Missing DA - Ray GRICAR Wkend 2/15 [Archive] - Page 2

gstickley

02-20-2008, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I think we're going to see that, much like some of the other mistakements made, that they really have no idea whether there was evidence of a wipe-down. I'm getting the vibe that one individual was prone to claims steeped in nothing more than wanting to look more on top of things than reality now indicates. [/*]

I think you're right.

But where were the supervisors, the chief? This certainly wasn't a one-man show, I would hope. Did DZ not have to report to anyone? If so, said person would surely check his reports. Were reports ever submitted to the DA? (Gawd, please don't think I'm defending DZ!!!)

And, didn't the PSP examine the vehicle?

(Just checkin' cause recently someone criticized any thought of 'conspiracy' by members of LE. Don't know if it was a conspiracy or just plain stupidity, but it sure stinks!!!)

Chump#7

02-20-2008, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Can anyone identify the others present with DZ? [/*]

Let's see... That's definitely Ronald McDonald with the hair... Um,.. 'The Hamburgler'? Possibly Mayor McCheese in the foreground?

gstickley

02-20-2008, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Possibly, but we can see if we can get some answers. Every little bit of accurate information helps. [/*]

And, pray tell, how will we know if we are getting "accurate" information??? Thus far, it's possible many early press releases were inaccurate, information from LE to TG was inaccurate. Of course, maybe this means 'there were lots of stones left unturned."

gstickley

02-20-2008, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Chump#7

Let's see... That's definitely Ronald McDonald with the hair... Um,.. 'The Hamburgler'? Possibly Mayor McCheese in the foreground? [/*]

I was being serious.

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

I think you're right.

But where were the supervisors, the chief? This certainly wasn't a one-man show, I would hope. Did DZ not have to report to anyone? If so, said person would surely check his reports. Were reports ever submitted to the DA? (Gawd, please don't think I'm defending DZ!!!)

And, didn't the PSP examine the vehicle?

(Just checkin' cause recently someone criticized any thought of 'conspiracy' by members of LE. Don't know if it was a conspiracy or just plain stupidity, but it sure stinks!!!) [/*]

One thing is that the PSP did put this in their reports; those were not available to the press until about a week ago.

The question that I have is the distribution of those reports. TG didn't have them. It's possible that MM didn't have them (or the DA's Office before him).

Politigal

02-20-2008, 05:45 PM

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Not by name, but I seem to recall that two were PSP. Thal was around, but not sure if he's in the pic. I was standing about 25' away when the photo was taken (my Jeep is between the two on the left). I did note that all of the others had there hands in their pockets or head down...listening to the Z-guru, I suppose (fair or not).

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 06:23 PM

We did get a partial answer on the prints:

That's a good question, and may not be one I can answer sufficiently just yet. Primarily it appears there was no "wipe down" of prints because whoever was trying to destroy fingerprints would have hit the obvious areas, like the driver's side door handle. That didn't happen, as we know police lifted a print from that door handle, even though it was not of such quality it could be identified. State police did the investigation of the interior and made no mention of any indications someone had "wiped down" the interior. Evidence of a wipe down — and I'm told there would be evidence of that — is not mentioned in their report at all, according to the new lead investigator, Detective Matt Rickard. I say again, if you were trying to wipe out fingerprints, wouldn't you wipe down the driver's side door? That wasn't done here. We know Gricar's fingerprint was found on the exterior driver's side window, perhaps aided by the fine layer of dust covering the Mini Cooper from that parking lot in which it was found. And there was a fingerprint lifted from the driver's side door handle, which is the first thing I would have wiped down if I was trying to get rid of evidence. I hope to see the former lead investigator in the near future, to ask him some questions now nagging at me. Specifically, what did the former lead investigator base that conclusion on, that there was no "wipe down?" Taking a guess, I would assume there were plenty of smudged prints that were not even close to being worth lifting, or dust in the car to indicate no one hastily wiped down anything.
Pete Bosak 2/20/08

PB's "guess" sounds likely. If it is correct, whomever was the last driver didn't care about leaving prints.

Now gloves are another matter. ;)

It looks like PB's flu cleared up rapidly. :)

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snip>
PB's "guess" sounds likely. If it is correct, whomever was the last driver didn't care about leaving prints. Now gloves are another matter. ;) I ask again, Is there no such thing as 'consistent with' or 'inconsistent with' when it came to comparing the lifted prints to RG's? Also, what other forensic evidence did the PSP find, other than cigarette ash and a water bottle?

tonyGricar

02-20-2008, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
I think you're right.

But where were the supervisors, the chief? This certainly wasn't a one-man show, I would hope. Did DZ not have to report to anyone? If so, said person would surely check his reports. Were reports ever submitted to the DA? (Gawd, please don't think I'm defending DZ!!!)

And, didn't the PSP examine the vehicle?

(Just checkin' cause recently someone criticized any thought of 'conspiracy' by members of LE. Don't know if it was a conspiracy or just plain stupidity, but it sure stinks!!!) [/*]I'll assume you aren't actually defining who was in attendance by one photograph? I definitely wouldn't even try to judge the scene by that pic. Satellite trucks, reporters, numerous LE, were all around. Short of the vehicle being returned too soon, I have no complaints on how the Lewisburg end of things went, especially considering I was there for much of it, working directly with them.

Yes, the PSP processed the vehicle, and then returned it when they were finished with it (and not at the behest of anyone).

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I ask again, Is there no such thing as 'consistent with' or 'inconsistent with' when it came to comparing the lifted prints to RG's? Also, what other forensic evidence did the PSP find, other than cigarette ash and a water bottle? [/*]

I think dust/smudged prints would be evidence that there was no wipe down.

S1, you are free to ask PB questions. :)

gstickley

02-20-2008, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I'll assume you aren't actually defining who was in attendance by one photograph? I definitely wouldn't even try to judge the scene by that pic. Satellite trucks, reporters, numerous LE, were all around. Short of the vehicle being returned too soon, I have no complaints on how the Lewisburg end of things went, especially considering I was there for much of it, working directly with them.

Yes, the PSP processed the vehicle, and then returned it when they were finished with it (and not at the behest of anyone). [/*]

Just wanted to know who they were, nothing more. Wasn't around to 'get to know' who was whom.

I'd also think PSP would have submitted a report of their findings to BPD, said report should have been on file with BPD. Hard to 'just make a mistake' about what the report said.

The latest development about "mistakements" on the fingerprints, in addition to the year-late information on the possible MW & 'construction-type' worker & vehicle, boggles the mind!

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think dust/smudged prints would be evidence that there was no wipe down. S1, you are free to ask PB questions. :) My experience with EN and PB has been about 20-80...but I do continue to try, if anonymously.

Politigal

02-20-2008, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I think dust/smudged prints would be evidence that there was no wipe down.

S1, you are free to ask PB questions. :) [/*]

That was the *exterior* of the car

day2day

02-20-2008, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I did note that all of the others had there hands in their pockets or head down...listening to the Z-guru, I suppose (fair or not). [/*]

Z-guru-perfect!!

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Not by name, but I seem to recall that two were PSP. Thal was around, but not sure if he's in the pic. I was standing about 25' away when the photo was taken (my Jeep is between the two on the left). What about TT, the actual BPD detective? He appears to have been "in it" from the beginning. There are sparse quotes from him along the way. But he has been too silent, too long, for me (realizing he need not answer to me).

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

That was the *exterior* of the car [/*]

I repeat:

State police did the investigation of the interior and made no mention of any indications someone had "wiped down" the interior.

You do understand that "interior" means "inside?"

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by day2day
Z-guru-perfect!! Thanks d2d. But then again, I cannot believe I typed 'there' for 'their' (it's a PSU vs. OSU thingy)! You would understand.

Politigal

02-20-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I repeat:

State police did the investigation of the interior and made no mention of any indications someone had "wiped down" the interior.

You do understand that "interior" means "inside?" [/*]

You do understand "made no mention" doesn't convey anything....other than the fact ....it wasn't mentioned.

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
You do understand "made no mention" doesn't convey anything....other than the fact ....it wasn't mentioned. I would like to see the PSP report on the Mini made public, along with other things (previously mentioned).

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

You do understand "made no mention" doesn't convey anything....other than the fact ....it wasn't mentioned. [/*]

Let's see the report didn't mention that:

1. Amelia Earhart was in the trunk.

2. Judge Crater was napping in the back seat.

3. There was severed arm as a hood ornament.

Why not? Because there wasn't evidence of any of these things. A wipe down should have produced evidence; that evidence, from what we're getting so far, isn't there.

Now gloves might be different.

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Let's see the report didn't mention that:
1. Amelia Earhart was in the trunk.
2. Judge Crater was napping in the back seat.
3. There was severed arm as a hood ornament.
Why not? Because there wasn't evidence of any of these things. A wipe down should have produced evidence; that evidence, from what we're getting so far, isn't there. Now gloves might be different. So...you have seen the report then?

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 09:29 PM

You know...I remember reading the most intimate details in the CDT in (I believe it was) the Paxson case. I have yet to read one official document in the Gricar case.

Politigal

02-20-2008, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
So...you have seen the report then? [/*]

you're so wicked :tongue:

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
So...you have seen the report then? [/*]

No, but I know what isn't in it. Any of those things would be reported as would things like evidence of a wipe down.

Are claiming that, Amelia Earhart, Judge crater and a severed arm were in or around the Mini?

Now, gloves, as I've said, are a different matter.

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
you're so wicked :tongue: I know! Just slap me upside of the head...for asking. I am used to it. MOO

Politigal

02-20-2008, 09:43 PM

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Whomever was the last driver didn't care about leaving RG's prints.......
Why would someone wanting it to look like RG was the last one to drive the car be foolish enough to wipe away RG's prints? [/*]

Because they would, potentially, be leaving evidence that someone other than RFG drove the car.

The only real question that I have is, if a driver wore gloves, could LE determine that?

You also have to remember something; there is no way that a driver could have known if RFG's prints were in the car or where they were.

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 10:24 PM

Before I would sign on to complex planning, I would consider the most elemental of possibilities. JMOO

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Not if the person didn't touch the driver's door handle. There would be no need to do so, considering the Mini had a passenger door to enter and exit from.

Trying to crawl across a seat could very easily leave more evidence, fibers, hair, scuff marks, disturbed dust, even foot prints on the seat.

No problem if everything was handled just the same way LE handles evidence, and knows exactly what LE would be looking for.

Except, of course, no one would have known which LE organization would have found the car and I'd expect there to different SOP in each jurisdiction. The PSP just happened on it at 6:30 PM; It could have just as easily been the Lewisburg PB.

If the steering wheel and the gearshift were textured, a pattern may be hard to discern.

Where is the gear shift in the Mini? Between the seats? Is there some divider between the seats? Wouldn't that be an obstacle to someone crossing to the passenger side (if there).

The most likely place to discern a pattern would be on the cell phone, which hopefully was 'fumed' to pick up the max. Easy then to just argue it was LE glove print, especially if it was a perfect 'match'.
JMO [/*]

And how would be a "perfect match" if the driver doesn't know if LE will touch the area, which LE agency will be touching it, or which gloves will be used. I'd pick it up by the antenna.

Serendipitous1

02-20-2008, 10:54 PM

Well, surely the vaunted PSP recognized the "carnage" caused by several unsuccessful attempts to toss the laptop out of the Mini...unless maybe RG imagined seeing Franco Harris, teetering on the parapet. JMOO

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Adding to that, I wonder if the office number was keyed in on RG's phone so the numbers wouldn't be pushed at all, just the search and send keys.
AND wondering it LE checked to see whether any of the keys had any marks on them from a pencil, pen, a 'point', a toothpick for that matter, possibly used to press the keys rather than smearing existing prints on the pads.

That would leave RG's prints on the phone, while leaving the minimal amount of evidence that might not be picked up on.
No need to hold the phone to do it and no proof on the other end of who answered, who didn't, hang up or whatever.....
JMO [/*]

The caller would have to open it, however.

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

What a long crawl you are describing...... ALL the way across a Mini-cooper?
Any fiber on the passenger seat or anywhere else for that matter would have been quickly eliminated as, of course, having been there prior to.

I'm not describing a long one, only one gliding over a gear shift or a parking break, that divider where the drive shaft is. All those nice little obstacles that can prevent someone from sliding across the seat. Now, I'm also trying to imagine doing this in darkness as some people have suggested and then trying to remove all the traces. It is not impossibly, but it is hard and it is much harder not to leave some evidence of it.

IIRC, as soon as the car was found in the lot, Z hightailed it down to Lewisburg, likely with the keys. Didn't he say when the car door was opened it smelled strongly of smoke? Are you saying he wasn't in charge and didn't collect the phone?

I would be very surprised if he reached in and grabbed it. I'm also not sure if they waited to open the car until he came up with the keys.

Just because PSP did questioning, testing, K-9 units called in, as did FBI, CIA, whomever...... BPD was still in charge. I doubt for one minute that car would have been removed from the lot before the dogs were brought in if PSP had really been in charge.

I know that in some larger departments, Johnstown for example, they won't do anything at a crime scene, other than secure it, until the PSP shows up.

J. J. in Phila

02-20-2008, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

What would LE use to open it with? [/*]

Possibly nothing until they got the prints, if any, from the outside.

The caller however would have to open it in order to make the call; we do know, beyond doubt, that a call was made from the phone.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
You know...I remember reading the most intimate details in the CDT in (I believe it was) the Paxson case. I have yet to read one official document in the Gricar case. [/*]Much to Joe's consternation, I'm sure...

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
IIRC, as soon as the car was found in the lot, Z hightailed it down to Lewisburg, likely with the keys. Didn't he say when the car door was opened it smelled strongly of smoke? Are you saying he wasn't in charge and didn't collect the phone?
Judging from all of the news articles and the photos, I don't recall anytime BPD wasn't in charge early on, including refusing to let locals search. Centre County's 'own' came in to do it.

Am I saying BPD told PSP what to do? Yep...I think they did. Z called the shots and overruled PSP when it suited his 'best interest'.
JMO [/*]I'm not entirely certain that Z was even present when the car was opened. I know that he did not smell the smoke, as the odor was reported by the PSP office who first opened the car. Z specifically told me that the PSP reported the smell. The PSP handled all processing of the car, not BPD.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

All of the cell phones I have had, have a spring action when opening and closing so minimal push needed to get it to the flipping point.

Neither of mine are the communicator from Star Trek and can't be opened by flipping it. A pen won't open it, but a knife blade will. Unfortunately, holding it by the antenna, it hits the back of my hand when I open it. I also have to hold it fairly tightly ou I just end up pushing it around.

Anyone who wanted to leave RG's prints on the phone could have done so without touching it, and if they had gloves on at the time, even if there was a slip, likely it wouldn't damage all of the prints on the phone. Might smear some, but not likely all.

It's fairly likely that there would be both smearing and a DNA, except in the latter case, if a glove was worn.

Likewise, I'd expect smearing if RFG used it.

Of course, getting the cellphone to the Brush Valley area would very likely cause smearing on the outside, even if carefully placed in a plastic container.

sherrijean981

02-21-2008, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My experience with EN and PB has been about 20-80...but I do continue to try, if anonymously. [/*]

That's the problem then with the 20-80. Quote: "if anonymously" Quote

You need to let him know that you are one of the gang on RG's Forum. Seems to get quick results as not many others are asking any. JJ just ask yesterday and PB has answered a couple questions today. JMO

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Did the Mini happen to have a cell phone holder?

http://www.motoringfile.com/2004/12/14/mini_phone_console_univeral_holder_review/ [/*]

From the same article:

"However one thing that the MINI (especially the pre-2005 models) does not possess is an over abundance of interior storage space."

This was a pre-2005 model. Even if it was in, either a second caller or RFG would have had to put it in the holder.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

That doesn't mean there wasn't one put in the Mini.
IF there was and RG put it in the holder, then simple for anyone to call from it without ever laying a hand on it, which is what you were previously stating, 'someone had to open it'.
Not true if the Mini had a cell phone holder.
JMO [/*]

Well, it's unlike that there was one, but I did want to note the lack of space. Even with a holder, someone would have had to have opened it and placed it in there.

Now we have a strange scenario where RFG puts the phone into the hypothetical holder and someone else uses it. :rolleyes:

Using Occam's Razor, the most likely explanation was RFG made the call.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by logicworks
I took the 'we' in the following interview to mean Z was present at the time, considering he said the odor dissipated quickly and that WE recovered ash. 'Odor dissipated quickly' sounds like a statement coming from someone who was there, a personal observation made by Z not a report from PSP.
*]"We" likely was meant in the collective sense, but BPD probably dealt with the phone (so who knows now what that really means in terms of processing). I specifically recall Z telling us it was the PSP tech who smelled the very faint smoke smell. By "dissipated" quickly, it's probably because he didn't smell it.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by logicworks
Did the Mini happen to have a cell phone holder?
[/*]Not that I recall.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by logicworks
Why is it unlikely for a neat, organized person to have a cell phone holder?
JMO [/*]Because their unattractive, intrusive design takes away from the visual aesthetics that is the Mini?

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 01:56 PM

After talking with some people, I now understand where some of you are coming from on this "demand" to turn the car over, although I think there's a serious spin being applied to your interpretations. Some (LE included) wanted the car to be released and placed back at the parking lot in case Ray should return. The PSP was done with the car, which is why this was requested. The PSP would not have released it unless they were finished with their work. Placing the car back in the lot turned out to not be feasible due to LE, local and national media, and volunteers swarming the place for a few/several days.

Fwiw, my Father's vehicle was never processed, but the car was left there for another day or so in case of a return or anything suspicious.

Cinderella

02-21-2008, 04:19 PM

Let's do the Patty twist. Everyone join in and do the Patty twist. Every investigation has media and publicity and this case wasn't any different. PF had a second car, she didn't need the "Mini" back right away.

Lets do the twist once again.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 04:39 PM

Politigal

02-21-2008, 05:02 PM

Sometimes this case is like a big da*n game...but there are never any winners.

There are so many secrets and behind the scenes bull sh*t....it's really frustrating.

I'll spill the beans here...

Yes - several of us *have* contacted Pete Bosak and *yes* Pete Bosak said that the Pennsylvania State Police wanted to leave Gricar's Mini in the lot, to see if anyone came back for it. But, that Zaccagni "worshipped the ground Patty walked on" and made sure she got it back quickly.

There - I've said it.

Pete is pi**ed off at me for talking with Tony about it in a pm.

Tony sent him an angry email.

Cinderella is pi**ed off at me for talking with Pete about it.

Tony pm'd me that Pete was wrong.

Who the HEL* knows what's true in this case any more.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
Sometimes this case is like a big da*n game...but there are never any winners.

There are so many secrets and behind the scenes bull sh*t....it's really frustrating. [/*]Sadly, if a game is your interpretation, so be it. Everything is not for public consumption. I've been aware of the car issue, however not in the way some of you have framed it. So be it. By the way some of you positioned Pete's comments, assertions were incorrect.

I didn't send him an angry email, I asked for a clarification because I've had some of you here contact me offline on this. The game, that appears to have developed, is some of you seem to be attempting to become a part of this case, whether you're willing to recognize it or not, and that is truly sad.

I'm really not going to continue this debate. If LE wants to release anything on the matter, that's their prerogative, but this pissing contest of trying to one-up each other on who has the best dirt is ridiculous.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Let's do the Patty twist. Everyone join in and do the Patty twist. Every investigation has media and publicity and this case wasn't any different. PF had a second car, she didn't need the "Mini" back right away.

Lets do the twist once again. [/*]Celebrating 1000* posts of clear stability...

----------------
Cinderella
Posts: 1000
"I think that Ray is alive and out there."
"I think that this has been a hoax from day 1. I think that some of the family members also know this. I hope that they do not know because if they know and are coming on here to keep the "Big Secret" up then I have no kind words for them. As for Tony going out of the Country, I would like to know where. Maybe he needs to be followed."
----------------

*post count not inclusive of posts deleted via user's own request or deletion due to violations of the TOS

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
Sometimes this case is like a big da*n game...but there are never any winners.

There are so many secrets and behind the scenes bull sh*t....it's really frustrating.

I'll spill the beans here...

Yes - several of us *have* contacted Pete Bosak and *yes* Pete Bosak said that the Pennsylvania State Police wanted to leave Gricar's Mini in the lot, to see if anyone came back for it. But, that Zaccagni "worshipped the ground Patty walked on" and made sure she got it back quickly.

There - I've said it.

Why you've said isn't what Cinderalla claimed. She claimed that:

Originally posted by Cinderella
What if Ray just happened to go someplace and come back and get into his car. Why would she not leave the car there until the PSP were through with it? Wouldn't a soul mate want all the information on what happened to their soul mate? barf [/*]

The PSP were through with it.

There is a difference between getting evidence from the Mini and leaving the Mini in the parking lot (your claim). Those are two very different things.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
I'll spill the beans here...

Yes - several of us *have* contacted Pete Bosak and *yes* Pete Bosak said that the Pennsylvania State Police wanted to leave Gricar's Mini in the lot, to see if anyone came back for it. But, that Zaccagni "worshipped the ground Patty walked on" and made sure she got it back quickly.

Tony sent him an angry email.

There - I've said it.
[/*]I begrudgingly will post this, but I have a very difficult time watching you post something that creates an image, or alludes to something, that is 100% incorrect. This is my email to PB. Lemme know how this is categorized as "Tony sent him an angry email.". Better yet... don't. I really don't care to play your game of telephone. Whatever you send back and forth with another party is not something I'm comfortable with reading, regardless of who it is. There's a reason that PMs are PMs and offboard emails are offboard emails, last I knew.

"Angry" Email:

Just received another email from politigal (aka real name removed) re: your apparent email correspondance confirming that a PSP source told you that Patty apparently demanded that the Mini Cooper be turned over to her as quickly as it did. Am I missing something?

End of "Angry" Email

Politigal

02-21-2008, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I begrudgingly will post this, but I have a very difficult time watching you post something that creates an image, or alludes to something, that is 100% incorrect. This is my email to PB. Lemme know how this is categorized as "Tony sent him an angry email.". Better yet... don't. I really don't care to play your game of telephone. Whatever you send back and forth with another party is not something I'm comfortable with reading, regardless of who it is. There's a reason that PMs are PMs and offboard emails are offboard emails, last I knew.

"Angry" Email:

Just received another email from politigal (aka real name removed) re: your apparent email correspondance confirming that a PSP source told you that Patty apparently demanded that the Mini Cooper be turned over to her as quickly as it did. Am I missing something?

End of "Angry" Email [/*]

I didn't see your email to Pete but he classed it as angry.

day2day

02-21-2008, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
Sometimes this case is like a big da*n game...but there are never any winners.

There are so many secrets and behind the scenes bull sh*t....it's really frustrating.

I'll spill the beans here...

Yes - several of us *have* contacted Pete Bosak and *yes* Pete Bosak said that the Pennsylvania State Police wanted to leave Gricar's Mini in the lot, to see if anyone came back for it. But, that Zaccagni "worshipped the ground Patty walked on" and made sure she got it back quickly.

There - I've said it.

Pete is pi**ed off at me for talking with Tony about it in a pm.

Tony sent him an angry email.

Cinderella is pi**ed off at me for talking with Pete about it.

Tony pm'd me that Pete was wrong.

Who the HEL* knows what's true in this case any more. [/*]

I have to agree pgal. I have been here nearly three years..spent WAY too much time here..and feel like most of the time i have been fed sh$t and am expected to swallow it and like it.

Most of us just want the truth and can't even get that...hammer

Politigal

02-21-2008, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
~snipped~ The game, that appears to have developed, is some of you seem to be attempting to become a part of this case, whether you're willing to recognize it or not, and that is truly sad.

[/*]

Do you feel this forum should not be here?

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
I didn't see your email to Pete but he classed it as angry. [/*]That would be your fault, not his, because you took it upon yourself to air it on the board.

Politigal

02-21-2008, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
That would be your fault, not his, because you took it upon yourself to air it on the board. [/*]

That makes no sense...

but whatever.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

I didn't see your email to Pete but he classed it as angry. [/*]

I wouldn't classify it as "angry," though perhaps a bit perturbed.

There were basically two separate events.

1. The processing of the Mini for evidence.

2. Staking out the car.

Cind referred to #1 and I have never ever heard even a suggestion that PEF wanted the Mini returned to her quickly after that.

Cind also claimed that PEF became "angry" when RFG was discussed; I've never ever heard even a suggestion about that either. I've hear that she tears up and is sad, but not "angry."

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

That makes no sense...

but whatever. [/*]I'm not surprised you choose to not understand it.

You took bad information, ostensibly given to you in confidence, and were in error yet again, this time trying to create an image of me that is not correct.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
The game, that appears to have developed, is some of you seem to be attempting to become a part of this case, whether you're willing to recognize it or not, and that is truly sad.

Some of us became part of this case because of the over-hype by JKA. Sorry to say it, but it's true.

barf

Politigal

02-21-2008, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Some of us became part of this case because of the over-hype by JKA. Sorry to say it, but it's true.

barf [/*]

that is such a crock JJ

I'd venture a guess that more people post because of your actions than JKA's.

Cinderella

02-21-2008, 07:36 PM

Pgal,

I know that you are telling the truth. For whatever reason, TG denies it. He denies anything wrong about what PEF's has done. Most everyone takes her part.

Then again this is PF's story and timeline. PF sure knows how to mesmorize most of the men. The only poster that I saw that wasn't believing it was LAWS.

Everything PF does is handled with kid gloves and sugar coated.

Oh sorry, I got sick to my stomach and threw up. barf

TG a word for you, your dad had a disease and yet you call or act like others are mental. Does that make you feel good. You never know as it runs in family's and there isn't anything that you can do about it. Hopefully it won't happen to you.

BTW, I am still waiting for the apartment in Bellefonte e-mail. Wouldn't it be reasonable that I would lead the Police there? If I was showing SJ around don't you think that she would want to know about the apartment if I stated it. NEVER SAID IT.

IT'S PF's STORY AND TIMELINE AND I HAVE TO STICK TO IT AND WHAT SHE TELLS EVERYONE.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Some of us became part of this case because of the over-hype by JKA. Sorry to say it, but it's true.

barf [/*]People over-parse instead of trying to comprehend the base meaning. I understand what you're saying, and yes, it's always been somewhat troubling.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
TG a word for you, your dad had a disease and yet you call or act like others are mental. Does that make you feel good. You never know as it runs in family's and there isn't anything that you can do about it. Hopefully it won't happen to you. [/*]"Others", as you say, are dealing with various mental challenges. You'll get no argument from me on that, and for that I have great sympathy. But... compassion begets compassion, illness or no illness. Truth be told, I've even had a couple of family members of one board member contact me off-line to warn me of certain behavioural patterns.

The ability to move one's fingers around a keyboard does not give an overriding license to dispense libelous commments as they see fit. First amendment, ToS loopholes, whatever... there are always consequences.

Cinderella

02-21-2008, 07:52 PM

Am I supposed to take that as a threat? Well I don't and whatever it takes getting to the truth to find my DA then that is what I will do.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 07:55 PM

To answer your question Pgal, it wouldn't bother me in the least, but it would be a shame. I'd still be having discussions with the same people, I just wouldn't have the annoyance of static that seems to crop up on this board (no, ironically enough, I don't consider you to be static). Ultimately, I have no say in the existence of this board, so it's really neither here nor there.

Now, if anyone has anything that's actually case-related that they would like to discuss, I'll be more than happy to comment as I can.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

that is such a crock JJ

I'd venture a guess that more people post because of your actions than JKA's. [/*]

I'm not ever referring to posters, but if I've helped raise interest in this case, I'm quite happy about that. :)

No, sorry you don't understand. On 7/11/07, I did not have the attention of the press. By 8/11/07, I start getting contacted by a few people. :rolleyes:

Now within about six months of that, I have an "analytical mind." :rolleyes:

I will say this, new and important information has come out in recent weeks. I went on to the State College board a few days ago, and there was nary a thing on it about those developments.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Am I supposed to take that as a threat? [/*]There are many outcomes of "consequence" that in no way pertain to threat. "Conscience" is just one of those, but thanks for showing your depth...

Cinderella

02-21-2008, 08:03 PM

We both see different views. Let us just stop the communication as we will not see things eye to eye. Keep your eyes on PF and that will make me happy.

Politigal

02-21-2008, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
To answer your question Pgal, it wouldn't bother me in the least, but it would be a shame. I'd still be having discussions with the same people, I just wouldn't have the annoyance of static that seems to crop up on this board (no, ironically enough, I don't consider you to be static). Ultimately, I have no say in the existence of this board, so it's really neither here nor there.

Now, if anyone has anything that's actually case-related that they would like to discuss, I'll be more than happy to comment as I can. [/*]

If there were no fingerprints in the MINI as reported, and no calls made out on RG's phone (other than the call to Patty) on that Friday, and none of the witness sightings can be corroborated in any form or fashion, and the dogs didn't find RG's scent anywhere away from the parking lot where the car had been, why do you feel that RG actually was in Lewisburg that day?

Cinderella

02-21-2008, 08:04 PM

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 08:07 PM

Politigal

02-21-2008, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You've started with incorrect conclusions and moved on from there.

There was scent 20 yards from where the car was parked.

Numerous witnesses put RFG in Lewisburg.

Those two things are sufficient. [/*]

Do you think the flatbed that held the car in the parking lot could have moved 20 yards? yep

Numerous witness sightings could not be corroborated in any way. And the dogs didn't find RG's scent *outside* the parking lot.

You are simply wrong.

Serendipitous1

02-21-2008, 08:10 PM

This may not be exactly case related, but...

It seems as though every day is “Friday” anymore...here, in this forum. And I suppose it will get worse before it gets better. But it does not have to be that way.

Tony Gricar has repeatedly made it clear, what he would and would not do here...and why. I have tried to respect that. And I have tried to put myself in his (the family spokesperson’s) shoes, as he has asked here on more than one occasion. But I know I could never get to that particular place, because I have no true conception of the underlying tragedy which brought him here in the first place.

With every post he has made, I have learned something more about him. I am sure, in everyday life, he puts his pants on one leg at a time...just like the rest of us. But I am also quite certain he is the most invested person when it comes to this extraordinary situation.

There appear to be new (or perhaps just confirmation) clouds building over the investigation. I hope it somehow, in some way, produces something positive...even if not in furtherance of understanding the mystery of Ray Gricar’s disappearance. But before those clouds burst, I want to say there is no one I admire more than Anthony J. Gricar.

All just my own opinion.

Cinderella

02-21-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
To answer your question Pgal, it wouldn't bother me in the least, but it would be a shame. I'd still be having discussions with the same people, I just wouldn't have the annoyance of static that seems to crop up on this board (no, ironically enough, I don't consider you to be static). Ultimately, I have no say in the existence of this board, so it's really neither here nor there.

Now, if anyone has anything that's actually case-related that they would like to discuss, I'll be more than happy to comment as I can. [/*]

I guess that this means, lets talk about other things instead of discussing what we really want to discuss. Nice tactic of getting on another comfortable subject. My COMMENTS ONLY.

Pgal, you know the subject of differing from PF is a NO NO.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

If there were no fingerprints in the MINI as reported, and no calls made out on RG's phone (other than the call to Patty) on that Friday, and none of the witness sightings can be corroborated in any form or fashion, and the dogs didn't find RG's scent anywhere away from the parking lot where the car had been, why do you feel that RG actually was in Lewisburg that day? [/*]Given the preceding that you have laid out, he just as easily could have been there. Smudged fingerprints were in the car, but we can't say for sure they weren't Ray's. The multiple eyewitnesses can be categorized the same way. According to LE, the dog tracked for 25 yds (just posted it recently, so going from that memory), so even with your theory, which is novel, that a flatbed's length could have had something to do with it, it's not an absolute. To me, and maybe surprising to some of you, I don't care what happened that day, because it's a past event and I have no control over it. I only care that we find the reason for the outcome.

In shorter terms, nothing's an absolute from that day, which is why I don't look at any of it as such.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

If the board bothers you take a break. [/*]Seriously... you JUST posted this: "Let us just stop the communication as we will not see things eye to eye." one minute prior to your latest. Give it a rest...

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

Do you think the flatbed that held the car in the parking lot could have moved 20 yards? yep

Numerous witness sightings could not be corroborated in any way. And the dogs didn't find RG's scent *outside* the parking lot.

You are simply wrong. [/*]

I think the truck could have moved the Mini, but not the scent.

I think the numerous witness, as I've may not be 100% correct in every detail, but I do not believe they are 100% wrong either. For you to be correct, everybody else has to be wrong, and I believe them more than I believe you.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

Do you think the flatbed that held the car in the parking lot could have moved 20 yards? yep

And the dogs didn't find RG's scent *outside* the parking lot.

You are simply wrong. [/*]"Wrong" seems to be awfully subjective (correct me if I'm wrong) on the issue of scent. Wouldn't Ray getting into another car, forcibly or not, corroborate the scenting, and even witness info? Like everything else, given the unknowns, it comes down to interpretation of data. Makes for great debates, no?

Politigal

02-21-2008, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I think the truck could have moved the Mini, but not the scent.

I think the numerous witness, as I've may not be 100% correct in every detail, but I do not believe they are 100% wrong either. For you to be correct, everybody else has to be wrong, and I believe them more than I believe you. [/*]

Gricar was reported missing Friday night. Police put out their BOL Saturday morning, and it made the news that Saturday.

Don't you think it's odd that no witnesses saw Gricar, until it was reported that his car had been located?

Politigal

02-21-2008, 08:32 PM

and I hate to keep beating a dead horse....

but Gricar's scent was *not* found - in the Street of Shops

*not* found in the park

*not* found by the river

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

Gricar was reported missing Friday night. Police put out their BOL Saturday morning, and it made the news that Friday.

Don't you think it's odd that no witnesses saw Gricar, until it was reported that his car had been located? [/*]Given what I've observed in Lewisburg on such weekends, and that most weren't "locals", I'm not surprised at all. It's the same reason that most current PSU students I've talked to have no idea who RFG is. The locals do, the "transient" population does not. That weekend in Lewisburg, was definitely a highly transient group.

It should be noted that none of the witnesses were of that out-of-towner group. They had other things going on, which likely didn't include being holed up in their hotel/dorm rooms watching the local news. The others only came forward through canvassing or contacting LE, which even if the parents in town saw him, they may never have heard of the investigation.

Fwiw, I think all of the Lewisburg "witnesses" came about due to LE canvassing.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

There appear to be new (or perhaps just confirmation) clouds building over the investigation. I hope it somehow, in some way, produces something positive...even if not in furtherance of understanding the mystery of Ray Gricar’s disappearance. But before those clouds burst, I want to say there is no one I admire more than Anthony J. Gricar.

I agree. In the few other cases with which I am familiar, I have never seen anyone try so hard (or put up with as much mindless abuse) as Tony Gricar.

tonyGricar

02-21-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
and I hate to keep beating a dead horse....

but Gricar's scent was *not* found - in the Street of Shops

*not* found in the park

*not* found by the river [/*]Which is why I brought up the "other car" scenario. It's not that I even subscribe to one theory or another, meaning I don't disagree with you, but in the spirit of objectivity in processing the information we do have, it's got to be on the other side of the coin.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 08:39 PM

Politigal

02-21-2008, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

But it was found in Lewisburg; I hate to keep beating that dead horse. [/*]

where his vehicle was

Politigal

02-21-2008, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Which is why I brought up the "other car" scenario. It's not that I even subscribe to one theory or another, meaning I don't disagree with you, but in the spirit of objectivity in processing the information we do have, it's got to be on the other side of the coin. [/*]

Do others in the family look at everything as objectively as you?

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

Gricar was reported missing Friday night. Police put out their BOL Saturday morning, and it made the news that Saturday.

Don't you think it's odd that no witnesses saw Gricar, until it was reported that his car had been located? [/*]

They put it out after the news on Friday 4/15.

Do you have any idea what little news coverage there is in Central Pennsylvania on a Saturday? In Lewisburg itself?

LE didn't have a news conference until mid afternoon on 4/16. There wasn't any television coverage until 6:00 PM and it would have been in a different media market. I'm not too sure that the story would have been covered by the Susquehanna stations at that time.

NBC wasn't flying in Brian Williams for the story.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

where his vehicle was [/*]

20 yards away from it.

Politigal

02-21-2008, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

20 yards away from it. [/*]

tell us Mr Analytical ---

It was reported the dog lost RG's scent 20 yds from where the car had been.

In what direction did they find RG's scent???

day2day

02-21-2008, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
This may not be exactly case related, but...

It seems as though every day is “Friday” anymore...here, in this forum. And I suppose it will get worse before it gets better. But it does not have to be that way.

Tony Gricar has repeatedly made it clear, what he would and would not do here...and why. I have tried to respect that. And I have tried to put myself in his (the family spokesperson’s) shoes, as he has asked here on more than one occasion. But I know I could never get to that particular place, because I have no true conception of the underlying tragedy which brought him here in the first place.

With every post he has made, I have learned something more about him. I am sure, in everyday life, he puts his pants on one leg at a time...just like the rest of us. But I am also quite certain he is the most invested person when it comes to this extraordinary situation.

There appear to be new (or perhaps just confirmation) clouds building over the investigation. I hope it somehow, in some way, produces something positive...even if not in furtherance of understanding the mystery of Ray Gricar’s disappearance. But before those clouds burst, I want to say there is no one I admire more than Anthony J. Gricar.

All just my own opinion. [/*]

:beer: I also respect him and HATE hate HATE to see him belittled. This man has sacrificed SO much in his life....WE should be thanking him for being so available to answer the questions that he can -instead of condemning him!

Thanks S1 for a great post!

day2day

02-21-2008, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

If the board bothers you take a break. [/*]

Cind..
Why the baiting posts? YOU claim to care for Mr. Gricar yet anytime YOU get "out of sorts" YOU choose to attack the SINGLE human being who has fought endlessly and lost MUCH for the truth.

IMO if there was ONE shred of evidence that PF had ANYTHING to do with Mr. Gricar's vanishing -TG would be the FIRST in line to see that she was brought to justice.

day2day

02-21-2008, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

20 yards away from it. [/*]

And what was used to scent the dogs?:D

Cinderella

02-21-2008, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Cind..
Why the baiting posts? YOU claim to care for Mr. Gricar yet anytime YOU get "out of sorts" YOU choose to attack the SINGLE human being who has fought endlessly and lost MUCH for the truth.

IMO if there was ONE shred of evidence that PF had ANYTHING to do with Mr. Gricar's vanishing -TG would be the FIRST in line to see that she was brought to justice. [/*]

Day, I do have a problem with PF. I believe she is one of the reasons that this case has been messed up since day 1. She frustrates me because it seems that everyone is being taken in by her. She has switched stories many times. At first I overlooked it, but then I couldn't overlook it anymore. There is a man that say Ray in the morning of April 15 at 7:30 a.m. No one has said anything about him yet. Carolyn Fentons assertions were dismissed. PF didn't believe that CF saw Ray, but maybe have seen someone that looks like Ray. She stated that Kevin Flannigan TV 10 action news reminds her so much of Ray.

She knows more than she is saying. This case will never be solved until everyone close to Ray is looked at. I don't think that this is the case.

I am very please with the work that Detective Rickard has done and Pete Bosak as well. I don't know if any clues were lost or not. One thing about Pete, he has to be very careful as to what he say given the situation. So he has his hands tied. He would never be able to say anything that might make someone look bad.

I believe that this site will never find the information given that certain people sidetrack it to what they want to say. You can see the repetition here of who says what and who can say what. It just sickens me that everyone is spoon fed while we have our DA missing. He is more important to me than TG or PF.

I certainly don't believe that this board is fair as in saying what you really want to say without being jumped on.

If I am correct, then I believe that if this happened in my family that TG would question someone like PF. Here if you do that then you are labeled. I think for myself and I don't care what anyone else wants me to think.

I really know don't believe that this case will ever be solved as key leaders are holding it up.

I still say that there was no reason for PF to let the mini sit there longer. Instead she wanted her way. What else did she have to have her way with?

I just can't wait until the money is release and see all the fighting to get what she wants. I believe then the story may change. She is smart in keeping on the good side now.
JUST MY OPINIONS ONLY

You are right as this case make me sick. barf

I will not be doing anything for the anniversary, I would think that the soul mate knows more than I do. Maybe she will do something.

Day, I am just going to let it go. Notice Pgal used to come out against PF, she isn't allowed anymore. If the family isn't buying it, then no wonder that LE aren't buying things either.

Always suspecious of PF"S statemens. Now you know why people don't bother telling LE anything.

Another thing it is supposed that PF might have thought that Ray was still out there. Asking him to come home. How could he do that when she took the car. God forbid if he did decide to go to a baseball game again. The perputrator might have come back to the car also. Oh well. Enough said.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

tell us Mr Analytical ---

It was reported the dog lost RG's scent 20 yds from where the car had been.

In what direction did they find RG's scent??? [/*]

IIRC, from the parking lot size and the placement of the car, not toward the exit of the parking lot. The Mini looks like it was less than 20 yards from the street. (Kinda blows your flatbed theory.)

Pretending the lot is exactly oriented to the four compass points (it isn't), the trail doesn't look like it could have gone 20 yards south, east, or west. Due north is possible, but that wouldn't be the bath of the truck. My guess would be SE or NE. If I had to make a guess, NE, basically opposite the Street of Shops.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by logicworks
This week's revelations..........

2. the PSP wanted the car to remain in the lot, and were overruled by PF, who didn't want it to remain there, with Z's
back-up.

I don't think TG said that. He said that by the car was moved news crews were there. The effectiveness is questionable.

Of course, if someone was worried that evidence was found, he would have wanted the car to remain. Things like moisture can damage finger prints and leaving the Mini could make evidence more difficult to collect.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

She has switched stories many times.

And, where did she do that? I frankly have heard LE change their story, but not PEF.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by day2day

And what was used to scent the dogs?:D [/*]

I would strongly suspect an article of RFG's clothing, not selected by PEF. ;)

I would suggest that if you have a theory otherwise, you would be wise to prepare to change it.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

When was the dog tracking/trailing report released to you? [/*]

Mid-1970's, when I had high school geometry.

I looked at a photo of the approximate location of the car, that TG was nice enough to provide to all of us. The Mini was 3-4 spaces in. Each space was, at most, 4 yards wide (probably closer to 3. Even at 4 yards wide, that comes out to 16 yards (probably closer to 12 yards).

Knowing that the street is approximately straight, the Mini was about 16 yards (or less) in, it was fairly simple to come up with a rough guess. :)

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Little to do with effectiveness.
Much to do with control. [/*]

The only effective control for someone trying to hide evidence is to persuade LE to let the Mini sit for a while and hope that moisture might turn the finger prints into blobs (which they already were, but no one could have known that).

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

What he was wearing was released immediately, and we were told PF knew because she went through his clothing. How did LE know which clothing she touched and which she didn't? Was a test done at the Barracks prior to verifying there was no contamination? [/*]

What he was wearing, the last time he was out was known, who said that the clothing was gone through before the dogs were scented. Also, are you suggesting that she wore all of his clothing or that her scent was so overpowering that it masked his? :rolleyes:

day2day

02-21-2008, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I would strongly suspect an article of RFG's clothing, not selected by PEF. ;)

I would suggest that if you have a theory otherwise, you would be wise to prepare to change it. [/*]

Did i say i had a theory? I am pretty stinkin sure I didn't. Hell, i don't know what has happened on this forum but the attitudes here are TERRIBLE.

I asked a simple question . JJ...it did not deserve your smart *** response.

And SINCE you are an insider ..i'm sure that you know who picked the clothing out ;)

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

And I suppose you think a flat bed loads a vehicle from the side.
Nopey, nope. Think again or better yet, show us the exact path from the tracking report. [/*]

See this number: 16. That is smaller than this number: 20.

I assume that a flatbed would load it from the front and drive the 16 (or less) yards to the lot. I would also assume, if the car was the source; the trail wouldn't magically stop in the parking lot.

Wanna try again? :biggrin:

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Last person to touch an item = top set of skin rafts dog scents. [/*]

Who told you that? You can get cross contamination, but there will be more skin rafts from someone wearing close for a wile than just a touch, which might to have occurred.

day2day

02-21-2008, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

Day, I do have a problem with PF. I believe she is one of the reasons that this case has been messed up since day 1. She frustrates me because it seems that everyone is being taken in by her. She has switched stories many times. At first I overlooked it, but then I couldn't overlook it anymore. There is a man that say Ray in the morning of April 15 at 7:30 a.m. No one has said anything about him yet. Carolyn Fentons assertions were dismissed. PF didn't believe that CF saw Ray, but maybe have seen someone that looks like Ray. She stated that Kevin Flannigan TV 10 action news reminds her so much of Ray.

She knows more than she is saying. This case will never be solved until everyone close to Ray is looked at. I don't think that this is the case.

I am very please with the work that Detective Rickard has done and Pete Bosak as well. I don't know if any clues were lost or not. One thing about Pete, he has to be very careful as to what he say given the situation. So he has his hands tied. He would never be able to say anything that might make someone look bad.

I believe that this site will never find the information given that certain people sidetrack it to what they want to say. You can see the repetition here of who says what and who can say what. It just sickens me that everyone is spoon fed while we have our DA missing. He is more important to me than TG or PF.

I certainly don't believe that this board is fair as in saying what you really want to say without being jumped on.

If I am correct, then I believe that if this happened in my family that TG would question someone like PF. Here if you do that then you are labeled. I think for myself and I don't care what anyone else wants me to think.

I really know don't believe that this case will ever be solved as key leaders are holding it up.

I still say that there was no reason for PF to let the mini sit there longer. Instead she wanted her way. What else did she have to have her way with?

I just can't wait until the money is release and see all the fighting to get what she wants. I believe then the story may change. She is smart in keeping on the good side now.
JUST MY OPINIONS ONLY

You are right as this case make me sick. barf

I will not be doing anything for the anniversary, I would think that the soul mate knows more than I do. Maybe she will do something.

Day, I am just going to let it go. Notice Pgal used to come out against PF, she isn't allowed anymore. If the family isn't buying it, then no wonder that LE aren't buying things either.

Always suspecious of PF"S statemens. Now you know why people don't bother telling LE anything.

Another thing it is supposed that PF might have thought that Ray was still out there. Asking him to come home. How could he do that when she took the car. God forbid if he did decide to go to a baseball game again. The perputrator might have come back to the car also. Oh well. Enough said. [/*]

Cind..
Believe me you are not the only one who has questions about PF.
. I think 75 percent of the people here aren't buyin into "her" story. (or those crocdile tears)

I know you care about Mr. Gricar. I know you want the truth. I think we all get so frustrated that we tend to take it out on each other (and TG)...and we are ALL wrong for that.

I think LE messed this case up on day1. Did they do it on purpose? Who knows? I also think CB was USED in this case so that DZ didn't have to search for the REAL clues and talk to the REAL people who may have pointed this case in the right direction.

Don't give up cind. Just remember TG is not "our" enemy...he is also a victim (sadly) in all of this..

:rose:

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Did i say i had a theory? I am pretty stinkin sure I didn't. Hell, i don't know what has happened on this forum but the attitudes here are TERRIBLE.

I asked a simple question . JJ...it did not deserve your smart *** response.

And SINCE you are an insider ..i'm sure that you know who picked the clothing out ;) [/*]

Day, I can assure you that is not a "smart *** response."

I'm not an insider, but the information I have indicates that the scenting was legitimate, it wasn't from the seat of the Mini, it wasn't from an item PEF chose.

Dogs are not perfect, as I've pointed out, but when I point you in a direction, I am attempting to direct, not misdirect. Now, I have indicated a few things, either through research or some folks do talk to me. That is a, perhaps unfortunate, result of the JKA hype (and was never my intent).

In this case, it is just a detail that we argue over, and not really relevant to what happened. This is one where I have slightly more confidence that DZ didn't screw up.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

More doesn't count. Last touch does.

Who told you that? If that were true, every time a subject touched another person or object, dogs would follow that other person or object.

If it might have occurred, then forget that test, but before you do, make sure you give all of us a glimpse at it so we can interpret it for ourself. [/*]

I think you will, but I really wouldn't go after the seat scenting, contamination nonsense. In this case, you seem to barking up the wrong tree.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Your assumptions are wrong, so you go ahead and try again.:biggrin: [/*]

Now, I've just explaned wny you are wrong; I see you can't on why you think I'm wtrong. No logic, woolly or otherwise.

J. J. in Phila

02-21-2008, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Who is she to decide what would or would not be effective?
An investigation into the disappearance of the top LE official in a PA county and we have her calling the shots?
Talk about 'bungled'...... [/*]

Logic, she didn't call the shots. If she had, and she killed him, there is no way that she'd want the car quickly examined. Let it sit in a cold moist night and hope that any evidence degrades.

This just descends in trying to come up with anything to try and implicate PEF.

sherrijean981

02-22-2008, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Pgal,

If I was showing SJ around don't you think that she would want to know about the apartment if I stated it. [/*]

No, I wouldn't have, because I knew he couldn't be hidden in Bellefonte in an apartment and NO ONE has ever seen him.

I lived in Bellefonte, everyone knows everybody around town, and you seriously think the DA could hide there?

If you had looked at me I had turned my head and was smiling. I knew I was in for an interesting day and you didn't disappoint me.

Isn't it time to give TG a break? :shrug:

sherrijean981

02-22-2008, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

that is such a crock JJ

I'd venture a guess that more people post because of your actions than JKA's. [/*]

I don't think anyone's actions on the forum has anything to do with our posting.

I started reading Ray Gricar's Q&A forum long before I posted on here. In fact, I went back to see when I did start reading it. The first post listed by anyone, and I don't know if that is correct or they removed some previously, was listed on 9-9-2005. My first post was on 9-20-2005 and I registered here on 10-16-2006.

I was reading the forum long before I posted and found the conversations interesting and at times I laughed at the things said and how they were said.

At no time was I laughing at the reason we were on the forum, either reading or posting.

My reason for coming on this forum and the CDT forum was because of Ray Gricar. I followed his case from day one and couldn't stay away from any site that talked of him. I have been intent with learning about him and doing searches on the internet and in the area he was in, just hoping I will step on that little bit of info that could help solve the case.

I am praying he did walk away, because then he can walk back in to Bellefonte any day. Doesn't need a Mini Cooper to do that.

JKA and JJ have had nothing to do with my postings.

I actually have found JJ's posts more interesting because he makes me look at things in different ways. He challenges me to look further than my own thoughts or theories.

Ray Gricar if you are out there and reading our posts, I pray you are safe and content in where you are at this point in your life.
:rose:

tonyGricar

02-22-2008, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
Do others in the family look at everything as objectively as you? [/*]Given our backgrounds, yes. I assume you realize what my "family" consists of so it shouldnt be hard to understand why (and it has nothing to do with anyone without our last name.). A D.A. in the family has much to do with it, among other factors.

tonyGricar

02-22-2008, 03:34 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
2. the PSP wanted the car to remain in the lot, and were overruled by PF, who didn't want it to remain there, with Z's
back-up. [/*]Due to incorrect interpretations by other posters, you are still missing on this one.

tonyGricar

02-22-2008, 03:50 AM

tonyGricar

02-22-2008, 03:56 AM

I'm not one for accepting compliments of any sort, but they are appreciated. That's the most you'll get out of me. After all, I am a Gricar...

Politigal

02-22-2008, 08:21 AM

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

HUH??? I have not talked to anyone on the phone regarding this case other than the BPD since the very beginning nearly three years ago therefore I have no idea what you are talking about. [/*]

Try reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers

Perhaps you will achieve comprehension.

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I don't think so. Not talking about the procedure followed for processing. Any indication when this case is going to be turned over to a group minus 'conflict of interest'? [/*]

Still wrong, and now in stereo.

There was no pressure, that I've heard about, from multiple sources to have the car rushed through processing or any request I've heard about for PEF to return the car from processing. Processing, to be clear, ia the collection of evidence from the car.

The question was on keeping returning the car to the parking lot and then watching it. By the point it became time to make that decision, numerous volunteers and news crews (as per TG) were standing around in the area, so it really didn't make a difference. I'm now trying to get a mental picture of three different groups of police, a few dozen volunteers, and several news crews, with their trucks all hiding in the bushes and behind trees around the parking lot. :rolleyes:

Now, if anyone murdered RFG and had any influence on LE, they may try to delay the processing (so that the physical evidence in the car might further degrade), or rush the process through (hoping LE would miss something). Neither of those things happened from what I have been told, from several different sources.

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

you almost sound like a proud uncle [/*]

Two things about S1:

1. He's right.

2. He, unfortunately, is not TG's uncle.hammer

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 11:52 AM

SJ, I was not referring to posters.

I'm referring to things like this:

In about the third week of May, in the course of defending his position that Ray himself had turned his cell phone off, he citing some examples of situations where the cell would have to have remained on such as Ray's awaiting return of a verdict in a case he had tried, certainly a common office situation. He observed that the DA's office has multiple secretaries, and in another posting stated that the DA's office has 'never been a one-man operation', and that it was not such back in 1980 when Ray had first been appointed an ADA. A couple of months back, JJ made reference to a member of a local law firm who when he left to become a judge had removed his name from the masthead of the law firm. That individual was no longer on the bench when I came to Centre County in 1987, so the information goes back to a point more than 20 years ago. On June 16, 2007, JJ asserted that Ray's salary at the time of his [early 90s] divorce from his first wife was $40,000. During the first week of June, he offered the information on the occupation of the father Ray's paramour's ex-husband. All amazing knowledge for a disabled guy living in Philly. - J Karen Arnold, former Assistant District Attorney, Centre County, PA

Personally I'm a fan of a poster named "J.J." in Philadelphia, a man who clearly has an analytical mind and the ability to make people think. Pete Bosak, Crime Reporter, Centre Daily Time

Now, that was never my goal in posting, never really wanted it, but that attention has been thrust on me. I have become part of the story, even if I didn't really want to be. It doesn't have anything to do with the posters.

It turns out that I a "disabled guy living in Philly," and therefore have "amazing knowledge," by JKA's standard. As a matter of fact, I didn't have what I considered to be any "amazing knowledge" when she posted it, or "inside information." I was just a moderately good researcher, and could occasionally make a good connection (as could many other posters). It was JKA's over-hype of me that opened a few doors for me, off this board. Quite ironic, but I'm use to irony.

I really should put some of those quotes, abridged, in my signature. ;)

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Your games or the comprehension thereof are of not interest to me. Never have been; never will be. [/*]

Then I'm afraid you will never comprehend what what TG said. Pity.

Chump#7

02-22-2008, 12:04 PM

God. Get over yourself already.

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Chump#7
God. Get over yourself already. [/*]

Ah, but those are not my opinions of myself. That is the situation. I contributed to neither one of those, suggested neither. I don't happen to believe that hype (you'll note what I've called it), didn't suggest it, didn't really want it, but it is there.

If it somehow advances the case, I'm 100% in favor of it, however. I just hope it does.

I don't have the answers, but I've been hoping to ask the right questions. :)

Cinderella

02-22-2008, 12:35 PM

Hey Chump what have you been up to lately? Any investigating?

Chump#7

02-22-2008, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Hey Chump what have you been up to lately? Any investigating? [/*]

Working, working, and working.

Investigating? Interestingly enough, an old acquaintance from State College recently hunted me (and my wife) down after years of lost contact. She's one that had a particular gift of getting the dip on... well, just about everything, the little gossip. Being that her step father once owned a very large and prominent building in very close proximity the courthouse, I think I'll shoot her an email to see what she's heard. I really don't expect much more than the usual urban legends that have been mentioned, but it can't hurt either.

I'll report back regardless.

Cinderella

02-22-2008, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by Chump#7

Working, working, and working.

Investigating? Interestingly enough, an old acquaintance from State College recently hunted me (and my wife) down after years of lost contact. She's one that had a particular gift of getting the dip on... well, just about everything, the little gossip. Being that her step father once owned a very large and prominent building in very close proximity the courthouse, I think I'll shoot her an email to see what she's heard. I really don't expect much more than the usual urban legends that have been mentioned, but it can't hurt either.

I'll report back regardless. [/*]

Thanks Chump, I would love to hear what she has to say. I really bet you miss Happy Valley. LOL

Chump#7

02-22-2008, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

Thanks Chump, I would love to hear what she has to say. I really bet you miss Happy Valley. LOL [/*]

That was quick. I'm kind of shocked, actually. She had no idea - never even heard that RG was missing. (She's been in Philly since 2000.) The response began with, "Holy Crap!" - She knew who RG was, but had no idea any of this ever happened. Talk about your isolated PA news markets... Anyways, she'll get the dip, if anything from a different plane of Bellfutian gossip circles. I'm not holding my breath for anything new.

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Chump#7

That was quick. I'm kind of shocked, actually. She had no idea - never even heard that RG was missing. (She's been in Philly since 2000.) The response began with, "Holy Crap!" - She knew who RG was, but had no idea any of this ever happened. Talk about your isolated PA news markets... Anyways, she'll get the dip, if anything from a different plane of Bellfutian gossip circles. I'm not holding my breath for anything new. [/*]

It was covered here, but not a major story. I think I went to WJAC's website and then to the CDT.

day2day

02-22-2008, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Chump#7

That was quick. I'm kind of shocked, actually. She had no idea - never even heard that RG was missing. (She's been in Philly since 2000.) The response began with, "Holy Crap!" - She knew who RG was, but had no idea any of this ever happened. Talk about your isolated PA news markets... Anyways, she'll get the dip, if anything from a different plane of Bellfutian gossip circles. I'm not holding my breath for anything new. [/*]

News must travel REAL slow in PA. I dont blame ya -if she hadnt heard anythin in almost 3 years..im not sure her "dip" would be ..real great...:(..or she might already have known he was misisn?

jm2cents

Serendipitous1

02-22-2008, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
you almost sound like a proud uncle Very funny. But almost does not count...except in horseshoes and hand grenades! I AM a proud uncle, to be sure. But my ethnic heritage is decidedly German...no by-the-low-hill-dwellers in the lot (go figure).

Serendipitous1

02-22-2008, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I'm not one for accepting compliments of any sort, but they are appreciated. That's the most you'll get out of me. After all, I am a Gricar... I hear ya. OK then, I will talk about "me"...which seems to be the 'order of the day'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkftr4fbmMc

day2day

02-22-2008, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I hear ya. OK then, I will talk about "me"...which seems to be the 'order of the day'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkftr4fbmMc [/*]

:o i had never heard that before..but it is beautiful. Thanks~

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by sherryhefner
This case is so baffling....

Just curious to know if there are ever any reported sightings of RG these days? [/*]

There have been some that were proven false or unconfirmed. There was a "sighting" in LA; I think that was the latest publicized (well that I've read about at any rate).

Cinderella

02-22-2008, 09:18 PM

Well I have been told otherwise. Who says that your sources were right? Everyone wondered why the Mini was returned so soon. I would like to know the average time that a car of a missing person is kept.

Also LE does hide in bushes and have others watch things. So why did the Mini have to be returned so soon? Did LE call PF and say we are done with it. No they wanted to keep it there for a while.

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

As suspected, of course, you know better than the PSP.
I didn't realize that in an investigation into the disappearance of a government official, DA, that multiple choices would ever be an option. Certainly hope the State has learned some valuable lessons from this case.
JMO [/*]

No, but when it came time to make that decision, the situation had changed. It really didn't make any difference what anyone wanted at first. I'm sorry you don't understand that when news crews a lot of police and spectators show up at a parking lot in the middle of a town, it's a bit hard to be low profile. :rolleyes:

Serendipitous1

02-22-2008, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by day2day
:o i had never heard that before..but it is beautiful. Thanks~ Generation to generation, we all associate with different music...and pictures. I especially liked the photo of Ray with his young daughter...Ray with an apropos 70/80's haircut. It was a different time then, to be sure.

J. J. in Phila

02-22-2008, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Well I have been told otherwise. Who says that your sources were right? Everyone wondered why the Mini was returned so soon. I would like to know the average time that a car of a missing person is kept.

I've had it from two sources, one of them might be yours. I had the story before you mentioned it, and I have a very different story than you have.

Also LE does hide in bushes and have others watch things. So why did the Mini have to be returned so soon? Did LE call PF and say we are done with it. No they wanted to keep it there for a while.

Your statement is incorrect.

Please picture the news crews and their vans hiding behind a tree, not to mention all the volunteers.

Cinderella

02-22-2008, 11:45 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

SNIP
-------------------

Your statement is incorrect.

SNIIP
---------------------

What statement is incorrect?

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

SNIP
-------------------

Your statement is incorrect.

SNIIP
---------------------

What statement is incorrect? [/*]

This one:

"No they wanted to keep it there for a while."

There is a difference between watching a car and getting evidence from a car.

Cinderella

02-23-2008, 12:20 AM

No you are the wrong one. They wanted to keep the car there to see if someone might come back to the car. Which is still evidence. DUH! hammer

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
No you are the wrong one. They wanted to keep the car there to see if someone might come back to the car. Which is still evidence. DUH! hammer [/*]

No, they wanted to stake out the car, which they couldn't do after the news crews, volunteers, et c., showed up, as per TG's comment.

They had the time to collect the evidence in and around the car.

Cinderella

02-23-2008, 12:38 AM

Who let the news know that they found the Mini? When were the dogs brought in, When did they take the Mini? When did the news people get there?

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Who let the news know that they found the Mini? When were the dogs brought in, When did they take the Mini? When did the news people get there? [/*]

The dogs were brought in on Sunday morning. The Mini was towed Saturday evening and I think that the news crews were there by that point.

I would assume that the news crews had scanners. It's also possible that someone could have called the press when they first arrived. Several police cars in the area might have attracted attention.

Cinderella

02-23-2008, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

The dogs were brought in on Sunday morning. The Mini was towed Saturday evening and I think that the news crews were there by that point.

I would assume that the news crews had scanners. It's also possible that someone could have called the press when they first arrived. Several police cars in the area might have attracted attention. [/*]

Why would they ever tow the Mini before the dogs were brought in. Wonder whose idea that was? I really feel that LE should be held responsible for their actions. That is total nonsense. Could that be termed a "Mickey"?

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

Why would they ever tow the Mini before the dogs were brought in. Wonder whose idea that was? I really feel that LE should be held responsible for their actions. That is total nonsense. Could that be termed a "Mickey"? [/*]

Well, I can understand why LE would to want the car to be examined ASAP. Fingerprints are not indestructible, obviously and moisture can ruin them; it makes sense to being the analysis ASAP.

Cinderella

02-23-2008, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Well, I can understand why LE would to want the car to be examined ASAP. Fingerprints are not indestructible, obviously and moisture can ruin them; it makes sense to being the analysis ASAP. [/*]

Well supposedly when they looked in it nothing was that noticeable that it couldn't have waited until the dog got there.

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

Well supposedly when they looked in it nothing was that noticeable that it couldn't have waited until the dog got there. [/*]

The prints would not be noticeable to the naked eye, as a rule. The can however degrade do to moisture in the air; the longer they are in the car, the greater the chances they will degrade.

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 02:06 PM

LW, I'm afraid you missed the point again. That a particular print might survive, in geeral the passage of time can create problems:

The first is from a book on forensic evidence:

http://books.google.com/books?id=R17PyOayF6kC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=latent+prints+degrade&source=web&ots=ZYNme8WdO1&sig=XTS4mMhfLeVN3m8epeMa45hNsTE

The second is from an article:

Fingerprints can degrade with time, so that some visualisation methods are less effective than with fresh prints. Since many crimes go undetected for some time, or evidence is recovered at a later date, the degradation of prints can become an important factor. The characteristic ridge pattern may not reproduced with sufficient accuracy for a positive identification.

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:q1-9ec30cbkJ:www.separationsnow.com/coi/cda/detail.cda%3Fid%3D16161%26type%3DFeature%26chId%3D 4%26page%3D1+Latent+prints+degrade&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=us

It makes sense to send the car for processing and not wait hours for the dogs to show up (possibly more than 12 hours). According to TG, in his father's case, LE never processed the car.

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

The car didn't have to be moved from the lot to dust the exterior for prints.
The interior did not need to be processed prior to the tracking dogs arriving.

You could immediately have problems with lighting and dust, if they have to print it there. It's not dark, but the sun is going down and it will take some time to get the forensics people down there.

After being found at 6:30-ish on Saturday evening, the next likely move was to call BPD alerting them to that fact at which time Dixon would have been notified.
The second most likely notification would have been to notify Z.
The third most likely notification would have been to PF. Who made that call, Dixon or Z?

Reading between the lines, I think forensics was already there. DZ wasn't there to smell the smoke or unlock the door. LE has a device that could be used in an emergency to unlock the doors.

As to the press, they have scanners.

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

If forensics was already there, with darkness not occurring until well after 8:00 pm, still no problem with fingerprinting.
Timing has always seemed interesting......weekend, least likely time to find a full crew including a detective immediately available. Call coming in close to midnight on Friday virtually insures time delays.

Sunset occurred 7:49 PM, and they would be losing direct light even at 6:30 PM; you'd get shadows.

The call would "insure" nothing, because neither PEF or the BPD could determine when the car was found.

I understand LE would have a tool to use in emergencies. Who gave them the go ahead to use the tool instead of waiting on keys? Who had the authority to call that shot other than PF, the owner of the vehicle?
Do you know for a fact the tool was used?

Ask LE. I would assume that since the car was locked and DZ was not present, that LE used something other than the key to open the door.

Cinderella

02-23-2008, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Sunset occurred 7:49 PM, and they would be losing direct light even at 6:30 PM; you'd get shadows.

The call would "insure" nothing, because neither PEF or the BPD could determine when the car was found.

Ask LE. I would assume that since the car was locked and DZ was not present, that LE used something other than the key to open the door. [/*]

Wow, J. J., it is hard to believe that you don't have an answer for that question. :confused:

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Shadows won't harm fingerprints and a PSP forensic team arriving on site shortly after the find likewise would have arrived at decisions about where to dust long before twilight arrived.
[/quotes]

Shadows won't harm fingerprints, but they will make it harder to see. We don't have an exact time the car was spotted, and presumably are not on standby, all packed up and ready to go flying to the scene (if they are anything like the Phila PD.

[quote]
Are you saying PSP didn't offer to fingerprint the exterior thus eliminating the need to tow the vehicle out of the lot prematurely?

From everything posted, I'm saying the PSP wanted the car towed, apparently prior to too late stakeout.

We can, of course, assume LE used something other than a key to open the door if someone informed them the keys would not be forthcoming, but if so, who gave them the go-ahead?

Why do you think they'd need a "go ahead?" This was a potentially emergency situation.

We are told to this very day that this is ONLY a missing person case therefore I find it highly unlikely the PSP went in like Gangbuster, bypassing the owner of the vehicle, taking it upon themselves to break into the car of someone who could be returning any minute. Guess if that had occurred, the PSP would have to explain they were honoring the owner's wishes which would outweigh the possible last driver's wishes.

The PSP had no idea what they'd fing when they opened the car. There could have been heart pills, or some other medication, that would have pointed to a medical emergency. Likewise there could have been evidence of a crime, e.g. some blood on the floor; there could have been a note, for that matter.

You are assuming that LE would know what they found prior to opening the Mini. They obviously didn't. :rolleyes:

Cind, it's possible that several dozen duplicate keys were made and distributed to every police officer in Central PA, but I doubt it. They could have either called a locksmith, or used a device to open it. My guess is the latter.

J. J. in Phila

02-23-2008, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Which came first, the tow or the opening of the car doors? [/*]

Door, I think. DZ wasn't there for the door opening.

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Meaning he was there for the towing?

That I don't know

Who signed the towing company's papers approving it being towed out of the lot? [/*]

Knowing what they can do with illegally parked cars in Phila, I doubt if anyone, other that the police would need to sign the papers. It was a question of probable cause, at that was clearly there.

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Ashes and smoke odor, a vehicle belonging to someone other than the missing person, a cellphone left behind and no sign of foul play = ??? as far as probable cause? [/*]

Probable cause is the report that he was missing and the car that was, until c. 6:30 PM, 4/16/05, also missing. The things you've just suggested were known known by LE until the door was opened.

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Other than the smoke and ashes, it would seem all of the other issues would have been known without opening the door......

Oh, pleeeeeeze. :rolleyes:

A bottle of pills on the floor, a note in the glove compartment, a few tiny drops of blood on the gearshift, maybe a shell casing. I don't even know if the could see the cell phone.

LW, even for you, this is pretty bad.

If they thought it was foul play, wouldn't they want to keep everything intact until they got it to a more sterile location?

You have to remember that LE had less of an idea of what was going on on 4/16/05 at c. 6:30 PM than we do today. This could have been a medical emergency, for all LE know at that point.

Just like the car being returned, was there also a rush to ensure that the last phone call was duly noted? Was the reason for opening the door to get at the cell phone? Seems likely to me......

It seems hugely unlikely to me, because, according to JKA, they had RFG's cell records by that afternoon, even before the press conference.

Cinderella

02-24-2008, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Other than the smoke and ashes, it would seem all of the other issues would have been known without opening the door......
that the car was owned by someone other than the disappeared,
that by viewing from exterior, there was no indications that any gory scene had taken place inside the Mini,
that, most likely, the cell phone was inside and visible.
Nothing there to indicate 'emergency', and unlikely they opened the door to dust for prints or swab for DNA.

If their full intent from the 'git-go' was to tow the vehicle to test/dust/vacuum the interior, why bother to open the door in the parking lot? If they thought it was an emergency situation, they obviously knew the emergency wasn't in the car.
If they thought it was foul play, wouldn't they want to keep everything intact until they got it to a more sterile location?

It just seems to me someone had to have been 'leading' and I somehow doubt it was the PSP. Sounds like the PSP thought he might return to the car. Highly unlikely they thought any perp was going to come back in the event of foul play considering it was a county DA.

Just like the car being returned, was there also a rush to ensure that the last phone call was duly noted? Was the reason for opening the door to get at the cell phone? Seems likely to me......
JMO [/*]

Very good post, Logic.

Why would they need to do anything until the dogs were brought in. They could see what was in the car and that Ray wasn't in the car. the trunk area is visible so they knew that he wasn't in the trunk. Were they care not to contaminate the scene around the car. The car hadn't been wrecked or looking any different, why open it and move it. They should have brought the dogs in and looked around the car for any evidence.

Did they check tire tracks so they could maybe make out the vehicle that had been parked next to it. Did they look around the scene and take notice and pictures of the vehicles and surrounding area. Did they look for footprints around the car? Did they collect the cigarette butts and anything else around the car?

Who was running the show? Given that they found the car not too far away from Bellefonte, and it was not hidden in a field or damaged, I would have to wonder if Ray was going to come back to the car.

They didn't need to use an instrument to open the car, since they knew the car belonged to someone else. All they had to do was ask her for the keys. Did she give them the keys to get into it. Who opened the door?

Was PF there when they opened the car?

How in the world did they ever think that after opening the door and towing the car to a different location that they dogs could tell what went on? I would like to know what they scented the dog with and if PF was there when the dog was there?

Did they go around the near location and talk to people in the SOS or other places right away to see if they saw or heard anything?

Also the media could have been kept away from the area of the car. I would like to know, who gave the orders. Also who is the person that retrieved the cell phone from the car. Did this person have gloves on?

Cinderella

02-24-2008, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by sherryhefner
I admittedly know little about this case...even though I have been reading up on it.
Its tough to imagine that Ray's significant other would not know the cause of what was bothering him in the days leading up to his disappearance. Even though she passed the lie detector, what is the feeling of the majority here as to her knowledge? [/*]

Hi Sherry, nice to see you post again. I really truly deep in my heart feel that PF knows more than what she is telling.

When living and working with a person some things don't need to be said. If your man goes someplace, I am sure that even if he didn't tell you where he was going, you might have a good idea.

When I spoke to PF that one day, she wasn't afraid. I believe that if she would have thought that someone killed Ray, she might have ran or been very cautious. If my soul mate went missing and I truly didn't know what happened to him, I would be terrified for my self. So I am thinking that she doesn't believe that it was foul play by someone else or someone who would harm her. She might know what happened to him.

In my book when you have a soul mate, there are no questions. You communicate with each other. I really don't feel that the relationship was as close as she thought.

She also reminded me of a person who always has to be in control of everything. To me, I am wondering why didn't she leave the car at the SOS at least until Monday. Why take it home so soon.

She has different versions of the 15th.

She took a lower paying job to be near him. Why? If he was going to retire and take her, I wouldn't change jobs.

There are just to many questions. When she talks and tells him to come home, I feel like she is just like talking to someone else or not believing that he is coming home. Her tone when talking about Ray alot of time is void of emotion.

She can act like she is starting to cry. I didn't see any tears though.

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

She has different versions of the 15th.

Every time you make this statement, I ask for examples; there are none.

She took a lower paying job to be near him. Why? If he was going to retire and take her, I wouldn't change jobs.

Except, she had an office near his before and she wouldn't be with him in court, like her old job.

There are just to many questions. When she talks and tells him to come home, I feel like she is just like talking to someone else or not believing that he is coming home. Her tone when talking about Ray alot of time is void of emotion.

She did initially ask him to phone home. I understand that it was an emotional time, but it might tell us something her mindset at the time. The question is, why would she think he could call home?

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

If they were looking for DNA evidence, such as a few tiny drops of blood, all the more reason to move the vehicle prior to opening it up, to a more sterile location than a parking lot before breaking into the car.

Who said that LE did any "breaking into the car?" How are they going to know what they will find when the open it. I seriously doubt that they pawed through the car, but I can easily understand them opening it.

Same with the cellphone, if they could see it in the vehicle and weren't fingerprinting onsite.

Or just left it and towed it with the car for processing, where they checked the fingerprints.

Same with a spent shell........wouldn't they want to fingerprint before touching anything inside the car and if it is as you say, that no fingerprinting would have done on site, why was the car opened prior to being towed?

Again, just seeing where was something like that in there may have given LE a different idea.

The idea 'there might be a note in the car' came from where? And why does it sound so familiar?
JMO [/*]

Please explain how LE or you for that matter could have known if there was a note, or possibly a receipt for a motel, where they could check. :rolleyes:

You tend to think this was a murder; please cite your evidence?

Politigal

02-24-2008, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

~snipped~

She did initially ask him to phone home. I understand that it was an emotional time, but it might tell us something her mindset at the time. The question is, why would she think he could call home? [/*]

I don't believe she did think he could call home.

I believe she wanted *others* to think that he could call home.

Big difference.

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

I don't believe she did think he could call home.

I believe she wanted *others* to think that he could call home.

I don't. :)

It seems to have been an emotional outburst, under an obviously stressful situation, that wasn't repeated in future conferences or interviews.

For me, when I heard about RFG missing, one of the least likely things that I thought of was that RFG could call home, but that's just me, one of the audience.

Politigal

02-24-2008, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I don't. :)

It seems to have been an emotional outburst, under an obviously stressful situation, that wasn't repeated in future conferences or interviews.

For me, when I heard about RFG missing, one of the least likely things that I thought of was that RFG could call home, but that's just me, one of the audience. [/*]

I think I'd class you more as an admirer.

:rolleyes:

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

I think I'd class you more as an admirer.

:rolleyes: [/*]

Sorry, hadn't even heard of her until that day. I was a bit of an admirer of her Uncle Gino, whom I had met, twice.

What I was thinking for about a month after 4/17/05 was suicide, murder, or an accident. I also had expected a body to be found within that time. Even by the time I started here, was still giving it a 33.3% chance of each murder, suicide, or walkaway. Both the chances of murder, at 42% and walkaway, at 43%, are higher today and subject to change.

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

If they wanted to look for 'something' as you state, better to do it 'in house' than in the lot IF the decision to tow had already been made. I am far from convinced it was.

Where's your evidence it wasn't murder?
JMO [/*]

You can't prove a negative.

How, IF it was a murder:

1. Where is the body?

2. Where is the evidence of method?

3. Why does a killer get RFG to go to Lewisburg?

4. Why did the killer so ham handedly dispose of the laptop? Specifically, why didn't he dispose of it with the body? (There are some answers, but they are unlikely.)

Now ultimately, the only explanation I can come up with is found in the Murder Scenario thread.

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

If they wanted to look for 'something' as you state, better to do it 'in house' than in the lot IF the decision to tow had already been made. I am far from convinced it was.

As noted, leaving the Mini parked could cause degradation of the prints.

If I understood TG's post correctly, the sequence was evidence collection first and then the stakeout.

Cinderella

02-24-2008, 09:06 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Every time you make this statement, I ask for examples; there are none.

SNIP
--------------------------

J. J. It might take me a while, but when I can spare some time, I am going to put all the statements that she made about this case that doin't add up. The information is out there, but it needs pieced together. One of the things is that the CDT doesn't have online is things that were stated in the beginning.

EX. Was it a half day or was it a whole day. Personally I think that Ray was only going to take a half day off. I believe that the man from Spring Mills saw him at 7:30 a.m. I believe that Ray was on his way back when he called PF. The day that I spoke to her, she was at home for lunch about 11:15 or 11:30 which would make sense to call PF and tell her to make sure that she went home for lunch and let the dog out. Because he was running late or wouldn't be back in time. That scenerio fits more than anything else.

Give me some time and I will show you. But you already know it anyhow.

Serendipitous1

02-24-2008, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
That's the problem then with the 20-80. Quote: "if anonymously" Quote

You need to let him know that you are one of the gang on RG's Forum. Seems to get quick results as not many others are asking any. JJ just ask yesterday and PB has answered a couple questions today. JMO I had thought that many of my questions were just too provocative. As of late though, I am not too sure. My opinion is that a good question to the CDT forum is deserving of an answer, regardless of who asks it. Ostensively, it is a forum devoted to factual answers to questions...not a repository for speculation.

My opinion is that a poster, speculating on a message board such as this, is (or should be) attempting to use facts to suggest what might have happened to Ray Gricar. It is not an investigative tool, although one could hope the questions and speculation might precipitate an answer to this mystery. But without exception, I believe there are no posters speculating in this forum, who are in any way legitimately connected to this case.

My question here, in this den of speculation then, is...Why has the CDT (through PB) apparently promoted the cross-contamination, as recently mainfested in the what-to-do-with-the-Mini controversy? Because it seems to me that, in doing so, the CDT (or perhaps just PB, including his blog entry) is following a path similar to that of JKA...whose credibility was so negatively impacted by her own message-board fantasies.

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Every time you make this statement, I ask for examples; there are none.

SNIP
--------------------------

J. J. It might take me a while, but when I can spare some time, I am going to put all the statements that she made about this case that doin't add up. The information is out there, but it needs pieced together. One of the things is that the CDT doesn't have online is things that were stated in the beginning.

EX. Was it a half day or was it a whole day. Personally I think that Ray was only going to take a half day off. I believe that the man from Spring Mills saw him at 7:30 a.m. I believe that Ray was on his way back when he called PF. The day that I spoke to her, she was at home for lunch about 11:15 or 11:30 which would make sense to call PF and tell her to make sure that she went home for lunch and let the dog out. Because he was running late or wouldn't be back in time. That scenerio fits more than anything else.

Give me some time and I will show you. But you already know it anyhow. [/*]

That wasn't PEF's statement but Chief Dixon's statement. The first reference I've found to the dog was from Lara.

gstickley

02-24-2008, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My question here, in this den of speculation then, is...Why has the CDT (through PB) apparently promoted the cross-contamination, as recently mainfested in the what-to-do-with-the-Mini controversy? Because it seems to me that, in doing so, the CDT (or perhaps just PB, including his blog entry) is following a path similar to that of JKA...whose credibility was so negatively impacted by her own message-board fantasies. [/*]

When was KA on a message board?

Politigal

02-24-2008, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

When was KA on a message board? [/*]

Point for G Stickley

:biggrin:

Cinderella

02-24-2008, 10:49 PM

J. J. Who gave the timeline? Who told Dixon what happened that morning. There is only one person to tell the story as Ray isn't around.

S1, I totally disagree with you about Pete. And why shouldn't questions be asked of why and who authorized them to do what they did?

S1, are you also saying that JKA lied in what she said. If so for what purposes. Anybody that questions anything that PF did is really put down for doing that. Why?

Serendipitous1

02-24-2008, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
When was KA on a message board? MOO - Not only did you miss the point of my post, but also the reference to JKA...which was to her website fantasies regarding this message board.

Strike point. . .:no:

Politigal

02-24-2008, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - Not only did you miss the point of my post, but also the reference to JKA...which was to her website fantasies regarding this message board.

Strike point. . .:no: [/*]

Could you elaborate on her message board fantasies?

From what I read -- it seemed truthful

You are somehow connected to the case.

JJ defends PF ad nauseum and posts like he has insider info.

Tokuen was probably Barbara Gray.

Tony started posting when BillyWahoo left.

Cinderella & Sherrijean just happened to see Patty walking her dog one day.

Where's the fantasy?

gstickley

02-24-2008, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I had thought that many of my questions were just too provocative. As of late though, I am not too sure. My opinion is that a good question to the CDT forum is deserving of an answer, regardless of who asks it. Ostensively, it is a forum devoted to factual answers to questions...not a repository for speculation.

My opinion is that a poster, speculating on a message board such as this, is (or should be) attempting to use facts to suggest what might have happened to Ray Gricar. It is not an investigative tool, although one could hope the questions and speculation might precipitate an answer to this mystery. But without exception, I believe there are no posters speculating in this forum, who are in any way legitimately connected to this case.

My question here, in this den of speculation then, is...Why has the CDT (through PB) apparently promoted the cross-contamination, as recently mainfested in the what-to-do-with-the-Mini controversy? Because it seems to me that, in doing so, the CDT (or perhaps just PB, including his blog entry) is following a path similar to that of JKA...whose credibility was so negatively impacted by her own message-board fantasies. [/*]

Had no problem with your above post.

However, I'm interested in KA's message board fantasies. Was she on a message board? What fantasies are you referring to? In reading her Magnificent Manuscript, I didn't detect any fantasies at all. What I did detect was someone who knew & worked with Ray Gricar & who gave more insight into the events surrounding the days proceeding his disappearance than anyone else has ever given; someone who knew the parties involved, someone who was there before & after his disappearance; someone who respected Ray Gricar and, having worked with him for so many years, would have more insight into the man & his habits than any other poster thus far (except TG, although she probably spent more time around him than TG did).

Cinderella

02-24-2008, 11:16 PM

This has to do with how the Mini was processed. Don't you care about how it was processed S1? This subject must really be bothering someone. Maybe we are on to something. I want to know the truth. Now Pete Bosak is getting blamed just like JKA.
Put the blame on others and take the heat off of certain people.

I would love to see PF do a website for Ray. What has she done? Did she do anything in Lewisburg other than watch or wait for her Mini. Was she going door to door passing out posters or asking people if they saw Ray. Lara and Barbara were doing that. I really want to know, I didn't hear that PF did any of those things.

J. J. in Phila

02-24-2008, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

My opinion is that a poster, speculating on a message board such as this, is (or should be) attempting to use facts to suggest what might have happened to Ray Gricar. It is not an investigative tool, although one could hope the questions and speculation might precipitate an answer to this mystery. But without exception, I believe there are no posters speculating in this forum, who are in any way legitimately connected to this case.

I think that this forum has one very good use, it is a place to ask questions (and dispel some myths from posters, me included). I've said that I've never had any answers, but I do ask questions. Any answers that I have had, TG, the BPD, and PB had for months prior to me knowing.

Because it seems to me that, in doing so, the CDT (or perhaps just PB, including his blog entry) is following a path similar to that of JKA...whose credibility was so negatively impacted by her own message-board fantasies.

I would not say so. The call for "evidence" echoes up and down Happy Valley, not merely repeated in my posts. :)

I'll also ask you to remember that until a few weeks ago, I gave murder and walkaway equal likelihood; now I'm up to a whooping 1% difference between the two. That might change, but don't expect me to proclaiming that "RFG was murdered/walked away/committed suicide," without a fair amount of evidence. If I had my way, neither would the CDT, but I'm neither the publisher nor the editor of that newspaper.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by sherryhefner
I think RG and PF had a relationship that I don't exactly understand. On another site, PF is referred to as his "paramour." How long has it been since I've heard that word?! Was she not simply a "live-in girlfriend?"

I think that tone is one problem.

[qwuote]
I'm interested in the varying viewpoints....especially in JJ's view, as he seems to think she had nothing to do with Ray's disappearance.
[/quote]

Just to be clear, I never said anything about "holding back." I have said that, at this point in time, I doubt that either she, or JKA, were involved in murder.

Also, was the house hers? And the car? Unusual, no? [/*]

The house was her's before the relationship she inherited it. RFG moved in, and I can very easily understand that he paid on her mortgage; he was living there and should have, IMO, not lived off his girlfriend.

What is unusual, unusual is that RFG paid for the car, outright, and drove it almost exclusively, but had the Mini in her name. The claim is to protect the asset, if sued.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Now Pete Bosak is getting blamed just like JKA.
Put the blame on others and take the heat off of certain people.

In terms of the Press coverage, I blame JKA for two things:

1. Not being interviewed by the press prior to the google pages.

2. This line:

"All amazing knowledge for a disabled guy living in Philly."

If it turns out that I really am "a disabled guy living in Philly," I turn into someone with "amazing knowledge." People can check (and have), and reached the conclusion that I have "amazing knowledge." I don't agree with that conclusion, BTW, but I had nothing to do with putting it out there. I ask questions. :)

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

Could you elaborate on her message board fantasies?

JJ defends PF ad nauseum and posts like he has insider info.

Not quite accurate. I've said that PEF (or anyone else) could not have killed PEF before noon on 4/15/05. That is a bit different than a defense; it is a merely a statement of the conclusions from the evidence.

She was quite wrong here:

""All amazing knowledge for a disabled guy living in Philly."

There is nothing "amazing" about it. ;)

Tokuen was probably Barbara Gray.

I have a lot more faith that JKA was really PE and Lustor than this statement.

Tony started posting when BillyWahoo left.

And? I don't really care that much about BillyWahoo, unless he was really RFG (which a seriously doubt).

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by sherryhefner
JJ, what "tone" are you referencing? I didn't mean to have a "tone" to my question... [/*]

JKA's tone, not yours. :) Sorry.

The "paramour" phrase for one.

Cinderella

02-25-2008, 12:20 AM

Here is the post about Ray being seen at the Weis parking lot.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=31

Q5/16/2005 at 1.00 pm i saw gricar mini cooper pulling into the weis store parking lot on bishop st bellefonte. do you think m&t bank would have it vido tape
dan 5/16/06

AThe bank very well have caught this on tape. Have you reported this to police? If not, call them Bellefonte Police Department at 353-2320.
Pete Bosak 5/17/06

I doubt by the time that this was recieved that the bank might have had anything on tape concerning that date.

sherrijean981

02-25-2008, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by sherryhefner
Is there a place where a newcomer can go to learn all these abbreviations used here? I don't know JKA or some of the others mentioned here... [/*]

JKA - Karen Arnold, former Assistant District Attorney, who worked for RG, and the author of the website with all the info on Ray Gricar (RG) and Patty Fornicola (PF) or by his "paramour".

Lustor, BillyWahoo (BW), Saunterer (S), Parlor Elephant (PE), - Former posters

Serendipitous1 (S1), Politigal (pgal), Sherrijean981 (SJ), Cloudbuster (CB, JJ in Phila (JJ), Cinderella (Cind, Cindi), gstickely (GS), Logicworks (LW), TonyGricar (TG), Day2day (day). - Present Posters and might have forgotten some.

Chump7, LAW, Obrett, Tokeun, Tiredoftheguff (TOTG), - Once In A While Posters and could be many more not mentioned.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by sherryhefner
Is there a place where a newcomer can go to learn all these abbreviations used here? I don't know JKA or some of the others mentioned here... [/*]

Dramatis Personae (Major)

RFG: Raymond Frank Gricar, the missing DA.

PEF: Patricia Elisabeth Fornicola, his girlfriend.

TG: Tony Gricar, family spokesman.

LG: Lara Gricar, RFG's daughter.

JKA: J. Karen Arnold, former Assistant District Attorney (ADA).

DZ: Darrel Zaccagni, former investigating officer.

PB: Pete Bosak, Crime/Police Reporter, Centre Daily Times (CDT).

BPD: Bellefonte Police Department.

PSP: Pennsylvania State Police.

SOS: Street of Shops, the business across the parking lot.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

It appears the information originally released by LE may have been tainted and controlled to protect.
One can only hope a shift in power will produce enough evidence to get this case headed toward resolution.
Anyone who rocks the controlled boat can expect protests. Some appear to be far happier to just keep everyone speculating for ever.
JMO [/*]

I think the "shift in power" might, but possibly not in the direction you seem to want it to go. From what I've seen, your understanding of any local dynamics is very, very far off. We shall see.

gstickley

02-25-2008, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I think the "shift in power" might, but possibly not in the direction you seem to want it to go. From what I've seen, your understanding of any local dynamics is very, very far off. We shall see. [/*]

Golly gee, Logicworks. Don't you know that someone reportedly living in Phila. would have a much better understanding of 'local dynamics' than someone who lives there, works there, talks to locals there, is there every day, has been there for years, has family friends there, & on & on & on????????????????????????????

:biggrin:

Politigal

02-25-2008, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Golly gee, Logicworks. Don't you know that someone reportedly living in Phila. would have a much better understanding of 'local dynamics' than someone who lives there, works there, talks to locals there, is there every day, has been there for years, has family friends there, & on & on & on????????????????????????????

:biggrin: [/*]

And another POINT for G Stickley

IMO

:biggrin:

sherrijean981

02-25-2008, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I think the "shift in power" might, but possibly not in the direction you seem to want it to go. From what I've seen, your understanding of any local dynamics is very, very far off. We shall see. [/*]

Maybe the "shift in power" will help with the local investigation (friends, co-worker's, CCCH employees, etc) that seemed to fall by the wayside, but by this article the investigation was not done JUST by the local LE. I can not believe they would not have done a thorough investigation as to PF and any part she "might" have played in it.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3801.html

Quote:
"Authorities say the investigation into the disappearance -- a probe that has involved Bellefonte police, State College police, state police, the state attorney general's office, the FBI, the Secret Service and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department "
Quote

sherrijean981

02-25-2008, 01:00 PM

With the attitude the lead officer, Darryl Zaccagni, had on the investigation, it really is no wonder we are still, almost 3 years later, with no answers.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3802.html

Quote:
"Zaccagni said conducting interviews of Sloane, Walker and a bevy of county workers likely would yield nothing.

"If my chief wants me to go and do that, I have no problem with doing that," Zaccagni said. "It may be worthwhile, it may not be. But I really don't have an answer to that. It could be a lot of time to lead us nowhere. It could provide us a real lead.

"But it more likely would just lead us toward a theory," he said."
Quote

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
With the attitude the lead officer, Darryl Zaccagni, had on the investigation, it really is no wonder we are still, almost 3 years later, with no answers.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3802.html

Quote:
"Zaccagni said conducting interviews of Sloane, Walker and a bevy of county workers likely would yield nothing.

"If my chief wants me to go and do that, I have no problem with doing that," Zaccagni said. "It may be worthwhile, it may not be. But I really don't have an answer to that. It could be a lot of time to lead us nowhere. It could provide us a real lead.

"But it more likely would just lead us toward a theory," he said."
Quote [/*]

I have a lot more faith in Detective Rickard, from everything I've heard about him. I hope:

1. He asks the same questions that I would.

2. Comes up with answers that I don't have.

sherrijean981

02-25-2008, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I have a lot more faith in Detective Rickard, from everything I've heard about him. I hope:

1. He asks the same questions that I would.

2. Comes up with answers that I don't have. [/*]

JJ
I hope one of his questions will be, "Was the hard drive the one from RG's computer or did someone replace it with a discarded, old one, that a tech might have repaired on his computer at another time?" Check with the CCCH computer tech's or the supply clerk for computer equipment?

I have clipped and cut some from this article.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3798.html

Quote
"Friday, Dec. 09, 2005
Hard drive fails to help Gricar case

Experts were unable to pull any data off a hard drive thought to belong to Ray Gricar's county-issued laptop because of the heavy damage

"They got it apart and cleaned it," Zaccagni said. "But it was so damaged ... the water and grit pretty much destroyed it."

state police attempted to examine it but were unsuccessful. They sent the hard drive to the Secret Service in Philadelphia, who forwarded it to a special lab in California run as a joint effort among the Secret Service, the FBI and the Los Angeles police.

Zaccagni, who spoke to a Secret Service agent Thursday, said experts say they are almost certain they will be unable to retrieve any information off the hard drive, although they plan to try "one or two other things they've never done before.

Special Agent J.J. Klaver, based in Philadelphia, said the FBI does not comment on another agency's cases nor on ongoing investigations. He said he could not confirm that the FBI ever analyzed the hard drive found in Lewisburg.

Because experts were unable to access any information from the hard drive, police can't even confirm that the hard drive came from Gricar's laptop computer.

It is the same make and model as the laptop.

"It looks like a duck and walks like a duck, but it won't quack for us," Zaccagni said. "We're pretty much right where we were before -- nothing." Quote

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

JJ
I hope one of his questions will be, "Was the hard drive the one from RG's computer or did someone replace it with a discarded, old one, that a tech might have repaired on his computer at another time?" Check with the CCCH computer tech's or the supply clerk for computer equipment?

I don't know if that one can be answered.

It really doesn't change the equation in that no one can read what was on RFG's drive.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 02:32 PM

Once again, you are barking up the wrong tree. That doesn't look like the direction LE is traveling. You've still missed it.

Cinderella

02-25-2008, 02:40 PM

How do you know what direction LE are traveling. Do you have some inside information that you would like to share?

sherrijean981

02-25-2008, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

While there may have been involvement by any number of groups such as testing various items, that in no way indicates they were into the thick of things investigation-wise nor that they were included in the 'inner circle' information.

Good example is the recent disclosure that PSP wanted to do something and were told NO. That indicates investigative prowess was offered by other 'powers that be' that were actually further up the food chain and that expertise was pushed aside for what appears to be a personal reason, IMO.

Same with the reports........we don't know WHAT was on any report, other than that which has been spoon-fed to us.
I can tell you that I heard reports that conflicted with what came out in the news. Anyone who wanted to keep the investigation under 'wraps' could also keep other info quiet....'damage control', of sorts.

I think my biggest question is what took so long?
JMO [/*]

What "inner Circle" investigation? DZ more or less said why do it? Could lead to something, might not so why talk to anyone? I posted a link to that comment only it comes out very stupid from him. He might have found out early on that someone did help RG take a walk.

If you are referring to PSP wanting to put the car back in the lot, TG said that it was too crowded in that area to do anyways, with news teams, LE, volunteers, etc.

I don't think I would have wanted my car left in a lot over night as bait for the next guy who wants a car to hi-jack and get drug money with.

Do you really think anyone would come back to that car, if "they" had anything to do with RG's disappearance? As soon as that car was found, moved for hours and then brought back "they" would know it was a set-up. And "they" were probably in the immediate area watching, in an apartment, house, on the street or across the river, patting themselves on the back for pulling something off while that area had been under investigation for 3 months during a drug investigation.

That is the problem with reports. Things get out that shouldn't. LE talks to certain people telling certain things and it is like playing the Telephone Game that TG was talking about. Starts with one thing and ends up totally different.

I am also surprised that you and Cinderella are getting all these reports all the time. I thought in an investigation LE kept their info to themselves until they put it in the news, not given to every county citizen to be telephoned around.
JMO

Cinderella

02-25-2008, 03:30 PM

I refuse to respond to someone that speaks untruth about me for someone else to look better.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
How do you know what direction LE are traveling. Do you have some inside information that you would like to share? [/*]

Not inside, just currently unreleased.

Cinderella

02-25-2008, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Not inside, just currently unreleased. [/*]

One thing about you is that you do have a way with words.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

One thing about you is that you do have a way with words. [/*]

Quite true. :)

Expect more twists in the tale.

Politigal

02-25-2008, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Quite true. :)

Expect more twists in the tale. [/*]

Are you with the National Enquirer or something?

geez

Cinderella

02-25-2008, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Quite true. :)

Expect more twists in the tale. [/*]

The only thing that I and most posters want is the truth to come out. To find the truth of what happened to Ray.

day2day

02-25-2008, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

The only thing that I and most posters want is the truth to come out. To find the truth of what happened to Ray. [/*]

The whole truth. Not the half-truths and BS we have been fed for the last few years ..:(

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

The only thing that I and most posters want is the truth to come out. To find the truth of what happened to Ray. [/*]

I follow the evidence. Just don't be too disappointed if it's not the answer you want.

There are some things out there that don't point to murder.

Cinderella

02-25-2008, 09:37 PM

Like I said earlier, I just want the truth and nothing, no spin, no lies, just the truth.

If Ray happens to be alive that is ok and the best outcome. I want only the truth.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

Are you with the National Enquirer or something?

geez [/*]

No, but doing my impersonation of The Amazing Criswell, I predict that a little (though not much) more sunlight may shine on this case, on the day that the dawn comes from the west. ;)

Right now, perhaps only four to five people will understand that message (and three to four of those don't post). Put it might help prove a point, in the future. ;)

Serendipitous1

02-25-2008, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Politigal <Snip>
Could you elaborate on her message board fantasies?
From what I read -- it seemed truthful
You are somehow connected to the case.... Well, if that is what you concluded from the subpart which mentioned me, it comes as no shock that you would accept everything else she wrote. But in my opinion, that alone (her mention of me) was just icing on her inedible message-board cake.

No, gstickley, that does not mean I rejected everything in her piece. It just left me wondering about some of the non-message-board-related stuff. And no, I do not want to go clogging down memory lane regarding JKA's online personae.

I hope we do hear of more "twists in the tale", J. J., published with an appreciation of facts and context [which, BTW Politigal, would probably exclude the National Enquirer]. That would be preferable to the twists in the 'tails' evidenced here lately. MOO . . .:rolleyes:

tonyGricar

02-25-2008, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
No, but doing my impersonation of The Amazing Criswell, I predict that a little (though not much) more sunlight may shine on this case, on the day that the dawn comes from the west. ;)

Right now, perhaps only four to five people will understand that message (and three to four of those don't post). [/*]Pretty amusing stuff, although the sunlight is more akin to silly putty. It's going to be quite a streeeeeetch.

Should be an article tomorrow.

Cloudbuster

02-25-2008, 11:00 PM

I understand the west.;)

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Pretty amusing stuff, although the sunlight is more akin to silly putty. It's going to be quite a streeeeeetch.

Should be an article tomorrow. [/*]

You are one of the five, but you did prove my point. :)

I'm thinking of a potential message in a bottle. It's so obscure, to whom would be directed to, and potentially from whom.

This alone won't move my numbers.

The Wreck of the Titan was mentioned, and you will see how ironic that is. ;)

As I said, a little light, but not a lot.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I understand the west.;) [/*]

If you really do, I want the powerball numbers for this week, because I wouldn't have understood it this time last week.

tonyGricar

02-25-2008, 11:14 PM

Teaser from the CDT:

Monday, Feb. 25, 2008
9:22pm EDT
Coming: Gricar case update
Wonder what's new in the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar?

A new investigator has been working on the 2005 case and there are some twists and turns.

Don't miss Pete Bosak's report Tuesday in the Centre Daily Times and back here online.

J. J. in Phila

02-25-2008, 11:17 PM

I think "twists and turns" is quite apropos.

Cinderella

02-25-2008, 11:40 PM

So you think that you know what they are going to say?

J. J. in Phila

02-26-2008, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
So you think that you know what they are going to say? [/*]

As sure as the sun rises in the West, or at least the light from auroras caused by solar flares. It can be hard to tell in a pink sky. ;)

I know some of it. Mostly the parts I do know about, I don't give a great deal of weight. A bit, but not much.

Cinderella

02-26-2008, 01:09 AM

J. J., The sun rises in the east not the west. Is it a theory or is there evidence concerning Ray's disappearance? Also wonder what time it will be posted?

J. J. in Phila

02-26-2008, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., The sun rises in the east not the west. Is it a theory or is there evidence concerning Ray's disappearance? Also wonder what time it will be posted? [/*]

Today, the the light came from the West, Pamela West, author of 20/20 Vision. (It's good science fiction, and enjoyable, BTW).

I posted this, a few hours ago:

No, but doing my impersonation of The Amazing Criswell, I predict that a little (though not much) more sunlight may shine on this case, on the day that the dawn comes from the west.

Right now, perhaps only four to five people will understand that message (and three to four of those don't post). Put it might help prove a point, in the future.

I was sending a message, that, when I sent it, only a few people could have gotten; the only poster that got it was TG, because PB had talked to him, as the story indicated. Ms. West, might have been another. Rickard, Weaver, and any other reporters, anyone they told (Sloane) would have got it, but no one else.

The only thing I can see, if this was not a massive coincidence, is that someone was sending a message. Who was sending that message and to whom it was being sent, would be question? Virtually no one knew that, 15 years before, West had talked to RFG about the Aardsma case (the murder in the stacks). There was no linking that I could find between West (even using her married name), the title 20/20 Vision and RFG, after several computer searches.

I think that the West connection is possibly a coincidence, but one heck of a coincidence. We are beginning to get too many coincidences, however, especially with Wiley and some others.

J. J. in Phila

02-26-2008, 09:42 AM

Now, I'm going to preface this by saying that there are possibly a few hundred thousand people who use the name "Ray G." on the Internet, This is interesting, but by no means definitive.

On the Amazon review comments for the book 20/20 Vision, this comment is recorded:

"quick deliver, good product"
Date: 11/16/2006 Rated by Buyer: Ray G.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/seller/feedback.html?ie=UTF8&asin=0345367367&pageNumber=9&marketplaceSeller=1&seller=AVGTBM0QT6YHP

This very easily could have been a coincidence.

J. J. in Phila

02-26-2008, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by sherryhefner
Dang, I have the toughest time on this thread! I didn't understand any of the West riddle....even after the explanation.

I may not post much but I am here everyday. Hopefully I'll catch on sooner or later... [/*]

I sent a message to a few people by using the term "West," because the book was written by Pamela West. Anyone that knew that the story was coming would get the message. Tony, who was quoted, obviously knew.

If this wasn't a coincidence, was someone using this to send a message (like I just did)?

Chump#7

02-26-2008, 11:59 AM

J.J. was just privy to the release of this article in advance, sherry http://www.centredaily.com/ (http://) Whoop Dee Doo...

It's the cover story of the centre daily times is the link isn't working.

J. J. in Phila

02-26-2008, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by sherryhefner
What does West's book have to do with RG missing?

Also, are you saying, JJ, that someone might be posting secret messages here that could be observed by RG? [/*]

Assuming that it is not a coincidence:

If RFG was familiar with the book (that's unknown) and he wanted to send a message to someone else familiar with the book, that would be a way to do it. Interestingly, one of the characters in the book does something similar.

Now, that assumes two things:

1. RFG was familiar with the book (I don't think that too unlikely, since he knew the author, even if she didn't send him a copy. He did know she was writing it and she had published earlier works under the same pen name.).

2. The person intended to get the message actually read the book and would get the clue (and that limits to whom the message was directed).

And, another possibility, even if the clues were a message, RFG didn't send it. A quite brilliant killer did (but the quite brilliant killer would have to be aware of the fact that West and Gricar worked together in the late 1980's).

And, it may be a coincidence, but that is really strange if it is one.

The book and be shelved, temporarily. Look to see if there is any evidence that RFG had the means to get out of Lewisburg.