Missing DA - Ray GRICAR Wkend 2/15

[Politigal]

I echo TG's last post....Happy Friday....

[Politigal]

come on JJ ---

I'm ready....



hammer

[Cloudbuster]

PGAL ROFLMAO!!! hammer I like this icon looks like a breath of energy.yell I guess it really is lol. I was reflecting on what TG said today about RG being portrayed as toooo meticulus( respell it) lol. I think clean and neat is the better terms. I also think RG had a kool side as he let Tony drive his car knowing all too well that devilish smile was about to rocket his poor mini into tail spins lol. Im glad at any rate that he rectified the meaning. I just invisioned Ray to be very organized neat and clean. I think RG had a fun side to him when around most likly Lara and the nephews. I just wondered how he dealt with those in the office in relationship wise meaning Co workers particully the ADA's. Im centered on one but I can't say a outright name. I also wonder if all evidence was accounted for-that's important for me to know cause if it isn't then I think I know where it is. Thats why Im asking. I don't expect anyone to answer that on here but in a PM if you know would be great. If we compare nothing then each other knows what may help the other. JMO

[J. J. in Phila]

There hasn't exactly been anything "new" in the last twelve hours (except my client canceled out on me, thank heavens).

Right now, we know this, it is exceptionally likely RFG was in Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05.

RFG had an interest in walkaway cases, to the point of discussing Mel Wiley 6-7 years after the fact.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
There hasn't exactly been anything "new" in the last twelve hours (except my client canceled out on me, thank heavens).

Right now, we know this, it is exceptionally likely RFG was in Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05.

RFG had an interest in walkaway cases, to the point of discussing Mel Wiley 6-7 years after the fact. [/*]

I meant to ask you something....

Since you've posted as if you've actually communicated with Sloane.....please ask him if Patty Fornicola phoned him the evening Ray Gricar did not come home.

thank you, thank you very much

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


I meant to ask you something....

Since you've posted as if you've actually communicated with Sloane.....please ask him if Patty Fornicola phoned him the evening Ray Gricar did not come home.

thank you, thank you very much [/*]

I have communicated directly with Steve Sloane. In many cases, I do know what he has said.

I frankly do not know if Sloane was available on 4/15/05.

[Cloudbuster]

I wish LE would go check to see if one particular ADA was in the office friday and if any other ADA's was absent. Bet at least 2 of them was out or more. :read:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I have communicated directly with Steve Sloane. In many cases, I do know what he has said.

I frankly do not know if Sloane was available on 4/15/05. [/*]

Did it again. I have not directly communicated with Steve Sloane. I have communicated with people who have spoken with him.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I wish LE would go check to see if one particular ADA was in the office friday and if any other ADA's was absent. Bet at least 2 of them was out or more. :read: [/*]

I believe at least two were out of the office, Smith, traveling with his wife, and Sloane, who was on medical leave.

[Politigal]

Awesome overview Logic!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Let's take a look at some of these:

Originally posted by logicworks

1) the first sighting at 7:30 am in Centre Hall, according to person Cind talked to, saying he recognized RG from the news and the vehicle, which he claims he saw making a turn onto route 192.


Never reported to LE; I'm not sure how well someone could see the driver.



4) at the park in Lewisburg at 12-ish, seemingly waiting for someone, Mini parked on street near museum. RG said to be sitting on park bench, reading a newspaper, IIRC.


I don't recall the time being "12ish." I don't believe that a time was assigned, except afternoon.


7) Down at Shickellamy Park in the Mini: IIRC, d2d's dad heard a sighting report on news.


8) On route 80, near an exit, in the Mini, stopped with someone coercing him to get out of the car and him speeding away.


I think you include that someone saw a Mini; there were other red Minis in the area.


9) In the SOS parking lot, RG seen getting into another vehicle.


I've seen it as "a vehicle," but not necessarily another one.


10) Mini arrives in the SOS lot sometime between 4:30-5 pm.
(when did it leave if he was in seen getting into another vehicle?)


A witness said he heard this, but we've had no published direct witness to this.


15) Mini found in parking lot, in a different location, according to TG, at 6:30 pm Saturday, by PSP officer, on his way out to dinner.


I don't recall the difference in location being established, the the question has been raised.


Judging from the latest evidence, there is NO solid fingerprint evidence proving RG drove the car to Lewisburg on Friday or Saturday.


There is evidence that RFG was in the parking lot, namely his scent.


So are all of the reported sightings that we are aware of correct, are some of them correct or are none of them correct?

IMO, the stats on 'sightings' holds much truth ......while sighters are trying to be helpful, they are usually incorrect.
JMO [/*]

I've said this before. Will it is unlikely that all witnesses are completely correct in their reports, it is hugely unlikely that all of the witnesses are completely incorrect. When coupled with the scent, there is more than enough evidence to put RFG in Lewisburg, after noon 4/15/05.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I wish LE would go check to see if one particular ADA was in the office friday and if any other ADA's was absent. Bet at least 2 of them was out or more. :read: [/*]

I will go you one better.

I would like to know who was off work on 4/14/05 - 4/15/05 in the BPD?????
I would like to know who told or where DZ got the info that RG was in Huntingdon on 4/14/05?

I would like to know why the statements DZ made on ALL the fingerprints IN the car belonging to RG, are now coming out they are not RG's and there were no identifiable prints or no prints IN the car? What gives DZ??

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14338897.htm (link no longer workable.

Quote:
"Gricar case still baffles police a year later Posted on Fri, Apr. 14, 2006 By Pete Bosak pbosak@centredaily.com BELLEFONTE -- The car also told police nothing. ((((((( "All of the legible prints in the car were identified," Zaccagni said. "And they were Ray's." There were no indications anyone tried to "wipe the car clean" of any other fingerprints, Zaccagni said. "))))))) Quote

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


IMO, the stats on 'sightings' holds much truth ......while sighters are trying to be helpful, they are usually incorrect.
JMO [/*]

What bothers me is the one shop owner who does not want to be involved.

Why would someone who might have seen something, seen RG, seen his Mini Cooper being moved, seem him coerced into another car, maybe being hurt, not want to report that to the PSP or any officer who was in that area looking for RG and for information? Was there someone in her business that might have been involved?

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
What bothers me is the one shop owner who does not want to be involved.

Why would someone who might have seen something, seen RG, seen his Mini Cooper being moved, seem him coerced into another car, maybe being hurt, not want to report that to the PSP or any officer who was in that area looking for RG and for information? Was there someone in her business that might have been involved? [/*]You must know something I don't or you've created an amalgam of various "reports".

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
You must know something I don't or you've created an amalgam of various "reports". [/*]

for some odd reason....the word "amalgam" makes me think of Vitameatavegamin...:tongue:

[J. J. in Phila]

I noticed something in PB's latest posting:

As for your last question, if someone wore gloves, yes, that definitely would damage, destroy, smear, etc. whatever prints were there. But there also likely would have been some indication of gloves though. Police have said there was no evidence anyone tried to "wipe down" the Mini.
Pete Bosak 2/14/08

First, this has surpassed my knowledge level of fingerprinting. I could understand how someone handling an object while wearing gloves could (and probably would) smear the prints. I'm not certain how LE could determine if the object was handled by someone wearing gloves.

If they can, that could indicate that there was no one driving the car while gloved and no one attempting to hide prints.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal


for some odd reason....the word "amalgam" makes me think of Vitameatavegamin...:tongue: [/*]

Me too, but I could use some amalagam on my one tooth, it is irritating the heck out of my tongue, with it's sharp edge!!

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I will go you one better.

I would like to know who was off work on 4/14/05 - 4/15/05 in the BPD?????
I would like to know who told or where DZ got the info that RG was in Huntingdon on 4/14/05?

I would like to know why the statements DZ made on ALL the fingerprints IN the car belonging to RG, are now coming out they are not RG's and there were no identifiable prints or no prints IN the car? What gives DZ??

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14338897.htm (link no longer workable.

Quote:
"Gricar case still baffles police a year later Posted on Fri, Apr. 14, 2006 By Pete Bosak pbosak@centredaily.com BELLEFONTE -- The car also told police nothing. ((((((( "All of the legible prints in the car were identified," Zaccagni said. "And they were Ray's." There were no indications anyone tried to "wipe the car clean" of any other fingerprints, Zaccagni said. "))))))) Quote [/*]

GOOD Question SJ!! Now JJ your saying only 2 ADA's was out? SS and MS that's all? I really need to know this, it's important.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I noticed something in PB's latest posting:

As for your last question, if someone wore gloves, yes, that definitely would damage, destroy, smear, etc. whatever prints were there. But there also likely would have been some indication of gloves though. Police have said there was no evidence anyone tried to "wipe down" the Mini.
Pete Bosak 2/14/08

First, this has surpassed my knowledge level of fingerprinting. I could understand how someone handling an object while wearing gloves could (and probably would) smear the prints. I'm not certain how LE could determine if the object was handled by someone wearing gloves.

If they can, that could indicate that there was no one driving the car while gloved and no one attempting to hide prints. [/*]

Sounds like no one drove it!

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


GOOD Question SJ!! Now JJ your saying only 2 ADA's was out? SS and MS that's all? I really need to know this, it's important. [/*]

Hi CB, Did you get any info from the information you received the other day? I was searching the area in different newspapers in that area but only one drug bust stood out.

What all newspapers are in your area and what was the name given to you?

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
What bothers me is the one shop owner who does not want to be involved.

Why would someone who might have seen something, seen RG, seen his Mini Cooper being moved, seem him coerced into another car, maybe being hurt, not want to report that to the PSP or any officer who was in that area looking for RG and for information? Was there someone in her business that might have been involved? [/*]Taking a leap here, if an educated one, you are referring to the woman who works in a shop that fronts the park. I know the name of it is known, and/or has been posted here, however I'm reticent to mention the shop out of respect for her. Her not wanting to be involved begins and ends with "the public" and the media. She fully cooperated with LE and some of us that have spoken with her. Her account of Ray was seeing him sitting on a park bench, as well as possibly with his car as it was potentially parked in the spots that border the park, and her shop. There was one other red Mini that was parked along those spots that was later identified, so who knows. The rest of it, seeing him coerced into a car isn't coming from her. Tbh, I'm not familiar with a sighting of anyone seeing him coerced into a car. Maybe it's the early hour. I'm usually at my best at 3:30... ;)

[Politigal]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Me too, but I could use some amalagam on my one tooth, it is irritating the heck out of my tongue, with it's sharp edge!! [/*]

I found a temporary remedy

2. My tooth broke and there is a sharp edge that is cutting my tongue. Is there anything I can do to protect my tongue from injury?

The best thing to do for a sharp or chipped edge of a tooth is to find a candle, heat it up until you can mold a small piece of the wax. Place the piece of wax on the broken tooth to protect your tongue and cheek and then call the office.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by logicworks
7) Down at Shickellamy Park in the Mini: IIRC, d2d's dad heard a sighting report on news.

9) In the SOS parking lot, RG seen getting into another vehicle. [/*]7. I don't recall a Shickellamy sighting. Any additional info? If it made it all the way to D2D's Dad's tv, it must have been more notable than I recall.

Also, I can't find anything on 9.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Hi CB, Did you get any info from the information you received the other day? I was searching the area in different newspapers in that area but only one drug bust stood out.

What all newspapers are in your area and what was the name given to you? [/*]
I didn't find anything that stood out but I will keep trying. On a privy note its a system go for it.;) Keep your fingers crossed and don't step on any cracks lol.-or you know the saying lol.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


GOOD Question SJ!! Now JJ your saying only 2 ADA's was out? SS and MS that's all? I really need to know this, it's important. [/*]

No, I've said that those two were out, at least. So could others.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
7. I don't recall a Shickellamy sighting. Any additional info? If it made it all the way to D2D's Dad's tv, it must have been more notable than I recall.

Also, I can't find anything on 9. [/*]

9 is from the Altoona Mirror story of, I think of 6/5/05, related to Baron's visit. It also refers to a previously published story.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
7. I don't recall a Shickellamy sighting. Any additional info? If it made it all the way to D2D's Dad's tv, it must have been more notable than I recall.

Also, I can't find anything on 9. [/*]
I think she meant on the HE show when Shawn Weaver released a detail that RG was spotted at the S Park.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, I've said that those two were out, at least. So could others. [/*]

THX JJ! So the possibility remains open that more could of been off or even a part of the day off like a half day. This is so utterly important for me to know. This is one of those times I wish I was LE. :cuss:

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
9 is from the Altoona Mirror story of, I think of 6/5/05, related to Baron's visit. It also refers to a previously published story. [/*]Gotcha...

With all due respect to one's beliefs, it would be great if people could separate possible witness sightings from "visions". Sure, you can clearly question the validity of witness accounts as much as you can a psychics, but let's not go overboard and merge the info with psychic visions (especially those that have shown to change to suit her media needs).

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
THX JJ! So the possibility remains open that more could of been off or even a part of the day off like a half day. This is so utterly important for me to know. This is one of those times I wish I was LE. :cuss: [/*]Could you define "in the office"?

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

I think she meant on the HE show when Shawn Weaver released a detail that RG was spotted at the S Park. [/*]RG or a Red Mini Cooper?

[Cloudbuster]

Okay I meant in the courthouse offices. Im trying to see who all was off even if they took a half a day off or left even early. If one particular person was off or even gone a half day it will prove something Im looking at. It is valuable for possible evidence. It also will tell me sequences of events unfolding.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
RG or a Red Mini Cooper? [/*]

I thought she meant Ray. I could be wrong though.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Okay I meant in the courthouse offices. Im trying to see who all was off even if they took a half a day off or left even early. If one particular person was off or even gone a half day it will prove something Im looking at. It is valuable for possible evidence. It also will tell me sequences of events unfolding. [/*]To be more specific, I bring this up because quite a bit of work time is not actually spent in the office.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Okay I meant in the courthouse offices. Im trying to see who all was off even if they took a half a day off or left even early. If one particular person was off or even gone a half day it will prove something Im looking at. It is valuable for possible evidence. It also will tell me sequences of events unfolding. [/*]

The ADA's have been listed before on the board

J Karen Arnold
Mark Smith
Stephen Sloane
Karen Kuebler
Nate Boob
Lance Marshall


Do we really know if anyone was out that Friday other than Sloane?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
7. I don't recall a Shickellamy sighting. Any additional info? If it made it all the way to D2D's Dad's tv, it must have been more notable than I recall.

Also, I can't find anything on 9. [/*]

I remember hearing about it too, even before I was posting or reading on the forum. Maybe on one of the TV News stations?

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
To be more specific, I bring this up because quite a bit of work time is not actually spent in the office. [/*]

Okay now that will make things harder for me. I still need to find out though. THX!

Pgal thanks for the list. There's one name I wasn't aware of. Crap now it requires more research lol.

Law wise I can't go where I'd like to. Only LE could maybe.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Okay now that will make things harder for me. [/*]I have a knack for that...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Gotcha...

With all due respect to one's beliefs, it would be great if people could separate possible witness sightings from "visions". Sure, you can clearly question the validity of witness accounts as much as you can a psychics, but let's not go overboard and merge the info with psychic visions (especially those that have shown to change to suit her media needs). [/*]

Just to crystal clear, the Mirror story indicated that a witness saw RFG entering a car (which is inclusive of the Mini), and indicated that the report had been previously published.

In Baron's case, she could have read the account before giving her vision.

And in all fairness to Baron, had I chosen to pass myself off as "J. J. the Psychic," I'm pretty sure that I could have convinced half the posters of my "mystical" abilities, just by doing good research.

[tonyGricar]

This has little to do with Ray's case, but since the subject has come up before, I thought I'd post it. For those of you following the intrepid Steve Fossett's case, yesterday he was declared legally dead... after 6 months. His wife actually filed after 3 months. I don't know if I've posted it on here before, but we've been aware that the 7 year thing is clearly not a hard and fast rule. 6 months has the "fast" part of that covered it seems.

As I've said before, we have no intention of doing this. Just thought it was somewhat relevant.

From the Chicago Tribune:
After a two-hour hearing, Circuit Judge Jeffrey Malak agreed with witnesses who said Fossett had no reason to disappear intentionally and probably died Sept. 3, the day he disappeared.
"I believe the evidence is more than sufficient," he said.
Fossett's wife, Peggy, and lawyers for his estate filed a petition in November seeking to have him declared dead. No one opposed the request.
Because Fossett's body hasn't been found, his wife's lawyers presented evidence to overcome the legal rule that people missing for fewer than seven years are presumed to be alive.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks




While we can call what the psychic claims to see a 'vision', it becomes MORE than a vision when a member of LE, in the news, confirms the vision 'matched an earlier report'.

"Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said Baron's description of a tan or brown vehicle following a Mini Cooper like the one Gricar drove along Route 192 on April 15 - the day he vanished - ***meshes with earlier, unreleased witness reports to state police in Milton."***


Except, IIRC there were reports of the tan car on I-80 "following" a red Mini that were public before Baron's involvement.

I'm not sure about the "construction worker-type," but it's not too much of a stretch with a very general description.

It's a bit like the "mystery woman." It was out months before the story "broke."

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
9 is from the Altoona Mirror story of, I think of 6/5/05, related to Baron's visit. It also refers to a previously published story.

Just to [be] crystal clear, the Mirror story indicated that a witness saw RFG entering a car (which is inclusive of the Mini), and indicated that the report had been previously published. In Baron's case, she could have read the account before giving her vision.

And in all fairness to Baron, had I chosen to pass myself off as "J. J. the Psychic," I'm pretty sure that I could have convinced half the posters of my "mystical" abilities, just by doing good research. MOO - If you are referring to "Psychic's Leads Investigated" (distributed by PRWEB, dated 6/5/05), I would point out, just to be absolutely crystal clear, that:
1. PRWEB is not 'The Altoona Mirror', or a news-writing agency.
http://www.prweb.com/about.php
2. Even if an Altoona Mirror staff writer wrote this piece, it has, to my knowledge, not appeared in that newspaper, or anywhere but PRWEB.
3. In the piece, the psychic, CB, related "seeing" a car following the Mini, someone leaning into the passenger side of the Mini while smoking a cigarette, and RG being coerced into the trailing car.
4. Nowhere in the piece is there an indication that there was any police report of someone witnessing RG getting into another car.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by logicworks
With all due respect to we, the public, who have been fed information via the news, incidents were validated as being more than a 'vision' by a psychic,confirmed by a member of LE, the lead detective who stated the 'visions' matched actual reported sightings. [/*]I've noticed an infusion of content that is not coming from any media corroboration, which was my lone point. People blur the lines between what they've read here, rumors, reported accounts, and whatever may have come out of the "Lead Officer's" mouth.

My apologies if you were offended. I'm sure there's a theorem relating to offense always occuring when anything begins "With all due respect...". :D

[Politigal]

happy Saturday

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - If you are referring to "Psychic's Leads Investigated" (distributed by PRWEB, dated 6/5/05), I would point out, just to be absolutely crystal clear, that:
1. PRWEB is not 'The Altoona Mirror', or a news-writing agency.
http://www.prweb.com/about.php
2. Even if an Altoona Mirror staff writer wrote this piece, it has, to my knowledge, not appeared in that newspaper, or anywhere but PRWEB.[/*]That was a classic as well. That reporter really got worked by her, plain and simple. I was privy to much of that, via both parties, and I saw how wrong it was going to go. Goading a reporter, who's newspaper didn't have a website, into publishing via a Press Release website (she kindly walked him through every step) was marketing genius on her part, although her non-HE-related pieces often ironically end up in the Entertainment category of ArriveNet PR Service. He was the only reporter actually interested in running with the psychic angle, so she did what she could to increase her "credibility".

In general, if you notice an article that doesn't have an attribution to it, it's likely self-generated. PRweb and ArriveNet are two of the major players in this space. The psychic has her share of those "articles" as well.

Someday I'll tell you all why I found it so amusing that she was upset by the existence of BillyWahoo, overall credibility, and why I wonder how much she pulled from LE for her visions.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by logicworks
The solution is simple......a list of actual sightings that were deemed credible by LE, which we can honestly base our conclusions on.
It's not like the list being held close to the chest seems to have brought any answers. Release them and let the public help. Never know......it could jog someone's memory somewhere.
Otherwise, we are left to 'muddle' in half-truths followed by cameras, lights, with NO action.
JMO [/*]Can't argue with this. I think as we are seeing with "actually a Detective" Rickard, more transparency, a concise-as-can-be timeline, etc are possibly becoming more of a reality. Ongoing, I'd be surprised if you ever hear anything that has to do with psychic involvement, which should clear the air of what's actually been turned up by LE.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Can't argue with this. I think as we are seeing with "actually a Detective" Rickard, more transparency, a concise-as-can-be timeline, etc are possibly becoming more of a reality. Ongoing, I'd be surprised if you ever hear anything that has to do with psychic involvement, which should clear the air of what's actually been turned up by LE. [/*]

Do you know of any plans by Rickard to make a new - public - push for information on this case? Surely the possibility of foul play/homicide is being looked at more closely than before.

It sure would be nice if police held a press conference to lay out *true* facts of the case.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
That was a classic as well. That reporter really got worked by her, plain and simple. I was privy to much of that, via both parties, and I saw how wrong it was going to go. Goading a reporter, who's newspaper didn't have a website, into publishing via a Press Release website (she kindly walked him through every step) was marketing genius on her part, although her non-HE-related pieces often ironically end up in the Entertainment category of ArriveNet PR Service. He was the only reporter actually interested in running with the psychic angle, so she did what she could to increase her "credibility".

In general, if you notice an article that doesn't have an attribution to it, it's likely self-generated. PRweb and ArriveNet are two of the major players in this space. The psychic has her share of those "articles" as well.

Someday I'll tell you all why I found it so amusing that she was upset by the existence of BillyWahoo, overall credibility, and why I wonder how much she pulled from LE for her visions. Suggested chapter title for your book, if you do write one someday: "The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree".

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Suggested chapter title for your book, if you do write one someday: "The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree". [/*]Funny you should mention than, although you're kinder and less blunt that I on that title. As certain "chapters" have occurred, I've jokingly come up with names for them. She's got one, as does the Runaway Bride who stole weeks worth of coverage from legitimate cases, and a few others.

Stop by the Gamble when I'm in town or the tailgate...

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Funny you should mention than, although you're kinder and less blunt that I on that title. As certain "chapters" have occurred, I've jokingly come up with names for them. She's got one, as does the Runaway Bride who stole weeks worth of coverage from legitimate cases, and a few others.

Stop by the Gamble when I'm in town or the tailgate... Give me the particulars and I just might take you up on that. Or maybe I should just come knocking at your door sometime, LOL!

I was thinking of posting about the exploits of profilergirl. But you are starting to type like J.J. So I will save that for another time.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



My purpose in creating the list was to point to all that has come out to we, the public, as 'sightings', whether it be in the newspaper, tv, or posting boards. Some choose to call them credible. I personally do not, but jmo.


The credibility of the witnesses depends on a number of things. I generally give any single witness a relatively low chance of being perfectly accurate. That changes if the witness had an extended sighting, or knew the person before the sighting. It also changes on the number of the witnesses and if the we're talking about the being generally accurate or accurate in a very specific detail.


With all due respect, I DO respect anyone who is willing to clear up any 'mistakings' which has occurred as the result of information previously presented to us .......:)
JMO [/*]

I do agree with that, provided the new information is accurate.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks <Snips>
My purpose in creating the list was to point to all that has come out to we, the public, as 'sightings', whether it be in the newspaper, tv, or posting boards. Some choose to call them credible. I personally do not, but jmo.

With all due respect, I DO respect anyone who is willing to clear up any 'mistakings' which has occurred as the result of information previously presented to us .......:) JMO Not speaking for TG here, but a major problem (setting aside my own opinion of journalism, in general) seems to be the "mistakements" (© TG) by officials...of which JKA and others (most recently PB) have made us aware. One would hope this trend continues (if the problem is real, and pervasive)...and, if it does, that it will inure to the benefit of solving this mystery. MOO

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Give me the particulars and I just might take you up on that. Or maybe I should just come knocking at your door sometime, LOL!

I was thinking of posting about the exploits of profilergirl. But you are starting to type like J.J. So I will save that for another time. [/*]Show up at my door? Well that would just be creepy... ;) (picturing the eTrade SuperBowl baby and clown commercial)

Actually, for those of you who haven't heard the gossip, I recently had a reporter show up at my door without any prior contact over the last 2+ years, ostensibly with the notion that I might be harboring Ray. This was made evident by the fact that 1.) I live 220 miles from his paper. 2.) I live in the middle of nowhere 3.) He flashed a photo of Ray to people in my marina bar asking if they've seen him in there.

I'll guess that with me "starting to type like JJ", you are referring to the prolificacy and not typos. If the latter, some of my English professors might be the next people to show up at my door unannounced.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
But you are starting to type like J.J. So I will save that for another time. [/*]LOL, now I see what you are referring to. At first I thought you responded before I could fix a "that" vs " than" typo, but I realize now that when I edited the post, I switched the wrong one. This pains me more than you could ever know. So goes the flow of the Brain to Fingers Disconnect. Internet posting has to be exacerbating this phenomenon.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
LOL, now I see what you are referring to. At first I thought you responded before I could fix a "that" vs " than" typo, but I realize now that when I edited the post, I switched the wrong one. This pains me more than you could ever know. So goes the flow of the Brain to Fingers Disconnect. Internet posting has to be exacerbating this phenomenon. [/*]

I'm notorious for doing that, much more so on another site. :)

I actually did that in a published paper once, but the editor made a note of it. :)

[Cinderella]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tonyGricar
Show up at my door? Well that would just be creepy... ;) (picturing the eTrade SuperBowl baby and clown commercial)

Actually, for those of you who haven't heard the gossip, I recently had a reporter show up at my door without any prior contact over the last 2+ years, ostensibly with the notion that I might be harboring Ray. This was made evident by the fact that 1.) I live 220 miles from his paper. 2.) I live in the middle of nowhere 3.) He flashed a photo of Ray to people in my marina bar asking if they've seen him in there.
-----------------
SNIP


I would have loved to have been there and heard the conversation. I could just picture it.

[J. J. in Phila]

LW, you've entirely missed the point.

If LE can determine if the driver did not[/i] wear gloves or that the Mini [u]was not wiped down, that would tell us something very important. Whomever was the last driver was, he didn't care if he left prints.

Now, my question is, can LE determine that?

[Cinderella]

As you know I hear lots of rumors. I have lived in this area all but 3 years of my life. I come from a large family in a large family so if you want some information, you just find someone that would know or friends of friends.

There are two questions that I would like answered about this case. Actually more, but I will start with two.

1. Why did Patty want her Mini back so soon from Lewisburg over State Police objections?

2. Why does she get angry with everyone that that tells things that they know about Ray?


I really feel that this is a woman scorned. I feel that Ray was depressed at home because he was tired of PF. He might have met someone else. I think that she was putting the pressure on Ray about retirement and probably marriage. I don't buy her story to me about her always wanting to work in the DA's office. I think that she relocated there so she could keep an eye on Ray. I bet that she was jealous of Lara. It was probably her idea to get the vanity license plates. After all she had him pay off her home and buy her a car. I just wonder if she suspected that Ray was with a woman. Did she report him missing to show him a lesson? After all what PF wants she gets. I think the Miss Bellefonte Title has gone to her head. That is probably the reason that the mystery woman wasn't brought up before it was. Does PF rule everybody? Not me. BTW, I will drive by her house any time of the night or day that I choose. It is a wonder that it isn't called the P Fo Road.

BTW, PF doesn't rule my world.

WHY PATTY WHY?

[Politigal]

uh oh....

Tony can't be far behind


:chicken:

[Cinderella]

Like I said, PF doesn't rule my life. I am searching for Ray Gricar. Patty just gets in the way.

[Cinderella]

The real Tony can't say much to me as he would have to admit that I am right. :chicken:

I hope that PF doesn't control him.

Hope that you don't mind Pgal.

__________________
Consider *who* had access to Patty Fornicola's upstairs closet where the laptop was kept....

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella

[quote]I think that she was putting the pressure on Ray about retirement and probably marriage.

The retirement plans were announced more than a year before.


I don't buy her story to me about her always wanting to work in the DA's office. I think that she relocated there so she could keep an eye on Ray.


Except it took a while to fill that position. It doesn't sound like she was immediately jumping on it, plus RFG would still be out of the office, either in court or at meetings.


I bet that she was jealous of Lara. It was probably her idea to get the vanity license plates. After all she had him pay off her home and buy her a car. I just wonder if she suspected that Ray was with a woman.


Zero evidence of a major anything with LG, since she was about 2500 miles away. I don't recall her "having" RFG pay the mortgage or buy her a car that he drove. Also, it's been reported that license plate was his idea.


Did she report him missing to show him a lesson?


I have the feeling that she reported him missing because he was missing.


After all what PF wants she gets. I think the Miss Bellefonte Title has gone to her head.


What title? I'm sure that she'd like her old job, and salary, back.



BTW, PF doesn't rule my world.

WHY PATTY WHY? [/*]

Nor mine, nor the investigation.

[Cinderella]

J. J.,

You are full of it. The timeline is PF's. Don't give me your other sad excuses.

[Cinderella]

There is no title. It is just that she thinks that she is it. Patty can put on a very good face.

[Cinderella]

If she wanted to really find Ray, why did she want her "Mini" back so fast over the objections of the PSP? barf

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal <Snip>
uh oh.... Very sad. But actually, I would rather see the "venting" done here.

[Cinderella]

I agree it is very sad that PF wanted her "Mini" back so soon.
I agree it is sad. barf

[Cinderella]

Why shouldn't some one say what is on their mind. Her stories about the moring of April 15 have been twisted since day one.

Her voice on camera is like she has no emotion.

Wouldn't you think that she would want Ray found?

The timeline is hers.

She tells people what they can and can't do apparently from the mystery woman story not coming out for a while since they didn't want to hurt PF.

What is she hiding?

[Cinderella]

What if Ray just happened to go someplace and come back and get into his car. Why would she not leave the car there until the PSP were through with it? Wouldn't a soul mate want all the information on what happened to their soul mate? barf

[Serendipitous1]

Cinderella, let's talk. PM me...pretty please.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella
What if Ray just happened to go someplace and come back and get into his car. Why would she not leave the car there until the PSP were through with it? Wouldn't a soul mate want all the information on what happened to their soul mate? barf [/*]

Where did you hear that PF got the car over PSP's objections?

[Cinderella]

From a very close source. I will not give out my source. I have lots of people that I talk to and lots of relatives and friends. Believe me this is the truth.

I don't know if Tony would know or not. Even if he did know, he might not want to answer the question.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cinderella
As you know I hear lots of rumors. I have lived in this area all but 3 years of my life. I come from a large family in a large family so if you want some information, you just find someone that would know or friends of friends.

There are two questions that I would like answered about this case. Actually more, but I will start with two.

1. Why did Patty want her Mini back so soon from Lewisburg over State Police objections?

2. Why does she get angry with everyone that that tells things that they know about Ray?


I really feel that this is a woman scorned. I feel that Ray was depressed at home because he was tired of PF. He might have met someone else. I think that she was putting the pressure on Ray about retirement and probably marriage. I don't buy her story to me about her always wanting to work in the DA's office. I think that she relocated there so she could keep an eye on Ray. I bet that she was jealous of Lara. It was probably her idea to get the vanity license plates. After all she had him pay off her home and buy her a car. I just wonder if she suspected that Ray was with a woman. Did she report him missing to show him a lesson? After all what PF wants she gets. I think the Miss Bellefonte Title has gone to her head. That is probably the reason that the mystery woman wasn't brought up before it was. Does PF rule everybody? Not me. BTW, I will drive by her house any time of the night or day that I choose. It is a wonder that it isn't called the P Fo Road.

BTW, PF doesn't rule my world.

WHY PATTY WHY? [/*]Nah... you're even less worth my time than I thought.

Feelings on PF aside, I defy any reader here to tell me the above post isn't disturbing on more than one level. This is what people in our situation end up with. Pathetic...

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal
uh oh....

Tony can't be far behind[/*]If your a fan of the HBO series "The Wire", I'm sure you can hear me whistling "The Farmer in the Dell".

[Cinderella]

First of all it is the truth. Tony why don't you go ask the PSP? Trying to make me look bad, when I wasn't the one the wanted my "Mini" back so soon. Better yet, why not ask PF.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cinderella
If she wanted to really find Ray, why did she want her "Mini" back so fast over the objections of the PSP? barf [/*]100% FALSE.

[Cinderella]

I have always wondered who used tonyGricar. Is it the real Tony or is it PF that likes to control everything?

Will the Real Tony Gricar, please stand up!

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
100% FALSE. [/*]



Did you ask the PSP? Maybe you weren't there when she said she wanted her "Mini".

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal


Where did you hear that PF got the car over PSP's objections? [/*]Her past "sources" have also told her that Ray actually is living in an apartment in Bellefonte and she had proof.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
If your a fan of the HBO series "The Wire", I'm sure you can hear me whistling "The Farmer in the Dell". [/*]

is that gun powder I smell? :tongue:

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal
is that gun powder I smell? :tongue: [/*]It smells like someone unstable enough to be trying to either get the board shut down or to be banned.

Omar comin'...

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Her past "sources" have also told her that Ray actually is living in an apartment in Bellefonte and she had proof. [/*]


That is not true. I don't know where you got there but that is a downright lie. I never ever said that. Bring me a stack of Bibles and I will swear on them.

Cloudbuster knows me, ask her if I ever said anything like that.

I don't know who your source is, but whoever is wrong.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
It smells like someone unstable enough to be trying to either get the board shut down or to be banned.

Omar comin'... [/*]


Know it is the truth and you just don't want to admit to it. I really actually think that your are Patty and not Tony at all.

[Cinderella]

You know when the truth comes out, it is ridiculed alot. Go ask the PSP.

[Cinderella]

I will say this. This case will be solved. I have all the faith in Det. Rickard. It will all come out.

If you don't believe me about the Mini, go ask the PSP. We have all blamed the police for the mini being taken away so soon. It wasn't their choice.

[Politigal]

On another note...

I had posted this on our regular board, and I've been posting on the Amber Alerts & Missing People thread about the case of John Glasgow in Arkansas, who disappeared under extremely similar circumstances as RG. It just boggles my mind at the similiarities in the cases.

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2008/02/glasgow_case_new_details.aspx

Glasgow's Volvo has been forensically examined, and found to contain what Welch categorized as "no fingerprints," indicating that it may have been wiped down before being parked on Petit Jean.

Trained search dogs found no trace of Glasgow's scent leading away from his parked car, or anywhere else on the mountain.

In addition to Glasgow's cell phone and laptop computer, his bank card was found in the car. His wallet and car keys have not been found.

Glasgow reportedly left his home early and didn't show up for work

Gricar reportedly left his home & didn't go into work

Glasgow's cellphone pinged some distance away

Gricar's phone reportedly placed a call from some distance away

No one saw Glasgow leaving or going to the mountain

No one saw (verifiably) Gricar leaving his home or going to Lewisburg

Glasgow's car was abandoned with no physical evidence or prints found inside.

Gricar's car was found abandoned with no physical evidence or prints found inside.

Scent dogs couldn't find Glasgow's scent leading away from his car.

Scent dogs couldn't find Gricar's scent leading away from his car.

Glasgow's wife said he had been stressed about work preceding the disappearance.

Gricar's girlfriend said he had been working hard & taking more naps, and others said he had been depressed.

IMO, I believe very strongly that it could be a copy-cat case. No one responded about my post before, and I thought I'd try again....

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cinderella
That is not true. I don't know where you got there but that is a downright lie. I never ever said that. Bring me a stack of Bibles and I will swear on them.

I don't know who your source is, but whoever is wrong. [/*]Uh... you were the source. On this board even.

Whoa...

I'm done with you. You can keep with your spam-like tactics, but the only thing I'll be doing is correct your "facts".

[Politigal]

Tony - please see my post about John Glasgow above yours

ty

[Cinderella]

I don't care if you are done with me or not. The truth is the truth. Maybe no one told you. I never ever said about Ray being in an apartment. I don't know where you got that. I never posted such a thing.

I don't even think that you are the real Tony. I still say that you are PF who wants to control everything. So don't respond to my posts anymore or are you going to try to get me banned for speaking the truth?

You like to get me banned when you don't like what I have to say. I thought this was an opinion board. Maybe somene should ask LE, or the PSP about this question.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal
On another note...

I had posted this on our regular board, and I've been posting on the Amber Alerts & Missing People thread about the case of John Glasgow in Arkansas, who disappeared under extremely similar circumstances as RG. It just boggles my mind at the similiarities in the cases.
[/*]Nah... there's more book sales in comparing Ray's case to Luna. ;)

Striking similarities, though. I'll check into it a bit more and then maybe make a phone call.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Uh... you were the source. On this board even.

Whoa...

I'm done with you. You can keep with your spam-like tactics, but the only thing I'll be doing is correct your "facts". [/*]


I know what I am talking about. Worry about correcting your own facts. Do ask LE or PSP though, it might make you feel better.

[Cinderella]

You didn't mention my other source who saw Ray the morning of April 15. You only want to make stories that I never said. You must have me confused with someone else.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Nah... there's more book sales in comparing Ray's case to Luna. ;)

Striking similarities, though. I'll check into it a bit more and then maybe make a phone call. [/*]

I've contacted 4 or 5 of Glasgow's family members and told them about RG's case via email. No response yet.

[Serendipitous1]

Happy Sunday, everyone!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J.,

You are full of it. The timeline is PF's. Don't give me your other sad excuses. [/*]

According to what RFG said, he was planning retirement since 2001. I don't think they were together in 2001. It is not a "sad excuse" but the apility to read a calender. :rolleyes:

Likewise, PEF did not create the vacancy that she ended up filling.

Now, I want you to pay very close attention to the answer of this question:

I have not heard anything that PEF want the car back quickly after it was taken to the PSP Barracks.

I will not parse those words, but anything that I have heard regarding the PSP and the Mini does NOT involve PEF wanting quickly returned after the Mini was taken to the PSP Barracks. Perhaps she did, but that is not the story I have heard.

Now that said, based on her emotional statement at the press conference (and and other things), I strongly suspect that after the Mini was found, PEF thought that walkaway was a likely possibility.

As for her being "angry," so far as I know, I have heard her being described as "sad" about it, but not angry.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Happy Sunday, everyone! [/*]

darn it's gettin' close to Monday....:(

[Cinderella]

That might not be the story that you heard, but it is true. Anyone can check it out.

Tony is not saying anything about my other source seeing Ray that morning.

[Cinderella]

I would really love to know if that is the real Tony Gricar.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella




Did you ask the PSP? Maybe you weren't there when she said she wanted her "Mini". [/*]

Cind, I've heard exactly the same thing. There has been nothing about her wanting the Mini back quickly after it had been taken to the PSP Barracks.

[Cinderella]

J. J. maybe you ought to check again. Usually they don't tell the public little things that go on behind the scenes.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J. maybe you ought to check again. Usually they don't tell the public little things that go on behind the scenes. [/*]

I did, and my source isn't public.

Now, I'll note a couple of things that are not specifically directed at you. We've had posters claim that PEF planted the thought of suicide in the minds of LE; we found out that the first mention of suicide seems to have come from TG and CG, which was understandable. Then we have had posters say that PEF raised the Cleveland trip, only to find out that it was Sloane.

This is another example.

The only thing that will say in addition that what I know of PEF's action on 4/15-4/18/05 that hasn't been made public point away from her being involved in murder.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


...The only thing that will say in addition that what I know of PEF's action on 4/15-4/18/05 that hasn't been made public point away from her being involved in murder. [/*]

Hopefully, PF was not your source as far as what points away.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Happy Sunday, everyone! [/*]It's a bad sign when the wind is blowing from the East and West, no?

Someone... anyone... please end this Friday. Longest one on record.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
It's a bad sign when the wind is blowing from the East and West, no?

Someone... anyone... please end this Friday. Longest one on record. [/*]

I have a birthday in 1 week.....*that* will be a long one....:hat:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Hopefully, PF was not your source as far as what points away. [/*]

I believe that I have indicated, and continue to indicate, that I have never met nor communicated with PEF. I did speak to TG by phone once, as have numerous posters, with greater frequency.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal


Hopefully, PF was not your source as far as what points away. [/*]I typically don't jump into the JJ stuff, but I'll butt in and confirm that she's not his source.

Regards,

tonygricar or Tony Gricar :rolleyes:

[Politigal]

I have always wanted to ask .....

Does Lara Gricar read the board at all?

And if not, why?

[tonyGricar]

Raise your hand if you've already done the following:

Show printable version / File Save As / Web Archive

:seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
On another note...

I had posted this on our regular board, and I've been posting on the Amber Alerts & Missing People thread about the case of John Glasgow in Arkansas, who disappeared under extremely similar circumstances as RG. It just boggles my mind at the similiarities in the cases.

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2008/02/glasgow_case_new_details.aspx



I think that there are many difference including the car in the Glasgow case appears to have been wiped down and no scent was found.

Also, I'm not clear that he wasn't suppose to be at work that day and there was no cell call that I could see.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I think that there are many difference including the car in the Glasgow case appears to have been wiped down and no scent was found.

Also, I'm not clear that he wasn't suppose to be at work that day and there was no cell call that I could see. [/*]

In Glasgow's case, there was no evidence it was wiped down -- there were just no prints found.

And the scent is the same as in RG's case.....nothing away from where the vehicle was.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


In Glasgow's case, there was no evidence it was wiped down -- there were just no prints found.



Not according to the link you've posted. There were prints in the Mini, just not readable prints. There were no prints in the Glasgow case.


And the scent is the same as in RG's case.....nothing away from where the vehicle was. [/*]

Not according to the link you've posted. LE didn't find Glasgow's scent, period. LE did find RFG's scent in Lewisburg.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal
I have always wanted to ask .....

Does Lara Gricar read the board at all?

And if not, why? [/*]No. I don't think she's ever visited. She's aware of it's existence due to questions she's received. Ya'know the usual... "Do you know who Billy Wahoo is?".

As for why? Tonight's a pretty good example. And she is extremely busy. Was finishing her degree when this started and now is working with the grown-ups, and very long hours. Add with the obscene commute that she has, and the fact that she spends every free hour, year round, in the mountains or on the water and it sums up to not being home, let alone online. When warranted, we have discussed matters arising from here.

Honestly, to be involved in a case, and to visit these types of forums, it takes a certain masochistic level to be here. If this were a "share your grief" board, I could see it, but this is a crime board. Crime boards, inherent to their nature, create alot of theories which can be painful, or in my case, angering, to read. Count your blessings that you just have me. She wouldn't use the kid gloves like I do... ;)

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Not according to the link you've posted. There were prints in the Mini, just not readable prints. There were no prints in the Glasgow case.



Not according to the link you've posted. LE didn't find Glasgow's scent, period. LE did find RFG's scent in Lewisburg. [/*]

No, the link said they didn't find Glasgow's scent leading *away* from his parked car.....

And where were the prints in the Mini that were not readable?

Do *not* include the water bottle. That is not the Mini.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
It's a bad sign when the wind is blowing from the East and West, no? Someone... anyone... please end this Friday. Longest one on record. Could be a cosmic shift in the continuum...or a byproduct of global warming. Who you gonna call?

[J. J. in Phila]

Tony, I may be a bit confused here, but isn't the point of having a family spokesman to deal with the public and press?

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
No. I don't think she's ever visited. She's aware of it's existence due to questions she's received. Ya'know the usual... "Do you know who Billy Wahoo is?".

As for why? Tonight's a pretty good example. And she is extremely busy. Was finishing her degree when this started and now is working with the grown-ups, and very long hours. Add with the obscene commute that she has, and the fact that she spends every free hour, year round, in the mountains or on the water and it sums up to not being home, let alone online. When warranted, we have discussed matters arising from here.

Honestly, to be involved in a case, and to visit these types of forums, it takes a certain masochistic level to be here. If this were a "share your grief" board, I could see it, but this is a crime board. Crime boards, inherent to their nature, create alot of theories which can be painful, or in my case, angering, to read. Count your blessings that you just have me. She wouldn't use the kid gloves like I do... ;) [/*]

Thx for the explanation

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Her past "sources" have also told her that Ray actually is living in an apartment in Bellefonte and she had proof. [/*]


Tony, I would like you to show me that I said that. Even though I deleted some things, It should show up in someone elses file.
You are wrong.

Tell them about the source for seeing Ray the morning of April 15. Was my source wrong. Oh yeah, it doesn't fit in the timeline of PF. barf

But then again, if you are PF you wouldn't know about that source. I don't think that you have any idea about that source.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


No, the link said they didn't find Glasgow's scent leading *away* from his parked car.....


Trained search dogs found no trace of Glasgow's scent leading away from his parked car, or anywhere else on the mountain.

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2008/02/glasgow_case_new_details.aspx

I hate to explain this to you, but there was no scent on the entire mountain. :rolleyes:



And where were the prints in the Mini that were not readable?



Two other prints were lifted, one from the exterior door handle on the driver's side and the second from a water bottle found inside the Mini. But they did not have enough ridge characteristics be be identified, the lab report indicated. So there were no identifiable prints found inside the Mini Cooper. What prints were there were not good enough in quality to be matched to anyone.
Pete Bosak 2/11/08

Now, if you want to exclude the entire car, we would have no prints.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Tony, I may be a bit confused here, but isn't the point of having a family spokesman to deal with the public and press? [/*]Yeah, and see where it got me? The press is easy. It's you folks... :D

I'm just glad the guy who showed up at my door last week pulled out a pen and not a 12 guage. Some of the emails, calls, and personal encounters I've had in Bellefonte (unbalanced individuals that the BPD is aware of) I've received make me quite happy with that outcome.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella



Tony, I would like you to show me that I said that. Even though I deleted some things, It should show up in someone elses file.
You are wrong.

Tell them about the source for seeing Ray the morning of April 15. Was my source wrong. Oh yeah, it doesn't fit in the timeline of PF. barf

But then again, if you are PF you wouldn't know about that source. I don't think that you have any idea about that source. [/*]

Actually, IIRC, Tony posted once before about the apartment thing, and he claimed that you had sent him emails about that. I don't think it was ever anything posted on the board.

[Politigal]

I found Tony's post about it:

tonyGricar
Member

Registered: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 613
If anyone wants off-line copies of emails from a certain poster, illustrative of wide-ranging and "interesting" behaviours, I'd be more than willing to accomodate you. Posting the above again really makes little sense to me, given the one-sidedness of it. Y'know... considering the person requested all of their posts to be deleted. But hey, apparently context means very little here.

I wonder if she, during her "investigation", stopped at the apartment she "knew for a fact Ray was living in" and that we (The Gricars) knew he was alive and we were complicit in scamming the great citizens of central PA. Add in some more "colorful" descriptors of the despicability of Ray and ourselves, and you've got yourselves some interesting reads. But, obviously the deletion key is a powerful one when things go awry.

Ironic that I'm posting this within a thread that also seems "like deja vous all over again".



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09-14-2007 11:28 AM

[Cinderella]

Well Tony lied because it was not me. I never said that. If I say something, I admit to saying it. He is totally wrong. I don't think that it is Tony on the board anyway. I think that I struck a nerve tonight with someone else.

[Cinderella]

I don't know why he or she is lying. But they are. I can ask anyone one the board if they have even see or that I even hinted at it.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I don't know why he or she is lying. But they are. I can ask anyone one the board if they have even see or that I even hinted at it. [/*]

maybe if you pm Tony you could ascertain the email addy that sent him the emails....

[Cinderella]

But Tony you will not talk about the witness that I gave to you, because you are not Tony and don't know anything about it. Prove me wrong. Tell me about the witness.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Politigal


maybe if you pm Tony you could ascertain the email addy that sent him the emails.... [/*]

I don't think that it is Tony that is posting on the board. I would like to see the e-mail but only if he has the right address. He might try to change the e-mail mail address. I wish that he would forward the e-mail to me and for him to copy it for himself.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella


I don't think that it is Tony that is posting on the board. I would like to see the e-mail but only if he has the right address. He might try to change the e-mail mail address. I wish that he would forward the e-mail to me and for him to copy it for himself. [/*]

It's Tony.hammer

[Cinderella]

Where did tonyGricar (she) get to?

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Politigal


No, the link said they didn't find Glasgow's scent leading *away* from his parked car.....

And where were the prints in the Mini that were not readable?

Do *not* include the water bottle. That is not the Mini. [/*]

bumping for JJ


the above post may have gotten lost in the "wind"

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


It's Tony.hammer [/*]


He didn't answer my question or know what I was talking about as far as the witness goes. It is not Tony. If it is Tony then let him confirm what I told him.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Trained search dogs found no trace of Glasgow's scent leading away from his parked car, or anywhere else on the mountain.

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2008/02/glasgow_case_new_details.aspx

I hate to explain this to you, but there was no scent on the entire mountain. :rolleyes:




Two other prints were lifted, one from the exterior door handle on the driver's side and the second from a water bottle found inside the Mini. But they did not have enough ridge characteristics be be identified, the lab report indicated. So there were no identifiable prints found inside the Mini Cooper. What prints were there were not good enough in quality to be matched to anyone.
Pete Bosak 2/11/08

Now, if you want to exclude the entire car, we would have no prints. [/*]

Bumping for P'gal.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Bumping for P'gal. [/*]

JJ - we were discussing prints on the *inside* of the car....and you can't include the water bottle...

Take the water bottle away and there were no prints found in RG's car.

And on Glasgow's scent.....

please re read.....

It says they didn't find his scent leading *away* from his car.

The word *away* is key.

[Politigal]

and for our listening pleasure on this strange night....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=be0j4PbrQOI

[Cinderella]

Where did she go?

[Cinderella]

I guess that my question will remain unanswered due to it not be the real Tony. I will not accept an answer tomorrow as someone could find out. Since they didn't know when I asked them, then I know that I was not chatting with Tony.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal
and for our listening pleasure on this strange night....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=be0j4PbrQOI [/*]Thanks for that. I'm a big fan of hers, but had never heard that version.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cinderella I don't know why he or she is lying. But they are. I can ask anyone one the board if they have even see or that I even hinted at it. What part of "The Ray Gricar Hoax ... Theory" thread, which you started, would you like read back to you?

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I guess that my question will remain unanswered due to it not be the real Tony. I will not accept an answer tomorrow as someone could find out. Since they didn't know when I asked them, then I know that I was not chatting with Tony. [/*]Jesus... so as to put everybody else out of their misery: What do you want confirmed? Your email? Which one? From the Videlia, Nadine, Puglover, or Sparrow email accounts? <Insert Joke Here on the Multiples> No, I have yet to speak to DH.

[Cinderella]

I want to see the e-mail that I sent you that he is in an apartment in Bellefonte. I never ever sent you an e-mail stating that.

Please check about the Mini with someone.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
What part of "The Ray Gricar Hoax ... Theory" thread, which you started, would you like read back to you? [/*]


I never stated that Ray was in an apartment in Bellefonte.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
What part of "The Ray Gricar Hoax ... Theory" thread, which you started, would you like read back to you? [/*]Picture me as Arnold Horshack trying to get Mr. Kotter's attention... Pick me! Pick me!

[Cinderella]

I have decided that I am leaving the board. I will not delete my posts. Maybe others can make fun of someone other than me.
Best Wishes for all.

[tonyGricar]

Yaaaawn...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


JJ - we were discussing prints on the *inside* of the car....and you can't include the water bottle...

Take the water bottle away and there were no prints found in RG's car.

And on Glasgow's scent.....

please re read.....

It says they didn't find his scent leading *away* from his car.

The word *away* is key. [/*]

P'gal, they indicated they didn't find Glasgow's scent any place on the mountain where the car was parked. You can re-read.

On the second part, apparently LE can tell if there was a wipe down, though I still have a question that they can tell if there could have been a gloved driver.

[ladyheartfixer]

good grief Charlie Brown! has the insanity ended...I have a headache from reading this board over the last 24 hours...is the week-end over yet?:punch:

[day2day]

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
good grief Charlie Brown! has the insanity ended...I have a headache from reading this board over the last 24 hours...is the week-end over yet?:punch: [/*]

It MUST be a full moon...hammer

[ladyheartfixer]

nope...full moon isn't til the 21st...already checked....

to get back on topic..sort of...did Ray like the full moon...(no jokes please...I am serious)

[Politigal]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
Hi, guys....I'm going to admit straight up that I'm new to this particular board. I have been over on another case and haven't seen this one until today. Just from reading a few posts, I can tell this is interesting.

Just wondered if someone here would post a couple links where I can read more about the background on this case. Then I will try to follow along the best I can until I learn more. Thanks!:) [/*]

the official family site is here

www.raygricar.com

and I've also created a site with lots of info here

http://politigal.googlepages.com/

and our regular discussion board is here

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=127

[day2day]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
Hi, guys....I'm going to admit straight up that I'm new to this particular board. I have been over on another case and haven't seen this one until today. Just from reading a few posts, I can tell this is interesting.

Just wondered if someone here would post a couple links where I can read more about the background on this case. Then I will try to follow along the best I can until I learn more. Thanks!:) [/*]

Hey sherry!
can't wait til you are all caught up and posting with us!!


**thanks pgal for posting the links!!:seeya:

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
Has anyone reported on what was found on the hard drive? [/*]The hard drive was damaged beyond recovery. The retrieval attempts were made by the FBI.

[tonyGricar]

An Opinion piece from today's CDT (sums up the rollercoaster rides pretty well):

======================
Sunday, Feb. 17, 2008
Waiting for word of the missing
Centre Daily Times
Heart rates increased, memories came flooding back and desperate attempts to get on with life stopped, frozen in time, when the announcement was made late last month: Human skeletal remains had been discovered in Bald Eagle State Park.

Thoughts immediately turned to the missing.

Who? Cindy Song? Brenda Condon? Ray Gricar?

continued ---> (http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/story/407978.html)
======================

[day2day]

Thanks for the link TG-but that made me very sad :(...

[day2day]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
I'm not a conspiracy theorists, per se, but do believe strange things happen everyday....stranger than anything most of us could imagine.
Seems to me like Gricar was either working on a discovery that was dangerous, or had made contacts that were suspicious.
Perhaps he arranged to meet someone there in Lewisburg?

What are others feelings about it? [/*]

I don't personally believe that Mr. Gricar was working on anything dangerous. I DO think thats what "certain people" want us to believe ...
I'm not convinced that Mr. Gricar was ever in Lewisburg.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
ummm...I'm really hesitant to ask but do you think the FBI is being truthful with all the info they have?

Do you think Gricar had information that others needed to quelch? Just thinking out loud...

Wow, this must be tough for the family because if you let your mind roam around trying to think of answers you could go crazy. [/*]I do, but for reasons other than what's typically reported on re: the various agencies involved. I have a few "back-channel" sources, at different levels in the hierachy, within the FBI that have been very helpful re: the case, and with certain realities of jurisdictional controls. I also have open communication with various other agencies and offices. The only time we've been steered wrong, that we know of, was at the local level. I've repeatedly called for a larger organization to take over, but we were assured the best, and correct, job was already being done. Clearly, that was not the case.

The FBI SSRA who heads that region has worked with, and known, Ray for many years. He's as shocked and baffled as the rest of us, but has been extremely helpful.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
ummm...I'm really hesitant to ask but do you think the FBI is being truthful with all the info they have?[/*]Btw, unless it's too personal of a detail (typically related to others involved outside of Ray or myself) or possibly detrimental to the investigation, I typically answer most questions. No need to be hesitant.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
So, tony, do you think that Ray's disappearance had anything to do with his job? That would be the most obvious connection in light of the computer, etc. Could it be related in some way to the drug bust just before he vanished?


Hi Sherry, and welcome to of asylu.., er, little community. ;)

If I can jump in, the drug bust was not being prosecuted by the Centre County DA's Office, but by the State Attorney General's Office. It really wasn't RFG's case.


It just seems so impossible for him not to be located considering how quickly he was reported missing, and all of the evidence that has been located, such as his car, hard drive, computer, etc.


I've not been critical of the actions of anyone there in the first 24 hours. RFG's girlfriend, PEF reported him missing within 13 hours of last contact (last contact being about 11:15 AM on 4/15). LE put out an APB and began a ground search in the area (about 20-40 miles from where the car was found) where the call came from on the next morning.


Another poster stated they believe that he was never at Lewisburg. Well, how coincidental would that be...that he told his girlfriend that he was on the highway headed in that direction where he often enjoyed going? If he never went there, then someone who knew him well would've been pretty smart to place all of these items there.

There are at least five witnesses that put RFG in Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05. The dogs detected his scent in the parking lot in Lewisburg, leading off about 20 yards from the car had been parked. Based on a combination of both, I'd say a 90% plus chance RFG was in Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05.

My first thoughts were suicide or murder and expected the body to be found, probably in the river within six weeks. I was quite wrong there.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
Thanks, JJ....I might think suicide, too, except things don't quite add up to me. Seems Gricar was reportedly acting strange or "not with it" at least a few weeks prior and then we have the computer from the closet....why would he take that?

Seems to me he'd make better "arrangements" if he intended to commit suicide, due to his closeness to his family--and the previous incident involving his brother.


I actually have looked at things like suicide note frequency and it doesn't happen in a majority of the cases.



I think anyone would admit it would be very unlikely that he is still alive since he has no money and has made no contact in all this time. If it wasn't suicide, who would be most likely to want him dead? [/*]

I think you are jumping to several conclusions that are not in evidence.

First, RFG did have an "interest" in some cases of voluntary walkaway.

Second, the money question has been raised. His assets seem, at least, to be must lower that would be indicated by his salary and expenses. It is a matter of public record that RFG earned, as DA, more than $100 K/year, and for several years didn't known huge expenses. It is quite possible that money is not an issue.

I actually give the odds at 43% walkaway, 42% murder, 15% suicide. That is actually the first time I've expressed a greater likelihood between murder and walkaway.

[gstickley]

Hi, Sherri:

Go to website: gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com

You'll find some good information there.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
I'm not a conspiracy theorists, per se, but do believe strange things happen everyday....stranger than anything most of us could imagine.
Seems to me like Gricar was either working on a discovery that was dangerous, or had made contacts that were suspicious.
Perhaps he arranged to meet someone there in Lewisburg?

What are others feelings about it? [/*]

Welcome Sherryh!! I believe with everything inside myself due to a tape that indicates words strangly given in my possession to include what you just wrote above. He stumbled on a name as indicated by a muddled and sometime clear voice. Appears to be some sorta voice phemonema a EVP if you will. I have tried to get the voice message out but you know it's the unknown, so who is really listening? lol no one. Can I expect anyone to? No cause I understand why. What am I supposed to make of such a occurence when it has names of this particular case in it? It had to come from somewhere. I believe it could solve this case.

Cind I wish you would stay! Maybe take a break and come back and rethink it all. Im not good with words but I hate losing you or anyone for that matter. We all don't have to like one another but the good book wants us to ALL get along. Yes this case can make anyone rip their hair out but we must refrain from it and keep our shared goals the same in finding RG. There are times Im upset but Im hanging in there anyways. Right about now I look weird cause of a strange tape but Im not leaving. You got to stand your ground and not be shaken and when your mad you go to your higher source and work it thru that way. In your favor I know you never said about a RG being at a apt in Bellefonte. On TG's favor he is having a hard enough time. I think you and he and we are all sometimes sleep deprived ect and it's all due to our common goal. That is what we must keep in mind. So please take a break and come back. It's sunday today church is dismissed. Amen. ;)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
JJ, pretty interesting odds. Guess I assumed that because his bank accounts had not been touched that he would not have access to money.
Of course, he could have used cash that he hid or stashed it away somewhere else in another name....it just seems like the FBI would find some kind of trail if that was the case. Of course, I've never researched "walkaway" cases but that is very interesting. Do know how many "successes" there are?


There have been a few, especially of people in positions of responsibility, and with no other problems.

One was the case of the small Hinckley Township, OH police chief Mel Wiley. It is now known that RFG had discussed the case with a friend at least six years after it happened. Another famous case was was of a Maryland college president, Julian Carsey, who was subject of the book Exit the Rainmaker. It does happen.

I will add that one, at least, of RFG close friends, thinks he walked away. I don't know RFG, and am a bit more skeptical by nature, so I'm still a long way from jumping up and yelling, "See, Ray Gricar walked away!" It, right now, is (barely) what I consider the most likely possibility.


Don't you think it would be tough for Ray to walkaway from his daughter though? Do you think he could have contacted her secretly in some way?


In all honesty, I cannot see the family going through all the hell that they have been put through, if they knew. I think there would be an announcement, and that would end it.

If you want to wade through it, this is a good site:

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



I haven't read of any list of actual 'witnesses' being released by LE.
Since you obviously have, who are the five WITNESSES, not just possible 'sightings', but WITNESSES that you are referring to that have been proven by LE to have actually seen RG in Lewisburg.
Obviously I must have missed some evidence on witnesses that has been presented by LE. [/*]

I believe, conservatively, we've counted them up, woman at the museum, owner of the Street of Shops, two workers there, store owner. There may be several others.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


I must have missed law enforcement's release of this fact also. Would you mind pointing me to the link where LE has released this information? [/*]

As you shjould be well aware, it was from very good investigation by the Centre Daily Times crime reporter, Pete Bosak:

AI don't know if I'd say it was an "unusual fascination," but Ray spoke of the Mel Wiley disappearance to his friend, Assistant District Attorney Steve Sloane. For those of you who may not know, Wiley was a police chief in Hinckley, Ohio, and vanished without a trace in 1985. His abandoned car was found Cleveland's Lakefront State Park. Steve Sloane told me it shouldn't be a surprise that Ray, who was a prosecutor in Cleveland, would know another law enforcement officers in that area, which is a valid point. By why Ray was talking about Wiley six or seven years after the fact is uncertain. By the time Steve joined the district attorney's office with Ray, Wiley would have been missing for years.
Pete Bosak 2/09/08

I am reasonably certain that LE is familiar with it.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella



That is not true. I don't know where you got there but that is a downright lie. I never ever said that. Bring me a stack of Bibles and I will swear on them.

Cloudbuster knows me, ask her if I ever said anything like that.

I don't know who your source is, but whoever is wrong. [/*]

Excuse me, but you did say that.

I am going out on a limb here but I get the feeling since new things are coming out on the investigation, you are now trying to draw it again back to PF. JMO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
What if Ray just happened to go someplace and come back and get into his car. Why would she not leave the car there until the PSP were through with it? Wouldn't a soul mate want all the information on what happened to their soul mate? barf [/*]

If Ray just happened to go someplace and came back he would have contacted Patty himself to see if she had picked the car up from the parking lot. If he came back that night he would have seen the parking lot closed off and LE there and/or his nephews later that night. He would not have left it go at that point.

I wonder why you are again going off half balanced and being so mean to TG and his family and PF.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner Of course, I've never researched "walkaway" cases but that is very interesting. Do know how many "successes" there are?



Just to be clear, those two were some of the higher profile cases where the evidence was of walkaway. There are others in which the "walker" isn't that high profile. A case within the last year was of an auctioneer, who was found by LE and said, basically, **I don't want to go back.**

There are cases where people do successfully walk off to avoid repayment of debt, or to abandon a spouse/children. The Carsey and Wiley cases were not those types of cases. Those factors don't apply in RFG's case either.

Basically, on 4/15/05, RFG didn't own a house, a car, or have any debt. He obviously wasn't facing any criminal charges or any known investigation. If he left on his own, he violated no law in doing so.

[gstickley]

The following was just posted last week relative to "the witnesses" in Lewisburg.


tonyGricar
Member

Registered: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 621

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by logicworks
Is there any witness out of all you have talked to, you personally, that you find so credible that it is possible for you to say without any hesitation, Ray was definitely there on Friday? [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not at all. Fwiw, the same goes for the various LE that worked the case there as well.

If I did think there was no doubt, I'd not likely be sitting here right now, or at any previous point, until I knew what happened that day. The problem is, we have nothing like that to go with.

Now, do I think he was there? Yes, but that level of confidence has pulled waaay back due to the fingerprint issue.

[J. J. in Phila]

GS, I think the key is the last sentence:

Now, do I think he was there? Yes, but that level of confidence has pulled waaay back due to the fingerprint issue.

Now, I don't think it is as strong with the fingerprint issue out there, but that doesn't affect either the scent issue or the witnesses.

[gstickley]

"The Witnesses" in Lewisburg???


Gricar case still baffles police a year later Posted on Fri, Apr. 14, 2006 By Pete Bosak pbosak@centredaily.com BELLEFONTE -- Today marks one year of sorrow and anxiety for the family and friends of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar. For police investigators, it has been one year of frustration.

On April 15, 2005, Gricar took the day off from the district attorney's office, called his girlfriend to tell her he was taking a drive on state Route 192 and seemingly stepped off the face of the planet. *****It was the last time police are sure that anyone heard from or saw him.*****

(Snip)

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I don't care if you are done with me or not. The truth is the truth. Maybe no one told you. I never ever said about Ray being in an apartment. I don't know where you got that. I never posted such a thing.

I don't even think that you are the real Tony. I still say that you are PF who wants to control everything. So don't respond to my posts anymore or are you going to try to get me banned for speaking the truth?

You like to get me banned when you don't like what I have to say. I thought this was an opinion board. Maybe somene should ask LE, or the PSP about this question. [/*]

I can't believe the PSP would tell you, just a Centre County citizen, not even employed by the county, ANYTHING about an active missing person case or things that have been said or done during the investigation. If they did, that person needs to be removed from the case. Tony they might and my opinion, should tell things to, not you, your family or friends.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Raise your hand if you've already done the following:

Show printable version / File Save As / Web Archive

:seeya: [/*]

I haven't. Should I have?

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I believe, conservatively, we've counted them up, woman at the museum, owner of the Street of Shops, two workers there, store owner. There may be several others. [/*]

The dogs didn't find RG's scent out of the parking lot JJ....

Not at the park.

Not by the river.

Not at the Street of Shops.

[Politigal]

On the witnesses who claimed they saw RG....

Some saw him with a woman.

Some saw him alone.

Some saw him wearing jeans.

Some saw him wearing a suit.

For Christ sake, some probably saw him playing a freaking harmonica.


:rolleyes:

But the search dogs didn't find his scent outside the parking lot where his car was...

He was also seen in various other states.

He's omnipresent....NOT

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner


Yes, JJ, I see what you mean.
I went this evening to visit a site another poster suggested. Lo and behold, there is your name. How do you feel about that?
I'm not sure who created the site there on the googlepages, but apparently he once worked with Ray. Is he suggesting that you have inside knowledge? He was very evasive...

I think your postings make good sense. [/*]

It was a she, J. Karen Arnold (JKA), a former ADA, who was an unsuccessful candidate for DA in 2005.

At the time, I had no unpublished information. I was just a moderately good researcher.

I did call her and offer to give her a full disclosure of my real identity; the call was disconnected, but I left her my phone number. She has not called. ;)
I would note that she referred to me more than she did RFG. I think that might tell you more about her that it does about me. I might refer to it as a tactical mistake on her part. :biggrin:

I will say this, I have freely shared my identity with both the press and TG and instructed both to forward it to the police, if requested. Also, because I've indicated that I attended Penn State and a number of people associated with this case also attended it (PEF, Sloane, Judge Grine, TG's brother Chris, and Bosek's wife), it should not be hugely hard to check the alumni directory and figure out exactly who I am, or at least limit it to 20 or so people.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
Thanks for the info on that JJ....

Now for another question--
Let's say that RFG left the parking lot in another car, ie. someone picked him up, would that scent be able to be traced by tracking dogs? I don't think so but correct me if I'm wrong. [/*]

In theory, some dogs could trail the scent from someone in the car. Not the words "in theory." Even the same dog might be able to at some points along the trail and not at others. In the Laci Peterson case, the dog, Merlin, could not track Laci's scent from the house to the warehouse, about 5 miles. The same dog could, however, track Laci's scent a great distance to the bay, several days after that.

In the RFG case, the handler said that the dogs acted as if RFG got into another car. It's obviously possible that RFG got into another car, or that the dogs just lost the scent for some reason. I treat it as being physical evidence that RFG was in the parking lot at some point, but not much more than that.

We basically have two things that put him in Lewisburg:

1. Multiple witnesses.

2. The scent in the parking lot.

What we don't have is evidence that RFG was the last person to drive the Mini.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
"The Witnesses" in Lewisburg???


Gricar case still baffles police a year later Posted on Fri, Apr. 14, 2006 By Pete Bosak pbosak@centredaily.com BELLEFONTE -- Today marks one year of sorrow and anxiety for the family and friends of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar. For police investigators, it has been one year of frustration.

On April 15, 2005, Gricar took the day off from the district attorney's office, called his girlfriend to tell her he was taking a drive on state Route 192 and seemingly stepped off the face of the planet. *****It was the last time police are sure that anyone heard from or saw him.*****

(Snip) [/*]

Yet we do have multiple witnesses, and his scent in Lewisburg to indicate that he was there.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


The dogs didn't find RG's scent out of the parking lot JJ....

Not at the park.

Not by the river.

Not at the Street of Shops. [/*]

But yet the did find it in the parking lot, and not just where the Mini was parked.

As I've said previously, I am very sure that all of the witnesses are not 100% correct in every detail, but I am sure that all of the witnesses are not 100% wrong either.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
well, someone had to take the time to "wipe down" the mini in any case, right? No prints were found. [/*]

LE has said that there was no[/*] wipe down, but I do take that with a grain of salt. There are two other possibilities:

1. The prints were smeared just by the normal acts of driving.

2. A driver was wearing gloves (and it was cold in the morning). LE says there wasn't evidence of that, but I still question that.

We certainly can't say that there was a wipe down or not. At best, it is inconclusive (like so much else in this case).

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner


JJ, this seems simply impossible. Even with gloves, don't you think there would be someone's prints somewhere on that car?
And how can they tell there was no wipedown?
I hate to suggest it (help me Lord) but could LE be
lying ;) [/*]

I don't think that are a huge number of surfaces that would retain fingerprints.

I can see how LE might be able to tell if there was a wipe down from the distribution of unreadable prints; if it was a thorough wipe down, there shouldn't be any prints at all, even unreadable ones. I have to admit though that I am somewhat skeptical that they could tell if the drive surfaces has been handled by someone wearing gloves.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
JJ, who is the "person" who fits the description of "the woman" RFG was reportedly seen with, that is mentioned in the googlepages? Supposedly, this person was a smoker who had an "admiration" for RFG. [/*]

Someone cleared by LE; an old girlfriend of RFG's. I have a name, but I'm not going to post it. It was referred to in the CDT Forum just recently.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by sherryhefner


JJ, this seems simply impossible. Even with gloves, don't you think there would be someone's prints somewhere on that car?
And how can they tell there was no wipedown?
I hate to suggest it (help me Lord) but could LE be
lying ;) [/*]

Were you given Pete Bosak's Q&A Forum on Ray? Has a lot of answers to questions from the beginning.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Were you given Pete Bosak's Q&A Forum on Ray? Has a lot of answers to questions from the beginning.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html [/*]

Sorry I just saw the link JJ put up to this site.

[J. J. in Phila]

From the Forum:

I do know who police thought the mystery woman was, an acquaintance of Ray's who now works in state government. She fit the description and those who knew Ray thought it must have been this woman. So state police checked it out and determined the woman sighted with Ray could not have been the woman police first thought it was. So they essentially dropped it.
Pete Bosak 2/12/08

Now, I know some posters like to put up names of people tangentially connected with this case, but LE seems to have checked out her whereabouts at the time, and she isn't missing. I'd prefer to leave it at that, unless there is further evidence of involvement.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



Who are 'those who knew Ray' who pointed LE in that direction?

Considering he was in a committed relationship, what reason was given by 'those who knew Ray'? History of meetings? Previous recent meetings? Meeting in Tyrone? Meetings re: state government?

Was the description known at the time of questioning? Or was it the smoke odor and ashes alone that led them in that direction?
JMO [/*]

One was probably DZ. He sure acted like he thought RG was out with someone. Oh and his remark about RG having some things to think over. I wonder what DZ knew that no one else did? What did he mean RG had to think some things over?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Who are 'those who knew Ray' who pointed LE in that direction?

Considering he was in a committed relationship, what reason was given by 'those who knew Ray'? History of meetings? Previous recent meetings? Meeting in Tyrone? Meetings re: state government?

Was the description known at the time of questioning? Or was it the smoke odor and ashes alone that led them in that direction?
JMO [/*]

History of a previous relationship. If the description had matched his second wife (it didn't, from what I gather), the focus might have been on her.

As I've indicated, the old friend was not in a law enforcement or policy making position. No meeting in Tyrone or Tyrone connection.

If I should turn up missing, LE might get around to speaking to old friends and old girlfriends. I have a friend from high school (male) who is blond, taller than I am, and reasonably thin; he lives in the general area. If I was seen in the presence of a tall blond man just before I disappeared, LE might ask him where he was.

It might have been something "romantic," it might have been her just running into him, it might have been a "helper," it might have been two old friends meeting for lunch. I think it would be obvious to ask those questions.

Also, I don't think it is too much of a secret that many people who are state employees work in Harrisburg. Lewisburg is about equidistant from Bellefonte and Harrisburg.

The point is, the old girlfriend was accounted for. End of story.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snip>
Also, I don't think it is too much of a secret that many people who are state employees work in Harrisburg. Lewisburg is about equidistant from Bellefonte and Harrisburg. The point is, the old girlfriend was accounted for. End of story. Well it is the end of that story...unless and until someone comes out and says the prior assertion was not entirely accurate (ala the finger prints). If someone did travel from Harrisburg to meet RG, I might have thought the Mifflintown area to have been a better choice. Then again, I am on a budget. And, of course, 'someone' might have had other business to attend to in the Lewisburg area that day. JMOO

Edited: http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


History of a previous relationship. If the description had matched his second wife (it didn't, from what I gather), the focus might have been on her.

As I've indicated, the old friend was not in a law enforcement or policy making position. No meeting in Tyrone or Tyrone connection.

If I should turn up missing, LE might get around to speaking to old friends and old girlfriends. I have a friend from high school (male) who is blond, taller than I am, and reasonably thin; he lives in the general area. If I was seen in the presence of a tall blond man just before I disappeared, LE might ask him where he was.

It might have been something "romantic," it might have been her just running into him, it might have been a "helper," it might have been two old friends meeting for lunch. I think it would be obvious to ask those questions.

Also, I don't think it is too much of a secret that many people who are state employees work in Harrisburg. Lewisburg is about equidistant from Bellefonte and Harrisburg.

The point is, the old girlfriend was accounted for. End of story. [/*]

You are assuming he only had one old girlfriend? jmo

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



I find it extremely doubtful RG would have shared ANYthing personal with DZ therefore unlikely DZ knew something that NO one else did. .....IMO, someone else did, and told DZ.
Who, and what? [/*]

Maybe DZ was jealous of RG? Maybe of his rise to the top level of LE and DZ has remained at the same level since he was a "rookie with the police force". Maybe of RG being intelligent and good looking and has had a couple long term relationship with very good looking women.

There have been dozens of comments made by DZ in the local news and in interviews. I will include a link here to numerous ones. Specifically the one where he is saying about the laptop going with RG and his report but with no follow up to it, as he smiled.

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=122775&threadid=737159

Quote:
“The question becomes, why would a person who’s just going for a leisurely drive take the time to go upstairs and remove the laptop from its case and take it with them? Why not take the case?”

Zaccagni anticipates his visitor’s response. This makes no sense.

“It makes a lot of sense,” he replies with a smile"
Quote

OK DZ what was the sense of it? What did you know that no one else did and you thought was so funny?

[sherrijean981]

CB, I sent the section of tape to a friend who has some equipment and they sent it to his aunt who is interested in the paranormal. She suggested you get it to the Paranormal Society at Penn State. She believes you have something there.

I can't post the section of tape on the forum. It is a link on my email site. The only thing I can do is send it to email addresses.

If anyone is interested CB gave me permission to share it. You can get a great feel for what she has been talking about. As my friend said, "Ewwww, Creepy!!!"

[Chump#7]

Paranormal Society at Penn State.

PRS? Heh. They've been thoroughly debunked (if you ever took anything they did as serious to begin with). Their little program on A&E was originally intended to be a scripted program with a candid reality feel (and it is...). The 'clients' are in on it. I know this first hand. It's just entertainment (comedy for me) like Scooby Doo. Meddling kids.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Well it is the end of that story...unless and until someone comes out and says the prior assertion was not entirely accurate (ala the finger prints). If someone did travel from Harrisburg to meet RG, I might have thought the Mifflintown area to have been a better choice. Then again, I am on a budget. And, of course, 'someone' might have had other business to attend to in the Lewisburg area that day. JMOO

Edited: http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html [/*]

When, and if, there is some evidence of the old friend's involvement, I'll be more willing to discuss her. :)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


You are assuming he only had one old girlfriend? jmo [/*]

No, quite the opposite; I'm aware of only one that was a state employee at the time.

[Chump#7]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, quite the opposite; I'm aware of only one that was a state employee at the time. [/*]

The same one said to have 'ties' in Lewisburg?

[day2day]

Originally posted by Chump#7


PRS? Heh. They've been thoroughly debunked (if you ever took anything they did as serious to begin with). Their little program on A&E was originally intended to be a scripted program with a candid reality feel (and it is...). The 'clients' are in on it. I know this first hand. It's just entertainment (comedy for me) like Scooby Doo. Meddling kids. [/*]

Great. Next you are gonna tell me that the tooth fairy doesn't exist...lol!!hammer

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Chump#7


The same one said to have 'ties' in Lewisburg? [/*]

This one, the state worker, so far as I know, has no ties to Lewisburg. There was one identified as a nurse.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by sherrijean981 <Snip>
CB, I sent the section of tape to a friend who has some equipment and they sent it to his aunt who is interested in the paranormal. She suggested you get it to the Paranormal Society at Penn State. She believes you have something there. It was that society's director who hooked CarlaB up with LE in the (still unsolved) Cindy Song case.
http://ryansblog.pennstateprs.com/2006/11/01/five-years-ago.aspx

But he says he himself is not a fan of psychics.
http://ryansblog.pennstateprs.com/2008/01/29/concerning-psychics--chip-coffey.aspx

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It was that society's director who hooked CarlaB up with LE in the (still unsolved) Cindy Song case.
http://ryansblog.pennstateprs.com/2006/11/01/five-years-ago.aspx

But he says he himself is not a fan of psychics.
http://ryansblog.pennstateprs.com/2008/01/29/concerning-psychics--chip-coffey.aspx [/*]

I only told CB what was told to me. I have seen the show a few times, can not say one way or the other if they are not legitimate. If not, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed interested people who do believe when they have their big conference coming up in a couple months.

If someone is a believer in something, isn't it their right to do so?
:shrug:

[sherrijean981]

I am replying to a pm sent to me by Cinderella.

She is saying she never said RG had an apartment in Bellefonte. I am to post her a link to where she said that. Since her conversation started on the forum that is where I am replying to her.

Cinderella, did you tape our conversation when we spent the day together in Bellefonte? When we went to the Willowbank Offices, CCCH, past PF's house, to Wingate, BJL's place and past the Sayers Dam? I didn't either.

You told me as we were driving through Bellefonte that RG was "supposed" to have an apartment in town. The same thing you had said on the forum, because you brought the forum quote up in that conversation.

I am sorry you continually stick your foot in your mouth, but others have the info if you want it sent to you. I believe it was S1 that ask if you want it sent to you? I didn't back up any files before you and Pgal removed them months ago. If someone else has them you should see them, since they have offered them to you.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I only told CB what was told to me. I have seen the show a few times, can not say one way or the other if they are not legitimate. If not, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed interested people who do believe when they have their big conference coming up in a couple months.

If someone is a believer in something, isn't it their right to do so?
:shrug: [/*]

They were profiled in the Alumni magazine recently. I think they are sincere, but accuracy is another matter. It wouldn't hurt to let them look at the tape.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I am replying to a pm sent to me by Cinderella.

She is saying she never said RG had an apartment in Bellefonte. I am to post her a link to where she said that. Since her conversation started on the forum that is where I am replying to her.

Cinderella, did you tape our conversation when we spent the day together in Bellefonte? When we went to the Willowbank Offices, CCCH, past PF's house, to Wingate, BJL's place and past the Sayers Dam? I didn't either.

You told me as we were driving through Bellefonte that RG was "supposed" to have an apartment in town. The same thing you had said on the forum, because you brought the forum quote up in that conversation.

I am sorry you continually stick your foot in your mouth, but others have the info if you want it sent to you. I believe it was S1 that ask if you want it sent to you? I didn't back up any files before you and Pgal removed them months ago. If someone else has them you should see them, since they have offered them to you. [/*]


Yes I would very much like to see a copy of just that as I never said that. SherriJean, maybe you need to go to an ear specialist.
Didn't you say somethng at the time where you were having trouble hearing? The only thing that I said to you that day concerning Ray was that he supposedly lived on Halfmoon Hill. That is all that I said about where Ray supposedly lived. Find anything online where I said that. I also welcome the e-mail where I supposedly told TG that. I never ever said that. Go ahead Prove me wrong because I know that I never said that. If in fact I would have felt that I would have told Cloudbuster. She never heard that. I never said that.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I only told CB what was told to me. I have seen the show a few times, can not say one way or the other if they are not legitimate. If not, then there are going to be a lot of disappointed interested people who do believe when they have their big conference coming up in a couple months.

If someone is a believer in something, isn't it their right to do so?
:shrug: Of course it is, sj. Last month I spent an entire day at a university conference on global warming. . . .:read:

[Chump#7]

If someone is a believer in something, isn't it their right to do so?

Since I put it out there: It is absolutely someone's right to believe whatever they want, as are all faith based beliefs. I just happen to know one of the 'clients' from the Paranormal State program who was exercising his theater skills.

[If it's a faith that wants to impose itself on my wallet, such as human activity being responsible for global warming, I'll exercise my right to come at you with both guns blazin'.]

Now back to the topic(s). I have some questions.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



DZ appears to be operating on only assumption.......
1. that the laptop went directly from the closet to Lewisburg
2. that RG was the only one who had access to the laptop or the closet
3. that the laptop was in the closet, not in the vehicle prior to disappearance.
4. that the laptop was never in the courthouse, in spite of personnel in the office being asked to check if it was there.

Unless PF kept tabs on both the laptop and the vehicle at ALL times, which JJ has assured us she never did, OR unless someone saw RG with the laptop in Lewisburg on 4/15-16, there is no proof RG took the laptop, or that it disappeared from the closet on 4/15-16 or that it arrived in Lewisburg on 4/15-16.


I think that the matter might be as expressed just recently by PB:

But the laptop has always caused me to question the foul play angle. If you can manage to kidnap an intelligent, street-smart prosecutor in broad daylight, kill him and then dispose of the body so it's never found, why didn't the computer disappear with him? That troubles me. A killer can do all of this but can't get rid of a lap top so no one can find it? What do the rest of you think?
Pete Bosak 2/18/08

Now, I actually disagree, at least as to the possibility.

1. RFG could have been lured into another vehicle, with the laptop. He could have been taken to another location and killed. The killer disposed of the body before realizing the laptop was in the other vehicle.

2. Data could have been added at a meeting with the killer in Lewisburg and the laptop left with the Mini. The killer returns and takes the laptop.

3. The laptop could have been removed by a "buddy" and disposed near where the Mini was found.

DZ could have been referring to something like what PB was referring to in his answer.

I don't find the fact that the laptop was found, with the drive removed, in Lewisburg to be too solid an argument against murder. It's the skeptic in me.

Except for #3, even a witness seeing RFG with the laptop in Lewisburg would not rule out the first two possibility.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



DZ appears to be operating on only assumption.......


IMO, this is the biggest reason why PSP should have been called in immediately to do ALL searching and testing, fingerprinting, photos, the whole bit, not a school chum...........instead an 'unknown' who wouldn't overlook anything.

JMO [/*]

From the article, DZ is making the statement on his own, not with anyone's interference. He and a reporter. Reading the article further he is also "assuming" RG used the computer to have a diary, or bank info, or suicide info. Those assumptions can not be PF's because she has always felt he was alive. Not commiting suicide or murdered. Even on her interviews she is asking RG to call home and will wait as long as it takes. She believed there was something wrong with him. At least the day Cindi and I talked with her, that was what she was thinking.

As to the "school chum" assumption, no one ever said PF and DZ were school chums. He might have known her in school or when he was a rookie in the BPD because of her uncle or family, but that does not mean they were "chums". For all anyone knows she might have felt about him then as some of feel about him now.
JMO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella



Yes I would very much like to see a copy of just that as I never said that. SherriJean, maybe you need to go to an ear specialist.
Didn't you say somethng at the time where you were having trouble hearing? The only thing that I said to you that day concerning Ray was that he supposedly lived on Halfmoon Hill. That is all that I said about where Ray supposedly lived. Find anything online where I said that. I also welcome the e-mail where I supposedly told TG that. I never ever said that. Go ahead Prove me wrong because I know that I never said that. If in fact I would have felt that I would have told Cloudbuster. She never heard that. I never said that. [/*]

Since Cloudbuster was not with us that day in Bellefonte she would not have heard it said. I have no idea what you talk to Cloudbuster about and I don't need to know.

My hearing is fine, thank you. You really should carry a recorder with you. Now how would some of us know about you saying there was an apartment holding RG, when I heard it when with you, others have past saved threads that you deleted with the info on it.

I will not get in to a word battle game with you Cinderella. You get like this every couple of months. Cause trouble on the forum and then turn it on to the rest of us. When you are feeling the turmoil inside you should stay off the forum, it seems to agitate you.

Have a better day! :)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981



As to the "school chum" assumption, no one ever said PF and DZ were school chums. He might have known her in school or when he was a rookie in the BPD because of her uncle or family, but that does not mean they were "chums". For all anyone knows she might have felt about him then as some of feel about him now.
JMO [/*]

Let's be very clear, the Fornicola name was very well known in Bellefonte in the late 1970's and 1980's, but largely because of Gino Fornicola. When PEF was in high school, Gino had been a prominent businessman in Bellefonte for a decade and might have been holding office at the time; he was running for mayor during her senior year (and possibly had been holding the post before that). You can google "Mr. Bellefonte" and the name Gino Fornicola comes up.

To me, it is inconceivable that anyone in the BPD would NOT have known who the members of the Fornicola family were, not to mention most of the people in Bellefonte. It's not exactly a big town.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Let's be very clear, the Fornicola name was very well known in Bellefonte in the late 1970's and 1980's, but largely because of Gino Fornicola. When PEF was in high school, Gino had been a prominent businessman in Bellefonte for a decade and might have been holding office at the time; he was running for mayor during her senior year (and possibly had been holding the post before that). You can google "Mr. Bellefonte" and the name Gino Fornicola comes up.

To me, it is inconceivable that anyone in the BPD would NOT have known who the members of the Fornicola family were, not to mention most of the people in Bellefonte. It's not exactly a big town. [/*]

JJ, I didn't say DZ would not have known her or of her. I lived in Bellefonte at that time, I didn't know any of them personally, but I recognized them when seeing them on the street. I don't have to google anyone since I am familiar with them and what they did for the county.

My point was "chum" and what I know "chum" to mean. I thought it meant someone you palled around with, were close friends with. This from a Thesaurus sounds like it is a colse relationship. Do we know that PF ever had that type of "chum" relationship with DZ? Or was he someone standing behind the fence googling her? Just a thought JJ. We don't know what kind of relationship they had, ever, if any!

Quote:
" Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: chum
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: friend
Synonyms: associate, buddy, comate, companion, comrade, crony, mate, pal, playmate
Antonyms: adversary, enemy, foe, stranger
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2008 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. " Quote

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


JJ, I didn't say DZ would not have known her or of her. I lived in Bellefonte at that time, I didn't know any of them personally, but I recognized them when seeing them on the street. I don't have to google anyone since I am familiar with them and what they did for the county.



I did mean to imply that you wouldn't know who the Fornicola's were. That was the reference to "most of the people in Bellefonte." I went to school a few miles down the road and I knew the name.



My point was "chum" and what I know "chum" to mean. I thought it meant someone you palled around with, were close friends with. This from a Thesaurus sounds like it is a colse relationship. Do we know that PF ever had that type of "chum" relationship with DZ? Or was he someone standing behind the fence googling her? Just a thought JJ. We don't know what kind of relationship they had, ever, if any!



I agree with you there. I think just about anybody in Bellefonte would know who PEF was, or at least recognize the name, even when she was in high school. The town had less than 7,000 residents and the family was prominent (though I'm told less so today).

If DZ did not know who PEF was, I'd think him a complete (or even a more complete) idiot.

As to "chum," not that I know of. There is a world of difference between knowing who someone is, knowing someone professionally, knowing someone, and being a "chum."

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Let's be very clear, the Fornicola name was very well known in Bellefonte in the late 1970's and 1980's, but largely because of Gino Fornicola. When PEF was in high school, Gino had been a prominent businessman in Bellefonte for a decade and might have been holding office at the time; he was running for mayor during her senior year (and possibly had been holding the post before that). You can google "Mr. Bellefonte" and the name Gino Fornicola comes up.

To me, it is inconceivable that anyone in the BPD would NOT have known who the members of the Fornicola family were, not to mention most of the people in Bellefonte. It's not exactly a big town. [/*]

And SO prominent in the community that they might have earned a few "favors" along the way?.....justa thought ..

[Laws]

This is the first time I have been able to type here since the coming out of the fingerprint misinformation was disclosed by Pete Bosak. Am really glad that FINALLY just a bit of what us that follow these crime boards would expect, rather than fabrication.

Wonder what the findings were on the cell phone. Was the cell phone disassembed for what could have been found inside? Just wondering. Now just thinking out loud wouldn't one expect to find fingerprints of the owner on same? I would. Of course, there are real questions about that infamous call to the courthouse 4/15/05 by a number of us here who feel it was most likely NOT that of Mr. Gricar.

Also wonder about how Mr. Gricar would normally hold his cell phone when using. Up to his ear, in front of him, depends on his personal habits & the performance of the phone would have also influenced those habits. Anybody know or is that too personal?

Don't mean to offend with the above.

The Saint need not respond as I personally believe nothing spewing from that mouth.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


And SO prominent in the community that they might have earned a few "favors" along the way?.....justa thought .. [/*]

In 1982, maybe. This was 2005.

Gino Fornicola had been dead for several years by that point and hadn't been the mayor for 20 years.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Laws
This is the first time I have been able to type here since the coming out of the fingerprint misinformation was disclosed by Pete Bosak. Am really glad that FINALLY just a bit of what us that follow these crime boards would expect, rather than fabrication.

Wonder what the findings were on the cell phone. Was the cell phone disassembed for what could have been found inside? Just wondering. Now just thinking out loud wouldn't one expect to find fingerprints of the owner on same? I would. Of course, there are real questions about that infamous call to the courthouse 4/15/05 by a number of us here who feel it was most likely NOT that of Mr. Gricar.

Also wonder about how Mr. Gricar would normally hold his cell phone when using. Up to his ear, in front of him, depends on his personal habits & the performance of the phone would have also influenced those habits. Anybody know or is that too personal?

Don't mean to offend with the above.

The Saint need not respond as I personally believe nothing spewing from that mouth. [/*]

Apparently, nothing, though I'm guessing that it wasn't wiped. More smears.

From what I've been told, which has been published, there wasn't evidence that anyone tried to hide prints. I think I've pointed out that a driver, including RFG, could have smeared them during normal use.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Laws


The Saint need not respond as I personally believe nothing spewing from that mouth. [/*]

Who is The Saint?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Who is The Saint? [/*]

The infamous Simon Templar? :biggrin:

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Laws
This is the first time I have been able to type here since the coming out of the fingerprint misinformation was disclosed by Pete Bosak. Am really glad that FINALLY just a bit of what us that follow these crime boards would expect, rather than fabrication.

Wonder what the findings were on the cell phone. Was the cell phone disassembed for what could have been found inside? Just wondering. Now just thinking out loud wouldn't one expect to find fingerprints of the owner on same? I would. Of course, there are real questions about that infamous call to the courthouse 4/15/05 by a number of us here who feel it was most likely NOT that of Mr. Gricar.

Also wonder about how Mr. Gricar would normally hold his cell phone when using. Up to his ear, in front of him, depends on his personal habits & the performance of the phone would have also influenced those habits. Anybody know or is that too personal?

Don't mean to offend with the above.

The Saint need not respond as I personally believe nothing spewing from that mouth. [/*]

Using the words of a key player in this case --- the report of no fingerprints found in RG's vehicle was certainly "an odd little BOMBSHELL" in my opinion.

And, no fingerprints on the cellphone - even odder still.

Obviously, who ever took that Mini to Lewisburg did not want to be identified. And IMO, I don't believe RG would try & hide his own identity in his own vehicle. That's plain stupid.

And I keep going back to that laptop.....and where it was kept at the home - in the upstairs closet. That doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room IMO as to who took it out of the case.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Using the words of a key player in this case --- the report of no fingerprints found in RG's vehicle was certainly "an odd little BOMBSHELL" in my opinion.

And, no fingerprints on the cellphone - even odder still.


Actually, it means neither; the car wasn't wiped down and there isn't any evidence of someone hiding their prints.

Any driver, including RFG, could have smeared the prints. Whomever the last driver was, and we can't say who that was, didn't care if he left his prints in the Mini.

You might want to ask PB why LE can make those statements. In this case, they can, and they have evidence.

[J. J. in Phila]

Oh, and the answer to you your question:

"Consider *who* had access to Patty Fornicola's upstairs closet where the laptop was kept...." is "... Ray Gricar, among others."

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


The only reason someone would find no need to hide prints would be if their prints would be expected to be found in the vehicle and could be explained away. That boils it down to two people, according to your theory.
JMO [/*]

Agreed, but one of those two hadn't driven the car recently, so far as we know. One of those two's story indicated that she didn't drive the Mini that day. So, out of those two, which would be less likely to worry about the prints?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Odd that it wasn't revealed, since it is a bombshell, big as far as evidence goes.
.......lil ole-fashioned sort of blackmail, maybe?
Of the 'keep it quiet and I'll keep quiet' type?
Maybe it backfired somewhere along the way.
JMO [/*]


What it does do is make it unclear if RFG was the last person to drive the Mini. Conversely, it seems very clear that no one tried to hide the identity of the last driver.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila



What it does do is make it unclear if RFG was the last person to drive the Mini. Conversely, it seems very clear that no one tried to hide the identity of the last driver. [/*]

It does???

I *don't* believe it does.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


It does???

I *don't* believe it does. [/*]

Wheter *you* believe it or not, that is what is still being reported, after the press got the report.

I can send a question to PB.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Wheter *you* believe it or not, that is what is still being reported, after the press got the report.

I can send a question to PB. [/*]

Is that a threat? :biggrin:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Is that a threat? :biggrin: [/*]

I don't threaten, just warn. Oh, and I did ask the question.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



The only thing 'very clear' is that RG's prints were not disturbed on the driver's door handle. That in no way proves RG was the last driver.
Were there prints on the passenger exterior door handle and if there were, were they smeared or not?


No evidence gloves, no evidence of a wipe down; I strongly suspect that there are reasons why LE can rule those out.


If someone wanted it to look like suicide then leave prints on the passenger exterior door handle after parking the car to indicate he 'had been alone', and 'not himself', which of course, was the first 'push'.....and maybe he was so not himself, he smoked.......
question here....did RG ever smoke earlier in life and who knew it?


I think we've gotten the smoke part, only an occasional cigar.

The problem is, without the prints, we can't say if RFG was alone or if he was the last driver. We can only say that no one wiped down the car or drove with gloves. Whomever the last person was didn't want to "make it look like suicide," if there was a chance that their prints could be found.


If someone wanted it to look like 'runaway' with a specific someone, then smear the prints on the passenger exterior door handle and drop some ashes.


There is no way that a person could "know" that their prints were smeared, especially if they drove the car for more than an hour. The ash was inconclusive for walkaway or not.

The whole problem with the laptop is, what is it doing there and who would have known where it was?

The prime answer to that second question is "RFG, PEF, and anyone else they told about about it (the "buddy," for example)."

The problem is, except for RFG, anybody else would not have wanted their prints in the car and would have worn gloves or wiped it down. Even PEF, whose prints could be explained, really wouldn't want them on a drive surface.
Yet the car wasn't wiped down. It's yet another piece of a vey complex puzzle.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by jacknpeytonsmom
I noticed a lot of activity on this thread, when in the past, I had not. I also notice there are many people who seem to know Ray personally. I am somewhat confused. Has new evidence come out as of late to breath new life into the investigation? I have not read or heard anything on the news on this in quite a while. It seems like most of you are in the know, but since it's been so long since I originally followed the case, I cannot make heads or tails of the conversation and feel as though I am missing something new.

Thanks! [/*]To my knowledge, I'm the only poster who personally knew, or even met, Ray.

There are some locals, current and former, who intently follow this case, and occassionally cull information from a variety of connections. Some just have had an interest in the case from Day 1. Some like to post wild rumors that they "hear around town", which usually indicates a certain detachment from reality. Sometimes a grain of salt is required. Sometimes a salt lick is more suitable. Welcome to the board.

Tony

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by jacknpeytonsmom
I noticed a lot of activity on this thread, when in the past, I had not. I also notice there are many people who seem to know Ray personally. I am somewhat confused. Has new evidence come out as of late to breath new life into the investigation? I have not read or heard anything on the news on this in quite a while. It seems like most of you are in the know, but since it's been so long since I originally followed the case, I cannot make heads or tails of the conversation and feel as though I am missing something new.

Thanks! [/*]


One word of advice. Don't mention anything upsetting about PF because if you do then everyone jumps on you. Keep on the good side and allow her to be the angel that she is.

Also sometimes posters think that they heard something that they didn't. When you call them on it, they just knew that you said something. So please keep every bit or postings that you have and always record your conversations with certain posters.

Good Luck. There are a few of us that Ray was our county DA. Oh and don't make waves as you will be labeled a troublemaker. Don't talk to PF if you see her when driving by as you will be labeled a stalker.

GOOD LUCK.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by jacknpeytonsmom
Well, at least it's good that someone is still talking about this. But I would take your response to mean that there has been no real new evidence as of late, outside of rumor. [/*]Not at all. I took it upon myself to address your question of people knowing Ray. Hate to think we'd lose participants if it was viewed as the proverbial private party.

Developments of late:

- Bellefonte Police repeatedly stated that several prints inside the car belonged to Ray, when in fact none of Ray's prints were in there. One lone print was found on the outside of the driver's window.

- New lead detective assigned to the case seems to be really re-working the information and a possible new, more open relationship with the media could be blooming. Previous lead "detective" was never actually a Detective, even though BPD had at least one veteran Detective riding shotgun.

[tonyGricar]

How fortuitous that I had just suggested a salt lick.

[J. J. in Phila]

In all fairness, some new information has come to light in recent weeks, that has prompted some new activity.

We, the posters, found out several new things.

1. RFG's prints were not in the Mini, but LE found no evidence of anyone attempting to wipe down the car.

2. RFG was interested in a least one prior walkaway case (Mel Wiley of Hinckley Township, Ohio), to the extent of discussing it with a friend (with no ties to the case) at least six years after the fact.

3. The Bellefonte Police Department are still seriously investigating the case.

4. I have an "analytical mind." :rolleyes:

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I think that the matter might be as expressed just recently by PB:

But the laptop has always caused me to question the foul play angle. If you can manage to kidnap an intelligent, street-smart prosecutor in broad daylight, kill him and then dispose of the body so it's never found, why didn't the computer disappear with him? That troubles me. A killer can do all of this but can't get rid of a lap top so no one can find it? What do the rest of you think?
Pete Bosak 2/18/08

Now, I actually disagree, at least as to the possibility.

1. RFG could have been lured into another vehicle, with the laptop. He could have been taken to another location and killed. The killer disposed of the body before realizing the laptop was in the other vehicle.

2. Data could have been added at a meeting with the killer in Lewisburg and the laptop left with the Mini. The killer returns and takes the laptop.

3. The laptop could have been removed by a "buddy" and disposed near where the Mini was found.

DZ could have been referring to something like what PB was referring to in his answer.

I don't find the fact that the laptop was found, with the drive removed, in Lewisburg to be too solid an argument against murder. It's the skeptic in me.

Except for #3, even a witness seeing RFG with the laptop in Lewisburg would not rule out the first two possibility. [/*]
I think later if this case is solved your going to find out that RG tossed the laptop and then the murderer pulled out and got it. The laptop most likely minused it's hardrive was then tossed from the southside I believe of that bridge or walkway whatever you call it.
JMO Thats the way I understand it from the Ghost.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

I think later if this case is solved your going to find out that RG tossed the laptop and then the murderer pulled out and got it. The laptop most likely minused it's hardrive was then tossed from the southside I believe of that bridge or walkway whatever you call it.
JMO Thats the way I understand it from the Ghost. [/*]

Then the laptop and drive were really salmons, since they were found on the north side of the bridge, upstream. ;)

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
From the Forum:

I do know who police thought the mystery woman was, an acquaintance of Ray's who now works in state government. She fit the description and those who knew Ray thought it must have been this woman. So state police checked it out and determined the woman sighted with Ray could not have been the woman police first thought it was. So they essentially dropped it.
Pete Bosak 2/12/08

Now, I know some posters like to put up names of people tangentially connected with this case, but LE seems to have checked out her whereabouts at the time, and she isn't missing. I'd prefer to leave it at that, unless there is further evidence of involvement. [/*]
Problem is the ghost called her by her first name and then a P. I suppose that's her initial for a last name. So it's BP. Another problem I have is the ghost said she was on the phone. Okay but in the second later part of the tape a woman shows up right where my ghost is and she calls all the people there a murderer. They tell her their not murderers and they give her some bull S--t story that Mr M wanted her to know. Of course she bought the story about what they claimed my ghost stumbled on. (they was lying to her.) After she leaves Mr. -------- is told to start one and you hear the machine. Now what the heck? :read:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

Problem is the ghost called her by her first name and then a P. I suppose that's her initial for a last name. So it's BP. Another problem I have is the ghost said she was on the phone. Okay but in the second later part of the tape a woman shows up right where my ghost is and she calls all the people there a murderer. They tell her their not murderers and they give her some bull S--t story that Mr M wanted her to know. Of course she bought the story about what they claimed my ghost stumbled on. (they was lying to her.) After she leaves Mr. -------- is told to start one and you hear the machine. Now what the heck? :read: [/*]

I'd really suggest that you pop out the tape and find an copy of the Toni Basil song "Mickey." Great video too. :)

The song went to #1 on the Billboard Charts in 1982. So many of the principals in this case probably know it.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
How fortuitous that I had just suggested a salt lick. [/*]


You might need the salt lick if the truth ever comes out about PF wanting the "Mini" before the PSP was done with it. I hope that it does come out. I don't know if the PSP will bring it to light or not, but at any rate, I am hoping that the truth comes out.

Also TG please pm me that e-mail about the Bellefonte apartment.

Please also contact that man that saw Ray. After all if someone has a different timeline then it should be given much weight. Unless you choose to stick to PF's timeline.

[Cloudbuster]

Hey Mickey
You've been around all night and that's a little long
You think you've got the right but I think you've got it wrong
Why can't we say goodnight? So you can take me home Mickey

'Cause when you say you will, it always means you won't
You're givin' me the chills, baby, please baby
Don't every night you still leave me alone Mickey

(CHORUS)
Oh Mickey, what a pity, you don't understand
You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand
Oh Mickey, you're so pretty, can't you understand
It's guys like you, Mickey
Ooh what you do Mickey, do Mickey
Don't break my heart, Mickey

Hey Mickey
Now when you take me by the who's ever gonna know
And every time you move you let a little more show
There's something you can lose, so don't say no Mickey

So come on and give it to me anyway you can
Anyway you want to do it, I'll take it like a man
But please baby, please don't leave me in this jam Mickey

(CHORUS)

Oh Mickey, you're so fine
You're so fine, you blow my mind, hey Mickey, hey Mickey
Oh Mickey, you're so fine
You're so fine, you blow my mind, hey Mickey, hey Mickey
Oh Mickey, you're so fine
You're so fine, you blow my mind, hey Mickey, hey Mickey
Oh Mickey, you're so fine
You're so fine, you blow my mind, hey Mickey, hey Mickey

Okay found the lyrics.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Hey Mickey
You've been around all night and that's a little long
You think you've got the right but I think you've got it wrong
Why can't we say goodnight? So you can take me home Mickey

'Cause when you say you will, it always means you won't
You're givin' me the chills, baby, please baby
Don't every night you still leave me alone Mickey

(CHORUS)
Oh Mickey, what a pity, you don't understand
You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand
Oh Mickey, you're so pretty, can't you understand
It's guys like you, Mickey
Ooh what you do Mickey, do Mickey
Don't break my heart, Mickey

Hey Mickey
Now when you take me by the who's ever gonna know
And every time you move you let a little more show
There's something you can lose, so don't say no Mickey

So come on and give it to me anyway you can
Anyway you want to do it, I'll take it like a man
But please baby, please don't leave me in this jam Mickey

(CHORUS)

Oh Mickey, you're so fine
You're so fine, you blow my mind, hey Mickey, hey Mickey
Oh Mickey, you're so fine
You're so fine, you blow my mind, hey Mickey, hey Mickey
Oh Mickey, you're so fine
You're so fine, you blow my mind, hey Mickey, hey Mickey
Oh Mickey, you're so fine
You're so fine, you blow my mind, hey Mickey, hey Mickey

Okay found the lyrics. [/*]

And there are some very good parodies of it too. :)

[Cloudbuster]

You could only mean 1 of 3 things lol. One rhyms.
I'd like to share what happened to me today and leads to me another question now. I was thinking on the word Robert in the tape and pondering on what if I got that wrong and its a word that sounds like Robert. I then got burned from a ash from my cigerette. My ghost hates cigerettes and I took that as a sign, which brings me up to a name sounded out thats similair. Now I gotta ask and no one will probably respond, but what was Corbetts relationship like with RG? Im asking because of a burn I got and took it as a sign. I got there was fire there? Im sure TG would know but I think he said about making it hard lol. I guess it's gonna be what my old boss says "it's on a need to know basis". I just wanta see if Im reading the signs correctly. :read:

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Then the laptop and drive were really salmons, since they were found on the north side of the bridge, upstream. ;) [/*]
He had to mean something about the southside perhaps a driving direction? He mentioned tossed from the southside. He don't say anything about the north side.:read:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

He had to mean something about the southside perhaps a driving direction? He mentioned tossed from the southside. He don't say anything about the north side.:read: [/*]

No, both the drive the and the laptop were on the north side, the opposite side from the walkway. Your ghost got it wrong.

My serious suggestion, ignore your ghost for a while.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snip>
My serious suggestion, ignore your ghost for a while. Or take TG's advice and put it on the "Unexplained Phenomena" thread, or start your own ghost-tape thread...pretty please.

And while I am on TG's advice, I concur with his assessment of recent developments...except, as I understand it, prints were found inside the Mini Cooper, but all were too poor in quality to make an identification. That the prints lifted from inside the car for analysis could not be identified as RG's, seems to conflict with earlier reports.

But, some of the extrapolations being made in this forum (of that recent development) have me as lost as jacknpeytonsmom. And I also find myself in need of a new salt lick...so I am off to the local farm supply store. Later. All JMOO

Edit: yeah...what logicworks just posted.

[Cinderella]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serendipitous1
And I also find myself in need of a new salt lick...so I am off to the local farm supply store. Later. All JMOO


While you are at it, could you pick me up one too. Get me the biggest they have. Thanks, S1.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Where is your proof gloves weren't worn? [/*]

There were probably prints, but not of good enough quality to lift and match. As for your last question, if someone wore gloves, yes, that definitely would damage, destroy, smear, etc. whatever prints were there. But there also likely would have been some indication of gloves though. Police have said there was no evidence anyone tried to "wipe down" the Mini.
Pete Bosak 2/14/08

I have asked the question of how LE could determine that.

The question is, who would have driven the car on 4/15/05 (or 4/14) and wouldn't be worried about leaving prints? I can only come up with one answer, and it's not PEF.

I know this, if I were involved with RFG's disappearance, I sure as heck wouldn't want my prints, or anything else connected to me, in that car, even if there was a record of me being in that car many times before. There either would have been a wipe down or I would have been wearing gloves.

If that was not the case, whomever the last driver was, he didn't care if the prints were found. That can be very important.

[Politigal]

I stopped eating salt when I was pregnant with my first child - per doctors orders - years ago....haven't touched it since.

If I could get a chocolate lick though....:tongue:

[ladyheartfixer]

Originally posted by logicworks



If leather gloves or cloth gloves were used to smear, it is possible for that to be determined by pattern. One pair of surgical gloves could leave a print because of the snugness of the glove, two pair unlikely.
JMO [/*]


sorry to contradict this but prints do not transfer through surgical gloves..the prints are left from the oils, etc on the skin. No matter how snug the gloves fit...and as an aside..I wear a small so they are quite snug.

[Chump#7]

Edited: I guess not.

"Nothing to see here, folks. Move along"

- Det. Zee

[ladyheartfixer]

I guess it would certainly slow down the lab investigation if there were a lot of LE wearing gloves and leaving their fingerprints on objects collected at crime scenes then, huh? so again..I have to disagree. MOO

no wonder the backlog...lol

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by logicworks
It just occurred to me when I was thinking about the different professions involved that would use this type of glove.....(boy, am I dense sometimes).........LE, for the gathering of evidence.
Wonder if a DA ever has them in possession if called to a crime scene. [/*]Funny you mention this... I actually keep a couple of surgical gloves in my glovebox for the times when I have to check the oil, go under the hood, etc. It's always in the back of my head what an officer might say when asking me for my vehicle reg during a traffic stop. ;)

edited: I have standard latex gloves (use them in the kitchen), not surgical. I don't recall seeing any LE, or even medics, using true surgical gloves.

[ladyheartfixer]

I have a box of standard latex gloves in my kitchen for general cleaning purposes...the one's I carry in my car are surgical gloves in case of emergencies in line with my work.;)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
I have a box of standard latex gloves in my kitchen for general cleaning purposes...the one's I carry in my car are surgical gloves in case of emergencies in line with my work.;) [/*]

I wear a pair when I shine shoes. :)

The real question is, can LE tell if someone wearing gloves handled an object? Can they in this case? PB seems to be saying yes.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Funny you mention this... I actually keep a couple of surgical gloves in my glovebox for the times when I have to check the oil, go under the hood, etc. It's always in the back of my head what an officer might say when asking me for my vehicle reg during a traffic stop. ;)

edited: I have standard latex gloves (use them in the kitchen), not surgical. I don't recall seeing any LE, or even medics, using true surgical gloves. I think LE would find my glovebox more interesting...it is loaded and I do have a permit...so I keep my car cards elsewhere.

Too bad there was no latex glove found in the parking lot (ala the Grinstead case). But my point was that evidence of a wipe down, and the possibility of underlying prints being degraded by gloved hands, are not the same thing. And I viewed PB's post-revelation answer to a possible gloved-driver question as more of an opinion than a given coming from LE. Hence my consternation over recent extrapolations here.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I think LE would find my glovebox more interesting...it is loaded and I do have a permit...so I keep my car cards elsewhere.

Too bad there was no latex glove found in the parking lot (ala the Grinstead case). But my point was that evidence of a wipe down, and the possibility of underlying prints being degraded by gloved hands, are not the same thing. And I viewed PB's post-revelation answer to a possible gloved-driver question as more of an opinion than a given coming from LE. Hence my consternation over recent extrapolations here. [/*]

I have asked that follow up.