Odds and Ends, Pt. I [Archive] - Page 2 - In Session Message Boards

J. J. in Phila

03-05-2008, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Three (3) years later, LE along with PB & the thousands of Centre Countians reading this message board on a regular basis, you'd think one of the LE people would have picked up on this & begun checking on the 25 "in crowd" people. Also, with the advent of the computerized age & in place in DMV's, you'd think the "car registration search" might have been conducted long ago. [/*]

"GStickley," you didn't pick up on it until CB answered my question correctly. :)

Yes, somebody should look at it. I've been harping on this point for long time, about 18 months. So far as can tell, no one has looked. That is why I've been screaming "MEANS!", at the top of lungs.

Because there can be a 6-8 week delay in the processing of a new registration, it is possible that RFG could have purchased a car on 4/15/05 and didn't get it processed until June of 2005. If LE checked in the first week, it might not have been processed even if it was registered to "R. Frank Gricar," at a PO box someplace. There is also a possibility of a straw purchase or that a car was purchased in a false name.

So far as I know, LE has not checked.

If you eliminate those, murder becomes much more likely.

gstickley

03-05-2008, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

"GStickley," you didn't pick up on it until CB answered my question correctly. :)

Yes, somebody should look at it. I've been harping on this point for long time, about 18 months. So far as can tell, no one has looked. That is why I've been screaming "MEANS!", at the top of lungs.

Because there can be a 6-8 week delay in the processing of a new registration, it is possible that RFG could have purchased a car on 4/15/05 and didn't get it processed until June of 2005. If LE checked in the first week, it might not have been processed even if it was registered to "R. Frank Gricar," at a PO box someplace. There is also a possibility of a straw purchase or that a car was purchased in a false name.

So far as I know, LE has not checked.

If you eliminate those, murder becomes much more likely. [/*]

Honey, I picked up on it way, way, way before today. I think it probably Nov./Dec. 2006 when I arrived on board. After posting a few comments about the "investigation" or lack thereof, I believe you criticized me as usual, saying that I "seemed to be more interested in the LE investigation than in finding RG" or something like that.

And, I'm very aware of a delay in the processing of new registration; however, here in the hills, it certainly doesn't take 6 to 8 weeks. Even if it takes that long in PA, one would think it would have been checked out long, long ago.

If LE is monitoring this board, why haven't they taken your advice & checked on it??? Oh, maybe they did & just didn't tell you. Or maybe they didn't think about it. Or maybe they don't read the board. Or maybe it might lead to a new theory.

As far as the "25 in-crowd" people: had the "25 in-crowd" people been interviewed immediately after the disappearance, which would have been a normal police procedure, you might know what the "25 in-crowd" people knew. Of course, that might "just lead to another theory", & I guess the "chief" didn't want "him" to do it, because it doesn't sound like it was ever done.

I've always been most interested in the "25 in-crowd people" (however, I didn't think there'd be 25, since poor RG only had 2 best friends). But I guess there would have been 25 people around altogether who should have been interviewed . . . interrogated . . . grilled . . . In fact, a couple "friends" with whom I've discussed this "investigation" feel the same . . . just can't understand why it wasn't done . . .

JMO

gstickley

03-05-2008, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You don't really need Charlie Manson.

You just need to check and see where about 25 people were. Smith, for example, was camping; LE can check with the couple he and his wife were with.

Car registrations involve a document search. Boring, pedantic research which might rule something out or help solve the case. [/*]

Do you have a link as to Smith's camping trip?

J. J. in Phila

03-05-2008, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Honey, I picked up on it way, way, way before today.

It's easy to say that after the fact, Sweetness. You didn't answer the question. You prattled on about spin, et c.

And, I'm very aware of a delay in the processing of new registration; however, here in the hills, it certainly doesn't take 6 to 8 weeks. Even if it takes that long in PA, one would think it would have been checked out long, long ago.

I bought a used car about a week before RFG disappeared; the paperwork was sent in about three days late. It took about 6-7 weeks to get into the system.

If LE is monitoring this board, why haven't they taken your advice & checked on it??? Oh, maybe they did & just didn't tell you.

Maybe, but I've tried several sources, and as of a few weeks ago, the answer was no.

As far as the "25 in-crowd" people: had the "25 in-crowd" people been interviewed immediately after the disappearance, which would have been a normal police procedure, you might know what the "25 in-crowd" people knew.

Interestingly, in the electronic age, it is still possible to check the activities of the "Inner Circle." I would say, check registrations first.

gstickley

03-05-2008, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It's easy to say that after the fact, Sweetness. You didn't answer the question. You prattled on about spin, et c.

I bought a used car about a week before RFG disappeared; the paperwork was sent in about three days late. It took about 6-7 weeks to get into the system.

Maybe, but I've tried several sources, and as of a few weeks ago, the answer was no.

Interestingly, in the electronic age, it is still possible to check the activities of the "Inner Circle." I would say, check registrations first. [/*]

Paragraph 1. Go back & check. I've been after LE long before you ever even questioned their actions. I had a back-up system to learn from. Did you?? And I hardly ever prattle. I *****, moan, groan,& complain, but I don't prattle.

Paragraph 2. Maybe you screwed up your application---and you were late. Maybe that's why it took so long. (Or maybe we're just more efficient here in the hills!)

Paragraph 3. Who are your sources? Did you ever consider the fact they might not be telling you anything/everything??

Paragraph 4. Do you not want the 25 "in-crowd" interviewed, interrogated, grilled immediately if not sooner? What makes "checking registrations" so much more important than checking out the "in-crowd"???

J. J. in Phila

03-05-2008, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Paragraph 1. Go back & check. I've been after LE long before you ever even questioned their actions. I had a back-up system to learn from. Did you?? And I hardly ever prattle. I *****, moan, groan,& complain, but I don't prattle.

Would you please cite the posts where you've suggested this?

Paragraph 2. Maybe you screwed up your application---and you were late. Maybe that's why it took so long. (Or maybe we're just more efficient here in the hills!)

No, I've had a renal take a month. I've also had this type of delay at another dealership; yes, I the dealership does it. Registration take that long in PA.

Paragraph 3. Who are your sources? Did you ever consider the fact they might not be telling you anything/everything??

Sub rosa, and I doubt it, though they might not be told everything.

Paragraph 4. Do you not want the 25 "in-crowd" interviewed, interrogated, grilled immediately if not sooner? What makes "checking registrations" so much more important than checking out the "in-crowd"???

Because it is more likely that, if RFG walked away, he did it without help; if he didn't get help, then there is no one to to make a mistake, or "mistakement." It's also a bit easier to do a document check, as a practical matter.

gstickley

03-05-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Would you please cite the posts where you've suggested this?

No, I've had a renal take a month. I've also had this type of delay at another dealership; yes, I the dealership does it. Registration take that long in PA.

Sub rosa, and I doubt it, though they might not be told everything.

Because it is more likely that, if RFG walked away, he did it without help; if he didn't get help, then there is no one to to make a mistake, or "mistakement." It's also a bit easier to do a document check, as a practical matter. [/*]

Paragraph 1. Here's the earliest post I could find; believe posts prior to this were removed:

gstickley
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 1052
LW, I agree with you 100%.

Just since I have been "on-board", it appears interest has waned considerably; no new posters, old posters gone, etc.

I had hopes that someone in the Bellefonte or nearby areas would have "made waves" a long time ago. I would have thought the courthouse employees with whom RG had a history, his family/extended family, close friends, SO, etc., would have raised such a ruckus that something would have been forthcoming. Since LE's investigation has stalled (hardly started), what is the problem with releasing information to the public; have they ever interviewed courthouse employees, etc. (Even Barney Fife would have thought that would be important whether RG ran away, committed suicide, was killed.) I would have thought LE would have enough self respect to at least act like their still on the case.

It appears that the local news media has some agenda other than RG's disappearance: hard to find anything about the case.
It appears from beginning until now that PB has given up: most of his answers are pro LE, many questions are never answered, etc., is he even checking out things these days??? Why are there no investigative reporters nosing around? Why haven't the persons who "saw" RG at the courthouse on Fri. PM clammoring about it?

I imagine Bellefonte is a lovely town, with nice people living there. However, this is beginning to feel like "The Stepford Wives". Everything is lovely, there's nothing to worry about, don't question anything, just be happy here in"Happy Valley"!!!!!

(I don't know which bothered me worse, The Stepford Wives or the JonBenet Ramsey case. But I have the feeling the Ray Gricar case is somewhere in that neighborhood.)
---
Paragraph 2. I don't know what a "renal" is, but I sure hate that it took a month.

:biggrin:

sherrijean981

03-05-2008, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Paragraph 1. Here's the earliest post I could find; believe posts prior to this were removed:

gstickley
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 1052
LW, I agree with you 100%.

Just since I have been "on-board", it appears interest has waned considerably; no new posters, old posters gone, etc.

I had hopes that someone in the Bellefonte or nearby areas would have "made waves" a long time ago. I would have thought the courthouse employees with whom RG had a history, his family/extended family, close friends, SO, etc., would have raised such a ruckus that something would have been forthcoming. Since LE's investigation has stalled (hardly started), what is the problem with releasing information to the public; have they ever interviewed courthouse employees, etc. (Even Barney Fife would have thought that would be important whether RG ran away, committed suicide, was killed.) I would have thought LE would have enough self respect to at least act like their still on the case.

It appears that the local news media has some agenda other than RG's disappearance: hard to find anything about the case.
It appears from beginning until now that PB has given up: most of his answers are pro LE, many questions are never answered, etc., is he even checking out things these days??? Why are there no investigative reporters nosing around? Why haven't the persons who "saw" RG at the courthouse on Fri. PM clammoring about it?

I imagine Bellefonte is a lovely town, with nice people living there. However, this is beginning to feel like "The Stepford Wives". Everything is lovely, there's nothing to worry about, don't question anything, just be happy here in"Happy Valley"!!!!!

(I don't know which bothered me worse, The Stepford Wives or the JonBenet Ramsey case. But I have the feeling the Ray Gricar case is somewhere in that neighborhood.)
---
Paragraph 2. I don't know what a "renal" is, but I sure hate that it took a month.

:biggrin: [/*]

I believe he meant "rental". :)

gstickley

03-05-2008, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I believe he meant "rental". :) [/*]

So do I. :biggrin:

gstickley

03-05-2008, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Paragraph 1. Here's the earliest post I could find; believe posts prior to this were removed:

[/*]

Ref. above quote, I didn't get the date picked up. It was 02/24/07.

J. J. in Phila

03-05-2008, 09:25 PM

Cinderella

03-05-2008, 10:17 PM

gstickley

03-05-2008, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Not a darn thing about looking at the possibilities of how RFG left Lewisburg. Whole bunch of complaining, but nothing suggesting anything. :rolleyes: [/*]

I never thought he walked away, but frankly there are numerous ways RG could have left if he did walk away. You questioned whether I ever questioned the investigation. (I did not know it was required that I submit "possibilities".) And, yep, I sure was complaining. Suggesting: well, if LE is monitoring this board, they've sure have gotten a lot of "suggesting" from me. My #1 complaint & suggestion throughout was that the "25 in-crowd", and everyone else included in the "out-crowd", at least be interviewed. I've never waivered from that.

J. J. in Phila

03-05-2008, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

I never thought he walked away, but frankly there are numerous ways RG could have left if he did walk away.

There are actually only two that are really likely. He got a car or someone, from the "Inner Circle," gave him a ride.

Could he have arranged this with a stranger? Sure. Would he have trusted a stranger (presumably paid in cash) to drive him out of Lewisburg, or by a car from him and keep his mouth shut afterward? Probably not.

He could have walked (and he did hike). Yes, but there would very probably be reports, people seeing a middle aged white man walking along the road. And would he have slept or eaten? It was a cold night.

That leave the possibilities that RFG got a car or someone he trusted a great deal, from the "Inner Circle," gave him a ride. As indicated, buying a car is a bit more likely and easier to check. So far as I know, LE has checked neither possibility.

You questioned whether I ever questioned the investigation. (I did not know it was required that I submit "possibilities".)

Wrong again; that wasn't the question I asked. It was this one:

Suppose that LE checks out the possibility that RFG purchased a car and the whereabouts of the Inner Circle and finds out that there wasn't an unaccounted car purchase and the Inner Circle wasn't involved? What would that mean?

CB got the answer on the first try.

Now, if LE checks and finds a way out of Lewisburg, we have an answer.

gstickley

03-05-2008, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

I certainly hope while LE is into checking out registrations, they check on the registration of the vehicle donated to the prison by PF sometime close to the end of 2005 and the vehicle mentioned in the Centre County Court hearing before Judge Brown which falls in the same time frame, with donation made week following hearing.

09/30/2005
Motion to Transfer Motor Vehicle Title

12/20/2005
Order Granting Motion to Transfer Motor Vehicle Title

JMO [/*]

Logicworks, can you print that in much larger letters so LE won't miss your "suggestion"?? (I'm not sure they ever followed up on my "suggestions". Maybe larger letters will get their attention better!!!) _

Cloudbuster

03-05-2008, 11:50 PM

If LE checks then we could go on to foul play if no car pans out. No why in heaven would they not check???? Why such a need to leave it just like it is??? I see:
struggling to maintain the case in Bellefonte dept.
No motive for doing that? Or is there?
No checking on a car to narrow this down?
No higher people pushing this?
What the hay is wrong here????
JMO

Cloudbuster

03-06-2008, 12:01 AM

Now this bugs me:
May 13, 2005
By Mike Joseph
Corbett says hope fading for Gricar
Attorney General Tom Corbett said Thursday he has CONCLUDED that, because Ray Gricar's keys have not been recovered, the missing Centre County district Attorney INTENDED to return to his car.

Im sorrry but if Tom CONCLUDED this then why no pushing the investagation????????????????????????????? Sorry Tom that's unheard of for a man in your position.
JMHO

J. J. in Phila

03-06-2008, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

Logicworks, can you print that in much larger letters so LE won't miss your "suggestion"?? (I'm not sure they ever followed up on my "suggestions". Maybe larger letters will get their attention better!!!) _ [/*]

Since RFG obviously didn't drive away in that car, it's not relevant to the question. Just more nonsense like, Tom Fornicola's non-existent warehouse.

J. J. in Phila

03-06-2008, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
If LE checks then we could go on to foul play if no car pans out. No why in heaven would they not check????

I have no idea. Because it takes some time to process a registration, the information wouldn't be immediately available, or if registered as temporary out of state, or, if done to a false ID, it might might not be detected for up to a year.

Cloudbuster

03-06-2008, 01:42 AM

Even if it takes a full year we at least almost 2 years ago been down to one scenario. They seem gun ho on leaving it at 3 scenario's even when they themselves know it can't really be a suicide without a body.
Where your real problem is THEM. They have failed miserably by not checkin out the car registration problem. WHY???

I really hate to say this but I will anyways: It's a cloud of layered onions!!! Either RG wasn't liked a whole lot and not much care went into him they are almost treating him like a lame criminal likenings, or their afraid of some domino affect if this breaks open? They have left that garlicky onion taste in the mouths of the public whom want to know what happened to the DA they loved!!! What are they really hiding? What's a matter is that domino going to go all the way to the king and all his horse men?

What's a matter no more pull for gains going to happen? Is a lot of people going to fall off humpty dumty's wall?

Is the truth so ugly that the public couldn't fantom it?

Why have they cut and runned on the public?

ONE WORD: COWARD'sssssssss:cuss:

JMHO

J. J. in Phila

03-06-2008, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Even if it takes a full year we at least almost 2 years ago been down to one scenario. They seem gun ho on leaving it at 3 scenario's even when they themselves know it can't really be a suicide without a body.
Where your real problem is THEM. They have failed miserably by not checkin out the car registration problem. WHY???

CB, I have asked that question here since September or October 2006, and sent it off to PB (who did answer it terms of rentals). I am really hoping someone will check.

I'm sure that you can look at the posts of "GStickley" and LW and see how they have ignored the question, just within the last 48 hours. I think both registrations and the whereabouts of the "Inner Circle" on 4/13-4/16/05 should be looked at and probably will change my odds.

While I've no criticism of LE in the first 48-72 hours, I have been critical of the follow up.

sherrijean981

03-06-2008, 02:19 AM

Cloudbuster

03-06-2008, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

CB, I have asked that question here since September or October 2006, and sent it off to PB (who did answer it terms of rentals). I am really hoping someone will check.

I'm sure that you can look at the posts of "GStickley" and LW and see how they have ignored the question, just within the last 48 hours. I think both registrations and the whereabouts of the "Inner Circle" on 4/13-4/16/05 should be looked at and probably will change my odds.

While I've no criticism of LE in the first 48-72 hours, I have been critical of the follow up. [/*]

JJ you are right about checking that out, sensibly it must be done to move ahead if there really is a investagation???? Even the stall of doing such a minor act raises one's eyebrows. The reluctance to do so shows how much they are really doing zilch. No one is just going to go into the office and say ya he is here ect. The simple basics should have been done years ago. They seem like they are delibertly holding onto 3 theories so that HAPPY VALLEY stays just that "HAPPY VALLEY". Hmmm more like they can give the soft echos of Bellefonte Victorian style as in "hey we only lost our DA, nothing absured happened". Go figure!!!:cuss:

Cinderella

03-06-2008, 04:24 AM

You think that you are upset, trying being a citizen of this county. What a sham.

tonyGricar

03-06-2008, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
She was in charge of what went out nationally.

It is obvious who was in charge of public relations in this case.
Just another ring in the three-ring circus.
JMO [/*]This is one of those seriously amusing moments I see so often on the board. You couldn't be more wrong than the max 180 degrees. Ask anyone who knows me...

tonyGricar

03-06-2008, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
I asked this question before but no answer, so asking again......
who ordered/purchased the vanity plate? Somehow, I can't imagine RG coming up with that idea.[/*]Then he must have told me, with great joy, a story contrary to your assumption.

tonyGricar

03-06-2008, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Taken from the JKA article:

The first is that when the car was purchased, which if I recall correctly was somewhere around Christmas of 2004 or early January of 2005, it was stated by Ray to the staff to have been a gift. His paramour had a small model of the car in her office and of course the vanity plate. [/*]No, she did not recall correctly, given that I drove it during mid-summer 2004.

(I thought elephant's had great memories?)

tonyGricar

03-06-2008, 04:51 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
Just wondering which came first.... the miniature Mini with vanity plate in the office or the actual Mini? If before purchase, how long before and was the vanity plate for the miniature Mini also said to be his choice?
JMO [/*]I believe what KA was trying to convey was the following:

"His paramour had a small model of the car in her office and of course <there was also> the vanity plate <on the big Mini>."

tonyGricar

03-06-2008, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
At one time there was mention he did not think his brother commited suicide (sorry TG), and had been investigating it. Does anyone remember it being said and when?

I was reading the obituaries a couple months ago and found out a man lived in Centre Hall that had worked at the same place RG's brother had worked. I don't remember his name or the date, but his obit mentioned his work history. [/*]No need to apologize. Rumors perpetuated bother me, reality does not.

I don't recall where the rumor of Ray investigating my Father's suicide began, but I'll address it again. To my knowldege, no source has ever been cited. For Ray to investigate Roy's death, the simple reality is that he would have had to go through me. I worked with Roy during the last stretch of his career, and I have/had all of his files. The only file, to my knowledge, Ray had of my Father's is one we had in common, that being his autopsy report. He received his copy the same time I did, which was as soon at it was available. It was clear cut.

Re: the gentleman who apparently worked at WPAFB, there were in the ballpark of 25k gov and civilians there as I recall. Most officers (and many enlistees) eventually pass through the gates, given it's relevance.

tonyGricar

03-06-2008, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
And while we're at it. You keep mentioning KA & Lustor in the same sentence,apparently so anyone reading the board will be convinced they are one & the same; it's been thrown about on the board so many times it's quite sickening, at least to me. [/*]I know who you are, so I back you on that (FWeverIW).

The reason temperatures run high has to do with PE/Lustor's conduct here. I believe this was before your arrival, and unless you've received archives from others, the posts were gone by then (I have all of them). For those of us who sat through them, and then the subsequent hypocrisy of the "manifesto", feelings can run deep. Case in point is fingering various people as part of some conspiracy, whilst conveniently leaving out 2 (1) major player in such a thing. That section, for many reasons, will always be the defining part of her shamockery (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shamockery) (save you some trouble. :) ) as it related to any banner which we could carry. For various reasons, I'm at the head of the class on that animosity. I recognize that you struggle with understanding how it was received, versus your view that she did right, but there's more to her story than I'll comment on. Basically, it's one of those old "ya had to be there" things.

Dead horse? Yeah, we've sooo beatin' it...

tonyGricar

03-06-2008, 05:36 AM

Shout off-board if anyone needs anything. We've hit that cyclical time again...

gstickley

03-06-2008, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I know who you are, so I back you on that (FWeverIW).

The reason temperatures run high has to do with PE/Lustor's conduct here. I believe this was before your arrival, and unless you've received archives from others, the posts were gone by then (I have all of them). For those of us who sat through them, and then the subsequent hypocrisy of the "manifesto", feelings can run deep. Case in point is fingering various people as part of some conspiracy, whilst conveniently leaving out 2 (1) major player in such a thing. That section, for many reasons, will always be the defining part of her shamockery (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shamockery) (save you some trouble. :) ) as it related to any banner which we could carry. For various reasons, I'm at the head of the class on that animosity. I recognize that you struggle with understanding how it was received, versus your view that she did right, but there's more to her story than I'll comment on. Basically, it's one of those old "ya had to be there" things.

Dead horse? Yeah, we've sooo beatin' it... [/*]

Okay. But how does trashing KA help in solving the disappearance of your uncle?

sherrijean981

03-06-2008, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by sherryhefner

Sometimes, you guys talk in riddles and I get totally lost. [/*]

Don't feel bad, so do I and I have been here a while. I'm on every night, just nothing to contribute and have heard the same arguments, as TG said, on a "cyclical basis". But still laughing. :)

sherrijean981

03-06-2008, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

Okay. But how does trashing KA help in solving the disappearance of your uncle? [/*]

GS, you had to tell your kids to "turn your back on it", "walk away from it", "don't talk about others, it hurts their feelings", and my favorite, "if they are talking about that person they are leaving someone else alone".

Wonder who wants left alone?

J. J. in Phila

03-06-2008, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

JJ, have you posted this question to Pete Bosak to ask Det. Rickard? Or have you yourself called DR to ask him to check those records out? [/*]

SJ, I've posted a question regarding car registrations in the Fall of 2006. It is on the CDT Forum.

I have tried to raise it with as many of the principles (along with checking the "Inner Circle") as I contact with, those seeking contact with me.

If, after checking, it turns out these MEANS of getting out of Lewisburg were NOT used, the chances of walkaway drop (probably murder and suicide would be higher, with murder being the highest).

J. J. in Phila

03-06-2008, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

Do you have a link as to Smith's camping trip? [/*]

It's in JKA's Google pages; look it up.

I can give you an example, a very real one , of how JKA might have hindered this case.

In the Fall of 2006, I mentioned Mel Wiley, as, by JKA's pages, a list of voluntary walkaway cases. "Lustor" made a fuss about that case on the board. JKA's memory was jogged by the comment and spent 10 paragraphs discussing it, in July 2007, at least 8 months later. That raised a red flag with me.

We now find out (after I, and I'd guess a few others, asking questions about it) that RFG did discuss the case with Sloane. Now, maybe RFG's comment wasn't related to his disappearance, but maybe it was. In any event, by not stating it, she could have disclosed the information 8 months earlier and I would have been asking the question at least 8 months earlier.

To me, it seems unusual that she didn't speak to the family or the press, at least eight months earlier, or even give some hint on the board for LE to follow.

Her statement about the similarities of the Wiley case to RFG disappearance was quite wrong.

sherrijean981

03-06-2008, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

SJ, I've posted a question regarding car registrations in the Fall of 2006. It is on the CDT Forum.

I have tried to raise it with as many of the principles (along with checking the "Inner Circle") as I contact with, those seeking contact with me.

If, after checking, it turns out these MEANS of getting out of Lewisburg were NOT used, the chances of walkaway drop (probably murder and suicide would be higher, with murder being the highest). [/*]

Fall of 2006 Detective Rickard was not the lead detective. Pete Bosak was not getting answers on the case, no one was putting out news. We are now in 2008 with someone who is looking into the case. Already had some kind of story put out. Maybe a new call or question should be made?

ladyheartfixer

03-06-2008, 12:45 PM

ok...been sitting here playing catch up...what if RG did buy/rent.borrow a car to make his disappearance happen...could he have passed thru the courthouse parking lot (and inadvertently) been seen buy CF and the judge? Perhaps his pass thru was to let somesone know he had gotten the vehicle and was on his way "out of town"?

I guess what I am saying is that I still cling to the "walk away theory"...but the reason for the walk away still puzzles me...threats? coersion(sp)? reasons still unknown and perhaps kept that way?

J. J. in Phila

03-06-2008, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Fall of 2006 Detective Rickard was not the lead detective. Pete Bosak was not getting answers on the case, no one was putting out news. We are now in 2008 with someone who is looking into the case. Already had some kind of story put out. Maybe a new call or question should be made? [/*]

PB didn't get his information from MR; he got it from Sloane.

J. J. in Phila

03-06-2008, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
ok...been sitting here playing catch up...what if RG did buy/rent.borrow a car to make his disappearance happen...could he have passed thru the courthouse parking lot (and inadvertently) been seen buy CF and the judge? Perhaps his pass thru was to let somesone know he had gotten the vehicle and was on his way "out of town"?

You can strike out rent, unless someone else rented it for him.

I guess what I am saying is that I still cling to the "walk away theory"...but the reason for the walk away still puzzles me...threats? coersion(sp)? reasons still unknown and perhaps kept that way? [/*]

One possibility was a strong desire to do it. Walking away does have some romance to it; you get the thrill of being a fugitive without getting shot at (you just have to look at the old TV series The Fugitive and it's high finale ratings to see that). Some people do it for that reason.

Some of it might have been to prove to himself that he could do it. There doesn't have to be a threat or some sinister reason.

We do have other examples, Carsey and Wiley, who both seem to have done that.

ladyheartfixer

03-06-2008, 02:01 PM

that's me...the hopeless romantic...

J. J. in Phila

03-06-2008, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
that's me...the hopeless romantic... [/*]

I, unfortunately, need harder evidence. ;)

sherrijean981

03-06-2008, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

PB didn't get his information from MR; he got it from Sloane. [/*]

And how long was Sloane not answering questions? But Pete and MR did come forth with a new story last week. What else is going to be coming out in 2008? I liked the little bait piece but I want more. PB? MR?

Politigal

03-06-2008, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Shout off-board if anyone needs anything. We've hit that cyclical time again... [/*]

yep, and it's almost Friday....;)

J. J. in Phila

03-06-2008, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

And how long was Sloane not answering questions? [/*]

My guess would be about a nanosecond. :)

J. J. in Phila

03-07-2008, 12:35 AM

I just found something potentially interesting regarding JKA.

Apparently, she posted something similar to her Google pages, in April-May of 2006.

http://www.statecollege.com/townhall//viewtopic.php?p=22577&highlight=madeira#22577

The quotes look verbatim from part of her Google pages. Interestingly, I wasn't posting here at the time. :)

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I just found something potentially interesting regarding JKA. Apparently, she posted something similar to her Google pages, in April-May of 2006.
http://www.statecollege.com/townhall//viewtopic.php?p=22577&highlight=madeira#22577
The quotes look verbatim from part of her Google pages. Interestingly, I wasn't posting here at the time. :) The quotes were appended to the CDT Article "Gricar family, friends hold onto hope"...both posted on 4/15/06. JKA referred to that in her googlepages. Your link is actually one of Saunterer's posts, pirated from this forum. Can you guess who "abby's mom" and "Al" are...here?

J. J. in Phila

03-07-2008, 02:48 AM

Cloudbuster

03-07-2008, 02:50 AM

Cloudbuster

03-07-2008, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

:D~~~ [/*]
S1 you singled only 2 out why not the whole clan?

Cloudbuster

03-07-2008, 04:01 AM

Barebrick post on 6-13-2006
Thread
Philly Detective Frank P Geyer from Pennsylvania

Geyer--who called Holmes verily an artist in roguery--found the body of Howard Pitezel in Indianapolis, Indiana, where Holmes had strangled the Pitezel child, cut up his body, & burned the remains of the child in either a large stove or fireplace. Finding Howard should have ended the tragedy of what happened too to the Geyer clan.

There were illustrations of the house on Callowhill street, Indianapolis, Indiana. Holmes murdered the Pitezel girls where the truck was in Toronto, Canada. The fact is that one of the vaults was closed there in both Indianapolis & Toronto. There may, of course, have been more of the vaults in Chicago, Illinois. The cottage in Indianapolis where Howard Pitezel was murdered, as described only by Frank is, still, this day not too well understood if the reader is able to browse one of the letters from Alice to her parent. Geyer did indeed inspect letters from Alice as there were illustrations of the entire Pitezel clan in his book.

In warning about the floor plans written about in the Holmes-Pitezel Case a rudimentary understanding of trigonometry is required. This Holmes obviously was quite good at. The floor plans described by Frank are of truly quite an unspeakable, & possible unspoken, code. Detective Frank Geyer, in the Holmes- Pitezel Case, uses an unattributable quote to end one of his chapters. Frank says, That, like the sun, submits to be obscured but like the sun, only for a time.

According to Liz Spikol, the sun-even in the leafy repast of Holy Cross Cemetery-- always sets. But Liz Spikol was certainly just as good an author in which she described the crime reported by the Philadelphia Weekly. It does not take a god to like Detective Frank P. Geyer! It takes forgiveness. I did feel forgiven for a moment when I read his incredibly accomplished search for the missing Pitezel childern. It was that after his search Frank was mighty enough in publishing his very wn final work on criminal investagations. The Holmes-pitezel Case is obviously about Grand Larceny.

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I won't guess but where was the JKA quote from, Something posted here? IIRC, it was the thread starter for "DA's office breaks silence?", which went the way of Saunterer. The quote was from "Karen Arnold", posted in the comments section in connection with the anniversary article in the CDT. It took quite some time for PB (CDT Q&A) to even confirm it was "the" KA who posted it. Then last July, JKA referred to those comments in her googlepages. MOO

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
S1 you singled only 2 out why not the whole clan? Because "abby's mom" made the post and "Al" replied to it.

gstickley

03-07-2008, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
IIRC, it was the thread starter for "DA's office breaks silence?", which went the way of Saunterer. The quote was from "Karen Arnold", posted in the comments section in connection with the anniversary article in the CDT. It took quite some time for PB (CDT Q&A) to even confirm it was "the" KA who posted it. Then last July, JKA referred to those comments in her googlepages. MOO

Because "abby's mom" made the post and "Al" replied to it. [/*]

Been gone for a whole day, only to come back & see that nothing's changed. The 'merry-go-round' keeps spinning around. After the comments made from posters tired of the "KA" posts taking over the board, I thought maybe things would change. Nope. Here we are again!

Still don't understand why, even though TG gave a pretty good explanation. But I still don't understand why the mere mention of "KA" causes such bunched underwear. KA had nothing bad to say about RG or even PF, for that matter. There have been posters who've suspected PF (& been very vocal about it) from day 1 who are never questioned about their opinion; there are other posters who've suspected PF & are picked apart. Yet the mention, the sight of the name/initials "KA" seems to cause such consternation that post after post, day after day, continue. What does KA know????? Surely it can't be from all the reasons given thus far.

S1, you have my sincere admiration! If you can remember a post & thread from the days of Saunterer, you truly are amazin'. I don't remember Saunterer posting since I came on board or at least for not very long afterwards, which was 11/06. What a
memory you have!!

What was this board about??? Oh, yeah, Ray Gricar . . . who seems to be 'low man on the totem pole' in importance these days!

Cinderella

03-07-2008, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
The quotes were appended to the CDT Article "Gricar family, friends hold onto hope"...both posted on 4/15/06. JKA referred to that in her googlepages. Your link is actually one of Saunterer's posts, pirated from this forum. Can you guess who "abby's mom" and "Al" are...here? [/*]

S1, this must be the post that you are referring to. I didn't remember it. Then If KA was telling the truth, which I see no reason for her to lie, then Ray was in the office Thursday afternoon on April 14, 2005. When you get older your memory starts to fade. Nothing like someone posting this. Now we do have it on hardcopy. : ) Maybe the people from the Lion Board aren't riff raff after all. Thanks for finding the answer to my question as to who was in the office that Thursday afternoon.

abby's mom
Citizen

Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 653

Posted: 05/21/2006 11:42 pm Post subject: What Karen Arnold Supposedly Had to Say

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found the article of what Karen Arnold supposedly said when talking about Ray Gricar. I found this article on CourtTV's website.

Karen Arnold worked in the Centre County DA's office during most of Gricar's tenure. She ran for DA last year, losing in the election to Michael Madeira. In one of his first official duties in office, Madeira gave Ms. Arnold her "walking papers". Madeira has also asserted that LE has investigated every lead in the case of Gricar's disappearance.

On Saturday, April 15, the CDT posted a one-year anniversary article on the Gricar case ("Gricar family, friends hold on to hope").
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/cent...ar/14348034.htm

That same day and in response to the CDT article, a Karen Arnold posted comments contradicting the thoroughness of the investigation.
http://pod01.prospero.com/n/pfx/for...tag=kr-centretm

These comments cannot be verified as having come from the former assistant DA Karen Arnold, of course. Nonetheless, the comments are very intriguing IMO. The comments by this "Karen Arnold" (with emphasis added to some sections):

"Gricar was in the office for at least part of Thursday afternoon, 4/14. He attended the Prison Board meeting that morning. It was not typical for him to take off work on a whim, nor did he often take off at all, other than for planned vacations, trips or conferences. It was not typical for him to fail to appear for work without advising staff how he could be reached in an emergency. He was clearly upset and preoccupied about something during the week he disappeared.

This information was given to Ofc. Zaccagni on Saturday morning, 4/16, when he called me to say that Gricar was missing and asked if I had 'noticed anything unusual about Ray' during that week. His verbatim response to me was that he had already talked with other DA employees and that "everyone has been telling me the same thing". It is therefore disturbing to read repeated assertions by police that they are aware of nothing unusual other than possible fatigue.

County laptops are provided to enable work from home and communication when away from the office, not for personal at-home use. County personnel policies preclude such use. Immediately after Gricar's disappearance, all employees of the DA's Office were asked to search their work areas to try to locate Gricar's laptop within the DA's Office. Bellefonte PD was well-aware of the volatile nature of one of the parties to a then-pending Gricar prosecution - both from having been specifically given the information after his disappearance and from their own records of having sent officers to the offices of a local attorney who called the DA's office to express fear that that individual was intending to appear at his office with ill intent. Yet neither that case, nor any other, has apparently been reviewed.

Over 19 years I looked at many thousands of investigations - good, bad and indifferent. In none of them is there any precedent for the circular manner in which this investigation has been conducted. It is not good luck, but an investigation fully open to all possibilities and fully committed to finding the truth that is sorely needed. The campaign of spin, partial information and disinformation that has accompanied this circular investigation for a full year is deeply disturbing."

Cinderella

03-07-2008, 05:05 PM

Forgot to say, I also wonder if he had stubble on his face in the office becuase after that PF and him must have taken the walk in the park. It was mentioned that he had stubble on his face at that time? That is a question that we should ask Pete, whether anyone in the office that day saw stubble on Ray's face. ; )

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 05:43 PM

gstickley: MOO - Well, the bottom of the 'totem pole' has definitely been defaced with carvings and grafitti (some of it pretty ugly)...but I believe most people who come here (whether posters or lurkers) still recognize RG at the top. Neither the banter or belligerence has changed that.

Sad to say, I lean heavily on my 'library'...far too many brain cells lost to demon rum, to rely on memory alone...nothing amazing about it. Saunterer started the thread "Gricar's office breaks silence?" with KA's comments, on 4/17/06...which thread departed, along with Saunterer, on 9/22/06 (per my notes).

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella <Snip>
Thanks for finding the answer to my question as to who was in the office that Thursday afternoon. MOO - Other than KA, I still do not know who all was in the DA's office Thursday afternoon. You see...this is a perfect example of irritating inconsistencies (and in this case, it had nothing to do with journalists). In April '06, KA commented that "Gricar was in the office for at least part of Thursday afternoon, 4/14[/05]." That is a concise statement of (supposed) fact. And yet, in her googlepages 15 months later, all she offered was a forcefully closed door (a habit of RG's) to support what apparently was only her assumption that he was there.

J. J. in Phila

03-07-2008, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Still don't understand why, even though TG gave a pretty good explanation. But I still don't understand why the mere mention of "KA" causes such bunched underwear. KA had nothing bad to say about RG or even PF, for that matter. There have been posters who've suspected PF (& been very vocal about it) from day 1 who are never questioned about their opinion; there are other posters who've suspected PF & are picked apart. Yet the mention, the sight of the name/initials "KA" seems to cause such consternation that post after post, day after day, continue. What does KA know????? Surely it can't be from all the reasons given thus far.

Othere than the inconsistency noted (**RFG was there in the afternoon of 4/1**4 verses **I don't recall if I saw him on 4/14**), I think it is interesting about how her complains were the same, even though two posters she referred to were not on this board when she made her April 2006 statement.

You, IRRC, and some other posters, have noted PEF's "inconsistencies," only to stay silent when asked for these inconsistencies. We do have inconsistencies from JKA, just cited. That, from some close to RFG, is interesting (and she might have been "speaking loosely" as well.).

gstickley

03-07-2008, 07:01 PM

One would think that the mystery of all the monstrously 'inconsistent statements of KA' (???) could be solved by simply asking one of the other DA's who might have been working 04/14/05. Might even ask one of the clerical people who might have been working that day. Might even ask PF, who is the source of just about everything else relating to RG on 04/14-15/05. I guess no one noticed that the monstrously 'inconsistent statements of KA' were made many months/year after RG's disappearance; PF's 'inconsistent statements' were made within days/weeks of the disappearance.

Of course, one person reportedly did see RG: Ms. Fenton. But . . . she didn't fit the timeline. She even saw a car . . . but that didn't fit the timeline. Apparently, Ms. Fenton was not even questioned about the car in an attempt to find out what kind of car it might have been. (Here in the hills, LE would have at least questioned her about the car, attempted to get the make, model, by having her compare it to a car driven by someone she knew. Seriously doubt if they would have eliminated Ms. Fenton entirely.)

J. J. in Phila

03-07-2008, 07:37 PM

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
One would think that the mystery of all the monstrously 'inconsistent statements of KA' (???) could be solved by simply asking one of the other DA's who might have been working 04/14/05. Might even ask one of the clerical people who might have been working that day. Might even ask PF, who is the source of just about everything else relating to RG on 04/14-15/05. I guess no one noticed that the monstrously 'inconsistent statements of KA' were made many months/year after RG's disappearance; PF's 'inconsistent statements' were made within days/weeks of the disappearance.

Of course, one person reportedly did see RG: Ms. Fenton. But . . . she didn't fit the timeline. She even saw a car . . . but that didn't fit the timeline. Apparently, Ms. Fenton was not even questioned about the car in an attempt to find out what kind of car it might have been. (Here in the hills, LE would have at least questioned her about the car, attempted to get the make, model, by having her compare it to a car driven by someone she knew. Seriously doubt if they would have eliminated Ms. Fenton entirely.) I defy you, or anyone, to post "PF's 'inconsistent statements'"...even one. I have listened and looked for that, from the beginning. There are inconsistent news accounts...but I have yet to see inconsistent quotes/statements. This challenge has been laid down before. And, not surprisingly, it has gone unanswered. MOO. There...and I did not even mention KA..........oops.

Cinderella

03-07-2008, 08:10 PM

So Pete Bosak stated that Ray wasn't in the office on that Thursday afternoon, then KA states that he was, then KA states that he wasn't. Which came first the chicken or the egg.

S1, There are inconsistent statements of PF's about the moring of April 15, 2005. The only thing is that they were some of the first statements. The CDT makes you pay for them now.

I am trying to be fair here, with both PF and JKA.

It would be nice to get these confused issues cleared up.

Cinderella

03-07-2008, 08:19 PM

OK allow me to jog everyone's memories here.

PF took oragne juice to Ray.

Ray and PF did their morning routine.

Ray said that he was going to take a half day off and rolled over and went to sleep. PF wrote note and asked him to let her know if he went anyplace so she could leave the dog out.

Ray said that he was going to play hooky and take the day off and PF stated Good for you.

Statements were made that she also stated that he called her and told her that he would not make it back in time to leave the dog out. He told her what route he was on and said I love you.

Statements were made that he called her and told her that he was taking the rest of the day off and might not be home for supper.

Statements were made that she said that he called and asked about something to do with the household.

So these are just a few. What did she really tell LE. Who is getting the story mixed up?

Did TG or LE or PB call and ask the man that saw Ray April 15, 2005 at 7:30 am or are we going to disregard him because it isn't in the timeline?

Probably more sayings than that.

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella <Snip>
S1, There are inconsistent statements of PF's about the moring of April 15, 2005. The only thing is that they were some of the first statements. The CDT makes you pay for them now. I am trying to be fair here, with both PF and JKA. It would be nice to get these confused issues cleared up. To my knowledge (unlike KA), there were no inconsistent 'statements' made by PF...nada, zilch, zero...only inconsistent news accounts. It would be nice if the media were to be held as accountable as we are want to do with them and others. But that will never happen. I am just thankful that the 'Jimbo'-types slithered back into their holes long ago. MOO

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 08:54 PM

Even those who have not followed the exploits of the controversial CC Sheriff might find this amusing (welcome to county government, DZ):
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/452130.html

Cloudbuster

03-07-2008, 09:17 PM

Does anyone know anything about years ago a bullet being shot thru a centre county commisssioner meeting? It was also rumored that RG was planning to have someone indicted for it?

J. J. in Phila

03-07-2008, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Even those who have not followed the exploits of the controversial CC Sheriff might find this amusing (welcome to county government, DZ):
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/452130.html [/*]

I think that if Nau should disappear, she'd be in charge. :rolleyes:

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think that if Nau should disappear, she'd be in charge. :rolleyes: Even better for DZ...especially if Polly gets psychic visions while under the influence! . . .:cool:

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 09:50 PM

Oh well. As long as Nau's office is under the spotlight, at least 'one-term Mike' can have a moment's respite. Sloane for DA. Arnold for Sheriff. Anyone but Corbett for AG. Look out Pennsylvania...was that Hillary I saw? Is it 'open season' on Osama...I mean Obama? MO totallyscrewedup O

Cinderella

03-07-2008, 10:06 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, We must have at least 1 "inner circle" person here as S1 refers to DA, Michael Madeira as "Mike". Now I can see where he is coming from in regards to JKA.

Do we have any more "insiders" here except TG? J. J. how about you?

The name "Mike" reminds me of a "Mike" running into his house locking his door to call "Mike" to find out what to do after a "Mike" allegedly wrecked his vehicle due to DUI.

I think that the outcome was the "Mike" got off. I am not sure though. Wonder if I could get "Mike's" number in case I have a problem?

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella Ladies and Gentlemen, We must have at least 1 "inner circle" person here as S1 refers to DA, Michael Madeira as "Mike". Now I can see where he is coming from in regards to JKA.

Do we have any more "insiders" here except TG? J. J. how about you?

The name "Mike" reminds me of a "Mike" running into his house locking his door to call "Mike" to find out what to do after a "Mike" allegedly wrecked his vehicle due to DUI.

I think that the outcome was the "Mike" got off. I am not sure though. Wonder if I could get "Mike's" number in case I have a problem? http://www.co.centre.pa.us/phone/phone.asp

gstickley

03-07-2008, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Oh well. As long as Nau's office is under the spotlight, at least 'one-term Mike' can have a moment's respite. Sloane for DA. Arnold for Sheriff. Anyone but Corbett for AG. Look out Pennsylvania...was that Hillary I saw? Is it 'open season' on Osama...I mean Obama? MO totallyscrewedup O [/*]

Sloane for DA . . . & that would be an improvement over what you have now??? Wasn't Sloane the ADA who missed so much work due to sick leave? Wasn't Sloane the ADA who was just about to be in contempt of court for asking for a delay in a trial because of illness, then got caught at a political thingy?

But, ya know, S1, we may very agree on the rest of your "slate".

Serendipitous1

03-07-2008, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
Sloane for DA . . . & that would be an improvement over what you have now??? Wasn't Sloane the ADA who missed so much work due to sick leave? Wasn't Sloane the ADA who was just about to be in contempt of court for asking for a delay in a trial because of illness, then got caught at a political thingy?

But, ya know, S1, we may very agree on the rest of your "slate". And I am registered a Republican!! I always wondered why RG did not get SS to run, seeing how they were supposedly so sympatico. Maybe it was SS looking ahead to the judgeship thingy, or maybe it was the CC Rep. Committee 'big-sh_ts'. Anyway, look at what CC got...hence 'one-term Mike'. MOO

J. J. in Phila

03-07-2008, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Ladies and Gentlemen, We must have at least 1 "inner circle" person here as S1 refers to DA, Michael Madeira as "Mike". Now I can see where he is coming from in regards to JKA.

I think "one term Mike" is a nickname, like "Ike." I call the junior Senator from NY, "Hillary," on message boards, but I don't know her.

Cinderella

03-07-2008, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I think "one term Mike" is a nickname, like "Ike." I call the junior Senator from NY, "Hillary," on message boards, but I don't know her. [/*]

LOL, J. J. thank God that you are not in a bad mood tonight.

tonyGricar

03-08-2008, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
Okay. But how does trashing KA help in solving the disappearance of your uncle? [/*]Trashing? Not at all. Pointing out a certain level of hypocrisy isn't trashing. I view her as objectively as I do this case. I just have more to go on to formulate an educated opinion than you likely do, coupled with the familiarity of the various nuances as it pertains to the google piece she did. As I've said before, there are chunks of her writings that I agree with (or would have found useful 2 years prior) and that I completely disagree with. I'll just chalk it up to her Giant preOccupation...

tonyGricar

03-08-2008, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
Pete Bosak was not getting answers on the case, no one was putting out news. We are now in 2008 with someone who is looking into the case. Already had some kind of story put out. Maybe a new call or question should be made? [/*]I'm aware of 2 newspaper features currently being written on Ray's case.

tonyGricar

03-08-2008, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Your link is actually one of Saunterer's posts, pirated from this forum. Can you guess who "abby's mom" and "Al" are...here? [/*]Thanks for the laugh, Serendipitous1. I envision Saunterer, Billy, PE, and Lustor taking in the sunset on some island, kvetching about the case. Or not...

6 minutes to go on the Friday (although I wish my jetlag was aware it's almost midnight). Can I avoid clicking on the new thread? Gonna be tough... Without clicking, I already know there's nothing to support the title. Odds placed?

Politigal

03-08-2008, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I'm aware of 2 newspaper features currently being written on Ray's case. [/*]

You also recently mentioned that a TV piece might be in the works - didn't you?

tonyGricar

03-08-2008, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
Sloane for DA . . . & that would be an improvement over what you have now??? Wasn't Sloane the ADA who missed so much work due to sick leave? [/*]Good point. Almost getting killed in a car accident can be a real drag on the citizens... There's more to it than that, but I'd hate to see you completely swallow your foot.

tonyGricar

03-08-2008, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think "one term Mike" is a nickname, like "Ike." I call the junior Senator from NY, "Hillary," on message boards, but I don't know her. [/*]And if anyone knows him, it's definitely "Michael". I have to catch myself when I call him "Mike".

tonyGricar

03-08-2008, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

You also recently mentioned that a TV piece might be in the works - didn't you? [/*]Yes, but the producer seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. It was AMW.

Politigal

03-08-2008, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Yes, but the producer seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. It was AMW. [/*]

darn - that would have gotten a good number of viewers...

Politigal

03-08-2008, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Good point. Almost getting killed in a car accident can be a real drag on the citizens... There's more to it than that, but I'd hate to see you completely swallow your foot. [/*]

let's be fair now...

Sloane *did* actually have to go to court because of a case he wasn't able to continue due to his medical leave, but it was learned he was able to be out campaigning during that same time frame...

tonyGricar

03-08-2008, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
let's be fair now...

Sloane *did* actually have to go to court because of a case he wasn't able to continue due to his medical leave, but it was learned he was able to be out campaigning during that same time frame... [/*]Calling in all the time with a cold or flu is not acceptable and I'd be the first to agree. Like I said, there was more to it than that.

Serendipitous1

03-08-2008, 02:50 PM

I promised myself to lighten up on journalists in general, and PB in particular...so allow me to reframe your question. Does it seem logical that everyone in the media (let alone LE...and TG) would not have picked up on actual, significantly inconsistent statements?

Serendipitous1

03-08-2008, 03:17 PM

Yes, but you no doubt know that you are preaching to the choir here. MOO

Serendipitous1

03-08-2008, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar <Snip>
Thanks for the laugh, Serendipitous1. I envision Saunterer, Billy, PE, and Lustor taking in the sunset on some island, kvetching about the case. Or not...

6 minutes to go on the Friday (although I wish my jetlag was aware it's almost midnight). Lol...I guess we all have kvetched on one thing or another regarding this case. But I cannot imagine what that would sound like in third-person Latin!

Last I read, Saunterer had been banished to a deserted island, where he no doubt endlessly walks, muttering to his only companion...a volleyball named Wilson (ala Tom Hanks in "Cast Away"). And the "psychologically transparent and not very interesting from that standpoint" billywahoo must have finally snatched poor UtR into some parallel dimension.

Sounds like you have just returned home...and just in time for DST too (remember to set your clocks ahead tonight). You must have just beat the weather also. I will take the rain...you can have the snow.
http://www.whiotv.com/news/15523239/detail.html

tonyGricar

03-08-2008, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
And the "psychologically transparent and not very interesting from that standpoint" billywahoo must have finally snatched poor UtR into some parallel dimension.

Sounds like you have just returned home...and just in time for DST too (remember to set your clocks ahead tonight). You must have just beat the weather also. I will take the rain...you can have the snow. [/*]Ironically, I just re-read the manifesto. I forgot how hypocritical it actually was, spanning most of the sections. The potshots she took were nothing short of amazing. Considering she dedicated an unusual amount of time comparing me to BW, I guess I should be offended that she called "me" "psychologically transparent and not very interesting". At least she didn't keep going 3rd-person like PE and Lustro... "Ma'am, would you like ParlourElephant to bag your groceries in paper or plastic, today?". ;)

Yep, beat the snow. Quite the pseudo-blizzard we have here. Thankfully, the marina bar (a pitching wedge away) is now a snowmobilers haven and we have all of the required supplies for digging in for the long-haul: Beer, wings, pizza, and a case of Dewars...

Serendipitous1

03-08-2008, 05:29 PM

I was referring to UtR's "psychologically transparent and not very interesting from that standpoint" post in this forum...after which billywahoo left...never to return. BTW, your box is full.

J. J. in Phila

03-08-2008, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

It is the responsibility of those involved to 'police' that which is offered to the public, and corrections/retractions made when necessary so the public is not mis-informed.

I think you are being a little to hard here on Dixon. A quick comment that wasn't caught at an early press conference isn't a biggie, especially when the correct information was out there within a month (and as pointed out, it was).

That is a whole lot different than something like the fingerprints. That is something that Dixon should have checked.

Politigal

03-08-2008, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I promised myself to lighten up on journalists in general, and PB in particular...so allow me to reframe your question. Does it seem logical that everyone in the media (let alone LE...and TG) would not have picked up on actual, significantly inconsistent statements? [/*]

Since LE was in charge of the investigation, and since Zaccagni played a huge part in the intitial stages......it's possible that simply nothing was done about the inconsistent statements at all back then.

edited to add

Considering Patty looked thru the house for police

Considering Patty went to retrieve the laptop and the case wasn't fingerprinted afterward

Considering a forensic investigation wasn't done at the home (but possibly some things taken out later)

Considering the car was processed so quickly

Considering no one really knows what was used to scent the dogs

Considering PF wasn't even polygraphed til 3 months down the road

Considering Zaccagni felt sorry for Patty with regard to the mystery woman news

Considering......etc, etc, etc

Free ride all the way IMO

tonyGricar

03-08-2008, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I was referring to UtR's "psychologically transparent and not very interesting from that standpoint" post in this forum...after which billywahoo left...never to return. BTW, your box is full. [/*]My bad... Sounded like KA.

I guess I was being "overtly manipulative. And the question is 'why?'" lol

Serendipitous1

03-08-2008, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
Since LE was in charge of the investigation, and since Zaccagni played a huge part in the intitial stages......it's possible that simply nothing was done about the inconsistent statements at all back then. But TG impresses me (a gratuitous impression, not wanting of acknowledgment from the recipient thereof) as someone who would not have let that happen, if in fact such inconsistent statements existed. And all of PF's statements, whether to LE or the press, were surely available to the polygrapher...which, BTW, would have been a good reason to delay the polygraph. MOO

Serendipitous1

03-08-2008, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar My bad... Sounded like KA. I guess I was being "overtly manipulative. And the question is 'why?'" lol You are incorrigible! . . .:beer:

J. J. in Phila

03-08-2008, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

Considering Patty looked thru the house for police

False

Considering Patty went to retrieve the laptop and the case wasn't fingerprinted afterward

False, she was asked to retrieve and did.

Considering a forensic investigation wasn't done at the home (but possibly some things taken out later)

Considering there was nothing amiss at the house and LE doesn't check, what's your point?

Considering the car was processed so quickly

There was no rush to return the car.

Considering no one really knows what was used to scent the dogs

It is know, just not by us. Again, this would be through the PSP.

Considering PF wasn't even polygraphed til 3 months down the road

Irrelevant, as you can't study for a polygraph.

Considering Zaccagni felt sorry for Patty with regard to the mystery woman news

Huh, where'd you hear that?

Considering......etc, etc, etc

Considering we have "Patty Bashers" here that can't do anything but twist this into a case against her, often humorously.

gstickley

03-08-2008, 10:34 PM

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/14546212.htm

Posted on Wed, May. 10, 2006

Police revelations refocus attention on missing D.A.
Police seek 'construction-worker type.'

By Pete Bosak
pbosak@centredaily.com

BELLEFONTE -- Previously undisclosed news that missing former District Attorney Ray Gricar may have been seen talking to an unknown woman the day he disappeared set off media firestorm in Bellefonte today.

(SNIP)

It was not clear why the information about the woman or the construction worker was not made public earlier. For more than a week after Gricar's disappearance, Bellefonte police held almost daily news conferences that were covered by both local and national media.

"Hindsight is 20/20," Zaccagni. "If you're going to find fault, yeah, maybe we should have went to the media about this woman sooner. But there was no attempt to hide anything at all. She just fell by the wayside."

Although Zaccagni now describes the witness report as the first credible sighting of Gricar after he went missing, he and Weaver said police were following a plethora of leads at the time and it simply did not come up in communications with the media.

That may, in part, have been out of concern for Gricar's family and loved ones, Zaccagni said, and concerns that they would be hurt if the revelation raised questions about whether Gricar was having an affair.

(SNIP)

J. J. in Phila

03-08-2008, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/14546212.htm

Posted on Wed, May. 10, 2006

Police revelations refocus attention on missing D.A.
Police seek 'construction-worker type.'

By Pete Bosak
pbosak@centredaily.com

That may, in part, have been out of concern for Gricar's family and loved ones, Zaccagni said, and concerns that they would be hurt if the revelation raised questions about whether Gricar was having an affair.

(SNIP) [/*]

Tell me, how would this have sounded as the 4/18/05 CTD headline:

GRICAR MISSING, LAST SEEN WITH MYSTERY WOMAN IN LEWISBURG

day2day

03-09-2008, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Tell me, how would this have sounded as the 4/18/05 CTD headline:

GRICAR MISSING, LAST SEEN WITH MYSTERY WOMAN IN LEWISBURG [/*]

Why is everyone SO worried about how it sounds..IF it was the truth-that is exactly HOW it should have been reported ..IMO!

Seeing as the CDT refers to PG as "housemate"....they could have just been "friends"...:shrug:

sherrijean981

03-09-2008, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar

Yep, beat the snow. Quite the pseudo-blizzard we have here. Thankfully, the marina bar (a pitching wedge away) is now a snowmobilers haven and we have all of the required supplies for digging in for the long-haul: Beer, wings, pizza, and a case of Dewars... [/*]

Mmm! I'll have wings and iced tea, no sugar, please.

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Why is everyone SO worried about how it sounds..IF it was the truth-that is exactly HOW it should have been reported ..IMO!

Seeing as the CDT refers to PG as "housemate"....they could have just been "friends"...:shrug: [/*]

You've seen LW claims about how the press (and a massive conspiracy) is pushing walk away.

If the Lewisburg Mystery Woman had come out in the first two days, everyone would have jumped to the conclusion that RFG ran off with the woman. (even though it wis obviously wrong in that there is no missing woman).

Serendipitous1

03-09-2008, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
Mmm! I'll have wings and iced tea, no sugar, please. TG might not be in a 'delivering mood' today. A foot and a half of snow (plus drifts) can be so depressing this time of year...I said, as I watched robins frolic on my lawn and listened to cardinals calling outside my window.. . .:biggrin:

I know...I just put the 'whammy' on central PA. Think Spring!

gstickley

03-09-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You've seen LW claims about how the press (and a massive conspiracy) is pushing walk away.

If the Lewisburg Mystery Woman had come out in the first two days, everyone would have jumped to the conclusion that RFG ran off with the woman. (even though it wis obviously wrong in that there is no missing woman). [/*]

If the Lewisburg Mystery Woman (or the Tyrone Mystery Woman) had come out in the first 2 days, it might have rung a bell in someone's mind about maybe seeing something, instead of keeping it from the public for a year.

day2day

03-09-2008, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You've seen LW claims about how the press (and a massive conspiracy) is pushing walk away.

If the Lewisburg Mystery Woman had come out in the first two days, everyone would have jumped to the conclusion that RFG ran off with the woman. (even though it wis obviously wrong in that there is no missing woman). [/*]

IMO both LE and the press spent more time PROTECTING PF than they did seeking the real truth here...

could just be me....i dunno :shrug:

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by day2day

IMO both LE and the press spent more time PROTECTING PF than they did seeking the real truth here...

could just be me....i dunno :shrug: [/*]

In my opinion, neither the Press nor LE "protected" PEF. The reason is because the evidence excludes her (one of the few). It excludes her from being a murderer and from being a "helper."

day2day

03-09-2008, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

In my opinion, neither the Press nor LE "protected" PEF. The reason is because the evidence excludes her (one of the few). It excludes her from being a murderer and from being a "helper." [/*]

I don't believe i said she was either a murderer or a "helper"....i am speaking "feelings" here. It seems they felt the need to protect her feelings?! :shrug:

IIRC PF once claimed she WAS the MW even though the shop owner said no no she wasn't..?

Laws

03-09-2008, 09:19 PM

From what has been disclosed about Mr. Gricar he was a fairly predictable person.

Worked every day, informed staff himself if he was to be out & what the protocal would be in his absence, BUT not on 4/15/05, the Saint informed. UNUSUAL, I say VERY unless we have been misinformed.

4/15/05, no protocal other than he was out of the office & his cell phone was found OFF, UNUSUAL, I say very unless we have been misinformed.

It has in the past been inferred that many in the courthouse didn't know of the "relationship", yet we now hear of a miniature of the mini with the vanity plates on a clerks desk? Oh yeah, that screams of being discreet, doesn't it? Are you kidding me, bet the score was discussed whenever it could be squeezed into any conversation possible.

IMO, this is an example of foul play exemplified. Can easily visualize the act in play to really naieve, injured weak people who are easily manipulated by a sociopath.

As usual, just my opinion of this horribly handled tragedy.

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by day2day

I don't believe i said she was either a murderer or a "helper"....i am speaking "feelings" here. It seems they felt the need to protect her feelings?! :shrug:

You'll note that it said "family," and you will note the probably headline.

IIRC PF once claimed she WAS the MW even though the shop owner said no no she wasn't..? [/*]

Your recollection is incorrect as to the Lewisburg mystery woman.

Laws

03-09-2008, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by day2day

IMO both LE and the press spent more time PROTECTING PF than they did seeking the real truth here...

could just be me....i dunno :shrug: [/*]

NOPE, you're not wrong Day. Nobody it seems had Mr. Gricar as the number one priority, they were too busy keeping their blinders squarely positioned.

Cinderella

03-09-2008, 09:28 PM

Exactly right, Laws.

I for one am tired of the insults being hurled by the posters and at the posters. We were told if we have something to say to a person to pm them. Every poster on this site that has any questions whatsoever about PF get ridiclued and labeled. I for one am not going to take it anymore. I will report posters that attack and make fun of any other posters. This activity is ruining the board.

What I would also like to know is if anyone here ever heard of LE letting family members lead the show. What is put out to the public and what is not. Family members should never be given all the information about a case. PERIOD.

Serendipitous1

03-09-2008, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
If the Lewisburg Mystery Woman (or the Tyrone Mystery Woman) had come out in the first 2 days, it might have rung a bell in someone's mind about maybe seeing something, instead of keeping it from the public for a year. There are a lot of 'what ifs', whether the time frame is 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months...or 3 years. Aren't there always 'what ifs'? If there are asses to be kicked, I hope they are someday. But, right now I am more interested in whether there is any way left to possibly salvage some victory, however minor it may be. MOO

Serendipitous1

03-09-2008, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella <Snip>
I for one am tired of the insults being hurled by the posters and at the posters. We were told if we have something to say to a person to pm them. ... I will report posters that attack and make fun of any other posters. This activity is ruining the board. That door swings both ways. JMOO

day2day

03-09-2008, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Laws
From what has been disclosed about Mr. Gricar he was a fairly predictable person.

Worked every day, informed staff himself if he was to be out & what the protocal would be in his absence, BUT not on 4/15/05, the Saint informed. UNUSUAL, I say VERY unless we have been misinformed.

4/15/05, no protocal other than he was out of the office & his cell phone was found OFF, UNUSUAL, I say very unless we have been misinformed.

It has in the past been inferred that many in the courthouse didn't know of the "relationship", yet we now hear of a miniature of the mini with the vanity plates on a clerks desk? Oh yeah, that screams of being discreet, doesn't it? Are you kidding me, bet the score was discussed whenever it could be squeezed into any conversation possible.

IMO, this is an example of foul play exemplified. Can easily visualize the act in play to really naieve, injured weak people who are easily manipulated by a sociopath.

As usual, just my opinion of this horribly handled tragedy. [/*]

Great post Laws. From everything I have read it seems to me that Mr. Gricar was VERY dependable..VERY trustworthy and of course pretty darn PREDICTABLE-that is until 4/14-4/15.

My heart will never allow me to believe that Mr. Gricar put on a "front" for twenty plus years. I can't believe that he would leave LG or TG (for that matter) wondering the rest of their lives what happened to him.

Someone out there knows what happened....I hope one day we all know the truth...

jmo..

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Laws
From what has been disclosed about Mr. Gricar he was a fairly predictable person.

Worked every day, informed staff himself if he was to be out & what the protocal would be in his absence, BUT not on 4/15/05, the Saint informed. UNUSUAL, I say VERY unless we have been misinformed.

Considering that RFG was out of the office, part of the day, on 4/14/05 without telling anyone, you at least, were misinformed.

4/15/05, no protocal other than he was out of the office & his cell phone was found OFF, UNUSUAL, I say very unless we have been misinformed.

Considering that he had voicemail, this isn't "UNUSUAL" in the least, and wouldn't preclude any option.

It has in the past been inferred that many in the courthouse didn't know of the "relationship", yet we now hear of a miniature of the mini with the vanity plates on a clerks desk? Oh yeah, that screams of being discreet, doesn't it? Are you kidding me, bet the score was discussed whenever it could be squeezed into any conversation possible.

There is a big difference between not having public displays of affection in the workplace, and being "discreet," to the point of being secret. We have heard that a causual acquaintance referred to them as a "perfect couple," on 4/14/05 while they were walking together in a public park. That is NOT overly "discreet."

IMO, this is an example of foul play exemplified. Can easily visualize the act in play to really naieve, injured weak people who are easily manipulated by a sociopath.

The pop psychology here rises to the level of the recent, PEF-all Central Pennsylvania media-BPD-PSP-In Session message board poster-conspiracy theory recently raised by LW a few weeks ago.

day2day

03-09-2008, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You'll note that it said "family," and you will note the probably headline.

Your recollection is incorrect as to the Lewisburg mystery woman. [/*]

I don't think so JJ...

Additional eyewitnesses have reported they saw Ray Gricar with the same "mystery" woman he was with the day he disappeared.

Gricar, a former Centre County district attorney, went missing over a year ago. Since that time, police have been investigating reports that he was seen with a woman the day he was reported missing.

The owners of an antique shop have now come forward and said Gricar was in the shop with a woman who matches the description of the same "mystery" woman. The shop owners said the pair was in the antique shop weeks before they were spotted in Lewisburg.

Gricar's girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, told police she was the woman at the antique shop, but the store's owners said it was not Fornicola, but another woman.

The store's owners said they were surprised when the heard the description of the mystery woman in Lewisburg because it sounds like the same woman who was in their store with Gricar.

The shop owner said Gricar and the woman were in the store for at least 20 minutes, browsing and chatting together.

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=122775&threadid=737159

Cinderella

03-09-2008, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
That door swings both ways. JMOO [/*]

The door will not swing either way anymore. It will be stopped from swinging.

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by day2day

I don't think so JJ...

[/*]

Then you think incorrectly; that was in Tyrone, not Lewisburg.

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 10:13 PM

I don't know if the link works:

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=163&pid=201102&mode=threaded&show=&st=&
Tyrone twist in Gricar case

By SAM J. ZEMA
Staff Writer
May 17, 2006

Optimal line:

WJAC Channel 6 News first reported the story earlier this week. The report said Fornicola had told Bellefonte police she was the woman with Gricar in Tyrone.

Emphasis added.

Day, this has been cited on the board repeatedly.

day2day

03-09-2008, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Then you think incorrectly; that was in Tyrone, not Lewisburg. [/*]

So you are saying this website lied? I just copied what I read and that was the Lewisburg sighting. Unless of course PF thought she was both mw's ..

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by day2day

So you are saying this website lied? I just copied what I read and that was the Lewisburg sighting. Unless of course PF thought she was both mw's .. [/*]

I am saying the website didn't copy the entire story, much like "the dogs circled the car," more than 12 hours after the car was removed.

Now, the link did work and you can read the article.

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 10:40 PM

Day, here is another site:

A followup question to your Q&A about the 'mystery woman' on 5/18. If the mystery woman is unknown other than by the stated description - 5'8" to 5'10", dark-hair, 'good-looking', 30s-40s - and the Lewisburg witness to this mystery woman could not provide sufficient detail of her appearance even to permit police to produce a sketch of her to show around, then precisely how did Zaccagni, having tracked someone suspected to be her down in the Midwest, determine that that person was NOT the person the witness saw? Alibi? Some kind of photo of her shown to Lewisburg witness? If photo, was it also shown to the Tyrone antique store owner? Maybe since Zaccagni is now forbidden to speak with you, this may be unanswerable. But just wondering.
Anonymous, State College 5/18/06

A. Different woman. Within 24 hours, police tracked down a known acquaitance of Gricar's who fit the "mystery woman's" description. She was ruled out and could not possibly have been the woman who was reportedly seen with Gricar, if in fact the man was Gricar to begin with. The woman Zaccagni tracked down in the Midwest was someone who came up in a missing person search about the same time Gricar vanished. She was not the mystery woman either. As for this Tyrone sighting of the "mystery woman," police said she was none other than Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola. And Patty agrees.
Pete Bosak 5/19/06

Emphasis added.

day2day

03-09-2008, 10:46 PM

Thanks for the links JJ. Heck i dunno what to think about this case anymore. So many half-truths and flat out lies i don't believe anyone. And that is pretty sad...

jmo

Serendipitous1

03-09-2008, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by Laws
NOPE, you're not wrong Day. Nobody it seems had Mr. Gricar as the number one priority, they were too busy keeping their blinders squarely positioned. MOO - Would that include JKA and the rest of the ADAs? Because, what I believe IS needed (particularly now) ARE 'sound-bites'...facts...and lots of them...not just from LE, but also from those who knew RG best.

J. J. recently resurrected KA’s comments, made to a 4/15/06 CDT article. I found this 'anonymous' comment to be rather eloquent, though devoid of particulars regarding this case. It was appended to the 5/25/06 CDT article 'Gricar mystery gets a novel new twist':

No one who ever knew Ray Gricar would ever believe he was anything but utterly devoted to his job. Suggestions that he planned a disappearance of any kind, whether to abandon his life in Centre County or to inflict harm on himself while perpetrating what amounts to a massive practical joke, are not only ludicrous, but offensive to the memory of an incredibly dedicated public servant.

I knew Ray Gricar professionally for 18 years, and I can say unequivocally that if he had any reason to believe another elected official had staged a scene that lead to the kind of manhunt and huge expense of investigation that his disappearance has caused, Ray would have been tireless in finding him, bringing him back and trying him for fraud, as well as recouping the county’s expenses.

Ray was a public figure and a private man. He would not appreciate being the center of a hurricane, particularly one that has become such a storm of misinformation and conjecture. Ray preferred facts. So let's hear those 'facts', not just about forcefully closed doors and miniature Minis...and not just 'Wiley/West' stuff either!

Post script: it may be time to back-up the threads again. I feel another 'thread purge' looming. MOO

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by day2day
Thanks for the links JJ. Heck i dunno what to think about this case anymore. So many half-truths and flat out lies i don't believe anyone. And that is pretty sad...

jmo [/*]

Day, if you wonder why I become the Board Information Policeman :) at times, it's because of things of like this.

When UTR was on the board, one of the greatest bones of contention we had was here insisting that the dogs circled the car. Now, where she got it was a misstatement, not from the press, but from a story that was improperly cut and pasted on another site; the story had it right, but since she (or I) didn't have the original, the argument when on and on.

We have enough "mistatements" that were given to the press, like the fingerprints, that we (you and I and the rest of the posters) shouldn't contribute to it.

Cloudbuster

03-09-2008, 11:20 PM

I have a question? What is a jury Comissioner? Seems in 2005 PF was on the ballot?
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=127216

day2day

03-09-2008, 11:23 PM

Really this case has just about everything...
Fishermen finding laptops-Mama and daughter skippin stones finding hardrives..mystery women...or was that pf..with him in Lewisburg or Tyrone...

I really wouldn't be surprised if the Easter Bunny doesn't show up soon with the next "clue" in this mystery...hammer

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Post script: it may be time to back-up the threads again. I feel another 'thread purge' looming. MOO [/*]

How do you save a thread?

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I have a question? What is a jury Comissioner? Seems in 2005 PF was on the ballot?
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=127216 [/*]

A Jury Commissioner (I've known three), oversees the the lottery to select jurors. It's elective, but it usually the Commissioner just stands there, signs papers and collects a 5 digit check. It's absolutely administrative and they have no great authority to do anything.

In many counties, it is basically a reward to faithful service to the party; One Republican and one Democrat are elected.

day2day

03-09-2008, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I have a question? What is a jury Comissioner? Seems in 2005 PF was on the ballot?
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=127216 [/*]

Add that to my list above..shocking I tell ya. My guess would be they would handle sending out jury summons and jurors during trials and such. In Kentucky our Circuit Clerk handles all the jury duties.

PF as Jury Commisioner and her "one" as DA would sorta be a conflict..i would think...(JMO)

GREAT find btw CB!:seeya:

Cloudbuster

03-09-2008, 11:30 PM

I found the definition.
Jury Commissioner: The court officer responsible for choosing the panel of persons to serve as potential jurors for a particular court term.

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Add that to my list above..shocking I tell ya. My guess would be they would handle sending out jury summons and jurors during trials and such. In Kentucky our Circuit Clerk handles all the jury duties.

PF as Jury Commisioner and her "one" as DA would sorta be a conflict..i would think...(JMO)

GREAT find btw CB!:seeya: [/*]

Not even close (considering the Governor of PA is married to a federal judge).

The kicker is, you work less than 10 hours per year. :)

Cloudbuster

03-09-2008, 11:36 PM

THX Day! So basically PF could pick who she wanted on a jury?

day2day

03-09-2008, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Not even close (considering the Governor of PA is married to a federal judge).

The kicker is, you work less than 10 hours per year. :) [/*]

..10 hours per year? ..now that would be the job to have!! :D

day2day

03-09-2008, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
THX Day! So basically PF could pick who she wanted on a jury? [/*]

Well JJ says i am wrong..so who knows? (that would have been my guess ..but i tend to leap for the obvious yanno)...
hmmm now how do we find out if PF was really on the ballot (and why havent we heard about it until now)..

gstickley

03-09-2008, 11:44 PM

Day, I don't think you were wrong. LE didn't make public the "Lewisburg Mystery Woman" until around 05/15/06, or until a year after the disappearance. IIRC, the "Tyrone Mystery Woman" was made public by the owners of the antique shop AFTER the LMW made the news. And you were also right about PF insisting the TMW was her, even though the owners of the antique shop knew RG & knew the woman wasn't PF. Naturally, nothing more was heard from LE about the TMW upon PF's insistence, tears included, that it was her.

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by day2day

..10 hours per year? ..now that would be the job to have!! :D [/*]

And, they make $11,000, as of a few years ago. Like I said, I've known 3. One actually moved to TX in the middle of his term, and collected a check. I think they basically have to show up about 4 times a year. The basically oversee the lottery where potential jurors names are drawn.

BTW, it is not up this year, but will be next.

I know at least one judge (Abood, for Cambrians) that publicly called for the post to be abolished.

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 11:52 PM

She wasn't

http://www.co.centre.pa.us/elections/results/results.asp?FolderName=2005__municipal_primary_ele ction&FileName=2005_municipal_primary_bellefonte_boro_no rth_p_0001

That lists all the candidates for county office as well.

A Jury Commissioner is a bigger joke office in PA than the Sheriff. I don't even think they can hire anyone.

Cloudbuster

03-09-2008, 11:55 PM

Hmmm so basically PF would only have to be around 4 times per year? The post was made a month after RG disappeared. If she would have gotton it and RG was still around I don't think people would want her picking the jury that RG would be prosecuting.
JMHO.

J. J. in Phila

03-09-2008, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
Day, I don't think you were wrong. LE didn't make public the "Lewisburg Mystery Woman" until around 05/15/06, or until a year after the disappearance. IIRC, the "Tyrone Mystery Woman" was made public by the owners of the antique shop AFTER the LMW made the news. And you were also right about PF insisting the TMW was her, even though the owners of the antique shop knew RG & knew the woman wasn't PF. Naturally, nothing more was heard from LE about the TMW upon PF's insistence, tears included, that it was her. [/*]

No, PEF was never a possibility for the Lewisburg Mystery Woman, and never claimed she was.

Apparently, LE did check as well, according to PB, and that was posted. Just another red herring in GS's list of red herrings.

Serendipitous1

03-10-2008, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster I have a question? What is a jury Comissioner? Seems in 2005 PF was on the ballot?
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=127216 You get your facts from 'macrumors.com'? Try J. J.'s link.

CENTRE COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA - MUNICIPAL PRIMARY - MAY 17, 2005

DEM - JURY COMMISSIONER - FOUR YEAR TERM - VOTE FOR 1
RUTH M. DEWITT . . . . . . . . 1,579
RUTH L. LUSE . . . . . . . . . . 2,476
SALLY J. LARSON . . . . . . . . 1,544
WRITE-IN . . . . . . . . . . . . 17

REP - JURY COMMISSIONER - FOUR YEAR TERM - VOTE FOR 1
ANNA *. LOSE . . . . . . . . . 4,742
SUE MASCOLO . . . . . . . . 4,221
WRITE-IN . . . . . . . . . . . 25

http://www.co.centre.pa.us/elections/results/results.asp?FolderName=2005__municipal_primary_ele ction&FileName=2005_municipal_primary_accumulated_result s

J. J. in Phila

03-10-2008, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Hmmm so basically PF would only have to be around 4 times per year? The post was made a month after RG disappeared. If she would have gotton it and RG was still around I don't think people would want her picking the jury that RG would be prosecuting.
JMHO. [/*]

First, she wasn't on the ballot; I've checked and a link was provided.

Second, she doesn't "pick" them, just oversees the lottery used. The lawyers in the have a role in "picking" them, as does the judge.

Third, the term of office for the Jury Commissioner in 2005 would begin in January 2006, so they wouldn't have overlapped.

Serendipitous1

03-10-2008, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
How do you save a thread? Down at the bottom of the screen, click "Show Printable Version".
Up at the top of the next screen, click "Show all posts from this thread on one page."
On your tool bar, click "File", then "Save As...", then "Save".

J. J. in Phila

03-10-2008, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Down at the bottom of the screen, click "Show Printable Version".
Up at the top of the next screen, click "Show all posts from this thread on one page."
On your tool bar, click "File", then "Save As...", then "Save". [/*]

Thank you. :)

Serendipitous1

03-10-2008, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by day2day
..10 hours per year? ..now that would be the job to have!! :D Amazing 'knowledge' for a disabled guy living in MacPhilly. MOO . . .:lol:

J. J. in Phila

03-10-2008, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Amazing 'knowledge' for a disabled guy living in MacPhilly. MOO . . .:lol: [/*]

MacPhilly? ???

I've actually known three, one of which was a complete idiot.

Ironically, the post doesn't exist, as an elective office, in Philadelphia County though we do have a Sheriff. :)

sherrijean981

03-10-2008, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Day, here is another site:

A. The woman Zaccagni tracked down in the Midwest was someone who came up in a missing person search about the same time Gricar vanished. .[/u]
Pete Bosak 5/19/06[/i]
[/*]

Does that mean, this woman, who DZ thought was the MW from the Lewisburg SOS, a friend of RG's, also went missing the same time as RG?

Or that she was helping in a missing person search?

J. J. in Phila

03-10-2008, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Does that mean, this woman, who DZ thought was the MW from the Lewisburg SOS, a friend of RG's, also went missing the same time as RG?

Or that she was helping in a missing person search? [/*]

I think that there was a woman from the Mississippi Valley that disappeared at about the time as RFG and, and LE considered the possibility that there had "run off" together, largely because both disappeared at the same time. I think that she was found alive and that there was no connection; they'd never met.

You might want to ask PB or perhaps Tony.

Cloudbuster

03-10-2008, 01:56 AM

Found this link also amusing.
http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/514159-Music-Hard-Rock

Laws

03-10-2008, 04:20 AM

Ray Gricar was a SINGLE man. Ray Gricar was entitled to be seen with whomever he chose to keep company with or hold a conversation with whomever he chose.

It's a horrible, horrible shame that this devoted public servant & father was completely deprived of his peaceful retirement & possible grandfather duties that his future would have held other than the actions of a perverted selfish totally self absorbed waste of human form.

IMO, this decent hard working man was murdered & tossed away like he was trash with no regard for his family by what isn't sufficient to exist, knows it within itself & it must be a full time/every second of every day compulsion to keep it shielded from the light & what empowers the evil within. MHO

Serendipitous1

03-10-2008, 09:34 AM

Who (or what) is this murderous, perverted, selfish, totally self-absorbed, waste of human form...who (which) isn't sufficient to exist, knows it, and spends every second of every day keeping what empowers the evil within shielded from the light? And, do we need the CIA or an exorcist?

puzzled

03-10-2008, 11:04 AM

Thanks LW....sounds exactly like Joe Leathers!

J. J. in Phila

03-10-2008, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Laws

It's a horrible, horrible shame that this devoted public servant & father was completely deprived of his peaceful retirement & possible grandfather duties that his future would have held other than the actions of a perverted selfish totally self absorbed waste of human form.

IMO, this decent hard working man was murdered & tossed away like he was trash with no regard for his family by what isn't sufficient to exist, knows it within itself & it must be a full time/every second of every day compulsion to keep it shielded from the light & what empowers the evil within.

Laws, you've jumped to whole bunch of conclusions. Where is your evidence?

Are you sure that RFG is dead? Are you sure RFG was murdered? I've seen evidence of neither.

J. J. in Phila

03-10-2008, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Bin/sb.html

In particular, don't miss reading the end of the article under THE MALIGNANT PERSONALITY, #3, Local law enforcement........... [/*]

LW, from the description you've posted, most the people in this case (including RFG), probably about the posters, have at least one of the characteristics listed. :rolleyes:

ladyheartfixer

03-10-2008, 02:17 PM

good old boy politics...pa style...http://www.yardbird.com/reform_pa_Rendell_Ballard_Spahr.htm(copy and paste)

puzzled

03-10-2008, 03:00 PM

Laws I am very confused by the second paragraph of your post. Could you please explain what you are trying to say differently? I want to understand it but I am having trouble...sorry.

sherrijean981

03-10-2008, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

LW, from the description you've posted, most the people in this case (including RFG), probably about the posters, have at least one of the characteristics listed. :rolleyes: [/*]

I was just going to say something similar. I felt like I was turning into one earlier when trying to figure out this new VCR/DVD machine.

I also thought when reading it there is a little bit of that in most people I know and have seen some on here at times. ;)

gstickley

03-10-2008, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
A. As for this Tyrone sighting of the "mystery woman," police said she was none other than Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola. And Patty agrees.
Pete Bosak 5/19/06[/i]

Emphasis added. [/*]

Since PB makes no "mistakements", it sounds like LE eliminated the TMW . . . "And Patty agrees."

However:

"Tom Marshall, owner of I-99 Antiques on Pennsylvania Avenue, said he and his wife live in State College. He said he knew Gricar and saw him and spoke to him at the store weeks before his disappearance.

He said Gricar was with an unidentified woman. Marshall said the woman was not Gricar’s daughter or girlfriend, Patty Fornicola. He said Gricar drove away from the shop in the same car he was using when he went missing in mid-April of last year.

Marshall said he was contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricar’s disappearance and gave authorities details about the encounter. Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing."

http://www.tyronepa.com/news/article.php?id=7284

J. J. in Phila

03-10-2008, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Marshall said he was contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricar’s disappearance and gave authorities details about the encounter. Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing."

http://www.tyronepa.com/news/article.php?id=7284 [/*]

GS, that is the woman, PEF, seen in Tryone. Day was referring to Lewisburg. Those are two different towns.

day2day

03-10-2008, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
Day, I don't think you were wrong. LE didn't make public the "Lewisburg Mystery Woman" until around 05/15/06, or until a year after the disappearance. IIRC, the "Tyrone Mystery Woman" was made public by the owners of the antique shop AFTER the LMW made the news. And you were also right about PF insisting the TMW was her, even though the owners of the antique shop knew RG & knew the woman wasn't PF. Naturally, nothing more was heard from LE about the TMW upon PF's insistence, tears included, that it was her. [/*]

Thanks gs...A year because they didn't want to hurt anyones feelings...BIG of them i tell ya....
And yep i remember the tears -very well!! Crocodile ones -even!
I will NEVER understand how this case got so off course..it should NOT happen to someone THIS important in a community...

jmo...

day2day

03-10-2008, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Amazing 'knowledge' for a disabled guy living in MacPhilly. MOO . . .:lol: [/*]

Mmhmm MacPhilly-right next to MacDonalds i betcha..hammer

Serendipitous1

03-11-2008, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
MacPhilly? ??? Originally posted by day2day
Mmhmm MacPhilly-right next to MacDonalds i betcha.. Lol...just a spin-off on Cloudbuster's MacRumors.com baloney! . . . ;) . . .MOO

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 01:54 PM

We just got a probable answer from PB on the scenting. He thinks it was RFG's tee shirt and it was selected by LE.

sherrijean981

03-11-2008, 02:20 PM

Also the Secret Service gave the polygraphs to both LG and PF.
Guess they don't know their job if some on here think they got the wrong results. I was always under the impression they knew what they were doing. :shrug:

day2day

03-11-2008, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
Also the Secret Service gave the polygraphs to both LG and PF.
Guess they don't know their job if some on here think they got the wrong results. I was always under the impression they knew what they were doing. :shrug: [/*]

SJ..
I have a question for you. Why aren't polygraph's admissable in a court of law?

And i never said the SS didnt know what THEY were doing. There are those who can lie their way out of these tests...like the green river killer...(justa thought)

day2day

03-11-2008, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
We just got a probable answer from PB on the scenting. He thinks it was RFG's tee shirt and it was selected by LE. [/*]

Thanks JJ. After nearly three years...an "i think" is very comforting...
:read:

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Thanks JJ. After nearly three years...an "i think" is very comforting...
:read: [/*]

Since the question wasn't asked before this, a detail three years after the fact, to the press at least, "I think" is reasonably good answer. I hope it gets better.

sherrijean981

03-11-2008, 03:56 PM

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by day2day

SJ..
I have a question for you. Why aren't polygraph's admissable in a court of law?

And i never said the SS didnt know what THEY were doing. There are those who can lie their way out of these tests...like the green river killer...(justa thought) [/*]

Gee, Day, then why did you ask for one here:

day2day
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Supporting Shasta and Steve!
Posts: 2862

Billy
I don't want to argue with you...but see my point of view for about 10 seconds, k?

IF my Dad "vanished" and yes he does hold an elected postion..I would NOT want LE to go by his gf's OR anyone's story for that matter...
She says he was fatigued in the "last few weeks"....sorry I can't quite "get" HOW she is above a polygraph...

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05-14-2005 02:20 PM

And here:

day2day
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Supporting Shasta and Steve!
Posts: 2862

I totally agree with you Laws...I still have visions of them dragging the runaway brides computer out of their house..and how they hounded her fiance for the polygraph! Why they haven't polygraphed the last known person..(especially since it is HER story that we are relying on) baffles me...A search of his home would also be a wise decision. I just hope that we find out the "real" truth soon...

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05-15-2005 11:09 AM

Not to mention:

day2day
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Supporting Shasta and Steve!
Posts: 2862

***Great PF offered to do a polygraph ...hook her right on up!!

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06-10-2005 11:28 AM

Or this:

day2day
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Supporting Shasta and Steve!
Posts: 2862

Laws..
Oh yes I agree ..not anyone affiliated in anyway shape or form with Centre County!! Det. Z surely is unlike any other Det. I have ever seen....perhaps he is afraid of what he will uncover?! I would love to read some "real" transcripts of this case ..and not the Centre Daily Times view of things...
Ms. PF was visibly shaken (imo) in that interview...I suppose though that would be embarrasing for everyone to think your "man" had ran away with another woman...I still think that if Ray was alive he would contact his daughter!!
I pray that Ray is still alive although it has been a long time

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06-10-2005 07:46 PM

Day, you got the answer, it's just the answer you have doesn't support what you thought. I think you were right when you made those posts in 2005, but it's now 2008, and we have answers. You can continue to live in Fantasyland or you can take the information, realize that you're on a dead end, turn around and move in another direction. (Guess what, I have to do it all the time.)

day2day

03-11-2008, 04:17 PM

Hmm...so let me get this right. The phone call was made to PF..the car was PF's ..the home was PF's..the phone call "claiming Mr. Gricar was missing came from PF...PF claims she is the mystery woman...
And so IF i include her in this investigation ..you believe i live in Fantasyland? IMO if you CHOOSE to ignore the obvious (like LE has done since day1)...this case will NEVER be solved and we will be here till 2020 wondering what happened to Mr. Gricar.
Have you EVER heard of a missing persons case where LE simply chose NOT to interview friends, co-workers or neighbors? Who spent MONTHS with a psychic and not 3 hours with the obvious?

Hate to spill the beans here jj...but its not day who lives in fantasyland...

I think the ones who live in fantasyland are the ones who handled this case from day1.
jmo yanno....

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by day2day
Hmm...so let me get this right. The phone call was made to PF..the car was PF's ..the home was PF's..the phone call "claiming Mr. Gricar was missing came from PF...PF claims she is the mystery woman...

As would be the case with every couple that works together.

And so IF i include her in this investigation ..you believe i live in Fantasyland?

If you continue to cast her in the role of a suspect, after the evidence says otherwise, yes, you are in living in Fantasyland.

IMO if you CHOOSE to ignore the obvious (like LE has done since day1)...this case will NEVER be solved and we will be here till 2020 wondering what happened to Mr. Gricar.

Ah, but I have not chosen to ignore anything; I, in fact, just said it should have been looked at, and they were good, when asked, three years ago. YOU, on the other hand, have chosen to IGNORE the questions that YOU had asked, by discounting the the ANSWERS. :rolleyes:

Have you EVER heard of a missing persons case where LE simply chose NOT to interview friends, co-workers or neighbors?

Occasionally, yes, but the person that LE did subject to extreme scrutiny was PEF.

Hate to spill the beans here jj...but its not day who lives in fantasyland...

I think the ones who live in fantasyland are the ones who handled this case from day1.
jmo yanno.... [/*]

You do realize that by spinning the case toward someone that has been checked out, you are taking the focus what really happened, don't you? The last time I saw someone do that, it was Lustor.

If RFG was murdered, you would behelping the killer. You do realize that, out there in Fantasyland, don't you?

day2day

03-11-2008, 04:48 PM

JJ..your name calling is worse than my littleones. And really i am getting tired of it.
Ignore my posts if you want to...truth is-if you IGNORE PF in this...you could JUST be missing what really happened to Mr. Gricar.
I find it VERY strange knowing what I know about Mr. Gricar's background that when a MW is mentioned PF swears its her.and when it is pointed out nope it wasnt YOU she shows her crocodile tears...
SHE of all people should have known it just might have been an ABUSED woman that Mr. Gricar seemed to have a heart for...

jmo...

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by day2day
JJ..your name calling is worse than my littleones. And really i am getting tired of it.

Day, I have not called you any names, though your own words are damning.

Ignore my posts if you want to...truth is-if you IGNORE PF in this...you could JUST be missing what really happened to Mr. Gricar.

I'm not suggesting anyone ignore you posts; I just posted a few of your old ones, in fact.

I find it VERY strange knowing what I know about Mr. Gricar's background that when a MW is mentioned PF swears its her.and when it is pointed out nope it wasnt YOU she shows her crocodile tears...

You claimed that it was woman seen it Lewisburg. Maybe in Fantasyland they are the same place, but in Pennsylvania, they are 75-110 miles apart.

SHE of all people should have known it just might have been an ABUSED woman that Mr. Gricar seemed to have a heart for...

It would be very unusual for an "ABUSED woman," to be meeting RFG in a parking lot 50 miles away. Also, what does this have to do with PEF? I think we've discussed some of the reasons it wasn't emphasized initially. I'm sure you'd have preferred the tag line "Gricar missing. Last seen in Lewisburg with Mystery Woman. Film at Eleven." That what you want, right? :rolleyes:

day2day

03-11-2008, 05:20 PM

Sighs...
JJ...im not the only person here who remembers PF claiming she was the mystery woman in Lewisburg. My own words are damning? Now THAT is hilarious! They damn me to what? Hell with you? ..If so-im goin to confession FAST! You take yourself WAY too seriously-bubba!!
As a matter of fact I asked SJ why polys weren't admissable in a court of law..not you. And last time i checked SJ is way more than capable to type for herself.
You "claim" to be ex-LE so I'm sure you KNOW that poly's can and ARE beaten allllllllllll the time ....How many times did the green river killer beat the poly?
As for an abused woman in a parking lot -it could happen. Amazingly YOU don't know it all jj.....PF spewed her alligator tears when she heard of the "mystery woman"..I find that almost funny for a woman who claimed Mr. Gricar was her "soulmate" ..then in the next breath she has him running off with another woman...
Tells me the relationship was not as solid as she has tried to force everyone (including YOU ) to believe!

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by day2day
Sighs...
JJ...im not the only person here who remembers PF claiming she was the mystery woman in Lewisburg.

In this case, links have actually been posted to what was claimed and they show that your memmory is even worse than JKA, Judge Grine, Bennett

My own words are damning? Now THAT is hilarious! They damn me to what? Hell with you? ..If so-im goin to confession FAST! You take yourself WAY too seriously-bubba!!

You own quotations show the level of importance that you held the polygraph. Now, did you have something that impaired your memory between then and now? :rolleyes:

As a matter of fact I asked SJ why polys weren't admissable in a court of law..not you. And last time i checked SJ is way more than capable to type for herself.

Actually, for many things, they are admissible; they are not foolproof and some of the chances of error. There is also question of the ability of some of the operators. This is lessened because of the operators in this case.

You "claim" to be ex-LE so I'm sure you KNOW that poly's can and ARE beaten allllllllllll the time ....How many times did the green river killer beat the poly?

I have NEVER claimed to be ex-LE; you've just boarded the train to Fantasyland. :rolleyes:

.PF spewed her alligator tears when she heard of the "mystery woman".

Do you have a link to that?

Tells me the relationship was not as solid as she has tried to force everyone (including YOU ) to believe! [/*]

Ah, I've give fairly large odds that this is walkaway, which doesn't exactly fit the "solid" relationship, at least on the part of RFG. Your posts get wilder by the hour.

day2day

03-11-2008, 07:23 PM

First...
bubba-don't worry bout my memory...MY memory is fine...and isn't IMPORTANT in this case. But PF's IS. So lets get the focus WHERE it belongs...on the person who created the scenario.

If you need to see the crocodile tears check out Dateline EVERYONE saw her poor pitiful me crocodile tears..and BTW noone believed it then and they CERTAINLY don't believe her now!

And back to the polys bubba-

And actually YOU gave us all the reason why these tests aren't admissable...
unreliable operators, machine errors .. oh and people can fool them (go figure )hammer

And i would like to know the rule of evidence when poly's are admissable-since YOU seem to be an expert here--bubba.

And im pretty sure that the land i live in only wants the TRUTH ...none of this -nearly three years later .."i THINK" BS that is being fed to us by your friends..

jmo

day2day

03-11-2008, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

GS, that is the woman, PEF, seen in Tryone. Day was referring to Lewisburg. Those are two different towns. [/*]

NOOOOOOOOOOO JJ...Same woman-two towns..re-read please!

Marshall said he was contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricar’s disappearance and gave authorities details about the encounter. Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing."

http://www.tyronepa.com/news/article.php?id=7284

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by day2day

NOOOOOOOOOOO JJ...Same woman-two towns..re-read please!

Wrong again. The witness in Tyrone, Marshall, IIRC, never saw the woman that was seen in Lewisburg. There isn't a photo of the Lewisburg Mystery Woman so there is no way he could tell if it was the same woman.

Marshall said he was contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricar’s disappearance and gave authorities details about the encounter. Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing."

http://www.tyronepa.com/news/article.php?id=7284 [/*]

Marshall only found about it at the same time as the "Dateline" story, more than a year after RFG disappeared.

BTW: I've seen a photo of the woman LE thought was Lewisburg and she has the same hair and eye color of PEF; I can't tell too well from the photo, but she appears to the same height or shorter than PEF and they have similar chins.

Return to Fantasyland.

gstickley

03-11-2008, 08:22 PM

Please read Carefully

Tyrone twist in Gricar case

By SAM J. ZEMA
Staff Writer
May 17, 2006

The owner of a Tyrone antique shop told The Daily Herald yesterday he had seen the former Centre County District Attorney with an unidentified woman at his shop several weeks before Ray Gricar went missing.

Tom Marshall, owner of I-99 Antiques on Pennsylvania Avenue, said he and his wife live in State College. He said he knew Gricar and saw him and spoke to him at the store weeks before his disappearance.

He said Gricar was with an unidentified woman. Marshall said the woman was not Gricar’s daughter or girlfriend, Patty Fornicola. He said Gricar drove away from the shop in the same car he was using when he went missing in mid-April of last year.

Marshall said he was contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricar’s disappearance and gave authorities details about the encounter. Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing.

WJAC Channel 6 News first reported the story earlier this week. The report said Fornicola had told Bellefonte police she was the woman with Gricar in Tyrone.

Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn Weaver did not return a call by press time this morning.

gstickley

03-11-2008, 08:25 PM

And who was it who said the alleged Mystery Woman in Lewisburg was described like Sara James?????

Sara James . . . Patty Fornicola . . . no way they come close resembling each other!!!!!

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
Please read Carefully

Tyrone twist in Gricar case

By SAM J. ZEMA
Staff Writer
May 17, 2006

... Marshall said he was contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricar’s disappearance and gave authorities details about the encounter. Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing. ...

Emphasis added. :rolleyes:

Matshall saw the women in Tyrone. He didn't see the Lewisburg Mystery Woman.

gstickley

03-11-2008, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
And who was it who said the alleged Mystery Woman in Lewisburg was described like Sara James?????

Sara James . . . Patty Fornicola . . . no way they come close resembling each other!!!!! [/*]

Oh, yeah, it was DZ. I don't know PF, but does this description sound like her??? (Don't forget to check out the length of Sara James's hair.)

This was taken from Dateline, 05/13/06)
(snip)
Zaccagni: We had a report in the street of shops that in the man’s mind, he was with another woman. He described her as 5’9 , short brownish black hair your length, very good looking, in her 30s - early 40s maybe. He felt they were together but they weren’t romantically together.
(snip)

day2day

03-11-2008, 08:38 PM

day2day

03-11-2008, 08:43 PM

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
And who was it who said the alleged Mystery Woman in Lewisburg was described like Sara James?????

Who told you THAT?

I've seen a photo of the person LE originally thought it was and she looks a lot more more like PEF than does she does like Sara James.

The person, I'll call her "Mary," has the same color eyes, hair and complexion as PEF. In the photo, her hair is longer. Mary's chin is very similar to PEF's.

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by day2day

LOL no they don't resemble each other AT all...!! [/*]

Please tell me who said that this women looked like Sara James.

gstickley

03-11-2008, 09:33 PM

Check out a picture of Sara James on the Dateline website on 05/13/06.

Then check out pictures of PF.

Same hair length??

Is PF around 5'9" tall?

None of us have had the pleasure (?) of seeing the picture you've just been bragging about seeing. So, why don't you post the picture & let us do our own comparison?

Politigal

03-11-2008, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Please tell me who said that this women looked like Sara James. [/*]

UndertheRadar
Senior Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: "Contrarianism is creativity for the untalented." ~Dennis Miller
Posts: 2831
Sequence of Events
Here's what I think may be an interesting question about the mystery woman sightings:

The <*>May 11, 2006 CDT piece says,
"Previously undisclosed news that missing former District Attorney Ray Gricar may have been seen shopping with an unknown woman the day he disappeared set off a national media firestorm on Wednesday and had investigators scrambling to defend their reasons for not divulging it sooner."

The Dateline piece aired <*>May 13. Zaccagni describes the Lewisburg mystery woman (brownish black hair about the length of Sara James' hair, 5'9" tall, very good looking, according to the witness via DZ). It does not mention any Tyrone sighting.

The <*>May 17, 2006 Tyronepa.com piece says that Marshall told the Daily Herald about the encounter on the previous day (May 16th).

It also says that LE contacted Marshall "after" RG's disappearance, and that Marshall "gave authorities details about the encounter."

<*>So, question: when LE contacted Marshall initially, did LE tell Marshall about the Lewisburg mystery woman?

It would sound as if they did not.

The Lewisburg mystery woman is described as "previously undisclosed news." This was, after all, news LE has admitted they wanted to keep quiet in deference to the family. Would they have told Marshall they had a sighting similar to his in Lewisburg and hoped he would keep his mouth shut?

So here's how the picture is potentially adding up to me: Marshall is contacted "after RG's disappearance." He describes the encounter, including details of an unidentified woman with RG, one he describes as not PF or LG. LE does NOT reveal to Marshall that this unidentified woman's description jibes with another description they have from the Lewisburg site.

The news of the Lewisburg mystery woman breaks via the CDT and Dateline in May 2006. Marshall hears this and says, whoa, wait, that sounds like the same woman <*>I saw him with before he disappeared. He talks to the Daily Herald and says the descriptions match.

This is even messier for the BPD. Now there's not one but two reported sightings with "MW" which have been kept under wraps for 13 months, there's an outraged public demanding action in the RG case with the first anniversary having passed with no trace of him, there's a girlfriend near tears apparently learning through the press about these reports, and oh, this is about the time the suppressed Fenton sighting comes to light.
All of which paints a very interesting scenario when you stop to think about it.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

04-01-2007 12:54 PM

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 09:53 PM

Okay, because the the "mystery woman" has the same hair length as Sara James, she "looks like" Sara James? Wow! I had no idea that hair length changes the shape of a person's face! It must their complexion lighter too. .

The woman, Mary, did not, in the photo have the same hair length as Sara James. Now, I have no idea what length of hair PEF or Mary had in early 2005, or if it being winter, if PEF wore a hat on her visit to Tyrone. It is clear, however, that the person LE considered as the mystery woman didn't look like Sara James.

gstickley

03-11-2008, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Oh, yeah, it was DZ. I don't know PF, but does this description sound like her??? (Don't forget to check out the length of Sara James's hair.)

This was taken from Dateline, 05/13/06)
(snip)
Zaccagni: We had a report in the street of shops that in the man’s mind, he was with another woman. He described her as 5’9 , short brownish black hair your length, very good looking, in her 30s - early 40s maybe. He felt they were together but they weren’t romantically together.
(snip) [/*]

Check out the length of Sara James's hair on 05/13/06 (Dateline).

Check out the length of PF's hair at press conference in Apr. 05.

Re-read what Zaccagni, the Detective In Charge of the case, the member of BPD who handled the case, the BPD officer interviewed on Dateline, 05/13/06, said of the description of the MW in Lewisburg. (See above)

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Check out the length of Sara James's hair on 05/13/06 (Dateline).

Check out the length of PF's hair at press conference in Apr. 05.

Re-read what Zaccagni, the Detective In Charge of the case, the member of BPD who handled the case, the BPD officer interviewed on Dateline, 05/13/06, said of the description of the MW in Lewisburg. (See above) [/*]

I did reread. Nothing about looking like Sara James (Maybe there's a Sara James living in Fantasyland.) From what I've seen, the person that they thought it was didn't have hair that long. Also, how long was PEF's hair when at the time of the sighting? When was the sighting? A month prior, three month's prior?

gstickley

03-11-2008, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

The owner of a Tyrone antique shop told The Daily Herald yesterday he had seen the former Centre County District Attorney with an unidentified woman at his shop several weeks before Ray Gricar went missing.

Tom Marshall, owner of I-99 Antiques on Pennsylvania Avenue, said he and his wife live in State College. He said he knew Gricar and saw him and spoke to him at the store weeks before his disappearance.

He said Gricar was with an unidentified woman. Marshall said the woman was not Gricar’s daughter or girlfriend, Patty Fornicola. He said Gricar drove away from the shop in the same car he was using when he went missing in mid-April of last year.

Marshall said he was contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricar’s disappearance and gave authorities details about the encounter. Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing.
[/*]

Try reading this again; especially note the fact ***Marshall knew RG***;

note that***it was not Gricar's daughter or girlfriend***;

note that the woman Marshall saw with Gricar in Tyrone ***matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg***

gstickley

03-11-2008, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I did reread. Nothing about looking like Sara James (Maybe there's a Sara James living in Fantasyland.) From what I've seen, the person that they thought it was didn't have hair that long. Also, how long was PEF's hair when at the time of the sighting? When was the sighting? A month prior, three month's prior? [/*]

Check out the 'yellow shirt' press conference, with PF, LG, TG, BG, CG, & unknown man. Don't know the exact date right now, but it was with week of disappearance; you remember, when they were asking RG to come home. Check out height of PF & her hair length. Then check out the famous picture of PF & MM; again, check out hair length. Also check out the Gricar Missing Person website; check out the hair & height.

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Try reading this again; especially note the fact ***Marshall knew RG***;

note that***it was not Gricar's daughter or girlfriend***;

note that the woman Marshall saw with Gricar in Tyrone ***matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg*** [/*]

Try to understand this. I've seen a photo of the person, that "matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg." That woman does bear a resemblance (not striking) to PEF. Same hair color, same eye color, slightly darker, hair slightly longer (in the photo), same chin. If the woman "matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg," then it could have been PEF; both PEF and LE say it was PEF. I have a feeling that there might have been a record of the trip.

gstickley

03-11-2008, 10:17 PM

So, settle it. Let's see the picture.

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
So, settle it. Let's see the picture. [/*]

Give me her name, and I'll Google it.

gstickley

03-11-2008, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Give me her name, and I'll Google it. [/*]

You're the one bragging about seeing the photo. Surely, you must also have a name, if you know that person was eliminated.

Also, if you've seen 'the' photo, why wouldn't it have been shown to the so-called witnesses in Lewisburg & to Mr. Marshall???? Why wasn't it shown to the public??? Why isn't it out in the public now?? Afraid it might jiggle a memory? Afraid it might be an embarrassment to PF (or the family) like the description was??? Hey, Bud, I didn't even know there was a photo until you started bragging about seeing it. Let's all see it.

day2day

03-11-2008, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

You're the one bragging about seeing the photo. Surely, you must also have a name, if you know that person was eliminated.

Also, if you've seen 'the' photo, why wouldn't it have been shown to the so-called witnesses in Lewisburg & to Mr. Marshall???? Why wasn't it shown to the public??? Why isn't it out in the public now?? Afraid it might jiggle a memory? Afraid it might be an embarrassment to PF (or the family) like the description was??? Hey, Bud, I didn't even know there was a photo until you started bragging about seeing it. Let's all see it. [/*]

LOL this just keeps gettin better and better i swear it does!
The HUGE problem as i see it is they did NOT show the pic because PF might be embarrased (too freakin bad)!! I have NEVER in my life heard of LE caring more about someones feelings than they do about solving a missing persons case. Makes little sense to me....but what does make sense here?

And lets see...bubba saw a pic of "mary" but wants US to tell him her name...that is the best one i have heard in a long long time...

gstickley

03-11-2008, 10:57 PM

I want to know if there was a date given when RG was at Marshall's, or just a couple weeks before RG disappeared. I want to know why the tears; after all, it was a year after RG disappeared. Would have thought all would be happiness & joy, thinking maybe RG had 'walked away with a MW' instead of perhaps being the victim of foul play. After all, it was a year after the disappearance.

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

You're the one bragging about seeing the photo. Surely, you must also have a name, if you know that person was eliminated.

I'm not bragging, just stating fact.

Also, if you've seen 'the' photo, why wouldn't it have been shown to the so-called witnesses in Lewisburg & to Mr. Marshall???? Why wasn't it shown to the public??? Why isn't it out in the public now??

Who said it wasn't? The NAME has never been linked with the photo. That the person who LE thought was the Lewisburg Mystery Woman was never identified publicly as being a friend of RFG's, so I won't. It's sufficient to say that if LE this person was really the Mystery Woman, someone could have mistaken PEF for her, fairly easily.

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
I want to know why the tears; [/*]

I what to know where there is the claim of tears. Was it from the same location that Marshall said the woman looked like Sara James, Fantasyland.

J. J. in Phila

03-11-2008, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Not leaving the car there in the parking lot tells a whole 'other' story.
How did she know he wouldn't return and drive home?
Heck, we're told she is still waiting for him to return and yet not leave the car there for another day or two for him?
If she thought he would return then WHY take the car when the PSP didn't think she should? [/*]

Did you consider the possibility that he left the car voluntarily. It is interesting when tied to the "We'll wait as long as we need to," comment. The question is, what prompted those two things?

gstickley

03-11-2008, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I what to know where there is the claim of tears. Was it from the same location that Marshall said the woman looked like Sara James, Fantasyland. [/*]

At no time did anyone say Marshall said the woman looked like Sara James; Marshall said the woman w/Gricar in his antique shop in Tyrone matched the description of the woman in Lewisburg, described to him by LE.

DZ stated the woman in Lewisburg had hair the length of Sara James.

But, then you know all this.

As to the 'tears':

May. 11, 2006
BELLEFONTE --

(snip)
The sighting may have been kept under wraps, in part, Zaccagni said, out of concern for Gricar's family and loved ones should the revelation raise suspicions that Gricar was having an affair.

The news of the sighting, and the attention it has grabbed, had Gricar's girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, near tears Wednesday. She said she knows the man she planned to spend the rest of her life with did not run off with another woman.

"That is not even a possibility," Fornicola said. "His last words to me in that phone call (on April 15, 2005) was 'I love you.' You don't say 'I love you,' get that same response back and two hours later run off with another woman."

(snip)

gstickley

03-11-2008, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I'm not bragging, just stating fact.

Who said it wasn't? The NAME has never been linked with the photo. That the person who LE thought was the Lewisburg Mystery Woman was never identified publicly as being a friend of RFG's, so I won't. It's sufficient to say that if LE this person was really the Mystery Woman, someone could have mistaken PEF for her, fairly easily. [/*]

Apparently, the police said it (the mysterious photo of someone fitting the description of the MW) wasn't. Try reading the following.

(BTW, how tall is PF?)

May. 11, 2006

BELLEFONTE --

(snip)
But police, after speaking with an acquaintance of Gricar who fit the description of the woman and determining it was not her in the antiques mall, did not pursue the lead further. No public appeal was made to find the woman.

Zaccagni said he revealed the information this week to "Dateline NBC" for a story about Gricar it plans to broadcast at 8 p.m. Saturday in the hopes the publicity would help police find the woman, or any other new lead. The mystery woman was described as between 5 feet 8 inches and 5 feet 10 inches tall, dark haired and "good looking," Zaccagni said.

"It all fits very fluently

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

At no time did anyone say Marshall said the woman looked like Sara James; Marshall said the woman w/Gricar in his antique shop in Tyrone matched the description of the woman in Lewisburg, described to him by LE.

DZ stated the woman in Lewisburg had hair the length of Sara James.

But, then you know all this.

Ahem:

Originally posted by gstickley
And who was it who said the alleged Mystery Woman in Lewisburg was described like Sara James?????

Sara James . . . Patty Fornicola . . . no way they come close resembling each other!!!!! [/*]

As to the 'tears':

May. 11, 2006
BELLEFONTE --

(snip)
The sighting may have been kept under wraps, in part, Zaccagni said, out of concern for Gricar's family and loved ones should the revelation raise suspicions that Gricar was having an affair.

The news of the sighting, and the attention it has grabbed, had Gricar's girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, near tears Wednesday. She said she knows the man she planned to spend the rest of her life with did not run off with another woman.

Near tears in 2006, after it was announced a year later. No indication that she cried when initially told about the sighting. Thank you for clearing that up.

Now, for numerous reasons, I agree that RFG did not run off with another woman.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

It's called 'double talk'. Say one thing and do another. [/*]

Except, in this case, both words and actions seem indicate the same thing.

gstickley

03-12-2008, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Ahem:

Near tears in 2006, after it was announced a year later. No indication that she cried when initially told about the sighting. Thank you for clearing that up.

Now, for numerous reasons, I agree that RFG did not run off with another woman. [/*]

Aah, when was PF initially told about the sighting? Apparently TG & the family hadn't heard anything about it until May 2006, a year after RG disappeared.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

Aah, when was PF initially told about the sighting? Apparently TG & the family hadn't heard anything about it until May 2006, a year after RG disappeared. [/*]

Since it popped up on the CDT Forum in the Fall of 2005, I'd suspect they knew about it, as did JKA, according to her Google Pages.

Serendipitous1

03-12-2008, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by day2day <Snip>
The HUGE problem as i see it is they did NOT show the pic because PF might be embarrased (too freakin bad)!! I have NEVER in my life heard of LE caring more about someones feelings than they do about solving a missing persons case. Makes little sense to me....but what does make sense here? MOO - I do not think embarrassment entered into it at all. Those who read the CDT’s Q&A, or this forum, have known about a mystery woman in Lewisburg since EN posted it in Oct. ‘05. As part of her answer, to an alleged rumor about the possibility that RG was seeing other women, EN quoted DZ...and PF’s direct response. PF was already aware of the witness’ account.

That EN would post it in a public forum, but not as part of a news article, seems to be the CDT's reflection of LE’s attitude...that it was just not considered that important to continue pursuing. And it probably still is not. The whole RG-with-mystery-woman saga stems from one person, who was inside the SoS working. He was not certain of the day, or that it was even RG.

Does it seem reasonable he would remember anything at all about two unremarkable people...among probably hundreds of strangers who passed by him that Fri/Sat...as he was preoccupied with his own work?

gstickley

03-12-2008, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Since it popped up on the CDT Forum in the Fall of 2005, I'd suspect they knew about it, as did JKA, according to her Google Pages. [/*]

(From the same articles as all those previously posted tonight.)

05/13/06
Gricar's nephew, Tony Gricar, of Dayton, Ohio, said Tuesday that he could not initially recall police telling him of the woman seen with Gricar at the antiques market.

"To me, that's an odd little bombshell," he said.

***

Ask Pete about it; he should remember; the article appeared in the CDT.

Serendipitous1

03-12-2008, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
(From the same articles as all those previously posted tonight.) 05/13/06 Gricar's nephew, Tony Gricar, of Dayton, Ohio, said Tuesday that he could not initially recall police telling him of the woman seen with Gricar at the antiques market. "To me, that's an odd little bombshell," he said. I knew about it on 10/13/05, as a result of EN's post in the Q&A. As I recall, there was discussion in this forum as a result of that post...but it may no longer be among these threads. I believe it was offered that free publicity can elicit convenient recollections. And I can imagine that aberration could have been in play in Tyrone as well. MOO

Serendipitous1

03-12-2008, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
Ask Pete about it; he should remember; the article appeared in the CDT. Twas not Pete nor the CDT newspaper...twas Erin and the CDT's online-only forum.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 12:54 AM

As just pointed out, it was reported on the CDT forum in October 2005. I also think the prior line may explain this.

"Gricar's nephew, Tony Gricar, of Dayton, Ohio, said Tuesday night that he could not initially recall police telling him of reports of the woman seen with Gricar at the antiques market."

gstickley

03-12-2008, 12:54 AM

gstickley

03-12-2008, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I knew about it on 10/13/05, as a result of EN's post in the Q&A. As I recall, there was discussion in this forum as a result of that post...but it may no longer be among these threads. I believe it was offered that free publicity can elicit convenient recollections. And I can imagine that aberration could have been in play in Tyrone as well. MOO [/*]

Sorry, S1, EN doesn't mention TG here, only PF.

QGood Morning, Any truth to reports that Mr. Gricar was dating someone else while still living with Ms. Fornicola?
Anonymous, Altoona 10/01/05
APolice say they've received no reliable information that Ray Gricar was dating anyone while living with and seeing Patty Fornicola. Soon after his disappearance, a witness in Lewisburg said he saw Gricar either April 15 or April 16 (he wasn't sure) and he was possibly with a woman, according to Bellefonte police Officer Darrel Zaccagni. Police aren't sure who that woman might have been, and no one has come forward and said "I was with him." Other whispers surfaced soon after Gricar disappeared about a possible relationship with a nurse, and police found out he'd once dated a nurse several years ago. That woman has moved out of state but was contacted by police in her area, Zaccagni said. Another old girlfriend, who now works in Harrisburg, has remained friends with Gricar over the years and had ties to the Lewisburg area. She's also been contacted by police, Zaccagni said, but said she did not see him on April 15 or 16. "No one has come forward and said 'I was dating him' and no one has come forward and said 'Yeah, I saw Ray and someone together a lot,'" Zaccagni said. Patty Fornicola, Gricar's girlfriend and housemate, said she doesn't believe Gricar was seeing someone in addition to her. "I don't know where he'd find the time," she said. "We worked together, we lived together. We were together most of the time."
Erin Nissley 10/13/05

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

So basically you're saying she took the car back, knowing full well he wasn't returning, that he had left her, and she would then offer to wait as long as it would take for him to be 'done'?
Red flags all over the place, JJ. IF LE knows that for a fact, why wasn't the 'search for RG' called off long ago with evidence presented?

IMO, it fits right in there with the rest of the double-talk.......

No, I am saying that there might have been something that would have led PEF to think, at some level, that RFG would both not be returning to the car and would be able to call. Even in May, PEF thought RFG was out there. Why? Maybe wishful thinking, or maybe someone else.

We are 'soulmates' who did everything together so we discussed no plans for the day off and made no plans for the evening together; we only discussed the dog.

In PEF's case, it was because she expected him home. Oh, BTW, he did the same thing part of the day before.

I was worried at 5 pm, so I went to the gym for a few hours.

Not "worried." She thought that RFG had been delayed.

I was worried upon returning at 8:30 pm, so I called my brother, who I knew wouldn't know where my soulmate was at.

Possible after calling RFG and not getting through.

The last place my soulmate was physically seen was at my house so I invited everyone in for a gathering instead of asking LE to dust for prints, photograph and inventory. Reason being....RG would want it that way.

Ah, she's neither the Mayor nor the Chief of Police. She couldn't tell LE what to do. :rolleyes:

I am well aware of proper procedure for collecting evidence, so I voluntarily collected it for LE.

She was asked to by LE. How is she aware of procedure?

I knew RG had previously taken off for a ballgame without telling anyone and returned so I took the car back immediately from Lewisburg leaving him no car.

The Indians were playing in Lewisburg?

Re: Ashes in the car..... 'Neither of us smoked. RG liked a nice car.' (rather than a clean car?)

JMO [/*]

I think JKA was aware of that as well. From her Google Pages:

I was made aware that the Mini-Cooper, when first opened, had had a strong odor of cigarette smoke. I recall remarking that this was certainly a 'red flag' as something unusual, as Ray was well-known to dislike smoking, and it was hard to picture him allowing anyone under any circumstances to smoke inside his car.

gstickley

03-12-2008, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
As just pointed out, it was reported on the CDT forum in October 2005. I also think the prior line may explain this.

"Gricar's nephew, Tony Gricar, of Dayton, Ohio, said Tuesday night that he could not initially recall police telling him of reports of the woman seen with Gricar at the antiques market." [/*]

Your above quote came from the CDT, May 2006, one (1) year after RG's disappearance.

By Pete Bosak
pbosak@centredaily.com

BELLEFONTE -- Previously undisclosed news that missing former District Attorney Ray Gricar may have been seen talking to an unknown woman the day he disappeared set off media firestorm in Bellefonte today.

(snip)
Law enforcement officials were seeking to put a positive spin on the events, saying the information -- that a witness reported seeing Gricar talking to a woman in a Lewisburg antique mall on April 15, 2005, the day he disappeared -- is old news to investigators.

(snip)

It was not clear why the information about the woman or the construction worker was not made public earlier. For more than a week after Gricar's disappearance, Bellefonte police held almost daily news conferences that were covered by both local and national media.

"Hindsight is 20/20," Zaccagni. "If you're going to find fault, yeah, maybe we should have went to the media about this woman sooner. But there was no attempt to hide anything at all. She just fell by the wayside."

Although Zaccagni now describes the witness report as the first credible sighting of Gricar after he went missing, he and Weaver said police were following a plethora of leads at the time and it simply did not come up in communications with the media.

That may, in part, have been out of concern for Gricar's family and loved ones, Zaccagni said, and concerns that they would be hurt if the revelation raised questions about whether Gricar was having an affair.

In addition, Zaccagni said, with all the attention on the case, "I thought she would have come forward if she were really there."

(snip)
Gricar's nephew, Tony Gricar, of Dayton, Ohio, said Tuesday night that he could not initially recall police telling him of reports of the woman seen with Gricar at the antiques market.

"To me, that's an odd little bombshell," he said. He added that he welcomed the attention the news is drawing, and hopes it will lead to new information on the case.

(snip)

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

Well, S1, where do you think the discrepancies lie?

Did TG really know about the MW in 2005, then forget about it until it was brought out in 2006?

Did TG make up his surprise, his "odd little bombshell" remark?

In the crush of events of April 2005, don't you think that he might have forgotten.

Was PF 'near tears' at that time?

Judging from the comments made to EN, no.

Why wasn't the description made public at that time? Apparently, WJAC didn't know about it, apparently other news media didn't know about it, until 05/06.

"DA GRICAR MISSING. LAST SEEN IN LEWISBURG WITH MYSTERY WOMAN! FILM AT ELEVEN ON CHANNEL 6, WJAC!"

Serendipitous1

03-12-2008, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by gstickley <Snip>
Well, S1, where do you think the discrepancies lie? I stopped wondering about DZ long ago. It is clear EN and PF were aware of the Lewisburg 'mystery woman', not later than 10/13/05. I never posted that TG also knew it. Actually, without such online stuff, I have virtually no way of knowing who knew what and when, because...
. . .|
. . .|
. . .V

gstickley

03-12-2008, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - I do not think embarrassment entered into it at all. Those who read the CDT’s Q&A, or this forum, have known about a mystery woman in Lewisburg since EN posted it in Oct. ‘05. As part of her answer, to an alleged rumor about the possibility that RG was seeing other women, EN quoted DZ...and PF’s direct response. PF was already aware of the witness’ account.

That EN would post it in a public forum, but not as part of a news article, seems to be the CDT's reflection of LE’s attitude...that it was just not considered that important to continue pursuing. And it probably still is not. The whole RG-with-mystery-woman saga stems from one person, who was inside the SoS working. He was not certain of the day, or that it was even RG.

Does it seem reasonable he would remember anything at all about two unremarkable people...among probably hundreds of strangers who passed by him that Fri/Sat...as he was preoccupied with his own work? [/*]

What are you saying here, S1??? Isn't that "one person" one of the famous unfallible Lewisburg witnesses that we've all heard about day after day after day after day . . .

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

Your above quote came from the CDT, May 2006, one (1) year after RG's disappearance.

And after more than a year TG might have forgotten a lead that didn't pan out. He wasn't heading out on gloriously relaxing vacation in Happy Valley.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by sherryhefner
For those who believe PF had something to do with RG's disappearance, what are some of the theories you believe might have happened? [/*]

There have been a lot posted, must easily debunked.

I actually did have one possibility, but the evidence seems to have eliminated it.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

What are you saying here, S1??? Isn't that "one person" one of the famous unfallible Lewisburg witnesses that we've all heard about day after day after day after day . . . [/*]

I have yet to see anyone claiming any single witness is "unfallible." And it's "infallible."

Serendipitous1

03-12-2008, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by sherryhefner For those who believe PF had something to do with RG's disappearance, what are some of the theories you believe might have happened? Whoa! Should be interesting. On that, I bid you all a good night...with something to look forward to tomorrow...if this thread should still be here. . . . :seeya:

gstickley

03-12-2008, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

In the crush of events of April 2005, don't you think that he might have forgotten.

Judging from the comments made to EN, no.

"DA GRICAR MISSING. LAST SEEN IN LEWISBURG WITH MYSTERY WOMAN! FILM AT ELEVEN ON CHANNEL 6, WJAC!" [/*]

No, I don't think Tony Gricar would have forgotten, nor CG, nor LG, nor BG, had they heard that information in April 2005.

If there were no tears in April 2005, why the 'near tears' a year later (when the family is made aware of the MW)?

Don't believe your capital-letter explanation had anything to do with why the MW info. did not come out until a year after RG's disappearance. I believe it had to do with certain LE not wanting "the family" to think RG might be having an affair; to the "Hindsight is 20/20", to the fact "so much was going on that it just fell through the cracks" (or words to that effect). Just check back a few posts; I've posted it for you several times tonight.

gstickley

03-12-2008, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

And after more than a year TG might have forgotten a lead that didn't pan out. He wasn't heading out on gloriously relaxing vacation in Happy Valley. [/*]

Sorry, but it's now been three (3) years, & Tony Gricar seems to remember just about everything relating to his uncle's disappearance. I'm pretty sure TG would 'latch onto' info. about a MW. And, he really didn't say in May 2006, "Oh, yeah, I forgot all about that!"

Serendipitous1

03-12-2008, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
What are you saying here, S1??? Isn't that "one person" one of the famous unfallible Lewisburg witnesses that we've all heard about day after day after day after day . . . Prolly just anutter nasty MacRumor, lol! MOO
:seeya:

gstickley

03-12-2008, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I have yet to see anyone claiming any single witness is "unfallible." And it's "infallible." [/*]

You're losing the battle, so you resort to typos??? Well, Bud, go back & check some of your posts, esp. those when you get extra hyper.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

You're losing the battle, so you resort to typos??? Well, Bud, go back & check some of your posts, esp. those when you get extra hyper. [/*]

I believe is said this: I doubt that ANY of the witnesses are 100% right, but I doubt that ALL the witnesses are 100% wrong. That's a huge difference from calling them "infallible" or even "unfallible." :rolleyes:

gstickley

03-12-2008, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I believe is said this: I doubt that ANY of the witnesses are 100% right, but I doubt that ALL the witnesses are 100% wrong. That's a huge difference from calling them "infallible" or even "unfallible." :rolleyes: [/*]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your 1st sentence. :lol:

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

Sorry, but it's now been three (3) years, & Tony Gricar seems to remember just about everything relating to his uncle's disappearance. I'm pretty sure TG would 'latch onto' info. about a MW. And, he really didn't say in May 2006, "Oh, yeah, I forgot all about that!" [/*]

He forgot the purpose of the call, even though it first came public from Lara.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

I'm sorry, I don't understand your 1st sentence. :lol: [/*]

:rolleyes:

My view of witnesses in Lewisburg.

1. All the witness do not have a perfect recollection. They will make a mistake about what they were witnessing.

2. At least some of the witnesses are right about some things that they were witnessing.

Cinderella

03-12-2008, 03:53 AM

"All amazing knowledge for a disabled guy living in Philly." - - J. Karen Arnold, former Assistant District Attorney, Centre County

J. J., Maybe you should change your signature line. JKA seems to be right on.

How would a disabled guy living in Philly get to see a picture of the mystery woman. I think that there has to be more than just a disabled guy living in Philly.

Who showed you the picture and WHY?

I live in Centre County and didn't get to see the picture. Why does someone in Philly get to see the picture? Are you working for PF?

Chump#7

03-12-2008, 10:56 AM

Mornin', Y'all... A little chuckle for you.

Ha!: http://static.crooksandliars.com/2008/03/wrong-on-the-internets.png

**Disclaimer - The site of that URL isn't a site I'd visit independently in a million years; I'm politically agnostic at best. It was just sent to me, and I thought it funny.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

How would a disabled guy living in Philly get to see a picture of the mystery woman. I think that there has to be more than just a disabled guy living in Philly.

Who showed you the picture and WHY?

That's easy. Someone gave me the name and I Googled the photo.

The person herself isn't private. That she was a friend of RFG is private. The press hasn't released it, JKA didn't released it, and I haven't released it.

Chump#7

03-12-2008, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
The person herself isn't private. That she was a friend of RFG is private.

Why?

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Chump#7

Why? [/*]

Because, as of this point, she's not involved, even tangentially. Her sole involvement is that she was was a friend (possibly dated RFG) a number of years ago. I do not feel that anyone who knew RFG in the past, but wasn't involved in his disappearance, should be the fodder for this board. LE, the press, and JKA apparently agree.

LE thought, from the description, that the woman seen Lewisburg could have been her and checked; it wasn't her. Except to look at her appearance and say, LE thought this was the Mystery Woman but ruled her out, she is not relevant.

You have what is relevant, dark hair, dark eyes, complexion a bit darker than PEF's, chin similar to PEF, cheeks less round (I'll add that too). LE though that someone who looked like that could have been the Mystery Woman.

Chump#7

03-12-2008, 12:46 PM

Thanks.

Works for me. I just want to spare everyone pages & pages of you debunking guesses that would occur if not clarified.

Was it because she was a prostitute? E. T. C.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 01:03 PM

Just to clear, while LE considered that someone with dark hair, dark eyes, complexion a bit darker than PEF's, chin similar to PEF, cheeks less round could have been the Mystery Woman, that does not mean that this was the description of the Mystery Woman. It is the description of the person LE thought could have been the Mystery Woman.

J. J. in Phila

03-12-2008, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

I continue to believe the 'other whispers' including the first whisper originated on home turf, misleading to point toward 'ran away with someone else' theory. I believe the ball was immediately tossed to the lead and he only too willingly ran with it.

Well, we know that the Mystery Woman report emerged from Lewisburg. We also know Sloane mentioned the Cleveland Game. Is that "home turf?"

I still haven't heard an answer to who in LE besides Z went to the office with him on Saturday morning or whether Z was given an access code to RG's office computer prior to someone official getting into it.

I believe it was stated that it was probably the system administrator.

A sighting of a man and a woman by someone who didn't even know which day it was made it all the way to national news? What an insult.

Part of it was possibly, and even probably, to generate interest in the story.

Obviously if it was believed, and RG never showed up again, it then misleads to the belief RG was either the expert sneak or a mastermind at deception, neither of which I buy into.

I easily "buy into" the fact RFG was exceptionally intelligent. I also buy into the fact that the "better friend" thinks it could have been walkaway. If it was a walkaway, there would be evidence, and from everything I've found out, that has yet to be done.

I believe the origins of the plan, whatever it was, had to have originated in Bellefonte and no problem can be solved at the same level as the problem. A team of outsiders needs to take the task in hand as soon as possible or it will continue to sit stalled, just as it has for nearly three years.

I actually think Rickard can, if not solve it, at least eliminate possibilities.

Locals cannot investigate their own.

LE, at local level, does. They don't call in the Pittsburgh Police to investigate something that happens on my block. Unless you actually suspect it was a BPD officer, this isn't a valid argument.

I'll also point out that there was a change in personnel since then.

day2day

03-12-2008, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
So, settle it. Let's see the picture. [/*]

Sometimes people type before they think. Bubba is one of them.

day2day

03-12-2008, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

'Ridgway, an early suspect in the Green River killings, passed a polygraph "test" in 1984 and continued his killing spree. It was ultimately DNA evidence that linked him to the killings in 2001.

Melvin Foster, another early suspect in the case, took a polygraph test in September 1982 and failed. Ridgway's confession (and DNA evidence) exonerates him.'

"That industry's most outspoken opponent of polygraph screening was Dr. Alan P. Zelicoff, a senior scientist at Sandia's Center for National Security and Arms Control. He is also a medical doctor, so his opinion carried even more weight. ***"Every first-year medical student knows that the four parameters measured during a polygraph—blood pressure, pulse, sweat production and breathing rate—are affected by an unaccountable myriad of emotions," he explained, "But there is not one chapter, not one, in any medical text that associates these quantities in any way with an individual's intent to deceive."***

'Nowadays, very few courts admit polygraph results as evidence, because their accuracy is far too questionable; and laws put in place in the late 1980s prevent private employers in the U.S. from using polygraph tests in employee screenings. ***Yet the FBI and other federal agencies still utilize the testing widely, despite the very strong evidence that the results are unreliable, and practically useless.***'

"The test's post-interview, conducted after the machine is turned off, is often the most telling portion of the process. At this point the interviewer will ask questions in such a way that the subject may believe that he/she has been "caught" by the machine, which may cause them to admit to wrongdoing."

Anyone who has studied or worked in any branch of LE would know that, but I was wondering today.......

Do local precincts, such as BPD, or the County Sheriff, have their own equipment? Anyone happen to know?
JMO [/*]

Great post LW. I would also love to know if the BPD has a machine (and if anyone there knows how to use it)