RAY GRICAR, Missing Centre County DA, cont. [Archive] - Page 2

Cinderella

12-31-2007, 01:21 AM

Serendipitous1
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1017

quote:
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Originally posted by Politigal
<Snip>
I'd give anything to see the look on the person's face if Serendipitous tried to return that tightly rolled up twenty.[/*]
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I think TG was referring to the proclivity of druggies to use rolled bills as "snort straws", and that such a person might spazz if confronted with the evidence...as opposed to my appearance, which, no doubt, would disappoint many (including TG). MOO

Thanks, Pgal, Now I know what S1 means when talking about his appearance. Beast was not the word, but animal it is.

sherrijean981

12-31-2007, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I don't know what SherriJean is talking about when she said that I could not get on last night that I got booted. This is not true as I was on, but I didn't have anything to add. :confused: [/*]

I meant Cloudbuster!

sherrijean981

12-31-2007, 01:53 AM

sherrijean981

12-31-2007, 08:49 AM

I think part of my message was deleted. My previous message concerning who couldn't get on was not all put on.

CLoudbuster and Cinderella were trying to figure out why CB couldn't get on. (per email from CB). It was not supposed to mean Cindi couldn't get on.

Didn't mean to upset you Cindi with that post. Then again you were having the same mysterious missing postings too. It is in fact happening. Just as my having to sign in every time I want to post, as to never having to on previously postings.

sherrijean981

12-31-2007, 09:16 AM

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIA,HPIA:2006-28,HPIA:en&q=ray+gricar&as_ldate=1986&as_hdate=1986&um=1&scoring=t&sa=X&oi=archive&ct=title

[Jan 1986] In the first of the two rapes, which occurred in January 1986, the victim fell and hurt her head while at a gymnastics camp. Newman was convicted of raping the 14-year-old while she was in the X-ray room for an examination, court records said. The second victim did not file charges against the ...
From Centre County man appeals his two rape convictions... - Penn State Digital CollegianRelated web pages

[Mar 19, 1986] from New York to Cairo last night, said Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar. Abdelaziz, a graduate student at Penn State, faced numerous charges, including attempted rape, attempted statutory rape, indecent assault and exposure and corruption of a minor. His wife had been charged with ...
From COUPLE LEAVES FOR EGYPT - Philadelphia Daily News ($$) Related web pages

[May 8, 1986] "I would think that as a practical matter he probably will never get out," said District Attorney Ray Gricar. A forensic psychiatrist testified at Tindal's sanity hearing last month that the defendant was a paranoid schizophrenic.
From JUDGE SPIES INSANITY IN FIANCEE SLAYING - Philadelphia Daily News ($$) Related web pages

gstickley

12-31-2007, 09:58 AM

Good morning. Just checking to see if I could get here if I wanted to.

sherrijean981

12-31-2007, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
Good morning. Just checking to see if I could get here if I wanted to. [/*]

It is strange now. I have to sign in every time I post and before I had it in my favorites and never signed in after the first time.

Hope you have a Happy New Year. Do you have big doings going on? Hubby and I are staying home watching the Bourne Identity Triology, with snacks and blankets to cuddle.

I also have a book in progress and trying to finish so I can get on to one I received from my sister. Love getting books as gifts!

I am still doing searches in old archives on RG. Hoping something strange shows up that might not have before. :)

gstickley

12-31-2007, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

It is strange now. I have to sign in every time I post and before I had it in my favorites and never signed in after the first time.

Hope you have a Happy New Year. Do you have big doings going on? Hubby and I are staying home watching the Bourne Identity Triology, with snacks and blankets to cuddle.

I also have a book in progress and trying to finish so I can get on to one I received from my sister. Love getting books as gifts!

I am still doing searches in old archives on RG. Hoping something strange shows up that might not have before. :) [/*]

Nothing planned for today or tonight. New Year's Eve has always been depressing time for me, so nothing special is planned. OF will be glued to his chair watching football games; hope I can find a good movie; big pork & sauerkraut dinner tomorrow for kids & friends (actually 2 meals, kids won't touch kraut). Will watch ball drop in Times Square. Hope you have a good time. And a good new year.

Politigal

12-31-2007, 12:16 PM

My New Yrs Resolution is to stop researching on this dad-blasted case.

I've just cleaned off my desk, cleaned out my files and I have a full grocery bag of notes that I've kept on this case.

I'm about to properly dispose of them at the curb.

Sadly, I don't believe this case will ever be solved. I don't believe there's any evidence left for law enforcement to find. And IMO, the killer is home free.

I think law enforcement, MM, and Tom Corbett all know this.

I'm not going to quit reading or posting, because you guys are my "neighborhood."

Sherrijean is the church lady who drops off pamphlets weekly

Cinderella is my maillady

GStickley & UTR are my sisters

JJ is my neighbor to the south who gets mad when my leaves blow into his yard

S1 is my neighbor to the north -- he watches me with binoculars

And, Cloudbuster is my Avon lady

Happy New Years Everyone!!

:biggrin:

J. J. in Phila

12-31-2007, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

It is strange now. I have to sign in every time I post and before I had it in my favorites and never signed in after the first time.

Coldwater said it was due to the changeover.

sherrijean981

12-31-2007, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
My New Yrs Resolution is to stop researching on this dad-blasted case.

I've just cleaned off my desk, cleaned out my files and I have a full grocery bag of notes that I've kept on this case.

I'm about to properly dispose of them at the curb.

Sadly, I don't believe this case will ever be solved. I don't believe there's any evidence left for law enforcement to find. And IMO, the killer is home free.

I think law enforcement, MM, and Tom Corbett all know this.

I'm not going to quit reading or posting, because you guys are my "neighborhood."

Sherrijean is the church lady who drops off pamphlets weekly

Cinderella is my maillady

GStickley & UTR are my sisters

JJ is my neighbor to the south who gets mad when my leaves blow into his yard

S1 is my neighbor to the north -- he watches me with binoculars

And, Cloudbuster is my Avon lady

Happy New Years Everyone!!

:biggrin: [/*]

Hi, your local church lady here! You mentioned a family bible you got me, but it will have to be returned. I have a Robert Schuller Positive Thinker's Bible that I enjoy. Thanks anyways.

I don't believe your stash of RG's notes will ever make it to the trash. I have said the same thing and the pile just gets shelved and a new one started. We have all done it, I think.

You say
Quote" Sadly, I don't believe this case will ever be solved. I don't believe there's any evidence left for law enforcement to find. And IMO, the killer is home free.

I think law enforcement, MM, and Tom Corbett all know this" Quote

But I don't believe if PF did the crime as you say and you believe the 3 LE sources are aware of it, that she would be sitting home free. I don't believe our state government and LE are crooked. Maybe a few in the bunch but you are sayiing the main characters are.

I believe they might know where he is, he might be alive, might be living a free life elsewhere, but not that a killer is out there and they know and let them get away with it. Remember, walk-away is not a crime!

By the way, what character do we call you?

Politigal

12-31-2007, 03:38 PM

Just a random observation....

From reading all the posts by various posters on our regular Ray Gricar board, it's evident that a larger number of women as opposed to men, feel that Patty Fornicola may have been involved in the disappearance.

It's also been evident that several men felt sorry for Patty -- both on the board, and in the news -- Pete Bosak, Darrel Zaccagni, etc.

I'm extremely curious if there were ever any female investigators on this case - whether local police or FBI.

I think it might possibly have been a little different investigation.

J. J. in Phila

12-31-2007, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Hi, your local church lady here! You mentioned a family bible you got me, but it will have to be returned. I have a Robert Schuller Positive Thinker's Bible that I enjoy. Thanks anyways.

I don't believe your stash of RG's notes will ever make it to the trash. I have said the same thing and the pile just gets shelved and a new one started. We have all done it, I think.

You say
Sadly, I don't believe this case will ever be solved. I don't believe there's any evidence left for law enforcement to find. And IMO, the killer is home free.

I think law enforcement, MM, and Tom Corbett all know this"

But I don't believe if PF did the crime as you say and you believe the 3 LE sources are aware of it, that she would be sitting home free. I don't believe our state government and LE are crooked. Maybe a few in the bunch but you are sayiing the main characters are.

First of all, I completely agree with SJ on the cover up point. It is ridiculous to suggest that MS, MM, and TC would all suppress evidences just to protect her. She's never held public office and isn't wealthy. Her extended family is locally prominent but not at the state level.

I believe they might know where he is, he might be alive, might be living a free life elsewhere, but not that a killer is out there and they know and let them get away with it. Remember, walk-away is not a crime!

I still don't have a favorite, but, I have to admit, the more I look at this case, the more I wonder if LE didn't find something that pointed to walkaway. If I believed that all the witnesses were 100% accurate, or even 75% accurate, I would be saying walkaway.

By the way, what character do we call you? [/*]

The crazy aunt that they keep in the root cellar?

Politigal

12-31-2007, 04:50 PM

or maybe like Clark Griswold's Aunt Bethany in Vacation :tongue:

gstickley

12-31-2007, 08:38 PM

Glad you're still here, Sister Aunt Bethany. :biggrin:

Cinderella

01-01-2008, 03:16 AM

Happy New Year's Everyone. I am praying that all will be safe and sound and have the happiest year ever. I hope that there is a conclusion to this case. I keep going back and forth. I think in my heart, I feel that Ray is alive and well. I hope that is so.

I know that many of us posters on this board are also interested in other cases. I have been once in a while looking at the Natalie Holloway board. I found this blog very interesting. It also shows some pictures. It just shows how much good can come out of tragedy. Tim Miller is an awesome person. He goes all over or sends people to try to help people locate missing people. If I was the family and Ray was truly miissing, forget the psychic and get in touch with Tim Miller.

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/viii-day-1-side-scan-sonar-search.html

:candy:

J. J. in Phila

01-01-2008, 03:48 AM

A Happy New Year to you and all the posters.

I would like to believe RFG is alive, but I come up with a 58.5% chance that he is not (unless that is the "Big Secret").

Serendipitous1

01-01-2008, 09:32 AM

R ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:santa:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . * . ☼
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . * . * . * . * . ☼ . *
. . . . . . . . . . . ☼ * * . ☼ . * . ☼ . * . * . *=2007
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . * * * * * * * * *
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . * * * * * * *
------------------------------------------------------------
E W . Y E A R ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:santa:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . * . ☼
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ☼ . * . * .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . * . * . * . * . ☼
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . * * * . ☼ . * . ☼ . * .
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . * * * * * * *
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H A P P Y . N E W . Y E A R !
. . . . . . . * 2008 *

Politigal

01-01-2008, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
A Happy New Year to you and all the posters.

I would like to believe RFG is alive, but I come up with a 58.5% chance that he is not (unless that is the "Big Secret"). [/*]

so you agree he was most likely murdered?

Cinderella

01-01-2008, 07:22 PM

S1, I love your post. How do you do that?

Serendipitous1

01-01-2008, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
S1, I love your post. How do you do that? [/*]Intensive therapy at Snark's Rehab. Tomorrow we are going to make pot holders out of cloth noodles.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ;)

sherrijean981

01-02-2008, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Intensive therapy at Snark's Rehab. Tomorrow we are going to make pot holders out of cloth noodles.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ;) [/*]

I was just on the Health and Wellness site and they are discussing making granny squares as therapy. Have you tried that yet?

I was making an afghan years ago with hexagons. Had no pattern to tell me how many squares I needed to make an afghan bedspread for my parents king bed, just kept crocheting. Finally put it together and lo and behold I had made a 9' x 12' size afghan! :D Wow, was it large!! I had to go back and take off large sections of the little buggers to get the size I needed but it was beautiful.

Great therapy but not good for anyone with carpal tunnel.

Your post reminded me of that funny time in my life!:santa:

Laws

01-02-2008, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Laws, I would love to hear what your thoughts are on the case and what you think happened to Ray. [/*]

Healthy & happy 2008 to all those sincere amongst us who do not believe that murder is an acceptable solution.

Couldn't get in until today as the board was not accepting my password. The message board tech took care of it today upon returning from the holiday, Coldwater was kind enough to let me know it would be looked into & poof signed on today & was allowed entry.

This case of Ray Gricar is infuriating to me as the last person known to BE WITH HIM is the chief suspect to me, was pretty much from the beginning but after finding out that such a complete disregard for normal protocol it became a certainty to my mind.

At the beginning I recall it being somewhat intimidated that Ray Gricar may have sought to disappear due to a proclivity toward homosexuality. Wonder who could or would have planted an idea like that about a man who had been married twice & had been presently living with a woman????? Was pity being sought, was the intention to inflame homophobic tendencies held by oh so many who treasure to fault the machismo within them??????

I never forget that a seed is often planted by other than the flower or plant that originally housed it.

day2day

01-02-2008, 03:00 PM

I might just be able to post!?~~ Happy New Years everyone (better late than never, right?!~)

sherrijean981

01-02-2008, 03:09 PM

Where is the body to say Rg was murdered? Where is the body to say suicide? you can't just go around accusing someone of murder without proof.

Or for him to be called a homosexual. I never believed that for a minute. Being in the SOS, a known hangout in that area for men meeting men, does not make it so. Where is the proof that is even true about the SOS and that area? Who was the one who planted that seed? Or was it planted with the bird poop?

J. J. in Phila

01-02-2008, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Laws

At the beginning I recall it being somewhat intimidated that Ray Gricar may have sought to disappear due to a proclivity toward homosexuality. Wonder who could or would have planted an idea like that about a man who had been married twice & had been presently living with a woman????? Was pity being sought, was the intention to inflame homophobic tendencies held by oh so many who treasure to fault the machismo within them??????

The only place where I have seen is on an online site which I think gives a "gay spin," for lack of a better term, on news stories (at least the author tries to).

The same story, IIRC, suggested PEF was a Lesbian. I think it was due to her short hair.

And, if we believe the numerous witness sighting, PEF was not the last known contact.

J. J. in Phila

01-02-2008, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
Where is the body to say Rg was murdered? Where is the body to say suicide? you can't just go around accusing someone of murder without proof.

Or for him to be called a homosexual. I never believed that for a minute. Being in the SOS, a known hangout in that area for men meeting men, does not make it so. Where is the proof that is even true about the SOS and that area? Who was the one who planted that seed? Or was it planted with the bird poop? [/*]

I've never heard that about the SOS.

Just for the record, I think most people who know/knew RFG said that he was heterosexual.

sherrijean981

01-02-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I've never heard that about the SOS.

Just for the record, I think most people who know/knew RFG said that he was heterosexual. [/*]

I am not saying he was, I was speaking in reference to Laws post. I don't have any idea about what goes on in the SOS. It had been mentioned much earlier about the place, not by me.

I also didn't think he was due to the fact he had been married a couple times and had girlfriends a couple times mentioned besides PF.

sherrijean981

01-02-2008, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

The only place where I have seen is on an online site which I think gives a "gay spin," for lack of a better term, on news stories (at least the author tries to).

The same story, IIRC, suggested PEF was a Lesbian. I think it was due to her short hair.

And, if we believe the numerous witness sighting, PEF was not the last known contact. [/*]

I don't think PF would look as good as she does with longer hair. She is very petite and up close her hair is beautiful, a perfect style for her.

If short hair makes a person lesbian, then I know a lot of them. :D

Cloudbuster

01-02-2008, 08:06 PM

Im hoping this post goes thru. I am going thru Court Tv withdraw roflmao! i tried everything to get on but I made it to the post board and can stop shaking a little lol.:)

Cinderella

01-02-2008, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Intensive therapy at Snark's Rehab. Tomorrow we are going to make pot holders out of cloth noodles.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ;) [/*]

What time does the class start. Can you teach left-handers?
Or is it a right-handed class only??

Cinderella

01-02-2008, 09:18 PM

WELCOME BACK EVERYONE WHO COULD NOT GET ON BOARD. PLEASE READ THE MESSAGE ABOUT SNARKY'S CLASSES. ALL OF YOU WHO WISH TO ATTEND SHOULD SEND HIM AN E-MAIL.

ALSO EVERYONE SHOULD REMEMBER THAT THIS IS AN OPINION BOARD. EVERYONE IS FREE TO STATE HIS OR HER OPINION.

THANKS LAWS FOR SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS.

sherrijean981

01-03-2008, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
WELCOME BACK EVERYONE WHO COULD NOT GET ON BOARD. PLEASE READ THE MESSAGE ABOUT SNARKY'S CLASSES. ALL OF YOU WHO WISH TO ATTEND SHOULD SEND HIM AN E-MAIL.

ALSO EVERYONE SHOULD REMEMBER THAT THIS IS AN OPINION BOARD. EVERYONE IS FREE TO STATE HIS OR HER OPINION.

THANKS LAWS FOR SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS. [/*]

EXACTLY!!!!

Cinderella

01-03-2008, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981
Where is the body to say Rg was murdered? Where is the body to say suicide? you can't just go around accusing someone of murder without proof.

Or for him to be called a homosexual. I never believed that for a minute. Being in the SOS, a known hangout in that area for men meeting men, does not make it so. Where is the proof that is even true about the SOS and that area? Who was the one who planted that seed? Or was it planted with the bird poop? [/*]

None of us on this board have any proof. It is an opinion board. SherriJean if you have proof that PF wasn't involved please post that information. Otherwise don't jump down people throats because they don't agree with you. :rolleyes:

sherrijean981

01-03-2008, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

None of us on this board have any proof. It is an opinion board. SherriJean if you have proof that PF wasn't involved please post that information. Otherwise don't jump down people throats because they don't agree with you. :rolleyes: [/*]

Cinderella get off my back! You just said everyone is allowed to voice their opinion and that is what I am doing! Just because you are flip flopping all over the place as far as PF is concerned doesn't mean I have to follow you. I have a mind of my own and will continue to voice my opinion as you all are doing.

I didn't call anyone a murderer! Innocent until proven guilty!

J. J. in Phila

01-03-2008, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I don't think PF would look as good as she does with longer hair. She is very petite and up close her hair is beautiful, a perfect style for her.

If short hair makes a person lesbian, then I know a lot of them. :D [/*]

I know several dozen Lesbians and I can think of three (Sue, Theresa, and, ironically. one named Emma) with short hair. :)

The writer of the piece made much of RFG's liking "antiques (He actually liked collecting things from his childhood)," and being "unmarried (forgetting that he was twice divorced)" as an indication he was gay. :rolleyes:

It was a very good example of stereotyping, but not of substance.

Then again, I thought he was having a mid-life crisis when I first heard about the case. He doesn't seem to have been on closer inspection.

J. J. in Phila

01-03-2008, 01:44 AM

SJ, I've never heard about the SOS being a gay hangout. You're local; does it have that reputation?

sherrijean981

01-03-2008, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I know several dozen Lesbians and I can think of three (Sue, Theresa, and, ironically. one named Emma) with short hair. :)

The writer of the piece made much of RFG's liking "antiques (He actually liked collecting things from his childhood)," and being "unmarried (forgetting that he was twice divorced)" as an indication he was gay. :rolleyes:

It was a very good example of stereotyping, but not of substance.

Then again, I thought he was having a mid-life crisis when I first heard about the case. He doesn't seem to have been on closer inspection. [/*]

I know the mid life crisis can happen to men, but couldn't one of his marriage/divorce situations already have been one? Wanting the young outgoing woman but after a couple years of marriage it wasn't what he wanted, or he woke up and said "What the heck did I get myself into?" I know that has happened to some too.

As to the short hair/lesbian, I know some with short hair, but sometimes one has long hair.

J. J. in Phila

01-03-2008, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I know the mid life crisis can happen to men, but couldn't one of his marriage/divorce situations already have been one? Wanting the young outgoing woman but after a couple years of marriage it wasn't what he wanted, or he woke up and said "What the heck did I get myself into?" I know that has happened to some too.

As to the short hair/lesbian, I know some with short hair, but sometimes one has long hair. [/*]

This is what I thought at first:

1. Young girlfriend, possibly left his for her.

2. Sports car (and I would see a Mini Cooper as being a sports car).

3. Planning to chuck it all at the end of the year.

In reality:

1. In a long term relationship with someone why wasn't an outgoing type (they liked to walk, play Trivial Pursuit). His previous wife was more outgoing and left him prior to the current relationship.

2. Car was less "flashy" than his previous one (according to TG).

3. Well planned retirement, announced well in advance.

It doesn't look like a midlife crisis, when you examine it.

Yes, I abandoned a lot of my initial theories in this case.

Cinderella

01-03-2008, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/mcall/access/91862690.html?dids=91862690:91862690&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Oct+5%2C+1990&author=TIM+REEVES%2C+The+Morning+Call&pub=Morning+Call&edition=&startpage=A.01&desc=DA+GETS+PUNCHED+AS+PARDONS+BOARD+VOTES+IN+PUB LIC

1990 Partial article. You have to pay money for the full article.

Document

Start a New Search | Previous Results
Buy Complete Document: Abstract Full Text Page Print
DA GETS PUNCHED AS PARDONS BOARD VOTES IN PUBLIC
[FIFTH Edition]

Morning Call - Allentown, Pa.
Author: TIM REEVES, The Morning Call
Date: Oct 5, 1990
Start Page: A.01
Section: NATIONAL
Text Word Count: 432

Abstract (Document Summary)
The woman punched Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar and "told me she better not catch me alone," Gricar said. He was unhurt.

Several board members cited security concerns in opposing public voting. The Morning Call argued that juries are required to state their verdicts publicly, and the Pardons Board should, too. Besides, the paper argued, the state Constitution requires it.

Morning Call attorney James Imbriaco said that interpretation of the ruling was "ludicrous." He noted that the specific records sought by The Morning Call, and granted by the court, were from a December 1989 meeting on a request for clemency by convicted murderer Richard Klinger of Monroe County. [/*]

This article brought be to the question about how one gets on a pardons board? How many times was Ray on a pardon's board.
Instead of guessing, can someone tell me what the procedure is.
I know that they are at a correctional facility and sometimes they are reported in the newspaper, but very little of what goes on in a pardon's board is ever made public. Usually only the verdict.

Any attorneys or judges out there?

sherrijean981

01-03-2008, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

This is what I thought at first:

1. Young girlfriend, possibly left his for her.

2. Sports car (and I would see a Mini Cooper as being a sports car).

3. Planning to chuck it all at the end of the year.

In reality:

1. In a long term relationship with someone why wasn't an outgoing type (they liked to walk, play Trivial Pursuit). His previous wife was more outgoing and left him prior to the current relationship.

2. Car was less "flashy" than his previous one (according to TG).

3. Well planned retirement, announced well in advance.

It doesn't look like a midlife crisis, when you examine it.

Yes, I abandoned a lot of my initial theories in this case. [/*]

I was referring to EG as the young wife, but didn't realise she left him.

Yes, he announced his retirement Jan of 2004 didn't he? In order for others to run for the job? He had also said it had nothing to do with what went on recently, which would have been late 2003 and I did find that list of things that had been going on at that time. Wasn't having a run of good luck in the courts.

I thought maybe the Mini was to drive across states without a lot of gas usage. A perfect car for 2 on a trip, or at least I think so. I checked one out one day in a parking lot and there was more room in it than I had thought previously.

J. J. in Phila

01-03-2008, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I was referring to EG as the young wife, but didn't realise she left him.

That one might have been; I don't know, but PEF doesn't seem to have been part of a mid-like crisis.

Yes, he announced his retirement Jan of 2004 didn't he? In order for others to run for the job?

The only time I've heard one that early, from a local official, is due to a health problem or when they stand up on election night and say, **This will be my last term. **

That whole statement just seems wrong, and that's a gut reaction.

sherrijean981

01-03-2008, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

That one might have been; I don't know, but PEF doesn't seem to have been part of a mid-like crisis.

The only time I've heard one that early, from a local official, is due to a health problem or when they stand up on election night and say, **This will be my last term. **

That whole statement just seems wrong, and that's a gut reaction. [/*]

What seems wrong about what statement? His saying he was retiring at the end of his term, in 2005, but it was said in 1/2004? Or it had nothing to do with anything that recently happened?

J. J. in Phila

01-03-2008, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

What seems wrong about what statement? His saying he was retiring at the end of his term, in 2005, but it was said in 1/2004? Or it had nothing to do with anything that recently happened? [/*]

There wasn't that much that had recently happened.

I find both the timing and comment unusual.

Normally, you might announce that in December 2004 or January 2005. Why would he want to appear as a lame duck for more than a year?

Second, not practice law. You can practice law part-time; you can so and make money at it. Why would he rule out private practice?

sherrijean981

01-03-2008, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

There wasn't that much that had recently happened.

I find both the timing and comment unusual.

Normally, you might announce that in December 2004 or January 2005. Why would he want to appear as a lame duck for more than a year?

Second, not practice law. You can practice law part-time; you can so and make money at it. Why would he rule out private practice? [/*]

Maybe he was ill? Would explain his napping at work and being more tired.

He was also 59 and that is my age now. I am forgetting things, not as quick as I used to be. I have never napped or slept much but lately I have been taking naps and am more tired than I have ever been.

His being an attorney, maybe he felt it wasn't the way he wanted to perform his job. Maybe he was just mentally exhausted with it all. Maybe it was his time just to be done with it and get out and see the states and spend time with his daughter and PF. Seeing things he had been planning for how long? He had a map drawn out with all his routes on it. In fact, maybe he is doing just that now? You never know!

J. J. in Phila

01-03-2008, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Maybe he was ill? Would explain his napping at work and being more tired.

He was also 59 and that is my age now. I am forgetting things, not as quick as I used to be. I have never napped or slept much but lately I have been taking naps and am more tired than I have ever been.

His being an attorney, maybe he felt it wasn't the way he wanted to perform his job. Maybe he was just mentally exhausted with it all. Maybe it was his time just to be done with it and get out and see the states and spend time with his daughter and PF. Seeing things he had been planning for how long? He had a map drawn out with all his routes on it. In fact, maybe he is doing just that now? You never know! [/*]

He was 58 when he said it.

The only times when seen something that far in advance have been due to health reasons or announcement just after winning relection.

The only times that I've ever heard an attorney saying that was due to ill health or facing disbarment (and the latter did not apply to RFG).

It strikes me as odd, it's always bothered me, both in that he wouldn't be practicing and the timing of the announcement.

I'll agree, it's more of a personal feeling, and it may be nothing. If I knew RFG, maybe it wouldn't bother me, but looking at it from the outside, it sure does.

sherrijean981

01-03-2008, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

He was 58 when he said it.

The only times when seen something that far in advance have been due to health reasons or announcement just after winning relection.

The only times that I've ever heard an attorney saying that was due to ill health or facing disbarment (and the latter did not apply to RFG).

It strikes me as odd, it's always bothered me, both in that he wouldn't be practicing and the timing of the announcement.

I'll agree, it's more of a personal feeling, and it may be nothing. If I knew RFG, maybe it wouldn't bother me, but looking at it from the outside, it sure does. [/*]

He has looked sick or something in the last photo's of him. At first I thought he was really stressed or upset a lot, but after looking over the photo's on one of the sites, it is like looking at someone sick. Maybe you are right? He doesn't seem like the kind of person who would burden someone with an illness.

gstickley

01-03-2008, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

He has looked sick or something in the last photo's of him. At first I thought he was really stressed or upset a lot, but after looking over the photo's on one of the sites, it is like looking at someone sick. Maybe you are right? He doesn't seem like the kind of person who would burden someone with an illness. [/*]

I'm sorry, but I don't think RG would just "walk away" or "commit suicide" because of an illness, no matter how bad the illness might be. He might not want to burden his family with an illness, but I absolutely don't believe he would "walk away" or "commit suicide" & leave his family, esp. LG, just hanging, not knowing what happened to him.

If he did become ill, I believe his family would have known about it. Still . . . if they did know, why would they continue to pepetuate the fraud?

day2day

01-03-2008, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

I'm sorry, but I don't think RG would just "walk away" or "commit suicide" because of an illness, no matter how bad the illness might be. He might not want to burden his family with an illness, but I absolutely don't believe he would "walk away" or "commit suicide" & leave his family, esp. LG, just hanging, not knowing what happened to him.

If he did become ill, I believe his family would have known about it. Still . . . if they did know, why would they continue to pepetuate the fraud? [/*]

I agree gs. It is hard for me to believe that Mr. Gricar just "walked away" from LG. I can almost see him walking away from PF but NOT from his pride and joy...

And we all have seen just a LITTLE of what TG has lived through. There is NO WAY he knows where Mr. Gricar is..no way..nope -i don't buy that for ONE second...

I do agree that Mr. Gricar just doesn't look "right" in the last picture...like he was under an enormous amount of stress...

jmo as usual..

Politigal

01-03-2008, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Some more photos from the 3/30/05 press conference with the AG, that I had not seen before:

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs2-366x244.jpg

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs3-366x244.jpg

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs5-366x244.jpg

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedimages/image%20gallery/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs/20050330-StateCollegeDrugs7-366x244.jpg

MOO - a solemn group (even MM) if I ever saw one. [/*]

bumping for day2day

Day - S1 posted these additional photos of the press conference - and RG looks fine here....not as serious as in the other

day2day

01-03-2008, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

bumping for day2day

Day - S1 posted these additional photos of the press conference - and RG looks fine here....not as serious as in the other [/*]

Thanks for the bump pgal~ and thanks for posting them S1. I agree..he looks MUCH better in these photos...!! I really don't believe he was sick..even though that idea was "tested" by PF early on in the investigation.

Serendipitous1

01-03-2008, 11:48 PM

Lots of splatter marks on these "walls"...but not much seems to have stuck. I still wonder about the 49% probability of suicide. I found this on the "floor" (from psychobabble):

1. As a member of Law Enforcement he is at +risk for suicide
2. Immediate Family Member Suicide + risk
3. Major Life Change Approaching (retirement) +risk
4. Time period immediately (sometimes days) preceeding suicide...is frequently a period of improved mood, relaxed demeanor.....because the victim's "struggle" is over....the decision has been made.
5. Lack of ownership of property may be the result of needing to feel unencumbered...or it may mean absolutely nothing...many people have little or no desire for such possessions....
6. Again....I would love to be wrong....but suicidal depression is what I can best describe as "The Abyss" it consumes you on the inside....while on the outside it CAN divulge nothing.......

If you know someone who has been depressed....then seems to "snap out of it".....You must insist that they seek treatment
It is a big red flag. People who are deemed to be a danger to themselves MUST be admitted for treatment (usually 72 hrs) Regardless of the ability to pay!

I have been to the "Abyss". I survived. Many don't.

Cinderella

01-04-2008, 12:25 AM

I have seen many taken to the emergency room and revived just in time. I saw more men than women. That doesn't necessary say that more men commit suicide. It is soooo sad. I am glad that you survived S1. I would have to say that many more aren't reached in time. It is all kept hush hush. We see obitituaries all the time, but they don't mention suicide any more like they used to.

My step brother committed suicide. He gave no warning and he left no note. I would really think that if Ray did commit suicide, that they would have found the body by now. I just don't think that the person that wants to commit suicide has the strength to drive that far, when he could have done it closer to home.

Cinderella

01-04-2008, 12:28 AM

Just a side note, I have heard and not sure if this is true, but they say that dentists have a higher incidence of suicide than other occupations. :shrug:

J. J. in Phila

01-04-2008, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I have seen many taken to the emergency room and revived just in time. I saw more men than women. That doesn't necessary say that more men commit suicide. It is soooo sad. I am glad that you survived S1. I would have to say that many more aren't reached in time. It is all kept hush hush. We see obitituaries all the time, but they don't mention suicide any more like they used to.

My step brother committed suicide. He gave no warning and he left no note. I would really think that if Ray did commit suicide, that they would have found the body by now. I just don't think that the person that wants to commit suicide has the strength to drive that far, when he could have done it closer to home. [/*]

Notes are actually uncommon; they occur in a minority of cases.

As some you know, we had a suicide down the street from me this summer. He was not a resident and had to drive about 10 miles to get here. TG has mentioned that his father drove a distance to commit suicide.

I give it a 15% chance, but it is possible.

sherrijean981

01-04-2008, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

I'm sorry, but I don't think RG would just "walk away" or "commit suicide" because of an illness, no matter how bad the illness might be. He might not want to burden his family with an illness, but I absolutely don't believe he would "walk away" or "commit suicide" & leave his family, esp. LG, just hanging, not knowing what happened to him.

If he did become ill, I believe his family would have known about it. Still . . . if they did know, why would they continue to pepetuate the fraud? [/*]

I don't believe JJ nor myself said he committed suicide or walked away. We were talking about why he said he was retiring so early in 2004. I just said he didn't seem like the type to burden others with an illness and in the last known photo of him he looked sick or very upset.

Since there is no body to say he was murdered or committed suicide and no one has come forward with any proof of either, that leaves walk away, with or without help. But all 3 theories are still open because there is no kind of proof of any of them.

Since no one is out in WA, no one knows what is going on out there, if LG has been in contact, if he is near her. No one knows but her.

Cloudbuster

01-04-2008, 01:04 AM

Depression can come upon anyone and feeling hopeless can lead one into suicide. Problem is RG had everything to feel GOOD about. He was 8 months from retirement and he was looking forward to traveling he even said something to TG didn't he about possibly showing up on his lawn with a camper (something like that).

He didn't seem to have finacial problems. The very fact he was still into his antiques several weeks earlier (per Marshall's shop). His last picture he seemed upset but maybe that really was because of the seriousness of the d bust.

Only thing that catches my attention is what his Co workers said about something being wrong 2 weeks prior to disappearance. I think the man was looking for a solution to something pressing him in a big way. I believe the day of disappearance that RG thought he was going to find the solution to his problem at any cost and not by suicide. I feel he was upset and hit a all time feeling that he may have to take matters and deal with them his own way. I believe he meet someone and wanted things on the table outright. RG was not one to run IMO or to back down - problem is they also knew that.

The words "how long can I go on with this?" meaning behind them words. He knew he was being crossed and by the who's. He wanted it all out that day. He loved enough not to cross them. Yes whoever he knew he was crossed. I think the who's would have known at some point that day except IMOO he didn't get that oppurtunity. IMO he struggled it to the end whatever that means but I think it means he held all that was going on inside himself and that day he wanted it all out in the open. Seems 2 sets of people involved a RG side and another different side seems they was working together cause one side was crossed and it ended up that for whatever reasons it ended up RG got crossed and I think the peson that met with RG that day was discussing how he ended up crossed. Problem IMO is who RG stumbled upon and who's side was that person on?

You really gotta look through the facade.

unconvential disclaimer/ Pgal get ready your friendly avon lady is about to take your order lol.:biggrin:

sherrijean981

01-04-2008, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Notes are actually uncommon; they occur in a minority of cases.

As some you know, we had a suicide down the street from me this summer. He was not a resident and had to drive about 10 miles to get here. TG has mentioned that his father drove a distance to commit suicide.

I give it a 15% chance, but it is possible. [/*]

We have had a couple suicides in our area, with one driving back into the mountains to do it. Both young women. There were also others who passed away but it was never officially said if suicide but people who knew the person said so. Usually they are over doses of drugs they are doing.

Politigal

01-04-2008, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
respectfully snipped -- You really gotta look through the facade.

unconvential disclaimer/ Pgal get ready your friendly avon lady is about to take your order lol.:biggrin: [/*]

:)

I admire the way you are always looking deep into this case, but IMO, it's something much simpler.

I don't believe there was any big conspiracy, or any big secret at all.

I think there might have been a "teensy weensy" secret - between 2 people, and it escalated into a crime.

----
do you have any of the scratch & sniff perfume samples? I love those.

:biggrin:

Serendipitous1

01-04-2008, 01:12 AM

Try to focus, Cinderella. I am not psychobabble (who I quoted), although (not that it matters) I have been down that "road" before, and survived...without "professional" help. My own opinion, for what it is worth, is that "if dead men don't drive", neither do they return to "salt the waters".

I do not know what to make of LG. But if she was that close to her dad, I believe she would have sensed something...if only in retrospect (as so often seems to be the case). With all due respect to the family spokesperson...and I mean that sincerely (how's your game going over there, TG?)...there is "a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together". JMOO

Cloudbuster

01-04-2008, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

He was 58 when he said it.

The only times when seen something that far in advance have been due to health reasons or announcement just after winning relection.

The only times that I've ever heard an attorney saying that was due to ill health or facing disbarment (and the latter did not apply to RFG).

It strikes me as odd, it's always bothered me, both in that he wouldn't be practicing and the timing of the announcement.

I'll agree, it's more of a personal feeling, and it may be nothing. If I knew RFG, maybe it wouldn't bother me, but looking at it from the outside, it sure does. [/*]

JJ I gotta agree with your personal feeling on that and it's also odd in what did they mean by what recently happened cause that is unusual.

Cloudbuster

01-04-2008, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

:)

I admire the way you are always looking deep into this case, but IMO, it's something much simpler.

I don't believe there was any big conspiracy, or any big secret at all.

I think there might have been a "teensy weensy" secret - between 2 people, and it escalated into a crime.

----
do you have any of the scratch & sniff perfume samples? I love those.

:biggrin: [/*]

Pgal I respectfully disagree. I feel its more than just 2 tiny persons but I do understand what your saying. I can count 8 and climbing.

I have Imari and Sweet Honesty scratch -n sniffs and you gotta try the the newest tecnology product which is a favorite of mine its called Anew and it works on everyone. roflmao if you don't like the product there is a money back guarentee but if you decide to return the product I must add my gas charges and time charges lol.:lol:

Serendipitous1

01-04-2008, 01:37 AM

Politigal's newest "signature"
Consider *who* had access to Patty Fornicola's upstairs closet where the laptop was kept.... [/*]Realistically, there were only two people...I agree. But, I wonder what scene actually presented itself. A case without a laptop? If someone wanted to "convey" that "appearance", it would make much more sense that it was RG than PF. If so, the question is...why?

Politigal

01-04-2008, 01:38 AM

Cloudbuster

01-04-2008, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Realistically, there were only two people...I agree. But, I wonder what scene actually presented itself. A case without a laptop? If someone wanted to "convey" that "appearance", it would make much more sense that it was RG than PF. If so, the question is...why? [/*]

S1 it makes alot of sense that RG pulled over and tossed it and that is due to him being followed and he knew it. They wanted the laptop and RG knew it. Scenrio INO the K got the laptop and RG preceeded to his meeting with someone.

MOO RG knew that he was being followed and he tested this out by parking and moving different places as per some witnesses. he finally settles to SOS to meet. I don't think in this scenario that it wouldn't have been hard for RG to agree to get into the persons car.

MOO k had the laptop and it was RG who pulled over and tossed it. Working on the why.

Just a theory. PS Pgal I wish you could teach me some of your web designing and PC tech stuff!!!!

Serendipitous1

01-04-2008, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

Why does it make more sense for RG to convey that appearance?
:shrug: [/*]Because, though there is not much public information to go on, she apparently did not lead LE to "the closet". I do not know how the scene presented. But if PF wanted to create the "impression" that the laptop was there, why not let LE do the "discovering", since she would certainly know LE would eventually ask about it? If the case presented as if the laptop was still inside, it seems more likely to me that it was RG who wanted to convey that appearance to PF (were she to have looked without inspecting).

Cloudbuster

01-04-2008, 02:20 AM

To answer the why you would need to ask a Robert A and the A is a middle intial IMOO. That word is associated with the crossing going on and also with the Who's. Im sure they know who that is. If you figure out the Robert A who he is let me know so I know.
IMOO he is known well to RG and 2 who's. Since RG didn't seem to have alot of social life this person would be someone within RG's line of work. I suppose the quest is who is Robert A and I got no last name to go with.

Once again a disclaimer.

Serendipitous1

01-04-2008, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
<Snips>
S1 is my neighbor to the north -- he watches me with binoculars [/*]Imagine how RG's loved ones feel! I have. And yet, all any of them had to do was to say, please stop.

http://www.cafepress.com/cp/moredetails.aspx?showBleed=false&ProductNo=68764321&colorNo=0&pr=F

J. J. in Phila

01-04-2008, 03:25 AM

LW, first, in the bulk of missing persons cases, LE does not immediately send in a task force. This case is unique in that it is a DA that has gone missing, and that has not happened in PA, or possibly anywhere else so far as I know.

Originally posted by logicworks

In order for the particular profiler in RG's case to reach the conclusion of 'suicide', he had to FIRST place RG in Lewisburg, and a car with a few sightings of someone unknown to the sighters does NOT place RG in Lewisburg. Guess he also had RG smoking.

Placing RFG in Lewisburg is more that a few witnesses; it includes physical evidence.

IMO, the laptop and hard drive pointed toward someone who wanted to 'misdirect' LE. If that is the case, then what eliminates the location of a smoked filled car with ashes in it from not being part of the same person's earlier 'misdirecting'?

You've concluded that we should ignore all the evidence; that's a great way to solve this. :rolleyes:

The problem with the laptop is that it doesn't point people in the direction of suicide; it points away from it. Most people don't bring a laptop to a suicide.

If the laptop were left at home, it would would make suicide more likely. He'd have to believe that that RFG took the drive out of the laptop and then tossed the laptop in separately, probably when heading in the "wrong" direction across the bridge.

No proof of suicide without a body but certainly sounds reminiscent of the JL sad tune.
JMO

Not even close, because we have a body in the JPL case, the weapon used, and a more detailed view of his route to the scene where his body was found.

J. J. in Phila

01-04-2008, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Because, though there is not much public information to go on, she apparently did not lead LE to "the closet". I do not know how the scene presented. But if PF wanted to create the "impression" that the laptop was there, why not let LE do the "discovering", since she would certainly know LE would eventually ask about it? If the case presented as if the laptop was still inside, it seems more likely to me that it was RG who wanted to convey that appearance to PF (were she to have looked without inspecting). [/*]

And why even mention it to LE? She's in a stressful situation and could understandably "forget" that an "unused" laptop was upstairs.

They might figure out that it is missing a few days later, but I would have been sitting in the river for a few more days by that point.

J. J. in Phila

01-04-2008, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

In the news, it stated LE went to the house for the computer(s), which seems to be a day after DetZ went to the office, accompanied by who? Why didn't DetZ then go on to collect the laptop also?

According to TG, who was there, LE came to the house on Sunday 14/17/05 (afternoon or evening) to get the desk top. They/he asked if RFG had any other computers. PEF remembered the laptop and went to get it (I don't know if she was accompanied or not). Then came back and said it was gone.

If my memory or summarization is incorrect TG can jump in and correct it.

LE (and I don't know if it was Detective Z), didn't know about the laptop until they asked for any other computers.

Are we to assume the county did not know he had a laptop, and that they hadn't already checked the office to see if it was there.

I doubt if they had checked the inventory at the county at that point.

Politigal

01-04-2008, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Because, though there is not much public information to go on, she apparently did not lead LE to "the closet". I do not know how the scene presented. But if PF wanted to create the "impression" that the laptop was there, why not let LE do the "discovering", since she would certainly know LE would eventually ask about it? If the case presented as if the laptop was still inside, it seems more likely to me that it was RG who wanted to convey that appearance to PF (were she to have looked without inspecting). [/*]

Not necessarily....

It was tucked away in a closet. She said they had not been using it. She said he never took it anywhere that she could recall.

IMO, out of sight - out of mind.

She simply forgot about the laptop til they came calling. I think it "vanished" right then & there....

Politigal

01-05-2008, 02:49 AM

J. J. in Phila

01-05-2008, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Do you think PF didn't know on Saturday morning, that DetZ was interested in getting into the office to check out RG's computer at work? In doing so, one would certainly think that would automatically bring the laptop to mind, considering it was work-connected.

A very stressful time, a lot of activity on 4/17/05 prior to the request, a near state of shock. His two nephews mentioning their father's suicide by downing in a river.

You know, we have posters here who can't remember what was posted a few months ago, and none of us are currently in that same level of stress. You have JKA who was off by five months on when the Mini was purchased; she wasn't facing the same amount of stress PEF was on 4/17/05.

No, I actually don't think those people stupid, just human. If PEF had forgotten that there was a (supposedly) unused computer upstairs and not remembered it for a day or two, it would be understandable.

How could it be 'out of mind' when up to 3.5 months prior it was being used by both of them as home computer?
What would possibly cause such a 'memory loss' in such a short time?

I'll make sure that the next time you, UTR, or GS forgets, I will make sure to quote this.

Politigal

01-05-2008, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

A very stressful time, a lot of activity on 4/17/05 prior to the request, a near state of shock. snipped. [/*]

I agree it was probably a very stressful and hectic time....

But I think you & I disagree on the possible reasons for the stress.

if someone committed murder they might be a little stressed...

J. J. in Phila

01-05-2008, 03:03 AM

And we can probably say that the laptop didn't vanish then and there, because there was a police presence at the house, possibly in Lewisburg, and later LE searched the house.

We also don't know if LE then went up stairs to check it and retrieve the case.

Politigal

01-05-2008, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
And we can probably say that the laptop didn't vanish then and there, because there was a police presence at the house, possibly in Lewisburg, and later LE searched the house.

We also don't know if LE then went up stairs to check it and retrieve the case. [/*]

From what's been reported -- law enforcement did not search the house. They did a "walk thru."

Cloudbuster

01-05-2008, 03:15 AM

When my sis went missing thats all the state police did was a walk thru. They only walked into the livingroom and no further and took the report and that was it. They said if they would find her car without her that things would change in how they was dealing with it. if they would have found her car without her then they said they could go her employment and ask questions and also they wanted to question her boyfriend in more depth. They found his story a little suspious. When RG's car was found without him they could have then asked questions at his employment.

J. J. in Phila

01-05-2008, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
When my sis went missing thats all the state police did was a walk thru. They only walked into the livingroom and no further and took the report and that was it. They said if they would find her car without her that things would change in how they was dealing with it. if they would have found her car without her then they said they could go her employment and ask questions and also they wanted to question her boyfriend in more depth. They found his story a little suspious. When RG's car was found without him they could have then asked questions at his employment. [/*]

One key difference is that that LE went through the house in the week after RFG disappeared, looking for evidence that something happened, like a spot where something had been cleaned up. They found none.

It should also be noted that PEF permitted the search without a warrant.

That first weekend, and even into that week, LE came on strong. Then it stopped. They basically cleared PEF, and then stopped.

Cinderella

01-05-2008, 03:54 AM

If the same situation would have happened to me, I would want to know what might help me locate Ray. The laptop would be one of the first things that I myself would probably look at. I probably would have looked at it on Friday evening when I was worried that he wasn't home before I called LE.

LE had already asked for a password on Saturday, so that in itself would want me to get the laptop.

I would have called everyone that I knew to see if they saw Ray. I would have called the family and asked if anyone had spoken to him later that day. If someone had, then that would give a clue as to where he might be.

Then again, I also would have asked someone like my brother to go with me on the route that Ray took to see if we could see Ray.
I might be thinking that his car broke down or he got a flat tire. But that is me and I am not PF.

I feel when you are in a panic, all you want to do is find out where Ray is. I also know that LE or DA's also know the danger of others. My husband wasn't LE, but he worked in a capacity like LE. Early in our relationship, he told me that he was always cautious. So it didn't come as a surprise if Ray would encounter someone that wanted to harm him. Also with him being a witness for something on Monday and the big drug case starting, you bet that I would be looking for him.

I would also hope that if I went missing and didn't show up that my loved ones would be looking for me.

Cinderella

01-05-2008, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

One key difference is that that LE went through the house in the week after RFG disappeared, looking for evidence that something happened, like a spot where something had been cleaned up. They found none.

"You said it J. J. In a week. Why not immediately. They had enough help."

It should also be noted that PEF permitted the search without a warrant.

"J. J. do you know how that would make PF look if she wanted them to get a search warrant? Red Flag"

That first weekend, and even into that week, LE came on strong. Then it stopped. They basically cleared PEF, and then stopped. [/*]

"J. J., you got it right on this one. You state they basically cleared PEF, and then stopped." Why did they stop???

J. J. in Phila

01-05-2008, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
If the same situation would have happened to me, I would want to know what might help me locate Ray. The laptop would be one of the first things that I myself would probably look at. I probably would have looked at it on Friday evening when I was worried that he wasn't home before I called LE.

As far as PEF knew, the laptop was sitting unused, upstairs and hadn't been used in months. If someone in my family, I wouldn't be looking at an "unused" computer.

LE had already asked for a password on Saturday, so that in itself would want me to get the laptop.

That was his office computer, and I'd expect they would be looking for a schedule or an e-mail.

I would have called everyone that I knew to see if they saw Ray. I would have called the family and asked if anyone had spoken to him later that day. If someone had, then that would give a clue as to where he might be.

The first thing that should be done is to call LE.

Then again, I also would have asked someone like my brother to go with me on the route that Ray took to see if we could see Ray.

And what route would that be? PEF doesn't even what cell tower the call bounced off of when RFG made the call.

Also with him being a witness for something on Monday and the big drug case starting, you bet that I would be looking for him.

According to TG, he was testifying that an ADA could examine a witness, without a conflict. He would also be there to examine the witness if the judge said no.

I would also hope that if I went missing and didn't show up that my loved ones would be looking for me.

If I had some idea where they were. PEF didn't.

"You said it J. J. In a week. Why not immediately. They had enough help."

First, there in the house prior to that. It is because they expected that he might be back. Remember, LE has no idea what happened. Also, it was within that week. I think CB indicated standard procedure.

"J. J. do you know how that would make PF look if she wanted them to get a search warrant? Red Flag"

We've had some posters that have said they wouldn't give their addresses to TG if LE asked for them in this case. Red flag?

If there was something, red flag or not, PEF would have said no. She didn't.

"J. J., you got it right on this one. You state they basically cleared PEF, and then stopped." Why did they stop???

The looked at PEF, at BJL, and then seem to have stopped. They didn't check out that "inner circle." They didn't look at car purchases (which might have taken a month to process). I do not know why.

Walkaway is probably the easiest thing to (mostly) rule out or rule in. The didn't do that.

day2day

01-05-2008, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

I agree it was probably a very stressful and hectic time....

But I think you & I disagree on the possible reasons for the stress.

if someone committed murder they might be a little stressed... [/*]

Something really bothers me. PF and others have said that Mr. Gricar rarely used the laptop. I am wondering just when and WHY PF thought to check on it! IF my SO vanished ..i would be checking for things he used OFTEN-like clothes and things..a rarely used laptop would NOT be high on my list..?!!:shrug:

J. J. in Phila

01-05-2008, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Something really bothers me. PF and others have said that Mr. Gricar rarely used the laptop. I am wondering just when and WHY PF thought to check on it! IF my SO vanished ..i would be checking for things he used OFTEN-like clothes and things..a rarely used laptop would NOT be high on my list..?!!:shrug: [/*]

I shoould put up the quote from LW about short memory span. :)

According to TG, in the evening of 4/17/05, LE was at the house to look at/get the desktop. They asked PEF if RFG had another computer and she mentioned the laptop.

Now another poster suggested that was involved in one of the "Patty plots," somehow. If so, why woudn't she, at least, pretend she forgot about it? No, LE doesn't know what computers RFG has, and when they ask if there is another computer, PEF volunteers that there is.

Politigal

01-05-2008, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I shoould put up the quote from LW about short memory span. :)

According to TG, in the evening of 4/17/05, LE was at the house to look at/get the desktop. They asked PEF if RFG had another computer and she mentioned the laptop.

Now another poster suggested that was involved in one of the "Patty plots," somehow. If so, why woudn't she, at least, pretend she forgot about it? No, LE doesn't know what computers RFG has, and when they ask if there is another computer, PEF volunteers that there is. [/*]

I don't recall Tony posting that Patty mentioned & offered the laptop. That was something written on some other websites.

I feel certain that law enforcement were aware that Gricar had a County Issued laptop....

Cinderella

01-05-2008, 07:07 PM

J. J., you can explain everything away. It is like you wrap this case up in a neat little package tied with a ribbon. You can wrong LE, but PF in your book did everything normal. NOT

Maybe I would have done what she did if I had a roommate or stranger living with me, but this was her "SOUL MATE". Yes I would have been calling people and worried sick and driving around to see if he was here or there. In reality, I think that he called and wanted her to let the dog out at noon. He called her close to her going to lunch. I do think that she expected him home in time for supper. I think that there are a lot of inconsistencies in her story. He was taking a half-day, he was taking a whole day. He rolled over and went back to sleep, we did our morning routine, I took him a glass of orange juice. Her story just doesn't jive and that is what makes her look "suspicious". She just HAPPENED to be the receptionist that day. Did the staff really get an e-mail? What did the e-mail say, he was taking the day off, he was taking a half day off. Patty is an intelligent person. She knew what was going on with Ray, soul mates find out. And what does the phrase "We will wait as long as it takes?" Seems to me that that set the stage for him to return. If I was LE, I would think that he was coming back. I think that PF was the one that screwed the whole case up. I still think that he disappeared Thursday evening.

BTW, PF is not unfamiliar with cases and what people do. This could have been a very good investigation if she had not wanted to be on camera.

Also the scene in the park with Vicki Wedler addressing PF and Ray. I feel it is rather odd about the response. At first I thought that it might be about PF's feelings for VW, but then if someone was breaking up or wanting more space or to retire without me, then I would have been upset with VW's comment. No one can say that Ray didn't want to move on without PF.

When PF started into her crying act, I wondered at the time if it was because she was guilty of harming Ray and she felt remorse.

I believe that if something happened to Ray, he would want his daughter to know right away. I would not want my children to be called the next day. PF could have even called them after she called LE.

There are two sides to every story. Are there two sides to P.F.?

JUST MY OWN OPINIONS and MY OPINIONS ONLY

Cinderella

01-05-2008, 07:09 PM

I would like to think that LE talked to P.F.'s ex husband to find out about P.F.'s true self. I think that this may help them greatly if the ex is honest and truthful with LE.

J. J. in Phila

01-05-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., you can explain everything away. It is like you wrap this case up in a neat little package tied with a ribbon. You can wrong LE, but PF in your book did everything normal. NOT

Cind, as far as I'm concerned, honestly answering LE's question on if RFG had another computer doesn't need to be explained away. LE asking about it is reasonable and part of what the did correctly.

He rolled over and went back to sleep, we did our morning routine, I took him a glass of orange juice. Her story just doesn't jive and that is what makes her look "suspicious".

Doesn't jive with what? That he woke up, possibly went to the bathroom and then announced that he'd take the day off?

She just HAPPENED to be the receptionist that day.

Yes, since the staff rotates it.

Did the staff really get an e-mail? What did the e-mail say, he was taking the day off, he was taking a half day off. Patty is an intelligent person. She knew what was going on with Ray, soul mates find out.

I love your baseless assumption here. I've pointed that the e-mail would be available to LE, because it be in the server.

And what does the phrase "We will wait as long as it takes?" Seems to me that that set the stage for him to return. If I was LE, I would think that he was coming back. I think that PF was the one that screwed the whole case up. I still think that he disappeared Thursday evening.

If I looked at all the witnesses, and nothing else, I'd assume he walked away. PEF isn't the one doing the case. The decisions after that week were those of LE.

The Mini was magically transported to Lewisburg under this scenario, right?

Also the scene in the park with Vicki Wedler addressing PF and Ray. I feel it is rather odd about the response. At first I thought that it might be about PF's feelings for VW, but then if someone was breaking up or wanting more space or to retire without me, then I would have been upset with VW's comment. No one can say that Ray didn't want to move on without PF.

Yes, RFG can; he could have done told up through his actions, getting a motel room, renting a car, changing his address. Those things didn't happen.

I believe that if something happened to Ray, he would want his daughter to know right away. I would not want my children to be called the next day. PF could have even called them after she called LE.

His daughter is 3000 miles away. He could have had a car breakdown someplace, or simply have had too much to drink with dinner and decided to get a room.

As for the tears, I really don't care one way or another; I care about evidence.

Serendipitous1

01-05-2008, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

It would appear she did 'forget abut it', from Saturday morning ---at which time DetZ decided he needed in the office to look at the work computer--- until Sunday evening. Why wasn't it offered at that time on Saturday morning?
The claim 'he never used it' doesn't hold any water, (no pun intended,) considering I remember reading in the news that he used it at home for work related matters.
JMO [/*]I do not believe LE was attempting to take custody of all RG-accessed computers at one time or looking to retrieve possible evidence (which implies a crime had been committed). I believe LE was in the beginnings of a methodical process to look for clues as to where RG may have gone. Computers were one place to look, and it appears they started with the one in his office. According to KA's information, that happened on Saturday afternoon.

The first press conference was late that afternoon, and the abandoned Mini was found early evening. At some point (I cannot find a time reference for it, other than what Politigal and J.J. posted) LE went to the house to get the desktop. If we believe the Renner piece (CFT), it was after the car had been processed. Again according to KA's information, PF was in the Lewisburg area late Sunday morning. So perhaps LE went to the house for the desktop later Sunday, or on Monday.

Renner wrote that DZ said, when we (he and _?_) went to the house to get the computer, PF asked if we also wanted his work laptop; that she and RG had been using it to do Internet searches and things, but had recently bought a separate one for the home, so they did not use it anymore; and that she went up and brought down the empty case, saying "It's not here."

J. J. in Phila

01-05-2008, 10:15 PM

day2day

01-05-2008, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I shoould put up the quote from LW about short memory span. :)

According to TG, in the evening of 4/17/05, LE was at the house to look at/get the desktop. They asked PEF if RFG had another computer and she mentioned the laptop.

Now another poster suggested that was involved in one of the "Patty plots," somehow. If so, why woudn't she, at least, pretend she forgot about it? No, LE doesn't know what computers RFG has, and when they ask if there is another computer, PEF volunteers that there is. [/*]

:D post it please! I have SO many things on my plate i'm surprised i can remember my name!~~

In reality..if Mr. Gricar was goin to walk away..why would he need to take a puter he NEVER used. Doesn't make sense. This whole case makes little or no sense to me. Zero.

J. J. in Phila

01-06-2008, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by day2day

:D post it please! I have SO many things on my plate i'm surprised i can remember my name!~~

Logicworks
Senior Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 1877

How could it be 'out of mind' when up to 3.5 months prior it was being used by both of them as home computer?
What would possibly cause such a 'memory loss' in such a short time?
JMO

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

01-05-2008 01:46 AM

Basically, TG (possibly on one of the deleted threads) mentioned the circumstances around the discovery that the laptop was missing. LE came on 4/17 and asked to see (or take) the desktop. Then they asked if RFG had any other computers and, with that PEF said that there was the laptop and went to get it.

In reality..if Mr. Gricar was goin to walk away..why would he need to take a puter he NEVER used. Doesn't make sense. This whole case makes little or no sense to me. Zero.

Actually, if this was a walkaway, he might have travel plans, maps, bank account numbers, contact information, or communications with a "helper." There are numerous other thinks that are not related to walk away.

J. J. in Phila

01-06-2008, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Don't confuse the two completely different times of computer access/gathering........with the first occurrence/access on Saturday morning. Why wasn't the laptop offered on Saturday morning?
[/qute]

It wasn't "offered up because LE didn't ask about his computer access until 4/17. Now you claiming that PEF should have anticipated what LE wanted, more than 24 hours in advance.

[quote]
"I forgot" doesn't seem very plausible or likely to me as a realistic response. Girlfriend forgets boyfriend has a laptop? In this case, NO way do I see it holding even the most remote possibility.

It seemed that way to me, and, from what she's posted, D2D. It would not be the first thing in my mind.

I haven't forgotten about Saturday morning or how many hours later it was before LE went to the house to collect.
In my opinion lack of a Saturday offering is MUCH more important that the later offering.
Why did it take more than 18 hours for LE to go to the house to ask for the computer?

Because they didn't care about an "unused" computer, in the first stages. From the search pattern, it started to look with a man missing, in his car in a wooded area. A recently used computer might give a destination, i.e. an e-mail that said, "Meet me at the bridge in Lock Haven at 3:00 PM."

IMO, the big question is not why the laptop was 'missing' or why it was found where it was found. Both seem easily answered if the big question can be answered, which is..... was the hard drive that was found proven to be that which originated from RG's laptop? If it was from RG's computer, then IMO, it was solely a 'plant'. Anything incriminating in any way would have gone with whomever removed it and never returned.

Since it is clear that the hard drive was removed prior to the toss, that point is moot.

The fact that it or one like it even appeared at all, points heavily toward someone 'planting' it who wanted it found.

Why? The hard drive is good evidence against suicide, and neutral toward the walk away or murder choices.

If it could be proven to have come from RG's laptop, then the planter had to be someone who knew there was nothing incriminating on it. No one else would ever bring it back to plant.
JMO [/*]

Or, the person who tossed it didn't want the "incriminating" evidence found on the drive and made sure it would be destroyed.

sherrijean981

01-07-2008, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I do not believe LE was attempting to take custody of all RG-accessed computers at one time or looking to retrieve possible evidence (which implies a crime had been committed). I believe LE was in the beginnings of a methodical process to look for clues as to where RG may have gone. Computers were one place to look, and it appears they started with the one in his office. According to KA's information, that happened on Saturday afternoon.

The first press conference was late that afternoon, and the abandoned Mini was found early evening. At some point (I cannot find a time reference for it, other than what Politigal and J.J. posted) LE went to the house to get the desktop. If we believe the Renner piece (CFT), it was after the car had been processed. Again according to KA's information, PF was in the Lewisburg area late Sunday morning. So perhaps LE went to the house for the desktop later Sunday, or on Monday.

Renner wrote that DZ said, when we (he and _?_) went to the house to get the computer, PF asked if we also wanted his work laptop; that she and RG had been using it to do Internet searches and things, but had recently bought a separate one for the home, so they did not use it anymore; and that she went up and brought down the empty case, saying "It's not here." [/*]

I have a question about the person he was emailing the night before he disappeared. Was she the attorney for a case they were working on, that was going to court very soon? Or was she the client of the other attorney, the person he was prosectuing? Whose initials were they? Attorney or a person he was prosecuting?

Serendipitous1

01-08-2008, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I have a question about the person he was emailing the night before he disappeared. Was she the attorney for a case they were working on, that was going to court very soon? Or was she the client of the other attorney, the person he was prosectuing? Whose initials were they? Attorney or a person he was prosecuting? [/*]I took it that the person was representing the defendant...and the exchange of emails was said to be on "the day before he disappeared and a bunch during that week."

Politigal

01-08-2008, 12:37 AM

lw's prev posted this from cdt

SPM.......(CDT)
I was wondering if you (and the police?) were aware that not only did the asst. da feel certain she saw ray in the back parking lot around 3, but that one of our judges also backed her up, indicating he saw him there also. 2 people who knew him are very hard to discount! She saw him in a car that was goldish or tannish and...I was told but do not know this first hand, that Patti has a second goldish tannish car. It is possible he for some reason came back and disappeared from state college!

Also, I had a homicide by vehicle trial with Ray scheduled for June 1. *****We had emailed back and forth the day before he disappeared and a bunch during that week.******
While Im not sure I have anything to add, it is odd that I was not questioned. He was joking around and seemed to be looking forward to our trial as it had been in the paper and garnered some controversy. Im glad the interest is renewed. Ray deserves to stay in the headlines this mystery is solved. SPM 5/13/06

i'm assuming spm is stacy p miller

Politigal

01-08-2008, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I believe that is a safe assumption.
I have always been rather curious as to whether jealousy may have been building and played a role. SPM is a beautiful woman. I recently saw her crossing the street by the courthouse and she is absolutely stunning, impeccably dressed, PLUS an attorney.

Was it ever mentioned that LE found the emails that went back and forth between SPM and RG? Did his originate from the office computer? If not found, does that mean RG was using his laptop that week? I would think that should be able to be proven by checking her emails to and from him.
JMO [/*]

she is very pretty

http://mkclaw.com/parksmiller.html

i'm curious - did judge kistler prev work at this same firm

Politigal

01-08-2008, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

http://www.fetc.state.pa.us/fetc/cwp/view.asp?a=3&q=191677 [/*]

thx

J. J. in Phila

01-08-2008, 01:35 AM

One thing on the e-mails, there should be a copy of each email sent and received in the main frame of the e-mail provider. LE can check.

sherrijean981

01-08-2008, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

she is very pretty

http://mkclaw.com/parksmiller.html

i'm curious - did judge kistler prev work at this same firm [/*]

She is beautiful, but maybe RG was reminded of his daughter? She looks like LG with her long blond hair.

I wonder if the younger John Miller II is her father? or brother? I went to school with John and his wife and SPM could pass for Mrs. Miller's daughter.

Her credentials are amazing for someone who looks so young.

tonyGricar

01-09-2008, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

According to TG, who was there, LE came to the house on Sunday 14/17/05 (afternoon or evening) to get the desk top. They/he asked if RFG had any other computers. PEF remembered the laptop and went to get it (I don't know if she was accompanied or not). Then came back and said it was gone.

If my memory or summarization is incorrect TG can jump in and correct it.

LE (and I don't know if it was Detective Z), didn't know about the laptop until they asked for any other computers.

Also, as many times as I've clarified the "Ray was testifying about something on the next Monday" thing, I can't do it any more, Cinderella. I'm not sure if you simply choose to ignore the reality of it to

I doubt if they had checked the inventory at the county at that point. [/*]I'll post a clarification here instead of addressing the email I received so that nothing is lost in translation.

Z and Thal were at the house to discuss the case, questions, etc. They asked to take the home pc and Patty subsequently asked them if they also wanted his work laptop. There was no "ooops, almost forgot" from Patty or delay between their retrieval of the desktop and an attempt to gather the laptop. This occurred during the same event. She then discovered the laptop was not in the case. Neither Z nor Thal indicated that they were aware that a county-issued laptop should be in the home.

As for why wait allllll the way until Sunday to retrieve his computers, exactly how large is the staff of the BPD? All were busy at the scene, which was 60 miles away. It wasn't until searching ended on Sunday that the opportunity presented itself to start collecting pc's. I clearly have various criticisms of the investigation, some related to evidence, but in no way do I have any issue with how the pc's were handled. Personally, and given my background, I'd prefer if they didn't collect the pc's for another day or two...

__________________
Consider *who* had access to Patty Fornicola's upstairs closet where the laptop was kept....

Uhhh... Who are the two people who lived there, Alex?

ladyheartfixer

01-09-2008, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
.

As for why wait allllll the way until Sunday to retrieve his computers, exactly how large is the staff of the BPD? All were busy at the scene, which was 60 miles away.
__________________
[/*]

ummm..and why was the BPD the one's doing the investigation 60 miles away? That should have been the Lewisburg PD and/or the Staties from that area...not BPD...imo (which isn't worth 50 cents here and still won't buy you a cup of coffee at McDonalds).

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
ummm..and why was the BPD the one's doing the investigation 60 miles away? That should have been the Lewisburg PD and/or the Staties from that area...not BPD...imo [/*]I questioned this aspect immediately. The report was filed with BPD, and BPD was also the law enforcement body in charge of handling any threats to the DA's office (ahead of the County Sheriff and PSP - no idea why, btw). Obviously, no LE organization in Lewisburg, or it's county, had an issue with BPD heading the investigation. Dixon, Thal, Z, and many others were in Lewisburg Sat and Sun. Heck, even Karen Arnold was apparently in Lewisburg.

IMO, I felt that the PSP should have been handling it from the 1st hour due to potential manpower and jurisdictional issues that could have arisen given the geographic spread. The fact that the various bodies assumedly played nice together, in my eyes, doesn't supercede the fact that potentially investigation-hindering issues could have arisen.

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Beg to differ..........Detective Z went to the office on SATURDAY morning to get to the office computer. He was NOT busy 60 miles away because at that point in time they obviously must NOT have known where the car was. We are told the car was found on Saturday evening, 6-6:30-ish PM.
So the question remains, why weren't ALL of the computers collected on SATURDAY morning? AND why weren't ALL of the computers MENTIONED and OFFERED on Saturday morning? Were they?
JMO [/*]If you may have NOTICED I did NOT mention Saturday MORNING. I would be mildly SURPRISED if any investigation would have advanced to that level so SOON, given that they apparently did not KNOW that he had an UNACCOUNTED for laptop. Report taken LATE Friday. Searching done Friday night/Saturday morning. Office checked Saturday MORNING. If they don't know to immediately look for a laptop, does it yet EXIST in investigator's eyes? Patty was a bit occupied Saturday morning to offer up a little-used laptop. Karen Arnold was de facto in-command of the DAs office and aware of the laptop.

I was not as connected emotionally to this as PF, and I didn't think of computers (which normally would be the first thing I'd ask to check). Do I think she should have run into the BPD with her home pc and Ray's laptop? In a word: No.

It's an easy response for me to have, but until you've been through something similar, you have no idea what you deal with. It's just that simple. A little-used laptop as an item of import for PF less than 12 hours into the investigation? Nope.

Yep, Caps are fun...

Politigal

01-10-2008, 12:26 AM

hmmm (http://www.inftek.com/assets/multimedia/jeopardy.wav)

pf and rg for $1000 !!!

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar If they don't know to immediately look for a laptop, does it yet EXIST in investigator's eyes? Patty was a bit occupied Saturday morning to offer up a little-used laptop. Karen Arnold was de facto in-command of the DAs office and aware of the laptop.

In a brief, half-hearted, semi-defense (because there was no attack) of JKA, I wouldn't expect the first thing for her to say, **Oh, Ray had a laptop; you better check.**

On Saturday morning, one very real impossibility was that RFG had been in an accident, that he had a mechanical breakdown in a rural area, that he was ill, hospitalized or in his pulled over Mini or a motel room, or that he might have taken off to an Indian's game, probably in that order. The laptop, which was thought by PEF to be unused, and not normally seen with him at the office, was the furthest thing from anyone's mind.

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
In a brief, half-hearted, semi-defense (because there was no attack) of JKA, I wouldn't expect the first thing for her to say, **Oh, Ray had a laptop; you better check.**[/*]Nor would I, which is why I raised her name.

I'm just stunned by the incredulous nature of such comments as, "AND why weren't ALL of the computers MENTIONED and OFFERED on Saturday morning?". God forbid anyone humanize any aspect of people involved and what was on their minds less than 12 hours into this ordeal.

As the esteemed philospher, Casey Casum, so eloquently once said, "This is ponderous, man. Simply ponderous.".

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

On Saturday morning, one very real impossibility was that RFG had been in an accident, that he had a mechanical breakdown in a rural area, that he was ill, hospitalized or in his pulled over Mini or a motel room, or that he might have taken off to an Indian's game, probably in that order. The laptop, which was thought by PEF to be unused, and not normally seen with him at the office, was the furthest thing from anyone's mind. [/*]

That should be "one very real possibility," in the first line. My spell checker is acting up.

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 02:09 AM

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

We aren't talking about people who aren't familiar with investigations or LE procedure. We are talking about people who have 'been there, done that' for years, and in quite a number of capacities, thus able to view it from more angles than most.
Possibly someone who had never been involved in or witnessed an investigation, but in this case, we are talking 'seasoned' for years.
I personally find it 'ponderous' to think that people with experience could possibly 'overlook' asking for ALL the computers at the same time, with the first coming from the home where he was last seen by PF.
JMO [/*]Great points you raised. Less than 12 hours after she called the police, I can't believe PF wasn't operating in full, professional work mode (didn't realize admin assistants/victim advocates are deemed to be police investigators). Even when you add in his brother's outcome, and her knowledge of it, I guess I should be as stunned as you. Damn that delay on collecting a laptop that wasn't there... :rolleyes:

Btw, if discovering the laptop wasn't there, how would that alter the course of the immediate investigation? Any thoughts?

Never thought about it before, but while beating a dead horse, might as well speculate on this one and it's impact on the investigation. My own thoughts are that it would not have much immediate impact. Time would have been spent working through the office to find it, or to contact tech support to see if it was turned in at any point. Not knowing the scenario we were dealing with, Ray just as easily could have had the laptop with him, which further makes the issue somewhat moot as it wouldn't be found for a couple/few months. I guess it comes down to a continued flogging of PF for not rushing to BPD with a "very"-secondary pc, which, as it turns out, wasn't possible given it's being missing and all.

The laptop discovered missing 12 hours into the case, or 36 hours into the case: Either way, it only illustrated that something wasn't right that day. 12 hours, 36 hours, 2 months, or 2.75 years doesn't change that.

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 02:37 AM

Just stumbled across this video on YouTube. Interesting stuff. I don't know her personally, but she obviously was taken by Ray's case.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gTZjE_GaVr4

Cloudbuster

01-10-2008, 03:15 AM

I never saw the video either but she has a beautiful heartfelt voice and I love the video it's interesting.

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 03:25 AM

LW, here is what JKA said about the laptop:

I have a very limited recall of specific events during the first several weeks of the investigation and the order in which they occurred, as there was a great deal going on with both my cases and the approaching primary election in mid-May, 2005. All staff as far as I can recall were present except Ray's paramour, who was off for perhaps two weeks, and ADA Sloane, who continued to be off on medical leave. I recall high anxiety levels among staff on the day of the river search, which ultimately yielded nothing. I can recall all of the office staff being asked to search their individual offices/work areas for Ray's laptop, because it could not be found at his house.

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

Emphasis added.

Now, I doubt that, with the car missing, there would have been any search for the laptop, if it had been found missing. I doubt if JKA or MS would have called the staff together on Sunday and ask them to start searching. At best, LE could have asked the staff to begin searching about 24 hours earlier, and they still would be searching the river at that point.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything other than woolly logic here as to the significance of when the laptop was reported missing.

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 03:27 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I never saw the video either but she has a beautiful heartfelt voice and I love the video it's interesting. [/*]The song, Hide and Seek (from Imogen Heap's Speak for Yourself album - ironically on my ipod), fits the video quite well.

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 03:58 AM

sherrijean981

01-10-2008, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Just stumbled across this video on YouTube. Interesting stuff. I don't know her personally, but she obviously was taken by Ray's case.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gTZjE_GaVr4 [/*]

What a nice site for Ray. She did a beautiful job! She sure makes anything look possible with those photo's. :rose:

day2day

01-10-2008, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

What a nice site for Ray. She did a beautiful job! She sure makes anything look possible with those photo's. :rose: [/*]

I agree..she did a wonderful job. :rose:

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Just stumbled across this video on YouTube. Interesting stuff. I don't know her personally, but she obviously was taken by Ray's case.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gTZjE_GaVr4 [/*]Very nice first video. She seems to be struggling with several issues (per her "Remember" video, etc.). Interesting Dunmore/Lackawanna County connection. Just a coincidence, I suppose. MOO

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by logicworks
***Conducts special investigations for the courts and/or boards and processes paperwork involved. ****

This investigation is not the gathering evidence in a crime. The key is "processes paperwork involved."

[/quote]
Many PO's carry a licensed weapon for protection and are trained in the use of a weapon.
JMO [/QUOTE]

Some can but PEF hasn't been one for years. We don't have any report of her going out to the pistol range.

We also have zero evidence that RFG was shot. In Lewisburg, we had nothing from the cadaver dog. Neither of the trailing dogs found anything, which they would likely do if there had been a bloody crime there.

Talk about trying to weave PEF into a murder scenario.:rolleyes:

Politigal

01-10-2008, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Very nice first video. She seems to be struggling with several issues (per her "Remember" video, etc.). Interesting Dunmore/Lackawanna County connection. Just a coincidence, I suppose. MOO [/*]

i noticed her videos are linked here also

http://www.disappearance.net/Ray_Gricar/

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 03:12 PM

day2day

01-10-2008, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, (LOVE these caps) will ever make up for the failure to call for a thorough investigation within the FIRST 24 hours with the thorough investigation originating at the house.

The statement indicating the house should be the designated 'gathering place' because it is how RG would have wanted it should have sent up a dozen red flags.
IMO, the lack of proper procedure in the FIRST 24 hours is the full and total crux of the problem with this case, 2.75 years later.

In lieu of a thorough investigation, we are left with 'muddling' and interpretations of criteria, info which had absolutely nothing, nada, zilch to do with what should have been done. The 'common plea' to a teenager to 'come home, we are waiting for you' relates to RG in what way? He wasn't in the 'at risk' group because he wasn't a child, aged, mentally impaired, drug-dependent, or pregnant female.

He should have been immediately moved into 'at risk' simply because of his position as County DA and his work with the WRC.
I have NOT been surprised a body has not appeared proving suicide, as was headlined in the days two days after the disappearance as being most likely possibility for disappearance. Based on what? Supposed naps that can't be verified?

Instead of a thorough investigation we are left with a break-down of a system that was never fully orchestrated or put into play which I see as resulting from various 'conflicts of interest' in both counties involved.

If PF wasn't to be viewed as an investigator, she shouldn't have been given the time or the 'free hand' to act as one. There appear to be 'tight reins' on the case to not be pushed higher, while we have the daughter monitoring his banking account, and PF monitoring his emails. None of this is common to a case, let alone a case of a missing county official.

With no one leading, it comes as no surprise that much of what is presented appears to be more in the line of 'misleading'.
JMO [/*]

I love LOVE love this post, logic. Best post and the most logical (go figure ..lol) post I have read here in a LONG LONG time ..( i love caps too)
PF-setting up her home for a "gathering place"
PF-searching her own home-
LG-watching the bank accounts
PF- checking the emails...

That should give LE plenty of time to interview friends , family, neighbors...BUT -they didn't bother!! So just what were they doin...?!?!

All of these things bother me just about as much as the fact PF never searched for this man...

as always jmho

sherrijean981

01-10-2008, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by day2day

All of these things bother me just about as much as the fact PF never searched for this man...
[/*]

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. No one knows what PF was doing, FOR A FACT, to help in the search and investigation of missing DA Ray Gricar, her SO. The only way anyone will know that is if they were watching her 24/7 and I don't believe anyone has been doing that.

What makes everyone think that if we, total strangers to RG, are driving the roads to Lewisburg, going through SOS a half dozen times, taking hundreds of photos, looking in rivers, on all the roads from Lewisburg to Milton, to Shikellemy Park and beyond, up and down RT 192, Rt 45, Rt 220, Rt 15 and on the Marsh Creek Rd, Rt 144 and other back roads, down banks, along the rivers, walking up dirt roads in parks, over one mountain and then another, month after month, putting up fliers, calling people we know in different areas to keep an eye out, emailing dozens of fliers to different counties to be put out, mailing letters to churches, newspapers, radio stations, state senators and sheriffs offices, calling LE in different counties with potentiall useless info, that his girlfriend wouldn't be doing the same thing???????

Oh and that was just me, so I can imagine what she is doing. Has anyone ever ask her if she needs help looking? No, I thought not!

That is JMUO

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 04:52 PM

But remember, "You just can't make a wrong turn in Pennsylvania"..."Just give me that map."

"Lost Again - a parody of Imogen Heap's 'Hide and Seek'".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xwp_jXUziM

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by day2day

I love LOVE love this post, logic. Best post and the most logical (go figure ..lol) post I have read here in a LONG LONG time ..( i love caps too)
PF-setting up her home for a "gathering place"

She reported it from there and it is where RFG lived.

PF-searching her own home-

As has been pointed out REPEATEDLY, LE searched the home, with is unusual in missing persons cases.

Now, I have to ask, how someone could have seen this repeatedly and failed to remember it.

LG-watching the bank accounts

I have no idea how that involves PEF.

PF- checking the emails...

... on an account, possibly her join account on a computer in her living room. Do you expect me to check your e-mail?

Cinderella

01-10-2008, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

SNIP
----------------
Oh and that was just me, so I can imagine what she is doing. Has anyone ever ask her if she needs help looking? No, I thought not!

That is JMUO [/*]

If someone did that she might accused them of "STALKING" like she tried to accuse me of.

day2day

01-10-2008, 06:48 PM

SJ...
You are right..noone really DOES know what PF was doing on the night of 4/15/2005 or for the nearly three years since he vanished.
IF she has been "searching" for him..she does it very quietly-like we do.
Just bothers me...thats all.
JMO ...as usual...

day2day

01-10-2008, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

If someone did that she might accused them of "STALKING" like she tried to accuse me of. [/*]

I wasn't going to say that...but i was thinking the same thing.

day2day

01-10-2008, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

... on an account, possibly her join account on a computer in her living room. Do you expect me to check your e-mail? [/*]

Oh JJ...how many people share an email account?...And it was not HER living room...HE paid for the place ...it was "theirs" wasn't it?

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Oh JJ...how many people share an email account?...And it was not HER living room...HE paid for the place ...it was "theirs" wasn't it? [/*]

On a home account, a lot, including most of my family, and several clients.

It was owned by PEF, who had to pay the mortgage on it well before RFG entered the picture.

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

If someone did that she might accused them of "STALKING" like she tried to accuse me of. [/*]

... or, they simply shared an account.

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by logicworks
The statement indicating the house should be the designated 'gathering place' because it is how RG would have wanted it should have sent up a dozen red flags.

??? I don't recall the quote saying it's what Ray would have wanted. I'd like the article for my archives as I don't recall that one.
To me, if PF were involved, I'm thinking keeping people OUT of the house would be most logical. Maybe it's the classic Godfather quote of keeping your friends close... Either way, LE wanted a known voice to be there to answer the phone. That's SOP. I guess we screwed up when my Father disappeared by all congregating at their house as well, absent any evidence even.

IMO, the lack of proper procedure in the FIRST 24 hours is the full and total crux of the problem with this case, 2.75 years later.

I can't completely disagree, but you clearly don't have much background on missing person cases. There is another person on here who has such experience and they've corroborated what SOP is for cases absent evidence of a crime. Do I think that's right, given the unknowns? Of course not. I'd love to see it changed so that other's don't feel things were missed on their own cases, regardless of age, race, sex, professional background.

He should have been immediately moved into 'at risk' simply because of his position as County DA and his work with the WRC.

100% agreed.

while we have the daughter monitoring his banking account, and PF monitoring his emails.
This is an absurd over-simplification that I'm not getting into YET AGAIN.

With no one leading, it comes as no surprise that much of what is presented appears to be more in the line of 'misleading'.
JMO

As a concerned, local citizen, push for change.

day2day

01-10-2008, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

On a home account, a lot, including most of my family, and several clients.

It was owned by PEF, who had to pay the mortgage on it well before RFG entered the picture. [/*]

I shared many things with my ex...my email account was not one of them. I have never heard of anyone sharing a personal email account. And i really doubt that PF had the right to Mr. Gricar's work email account..

And it WAS owned by PF...Mr. Gricar paid off the mortgage that imo makes it "their" home. So you believe it was still HERS? If you do...i don't wanna make any deals with you ..lol

but that is just my opinion.

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by day2day
All of these things bother me just about as much as the fact PF never searched for this man...[/*]

Really? I wasn't aware of this "fact".

I know when we were in Lewisburg during the initial days, reporters were "somehow" under the impression we were LE and were trying to do our work.

day2day

01-10-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar

Really? I wasn't aware of this "fact".

I know when we were in Lewisburg during the initial days, reporters were "somehow" under the impression we were LE and were trying to do our work. [/*]

I can dig YOUR posts up if you want me to TG. I am pretty sure you have said MANY of times PF never left the house on 4/15.

I have followed MANY missing persons cases and usually the person closest to the missing person leads the search party. I can't recall seeing PF's pic leading the search. If i missed it ..please post the link!

Did you tell the reporters you were NOT LE or did you allow them to continue believing..hmmmm?~

Oh and another case comes to mind where a SO/wife is missing and the remaining SO didn't lead the search...Drew Peterson.

JMO...

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 07:49 PM

I must have MISSED where you specified 4/15...

Btw, check with LE and see if they prefer the primary, connected person to be out blindly searching nowhere in particular, or being near the phone. If you want, I'll get you in touch with my step-mother so you can admonish her for not searching for my Father. I guess I'm just surprised that people want LE following strict procedures, but in the same breath, choose to ignore those that are followed. Oh, and I was put into the position as lead from our side.

Why would we let reporters think we were LE for as long as we could? Privacy and attention to the task at hand. Plain and simple, so I'm not sure why you added the odd, accusatory "hmmmmm". If you'd have been to the scene, large group of reporters, and national satellite trucks, you might have a smidge of understanding.

I'm not sure who Drew Peterson is. Is he part of this case? If not, you cast a rather wide net to attempt to implicate PF via the apparent behaviours of someone not connected to this case. Seems fair...

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
If someone did that she might accused them of "STALKING" like she tried to accuse me of. [/*]I gave you that descriptor, not her.

Politigal

01-10-2008, 07:53 PM

i just wish we all knew what tony knows. it's apparent that he does not suspect any involvement by pf - at all - in rg's disappearance. but to many of us - it's difficult to see past her....

:shrug:

day2day

01-10-2008, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I must have MISSED where you specified 4/15...

Btw, check with LE and see if they prefer the primary, connected person to be out blindly searching nowhere in particular, or being near the phone. If you want, I'll get you in touch with my step-mother so you can admonish her for not searching for my Father. I guess I'm just surprised that people want LE following strict procedures, but in the same breath, choose to ignore those that are followed. Oh, and I was put into the position as lead from our side.

Why would we let reporters think we were LE for as long as we could? Privacy and attention to the task at hand. Plain and simple, so I'm not sure why you added the odd, accusatory "hmmmmm". If you'd have been to the scene, large group of reporters, and national satellite trucks, you might have a smidge of understanding.

I'm not sure who Drew Peterson is. Is he part of this case? If not, you cast a rather wide net to attempt to implicate PF via the apparent behaviours of someone not connected to this case. Seems fair... [/*]

Yanno...I'm not here to argue with you . I have my views on this case...you obviously have yours. You amaze me at times...after two + years you still don't get the picture. Everyone here is fighting for the TRUTH for YOUR family ..and you choose to fight the only people who seem to care...I just will never understand.
And most of us have our own battles to fight..and I am pretty sure i haven't seen you jump in to fight them for us...**shrugs**

Nice to know that you picked up CB powers while you were "out of the country" ..seein as you know what my "hmmm" means...
:rolleyes:

And it amazes ME that LE would NOT want PF to search (protocol ya know)..and yet this is just about THE only part of protocol they would follow in this case?!

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
i just wish we all knew what tony knows. it's apparent that he does not suspect any involvement by pf - at all - in rg's disappearance. but to many of us - it's difficult to see past her....

:shrug: [/*]Change the tables a bit. Your son disappears under similar circumstances, with the same amount of real evidence. Your daughter-in-law passes a poly, nothing ties her to it. Do you continue hammering her 3 years later? Does your gut feeling and guess trump all else? What if she were actually innocent?

Look at the way I deal with some on her on occassion. I'm a wretch of a human being, pessimistic, don't believe it until I see it, with an ego the size of your home state. Do you think I would not afford the same to someone who may have had a hand in the disappearance of one of my two remaining "adult" relatives?

Now, gut instinct, by not knowing any of the players, is not evidence. If you were to show evidence beyond gut, I'd be the first person all over it, as I have been with various tips sent in. Until that point, the pounding of someone who, presumed innocent, has lost a loved one seems to lack a modicum of human decency. For me, like BJL's "involvement", the easy thing to do would be to keep aggressively going down the PF path, but to what end?

Politigal

01-10-2008, 08:23 PM

but her possible involvement is not some far-fetched gut feeling -- it seems to be the most common sense scenario given the evidence we do know. and it happens to lots of other 'soulmates' on a daily basis....

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Yanno...I'm not here to argue with you . I have my views on this case...you obviously have yours. You amaze me at times...after two + years you still don't get the picture. Everyone here is fighting for the TRUTH for YOUR family ..and you choose to fight the only people who seem to care...I just will never understand.
And most of us have our own battles to fight..and I am pretty sure i haven't seen you jump in to fight them for us...**shrugs**

D2D, you and a few others here only want to look at what you, collectively[i], want to have happened. When evidence comes up that doesn't support that, you forget that, like forgetting that the police did search the house (and that is you, individually, just a few hours ago).

Now, you are entitled your opinion, but the rest of us are free to evaluate that opinion, and comment on it. TG frankly makes a heck of a lot more sense than you do.

Politigal

01-10-2008, 08:25 PM

ps....

did you ever find out if pf checked to see if he was at the courthouse that evening, or did she call his best friend sloane ?

day2day

01-10-2008, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

. TG frankly makes a heck of a lot more sense than you do. [/*]

Talkin about makin sense...read your post to Cind...Mister -you make NO sense...!!!

Here I will even help ya out...

Cind says..
Originally posted by Cinderella

If someone did that she might accused them of "STALKING" like she tried to accuse me of. [/*]

JJ REPLIES[/*]

... or, they simply shared an account.[/*]

I'm just sayin...:santa:

day2day

01-10-2008, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

D2D, you and a few others here only want to look at what you, collectively[i], want to have happened. When evidence comes up that doesn't support that, you forget that, like forgetting that the police did search the house (and that is you, individually, just a few hours ago).

Now, you are entitled your opinion, but the rest of us are free to evaluate that opinion, and comment on it. TG frankly makes a heck of a lot more sense than you do. [/*]

I have yet to see enough evidence to clear anyone of anything in this case....

tonyGricar

01-10-2008, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by day2day
you amaze me at times...after two + years you still don't get the picture. Everyone here is fighting for the TRUTH for YOUR family ..and you choose to fight the only people who seem to care...I just will never understand.
And most of us have our own battles to fight..and I am pretty sure i haven't seen you jump in to fight them for us...**shrugs**
[/*]No, actually the amazing part is that you all (collectively) can say what you want without recourse, but I am not afforded the same. I call it tragic irony. You said PF never searched for Ray. That was factually incorrect, but your response is "I'm not here to argue with you.", not, "My apologies to Patty for such an incorrect statement that attempts to paint a different picture of her than who she is.". Amazing it is.

"And most of us have our own battles to fight..and I am pretty sure i haven't seen you jump in to fight them for us"

Care to clarify that one? If I follow you correctly, I'd say you said that without much actual thought. That's a tragedy in itself.

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Talkin about makin sense...read your post to Cind...Mister -you make NO sense...!!!

Here I will even help ya out...

Cind says..
Originally posted by Cinderella

If someone did that she might accused them of "STALKING" like she tried to accuse me of. [/*]

JJ REPLIES[/*]

... or, they simply shared an account.[/*]

I'm just sayin...:santa: [/*]

I'm sorry if you don't understand that couples do have a single e-mail account. I can think of 3-5 off the top of my head.

day2day

01-10-2008, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
No, actually the amazing part is that you all (collectively) can say what you want without recourse, but I am not afforded the same. I call it tragic irony. You said PF never searched for Ray. That was factually incorrect, but your response is "I'm not here to argue with you.", not, "My apologies to Patty for such an incorrect statement that attempts to paint a different picture of her than who she is.". Amazing it is.

"And most of us have our own battles to fight..and I am pretty sure i haven't seen you jump in to fight them for us"

Care to clarify that one? If I follow you correctly, I'd say you said that without much actual thought. That's a tragedy in itself. [/*]

Welcome to CTV against D2D day.....nice to know you could make it! :D

You of all people here should know if i even THINK i have said or done somethin wrong-i will be the FIRST to apologize. I will not apologize to PF ...

I am pretty sure I am not the only person who finds it strange that PF was never photographed searching... heck i have never read anything in the newspapers about what she IS doing . Does that alone make her guilty of anything? NO. I never said it did. I just think it is strange. Period.
I have said this many times ~will repeat it again. IF my ex (who i loathe) vanished tonight, I would be the FIRST person out searching for his sorry arse..

And i think we all say things without actually thinking. And yep i agree -it is tragic.

day2day

01-10-2008, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I'm sorry if you don't understand that couples do have a single e-mail account. I can think of 3-5 off the top of my head. [/*]

JJ ..
Cind was talkin about STALKIN-what the heck does that have to do with a freakin email account?!...

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
<Snip>
Now, gut instinct, by not knowing any of the players, is not evidence. If you were to show evidence beyond gut, I'd be the first person all over it, as I have been with various tips sent in. Until that point, the pounding of someone who, presumed innocent, has lost a loved one seems to lack a modicum of human decency. For me, like BJL's "involvement", the easy thing to do would be to keep aggressively going down the PF path, but to what end? [/*]MOO - The ghost of posters past still looms large here...and elsewhere. "I have no ultimate answers to provide. My own observations and questions have no more importance than those of my fellow citizens." But there is this 'paramour'. So, let us join hands and try to browbeat her into admission. It is, after all, far easier than considering the alternatives.

Politigal

01-10-2008, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - The ghost of posters past still looms large here...and elsewhere. "I have no ultimate answers to provide. My own observations and questions have no more importance than those of my fellow citizens." But there is this 'paramour'. So, let us join hands and try to browbeat her into admission. It is, after all, far easier than considering the alternatives. [/*]

that's not the way it is......

i'm not trying to browbeat the paramour .....and, i HAVE considered many alternatives. the alternatives just don't fit the story. the paramour does.

imo

day2day

01-10-2008, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - The ghost of posters past still looms large here...and elsewhere. "I have no ultimate answers to provide. My own observations and questions have no more importance than those of my fellow citizens." But there is this 'paramour'. So, let us join hands and try to browbeat her into admission. It is, after all, far easier than considering the alternatives. [/*]

oh right..back to the poor poor Patty defense. IT amazes me that the only people who don't "buy" the poor poor patty defense are most of the women here.

Crocodile tears+ no action=BS in my book...

JMO

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by day2day

JJ ..
Cind was talkin about STALKIN-what the heck does that have to do with a freakin email account?!... [/*]

This is in the context of what PEF was doing, and she checked the e-mail account.

Politigal

01-10-2008, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by day2day

IT amazes me that the only people who don't "buy" the poor poor patty defense are most of the women here.

snipped

JMO [/*]

i recently contacted denny nau who forwarded it to investigators,,,,with the suggestion that they get some female investigators on this case pronto...

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by day2day

oh right..back to the poor poor Patty defense. IT amazes me that the only people who don't "buy" the poor poor patty defense are most of the women here.

Crocodile tears+ no action=BS in my book...

JMO [/*]May I take it that you will not be voting for Hillary then? Of all the posters who have expressed their "hinky" feelings about PF, I give you the most slack, day. Men questioning a woman's intuition? I will not go there. Just give us all something factual and specific to this case.

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by day2day

oh right..back to the poor poor Patty defense. IT amazes me that the only people who don't "buy" the poor poor patty defense are most of the women here.

Crocodile tears+ no action=BS in my book...

JMO [/*]

The only "BS" are the numerous attemps at contortion to involve PEF in a murder.

I don't deal in tears or "women's intuition" claims, since SJ is a woman and don't resort to that. I look at evidence. Could PEF, or anyone else, have driven the Mini to Lewisburg. No. Should a missing person's SO go traipsing across several score, if not hundreds, of square miles at night in a vain hope of finding him? No. Should PEF have suddenly remembered that the as an unused computer upstairs and run up to check it? No.

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 09:35 PM

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Of all the posters who have expressed their "hinky" feelings about PF, I give you the most slack, day. Men questioning a woman's intuition? I will not go there.

Day's woman's intuition is great, so great that she didn't realize SJ was female.

:rolleyes:

Politigal

01-10-2008, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Denny Nau is a limp noodle. MOO [/*]

that may be - but he said he sent it to them....

and at least he responds to the public - unlike mm and others

day2day

01-10-2008, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
May I take it that you will not be voting for Hillary then? Of all the posters who have expressed their "hinky" feelings about PF, I give you the most slack, day. Men questioning a woman's intuition? I will not go there. Just give us all something factual and specific to this case. [/*]

S1 you must be psychic! You are dead on..i will NOT be voting for Hillary. Her crocodile tears don't bother me-it was her "stand by your man" that did me in ...but thats just me (sorry to go ot)

I think we all know by now that there just ISN'T anything that we can get our hands on that "proves" anyone did anything...
But you know as well as i do we have researched many scenarios here..(besides my UFO theory)

IMO though a polygraph doesn't clear her.

day2day

01-10-2008, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Day's woman's intuition is great, so great that she didn't realize SJ was female.

:rolleyes: [/*]

I know SJ is female..JJ. IF you COULD freakin READ i didnt say ALL the women here now did i?

You have a reading and comprehension problem..YOU still havent told us what an email account has to do with STALKING!

Don't worry..we will wait..we have plenty of time :rolleyes:

day2day

01-10-2008, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

i recently contacted denny nau who forwarded it to investigators,,,,with the suggestion that they get some female investigators on this case pronto... [/*]

Thank you pgal! Thank you very much. You know maybe just maybe if they had a woman investigator on this case..we would have a solution to this case by now.

Job well done~!

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by day2day

S1 you must be psychic! You are dead on..i will NOT be voting for Hillary. Her crocodile tears don't bother me-it was her "stand by your man" that did me in ...but thats just me (sorry to go ot)

I think we all know by now that there just ISN'T anything that we can get our hands on that "proves" anyone did anything...
But you know as well as i do we have researched many scenarios here..(besides my UFO theory)

IMO though a polygraph doesn't clear her. [/*]An interesting, pre-polygraph post by, none other than, billywahoo: "the problem are those two little things known as "probable cause" and "individual rights". this leans toward the poly issue. if pf took one and didn't do well or did not pass, so far it looks like it would come down to her admitting something as there is no physical evidence, only 2 pieces of vey loose circumstantial evidence" [the laptop and the ashes]. But we are told she did pass the polygraph. Does that mean she can never be regarded as a suspect? No, but it would take something which, to date, is apparently not evident. MOO

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by day2day

I know SJ is female..JJ. IF you COULD freakin READ i didnt say ALL the women here now did i?

You have a reading and comprehension problem..YOU still havent told us what an email account has to do with STALKING!

Don't worry..we will wait..we have plenty of time :rolleyes: [/*]

Day, you claimed that "most" of the women here suspect PEF, as far as I know, it has consistently been three. you, from the start, without evidence (and I think that you were asking the right questions at the time), UTR, and "GStickley." Even P'gal has NOT consistently thought that; Cind has not.

We basically have had three posters currently that say that, one (JKA's doppleganger), that has said that.

If you look at my posts carefully, you will see that have had two firm beliefs about this case.

1. That RFG drove the Mini to Lewisburg.

2. That he was there sometime in the afternoon on 4/15/05.

Those are both based on evidence and witnesses. The Patty Basher theories all say, pretty much that we shouldn't believe the witnesses and that we should ignore the evidence. Sorry, but you couldn't even be seated on a jury with an attitude like that.

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Thank you pgal! Thank you very much. You know maybe just maybe if they had a woman investigator on this case..we would have a solution to this case by now.

Job well done~! [/*]And here, all this time, I thought DZ exhibited his "feminine" side! Shows you what I know. MOO

day2day

01-10-2008, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
An interesting, pre-polygraph post by, none other than, billywahoo: "the problem are those two little things known as "probable cause" and "individual rights". this leans toward the poly issue. if pf took one and didn't do well or did not pass, so far it looks like it would come down to her admitting something as there is no physical evidence, only 2 pieces of vey loose circumstantial evidence" [the laptop and the ashes]. But we are told she did pass the polygraph. Does that mean she can never be regarded as a suspect? No, but it would take something which, to date, is apparently not evident. MOO [/*]

You are right S1. That sounds just like bw ..:)!! And we have been told that PF passed the polygraph. It is what we haven't been told that bothers me.

As far as i believe Mr. Gricar walked out of that courthouse on 4/14/2005 and simply vanished into thin air. And that breaks my heart.

day2day

01-10-2008, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
And here, all this time, I thought DZ exhibited his "feminine" side! Shows you what I know. MOO [/*]

Oh S1 you are bad..VERY bad! DZ spent all of HIS time with CB.
He didn't organize searches ..he didn't interview family, friends-co-workers..i will never ever understand!!

jmo --yanno

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by day2day

You are right S1. That sounds just like bw ..:)!! And we have been told that PF passed the polygraph. It is what we haven't been told that bothers me. As far as i believe Mr. Gricar walked out of that courthouse on 4/14/2005 and simply vanished into thin air. And that breaks my heart. [/*]Understood...completely. But I am not persuaded that the Ray Gricar who disappeared was necessarily the Ray Gricar who everyone knew.

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Oh S1 you are bad..VERY bad! DZ spent all of HIS time with CB.
He didn't organize searches ..he didn't interview family, friends-co-workers..i will never ever understand!!

jmo --yanno [/*]OK. Snarky1 stands in the corner...back turned toward Revelation Range, as usual.

Cinderella

01-10-2008, 11:22 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

SNIP
--------------------------------
Day, you claimed that "most" of the women here suspect PEF, as far as I know, it has consistently been three. you, from the start, without evidence (and I think that you were asking the right questions at the time), UTR, and "GStickley." Even P'gal has NOT consistently thought that; Cind has not.

SNIP
--------------------------------

J. J. I only said that because I think that Ray is alive and out there. If he is not then P.F. would be one of the first people on my list.

I think that this has been a hoax from day 1. I think that some of the family members also know this. I hope that they do not know because if they know and are coming on here to keep the "Big Secret" up then I have no kind words for them. As for Tony going out of the Country, I would like to know where. Maybe he needs to be followed.

day2day

01-10-2008, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Understood...completely. But I am not persuaded that the Ray Gricar who disappeared was necessarily the Ray Gricar who everyone knew. [/*]

Very good point S1. That is something that has not been discussed enough either , imo.

day2day

01-10-2008, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
OK. Snarky1 stands in the corner...back turned toward Revelation Range, as usual. [/*]

I love it!! ...:lol: ...thinks you will be there for a LONG long time!!

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
<Snip>
As for Tony going out of the Country, I would like to know where. Maybe he needs to be followed. [/*]Jeez Louise. All I wanted to know was how his game was. OK, maybe we should check his bar bill...just in case!

day2day

01-10-2008, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Day, you claimed that "most" of the women here suspect PEF, as far as I know, it has consistently been three. you, from the start, without evidence (and I think that you were asking the right questions at the time), UTR, and "GStickley." Even P'gal has NOT consistently thought that; Cind has not.

We basically have had three posters currently that say that, one (JKA's doppleganger), that has said that.

If you look at my posts carefully, you will see that have had two firm beliefs about this case.

1. That RFG drove the Mini to Lewisburg.

2. That he was there sometime in the afternoon on 4/15/05.

Those are both based on evidence and witnesses. The Patty Basher theories all say, pretty much that we shouldn't believe the witnesses and that we should ignore the evidence. Sorry, but you couldn't even be seated on a jury with an attitude like that. [/*]

J.J ....we can't even place Mr. Gricar in his HOME let alone in that mini cooper on 4/15. That is what really bothers me. NOONE saw him on the evening on 4/14 ..noone saw him on the mornin of 4/15 ..with the exception of...(here we go again)

And you don't believe KA who was open and honest about Mr. Gricar..
As for sitting on a jury -i have been a jury foreperson a FEW times...i would excuse myself if i was called for THIS case..

jmo:D

Cinderella

01-10-2008, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I gave you that descriptor, not her. [/*]

You accused me of "Stalking" but not SJ. She is the one that had me turn around and go by PF so that we could talk to her. I guess if you feel that I was stalking then SJ all the more for having me turn around.

Another thing that I don't understand about you is that you get very rude and nasty with posters that are trying to help find Ray. I would think that you might be a little more appreciative of that fact.

BTW, can't PF speak for herself. She didn't have any trouble the day that we saw her. I say it is one thing to speak up for Ray as he isn't here, but I don't think that you need to speak up for PF. She is capable of that herself. I am talking about the "Stalking" issue.

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by day2day

I love it!! ...:lol: ...thinks you will be there for a LONG long time!! [/*]Oooo! KA is in front of me. Don't make me stand here...pretty please!

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

You accused me of "Stalking" but not SJ. She is the one that had me turn around and go by PF so that we could talk to her. I guess if you feel that I was stalking then SJ all the more for having me turn around.

Another thing that I don't understand about you is that you get very rude and nasty with posters that are trying to help find Ray. I would think that you might be a little more appreciative of that fact. [/*]SJ...you are so nasty! Why did you do that? LOL

Cinderella

01-10-2008, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Jeez Louise. All I wanted to know was how his game was. OK, maybe we should check his bar bill...just in case! [/*]

I would say that his bar bill and everything else be checked out. He might have bought a grey goose martini.

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

I would say that his bar bill and everything else be checked out. He might have bought a grey goose martini. [/*]I was wondering how many Yuenglings can be slipped onto an airplane.

Cinderella

01-10-2008, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
SJ...you are so nasty! Why did you do that? LOL [/*]

No SJ can do no wrong. I was labeled the bad one. If I was all over PF like ........ I wouldn't be able to do no wrong either.

Cinderella

01-10-2008, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I was wondering how many Yuenglings can be slipped onto an airplane. [/*]

I don't know and I don't know what a grey goose martini tastes like, but tonight if I was at the Gamble Mill, I might get loaded and I don't even drink.

S1, right on, that would be another clue. How many did TG take with him? Wonder if they x-rayed his luggage?

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

SNIP
--------------------------------
Day, you claimed that "most" of the women here suspect PEF, as far as I know, it has consistently been three. you, from the start, without evidence (and I think that you were asking the right questions at the time), UTR, and "GStickley." Even P'gal has NOT consistently thought that; Cind has not.

SNIP
--------------------------------

J. J. I only said that because I think that Ray is alive and out there. If he is not then P.F. would be one of the first people on my list.

I think that this has been a hoax from day 1. I think that some of the family members also know this. I hope that they do not know because if they know and are coming on here to keep the "Big Secret" up then I have no kind words for them. As for Tony going out of the Country, I would like to know where. Maybe he needs to be followed. [/*]

Cind, my point is that you have considered other options. This is from a person that does NOT have a firm opinion on what happened.

Tony would be far down on my list of suspected "helpers."

I basically discount PEF as a murderess because of the evidence. Prior to that evidence, she was much higher on the list.

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

I don't know and I don't know what a grey goose martini tastes like, but tonight if I was at the Gamble Mill, I might get loaded and I don't even drink.

S1, right on, that would be another clue. How many did TG take with him? Wonder if they x-rayed his luggage? [/*]Candy is Dandy but Liquor is Quicker.

day2day

01-10-2008, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Oooo! KA is in front of me. Don't make me stand here...pretty please! [/*]

Ohhh lol...in that case it is goin to be a VERY long night!! By the time you get outta that corner you might have a new view on this case...:D

Cinderella

01-10-2008, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I was wondering how many Yuenglings can be slipped onto an airplane. [/*]

So you don't believe that TG took any Yuenglings on the plane with him. Seems awfully weird he is always going out of the country, did you ever stop to think J. J. that maybe that is Ray's only way of getting Yuenglings?

J. J. in Phila

01-10-2008, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by day2day

J.J ....we can't even place Mr. Gricar in his HOME let alone in that mini cooper on 4/15. That is what really bothers me. NOONE saw him on the evening on 4/14 ..noone saw him on the mornin of 4/15 ..with the exception of...(here we go again)

Wrong. We have at least seven witnesses who saw him after that, just in the area where the car was found. We have possibly two that place him back in Bellefonte.

This is what I mean by ignoring witness reports. Whe have nine witness that say they saw, or possibly saw RFG on or after the afternoon of 4/15.

What to try again? :rolleyes:

And you don't believe KA who was open and honest about Mr. Gricar..
[/*]

That's putting a few words into my mouth that were not there. I seriously doubt if everyone has revealed everything that they know. I do question JKA's admittedly spotty memory. I also question her motives and her judgment. I don't recall saying that I thought she lied in something she wrote.

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Ohhh lol...in that case it is goin to be a VERY long night!! By the time you get outta that corner you might have a new view on this case...:D [/*]The "view" is not that pretty! Help me...please! I am out of Yuengling. Have a heart. Oh, the humanity!

Cinderella

01-10-2008, 11:57 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Understood...completely. But I am not persuaded that the Ray Gricar who disappeared was necessarily the Ray Gricar who everyone knew. [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

S1, I have to totally agree with you on that one. I imagine that Ray had to always put on the image of what a DA is supposed to be. I think that there was another side, wild, to Ray that people didn't know about. I think that now, he is letting his hair hang down. :beer:

Who would ever think that this conservative DA might go after a biker chic?

day2day

01-10-2008, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
The "view" is not that pretty! Help me...please! I am out of Yuengling. Have a heart. Oh, the humanity! [/*]

**Grabs the Yuengling...*** Hands you some coffee..you really need to stay awake ..and alert in that corner..:D

Serendipitous1

01-10-2008, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Who didn't 'know' him? His daughter? PF? His ex wives? The county voters? His office staff? None or all of them?
What do you think he was hiding? [/*]None of them...perhaps. Forget the "poison" of past posters. Think for yourself. MO

Cinderella

01-11-2008, 12:03 AM

Hey J. J., Ray didn't need to get a car, a biker chic could have stopped and picked him up. :D

And to think that Det. Z might have thought that Ray had a wild weekend. I think that Det. Z might have known him a little more than we did.

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
None of them...perhaps. Forget the "poison" of past posters. Think for yourself. MO [/*]

Brilliant!!!!

OH, and D2D, search under my name, and look for the word "honorable." See who I was referring to.

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by day2day

**Grabs the Yuengling...*** Hands you some coffee..you really need to stay awake ..and alert in that corner..:D [/*]Mama don't 'low no guitar playing in here.
Mama don't 'low no guitar playing in here.
Well, I don't care what mama don't 'low.
Gonna play that guitar anyhow.
Mama don't 'low no guitar playing in here.

Politigal

01-11-2008, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
And here, all this time, I thought DZ exhibited his "feminine" side! Shows you what I know. MOO [/*]

i've always been curious...

it was reported that zaccagni contacted detective sprinkle of ferguson township to get baron on the case.

i wonder if zaccagni and sprinkle were friends?

day2day

01-11-2008, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Mama don't 'low no guitar playing in here.
Mama don't 'low no guitar playing in here.
Well, I don't care what mama don't 'low.
Gonna play that guitar anyhow.
Mama don't 'low no guitar playing in here. [/*]

ohmylord...:santa:

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by day2day

ohmylord...:santa: [/*]Right on...mama!

Cinderella

01-11-2008, 12:18 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by logicworks

I personally think the answer is simpler than 'it was protocol'.
IMO, it was all about timing.
Calling in at 11:30 PM means LE wouldn't begin to search until daylight.

SNIP
______________

Did you ever stop to think that she called at the certain time when she knew who would be on duty????? What times do the shifts change?

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 12:21 AM

If only some could get their heads out of KA's butt, their could be a whole different picture of the world. MOO

Cinderella

01-11-2008, 12:23 AM

If only some could get their heads out of PF's butt, their could be a whole different picture of the world. MOO

sherrijean981

01-11-2008, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by day2day

I have followed MANY missing persons cases and usually the person closest to the missing person leads the search party.
JMO... [/*]

I have never heard that one!

Politigal

01-11-2008, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
If only some could get their heads out of KA's butt, their could be a whole different picture of the world. MOO [/*]

why are you so anti-Arnold?

I get the feeling it's personal...

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I personally think the answer is simpler than 'it was protocol'.
IMO, it was all about timing.
Calling in at 11:30 PM means LE wouldn't begin to search until daylight.

The APB was issued at that point which would mean LE was looking for the car, if not formally searching.

Riding from Bellefonte down Route 192 would lead to ------------Lewisburg. Leading to Lewisburg would automatically lead to the familiar antiquing 'haunt'-------SOS. (Wouldn't one be likely to first go to any familiar places? IMO, yes).

No, since it wasn't a "haunt." He would go there, when looking for antiques, as he could at numerous closer ones from where the call was made. Remember, it was actually closer to Lock Haven, in terms of drive time.

IMO, she couldn't be the one to find the car.

It would if she drove all the way to Lewisburg, because he never said that was where he was going. Your logic has farrrrrrr too many gaps in it.

TG also mentioned a restaurant across the Susquehanna that RFG liked; why did she suggest that. She knew he wasn't home for supper and assumed he had eaten, but of course that wasn't mentioned. The Mini must have been at the restaraunt according to your theory.

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
If only some could get their heads out of PF's butt, their could be a whole different picture of the world. MOO [/*]That too. How unexpectedly perceptive of you.

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I think for myself, thank you, and always have. Your perception of 'poison' is your lie, so tell it any way you want to.

If you understood anything at all about what I think, you would know beyond a shadow of a doubt how totally ludicrous what you propose is.
Obviously you have missed a major point.
JMO [/*]And, I trust, you will now enlighten all of us with your "truth". I await.

sherrijean981

01-11-2008, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I'm sorry if you don't understand that couples do have a single e-mail account. I can think of 3-5 off the top of my head. [/*]

JJ, she was commenting on you putting your response on a posting that Cindi was making to something I said.

As a matter of fact, our phone, internet service is in my husbands name but the email is in my name and the only one we use.

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I have never heard that one! [/*]

I now have a mental image of Peterson (either one) out leading the "search" for their missing wife (either one). :D

day2day

01-11-2008, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I personally think the answer is simpler than 'it was protocol'.
IMO, it was all about timing.
Calling in at 11:30 PM means LE wouldn't begin to search until daylight.

Riding from Bellefonte down Route 192 would lead to ------------Lewisburg. Leading to Lewisburg would automatically lead to the familiar antiquing 'haunt'-------SOS. (Wouldn't one be likely to first go to any familiar places? IMO, yes).

IMO, she couldn't be the one to find the car. It would have looked toooooo suspicious. Better to save the phone calls and the need to be 'tied up' explaining to family for Saturday thus alloting time for LE to find the car on their own.

I continue to believe the reason she never mentioned their frequenting the SOS in Lewisburg, is because it would have looked toooooooo suspicious, her basically directing them to where the car was was too risky.
JMO [/*]

Protocol~they don't even take a missing persons case for 24 hours. YET ..she called anyway..and it STILL took them ~how many hours to find that car? ..And it probably would NOT have been found then if not for some hungry PSPers ...***SIGHS***

I agree LW. Enough of the story belongs to PF. She couldn't find the car ..that would have been a little TOO obvious. Or mention the antique store...

And if my Daddy went missin and it took his SO til the next day to call me...i would have been FURIOUS!!

Another great post, LW. Thank you !!

day2day

01-11-2008, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I now have a mental image of Peterson (either one) out leading the "search" for their missing wife (either one). :D [/*]

Good. They didn't ...and we KNOW where SP is. And DP will not be too far behind HIM. ..MO

Im sure you remember SP crocodile tears..SO similar to PF's..

day2day

01-11-2008, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I have never heard that one! [/*]

You never saw Mark Lunsford..Steve Groene...?!?~
Mark Lunsford searched for his baby until they found her across the street. Obviously LE forgot to tell HIM to sit by the phone and wait for someone to call...*sighs..
Stacey Peterson's family (except her loving husband) searched daily in the beginning also. Obviously they missed the memo from LE.

jmo

sherrijean981

01-11-2008, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

i recently contacted denny nau who forwarded it to investigators,,,,with the suggestion that they get some female investigators on this case pronto... [/*]

Do you think by getting a woman on the case PF will be arrested ASAP? Come on, Pgal, the women LE officer's look at the situation the same way a man officer would. And how do you know there weren't female PA State Police Officers at that big secret meeting? Very possible.

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 12:54 AM

Interesting. The PSP at Milton (Montandon):
- found the car
- processed the car...the fingerprints, etc.
- interviewed RG's family and friends
- collected the laptop
- processed the laptop
- collected the hard drive
- pocessed (initially) the hard drive
Interesting that the AG appears to have refused to take the case...meaning, if he had, the PSP would have become the investigator.
Very interesting. All JMOO

day2day

01-11-2008, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Interesting. The PSP at Milton (Montandon):
- found the car
- processed the car...the fingerprints, etc.
- interviewed RG's family and friends
- collected the laptop
- processed the laptop
- collected the hard drive
- pocessed (initially) the hard drive
Interesting that the AG appears to have refused to take the case...meaning, if he had, the PSP would have become the investigator.
Very interesting. All JMOO [/*]

Can you tell me which family, friends and co-workers were interviewed?

sherrijean981

01-11-2008, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
SJ...you are so nasty! Why did you do that? LOL [/*]

I twisted her arm and took over the wheel I guess. :D

sherrijean981

01-11-2008, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

No SJ can do no wrong. I was labeled the bad one. If I was all over PF like ........ I wouldn't be able to do no wrong either. [/*]

Get over it Cindi!

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Can you tell me which family, friends and co-workers were interviewed? [/*]All...but that is only my belief, because I trust no family, friend or co-worker would ever leave Ray Gricar hang in the wind...and because we, the public, would not necessarily be apprised of that. Bottom line though...TG would not rest without knowing. MOO

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by day2day

You never saw Mark Lunsford..Steve Groene...?!?~
Mark Lunsford searched for his baby until they found her across the street. Obviously LE forgot to tell HIM to sit by the phone and wait for someone to call...*sighs..
Stacey Peterson's family (except her loving husband) searched daily in the beginning also. Obviously they missed the memo from LE.

jmo [/*]

I'm thinking of the Smart (I think that was it) where the "local" search party destroyed the evidence; the dogs failed.

Oh, I just hear you, **She was out hiding evidence.**

At 11:30 PM on 4/15/05, PEF knew that RFG was on about a 25 mile stretch of highway, twelve hours before. You expect her to immediately think "Street of Shops."

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Absolutely thought that one through.

I would guess the shift is most likely 11PM to 7AM, with DetZ coming on at 7AM.......nothing but a BOLO till then at which time DetZ picked up the ball and ran with it.

Calling the Chief at 11:30PM on a Friday night, what are the chances of an investigation beginning immediately? Probably either already in bed or heading there.

That would depend on what the Chief said. There is absolutely no way that PEF would know the BPD's reaction. I think this was the very first time that a sitting DA was reported missing, probably in the state.

Timing was everything, IMO, including 'Friday night', meaning the County Detective, Thal, was off for the weekend and wouldn't likely be called out either. I would be most curious to know exactly when he was first notified, and asked to appear.

Ah, how does PEF know all this? She never worked for the BPD and any contact she had with them as a probation officer was years before. Crystal ball? Tarot cards?

One would certainly hope he was there for the 'computer in the office' scenario. My guess is........he wasn't, but just a guess, considering it appears little in the way of actual 'protocol' is evident. Doesn't mean we just don't know about it, either.

This was a unique situation; Centre County never lost a public official before. You expect there to be protocol for this?

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
All...but that is only my belief, because I trust no family, friend or co-worker would ever leave Ray Gricar hang in the wind...and because we, the public, would not necessarily be apprised of that. Bottom line though...TG would not rest without knowing. MOO [/*]

Someone in that group (more likely friend or co-worker) may be willing to help RFG leave, and not disclose the fact, or even misdirect everyone away from it.

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by day2day

Can you tell me which family, friends and co-workers were interviewed? [/*]

I wish I could.

sherrijean981

01-11-2008, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I'm thinking of the Smart (I think that was it) where the "local" search party destroyed the evidence; the dogs failed.

Oh, I just hear you, **She was out hiding evidence.**

At 11:30 PM on 4/15/05, PEF knew that RFG was on about a 25 mile stretch of highway, twelve hours before. You expect her to immediately think "Street of Shops." [/*]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't PF call LE earlier and they told her to call back? When she did they put an APB out for him and she was to call back in the am?

If my husband disappeared there would be no certain place to start looking for him. We go to antique shops, flea markets, auto salvage yards, as far away as Hazelton, and to different areas' malls, Harrisburg and Selinsgrove, and places like Lowes, Big Lots and Ollies, in St College, Sunbury, and Harrisburg. And I couldn't even begin to name all the garden centers in the state we have gone to.

I also wouldn't have gotten SOS out of the message "I'm on Rt 192 in Brush Valley." JMO

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't PF call LE earlier and they told her to call back? When she did they put an APB out for him and she was to call back in the am?

I do not recall that; I thought that they called the Chief.

I also wouldn't have gotten SOS out of the message "I'm on Rt 192 in Brush Valley." JMO [/*]

Considering that he was closer to Boalsburg, Lock Haven, and State College than Lewisburg when the call was made, I wouldn't have gotten SOS out of that either. I would think SOS even if RFG said, **I'm going out to look at antiques.**

That even assumes he made the call at the closest point to Lewisburg, Rebersburg.

tonyGricar

01-11-2008, 04:13 AM

Originally posted by day2day
You of all people here should know if i even THINK i have said or done somethin wrong-i will be the FIRST to apologize. I will not apologize to PF ...

I am pretty sure I am not the only person who finds it strange that PF was never photographed searching... heck i have never read anything in the newspapers about what she IS doing . Does that alone make her guilty of anything? NO. I never said it did. I just think it is strange. Period.
I have said this many times ~will repeat it again. IF my ex (who i loathe) vanished tonight, I would be the FIRST person out searching for his sorry arse..

And i think we all say things without actually thinking. And yep i agree -it is tragic. [/*]None of us have ever been photographed searching. Does this mean you don't believe that Lara, Chris, and I also spent many, many days searching the banks, the river itself, and the surrounding woodlands? I guess if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there...

As for your comment that I don't apparently care, or have much interest in, the battles that some of you personally fight, my response was a subtle way of saying that you, of all people, should know that's a flat out false accusation. John Denver, I hope, would tell you otherwise.

tonyGricar

01-11-2008, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
i recently contacted denny nau who forwarded it to investigators,,,,with the suggestion that they get some female investigators on this case pronto... [/*]I've still never met, nor spoken to him. Fwiw, we do however, it seems, own similar cowboy hats.

So, for those keeping score at home: I've never met, nor spoken to, Nau or Arnold.

tonyGricar

01-11-2008, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

that may be - but he said he sent it to them....
[/*]So he essentially forwarded it on to the same people who receive faxed, or emailed or phoned, "tips" from the general public, your BPD.

tonyGricar

01-11-2008, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J. I only said that because I think that Ray is alive and out there. I think that this has been a hoax from day 1. I think that some of the family members also know this.

As for Tony going out of the Country, I would like to know where. Maybe he needs to be followed. [/*]

1. Ray is alive and we know? The wind must be blowing South today, or it's a Friday. I never really know if you change your mind based on the wind, the day, or the new kid on the playground's ideas.

2. You are pathetic. (Save the "She's just trying to help" speech, please. Enough's enough with her libelous BS.) Follow me to the Southern Caribbean and the coast of South America. Go diving with the stingrays. Ask for pics even. Didn't see Ray there, just those of the stinging variety.

I'm surely not the only one who notices that when you get jilted, you flip your "opinions" like a light switch. Stunning that I'd be uncomfortable with you approaching a friend or family member on the street. Stunning...

tonyGricar

01-11-2008, 05:04 AM

Originally posted by day2day

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Understood...completely. But I am not persuaded that the Ray Gricar who disappeared was necessarily the Ray Gricar who everyone knew. [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very good point S1. That is something that has not been discussed enough either , imo. [/*]With suicide or walkaway, you and S1 bring up a very good point. We've broadly touched on this in the past, at least I know I did re: a suicide angle, but it's likely worth a deeper revisit.

I have a friend who is an FBI forensic psychiatrist who I've bounced ideas off before. We can get into that if y'all would like.

tonyGricar

01-11-2008, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Another thing that I don't understand about you is that you get very rude and nasty with posters that are trying to help find Ray. I would think that you might be a little more appreciative of that fact.[/*]Re: being appreciative to posters and taking whatever is dished out to me, I think we've beaten that hypocritical horse.

But if I must, I'm appreciative of the fact that you think Ray is pulling a hoax, that we are aware of it, and that I should be followed whenever I'm on vacation (Some have said I'm on one every day given my location. Could get 'spensive.). As a bonus, I'll send a copy of my bar bill to the one less snarky than I, who inexplicably has the moniker of Snarky1. Snarky2, maybe...

_____________________________
Catharsis Fever: Catch it!

tonyGricar

01-11-2008, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I would say that his bar bill and everything else be checked out. He might have bought a grey goose martini. [/*]Anyone who knows me knows that I only drink gin martinis. Tanqueray No. 10 as a standard pour, although there are some nice, domestic boutiques coming out of late. I prefer the Grey Goose with a splash of fresh OJ or as a Bloody Mary (Clamato, please), fwiw.

P.S.
Shaken. Stirred. Whatever...

tonyGricar

01-11-2008, 05:49 AM

I can't get the image out of my head of myself smuggling Yuengling OUT of the country. Usually I'm simply busy smuggling it INTO Ohio, a contiguous state of PA that doesn't yet have it. Maybe there's your cause for a warrant, Cind: Yuengling Smuggler.

I should add that if I smuggled cases of Yuengling in my already full suitcase, the TSA was nice enough to include a post-inspection note telling me of their intrusion, and apparent theft of my booty as I arrived with no Yuengling to swap for Kalik (not a fair trade for me).

P.S.
Thanks for putting the Yuengling thoughts into her head, S1. You're a peach...

As the wind blows...

day2day

01-11-2008, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
None of us have ever been photographed searching. Does this mean you don't believe that Lara, Chris, and I also spent many, many days searching the banks, the river itself, and the surrounding woodlands? I guess if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there...

As for your comment that I don't apparently care, or have much interest in, the battles that some of you personally fight, my response was a subtle way of saying that you, of all people, should know that's a flat out false accusation. John Denver, I hope, would tell you otherwise. [/*]

First..while i won't apologize to PF for my comment on her apparent "lack of searching"..I will apologize to you....you have gone out of your way to help me..and i appreciate you-i really do!

If there aren't pics or newspaper articles or news reports saying that PF is searching..how would the general public know? And btw..i KNOW that you -lg Chris and even lg's mama have searched!

day2day

01-11-2008, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
With suicide or walkaway, you and S1 bring up a very good point. We've broadly touched on this in the past, at least I know I did re: a suicide angle, but it's likely worth a deeper revisit.

I have a friend who is an FBI forensic psychiatrist who I've bounced ideas off before. We can get into that if y'all would like. [/*]

TG..
I really think this is an angle that should be looked into. I would love to discuss it..anytime :)

day2day

01-11-2008, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I can't get the image out of my head of myself smuggling Yuengling OUT of the country. Usually I'm simply busy smuggling it INTO Ohio, a contiguous state of PA that doesn't yet have it. Maybe there's your cause for a warrant, Cind: Yuengling Smuggler.

I should add that if I smuggled cases of Yuengling in my already full suitcase, the TSA was nice enough to include a post-inspection note telling me of their intrusion, and apparent theft of my booty as I arrived with no Yuengling to swap for Kalik (not a fair trade for me).

P.S.
Thanks for putting the Yuengling thoughts into her head, S1. You're a peach...

As the wind blows... [/*]

Funny funny man. OT i did smuggle pepsi AND bottled water in a suitcase on my 16 day cruise..was NOT caught and saved myself and my littleone 100 bucks..:D

Just call me thrifty!! I'm sure you can hear me squeaking all the way over there...!!

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
With suicide or walkaway, you and S1 bring up a very good point. We've broadly touched on this in the past, at least I know I did re: a suicide angle, but it's likely worth a deeper revisit.

I have a friend who is an FBI forensic psychiatrist who I've bounced ideas off before. We can get into that if y'all would like. [/*]

I think that would be an excellent idea.

The two arguments I have against suicide are based on evidence. In theory, at least, that might be explainable.

sherrijean981

01-11-2008, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I think that would be an excellent idea.

The two arguments I have against suicide are based on evidence. In theory, at least, that might be explainable. [/*]

JJ, this was an interesting article:

SC Boater Stages His Death
http://www.centredaily.com/news/nation/story/326038.html

sherrijean981

01-11-2008, 02:36 PM

It sounds a lot like the duties of an administrative assistant, but I don't see anywhere that would show how to make a man disappear and stay gone for 2.75 months. No courses on how to kill a man.

I think it is stretching it a lot. But if you are going to go there, how many other people in those positions might have taken a dislike to RG? How many people in law enforcement might have had it out for him? How many of the ADA's or Centre County attorney's could have? What about the so called underworld that one of the more recent but not often poster's mentioned in State College, in the back rooms?

JMOO

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

why are you so anti-Arnold? I get the feeling it's personal... [/*]S1 mostly spects she was one to make the Snarkster spill his brew [Part III: D. (1) (*)], with ridiculous insinuations regarding online persona. S1 mighty thankful though in other respect...much easier to "read" cloggers when they wear name tags. JS1'sO (a.k.a. SnarkyII, a.k.a. The Peach...oops!...sorry tG).

Edit: forgot...stand alone "bees" get replaced with an asterisk.

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
With suicide or walkaway, you and S1 bring up a very good point. We've broadly touched on this in the past, at least I know I did re: a suicide angle, but it's likely worth a deeper revisit.

I have a friend who is an FBI forensic psychiatrist who I've bounced ideas off before. We can get into that if y'all would like. [/*]"Y'all" in the sense of unanimity is not likely to happen (I think I heard the gnashing of teeth from some quarters, right through my dial-up connection). But I would like to know what your FBI guy had to say.

J. J. in Phila

01-11-2008, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Why are you so conveniently forgetting about the VA position that she held up until 3.5 months prior to disappearance?
According to the job description, there is constant contact with LE, and actually a great deal of info that would be helpful to know if investigating 'disappearances'.

Scheduling tends to change greatly even over a month, not to mention 3.5 months. The would also be the very real possibility of someone being out sick or on vacation (which we saw at the DA's office). In terms of scheduling, 3.5 months is a very long time.

I worked for a state agency that was opened from 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM, five days a week; I worked 37.5 hours per week. Rarely, if ever, would I be starting and finishing at exactly the same time over any period of over 3.5 months. A police department does things 24/7 and this was the start of the weekend. Z might have been out on a call, even if he was there; someone else could have taken it (I think there is more than one BPD officer on duty at any given time).

More woolly logic.

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
<Snip>
...As a bonus, I'll send a copy of my bar bill to the one less snarky than I, who inexplicably has the moniker of Snarky1. Snarky2, maybe...
_____________________________
Catharsis Fever: Catch it! [/*]The urge to purge? Not a problem for me...go figure. And I reserve my right to challenge for most snarkiest. I may not be the best one to analyze bar bills though. And I see you are SOL on the Yuengling distribution. I think you should file a complaint.
http://www.yuengling.com/distrib.htm

Politigal

01-11-2008, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
S1 mostly spects she was one to make the Snarkster spill his brew [Part III: D. (1) (*)], with ridiculous insinuations regarding online persona. S1 mighty thankful though in other respect...much easier to "read" cloggers when they wear name tags. JS1'sO (a.k.a. SnarkyII, a.k.a. The Peach...oops!...sorry tG).

Edit: forgot...stand alone "bees" get replaced with an asterisk. [/*]

snarky peach sounds like a fuzzy navel.....:D

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

snarky peach sounds like a fuzzy navel.....:D [/*]You read my mind. Hope you can type two-fisted soon!

Politigal

01-11-2008, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
You read my mind. Hope you can type two-fisted soon! [/*]

me too....

and the pain meds aren't doing the trick, so i'm gonna 'borrow' my daughter's jack daniels...

don't tell her....:tongue:

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 08:16 PM

KA is my neighbor to the west. She watched me with inverted binoculars. I did not mind...as long as she interacted here. This is just a message board, not? Oh well. BTW...is there a female equivalent for "limp dick"?

Politigal

01-11-2008, 08:27 PM

:eek:

mrs ***?

:chicken:

Serendipitous1

01-11-2008, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
:eek:

mrs ***? :chicken: [/*]Jilted spinster maybe?. . . .:shrug:

Politigal

01-12-2008, 01:21 AM

tony has previously posted - basically - that reports of rg antiquing are a little overblown.

in reading old news articles again, it appears that asst da mark smith is one that gave the media 'insight' about rg going antiquing.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14386232&BRD=2212&PAG=461&dept_id=465812&rfi=6

Gricar appeared to have been just as reserved outside the courthouse. His interest in antiquing was one of the few insights into the prosecutor's personal life that Mark Smith, an assistant district attorney to Gricar for 20 years, had about his boss.

it's also been prev reported that sloane was a closer friend to rg and in the same link above, smith stated that he really didn't spend much time with gricar outside the office

"Aside from a few Christmas parties and summer picnics, I really didn't spend time with him or his family," said Smith. "He's very passionate about the law and he's a very private person."

it's a little puzzling to me that smith was 'promoting' the antiquing bit.....

:shrug:

Serendipitous1

01-12-2008, 10:05 PM

MOO - It is a given that media news coverage is never wholly satisfactory. There is no legal or ethical requirement to be accurate, thorough, balanced, fair or impartial. The article you cite was written after the abandoned Mini was found, and before the (apparent) séance-like, group counseling session.

Maybe it was a Freudian thing. Maybe MS was trying to mislead. Or (perhaps most likely) maybe he was just struggling, like everyone else, to make some sense of it, and Armas considered it newsworthy...connected by the car location...when it was not really.

I believe TG when he says that reports about RG's antiquing were overblown. And from my own observation, the SoS is no one's destination...not for antiquing anyway.

Politigal

01-12-2008, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

It has been reported he had been down in Tyrone at I-99 Antiques sometime preceding disappearance and then his car was found in a lot associated with 'antiques', so how is it 'overblown'? If that is to say RG had no interest in antiques or visiting places where they are housed, I would think that was an 'understatement'.

I don't recall reading anywhere that MS noted what RG collected, yet I recall the news reporting on what he collected. Surely someone gave them the information as to what kind of antiques he was interested in.

http://www.streetofshops.net/index.asp

JMO [/*]

i read prev that rg collected antique toys and small appliances