he walked away or because he's no longer alive. I really don't know because I haven't experienced it myself, but if someone's spouse dies, doesn't there come a point in time where you have to close that chapter in your life, and move on, find someone else, and keep living? Maybe for her that means not speaking about it again.

On the other hand, if she did ever care for him at all, her speaking out shows those who have the resources or interest to pursue this case that Ray is still missed and that those closest to him at least, are not giving up the fight. It seems that her refusal to be interviewed could be interpreted as "If those closest to him don't care, why should anyone else?"

However, I have fortunate enough to never having experienced anything near to this type of event, so have no idea how an individual should react or feel in a situation as difficult as this. Still, it definitely raises eyebrows. [/*]

You've expressed it eloquently.

[Cloudbuster]

I would like to know what Lara and PF both know? They both are remaining silent even for the 3rd year anniversary.:confused:
They both spoke to him--Lara on 4-14-2005 and PF on 4-15-2005. Come on what do they really know? The no vigil and silence are saying something here IMO. Did they have attorneys from the start that directed them to stay silent? If so why? It's a reasonable question as I sit here wondering out of frustration.
Just a old opinion.

[Cinderella]

I second that remark made by Cloudbuster.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I would like to know what Lara and PF both know? They both are remaining silent even for the 3rd year anniversary.:confused:
They both spoke to him--Lara on 4-14-2005 and PF on 4-15-2005. Come on what do they really know? The no vigil and silence are saying something here IMO. Did they have attorneys from the start that directed them to stay silent? If so why? It's a reasonable question as I sit here wondering out of frustration.
Just a old opinion. [/*]They were silent for the 3rd "anniversary"? Interesting criticism ahead of today. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he disappeared on the 15th so it stands to reason that the media has no interest in covering it until today. I did several interviews, and follow-ups, leading up to, and including, today. I spent quite a few hours on the phone, but you read approximately a 2% distillation.

No attorney has played any part in this, beyond financial/personal affairs.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
They were silent for the 3rd "anniversary"? Interesting criticism ahead of today. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he disappeared on the 15th so it stands to reason that the media has no interest in covering it until today. I did several interviews, and follow-ups, leading up to, and including, today. I spent quite a few hours on the phone, but you read approximately a 2% distillation.

No attorney has played any part in this, beyond financial/personal affairs. [/*]

Tony, I thought the coverage was very good and a few of the last ones posted on here were excellent.

I hope Det. Rickard keeps digging, you never know what might show up when you least expect it. I am praying for that.

The words of LG were very heart felt and I appreciated her point of view. Thank you both. :rose:

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
They were silent for the 3rd "anniversary"? Interesting criticism ahead of today. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he disappeared on the 15th so it stands to reason that the media has no interest in covering it until today. I did several interviews, and follow-ups, leading up to, and including, today. I spent quite a few hours on the phone, but you read approximately a 2% distillation.

No attorney has played any part in this, beyond financial/personal affairs. [/*]

Tony I posted that before any articles came out. PF didn't comment in some articles. On Lara Im wrong. I know you had to have spent alot of time with doing all the interviews. I didn't say you because you have spent much time and trips and interviews throughout this whole duration. I know Ray would be most proud of how you gave so much of yourself in so may ways! I guess I was just so frustrated and was going through another sleepless night. I get the feeling you can relate to that. This whole anniversary thing has me upset and I know it must be 100's of times harder on you!!! No pun is intended.:rose:

[sherrijean981]

Just a word of warning when doing any searches on Gricar. I found a link that said "Patty Fornicola Searching In ........" I tried to open it, but it brought up a screen that had to be downloaded. I said cancel, it would not let me. It kept taking me back and forth on screens. I finally was able to cancel but I was then confronted with a PORN page, and I do mean PORN!! I was so pi$$ed! I deleted the page, my history for the day but I know it is somewhere on my computer just lurking for some unsuspecting child to find.

I am just glad I am having everything removed from my computer today and restarting. Although I know it will be on my hard drive somewhere still.

Even a legitimate search now is unsafe. Beware everyone! Guess that could make you leave!:flamemad:

[gstickley]

Aaahhhhh, people. I think I've figured it out . . . PF is "Porn Buddy"!!!

Who better to have the motive & opportunity to throw the laptop & hard drive into the river??? Lives in the vicinity; wouldn't appear suspicious in the area; knew where the laptop was kept.

Yep . . . PF is "Porn Buddy" . . .

JMO ;)

[J. J. in Phila]

Aaahhhhh, people. I think I've figured it out . . . PF is "Porn Buddy"!!!

Who better to have the motive & opportunity to throw the laptop & hard drive into the river??? Lives in the vicinity; wouldn't appear suspicious in the area; knew where the laptop was kept.

Yep . . . PF is "Porn Buddy" . . .

JMO ;)

Great theory, until you look at the polygraph results. Then it falls apart. (And don't think the thought didn't cross my mind.)

[gstickley]

If polygraphs were infallible, they'd be used in court . . . but, they aren't! :no:

[puzzled]

Can anyone tell me why Tony is no longer on the board? Also can anyone tell me why law enforcement has forsaken Ray?
I finally made it onto the new board!
I hope that Firefly and Tokuen can give us more info. I don't think I can ever give up on this case! I wish I could do more...or do something. I hope that Tokuen will read Fireflys posts and see if anything seems to click.:)

[Cloudbuster]

If polygraphs were infallible, they'd be used in court . . . but, they aren't! :no:

Gstickley here is some good information about polygraphs I came accross the other day.

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/4-4-2006-92659.asp
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/aug/28-the-science-of-sniffing-out-liars/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=

[Cloudbuster]

This is the beginning of the first article on the first link above.

Should You Take A Lie Detector Test?
Do you think the lie detector test works? Think you should take it if you are innocent? You might be surprised by what you don't know.

Enlarge ImageThe FBI gives agent applicants a lie detector test before hiring them. After 9/11, their polygraph failure rate went to 50%. Did liars suddenly start applying for jobs? No, but the testers were instructed to read the tests differently, even though this meant throwing out some honest people with the few dishonest ones. Imagine what this would do to your future. For all of their lives these mostly innocent people will have a record of a failed FBI polygraph following them.

Most scientists now agree that polygraph "testing" is junk science. In fact, John Larson, one of the pioneers of polygraphic lie detection, says "I'm sorry I ever had any part in it's development." The test is valued by governments and others because it is useful for getting damaging admissions from people, especially those who don't know that the test is a sham.


What I made out of this is a person takes a poly as a way of admitting guilt in some way and not because they tested okay. What to make of it is up to the reader. Im not implying anything just a opinion on what I read.

[gstickley]

Cloudbuster, I have personal knowledge of guilty persons passing the polygraph test; also have personal knowledge of truly innocent persons failing the polygraph test.

[J. J. in Phila]

It is exceptionally unlikely that PEF would have passed the polygraph. There are much more likely solutions.

[Politigal]

It is exceptionally unlikely that PEF would have passed the polygraph. There are much more likely solutions.

In your opinion....

[J. J. in Phila]

In your opinion....


No, as matter of statistical probability, hence the term exceptionally unlikely .

[Serendipitous1]

Playing the devil’s advocate here, regarding reported events from the last confirmed sighting (nothing new...just old stuff restated, 3½ years out):

The last confirmed sighting of RG was video of him leaving the courthouse Thursday evening. There has been no published information confirming RG’s whereabouts after that.

On Friday, according to PF, RG was supposedly wearing the same clothing or clothing similar to what he was viewed as having worn on Thursday evening. Someone called the courthouse late Friday morning using RG’s phone...PF said it was RG. Brush Valley was confirmed to have been the location from which that call was placed, consistent with the caller being on Route 192, as reported by PF.

There are various sightings of a man fitting RG’s description and/or a car fitting the description of RG’s Mini Cooper, in the Lewisburg area on Friday afternoon/evening and even on Saturday. RG’s Mini Cooper was found on Saturday evening in the SoS parking lot, in a place familiar to PF, and removed to the PSP barracks. When opened there was a smell of smoke and a trace of ash found. We are told RG did not smoke, except perhaps for a ‘celebratory’ cigar, and that RG would not allow anyone else to smoke in his car. The car did not appear to have been ‘wiped down’, but there were few fingerprints found on or in the car, and none inside the car which could be positively identified as being RG’s.

A tracking dog was brought to the parking lot on Sunday. Whatever scent the dog was ‘asked’ to follow, the handler interpreted the dog’s reaction as possibly indicating the person had gotten into another vehicle. Whatever scent the dog was ‘asked’ to sniff for was not picked up elsewhere...in the park, the SoS, along the river, etc.

On Sunday or Monday, it was discovered that RG’s county issued laptop computer was missing from the house he shared with PF. Despite a diligent search, that computer was not found, until it was noticed in the river by fishermen, 3½ months later, without its hard drive. And despite another diligent search, its hard drive was not found until a hard drive, compatible with RG’s laptop, was found 2 months later, by a woman and child. That hard drive has not yielded any clues.

The hypothesis - RG ‘disappeared’ (was perhaps murdered) Thursday night, while wearing the clothes he then had on. PF knows what happened to him but has (for whatever reason) colluded in a coverup. The Mini Cooper was driven to Lewisburg by someone else...someone who resembled RG, dressed in the appropriate clothing...making the call on the way. That man avoided all video surveillance cameras (if there were any), but purposely got himself noticed, especially in the SoS area where he left the car and got into another vehicle. That man’s scent source was deliberately substituted for RG’s. The laptop, and later a hard drive, were deposited sometime later, to keep LE’s focus on the river.

The problem - PF was extensively questioned by LE (particularly by the PSP) and eventually given a rigorous polygraph test by an independent agency. She supposedly has not given LE (at any level) any reason to suspect that she has any knowledge of RG’s disappearance. As ‘billywahoo’ pointed out on 6/17/05, before her polygraph test and not necessarily just pertaining to PF, but in response to the more general question, ‘what more can be investigated if this was foul play’ in light of the purported list of unnamed potential suspects announced by DZ: “the problem[s] are those two little things known as ‘probable cause’ and ‘individual rights’. this leans towards the poly issue. if PF took one and didn’t do well or did not pass, so far it looks like it would come down to admitting something as there is no physical evidence...”. But PF did take one and supposedly passed, ‘with flying colors’...so it is that much harder to support this theory.

Epilogue - Publicly, everyone close to this case (including PB) has stated that PF is not suspected of having any knowledge about RG’s disappearance. But that common, public assertion can be viewed in diametrically opposed ways. And from ‘Laws100' to ‘Politigal’, this theory has survived. It is, perhaps, the number one foul play theory. But it, like all foul play theories, lacks hard evidence.

So here is the point (at long last). If this theory has, even remotely, any merit whatsoever, it is (and was) a prime reason why the investigation should never have been left to the locals. And if anyone thinks I pontificate too much, this should suffice to assure you I have not.

[Cloudbuster]

S1 I wish we knew who the list of potentials was.:flamemad:

[Politigal]

Playing the devil’s advocate here, regarding reported events from the last confirmed sighting (nothing new...just old stuff restated, 3½ years out):

The last confirmed sighting of RG was video of him leaving the courthouse Thursday evening. There has been no published information confirming RG’s whereabouts after that.

On Friday, according to PF, RG was supposedly wearing the same clothing or clothing similar to what he was viewed as having worn on Thursday evening. Someone called the courthouse late Friday morning using RG’s phone...PF said it was RG. Brush Valley was confirmed to have been the location from which that call was placed, consistent with the caller being on Route 192, as reported by PF.

There are various sightings of a man fitting RG’s description and/or a car fitting the description of RG’s Mini Cooper, in the Lewisburg area on Friday afternoon/evening and even on Saturday. RG’s Mini Cooper was found on Saturday evening in the SoS parking lot, in a place familiar to PF, and removed to the PSP barracks. When opened there was a smell of smoke and a trace of ash found. We are told RG did not smoke, except perhaps for a ‘celebratory’ cigar, and that RG would not allow anyone else to smoke in his car. The car did not appear to have been ‘wiped down’, but there were few fingerprints found on or in the car, and none inside the car which could be positively identified as being RG’s.

A tracking dog was brought to the parking lot on Sunday. Whatever scent the dog was ‘asked’ to follow, the handler interpreted the dog’s reaction as possibly indicating the person had gotten into another vehicle. Whatever scent the dog was ‘asked’ to sniff for was not picked up elsewhere...in the park, the SoS, along the river, etc.

On Sunday or Monday, it was discovered that RG’s county issued laptop computer was missing from the house he shared with PF. Despite a diligent search, that computer was not found, until it was noticed in the river by fishermen, 3½ months later, without its hard drive. And despite another diligent search, its hard drive was not found until a hard drive, compatible with RG’s laptop, was found 2 months later, by a woman and child. That hard drive has not yielded any clues.

The hypothesis - RG ‘disappeared’ (was perhaps murdered) Thursday night, while wearing the clothes he then had on. PF knows what happened to him but has (for whatever reason) colluded in a coverup. The Mini Cooper was driven to Lewisburg by someone else...someone who resembled RG, dressed in the appropriate clothing...making the call on the way. That man avoided all video surveillance cameras (if there were any), but purposely got himself noticed, especially in the SoS area where he left the car and got into another vehicle. That man’s scent source was deliberately substituted for RG’s. The laptop, and later a hard drive, were deposited sometime later, to keep LE’s focus on the river.

The problem - PF was extensively questioned by LE (particularly by the PSP) and eventually given a rigorous polygraph test by an independent agency. She supposedly has not given LE (at any level) any reason to suspect that she has any knowledge of RG’s disappearance. As ‘billywahoo’ pointed out on 6/17/05, before her polygraph test and not necessarily just pertaining to PF, but in response to the more general question, ‘what more can be investigated if this was foul play’ in light of the purported list of unnamed potential suspects announced by DZ: “the problem[s] are those two little things known as ‘probable cause’ and ‘individual rights’. this leans towards the poly issue. if PF took one and didn’t do well or did not pass, so far it looks like it would come down to admitting something as there is no physical evidence...”. But PF did take one and supposedly passed, ‘with flying colors’...so it is that much harder to support this theory.

Epilogue - Publicly, everyone close to this case (including PB) has stated that PF is not suspected of having any knowledge about RG’s disappearance. But that common, public assertion can be viewed in diametrically opposed ways. And from ‘Laws100' to ‘Politigal’, this theory has survived. It is, perhaps, the number one foul play theory. But it, like all foul play theories, lacks hard evidence.

So here is the point (at long last). If this theory has, even remotely, any merit whatsoever, it is (and was) a prime reason why the investigation should never have been left to the locals. And if anyone thinks I pontificate too much, this should suffice to assure you I have not.

That lack of hard evidence might not have been so lacking had they actually investigated it as a crime from the start.

[Politigal]

When I first came to this board, I initially thought Gricar had "run away" from his life....but after reading more, that just didn't jibe with the type of person he was described as being.

And if some of the circumstances *had* been different, I wouldn't suspect Patty at all.

Some of those include --

*If* Gricar had told someone else he was going to take off work that Friday (like he usually did in advance)
*If* Gricar hadn't vanished in supposedly the same clothing he was wearing the day before
*If* Gricar hadn't made that weird phone call (which I don't believe he did) at 11:30am that day to tell Patty he wouldn't be home at lunch to let the dog out...??? which still makes no sense IMO, and *if* she wasn't the only person answering the phone at work in that particular time frame

*If* Gricar - during that phone call - had asked if any co workers were looking for him or if he had any messages from anyone at the office
*If* Patty hadn't gone to the gym, and reportedly assumed that he was late coming home because he had stopped for a bite to eat (when they always had dinner out together at the restaurant on Friday nights in the past)
*If* Patty had phoned anyone else besides her brother that night when he hadn't come home - like his best friend - his daughter - or another co worker, just to see if they had spoken to Gricar
*If* after having spoken to Patty, the profiler hadn't immediately come to the conclusion that Gricar committed suicide
*If* in the first press conference that Patty hadn't said "we will wait for as long as we need to" and if Zaccagni hadn't said "she'll find out why he's doing this to her when he comes home"
*If* Bellefonte police had actually done a forensic investigation at the home
*If* Gricar's car had not been found in a spot that was familiar to both he and Patty (from previous trips there)
*If* Patty wasn't the person who retrieved the scent article from the home to use with the dogs
*If* Patty hadn't been allowed to try & retrieve the laptop on her own, and *if* that laptop case had been fingerprinted
*If* the laptop had disappeared from somewhere other than Patty's upstairs closet in her home
*If* Bellefonte police hadn't waited 3 months to polygraph her, and *if* they had polygraphed others close to both her & Gricar
*If* Patty hadn't said on TV that when she got home from work that she expected a note from Gricar (even though he supposedly had called her to tell her he would not be home)
*If* Patty wasn't the only person in the world who claimed to have spoken to Gricar that Friday
*If* Gricar wasn't the wonderful father he was reported to have been
*If* Gricar wasn't looking forward to retirement as it was reported he was
*If* Patty - the closest person to Gricar in Bellefonte - had made some effort to publicly call for his case to be solved over the past 3 years
*If* Patty hadn't shunned the local newspaper - which followed the case every step of the way -- for an interview on the anniversary date of his disappearance
*If* Patty wasn't the only one who reported being aware of some hard drive erasing software


there's probably lots more, but I'm tired & don't feel like digging thru it all.

But *if* any of those things had happened differently, she wouldn't be the #1 suspect in my mind.

IMO

edited to add --
And I still believe with all my heart, that the disappearance of John Glasgow of Little Rock, AR - almost with the same circumstances - is a copy cat of Gricar's case...

[gstickley]

Playing the devil’s advocate here, regarding reported events from the last confirmed sighting (nothing new...just old stuff restated, 3½ years out):

The last confirmed sighting of RG was video of him leaving the courthouse Thursday evening. There has been no published information confirming RG’s whereabouts after that.

On Friday, according to PF, RG was supposedly wearing the same clothing or clothing similar to what he was viewed as having worn on Thursday evening. Someone called the courthouse late Friday morning using RG’s phone...PF said it was RG. Brush Valley was confirmed to have been the location from which that call was placed, consistent with the caller being on Route 192, as reported by PF.

There are various sightings of a man fitting RG’s description and/or a car fitting the description of RG’s Mini Cooper, in the Lewisburg area on Friday afternoon/evening and even on Saturday. RG’s Mini Cooper was found on Saturday evening in the SoS parking lot, in a place familiar to PF, and removed to the PSP barracks. When opened there was a smell of smoke and a trace of ash found. We are told RG did not smoke, except perhaps for a ‘celebratory’ cigar, and that RG would not allow anyone else to smoke in his car. The car did not appear to have been ‘wiped down’, but there were few fingerprints found on or in the car, and none inside the car which could be positively identified as being RG’s.

A tracking dog was brought to the parking lot on Sunday. Whatever scent the dog was ‘asked’ to follow, the handler interpreted the dog’s reaction as possibly indicating the person had gotten into another vehicle. Whatever scent the dog was ‘asked’ to sniff for was not picked up elsewhere...in the park, the SoS, along the river, etc.

On Sunday or Monday, it was discovered that RG’s county issued laptop computer was missing from the house he shared with PF. Despite a diligent search, that computer was not found, until it was noticed in the river by fishermen, 3½ months later, without its hard drive. And despite another diligent search, its hard drive was not found until a hard drive, compatible with RG’s laptop, was found 2 months later, by a woman and child. That hard drive has not yielded any clues.

The hypothesis - RG ‘disappeared’ (was perhaps murdered) Thursday night, while wearing the clothes he then had on. PF knows what happened to him but has (for whatever reason) colluded in a coverup. The Mini Cooper was driven to Lewisburg by someone else...someone who resembled RG, dressed in the appropriate clothing...making the call on the way. That man avoided all video surveillance cameras (if there were any), but purposely got himself noticed, especially in the SoS area where he left the car and got into another vehicle. That man’s scent source was deliberately substituted for RG’s. The laptop, and later a hard drive, were deposited sometime later, to keep LE’s focus on the river.

The problem - PF was extensively questioned by LE (particularly by the PSP) and eventually given a rigorous polygraph test by an independent agency. She supposedly has not given LE (at any level) any reason to suspect that she has any knowledge of RG’s disappearance. As ‘billywahoo’ pointed out on 6/17/05, before her polygraph test and not necessarily just pertaining to PF, but in response to the more general question, ‘what more can be investigated if this was foul play’ in light of the purported list of unnamed potential suspects announced by DZ: “the problem[s] are those two little things known as ‘probable cause’ and ‘individual rights’. this leans towards the poly issue. if PF took one and didn’t do well or did not pass, so far it looks like it would come down to admitting something as there is no physical evidence...”. But PF did take one and supposedly passed, ‘with flying colors’...so it is that much harder to support this theory.

Epilogue - Publicly, everyone close to this case (including PB) has stated that PF is not suspected of having any knowledge about RG’s disappearance. But that common, public assertion can be viewed in diametrically opposed ways. And from ‘Laws100' to ‘Politigal’, this theory has survived. It is, perhaps, the number one foul play theory. But it, like all foul play theories, lacks hard evidence.

So here is the point (at long last). If this theory has, even remotely, any merit whatsoever, it is (and was) a prime reason why the investigation should never have been left to the locals. And if anyone thinks I pontificate too much, this should suffice to assure you I have not.

Ya dun good, ya pontificator you! You sure hit the nail on the head with this post!!!

[gstickley]

That lack of hard evidence might not have been so lacking had they actually investigated it as a crime from the start.

Ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto!!!!

[Serendipitous1]

S1 I wish we knew who the list of potentials was.:flamemad:The short list of suspects who may have had motive to hurt RG, most of whom were persons he had prosecuted...in the shadow of, if it turns out to be foul play, maybe we will take PF up on her offer to take a polygraph test? Wouldn't that be something? Who knows if such a list ever existed? And if it did, who knows if and why the names have all since been crossed off...by the vaunted BPD?

No one has succeeded in putting this theory down...before or after the 'paramour parable'. And if anyone thinks PB will entertain this theory, you have only to read his blog. So much for being open minded.

This theory has been beaten into the ground. Sometimes though...when one door closes, another one opens. There is hope that this mystery will be solved. It just is not likely to happen on the WWW though...sorry to say.

[Serendipitous1]

That lack of hard evidence might not have been so lacking had they actually investigated it as a crime from the start.Absolutely correct. And that shortcoming...not investigating the Gricar case as if a crime occurred...was specifically mentioned by LE months later in the disappearance of Elaine Pierson...whose tragic murder was rather quickly resolved.

[Serendipitous1]

<Snip>
We have a 'soulmate', someone who supposedly knows him inside and out, to the very depth of his 'soul'. Someone who knows his loves, knows his hates, knows his likes, knows his dislikes, knows everything about him.....everything...... loves him completely just as he loves her, the perfect relationship, we are told.

AND YET when confronted with her car being found, abandoned in a parking lot, the first thing she thinks of is 'Give me the daxx car back NOW!! NO, LE!!! It can't stay in the lot. Process it now and give it back to me.....HE ISN'T coming back for it!!"

HOW did she know that he wasn't coming back to the car?
IMO, the answer to that question, will answer all of the other questions. She knew on Saturday night he wasn't coming back........HOW did she know?
JMOAt first I thought you were posting on the wrong thread. I remember what appeared to be unfounded aspersions regarding PF and the return of the car. But I do not recall any official confirmation. PF's mindset is important. Is there any way you can document this allegation?

[Politigal]

At first I thought you were posting on the wrong thread. I remember what appeared to be unfounded aspersions regarding PF and the return of the car. But I do not recall any official confirmation. PF's mindset is important. Is there any way you can document this allegation?

IIRC, even though PB alluded to the possibility of PF wanting the car back quickly, I think Tony quickly shot that down and said basically....they were just thru testing it. Granted though, law enforcement should have kept it longer for more extensive testing, IMO.

[Serendipitous1]

The car was removed from the lot. WHO other than LE, who I am of the understanding did NOT want the car removed, could have called for such a move? Doesn't that leave ONE person and ONLY ONE who could have called for such a move, the OWNER of the car, and isn't that move said to be in opposition of what LE wanted?

Surely the family couldn't, considering they didn't own the car, and why would the family want it moved?
Mindset----IF that car was the car my 'soulmate' drove to that location, it would STILL be sitting there if I was the one sitting back saying 'I am not giving up', (exact words, by the way. Interpret them as you will.)
JMONow wait a minute...there is no published information to the affect that LE wanted to return the car to the lot, or that PF demanded the return of the car to her. So where are these allegations coming from?

[Serendipitous1]

'Here's your sign'....maybe. When is the last time any of RG's relatives 'snuggled' up to PF? I actually am really serious in asking this...not that any of us 'net heads' would know.

[J. J. in Phila]

When I first came to this board, I initially thought Gricar had "run away" from his life....but after reading more, that just didn't jibe with the type of person he was described as being.

And if some of the circumstances *had* been different, I wouldn't suspect Patty at all.

Some of those include --

*If* Gricar had told someone else he was going to take off work that Friday (like he usually did in advance)


Like he did not the day before, or the time he went to the Cleveland game.


*If* Gricar hadn't vanished in supposedly the same clothing he was wearing the day before


Same outerwear and jeans.


*If* Gricar hadn't made that weird phone call (which I don't believe he did) at 11:30am that day to tell Patty he wouldn't be home at lunch to let the dog out...??? which still makes no sense IMO, and *if* she wasn't the only person answering the phone at work in that particular time frame


**I won't be home, take the dog for a walk** Please explain how this is weird.


*If* Gricar - during that phone call - had asked if any co workers were looking for him or if he had any messages from anyone at the office


On his day off from a phone that has voice mail?


*If* Patty hadn't gone to the gym, and reportedly assumed that he was late coming home because he had stopped for a bite to eat (when they always had dinner out together at the restaurant on Friday nights in the past)


Gee, she goes home, he isn't there so she decides to to the gym. How is this strange?


*If* Patty had phoned anyone else besides her brother that night when he hadn't come home - like his best friend - his daughter - or another co worker, just to see if they had spoken to Gricar


His daughter lives 3000 miles away and she was just with his coworkers. I'm not etirely sure she didn't call Sloan, but she did repeatedly call his cell.


*If* after having spoken to Patty, the profiler hadn't immediately come to the conclusion that Gricar committed suicide


And Sloan and his other coworkers and friends. And who initially thought it was suicide, TG and CG (which is understandable).


*If* in the first press conference that Patty hadn't said "we will wait for as long as we need to" and if Zaccagni hadn't said "she'll find out why he's doing this to her when he comes home"


As did LG, and now we find out that some of his friend think he walked away.


*If* Bellefonte police had actually done a forensic investigation at the home


Ah, for what, there was no evidence in the house that there was anything to check, no new carpet, no recently recleaned or repainted areas.


*If* Gricar's car had not been found in a spot that was familiar to both he and Patty (from previous trips there)


The area where they were familiar with was Central Pennsylvania


*If* Patty wasn't the person who retrieved the scent article from the home to use with the dogs


That statement may be incorrect.


*If* Patty hadn't been allowed to try & retrieve the laptop on her own, and *if* that laptop case had been fingerprinted


LE asked he to get it.


*If* the laptop had disappeared from somewhere other than Patty's upstairs closet in her home


LE were the people who ask her to get it.


*If* Bellefonte police hadn't waited 3 months to polygraph her, and *if* they had polygraphed others close to both her & Gricar


I hate to tell you this, but polygraphys don't have expiration dates.


*If* Patty hadn't said on TV that when she got home from work that she expected a note from Gricar (even though he supposedly had called her to tell her he would not be home)


She was expecting a wasn't home when she got there, if he'd returned home and left?


*If* Patty wasn't the only person in the world who claimed to have spoken to Gricar that Friday


If we believe the witnesses, she isn't/

*If* Gricar wasn't the wonderful father he was reported to have been


Whose daughter was 3000 miles away.


*If* Gricar wasn't looking forward to retirement as it was reported he was


Or something involving no longer working.


*If* Patty - the closest person to Gricar in Bellefonte - had made some effort to publicly call for his case to be solved over the past 3 years
*If* Patty hadn't shunned the local newspaper - which followed the case every step of the way -- for an interview on the anniversary date of his disappearance


She did, for the first year. She didn't comment on the third anniversary, possibly because she may share the opinion of so many others close to RFG.


*If* Patty wasn't the only one who reported being aware of some hard drive erasing software


She wasn't. She said she thought she saw the box. Others reported that he expressed an interest in eliminating the data.


there's probably lots more, but I'm tired & don't feel like digging thru it all.

But *if* any of those things had happened differently, she wouldn't be the #1 suspect in my mind.

IMO

edited to add --
And I still believe with all my heart, that the disappearance of John Glasgow of Little Rock, AR - almost with the same circumstances - is a copy cat of Gricar's case...

There is a lot more, PEF's time line for 4/15 that make it impossible for he to have gotten to Lewisburg and back. A phone call that she couldn't have possibly placed. 8-10 witnesses that say he was in Lewisburg. His scent being in Lewisburg.

[Politigal]

'Here's your sign'....maybe. When is the last time any of RG's relatives 'snuggled' up to PF? I actually am really serious in asking this...not that any of us 'net heads' would know.

Reckon we'll hear a peep from anyone?

I'm not holding my breath

[sherrijean981]

Reckon we'll hear a peep from anyone?

I'm not holding my breath


Probably not. You didn't mention SS, LG or question on finances in the post.

This could be why TG is so upset about something other than RG's disappearance, Dayton, OH's problems with job losses and companies closings:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/54222.html

[Chump#7]

Yaarrh! Twas an extremely well done and overdue summary, S1. You jolly pirate, you.

[Man, I'm beyond over 'pirate' references.]

It's the 'probable cause' problem I was hoping the elusive laptop's hard drive might yield. For whoever - I've got nothing personal against PF. Oh well...

It could be speculated however, that the laptop may have contained communication, emails, evidence of RG and the also unconfirmed 'Mystery Woman'. This could also be another reason RG supposedly inquired about how to erase hard drives. Who knows? Patty finds hard evidence of MW on laptop Thursday night while RG is at the courthouse, goes all Snapped when he returns, destroys/temporarily hides evidence of probable cause/motive (laptop), gets help staging the walkaway scene. Just speculating.

But there were 8-10 witnesses that saw RFG in Lewisburg Friday & Saturday!!!!!!

But her brother has a mustache!!! A big burley mustache!!!!

I know, I know... Your story, tell it how you want.

[sherrijean981]

Yaarrh! Twas an extremely well done and overdue summary, S1. You jolly pirate, you.

[Man, I'm beyond over 'pirate' references.]

It's the 'probable cause' problem I was hoping the elusive laptop's hard drive might yield. For whoever - I've got nothing personal against PF. Oh well...

It could be speculated however, that the laptop may have contained communication, emails, evidence of RG and the also unconfirmed 'Mystery Woman'. This could also be another reason RG supposedly inquired about how to erase hard drives. Who knows? Patty finds hard evidence of MW on laptop Thursday night while RG is at the courthouse, goes all Snapped when he returns, destroys/temporarily hides evidence of probable cause/motive (laptop), gets help staging the walkaway scene. Just speculating.

But there were 8-10 witnesses that saw RFG in Lewisburg Friday & Saturday!!!!!!

But her brother has a mustache!!! A big burley mustache!!!!

I know, I know... Your story, tell it how you want.

If she "snapped" how did she do it without leaving blood or evidence of the struggle between the little woman and the bigger man?

Snapped would be violent, not planned, wouldn't it?

Anger could lead to planning, which could lead to being drugged with sleeping pills in a drink, a plastic bag or pillow over the head/face while sleeping (but still the chance the big man is going to fight her), a push down the stairs (but that could just lead to a broken bone), or putting him in a car, putting the cement shoes on and dumping him in the quarry, of course then she would need the help of someone else.

:shrug:

[Chump#7]

Snapped was just a silly reference to the TV show of that name - where women murder their SO's/husband by whatever means, bloody or otherwise.

But yeah - drugged, choked, surprised...

[J. J. in Phila]

Yaarrh! Twas an extremely well done and overdue summary, S1. You jolly pirate, you.

[Man, I'm beyond over 'pirate' references.]

It's the 'probable cause' problem I was hoping the elusive laptop's hard drive might yield. For whoever - I've got nothing personal against PF. Oh well...

It could be speculated however, that the laptop may have contained communication, emails, evidence of RG and the also unconfirmed 'Mystery Woman'. This could also be another reason RG supposedly inquired about how to erase hard drives. Who knows? Patty finds hard evidence of MW on laptop Thursday night while RG is at the courthouse, goes all Snapped when he returns, destroys/temporarily hides evidence of probable cause/motive (laptop), gets help staging the walkaway scene. Just speculating.

But there were 8-10 witnesses that saw RFG in Lewisburg Friday & Saturday!!!!!!

But her brother has a mustache!!! A big burley mustache!!!!

I know, I know... Your story, tell it how you want.

Chump, I've never had a problem with the "crime of passion" motivation. I can see how something on the evening of 4/14/05 that ending with an enraged PEF attacking RFG. I think it is possibly for something like that in a personal relationship which we can never know anything about.

What I have a problem with is trying then to construct this fairly elaborate window dressing to hide it, and trying to do it in about 12 hours.

P'gal thinks PEF's brother is involved. Okay, but the problem is that, possibly excepting in a dark ally, no one will ever mistake PEF's brother for RFG. He looks younger than PEF, who was substantially younger than RFG. His hair is longer, darker and he had a mustache two days later; he was in the news conference photos. He might be shorter. This is basically a plan that involves the line, "Okay, you put on your Ray Gricar mask and spend the afternoon in Lewisburg."

The scent is a detail I never would have thought of on the spur of the moment, to try to full dogs that might be called in, if the car is found, if the police don't say, "Call back in 24 hours."

Maybe the CIA could pull that off, but not a clerk from Bellefonte.

That is the same reason I think that if this walk away or murder, it wasn't a spontaneous act.

[Cloudbuster]

What bugs at me is if RG really called about letting the dog out to take a poo????

If RG cared that much about the dog pooing in the house then it shows he was still being meticious at 11:20 that afternoon.

What the heck happened about being meticious after 11:20? At this point seems something major had to happen. Seems he no longer gave a poo what the dog did. He also didn't care about his usual dinner with PF at Gamble Mill restraunt.

Seems she didn't wait or suspect him home cause she went to gym. It's like she too knew something was up like maybe a fight the night before? Same cloths point to slept on the couch in them.

Maybe it is just a coindence that they had a disagreement the night before. Maybe she isn't saying that because of how that would look. :confused:

[Politigal]

What bugs at me is if RG really called about letting the dog out to take a poo????

If RG cared that much about the dog pooing in the house then it shows he was still being meticious at 11:20 that afternoon.

What the heck happened about being meticious after 11:20? At this point seems something major had to happen. Seems he no longer gave a poo what the dog did. He also didn't care about his usual dinner with PF at Gamble Mill restraunt.

Seems she didn't wait or suspect him home cause she went to gym. It's like she too knew something was up like maybe a fight the night before? Same cloths point to slept on the couch in them.

Maybe it is just a coindence that they had a disagreement the night before. Maybe she isn't saying that because of how that would look. :confused:

Great observations Cloudbuster :)

[Politigal]

Chump, I've never had a problem with the "crime of passion" motivation. I can see how something on the evening of 4/14/05 that ending with an enraged PEF attacking RFG. I think it is possibly for something like that in a personal relationship which we can never know anything about.

What I have a problem with is trying then to construct this fairly elaborate window dressing to hide it, and trying to do it in about 12 hours.

P'gal thinks PEF's brother is involved. Okay, but the problem is that, possibly excepting in a dark ally, no one will ever mistake PEF's brother for RFG. He looks younger than PEF, who was substantially younger than RFG. His hair is longer, darker and he had a mustache two days later; he was in the news conference photos. He might be shorter. This is basically a plan that involves the line, "Okay, you put on your Ray Gricar mask and spend the afternoon in Lewisburg."

The scent is a detail I never would have thought of on the spur of the moment, to try to full dogs that might be called in, if the car is found, if the police don't say, "Call back in 24 hours."

Maybe the CIA could pull that off, but not a clerk from Bellefonte.

That is the same reason I think that if this walk away or murder, it wasn't a spontaneous act.

You are assuming that people truly saw Gricar in Lewisburg.

You are assuming Patty's whereabouts Thursday night....all night...and Friday night til 8:30pm.

We never did hear who the *friend* was that accompanied Patty to the courthouse after Gricar didn't come home.

I still wonder if he or she was a smoker.

[sherrijean981]

What bugs at me is if RG really called about letting the dog out to take a poo????

If RG cared that much about the dog pooing in the house then it shows he was still being meticious at 11:20 that afternoon.

What the heck happened about being meticious after 11:20? At this point seems something major had to happen. Seems he no longer gave a poo what the dog did. He also didn't care about his usual dinner with PF at Gamble Mill restraunt.

Seems she didn't wait or suspect him home cause she went to gym. It's like she too knew something was up like maybe a fight the night before? Same cloths point to slept on the couch in them.

Maybe it is just a coindence that they had a disagreement the night before. Maybe she isn't saying that because of how that would look. :confused:

Honey was sick with a kidney problem and they were taking her out at regular intervals. When RG was off he saw to her outside needs. He took that drive and called to let her know he was not going to make it back in time to take Honey out, letting PF know she would have to do it on her lunch time. Honey has since died of the illness.

LE could very easily check that out, and might have, by getting in touch with the vet who was treating her and find out exactly what her problem was, were they taking her for treatments, etc.

[Politigal]

Honey was sick with a kidney problem and they were taking her out at regular intervals. When RG was off he saw to her outside needs. He took that drive and called to let her know he was not going to make it back in time to take Honey out, letting PF know she would have to do it on her lunch time. Honey has since died of the illness.

LE could very easily check that out, and might have, by getting in touch with the vet who was treating her and find out exactly what her problem was, were they taking her for treatments, etc.

But, supposedly RG left the house sometime after 9 or 9:30 am right? Surely the dog was let out at that time. So, then per your version Patty had to let the dog out at 12pm since RG wasn't there....but she went back to work til 4:30 or 5pm. The dog had to wait 4 to 5 hours to be let out then....or do you think Patty left the office in the afternoon for another doggie walk?

[sherrijean981]

IMO, there didn't need to be any big news announcement of what had to have happened regarding the car. The actions by the various parties involved that occurred after the car was found in the lot speaks the volumes necessary to reach a conclusion. There are only two who could have approved moving and not returning the car, either LE or PF.

TG said the car was gone by the time he and his brother arrived somewhere around midnight, IIRC. That jibes with the poster on another board who claims to have seen the red and white Mini parked at the Milton barracks on Saturday evening, meaning before midnight.

What LE group is going to move a vehicle prior to the dogs arrival? LE officials know that doing so is going to contaminate the scenting evidence. Every appearance, judging solely from the evidence as we know it, indicates PF was notified after the car was found. TG and CG obviously were also notified, but they are NOT the owners of the car therefore it would not be within their authority to say the car should be moved. The owner of the car may have asked for their opinion, but at no time have I read of any indication of that having occurred, with TG saying the car was moved before they arrived.

Putting the pieces together, with only two choices as to who had authority to call for the car to be moved, while knowing full well NO LE is going to disturb evidence prior to the scent dog arriving, boils it down to ONE and only ONE person who could have possibly insisted the car be removed and processed before the dog was brought to the scene.

Likewise, IF the owner insisted the car be removed for processing, any LE is going to want it returned in hopes the dog, when it does arrive, will go from the vehicle in a specific direction or to a specific location, not bouncing all around the lot searching out scent pockets. The car, not being returned to the lot, once again indicates it was NOT LE calling the shots. IMO, it would have been returned if it had been LE's choice.

I give the benefit of the doubt to LE; that they would absolutely have chosen to act in accordance with proper procedure. The only person then that could have possibly caused LE to change standard procedure, and cause the move, was if the owner insisted upon it. Likewise, IMO, the only person who could have prevented the move back to the lot was the owner, since I believe it logically would have been LE's choice to have it returned so the scenting procedure could begin at the car, at the scene, in the lot.

It all begins at the lot. I will again guess the car was opened by the car key that the owner would have produced upon arrival. IF the door to the vehicle was opened in the lot after the key arrived, the scenting evidence was then tampered with. Opening the door before the dog arrived allowed 'spillage' that could then move and pocket, thus confusing the dog(s). The dog should have been the first one in the car, car door never opened until such time as the dog was present.

Since LE did NOT act in a manner that would be consistent with proper procedure, and I seriously doubt that they don't usually adhere to such, I believe someone else had to have been calling the shots. IMO, there is ONE and ONLY ONE who could have done so---the owner of the vehicle.

If there is a more logical explanation that ties all aspects, as we know them, together, I would love to hear it. After much study, I see no other logical reason why LE would have proceeded to do something that is totally inconsistent with what would be expected. They could obviously see in the car, and know he was not inside. The actions that follow speak of an owner who first of all, wanted the car removed and second of all, didn't want it returned to the lot. These are actions inconsistent of a 'soulmate' who claims she has not 'given up'. IMO, her actions indicate she immediately gave up and I believe she knows more than she is telling.
JMO


I am getting confused with the SOS parking lot, the car, dogs scenting and having the car checked out.

I was under the impression the car was still in the lot when the dogs arrived and they scented around it. After the dogs did their scenting that the car was removed from the lot by LE and taken to the Milton barracks and gone over by LE. After the car was searched and prints removed by LE, they wanted to put it back in the lot and see if RG would come back to the car. It was at that point PF said she wanted it taken home.

I am not so sure I would leave my car in an empty lot where there was an investigation going on in that area, for drug dealers, either.
And if there were even hints coming from LE that RG could be somewhere with the MW, you can bet you sweet A$$, he could walk home if he did decide to come back for it.

And from some of the past statements by DZ, there was talk of RG being with someone else, and he would have to explain to PF what was going on.

With no scent around the SOS, the banks of the river, the park, or bridge, only around the car, they even said it looked like he could have gotten in another car. (A MW?) Who knows. But no body has shown up yet from the river.

By the way, did LE down there ever find any bones from the report of a man seeing bones?

They have found the laptop, the car, his cell phone. What wasn't found was his wallet and his keys. Was he forgetful of the fact PF's car key was on it, or was he in the parking lot of the CCCH around 3:00 pm to return it? Maybe in her car, her desk, or his desk? Has anyone ever mentioned finding a set of keys in the area? At home, at the office or on the street?

If he had another car he was probably using his key ring and his wallet would have his driver's license, ID, old or new, and whatever money he had with him. The car and cell phone belonged to someone else.

[UndertheRadar]

I am getting confused with the SOS parking lot, the car, dogs scenting and having the car checked out.

I was under the impression the car was still in the lot when the dogs arrived and they scented around it. After the dogs did their scenting that the car was removed from the lot by LE and taken to the Milton barracks and gone over by LE. After the car was searched and prints removed by LE, they wanted to put it back in the lot and see if RG would come back to the car. It was at that point PF said she wanted it taken home.


SJ,

Take a look at this post:

Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:32:14 AM by tomkat

on this site:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1385294/posts

Assuming the time stamps are accurate on the site, the post would have been written on Sunday, 4/17 at about the time LE were waiting at the parking lot for the dogs to arrive.

Tomkat describes taking two photos on Saturday night, one of the parking lot where the car had been found and one directly after that at the police barracks of the red and white Mini Cooper. (Originally, the photos were on the site. They've since apparently been removed, but I remember seeing them there long ago.) At any rate, by Saturday night, the Mini had been removed from the lot.

Early reporting on the dog teams added to confusion on this point, because a number of news articles were vague enough to make it sound as if the vehicle was still in the lot when the dogs were brought on the scene. IIRC, some later articles clarified the point.

[sherrijean981]

But, supposedly RG left the house sometime after 9 or 9:30 am right? Surely the dog was let out at that time. So, then per your version Patty had to let the dog out at 12pm since RG wasn't there....but she went back to work til 4:30 or 5pm. The dog had to wait 4 to 5 hours to be let out then....or do you think Patty left the office in the afternoon for another doggie walk?


Maybe it wasn't 9 or 9:30 he left. He could have been out of he house right after PF. No one saw him leave. I know or get home the night before.

[J. J. in Phila]

'Maybe the CIA could pull that off, but not a clerk from Bellefonte.'???

What a strange statement to make considering the clerk from Bellefonte went to college to study criminal procedure, was a parole officer for years, and then a victim's advocate PRIOR to becoming a clerk from Bellefonte. She would have as much or more experience in knowing LE procedure as some of the officers who likely investigated.
JMO

PEF's degree wasn't in criminology (a separate degree) and it was given 19 years before RFG disappeared. It's an administration of justice degree which is more of an administrative degree. A high school classmate of mine got one, and she's an administrator with the Girl Scouts.

DNA testing itself wasn't admissible in court until 1986 (and that wasn't in PA), so even if she had a degree in criminology, a lot was of new since then.

Probation officers are not generally investigators either. At best the "science" of the job is getting a hair or urine sample. Are they familiar with police response in cases of someone reported missing? No.

SJ, you are correct. The latest RFG left was about 10:30 AM to 10:45 AM.

[day2day]

When I first came to this board, I initially thought Gricar had "run away" from his life....but after reading more, that just didn't jibe with the type of person he was described as being.

And if some of the circumstances *had* been different, I wouldn't suspect Patty at all.

Some of those include --

*If* Gricar had told someone else he was going to take off work that Friday (like he usually did in advance)
*If* Gricar hadn't vanished in supposedly the same clothing he was wearing the day before
*If* Gricar hadn't made that weird phone call (which I don't believe he did) at 11:30am that day to tell Patty he wouldn't be home at lunch to let the dog out...??? which still makes no sense IMO, and *if* she wasn't the only person answering the phone at work in that particular time frame

*If* Gricar - during that phone call - had asked if any co workers were looking for him or if he had any messages from anyone at the office
*If* Patty hadn't gone to the gym, and reportedly assumed that he was late coming home because he had stopped for a bite to eat (when they always had dinner out together at the restaurant on Friday nights in the past)
*If* Patty had phoned anyone else besides her brother that night when he hadn't come home - like his best friend - his daughter - or another co worker, just to see if they had spoken to Gricar
*If* after having spoken to Patty, the profiler hadn't immediately come to the conclusion that Gricar committed suicide
*If* in the first press conference that Patty hadn't said "we will wait for as long as we need to" and if Zaccagni hadn't said "she'll find out why he's doing this to her when he comes home"
*If* Bellefonte police had actually done a forensic investigation at the home
*If* Gricar's car had not been found in a spot that was familiar to both he and Patty (from previous trips there)
*If* Patty wasn't the person who retrieved the scent article from the home to use with the dogs
*If* Patty hadn't been allowed to try & retrieve the laptop on her own, and *if* that laptop case had been fingerprinted
*If* the laptop had disappeared from somewhere other than Patty's upstairs closet in her home
*If* Bellefonte police hadn't waited 3 months to polygraph her, and *if* they had polygraphed others close to both her & Gricar
*If* Patty hadn't said on TV that when she got home from work that she expected a note from Gricar (even though he supposedly had called her to tell her he would not be home)
*If* Patty wasn't the only person in the world who claimed to have spoken to Gricar that Friday
*If* Gricar wasn't the wonderful father he was reported to have been
*If* Gricar wasn't looking forward to retirement as it was reported he was
*If* Patty - the closest person to Gricar in Bellefonte - had made some effort to publicly call for his case to be solved over the past 3 years
*If* Patty hadn't shunned the local newspaper - which followed the case every step of the way -- for an interview on the anniversary date of his disappearance
*If* Patty wasn't the only one who reported being aware of some hard drive erasing software


there's probably lots more, but I'm tired & don't feel like digging thru it all.

But *if* any of those things had happened differently, she wouldn't be the #1 suspect in my mind.

IMO

edited to add --
And I still believe with all my heart, that the disappearance of John Glasgow of Little Rock, AR - almost with the same circumstances - is a copy cat of Gricar's case...

Politigal-
Great post and ITA. Lots of ifs and no answers. It breaks my heart that Mr. Gricar has not been found. :seeya:

[Cloudbuster]

If RG cared about Honey enough to call PF about it at 11:20 then why didn't he no longer care after that? RG was meticious and the call about Honey shows just how meticious he was.

Now what happened after that point that all the sudden we have a philanding DA, with a possible MW? Then we have a man who wants to be a Mel Wiley? We have a man in a different vechicle maybe. We got a man who can just forget about his daughter and newphews and his SO? He forgets his retirement his collectibles and his SSI. hmmmm logically that is not RG IMO.:read:

[sherrijean981]

If RG cared about Honey enough to call PF about it at 11:20 then why didn't he no longer care after that? RG was meticious and the call about Honey shows just how meticious he was.

Now what happened after that point that all the sudden we have a philanding DA, with a possible MW? Then we have a man who wants to be a Mel Wiley? We have a man in a different vechicle maybe. We got a man who can just forget about his daughter and newphews and his SO? He forgets his retirement his collectibles and his SSI. hmmmm logically that is not RG IMO.:read:

Your theory is he was killed. And everyone else has the same thought, everything else is just a blinder to that fact. Now all we have to do is find out how.

But! Something could have pi$$ed him off so much, like all of the things that were going wrong that last couple months or so with his job and court cases, things we don't know about at work or with someone else, maybe even his family, and he could have just walked away. Would the RG every one in Bellefonte knows do that? A lot of people do think he would.

As to the post about the dog, he did care enough about Honey to let PF know he wasn't going to be there in the afternoon. Maybe that could have been a message in and of itself. Maybe she was reading things into that call too but has never voiced her opinions. You know, if you don't say it, it won't be true???? Self protection of being dumped by someone you love?

[J. J. in Phila]

Your theory is he was killed. And everyone else has the same thought, everything else is just a blinder to that fact. Now all we have to do is find out how.

But! Something could have pi$$ed him off so much, like all of the things that were going wrong that last couple months or so with his job and court cases, things we don't know about at work or with someone else, maybe even his family, and he could have just walked away. Would the RG every one in Bellefonte knows do that? A lot of people do think he would.

As to the post about the dog, he did care enough about Honey to let PF know he wasn't going to be there in the afternoon. Maybe that could have been a message in and of itself. Maybe she was reading things into that call too but has never voiced her opinions. You know, if you don't say it, it won't be true???? Self protection of being dumped by someone you love?

The call did something else. It established where RFG was and led LE to the car. RFG could have just easily sent an email before he left, or called from the house (no record), or told PEF that he'd be going out for a drive later in the day. BTW: If PEF were making up a story about the call, it would have been both easier and safer to develop one of these stories.

[UndertheRadar]

Actually, the call only established where Gricar's phone was.

[sherrijean981]

The call did something else. It established where RFG was and led LE to the car. RFG could have just easily sent an email before he left, or called from the house (no record), or told PEF that he'd be going out for a drive later in the day. BTW: If PEF were making up a story about the call, it would have been both easier and safer to develop one of these stories.


I was wondering if someone else was with him, that he might have used the dog as a ruse to let PF know something was wrong. Telling the person he had to let PF know he wouldn't be back in time to take the dog out. Maybe Honey didn't need taken out, and she was to pick up on that. Making her wonder what was going on.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think PEF left a note regarding walking Honey.

I can't really see, if RFG was was being kidnapped, for example, that a kidnapper would let his call PEF.

[gstickley]

I think PEF left a note regarding walking Honey.

I can't really see, if RFG was was being kidnapped, for example, that a kidnapper would let his call PEF.

Why would PF leave a note? If he were awake before she left for work, why wouldn't she just tell him?. If RG were so dedicated to the dog, wouldn't he have known to walk the dog without being told?

[J. J. in Phila]

You are assuming that people truly saw Gricar in Lewisburg.

You are assuming Patty's whereabouts Thursday night....all night...and Friday night til 8:30pm.

We never did hear who the *friend* was that accompanied Patty to the courthouse after Gricar didn't come home.

I still wonder if he or she was a smoker.

Yes, I have conclude that if 8-10 people (probably more) saw him, including several who saw him in his car, he was there. Now, that ecludes the scent. No, I have not come up a reasonable way for it to be there except from RFG.

[J. J. in Phila]

Why would PF leave a note? If he were awake before she left for work, why wouldn't she just tell him?. If RG were so dedicated to the dog, wouldn't he have known to walk the dog without being told?

He went back to sleep.

He wouldn't have known if PEF would be back for lunch, so she left a note.

[gstickley]

He went back to sleep.

He wouldn't have known if PEF would be back for lunch, so she left a note.

Think JJ. RG had lived at that house for some times &, from what we've been told, should have been familiar with the dog & its habits/needs. According to one of PF's accounts of the morning of 04/15, she spoke with RG & they talked, 'did their daily thing'; when she left, he'd gone back to sleep. Surely, if RG had any liking/compassion for the dog, he'd have let the dog out prior to leaving the house. And, why wouldn't he have known whether PF would or would not be back for lunch. Didn't they talk?? Surely, she'd have known whether she'd be back for lunch when he was awake. I don't buy the need for a note about the dog when there was a phone, cell or otherwise, to communicate.

[Serendipitous1]

To me the whole ‘note’ thing has been a non-starter...particularly in light of journalistic bits versus an interrogation transcript. PF told GVS, “When I left for work that morning he had indicated that he was going to take the day off and he had fallen back to sleep. I left him a note asking that if he decided to go anywhere to let me know, so that I could go home and take care of the dog.” And it was reported by EN (CDT) that PF said, “We did our morning routine, and he said he planned to take the day off”. Then, within the context of the brief phone conversation later that morning...and the fact that RG did not mention where he was headed or when he would return, and there was no discussion about plans for the evening...PF said, “I left him a note and expected him to leave me a note.”

I cannot tell you how many times I have found notes on the breakfast counter. It is not hard to imagine a note such as, “If you aren’t going to be home at lunchtime, call me and I will take care of Honey. I might go to the gym after work. Let me know if you want to have dinner out later on.” If this was the gist of the note PF left, her press statements would be totally consistent. RG called her, albeit late morning and while on the road (not from the house before leaving), to tell her he was on 192 and would not be home to take care of the dog. There was no conversation then about anything beyond the noon dog care. So PF thought there might be a note at the house.

But there was no note. She might have expected RG to call her again that afternoon. But he did not call her again. She thought he would be home when she arrived after work. But he was not there. Maybe she called him then, but the call went to his voice-mail. She did say she thought he must just have been delayed. So maybe she leaves him a voice-message, then goes to the gym. When she returns, he still is not home. So maybe she calls him again. Her concern is mounting at this point, because he always calls if he will be late...but she is not panicking.

I have to believe (and I know it for a fact in my own situation) that this, or something very similar, is an absolutely ordinary occurrence in the lives of most couples. It usually ends in an apology and forgiveness...with the obligatory admonishment to not let it happen again. Unfortunately, that was not how this occurrence ended. But there is nothing which has been made public to suggest that PF had anything to do with that reality.

[J. J. in Phila]

Think JJ. RG had lived at that house for some times &, from what we've been told, should have been familiar with the dog & its habits/needs. According to one of PF's accounts of the morning of 04/15, she spoke with RG & they talked, 'did their daily thing'; when she left, he'd gone back to sleep. Surely, if RG had any liking/compassion for the dog, he'd have let the dog out prior to leaving the house. And, why wouldn't he have known whether PF would or would not be back for lunch. Didn't they talk?? Surely, she'd have known whether she'd be back for lunch when he was awake. I don't buy the need for a note about the dog when there was a phone, cell or otherwise, to communicate.

RFG couldn't have known if PEF would definitely be home for lunch. PEF wouldn't know if RFG would be staying in all day or would be going out. I'm not finding any of this strange in the least.

[J. J. in Phila]

She only asked him to let her know if he would NOT be home, in which case she would then go home---for the dog?

But if RG WAS going to be home, he didn't need to bother to let her know that little fact? How romantic!!

Considering how close work is to home,
Considering how young their relationship was,
Considering he was on a day off,
Considering he could be home at lunch with her
Considering he could have picked her up and taken her out to lunch,
Considering she could make time for the dog, all strange.
The doggie note looks like a back-up to a planned doggie call.
JMO

Closeness to home, the length of their relationship, and his day off have no relevance.

IF RFG was out, he could call about lunch if he was home; he wasn't. Nothing strange there.

[day2day]

Actually, the call only established where Gricar's phone was.

BINGO!! Nice to "see" you UTR!! :seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

Of course 'closeness' holds relevance.

She wasn't going home if he was there.
She was only going home if he wasn't there.

JMO

Because she didn't have to go home, if he was there to walk the dog. Couples do share the chores.

[Politigal]

Who told police Gricar had been tired & taking naps
Who told police Gricar took off work that day (without telling anyone else)
Who told police Gricar phoned that day
Who had been to the Street of Shops with Gricar before
Who went to the upstairs closet to fetch the laptop
Who provided a scent article to police for the dogs
Who told police Gricar had previously had some hard drive erasing software


Similar to the Brady bunch...with a twist

Patty, Patty, Patty

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha

[J. J. in Phila]

Who told police Gricar had been tired & taking naps
Who told police Gricar took off work that day (without telling anyone else)
Who told police Gricar phoned that day
Who had been to the Street of Shops with Gricar before
Who went to the upstairs closet to fetch the laptop
Who provided a scent article to police for the dogs
Who told police Gricar had previously had some hard drive erasing software


Similar to the Brady bunch...with a twist

Patty, Patty, Patty

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha

P'gal.

Who received the call, for which there was a record? PEF.

Who saw RFG in Lewisburg? 8-10 people, minimum, who had no connection to PEF.

Who, if anyone, did RFG tell he was taking the day off on the day before?

Who asked PEF to get the laptop? The police. Who called LE attention to RFG having a laptop? PEF.

Who told LE about RFG wanting to eliminate the data on the laptop? His coworkers, not PEF.

"Who provided a scent article to police for the dogs." Interestingly, LE actually made the selection. They asked for items, plural, and received them. I'm not sure that PEF actually knows which item was used or if she knew LE was going to use them for scenting.

Who told LE that RFG was acting unusually? JKA was one. According to her, so did a number of others.

Do you want to try again.

[Politigal]

No matter how special Patty Fornicola might be, no matter how well known or liked she might be in the community, why does it seem that this case wasn't given the scrutiny that any other missing persons case is given?

WHY was luminol never used at her home - in her basement - etc?

[J. J. in Phila]

No matter how special Patty Fornicola might be, no matter how well known or liked she might be in the community, why does it seem that this case wasn't given the scrutiny that any other missing persons case is given?

WHY was luminol never used at her home - in her basement - etc?


It isn't a question her being well know (I'd never heard of her prior to the case) or well liked (I'm not sure that she is). It is a question of 8-10 plus witnesses seeing RFG walking around or driving the Mini, roughly 50 miles away after the phone call, a dog detecting his scent in the same area, and PEF whereabouts being accounted for after that. Oh, and yes, she passed a polygraph.

Luminol is used when LE sees a suspicious area. No suspicious areas.

[sherrijean981]

It isn't a question her being well know (I'd never heard of her prior to the case) or well liked (I'm not sure that she is). It is a question of 8-10 plus witnesses seeing RFG walking around or driving the Mini, roughly 50 miles away after the phone call, a dog detecting his scent in the same area, and PEF whereabouts being accounted for after that. Oh, and yes, she passed a polygraph.

Luminol is used when LE sees a suspicious area. No suspicious areas.


I have recently met a couple people in different areas but from the Centre County area who had negative and positive things to say about PF, RG and the case. Just like on here.

[Chump#7]

No matter how special Patty Fornicola might be, no matter how well known or liked she might be in the community, why does it seem that this case wasn't given the scrutiny that any other missing persons case is given?

WHY was luminol never used at her home - in her basement - etc?

Partially, I think you answered your own question.

Honestly, initially anyway, given the circumstances, RG's profession and all that goes with it, that he was just missing (and still is); Even if the idea that foul play may be the reason for his disappearance, I doubt Patty, honestly, pinged anyone in LE's radar as a possible suspect. One would be preoccupied with dozens of other possibilities in the realm of foul play to even get there. I did. And initially, I think J.J. is right in that LE might only have implemented the use of luminol if something appeared suspicious, like the place reeked of bleach or something was out of place/broken (the rest of his reasons are total crap - more campaigning. IMO.). Now, given time for this to soak in, even if someone in LE did want to check out Patty's residence for signs of foul play, would they? Could they without probable cause? Would they even speak up knowing who she is in the community? I highly highly highly doubt it - not publicly in a LE role anyway. I know how small town central PA communities work - "You don't sh** where you eat", as it goes. Was/is she treated with kid gloves? Probably - innocently (initially) and deliberately (afterward).

As far a luminol goes - it's only going to reveal blood evidence. *If* this were to be a crime of passion, it wouldn't necessarily have to be 'bloody'.

It's going to take a lot more than "8-10 witnesses 08'!!!!" for this unturned stone to be budged.

[J. J. in Phila]

LE did walk through the house and looked for repainted and freshly cleaned spots, something that would indicate cleaning or hiding of evidence. There were none.

I found it a few years ago that PEF was initially a person of interest, though I don't remember if the title was formally used. The thing is, she had an alibi and you keep getting these witnesses that put RFG alive after noon on 4/15/05. Probably more than 10.

I'm waiting for P'gal "It was a zombie" theory.

[Politigal]

JJ- *none* of the so-called witnesses positively identified Ray Gricar.

None of the witness sightings could be corroborated....NONE

Stop with it already...hammer

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ- *none* of the so-called witnesses positively identified Ray Gricar.

None of the witness sightings could be corroborated....NONE

Stop with it already...hammer

The witnesses corroborate each other in same cases. Some of them saw the same things in the same place at the same time.

Your theory is:

1.. ALL the witnesses are wrong.

2. The dogs did really detect the scent.

3. PEF is capable of deceiving a polygraph.

It is very unlikely that any one of these thing are true. It is astronomically unlikely that ALL of these things are true.

[gstickley]

People must be so much more observant in Lewisburg than they are in Bellefonte. We're now up to "probably more than 10" witnesses in Lewisburg who saw Ray Gricar on 04/15/05. So sad that not a person in Bellefonte, where people who actually knew Ray Gricar, saw him after the park on 04/14 or at any time on 04/15. (Oh . . . maybe someone did; however, since no one saw fit to ask or interview the neighbors, it's okay. Bellefonte isn't important: Lewisburg is.)

Along with all the other "mistakements" made by LE, I also guess all the press releases that the famous telephone call was "the last time anyone saw or heard from Gricar" must be wrong too. (Those LEO's should get with "the program" & renounce all earlier press releases.)

Don't know which way the "dog" thing will fall. If the dogs are to be believed (& apparently LE did believe in them), then RG didn't leave the parking lot of the SOS. Since the owner of the SOS is one of the "probably more than 10" witnesses, then the dogs shouldn't be believed, because Bennett supposedly "saw" Gricar inside the SOS (a good distance from the parking lot!)

What to think? What to think? Oh, yeah . . . we're not to think on our own: we supposed to be forced fed what we're "supposed" to think so all will be right with "the program" & Ray Gricar's disappearance will remain forever a mystery. Don't make waves, because we must spare feelings. Don't voice an opinion, because it's wrong. Just remember the famous words: "No stone's been left unturned"; "Ya done a good job, Brownie"; "We will wait as long as it takes."

3 years, 7 months, 5 days, since 04/14/05.

jmo

[J. J. in Phila]

Please GS, RFG drove through Bellefonte and was in the borough, outside of his house for perhaps 10 minutes. He was driving.

RFG was in Lewisburg for several hours, at least. He was either moving his car in the lot, or walking, for all but one of those sightings. It is a big difference.

[Politigal]

Please GS, RFG drove through Bellefonte and was in the borough, outside of his house for perhaps 10 minutes. He was driving.

RFG was in Lewisburg for several hours, at least. He was either moving his car in the lot, or walking, for all but one of those sightings. It is a big difference.

:no:

I wish there was an online *firing squad* !!!

JJ --- there is no proof or evidence that Ray Gricar *drove* anywhere that Friday....NONE - NADA - ZILCH.


I realize I've posted this same statement several times before...but sometimes brick walls are difficult to penetrate.

[J. J. in Phila]

:no:

I wish there was an online *firing squad* !!!

JJ --- there is no proof or evidence that Ray Gricar *drove* anywhere that Friday....NONE - NADA - ZILCH.


I realize I've posted this same statement several times before...but sometimes brick walls are difficult to penetrate.

The phone call, backed up by the polygraph. 8-10 witnesses that we know of who saw him there, including one who saw him driving toward the area where the car was found, and several that him with the car in the parking lot. The dog detecting his scent in the parking lot where his car and the phone were found. That is called "evidence" and we have more of it than we do in many cases.

Now, please list all the evidence you've heard of or read about, that indicates someone else drove the car? Keep in mind that the car was not wiped down.

[J. J. in Phila]

If someone wanted LE to believe RG drove the car there, why would anyone be foolish enough to erase any RG prints? Wouldn't that be what they would want LE to find in the car? Why wipe down a water bottle that could have been there from the day before? Or his prints on a window? Or possible prints on a glove box? Nothing to prove how long they had been there.

The places where the prints were 'smeared' should be the points of LE focus. If the prints were everywhere in the car except on the places where a 'driver' would have to touch to drive, and the prints were smeared there, no reason why there should not have been top readable prints unless someone wore gloves and smeared the prints underneath.
JMO

First of all, how would they know who drank the water; how would they know his print was on the window?

There is of course another reason. They could be smeared because of the friction of turning the wheel to drive the car, or open the door.

And again, we have evident that RFG was in Lewisburg. Worth repeating: The phone call, backed up by the polygraph. 8-10 witnesses that we know of who saw him there, including one who saw him driving toward the area where the car was found, and several that him with the car in the parking lot. The dog detecting his scent in the parking lot where his car and the phone were found.

And what evidence is the that someone else drove the car?

[J. J. in Phila]

So far as I know, no readable prints, but smudges. Dust, and no third party could tell where the prints or DNA were.

[day2day]

:no:

I wish there was an online *firing squad* !!!

JJ --- there is no proof or evidence that Ray Gricar *drove* anywhere that Friday....NONE - NADA - ZILCH.


I realize I've posted this same statement several times before...but sometimes brick walls are difficult to penetrate.


BINGO Pgal...
after all this time -noone can PROVE that Mr. Gricar drove ANYWHERE on 4/15...

[J. J. in Phila]

BINGO Pgal...
after all this time -noone can PROVE that Mr. Gricar drove ANYWHERE on 4/15...

Wrong again, but what else is new.

[day2day]

Wrong again, but what else is new.

And you THINK you are right. Obviously -noone here agrees with you.
And of course they never have. Period.:D

[J. J. in Phila]

And you THINK you are right. Obviously -noone here agrees with you.
And of course they never have. Period.:D

Day, I don't really care about your opinion. But, of course, once again you are wrong. Even TG has said previously he thought his uncle was in Lewisburg. The real observers of the case, PB, the police, have said so. Only the mass conspiracy theorists don't agree.

Some people out think 9/11 wasn't really a terrorist attack either.

[Politigal]

Wrong again, but what else is new.

How is Day wrong? It is a *fact* --- No one has proven that Ray Gricar was in Lewisburg that day...no one.

[J. J. in Phila]

How is Day wrong? It is a *fact* --- No one has proven that Ray Gricar was in Lewisburg that day...no one.

Fact is there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that RFG was in Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05. Multiple witness reports putting him, and RFG in his car, in Lewisburg. The car was found in Lewisburg. The cell phone from which the call was in his car and both were in Lewisburg. The dog detected his scent in Lewisburg.

Now, I'll ask again, what evidence is the that anyone else drove his car to Lewisburg?

[Politigal]

Fact is there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that RFG was in Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05. Multiple witness reports putting him, and RFG in his car, in Lewisburg. The car was found in Lewisburg. The cell phone from which the call was in his car and both were in Lewisburg. The dog detected his scent in Lewisburg.

Now, I'll ask again, what evidence is the that anyone else drove his car to Lewisburg?

"Evidence beyond a reasonable doubt" ---

You are utterly ridiculous. :o

[J. J. in Phila]

"Evidence beyond a reasonable doubt" ---

You are utterly ridiculous. :o

No, sust "twisting the bejeezus out of" the facts.

You know, I asked you this question, P'gal:

What evidence is the that anyone else drove his car to Lewisburg?

Here was your answer to that question in full:

[J. J. in Phila]

Simple answer is that only the freshest and strongest scent was detected.

[Politigal]

And Patty provided the scent article.

*And* to be more specific....the car was *hers.* It was a gift to her. It was titled in her name...and she also drove it.

So, literally speaking...*Patty's* car was found in Lewisburg.

[J. J. in Phila]

And Patty provided the scent article.


Wrong again. the police chose what to use. Keep spinning.


*And* to be more specific....the car was *hers.* It was a gift to her. It was titled in her name...and she also drove it.

So, literally speaking...*Patty's* car was found in Lewisburg.

And, according to TG, RFG drove it almost exclusively.

[day2day]

Day, I don't really care about your opinion. But, of course, once again you are wrong. Even TG has said previously he thought his uncle was in Lewisburg. The real observers of the case, PB, the police, have said so. Only the mass conspiracy theorists don't agree.

Some people out think 9/11 wasn't really a terrorist attack either.


Really JJ
Enough is enough. I have been posting on this forum since day1. I could give a rats arse if you care or not. I try only to read and NOT post beause everytime i post you attack me. I will not be attacked by you anymore. Period.

Ya don't like my posts-you don't care about my opinion-skip them. If you continue-i will report you.

[J. J. in Phila]

Really JJ
Enough is enough. I have been posting on this forum since day1. I could give a rats arse if you care or not. I try only to read and NOT post beause everytime i post you attack me. I will not be attacked by you anymore. Period.

Ya don't like my posts-you don't care about my opinion-skip them. If you continue-i will report you.

Yes, Day, enough is enough. You are entitled to your own opinions but not you own facts. We have P'gal insisting that Sloane family was from Ohio, when, in fact he lived in and went to school in, Central Pennsylvania.

We have P'gal, and not so much you, saying "all the witnesses are wrong, the dogs are wrong, the polygraph is wrong," And when ask for any evidence that they are. This is the response:




[This space intentionally left blank]



Report me, please. None of my posts are violations; you just don't like them. Some of the others however, basically accusing someone who has an alibi, passed a polygraph, and concocting a story that is refuted by physical evidence may be.

[J. J. in Phila]

I heard about it, but it wasn't a topic of conversation with my friends or coworkers, eight years after the fact. Obviously, Sloane knew who Wiley was because RFG mentioned Wiley; he remembered it (getting the first name wrong) only when asked. It appears that they discussed the incident, not just the name.

[day2day]

How is Day wrong? It is a *fact* --- No one has proven that Ray Gricar was in Lewisburg that day...no one.

Exactly. Noone has proven HE was there. It makes me sad that we are still here-and no answers.

[day2day]

People must be so much more observant in Lewisburg than they are in Bellefonte. We're now up to "probably more than 10" witnesses in Lewisburg who saw Ray Gricar on 04/15/05. So sad that not a person in Bellefonte, where people who actually knew Ray Gricar, saw him after the park on 04/14 or at any time on 04/15. (Oh . . . maybe someone did; however, since no one saw fit to ask or interview the neighbors, it's okay. Bellefonte isn't important: Lewisburg is.)

Along with all the other "mistakements" made by LE, I also guess all the press releases that the famous telephone call was "the last time anyone saw or heard from Gricar" must be wrong too. (Those LEO's should get with "the program" & renounce all earlier press releases.)

Don't know which way the "dog" thing will fall. If the dogs are to be believed (& apparently LE did believe in them), then RG didn't leave the parking lot of the SOS. Since the owner of the SOS is one of the "probably more than 10" witnesses, then the dogs shouldn't be believed, because Bennett supposedly "saw" Gricar inside the SOS (a good distance from the parking lot!)

What to think? What to think? Oh, yeah . . . we're not to think on our own: we supposed to be forced fed what we're "supposed" to think so all will be right with "the program" & Ray Gricar's disappearance will remain forever a mystery. Don't make waves, because we must spare feelings. Don't voice an opinion, because it's wrong. Just remember the famous words: "No stone's been left unturned"; "Ya done a good job, Brownie"; "We will wait as long as it takes."

3 years, 7 months, 5 days, since 04/14/05.

jmo

Unbelieveable isn't it gs!! A man as well known as Mr. Gricar can leave his office-go home...leave the next morning and NOT one person other than PF saw him.

I for one will NEVER beileve the lies that are being told ..and I will never stop searching for the truth.

And the no stone left unturned is the biggest line of BS i have ever heard. Heck they missed boulders.....

jmohammer

[J. J. in Phila]

Exactly. Noone has proven HE was there. It makes me sad that we are still here-and no answers.

Day, when the answer appears, you may not like it.

He have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that RFG was in Lewisburg. What we don't have evidence of is what happened to him after that.

[day2day]

Day, when the answer appears, you may not like it.

He have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that RFG was in Lewisburg. What we don't have evidence of is what happened to him after that.

IF Mr. Gricar was there..i have an idea what happened to him. Sadly, i can't prove it ...and probly should not post it here.

JJ...I don't have to be right..thats not why i am here. I just want to know what happened to him and i pray this never happens again. Although I never met Mr. Gricar- i feel like he needs a voice. Every missing person does....


jmo

[J. J. in Phila]

IF Mr. Gricar was there..i have an idea what happened to him. Sadly, i can't prove it ...and probly should not post it here.

JJ...I don't have to be right..thats not why i am here. I just want to know what happened to him and i pray this never happens again. Although I never met Mr. Gricar- i feel like he needs a voice. Every missing person does....


jmo

First, there is too much evidence that he was in Lewisburg, and alive after noon on 4/15/05 to honestly question that.

Second, that said, there is a 90% chance that one of these two things happened:

A. He voluntarily disappeared and was alive on 4/18/05. (46%)

B. He was murdered and was dead by 4/18/05. (44%)

Those are mutually exclusive possibilities and at least one is wrong.

Now, if A is correct, there will be some evidence of the method RFG used to get out of Lewisburg. If LE checked all those methods, and didn't find anything, it would be likely that A is wrong and B is right. I doubt if LE checked all methods, but if and when they do, and if the results are negative, B. is the most likely answer.

It is easier to eliminate A, that to eliminate B. That's why I think option A should be the most pressing avenue of investigation.

[J. J. in Phila]

TOO much evidence? PLEEZEEEEEE. Have you seen evidence that we haven't?
JMO

Maybe, but I'm referring to Lewisburg. It is out there, but you are ignoring it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked P'gal:

What evidence do you have that anyone than RFG drove the car to Lewisburg?

We have published evidence that RFG did.

[J. J. in Phila]

Unbelieveable isn't it gs!! A man as well known as Mr. Gricar can leave his office-go home...leave the next morning and NOT one person other than PF saw him.

I for one will NEVER beileve the lies that are being told ..and I will never stop searching for the truth.

And the no stone left unturned is the biggest line of BS i have ever heard. Heck they missed boulders.....

jmohammer

Except the we have 8-10 witnesses, probably more, that saw RFG afternoon. Is this more of the "All the witnesses are wrong" theory.

[J. J. in Phila]

WE are us, the public, or at least that segment of the public that looks at the case.

Yes, we have three accounts that RFG was seen in his car in Lewisburg. There may be unpublished ones.

Union County will be investigating what? What crime? The PSP is the group that found the car, and the car was taken for a forensic examination.

[sherrijean981]

JJ, my hat is off to you for your continued support of the LE teams of Centre and Union Counties. For the continued bombardment against everything that has been done so far in this case. And for not getting flustered and discouraged with all the knives and swords thrown your way. I can see why you are in the professional field you are in!

:patriot:

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, I still think there are some things that that were not well done, but the first 48-72 hours were better than the Song case in Ferguson Township (or was it College Township) and the Smith case in Philadelphia.

I will fault the BPD on these things:

1. The put out inaccurate information on the prints.

2. Unless the witness didn't see the face, a composite for the MW should have been done.

3. There should have been more follow up with Fenton, and the Wilkes-Barre witnesses. Fenton should not have been so easily dismissed, because part of her story has been backed up by Grine.

Now, those are "second week" things.

Of course, I have crystal clear 20/20 hindsight and can spend three years thinking about the questions as well. :) Some things might be a bit clearer not than they were then.

[Politigal]

I found a photo online tonight of "Dia" (Regina) Fornicola - relative of Patty - who taught aerobics at the Y at the time of Gricar's disappearance (an aerobics cassette tape was found behind the wheel of the car at the lot)....interesting IMO that she resembles the description of the mystery woman, especially the hair length.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824465@N04/975503910/in/set-72157601138269088/

Zaccagni described the mystery woman as resembling reporter Sara James

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/3949094/

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/12756052/

[J. J. in Phila]

I found a photo online tonight of "Dia" (Regina) Fornicola - relative of Patty - who taught aerobics at the Y at the time of Gricar's disappearance (an aerobics cassette tape was found behind the wheel of the car at the lot)....interesting IMO that she resembles the description of the mystery woman, especially the hair length.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824465@N04/975503910/in/set-72157601138269088/

Zaccagni described the mystery woman as resembling reporter Sara James

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/3949094/

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/12756052/

Yes, it only about six inches shorter and much thinner. http://www.jimmurphyda.com/images/sarajames.jpg

:rolleyes:

I can actually James' ears and the other photo is over the lady's shoulders. Is this your suspect de jure?

Now you're seeing things as well.

[Politigal]

Yes, it only about six inches shorter and much thinner. http://www.jimmurphyda.com/images/sarajames.jpg

:rolleyes:

I can actually James' ears and the other photo is over the lady's shoulders. Is this your suspect de jure?

Now you're seeing things as well.

Did you know that hair can grow? Dia's photo is from 2007.

And Sara's photo is also from 2007 and the back part is definitely longer than shoulder length...take a closer look.

Also, if you look at older photos of Sara you can see the hair was longer.

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/070614/tdy_curry_bestfriends_070614.300w.jpg

http://www.gogomag.com/talkingheads/bios/females/Sara_James.php

http://www.harpercollins.com/members/firstLook/title.aspx?titleid=972

just refer to the Internet Wayback Machine at the MSNBC site to see when Sara's photo was updated there.

:no:

and your "six inches" difference...I guess is to be expected from a man...lol

[J. J. in Phila]

It is different enough length that someone could tell from behind. The 2007 photo is still substantially shorter and as you just noted, hair styles can change over the years. So basically, the lady in the photo could have had, shorter hair, longer hair, or been blond in 2005, right?

You're blond, right?

[Politigal]

It is different enough length that someone could tell from behind. The 2007 photo is still substantially shorter and as you just noted, hair styles can change over the years. So basically, the lady in the photo could have had, shorter hair, longer hair, or been blond in 2005, right?

You're blond, right?

Dia Fornicola is attractive & has dark brown hair. What part of Zaccagni's mystery woman description doesn't fit her?

Zaccagni said he revealed the information this week to "Dateline NBC" for a story about Gricar it plans to broadcast at 8 p.m. Saturday in the hopes the publicity would help police find the woman, or any other new lead. The mystery woman was described as between 5 feet 8 inches and 5 feet 10 inches tall, dark haired and "good looking," Zaccagni said.

[J. J. in Phila]

Dia Fornicola is attractive & has dark brown hair. What part of Zaccagni's mystery woman description doesn't fit her?

Zaccagni said he revealed the information this week to "Dateline NBC" for a story about Gricar it plans to broadcast at 8 p.m. Saturday in the hopes the publicity would help police find the woman, or any other new lead. The mystery woman was described as between 5 feet 8 inches and 5 feet 10 inches tall, dark haired and "good looking," Zaccagni said.

The height. The woman looks much shorter. Note that the two men in the photo are leaning down. Even if both men are over 6 feet, she's shorter than 5'8". The middle man appears to be over 6 feet, but look how far he's bending over.

(BTW: The one Fornicola I met was about 5' 5", and that was Gino.)

[Politigal]

The height. The woman looks much shorter. Note that the two men in the photo are leaning down. Even if both men are over 6 feet, she's shorter than 5'8". The middle man appears to be over 6 feet, but look how far he's bending over.

(BTW: The one Fornicola I met was about 5' 5", and that was Gino.)

It appears to me that Dia is sitting.

[J. J. in Phila]

It appears to me that Dia is sitting.

No chair, and she's leaning slightly to her right. No table in front of her either, which shows up in the other sitting people in the series.

The woman is standing, and short.

So basically, if her hair style is different, and she was taller, she'd match a description of having dark hair. Well, at least she doesn't have a mustache.

:rolleyes:

[Politigal]

JJ - look at the drinks sitting on the table in the right side of the photo...

sheesh

[UndertheRadar]

Curious, isn't it, Pgal? Think back to the Tyrone MW discussions. JJ swore up and down that the Tyrone MW was actually PF, even though PF is about 5'2" or 5'3" and the Marshalls said the woman RG was with matched the supposed LMW description of 5'8"-5'10". Now suddenly the height differential matters to JJ. LOL.

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ - look at the drinks sitting on the table in the right side of the photo...

sheesh

P'gal, the man bending down is between her and the table. She's not at a table; there is none in the foreground. Now either she pulled a chair onto the middle of the floor, or she's standing. She's standing. :rolleyes:

[sherrijean981]

She doesn't show up in the group photo but does have a tag on her shirt in P'gal's photo, not this one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824465@N04/973885589/in/set-72157601138269088/

When I first saw the photo I thought she might have been working at the place the reunion was held and was at the bar, maybe cleaning up a table, etc. She looks like she is holding a kitchen towel or bar cloth in P'gal's photo.

[J. J. in Phila]

She doesn't show up in the group photo but does have a tag on her shirt in P'gal's photo, not this one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824465@N04/973885589/in/set-72157601138269088/

When I first saw the photo I thought she might have been working at the place the reunion was held and was at the bar, maybe cleaning up a table, etc. She looks like she is holding a kitchen towel or bar cloth in P'gal's photo.

She's not sitting and whatever is behind her the man, the doctor, is standing in front of, he's between her and the lady. There are some other photos of the doctor online, and he's quite tall.

If you lighten the photo, you can very easily see people standing at a bar.

Also most of the sitting shots include a table in front of the person. So basically, if she were taller and her hair was shorter, she'd look like like mystery woman.

Of could if PEF's brother's hair was longer, he didn't have a mustache, and he was her sister, he'd look like the mystery woman too.

[Politigal]

She made a brief statement, and she had spoken extensively to the press prior to that.

not to the CDT ...per Pete. She declined.

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, in prior years, PEF has spoken to the CDT and the PPG, DI, WJAC, and possibly some other media outlets.

UTR, PEF is roughly 5'6" inches; the lady in the photo appears to be shorter than PEF.

[UndertheRadar]

If PF is 5'6", I'll eat my hat. There's a photo of PF, LG, and RG standing together. The top of PF's head is at LG's brow line, and her chin is at LG's lower jawline. She's significantly shorter than LG. And LG is signficantly shorter than RG, who is/was supposedly 6'. Every description of PF has called her "petite" and "small," something no woman who is 5'6" ever gets called.

And in much earlier posts when it was to your advantage, all gone now since the changeover to this format, you claimed PF was 5'2" tall. I remember distinctly, because you changed it up by the time discussion of the TMW arose. Then you wanted to make PF taller, so you did. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I've said, looking at that famous photo of LG, PEF, and RFG, that she looked about 5'6". That's not exactly tall.

I've also said that with heels, she could be 5'8". Good Lord, we've had numerous discussions of that. Now, I've never suggested six inch heels.

[Cloudbuster]

PF was described to me as a small petite woman and short not 5"6. Im 5'6' and theres is no way she is 5"6.

[J. J. in Phila]

PF was described to me as a small petite woman and short not 5"6. Im 5'6' and theres is no way she is 5"6.

I think I made the comparison with the LG, RFG, PEF photo, using his height. I think TG is taller than RFG.

[gstickley]

Sherrijean & Cinderella met PF some time ago while on a trip to Bellefonte.

Sherrijean or Cinderella: How tall is PF?

[Politigal]

Sherrijean & Cinderella met PF some time ago while on a trip to Bellefonte.

Sherrijean or Cinderella: How tall is PF?

If JJ is correct that Patty is 5'6" tall...that means she could be the mystery woman if she was wearing 2 inch heels. lol

here's a sample of a 2" heel

http://www.pierresilber.com/anklestraps.html

[J. J. in Phila]

If JJ is correct that Patty is 5'6" tall...that means she could be the mystery woman if she was wearing 2 inch heels. lol

here's a sample of a 2" heel

http://www.pierresilber.com/anklestraps.html

In Tyrone, yes. If the witness was accurate about height.

[gstickley]

If PF is 5-6, how tall do you think LG & TG are? (I suppose they could be standing on boxes, steps, or something, but I kinda doubt it.)

Early press conference (PF & LG, color coordinated):
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive...5dnews-09b.jpg

[gstickley]

If PF is 5-6, how tall do you think LG & TG are? (I suppose they could be standing on boxes, steps, or something, but I kinda doubt it.)

Early press conference (PF & LG, color coordinated):
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive...5dnews-09b.jpg

Well, the above link didn't work. HOWEVER: Check out "Sticky", dated 06/04/07, 10:40 AM, Post #89.

[J. J. in Phila]

If PF is 5-6, how tall do you think LG & TG are? (I suppose they could be standing on boxes, steps, or something, but I kinda doubt it.)

Early press conference (PF & LG, color coordinated):
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive...5dnews-09b.jpg


There were some photos of RFG and TG at the old site. TG is taller than his uncle, I'd guess 6' 3" or taller. LG is below six feet, but I'd guess tall for a woman, about 5' 9" or 10." RFG was listed at 6 feet.

The "yellow shirt photos" are available in the archives of the DC.

[Politigal]

We only have Patty's word that after working late Thursday night that Gricar went home.

It was posted a long time ago by someone that Gricar *walked* home from the courthouse that evening.

How do we know that Patty didn't meet him halfway, to possibly pick him up for a late dinner, and then they headed someplace else?

[J. J. in Phila]

We only have Patty's word that after working late Thursday night that Gricar went home.

It was posted a long time ago by someone that Gricar *walked* home from the courthouse that evening.

How do we know that Patty didn't meet him halfway, to possibly pick him up for a late dinner, and then they headed someplace else?

Because, except for some places in State College, that basically are student hangouts, most places are not open to serve food after 9:00 PM. I could get a three cheese omelet at 3:00 AM in downtown State College, but not in Bellefonte.

There is also the distinct possibility that they ate prior to the walk. There were five restaurants within 200 yards of the corner of the park closest to the Courthouse at the time, including Gamble Mills, minimum. That expands to 16 at 400 yards, minimum.

We also don't know if RFG was walking or driving and what car he was driving.

[Politigal]

And, I know it's been posted before....

But when RG didn't come home Fri evening, why didn't Patty drive the 6/10 of a mile to the courthouse, just to see if he was working? After all, he worked late the night before.

[J. J. in Phila]

And, I know it's been posted before....

But when RG didn't come home Fri evening, why didn't Patty drive the 6/10 of a mile to the courthouse, just to see if he was working? After all, he worked late the night before.

She might not have been able to get in, or RFG might have usually had his cell phone on if he was there after work. Also, he might have usually said something if he was working late (like the day before).