What Did Ray Witness?

[Cinderella]

This is a quote taken from J. Karen Arnold's website.

On Monday, April 18, 2005, the DA staff were gathered together for an in-office meeting with a County official. Ray was supposed to testify that morning as a witness on some matter which had come up in a case being handled by the ADA who was assigned to drug cases brought by the Office. There was some anticipation that he might still show up in time to testify at the hearing. We were advised that if he did not appear, the County would be offering group counseling to DA staff employees by a provider firm from Harrisburg.
End
---------------------------------------------------------

I am wondering what Ray a witness to? Did Ray want to testify? Are there many D.A.'s that testify to matters concerning drug cases? Was this supposed to be kept hush, hush? Was this going to be a public hearing or closed hearing. If it was a closed hearing then hardly anyone would know. I would not want to testify at a drug case. I think that it would be very harmful.

Could this be what was bothering Ray? Was he staying away from the Courthouse because he didn't want to testify and also be subpoenaed?

Was this information leaked out? If so, who leaked it. I seems likely that it would have to been someone in the D.A.'s office who leaked it.

Was Ray staying at home? Maybe not, since he might be afraid that his life was in danger and PF's as well. Is that why he met her in the park. In the park, he was out in the open where everyone could see him. I would think that it would be harder for someone to harm him out in the open instead of somewhere else.
Is that what was bothering him. He knew that if he testified that he was a marked man?

Did he maybe hastily put something on his laptop that stated that if he went missing or something happened to him that such and such were involved? If the information that he was to testify was put out there, who gave the information to someone else? Did someone think that he had this information on his laptop?
Did he remove the laptop so that no one might be going to his house to get it and harming PF?

Even though he did not testify, did he go into the witness protection program because sources knew that he was going to testify? It is my belief that D.A. don't really witness these things and have to testify.

This really bothers me and I think that his life was at stake. Is that why even though he knew that he would be on vacation at the time of the Vargas case, that he said that he didn't know if he would still be around. He didn't come out and say to Brown, well this is when I take my vacation. He just said that he didn't know if he would still be around or something to that effect.

Please try to help me on this point. I know that I haven't put the exact quotes as to what Ray said to Judge Brown.

Can someone fill us in on this case?

Isn't if funny that they stated that if Ray did not testify that they would have group counseling. Did they know that Ray was going to testify and if he didn't then something major happened to him. Then the word got out.

Did Ray put the book on Mark Smith's desk just in case that he didn't testify because Ray knew that if he was alive then he could take the book back? Did Ray know that he was a marked man?
Either way, if he testified or not, it is very likely that they would want to take him out due to what he knew.

Also did Ray have this information on his laptop so that he could access all the information that he wanted to say in court?

JMO, MOO

I think that we really need to research this.

Did Taji Verbal Lee know that this happened because someone double crossed Ray and leaked this information. They had Taji Verbal Lee on trial for doing wrong, but did he mean that they lied to people about not knowing what happened to Ray? Does Taji Verbal Lee know what happened to Ray?

[J. J. in Phila]

The case he was arguing on 4/18/05, or suppose to be arguing, was a hit and run. JKA was only person who suggested he'd be a witness in a drug case.

I'm lost on that, but it doesn't appear to be high profile.

[Cinderella]

If it wasn't a drug case then why did she say that it was a drug case?

I don't know anything about the hit and run, only about the young girl who pulled out in front of a motorcycle. I know that there were alot of emotions about this case since the girl was young. Actually I felt that she should have gotten some time out of it, but apparently she didn't.

If it was a hit and run case as you suggest, you mean to tell me that Ray witnessed it? I doubt it.

JMO, MOO

Where did you happen to find this information that it was a hit and run?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
If it wasn't a drug case then why did she say that it was a drug case?

I don't know anything about the hit and run, only about the young girl who pulled out in front of a motorcycle.

I know that there were alot of emotions about this case since the girl was young. Actually I felt that she should have gotten some time out of it, but apparently she didn't.


My bad, it was the motorcycle case; I remembered it was a death involving a motor vehicle. I think it was homicide by vehicle and she was acquitted (though there was a moving violation).

I realized that it was the motorcycle case when I woke up. :)

It's interesting that she said, "...witness on some matter which had come up in a case being handled by the ADA who was assigned to drug cases brought by the Office. " It sounds like he was testifying about something that happened in the courtroom, or in the assignment of the case, not about what a defendant or witness saw.

The only things that I could figure were something relating to evidence, including probable cause (unlikely), or a contempt citation against the ADA. Those are guesses.

[Cinderella]

I would like to see this issue resolved. I don't want to take guesses. Does anyone know anything about what he was to be a witness to? If not, how could we find out? If anyone knows and speaks to JKA, I wish that they would ask her about this.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I would like to see this issue resolved. I don't want to take guesses. Does anyone know anything about what he was to be a witness to? If not, how could we find out? If anyone knows and speaks to JKA, I wish that they would ask her about this. [/*]

I'd like to see it resolved too. You might try PB, but I've never seen any reporting of it.

It could have been in chambers.

[tonyGricar]

This has been covered before, but I'm going to guess and say that it was deleted.

He wasn't witness to any nefarious event that would put his life in danger. There was a possible conflict of interest that had arisen in the case and iirc, Ray was to be present to either testify that there is no conflict and/or to be there as a possible 2nd chair for a portion of the trial due to that possible conflict. I seem to think it was a simple marijuana possession case. Nothing major iirc.

[gstickley]

TG: Can you tell me why you'd want anonymous posters on this message board to contact you with their personal info so you could give it to LE if they ever asked for it?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
TG: Can you tell me why you'd want anonymous posters on this message board to contact you with their personal info so you could give it to LE if they ever asked for it? [/*]

Gee, GS, I guess you don't understand the meaning of the word "volunteer?" :rolleyes:

We just know you wouldn't do it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
This has been covered before, but I'm going to guess and say that it was deleted.

He wasn't witness to any nefarious event that would put his life in danger. There was a possible conflict of interest that had arisen in the case and iirc, Ray was to be present to either testify that there is no conflict and/or to be there as a possible 2nd chair for a portion of the trial due to that possible conflict. I seem to think it was a simple marijuana possession case. Nothing major iirc. [/*]

Okay, this was the first I've ever heard of the reason.

It does make sense.

[Cinderella]

Thanks Tony.

[tiredoftheguff]

I am totally devastated that Tony is leaving the boards! There are some posters who really cross the line and I wish that they had never come here. He is exactly right. Unless you have gone through it...you have no idea how horrible it is.
My exhusbands entire aorta dissected for the second time 10 days ago. His right kidney has died. He has blood clots in his lungs. Two years ago on the night when hurricane Katrina hit he spent 14 hours in surgery having his dissected aorta repaired. When they filled his body back up with blood hundreds of blood clots went to his brain. It has been a very difficult journey to the say the least.
Every day I come home from the hospital hoping that their will be some good and accurate news about Ray. All I read is ...mostly crap and innuendo....and bickering. Some posters seem to know it all! So I guess the rest of us need not be here. UTR I would not accept your apology for accusing me of being a liar if you handed it to me on a silver platter. You are a fool.
If my son were here now on this his 28th birthday he would say Mom....why are you wasting your time? Life is short. Don't let people get under your skin. Do what is most important for those who are the most important.
Politigal you have spewed more negativity onto this board than I can even fathom. We were better off without you. Your little fits of erase what I posted were utterly ridiculous and hopefully totally embarassing for you. I hope some day you change. For the pain that you cause is unbelievable. You are not trying to help. Words are like toothpaste...once they come out you can not put them back in again.
I will pray for all of you. Just like Tony I have had enough. Good bye and good night. I will not ever read these boards again.

[Cinderella]

TOTG,

I am very saddened to hear that you won't be posting on the boards anymore. If eveyrone is leaving, where does that leave Ray?

I have always thought that your posts were terrific. I looked forward to them and also pming you. I wish eveyrone that is leaving would consider staying. There are a lot of tensions and emotions of this case. I am glad that I know to know you. I am saddened about your ex-husband.

I love to hear about your love of shopping. We have always agreed about 1 person who needs to be put away form life.

Sometimes you just have to ignore or put certain people on ignore. I have never questioned anything that you have said to me because I have always believed you to be trust worthy and truthful. Please Stay.

Cind.

[J. J. in Phila]

TOTG, I would hope that you would stay. I understand why you would want to leave, however, considering what has gone on with a few posters.

I, had a death in my family recently, so I hope your ex-husband will recover.

PS: I now have one poster on my ignore list.

[day2day]

TOTG..
I hate to hear that you are also leaving. I for one will never allow anyone to make me stop posting. We ALL have something to add here. I think sometimes we forget this is not "OUR" board..this is Mr. Gricar's..and right now he needs ALL the help he can get.

I will say a prayer for your ex-hubby.

:rose:

[slaphappy]

tiredofthegruff,

I also want you to stay. I'm a newbie here (as far being a poster) Ray needs you on board. There just isn't enough people taking up Ray's cause. Most people I have talked to around my area don't even remember Ray vanishing. They just give me quizzical looks. Honestly, when it first happened, Ray was talked about....maybe for the first month or so. Then nothing, because alot of the media kept throwing the walk-a-way or suicide theory out to the public. Interest soon dwindled. "Why care if a grown man wants to kill himself or walk-a-way?" He needs us!


I'm not sure what the dynamics of some of the posters relationships are, but I assure you that I am not here to argue or to cause trouble. Just as surely, some posters are here because they care about Ray. You might be the one voice, the one theory yet to come that may solve this. What if you are?

[slaphappy]

:shrug: It's hard to tell if Ray saw something, heard something, or suspected something. Tony cleared up the last possible theory (the marijuana case). Doesn't mean though there wasn't something else. ( Although this has NO BEARING on Ray's case; Jonathon Luna comes to my mind .... Is the FBI still pushing for suicide on that one? He was murdered for a reason. 36 stab wounds! Why on earth is the FBI trying to get a suicde label on that one?)

I know that Tony said that some of these theories hurt family members and are hard to read. Some are so outlandish, they are laughable (including mine) But something happened to Ray Gricar. Not sure about the rest of you, so can't speak for you, but I am just a lady sitting comfortably at my desk. None of my family members have vanished (except for my brother last year for about 30 hrs, it was very emotional and scary. But we had resolution) None of my family members have ever walked-a-way. None have committed suicide. I cannot honestly put myself in Ray Gricar's family's shoes. The not knowing has to be the most awful feeling in the world. So I hope that Ray's family can see that, though some of these theories are hard to stomach, most of us do care, and are trying to help find a resolution for their sad mystery.

[Cinderella]

For some reason, I believe the answer has to be in what he was going to testify about. I still would like to really know about this.

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by Cinderella
For some reason, I believe the answer has to be in what he was going to testify about. I still would like to really know about this. [/*]


Cinderella,

Do you think it's possible that the laptop was just a red herring? In your mind is there a chance that the mini cooper was parked by the SOS by someone other than Ray? The phone being turned off could have just been Ray not wanting to be disturbed. It also could have been turned off by the person who parked the car. Afterall he (the man who parked the mini cooper) couldn't answer it if it rang anyway. By placing some of Ray Gricar's items at the SOS, it made it look like he had been there.


I'm so afraid that something horrible happened and whoever did it made sure that Ray would never be found. There are still some very evil and POWERFUL criminals with CONNECTIONS . Just wanted to know your opinion. Thanks:seeya:

[Cinderella]

I believe someone other than Ray could have driven the car to the SOS. I think that they would have to have knowledge that Ray went there from time to time. Ray could have also driven the Mini there. To me the SOS is in a somewhat secluded place, but still some people could witness something. If Ray was meeting someone maybe he wanted to go to the SOS for that reason. Maybe he thought that he would be safe.

I feel that this case deals with either Ray disappearing by his own free will, witness protection program, or someone that knew very many details about Ray's life. Like where he frequented, that his brother committed suicide by drowning, that his brother went to a place with water, etc.

I thought that Ray or his office was receiving threats before he disappeared.

I don't buy %100 into the people who saw him in Lewisburg. Why didn't anyone see him park his car? Why didn't anyone see him get out of his car? Why didn't the dogs track him to the SOS or the park.

If Ray did drive the mini there, I think that Ray was meeting someone, but I don't think that he felt that secure with meeting that person.

I would like to know some true answers such as did Ray really go to Huntingdon the day before, and if so what was he doing. You would think that between going to Huntingdon and back to Bellefonte and then to the SOS that the car would need gas. Did Ray usually get gas at a special place? When was the last time that he got gas. If I am correct, Sheetz and Uni-marts have surveillance camera's, at least I think they do. I also feel that if LE would release a little more information that this case might be solved.

I also know that PF told different stories about the am or the paper misquoted her. I have yet to find out what was true that morning. I can understand in a way of no one seeing him that Thursday evening, but since he didn't personally e-mail his staff, one wonders if he did go home Thursday night.

I also wish that LE would question JL's alibi. As I heard that a person lied for him and told him that he would not lie again. I think that someone stated that JL gave BJL an alibi. They may have been together and with Ray.

Just my feelings.

[nappy]

I just found the Ray Gricar thread a few days ago and skimmed some of the posts when I came across this post.

I believe there are powerful people whether it be mafia or other people that have the connections to do such a crime and to execute it so perfectly. I think RG was a big threat to whoever done this and these people felt he needed to be take out of the equation.I also believe the laptop was just a non important object thrown in that area just so the search would stay in that area and that is also why the car was also parked there .

I also believe RG did not drive the car there he was probably already taken care of before the car even arrived at the sos .

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by nappy
I just found the Ray Gricar thread a few days ago and skimmed some of the posts when I came across this post.

I believe there are powerful people whether it be mafia or other people that have the connections to do such a crime and to execute it so perfectly. I think RG was a big threat to whoever done this and these people felt he needed to be take out of the equation.I also believe the laptop was just a non important object thrown in that area just so the search would stay in that area and that is also why the car was also parked there .

I also believe RG did not drive the car there he was probably already taken care of before the car even arrived at the sos . [/*]


:seeya: Nappy,

I don't know very much about modern day mafia. (is that what they're still called?) Money is the root of all evil (imo) If an outfit thought that Ray Gricar was going to get in the way of their money making endeavors? I just don't know?

[Cinderella]

Welcome Nappy,

Nice to have you join us. The more posters that we have, we more chances that we have of finding out what happened to Ray.

I agree with your scenario. Ray looked like he was very frightened on the picture. I believe he knew that someone was after him. I also wonder if we will ever know what happened to him.

This might be terrible, but I wondered if they tested any of the ashes. Do you think that that could have been all that remained of him. I know that is terrible, but that is what I was wondering.
Maybe whoever left a message. LE is afraid to do anything with this case as they might be next, at least that is what I get the impression of. I truly believe that someone on the inside of the courthouse had to help the killer in some way.

Books and laptops don't have legs.

I personally feel that PF and JKA know more than they are saying because of fear.

JMO

Please keep posting.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by nappy
I just found the Ray Gricar thread a few days ago and skimmed some of the posts when I came across this post.

I believe there are powerful people whether it be mafia or other people that have the connections to do such a crime and to execute it so perfectly. I think RG was a big threat to whoever done this and these people felt he needed to be take out of the equation.I also believe the laptop was just a non important object thrown in that area just so the search would stay in that area and that is also why the car was also parked there .

I also believe RG did not drive the car there he was probably already taken care of before the car even arrived at the sos . [/*]

WELCOME aboard Nappy!! Finally-your beginning on your post is what I too feel is a bingo. Except lp did serve a purpose IMHO. Also no need for much evidence at the mini cause IMHO he went with X in that car to talk. The scent dogs even seem to confirm that. I believe he was watched and was aware of it from the third house from the top. Can anyone point me to a 3rd house from the top?

[nappy]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Welcome Nappy,

Nice to have you join us. The more posters that we have, we more chances that we have of finding out what happened to Ray.

I agree with your scenario. Ray looked like he was very frightened on the picture. I believe he knew that someone was after him. I also wonder if we will ever know what happened to him.

This might be terrible, but I wondered if they tested any of the ashes. Do you think that that could have been all that remained of him. I know that is terrible, but that is what I was wondering.
Maybe whoever left a message. LE is afraid to do anything with this case as they might be next, at least that is what I get the impression of. I truly believe that someone on the inside of the courthouse had to help the killer in some way.

Books and laptops don't have legs.

I personally feel that PF and JKA know more than they are saying because of fear.

JMO

Please keep posting. [/*]


First thank you for the welcome !

I just wanted to say I never thought of the ashes in that way. The thoughts of the ashes that way are sad but if thats what they are the powers that be did that to make a example to the LE and to let them know this can happen again !

[nappy]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


WELCOME aboard Nappy!! Finally-your beginning on your post is what I too feel is a bingo. Except lp did serve a purpose IMHO. Also no need for much evidence at the mini cause IMHO he went with X in that car to talk. The scent dogs even seem to confirm that. I believe he was watched and was aware of it from the third house from the top. Can anyone point me to a 3rd house from the top? [/*]

Thank you for the welcome I just hope I can help !:patriot:

[J. J. in Phila]

Hello Nappy!

Originally posted by nappy

I believe there are powerful people whether it be mafia or other people that have the connections to do such a crime and to execute it so perfectly. I think RG was a big threat to whoever done this and these people felt he needed to be take out of the equation.I also believe the laptop was just a non important object thrown in that area just so the search would stay in that area and that is also why the car was also parked there .


I couldn't rule out organized crime, but I don't know what the motivation was.

The laptop wasn't found until well after the searches were completed, and the drive was removed, before it was tossed.

I don't think anyone has used the laptop as proof RFG was in Lewisburg nor that it couldn't have been tossed at a later date.


I also believe RG did not drive the car there he was probably already taken care of before the car even arrived at the sos . [/*]

On that I have to disagree. Even if he was grabbed outside of the house, it doesn't explain the in route cell phone call, nor the lack of evidence of anyone else driving it, nor the evidence that he drove it, nor his scent being discovered in the parking lot, nor, last and least, the witnesses.

Something happened after he showed up. What?

[nappy]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Hello Nappy!



I couldn't rule out organized crime, but I don't know what the motivation was.

The laptop wasn't found until well after the searches were completed, and the drive was removed, before it was tossed.

I don't think anyone has used the laptop as proof RFG was in Lewisburg nor that it couldn't have been tossed at a later date.



On that I have to disagree. Even if he was grabbed outside of the house, it doesn't explain the in route cell phone call, nor the lack of evidence of anyone else driving it, nor the evidence that he drove it, nor his scent being discovered in the parking lot, nor, last and least, the witnesses.

Something happened after he showed up. What? [/*]

First of all thank you for the welcome J.J!

About the cell phone call we know he made it to that point .

Imo there are ways to drive the car without leaving traces by a person who doesnt want to leave a trace I believe this was done by a person who has alot of experience at that.

as far as witnesses . witnesses can be bought!

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


WELCOME aboard Nappy!! Finally-your beginning on your post is what I too feel is a bingo. Except lp did serve a purpose IMHO. Also no need for much evidence at the mini cause IMHO he went with X in that car to talk. The scent dogs even seem to confirm that. I believe he was watched and was aware of it from the third house from the top. Can anyone point me to a 3rd house from the top? [/*]

Welcome to Nappy and Slap Happy tonight.

CB, We were talking about the word Devils and I thought I had seen it in connection to a motorcycle gang. I went to the FBI site where the have all the info on motorcycle gangs that are in the United States. I found that the major gangs have groups under them with different names. Each section of the US, Northeast, Southeast, Northwest, Southwest, etc, have a list of gangs, with some from the Southwest now in the Northeast and Southeast. Mainly I was concerned with PA, NY, NJ, MD, DE, WA, VA, WV, OH.

When researching drugs busts in PA, I have saw drugs and murders linked to these gangs. THe drugs were coming in from as far away as Mexico and AZ, OH, MI and IL, and states as far south as FL.

Anyways under Hell's Angels I foubd they have a group called Red Devil's and those 2 are listed in PA.

I didn't get to the site with the numbers of members, had to get off for a while.

I was also on a site that listed different mafia groups, with Italian and Russian being listed, and more. I just remembered it when one of the recent posts mentioned organized crime.

I am going to put FBI.com. as the website but I will go back and get the page link. Forgot to grab that this afternoon.

Here is the link:

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/ngic/violent_gangs.htm

[slaphappy]

J.J. ,

You commented to Nappy about the en route cell phone call. That doesn't prove that Ray was driving the mini cooper. He could have been forced to make that call while a passenger in another car. If this is a possible scenerio, I'm sure he could have been convinced to sound calm. The mini cooper could have arrived later. Or a passenger in the mini while Ray?

Not one single person saw him leave his house that day. None of the neighbors even.

[sherrijean981]

I want to apologize for all the typo's in my previous post. Still only typing one handed, left hand still not working right. I didn't see the errors in time to correct them. :)

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by slaphappy
J.J. ,

You commented to Nappy about the en route cell phone call. That doesn't prove that Ray was driving the mini cooper. He could have been forced to make that call while a passenger in another car. If this is a possible scenerio, I'm sure he could have been convinced to sound calm. The mini cooper could have arrived later. Or a passenger in the mini while Ray?

Not one single person saw him leave his house that day. None of the neighbors even. [/*]


Slaphappy now you have given me a thought. That call would have given the abductors much more time. PF might have called LE earlier if she didn't receive a call from Ray stating that he wouldn't be home in time to put the dog out. She didn't expect him home around the time that she was getting off work. He did not specify when he would be home. So she might have waited longer than normal to call LE.

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Welcome to Nappy and Slap Happy tonight.

CB, We were talking about the word Devils and I thought I had seen it in connection to a motorcycle gang. I went to the FBI site where the have all the info on motorcycle gangs that are in the United States. I found that the major gangs have groups under them with different names. Each section of the US, Northeast, Southeast, Northwest, Southwest, etc, have a list of gangs, with some from the Southwest now in the Northeast and Southeast. Mainly I was concerned with PA, NY, NJ, MD, DE, WA, VA, WV, OH.

When researching drugs busts in PA, I have saw drugs and murders linked to these gangs. THe drugs were coming in from as far away as Mexico and AZ, OH, MI and IL, and states as far south as FL.

Anyways under Hell's Angels I foubd they have a group called Red Devil's and those 2 are listed in PA.

I didn't get to the site with the numbers of members, had to get off for a while.

I was also on a site that listed different mafia groups, with Italian and Russian being listed, and more. I just remembered it when one of the recent posts mentioned organized crime.

I am going to put FBI.com. as the website but I will go back and get the page link. Forgot to grab that this afternoon.

Here is the link:

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/ngic/violent_gangs.htm [/*]



sherrijean,:seeya:


Ok, now I'm getting goosebumps! Toward the end of your post you stated "Forgot to grab that this afternoon." Are you saying that you were on the mafia sites this afternoon?? Tonight I posted a question about poweful criminals with connections. Nappy feels that the mafia is involved . UndertheRadar agreed. And today before any of us posted anything about this , you were looking in to it!!

p.s. Sorry about your hand.

[Cinderella]

I remember reading it before that Ray prosecuted someone from a motorcycle gang. It was in the CDT archives.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by slaphappy




sherrijean,:seeya:


Ok, now I'm getting goosebumps! Toward the end of your post you stated "Forgot to grab that this afternoon." Are you saying that you were on the mafia sites this afternoon?? Tonight I posted a question about poweful criminals with connections. Nappy feels that the mafia is involved . UndertheRadar agreed. And today before any of us posted anything about this , you were looking in to it!!

p.s. Sorry about your hand. [/*]

Sorry SlapHappy. UTR does **not** think the mafia was involved in any way, shape, or form with the disappearance of Ray Gricar! Just wanted to make that clear.

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I remember reading it before that Ray prosecuted someone from a motorcycle gang. It was in the CDT archives. [/*]


Cinderella,

Are we still able to access those old posts? Isn't that a strange coincidence, though? Something in the air or what?

I hope you are feeling better! (did you find my other post to you?)

Well, Goodnight Cinderella. It's kinda late here :seeya:

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Sorry SlapHappy. UTR does **not** think the mafia was involved in any way, shape, or form with the disappearance of Ray Gricar! Just wanted to make that clear. [/*]


UndertheRadar,


I am so so sorry :o That was cloudbuster that agreed with nappy. I never told anyone I wasn't a knucklehead sometimes! I guess I just got a little excited about the coincidence tonight. And then with sherrijean looking it up today ...... got carried away and wrote the wrong nic. That and it is kinda late here. Again, my sincere apologies.... especially when I know you are a stickler for getting facts straight!

Have a goodnight, UndertheRadar!!

slaphappy :punch: to slaphappy

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by slaphappy



UndertheRadar,


I am so so sorry :o That was cloudbuster that agreed with nappy. I never told anyone I wasn't a knucklehead sometimes! I guess I just got a little excited about the coincidence tonight. And then with sherrijean looking it up today ...... got carried away and wrote the wrong nic. That and it is kinda late here. Again, my sincere apologies.... especially when I know you are a stickler for getting facts straight!

Have a goodnight, UndertheRadar!!

slaphappy :punch: to slaphappy [/*]

No problem at all, SH. It's a no harm, no foul situation. :)

But you are right. I am indeed a real stickler for getting the facts straight!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by slaphappy
J.J. ,

You commented to Nappy about the en route cell phone call. That doesn't prove that Ray was driving the mini cooper. He could have been forced to make that call while a passenger in another car. If this is a possible scenerio, I'm sure he could have been convinced to sound calm. The mini cooper could have arrived later. Or a passenger in the mini while Ray?

Not one single person saw him leave his house that day. None of the neighbors even. [/*]

He could very calmly say, "Hello Patricia, this is Raymond. I won't be home to walk Fido and and I won't be back for a usually dinner at the Nitanny Lion Inn."

(He caller her Patty, FWIBLTB, the dog's name was Honey, and they didn't usually go to that restaurant.)
If you want to calmly set off alarm bells, that's the way to do it.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by slaphappy




sherrijean,:seeya:


Ok, now I'm getting goosebumps! Toward the end of your post you stated "Forgot to grab that this afternoon." Are you saying that you were on the mafia sites this afternoon?? Tonight I posted a question about poweful criminals with connections. Nappy feels that the mafia is involved . UndertheRadar agreed. And today before any of us posted anything about this , you were looking in to it!!

p.s. Sorry about your hand. [/*]

Yes I was looking at the FBI site in the morning. I have been reading about it for a while, also the PA Attorney General site was where I had started getting info about gangs in the drug busts. One was a motorcycle gang in lower SE part of the state, They are not a friendly group.

I also was sent a very large article on a Russian Mafia group that is Jewish. After reading the article I deleted it. It was very detailed but the dates only went to 2001/2002 and it was all over the US. I can imagine how it has grown since then. jmo

[Chump#7]

SJ,

There is enough 'organized crime', to use the term loosely, right under your nose in Centre County with hardly a degree of separation between anyone involved in this case, LE, you, me... No need to pursue exotic foreign elements.

It's going to take some loose lips in this case regardless of the perpetrator(s). Meanwhile, 'piss on your leg, and tell you it's raining' is all you're going to get (I've found Central Pennsylvanians exceptionally skilled at that in my travels). I wonder if TG ever got that feeling?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Chump#7
SJ,

There is enough 'organized crime', to use the term loosely, right under your nose in Centre County with hardly a degree of separation between anyone involved in this case, LE, you, me... No need to pursue exotic foreign elements.

It's going to take some loose lips in this case regardless of the perpetrator(s). Meanwhile, 'piss on your leg, and tell you it's raining' is all you're going to get (I've found Central Pennsylvanians exceptionally skilled at that in my travels). I wonder if TG ever got that feeling? [/*]

I actually thought of what you were saying about "back door business" in State College, when I read about the Russian Mafia. With it being Jewish people and in the US it could be in every town in centre County and PA.

[Cloudbuster]

One aspect to look into is a insurance deal. Center that around a what sounds like Robert A. Maybe PF or Lara might know that name.????

[Chump#7]

You must have picked up on my father (Robert A.) there, CB. Heh. Sorry 'bout that.

[Cloudbuster]

Chump if your father sells insurance or is into that then we might be connecting but if he don't then it can't be the same Robert A.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Chump if your father sells insurance or is into that then we might be connecting but if he don't then it can't be the same Robert A. [/*]

The is a prominent Robert A. ____ that sells insurance in Cambria County, but insuring a horse in Centre County sounds like a long shot.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


The is a prominent Robert A. ____ that sells insurance in Cambria County, but insuring a horse in Centre County sounds like a long shot. [/*]

JJ your thinking like me latly thats scary but I know exactly who you mean cause remeber when I said I wanted to kiss ya? Thats when I found that name. I just don't know if its the same one but sure is interesting. JJ would it make sense to you if someone would say run for your soul going by hearing that above name?

[nappy]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


JJ your thinking like me latly thats scary but I know exactly who you mean cause remeber when I said I wanted to kiss ya? Thats when I found that name. I just don't know if its the same one but sure is interesting. JJ would it make sense to you if someone would say run for your soul going by hearing that above name? [/*]


Cloudbuster you lost me about three miles back!
what did you mean by your last sentence , it's over my head !:confused:

[Cloudbuster]

Sorry nappy it's more of a spiritual nature of hearing words. I probably should have posted that on the parnormal thread of this case.
:rose:

[nappy]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Sorry nappy it's more of a spiritual nature of hearing words. I probably should have posted that on the parnormal thread of this case.
:rose: [/*]

Thank you Cloudbuster I now understand what you meant.

I personally believe there is alot more out there in this world than what people think and I also believe that most anyone can see these things they just dont want to!

I for one believe you have a gift and I respect you for sharing your gift!

[nappy]

I found some imformation that does possibly support my mafia idea .1. The day of march 31. 2005 RG announced he had brought charges against 9 heroin dealers in center county and north jersey but the supplier of these 9 dealers was from New York City a known mafia territory.The Day of March 31 2005 was just 15 days before RG's disappearence. The main suppler [mafia] is not going to take the fall for 9 dealers that already had charges brought up against them by RG so they take RG out of the equation I'm assuming to make a example of what can happen if this is tryed again and also a example to the 9 dealer so they keep their mouths shut.

The link to the info is

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

This is the first time I did the address stuff so I hope this works!

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by nappy


Thank you Cloudbuster I now understand what you meant.

I personally believe there is alot more out there in this world than what people think and I also believe that most anyone can see these things they just dont want to!

I for one believe you have a gift and I respect you for sharing your gift! [/*]

Thanks Nappy but Im afraid I don't think I have any gift just what I call old eyes. Thats just a small ability to see thru some things that many would never think of. Sometimes if you can see something it's not what you might want to see. Sometimes I think it could be much easier to be naive. This case has had strange things happen in it including the book that ended up on MSmiths desk. I think if your looking for signs the universe will give them. Our LW is much better at understanding them! I also hope I didn't creep Chump out cause Im sure that was just a coindence. Or maybe he or she was joking with me lol. Im just learning how to feel energy now but sometimes Im so dense lol. I have a past of having things not so ordinary happen since childhood but just occurences throughout life here and there. I think we all have had that if your open minded to it. When people only think one way and close that part off they ruin what they might see. Its not their fault I think its just fear. With the amount of energy and focus on this case from everyone I just expect that the universe source will give us anwers.:rose:

[Chump#7]

Yeah, CB - I was just joking. All in good nature, of course. I pretty much dwell on the skeptical side of these things, but I'm not so arrogant as to dismiss the possibilities...

But it was also coincidental that my post was at the top of the page and my father had just visited us over the holiday. And he had dallied in insurance at one time although not his 'career'.

[nappy]

I was on alot of websites lastnight looking up RG and I found one universial fact nobody cares dont get me wrong I found stuff on RG but it was archived and has not been talked about for along time. I find it sad this man has been forgot and push under the rug I just dont understand why RG isnt important anymore and why nobody wants to help him. The thing is each one of you guys keep the life line open by posting about RG and you keep his disapperance a everyday fact by talking about this man that nobody really cares about . What I dont understand is RG was a important guy he wasnt just some guy off the street and the fbi and the psp just brushed this case off as if nothing ever happend !

[Cinderella]

Thanks for the link, Nappy. This is just so sad. He cared for and represented a lot of people who had been wronged, but hardly anyone stood up for him.

I imagine that if they could find JFK, Jr. at the bottom of the ocean, then they could have found out what happened to Ray.

As a side note, It was really weird to me that they take all the time and locate JFK, Jr. Just to bring in up out of the ocean, cremate him, and throw him back in the ocean. JMO, MOO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by nappy
I was on alot of websites lastnight looking up RG and I found one universial fact nobody cares dont get me wrong I found stuff on RG but it was archived and has not been talked about for along time. I find it sad this man has been forgot and push under the rug I just dont understand why RG isnt important anymore and why nobody wants to help him. The thing is each one of you guys keep the life line open by posting about RG and you keep his disapperance a everyday fact by talking about this man that nobody really cares about . What I dont understand is RG was a important guy he wasnt just some guy off the street and the fbi and the psp just brushed this case off as if nothing ever happend ! [/*]

I was just sent this link. Maybe here is the reason for his disappearance and the lack of publicity or investigation. Ray might have known too much from informants and was going to go public with who and what he found out. Please don't tell me it couldn't happen. I have seen the AG site and this article sends chills down my back. We also know Taji Lee was not the top dog in his drug bust. There was someone he got his stuff from, where all the dealers are getting there stuff from.

Look what happened to the woman and her family because she didn't want it in her neighborhood.

http://www.november.org:80/stayinfo/breaking07/SnitchStory.html

[nappy]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I was just sent this link. Maybe here is the reason for his disappearance and the lack of publicity or investigation. Ray might have known too much from informants and was going to go public with who and what he found out. Please don't tell me it couldn't happen. I have seen the AG site and this article sends chills down my back. We also know Taji Lee was not the top dog in his drug bust. There was someone he got his stuff from, where all the dealers are getting there stuff from.

Look what happened to the woman and her family because she didn't want it in her neighborhood.

http://www.november.org:80/stayinfo/breaking07/SnitchStory.html [/*]

I believe what ended RG's life was probly a .50 cent pay phone call because thats all it takes is one phone call and the people RG was trying to put away was two bit drug dealers but the suppler of those two bit drug dealers are the same people who have the power and the money to pull strings and call the [shots] ! The supplers are not going to take any chances on getting put away because of a couple rats, The problem is the powers that be dont know what these rats told RG to save their own tail so what do they do they take RG out of the picture and by doing so they also made a example to the rat's [if we can take a important person like RG out what can we do to rats like you] So by taking care of RG the problem is solved .

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by nappy


I believe what ended RG's life was probly a .50 cent pay phone call because thats all it takes is one phone call and the people RG was trying to put away was two bit drug dealers but the suppler of those two bit drug dealers are the same people who have the power and the money to pull strings and call the [shots] ! The supplers are not going to take any chances on getting put away because of a couple rats, The problem is the powers that be dont know what these rats told RG to save their own tail so what do they do they take RG out of the picture and by doing so they also made a example to the rat's [if we can take a important person like RG out what can we do to rats like you] So by taking care of RG the problem is solved . [/*]

nappy,

Ray might have been made an example of. Like I just posted on another thread, the only thing I 'know' about organized crime comes from movies. Do I think Ray could have been killed by a crime oufit? Yes, he could have.
If Ray was to be an 'example' why hide the body? Luna's body wasn't hidden. (although Luna's death hasn't officially been solved - I believe it was drug related)
Over the past 2 years so many good questions have been posted on this forum. Most of them have never been answered. I'm not even sure if the police checked into some of them. What a shame for Ray.

[Cinderella]

I still feel that Ray was going to be a secret witness, but the word got out and then he met his fate. No one can't tell me exactly what he was going to be a witness for on the following Monday. I don't think that he wanted to be a witness and I think that may have been what was troubling him. I feel that it was supposed to have been secretive and someone in the courthouse spread the word. Just my opinion.

BTW, I would have loved to see Pete Bosak as Taji Verbal Lee what he meant when he said that Madeira knew where to kick the dirt or something to that effect. To me that would be a good reporter. Did anyone question him. NO Could they still question him, YES. Will they? NO Newspapers anymore are for entertainment. They are not for the major news or trying to break up the corruption in the world.

[nappy]

Originally posted by slaphappy


nappy,

Ray might have been made an example of. Like I just posted on another thread, the only thing I 'know' about organized crime comes from movies. Do I think Ray could have been killed by a crime oufit? Yes, he could have.
If Ray was to be an 'example' why hide the body? Luna's body wasn't hidden. (although Luna's death hasn't officially been solved - I believe it was drug related)
Over the past 2 years so many good questions have been posted on this forum. Most of them have never been answered. I'm not even sure if the police checked into some of them. What a shame for Ray. [/*]

These are good questions Slaphappy!

1. I truly dont believe Luna and RG were killed by the same organizations.

2. I think Luna was at the wrong place at the wrong time and I dont think there was any planning to this. I mean Luna was stabbed what 32 times thisvwas out of pure enjoyment or revenge or both!

3. In the case of RG this was no doubt planned for the reason it was nice and clean as for the body why mess somthing so perfect up and they only let the FBI and PSP find what they wanted them to find !

have a good night!:seeya:

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I still feel that Ray was going to be a secret witness, but the word got out and then he met his fate. No one can't tell me exactly what he was going to be a witness for on the following Monday. I don't think that he wanted to be a witness and I think that may have been what was troubling him. I feel that it was supposed to have been secretive and someone in the courthouse spread the word. Just my opinion.

BTW, I would have loved to see Pete Bosak as Taji Verbal Lee what he meant when he said that Madeira knew where to kick the dirt or something to that effect. To me that would be a good reporter. Did anyone question him. NO Could they still question him, YES. Will they? NO Newspapers anymore are for entertainment. They are not for the major news or trying to break up the corruption in the world. [/*]

Cinderella,

I agree that there just don't seem to be any more true investigative reporters. It is all for the ratings and money. Some of the questions you posters have asked repeatedly on these threads have been great ones. Too bad the police and reporters both didn't have the tenacity you guys have!

That comment about 'knowing where to kick up dirt' always stuck in my head, too!

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by nappy


These are good questions Slaphappy!

1. I truly dont believe Luna and RG were killed by the same organizations.

2. I think Luna was at the wrong place at the wrong time and I dont think there was any planning to this. I mean Luna was stabbed what 32 times thisvwas out of pure enjoyment or revenge or both!

3. In the case of RG this was no doubt planned for the reason it was nice and clean as for the body why mess somthing so perfect up and they only let the FBI and PSP find what they wanted them to find !

have a good night!:seeya: [/*]

nappy,

Sorry, didn't mean for you to take it that way. I don't belive that Ray and Luna were killed by the same organization. There are some things that point in opposite directions . For one, Luna being found and then not even knowing what happened ot Ray.
When you say 'why mess something so perfect up'? Do you mean because there is no body and no scene of the crime?
I am asking because I truly feel it was all staged ... the car, the laptop, hard drive, cell phone... all of it.

[nappy]

Originally posted by slaphappy


nappy,

Sorry, didn't mean for you to take it that way. I don't belive that Ray and Luna were killed by the same organization. There are some things that point in opposite directions . For one, Luna being found and then not even knowing what happened ot Ray.
When you say 'why mess something so perfect up'? Do you mean because there is no body and no scene of the crime?
I am asking because I truly feel it was all staged ... the car, the laptop, hard drive, cell phone... all of it. [/*]

:beer: Slaphappy one more beer isnt going to hurt you!
I believe you are saying the same thing I am :punch:

[lol]

[slaphappy]

:D nappy,

I don't drink or do drugs. Sometimes I laugh because people pay good money to get what I already get free! (goofiness)

Somtimes you just have to overlook my ramblings.

Have a good night.:beer:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by slaphappy
:D nappy,

I don't drink or do drugs. Sometimes I laugh because people pay good money to get what I already get free! (goofiness)

Somtimes you just have to overlook my ramblings.

Have a good night.:beer: [/*]

That first paragraph is good.
You sound like my hubby. He has a LOT of child in him and has a great sense of humor once you get to know him. But he is goofy a lot too. I can count on him for my laughter. :lol:

[Cloudbuster]

The whole drug case centers down to Lee being at the top BUT is he??? You don't think out of all those people who got busted that RG did not find out anything? lol.

It wouldn't just be RG to know everything that came out of that bust. Those who worked it included who????? If you think the buck stopped at TLee roflmao. The link SJ put up check them names out and notice they was not convicted yet. It was more like postponed postponed ect.

Unconvential disclaimer:
Now orginally I heard the words "you crossed moo moo" and i wondered what the hay that meant and started a search on that name and the only thing I could find is what SJ put up. Im wondering what those words could mean and to me its like by busted TLee clan seems they crossed this moo moo. I think that pipeline spreads to various outlet chains. I wonder what ended up happeneing with the moo moo case and by what date?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
The whole drug case centers down to Lee being at the top BUT is he??? You don't think out of all those people who got busted that RG did not find out anything? lol.

It wouldn't just be RG to know everything that came out of that bust. Those who worked it included who????? If you think the buck stopped at TLee roflmao. The link SJ put up check them names out and notice they was not convicted yet. It was more like postponed postponed ect.

Unconvential disclaimer:
Now orginally I heard the words "you crossed moo moo" and i wondered what the hay that meant and started a search on that name and the only thing I could find is what SJ put up. Im wondering what those words could mean and to me its like by busted TLee clan seems they crossed this moo moo. I think that pipeline spreads to various outlet chains. I wonder what ended up happeneing with the moo moo case and by what date? [/*]

RFG wasn't the one prosecuting the case; the AG was. If someone wanted to send a message regarding this, why not kill MM, or his family, or someone who worked for the AG's office? And what is the message; how would anyone prosecuting Lee get the message from RFG disappearing, possibly committing suicide or walking away? :confused:

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


RFG wasn't the one prosecuting the case; the AG was. If someone wanted to send a message regarding this, why not kill MM, or his family, or someone who worked for the AG's office? And what is the message; how would anyone prosecuting Lee get the message from RFG disappearing, possibly committing suicide or walking away? :confused: [/*]

J.J.,

One could also say that if Ray where to be an example, why hide the body? Leave it out for the message to be read loud and clear.
Sometimes though, silence is just as deadly. His 'vanishing' could also be used as a message. It probably all depends on the 'messengers' way of speaking.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by slaphappy


J.J.,

One could also say that if Ray where to be an example, why hide the body? Leave it out for the message to be read loud and clear.
Sometimes though, silence is just as deadly. His 'vanishing' could also be used as a message. It probably all depends on the 'messengers' way of speaking. [/*]

But would messengers from the drug underworld set up the "vanishing point" in a way that so obviously echoed the vanishing point of Ray's brother Roy?

And how would these drug underworld folk have known that Ray was going to take the day off that Friday, since the story is apparently that he woke up and told PF he was going to play hooky that day? Were they just sitting outside the house on Halfmoon Hill, waiting to see if he went to work or if he was going to hop in the Mini and go for a ride on what would normally be a workday for a District Attorney?

I don't know, Slaphappy, but those are two big obstacles in the way of me ever signing on to the "targeted by the drug guy" theory.

[slaphappy]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


But would messengers from the drug underworld set up the "vanishing point" in a way that so obviously echoed the vanishing point of Ray's brother Roy?

And how would these drug underworld folk have known that Ray was going to take the day off that Friday, since the story is apparently that he woke up and told PF he was going to play hooky that day? Were they just sitting outside the house on Halfmoon Hill, waiting to see if he went to work or if he was going to hop in the Mini and go for a ride on what would normally be a workday for a District Attorney?

I don't know, Slaphappy, but those are two big obstacles in the way of me ever signing on to the "targeted by the drug guy" theory. [/*]

UndertheRadar,

What if the 'vanishing point' was meant to echoe Roy, to those who weren't in on the 'vanishing'. To 'us' it resembled Roy's demise ... but may have been a 'message' to others.

As far as telling Patty that he was playing hooky that day, Why couldn't he have that planned ahead? Just didn't tell Patty about it until that morning. Making it all the more 'spur of the minute' thing.

I don't know either. Not so sure I buy completely into the organized crime theory. But I do believe Ray was set up somehow.

Thanks UndertheRadar for all your input.:seeya:

[Cloudbuster]

This isn't RG being watched from Halfmoon. RG had set a meeting with the person whom he was not afraid to meet with. The body being hidden indicates the person he met with did know him and he him. If this was not true then RG would have come back to work that afternoon. Im tellin ya he was set up. He was not in immediate danger and he did call PF to change his story to make it into a whole day and no he wasn't out canvassing antiques. He was working. He thought they could talk things out but later end up at someones house awaiting a phone call which then lead into problems. I will stick a unconvential disclaimer on this. He didn't orginally have a drug gang person enter his car- it was not like that in the beginning. :eek:

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, it would be possible that a killer would not have been aware of Roy Gricar's suicide, and the site was coincidental.

That said, you are correct that there is no clear message. As pointed out previously, we do have the "closer friend," and possibly more than one, that do not believe this was a murder. Even TG posted very high odds that this was suicide. That certainly is not a clear message.

[UndertheRadar]

Leaving TG aside for a moment, the only "closer" friend I can find cited who has gone on record as saying he believes RG committed suicide is JB.

My opinion only, but in terms of JB's comments to the press, he offered only two credible observations about Ray, both corroborated by others who also knew RG:

1) that Ray was a very private person and

2) that in relation to the cell phone, Ray "was the kind of person that prided himself on law enforcement being able to reach him if something serious went down."

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm not certain who JB is? :)

I think Tony Gricar did give very high odds on suicide, i.e. Murder 50%, Suicide 49%, walkaway.

TG did post that Sloane did not believe it was suicide, but not what he thought.

I think we are in agreement that a hypothetical killer did not send any clear message.

I'm trying to look at this objectively, and even if I were to assume that this was murder, I couldn't tell what message was being sent.

[UndertheRadar]

Hell will probably freeze over, but I think JJ and I have found a single point of agreement: any hypothetical killer did not send a clear message with RG's disappearance.

(Waits while most of the board recovers from a dead faint.)

Meanwhile, I'm sure you know who JB is, JJ. Think sack of oatmeal, bag of algae.

In general, I thought he used his appearance on GVS as an opportunity to bad-mouth RG without regard to the sensitivities of the family and without regard to RG as one of his "purported close friends." I also think he used the media time as his own little mini 15 minutes of fame. And I don't give much weight at all to his assessment of RG's motives for disappearing given the general tenor of his comments.

But the two things I mentioned, his observation that Ray was private and his observation that Ray prided himself on being available for LE to reach in the event something serious went down--now both of those are observable truths about Ray's behavior that don't depend on JB's interpretation, and both are corroborated by other people.

The latter I think is most interesting in terms of that turned off cell phone, which I have always believed to be a key issue in the case.

[J. J. in Phila]

I know now, but I would, in no way[/i], call Bryant a "closer friend." We may agree on that point too. ;)

The thing is though that Bryant wasn't a closer friend, and RFG [u]may not have as private as he was with other people. I think TG alluded to it at one point. His interactions with RFG may have been very different with those that were closer to RFG (Sloane, Walker). I have 3-4 friends that I'll talk about nearly anything with. I have other friends that I'm not so close to and they know much less about me.

I'm not too convinced regarding the cell phone. There was the Cleveland trip, where apparently he was incommunicado (well, no one could contact him and I'm reasonably sure they would have tried his cell phone).

Also, it doesn't seem to have struck anyone odd that no one at the office heard from him on 4/15/05 on anything official.

There is also the question of simply leaving a message, and assuming he'd call back. I have not gotten the impression that anyone found it odd that when PEF called, he didn't answer.

(Just for the record, at one point, if I had been unable to be reach by land line or cell phone, it would have been indicative of a problem. It isn't now.)

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


RFG wasn't the one prosecuting the case; the AG was. If someone wanted to send a message regarding this, why not kill MM, or his family, or someone who worked for the AG's office? And what is the message; how would anyone prosecuting Lee get the message from RFG disappearing, possibly committing suicide or walking away? :confused: [/*]

Exactly correct JJ!! Whatever RG stumbled on in the drug bust was PERSONAL between RG and the killer. It didn't include MM ect. IT was PERSONAL between two people whom knew each other. The other would have to be close enough to RG to know that RG stumbled on to something during that bust. RG even going to Lewisburg to meet with someone should tell you that alone. TLee statement about kicking the dirt where it needed to be kicked was another clue missed.

JJ the person did send a message and yes you are correct it's not clear but it is a PERFECT message. The message being that the k is personally known to RG hides the body and sends no real message but one that is clear to me. The message is Suicide, walkaway, foulplay. The message is all 3!!!! If you thought you was confused -now you will be lol. Can't you see you are dealing with the very message left behind:
1. walkaway
2. suicide
3. foulplay

If you now get the message- then know that by hiding the body allows the killer to send a clear message of the 3. Now how would you ever figure out this case as long as your still stuck on the unclear 3 messages the killer left? That is the message and a perfect one too. Your not dealing with a dummy but a smart person. They hid the body to convey the message of all 3 theories to confuse everyone.

They came back tossed the laptop from the southside of the bridge IMOO and further sent you one more unclear message. Think now by throwing the laptop is another brilliant play. Once again it points of walkaway or foul play. So now they gave you 2 theories left. Maybe the next clue will get us down to one?

Have you gotton the message yet roflmao?

[UndertheRadar]

Well, make that two points of agreement in one night. Hell surely will freeze over now for certain. No, I wouldn't personally describe JB as one of RG's "closer friends," based on actions we saw post-disappearance. But that's the rub--making judgments about what the relationship might have been based on how JB acted on television after RG wasn't there any more. Who knows how RG himself would have characterized the relationship had he never disappeared and had JB never gone on GVS and said such thoughtless things? Difficult to say, since RG wasn't around by the time JB made the "bowl of oatmeal, sack of algae" comments.

As for the phone, I realize I'm more convinced than you are. I don't see the Indians game as convincing. We don't even know that RG **had** a cell phone at that point. I don't think it's ever been delineated specifically when that event took place, except that it occurred when he did not have an SO. That would mean it either was between his marriage to EG and the start of a serious relationship with PF, so sometime in 2001, apparently, or between BG and EG, putting it back in the '90's. Either way, if he had only a pager at that point, I can certainly see no one **paging** RG simply because they didn't know where he was for a brief time. IIRC, TG said he left in the afternoon and returned either late the same night or very early the next morning, so that's hardly the kind of thing co-workers/friends are going to **page** someone over when the someone is their boss and a rational adult over the age of 21.

I just happen to think what Bryant says on that score adds a layer to what Smith said on the same issue, and I think the phrasing "prided himself on being available" is telling. I've seen that same mindset, because I live with it and understand it all too well.

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, it seems that someone wanted to contact RFG, and couldn't, in regard to the Indians' game.

I'm considered, oddly by a few lawyers, as someone super accessible. I would almost never give out my cell number and I could be out of the house for 4-6 hours at a time. If I have to do something, I might not immediately call back when I get in and see my answering machine flashing; though I usually do within an hour or so.

RFG had voice mail, and even returning a call the next day might well be considered "being available."

[UndertheRadar]

I don't specifically recall anyone wanting to contact RG when he went to the Indians game, JJ. I'll admit, though, it's been a long time since I've read any of the articles on that issue, so I don't have all the specifics lined up in my brain. But I don't have any immediate recall that anyone tried to contact him, just that people wondered where he'd gone, couldn't find him, and that he was sheepishly surprised to find people had been concerned when he got back.

I think RG knew as well as anyone that you can't plan emergencies. I'm thinking, for instance, of the morning that the young woman opened fire on Penn State's campus. Who could have foreseen something like that? RG didn't like to pass the buck and hand that sort of situation over to the second in command. He knew where the buck stopped, and it was with him. I can see him as someone who "prided himself" as being reachable by LE if a serious situation occurred, not as someone who would get the message later and give a call back, maybe the next day.

[J. J. in Phila]

An unusual question, and I might have asked it before, but what television stations are generally watched in Lewisburg.

Does the cable service carry Johnstown and Altoona stations?

Prior to 4/15/05, how much would Lewisburgers see RFG on TV?