RAY GRICAR, Missing Centre County DA, cont. [Archive]

Cloudbuster

12-22-2007, 01:55 AM

LW the truck donation is interesting especially when compared with the home not being partly in his name and the car that he drove being presented as a gift which didn't include his name. When you look at it some would think he was advoiding owning anything titled.

Found in the CDT a interesting case that RG would have been involved back in 2003 and on till disappearance. Interestingly person used to be from NJ. Currently now a local. I find the back dates interesting. But here is the current story.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/295115.html

I understand your frustration of not being able to get a answer. I think all the posters are wonderful people cause each and everyone has done and tried everything possible to try! I do believe in my heart that it will come out. I have this dumb saying and it goes like this : A secret is something that wants itself known. With enough of us I do believe it will be known!!!:rose:

J. J. in Phila

12-22-2007, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

We have a local DA missing, who was approaching retirement and seemingly happy to be doing so.

Let's be blunt, we have multiple reports of a change in attitude by RFG, from between a week and a month, prior to his disappearance. Spotts saw an off hand comment, but the rest of the staff say some real changes.

It appears there was some 'undermining' going on, beginning early in March with the only case date offered by the judge........only date available, when RG planned on being on vacation. Ms. Spotts said he acted 'strangely' at that time. If RG was asked to go along with it and refused, due to his own belief a crime had been committed, and continued to research and build the case, now against the new defense attorney's version of what happened, IF someone higher up ordered him off the case, what recourse would he have but to drop it even if he believed a crime had been committed? Could he be arrested for not doing so? If he truly believed a crime had been committed, how strong would he stand in his commitment to the truth? Strong enough to give up everything?

First of all, there are no "higher ups," as it's RFG's call to prosecute.

Second, you have problems beyond the attorney change.

i. This was basically a case where medical experts would testify that a crime took place. The two prosecution medical experts give conflicting accounts of the death, one insisting there was head trauma, the other existing there wasn't.

ii. The defense medical experts are stellar, and their conclusion is backed up by a blood test. One literally wrote the text book on shaken babies and the other was profiled in both Time and Smithsonian.

iii. The judge, looking at the evidence gathered under RFG's watchful eye, says that there is not enough evidence to support the death penalty.

Now, RFG must have had some idea of this in the weeks before 4/15/05.

I've seen no link on the truck donation and would question its relevance it it could be found. I would also question the time frame of after RFG disappeared.

Politigal

12-22-2007, 03:25 AM

What bothers me most about this case, is that there isn't one single piece of evidence that verifies that Ray Gricar was anywhere after Thursday night 4/14/05 -- not one.

The entire case has hinged on Patty Fornicola's word, her tears, and her polygraph.

Quite a shame - IMO

Cloudbuster

12-22-2007, 03:48 AM

J. J. in Phila

12-22-2007, 12:20 PM

Factually, there is evidence, and multiple witness reports of RFG after Thursday night. Most of them put him in Lewisburg, but one person who knew RFG saw him in Bellefonte in a different car. Another witness, a judge who is a former police office, saw him, in the different car at the same location, but is unsure of if it was 4/14 or 4/15. (I think we're up to 8-10 who saw him in specific areas after 4/14.) While I do not believe that all the witnesses are 100% right, I do not believe that all the witnesses are 100% wrong.

His car, a Mini Cooper, was found with only his prints in it more than 50 miles away, in Lewisburg. There were witnesses that placed the car as arriving in the afternoon of 4/15/05 and that placed RFG there as well. His scent was discovered in the parking lot.

The phone call was difficult, though not impossible, to fake; it had a 40%-50% chance of failure if it was staged.

Serendipitous1

12-22-2007, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
What bothers me most about this case, is that there isn't one single piece of evidence that verifies that Ray Gricar was anywhere after Thursday night 4/14/05 -- not one. The entire case has hinged on Patty Fornicola's word, her tears, and her polygraph. Quite a shame - IMO [/*]MOO:

I agree the evidence made public thus far has not been conclusive; that there also seems to be no public evidence which proves RG was not driving the car on the morning of 4/15. I am confident LE and (though to a lesser extent) RG's family, understand all of the evidence, clues, scenarios and implications.

The shame is that there has been no resolution yet. Also, as demonstrated in this and other forums, the often (seemingly) flippant attitude of LE, and the failure to inform, answer legitimate questions, and recognize the potential for a conflict of interest to exist in the DA's office, has seriously undermined public confidence in the investigation. Although...it is difficult to gauge that sentiment when so few voices are heard.

We have all, no doubt, invested inordinate amounts of time and effort...not so much in the hope of being able to solve this case, as in keeping the possibilities, and the investigation (with its perceived weaknesses), in public view. LE must be held accountable. For that to happen, other voices need to be heard.

Cinderella

12-22-2007, 01:39 PM

The part that really gets me is, if someone in Centre County or elsewhere murdered Ray Gricar and covered it up, then anyone is at risk for the same thing to happen to them.

Sometimes it might be time to keep quiet about happenings, but this is dangerous especially if corruption is going on. The public is supposed to be the ultimate boss. The public should know what has taken place or else a grand jury should meet. Keeping the public in the dark is not good, it's dangerous.

Also P.F. did not believe that C. F. saw Ray that day at the courthouse. She thinks that it might have been someone that looked like Ray. Does P.F. words persuade LE to decide certain things, and why is someone close to the victim being given information. It doesn't make sense.

I am citing a case in Philipsburg. Dana Bailey. Her parents stated that they weren't told very much of anything.

Serendipitous1

12-22-2007, 04:38 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j_k5TKCPYLI

Politigal: Love hearing "Ave Maria", especially this time of year. And Josh Groban 'kinda grows on ya'...I heard him sing on the television this morning also...although, he could drop that facial-stuble, IMHO.

J. J. in Phila

12-22-2007, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
The part that really gets me is, if someone in Centre County or elsewhere murdered Ray Gricar and covered it up, then anyone is at risk for the same thing to happen to them.

This is the main reason I post.

Also P.F. did not believe that C. F. saw Ray that day at the courthouse. She thinks that it might have been someone that looked like Ray. Does P.F. words persuade LE to decide certain things, and why is someone close to the victim being given information. It doesn't make sense.

Do you have a link? TG has questioned the sighting, but I wasn't aware that PEF even knew about it prior to the story appearing in the press.

Cinderella

12-22-2007, 06:39 PM

J. J., P. F. stated it to me when I saw her that time. So no I don't have a link.

Politigal

12-22-2007, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., P. F. stated it to me when I saw her that time. So no I don't have a link. [/*]

I had posted about this a couple of months ago, as I recalled reading something to the effect that there was another man who resembled RG in the courthouse, in that time frame. I had first thought Tony posted it but when he asked for backup, I couldn't locate it.

I do recall reading though that Zaccagni said Fenton's sighting could not be verified in any way.

Cinderella --- I was always curious if Patty spoke to Fenton personally about her sighting.

Do you know if she did? One would think, working so close to one another in the courthouse, that the occasion may have presented itself.

Politigal

12-22-2007, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=j_k5TKCPYLI

Politigal: Love hearing "Ave Maria", especially this time of year. And Josh Groban 'kinda grows on ya'...I heard him sing on the television this morning also...although, he could drop that facial-stuble, IMHO. [/*]

I've always loved that song, and when you posted the Celine Dion link the other day, it also had a duet with Groban on there, and that's how I found his version of Ave Maria.

So, thx to you. :)

Serendipitous1

12-22-2007, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

I've always loved that song, and when you posted the Celine Dion link the other day, it also had a duet with Groban on there, and that's how I found his version of Ave Maria.

So, thx to you. :) [/*]YVW...another "must" experience, IMO. I brought it over, to listen to again...at least I am tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK9nt1NF7Nw

Politigal

12-22-2007, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

And yet the day before he disappeared, we have SPM stating she and RG emailed back and forth and he was joking around with her.

Does it boil down to there being only two places where there seemed to be a 'change in attitude'; at home, taking longer naps and at the office?

I don't recall any mention of the prison board members or LG or anyone else outside of the office commenting on his acting 'different'.

"Was it strictly limited to those two locations, home and office, and when the 'staff' was no longer around, no problem being in a joking mood, as evidenced by what SPM said? If the problem was strictly 'office-based', what would explain it showing up at home if it wasn't the same problem in both places?
JMO [/*]

We musn't forget the park....

So, at home (with Patty,) the office and at the park (with Patty)...

"with Patty" seems to be key

J. J. in Phila

12-22-2007, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

And yet the day before he disappeared, we have SPM stating she and RG emailed back and forth and he was joking around with her.

[quote]

There is a BIG difference between reading an e-mail and seeing the actions of the person directly.

[quote]
Does it boil down to there being only two places where there seemed to be a 'change in attitude'; at home, taking longer naps and at the office?

Where else was he that a change would have been noticed? Seriously, he wasn't at his local "club" where the members noticed a change.

I don't recall any mention of the prison board members or LG or anyone else outside of the office commenting on his acting 'different'.

One of the members apparently didn't realize that RFG was there for the first three meetings that year. Again, there is not a lot of contact with RFG outside of that context.

J. J. in Phila

12-22-2007, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by logicworks
It had been said that 'Friday night out' was a regular occurrence, yet seemingly there were no plans that we are aware of for the 'Friday night out' on 4/15. Was there any break in that routine in the previous weeks immediately prior to the disappearance? If there was, how many times prior to that had there been a 'break' in the routine?
JMO [/*]

I've posted this on another tread, but it does not seem to have been a "standing date." I think Sloane described it a frequent.

You can check the other thread.

J. J. in Phila

12-22-2007, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., P. F. stated it to me when I saw her that time. So no I don't have a link. [/*]

Okay, I didn't know that.

That was still well after it was reported in the media. She may have discounted it after it had been reported.

UndertheRadar

12-23-2007, 12:55 AM

"On the personal side, he was very reserved and kept things to himself," said Scott Conklin, a county commissioner who like a number of employees had dealings with Gricar right before he vanished. "**But he showed no signs of unusual behavior in the weeks leading up to this,** so it is baffling."

[S]ome local people - like attorney Bryant - think that with his retirement imminent and with possible symptoms of depression, that Gricar may have met the same fate as his brother.

But others say [that] Gricar was looking forward to stepping down and **was not acting any different from usual right up until the day he vanished.** County commissioner Chris Exarchos saw Gricar at a meeting the day before he disappeared and said "there was nothing remarkable about that meeting."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

********

This is not to say Gricar did not enjoy the occasional puzzler along with the Grey Goose martini he invariably ordered while awaiting his table at the bar of the Gamble Mill Inn.

"**Every Friday,** he and Patty would sit right over there," said Barb -- she wouldn't give a last name -- the bartender. "They would play Trivial Pursuit cards."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496817-156.stm

********

For the last couple of Friday afternoons at the dark and historic creekside eatery called Gamble Mill Restaurant, bartenders have kept glancing over at Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar's usual spot at the bar.

"They look over at the little spot he used to sit in," with his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, playing their **weekly game** of Trivial Pursuit as he sipped a Grey Goose martini, said the restaurant manager, Andi Heidt-Nixdorf. "When every Friday comes along, they think they're going to see him."

But no one in this Victorian-tinged, mountainside county seat is known to have seen the 59-year-old Gricar - a button-down, lifelong prosecutor looking to retire at year's end - in the last 28 days.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/new...s/11635483.htm

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

I had posted about this a couple of months ago, as I recalled reading something to the effect that there was another man who resembled RG in the courthouse, in that time frame. I had first thought Tony posted it but when he asked for backup, I couldn't locate it.

I do recall reading though that Zaccagni said Fenton's sighting could not be verified in any way.

Cinderella --- I was always curious if Patty spoke to Fenton personally about her sighting.

Do you know if she did? One would think, working so close to one another in the courthouse, that the occasion may have presented itself. [/*]

Pgal, All she stated when asked about whether she thought that was Ray at the courthouse was that she didn't believe that was him. She thought that C.F. might have seen someone that looked like Ray, but wasn't Ray. I never asked her if she spoke to C.F. about the sighting. I didn't ask her why she felt that way. We just talked about maybe some other question at that point, but not about the sighting. I am sure that she would have explained her reason to me if I had asked her.

Serendipitous1

12-23-2007, 01:19 AM

And the CDT (4/30/05) that (supposedly according to PF): "The telephone conversation...was brief, and he made no mention of where he was headed, when he'd be back or any plans for the evening or weekend".

Maddening...quite maddening. MOO

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 01:31 AM

This is what really bothers me. Newspaper accounts. I know at one time, I was interviewed by the CDT. They grouped a lot of my sentences together to make it look like something else. So I know first hand, how the newspaper reports things. It is a shame that reporters can't get the story straight. It also makes the other person look bad at times.

So did P.F. change her story or did the newspaper get it wrong. It started to happen right from the beginning. First he was going to take a half day off, then it was a whole day, etc.

sherrijean981

12-23-2007, 01:34 AM

Just for the record, Cind, the truth, doesn't get you in jail!

Serendipitous1

12-23-2007, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
Just for the record, Cind, the truth, doesn't get you in jail! [/*]And neither does slipshod reporting! MOO

Serendipitous1

12-23-2007, 01:43 AM

BTW, welcome back UtR. Did you happen to see day2day while you were gone?

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 01:58 AM

Question, I know this is a little off the subject, but did anyone ever have someone on the internet that just would not leave a person alone. I have someone that I specifically stated that I don't want any contact or correspondence with that person, but this person will not leave me alone. What does a person do? Does Coldwater deal with this issue?

sherrijean981

12-23-2007, 02:02 AM

I am also having the same problem as Cindi.

But it isn't against the law to answer a question or state a fact on the Ray Gricar forum, is it?

And if you are talking about me answering your pm, then you are the one in the wrong! Put me on ignore like you can do, but I can still make a comment to something you are saying about PF.
And will continue to do so. Remember I was with you in Bellefonte that day. I know what all was said, so watch what you are telling and how you are telling it. I know!

sherrijean981

12-23-2007, 02:13 AM

TG, I now understand how you felt!

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 02:26 AM

I stated the truth of the meeting with P.F. I don't know why I am being attacked about telling the truth. I guess that is another mystery.

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
"On the personal side, he was very reserved and kept things to himself," said Scott Conklin, a county commissioner who like a number of employees had dealings with Gricar right before he vanished. "**But he showed no signs of unusual behavior in the weeks leading up to this,** so it is baffling."

[S]ome local people - like attorney Bryant - think that with his retirement imminent and with possible symptoms of depression, that Gricar may have met the same fate as his brother.

But others say [that] Gricar was looking forward to stepping down and **was not acting any different from usual right up until the day he vanished.** County commissioner Chris Exarchos saw Gricar at a meeting the day before he disappeared and said "there was nothing remarkable about that meeting."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

********

This is not to say Gricar did not enjoy the occasional puzzler along with the Grey Goose martini he invariably ordered while awaiting his table at the bar of the Gamble Mill Inn.

"**Every Friday,** he and Patty would sit right over there," said Barb -- she wouldn't give a last name -- the bartender. "They would play Trivial Pursuit cards."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496817-156.stm

********

For the last couple of Friday afternoons at the dark and historic creekside eatery called Gamble Mill Restaurant, bartenders have kept glancing over at Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar's usual spot at the bar.

"They look over at the little spot he used to sit in," with his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, playing their **weekly game** of Trivial Pursuit as he sipped a Grey Goose martini, said the restaurant manager, Andi Heidt-Nixdorf. "When every Friday comes along, they think they're going to see him."

But no one in this Victorian-tinged, mountainside county seat is known to have seen the 59-year-old Gricar - a button-down, lifelong prosecutor looking to retire at year's end - in the last 28 days.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/new...s/11635483.htm [/*]

UTR, I agree with you. I always thought that they went to eat at the Gamble Mill on Friday's. I am wondering why they would be counting down the days to Ray's retirement when it was months away.

J. J. in Phila

12-23-2007, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Surely he must have conversed with others during that previous month. I seriously doubt that a busy prosecution attorney such as RG was limited to contact with only his staff and SO. If others outside of the office and home noticed a difference, why haven't they come forward?
JMO [/*]

Spotts wasn't a staff member, however. She was with the judge's office. The bulk of the contact would be with the SO or the office staff.

As the quotes from the restaurant people, it conflicts with Sloane's statement. It does not seem like a set date.

And, as for the restaurant being like a social club, other than ordering, he wasn't too much interaction with the staff. If he played cards and talked at a club, maybe the fellow members may have noticed.

Cloudbuster

12-23-2007, 03:11 AM

JJ I have a question for you? If you was to drop all 3 scenarios and you was only dealing with foul play---with what evidence that they have presented in your own opinion what would you suspect happened and how? I know thats going to be hard to answer but roughly if you only had foul play to go with in this case what do you feel would be reasons or possibilities on how or why?

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Spotts wasn't a staff member, however. She was with the judge's office. The bulk of the contact would be with the SO or the office staff.

As the quotes from the restaurant people, it conflicts with Sloane's statement. It does not seem like a set date.

And, as for the restaurant being like a social club, other than ordering, he wasn't too much interaction with the staff. If he played cards and talked at a club, maybe the fellow members may have noticed. [/*]

I have eaten at Gamble Mill. Their food is outstanding. The service is outstanding. I am sure that Ray knew everyone that worked there. I am sure that the staff could sense his moods.

UndertheRadar

12-23-2007, 03:20 AM

S1, thank you, and Merry Christmas.

Cind, that's what I've read in a number of sources, that the Gamble Mill was a regular thing on Friday nights.

JJ, Sloane would have a lot less knowledge than the **bartender** and the **manager** of the Gamble Mill. You're the one that keeps pointing out that he was "out on disability." "Barbara" and Andi Heidt-Nixdorf actually worked in the bar and restaurant. Unless Sloane was invited to go with RG and PF every time they went out to dinner at the Gamble Mill, how would he know better than the employees there?

Politigal

12-23-2007, 03:26 AM

So good to have you back UTR.....

I've missed your posts, and you missed my "cyber" Christmas gift on the regular board... :)

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 03:27 AM

Whe I ate at the Gamble Mill the staff was very friendly and very much wanting to please their patrons. They would chat with people while they were serving or taking orders. They just didn't take orders. They went out of their way for you.

J. J. in Phila

12-23-2007, 03:30 AM

Here is what Sloane said:

Sloane said Gricar was looking forward to retirement. It would mean more time to see his daughter and more time to see the leaves change in Vermont and pop into antique stores to find a treasured addition to his collection of antique cameras.

Gricar was so excited, in fact, that he and Fornicola would often get together at a restaurant on a Friday night, order drinks and count down the days to retirement.

“They would toast how close it was getting,” Sloane said. “He knew how many days were left.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7592249/

UTR, are you suggesting that bartender and waitress kept a log of RFG's and PEF's coming and goings? Did the check the credit card bills before making that statement (assuming that RFG always used a charge card)?

One interesting thing is that everyone mentions stopping for drinks, not a meal. I can understand fairly easily about a bar being an end of the week type of thing, when both were working. Both were not working on 4/15/05.

UndertheRadar

12-23-2007, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
So good to have you back UTR.....

I've missed your posts, and you missed my "cyber" Christmas gift on the regular board... :) [/*]

I will check it out, Pgal. Figured I'd better get back here to help keep order.

Have a wonderful Christmas . . .

J. J. in Phila

12-23-2007, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Whe I ate at the Gamble Mill the staff was very friendly and very much wanting to please their patrons. They would chat with people while they were serving or taking orders. They just didn't take orders. They went out of their way for you. [/*]

Did they carry on in depth conversations with you?

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 03:39 AM

If I would have wanted an in-depth conversation, I am sure that they would have. Depending on how busy they are, yes they are there to please. They are professional people doing a quality job of keeping the customers happy.

We ordered drinks at the table. I don't remember seeing a bar although there probably was one.

You have to remember that Bellefonte isn't Philadelphia. The people in Bellefonte are very friendly. It is a small town and a lot of people know each other.

By reading the article, the people seem to miss RG and PF. I am sure that it was a place where RG and PF could relax.

UndertheRadar

12-23-2007, 03:39 AM

JJ, what difference does it matter whether the wait staff carried on in-depth conversations with Cind?

Bellefonte is small town America. RG was the DA of Centre County, a highly visible profile in a restaurant he visited regularly.

Two regular employees both noted his "regular" night and described him as coming in "every Friday night." One article even described OTHER patrons of the restaurant as looking for Gricar to come in on Fridays after the disappearance.

Sounds like it was a regular thing.

Now if you want to argue that there might have been some Friday, some time, that he and PF didn't go to the Gamble Mill on Friday because they were out of town or had other plans, fine. But when you've got two employees of the restaurant and other patrons all saying that this was what they did "every Friday night," why argue with that?

Oh, yeah, and Merry Christmas.

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 03:41 AM

UTR, I am also glad to have you back.

Pgal even got me a cyber gift of flannels with pugs. How did she know?

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 03:44 AM

Merry Christmas to all too. Don't tell anyone, but I saw Santa tonight. I didn't get to sit on his lap though. :santa:

J. J. in Phila

12-23-2007, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ I have a question for you? If you was to drop all 3 scenarios and you was only dealing with foul play---with what evidence that they have presented in your own opinion what would you suspect happened and how? I know thats going to be hard to answer but roughly if you only had foul play to go with in this case what do you feel would be reasons or possibilities on how or why? [/*]

The Murder Scenario probably would be closest. It explains most of the witnesses. It makes two assumptions about the witnesses:

1. Some of the witnesses are wrong about the day they saw RFG (or saw someone who looked like him).

2. Fenton and Grine are completely wrong.

I would add one detail. There is a good possibility that K was recognizable to the residents of Centre County and didn't want to be recognized or that RFG didn't want to be seen publicly with K.

About the only people I could rule out is that inner circle of friends and co-workers. Excepting one, none regularly appeared in the media and all could have had access to RFG at the office.

UndertheRadar

12-23-2007, 03:52 AM

Thanks, Cind. Enjoy the flannel pugs.

JJ, that's not even a direct quote from Sloane; it's a paraphrase. And it's in an article from msnbc, a source so trustworthy that the same article says Gricar and PF had been living together for four years. (According to every other source, they hadn't even been DATING for four years when RG disappeared.) But you can go ahead and rely on it if you want. I'll take the multiple sources and direct quotes from the employees at the Gamble Mill, thanks.

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 03:57 AM

UTR, so Pgal pushed J. J. off on you. Then again, someone has to keep him straight. I think that you are the person to do that. I think in a way he kinda likes it, but he wouldn't admit it. I bet he missed you when you were gone even. :santa:

J. J. in Phila

12-23-2007, 09:09 AM

While article does paraphrase Sloane, it does note "drinks" rather specifically. There is a difference between going out for drinks after work as opposed to going out for dinner or to having a "standing" dinner date.

They might have normally gone out for drinks after work, but both were not at work that day.

While many servers are friendly, very few have really in depth conversations. That has been not only my experience in Phila, but in numerous, even moderately busy restaurants across the state.

UndertheRadar

12-23-2007, 11:46 AM

It's abundantly clear from the Pittsburgh and Philadelphia news articles that sitting at the bar and playing Trivial Pursuit were precursors to dinner at the Gamble Mill.

It's also clear from the msnbc article that the focus with regard to Sloane's views is on Gricar's anticipation of retirement:

Sloane said Gricar was looking forward to retirement. . . . Gricar was so excited, in fact, that he and Fornicola would often get together at a restaurant on a Friday night, order drinks and count down the days to retirement.

“They would toast how close it was getting,” Sloane said. “He knew how many days were left.”

Gamble Mill isn't even mentioned by name in the msnbc article. Since the point of the passage is to highlight that RG was looking forward to retirement, I'm not surprised there's no mention of DINNER at the Gamble Mill being a regular Friday night event.

What's clear about this particular Friday is that we have no mention anywhere that there were plans to go to the Gamble Mill as they did "every Friday" according to the bartender and the manager.

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 11:53 AM

Here is a link with images of the Gamble Mill. The staff really isn't that many people. So I am sure that all of the staff knew RG.

Also I don't think that R.G. and P.F. would just go to the Gamble Mill for a drink and then go home and cook or cook before they went to the Gamble Mill.

http://www.gamblemill.com/

Politigal

12-23-2007, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
And the CDT (4/30/05) that (supposedly according to PF): "The telephone conversation...was brief, and he made no mention of where he was headed, when he'd be back or any plans for the evening or weekend".

Maddening...quite maddening. MOO [/*]

It really is....

It's these little things that just don't add up IMO.

Serendipitous1

12-23-2007, 05:52 PM

The Northumberland County DA sometimes carries a concealed weapon...because he has been threatened, and been accosted by people he has prosecuted.

The Snyder County DA owns several guns and has a gun permit. He acknowledged there is always a concern in his line of work...which tends to make bad people mad.

http://www.dailyitem.com/homepage/local_story_356231513.html?keyword=topstory

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
The Northumberland County DA sometimes carries a concealed weapon...because he has been threatened, and been accosted by people he has prosecuted.

The Snyder County DA owns several guns and has a gun permit. He acknowledged there is always a concern in his line of work...which tends to make bad people mad.

http://www.dailyitem.com/homepage/local_story_356231513.html?keyword=topstory [/*]

I am sure that after Ray's disappearance that many more D.A. and maybe attorneys will start to carry a concealed weapon. I am also thinking of the Judge, that Nancy Grace was friends with,
that the criminal went into his courtroom and shot and killed him.
I guess that there is more security at the Courthouses then their used to be.

Plus how many illegal guns are sold over the internet.

If it happens to be a courthouse like Centre County where janitors prop the doors open at night, it just might happen in a place like that.

J. J. in Phila

12-23-2007, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Here is a link with images of the Gamble Mill. The staff really isn't that many people. So I am sure that all of the staff knew RG.

Also I don't think that R.G. and P.F. would just go to the Gamble Mill for a drink and then go home and cook or cook before they went to the Gamble Mill.

http://www.gamblemill.com/ [/*]

I can easily see them stopping off for a drink after work, and maybe spending an hour just relaxing. Though I've never really been into that, but I've had numerous co-workers that did.

J. J. in Phila

12-23-2007, 07:58 PM

UndertheRadar

12-23-2007, 08:00 PM

No, JJ. If all he's doing is stopping in for a few drinks, he could stay at the bar, and that's not what was happening:

This is not to say Gricar did not enjoy the occasional puzzler along with the Grey Goose martini he invariably ordered while **awaiting his table at the bar** of the Gamble Mill Inn.

Why wait for a table?

From the link Cind provided:

Time to come out and **enjoy great food and libations at the Timber's Bar in the Gamble Mill Restaurant!** If you didn't know already, the Timber's Bar offers a lighter style menu with soups, salads, sandwiches and small plates from 5 to 8 pm weeknights and 5 to 8:30 pm on the weekends. Feel free to make a reservation for the limited bar tables! So, stop by soon to visit our bartenders Mollie and **Barb,** catch up with friends or make new ones!

He was clearly ordering a drink at the bar itself while **waiting for his table,** where he planned to eat a meal.

Good try. No cigar.

UndertheRadar

12-23-2007, 08:03 PM

Serendipitous1

12-23-2007, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

And yet the PSP-CIA review concluded that RG was at "no inherent risk" because of his position as DA. Go figure. [/*]A total crock of donkey dung, IMO. Does not make a lick of sense. What world is (are? syntax problems?) the PSP living in?

Politigal

12-23-2007, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

And yet the PSP-CIA review concluded that RG was at "no inherent risk" because of his position as DA. Go figure. [/*]

If Gricar was murdered though, I don't believe that a "stranger" was involved.

Cinderella

12-23-2007, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

If Gricar was murdered though, I don't believe that a "stranger" was involved. [/*]

I disagree with J. J. and I totally agree that if Ray was murdered that it wasn't by a stranger.

Cloudbuster

12-23-2007, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

The Murder Scenario probably would be closest. It explains most of the witnesses. It makes two assumptions about the witnesses:

1. Some of the witnesses are wrong about the day they saw RFG (or saw someone who looked like him).

2. Fenton and Grine are completely wrong.

I would add one detail. There is a good possibility that K was recognizable to the residents of Centre County and didn't want to be recognized or that RFG didn't want to be seen publicly with K.

About the only people I could rule out is that inner circle of friends and co-workers. Excepting one, none regularly appeared in the media and all could have had access to RFG at the office. [/*]
THANK YOU JJ. Im trying to see what you think if we really only had foul play to go with. I appreciate that you took time to answer that!!! Now I had someone listen to something that I have tried to figure out and that person is like me believes in things not so logical and this person only knows Rays first name and she knew nothing and I mean nothing about this case. There is a word that I have tried to hear. She did and blew me away cause she don't know crap about names or people with this case.

I had a spirit (ghost) literally tell me to tell them and the word I thought it was is:
Sparkles or Markles or Starkles.

My real person said no its Marshall???? Now for the life of me I don't know what to think or how someone who totally knew nothing about this came up with that word. Problem is that name is pretty common everywhere in many places. I don't know what to think. You can laugh i know i would if I was reading this in reverse but Im sorry whatever the spirit is it wants it known. Im saying it out of being faithful in what I believe to be very important to this spirit or ghost. This message is very important IMO even if i have no idea why but it is!

:rose:

Politigal

12-23-2007, 11:23 PM

ADA Lance Marshall ?

Serendipitous1

12-23-2007, 11:50 PM

This goes out especially to ladyheartfixer...and maybe also to LM:
http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=Jek6iP6AuAQ&feature=related

Cloudbuster

12-24-2007, 12:56 AM

Pgal I have no idea. I know when I usually get things that don't always make any sense to me and only part of what I have does. Anything I had up in quotation marks did come from this spirit , ghost and inside myself i guess you know who im thinking it is. I can't claim that cause i have no way to prove that.

If the person who knew nothing about this at ALL would be correct then Marshall could be right but I can't say it's the ADA one cause I don't really know and I have reason to believe RG did leave lewisburg and headed either back or possibly toward another place, I can't figure that out but I know that a woman did go to this Marshall, Sparkle, markle. Starkle place. She was upset and called them murders and they gave her a bogus story of what RG stumbled on, and it sounded like to me they told her she crossed (unsure of that part). I don't think she knew RG was there and the above word (marshall. sparkle. starkle. markle) was told to start one. Someone gave the direct order to start one. it was a machine sound that was started.
Its all paranormal stuff but something wants me to tell that name and I still didn't figure out who Barbara Carter (thats what it sounded like) even is. She was mentioned when someone said barbara Carter is on the phone and then i heard that pig. If this is related to RG at all then I also know he planned to go back and explain all that he knew to PF. Seems he never got there. he knew he was being crossed and seemed like he was holding it inside. It centered around a investagation that had drugs involved but it wasn't a regular person RG seemed after. It was bigger than that IMO. Something to do with the legal system, some kind of corruption. it involved things like" I stole enough"
"I stole so much it pains me" " I stood in horror" " I stole some coke" . ??????????????????????????? :rose:

J. J. in Phila

12-24-2007, 01:34 AM

UTR, did it ever occur to you that they might want to sip drinks at a table. It's a bit easier to talk that way; the would be facing each other.

Cind, I didn't say a "stranger," I said not one of the staff and probably not one of the "inner circle."

That inner circle is basically people that were proximate to him and his close friends. About the only one it wouldn't definitely exclude is Walker, though I'd expect that Warker could stroll into the office and see RFG, most of the time; Walker and RFG could be seen together in Centre County and attract undue attention.

CB:
Starkles is a wig shop in Australia, so, if your voice is correct, GS better start training some kangaroos to put up flyers. ;)

http://www.hotfrog.com.au/companies/Starkles

Assuming that everything I've been told off site is correct, I might raise walkaway a bit, but not to more than 45% likely. Likewise murder would not drop below 40%.

The key regarding murder or walkaway is going to be, is there evidence that RFG walked away; did he have the means to get out of Lewisburg? If the answer is yes, there is about a 90% that it would leave evidence. If the answer is no, walkaway drops to just a bit above suicide, if that high. Then we focus on murder.

Cinderella

12-24-2007, 01:49 AM

J. J., I totally disagreed with you and your Gamble Mill scenerio. I think that it is exactly how the newspaper stated. I think that the staff knew Ray very well from Ray frequenting Gamle Mill on Friday nights.

UndertheRadar

12-24-2007, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., I totally disagreed with you and your Gamble Mill scenerio. I think that it is exactly how the newspaper stated. I think that the staff knew Ray very well from Ray frequenting Gamle Mill on Friday nights. [/*]

I think you're right, Cind. It is how it was stated in the newspaper. It's clear from the link you provided that tables in the Timber Bar area could be reserved for dinner. It's widely known in Centre County that Gamble Mill is one of the top spots for fine food, and it's also known from other articles that RG would eat lunch there with LG when she was visiting.

JJ just wants to make it sound as if RG and PF didn't have a habit of going to the Gamble Mill for dinner on Friday night. He's tried the "only on Friday nights when they worked" routine before and that didn't pan out. So now he's attempting the "they just went there for drinks" routine.

Neither one holds water, IMO.

Cloudbuster

12-24-2007, 02:23 AM

JJ starkles would be only a 10 percent on that name I give Sparkles a 50 percent- Marshall a 50 percent- and Markles a 40 percent. And the way it all sounds to me ya there would be reason to think RG walked away but I don't see that at all. I think everyone thinks he did and with good reason. How can he have and left no signs of any trace of funds ect. oh yea I forgot yea they would think he had money but its not the case IMO JJ.

You know what I think JJ? I think they should be using a metal detector that can detect a whole car. Where's the other 35 missing ones?

Merry Xmas all!!!:rose:

PS if you figure which word Sparkles-Marshall-Markles-Starkles then ya might want to see if there is woods around back cause thats what my ghost was told when he wanted to make a call. The ghost was told "around back in the woods that will be your call". Thats when things got bad IMO. Okay I know you don't believe in ghosts thats okay but Im just tellin what my ghost said out of being loyal. If Im wrong Im wrong but I don't think so. Too many strange happening since this case for me. I know what he wants and Im trying to tell ya but ya I understand your end too. Fair enough!

Serendipitous1

12-24-2007, 02:52 AM

JKA: “...Ray became a little rigid in his positions on things. That annoyed a lot of defense attorneys in particular.”...“It’s sometimes a thin line between taking a firm stand in a particular case, and becoming rigid and treating every case of that type alike.”

JKA: “Bellefonte PD was well-aware of the volatile nature of one of the parties to a then-pending Gricar prosecution - both from having been specifically given the information after his disappearance and from their own records of having sent officers to the offices of a local attorney who called the DA’s office to express fear that that individual was intending to appear at his office with ill intent.”

LiM: “The District Attorney, Ray Gricar, is seeking the death penalty!”...“Alejandro is 100% innocent and we have the medical evidence that proves this to be so. There is absolutely no reason to hold him for trial when we already have key medical evidence that exposes the blatant negligence and incompetence of the physicians who were responsible for our baby’s care. Please join myself, Alejandro, our families, friends, and medical experts in requesting that the District Attorney’s Office of Centre County, Pennsylvania FREE AN INNOCENT MAN. The state of Pennsylvania is committing a grave miscarriage of justice. In the prosecutors’ over-zealousness for a conviction, along with their pursuit for 'justice,' they are persecuting an innocent man. FREE ALEJANDRO MENDEZ! An innocent man’s life is at stake. He has already suffered the loss of his only son and should not be further victimized by these heinous and false allegations.” There was a total of 1,058 signatures (with some, arguably, belligerent comments) as of 3/6/05.

lustorumanimae: “...from what I’ve heard, the VM situation during the year of investigation was handled not by G or LM, but the now-‘disappeared’ KA, including the medical vetting, and up until the time charges were filed and VM was picked up.”... “my information would suggest she was totally onboard as to the appropriateness of 1st degree, the strength of the evidence and was no advocate in defense of VM.”...“I believe we can safely assume that if [the] theory of ‘pressure’ from ‘within the office’ would prove true, it was coming from some other source. What I have heard said was that she was less than convinced about the dp request, given VM’s age, lack of other convictions, that kind of thing. At any rate, obviously G did ask for the dp, took the case and of course still had it when he disappeared.”

CDT (Q&A): “In the death penalty case against Alejandro Mendez Vargas, Mr. Gricar appeared to be the lead prosecutor. Who, if anyone, from the DA's office was second chair in that case prior to 4/18/05? Who was assigned (first and second chair) from the DA's office in that case, and when, during 2005, after 4/15?” PB: “That would be Centre County Assistant District Attorney Lance Marshall. It is my understanding Lance was on that case the entire time. Where are you going with this?”

CDT (11/23/05): “Judge Brown dismissed the first-degree murder charge last month because he didn’t think prosecutors could show that Vargas acted with the specific intent to kill or that the killing was done with premeditation. After Vargas’ plea Tuesday, a third-degree murder charge was essentially dismissed. One of Vargas’ attorneys...told Brown that experts working for the defense filed medical reports that showed that Vargas’ child died as a result of a blood disorder, not shaken baby syndrome. He made a motion to file the reports as exhibits, but Assistant District Attorney Lance Marshall asked that they be kept confidential.” “Marshall, in a statement to the press after the sentencing, said the sentence may seem strange but that investigations in the past six months brought the case down a different path than originally envisioned by prosecutors.”

OOBrett: The analysis could be that of “a loved one [who] is facing the death penalty, [whose] education may not have been the best, not necessarily totally rational, and...[having] no experience with the nuances and intricacies of the legal system. Maybe it’s worse yet if English is not [their] first language.”....“So you could have an irrational act committed by someone that doesn’t have a complete understanding of the facts, but does think that getting rid of Gricar gets rid of the death penalty.”

MOO - Or someone who had caught wind of the precursor: But for Ray Gricar, the death penalty would go away. One possibility.

http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=Jek6i...feature=related

Cloudbuster

12-24-2007, 03:16 AM

S1 a very good eye opener post!!!!:)

J. J. in Phila

12-24-2007, 03:27 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., I totally disagreed with you and your Gamble Mill scenerio. I think that it is exactly how the newspaper stated. I think that the staff knew Ray very well from Ray frequenting Gamle Mill on Friday nights. [/*]

The the staff at the restaurant says drinks; RFG's co-worker and friend say drinks.

They could "frequent" Gamble Mills and not always have dinner there, or have a standing date.

J. J. in Phila

12-24-2007, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

OOBrett: The analysis could be that of “a loved one [who] is facing the death penalty, [whose] education may not have been the best, not necessarily totally rational, and...[having] no experience with the nuances and intricacies of the legal system. Maybe it’s worse yet if English is not [their] first language.”....“So you could have an irrational act committed by someone that doesn’t have a complete understanding of the facts, but does think that getting rid of Gricar gets rid of the death penalty.”

MOO - Or someone who had caught wind of the precursor: But for Ray Gricar, the death penalty would go away. One possibility.

I think there are huge problems with this. First, we know where Vargas was and his wife was not only a native speaker but a teacher. She has to understand most of the facts.

Second, the attorney shift was ongoing on 4/15; The paperwork, making it official, was filed in April. Anyone close to the Vargas case would have known this. They would also see a rather robust defense (even without the problems the prosecution had).

Third, from what I see Manchester never moved to have the trial dismissed. It had happened before, and that has been discussed enough for JKA to note the accuracy.

Could someone have been so enraged about the situation that they killed RFG? Sure, but you could say this about any case he had.

Cloudbuster

12-24-2007, 04:00 AM

Another word and im turning in is this
"Robert" and what sounds like a A like this "Robert A" and that word is heard alot. Another word is "payroll" and something about a "insurance deal".

Something about someone pays the phone bill and something about putting off the call.

Someone wanted my ghost to go back and watch someone and my ghost got mad and said"you lied" seems to me some kind of deal was a trap IMO. Seems my ghost stumbled on Sparkles-marshall-Markle-Starkle and thats where it was not good for my ghost.

My ghost was watched from the third house from the top and knew this. And the others stood around at some point and watched including from the woods. So wherever that fits I have no idea cause I never been to Lewisburg. Someone paid a lot of money for this. So maybe you can tell me im crazy but I know different and I know Im not. You can laugh cause Im used to that lol.

Serendipitous1

12-24-2007, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
This goes out especially to ladyheartfixer...and maybe also to LM:
http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=Jek6iP6AuAQ&feature=related [/*]Trying again to link (same song...different day) - Cat Stevens, "Father and Son":
http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=Jek6iP6AuAQ

Cloudbuster

12-24-2007, 11:42 PM

Merry Christmas to all of you!!!! I was looking earlier at a Christmas box which we write down our prayers and date it and place it in that box not to be read till next Christmas. I had some prayers answered on my list but noticed one prayer of this case is not solved yet and it saddens my heart!

I feel we are getting real close and I hope I don't have to open the prayer box next year and see this case to remain unsolved! I know each and every one of you have had at least some kind of sign about this case. JJ maybe even you. None of you would be here if this case wasn't bothering you inside yourself. That feeling is the energy your picking up on of a person that needs your help. Some will say we can't make a difference but I believe if you try and presist that you can make a difference! Yes Virgina I do believe in Miracles!!! I know I have had some and have seen other peoples miracles. Most of us believe in God but yet we can't prove he exists. To believe in God does not make a person crazy. I have seen officials attend church this evening so obviously they believe in God. What exactly is God? He IMO is undescribable but they say we was made in his image. So if God is energy and holy SPIRIT then what are we?

Prayers go out to all of you tonight!! Deep prayers for the family of Ray!!! May God help us all as we continue in finding the truth!!

Amen! Amen! God be with you all!!:rose:

Serendipitous1

12-25-2007, 12:20 AM

.
. . . . . . . . . .☼
. .. . . . . . . .* *
. . . . . . . . * ☼ *
.. . . . . . . * * * *
.. . . . . . * ☼* *☼*
.. . . . . ☼ * * ☼ * ☼
.. . . . . . . . . :candy:
Merry Christmas
To You and Yours

Politigal

12-25-2007, 01:22 AM

I am literally praying for miracles tonight.

The doctors were going to take my newborn grandson off Ecmo today - which is a type of life support system. But they've decided to wait until Wednesday.

We're praying for his left ventricle to heal, for all his internal bleeding to stop, for his kidneys to function and a whole myriad of miracles.

He's been thru about 4 surgeries since he was born December 11th and he's still fighting.

I believe in my heart that he *is* a miracle baby, but I know he needs divine intervention....

Please include him in your prayers.

ty

J. J. in Phila

12-25-2007, 02:27 AM

A Merry Christmas to everyone.

CB, I have had no "sign" but I think my interest in this case speak for themselves. I use to hold public office in the same part of the state that RFG held his offices. If it, whatever it is, could happen to him, it could have happened to me. If this a walkaway or suicide, I'd only be mildly interested. The possibility of murder, unpunished, troubles me greatly.

Cinderella

12-25-2007, 03:50 AM

Just got home from spending time with my brothers and sisters and their families. I got to see all of them. Some of the relationship are very good, while others lukewarm. I decided that this year that I wasn't going to let that stop me from seeing all of them. So I swallowed my pride and had a very pleasant evening.

Jesus was born to for everyone to embrace no matter what kind of a person you are. He freely forgave us all we have to do is reach out to Him.

A Special Merry Christmas to all and don't allow things and circumstances to separate you from your loved ones. So many people are suffering in the world. The list of missing people go on and on. Count your blessings if this has never happened in your family.

To the Gricar Family and Patty Merry Christmas and may justice be served. My prayers are the same as Cloudbuster's, that by next year, we will know what happened to Ray. I think of all the posters who keep Ray in the spotlight. I am praying for Miracles.

Pgal, I pour my prayers out for your grandbaby who is a blessing sent from God. Just Remember.....

Matthew 19:26

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Mark 10:27

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

:wreath: :wreath:

Politigal

12-25-2007, 05:33 AM

ty for the prayers....

On another note, I can't sleep and was perusing old articles. I had never noticed this line before:

http://www.centertimes.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3781.html

Fornicola is checking Gricar's personal e-mail account for activity as well, Zaccagni said. So far, there has been none.

So, she obviously knew Gricar's user and password....

And once again, considering the "dependent tendencies" that were mentioned by another poster, and considering PF's bad luck with her ex, do you think she found an email that she didn't like reading - prior to the disappearance???

day2day

12-25-2007, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
I am literally praying for miracles tonight.

The doctors were going to take my newborn grandson off Ecmo today - which is a type of life support system. But they've decided to wait until Wednesday.

We're praying for his left ventricle to heal, for all his internal bleeding to stop, for his kidneys to function and a whole myriad of miracles.

He's been thru about 4 surgeries since he was born December 11th and he's still fighting.

I believe in my heart that he *is* a miracle baby, but I know he needs divine intervention....

Please include him in your prayers.

ty [/*]

My littleone and i are including your grandson in our Christmas prayers..we believe in miracles..and healing! If there is anything we can do pgal..just pm me.

"Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us." (Ephesians 3:20)

Serendipitous1

12-26-2007, 01:01 AM

What a wonderful day of sharing and caring...the stuff of memories...even as some are (remain) heartbroken.

Diamonds and Rust..."I've already paid." This goes out to (perhaps) two continents tonight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGMHSbcd_qI

Cloudbuster

12-26-2007, 01:10 AM

Pgal I been praying most of the night and thinking about that little one needing a huge miracle. I couldn't sleep last night thinking about him and my heart was heavy. Keep your faith on this mircle happening thats important. I believe it is my moms prayers that have kept my sister alive cause she been thru nine lives already. Its that kind of faith.

JJ I understand what your saying. Yes that would be troubling.

S1 I loved your colorful design!!! I wish I knew how to do that.

Cind I can't bare another year of this case and I know the answers are here but the details scetchy. If I knew which Marshall for sure and what kind of relationship RG and he had. Its real obvious to me what happened to RG. Its really important to this spirit that the name be known.

I want to share something about this. I had prayed to understand which name it is that I was supposed to tell about. I knew all the majority of the details from this spirit but not all and i couldn't understand how I was to give a name that I didn't understand (Sparkles-Markles-Starkles) I talked to this ghost spirit and told it how can I deliver a message when i don't understand the name. Strangly the person who showed up at my house is strange in itself. This person don't come here and ended up staying a few days. I ran what i heard by the person and she said he is saying Marshall. I fell off my chair. She knew nothing but Rays first name and thats all she knew about this case. My point is I had ask for a answer on the name and seems to me the answer came thru someone totally non involved in this case??? What am I supposed to think? So we get our answers from all different sources if we are looking and playing attention. Now this presents more questions lol.

:rose:

sherrijean981

12-26-2007, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Pgal I been praying most of the night and thinking about that little one needing a huge miracle. I couldn't sleep last night thinking about him and my heart was heavy. Keep your faith on this mircle happening thats important. I believe it is my moms prayers that have kept my sister alive cause she been thru nine lives already. Its that kind of faith.

JJ I understand what your saying. Yes that would be troubling.

S1 I loved your colorful design!!! I wish I knew how to do that.

Cind I can't bare another year of this case and I know the answers are here but the details scetchy. If I knew which Marshall for sure and what kind of relationship RG and he had. Its real obvious to me what happened to RG. Its really important to this spirit that the name be known.

I want to share something about this. I had prayed to understand which name it is that I was supposed to tell about. I knew all the majority of the details from this spirit but not all and i couldn't understand how I was to give a name that I didn't understand (Sparkles-Markles-Starkles) I talked to this ghost spirit and told it how can I deliver a message when i don't understand the name. Strangly the person who showed up at my house is strange in itself. This person don't come here and ended up staying a few days. I ran what i heard by the person and she said he is saying Marshall. I fell off my chair. She knew nothing but Rays first name and thats all she knew about this case. My point is I had ask for a answer on the name and seems to me the answer came thru someone totally non involved in this case??? What am I supposed to think? So we get our answers from all different sources if we are looking and playing attention. Now this presents more questions lol.

:rose: [/*]

CB, I am glad you got to spend time with her through the holiday.

We had a wonderful time at my daughter's. My granddaughter was there with Preston, who had spent 3 days with us. My sister was also included. First she saw my daughters home and decorating and home re-do talents. Her home looked beautiful for the holidays!

It isn't about the food although it was very good. The company and conversation, laughter and stories and lots of memories were a big part of it. Preston, who just turned 4, received a new guitar, and he decided to surprise us with his playing and singing of parts of his favorite songs. He was awesome and had standing ovations! :) :rose: A pleasant addition to the evening.

I hope everyone's holiday continues pleasantly and enjoy the New Year. Maybe the New Year will bring health, happiness, financial stability and good surprises for all of us. For PF and the Gricar family I wish the best, and that the New Year brings an end to the pain and wondering you are all going through. May 2008 bring everyone their wish of RG being found.

Good night!

Serendipitous1

12-26-2007, 02:50 AM

Good night SJ...and thanks. No aspersion...just a hobo's lullaby:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J72hq9kLyUQ

Cinderella

12-26-2007, 03:05 AM

J. J., Thinking of you tonight and I hope you had the best Christmas possible considering the circumstances. I bet that you had a lot of calls of people wanting you to come to their house.

Also thinking of all the broken hearted, lonely, sick people this Christmas.

I know I have to count my blessings.

Cinderella

12-26-2007, 03:10 AM

Thinking of everyone else and appreciating the conversations in posts that we had this year. If feels like family. S1, I love your posts and how you can make the designs.

Thinking of Ray and family. :rose:

Missing some posters who haven't been posting lately.

BTW, S1, can you design a champagne glass for New Years?

sherrijean981

12-26-2007, 09:08 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Good night SJ...and thanks. No aspersion...just a hobo's lullaby:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J72hq9kLyUQ [/*][/QUOTE

None taken. Wonderful photo's and song. Reminds me of photo's taken when my gggreats put the railroad in from Lewistown to Huntingdon.

It also reminded me of Mashuga's homeless people in Wilkes-Barre, PA

http://www.fotolog.com/mashuga/

Laws

12-26-2007, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
ty for the prayers....

On another note, I can't sleep and was perusing old articles. I had never noticed this line before:

http://www.centertimes.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3781.html

Fornicola is checking Gricar's personal e-mail account for activity as well, Zaccagni said. So far, there has been none.

So, she obviously knew Gricar's user and password....

And once again, considering the "dependent tendencies" that were mentioned by another poster, and considering PF's bad luck with her ex, do you think she found an email that she didn't like reading - prior to the disappearance??? [/*]

My thoughts & prayers to you & yours Pgal. Am truly hoping that you all were prepared for the worst by the medical staff out of caution & that only the best & beyond are able to be performed for the best outcome.

I truly wish the same for the Gricar family & am fully in agreement with your suspicions toward the probability of PEF's involvement for so many reasons that are reasonable to reasonable persons. I also wish that patterns would be pursued by those in position to establish them & they understand that this pursuit is more important than Mr. Gricar's privacy. These persons through investigating thoroughly, regardless of personal beliefs & appearances are in position to get to the truth they only need be willing in spirit of mind beyond heart.

Cinderella

12-26-2007, 10:30 AM

Laws, nice to see your post. I have missed you, where have you been? I hope that you don't stop posting. :seeya:

gstickley

12-26-2007, 10:47 AM

On this day after Christmas, one of the most melancholy days of the year, I want to wish each of you happiness & hope for the new year.

For the past year or so, I've also come to think of you all as "family" too. I've shared with you your joys, sadnesses, anger, disgust, and just about every other emotion, so we are family, whether we like it or not. Just like in real families, there are people who are friends, people you just want to smack, people who make you happy, people who make you sad. But, the one thing we all have in common is the desire to find out what happened to Ray F. Gricar. And it has become abundantly clear that "our family" are probably the only people actively trying to do so.

I am sorry about all those who appear to have left and am very glad for those who continue the quest. I am sad for the family of Mr. Gricar. And, I am especially saddened for those of us who have undergone major unhappy events in our own lives. I certainly hope the new year brings comfort to all of us.

Don't ever give up.

Laws

12-26-2007, 08:44 PM

That is sweet of you Cinderella. No, I haven't stopped coming by at all just don't have much to add to what has been previously posted.

You know the frustration is just so high. Had an even close to reasonable investigation been perfomed it would have been so different. But this case is so frustrating in that it reeks of corruption of a system unwilling to do it's job & hundreds of people unwilling to do ALL THEY CAN DO, they didn't even do a miniscule amount to uncover the truth of Ray Gricar. It's unheard of to me to find the case of a dedicated public servant being treated in this manner. If only I could justify this in my mind, but I can't. It's beyond inconceivable.

You know one thing that has been an ongoing thought is did anybody who had experienced that horrible smell at the SOS ask what it was? Did it smell like sewage? Wasn't it on the bottom floor of the SOS?

I continue to read if not daily, every other day so hang in there all, am hoping for divine intervention. Sometimes it happens.

day2day

12-26-2007, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
On this day after Christmas, one of the most melancholy days of the year, I want to wish each of you happiness & hope for the new year.

For the past year or so, I've also come to think of you all as "family" too. I've shared with you your joys, sadnesses, anger, disgust, and just about every other emotion, so we are family, whether we like it or not. Just like in real families, there are people who are friends, people you just want to smack, people who make you happy, people who make you sad. But, the one thing we all have in common is the desire to find out what happened to Ray F. Gricar. And it has become abundantly clear that "our family" are probably the only people actively trying to do so.

I am sorry about all those who appear to have left and am very glad for those who continue the quest. I am sad for the family of Mr. Gricar. And, I am especially saddened for those of us who have undergone major unhappy events in our own lives. I certainly hope the new year brings comfort to all of us.

Don't ever give up. [/*]

Great post, gs!! That pretty much sums up my thoughts exactly!
..Shasta Groene has taught me that miracles still exist today and so I still believe that LG and TG will get the answers they deserve.
It will be in "His" time...and sadly not a minute sooner!

J. J. in Phila

12-26-2007, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Laws

You know one thing that has been an ongoing thought is did anybody who had experienced that horrible smell at the SOS ask what it was? Did it smell like sewage? Wasn't it on the bottom floor of the SOS?

I think SJ called it in.

For me the frustration is the apparent lack of investigation of the "inner circle" (except looking at PEF), and the lack of looking to see if RFG possibly purchased a vehicle.

Cinderella

12-26-2007, 10:21 PM

I was just searching old news about Ray and for some reason this article struck me as odd. Maybe I am the only one that feels this way and there is probably a good explanation for what is written, but it just kind of bothered me. Now I feel stupid, but here goes.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2004/01/01-15-04tdc/01-15-04dnews-03.asp

--------------------------------
Snip
But after more than two decades serving the community as head prosecutor, Gricar announced last week that he plans to retire at the end of his fifth term in 2005. He said the announcement is not related to any recent events.

Gricar said he had known since his last re-election that he was going to retire, but thought it was too early to go public with it.

"I have always wanted to retire at 60; that has been my plan from the start," Gricar said. "And it was very hard to keep my retirement a secret, believe me."
Snip
_____________________

Why would Ray feel that he had to keep his retirement a secret?

Ok, now someone can explain and I will feel dumb for posting this.
I swear I didn't drink this Chiristmas.

:patriot:

Politigal

12-26-2007, 11:00 PM

I agree 100% Logic.

Patty was allowed to search for his clothing.

Patty was allowed to go upstairs to retrieve the laptop (that mysteriously disappeared.)

Patty was allowed to monitor his personal email.

Patty was allowed to wait 3 months til being polygraphed.

Patty was allowed no forensic investigation at the home.

The bottom line is Patty was allowed....

----
On another note, my grandbaby passed away this afternoon. Maybe it was simply God's plan to spare him from future suffering.

rasta-girl

12-26-2007, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
I agree 100% Logic.

Patty was allowed to search for his clothing.

Patty was allowed to go upstairs to retrieve the laptop (that mysteriously disappeared.)

Patty was allowed to monitor his personal email.

Patty was allowed to wait 3 months til being polygraphed.

Patty was allowed no forensic investigation at the home.

The bottom line is Patty was allowed....

----
On another note, my grandbaby passed away this afternoon. Maybe it was simply God's plan to spare him from future suffering. [/*]
I'm sorry about your grandbaby:(

Cinderella

12-26-2007, 11:04 PM

Don't forget Logic, PF also cleaned out his office. I found that hard to swallow. Why would they allow her to do that? First of all if she is grieving, then that would be too overwhelming.

PF is in every part of the scenerio.

I really wonder if Ray told PF early on the he was going to retire. Maybe he wanted to keep it a secret from her.

Never in my life have I heard that LE told even a mother or father everything they knew.

I am close to my sons and daughter, but I don't have their password to e-mails and I never did. It is like checking someone's dresser drawers for what a person has.

What can I say but BARF.... Sorry I just threw up.

day2day

12-26-2007, 11:05 PM

Cinderella

12-26-2007, 11:07 PM

Logic, Sorry to say, but what a way to ruin the day after Christmas. :cuss:

Cinderella

12-26-2007, 11:11 PM

Pgal, I am so sorry about your grandbaby. He must have been so special that God wanted him back. Just think no more pain or tears for him. My deepest Sympathy.

Laws

12-26-2007, 11:30 PM

I'm truly sorry for your loss Pgal.

Regarding PEF, who the hell spends 3 hours at a gym on a Friday night?

Nobody in my world EVER. There is so much that makes no sense it makes me dizzy with anger. These IDIOTS never deserved someone of the caliber of Ray Gricar.

Politigal

12-26-2007, 11:47 PM

ty all for the prayers & condolences...My daughter-in-law needs them more.

----

I was reading thru some of JJ's old posts tonight because it bugs me that he can be so contradictory at times.

He has always touted the witness sightings of Gricar at Lewisburg.

However, he did not put any stock into the mystery woman/RG sighting at Tyrone.

And, he posted this back on 3/30/07 at 7:57am

First, if take eyewitness testimony as Gospel, we have to conclude that RFG drove off in the metallic colored care, went to Scranton or Wilkes-Barrie and then to Michigan. I <*>do not take eyewitness testimony as Gospel.

Why then, does he put so much stock into the Lewisburg witnesses?

IMO - it's because he's simply trying to *sell* that premise - that RG was in Lewisburg.

But - I do not believe that Ray Gricar went anywhere near Lewisburg that day.

IMO, Ray Gricar was not alive that day - period. And there is not one iota of evidence proving otherwise.

Cinderella

12-26-2007, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by Laws
I'm truly sorry for your loss Pgal.

Regarding PEF, who the hell spends 3 hours at a gym on a Friday night?

Nobody in my world EVER. There is so much that makes no sense it makes me dizzy with anger. These IDIOTS never deserved someone of the caliber of Ray Gricar. [/*]

I totally agree. I thought that LE could handle it without any help. Apparently NOT! Poor Ray, what if he was trying to get away from her. It makes you wonder how many more things that she did.

J. J. is right. It wouldn't be a problem for PF to use Ray's computer to send an e-mail and tell people that he isn't coming into the office.

PF checks his e-mails, but doesn't drive to Lewisburg looking for him OR did she? Maybe she found him?

:no: :no:

gstickley

12-26-2007, 11:57 PM

I've always found it a bit peculiar that the neighbors, friends, co-workers were not interviewed in the first couple days, but LE (?) appeared hell-bent on getting into RG's computers on the 1st day. I've always wondered exactly what they were looking for.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Don't forget Logic, PF also cleaned out his office. I found that hard to swallow. Why would they allow her to do that? First of all if she is grieving, then that would be too overwhelming.

I have not seen that anyplace and I believe that the office was checked first by LE, according to JKA.

Also, did you consider that they might have maintained a single e-mail account, or that neither account was password protected.

Also, any e-mail would have a copy in the server, either sent or received. There would be a backup well outside of the household. I believe it's been reported that LE did check that.

gstickley

12-27-2007, 12:52 AM

Gricar far from forgotten in Fornicola's eyes, heart By Halle Stockton Collegian Staff Writer

Patty Fornicola never imagined she would be cleaning out her boyfriend's office alone, without him by her side, ready to begin a new life together. Instead, last week, she gathered missing District Attorney Ray Gricar's possessions and left an empty office for the new district attorney.

<snip>
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/12/12-09-05tdc/12-09-05dnews-09.asp

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 01:02 AM

I''m sorry about your loss, P'gal.

Laws, you said:
"Regarding PEF, who the hell spends 3 hours at a gym on a Friday night?"

I don't know of anybody who said she did.

The question is, did PEF have enough time to just to get to Lewisburg and back. The fastest route is I-80, and with no traffic, it would take slightly over one hour each way.

Now, Chump and UTR have complained about the delays on I-80, but I'm assuming virtually no traffic or delays. I will also note that there will be al least slightly heavier traffic at 4:30-5:30 PM in Bellefonte, so that slightly over two hours time is conservative in the extreme. It also would not take into account of her doing anything in Lewisburg other than turning around and driving back to Bellefonte. If you factor in homicide and hiding the body, that would add perhaps several hours.

We kind of know when PEF made some of the calls, from 8:00-8:30 PM onward. (I don't discount the possibility that she made calls earlier.) Now that gives her from 4:30 PM to 8:30 PM to driive to Lewisburg. If she shows up to the gym at 5:00 PM and leaves at 6:00 PM, that only leavers her about 2.5 hours. If she shows up at the gym at 7:00 PM, that is also a 2.5 hour gap. It's very hard for her to have gotten to Lewisburg and done anything.

We don't know the times of all the calls. I would suspect that she called sometime before 5:30 PM and sometime between 6:30 PM and 8:00 PM, but the would have come from the house. LE did check both the cell and house phone records. (I suspect that this is part of the reason that LE eliminated her.)

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Laws
That is sweet of you Cinderella. No, I haven't stopped coming by at all just don't have much to add to what has been previously posted.

You know the frustration is just so high. Had an even close to reasonable investigation been perfomed it would have been so different. But this case is so frustrating in that it reeks of corruption of a system unwilling to do it's job & hundreds of people unwilling to do ALL THEY CAN DO, they didn't even do a miniscule amount to uncover the truth of Ray Gricar. It's unheard of to me to find the case of a dedicated public servant being treated in this manner. If only I could justify this in my mind, but I can't. It's beyond inconceivable.

You know one thing that has been an ongoing thought is did anybody who had experienced that horrible smell at the SOS ask what it was? Did it smell like sewage? Wasn't it on the bottom floor of the SOS?

I continue to read if not daily, every other day so hang in there all, am hoping for divine intervention. Sometimes it happens. [/*]

I was the one who commented on the awful smell in the SOS. It did not smell like sewage to me. It smelled like a dozen dead animals had crawled in the cubby hole and died. It was on the lowest level. It was in the one room that was tucked back in. There was furniture in the room but the further you went in the room it was very nasty. there was a back wall with a hole under it, that went back in, covered with a piece of lattice, you could see into the hole some. I couldn't stand the smell anymore and had to leave before I got sick.

I did get in touch with the PSP in Lewisburg/Milton, whichever one it was, he said they were over the rirver bridge from the SOS. I also called the PSP in Centre County, State College. I don't remember now who it was I spoke with. After they found out the smell was there this year and last year when I was down there, they didn't seem to worry about it. Guess a body wouldn't smell that long??

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
Gricar far from forgotten in Fornicola's eyes, heart By Halle Stockton Collegian Staff Writer

Patty Fornicola never imagined she would be cleaning out her boyfriend's office alone, without him by her side, ready to begin a new life together. Instead, last week, she gathered missing District Attorney Ray Gricar's possessions and left an empty office for the new district attorney.

<snip>
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/12/12-09-05tdc/12-09-05dnews-09.asp [/*]

Thank you gstickley. :beer:

J. J. seems to only remember what he wants to.

I also wonder if his things are still around the house and if his clothes are still in the closet?

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
I've always found it a bit peculiar that the neighbors, friends, co-workers were not interviewed in the first couple days, but LE (?) appeared hell-bent on getting into RG's computers on the 1st day. I've always wondered exactly what they were looking for. [/*]

Probably the message:

**Meet me in Lewisburg on Friday afternoon.

Signed,

I. M. A. Killer**

Seriously, they checked all communications devices, office, cell, and home phone records. Probably they were looking:

1. Someone wanting to meet with RFG.

2. A threatening message.

3. Someone he may have contacted to help him walk away.

On looking at the computers very early on was one of things LE did right.

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 01:12 AM

J. J.,

How are you so sure that Ray didn't go missing Thursday evening? That would give plenty of time. Their had to be an accomplice or a "PORN BUDDY".

Edited to add, I guess he wouldn't need a "PORN BUDDY" since PF knew his password.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
Gricar far from forgotten in Fornicola's eyes, heart By Halle Stockton Collegian Staff Writer

Patty Fornicola never imagined she would be cleaning out her boyfriend's office alone, without him by her side, ready to begin a new life together. Instead, last week, she gathered missing District Attorney Ray Gricar's possessions and left an empty office for the new district attorney.

<snip>
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/12/12-09-05tdc/12-09-05dnews-09.asp [/*]

Please note that was in December 2005, and I'm not certain if was "cleaning" it or removing his personal effects. I presume the office had been cleaned sometime in more than 6 months.

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Confused here.....something is wrong with this 'story'.

It was my understanding LE came to the house on Sunday (possibly evening?) to confiscate the home computer and PF was the one to ask them at that time if they ALSO wanted the laptop?

Are we to believe they confiscated the home computer and then gave it back to her prior to contacting 'someone' with computer knowledge, who could read his emails? Why would they return it to her and then ask her to search his emails for them? 'Story' doesn't jive.

Did they ever take it with them and if they didn't, then it must not have been the computer they went there looking for on Sunday, meaning they DID go there for the laptop to begin with? Surely if they took it they found someone to read ALL the emails.

Unbelievable if ANY AND ALL of the computers used by RG weren't immediately confiscated and turned over to the PROPER authorities, completely free of any conflict of interest, including those who did the 'gathering' of the office computer, as well as home computer(s).

PF, NO way, NO how, should have EVER been the one to search through his emails. Why would Z have placed her in the role of 'investigator'?

So now we have her investigating his home, his clothes, his possessions, his emails. What else was she permitted to investigate and report back to LE on?

The vehicle should have NEVER left the SOS lot nor the door even opened prior to both her and the dog's arrival AT THE SCENE, NOT at the LE station where the car had been towed. I will guess she was also who collected the scent item for the dog(s). The seemingly 'coordinated' time on Sunday seems far too sychronistic to be mere coincidence.

What a ridiculous statement 'Every stone has been overturned' becomes if ANY of the stones were turned over by PF. Unheard of in a good investigation, let alone an investigation into the disappearance of a county DA. I suppose next we'll hear she was permitted to 'dust for prints' and found none. :rolleyes:
JMO [/*]

RG might still have been using the laptop for emails. And if his set up is like mine, there could be 10 email addresses set up and she might not have known all of them. Even an AOL, MSN or any other type put on that she wasn't aware of.

Since the laptop was gone, I think it could all be on that computer and no one could check it out. Would there be a way to access the emails on the laptop from the new personal computer? When I was visiting my sister I was checking my emails from her computer but both were desktops. I have no idea how a laptop works.:shrug:

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 01:16 AM

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Please note that was in December 2005, and I'm not certain if was "cleaning" it or removing his personal effects. I presume the office had been cleaned sometime in more than 6 months. [/*]

Sounds to me as if she removed his personal effects and also looked at around in everything for all of his stuff. I wonder if she looked through his roladex? I am sure that she didn't clean the room like a janitor would.

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I have not seen that anyplace and I believe that the office was checked first by LE, according to JKA.

Also, did you consider that they might have maintained a single e-mail account, or that neither account was password protected.

Also, any e-mail would have a copy in the server, either sent or received. There would be a backup well outside of the household. I believe it's been reported that LE did check that. [/*]

I did see the article that PF was boxing up RG's personal items from his office, but I thought it was nearer the time that MM took office. I don't remember the date it was in the paper.

I thought the company you bought your internet service from would have all and every email that came in or went out from a computer(s)?

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 01:27 AM

J. J. I doubt very much that Ray and PF shared an e-mail account. :rolleyes:

Apparently she knew his password for work.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 01:31 AM

Let's be clear here. Nobody other than PEF would know what clothing RFG had. LE asked her. I would defy anyone outside of my household to know exactly what clothing I have and what is missing. How would anyone else know what was missing?

PEF alerted LE to the existence of the laptop, and the house was searched after that.

PEF had access to RFG home account, which might have been her home account as well.

LE did the scheduling for the polygraph; PEF was not "allowed" to wait. It was not her doing. Nor would the three month period make any difference.

PEF permitted a warrantless search of her house and LE found nothing that would trigger forensic testing. Again it wasn't her choice, though it appears she offered no objection to it.

PEF was "allowed" very little and permitted LE much more (and more than many posters would).

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 01:33 AM

J. J., three months could have made a difference. Finding ways to pass the lie detector. Medication. Give me a break.

Cloudbuster

12-27-2007, 01:34 AM

Pgal Im soooo sorry Im just sick about your grandbaby!!! :rose:
If you need anything pm me!!!

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 01:36 AM

Goodevening CB, nice to see you pop in. :punch:

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J. I doubt very much that Ray and PF shared an e-mail account. :rolleyes:

Apparently she knew his password for work. [/*]

I belive the suggestion was that the system administrator could acess the work computer.

I know a number of people that have just one home email address, even when a couple. I also know people that have their password remembered on there own computer and anyone in the home can look; I'm one of them (though I don't have an SO).

In any event, there would be a copy of the e-mail in the ISP's server, so the argument is moot.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., three months could have made a difference. Finding ways to pass the lie detector. Medication. Give me a break. [/*]

How? And again, the timing was neither LG's or PEF's choice.

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by day2day

I agree...Patty was allowed all of those things..and LE never monitored his bank accounts...doesn't make sense to me?!

I'm so sorry about your grandson pgal....your family will remain in my families prayers..:( [/*]

His bank accounts would be LG's responsibiltiy, not PF's. And it was stated in one of the articles that it was nobody's businesses what was in his accounts.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J.,

How are you so sure that Ray didn't go missing Thursday evening? That would give plenty of time. Their had to be an accomplice or a "PORN BUDDY".

Edited to add, I guess he wouldn't need a "PORN BUDDY" since PF knew his password. [/*]

First, what makes you think, at that time, the laptop had the same e-mail account as the desk top and that PEF had access to it.

Second, I am sure that he drove the car to Lewisburg. I would say that the bulk of evidence is that RFG was alive on morning of 4/15/05.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Since the laptop was gone, I think it could all be on that computer and no one could check it out. Would there be a way to access the emails on the laptop from the new personal computer? When I was visiting my sister I was checking my emails from her computer but both were desktops. I have no idea how a laptop works.:shrug: [/*]

If it was the same account, they would be server at the ISP. RFG probable could check his emails.

The does not rule out the possibility of a second account on the laptop. That could be one possible reason the laptop was destroyed.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

Sounds to me as if she removed his personal effects and also looked at around in everything for all of his stuff. I wonder if she looked through his roladex? I am sure that she didn't clean the room like a janitor would. [/*]

I would hope that LE had checked any appointment books and his Rolodex (or something like it) when they searched the office in April.

gstickley

12-27-2007, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Please note that was in December 2005, and I'm not certain if was "cleaning" it or removing his personal effects. I presume the office had been cleaned sometime in more than 6 months. [/*]

"Instead, last week, she gathered missing District Attorney Ray Gricar's possessions and left an empty office for the new district attorney."

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

"Instead, last week, she gathered missing District Attorney Ray Gricar's possessions and left an empty office for the new district attorney." [/*]

Since the story was published December 9, 2005, that would make "last week" to be December of 2005.

We know that LE did search the office before that. She just removed RFG's personal effects after seven and a half months.

You certainly wouldn't think that she should left them for MM, do you?

day2day

12-27-2007, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

His bank accounts would be LG's responsibiltiy, not PF's. And it was stated in one of the articles that it was nobody's businesses what was in his accounts. [/*]

Hi SJ...
Yes i remember reading it wasn't anyone's business..but that is BS in my opinion. We have a DA that just vanishes into thin air..noone knows what happened to him. You bet your arse it is EVERYONE'S business if he (or someone else) is getting into his bank accounts...

THAT is just ONE of the problems i personally have with this whole investigation (or lack of )...***huge sigh***

gstickley

12-27-2007, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Hi SJ...
Yes i remember reading it wasn't anyone's business..but that is BS in my opinion. We have a DA that just vanishes into thin air..noone knows what happened to him. You bet your arse it is EVERYONE'S business if he (or someone else) is getting into his bank accounts...

THAT is just ONE of the problems i personally have with this whole investigation (or lack of )...***huge sigh*** [/*]

You've just about summed up the entire farce, Day. How many times have we heard basically that, "you can talk about this . . . but not that", "that is off limits", & other such ridiculous comments.

Pgal. has mentioned the silence . . . it is deafening!

IMO, the "secrecy" surrounding the disappearance surely lends to the assumption that "there is something to hide"!! And, this is from the very top to the lowest. Ray Gricar was an elected official! FGS, doesn't anyone care about that?? He was a District Attorney!!

Supposedly, there is a new LEO in charge of the "investigation". Has anyone ever heard anything from him? No.

Where is the "investigative reporter"? He's gonna check & get back with you. (It's been 2 weeks since he told Pgal. to check back in a week as was going to get information on the blasted fingerprints in the Mini. How long does it take to make a phone call or run in to the police station?)

Where is the outrage that a District Attorney has disappeared, whether voluntarily or involuntarily?

Why the secrecy, Centre Co.????? Why the "nobody's business" attitude????? :flamemad:

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Hi SJ...
Yes i remember reading it wasn't anyone's business..but that is BS in my opinion. We have a DA that just vanishes into thin air..noone knows what happened to him. You bet your arse it is EVERYONE'S business if he (or someone else) is getting into his bank accounts...

It was actually PB who contracted her. While don't agree that it is "EVERYONE'S" business, knowing if the assets are flowing out should be LE's business, especially since there would be the possibility that RFG could access the money.

THAT is just ONE of the problems i personally have with this whole investigation (or lack of )...***huge sigh***

This is part of the thing that I think should be checking and, unaccountably, have not been by LE.

While I give high praise to LE for the first weekend, there are several things where they dropped the ball:

1. Never looked at Lewisburg area car purchases, i.e. looked to see if RFG purchased a car.

2. Never looked, except at PEF, at the inner circle of friends and associates, i.e. looked to see if one of his friends helped RFG leave the area.

3. Don't monitor his assets, i.e. looked to see it perhaps he has had access to his assets.

None of these things are related to murder and all of them could either help rule out (or rule in) walkaway, yet LE isn't looking at them.

In terms of LE's actions (or inactions), these are the three most disturbing things about the case.

It almost looks as if LE knows what happened, but isn't telling us.

day2day

12-27-2007, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

You've just about summed up the entire farce, Day. How many times have we heard basically that, "you can talk about this . . . but not that", "that is off limits", & other such ridiculous comments.

Pgal. has mentioned the silence . . . it is deafening!

IMO, the "secrecy" surrounding the disappearance surely lends to the assumption that "there is something to hide"!! And, this is from the very top to the lowest. Ray Gricar was an elected official! FGS, doesn't anyone care about that?? He was a District Attorney!!

Supposedly, there is a new LEO in charge of the "investigation". Has anyone ever heard anything from him? No.

Where is the "investigative reporter"? He's gonna check & get back with you. (It's been 2 weeks since he told Pgal. to check back in a week as was going to get information on the blasted fingerprints in the Mini. How long does it take to make a phone call or run in to the police station?)

Where is the outrage that a District Attorney has disappeared, whether voluntarily or involuntarily?

Why the secrecy, Centre Co.????? Why the "nobody's business" attitude????? :flamemad: [/*]

Great post gs!! ...And very good questions! Why would a WHOLE community remain "silent" when their very own DA vanishes? Where is the outrage? Why isn't ANYONE angry? Why is the public ALLOWING LE go get by with this?

And as bad as i hate to disagree with LG ..she is VERY wrong saying that it isn't anyone's business! Her Daddy's finances ARE everyone's business.

IMO the "reporter" only reports what he WANTS to report...most of the time his responses ARE -i will get back to you..MMHMM

IMO the new LEO is even WORSE than DZ...!! I would like to know just ONE single thing this LEO has done since taking over this case....

IMO until someone gets angry...this case will get NOWHERE..(maybe that is exactly what "they" want)

day2day

12-27-2007, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It was actually PB who contracted her. While don't agree that it is "EVERYONE'S" business, knowing if the assets are flowing out should be LE's business, especially since there would be the possibility that RFG could access the money.

This is part of the thing that I think should be checking and, unaccountably, have not been by LE.

While I give high praise to LE for the first weekend, there are several things where they dropped the ball:

1. Never looked at Lewisburg area car purchases, i.e. looked to see if RFG purchased a car.

2. Never looked, except at PEF, at the inner circle of friends and associates, i.e. looked to see if one of his friends helped RFG leave the area.

3. Don't monitor his assets, i.e. looked to see it perhaps he has had access to his assets.

None of these things are related to murder and all of them could either help rule out (or rule in) walkaway, yet LE isn't looking at them.

In terms of LE's actions (or inactions), these are the three most disturbing things about the case.

It almost looks as if LE knows what happened, but isn't telling us. [/*]

We all "assume" that Mr. Gricar was on the "up and up"...IF by chance he wasn't and his bank account could PROVE that..it IS the public's business...right JJ?

As for PEF being "looked at" she was at a VERY far distance...not in your face investigating that SHOULD happen when a DA "vanishes" and the whole story rests on her...

The neighbors, friends and associates NOT being questioned is another thing that just isn't right...

IMO they either KNOW what happened..or they really just don't care...

either one sucks for those of us who DO care...

jmo

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by day2day

We all "assume" that Mr. Gricar was on the "up and up"...IF by chance he wasn't and his bank account could PROVE that..it IS the public's business...right JJ?

No. RFG and his family have a right to privacy in their financial situation. If LE looked and didn't find anything, or see money being drained to another (foreign?) location, they just report **no activity.**

As for PEF being "looked at" she was at a VERY far distance...not in your face investigating that SHOULD happen when a DA "vanishes" and the whole story rests on her...

In terms of what we know LE looked, there have been only three people seriously looked at, PEF, LG, and BJL. The only "insider" that had physical proximity to RFG on 4/14-4/15/05, and was checked, was PEF.

In terms of reporting, the one "inner circle" member that we have a fairly detailed account of is PEF.

The neighbors, friends and associates NOT being questioned is another thing that just isn't right...

As to the neighbors, they did have the ability to report anything suspicious. The "inner circle" should have been.

IMO they either KNOW what happened..or they really just don't care...

either one sucks for those of us who DO care...

They would care if it was a murder. And, in that first weekend, LE pulled out all the stops. It almost looks like they discovered something, and that something wasn't murder.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 12:27 PM

I've used this before, but it is worth repeating. The "Inner Circle" are those people with close association to RFG, and whom he presumably trusted and those people that were in physical proximity to RFG. They are:

1. Close friends: PEF, Sloane, Walker.

2. DA's Office staff: About 12-14 people.

3. Past close friends: BG, the nurse he dated, the "smoker friend" alluded to by JKA, area old girlfriends.

People that were personally close to RFG but were not physically close to him ("Distant Inner Circle"):

4. LG, TG and his brothers, EG, out of area old girl friends.

The checking here would be just to so that they were not in Centre-Union County areas on 4/15/05.

day2day

12-27-2007, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

No. RFG and his family have a right to privacy in their financial situation. If LE looked and didn't find anything, or see money being drained to another (foreign?) location, they just report **no activity.**

. [/*]

Exactly. LE sees money being drained and SAYS .."no activity"! That is why the public has every right to know about his financial situation. ...:seeya:

Serendipitous1

12-27-2007, 01:57 PM

Some more photos from the 3/30/05 press conference with the AG, that I had not seen before:

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs2-366x244.jpg

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs3-366x244.jpg

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs5-366x244.jpg

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs7-366x244.jpg

MOO - a solemn group (even MM) if I ever saw one.

Politigal

12-27-2007, 02:08 PM

From your link - didn't that require a "log-in" to access.

I mean, it's not the press link from the website.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/

The website declined to show this webpage
HTTP 403
Most likely causes:
This website requires you to log in.

Serendipitous1

12-27-2007, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
From your link - didn't that require a "log-in" to access. I mean, it's not the press link from the website.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/

The website declined to show this webpage
HTTP 403
Most likely causes: This website requires you to log in. [/*]Nope...no login.
My condolences to you and your family on your loss.

Politigal

12-27-2007, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Nope...no login.
My condolences to you and your family on your loss. [/*]

Ty
---

I didn't realize how short MM is.

Serendipitous1

12-27-2007, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

Ty
---
I didn't realize how short MM is. [/*]MOO - That must be why he was not asked to replace RG on the volleyball team at PDAA gatherings! :biggrin:

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 05:14 PM

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uplo...gs7-366x244.jpg

Nice pictures S1, I wonder who the woman is that is in uniform?

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Exactly. LE sees money being drained and SAYS .."no activity"! That is why the public has every right to know about his financial situation. ...:seeya: [/*]

Yes, but they don't have to tell "us" how much money is in the account, how much is being taken out or where it is going.

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 05:36 PM

I believe that it is the citizens of Centre County's right to know if money is being used by Ray. I feel that they should monitor the money. I think that the people have a right to know.

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Yes, but they don't have to tell "us" how much money is in the account, how much is being taken out or where it is going. [/*]

If LE is watching and knows things about the account, that is one thing, but why do we, the people, need to know that info? That would also be stepping into LG's business, since the account is in both of their names. JMO

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs7-366x244.jpg

Are the people in the photo part of the PSP or local LE or are they part of the Attorney General's drug task force?

The second and third man from the right in the back row look familiar as does the woman officer.

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 06:08 PM

I just heard on the news that skeletal remains were found in Somerset County and news team is on site now. Nothing further at this time.

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 06:18 PM

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uplo...gs7-366x244.jpg

Does anyone know who the woman is? Also do you notice in this picture that Ray has moved behind MM. I know that the picture is shot from a different angle, but just wondering.

day2day

12-27-2007, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Yes, but they don't have to tell "us" how much money is in the account, how much is being taken out or where it is going. [/*]

The point is J.J they aren't watching the account. Period.
And they are dead wrong for NOT doing so. IMO

day2day

12-27-2007, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I just heard on the news that skeletal remains were found in Somerset County and news team is on site now. Nothing further at this time. [/*]

Is this it SJ?...Very sad :(..

State police are investigating the death of a woman found lying in the woods near the Somerset Industrial Park in Somerset Township. via The Tribune-Democrat

http://www.topix.net/county/somerset-pa/2007/12/body-found-in-somerset-county

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Is this it SJ?...Very sad :(..

State police are investigating the death of a woman found lying in the woods near the Somerset Industrial Park in Somerset Township. via The Tribune-Democrat

http://www.topix.net/county/somerset-pa/2007/12/body-found-in-somerset-county [/*]

The news show I saw earlier made it sound like the body was just found. Which I guess she was. but never said a man or a woman. Now they said she died 6 months ago and had been investigating but your article said they did just find her but she had died about 6 months ago.

Goes to show how the news gets all messed up.

Sorry!!! Had hopes it might be RG, since they never said on the first show how long the skeletal body had been there.

gstickley

12-27-2007, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by day2day

We all "assume" that Mr. Gricar was on the "up and up"...IF by chance he wasn't and his bank account could PROVE that..it IS the public's business...right JJ?

As for PEF being "looked at" she was at a VERY far distance...not in your face investigating that SHOULD happen when a DA "vanishes" and the whole story rests on her...

The neighbors, friends and associates NOT being questioned is another thing that just isn't right...

IMO they either KNOW what happened..or they really just don't care...

either one sucks for those of us who DO care...

jmo [/*]

What's the possibility that perhaps LE DOES know what happened to Ray Gricar & is keeping it quiet to "protect the feelings of the loved one(s)"? It happened before with the TMW.

sherrijean981

12-27-2007, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

What's the possibility that perhaps LE DOES know what happened to Ray Gricar & is keeping it quiet to "protect the feelings of the loved one(s)"? It happened before with the TMW. [/*]

I always wondered about DZ statements right away referring to having a wild weekend. And someone said he goes in the other direction, as if they knew something and were hinting at it.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I always wondered about DZ statements right away referring to having a wild weekend. And someone said he goes in the other direction, as if they knew something and were hinting at it. [/*]

The Tyrone MW seems to have been identified as PEF. The Lewisburg MW is a bit different; it wasn't emphasized until a year later, but it was known.

I have not wondered about DZ's statements, or even the first several days after the report, but after that it seems to have fizzled. If there is a "big secret," as S1 refers to it, it might have been discovered. The question is, what is this "big secret?"

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 08:22 PM

J. J., You don't know what you are talking about. The owner of the Tyrone store knew the DA, RG and PF. He stated it wasn't her. What is there to not understand. Unless you are RG then you don't know do you. Were you there? Where is a link that states that the owner made a mistake and it happened to be PF?

Seriously, this is getting old. :rolleyes:

day2day

12-27-2007, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

What's the possibility that perhaps LE DOES know what happened to Ray Gricar & is keeping it quiet to "protect the feelings of the loved one(s)"? It happened before with the TMW. [/*]

Yanno gs...that wouldn't surprise me one bit. IMHO either LE knows what happened and is choosing NOT to say..or they don't give a flying flip about Mr. Gricar...one or the other. IF they don't know..they should be so ashamed...and IF they do know and aren't saying to "spare" someones feelings..that is equally as bad....

Someone needs to get angry to get to the truth...imho..:seeya:

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 09:48 PM

Can't help it. Sitting here and all of a sudden Pgal and family enters my mind. What a tragedy. I feel so bad. So very helpless.

Pgal, thinking and praying for you and your family. Such a heartbreak. :rose: Grandbaby is in God's arms now. I have questions about him. I am curious as to what he looked like, how much he weighed, how much he measured. Did he have hair or was he a bald baby.

How you and your family are holding up.

Deepest Sympathy again. :wreath:

I truly believe some day you will see him again. Next time there won't be anything wrong with him.

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., You don't know what you are talking about. The owner of the Tyrone store knew the DA, RG and PF. He stated it wasn't her. What is there to not understand. Unless you are RG then you don't know do you. Were you there? Where is a link that states that the owner made a mistake and it happened to be PF?

Seriously, this is getting old. :rolleyes: [/*]

Yes, it is when PEF verifies it was she that was with him in Tyrone.

I get it, only the witnesses in Lewisburg can be wrong; the single witness in Tyrone has to be right.

:rolleyes:

J. J. in Phila

12-27-2007, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

I always wonder more about those making statements like that than I do about the person they delude themselves into believing they are describing.
Both sound like pure fantasy to me.
JMO [/*]

Nothing we can know for certain, but a "big secret" could explain why the investigation seemingly stalled after the first week.

I frankly cannot figure out why LE would want to keep the "big secret," however.

Politigal

12-27-2007, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Can't help it. Sitting here and all of a sudden Pgal and family enters my mind. What a tragedy. I feel so bad. So very helpless.

Pgal, thinking and praying for you and your family. Such a heartbreak. :rose: Grandbaby is in God's arms now. I have questions about him. I am curious as to what he looked like, how much he weighed, how much he measured. Did he have hair or was he a bald baby.

How you and your family are holding up.

Deepest Sympathy again. :wreath:

I truly believe some day you will see him again. Next time there won't be anything wrong with him. [/*]

Thank you...

He was beautiful when he was born - very little strawberry blonde hair - 7lb/11oz - 21 1/2" long with long legs like his Nana (me) :) and his daddy

Here are some photos:

http://forctv.googlepages.com/home

day2day

12-27-2007, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

Thank you...

He was beautiful when he was born - very little strawberry blonde hair - 7lb/11oz - 21 1/2" long with long legs like his Nana (me) :) and his daddy

Here are some photos:

http://forctv.googlepages.com/home [/*]

Pgal..
Please know that my heart is with you. It is so hard to understand why these things happen..:( When I am down the only place i have to look up to is the Lord..i hope you can and will do the same. He is our comforter and knows just how you are feeling right now..Just let "Him" carry you awhile...

Gavin surely has a beautiful new home...and will be waiting for you..
If there is anything i can do, please let me know.
:rose:

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 10:53 PM

Pgal, Thanks so much for the pictures. They are beautiful. I love the one that he is touching someone's hand. It almost looks like he is trying to comfort the person that he is touching. He looks like such a tall baby. Thank you for sharing his life with us. I want to say more, but I don't know what to say. He really touched my life and I hardly knew him.

My son has a married couple as friends. Their first baby girl passed away after she was born. The parents never complained in front of anyone. They knew that it happened for a reason that we don't understand and won't until later. They had a lot of medical expenses. The medical expenses somehow got paid. Later she got pregnant again. This time it was twin girls. Fraternal twins. Looked very much different. I have always wondered if God had given them back the baby that died. I guess it is a somewhat happy ending to a tradegy although the twins in their mother's heart have never replaced the first little girl.

Politigal

12-27-2007, 10:53 PM

ty to all

Politigal

12-27-2007, 11:06 PM

sorry if I got the board off track...

back to RG

I paid for an archived article in the Patriot-News about RG dated 6/12/05

It talked about when RG and PF first got together. She was divorced -- he was still in the process of getting divorced.

Their first date was a trip to Cleveland.

Do you think that was possibly the *other* time RG disappeared?

Cinderella

12-27-2007, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Great find again, Pgal.

I brought this over from the regular board, 'What are the odds' thread.........where we were discussing the 'previous' disappearance.

quote:Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

He wasn't with anyone at the time, IIRC. He still could have been married to EF, but they were not together.

<snip> [/*]

quote: Originally posted by Logicworks

SO........ on Saturday morning/early afternoon, an air search is taking place between Centre Hall and Rebersburg, AND stadium parking lot for the Cleveland Indians is being checked for his vehicle.

From what I have gathered on board, someone informed LE that RG had gone away on some previous weekend without telling anyone. How did the person know he didn't tell anyone?

Doubtful that it would have come from his work staff since, IIRC, it was a weekend when he had gone away before.
Doubtful that it would have come from LE since from what we have heard, he wasn't reported missing at that time or searched for.
Doubtful that PF called Emma when she called the rest of the family on Saturday morning to see if he was with her, and she told them, 'oh, he disappeared once like that before'.

So how did LE come by that information on Saturday morning?
IF it was family, then someone in the Cleveland area knew where he was when he 'disappeared' the time before, therefore not really a disappearance. If it was a known factor, then why no calls to the family on Friday evening? Considering it was the next place after the air search area that was looked into, where did LE get their information from?

IF it didn't come from his family, did LE ever check to see if there was any record of how many tickets RG purchased to the Cleveland Indians game the weekend he disappeared prior to?
Or any motel/hotel receipts if he didn't stay with family, which if he did, would not be called a 'disappearance'.
JMO [/*]

Now come on Pgal and Logic. The last that I knew was 1 + 1 = 2.
:punch: Quit acting so NAIVE. :lol:

BTW, my mother always said that if the shoe fits, wear it.

Politigal

12-28-2007, 12:16 AM

It certainly makes sense IMO, if RG wasn't legally divorced, and on a date with Patty, on a trip to Cleveland, that he might not tell anyone where he was going.....

day2day

12-28-2007, 12:18 AM

Sorta sounds like history repeating itself. And it makes sense WHY LE would check Cleveland...Hmmmm

Cinderella

12-28-2007, 12:19 AM

Pgal, you are right. 1 + 1=2

Politigal

12-28-2007, 12:25 AM

I don't recall where I read it, but I think Sloane was the one that told police about the Cleveland trip. That would make sense too, since he was RG's best friend.

Perhaps the Cleveland trip - if it was the same one RG took with Patty - was the reason for Zaccagni thinking RG was just out on the town....

J. J. in Phila

12-28-2007, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Great find again, Pgal.

I brought this over from the regular board, 'What are the odds' thread.........where we were discussing the 'previous' disappearance.

quote:Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

He wasn't with anyone at the time, IIRC. He still could have been married to EF, but they were not together.

<snip> [/*]

quote: Originally posted by Logicworks

SO........ on Saturday morning/early afternoon, an air search is taking place between Centre Hall and Rebersburg, AND stadium parking lot for the Cleveland Indians is being checked for his vehicle.

From what I have gathered on board, someone informed LE that RG had gone away on some previous weekend without telling anyone. How did the person know he didn't tell anyone?

Doubtful that it would have come from his work staff since, IIRC, it was a weekend when he had gone away before.
Doubtful that it would have come from LE since from what we have heard, he wasn't reported missing at that time or searched for.
Doubtful that PF called Emma when she called the rest of the family on Saturday morning to see if he was with her, and she told them, 'oh, he disappeared once like that before'.

So how did LE come by that information on Saturday morning?
IF it was family, then someone in the Cleveland area knew where he was when he 'disappeared' the time before, therefore not really a disappearance. If it was a known factor, then why no calls to the family on Friday evening? Considering it was the next place after the air search area that was looked into, where did LE get their information from?

IF it didn't come from his family, did LE ever check to see if there was any record of how many tickets RG purchased to the Cleveland Indians game the weekend he disappeared prior to?
Or any motel/hotel receipts if he didn't stay with family, which if he did, would not be called a 'disappearance'.
JMO [/*]

LW, what makes you think that this was the same trip to Cleveland as the ball game trip. As noted, the staff noticed that he was "missing," well not around, at the time of the Cleveland trip; there was never any mention of PEF "missing" at the time. I believe it has been also noted that RFG was not involved with anyone at the time.

Politigal

12-28-2007, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

LW, what makes you think that this was the same trip to Cleveland as the ball game trip. As noted, the staff noticed that he was "missing," well not around, at the time of the Cleveland trip; there was never any mention of PEF "missing" at the time. I believe it has been also noted that RFG was not involved with anyone at the time. [/*]

PEF worked in a different position back then.

And it's possible RG's staff didn't know he was involved with anyone, since he was still in the process of getting divorced.

Hence, the "secret" trip to Cleveland.

J. J. in Phila

12-28-2007, 12:38 AM

Here is what TG said:

tonyGricar
Member

Registered: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 474

- Yes, it was really a trip to a ballgame. A Cleveland Indians game in his hometown. He went by himself, no police report was filed, and he was surprised when he returned that anyone was concerned of his location as he had no relationship that he was accountable to. It's not a long drive and he either returned late that night or early the next morning. I'd call it a stress relief, similar to when he would take his Mini out for a rural run. I wasn't even aware of this game trip until it came up at the onset of the investigation. In my own opinion, do I find that trip strange? Not at all. I've gone for longer, much farther, and without notifying anyone, but then again, I like my alone time. Must run in our family.

Thanks,
Tony

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
Old Post 07-24-2006 02:19 PM

Politigal

12-28-2007, 12:45 AM

Tony also posted this:

http://boards.courttv.com/showthread.php?postid=8311853&highlight=jake#post8311853

Yes, Jacob's Field security was contacted to see if Ray's Cooper might be in one of the lots there. I was not the one who made the call on this. If you look at the text you pasted, I only said that The Jake was contacted ahead of any antique shop, not that I had anything to do with that. As I mentioned in a prior post, I was not aware of Ray's previous "field trip" to The Jake.

J. J. in Phila

12-28-2007, 12:45 AM

It took a simple search of TG's posts to find the answer; using the key word "Cleveland" yielded a whole 10 results, and end this latest tangent.

In short, LW call find was yet another red herring.

Politigal

12-28-2007, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
It took a simple search of TG's posts to find the answer; using the key word "Cleveland" yielded a whole 10 results, and end this latest tangent.

In short, LW call find was yet another red herring. [/*]

look above your last post smarty britches

J. J. in Phila

12-28-2007, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Here is what TG said:

tonyGricar
Member

Registered: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 474

- Yes, it was really a trip to a ballgame. A Cleveland Indians game in his hometown. He went by himself, no police report was filed, and he was surprised when he returned that anyone was concerned of his location as he had no relationship that he was accountable to. It's not a long drive and he either returned late that night or early the next morning. I'd call it a stress relief, similar to when he would take his Mini out for a rural run. I wasn't even aware of this game trip until it came up at the onset of the investigation. In my own opinion, do I find that trip strange? Not at all. I've gone for longer, much farther, and without notifying anyone, but then again, I like my alone time. Must run in our family.

Thanks,
Tony

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
Old Post 07-24-2006 02:19 PM [/*]

It seems clear that TG was aware of it after the disappearance and the details.

More red herrings.

Politigal

12-28-2007, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It seems clear that TG was aware of it after the disappearance and the details.

More red herrings. [/*]

He posted that he was not aware of the Cleveland trip.

Who do you think gave him the details of that trip after the disappearance?

Politigal

12-28-2007, 12:52 AM

Furthermore, if RG wasn't divorced yet, and on a date with Patty, do you really think his best friend would tell his nephew those details?

Cloudbuster

12-28-2007, 01:02 AM

http://www.tyronepa.com/news/article.php?id=7284

Tyrone twist in Gricar case

By SAM J. ZEMA
Staff Writer
May 17, 2006

The owner of a Tyrone antique shop told The Daily Herald yesterday he had seen the former Centre County District Attorney with an unidentified woman at his shop((( several weeks)))) before Ray Gricar went missing.????????
Tom Marshall, owner of I-99 Antiques on Pennsylvania Avenue, said he and his wife live in State College.?? He said he knew Gricar and saw him and spoke to him at the store weeks before his disappearance.
He said Gricar was with an unidentified woman. Marshall said the woman (((((was not Gricarâ€™s daughter or girlfriend, Patty Fornicola.)))) He said Gricar drove away from the shop in the same car he was using when he went missing in mid-April of last year.
Marshall said he was ((((((contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricarâ€™s disappearance)))))) (why???) (how'd they know to go to him?)))) and gave authorities details about the encounter. (((((Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing.)))) (same descritption JJ)
WJAC Channel 6 News first reported the story earlier this week. The report said Fornicola had told Bellefonte police she was the woman with Gricar in Tyrone. (((sorry PF Marshall said you wasn't??)))
Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn Weaver did not return a call by press time this morning.

sherrijean981

12-28-2007, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
Furthermore, if RG wasn't divorced yet, and on a date with Patty, do you really think his best friend would tell his nephew those details? [/*]

I was under the impression EG was the one who broke up the marriage, ended it. Why wouldn't RG mention going to a game with a female companion, just because he wasn't divorced yet? A game does not make it an affair.

Not companion as in sexual, but just that, companion to the game. No matter what female it was. I get the feeling it is now trying to be made an illicit event, not just a game.

sherrijean981

12-28-2007, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
http://www.tyronepa.com/news/article.php?id=7284

Tyrone twist in Gricar case

By SAM J. ZEMA
Staff Writer
May 17, 2006

The owner of a Tyrone antique shop told The Daily Herald yesterday he had seen the former Centre County District Attorney with an unidentified woman at his shop((( several weeks)))) before Ray Gricar went missing.????????
Tom Marshall, owner of I-99 Antiques on Pennsylvania Avenue, said he and his wife live in State College.?? He said he knew Gricar and saw him and spoke to him at the store weeks before his disappearance.
He said Gricar was with an unidentified woman. Marshall said the woman (((((was not Gricarâ€™s daughter or girlfriend, Patty Fornicola.)))) He said Gricar drove away from the shop in the same car he was using when he went missing in mid-April of last year.
Marshall said he was ((((((contacted by Bellefonte police sometime after Gricarâ€™s disappearance)))))) (why???) (how'd they know to go to him?)))) and gave authorities details about the encounter. (((((Marshall said the woman he saw Gricar with in Tyrone matched the description of a woman he was reportedly seen with in Lewisburg the day the former prosecutor went missing.)))) (same descritption JJ)
WJAC Channel 6 News first reported the story earlier this week. The report said Fornicola had told Bellefonte police she was the woman with Gricar in Tyrone. (((sorry PF Marshall said you wasn't??)))
Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn Weaver did not return a call by press time this morning. [/*]

Hi CB.
Haven't talked to you for a week. We need to talk soon. Want to hear what your sister said about the ghost. Is she still with you? Has she been on the forum too, maybe now trying to help out too?

sherrijean981

12-28-2007, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2004/01/01-15-04tdc/01-15-04dnews-03.asp

--------------------------------
Snip
But after more than two decades serving the community as head prosecutor, Gricar announced last week that he plans to retire at the end of his fifth term in 2005. He said the announcement is not related to any recent events.
Snip
_____________________
[/*]

I was wondering what events could have happened in later 2004 that he was saying were not related to his announcement of retiring.

I did a search on WJAC-TV and found this list of some things that went on. Not all articles are there, just a sample paragraph.

http://www.wjactv.com/search/form.html?qt=gricar&p=3&video=on&stories=on

Quite a few happened, in fact, I believe someone mentioned it seemed things were against RG at one point. I think this was the time period.

tonyGricar

12-28-2007, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
Furthermore, if RG wasn't divorced yet, and on a date with Patty, do you really think his best friend would tell his nephew those details? [/*]I begrudgingly will address this absurdity. I'm on a flight delay (wi-fi) and thought I'd email a couple of the board members when I came across this latest assertion (some of you have mail).

- Ray was not with Patty. Fwiw, when he would go to Cleveland for baseball, he went to games with old Cleveland attorney, season-ticket-holding buddies, as games then were sold out prior to the season. I went with on a few occassions.

- I was not made aware of the prior trip to Cleveland because nobody deemed it an issue, save for exactly one soon-to-be ex. This was not too long (in "coping years") after my own Father's death, so one might understand where a concern on her behalf, warranted or otherwise, could come into play.

- Sloane brought up that Cleveland trip on Saturday to LE, the first I had heard of it.

- To think that Sloane wouldn't tell me something about my Uncle is amusing. I'm 35, not 12. Without going into any usable detail, Sloane and I have gone into detailed discussions about many things. There is a jocularity that you see in old friends or brothers. Stop by the PSU tailgate and let me know if you notice the reticence you think exists. I'll leave it at that.

- My own editorialization would tell me that your views of an "affair" (sure, he was separated, whatever...) would be about a 0.1 on a scale of 1-10 in terms of how it would affect me. In no way would I be embarrased if he had a fling while going through a divorce, after the divorce, or during a dating relationship. Happens every day. I think it's safe to say that were it a legal scandal/corruption, I'd be embarrassed to a point. Dating someone (flinging?) during a divorce? C'mon... Conservative, Lara and I are not.

- Pgal, you're splitting hairs on my post you quoted and what JJ also posted. If you read it, you'll notice my reference to not knowing about the Cleveland trip prior to the investigation, and specifically, that Saturday. My reference to "as I said in a prior post" was to the one JJ posted.

Additional things:

- The email account wasn't limited to any particular PC. It was a mainstream, web-based email accessible from any pc. Professionally, I've been invloved in helping obtain warrants for email accounts. It's not an easy thing to do, absent any actual crime. I assisted LE in attaining that warrant. Nothing of note showed up in the server logs.

- Re: Ray's accounts and the "it's nobody's business" quote from my cousin. She was referring to the general public and the reporter. It is LE's business, as she is and was aware. To take a leap to it not being LE's business is absurd. It should also be re-noted that the FBI handled the banking side of the investigation, SS# checks, etc. Lara was asked to continue monitoring the accounts for anything after a period of time. It's a joint account which she is on. If she were to withdraw the money and close the account, should LE then monitor her personal account? I'd think it's a good thing the account is still intact in case there were to be a hit on it. I'm thinking if he took off, he's probably smarter than that.

Personally, I would not be comfortable with the general public knowing, as a joint-holder, how much money I have access to, especially in a high-profile case that could be foulplay or kidnapping. Any educated guesses as to why? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller.... Bueller....?

- Never have met Serendipitous. Known who he is for a couple of years. Helpful he has been. LE he is not. No apologies necessary for any confusion. On a related note, the rolled up 20 was a reference to using it to snort coke and the look on anyone's face were it attempted to be returned to them. It was a simple joke, not an implication of Serendips career path. A request for clarification of the 20 dollar bill thing might be one of the most amusing emails I've received (well, maybe a top 50).
Also, thanks for the nice note, Snarky1. I see you have a new nickname. Congrats!

---------

I'm heading out of the country for a couple of weeks. If I run into him, I'll buy him a daquiri and keep him busy until LE arrives, unless of course Continental decides to cancel my flight.

Enjoy your holiday all.

Baited once again :D,
Tony

P.S. - as a holiday bonus, a long-running, prime-time national show has been in contact with me about featuring Ray's case. Keep your fingers crossed.

Cloudbuster

12-28-2007, 02:16 AM

Hi SJ:seeya: I been busy and preoccupied with a few things that I haven't gotton to. My PC is low on disc space and Im really not a tech at knowing what to do lol. Its running slow and I did a disk clean and forget fragmenting its beyond that lol. I uninstalled applications Im not using and even got rid of photos. I still am only 20 percent free?

You don't really want hear about my ghost do you lol? List of words:
Robert A ( A is a middle name I think.)
Marshall-Sparkle-markle (most likely Marshall)
Barbara Carter (think thats the right last name).

I believe if RG was in Lewisburg he left and headed ......
Det Z sorta said a place that RG went to Thursaday but said nothing to collberate it with.??? Funny how they also knew to contact the antiques shop in Tyrone??? Why there first?

jmoo

Cloudbuster

12-28-2007, 02:28 AM

Hiya TG!!:) Im keeping my fingers crossed. May God be with you!!! cb

J. J. in Phila

12-28-2007, 02:31 AM

Tony, thank you for clearing this up [again].

Please post the time of the program, if they run it.

Have a Happy New Year.

Cinderella

12-28-2007, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
_______________
SNIP

I'm heading out of the country for a couple of weeks. If I run into him, I'll buy him a daquiri and keep him busy until LE arrives, unless of course Continental decides to cancel my flight.
SNIP
------------------------

Tony if he is alive, we don't care if LE finds him. We just want to know that he is alive and safe.
________________
SNIP
Enjoy your holiday all.
SNIP
__________________

Enjoy your Holiday also Tony. I wish that you would run into Ray. That would please me very much.
--------------------------------
Baited once again :D,
Tony

P.S. - as a holiday bonus, a long-running, prime-time national show has been in contact with me about featuring Ray's case. Keep your fingers crossed. [/*]

-----------------------------------------------
I hope they keep him in the spotlight.

Politigal

12-28-2007, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar

Baited once again :D,
Tony

snipped [/*]

Did I mention that I love to fish?

;)

sherrijean981

12-28-2007, 03:09 AM

Have a safe trip, Tony! My prayers are still for finding Ray safe, and for your family and PF.

As to the cancellation of your flight, from what I heard on the news tonight they have cancelled flights 4 days in a row at different airlines, one a lot, but don't remember your airline having any.

Thank you for your post. Although we have heard it all before, it helps when you get drawn in on that line to reaffirm what we have been told before. :)

I knew it would soon get you. Dive deeper, most lines aren't that long.
:seeya:

sherrijean981

12-28-2007, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Hi SJ:seeya: I been busy and preoccupied with a few things that I haven't gotton to. My PC is low on disc space and Im really not a tech at knowing what to do lol. Its running slow and I did a disk clean and forget fragmenting its beyond that lol. I uninstalled applications Im not using and even got rid of photos. I still am only 20 percent free?

You don't really want hear about my ghost do you lol? List of words:
Robert A ( A is a middle name I think.)
Marshall-Sparkle-markle (most likely Marshall)
Barbara Carter (think thats the right last name).

I believe if RG was in Lewisburg he left and headed ......
Det Z sorta said a place that RG went to Thursaday but said nothing to collberate it with.??? Funny how they also knew to contact the antiques shop in Tyrone??? Why there first?

jmoo [/*]

You might just have to break down and clean your "favorites" and email files out. :D

day2day

12-28-2007, 11:15 AM

Well well ...
So nice to "see ya" Mr.Gricar! I am SO happy to hear that you are taking that vacation! Of all the people i know (myself included) ..you deserve one!
Have fun...relax..enjoy yourself ..and i hope more than anything you remembered to pack the water wings.
I hope you fill us in on the details of the "show" when you get back!
Have a super trip and I hope that 2008 brings you only THE best life has to offer.

Cinderella

12-28-2007, 08:31 PM

Gee look what happens after TG's visit. Everyone gets quiet. Too bad that I did not get an e-mail. Those e-mails have me curious now. :chicken:

It reminds me of something JKA wrote in her blog. :chicken:

Logic, UTR, was you lucky enough to receive an e-mail? Just curious.

I guess if TG was Santa, I might get coal in my stocking. :santa:

J. J. in Phila

12-28-2007, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Gee look what happens after TG's visit. Everyone gets quiet. Too bad that I did not get an e-mail. Those e-mails have me curious now. :chicken:

It reminds me of something JKA wrote in her blog. :chicken:

Logic, UTR, was you lucky enough to receive an e-mail? Just curious.

I guess if TG was Santa, I might get coal in my stocking. :santa: [/*]

Cind, what e-mail? I didn't get one either.

(Contrary to popular opinion, I rarely communicate with Tony. It's not dislike, but I don't want to disturb him.)

Cinderella

12-28-2007, 08:52 PM

Ok J. J, I have to admit that I am wrong. I looked over his post and it didn't say anything about anyone getting an e-mail. Maybe I just had a little too much to drink. You know my kids just left and I was just relaxing...............

HA HA HA HA

Well if no e-mail then some posters might have gone on vacation with him. No one has been around.

BTW, J. J., did I tell you that I can argue with you, I loved when Pgal called you smarty pants, but still feel that you are very much a friend.

BTW, my son got me a 1599 Edition of the Genevia Bible. That is what I wanted. It is the edition that the Pilgrims brought over to US. It was printed before the King James. It is beautiful. Leather bound, big and it is in a case.

Cinderella

12-28-2007, 09:02 PM

Too much to drink is a good excuse to blame things on, but I didn't have anything other than Diet Pepsi. I must have thought that I saw something there that wasn't.

I have a different theory about Ray. It just came out of the blue. I don't have any proof. I will have to work on it.

day2day

12-28-2007, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Ok J. J, I have to admit that I am wrong. I looked over his post and it didn't say anything about anyone getting an e-mail. Maybe I just had a little too much to drink. You know my kids just left and I was just relaxing...............

HA HA HA HA

Well if no e-mail then some posters might have gone on vacation with him. No one has been around.

BTW, J. J., did I tell you that I can argue with you, I loved when Pgal called you smarty pants, but still feel that you are very much a friend.

BTW, my son got me a 1599 Edition of the Genevia Bible. That is what I wanted. It is the edition that the Pilgrims brought over to US. It was printed before the King James. It is beautiful. Leather bound, big and it is in a case. [/*]

I went back and checked cause I was beginning to believe that i had been drinkin WITH you...

from TG's post

I begrudgingly will address this absurdity. I'm on a flight delay (wi-fi) and thought I'd email a couple of the board members when I came across this latest assertion (some of you have mail).

BTW-i am NOT on vacation with tg...and i didnt get an email either...:shrug: (go figure)

I bet your Bible is beautiful Cind. What an awesome gift!

Cinderella

12-28-2007, 09:43 PM

day, thanks it is really beautiful. I didn't want it for show. I wanted it because it is an early version. It also comes with a CD.

This is a picture of the case that the Bible comes in.

http://www.reformationbookstore.com/1599genevabiblehardback.aspx

This is a picture of what the Bible looks like. This picture doesn't do it any justice though. It is really beautiful.

http://www.tollelegepress.com/gb/geneva_family.php

My daughter bought me a Bible Crossword Puzzle Book which I also wanted. I thought that that could help me learn more while having fun.

My next Bible will be a Messianic Jewish Bible.

I don't get Bible's to display them, I get them to read and use.

Cinderella

12-28-2007, 09:47 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by day2day

---------------------

I went back and checked cause I was beginning to believe that i had been drinkin WITH you...

from TG's post

I begrudgingly will address this absurdity. I'm on a flight delay (wi-fi) and thought I'd email a couple of the board members when I came across this latest assertion (some of you have mail).

SNIP
------------------------

He does stated about e-mailing a couple of board members.

Thank day for showing that to me again.

day2day

12-28-2007, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
day, thanks it is really beautiful. I didn't want it for show. I wanted it because it is an early version. It also comes with a CD.

This is a picture of the case that the Bible comes in.

http://www.reformationbookstore.com/1599genevabiblehardback.aspx

This is a picture of what the Bible looks like. This picture doesn't do it any justice though. It is really beautiful.

http://www.tollelegepress.com/gb/geneva_family.php

My daughter bought me a Bible Crossword Puzzle Book which I also wanted. I thought that that could help me learn more while having fun.

My next Bible will be a Messianic Jewish Bible.

I don't get Bible's to display them, I get them to read and use. [/*]

Cind!
Thank you so very much for the links! I JUST ordered one for my Dad! He has been pretty sick (as most of you know) and he LOVES to read (and study) the Bible. I know he will love this!!

It sounds like your Christmas was filled with THE most precious gifts of all Cind...

**hugs
D2D

J. J. in Phila

12-28-2007, 10:32 PM

I have a reprint of the original "King James," with the Apocrypha (soft cover). I find the prose indecipherable. I also have a RSV with the Apocrypha (hard cover). My priest bought them for the congregation.

I also the OT in Hebrew, NT in Greek, and the Luther Translation with the Apocrypha in German, none of which I can read.

day2day

12-28-2007, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I have a reprint of the original "King James," with the Apocrypha (soft cover). I find the prose indecipherable. I also have a RSV with the Apocrypha (hard cover). My priest bought them for the congregation.

I also the OT in Hebrew, NT in Greek, and the Luther Translation with the Apocrypha in German, none of which I can read. [/*]

Very nice J.J. I would love to see them!!

Serendipitous1

12-28-2007, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
<Snip>
...thanks for the nice note, Snarky1. I see you have a new nickname. Congrats! [/*]I thought about being a devil and replying, "no problem bro". But one can only imagine the consternation that would ensue...and fester into the new year. Instead I will just say, you are very welcome...to a friend I have yet to meet. And, though I can be snappish at times (hence the snarky moniker), I do try not to be an obnoxious ankle-biter.

day2day

12-28-2007, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I thought about being a devil and replying, "no problem bro". But one can only imagine the consternation that would ensue...and fester into the new year. Instead I will just say, you are very welcome...to a friend I have yet to meet. And, though I can be snappish at times (hence the snarky moniker), I do try not to be an obnoxious ankle-biter. [/*]

Let me guess..Snarky! YOU got the email? NOW where do i apply for DZ's old job?:D :chicken:

Cinderella

12-28-2007, 11:58 PM

day, I am so glad that I mentioned it.

J. J. I would love to come and look at your Bibles. What you have would make me want to learn the language.

Hey Snarky1 where have you been? Snarky1 fits you well. So you are one of Tony's favorites that got and e-mail. I am jealous.

Don't let your head swell too much. Remember what Tony said about you not being LE. :santa:

J. J. in Phila

12-29-2007, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Very nice J.J. I would love to see them!! [/*]

The Luther translation was on desplay for a while.

Serendipitous1

12-29-2007, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Let me guess..Snarky! YOU got the email? NOW where do i apply for DZ's old job?:D :chicken: [/*]Actually, I did not get any email from Tony recently, as he responded to my most recent PM on the boards. But...we have yet to hear from Politigal!?!

Cinderella

12-29-2007, 12:04 AM

Where at? There is a web site of a man who has the most copies of the different translations and Bibles. The site is like a museum that actually shows you what he has. Most of them are in cases. I loved looking at that site. It might be in California that he has this where people can come in and look at his collection.

Cinderella

12-29-2007, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Actually, I did not get any email from Tony recently, as he responded to my most recent PM on the boards. But...we have yet to hear from Politigal!?! [/*]

I actually got a pm from Pgal. Grave side services are tomorrow at 2:00 in Texas. I don't know if she will be on tonight or not. :rose:

day2day

12-29-2007, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Actually, I did not get any email from Tony recently, as he responded to my most recent PM on the boards. But...we have yet to hear from Politigal!?! [/*]

Crap..does this mean i don't get DZ'z old job :(...

J. J. in Phila

12-29-2007, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Where at? There is a web site of a man who has the most copies of the different translations and Bibles. The site is like a museum that actually shows you what he has. Most of them are in cases. I loved looking at that site. It might be in California that he has this where people can come in and look at his collection. [/*]

It was at Altoona Campus Library for a bit.

This is not my copy, but another copy of the Luther translation is on sale on e-bay here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1813-Goeb-Bible-1st-Bible-Published-West-of-Alleghenies_W0QQitemZ7410240650QQcmdZViewItem

My copy has neither of the straps.

The Greek and Hebrew were 20th Century printings.

Cinderella

12-29-2007, 12:19 AM

I just posted a post and it disappeared. Really.

I know that Ray sent his tax return in. He probably received money back. I am curious as to where he had the money sent.

Just a thought.

Now, I will try this again and see if it works.

Serendipitous1

12-29-2007, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Crap..does this mean i don't get DZ'z old job :(... [/*]I am not sure I get the connection, day. But anyway, why would you want DZ-z-z-z-z's old job?

J. J. in Phila

12-29-2007, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I just posted a post and it disappeared. Really.

I know that Ray sent his tax return in. He probably received money back. I am curious as to where he had the money sent.

Just a thought.

Now, I will try this again and see if it works. [/*]

If he had a refund, it would be sent to his filing address, and it could have been received by 4/15/05. You actually have to to do change of address with the IRS.

Cinderella

12-29-2007, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It was at Altoona Campus Library for a bit.

This is not my copy, but another copy of the Luther translation is on sale on e-bay here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1813-Goeb-Bible-1st-Bible-Published-West-of-Alleghenies_W0QQitemZ7410240650QQcmdZViewItem

My copy has neither of the straps.

The Greek and Hebrew were 20th Century printings. [/*]

Don't make me CRY, J. J., I wish I had the money, I would love to have it. I need a rich sugar daddy. Any out there?

Cinderella

12-29-2007, 12:28 AM

J. J., I wonder if he received his refund before he went missing?

Snarky, I would like to have DZ's old job. I would then be able to know all of the evidence and I could go and question anyone and everyone that I wanted to.

J. J. in Phila

12-29-2007, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

Don't make me CRY, J. J., I wish I had the money, I would love to have it. I need a rich sugar daddy. Any out there? [/*]

Why? It's too bulky for the shelves, I can't read it. Unless it's your family or you're a collector, it's exceptionally impractical.

IF there was a refund, it's possible he got it prior to 4/15. It still would be sent to the filing address unless he did a change of address with IRS, and that would probably come up on a data base search.

Cloudbuster

12-29-2007, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., I wonder if he received his refund before he went missing?

Snarky, I would like to have DZ's old job. I would then be able to know all of the evidence and I could go and question anyone and everyone that I wanted to. [/*]

Cind I suppose it's a good thing that I don't have Det Z's old job lol. First of all I was never feeling that Lewisburg played a huge part in this case other than RG being watched from the third house (from above that house). The meeting setting place where he parked. Im really convinced he was heading back after that meeting and not alone. Im unsure if he drove his car back which I seriously doubt but was with someone else in their car.

Im convinced that while in route to Lewisburg he pulled over and tossed his laptop or hardrive or as one unit. Then im convinced that the murderer pulled out after he done that. (My Ghost said it that way).

Another thing that I hear is from another speaker saying"heard you wanted to run with us makes no sense". I took that to mean RG was getting into something that he would not normally get into. Apparently they knew that too. Seems RG might have went undercover or decided to work with some kind of task force some type of operation. My ghost seemed to be explaining to another person he was talking to and told that person "I took a half a day off thats what I said". I also sounded like at one point that he should have put off what he tossed and put off the phone call but Im unsure at this point.

Strangly I might have found a possible Barbara Carter she recently died in Baltimore as a homeless person. Im unsure if that Barb is the Barb. Weirdly Moo Moo seemed to be from there?

unconvential disclaimer.

J. J. in Phila

12-29-2007, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Why would a man making six-figures with no property that we are aware of get a refund?

He may not have claimed himself as a dependent (there may be a phase out based on income, I'm not sure), he may have claimed some business expenses, and/or he may have had charitable contributions.

Considering taxes owed would have been due on April 15, 2004, were they paid before he disappeared?

The taxes were on his income in 2004, and would have been due on 4/15/05 and most of those could have been withheld. He had filed, according to the newspaper.

And considering taxes would be due for at least 3.5 months of employment in 2005, were they filed and paid by RG from another location?
Just curious............

Those taxes would be due on April 15, 2006, and that becomes the guardian's responsibility, LG in this case.

Cinderella

12-29-2007, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Why? It's too bulky for the shelves, I can't read it. Unless it's your family or you're a collector, it's exceptionally impractical.

IF there was a refund, it's possible he got it prior to 4/15. It still would be sent to the filing address unless he did a change of address with IRS, and that would probably come up on a data base search. [/*]

I would still like to have it. I would learn to read it. :santa:

Cinderella

12-29-2007, 02:12 AM

My computer now is going PSCHYO. I posted one time. I looked and it posted and was at a top of a page, then it disappeared.
My last post, I didn't put the laughing Santa there. What in the world is going on. My computer is taking over. :confused:

Laws

12-29-2007, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Why would a man making six-figures with no property that we are aware of get a refund? Considering taxes owed would have been due on April 15, 2004, were they paid before he disappeared? And considering taxes would be due for at least 3.5 months of employment in 2005, were they filed and paid by RG from another location?
Just curious............ [/*]

Oh Logic, you have me literally laughing out loud, people who have the ability to ascertain what Mr. Gricar's habits during lunch periods, Friday nights, contacting staff about time off, whether Thursday he was in the office at 3PM & are completely unwilling to disclose but you think they will come to the table about Mr. Gricar's taxes??????????????

Nope us nobody's will hear nothing definitive along those lines.

JJ, you may want to update yourself in that it is highly recommended that people receive IRS REFUNDS DIRECTLY to their bank accounts, the refunds are received about 4 weeks earlier & are trackable & less easily stolen from mail boxes.

J. J. in Phila

12-29-2007, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Laws

JJ, you may want to update yourself in that it is highly recommended that people receive IRS REFUNDS DIRECTLY to their bank accounts, the refunds are received about 4 weeks earlier & are trackable & less easily stolen from mail boxes. [/*]

Last year, I didn't get a refund, but before that, they've been mailed.

My experience was more with mail correspondence. I was surprised, but the IRS actually has their own change of address form.

I do get certain things via direct deposit, but they require a change of address filed with them as well.

My particular point was that we don't know a great about RFG's finances, except that probably didn't have a cash flow problem. We can find his salary, look at the tax rates and maybe come up with a rough net, which doesn't take into account of deductions. We take X percentage of that, per year, and compound the interest at a given rate for Y years, but that's about it.

Cinderella

12-29-2007, 02:33 PM

Nice to see you Laws, I love your posts. :seeya:

I feel that most people do have their income taxes direct deposited as they receive them faster.

Cinderella

12-29-2007, 02:37 PM

Laws, I would love to hear what your thoughts are on the case and what you think happened to Ray.

J. J. in Phila

12-29-2007, 04:31 PM

Does anyone know if a forensic accountant looked at RFG's money for a 5-10 year period prior to 4/15/05?

J. J. in Phila

12-29-2007, 10:51 PM

I was doing some searching and I found this article on the Wilkes-Barre sighting:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496950.stm

Two interesting points:

1. The sighting was listed as being in the evening of 4/18/05.

2. It gives the street, Highland Park Boulevard. I checked the map and Highland Park runs parallel to I-81. It's only about 1.2 miles long and its basically the only cross street after getting off I-81. The access road T-ends on Highland.

It's about an eight mile drive to connect with Northeast Extension of the PA Turnpike and about a 12 mile drive to Wilkes-Barre International Airport. I-81 North eventually leads to Canada and it goes south though the Shenandoah Valley and eventually merges with I-40 in Tennessee.

Could the witnesses be mistaken? Yes. Could they be perfectly accurate? Yes.

Politigal

12-29-2007, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

I actually got a pm from Pgal. Grave side services are tomorrow at 2:00 in Texas. I don't know if she will be on tonight or not. :rose: [/*]

I may have miscommunicated in my pm...don't recall what time I sent that, but actually, the graveside service was today at 2pm. And it was a lovely service complete with doves. Tania (my daughter-in-law) had read books to Gavin the whole time she was pregnant, and also for the past two weeks at the hospital. Today at the service, she read from her favorite Dr Seuss book that she had been reading to him. It's entitled "Oh, the places you'll go"..........

http://www.mit.edu/people/adorai/seuss/seussboy.html

Cinderella

12-30-2007, 12:19 AM

Pgal, Sorry it was a mistake that I made. I guess that I was assuming that it was before midnight when it was really after midnight. I have been thinking of you and your family all day today. Nice to see you post. I hope that you get back into posting, it might help just a little bit. What a nice story. I bet everyone was crying at the time. Your daughter-in-law seems like a wonderful person. You haven't said too much about your son. Men tend to hold their sorrow in. :rose:

Cinderella

12-30-2007, 12:24 AM

Yesterday was the 4 year anniversary of my mother's passing.

Cinderella

12-30-2007, 12:30 AM

Pgal, Did your daughter-in-law carry Gavin full term? Also did the doctors not think that they could operate on Gavin when he was in the womb?

sherrijean981

12-30-2007, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

He may not have claimed himself as a dependent (there may be a phase out based on income, I'm not sure), he may have claimed some business expenses, and/or he may have had charitable contributions.

The taxes were on his income in 2004, and would have been due on 4/15/05 and most of those could have been withheld. He had filed, according to the newspaper.

Those taxes would be due on April 15, 2006, and that becomes the guardian's responsibility, LG in this case. [/*]

Years ago our account told my husband to take extra money out of his paycheck towards taxes, because of having to pay in the year after our last child left home. He has kept it the same and receives a refund now, which we use to pay the home taxes.

We were also told to do an electronic deposit to our bank account and receive it in 2-3 weeks. Much quicker than the paper check route.

With RG's helping the WRC, he might get some credit back, but maybe just enough to break even. He also might have had to take extra out of his pay year round to break even?
JMO

sherrijean981

12-30-2007, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

I may have miscommunicated in my pm...don't recall what time I sent that, but actually, the graveside service was today at 2pm. And it was a lovely service complete with doves. Tania (my daughter-in-law) had read books to Gavin the whole time she was pregnant, and also for the past two weeks at the hospital. Today at the service, she read from her favorite Dr Seuss book that she had been reading to him. It's entitled "Oh, the places you'll go"..........

http://www.mit.edu/people/adorai/seuss/seussboy.html [/*]

Pgal that was a beautiful story to send the little guy on his way! I have never read it before now, so was the name at the end in the book or your grandbabies name?

I think that story would be perfect for any boy, baby, child or man! Thank you for sharing!

sherrijean981

12-30-2007, 02:19 AM

I was just looking over the line-up for Tru-TV and I have to say I am very disappointed. Seems like the older generation does not come in to what is on in the evening. All the good shows are on after my hubby goes to bed. I like the Forensic Files, Domminic Dunn, "?" Hyndman Show, etc. Most evenings are the real shows. I also did not see Haunting Evidence in the line-up. or any paranormal listings for that matter.

Guess my Court TV, (Tru-TV) time is now going to another station!
Too bad :shrug:

J. J. in Phila

12-30-2007, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Years ago our account told my husband to take extra money out of his paycheck towards taxes, because of having to pay in the year after our last child left home. He has kept it the same and receives a refund now, which we use to pay the home taxes.

I don't have them figure in the standard deduction when calculating my withholding. For the first time in the last decade, I owed taxes. Six dollars!

With RG's helping the WRC, he might get some credit back, but maybe just enough to break even. He also might have had to take extra out of his pay year round to break even?
JMO

For 2004, the head of household standard deduction was $7,125. The single deduction was $5,000.

The WRC is what popped into mind, but there are other things he might be contributing to, like his university, or even the local volunteer fire department.

He might also have business expenses, like those DA's conferences, CE for his bar retention, the fee to keep his law license, and possibly dues for something like the state association of DA's. All are deductible.

He might have had an IRA, where contributions are deductible, up to $4,500, at RFG's age.

If the reports are accurate, RFG basically had two sources of income, his salary, subject to withholding, and any interest. Even the head of household deduction might offset most of that.

sherrijean981

12-30-2007, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I don't have them figure in the standard deduction when calculating my withholding. For the first time in the last decade, I owed taxes. Six dollars!

For 2004, the head of household standard deduction was $7,125. The single deduction was $5,000.

The WRC is what popped into mind, but there are other things he might be contributing to, like his university, or even the local volunteer fire department.

He might also have business expenses, like those DA's conferences, CE for his bar retention, the fee to keep his law license, and possibly dues for something like the state association of DA's. All are deductible.

He might have had an IRA, where contributions are deductible, up to $4,500, at RFG's age.

If the reports are accurate, RFG basically had two sources of income, his salary, subject to withholding, and any interest. Even the head of household deduction might offset most of that. [/*]

I wonder if he would have even renewed his law license since he told the newspaper he wasn't going into private law practice again. Wonder what he was going to do? Maybe he had a private dream of a job he wanted to do other than law?

You know, the government makes it that people want to stay single and not get married. Or get a divorce and just live together. If married and someone gets sick, they don't give help with a serious illness and I know many couples that got divorced just so their ill spouse could get the meds and help they needed. Also the marriage penalty on the taxes.

So anything could have been going on as far as RG's taxes. There are a lot of loopholes out there. Traveling expenses, clothing credits, and if ill and you had to travel to treatments and doctors, you were allowed to claim that.

Mine were high in 1986. Of course they changed a lot of that some time after that time period. We bought land in 1986 and sold in 1993 and I think it was sometime between then.

Did you have trouble getting on tonight? CB and Cindi can't get on and I was checking the Holiday forum out and there are a lot that can't and when they can they get booted right back out.

J. J. in Phila

12-30-2007, 04:18 AM

Yes, I've been having problems as well.

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I wonder if he would have even renewed his law license since he told the newspaper he wasn't going into private law practice again. Wonder what he was going to do? Maybe he had a private dream of a job he wanted to do other than law?

According to what he said in the paper, nothing.

His bar dues might have gone up; today they charge lower rates for government attorneys. It's currently about $150 for government employed lawyers, but is over $200 for non government ones; he'd also have an annual license fee, the continuing education requirement (which I doubt is free) and possibly local dues.

His license fee was due prior to his leaving office, so he would have had to renew it at least one more time.

(As an aside, I saw couple in their 70's separate in order that the wife could get medical benefits from the state.)

So anything could have been going on as far as RG's taxes. There are a lot of loopholes out there. Traveling expenses, clothing credits, and if ill and you had to travel to treatments and doctors, you were allowed to claim that.

From what we've been told, it would be fairly likely that he would have at lest some deductions.

Let's assume:

1. RFG claimed no dependents on withholding.

2. His 2004 salary is $120,000

3. He gets $8,000 in interest

(The last two numbers are possibly high.)

His total gross income is $128,000, in this example.

By 1/1/05, RFG has complete paid the income tax on his salary.

If he uses the standard deduction, he has paid taxes on $125,000; he owes taxes on $3,000.

RFG has these deductions.

A. A personal deduction of $3,100.

***. He has an IRA and makes the maximum deposit for tax purposes $3,500. (The IRA would be included in the assets.)

C. Some business deductions. He deducts his law license fee, his Bar dues, possibly dues for the DA's association. Maybe some office supplies he uses at home. That should be $400. He might have to pay something for those conferences, even if mileage or food.

D. He contributes to the WRC or some other charity, maybe $2000 (that is not a lot for his salary).

He itemized and claims $9,000 in deductions.

So RFG has an adjusted income of $119,000, but he's paid taxes on $120,000. He gets a refund on the $1,000 he paid taxes on but didn't "earn." He gets a refund, in this example, of $280, since he's at the 28% tax rate.

I would suspect that RFG might have had several thousand in business expenses and might have had more in charitable contributions. I'd also suspect that the interest might be a bit high.

J. J. in Phila

12-30-2007, 04:21 AM

The things that have always struck me as odd was RFG's statement that he would be going into private practice and that was his "plan," for a long time.

Cinderella

12-30-2007, 01:40 PM

I don't know what SherriJean is talking about when she said that I could not get on last night that I got booted. This is not true as I was on, but I didn't have anything to add. :confused:

Cinderella

12-30-2007, 05:52 PM

I found an old link that contain two useful items. Here is the link. I am not a psychic, but I would bet my money that J. J. comes on and states that the article must be wrong.

4/30/05

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496817.stm

Saturday, April 30, 2005
By Dennis Roddy, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

SNIP
--------------------------

The assorted media and police attending yesterday's press conference wanted to believe this, too. Police chief Duane Dixon said two people in Wilkes-Barre insist they met a man matching Gricar's description on April 18 -- three days after he told Patty Fornicola, the girlfriend with whom he lived, that he was taking the day off for a drive.

-------------------------------------------------------
Snip

This is not to say Gricar did not enjoy the occasional puzzler along with the Grey Goose martini he invariably ordered while awaiting his table at the bar of the Gamble Mill Inn.

"Every Friday, he and Patty would sit right over there," said Barb -- she wouldn't give a last name -- the bartender. "They would play Trivial Pursuit cards."

A deck of the cards sits at the bar for the amusement of customers waiting to be seated in the dining room. She described Gricar as "very good" at trivia questions.

----------------------------------------
SNIP

:read:

Cinderella

12-30-2007, 06:03 PM

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/mcall/access/91862690.html?dids=91862690:91862690&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Oct+5%2C+1990&author=TIM+REEVES%2C+The+Morning+Call&pub=Morning+Call&edition=&startpage=A.01&desc=DA+GETS+PUNCHED+AS+PARDONS+BOARD+VOTES+IN+PUB LIC

1990 Partial article. You have to pay money for the full article.

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DA GETS PUNCHED AS PARDONS BOARD VOTES IN PUBLIC
[FIFTH Edition]

Morning Call - Allentown, Pa.
Author: TIM REEVES, The Morning Call
Date: Oct 5, 1990
Start Page: A.01
Section: NATIONAL
Text Word Count: 432

Abstract (Document Summary)
The woman punched Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar and "told me she better not catch me alone," Gricar said. He was unhurt.

Several board members cited security concerns in opposing public voting. The Morning Call argued that juries are required to state their verdicts publicly, and the Pardons Board should, too. Besides, the paper argued, the state Constitution requires it.

Morning Call attorney James Imbriaco said that interpretation of the ruling was "ludicrous." He noted that the specific records sought by The Morning Call, and granted by the court, were from a December 1989 meeting on a request for clemency by convicted murderer Richard Klinger of Monroe County.

Cinderella

12-30-2007, 06:12 PM

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/mcall/access/102968789.html?dids=102968789:102968789&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Sep+10%2C+1985&author=AP&pub=Morning+Call&edition=&startpage=A.04&desc=MAN+WHO+ASSAULTED+CHILD+FOR+BEER+GETS+PRISON+ TERM

Sept. 10, 1985
Another partial article. You have to pay for full article.

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MAN WHO ASSAULTED CHILD FOR BEER GETS PRISON TERM
[FIFTH Edition]

Morning Call - Allentown, Pa.
Author: AP
Date: Sep 10, 1985
Start Page: A.04
Text Word Count: 211

Abstract (Document Summary)
Hours later, when [Elizabeth J. Young Bryan] - who had been drinking heavily at the time - and the little girl returned home, she told her husband, Paul W. Bryan, what had happened, said Assistant District Attorney Ray Gricar.

" 'I sold her for a case of beer' is what she said," Gricar said. Paul Bryan then loaded a shotgun and killed his wife.