RAY GRICAR, Missing Centre County DA, cont.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - It is a given that media news coverage is never wholly satisfactory. There is no legal or ethical requirement to be accurate, thorough, balanced, fair or impartial. The article you cite was written after the abandoned Mini was found, and before the (apparent) séance-like, group counseling session.

Maybe it was a Freudian thing. Maybe MS was trying to mislead. Or (perhaps most likely) maybe he was just struggling, like everyone else, to make some sense of it, and Armas considered it newsworthy...connected by the car location...when it was not really.

I believe TG when he says that reports about RG's antiquing were overblown. And from my own observation, the SoS is no one's destination...not for antiquing anyway. [/*]

i found an article online about smith's wife...christine arbutina

apparently kayaking is one of their fav outdoor activities

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

i found an article online about smith's wife...christine arbutina

apparently kayaking is one of their fav outdoor activities [/*]More power to them. I, myself, am more of a "tuber"...same thrill, on a lower budget. MOO

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks

It has been reported he had been down in Tyrone at I-99 Antiques sometime preceding disappearance and then his car was found in a lot associated with 'antiques', so how is it 'overblown'? If that is to say RG had no interest in antiques or visiting places where they are housed, I would think that was an 'understatement'.

I don't recall reading anywhere that MS noted what RG collected, yet I recall the news reporting on what he collected. Surely someone gave them the information as to what kind of antiques he was interested in.
http://www.streetofshops.net/index.asp JMO [/*]Is it not more likely that the location of the abandoned Mini, coupled with the "sightings" in the SoS, precipitated a larger-than-life antiquing image? To me, the computer parts finds destroyed any notion of a care-free, antiquing, pleasure drive. JMOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


The fact that it was at a location that housed something he was known to have a particular interest in is important, IMO. The fact that the dog's story doesn't back up the witnesses story in any way points toward familiarity with the lot.



There are some things that might account for the dogs not tracing RFG to the SOS or in the park. The trail was erased, just by normal things, i.e. street traffic. Trails do fade, naturally, over time. Most dogs have problems with trails 24-48 hours old; that might have been the last laid trail.

I saw a Mythbusters demonstration. The dog found the subject, without problem, in the countryside, no matter what he did. The found him in the urban environment, but was not able to trace the route. I'd guess that the dog was detecting the rafts that came off of the subject directly.

As for the parking lot, I'm not sure it is only for the street of shops. It is interesting that the Mini was parked in a place where it would eventually be returned to the owner.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks
The fact that it was at a location that housed something he was known to have a particular interest in is important, IMO. The fact that the dog's story doesn't back up the witnesses story in any way points toward familiarity with the lot. [/*]MOO - Not necessarily. The SoS was apparently familiar to RG, PF and perhaps others who knew them...as were other places in the immediate area - a companion (and much nicer) antique store a couple of blocks to the west, a favored restaurant just over the bridge (also along the river), etc. But there are no reports of sightings in these other familiar places. I do not think we need to revisit the dog-scenting issues. If RG parked the car, I do not get the sense it was because antiquing was his quest, whether or not he entered the SoS. If someone else parked the car there, I do not get the sense that antiquing was the intended deception. But these are just my guesses.


Was it ever mentioned whether the red and white Mini had ever been noticed as parking in that particular lot and being there for an extended time prior to it's being there on 4/15? If so, how frequently? [/*]Not that I remember reading.


Sometimes owners of private parking lots or employees take notice of something like that especially if a vehicle was there at lunch hour and still there at closing time, or if has been known to have been there a few times at closing time. Considering it appears to be a private lot for the SOS, if I were the one locking up, it would cause me to wonder if there was still someone in the store that didn't realize it was closing time and I might have just locked them in. [/*]Apparently, no SoS employee was that observant or concerned.


If RG left with someone else, and actually planned on returning, how did he know his car would still be there and not towed out of the lot while he was gone? Some store owners are very rigid about cars in their private parking lot during and after business hours.

The car's arriving sometime close to 5 pm is strange. Nothing to indicate where he was from noon to 5 and one would think he would have been on his way back home by that time, so why park in a private lot for a store that will soon be closing or while it was closing and employees notice him parking there where he aren't supposed to be? Surely if he was trying to be discreet, he wouldn't do so considering any employee could come up and talk to him. Doesn't make sense.

Anyone who knew the particulars re: the vehicle would know that if it was towed, the owner would likely be traced and called. In this case, the call would have gone in to PF, the owner. Continues to look 'personal' to me. [/*]IIRC, the lot was not posted "SoS patrons only" or anything like that, and it is apparently used after hours by some locals...seems that Bennett does not pay much attention to such things.

I do not put much stock in Bennett's second-hand account about when the car arrived. If RG left, intending to return, I suspect his plan was to be back well before 5 pm. He did not take his cellphone and would surely have realized PF would eventually be concerned about being unable to reach him. If he left (at whatever time), not intending to return, I doubt he was thinking of PF or tow trucks...or being discreet. If someone else parked the car there, especially at closing time, seems to me they took a heck of a risk at being noticed. And yet there is apparently no report connecting a person with RG's Mini in that lot. Maddening. MOO

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks
<Snip>
It is maddening, but to everyone's credit, no one here is giving up, even after 2.75 years, trying to put the pieces to the puzzle together. JMO [/*]Thirty-three maddening months, today...and counting. All JMOO:

If RG parked the car there, then clearly some theories must incorporate a drastic shift away from the man whom people had known for years. But it does not follow that such a change (if there was one) had to have been volitional; it is not necessary to reinvent the man to fit certain theories.

If someone other than RG parked it there, suicide essentially gets taken off the table. But it would not necessarily follow that RG never made it to Lewisburg at all that day...which, if he had not, might suggest that the driver was familiar with RG's leisure-time habits.

But if we go on to speculate that he never left Bellefonte alive that day (by necessity implicating PF in the disappearance), then it seems to me we would have to reinvent the woman whom people (including RG) had known for years.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


Nor do I put much stock into Bennett's reporting of Friday and I will also include Saturday. Anyone parking the car there at the time Bennett states would be seen doing so considering it was closing time.

IF RG was running away, why the delay in leaving? If foul play, who is going to be foolish enough to bring the car there in broad daylight? The detail of arrival time is important, but I am not so certain we are being shown all of the evidence including what time the car arrived.

Surely the meticulous, detail oriented man, who had Thursday off to take care of details, didn't need to be floundering around from noon to five if his intent was disappearance. No trail of any business transactions being taken care of, that we are aware of.
Only possibility is that he needed to wait until someone was done with work to help him deliver the car there to the familiar lot.

What's the possible motive for a super responsible man like RG voluntarily disappearing? Court cases could go on without him, and his retirement would be held for him. The election for a new DA was well on it's way. The man seems to have had three major interests that filled his time and other 'minor' interests.
The big three appear to be work, PF, and LG. We are told no problems in any of the three areas. One of them is a lie if this was a voluntary disappearance.

Checked the bus schedules and don't see anything there that corresponds with any of the times we have been given.

http://www.ridesforallpa.com/getting_there.htm

http://www.susquehannabus.com/schedules.html

It is maddening, but to everyone's credit, no one here is giving up, even after 2.75 years, trying to put the pieces to the puzzle together.
JMO [/*]

It could have been possible for RG to leave on a bus from Lewisburg even on Sat, when witnesses were placing him in Lewisburg yet. There were buses leaving at 3:30 pm to Harrisburg (where he had a friend??) and at 2:55 on Sat for Philly. If he was still around there were buses in the am too, but that would discount the witnesses siting.

Since the LE found his car in the pm, I wouldn't think he would be in the area in the am on Sunday. They were looking for info on a man with blue jeans and blue fleece jacket. He could have had cash and bought new clothes and a different type jacket or had other clothes on in the am that no one was aware of.

And he had other staff off on the same day, SS and MS and no one ever mentions his other close friend EW. Any one could have helped him if there were a legitimate fear of his welfare and life. Even someone in state government.

I would like to know even a small fraction of the things not told to the public by LE. We have just enough to not get us anywhere.

Certainly wish others in the court house would come forward with things they might know. or his best friends and co-workers.

[J. J. in Phila]

Not necessarily a lie, but an omission.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Thirty-three maddening months, today...and counting. All JMOO:

If RG parked the car there, then clearly some theories must incorporate a drastic shift away from the man whom people had known for years. But it does not follow that such a change (if there was one) had to have been volitional; it is not necessary to reinvent the man to fit certain theories.

If someone other than RG parked it there, suicide essentially gets taken off the table. But it would not necessarily follow that RG never made it to Lewisburg at all that day...which, if he had not, might suggest that the driver was familiar with RG's leisure-time habits.

But if we go on to speculate that he never left Bellefonte alive that day (by necessity implicating PF in the disappearance), then it seems to me we would have to reinvent the woman whom people (including RG) had known for years. [/*]

but we don't really know much at all about the woman.....

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Thirty-three maddening months, today...and counting. All JMOO:

If RG parked the car there, then clearly some theories must incorporate a drastic shift away from the man whom people had known for years. But it does not follow that such a change (if there was one) had to have been volitional; it is not necessary to reinvent the man to fit certain theories.



RFG, by all accounts, was a hard guy to know. He had a limited number of close friends. We don't know him; TG is perhaps the one that comes the closest to knowing him. And even there, they were not in daily contact, even by phone.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


RFG, by all accounts, was a hard guy to know. He had a limited number of close friends. We don't know him; TG is perhaps the one that comes the closest to knowing him. And even there, they were not in daily contact, even by phone. [/*]

Not knowing about his one friend EW, we can't say how close they were either. Steve Sloane was in daily contact with him, as a co-worker and friend, they probably talked every day. Maybe even while out on sick leave. Was RG the type of friend who would check on him, to see if he was okay or needed anything?

I don't think the Taji Lee was the only drug investigation going on at that time either. I don't remember the names, will have to check my stack of papers, but it was one that had people from Milesburg, Bellefonte, Beech Creek and further east. Them man from Milesburg was the local man who cut the drugs up and distributed to his gang. He went with another man from NY to get the drugs. One of the people in that drug bust was from Bellefonte, Zion Rd. and the last name was very familiar. Maybe from an attorney's family. This group was more in RG's neighborhood than the Taji Lee group of dealers.

I wonder if the man from Milesburg knew BJL.

I will get that link put up. I think it could be important to check some of those names out.

[sherrijean981]

Here is the NY, Centre County and Clinton County connection to the drug ring I was talking about.

Two of the names are from the Milesburg and Bellefonte area.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=2152

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
With suicide or walkaway, you and S1 bring up a very good point. We've broadly touched on this in the past, at least I know I did re: a suicide angle, but it's likely worth a deeper revisit.

I have a friend who is an FBI forensic psychiatrist who I've bounced ideas off before. We can get into that if y'all would like. [/*]

I would, but right now, I only give it a 15% chance. I started out at 33 1/3%.

The two problems are no body and that laptop, from what I can see. I have come up with several possibilities to explain the laptop, but they seem like a stretch.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



What makes you think TG would know RG better than his own daughter, LG who was said to be in contact with him 3 X a week? Are you using longevity as your yardstick? I would like to know how you reached that conclusion since it was my understanding that you didn't know him personally.
JMO [/*]

LW, as far as I know LG is not a poster here, so far as I know. The only one of "we" that knows him, even moderately well, of the posters is TG.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I would, but right now, I only give it a 15% chance. I started out at 33 1/3%.

The two problems are no body and that laptop, from what I can see. I have come up with several possibilities to explain the laptop, but they seem like a stretch. [/*]Sort of touched on this in the past, but what the hey...

I've never quite understood how the laptop destruction actually mitigates a suicide scenario in most/all of your eyes. Given the apparent lack of import that the laptop ostensibly had to anyone but possibly Ray, and based solely on that, I think that the rankings would go 1. Suicide, 2. walkaway, 3. foul play. Anyone who stays inside their own head to such an extent is often a very private person. If I were to go the suicide route, I'd toss my journal/diary, or in 2008 terms, my laptop. Nothing nefarious here, but if I don't open myself up to offerning much personal insight to others while I'm alive, I don't think I'd be urgent to do so in death.

Two reasons I can speak to this: I'm the proverbial yin and yang in that I can be the most gregarious person in the room, but counterintuitively, am also likely to be, by far, the most private. Runs in the family...

Now, the lack of a body... that's another story.

Oh, and the hard drive being removed. No real answer for that, other than I know that data survives quite a bit of damage. Not sure if I'd yank the drive before taking the next step.

[sherrijean981]

I was watching the news channel concerning the 4 children the father threw over the bridge. I had been praying he was lying but no, they had found at least 3 of the little ones. God Bless them.

Anyways it got me to thinking about RG and his "supposed" suicide in the waters at the SOS and Rt 45 bridge. Considering the depth of the river as compared to where these little ones were thrown in, you would think RG would have been found much sooner/faster than they were.

The difference I was hearing was the same sonar type equipment that had been used in Lake Michigan to find a missing person but eventually found a about 4 others that had been missing for a good amount of years, was also used to see 3 of the little ones at the bottom. The currents were active and had moved them further away but 2 of them had been found last time I watched.

Wondered why no one ever came to Lewisburg and did the same in the waters there? I know the currents in the 2 areas are different, one making waves going in and out from the shore and the Susq. having undercurrents going down river, but if RG had jumped in after all this time, wouldn't he have surfaced somewhere along the line before the Chesapeake Bay? At some dam?

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I was watching the news channel concerning the 4 children the father threw over the bridge. I had been praying he was lying but no, they had found at least 3 of the little ones. God Bless them.

Anyways it got me to thinking about RG and his "supposed" suicide in the waters at the SOS and Rt 45 bridge. Considering the depth of the river as compared to where these little ones were thrown in, you would think RG would have been found much sooner/faster than they were.

The difference I was hearing was the same sonar type equipment that had been used in Lake Michigan to find a missing person but eventually found a about 4 others that had been missing for a good amount of years, was also used to see 3 of the little ones at the bottom. The currents were active and had moved them further away but 2 of them had been found last time I watched.

Wondered why no one ever came to Lewisburg and did the same in the waters there? I know the currents in the 2 areas are different, one making waves going in and out from the shore and the Susq. having undercurrents going down river, but if RG had jumped in after all this time, wouldn't he have surfaced somewhere along the line before the Chesapeake Bay? At some dam? [/*]Going back aways here, but iirc, rivers with such shallow depths are not really conducive to sonar's application. Sonar has an easier time of picking up static or moving anomalies in larger bodies of water, vs. rivers with shallow, and rapidly changing depths, and the accompanying debris. Technology has advanced for this, but I know that sonar is used for doing fish counts in rivers. For rivers, it's easier to filter out the static objects and only track the moving (ie, the fish). Basically, in open waters, such as the ocean, lake, large river, or a pond, sonar can give you both static and moving objects with a lower degree of error. Shallower rivers, you pretty much get an either/or. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. I'm stretching back to school and a stretch of military consulting osmosis.

Re: a body surfacing in the Susq, the odds say that it should, however it can't be discounted that one could be hung up in underbrush or undercuts of shoreline or islands. My father's body "surfaced" only when high river waters receeded, making visible the underbrush and driftwood that caught him. Were it not for the waters receeding, I'm not sure when/if he would have been found.

Fwiw, there were some spots, during the summer months, down near Schamokin Dam (12m south, give or take?) where I could basically walk across the entire width in ankle deep water. The inflatable dam there was not inflated when Ray vanished.

[puzzled]

Tony I think people just find it very hard to believe that Ray would intentionally destroy county property. Regardless of the situation. However if someone had killed him then of course they would have a reason to destroy the laptop. So glad you are back!:D

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Going back aways here, but iirc, rivers with such shallow depths are not really conducive to sonar's application. Sonar has an easier time of picking up static or moving anomalies in larger bodies of water, vs. rivers with shallow, and rapidly changing depths, and the accompanying debris. Technology has advanced for this, but I know that sonar is used for doing fish counts in rivers. For rivers, it's easier to filter out the static objects and only track the moving (ie, the fish). Basically, in open waters, such as the ocean, lake, large river, or a pond, sonar can give you both static and moving objects with a lower degree of error. Shallower rivers, you pretty much get an either/or. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. I'm stretching back to school and a stretch of military consulting osmosis.

Re: a body surfacing in the Susq, the odds say that it should, however it can't be discounted that one could be hung up in underbrush or undercuts of shoreline or islands. My father's body "surfaced" only when high river waters receeded, making visible the underbrush and driftwood that caught him. Were it not for the waters receeding, I'm not sure when/if he would have been found.

Fwiw, there were some spots, during the summer months, down near Schamokin Dam (12m south, give or take?) where I could basically walk across the entire width in ankle deep water. The inflatable dam there was not inflated when Ray vanished. [/*]

That makes sense. When my nephew was cruising Raystown Lake on his large pontoon boat he had some type of sonar equipment that showed things in the lake, like some old homes that had been covered and yes, all the fish. I don't know how far down his went. I was enjoying the beautiful day on his boat. I did suggest he go to the Susq with it and help me look for RG, but he laughed at me. Go figure.

I am also watching the dive team in Aruba who are still looking for Natalie Halloway. There site shows all the equipment and computers and paperwork they are using. He also keeps an update on what is happening out there. Interesting site. I thought of you TG when I saw all the computers on their boat. :)

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by puzzled
Tony I think people just find it very hard to believe that Ray would intentionally destroy county property. Regardless of the situation. However if someone had killed him then of course they would have a reason to destroy the laptop. So glad you are back!:D [/*]

Welcome Puzzled!! Wondered when we would start getting new comments from the gallary! Nice to have someone new on board. What are your thoughts?

I see you are from OH. What do you know of Mel Wiley disappearance? It has been discussed before but recently has come up in conversation again. Have you heard anymore on him?

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
That makes sense. When my nephew was cruising Raystown Lake on his large pontoon boat he had some type of sonar equipment that showed things in the lake, like some old homes that had been covered and yes, all the fish. I don't know how far down his went. I was enjoying the beautiful day on his boat. I did suggest he go to the Susq with it and help me look for RG, but he laughed at me. Go figure. [/*]I have a large pontoon with a fish finder, as well. I can understand why he laughed... :D I never was able to make a trip over there with my seadoos last summer, but they are probably more condusive to visually searching the Susq than a prop boat, due to the shallow waters.

Also, toss me into the camp of people who had never heard of Wiley until this case (and I've spent a large amount of my life in Cleveland).

[puzzled]

Thanks for the welcome. I really do not know anything about the MW case however I live within spitting distance of Hinckley!:cool:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Sort of touched on this in the past, but what the hey...

I've never quite understood how the laptop destruction actually mitigates a suicide scenario in most/all of your eyes. Given the apparent lack of import that the laptop ostensibly had to anyone but possibly Ray, and based solely on that, I think that the rankings would go 1. Suicide, 2. walkaway, 3. foul play. Anyone who stays inside their own head to such an extent is often a very private person. If I were to go the suicide route, I'd toss my journal/diary, or in 2008 terms, my laptop. Nothing nefarious here, but if I don't open myself up to offerning much personal insight to others while I'm alive, I don't think I'd be urgent to do so in death.

Two reasons I can speak to this: I'm the proverbial yin and yang in that I can be the most gregarious person in the room, but counterintuitively, am also likely to be, by far, the most private. Runs in the family...

[/*]

Fair question. First, I can understand why someone suicidal would destroy personal documentation prior committing suicide. That isn't an issue with me. The placement is.

We know, if this was suicide, a few things about the laptop with a reasonable degree of certainty. It was in Bellefonte as of 8:00 AM on 4/15/05. The hard drive was in it. RFG was in Bellefonte.

We know, again if suicide, these things. The drive was removed prior to the tossing of the laptop. It was removed deliberately and carefully, not by force (100% chance to both). Very probably, the laptop was tossed from the north side of the bridge (I'd say 99% + chance). It was most likely tossed from a vehicle crossing the bridge(maybe 80%+).

If RFG did this, he had to:

1. Take the computer from the case.

2. Remove the drive, which involves unscrewing a screw. There would be a greater probability of doing this at the house (Question, did he carry a pen knife; the blade makes an excellent screwdriver?)

3. Drive to the other side of the Susquehanna (He could cross traffic on foot on the bridge, but that is unlikely).

4. Drop the laptop, but not the drive.

5. Possibly before #3, toss the drive.

There are several easier and quicker methods. One is, not to take the laptop to Lewisburg, just remove the drive in the house and tossing it from the bank. In this, RFG has to go through a whole series of things. He is probably crossing and recrossing the Susquehanna, taking the laptop itself, and even going to the trouble of removing it from the case first. That is possible, but unlikely.

These are the problems I have with the laptop and suicide.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled
Thanks for the welcome. I really do not know anything about the MW case however I live within spitting distance of Hinckley!:cool: [/*]

Welcome Puzzeled.

I'll start by asking you a question. Were you in the area when Wiley disappeared? Was it reported as a walk away case?

[puzzled]

I was not in this area at the time. I vaguely remember hearing about it in the news. I really don't remember anything about it unfortunately.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Fair question. First, I can understand why someone suicidal would destroy personal documentation prior committing suicide. That isn't an issue with me. The placement is.

We know, if this was suicide, a few things about the laptop with a reasonable degree of certainty. It was in Bellefonte as of 8:00 AM on 4/15/05. The hard drive was in it. RFG was in Bellefonte.

We know, again if suicide, these things. The drive was removed prior to the tossing of the laptop. It was removed deliberately and carefully, not by force (100% chance to both). Very probably, the laptop was tossed from the north side of the bridge (I'd say 99% + chance). It was most likely tossed from a vehicle crossing the bridge(maybe 80%+).

If RFG did this, he had to:

1. Take the computer from the case.

2. Remove the drive, which involves unscrewing a screw. There would be a greater probability of doing this at the house (Question, did he carry a pen knife; the blade makes an excellent screwdriver?)

3. Drive to the other side of the Susquehanna (He could cross traffic on foot on the bridge, but that is unlikely).

4. Drop the laptop, but not the drive.

5. Possibly before #3, toss the drive.

There are several easier and quicker methods. One is, not to take the laptop to Lewisburg, just remove the drive in the house and tossing it from the bank. In this, RFG has to go through a whole series of things. He is probably crossing and recrossing the Susquehanna, taking the laptop itself, and even going to the trouble of removing it from the case first. That is possible, but unlikely.

These are the problems I have with the laptop and suicide. [/*]With that clarification, I can understand.

Not aware of a pen knife.

No reason to cross into the vehicle traffic lanes if on foot when one could just toss it from the pedestrian side, so yes, it lends itself to being tossed from a vehicle.

The hard drive, if truly wanting to conceal, could easily have been thrown a long distance into the river. 4 ounces is all mine weighs. To me, 100' out is more reasonable than just down the bank. It would probably have never been found were it just slipped into a trashcan. Always stood out as a bit sloppy to me, or for the conspiracy minded, planned.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
With that clarification, I can understand.

Not aware of a pen knife.

No reason to cross into the vehicle traffic lanes if on foot when one could just toss it from the pedestrian side, so yes, it lends itself to being tossed from a vehicle.


It's possible as I laid it out, but good Lord, it is not likely.


To me, 100' out is more reasonable than just down the bank. It would probably have never been found were it just slipped into a trashcan. [/*]

It would be darned eassk to take the drive out at home and toss it from the bridge (or the bank).

Another question, can you recall if your uncle ever had a hard drive problem on any computer, where he had to replace it. Humor me, it has a purpose.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled
I was not in this area at the time. I vaguely remember hearing about it in the news. I really don't remember anything about it unfortunately. [/*]

My exposure of it was the Time article in 1985. I remembered the case, but not Wiley's name until I looked it up.

The article mentioned Burnt Cabins, PA, which also caught my interest. I've been past it dozens of times (it's along the PA Turnpike).

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Another question, can you recall if your uncle ever had a hard drive problem on any computer, where he had to replace it. Humor me, it has a purpose. [/*]Not that I'd be aware of. True hard drive failures are actually pretty rare occurrences, so if by chance he had one, it likely would have been at the office and taken care of by tech support.

Now, I'm off to knock on as much wood as I can find after the "rare occurrence" comment...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Not that I'd be aware of. True hard drive failures are actually pretty rare occurrences, so if by chance he had one, it likely would have been at the office and taken care of by tech support.

Now, I'm off to knock on as much wood as I can find after the "rare occurrence" comment... [/*]

I've had two in six years. They are royal pains in the a$$, but they are educational.

If he had ever had one, he's basically know what the destruction of one could do to data.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
With that clarification, I can understand.

Not aware of a pen knife.

No reason to cross into the vehicle traffic lanes if on foot when one could just toss it from the pedestrian side, so yes, it lends itself to being tossed from a vehicle.

The hard drive, if truly wanting to conceal, could easily have been thrown a long distance into the river. 4 ounces is all mine weighs. To me, 100' out is more reasonable than just down the bank. It would probably have never been found were it just slipped into a trashcan. Always stood out as a bit sloppy to me, or for the conspiracy minded, planned. [/*]MOO - If RG tossed the laptop from the Mini, through the passenger window and over the wall, while driving, he must have summoned all his baseball throwing skills of youth. How unlucky no one saw such a coordinated pitch. Maybe it was an "assisted suicide" then? Most baseball games do need a good "closer".

And from the park bank, I doubt the hard drive could have cleared the tree-studded island. But it did also seem strange that it wound up posited between the Mini and the laptop...not to mention that no one who searched there April-June spotted it, or even after the laptop was discovered.

J.J.: Refresh my memory please...on how we know (with a reasonable degree of certainty) that the laptop, with the hard drive intact, were in Bellefonte as of 8:00 AM on 4/15/05. TIA

~Conspiracy-minded, snarky peach

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Not that I'd be aware of. True hard drive failures are actually pretty rare occurrences, so if by chance he had one, it likely would have been at the office and taken care of by tech support.

Now, I'm off to knock on as much wood as I can find after the "rare occurrence" comment... [/*]Rare before the warranty runs out, has been my experience. Some models seem to come with a timed self-destruct mechanism...a conspiracy for another forum I think. JMOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - If RG tossed the laptop from the Mini, through the passenger window and over the wall, while driving, he must have summoned all his baseball throwing skills of youth. How unlucky no one saw such a coordinated pitch. Maybe it was an "assisted suicide" then? Most baseball games do need a good "closer".


I actually tried it with some weight in a satchel (several telephone books. I could toss it from a sitting position more than the approximate distance.


And from the park bank, I doubt the hard drive could have cleared the tree-studded island.


From what I've seen of the photo, it wasn't on the far side of the island.


J.J.: Refresh my memory please...on how we know (with a reasonable degree of certainty) that the laptop, with the hard drive intact, were in Bellefonte as of 8:00 AM on 4/15/05. TIA


If this was suicide, it would very likely be there. TG's question was based on that premise. His statement was: "I've never quite understood how the laptop destruction actually mitigates a suicide scenario in most/all of your eyes. "

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - If RG tossed the laptop from the Mini, through the passenger window and over the wall, while driving, he must have summoned all his baseball throwing skills of youth. How unlucky no one saw such a coordinated pitch. Maybe it was an "assisted suicide" then? Most baseball games do need a good "closer".

And from the park bank, I doubt the hard drive could have cleared the tree-studded island. But it did also seem strange that it wound up posited between the Mini and the laptop...not to mention that no one who searched there April-June spotted it, or even after the laptop was discovered.

J.J.: Refresh my memory please...on how we know (with a reasonable degree of certainty) that the laptop, with the hard drive intact, were in Bellefonte as of 8:00 AM on 4/15/05. TIA

~Conspiracy-minded, snarky peach [/*]

did you ever take any photos when you were there?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

did you ever take any photos when you were there? [/*]Nope. I became very familiar with the scene early on, and did not see a need for photos. I can still picture it now, and it was a very different scene than TG's summer photos. TG was going to post more photos...taken from the first few days he was there. But he has not gotten around to it yet...ala the BPD, PB, etc. MOO

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - If RG tossed the laptop from the Mini, through the passenger window and over the wall, while driving, he must have summoned all his baseball throwing skills of youth. How unlucky no one saw such a coordinated pitch. Maybe it was an "assisted suicide" then? Most baseball games do need a good "closer".

And from the park bank, I doubt the hard drive could have cleared the tree-studded island. But it did also seem strange that it wound up posited between the Mini and the laptop...not to mention that no one who searched there April-June spotted it, or even after the laptop was discovered.[/*]After we took various measurements (Chris and I, not BPD), we realized that it wouldn't take anything close to a miracle toss in order to get the laptop out the window and over the wall. Before measuring, we initially thought such a toss indicated a 2nd party.

Re: the hard drive and the island, one need only walk a bit further towards the main bridge in order to have a clear shot at distance. Photo #2 http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/sitephotos.htm

Now, about that closer... My Indians could definitely use a bit more consistency in that role.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
After we took various measurements (Chris and I, not BPD), we realized that it wouldn't take anything close to a miracle toss in order to get the laptop out the window and over the wall. Before measuring, we initially thought such a toss indicated a 2nd party.

Re: the hard drive and the island, one need only walk a bit further towards the main bridge in order to have a clear shot at distance. Photo #2 http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/sitephotos.htm

Now, about that closer... My Indians could definitely use a bit more consistency in that role. [/*]Interesting. Maybe before you go looking for that box of old photos again, you could post what your FBI bud had to say. Pretty please.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - If RG tossed the laptop from the Mini, through the passenger window and over the wall, while driving, he must have summoned all his baseball throwing skills of youth. How unlucky no one saw such a coordinated pitch. Maybe it was an "assisted suicide" then? Most baseball games do need a good "closer".

And from the park bank, I doubt the hard drive could have cleared the tree-studded island. But it did also seem strange that it wound up posited between the Mini and the laptop...not to mention that no one who searched there April-June spotted it, or even after the laptop was discovered.

J.J.: Refresh my memory please...on how we know (with a reasonable degree of certainty) that the laptop, with the hard drive intact, were in Bellefonte as of 8:00 AM on 4/15/05. TIA

~Conspiracy-minded, snarky peach [/*]

I thought TG's photo showed the hard drive in the mud between the island and the bank??

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I thought TG's photo showed the hard drive in the mud between the island and the bank?? [/*]

I believe you are correct.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
After we took various measurements (Chris and I, not BPD), we realized that it wouldn't take anything close to a miracle toss in order to get the laptop out the window and over the wall. Before measuring, we initially thought such a toss indicated a 2nd party.

Re: the hard drive and the island, one need only walk a bit further towards the main bridge in order to have a clear shot at distance. Photo #2 http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/sitephotos.htm

Now, about that closer... My Indians could definitely use a bit more consistency in that role. [/*]

Your photo #5 is the one I was referring to as being just below the bank and between the island. You have it marked with the rectangular box.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Your photo #5 is the one I was referring to as being just below the bank and between the island. You have it marked with the rectangular box. [/*]Correct, it was in that general area. Serendipitous and I were discussing the hypothetical of disposing of the hard drive in a more concealing fashion, such as throwing it further out from shore, which could have been done very easily.

[sherrijean981]

I was just reading some old posts about RG and BG in OH and when RG went to work as an ADA in OH. I was wondering if LE went to OH and checked his old files there and if someone he convicted to 25-30-40-50 years could have been released. Either by serving their full time or getting out with an early parole or pardon?

TG said he tried rapes, murders, etc, which would get a steeper sentence. That would be plenty of time to grow a hatred to the man who put you away, if they dwelled on that and not on getting a new way of thinking.

If this was discussed previously I apologize. My short and longer term memory seems to be acting up again. :D

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I was just reading some old posts about RG and BG in OH and when RG went to work as an ADA in OH. I was wondering if LE went to OH and checked his old files there and if someone he convicted to 25-30-40-50 years could have been released. Either by serving their full time or getting out with an early parole or pardon?

TG said he tried rapes, murders, etc, which would get a steeper sentence. That would be plenty of time to grow a hatred to the man who put you away, if they dwelled on that and not on getting a new way of thinking.

If this was discussed previously I apologize. My short and longer term memory seems to be acting up again. :D [/*]

This is a guess, but other than just reviewing the files, if that, I doubt if LE could have reviewed all the cases RFG handled directly or indirectly. I thinks it's more of a time factor, they're must be a thousand cases, at least.

It's not a bad idea, but just send an officer out to question each defendant would be exceptionally time consuming.

[J. J. in Phila]

I remembered that JKA had made an issue of caseloads in the campaign and she claims that an ADA would handle about 18 per year.

Giving a very low estimate, 15 cases per year, times 4 ADA's (I think there were more during most of RFG's tenure), times 19 years, that's 1,140 cases, excluding the ones he handled in court personally, just while he was the elected DA. Then you can add on possibly another 180 of the ones he did prior to being elected. Realistically, you are possibly looking at around 1,500 cases.

Even if LE could check on case a day, they couldn't have checked the all at this point. Even that would exclude looking as both the defendant's and the victim's family and friends.

[Serendipitous1]

SJ provided a link to the St. Bee blog (see links thread). A quick search for "Gricar" led to just 2 entries...one (on 4/19/05) which ended with the opinion, "I have a feeling that this will become one of those mysteries which never gets solved"...the other (on 5/12/05) lambasting dumb web polls, citing the one in the CDT: "What do you think? Will psychic Carla Baron be able to aid in the search for Ray Gricar?"

Interesting that this was all that blogger, Steve Biddle, who has several ties to Centre County, could muster - an attack on web polls, and resignation (4 days into the disappearance) to the position that the case would probably never get solved. These 2 entries generated but 2 comments...and 15 total entries in April/May generated only 8 comments. It seems that "St. Bee" gets little notice...perhaps a general reflection of the local apathy. JMOO

[J. J. in Phila]

In my admittedly limited contact with Centre Countians and slightly broader contacts with Central Pennsylvanians, they would be interested in something new about the case. There has not been a lot.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by logicworks
I have yet to see a plea from the family for we, the public, to step in and do something to stop the local and state 'apathy' within the investigation.

Please let us know what branch of LE you believe we, the public, are first expected to take to task, with the family's backing, of course. I have yet to hear that plea.
JMO [/*]Actually, the last time we "made a plea", it apparently opened the door for anyone involved in said "plea" to have their personal data, addresses, photos, theories, etc to be pasted all over this website. This was done with the expressed opinion that since people were standing at a press conference in unity, it opened the door for various invasions.

Now, regarding your amazingly obtuse and myopic argument that you, the citizen, shouldn't question the powers that be without our begging, if you want to boil it down to patriotism, civic duty, or whatever one chooses, I'd say get real and stand up. It's a free country, with an open democracy, one where the public can and should voice their opinions to the gov't. You have no problem voicing your opinions here with sundry theories, many of which could be viewed as much as a time waster as CB's involvement, but now you choose to say that unless we run out in front of a podium, it's not your battle? Ironic, given he was your elected official (apparently), and you yourself have posted many times exactly why people should care. That in itself should also give you the power, or backbone, to question local officials, because I certainly don't recall pleaing for you to vote for RG to begin with.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Well it must be because it is Friday...since the wind is not blowing south today. MOO [/*]

My hubby just informed me it was Friday. I am still on Thursday. :D

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Well it must be because it is Friday...since the wind is not blowing south today. MOO [/*]Funny you mention that as I did realize it.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Actually, the last time we "made a plea", it apparently opened the door for anyone involved in said "plea" to have their personal data, addresses, photos, theories, etc to be pasted all over this website. This was done with the expressed opinion that since people were standing at a press conference in unity, it opened the door for various invasions.

Now, regarding your amazingly obtuse and myopic argument that you, the citizen, shouldn't question the powers that be without our begging, if you want to boil it down to patriotism, civic duty, or whatever one chooses, I'd say get real and stand up. It's a free country, with an open democracy, one where the public can and should voice their opinions to the gov't. You have no problem voicing your opinions here with sundry theories, many of which could be viewed as much as a time waster as CB's involvement, but now you choose to say that unless we run out in front of a podium, it's not your battle? Ironic, given he was your elected official (apparently), and you yourself have posted many times exactly why people should care. That in itself should also give you the power, or backbone, to question local officials, because I certainly don't recall pleaing for you to vote for RG to begin with. [/*]

It would have to be someone from Centre County doing the standing up. The Centre Daily Times will not accept any "letters to the editor" from me, here in Mifflin County, because (as told by one of the editors), I am not a citizen of the county and they need the room in the paper for the Centre County citizens to write their letters.

Ok, Centre County Citizens, get writing! You have the only voices the CDT wants to hear. Even though I purchase their CDT in my county and HAD their web site as my home page it isn't me they want to hear from. And when checking the web site "letter to the editor" page, there is plenty of room for you to do so.

I see Cinderella is busy again. I would really like to know how she knows that the Centre County Commissioners paid RG a salary after he disappeared? I would also like to know how she knows where RG is? What little secrets does she know now? I also see she is flip flopping again on PF. :shrug:

[Politigal]

all I can say is.....

Whut the He** is going on.....


:eek:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
all I can say is..... Whut the He** is going on.....
:eek: [/*]"The dust has only just begun to fall, crop circles in the carpet, sinking feeling." ~ "Immi" Heap
Thanks Politigal. Now I will be humming that song all weekend...again.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal
all I can say is.....

Whut the He** is going on.....


:eek: [/*]We've hit one of those, uh... "troughs" where I'm now in the act of backing up this board for archival purposes.