Odds and Ends, Pt. I [Archive] - Page 3 - In Session Message Boards

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I don't believe for one minute LE thinks RG was in the SOS, with or without a mystery woman.

I believe they think it was possible and certainly probable that RFG was in the parking lot.

Did Sloane happen to mention at any point along the way when he last talked in depth to RG, considering Sloane was off on sick leave before the disappearance? Did LE check out his alibi for Friday?

Unknown.

I have yet to hear Sloane's reasoning behind saying RG could have caused his own disappearance. Is there any?

Yes, and it more than wishful thinking. Some of it is money, on which he's been on the record. We do know that Sloane discussed a walkaway situation with Sloane at least once.

The problem here is that anything here deals with motivation, the least troubling aspect of a walkaway scenario. Means in the key question; if RFG didn't have the means to get out of Lewisburg, he didn't walk away.

Typically if a best friend mysteriously disappears, no best friend is going to say it's a walkaway without the utmost of solid evidence to back it up. Why has Sloane?

Perhaps because he has had in depth conversations with RFG over the years.

I haven't read anything that indicates in any way RG was planning his own disappearance. It seems that after the profiler talked to Sloane, the theory was immediately suicide, not a planned walkaway disappearance.

TG posted that Sloane definitely doesn't think it was suicide.

Any idea why RG's best friend never mentions foul play as holding possibility? Curious here because my best friends and I agree......if any one of us disappeared, NONE of us would ever believe it was voluntary. Simply not in our natures to do so no matter what the circumstances.

As noted, RFG did discuss things with Sloane, including the Wiley case.

There are others Spotts, the story about endorsing MM, that indicate that RFG wasn't planning to "be here," later in the year. Neither of those comments anticipate murder, though both could indicate suicide. We know Sloane doesn't think it was suicide; what does that leave?

I'll play Thge Amazing Krizwell again. I strongly suspect that RFG said things that would point to walkaway; I would expect multiple sources (we've seen a few already). Saying and doing are two different things, which is why the focus should be on if RFG had the MEANS to walk away. If he did, it's about 85-90% probably that there is evidence; if that evidence isn't there, he probably didn't.

Politigal

03-13-2008, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It's irrelevant, but she went to school there. I'll point out that Bellefonte is 3 hours, 20 minutes from Canada, by car. That isn't particularly relevant either. [/*]

JJ - your attitude sux....

How the hel* do you know what's relevant?

You don't.

hammer

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I strongly suspect someone is lying, and there's nothing Amazing about it at all.

I strongly suspect that Sloane was closer to RFG than JKA ever was. I have friends that I share things with and people I do not. JKA, in fairness to her, never claimed personal closeness to RFG. From her Google pages, they was very little personal insight into RFG.

I stongly suspect that the only lying is the self-delusion of some posters.

As far as reasoning, the Wiley issue is a moot point as far as RG, IMO. JKA made it clear it wasn't RG talking about it, and she couldn't even remember if that was the name.

As just indicated, JKA wasn't one of RFG's "better friends." Also, her memory was quite poor (and that doesn't make her a bad person), to the point that she couldn't remember if she saw RFG on 4/14/05.

However, it could prove interesting to know who the parties were who were in such a discussion........... After all, if it PROVES to SS that RG walked away, it may prove someone else had an interest in disappearing LE.

We also have the student that TOL knew.

The statement regarding 'surprised that is all the money' showing up........It seems that was an accounting of monies in a joint account with LG, one bank account, and with FDIC limit, it makes sense. As far as where else he had money, I believe we were told that is none of our business, and I believe that likely includes me, you and Sloane.

The salary of RFG was a matter of public record. Now, I can't help that, but Sloane would be aware of it. As to the FDIC limits, yes, for one bank. Without taking into account interest, any outside money (sale of property, car sale), or deductions, RFG was netting in excess of $70,000 per year during the five years prior to his disappearance (Probably closer to an $80,000 average). Do the math.

Since LG has reported nothing to indicate the investigation should come to a halt, I seriously doubt there is anything to follow. I trust LG would quickly call off the search for RG if that had occurred.

You make a very faulty assumption. The question is where was the money before he disappeared, not access to it afterward.

As far as the ballgame, do you know for a fact that it was Sloane who introduced that idea to LE?

TG mentioned it.

Aside from those reasons, I have never read anything else that Sloane has used as reason for believing his best friend walked away. Perhaps he could enlighten us..........enquiring minds would like to know how he arrived at that conclusion.

As far as I know, the full reasons that the "better friend" have not been published. They are known, however. They deal with motivation, which at this point are not too important.

Why isn't motivation too important? Assume that it could be established that RFG was fascinated with the concept of walking away and there is ample evidence. Perhaps even the mentioned wanting to do it. If that is true, would that prevent him from being murdered? Yes or no? (Hint: It's "no.")

You should be focusing on if there is evidence that RFG had the MEANS to walkaway. If the MEANS are not there, RFG probably did not walk away, even if if he had the motivation to do so.

If RFG had the MEANS to walk away becomes, ultimately, the key question.

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 02:40 AM

Just to update LW list of people involved in some type of a conspiracy from earlier in this thread, PEF, DZ, Dixon, PB, Clay, Bryant, J. J., Pamela West, Skerchock, the reporter at WJAC, Young and Sloane.

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

JJ - your attitude sux....

How the hel* do you know what's relevant?

You don't.

hammer [/*]

I do know an insinuation regarding LG, that it's some how suspicious that she lives not all that close to the Canadian border. hammer

In actuality, RFG lived in what I'd call a short distance (even by my limited driving standards) from the Canadian border, and did for 25 years, at least (I don't know if there is a ferry from Cleveland to Canada).

You've done this to PEF, please don't start with LG, unless you have basis for believing RFG is just across the border.

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

SOOO......instead of my asking questions about the evidence which has been presented in various forms by various parties at various times via various avenues, you would rather I stand in Lewisburg looking in a thousand directions following millions of vehicles, under millions of names, any of which could have been the conveyance and name by which the hard working, dedicated, no reason to leave his job, his family, DA , with no motive for leaving, in Lewisburg?

First, instead of trying to say all the evidence/witnesses is wrong, which is you are basically trying to do, I say look to see if what is known is related to what happened to RFG.

When you take a look at vehicles that RFG could have purchased at the time he disappeared in an area in which he could have used it to leave Lewisburg, you looking a something well below "millions." I would suspect the number would be below 300. It might be a two digit number.

As to someone else purchasing the car for him, you now have about 25 people that likely could have purchased it.

It's your theory.....if it is as great as you think it is, LE should be more than open to listening to your plan of 'how to do it' and assisting you in that search.

Perhaps the are. I certainly hope so.

sherrijean981

03-13-2008, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

As to someone else purchasing the car for him, you now have about 25 people that likely could have purchased it.
[/*]

Why did it have to be a purchased car? How many of those in the "Inner Circle" had access to an extra vehicle, that could have been loaned for a long period of time? No payments, no license transfers and no insurance in his name, just a loaner with the other person paying all expenses necessary except the gas/oil/water/ or flat tires/minor tune-up expenses for keeping it in good running condition. Maybe a car inherited from a deceased spouse, mother/father, sister/brother, or child that was just sitting around and has been in running order and licensed/insured and could be lent out to a friend who needed it?

That opens a whole new theory of escape.

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Don't forget to deduct $100K off the total, for a mortgage, vehicle, new computer.
Also don't forget to deduct the money necessary for living, to include utillity bills, vehicle insurance, gas and repairs, dining and entertaining, vacation monies, monies gifted, clothing, personal items, etc.

LW, I am taking this into account, and it still seems low. RFG had a reputation for being "frugal." It's very hard for someone "frugal" to live in Bellefonte, PA and basically spend $45,000+ a year on these things.

If all known accounts of RG's money remain untouched, your theory of walkaway with it's lack of means and motivation seems more than outlandish but then we won't know until you go to LE and pressure them to investigate your theory.
JMO [/*]

I have not looked too closely at money in regard to walkaway, because it is unknown to us (and frankly, it should be unknown to us). However, Sloane, who was aware of RFG's lifestyle, thinks it too little. PB recently, when asked what he'd do if he was investigating, included a forensic examination of RFG assets.

The presumed amount is sufficient to raise a red flag that says, "This should be checked." (Not by posters, but by LE.) I actually doubt if it is the key issue, because I can come up with other reasons for someone moving money out of Centre County.

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Why did it have to be a purchased car? How many of those in the "Inner Circle" had access to an extra vehicle, that could have been loaned for a long period of time? No payments, no license transfers and no insurance in his name, just a loaner with the other person paying all expenses necessary except the gas/oil/water/ or flat tires/minor tune-up expenses for keeping it in good running condition. Maybe a car inherited from a deceased spouse, mother/father, sister/brother, or child that was just sitting around and has been in running order and licensed/insured and could be lent out to a friend who needed it?

That opens a whole new theory of escape. [/*]

Good point, however, they would have had to retrieve the vehicle. Even if RFG returned it to the parking lot behind the Court House, he'd still need to get out of Bellefonte. Either he would have the vehicle with him, the owner picked it up, or it's been parked someplace for nearly three years.

sherrijean981

03-13-2008, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Good point, however, they would have had to retrieve the vehicle. Even if RFG returned it to the parking lot behind the Court House, he'd still need to get out of Bellefonte. Either he would have the vehicle with him, the owner picked it up, or it's been parked someplace for nearly three years. [/*]

Maybe he wouldn't have to return it until he was done with it, "however long it takes". They would still continue keeping the license and insurance on it. Of course they would have to have a place to send the tags to him, maybe a PO Box he set up or a prearranged place.

How far would a friend go for another friend?

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Maybe he wouldn't have to return it until he was done with it, "however long it takes". They would still continue keeping the license and insurance on it. Of course they would have to have a place to send the tags to him, maybe a PO Box he set up or a prearranged place.

How far would a friend go for another friend? [/*]

It's possible, but they'd end up having to send the paperwork to RFG, somewhere. If it's one of the Inner Circle, LE could ask, *Okay, where is your second car?**

My particular point is, if RFG left on his own, evidence would exist. If that evidence does not exist, then it becomes very unlikely that he walked away. PB was absolutely right about trying to eliminate a possibility.

It does stun me that some posters don't want to look, even knowing if the result is negative, it greatly lowers the chances of a walkaway.

day2day

03-13-2008, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

SOOO......instead of my asking questions about the evidence which has been presented in various forms by various parties at various times via various avenues, you would rather I stand in Lewisburg looking in a thousand directions following millions of vehicles, under millions of names, any of which could have been the conveyance and name by which the hard working, dedicated, no reason to leave his job, his family, DA , with no motive for leaving, in Lewisburg?

It's your theory.....if it is as great as you think it is, LE should be more than open to listening to your plan of 'how to do it' and assisting you in that search. It certainly is nothing a board poster can do, certain no one but LE can do it, so why ask me to look for evidence of a vehicle?
------------------> BPD. Maybe they can assist you in your search.
JMO [/*]

And whatever they do ...leave PF out of this...do NOT ask her anymore questions...do NOT interview friends, neighbors and co-workers..and while we are at it...don't interview pf's brother.

WAIT....that is exactly what they have been doing for nearly three years...hammer

gstickley

03-13-2008, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It's possible, but they'd end up having to send the paperwork to RFG, somewhere. If it's one of the Inner Circle, LE could ask, *Okay, where is your second car?**

My particular point is, if RFG left on his own, evidence would exist. If that evidence does not exist, then it becomes very unlikely that he walked away. PB was absolutely right about trying to eliminate a possibility.

It does stun me that some posters don't want to look, even knowing if the result is negative, it greatly lowers the chances of a walkaway. [/*]

I don't know for sure, but I'd think the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania would have been able to check on vehicle titling/registration records in 3 whole years. With the advent of the computer age, which I am pretty sure has even made it into PA, I don't think it would be an impossible task. Of course, BPD had all the help it needed from every other agency, so maybe it's already been done & nothing found. And . . . in light of the statements made by MM, Weaver, other VIPs, 'no stone has been left unturned', so maybe you're just 'spittin in the wind'. And, since LE has allegedly been monitoring this board, wouldn't you think they'd have already taken your repeated suggestion months & months & months ago? Maybe they're waiting for a 'special time' to tell you whether they found anything.

Now, it seems that checking on RG's possible 'escape plan' from PF & Centre Co. is the only thing remaining to know about his 'disappearance'. Does that mean nothing will ever been done about a possible 'foul play' if the 'escape plan' is never discovered????? How long do you plan on waiting on LE to take up your repeated suggestion??? Three (3) years is quite a long time to even begin a 'foul play' investigation.

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by day2day

And whatever they do ...leave PF out of this...do NOT ask her anymore questions...do NOT interview friends, neighbors and co-workers..and while we are at it...don't interview pf's brother.

Please indicate where anyone has said to "leave PF out of this...do NOT ask her anymore questions... ?" Every time I've posted the Inner Circle list, whose name is first on the list?

WAIT....that is exactly what they have been doing for nearly three years...hammer [/*]

Well, for nearly three years, you have been saying, polygraph PEF, check out here whereabouts, see if she could have made the phone call. All were very good questions when asked; all have been done. You are still on it!

day2day

03-13-2008, 07:01 PM

And i will be saying it for three more years..until i am satisfied that she has told the truth..

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by day2day
And i will be saying it for three more years..until i am satisfied that she has told the truth.. [/*]

1. It is not really up to you to be satisfied.

2. I doubt that you could be satisfied.

Serendipitous1

03-13-2008, 09:37 PM

MOO - I was just doing some quick arithmetic. By my count RG has been missing 1,063 days. If one spent, on average, just 1 hour on this case for each day RG has been missing (contemplating, reading, researching, posting, messaging, writing...whatever), that adds up to the equivalent of more than one-half of a work year.

Arguably, some have exceeded this average time spent. And, of course, there are the stay-at-home moms/dads, the unemployed and the retired/semi-retired. But if one has invested that kind of time...especially if it is toward a man never met...I think it demonstrates an extraordinary commitment. So, regardless of particular persuasions, or whether one posts here, just reads, or neither, my hat is off to those who remain interested.

May God bless you...and Ray Gricar and his loved ones.

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Are you proposing that LE DOESN'T use the process of elimination to determine possibility and hasn't used that same process for as long as LE has existed? Are we to suppose that is some NEW bright idea that has just been introduced?

Under DZ, they have not.

You state that it stuns you that some posters don't want to look. Look where??? In the PA DMV records, which would likely be the only place to look? Aren't those records private?.......are you asking posters to do something illegal?

No, I'm suggesting LE does something legal, but it stuns me why some posters don't encourage that.

I think it would be much wiser for you to pose that request to the BPD who has the authority to do so, than to blame posters for not doing your bidding.
JMO [/*]

I hope that by it being mentioned here, it might spark something with LE.

day2day

03-13-2008, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

1. It is not really up to you to be satisfied.

2. I doubt that you could be satisfied. [/*]

Obviously....you feel that i am not nearly as important as you are...and once again you are wrong.

I have been here since day1 and will be here until I find out the truth ...at the rate LE is going..I will be here for a very long time..

jmo..

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Obviously....you feel that i am not nearly as important as you are...and once again you are wrong.

No, I just feel that your satisfaction really isn't important in this case. The standard is not "Is Day satisfied."

I have been here since day1 and will be here until I find out the truth ...at the rate LE is going..I will be here for a very long time..

You've been here since the first months, but the questions you've asked in the first months have been answered.

Now you are more of hindrance than a help.

ladyheartfixer

03-13-2008, 10:45 PM

ok...can we please try to be adults here and not let ego's get in the way? or is that what the plan is...get this board closed and then everything can be left unanswered and unmotivated to a conclusion? There are many of us who have been here from the beginning months...I don't know what is going on but I feel like some PM's and apologies are necessary here...

ok...I'm done playing mother but I just don't know why certain ppl on this board have to control and belittle everything said....everyone's opinion is important...

good eventide all...

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 10:51 PM

LW, if you think that people shouldn't look for evidence, then you should immediately change you name to "Woolly Logic."

Your posts, especially this last one, seems to be saying, "I know what happened, don't confuse me with evidice and don't look for any more." :rolleyes:

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 11:02 PM

Serendipitous1

03-13-2008, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
ok...can we please try to be adults here and not let ego's get in the way? or is that what the plan is...get this board closed and then everything can be left unanswered and unmotivated to a conclusion? There are many of us who have been here from the beginning months...I don't know what is going on but I feel like some PM's and apologies are necessary here...

ok...I'm done playing mother but I just don't know why certain ppl on this board have to control and belittle everything said....everyone's opinion is important...

good eventide all... Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
OK..OK..PE...you remind me of my puppy who does the same thing over and over to train me to do his bidding...I'm getting tired of reading the same post on very thread...I'm at work right now and have enough headaches...so tell me watcha want!!!!! Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
ok..so is that light at the end of the tunnel the sun? or a train??? Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
ok..let me see if I can guess...if you post something on every thread they will ALL disappear??? Originally posted by ParlorElephant
Called getting the word out, LHF. Never 'group posted' before, as you know if you follow. But PE is getting mighty fixed about the apparent games being played with the public here, especially those here in Happy Valley. 7/22/06. Some things never change, I guess. JMOO

Politigal

03-13-2008, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

No, I just feel that your satisfaction really isn't important in this case. The standard is not "Is Day satisfied."

You've been here since the first months, but the questions you've asked in the first months have been answered.

Now you are more of hindrance than a help. [/*]

That all depends on *who* you are trying to help.

Of course, we all know who *you* are cheerleading for.

turn on the radio whaddya hear - it's jj in philly doing a cheer - can you shake it - can you break it - can you alabammy make it

J. J. in Phila

03-13-2008, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

That all depends on *who* you are trying to help.

Of course, we all know who *you* are cheerleading for. [/*]

The solution to the case. The more publicity that is out there that gets people to think about it, the better.

Right now, I'd like walkaway to either be exceptionally strong or down where suicide is. I don't call a murder/walkaway percentage of 42%/43%, respectively, to be "exceptionally strong (nor would I at 40%/45% murder/walkaway split strong, either).

CB got it (and she thinks it's murder, if I understand her posts); why can't you?

day2day

03-13-2008, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Contrarians are rather commonplace in political arenas, and particularly those involving environmental issues/scientific knowledge where the public wants informed.
Modern day contrarians serve on message boards to keep issues from escalating. Some arrive on message boards to disrupt and distract, while others serve to constantly 'muddy the waters' every time a specific issue is raised.
Take your pick........

The contrarian demands endless analysis of issues to prevent any action from being taken rather than to ensure that the most reasonable conclusion be arrived at.

Contrarians often refer to their endless demands for more study and their claims that doubts still remain;
Orwellian doublespeak philosophy.

The contrarian simply wants to throw dust in people's eyes so they can't see what's really going on, and control.

The combination of lower level and upper level contrarian will use tools from both levels; berating, belittling, sarcasm, insulting, manipulating what was said, discouraging other views or insights that are contrary to the 'protective view'. Anyone who points in the direction the contrarian is 'protecting', will have dirt immediately thrown at them, in one form or another, as they are once again coerced back onto the ONLY permissable path.
JMO [/*]

Great post, LW. I don't know what is more frustrating -knowing that little is being done to solve this case or the name calling and insults one must endure to post their feelings and opinions on this case. FWIW -i have been called lots worse by much better people and i am still breathing..go figure ..!!

day2day

03-13-2008, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

That all depends on *who* you are trying to help.

Of course, we all know who *you* are cheerleading for.

turn on the radio whaddya hear - it's jj in philly doing a cheer - can you shake it - can you break it - can you alabammy make it [/*]

Exactly.

day2day

03-13-2008, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

You aren't asking us to look at evidence.....you have no evidence of what you are looking for.

WE as board posters, have NO way of finding your evidence for you and you know that. You then come off with the 'stunned that board posters aren't looking' for something that would be illegal for us to look for. Go figure..........
When you want a loaf of bread, do you go to the tailor for it?
GO to LE, if you want the answer. They are the ones with the records, NOT us.
JMO [/*]

One day we are supposed to believe he is such an insider that he has seen a pic of the MW (and btw she does resemble pf according to the insider **winks**)..and this same poster has spewed the car theory for HOW long? Certainly if he is such an insider -he could simply ask LE to check his theory..he wouldn't need us to do it for him...

Then again..maybe he isn't as much of an insider as he wants everyone to believe he is....:shrug:

jmo

day2day

03-13-2008, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Now you are more of hindrance than a help. [/*]

Actually your lame arse doesn't really deserve a reply..but what the heck..
The ONLY thing I am hindering here is YOUR agenda. Period. I hope you know i'm not goin anywhere anytime soon....

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

You aren't asking us to look at evidence.....you have no evidence of what you are looking for.

What circular and woolly logic! There is no way to know, one way of the other if the evidence exists unless LE looks.

WE as board posters, have NO way of finding your evidence for you and you know that. You then come off with the 'stunned that board posters aren't looking' for something that would be illegal for us to look for.

I am stunned that some posters do not want to look. You quote above is a prime example, "..you have no evidence of what you are looking for."

"WE" can ask the question and hope that those people who can answer it will look.

You on the other hand want to discuss now a 12 member conspiracy theory, with nothing that actually connects these people (several of whom are actually competitors).

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Actually your lame arse doesn't really deserve a reply..but what the heck..
The ONLY thing I am hindering here is YOUR agenda. Period. I hope you know i'm not goin anywhere anytime soon.... [/*]

You know, until a few days ago, there was a nice link in PB's blog to this site, so that Centre Countians could click an read it. You will note that it is now gone.

As I've say, Day, you are a hindrance at this point, not a help.

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Come on, Paul Harvey. Tell us the rest of the story. Nah.....really didn't think I would hear it from you.
JMO [/*]

I think you can check the blog entry yourself. One of the relevant parties is now aware of it.

Needless to say, a link to this site was removed.

day2day

03-14-2008, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You know, until a few days ago, there was a nice link in PB's blog to this site, so that Centre Countians could click an read it. You will note that it is now gone.

As I've say, Day, you are a hindrance at this point, not a help. [/*]

Yanno jj..i am forwarding the pm you just sent to Coldwater\and the CDT. I think it would be nice for them to hear how PB talks about people he doesn't even know..( a real LACK of proffesionalism on his part) IF he indeed said the things you pm'd...we shall also see what he says-and of course what the CDT thinks of his "name calling" also...

As for being a hindrance..like i said before I'm not going anywhere.and i really don't think anyone else is leaving soon either.

Obviously if pb removed the link because of anything I said -he can't take criticism (much like you) ..and I think I have been VERY fair..and kept most of my thoughts about him to myself. IMO if he can't take criticism he better find a new job..cause it comes with the territory..

gstickley

03-14-2008, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

What circular and woolly logic! There is no way to know, one way of the other if the evidence exists unless LE looks.

I am stunned that some posters do not want to look. You quote above is a prime example, "..you have no evidence of what you are looking for."

"WE" can ask the question and hope that those people who can answer it will look.

You on the other hand want to discuss now a 12 member conspiracy theory, with nothing that actually connects these people (several of whom are actually competitors). [/*]

Okay. This message is intended for any/all law enforcement officials who are said to monitor this board because I know you will listen to a poster on a message board.

#1. Read faster.
#2. Find out why the person now assigned to this case had to wait almost 3 yrs. to check into the files & release info.
#3. Find out why the officer in charge did not do anything about 'mistakements' made by the 1st investigating officer.
#4. Find out why it's taken 3 years to get anything from BPD.
#5. Release info. on the cell phone.
#6. Interview RG's only 2 best friends, Walker & Sloane.
#7. Re-interview/interrogate PF.
#8. Release info. from the courthouse camera(s) for 04/14/05.
#9. Release info. from the courthouse camera(s) for 04/15/05.
#10. For heaven's sake, please check DMV records to see what vehicles might have been titled/registered in RG's name or any other name he might have used around the time of his disappearance, for who knows how long prior to his disappearance, for the time since his disappearance.
#11. Interview the owner(s) of the Tyrone antique shop.
#12. Interview neighbors of RG.
#13. Interview all co-workers in DA's office & all courthouse employees.
#14. Do a complete search of RG's residence. (A little late now, but there is luminol.)
#15. Find out where & every person working in DA's office was on 04/14/05 & 04/15/05; get alibies also.
#16. Get out into the community & the county & let the citizens know you are actively investigating the disappearance of Ray F. Gricar.

What could it hurt to release everything? Three (3) years have passed & very little has been released; however, Ray Gricar is still missing.

(This is my list; I'm sure other posters have other suggestions.)

jmo

Serendipitous1

03-14-2008, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
You know, until a few days ago, there was a nice link in PB's blog to this site, so that Centre Countians could click an read it. You will note that it is now gone.

As I've say, Day, you are a hindrance at this point, not a help. Would PB's second thought be our fault....or just yours? And while I might not agree with day2day's tact, I do not see how she has been any sort of hindrance. Then again...I am not the Amazing Criswell! Go figure. MOO

gstickley

03-14-2008, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
ok...can we please try to be adults here and not let ego's get in the way? or is that what the plan is...get this board closed and then everything can be left unanswered and unmotivated to a conclusion? There are many of us who have been here from the beginning months...I don't know what is going on but I feel like some PM's and apologies are necessary here...

ok...I'm done playing mother but I just don't know why certain ppl on this board have to control and belittle everything said....everyone's opinion is important...

good eventide all... [/*]

Don't leave Lady. There aren't many adults here & some ego's seem about to explode, I believe. (I've also thought the end result might be to get the board closed.)

I was glad to see your post. However, it sure didn't take long for you to get blasted. Welcome to the crowd, lhf. You've been around such a long time; please don't let 'bloomin'idjuts' run you off. Actually, we do need a "mother": one with a switch, a board, a rubber hose . . . You just have to get into your head that only one or two opinions are important, you know, the 'controllers of the board'. But, some of us are here for the duration with our 'unimportant' opinions, if for nothing else than to keep the 'bloomin'idjuts' busy!!!!! :biggrin:

day2day

03-14-2008, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Would PB's second thought be our fault....or just yours? And while I might not agree with day2day's tact, I do not see how she has been any sort of hindrance. Then again...I am not the Amazing Criswell! Go figure. MOO [/*]

I guess if you expect a straight-forward answer to a VERY easy question..like "what article of clothing was used to scent the dogs" and after nearly THREE years..you receive an "i think" and a person gets a little aggravated over the fact that there are NO solid answers to even the EASIEST questions...PB pulls links and resorts to the same "name calling" jj is famous for. And that makes me a hindrance...hammer !!

go figure...: :shrug:

gstickley

03-14-2008, 12:45 AM

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Yanno jj..i am forwarding the pm you just sent to Coldwater\and the CDT. I think it would be nice for them to hear how PB talks about people he doesn't even know..( a real LACK of proffesionalism on his part) IF he indeed said the things you pm'd...we shall also see what he says-and of course what the CDT thinks of his "name calling" also...

Go right ahead. You will note that the link was removed.

If they take a look at your posts about PEF, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to have there name associated with yours.

As for being a hindrance..like i said before I'm not going anywhere.and i really don't think anyone else is leaving soon either.

Thank you demonstrating that your opinions are more important that solving the case.

(Ironically, I've just posted how if LE does not find evidence of walkaway, the possibility drops like a stone.)

Obviously if pb removed the link because of anything I said -he can't take criticism (much like you) ..and I think I have been VERY fair..and kept most of my thoughts about him to myself.

I don't recall any criticism you've made of PB, but I have noted your constant false attacks on PEF. Even then, when you posted some of those questions initially, I've said they were quite valid, but they have been answered.

BTW, I think your above post pretty much bears my PM out.

day2day

03-14-2008, 01:04 AM

I hope that you also forwarded the pm to the other poster that PB chose to defame.

BTW my opinions about pf are just that..MY OPINIONS...just like you and PB have the right to yours..I also have the right to mine. Simple as that.

Amazing that big ole men like you and PB choose to "name call"..

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by day2day

I guess if you expect a straight-forward answer to a VERY easy question..like "what article of clothing was used to scent the dogs" and after nearly THREE years..you receive an "i think" and a person gets a little aggravated over the fact that there are NO solid answers to even the EASIEST questions...PB pulls links and resorts to the same "name calling" jj is famous for. And that makes me a hindrance...hammer !!

Day, first, you like to accuse people of things, call people names as it were, and then complain about it. I do not remember ever referring to you in those terms, on board.

I also don't recall you posting any criticism of PB or the Press in general (LW has more than a few members in her conspiracy theory, but not you).

None the less, the link to this site has been removed; I can understand it. Someone interested in the Gricar case will have less of a chance. I do not feel that helps the case and you were informed privately. You chose to bring it here in a more public forum.

gstickley

03-14-2008, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You know, until a few days ago, there was a nice link in PB's blog to this site, so that Centre Countians could click an read it. You will note that it is now gone.

As I've say, Day, you are a hindrance at this point, not a help. [/*]

Whoaaa, Day. Is it possible that a young lady from Ohio could possibly get such a response from Mr. PB & the CDT????? 'A nice link in PB's blog to this site, so Centre Countians could click an (should be a.n.d) read it.' Day, you know how all Centre Countians rush home at the end of the day to read the CDT & check out PB's blog. What did you say or do to get the link removed? What will Centre Countians do now????? Wow, Day, I underestimated you & your influence, for which I am truly sorry.
And 'as I've s.a.i.d. (not say)' I don't see how you are a hindrance at this point, nor do I think it is up to any poster(s) on this board or any other to determine that you or any other poster to be a 'hindrance, not a help'. Thought this was an opinion board. Guess everyone's expected to agree with 'one' opinion. Like that's ever gonna happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by day2day
I hope that you also forwarded the pm to the other poster that PB chose to defame.

BTW my opinions about pf are just that..MY OPINIONS...just like you and PB have the right to yours..I also have the right to mine. Simple as that.

Amazing that big ole men like you and PB choose to "name call".. [/*]

Day, you are entitled you your opinions, but, likewise, so is everyone else. You don't seem to like that.

It amazes me that someone posts, and then gets upset because someone outside judges their quality, or lack thereof. They also have a clear right to decide not to link to this site.

In any event, I think it is unfortunate that PB found it necessary to remove the link; I think it might have been helpful. I can understand why he did.

There are a lot of "I" and "my" in your posts. This seems to more about you than it is about RFG.

day2day

03-14-2008, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

Whoaaa, Day. Is it possible that a young lady from Ohio could possibly get such a response from Mr. PB & the CDT????? 'A nice link in PB's blog to this site, so Centre Countians could click an (should be a.n.d) read it.' Day, you know how all Centre Countians rush home at the end of the day to read the CDT & check out PB's blog. What did you say or do to get the link removed? What will Centre Countians do now????? Wow, Day, I underestimated you & your influence, for which I am truly sorry.
And 'as I've s.a.i.d. (not say)' I don't see how you are a hindrance at this point, nor do I think it is up to any poster(s) on this board or any other to determine that you or any other poster to be a 'hindrance, not a help'. Thought this was an opinion board. Guess everyone's expected to agree with 'one' opinion. Like that's ever gonna happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/*]

I (just for jj) have no clue what i said that made pb pull the link?! Or what makes me a "fool" in his eyes. ..I also don't understand why PB sends JJ to tell people the names he calls them. And it really makes me sad that he pulled the link..but to blame it on ONE (or two) people is absurd.

And i can imagine that most people if they are interested in Mr. Gricars case can google and find us...

great post btw..:)

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 01:46 AM

gstickley

03-14-2008, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You've been the one saying (incorrectly, IMO) on how the press and family should be doing more. So the blog posts the link to this site, where maybe someone will read it and might just be able to provide a detail. Now, it's removed, and you seem to happy about it. This is more about you than it is about RFG, isn't it? [/*]

If the CDT & PB were truly interested in Mr. Gricar, the link would have stayed; in fact, it should have been there since 04/15-16/05, along with regular articles other than the famous blog for the past 3 years. I have no idea why it was removed, but I do feel there was no good reason for it.

And, where did the idea come from that I was 'happy' about it. The word 'happy' is not consistent with what I feel about the entire investigation or media coverage. I am thoroughly disgusted with both. This is not about me, & it certainly isn't about you. However, 'blaming' a poster for PB removing a link is almost hysterical. Kinda like expecting posters to solve the case, find out how RG 'escaped' Centre Co., not ask questions about certain people, & all the other garbage recently spewed forth.

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by day2day

I (just for jj) have no clue what i said that made pb pull the link?! Or what makes me a "fool" in his eyes. ..I also don't understand why PB sends JJ to tell people the names he calls them. And it really makes me sad that he pulled the link..but to blame it on ONE (or two) people is absurd.

[/*]

You assume that they will go to a message board, which was mentioned.

Perhaps because of the tenor of the posts, making groundless accusations. I believe that some members were cautioned about that, previously.

You also have to consider the effect on the average resident. You basically place yourself in a Donald Fenton situation (I have no love for Murtha, but he wasn't involved either). I hope you understand the effect of some of your posts. If you post something accusing someone, and it proves easily dismissed (actually dismissed long ago), it creates the impression that there is nothing worthwhile in any posts.

day2day

03-14-2008, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You assume that they will go to a message board, which was mentioned.

Perhaps because of the tenor of the posts, making groundless accusations. I believe that some members were cautioned about that, previously.

You also have to consider the effect on the average resident. You basically place yourself in a Donald Fenton situation (I have no love for Murtha, but he wasn't involved either). I hope you understand the effect of some of your posts. If you post something accusing someone, and it proves easily dismissed (actually dismissed long ago), it creates the impression that there is nothing worthwhile in any posts. [/*]

JJ...
You have said enough to me and about me tonight. Really. When is enough -enough with you?
You have me (almost well not counting the other poster) causing PB to remove the link from the CDT to this forum....even though there are MANY here with the same views and speak MUCH louder than i do.

I hope you understand the effect of your posts and pms.

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 02:09 AM

There is a battle for public opinion. My part of the battle is to recognize that there is still good chance that this was a murder (42% by my odds). Two things will help form that public opinion in favor of murder:

1. Ruling out or at least greatly reducing the possibility of something else.

2. Not coming up with fanciful theories, just to involve a favorite suspect (or a massive collusion of the press, LE and whomever else).

Serendipitous1

03-14-2008, 02:15 AM

I wanted to link a YouTube video, but am experiencing some difficulty tonight...unless y'all can get through:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6*2WE It's from 'The Wizard of Oz'...when Toto pulled back the curtain, and the white-haired munchkin bellowed, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain." Just a humbug, all around, I guess.

No one here has been more critical of PB than me. And I would gladly tell him why, if he cared to register here and PM me. But I would rather think the Amazing Criswell just ran out of magic.

day2day: "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." (attributed to Voltaire, and MO also).

Cloudbuster

03-14-2008, 02:30 AM

Cloudbuster

03-14-2008, 02:39 AM

Here is a blast from the past with good info from billy.
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/printthread.php?threadid=215636&perpage=40&pagenumber=15

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by day2day

JJ...
You have said enough to me and about me tonight. Really. When is enough -enough with you?

Day, I've said very little about you tonight. You may have said a lot about yourself, but that was your choice.

You have me (almost well not counting the other poster) causing PB to remove the link from the CDT to this forum....even though there are MANY here with the same views and speak MUCH louder than i do.

Day, you were posting when I received the e-mails (yes, plural), but we have three posters that have consistently saying it, and only one that has been saying it since "day 1." Now I think that questions and suggestions that you in the first months had merit, but they were answered, more than two years ago. You've dwelt on them and keep raising them.

If Coldwater were to request those e-mails to get some perspective on this board, and certain posters, I will forward them to her. I seriously doubt if this board will stay open afterward which is one reason I've not complained about the two posters. (I've only complained about two in my tenure here). I actually hope that one poster will ask the right question.

You do understand that your post do have an effect, and so did those of Donald Fenton? You do understand that these effects may hurt the case?

For the record, I think this board is useful to the case and is less hostile than in the summer of 2006.

If I could have gotten on another site, I would have, simply because of the tennor this one.

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

You have ruled out people way to quickly. [/*]

^There are many things John P. Murtha could be ruled in for, but not killing RFG.

tonyGricar

03-14-2008, 02:54 AM

Just checked PMs, IMs, and Email (first visit). My sympathy to you all.

Backing up threads...

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

day2day: "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." (attributed to Voltaire, and MO also). [/*]

It isn't a question of Day having a right to say it (and I've never seen her attack PB). It is that what she says has a cost, and that cost may not be one they are willing to pay, if their real goal is finding out what happened to RFG.

Serendipitous1

03-14-2008, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Day, I've said very little about you tonight. You may have said a lot about yourself, but that was your choice. Day, you were posting when I received the e-mails (yes, plural), but we have three posters that have consistently saying it, and only one that has been saying it since "day 1." Now I think that questions and suggestions that you in the first months had merit, but they were answered, more than two years ago. You've dwelt on them and keep raising them.

If Coldwater were to request those e-mails to get some perspective on this board, and certain posters, I will forward them to her. I seriously doubt if this board will stay open afterward which is one reason I've not complained about the two posters. (I've only complained about two in my tenure here). I actually hope that one poster will ask the right question.

You do understand that your post do have an effect, and so did those of Donald Fenton? You do understand that these effects may hurt the case?

For the record, I think this board is useful to the case and is less hostile than in the summer of 2006. If I could have gotten on another site, I would have, simply because of the tennor this one. For the record, I think Websleuths is for snobs...and therefore irrelevant, as well as irreverent...and I think the drawing card to this forum has been TG, although I do not completely understand why he chose to be here...and I can fully appreciate (though I do not share) certain posters' fixation with PF...and I can fully appreciate PB's efforts, except that I cannot fathom why he would ever attach himself to a non-CDT message board. That is precisely what poisoned JKA. MOO

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Just checked PMs, IMs, and Email (first visit). My sympathy to you all.

Backing up threads... [/*]

I do hope that no one is banned. If I wanted to complain, I'd have sent the emails to Coldwater.

I was saddened that the link was removed and greatly annoyed about what caused it to be removed.

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
For the record, I think Websleuths is for snobs...and therefore irrelevant, as well as irreverent...and I think the drawing card to this forum has been TG, although I do not completely understand why he chose to be here...and I can fully appreciate (though I do not share) certain posters' fixation with PF...and I can fully appreciate PB's efforts, except that I cannot fathom why he would ever attach himself to a non-CDT message board. That is precisely what poisoned JKA. MOO [/*]

The attachment was basically, **Here is a good place for discussions of the Gricar.** So far as I know, he's not a poster. It did give me a stunning view of how the public views the site and possibly the case.

I would have preferred webslueths, but it won't take my e-mail provider. I came in after BW left, after TG left the first time and after PE left. Webslueths seemed so much more civil and factual.

tonyGricar

03-14-2008, 03:36 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I do hope that no one is banned. If I wanted to complain, I'd have sent the emails to Coldwater.

I was saddened that the link was removed and greatly annoyed about what caused it to be removed. [/*]My point was missed, but alas... if the CDT removed the link for a reason, it should be for them to divulge. I'm guessing some confidences have been broken, which I've seen happen quite a bit lately, especially via PM. Does anyone here really think that many of the PMs and emails don't fly around? I've received some via 3rd party (as in, 1-2-3-TG). Personally, I'm more disappointed (as happened recently) at the secondary messenger than I am with any original's criticism. If info or comments weren't meant for me, then they weren't meant for me (or you). This isn't Jr. High.

In parting, oneupsmanship on who knows what, and how, can be a difficult proposition for all, especially as it relates to sources and their inevitable impact on the rumor mill.

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 03:52 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
My point was missed, but alas... if the CDT removed the link for a reason, it should be for them to divulge. I'm guessing some confidences have been broken, which I've seen happen quite a bit lately, especially via PM. Does anyone here really think that many of the PMs and emails don't fly around? I've received some via 3rd party (as in, 1-2-3-TG). Personally, I'm more disappointed (as happened recently) at the secondary messenger than I am with any original's criticism. If info or comments weren't meant for me, then they weren't meant for me (or you). This isn't Jr. High.

It wasn't marked confidential (some stuff is) and frankly wasn't solicited. I didn't wish them to be made an issue only to the posters in question, which is why I sent it via PM and not tried to be too specific.

In parting, oneupsmanship on who knows what, and how, can be a difficult proposition for all, especially as it relates to sources and their inevitable impact on the rumor mill. [/*]

My response to an earlier one was: "I'm on a political board, and can say that this is mild in comparison. "

sherrijean981

03-14-2008, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Actually your lame arse doesn't really deserve a reply..but what the heck..
The ONLY thing I am hindering here is YOUR agenda. Period. I hope you know i'm not goin anywhere anytime soon.... [/*]

Okay!! It is going too far now, insulting the physically handicapped!

I certainly hope you all stop the BS before this board gets shut down and no one will get their point across!

I want answers to what happened to RG, I don't care about hurt feelings, who can talk to LE, who's idea goes to PF, walk-away, murder, suicide. Ray Gricar is the only one who is important on this forum and it is time to wake up and get a grip!!!

sherrijean981

03-14-2008, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Okay. This message is intended for any/all law enforcement officials who are said to monitor this board because I know you will listen to a poster on a message board.

#1. Read faster.
#2. Find out why the person now assigned to this case had to wait almost 3 yrs. to check into the files & release info.
#3. Find out why the officer in charge did not do anything about 'mistakements' made by the 1st investigating officer.
#4. Find out why it's taken 3 years to get anything from BPD.
#5. Release info. on the cell phone.
#6. Interview RG's only 2 best friends, Walker & Sloane.
#7. Re-interview/interrogate PF.
#8. Release info. from the courthouse camera(s) for 04/14/05.
#9. Release info. from the courthouse camera(s) for 04/15/05.
#10. For heaven's sake, please check DMV records to see what vehicles might have been titled/registered in RG's name or any other name he might have used around the time of his disappearance, for who knows how long prior to his disappearance, for the time since his disappearance.
#11. Interview the owner(s) of the Tyrone antique shop.
#12. Interview neighbors of RG.
#13. Interview all co-workers in DA's office & all courthouse employees.
#14. Do a complete search of RG's residence. (A little late now, but there is luminol.)
#15. Find out where & every person working in DA's office was on 04/14/05 & 04/15/05; get alibies also.
#16. Get out into the community & the county & let the citizens know you are actively investigating the disappearance of Ray F. Gricar.

What could it hurt to release everything? Three (3) years have passed & very little has been released; however, Ray Gricar is still missing.

(This is my list; I'm sure other posters have other suggestions.)

jmo [/*]

A good list, but what if LE is not on the forum reading? Why not send it by mail or find DR's email address?

sherrijean981

03-14-2008, 12:19 PM

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

A good list, but what if LE is not on the forum reading? Why not send it by mail or find DR's email address? [/*]

If you have his e-mail address, please send it.

sherrijean981

03-14-2008, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

If you have his e-mail address, please send it. [/*]

I don't have it.

gstickley

03-14-2008, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

A good list, but what if LE is not on the forum reading? Why not send it by mail or find DR's email address? [/*]

Because any police department who doesn't already know how to conduct a complete investigation, or hasn't already done any of the suggestions on the list in 3.0 years, probably won't be doing them in the future either. And no amount of postings on an obscure message board, and no amount of letters of suggestions to LE are going to change things. Three (3) years of suggestions have gotten what??????? Three years today, to be exact, since Ray Gricar disappeared!!!! "No stone's been left unturned"!

sherrijean981

03-14-2008, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Because any police department who doesn't already know how to conduct a complete investigation, or hasn't already done any of the suggestions on the list in 3.0 years, probably won't be doing them in the future either. And no amount of postings on an obscure message board, and no amount of letters of suggestions to LE are going to change things. Three (3) years of suggestions have gotten what??????? Three years today, to be exact, since Ray Gricar disappeared!!!! "No stone's been left unturned"! [/*]

RG disappeared on April 15, 2005

gstickley

03-14-2008, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

RG disappeared on April 15, 2005 [/*]

My mistake. Today is one month prior to the date RG disappeared, 04/14/05, 3 long years ago. (In other words, it's been 35 months today since Ray Gricar disappeared.)

day2day

03-14-2008, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Okay!! It is going too far now, insulting the physically handicapped!

I certainly hope you all stop the BS before this board gets shut down and no one will get their point across!

I want answers to what happened to RG, I don't care about hurt feelings, who can talk to LE, who's idea goes to PF, walk-away, murder, suicide. Ray Gricar is the only one who is important on this forum and it is time to wake up and get a grip!!! [/*]

My comment didn't have a thing to do about his handicap sj. I would hope you know me better than that. But i apologize if anyone took it that way.
And i agree..Ray Gricar is THE only reason i am here...could give a rip about the rest.

sherrijean981

03-14-2008, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by day2day

My comment didn't have a thing to do about his handicap sj. I would hope you know me better than that. But i apologize if anyone took it that way.
And i agree..Ray Gricar is THE only reason i am here...could give a rip about the rest. [/*]

I am sorry if I took it wrong, Day. I haven't been able to read all the posts because I have my 4 year old ggrandson with me and it isn't part of his agenda. :)

I will go back and read it all but it does sound like a war zone and I think I have missed something, PB's blog, a pm, why TG is upset, and maybe a whole lot more.

Again, sorry I took what was printed in a wrong way.

I just want to help find RG.

day2day

03-14-2008, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I am sorry if I took it wrong, Day. I haven't been able to read all the posts because I have my 4 year old ggrandson with me and it isn't part of his agenda. :)

I will go back and read it all but it does sound like a war zone and I think I have missed something, PB's blog, a pm, why TG is upset, and maybe a whole lot more.

Again, sorry I took what was printed in a wrong way.

I just want to help find RG. [/*]

No problem SJ...i could have worded that MUCH better ..so it isn't your fault..
It has just gotten pretty bad here..:(
I think pb's blog is still there -just not the link to ctv.
Take good care of that special little guy ...and make lots of great memories..

And I agree- I am just here to help ...I care about LG and TG and I believe they deserve answers...maybe we will have the answers soon...

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 07:25 PM

No offense to TG or LG, but I hope our main concern is what happened to RFG. If thiis was murder, the murderer needs to be caught. If it wasn't, then RFG did what he wanted to do and we are going have have to accept that.

Serendipitous1

03-14-2008, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snips>
I was saddened that the link was removed and greatly annoyed about what caused it to be removed.
---------------
The attachment was basically, **Here is a good place for discussions of the Gricar.** So far as I know, he's not a poster. It did give me a stunning view of how the public views the site and possibly the case. In regard to the rather lame excuse for PB removing his blog entry...is there anything posted here which is more absurd than this 'reader comment', which was appended to it? "Submitted by Aardvaark on Fri, 2008-02-29 13:03. Unless you think he really did get abducted by aliens or fell into a black hole, there are only a few possibilities and they all involve Ray being a self-centered jerk who doesn't give a rip about his family or friends. And there are people who think it isn't getting enough coverage?" (still available in Google-cache).

The problem, as I see it, is not that PB linked this forum in his blog (BTW, your protest over it having been removed certainly appears, in light of many of your posts since that blog entry, to have more to do with 'J.J.'s 15 minutes of fame')...but that he was, in effect, participating in this discussion.

PB posted (CDT, Q&A) that, "as a reporter, you can never really have an opinion. Opinions cloud judgment." Frankly, I thought he had learned that lesson a while ago. So what I found most distressing about last night's foray was to learn that, apparently he has not.

I have not seen such a blatant attempt to suppress opinions here since the 'moonlit mackerel' days of PE. But, since you are so willing to do PB's bidding here, perhaps you could enlighten us all regarding his 'take' on how the public views this forum...and the case.

J. J. in Phila

03-14-2008, 11:20 PM

I can assure you I've had a lifetime of fame in that media market. :)

I am, however, concerned about publicity for the case and that those posters who go into the wilder theories are not even furthering their own goals, just turning the locals off the case. I don't like that part.

We have had several posters complain about the "lack" of local coverage. Are we, collectively, contributing to that "lack?"

In this case, the answer appears to be yes. We have seen this with the "Murtha did it" storyline on another site, which certainly helped kill local discussion of the case and the JKA Google pages and their "Conspiracy Theory" response of the press.

We have several posters here that insist on the involvement of one person, even though the evidence does not support it. We have another with a 12 member conspiracy, including several members of rival local press and rival local attorneys (that's just on this thread). They are free to express their opinions, but those opinions may not be taken too seriously, even if offered seriously.

When it comes to local coverage, we may be part of the problem, not part of the solution. That for me is the most troubling.

Serendipitous1

03-15-2008, 12:15 AM

Nonsense, J.J. I think you (and perhaps PB) overestimate this forum's reach...and potential. That is what contributed to JKA's downfall...and threatens PB's credibility. PB needs to disassociate himself from this forum. And that includes disassociating from all posters here. JMOO

Serendipitous1

03-15-2008, 12:58 AM

How should 'the public' view us...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6*2WE
or perhaps...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOkigFvxLrk

J. J. in Phila

03-15-2008, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Nonsense, J.J. I think you (and perhaps PB) overestimate this forum's reach...and potential.

I don't underestimate the potential. I'm quite convinced that this board could serve as a place to form questions. I actually don't have the answer to the ones that I want answered.

That is what contributed to JKA's downfall...and threatens PB's credibility. PB needs to disassociate himself from this forum. And that includes disassociating from all posters here. JMOO [/*]

I think the "downfall," I'd argue she fell well before her pages, was trying to weave this board into some massive conspiracy, not reading it, not possibly being involved in it anonymously (I can understand anyone running for public office, and then entering into litigation not wanting to appear publicly).

I post hoping that my questions might be answered (I think the most hypothetical questions I've asked were in the last month, at two).

Serendipitous1

03-15-2008, 01:38 AM

Then it IS the questions...as I have always thought/said...and not some unrealistic expectation that there necessarily would ever be answers...here...to some of them. So why try to quash questions, regardless of some perception that they are irrelevant?

J. J. in Phila

03-15-2008, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Then it IS the questions...as I have always thought/said...and not some unrealistic expectation that there necessarily would ever be answers...here...to some of them. So why try to quash questions, regardless of some perception that they are irrelevant? [/*]

Because I think here we've seen not questions, but supposition.

Except for my two (conflicting) scenarios, I've tried to limit my questions to actual questions that can be answered.

I could easily say, "Suppose RFG bought a car," but instead have asked, "Is there any evidence that RFG bought a car."

A question that I think is very valid is, "Is there a 2.5 or more hour gap in PEF's time line between the time she left worked on 4/15/05 and the time she called the BPD?" Instead, we've various forms of "PEF did it."

gstickley

03-15-2008, 04:01 PM

Oh, Logicworks. Thank you; it is beautiful.

day2day

03-15-2008, 05:56 PM

LW..
Your post really leaves me speechless. And you know by now-that doesn't happen often. It really says to much....

:rose:

Laws

03-15-2008, 07:11 PM

Saw Mr. Gricar's MISSING PHOTO on television this week at the end of a program that concentrates on stories of the missing.

Of course it made me sad, it makes me sad because any possibility of positive actions such as a referrendum have been discounted as wouldn't be binding by the self appointed savior of the Ray Gricar message board at InSessions. WELL, it would be evidence that the county citizens of CENTRE COUNTY give a damn, expect performance from their public servants & CARE ABOUT THE SAFETY of their devoted public servants. AGAIN, there IS/WAS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY MOTIVE to Mr. Gricar to "disappear" NONE. Mr. Gricar worked long & hard professionally & personally to protect the vulnerable from the criminal.

Dismissing opinions of others, giving no recognition that plain evil &/or personality disorder may be behind the curtain of knowledge. Distraction & encouraging ignorance that way out defines "reasonable doubt" that so very often we see in real life as mistrials because jury members are bluffed by bullies to accept a miniscule possibility to be a reasonable doubt.

Jealousy & selfishness sadly has been & will continue to be a motivating factor in many crimes in our country. It would be interesting to find out how many social security numbers have had activity on them following a disappearance. Perhaps we would then be closer to obtaining real statistics regarding the status of the adult missing because in my minds eye the majority of the adult missing population, who disappear with NO MOTIVATION present are victims of foul play that are further victimized by a half a**ed, half hearted investigation.

People are entitled to voice their OPINIONS. If it can't be done without name calling & condescention than I ask you to just think about the message that is delivering to us all & have pity on those who have such difficulty understanding that control is what we have over ourselves, NOT OTHERS.

J. J. in Phila

03-15-2008, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

This is a posting board of opinions, not the police department with files of the documented evidence you are seeking.

If your real intent is to expect NO speculation, NO supposition, opinions, a posting board seems like an unlikely place for posing questions you want facts about, considering we, as board posters, can NOT possibly know your answers.

That is, unfortunately, the only place where questions can be asked, realistically. I don't expect posters to know the answer (I don't), but I've seen even your recent comments, saying that LE shouldn't look.

I'm also interested in the possibility that someone might mention something in passing that will trigger something. It's happened a few times. I mentioned Wiley as an example, one of two. That triggered something to JKA, where she thought she might have heard it in the office. That triggered a question that produced an answer. Of any significance, long run, I don't know.

We had the fingerprint. Do you think that the question would have been answered without questions from people posting here? No. Of any significance, long run, I don't know.

We, as posters on a public forum, are not privy to the documented evidence of timelines that you are seeking, as you well know.

By asking the question, we might produce some answers.

This IS an opinion board only....You may not like any or all of the opinions, but in no way do your rights supercede the poster's right to express an opinion, nor should posters be unduly portrayed as fools for expressing them.

On this I disagree. This is a place to ask questions.

On the second point, don't confuse the "right" to express opinions with the "effect" of expressing them. When you express them, they can have a negative effect.

More than a few people out there have (I assume tongue-in-cheek) that have suggested alien abduction and (possibly not tongue-in-cheek) that it was a CIA plot. Those kind of things, because they lack any evidence and any credibility, don't attract the interest in the case, any more than claiming that little green men killed Betsy Aardsma.

You've complained about 11 people all being somehow connected to PEF, a prosecutor and defense attorney, reporters from three rival new organization, an author that hasn't been in contact with RFG since at least 1990, a retired PSP Trooper, and a poster that has never met RFG or PEF (though he twice met her uncle, who died in, what, 2002?). Evidence, your opinion, which you are free to express. Do you expect a resident of Centre County, to which a number of people here appeal, to read on after that? Do you really thing that those residents are wake up Monday morning and say, "All those witnesses were wrong, RFG was dead the night before?"

You've also complained that the media has "pushed" for the walkaway theory. I would call it reporting, not pushing. The evidence that has surfaced points in that direction (I can't do anything about that).

Now, all that evidence has pointed only to one aspect of walkaway, motivation. That is really the least important aspect of this case. Even if we conclude that RFG had an interest in voluntarily walking away from his life, that falls far short of saying he did walkaway. Wouldn't it far better, and far more convincing, to say, "What evidence would exist if RFG did walkaway," and raise question about that evidence? Hunt: If that evidence isn't there then maybe he [did not[/i] walkaway.

Cinderella

03-15-2008, 09:31 PM

Does anyone know where UTR went? I would love to see her come back. Then again, maybe I want to go where she went. :seeya:

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snips>
I mentioned Wiley as an example, one of two. That triggered something to JKA, where she thought she might have heard it in the office. That triggered a question that produced an answer. Of any significance, long run, I don't know.

You've also complained that the media has "pushed" for the walkaway theory. I would call it reporting, not pushing. The evidence that has surfaced points in that direction (I can't do anything about that).

Now, all that evidence has pointed only to one aspect of walkaway, motivation. That is really the least important aspect of this case. Even if we conclude that RFG had an interest in voluntarily walking away from his life, that falls far short of saying he did walkaway. Wouldn't it far better, and far more convincing, to say, "What evidence would exist if RFG did walkaway," and raise question about that evidence? Hunt: If that evidence isn't there then maybe he did not walkaway. While you are free to pursue means in the walk-away scenario, you are far from establishing motivation. The reasons why the walk-away-suggestive stuff got press coverage are 1) because it is...coverage, 2) because there is no evidence of suicide to report, and 3) because it is not prejudicial to a criminal case in the event foul play occurred.

On the other hand, the fingerprint revelation was a correction of an earlier mistakement. That, in and by itself, is a much more significant departure from nearly 3 years of official obfuscation, because it validated the myriad cacophony of public suspicion (and apparently also caught TG by surprise). How much further MR and SW are willing to go down *that* path remains to be seen. But I, for one, am even less comfortable (if that is even possible) with MM's and the BPD's continued roles in 'leading' this investigation. All JMOO

J. J. in Phila

03-16-2008, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
While you are free to pursue means in the walk-away scenario, you are far from establishing motivation. The reasons why the walk-away-suggestive stuff got press coverage are 1) because it is...coverage, 2) because there is no evidence of suicide to report, and 3) because it is not prejudicial to a criminal case in the event foul play occurred.

I didn't say established; I did say "pointed to." I've never known the press to be worried about being prejudicial, either. :)

I'd also add locally, at least initially, walkaway was downplayed. I read the description of the witnesses in Wilkes-Barre, and it was a bit stronger than I thought. The witnesses were independent from each other. One was found by LE. The witnesses viewed video to more strongly confirm it. It seems to have been dismissed partly because PEF said there wasn't a suit missing.

There is a lot of witness reports that point to a voluntary action, the Spotts comment, the interview regarding the Fall election, RFG's seeming change in attitude in the week(s) prior to the disappearance. (This is all without Fenton, BTW).

Granted, something voluntary could point to suicide, but where is the body and why was laptop destroyed or even present?

In looking for means, if RFG [u]did not[/i] buy or borrow a car, and was not picked up by a friend, he probably did not walk away.

gstickley

03-16-2008, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

On the other hand, the fingerprint revelation was a correction of an earlier mistakement. That, in and by itself, is a much more significant departure from nearly 3 years of official obfuscation, because it validated the myriad cacophony of public suspicion (and apparently also caught TG by surprise). How much further MR and SW are willing to go down *that* path remains to be seen. But I, for one, am even less comfortable (if that is even possible) with MM's and the BPD's continued roles in 'leading' this investigation. All JMOO [/*]

What possible excuse could be made to leave TG 'out of the loop, as apparently was done by LE.

Near the 1-yr. anniversary, suddenly the MW was made known, apparently an 'odd little bombshell' to TG. At that time, Ms. Fenton's sighting was made known, apparently a surprise to the family. At that time, the car reportedly seen, either on the interstate or the SOS, depending on who is talking, was made known; also a surprise to the family.

Near the 3-yr. anniverary, apparent 'mistakements' about the fingerprints on the Mini were made known; also a surprise to TG.

Obviously, all the 'forthcoming' information was apparently known by the BPD for some time. Why was it kept 'close to the vest'? (What a disgusting phrase.) Especially, why was it apparently kept from TG, the family spokesman?? It's hard to believe that one patrol officer-turned detective alone had this information; where was his supervisor or the Chief? Where was the lead law enforcement officer in the county?

Why was a 'now famous' photo kept from the public, only known by 'certain' people? Don't know if TG knew about it or not, but how did 'certain' people come to know about it? According to everything previously known, there was only a description of a MW available, a description not good enough for a composite to be made. Did this photo come from LE, or did it come from elsewhere?

Exactly what is, and has been, going on in Bellefonte/Centre Co.?
Three years, 1 month, ago, helicopters were circling certain areas, looking for a Mini Cooper. What is being done now?????

gstickley

03-16-2008, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by logicworks
Question.........does anyone recall any mention of LE checking to see if any pieces of luggage were missing?

Some people have one or two suitcases, but many have 'sets' of luggage, 4-6 pieces that tuck one inside of the other, and unless you open them all up to count the pieces, one piece standing alone could still appear to be a set. Curious if anyone remembers reading anything about luggage having been checked by LE to see if any pieces were missing.
JMO [/*]

How would you know, LW? The only thing I ever remember seeing pertained to the laptop & whatever clothes RG might have been wearing.

puzzled

03-16-2008, 02:16 PM

I would like to view this now famous photo. I am assuming it is of the mystery woman. How do I go about viewing it?

Because of the fact that MM is keeping the case down I have alway's wondered if he in fact knows the truth and perhaps was somehow involved.

:D

gstickley

03-16-2008, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

(snip)
BTW: I've seen a photo of the woman LE thought was Lewisburg and she has the same hair and eye color of PEF; I can't tell too well from the photo, but she appears to the same height or shorter than PEF and they have similar chins.

Return to Fantasyland. [/*]

Don't know about anyone else, but this was the 1st I ever heard of a "photo". Strange that mention of a photo would appear 35 months after RG disappeared; stranger still that it would appear on a message board. :shrug:

BTW, the above quote appeared on 03/11/08 on this thread.

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 02:40 PM

MOO - I believe J.J. posted that he was given a name (not hard to guess who gave it to him), which he then searched online...and came up with a photo. He cannot give the name or the photo link, without revealing the woman's identity. That is a good policy...one which his source should also take to heart.

gstickley

03-16-2008, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Give me her name, and I'll Google it. [/*]

Which version are you gonna believe? The name was known & Googled or needs the name to Google it?????

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
Which version are you gonna believe? The name was known & Googled or needs the name to Google it????? The former, plus....."oneupsmanship on who knows what, and how, can be a difficult proposition for all, especially as it relates to sources and their inevitable impact on the rumor mill" (tonyGricar, 3/14/08).

What no one has said though, is what impact the discussion on this forum has had, locally (in Centre County)...other than being fodder for convivial tailgate parties. MOO

Politigal

03-16-2008, 03:43 PM

Just to clarify for JJ....

Tony has already posted that Sloane's opinion of what might have happened to RG has changed since the beginning of the investigation......

edited to add --

you'll have to email Tony to get particulars

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
Just to clarify for JJ.... Tony has already posted that Sloane's opinion of what might have happened to RG has changed since the beginning of the investigation...... edited to add -- you'll have to email Tony to get particulars Whose opinion has not?

BTW, I saw your website got linked on WS...congrats.

Politigal

03-16-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Whose opinion has not?

BTW, I saw your website got linked on WS...congrats. [/*]

thx

Btw -- your signature

how can that be when you've posted that police came *to* you in this case and were "cordial"....

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
thx
Btw -- your signature
how can that be when you've posted that police came *to* you in this case and were "cordial".... Because it was concerning a tangential matter...unrelated to the official investigation into RG's disappearance ('fruit of the poisonous tree' stuff)...and of no more significance than me, standing on the creek/river bank, observing the divers and ground searchers that first week.

Politigal

03-16-2008, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Because it was concerning a tangential matter...unrelated to the official investigation into RG's disappearance ('fruit of the poisonous tree' stuff)...and of no more significance than me, standing on the creek/river bank, observing the divers and ground searchers that first week. [/*]

ok ty

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 06:52 PM

2008 Newspaper Excellence in Cyberspace Winners:
The award for the Best News Coverage of an Event or Issue (for newspapers with a circulation of 25,001-75,000) goes to...........Centre Daily Times.

And the John Fisher Internet Vision Recognition, Special Award (among all newspapers) goes to.........Bob Heisse, Centre Daily Times.

http://www.pa-newspaper.org/web/2005/09/newspaper_excellence_in_cyberspace.aspx

Congratulations to Bob Heisse and the CDT. After getting shut out the last couple of years, you have finally made the grade...in the newspaper circle, at least. Now, if only everyone could at least view the online pages without having to give the CDT personal information (registering), the public might actually believe you deserve these 'cyber' awards. JMO-stupid-O.

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 07:35 PM

I have heard (privately) a number of complaints...enough to prompt me to question whether the CDT is targeting IP addresses. Have you ever been asked to register your personal information, in order to be able to view the CDT online? And did you register your personal information? Do not answer here...send me a PM...please. TIA.

J. J. in Phila

03-16-2008, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
Just to clarify for JJ....

Tony has already posted that Sloane's opinion of what might have happened to RG has changed since the beginning of the investigation......

edited to add --

you'll have to email Tony to get particulars [/*]

P'gal, when I started posting, I had murder/walkaway/suicide all equal. I also had a possible scenario where PEF could have been the murderer. It didn't pan out.

Politigal

03-16-2008, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

P'gal, when I started posting, I had murder/walkaway/suicide all equal. I also had a possible scenario where PEF could have been the murderer. It didn't pan out. [/*]

My point is...that I don't believe that Sloane thinks RG walked away.

I think foul play is #1 now.

J. J. in Phila

03-16-2008, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

My point is...that I don't believe that Sloane thinks RG walked away.

I think foul play is #1 now. [/*]

The only things I've seen is that one of the "better friends" does, and TG stating that Sloane doesn't think it was suicide.

Politigal

03-16-2008, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

The only things I've seen is that one of the "better friends" does, and TG stating that Sloane doesn't think it was suicide. [/*]

do you have a link to the better friend comment ?

J. J. in Phila

03-16-2008, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

do you have a link to the better friend comment ? [/*]

It's in PB's blog, 11/28/06.

Politigal

03-16-2008, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It's in PB's blog, 11/28/06. [/*]

Here's exactly what Pete posted

ABelieve it or not, yes. At least one of his better friends has told me he would not be shocked if Ray walked away intentionally. Those who knew him best tell me Ray was way too intelligent to have been entrapped by a killer. And others say suicide makes no sense, with him being only months away from a retirement he had, by all accounts, cherished. Who knows?
Pete Bosak 11/28/06

So, the friend did *not* say that's what they believed happened -- only that they wouldn't be shocked if that's what happened....

and this was way back in 2006.

It is now 2008, and Tony more recently posted that opinions of RG's friends have changed.

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
do you have a link to the better friend comment ? And how about McKnight and Buehner? Come to think of it...where are they now?

J. J. in Phila

03-16-2008, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

Here's exactly what Pete posted

ABelieve it or not, yes. At least one of his better friends has told me he would not be shocked if Ray walked away intentionally. Those who knew him best tell me Ray was way too intelligent to have been entrapped by a killer. And others say suicide makes no sense, with him being only months away from a retirement he had, by all accounts, cherished. Who knows?
Pete Bosak 11/28/06

So, the friend did *not* say that's what they believed happened -- only that they wouldn't be shocked if that's what happened....

and this was way back in 2006.

It is now 2008, and Tony more recently posted that opinions of RG's friends have changed. [/*]

The term "not shocked" indicates the possibility. Now, like most of the other things that point to walkaway, it deals with possible motivation. Are there things out that that that RFG could have had a motivation to leave on his own? Yes. Does that mean that RFG really did walk away? I'd need a lot more evidence.

I do believe that if RFG did walkaway, then there would likely be evidence. If that evidence isn't there, it becomes improbable that RFG walked away. If LE were to look at that evidence, and it isn't there, it becomes very unlikely that RFG walked away.

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 10:00 PM

If MM has half a brain, and wants to be re-elected, he needs to formally...and publicly...request the AG's office to take over the investigation. Otherwise he is just a flash in the pan...'one term Mike'.

Put it on Corbett, MM...who, in turn, has aspirations of being Governor. Force Tom Corbett's hand, MM. Do it today! Or you too might some day be asking.....paper or plastic? All just MOO

gstickley

03-16-2008, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
If MM has half a brain, and wants to be re-elected, he needs to formally...and publicly...request the AG's office to take over the investigation. Otherwise he is just a flash in the pan...'one term Mike'.

Put it on Corbett, MM...who, in turn, has aspirations of being Governor. Force Tom Corbett's hand, MM. Do it today! Or you too might some day be asking.....paper or plastic? All just MOO [/*]

Since I've apparently been banned from the CDT, can you tell me when & if MM is going to run for re-election? (Need enough time to establish PA residency so I can vote!) ;)

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
Since I've apparently been banned from the CDT, can you tell me when & if MM is going to run for re-election? (Need enough time to establish PA residency so I can vote!) ;) Next Spring. I am sure Happy Valley will welcome you, even if the CDT does not! MOO

gstickley

03-16-2008, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Next Spring. I am sure Happy Valley will welcome you, even if the CDT does not! MOO [/*]

Ya reckon LE'd hire me???????????:biggrin:

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
Ya reckon LE'd hire me???????????:biggrin: Given the turnover rate and the apparent tolerance for shenanigans, I could see you fitting in, lol. Come on up to our 'progressive' state. We could really use your tax dollars too! MOO

day2day

03-16-2008, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Ya reckon LE'd hire me???????????:biggrin: [/*]

There ya go gs! I am pretty darn sure you would stir things up in CC!! (if not you could always start a newspaper?) I'm just sayin...:D

J. J. in Phila

03-16-2008, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
If MM has half a brain, and wants to be re-elected, he needs to formally...and publicly...request the AG's office to take over the investigation. Otherwise he is just a flash in the pan...'one term Mike'.

Put it on Corbett, MM...who, in turn, has aspirations of being Governor. Force Tom Corbett's hand, MM. Do it today! Or you too might some day be asking.....paper or plastic? All just MOO [/*]

1. Either can call a grand jury.

2. I really do not believe this well be a political issue. The public is unwilling to push on this. (I'm not happy about that.)

Serendipitous1

03-16-2008, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
1. Either can call a grand jury.
2. I really do not believe this well be a political issue. The public is unwilling to push on this. (I'm not happy about that.) As I understand it, 1) one has to be able to proffer evidence of a criminal act in order to convene a grand jury...and 2) this is a political time-bomb for both MM and TC...tick...tick...tick...boom!!

J. J. in Phila

03-17-2008, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
As I understand it, 1) one has to be able to proffer evidence of a criminal act in order to convene a grand jury...and 2) this is a political time-bomb for both MM and TC...tick...tick...tick...boom!! [/*]

I do not believe that the evidence of a criminal act has to be "proof" that one was committed; it is a potential criminal act. I've heard reports that there has been one seated in regard to the couple in Phila that vanished three years ago.

I doubt if this is a time bomb, political or otherwise, for either. If there was a really good chance of murder, it might be different.

As for LW's task force, there really isn't anyone that the DA's office didn't deal with, at some level. The PSP, BPD, AG's office, all had connections with the Centre County DA's office in that they all dealt with cases handled by the office at some point. None of them were answerable to DA's office, however.

Serendipitous1

03-17-2008, 12:40 AM

A task force...a multi-jurisdictional group representing the very best this state has to offer, whose sole purpose in life would be to ferret out what happened to RG -- a career representative of justice in this Commonwealth...is precisely what Buehner called for in 2005. No one listened. What a pity. What a shame. Too bad for RG and his loved ones.

How is next season's team looking? Think grandpa Joe will get another contract? Re-elect Corbett so he can quit and run for Governor. Ray who?...I thought Mike was DA. Re-elect Madeira. Gricar? Never heard of him. All JMO-stupid-O

Serendipitous1

03-17-2008, 12:52 AM

In the history of mankind, no prosecutor (or defense attorney) has ever 'proved' anything. All they can do is present evidence. If there is no evidence of potential criminal conduct, there is no basis for convening a grand jury. This is my 'Carnac' understanding of 'the law'...subject, of course, to correction by the Amazing Criswell.

sherrijean981

03-17-2008, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

Since I've apparently been banned from the CDT, [/*]

Are you kidding??!! Because you voiced your opinion of a reporter?

J. J. in Phila

03-17-2008, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Dealing with another office and working in an office, immediately prior to new DA position, are two completely different situations.
The people he worked with would then be in charge of investigating his local office? Conflict of interest!!!!!! [/*]

LW, the DA's office has no even nominal control over the local police. The can get a warrant, from a judge and make the local police serve it. They work with the police, but can't actually give them orders. Technically, it doesn't get to get to that level (it doesn't mean it's not a good ide.

Ironically, if the Mayor of Bellefonte, or the BPD Chief, vanished, there might be a better argument for a conflict of interest.

J. J. in Phila

03-17-2008, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
In the history of mankind, no prosecutor (or defense attorney) has ever 'proved' anything. All they can do is present evidence. If there is no evidence of potential criminal conduct, there is no basis for convening a grand jury. This is my 'Carnac' understanding of 'the law'...subject, of course, to correction by the Amazing Criswell. [/*]

Supposedly, a grand jury has looked into the Danielle Imbo/Richard Petrone disappearance, or at least "aspects" of it:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/imbo_petrone/7.html

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=3648747

It's federal, but I think there might be a "state line" issue. My understanding is that there only has to be a "potential" crime to be investigated.

Cloudbuster

03-17-2008, 02:29 AM

Originally posted by puzzled
I would like to view this now famous photo. I am assuming it is of the mystery woman. How do I go about viewing it?

Because of the fact that MM is keeping the case down I have alway's wondered if he in fact knows the truth and perhaps was somehow involved.

:D [/*]
I always wondered if T$C pushed M$M as a front guy to be in the new position for keeping the case down. See LE still has to run things thru m$m and M$M says no its no. When RG was DA thats how things was done. Weirder they brought S$W as new chief so go figure. Now that seems why the case is with every stone opened with nothing to bull doze it over. Hmm Keisling refered to TC as "good times roll" while he mentioned Fast Eddie too roflmao.http://www.yardbird.com/reform_pa_Rendell_Ballard_Spahr.htm
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/

puzzled

03-17-2008, 01:24 PM

This post is to the persons responsible for the set up, kidnapping and killing of Ray Frank Gricar on April 15, 2005. You took from Centre County a man of great integrity. A man who spent his career defending and helping your sisters, your daughters, your mothers. A man who gave of his own time and money to help those who had been abused at the hands of cowards. Ray made Centre County safer for everyone and he did it with zeal! Shame on all of you who are involved in the ending of his life! Ray was a father, an uncle, and a lover. He was a good man who fought to protect the people of Centre County. Just so you know some day you will all be caught! I personally hope that when you stand before God that he will have NO mercy on your sorry souls! You are losers, and outcasts, evil people with your own sad agendas. You know the old saying you reap what you sow....and so shall each of you! You are sick mentally to even think that you should participate in such an evil and heinous act! May you each rot in hell for your participation! You are cowards who deserve only the worse that life has to offer. You may think that you have gotten away with the perfect murder however you have not. Everything shall come out and you shall sink to the pits of hell. Enjoy your remaining and limited time of freedom for your days are numbered. God knows what you have done. :D

Politigal

03-17-2008, 08:06 PM

I search the news each day for any update whatsoever on RG and today saw this property transaction for Emma Gricar

http://tinyurl.com/283xek

845 Spruce St Ddtj Irrevoc Tr to Emma J Gricar, $107,500.

gstickley

03-17-2008, 08:36 PM

Guess what! I think I've been un-banned by the CDT, if that was what occurred. I can suddenly access everything---with no re-registration, or at least no acknowledgement that I tried to re-register. Amazin' . . . maybe it was just 'gremlins' at work. :seeya:

sherrijean981

03-18-2008, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
I search the news each day for any update whatsoever on RG and today saw this property transaction for Emma Gricar

http://tinyurl.com/283xek

845 Spruce St Ddtj Irrevoc Tr to Emma J Gricar, $107,500. [/*]

What does "Ddtj" mean? I know the rest is Irrevocable Trust but not the first part.

Chump#7

03-18-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

The transfer took place in November according to your link.
The name currently listed as living at that address is interesting. [/*]

It looks like a townhouse. Maybe purchased as a rental unit?

sherrijean981

03-18-2008, 02:04 PM

Not sure what the Ddtp means but found a couple links to the Irrivocable trusts.

http://www.taxdeferrals.com/trust.htm

Quote:
"The "Grantor"

He’s the guy with the buck$. The owner of the asset(s).

The grantor’s motivation is to get asset(s) out of his name for either some or all of the following:

* Asset protection / wealth preservation

* "REDUCE POTENTIAL FRIVOLOUS LAWSUITS"

* Elimination of the "probate process" (see definition, below)

* Elimination of estate taxes

* To gain some tax benefit or some other tax deferral benefit"
Quote

http://www.taxprophet.com/pubs/trust_nl.html

J. J. in Phila

03-18-2008, 07:08 PM

It looks like it is the seller. My guess is that "Ddtj Irrevoc Tr" was the prior owner. Some of the others list banks as the owner.

Serendipitous1

03-19-2008, 05:18 PM

I feel certain EJG is not at all happy with the notoriety here...for which, in part, I share the blame. She comes from a large family, with many ties remaining in Centre County. I was particularly touched by the rose-a-month story (sorry to be cryptic here). I think I shall bring roses on my next visit to CC. JMHO

Cinderella

03-19-2008, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I feel certain EJG is not at all happy with the notoriety here...for which, in part, I share the blame. She comes from a large family, with many ties remaining in Centre County. I was particularly touched by the rose-a-month story (sorry to be cryptic here). I think I shall bring roses on my next visit to CC. JMHO [/*]

You and J. J. throw just enough of a crumb to make us wonder, then that is it. I like people that say what they mean.

Inquiring minds want to know. hammer

Cinderella

03-19-2008, 06:46 PM

I think that I now know what you are talking about. I thought that it was once a year though.

Serendipitous1

03-19-2008, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
You and J. J. throw just enough of a crumb to make us wonder, then that is it. I like people that say what they mean. Inquiring minds want to know. "Pete, You are my number one fan" (Cind., 2/22/08, CDT Q&A).....says it all, not?

I said what I meant...and apologized in advance for the cryptic reference. It was not a 'crumb', in the sense of having any connection to this case, necessarily. And it is not at all like a J.J. 'crumb'...you will not see it in the 'west' (or likely in the CDT again) anytime soon. It was just one of the sadder stories I had come upon while searching connections to RG. MOO

Cinderella

03-19-2008, 11:35 PM

I remember when the event happened. The guy left the Bowling Alley and right at that wrong time, remembered that he left his wallet there. He must have decided at the spur of the moment to turn. It was a sad story. I wonder if the ambulance got there sooner if things might have been different. Very, very sad.

I do like Pete and appreciate the work that he does. BTW, he doesn't drop me secrets. I like him even though he keeps things to himself with me. Are you jealous???? He might have said one thing to me, but it wasn't really important.

BTW, Not what?

Serendipitous1

03-20-2008, 12:06 AM

'Cind., You are my number one fan!' . . . :rolleyes:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :eek:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :D

Cinderella

03-20-2008, 01:03 AM

Then Why Are You Rolling Your Eyes? Are You Being Cryptic???

OK, I just got it. I can be your number one fan too. DUH

sherrijean981

03-20-2008, 05:09 PM

I have been wondering about the situation here. So many people are interested in what happened to Ray Gricar, so many people have put their time, energy, money, themselves into his disappearance and looking for answers, wanting him back, praying so hard, looking so hard, but now so frustrated they are giving up, sitting back, as if waiting for something unknown to happen.

As I was reading old newspapers, I came across this "Opinion" in the Daily Collegian from 1988. The person who is helping "Nora" with her problem could very well be talking to everyone on here.
What an inspirational story, as if I am the Nora, and I need the help and inspiration. I thought maybe others might like to read it, to get back your energy and spirit of finding Ray Gricar.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1988/01/01-19-88tdc/01-19-88dops-column-01.asp

:read:

Cinderella

03-20-2008, 05:36 PM

You ask the question, where has everyone gone. I will tell you about me. I have gotten tired of all the arguing over what people have to say. You can't say a word about PF without being made fun of or people laughing at your expense. I am specificially talking about TG and S1. I was made out to be a nut that her she goes off on a tangent again.

I get sick of everything that I post being ripped apart. I respect and like J. J., but it seems like he stalks everything that a person posts and pulls it apart to reflect his own opinions.

I just decided that the board had become so stressful that I didn't need it. I think that UTR maybe left because of that reason.

Posters are shown where they are wrong or if they say the wrong words. This is like English class.

I don't care for TG's personality. I think that he is very rude to posters at times and it is not needed. If he wants to find the truth about Ray, he should be glad that we are here. I think if you have something to say to a poster, it should be with a pm., not on the board.

I feel that the board has been ruined and taken over by certain people that want you to view things their way. That is my own opinion. We seem to be only able to discuss certain things and even day2day was told that she was ruining the board. day2day has a right to her opinons the same as everyone else. I like all posts, but I don't want all of my posts torn apart. I don't tear each person's posts apart.

I feel that this board is ruined and if things aren't changed, it will not be around. I wonder if some people are hoping for that. I can let it go and give it up as it stands now.

BTW, I feel that the Betsy posting has drawn new posters here. Whatever draws posters the better although he might get more visitors someplace else, but I think that person might have stated that to him in a pm. intead of on the board.

Another thing is that when posters writing are compared to each other, that should be kept to the person doing it. I hope that JKA come back and if anyone breathes a word about her posting, I will go to Coldwater. :cuss:

sherrijean981

03-24-2008, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I have been wondering about the situation here. So many people are interested in what happened to Ray Gricar, so many people have put their time, energy, money, themselves into his disappearance and looking for answers, wanting him back, praying so hard, looking so hard, but now so frustrated they are giving up, sitting back, as if waiting for something unknown to happen.

As I was reading old newspapers, I came across this "Opinion" in the Daily Collegian from 1988. The person who is helping "Nora" with her problem could very well be talking to everyone on here.
What an inspirational story, as if I am the Nora, and I need the help and inspiration. I thought maybe others might like to read it, to get back your energy and spirit of finding Ray Gricar.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1988/01/01-19-88tdc/01-19-88dops-column-01.asp

:read: [/*]

Cloudbuster

03-24-2008, 09:25 PM

Hi SJ Im still here. Thats funny "Im still here", that was a sign I received once when I asked RG if he was still here. I was running the sweeper and asked that very question once and I looked down because there was a piece of paper the shape of a cloud with cotton attached to it that signified cloudbuster to me. It read "IM STILL HERE" on it and I knew well you get the idea. I still have it because I really observed it as a sign. Perhaps i might take a photo of it and show you it.:rose:

puzzled

03-24-2008, 09:33 PM

Hi Cloudbuster. Did you ever get the pm I sent to you? I was wanting to know if you still had anymore of Barebricks posts?
Thanks,
TOTG

Cloudbuster

03-24-2008, 09:58 PM

Sorry puzzled I may have accidently deleted it and thought it was a older one. I don't have anymore of barebricks posts. There was only very few things posted, PGAL put up the most important one. Cind was over my house earlier today and he went thru some of my printouts and I don't see anymore of them. :rose:

Cinderella

03-26-2008, 04:15 AM

This is another very important issue in Centre County. Since the things that have been happening, I am in all favor of a paper trail or the old paper ballots.

http://www.centredaily.com/

I hope that they announce the forum in advance.

Forum called on voting machines

BELLEFONTE — Centre County residents will have a chance to weigh in on what they think about voting machines — from old-fashioned paper ballots to paperless touch-screens — during an upcoming public forum.

Serendipitous1

03-28-2008, 08:29 PM

I see the photo that had LG and PF in it has been replaced with one showing RG in a Turner Classic Movie T-shirt. Hmm-m.

Cinderella

03-28-2008, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I see the photo that had LG and PF in it has been replaced with one showing RG in a Turner Classic Movie T-shirt. Hmm-m. [/*]

I have never seen it, do you have a link or can you tell me where to look?

Politigal

03-28-2008, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I see the photo that had LG and PF in it has been replaced with one showing RG in a Turner Classic Movie T-shirt. Hmm-m. [/*]

yep......curious....

http://raygricar.com/images/ray7.jpg

Cinderella

03-28-2008, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

yep......curious....

http://raygricar.com/images/ray7.jpg [/*]

He looks like he has a nice tan. :confused: His hair looks dyed. If only that would be what my wish would be, that he is alive.

Cinderella

03-28-2008, 09:15 PM

Can I say, Damn he looks hot! And might I add, HAPPY!

Cinderella

03-28-2008, 09:30 PM

Isn't it time for TG to come on and answer some questions? Or better yet Ray.

Politigal

03-28-2008, 10:14 PM

IMO, no, Ray is not alive....I think it was probably taken when Ray was a little bit younger, and probably tan from vacation.

But, I do think it's curious Tony removed Patty's pic and of course, he would know that it would spark our curiousity as to why he didn't just add that pic to the others, or remove one of the others.

J. J. in Phila

03-29-2008, 04:16 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
IMO, no, Ray is not alive....I think it was probably taken when Ray was a little bit younger, and probably tan from vacation.

But, I do think it's curious Tony removed Patty's pic and of course, he would know that it would spark our curiousity as to why he didn't just add that pic to the others, or remove one of the others. [/*]

It might have been a privacy issue. I'm sure neither PEF or LG would want me walking either of them on the street and start asking them questions.

Politigal

03-29-2008, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It might have been a privacy issue. I'm sure neither PEF or LG would want me walking either of them on the street and start asking them questions. [/*]

that's about the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted JJ....

"privacy" - almost *3 years after the fact* ???

day2day

03-29-2008, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

that's about the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted JJ....

"privacy" - almost *3 years after the fact* ??? [/*]

This case (and the people surrounding it) just blows my mind sometimes...I swear!!..

Thats it-privacy!! hammer

Sorry my soulmate just vanished into thin air -but i deserve my privacy!! -------absurd...

as always -jmo!

Serendipitous1

03-29-2008, 11:20 AM

I think there may be something else going on. PB pulls his message-board blog entry. TG has been away from the boards for 2 weeks, since admonishing against breached confidences here and the "inevitable impact on the rumor mill". The photo of LG and PF, which had been there since the beginning, gets replaced with RG in a TCM T-shirt (ironically TCM.com and truTV.com are parts of the Turner Entertainment New Media Network ( http://www.tcm.com/popups/turnernetworks/ ).

The website (raygricar.com) will apparently expire on May 10, three years after creation (may get renewed...may not). Guess I will stick around to see whether or not 'futility' becomes the hallmark of 'all things Gricar' after the 3-year anniversary.

J. J. in Phila

03-29-2008, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

that's about the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted JJ....

"privacy" - almost *3 years after the fact* ??? [/*]

We now have a thread about someone in the photo being asked to "come forward."

I don't know if it's related. It may not be.

J. J. in Phila

03-29-2008, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

There appears to be no reason whatsoever to not pressure for a full-fledged investigation into foul play by knowledgeable experts.

Except we still don't have any evidence of foul play and we don't have anything, as of yet, to at least lower the odds of walkaway.

The boxes of evidence continually being handed over from one local hand to the other, with the end result everyone given a library card to go study the next fiction story based on the RG disappearance, in no way suffices for a full investigation into the evidence. Exactly when we can expect the fiction to end, and the facts to emerge, has yet to become apparent.

I think we've had one transference, because the investigating officer retired. We can compare this with Aardsma case, where when one Trooper retires another gets the case.

As to the "next fiction story based on the RG disappearance," we've had one that was mentioned a while back and was just re-mentioned. It isn't related to the disappearance.

20/20 Vision wasn't based on the RFG disappearance and is potentially relevant because:

1. RFG had aided the author with research.

2. Read the book.

3. Very few people knew about #1 and #2. People who didn't know: West, TG, LG, anyone currently with LE, the press. A retired PSP Corporal did, but never made the connection, until West looked at the case and saw some "similarities." Note the quotes.

Right now, I don't think 20/20 Vision is related. If more information comes to light, I may change my opinion.

day2day

03-29-2008, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I think there may be something else going on. PB pulls his message-board blog entry. TG has been away from the boards for 2 weeks, since admonishing against breached confidences here and the "inevitable impact on the rumor mill". The photo of LG and PF, which had been there since the beginning, gets replaced with RG in a TCM T-shirt (ironically TCM.com and truTV.com are parts of the Turner Entertainment New Media Network ( http://www.tcm.com/popups/turnernetworks/ ).

The website (raygricar.com) will apparently expire on May 10, three years after creation (may get renewed...may not). Guess I will stick around to see whether or not 'futility' becomes the hallmark of 'all things Gricar' after the 3-year anniversary. [/*]

More coincidences...(tcm -tru-tv)....
Im withya S1..been here this long and I reckon I'm not goin anywhere fast...

.As for the blog link being pulled ~IMO it was all done as a way to try and control the conversations here...shame on people HERE for discussing the "what ifs" of the case...we should leave it to those in CC who are close enough to DEMAND some action ...

Although in the last three years the ONLY screaming I have heard has been from TG...and well ...who knows what the rest of those closest to Mr. Gricar are doin...
:shrug: jmo

day2day

03-29-2008, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Perhaps the most recent 'hue and cry' here asking LG to address the public is the reason. The anniversary is just a couple of weeks away, and, of course, the public would expect there would be some sort of effort made in so far as a progress report.

There appears to be no reason whatsoever to not pressure for a full-fledged investigation into foul play by knowledgeable experts.

The boxes of evidence continually being handed over from one local hand to the other, with the end result everyone given a library card to go study the next fiction story based on the RG disappearance, in no way suffices for a full investigation into the evidence. Exactly when we can expect the fiction to end, and the facts to emerge, has yet to become apparent.

If this was my family member, I would certainly want the public to be well aware, in no uncertain terms, that I in no way believed any the 'fiction'. I think TG has basically stated as much, although he did say the date caught his attention.
JMO [/*]

Said it before and will say it again..IMO posters here have been VERYYYYY kind to LG. (Compared to most cases i have followed)..

And I'm withya LW-until someone closest to the investigation DEMANDS the truth-..we are left with the same "fiction" we have been fed for the last three years. I can tell ya -they can thank their lucky stars that it wasn't MY Daddy that vanished -cause noone could shut ME up until i knew the truth...

And same goes for PF ---her voice could and SHOULD have been heard along time ago...the crocodile tears certainly don't match up to her actions involving this case! Pfft---I would scream louder if my puppy got lost ..than she has for her lost "soulmate"..

:shrug:

sherrijean981

03-29-2008, 07:04 PM

I just looked at the new photo put on raygricar.com. Is the photo an older photo, from a vacation he might have been on with one of the family or PF? His smile does not look at bright as others on the site, with his dimples showing. JMO

But yes, Cinderella he does look hot, no matter which photo you look at. :)

J. J. in Phila

03-29-2008, 08:03 PM

Day, as has been pointed out, initially both LG and PEF were available to the press initially; PEF continued after LG stopped.

LG has chosen to speak through a family spokesman; I really recognize that this is a legitimate way of handling it. Some people don't like talking to the press.

day2day

03-29-2008, 08:28 PM

I realize that early on they both spoke out. That was nearly three years ago. I don't like talking to the press either...but my God if my Daddy or my soulmate or even my pup vanished ...they would have to hide the cameras because I would NOT shuddup until I knew the truth. Period.
And I think we all realize that TG is the family spokesperson and he has done alot for his family. That bein said...I still think it is gonna take someone close to this investigation to move it forward. Unless they are satisfied with the way it has been handled ...:shrug:

Cinderella

03-29-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I just looked at the new photo put on raygricar.com. Is the photo an older photo, from a vacation he might have been on with one of the family or PF? His smile does not look at bright as others on the site, with his dimples showing. JMO

But yes, Cinderella he does look hot, no matter which photo you look at. :) [/*]

I really believed that the photo of Ray might have been recent. I know that everyone else disagrees, but I have never seen Ray with that dark hair. I always thought that he had brown hair and then it got gray. Can anyone show me a picture of Ray with that color hair. Also if someone has a tan like that, their hair usually lightens up. It looks like there are more wrinkles on his forehead his eyes are opened wider. Oh, what a movie star.

BTW, me and my daughter love to see men in white tee shirts. We have always talked about it. There is something about a man in a white tee shirt. No I will not say wife beater.

J. J. in Phila

03-30-2008, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by day2day
I realize that early on they both spoke out. That was nearly three years ago. I don't like talking to the press either...but my God if my Daddy or my soulmate or even my pup vanished ...they would have to hide the cameras because I would NOT shuddup until I knew the truth. Period.
And I think we all realize that TG is the family spokesperson and he has done alot for his family. That bein said...I still think it is gonna take someone close to this investigation to move it forward. Unless they are satisfied with the way it has been handled ...:shrug: [/*]

I've looked at some of the other cases, Aardsma, Luna, cases where it is known that the person is dead. In comparison, both families has had no where near the visibility, and have not provided the access, that the Gricar family and PEF has.

Cinderella

03-30-2008, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I've looked at some of the other cases, Aardsma, Luna, cases where it is known that the person is dead. In comparison, both families has had no where near the visibility, and have not provided the access, that the Gricar family and PEF has. [/*]

J. J., you are just taking 2 cases, what about the other cases. The more information that is released, I would think might jog someone's memory. You look at the case of Chandra Levy. Her family was speaking out all the time. Does the Gricar family or PF have something to hide?

J. J. in Phila

03-31-2008, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

J. J., you are just taking 2 cases, what about the other cases. The more information that is released, I would think might jog someone's memory. You look at the case of Chandra Levy. Her family was speaking out all the time. Does the Gricar family or PF have something to hide? [/*]

I'm far from certain that every member of the Levy family spoke out. I would say that the Gricar family, through its spokesman, has done the same same thing (though RFG was wasn't some young attractive and female, and yes, that plays a factor whether we want to admit it or not).

PEF had been speaking out separately into December 2005, in a formal interview, though I'm not certain she's been asked for an interview after that.

Cloudbuster

03-31-2008, 02:42 AM

JJ it would help if PF and Lara both would do a interview or speak up.
JMO

Cloudbuster

04-02-2008, 02:44 AM

This part of the timeline taken from Pgals website just jumps out at me.
April 14, 2005 - Gricar attends a Prison Board meeting at approx 8:30 am.
April 14, 2005 - Daughter Lara Gricar phones Gricar from Washington and says their conversation was normal
April 14, 2005 - Gricar's office door is forcefully closed several times mid afternoon
April 14, 2005 - Gricar and girlfriend Patty Fornicola are seen walking in Tallyrand Park by a Centre County Commissioner. Gricar is described as "depressed looking" as neither he nor his girlfriend respond to a compliment of being the perfect couple.
April 14, 2005 - Gricar is seen in courthouse surveillance video entering the courthouse at approx 6:15 pm to do some work, and is seen leaving approx 9:15 pm. He is wearing blue jeans, sneakers and a blue fleece jacket. He is not carrying his laptop computer.
April 15, 2005 - Girlfriend Patty Fornicola states that Gricar woke up and told her he was going to take 1/2 the day off from work and then he went back to sleep. She left him a note instructing that if he went anywhere, to let her know so that she could make arrangements to let the dog out at noon.

The events of April 14th stand out. RG went to a prision board meeting, sometime most likely after meeting he spoke with his daughter. MIDAFTERNOON his door is forcefully closed several times. So which event had him aggravated enough to slam door several times? Was it both the prision board meeting and the phone call from Lara? Sure seemed like he was aggitated. Perhaps he was feeling under preasure? Later he takes a walk with PF in Talleyrand park and seems depressed. Was it because he had to explain something to PF? Did it entale Lara or the prision board meeting or both? Did PF and him have words so he went back to the office at 6:15? How do they know RG was working until 9pm at the courthouse? Could he have been using the phone from there? Have they checked phone records from 6:15 till 9pm? incoming and outgoing? Did he use that time to phone Lara about something after he went over whatever it was with PF? Was there a problem going on with both ladies? I just don't feel that we know all the real details of this case and I think some of it is hidden because of how it would look. For instance why didn't MS give RG's mail to PF? MS got and OPENED RG's renewal liscense and even tried to renew it??? Come on folks NOW why wouldn't MS have given it to PF??? Why didn't PF know anything about the renewal or did she? If she did why wouldn't she have called Lara to tell her?? Perhaps a problem there. Come on ladies?????????????????????????
JMHOhammer

J. J. in Phila

04-02-2008, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

The events of April 14th stand out. RG went to a prision board meeting, sometime most likely after meeting he spoke with his daughter. MIDAFTERNOON his door is forcefully closed several times. So which event had him aggravated enough to slam door several times? Was it both the prision board meeting and the phone call from Lara? Sure seemed like he was aggitated.

First, we're not sure that it was RFG forcefully closing the door. He may have been out of the office at that point.

Second the PBM ended before 9:00 AM. The minutes look routine, and that's obviously a gap between then and "mid afternoon."

Third, LG's call was listed as being in the "morning." That might have been her time, which is a 3 hour difference. The call could have been in anytime before 3:00 PM. I believe the call went to his cell phone.

At the time the licenses came due, the only person who could have handled it was his guardian, LG. MS should have contacted her.

Politigal

04-02-2008, 07:12 PM

Under "odds & ends" I had another interesting visit to my googlepages.

Someone in Barcelona Spain googled keywords

april 17 2005 centre county pa

Politigal

04-02-2008, 11:55 PM

Not that it amounts to anything, I've also recently had visits from the Social Security Admin, the PA State Employees Credit Union, & the Defense Dept, etc.

Cloudbuster

04-03-2008, 12:16 AM

Interesting Pgal!! Especially the defense dept.

ladyheartfixer

04-03-2008, 02:46 AM

yes indeed...very interesting ;)

tonyGricar

04-03-2008, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I see the photo that had LG and PF in it has been replaced with one showing RG in a Turner Classic Movie T-shirt. Hmm-m. [/*]We wanted another close-up shot of Ray on there. Feel free to send an email to rgreward@yahoo.com with any issues you may have with this change.

And yes, the domain will be renewed. Christ...

tonyGricar

04-03-2008, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
Under "odds & ends" I had another interesting visit to my googlepages.

Someone in Barcelona Spain googled keywords

april 17 2005 centre county pa [/*]Neither here nor there... I know approximately 25 people abroad who are watching this case. Pretty recognizeable in my logs. 3 in Spain, 2 in Barcelona, fwiw. If it helps, 4 in Slovenia, 7 in the UK, 3 in Australia, 3 in Italy, Holland varies, 1 in Germany, Amsterdam varies based on my friend's interests, and don't get me started on Quantico, Va. And Thailand, the Turks, and Wales was likely me.

As for the DD, Soc Sec, etc, those would be the gateways any employee surfing would be using.

Remember, I show up on your logs, albeit a solid half-hour drive from the indicated location. The right software on your server will let you knock on the appropriate front door. ;)

J. J. in Phila

04-03-2008, 12:32 PM

DoD wouldn't be that unusual, considering that some one who knew Roy Gricar might still be working there.

Cloudbuster

04-04-2008, 01:31 AM

old case of Ray's I thought SJ you might want to look at:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1996_jan-dec/1996_oct/1996-10-21_the_daily_collegian/1996-10-21d01-001.htm

What was or was not done at the inquest has nothing to do with what will be brought up at the hearing or trial, Gricar said.

"We will look at the evidence, look at the law and go step by step making the decisions that are right, regardless of displeasure or political repercussions from anybody," he said. "I will do everything I can to present all the evidence that supports the charges and give a fair trial to everybody."

Laurie Sampson said she wants the location of the trial changed because, shortly after her husband was killed, Ferguson Township Police Chief Edward Connor told the press it was a justifiable homicide. She does not think the case can be tried fairly under those circumstances, she said.

A change of venue cannot be considered until the case gets to court, Gricar said.Gricar said this case will not involve the death penalty. In Pennsylvania, the district attorney must look at 17 criteria for whether a defendant convicted of first-degree murder should be given the death penalty.

After looking at the 17 aggravating circumstances, which include contract killing, killing of a child under a certain age, killing of bystanders and killing a police officer on duty, Gricar said none of those criteria apply to this case.

"If convicted of first-degree murder, the penalty would be life in prison without parole," he said, adding that his view of the death penalty plays no factor in this case - it is a legal decision.

Despite her satisfaction with Gricar's decision, Deloranzo Sampson, Kitu Sampson's mother, said she would not trust her life in the hands of the district attorney."There has been too much deception from day one, and I'm a very open-minded person and I like to trust in people," she said. "I will believe it when it comes to pass. It's all in how the case is presented."

Although some members of Sampson's family said race was an issue in the case, Gricar said only the evidence and the law will affect the outcome of the case.Tracy Brandeis-Roman, an attorney from Philadelphia hired by the Sampson family, said she will pursue the federal forum if Sampson does not get a fair trial and will still pursue a civil rights action.

"I don't think that Kitu Sampson could get the fair trial he deserves here," she said, adding that she would like to see the trial in a big city such as Philadelphia or New York.

Cloudbuster

04-04-2008, 01:38 AM

I think this article is interesting about contract killers.
Others contract a murder in an attempt to reap some kind of financial windfall--usually as a beneficiary of the victim's insurance policies, or as heir to their estate. However, the most common motive usually involves simply ending an intimate relationship, albeit for a variety of reasons.[1]

((((Contract killers may make their crime an obvious murder, but may also try to make the death appear to be a suicide or even an accident, or may hide or destroy the body so that it is not clear to authorities that the victim is dead, only that they have disappeared))))) could be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_killers

sherrijean981

04-04-2008, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
old case of Ray's I thought SJ you might want to look at:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1996_jan-dec/1996_oct/1996-10-21_the_daily_collegian/1996-10-21d01-001.htm

What was or was not done at the inquest has nothing to do with what will be brought up at the hearing or trial, Gricar said.

"We will look at the evidence, look at the law and go step by step making the decisions that are right, regardless of displeasure or political repercussions from anybody," he said. "I will do everything I can to present all the evidence that supports the charges and give a fair trial to everybody."

Laurie Sampson said she wants the location of the trial changed because, shortly after her husband was killed, Ferguson Township Police Chief Edward Connor told the press it was a justifiable homicide. She does not think the case can be tried fairly under those circumstances, she said.

A change of venue cannot be considered until the case gets to court, Gricar said.Gricar said this case will not involve the death penalty. In Pennsylvania, the district attorney must look at 17 criteria for whether a defendant convicted of first-degree murder should be given the death penalty.

After looking at the 17 aggravating circumstances, which include contract killing, killing of a child under a certain age, killing of bystanders and killing a police officer on duty, Gricar said none of those criteria apply to this case.

"If convicted of first-degree murder, the penalty would be life in prison without parole," he said, adding that his view of the death penalty plays no factor in this case - it is a legal decision.

Despite her satisfaction with Gricar's decision, Deloranzo Sampson, Kitu Sampson's mother, said she would not trust her life in the hands of the district attorney."There has been too much deception from day one, and I'm a very open-minded person and I like to trust in people," she said. "I will believe it when it comes to pass. It's all in how the case is presented."

Although some members of Sampson's family said race was an issue in the case, Gricar said only the evidence and the law will affect the outcome of the case.Tracy Brandeis-Roman, an attorney from Philadelphia hired by the Sampson family, said she will pursue the federal forum if Sampson does not get a fair trial and will still pursue a civil rights action.

"I don't think that Kitu Sampson could get the fair trial he deserves here," she said, adding that she would like to see the trial in a big city such as Philadelphia or New York. [/*]

I remember this case in the news. I thought the parents were the ones who were racial. Not Ray Gricar. JMO

sherrijean981

04-04-2008, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I think this article is interesting about contract killers.
Others contract a murder in an attempt to reap some kind of financial windfall--usually as a beneficiary of the victim's insurance policies, or as heir to their estate. However, the most common motive usually involves simply ending an intimate relationship, albeit for a variety of reasons.[1]

((((Contract killers may make their crime an obvious murder, but may also try to make the death appear to be a suicide or even an accident, or may hide or destroy the body so that it is not clear to authorities that the victim is dead, only that they have disappeared))))) could be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_killers [/*]

Who do you think would have been the person who might have put a contract out on Ray? Just remember, a contract killing is not just about money or insurance policies. You mention in your second sentence "Others" contract in an attempt to reap some kind of financial windfall. What was the previous listings of who might put out a contract, besides the "others" ?

By just stating the part of insurance windfall or beneficiary/heir you are putting it on to a family member or loved one. Is that what you are implying?:confused:

J. J. in Phila

04-04-2008, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

By just stating the part of insurance windfall or beneficiary/heir you are putting it on to a family member or loved one. Is that what you are implying?:confused: [/*]

I think one of the real problems with the contract killer is money. Because RFG is not dead, legally, no one can inherit.

Even if the family would file now, it's been a three year delay.

Cloudbuster

04-04-2008, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I think one of the real problems with the contract killer is money. Because RFG is not dead, legally, no one can inherit.

Even if the family would file now, it's been a three year delay. [/*]

JJ you missed the point. The contract killer would have made ALOT of money because of Ray being a high profile person and alot of media ect. Contract killer used the hide the body method to point as a disappearance with undertones of suicide which was pushed in the beginning and weirdly is still on the 3 theories list.

It could have been a straight up POLITICALLY motivated contract killing. Vargas Mendez case is a death penalty case. I don't care who you or they said that would have tried that case cause RAY GRICAR is not here to tell you the TRUTH. Up till his disappearance Ray was going for the death Penalty period!!! Another case is the drug bust. Maybe RG did come unto some corruption in the system and alot more people was on the verge of being brought down, like people of stature. Im sure RG faced political repercussions at times cause he even used that word in the above case back then.

JJ there are some people out in this world who just don't like it when there is a honest DA in the midst that doesn't take a bribe or payoff. If it affected anything related to them then oh while contract killers do exist for those high in power or someone that's got money, but in this case if thats what happened that someone had alot of money looks like a higher up person.
jmo

Cloudbuster

04-04-2008, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Very interesting, CB.
I have always thought this scenario held the highest possibility for the 'disappearance'.
JMO [/*]

LW thanks we are thinking alike. There is a new book I might buy called Kidnapping: An Invesigator's Guide to Profiling.
Diana M. Concannon, state of California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation,CA, USA

April 2008 Hardback 240 pp., ISBN:9780123740311
price list $59.95

I don't know if it will help but thought I'd share it in case your interested.

Cloudbuster

04-04-2008, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Who do you think would have been the person who might have put a contract out on Ray? Just remember, a contract killing is not just about money or insurance policies. You mention in your second sentence "Others" contract in an attempt to reap some kind of financial windfall. What was the previous listings of who might put out a contract, besides the "others" ?

By just stating the part of insurance windfall or beneficiary/heir you are putting it on to a family member or loved one. Is that what you are implying?:confused: [/*]

Im leaning toward politically motivated (Isues like death penalty case) or case coverups (bribes payoff stuff) or CORRUPTION in the making that Ray was about to possibly roll over on. RG may have learned by shear accident of anything like that.

Cloudbuster

04-05-2008, 12:11 AM

SJ my list is down to 6. Two of them with bizzare reasons and the other 4 I just can't rule out yet. IMHO someone got paid big$. I can't get into my thoughts about this on here.

I still believe the MW was right there when something happened. I bet she has a very prestige alibi. ;) Wonder why they can't do anything in this case its obvious to me. If I had higher ups arranging my alibi oh while whats LE supposed to do with that one?

MOO

J. J. in Phila

04-05-2008, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

It could have been a straight up POLITICALLY motivated contract killing. Vargas Mendez case is a death penalty case. I don't care who you or they said that would have tried that case cause RAY GRICAR is not here to tell you the TRUTH. Up till his disappearance Ray was going for the death Penalty period!!!

It was still a death penalty case after 4/15. The first degree charge was dismissed by the judge and overall, the case was weak on 4/15. It got weaker over the summer.

Another case is the drug bust.

Except the case was not being handled by the Centre County DA's Office.

JJ there are some people out in this world who just don't like it when there is a honest DA in the midst that doesn't take a bribe or payoff.

I'm aware of that, but in 8 1/2 months, they wouldn't be dealing with RFG. If this had happened in 2002, I could see it. RFG disappeared at a time when he would gone from the position in January 2006.

sherrijean981

04-05-2008, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I'm aware of that, but in 8 1/2 months, they wouldn't be dealing with RFG. If this had happened in 2002, I could see it. RFG disappeared at a time when he would gone from the position in January 2006. [/*]

So what was so important at that time of his employment with Centre County as a DA, that would be a cause of his disappearing? Was there a case coming up that caused it? One he was already working on? Or nothing to do with his job? Just something someone else was doing that he stumbled on, someone or a couple of people he saw doing something and they knew he did?

I keep wondering about the Williamsport police who deleted all those task force files and were taking evidence. How far did that go around PA? Were Centre County files included in that? How many cases were affected by the loss of files?

Cloudbuster

04-05-2008, 02:00 AM

Those files bug me too SJ. On another note no one seemed to know who was getting what in Gricar's estate and there was money there, this article spoke of it.

If found alive, Ray Gricar will also receive retirement funds. If he remains missing, the courts could eventually issue a court order and possibly declare him deceased.

"The disposition of funds can't be known until there's resolution of the case, and the resolution of the case would be a court order," Killian said.

Killian said depending on Ray Gricar's ultimate status -- deceased, alive or missing --((( his estate will follow different paths accordingly.)))

(((("No one has an answer to how much and who's going to get it," he said. "But there's money here."))))

Killian said when Ray Gricar's status is known or declared by the courts, his wages will be subsequently managed.

Goodall added that until there is a final decision of Ray Gricar's status, his salary remains untouched.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2006/09/09-06-06tdc/09-06-06dnews-01.asp

Cloudbuster

04-05-2008, 02:09 AM

JJ the death penalty case getting weaker WOULD because Ray was not around. It don't matter about AFTER THE FACT. THE fact was Ray disappeared and how can you say what Ray would or wouldn't have done? His voice left when he disappeared and we will never know now. Sorry but in all the readings of his cases I will bet behond a shadow of a doubt that Ray would not have backed down in defending a young child, no way no how. He was the voice for that baby and surely he would have never backed away. :read:

J. J. in Phila

04-05-2008, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ the death penalty case getting weaker WOULD because Ray was not around. It don't matter about AFTER THE FACT. THE fact was Ray disappeared and how can you say what Ray would or wouldn't have done? His voice left when he disappeared and we will never know now. Sorry but in all the readings of his cases I will bet behond a shadow of a doubt that Ray would not have backed down in defending a young child, no way no how. He was the voice for that baby and surely he would have never backed away. :read: [/*]

It is NOT a question of RFG "backing away." It is a question of if the evidence would support the charge. That evidence was ther well before 4/15/05 and would be there after 4/15/05.

The DA's Office still pursued the death penalty, but the judge, looking at the evidence for 1st degree murder, said it wasn't there. And since you've posted about the Grove case, you will see that something similar happened there.

puzzled

04-05-2008, 11:56 AM

What are the odds that the complaceny will contnue and that some of us will still be posting the same old crap three years from now?:no:

J. J. in Phila

04-05-2008, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by puzzled
What are the odds that the complaceny will contnue and that some of us will still be posting the same old crap three years from now?:no: [/*]

Considering that many of the questions were asked and answered, many even before I showed up, I'd say 100%.

Interestingly, more information on the Vargas case came out last Fall. It showed a weaker case against Vargas that was expected.

Serendipitous1

04-05-2008, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snip>
Interestingly, more information on the Vargas case came out last Fall. It showed a weaker case against Vargas that was expected. Lest any readers should be led astray, J.J. is posting his opinion on the Vargas matter from the perspective of hindsight. However, the eventual outcome of that potential death-penalty case has nothing whatsoever to do with the emotional volatility and uncertainty which existed early in 2005...with the trial then looming within RG's term of office.

There are problems with all of the theories presented thus far. The Vargas case is no exception. But it remains high on my list of potential foul-play explanations for RG's disappearance. All JMOO.

J. J. in Phila

04-05-2008, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Lest any readers should be led astray, J.J. is posting his opinion on the Vargas matter from the perspective of hindsight. However, the eventual outcome of that potential death-penalty case has nothing whatsoever to do with the emotional volatility and uncertainty which existed early in 2005...with the trial then looming within RG's term of office.

There are problems with all of the theories presented thus far. The Vargas case is no exception. But it remains high on my list of potential foul-play explanations for RG's disappearance. All JMOO. [/*]

No, I'm repeating what the prosecution evidence was. They had two expert witnesses, the doctor who treated the baby and a consultant (I think a forensic pathologist) who reviewed the evidence.

The doctor who treaded the baby indicated that the baby had no head trauma. The pathologist insisted that there was. The hospital did do a test for Vitamin K, which was completed only after the bady dead; it had to sent away. The baby did have a Vitamin K deficiency and additional problems.

All this evidence had to be disclosed to the defense attorneys. All this was known prior to 4/15/05.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/10847837.html

Now, we didn't know about it, but it was a weak case, based on the evidence. Unless, of course, you are suggestion that RFG was pulling a Mike Nifong.

The is also a serious question if the trial would have been scheduled within the term of office. The only potentially capital case I could find was the Vargas case; you do remember what Spotts said about the attempt to have it scheduled in October. That pushes into, what, December at the earliest? For jury selection and a possibly long trial.

Serendipitous1

04-05-2008, 10:20 PM

MOO. You are only (assumedly) observing what the prosecution evidence eventually was in the Vargas case. Regardless of the legal issues, and the timing of evidence and discovery, there was a very real and human issue...the projection of an 'innocent' father being 'unjustly' persecuted, under threat of death-by-state by a county DA...Ray Gricar. And this case was, at the time, heading for trial within RG's term of office.

I know you like to have the 'last word'. So I would just like to say, in advance and in regard to this matter, I am 100% completely in opposition to whatever it is.

Politigal

04-06-2008, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

And I am 100% in agreement with you, S1.
The case is at the top of the list in the foul play scenario, when it comes to cases in which RG was involved in at the time of disappearance.
JMO [/*]

I agree as well.

That guy had a huge support system - online - and in public - both in this country and abroad.

J. J. in Phila

04-06-2008, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO. You are only (assumedly) observing what the prosecution evidence eventually was in the Vargas case. Regardless of the legal issues, and the timing of evidence and discovery, there was a very real and human issue...the projection of an 'innocent' father being 'unjustly' persecuted, under threat of death-by-state by a county DA...Ray Gricar. And this case was, at the time, heading for trial within RG's term of office.

Would you please indicate when the case was scheduled to go to trial? The only think I've seen is that RFG didn't want the trial in October (unless someone can find another capital case).

I will also point that at least one of the doctors (possibly both) testified at the preliminary hearing. There was also a fairly long gap between the baby's treatment and the filing of charges, a bit over 11 months.

There is a "human element," but it does not match the facts.

This was the situation in the Vargas case on 4/15/05:

1. Vargas is in the process of getting new (top line) attorneys. They will however need time to prepare.

2. Vargas has two stellar expert witnesses lined up (including one that is a department head at Children's Hospital in Philia, generally testifies for the prosecution in abuse cases, and wrote a text book on shaken baby syndrome).

3. The prosecution two expert witnesses disagree on if the baby had any head trauma, and that is in the report that even Manchester should have gotten.

4. The DA won't prosecute the case until after October, hasn't, so far as we've seen, been willing to schedule the case, and will be out of office at the end of December.

In these circumstances, that would be known by Vargas and Mullenax, it doesn't make a lot of sense for either of them to kill RFG (and Vargas was in jail). RFG was not pressing to have the case go to trial, obviously.

Serendipitous1

04-06-2008, 01:17 AM

So what are we to glean from LE's 'official tripe'? TG has alluded to the fact that all of RG's current cases were investigated. TG has also said he would not divulge anything of importance to a possible prosecution. So I would think that does not rule out any of the popular theories (here) regarding RG's current cases. MOO

Serendipitous1

04-06-2008, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Would you please indicate when the case was scheduled to go to trial? Surely...and maybe someone in authority can clear this up. According to the online documents at UJS, criminal jury selection was scheduled for 4/4/05, but was at some point continued. DeCaro and Heymeyer did not come in (officially) until 4/29/05. So what? And do you really think there were not 'mental midget type' Vargas supporters who gave a rat's *** about the trial timing or defense witnesses?

Cloudbuster

04-06-2008, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Would you please indicate when the case was scheduled to go to trial? The only think I've seen is that RFG didn't want the trial in October (unless someone can find another capital case).

I will also point that at least one of the doctors (possibly both) testified at the preliminary hearing. There was also a fairly long gap between the baby's treatment and the filing of charges, a bit over 11 months.

There is a "human element," but it does not match the facts.

This was the situation in the Vargas case on 4/15/05:

1. Vargas is in the process of getting new (top line) attorneys. They will however need time to prepare.

2. Vargas has two stellar expert witnesses lined up (including one that is a department head at Children's Hospital in Philia, generally testifies for the prosecution in abuse cases, and wrote a text book on shaken baby syndrome).

3. The prosecution two expert witnesses disagree on if the baby had any head trauma, and that is in the report that even Manchester should have gotten.

4. The DA won't prosecute the case until after October, hasn't, so far as we've seen, been willing to schedule the case, and will be out of office at the end of December.

In these circumstances, that would be known by Vargas and Mullenax, it doesn't make a lot of sense for either of them to kill RFG (and Vargas was in jail). RFG was not pressing to have the case go to trial, obviously. [/*]

JJ ever hear of a contract killing? This case could have also been causing problems. It's a capital case. Maybe Ray wasn't decided on a date yet and was stalling for reasons unknown to us. Maybe alot was going on behind the scenes???????:(

J. J. in Phila

04-06-2008, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
So what are we to glean from LE's 'official tripe'? TG has alluded to the fact that all of RG's current cases were investigated. TG has also said he would not divulge anything of importance to a possible prosecution. So I would think that does not rule out any of the popular theories (here) regarding RG's current cases. MOO [/*]

It doesn't preclude two possibilities:

1. Someone associated with a previous case (the "slow burn").

2. Someone who had an "ideological grudge" against RFG. RFG did some things which didn't sit well with some elements:

i. He was pro-death penalty.

ii. He did prosecute even "minor (by Philadelphia standards)" drug cases. He gave some people the impression that he was strongly opposed to the legalization of marijuana.

iii. Yes, someone out there could have read Mullenax screed online and thought he was a danger to there worries over vaccines.

The problem with the "mental midget types," or even a mentally disturbed type, is trying to see them plan out a crime this elaborate and carry it off so successfully. There is also the laptop problem with this scenario.

Someone that wasn't a "mental midget" and had an "ideological grudge" would realize that in 8.5 months, RFG's ideology would be completely irrelevant, because if they do nothing, he wouldn't be the DA.

I'm sure someone out there could find a reason to hate Mother Teresa, to the point where they would have wanted to kill her. There could have been someone like that with RFG.

Serendipitous1

04-06-2008, 02:23 AM

As complex as this case has turned out to be, I have always thought the explanation to be simple...even trivial to some. JMOO

J. J. in Phila

04-06-2008, 03:23 AM

I'll give you an example, sort of, of what I'm talking about.

In January, a woman named Smith was murdered in a church in rural to suburban Buck County (Hellertown). Smith recently joined the church and was volunteering at the church office, where she was shot.

A fellow member named Mary Fonder was just arrested. Fonder's motive apparently that she wanted to have a romantic relationship with the Pastor and thought that Smith was having a relationship with him. Smith wasn't and Fonder didn't indicate to the Pastor that she was interested until after the murder; the Pastor was not interested and eventually blocked her calls.

http://blog.pennlive.com/lvbreakingnews/2008/04/woman_arrested_in_murder_of_he.html

Now, to me, that is a bizarre motive, but people are killed because of bizarre motives.

So assuming that RFG was murdered, could the motive have been:

1. Someone was angry about his views

i. The death penalty?

ii. His perceived views on marijuana legalization?

iii. That he was prosecuting Vargas?

iv. About some other issue?

2. Was jealous because RFG was with PEF and not with her?

3. Wanted to get rid of him so he could get closer to PEF?

4. Thought he was involved with the killer's SO?

5. Was angry because he endorsed MM?

6. Was angry because RFG prosecuted them and they were:

i. Found guilty?

ii. Found not guilty, but suffered economic reversals because of being tried?

7. Was angry because RFG didn't file charges or get a conviction against someone who supposedly wrong them.

8. Was angry because RFG forced him to testify about something?

(I'm sure that there are other reasons.)

The question is, in these categories, who would have the ability to pull this off?

Cloudbuster

04-06-2008, 03:27 AM

JJ I think someone got UPSET (maybe) about the MONEY it would cost to pursue the Vargas, Mendez death Penalty case.
_________________________________________________
The high price of the death penalty is often most keenly felt in those counties responsible for both the prosecution and defense of capital defendants. A single trial can mean near bankruptcy, tax increases, and the laying off of vital personnel. Trials costing a small county $100,000 from unbudgeted funds are common and some officials have even gone to jail in resisting payment.

This report will focus first on the role the death penalty plays in the economic crisis facing states and local governments. As budgets everywhere are being tightened, the death penalty looms as an exorbitant and superfluous "luxury item." Some counties have been pushed to the brink of bankruptcy and have had to enact repeated tax increases to fund these extremely expensive cases. As money is spent on the death penalty, it is thereby less available for the very programs which are the backbone of the effort to reduce crime in this country.

Most of these costs occur in every case for which capital punishment is sought, regardless of the outcome. Thus, the true cost of the death penalty includes all the added expenses of the "unsuccessful" trials in which the death penalty is sought but not achieved. Moreover, if a defendant is convicted but not given the death sentence, the state will still incur the costs of life imprisonment, in addition to the increased trial expenses.

For the states which employ the death penalty, this luxury comes at a high price.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=385

and:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108

So could someone explain to me who might just be upset over a death penalty case? Is it the state or county gov? Obviously these cases can wipe out a county budget, am I reading this right?

J. J. in Phila

04-06-2008, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ I think someone got UPSET (maybe) about the MONEY it would cost to pursue the Vargas, Mendez death Penalty case.
_________________________________________________

So could someone explain to me who might just be upset over a death penalty case? Is it the state or county gov? Obviously these cases can wipe out a county budget, am I reading this right? [/*]

We can add that the killer though RFG was too expensive to be DA to the list, I guess.

In answer to your question, neither.

Generally, there are people that strongly oppose the death penalty in all cases. Actor Mike Farrel (*.J. Hunnicut from MASH) is one of the more famous opponents. The Supreme Court said it was cruel and unusual punishment for a while.

Suppose that someone out there was really opposed to the death penalty. That person could see RFG as instrument of enforcing it, and want to remove or punish him.

J. J. in Phila

04-06-2008, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

We have long heard the argument, he was in prison, therefore in no way could he be responsible (and of course, we KNOW that no contract killing could EVER be made from prison (tongue-in-cheek). I wonder whether BJL was in prison with AM. IIRC, AM was brought up from Clinton County for the hearing in December. Anyone know whether BJL was in CCP at that time?

There are some problem with the "contract killer scenario" in general an Vargas in specific.

In the specific, by 1/1/05, Vargas and Mullenax had spent most of their money on their attorney (Manchester). There is also the problem of BJL's whereabouts (supposedly checked by the PSP) and his ability to plan out a complex hit.

In general, I could very easily see a professional killer walking up to RFG on the street in Lewisburg and shooting him, forcing his car off the road on 192 and shooting him, knocking on his front door and killing him when he answered. I cannot see and circumstances where the killer would hide the body.

I cannot see any circumstance where RFG would take his laptop with him to Lewisburg for a pleasure trip, where a "contract killer" would go to his car and take his laptop if it was there, or where the "contract killer" would go back to Bellefonte and know to go right to the closet and remove the laptop.

Whispers

04-06-2008, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It doesn't preclude two possibilities:

1. Someone associated with a previous case (the "slow burn").

2. Someone who had an "ideological grudge" against RFG. RFG did some things which didn't sit well with some elements:

i. He was pro-death penalty.

ii. He did prosecute even "minor (by Philadelphia standards)" drug cases. He gave some people the impression that he was strongly opposed to the legalization of marijuana.

iii. Yes, someone out there could have read Mullenax screed online and thought he was a danger to there worries over vaccines.

The problem with the "mental midget types," or even a mentally disturbed type, is trying to see them plan out a crime this elaborate and carry it off so successfully. There is also the laptop problem with this scenario.

Someone that wasn't a "mental midget" and had an "ideological grudge" would realize that in 8.5 months, RFG's ideology would be completely irrelevant, because if they do nothing, he wouldn't be the DA.

I'm sure someone out there could find a reason to hate Mother Teresa, to the point where they would have wanted to kill her. There could have been someone like that with RFG. [/*]

Whispers

04-06-2008, 05:27 PM

I don't think RG was pro-death penalty. He followed the law which permit the imposition of the death penalty, but would generally seat a co-counsel for that part of the case.

J. J. in Phila

04-06-2008, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Whispers
I don't think RG was pro-death penalty. He followed the law which permit the imposition of the death penalty, but would generally seat a co-counsel for that part of the case. [/*]

I think he could have declined to seek the death penalty, just as a matter discretion.

From what I've heard, he also prosecuted those personally.

It might be better to say that was perceived as being pro-death penalty.

gstickley

04-07-2008, 01:31 AM

Serendipitous1
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1465
Commonwealth v. Vargas
The following timeline was taken from the online Criminal Docket entries at ujsportal.pacourts.us. ( http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/WebDoc...erCriteria.aspx ), regarding the subject case:

Offense Date - 08/27/2002

2003:
09/12 - R. Bruce Manchester enters his appearance
09/12 - return of D.J. filed: murder of the first and second degree; defendant committed to prison
09/24 - information filed: first and third degree murder
09/24 - notice of aggravating circumstance and intention to seek the death penalty
10/06 - request for bill of particulars
10/21 - bill of particulars filed
11/19 - motion for trial postponement filed and granted (from Dec 2003 term to Feb 2004 term

2004:
04/29 - motion for admission pro hav vice of Elaine Whitfield Sharp
04/30 - conference in chambers
05/03 - earlier order admitting Ms. Sharp is vacated
05/03 - motion for admission pro hac vice granted
05/21 - transcript of proceedings filed for 4/30/04 conference in chambers
08/03 - motion for trial postponement filed and granted (from 8/2/04 to 10/11/04)
09/09 - motion for trial postponement filed and granted (from Oct 2004 term to Dec 2004 term)
10/13 - defendant's motion for indigent status
11/03 - motion for authorization of payment of attorney fees and costs
11/03 - motion for special admission of co-counsel
11/19 - rule filed; rule to show cause filed (hearing on 12/17/2004)
12/15 - petition for leave to allow counsel to withdraw entry of appearance
12/16 - praecipe to withdraw defendant's motion for indigent status; praecipe to withdraw defendant's petition for pro hac vice

2005:
01/05 - petition for counsel to withdraw is granted
01/10 - Edward S. Blanarik, Jr. appointed to represent defendant
01/14 - Mr. Blanarik (and firm) enter their appearance on behalf of defendant
01/24 - Karen Muir appointed second chair to represent defendant
04/01 - omnibus pre-trial motion nunc pro tunc
04/04 - jury selection (continued)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- [RFG disappears]
04/29 - A. Roy DeCaro and Charles Philip Hehmeyer file entries of appearance
05/18 - Mr. Blanarik files motion to withdraw as counsel
05/19 - pre-trial conference (scheduled)
06/01 - order filed - Mr. Blanarik and Ms. Muir withdrawn as counsel
06/03 - notice of hearing
06/06 - jury selection (scheduled)
07/19 - pre-trial conference (scheduled)
08/01 - jury selection (scheduled)
09/15 - pre-trial conference (scheduled)
10/18 - opinion and order
11/14 - Nolo Contendre
11/15 - pre-trial conference (scheduled)
11/22 - pre-trial conference; 1st degree murder, dismissed by information; 3rd degree murder, Nolle Prossed; Involuntary Manslaughter, Nolo Contendre; sentence - 364 to 729 days confinement, 2 years probation
11/23 - warden directed to release defendant
11/28 - Nolo Contendre plea
11/30 - penalty assessed - civil
12/15 - sentence/penalty imposed

Case Status: Closed

Perhaps someone can put this timeline into context with other information. You locals can go to the Prothonotary's office and look at the actual file (ask for the file, not the docket) No. C-03-1742; whatever papers got filed and weren't sealed by the court.

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12-09-2006 01:58 AM

J. J. in Phila

04-07-2008, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

What are you implying here? [/*]

That the law makes some types of murder death penalty eligible, but that doesn't require the prosecutor to ask for the death penalty.

I can think of least one case, the guy who basically beheaded the convenience store clerk (it was on the video tape), where RFG did not ask for the death penalty, but got a 1st degree conviction. That might have been the case with the "Penn State sniper" case as well.

Just because a DA can ask for the death penalty doesn't mean he has to ask for it. He had the discretion to ask for it or not.

J. J. in Phila

04-07-2008, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Question here........Were DeCaro and Heymeyer onboard at the time of disappearance? Was RG aware of them at the time of disappearance?

While not officially on it, the Legal-Intelligencer noted that they were delayed by the disappearance. Also, Heymeyer, while he long record of dealing with medical issues, was not a criminal attorney and needed a "death certified" attorney, so there was some delay with he had to line up Decaro. It was two attorneys from the same first doing pro bono work.

Just thinking that if these two were already introduced to the wife, and AM, and things were looking 'up' with them coming on backed up by their experts, what motive for disappearing RG then? I never heard mention of the two attorneys until AFTER RG went missing.
JMO [/*]

She had contacted Morton, who recommended Heymeyer, whom he knew from the Glick case. It wasn't something thrown together in a few weeks.

Some of the "things that were looking 'up'" however were actually the medical reports for the prosecution.

As for the schedule, the jury selection on 4/4/05 never happened and the defense would need time to prepare the case. As far as I know, the only murder case pending at the DA's office was the Vargas case, and Spotts referred to a murder case conference (c. 3/15) with the judge where RFG said, "I won't be here," about an October date.

As far as I can tell, the might start jury selections every two months (from the posted schedule). If it isn't scheduled by October the earliest it could start is early December; it probably won't be finished in one day. There might be a break between jury selection and the start of the trial, even if there are no delays. This has the potential for being a long trial as well.

RFG's term was ending on 1/1/06, so it is possible that it could not have been completed before that date. He probably would not have been there foir the full case, and there would be potential issues with switching attorneys in mid case. My guess would be that the court would delay all of this until after the new DA was seated.

I know that I was called for jury duty in Cambria County and it was is mid January, though there wasn't a change in administrations that year.

J. J. in Phila

04-07-2008, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

That doesn't answer my questions........
Was RG aware of these two new attorneys on April 15, 2005? Were Mendez and wife aware of these two new attorneys on
April 15, 2005? [/*]

Mullenax would have known at that point.

Here are some things regardin the timeline:

This was like déjà vu for Hehmeyer. He received a nearly identical call five years earlier from Morton. After that call, Hehmeyer took on as pro bono the case of another Amish mother who was accused by the same medical center of shaking her baby to death, he said.

http://www.raynesmccarty.com/news/print.php?ID=67

The Glick case was resolved in 2/2000, Morton had been involved in late 1999 had quickly in involved Hehmeyer, before that.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/people-feb06.html

Maybe the author is speaking loosely, but it would have been about 5 years and three to four months before 4/15.

According to the attorneys, taking care of the logistics of the case was difficult because the original prosecutor in the case, Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar, went missing in April.

They secured a trial date of January 2006 earlier this summer. Their next step was to get rid of the capital murder charge, removing the possibility of a death sentence if the case went to trial.

http://www.raynesmccarty.com/news/print.php?ID=67

A trial date hadn't been set by 4/15/05 and RFG was not willing to schedule it for 10/05 and he said that in 3/05.

RFG's disappearance really didn't "help" the Vargas case.

sherrijean981

04-07-2008, 03:14 PM

But the murder charges were still in effect and it was after his disappearance that they were changed.

If the case was being present in 1/06, how soon would it have happened if RG had not have disappeared? Maybe not during his yearly vacation, but before 1/06 surely?

I always questioned why VM's wife was upset that he took the plea, he didn't let it go to trial, and he got out much sooner. Why has she not yet moved to be with her husband that she had loved so much? If she could afford the tickets to go there and visit why not just stay there?

Wasn't she having a problem with post partem depression after the baby was born? Did she want her husband to take the punishment for something she did? Just one thought of many that has me questioning things.

J. J. in Phila

04-07-2008, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
But the murder charges were still in effect and it was after his disappearance that they were changed.

If the case was being present in 1/06, how soon would it have happened if RG had not have disappeared? Maybe not during his yearly vacation, but before 1/06 surely?

It doesn't appear so. Spotts said that the conference where RFG said, "I won't be here," was a murder case. The only murder case in Centre County that I'm aware of at the time was Vargas. It looks like it would be scheduled after October, at the earliest. It really seems that, after 3/15/05, it was unlikely to be held in 2005.

As for Mullenax, she has a job here, teaching, and Vargas is basically a tour guide in Costa Rica. Money might be a factor.

Wasn't she having a problem with post partem depression after the baby was born? Did she want her husband to take the punishment for something she did?

I don't recall a depression issue with her being mentioned.

The real problem is proving if a crime took place. The baby:

1. Did have a Vitamin K deficiency, which could cause the symptoms.

2. Had some liver problems, which could cause the symptoms.

3. Got worse when he was out of the care of the parents.

The hospital had a similar case, unrelated to the Vargas case, which seems to have been a Vitamin K deficiency problem.

The two prosecution doctors disagreed on if the baby had head trauma.

It's not a strong case against anybody.

It's not RFG's fault either if the evidence is so bad.

Serendipitous1

04-07-2008, 11:41 PM

Perhaps J.J. could persuade the Centre County Prothonotary to post a more 'accurate' description of the events in this case. I, for one, am still hung up on the scheduled jury selection (pre-disappearance), which was at some point 'continued'. MOO

J. J. in Phila

04-08-2008, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

IIRC, the judge offered only one time slot for the trial, RG's vacation time. Saying he wouldn't be there, ummmm......how odd is that, considering he wouldn't be there as a result of being off on vacation? Not odd at all, IMO. What IS odd is that the judge said he had ONE time slot only and that just happened to be the week of RG's vacation.

Neither statement is necessarily odd. I'm sure that you are aware that court cases take time, and the delays to that point were from the defense.

It was probably the next slot open.

It may not have been odd for RFG to make the statement either, if he was referring to his vacation.

As far as the couple not being together, the excuses are just that, excuses, IMO.

Financial necessity can make people separate. I believe it was reported that he was back at his old job in Costa Rica.

The evidence was not bad, JJ. Since RG did not have the opportunity to prosecute, we will never know what would have happened if he had. One thing we can be certain of, RG would have presented evidence of other tests ( I am sure you know there are others) that tell a much more concise story of exactly when, where, and who as opposed to the lack of any argument, but instead a plea bargain from Marshall. There were huge differences in health factors between the Glick case and this one.

Yes, the baby in this one had more documented health problems. The Vitamin K test was from the hospital; the outside pathologist's report was, IIRC, introduced by RFG at one of the preliminary hearings.

It wasn't an "argument." The prosecution got to put the evidence they had before the judge (Brown?). The judge look at it and said, in effect, **Even if you can prove everything you say, it still isn't first degree murder.** According to PE, JKA was opposed to seeking the penalty for first degree murder as well; she might have been eying lesser charges and, according to PE, JKA was the one who screened the evidence.

Then, Hehmeyer and Decaro went to the state board, and ask them to examine the evidence; the state board was established to help prosecute child abuse cases, so it wasn't overly friendly. That record is still sealed, but the day after, the DA's office began to talk about deals. Part of the agreement is that those records will remain sealed.

So, now, you have the two key prosecution experts disagreeing with each other. Probably the state body that helps with these cases saying it wasn't child abuse, or that the prosecution evidence was bad. On top of that, the defense has two stellar expert witnesses, one who generally testifies for the prosecution, and wrote a textbook on the subject, saying it wasn't child abuse.

It was a very week case.

If anyone, in a court of law, had anything to gain from the disappearance of RG, it was those involved in this case. It was a strong case and no one will ever convince me justice was served.

You, or I, really don't count. The judge and the attorneys do, and we know what they did and when the started. Justice is served, in our system, only if a crime can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It looks like the was more than a reasonable doubt.

As for the last question, irrelevant, but it would be double jeopardy. If RFG's disappearance was a criminal act, the actor could be charged with that. BTW, the person to handle the case, by RFG, was Marshall, the same person who handled it after he disappeared.

gstickley

04-08-2008, 12:07 AM

This is one of Logicworks' posts from 2005 . . . According to Marshall, the investigations 'took a different path' after RG disappeared.

(snip)
Seven months after RG's disappearance.......

November 23, 2005

BELLEFONTE -- A man who has been in prison since his August 2003 arrest on charges he killed his infant son was freed Tuesday night after he pleaded no contest to a charge of involuntary manslaughter.

Alejandro Mendez Vargas, 31, was sentenced by President Judge Charles C. Brown Jr. to serve between one year, less one day, and two years, less one day, to be followed by 24 months of probation. Vargas was given credit for the time he's already served in prison and was freed to serve the remaining 19 months of probation.

As part of his sentence, Vargas will also not be allowed to be the sole caretaker or supervisor of any child, Brown said. The reason for the "less one day" language was to keep the sentence within guidelines for a county jail sentence, so he'll be able to serve his probation under the county's supervision.

Judge Brown dismissed the first-degree murder charge last month because he didn't THINK prosecutors could show that Vargas acted with the specific intent to kill or that the killing was done with premeditation. Both of those are necessary to convict someone of the charge. After Vargas' plea Tuesday, a third-degree murder charge was essentially dismissed.

Marshall, in a statement to the press after the sentencing, said the sentence may seem STRANGE but that investigations in the past six months brought the case down a different path than originally envisioned by prosecutors. "Reviewing all the evidence ... this is where the facts led us," he said of the plea. "If Mr. Vargas had not spent one day in jail, we would have asked for two to four years. He's already served the amount of time we would have asked for."

Sooooo, the judge NOW states it can't be proven, but with RG it could? NO change in evidence. More than STRANGE.
JMO

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10-26-2006 06:04 AM

Cloudbuster

04-08-2008, 12:19 AM

Marshall, in a statement to the press after the sentencing, said the sentence may seem STRANGE but that investigations in the past six months brought the case ((((down a different path than originally envisioned by prosecutors.))) "Reviewing all the evidence ... this is where the facts led us," he said of the plea. "If Mr. Vargas had not spent one day in jail, we would have asked for two to four years. He's already served the amount of time we would have asked for."

The sentence sounds strange Mr marshall because it is strange! Ray disappears so the case takes a different path??? I will ask this again that if Ray had the evidence to continue how much MONEY would a death penalty case cost the state or county??? Even life in prision seems costly but a deathy penalty case??
How many times has Ray Gricar pursued a deathy Penalty case with sucess??? Im curious?
Could someone be upset because they knew Ray was retiring and would not be able to finish the case and they got ticked about the money to pursue such a case? Did Ray have more evidence perhaps on his laptop? Or was Ray being preasurred to back off this case and he kept this stuff on his laptop? JJ do the comissioners have to use some funds toward a death penalty case at all? Is that what Ray went to the prision board meeting for to discuss this stuff after the meeting off record? Curious who all attended the PBM??

Cloudbuster

04-08-2008, 12:45 AM

HOW MUCH DOES THE DEATH PENALTY COST?
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/COcosttestimony.pdf.

Now would the state be upset with Ray about pursuing this case???

J. J. in Phila

04-08-2008, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
HOW MUCH DOES THE DEATH PENALTY COST?
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/COcosttestimony.pdf.

Now would the state be upset with Ray about pursuing this case??? [/*]

I seriously doubt the state would; the only things I could find is there are remarkably few executions in PA (an older source said 3). Phila is responsible for half the death penalty convictions; Pittsburgh about 11%.

Serendipitous1

04-08-2008, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I seriously doubt the state would; the only things I could find is there are remarkably few executions in PA (an older source said 3). Phila is responsible for half the death penalty convictions; Pittsburgh about 11%. There are few exections ONLY because of the succession of 'pandyass' governors we have labored under. And in regard to the RG case, while they all trip over themselves to 'look' like they are doing right, I have found no one in Pennsylvania government who actually gives a rat's *** what happened to RG. MOO

Serendipitous1

04-08-2008, 01:20 AM

And the PDAA, which could (and should) have been at the forefront of the clamor, is just a limp-dicked organization of DA want-a-bees. There is not a member there worthy of 'spiking the ball' JMOO

sherrijean981

04-08-2008, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I don't recall a depression issue with her being mentioned.
[/*]

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20071028_What_Killed_Baby_Lucas__The_law_said_he_d ied_of_abuse__Medical_science_wasnt_so_sure_.html

Quote:
"But childbirth was hard on Lisa. It was a natural delivery, and Lucas weighed 91/2 pounds. She had needed a blood transfusion.

She was slow to warm to motherhood. But Alejandro plunged right in, having taken care of a daughter from a previous marriage. Every night, he woke up with Lisa at feeding time to change the diaper and rock the baby back to sleep. At dinner, he couldn't bring himself to put Lucas down; he didn't want him to cry."
Quote

I guess this was where I thought she might have had some type of post partum depression, where she was slow to warm to motherhood. But he took right too it.

And her statement her where she was upset he didn't want to stay and fight:

Quote
"Alejandro does not regret taking the deal.

"I didn't do anything," he said, sitting in his parents' living room, a photo of Lucas on top of the TV. And if he had been found guilty, he added, "I would never see the light for a long, long time."

Lisa can't fault him for wanting to be free. ((((((((But part of her wishes he had taken his chances with a jury.

"What it ended up doing was ultimately making me have - it's awful to say - a little bit less respect for him for selling himself short," she said.))))))))"
Quote

I'm sorry but I would be so glad my guy were out, knowing he had been innocent and only had to do county time. Some people spend longer than that in jail waiting for their hearing.

I am wondering if her not going to live with him after all this time is not because of her not having respect for him anymore. If she had the money to visit, why not just stay?

And JJ, it wouldn't matter to me what he did for a living. If I loved him I would have been with him, not just on a visit.

J. J. in Phila

04-08-2008, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I'm sorry but I would be so glad my guy were out, knowing he had been innocent and only had to do county time. Some people spend longer than that in jail waiting for their hearing.

I am wondering if her not going to live with him after all this time is not because of her not having respect for him anymore. If she had the money to visit, why not just stay?

And JJ, it wouldn't matter to me what he did for a living. If I loved him I would have been with him, not just on a visit. [/*]

This was two years (and two years of defense delays), but I can somewhat understand both perspectives.

It's not so much what he does for a living, but if they can afford a trip. The had to declare indigent status during the preliminary hearing process. They may simply not be able to afford it.

Also losing a child, even in clearly non-criminal circumstances, can strain a relationship, even an adult child.

sherrijean981

04-08-2008, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

This was two years (and two years of defense delays), but I can somewhat understand both perspectives.

It's not so much what he does for a living, but if they can afford a trip. The had to declare indigent status during the preliminary hearing process. They may simply not be able to afford it.

Also losing a child, even in clearly non-criminal circumstances, can strain a relationship, even an adult child. [/*]

Oh I know how losing a child can strain a relationship. I saw it when my 7 week old grandchild passed away, and his parents faced the hardest days of their lives. They lasted 10 years and then broke up but not due to his death.

I don't know if it was in that article or not, but one article at least, mentioned her making a couple trips to see him.

I know what I think the reason is she hasn't moved there. But then that is JMO.

Two years and there should have been money, if she had not just taken trips down. One trip and you are there to stay. But if she lost respect for him, is the time away going to build it back up? I don't think so. Again JMO

sherrijean981

04-12-2008, 02:38 AM

There has been so much talk of bringing in a Grand Jury on RG's case, I never really thought of who brought the Grand Jury in.
I had read of one such Grand Jury involving a couple brothers from eastern part of PA, but I believe it was brought in by the AG.

I found an article while researching a different man and found it interesting. It is called the Centre County Grand Jury and at one time was 3 County Commissioners, both founders of Bellefonte and half the licensed inn keepers of the county on the jury.

http://www.co.centre.pa.us/sketches/s12.asp
This is only part of the article.
Quote:

"12. Keeping Pace in Government and Education
Municipal government has run with the times.
The first grand jury in 1801 contained all three commissioners, both founders of Bellefonte, and half the licensed innkeepers in the county. William Connelly, constable of Upper Bald Eagle (Spring) township, was cited for contempt by the grand jurors. He detained them too long a time. Road petitions were the court's chief business.

The county's most visible elected officer for its first 50 years was the high sheriff. Early anecdotes suggest that the sheriff acted on behalf of the gentry to hold the working class in check. "

J. J. in Phila

04-12-2008, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Investigations into adult missing person cases are given little time or effort. Cases involving the most vulnerable are fully investigated, while any adult who is not vulnerable is considered 'possible walkaway' regardless of whether it is said the person would never do so or not. Those who have walked away usually have something in their history, that sticks out like a 'sore thumb' such as being behind thousands in support payments, owing big loans, thus offering at least a possible motive for voluntary disappearance.

I would first of all question if this was strongly considered "possible walkaway," at first, though possibly a "voluntary act," was the first thought. Why? There was no evidence coercion.

In general, the reason why missing adults are treated differently are twofold. First, competent adults usually make better decisions than children. Second, children generally don't have the resources to voluntarily walk away; if a child leaves voluntarily, somebody helped them. It should be too surprising and it is reasonable.

J. J. in Phila

04-13-2008, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

If it wasn't 'strongly' considered 'possible walkaway', short-term or long-term, then who exactly is the statement, 'we will wait as long as we need to' being directed to?

Hint: It wasn't LE, who had already searched the river.

They certainly aren't words that would be directed to someone who had committed suicide.

Those words are not from LE. A couple of people close to RFG, at least at some point, said things that indicated something other than suicide or murder. Wishful thinking, or something else. Personally, I think it's something else, relating to motivation. Motivation will not be the main factor, however.

It appears to have been done to give the appearance he walked away, had something 'hidden' on the laptop about where he was going, AND to show utter disdain at his job; need to destroy company equipment. It was DetZ's prime theory, as he smugly smiled and said 'blah, blah, blah' re: walk away, and what he might have hidden on his laptop that needed to be destroyed; 'blah, blah, blah, mystery woman'.

There is another reason to toss the laptop after removing the drive, to destroy the data. Why would someone, and that includes, but is not limited to RFG, want to destroy the data.

Serendipitous1

04-14-2008, 01:50 AM

The (spinoff) Land of Hatchy 'McClatchy'...explained:
http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=636505

Cinderella

04-14-2008, 01:54 AM

"Hatchy McLatchy" doesn't exist anymore instead we have rulers who tell us what to do. Tom Corbet, Michael Madeira to name a few.

tonyGricar

04-14-2008, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It might be better to say that was perceived as being pro-death penalty. [/*]I never got into the ideological discussions with him, but "pro" death-penalty he most definitely was not. The campus shooting incident (when my brother was a student there, btw) was a ready example of that. Death penalty specifications were not his favored cases.

J. J. in Phila

04-14-2008, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I never got into the ideological discussions with him, but "pro" death-penalty he most definitely was not. The campus shooting incident (when my brother was a student there, btw) was a ready example of that. Death penalty specifications were not his favored cases. [/*]

I used the word "perceived." He was willing to seek the death penalty, though obviously not in all cases where he could seek it (the video taped near beheading is another example).

For some people, just being willing to seek the death penalty, and not rejecting it in all cases, would make RFG "pro-death penalty." I don't share those views, but some people out there do have them.

Serendipitous1

04-21-2008, 06:14 PM

Not a lot of insight, and maybe it was already posted here, but..."Capital punishment: Law vs. morality debated" - with comments by RG:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1995/01/01-30-95tdc/01-30-95dnews-3.asp

Also included are comments from the Northampton County DA (and current Democratic candidate for AG) John Morganelli...which reminds me, to remind my fellow Pennsylvanians, to go vote tomorrow.

I used to poke fun at a friend in NH, where presidential hopefuls camp early and long. But after six weeks of the Clinton/Obama show in PA, I cannot wait for them to leave...should open things up for the (anticipated) Corbett/Morganelli war. MOO

Serendipitous1

04-21-2008, 07:07 PM

Has anyone else been following the exploits of Corbett and Marsico lately, in regard to the gambling fiasco, etc? Interesting stuff...hard to know yet where it will go/end.

Pennsylvania attorney general investigating casino owner
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08102/872335-85.stm

Subpoenas issued into donations from Pocono casino boss
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleyindependent/news/s_563312.html

Another grand jury will convene in Dauphin County
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2008/04/dauphin_county_to_convene_anot.html

Interesting quote in the second article: "Pennsylvania election law prohibits anyone from distributing contributions received from someone else." I guess I just do not understand the 'trickle-down' aspects...from contributors (including DeNaples) to 'Friends of Tom Corbett'...from 'Friends of Tom Corbett' to 'Madeira for DA'...that kinda thing. MOO

And I guess I also do not understand TC now investigating DeNaples' donations (since he is one of the benefactors of that generosity), particularly when, for some unknown reason, it fell on a county DA (Marsico) to blow the lid off the gaming board's 'box of horrors'. MOO

Not saying there is any connection to RG's disappearance...or anything else untoward. Just interesting (2005) stuff...hard to know yet where it will go/end. MOO

Serendipitous1

04-21-2008, 07:44 PM

"State Rep. Harold James, D-Philadelphia, chairman of the Gaming Oversight Committee, said he and his researchers are gathering information. He expects that committee to hold hearings."
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2008/04/dauphin_county_to_convene_anot.html

That would be the same Rep. James, a retired police officer ( http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/house_bio.cfm?id=149 ), who spearheaded a House Resolution (HR 491) entitled: A Resolution designating the week of October 29 through November 4, 2005, as “Missing Persons Awareness Week” in Pennsylvania (bet most people, outside of the 'House', did not even know it happened...I know I did not). James offered the following from the floor:

"Natalee Holloway, Jennifer Wilbanks, Laci Peterson, Lori Hacking, Elizabeth Smart, and most recently, Taylor Behl, are all tragic cases of missing persons, cases from across the country, cases that we have all heard of. Tracey Leigh Testo, missing since March 2005, from Baltimore, Maryland; Cindy Song, missing on this date since 2001 from State College, Pennsylvania; Danielle Imbo, missing February 2005 from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania – names that are not so familiar but equally tragic.

You may remember Latoyia Figueroa, one of the most tragic, unusual missing-persons stories involving a minority victim that made the national headlines, but there was considerably less coverage for Taneke Daniels, because she, unfortunately, went missing while the nation was still engrossed in the fallout of the “runaway bride.” Taneke Daniels resided in the district of Representative Babette Josephs, while her family lives in my district, and together we are trying to increase the reward money to get information to learn of her whereabouts.

Thousands go missing every year; only a few make headlines, and I do not want to belittle any missing-person case because they are all important, but I do want to draw attention to the discrepancies in who receives national media. Race, class, gender all play a role. By not giving each case maximum attention is to demean the value of those that are not given media coverage. The media is misleading about the typical victim because more than half of the people in the FBI’s missing-persons database are men and a disproportionate amount are minorities.

I am sure we all heard of Ray Gricar, the Centre County D.A. who vanished without a trace from Bellefonte, Pennsylvania, in April, but we have not seen that investigation on CNN or Fox News every day since.

Mr. Speaker, I stand in this chamber today to ask each of you to join me in my effort to bring attention to the seriousness and the regularity of this issue. When missing-persons cases are not made known to the public, it hampers the public’s ability to assist law enforcement in offering tips or even being supportive to the friends and family of these victims.

City Councilman Juan Ramos introduced a proposal to make October 29 through November 4 “Missing Persons Awareness Week” in Philadelphia,” and I am asking you to please join me in designating this week as “Missing Persons Awareness Week” throughout the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and I have had more than 60 members ask to be cosponsors on this HR 491. I will now ask for your affirmative vote. Thank you."

The Chair wishes to advise the members that he has given permission to Scott Wilson of WGAL to videotape with audio. On the question recurring, Will the House adopt the resolution? The following roll call was recorded: YEAS–194, NAYS–0, NOT VOTING–0, EXCUSED–9. The majority having voted in the affirmative, the question was determined in the affirmative and the resolution was adopted.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/HJ/2005/0/20051031.pdf

Serendipitous1

04-21-2008, 08:08 PM

"State police at Rockview are looking for a woman who vanished from her Centre Hall home Sunday evening and has not been seen since." Also: "State police at Rockview are investigating the death of a male whose body was discovered at 6:25 p.m. Sunday in a wooded area off of Eagleville Road in Liberty Township."

Normally I would provide a link. But the CDT is periodically inaccessible to me (the login crap), so I had to find a 'back door'...and I am not giving 'it' up just now.

Tree_of_Life

04-21-2008, 08:30 PM

Here is the link ;)

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/538307.html

Serendipitous1

04-21-2008, 08:34 PM

The CDT reports that Penn State's Blue/White game attracted 73,000 fans on Saturday. Guess JoePa did not get enough porta-poties lined up back into town though...cuz "34 people were cited by State College police for public urination. -- 31 people, including nine women, were cited by Penn State police for urinating in public." Ah-h-h...Penn State in the Spring time! Makes me want to 'go' out back right now. No link (ibid.).

J. J. in Phila

04-21-2008, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Not a lot of insight, and maybe it was already posted here, but..."Capital punishment: Law vs. morality debated" - with comments by RG:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1995/01/01-30-95tdc/01-30-95dnews-3.asp

Also included are comments from the Northampton County DA (and current Democratic candidate for AG) John Morganelli...which reminds me, to remind my fellow Pennsylvanians, to go vote tomorrow.

I had seen that one, and also found this from an anti-death penalty site:

"Gricar is a staunch supporter of executions in Pennsylvania."

http://www.cuadp.org/natgovassocmeet.html

I would not make the characterization "stanch" to describe RFG's views on the death penalty, but it does indicate that some people thought RFG supported the death penalty, perhaps strongly.

Serendipitous1

04-21-2008, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snip>
I would not make the characterization "stanch" to describe RFG's views on the death penalty, but it does indicate that some people thought RFG supported the death penalty, perhaps strongly. Both references are probably immaterial to the DP case RG was then working on. At the time, it mattered only that RG had filed his intention to seek the DP, in a case where many, many people apparently viewed it (the prosecution...and especially the DP notice) as being a total miscarriage of justice. My question remains, Did anyone in the DA's office let it be known, however innocently, that, but for RG, the DP would go away in that case?

That type of breach seems necessary (as a possible explanation for RG's disappearance), because without it (short of a mindless, vindictive act), it could not be certain that removing RG would be effective. We have been informed (through lustorumanimae) that KA was supposedly 'on board' with the DP in this case. I do not know if that is true...and it would still leave the mindsets of others in the DA's office (particularly LM) unaccounted for. MOO

day2day

04-21-2008, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Tree_of_Life
Here is the link ;)

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/538307.html [/*]

Thanks for the link..everytime i click a link to the cdt it shuts my browser down :(....torture I tellya!

tonyGricar

04-22-2008, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I had seen that one, and also found this from an anti-death penalty site:
"Gricar is a staunch supporter of executions in Pennsylvania."
[/*]That is the single biggest load of propaganda re: Ray that I've ever read (over the years, I've seen a few). In no way was he a death penalty advocate, let alone "stanch". Anyone who knows him, or was in the legal arena in that area, knows that he struggled with cases, and iirc I believe on occassion would go 2nd chair on death penalty specification cases. Maybe it was the Catholic upbringing.

The pressure of the '96 Sampson murder case was evident of that:

"After looking at the 17 aggravating circumstances, which include contract killing, killing of a child under a certain age, killing of bystanders and killing a police officer on duty, Gricar said none of those criteria apply to this case.

"If convicted of first-degree murder, the penalty would be life in prison without parole," he said, adding that his view of the death penalty plays no factor in this case - it is a legal decision. "

J. J. in Phila

04-22-2008, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
That is the single biggest load of propaganda re: Ray that I've ever read (over the years, I've seen a few). In no way was he a death penalty advocate, let alone "stanch". Anyone who knows him, or was in the legal arena in that area, knows that he struggled with cases, and iirc I believe on occassion would go 2nd chair on death penalty specification cases. Maybe it was the Catholic upbringing.
[/*]

TG, that really doesn't change the perception that some people had that RFG was a "staunch supporter" of the death penalty. I don't happen to be one of those people, but I cannot deny that this perception was there, in those people's minds.

RFG certainly did consider it an option in some (and I would say "legally appropriate") situations. The question isn't if he struggled with these cases but if, after that struggle, he would in fact ask for the death penalty to be inflicted; the answer is, yes. That does not imply that RFG acted improperly in doing so, only that he was willing to apply the law in that regard.

In the Grove case, he said that "none of those criteria apply" to make the case eligible for death penalty. That is far different than RFG saying, "I don't support asking for the death penalty."

I can see someone deciding that to prevent RFG from asking, or punish RFG for asking, for the death penalty, that RFG should be murdered. It is a possible motive.

Serendipitous1

04-22-2008, 09:32 AM

More computer woes in the land of Hatchy McClatchy? The CDT seems to have lost last week's online anniversary article.

sherrijean981

04-22-2008, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
More computer woes in the land of Hatchy McClatchy? The CDT seems to have lost last week's online anniversary article. [/*]

They have changed the front page and moved some things. Pete Bosaks Q&A is working now, I was able to post a question.

sherrijean981

04-22-2008, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

It's election day, and the case of the missing DA in Centre County must not be seen, read, heard, or mouthed. After all, it could change one's decision about voting for those who won't 'make a difference'.
Change.......let it begin today!
JMO [/*]

Wish I lived in Centre County again that I could also pick and choose on your forms. I don't know what my votes today in Mifflin County will do to help. Is Tom Corbett's job up too? I thought I saw there was someone running against him.

Other than Ray's case, I feel he has done a good job with all the drug busts going on, starting to get a grip on the wasteful spending in the government jobs, but he really needs to do something about John Murtha. I just don't know how that guy get away with most of the things he pulls. :shrug:

Serendipitous1

04-22-2008, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by logicworks <Snip>
Did such an idea have to originate in the DA's office, considering the continuous 'uprisings' online early on directly pointing toward RG, as being the 'problem', the 'one' seeking the death penalty? MOO - Assuming foul play with a connection to the AVM case, it could have been just acting on a vindictive impulse. Or it could have been a planned act. But in that event, it seems to me there would have to have been someone at least intimating that, but for RG the DP (and maybe even the first-degree charge) would go away. Otherwise, despite a different DA, it could have remained a capital case, prosecuted with the same vigor...and the only predictable affect might have been to delay the trial, which was apparently not going to be scheduled before October anyway.

So why act out of either desperation or opportunity at that time? OOBrett suggested (and I agree) that some AVM supporters might not be capable of fully understanding the legal process. To that I would add the potentially threatening incident reported by KA, the departure of AVM's attorney, the lack of resources, the appointment of public defenders...the sinking feeling prompted by a defense then in (apparent) disarray.

I have my suspicion who might have, however unintentionally, planted the notion which could have precipitated the disappearance. But there are the other questions, including whether and why RG took his laptop along that day, what the purpose of his trip was (if not a leisurely drive), and how someone was able to get him away from his car (sans cell phone) and (presumably) Lewisburg.