Pete Bosak's Question and Answer [Archive]

Cinderella

11-07-2007, 09:19 AM

Rumor is:

BJL's asked someone to borrow equipment to dig.

BJL's was concreting the weekend that Ray disappeared.

BJL's bragged about killing Ray, that Ray would not prosecute any
one again.

BJL's stated that Ray's body would not be found.

Many friends have been accessory to the murder because they know what BJL's told them first hand. They are just a guilty as he is in that they never reported what they knew to the police.

Why didn't BJL's just take care of himself without taking Ray with him?

Has this been covered up because BJL's is the fathers of Patty Fornicola's second cousin? Is that why PF isn't speaking?

BJL's opening told others that he killed Ray, yet the ones that he told kept it a secret.

Need I say more????????? When will LE listen to the citizens and make this wrong, right? Who is the higher power that is blocking this case.

I usally don't wish bad things on people, but I hope that everyone that with held the truth, sees Ray's ghost constantly.
I would like to know what was on Ray's cellphone, and also who gave BJL's the alabi other than his daughter. What a pressure to put on someone who has yet to graduate high school.

Let's not upset the family, just keep the skeltons in the closet.
Everyone that has know about this has Ray's blood on their hands. Ray's blood doesn't wash off.

BTW, someone wanted to know about what happened to the truck that BJL's had when he committed suicide. His Dad Joe, who just got a slap on the wrist for insurance fraud is driving it around.

When are we going to get newspapers that get us the information instead of us giving them the information. One thing about it is that everyone who wants to cimmit a crime and get off should move to Centre County where you pat my back and I will pat your back.

I am so pissed off that I can't continue. I have lost all faith in the LE and the justice system. I imagine LE know from the suicide scene about the letter. We need new honest people in our government.

Too back there isn't a middle finger icon as I would be using it to all that have know this from day one.

JMO, MOO

I also wonder if they have known where the body is? Since they don't have the resources, it would take to much money and trouble to properly bury Ray. But then again, Ray is just another person to step on to get where you want to go.

I live in Centre County and I hate the politics and the bull **** that goes on. I hope that Ray is getting his revenge in by hauntings.

tonyGricar

11-07-2007, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I posted a while back about hearing that BJL's left a suicide note that stated that he killed Ray Gricar. I didn't have the true source, only a good source witness. So I was right after all.

Please read Pete's Blog on 10/08/07.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

For some reason, BJL's name is being protected. Yet time after time everyone has told LE until they are blue in the face that they thought that BJL's did Ray in. Rockview State Police put a stop to anyone accusing BJL's. [/*]You might want to re-read the posting by Pete. He didn't say all 4 pieces were true.

And I'll repeat this once again: There has never been one single (zero) witness to corroborate any such boastings that he killed Ray and that his body would never be found. The PSP, BPD, and even myself have followed-up with any possible names (including some provided by board members) and, I'll say it again: zero have proven out.

BJL or JL would be very easy to "credit" this to, but the reality is, very little of what you posted is accurate.

Cinderella

11-07-2007, 05:23 PM

It would be my upmost desire to have LE take another look at BJL and JL. To use shoe leather and go to the places that BJL and JL frequented. To talk to neighbors of BJL. I am hoping that someone will speak up. These are two men that held grudges against Ray for doing his job. I want to see justice for Ray and I truly feel that it starts here. I am sure that some people are afraid to speak up for fear of retailation.

Has LE ever talked to the aunt? I think that she could greatly help them.

JMO, MOO

J. J. in Phila

11-07-2007, 06:52 PM

I should point out something. JL was arrested and, IIRC, did time; LE has his DNA and prints. LE obviously has BJL DNA and prints. They have not made a connection.

That might be because there is no connection.

J. J. in Phila

11-07-2007, 11:23 PM

Logic, I'm not sure that LE didn't search the areas. We do know that the PSP did a time line, but we don't know what information they used for constructing it (This would be the area where a grand jury would be useful).

If there would have been anything tying the L's, father and/or son, with the Mini, or the parking lot, LE would have made the link.

Cinderella

11-07-2007, 11:48 PM

J. J.

LOL, what timeline. The only timeline that they have is the last time that PF stated that she saw Ray then until they found the car. The CF timeline or the man from Rebersburg stating that he saw Ray doesn't add into their timeline.

At least we got another clue, a cryptic note written by BJL.

UndertheRadar

11-07-2007, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

And it might be because they didn't take a scent dog to either BJL's truck or JL's truck or properties to determine if there was any evidence of RG scent present.

[snip]
What we need to know is whether a scent dog was taken to both trucks and checked for RG's scent, and if the properties were checked out by a scent dog and a cadaver dog. [/*]

If dogs were taken onto private property, wouldn't a search warrant have been needed? I seem to remember from the Amy Mullins case that the dogs originally couldn't go further than the front door of the property until LE obtained the search warrant. I would think/hope the media would have gotten wind of a search warrant being executed at either Leathers' property and that we would have heard about it had it happened.

J. J. in Phila

11-08-2007, 12:15 AM

tonyGricar

11-08-2007, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J.

LOL, what timeline. The only timeline that they have is the last time that PF stated that she saw Ray then until they found the car. The CF timeline or the man from Rebersburg stating that he saw Ray doesn't add into their timeline.

At least we got another clue, a cryptic note written by BJL. [/*]The PSP ran the BJL timeline, not the BPD. BJL was accounted for, especially when paired up with the last time Patty saw Ray. It leaves a fairly short amount of time that Leathers needed to be accounted for, which they did.

And what cryptic letter are you referring to? I hope you're speaking of something other than a suicide note.

Also, feel free to have your Rebersburg man contact me with his information. Based on your account of what he saw, he would seem to be corroborating some form of runaway theory, ostensibly aided by PF due to his apparently being in bed around that time. On your, and his, timeline, that would put Ray leaving at a minimum of 7am.

tonyGricar

11-08-2007, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
If dogs were taken onto private property, wouldn't a search warrant have been needed? [/*]You are correct.

I am aware of one case where it was entered into evidence the cadaver dogs searching the outside of the house, but hitting on something inside. I believe it had something to do with the use of a utility right of way/easement.

tonyGricar

11-08-2007, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
The PSP did one for BJL, though I don't know what the did. A grand jury could find out (hint, hint).

UTR, I thought that there was the possibility, at least of search warrants being issued. They wouldn't necessarily have to be made public. [/*]I am not aware of any search warrants being issued. Received consent to search might be another matter.

tonyGricar

11-08-2007, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
I am rather curious whether it was the blue and silver truck that he owned that he was driving that evening, considering there was no blood stains or bullet holes in the truck. I wonder if it was possible he was driving the red one instead, and the other truck was sold after the 'supposed suicide'. Seems rather strange for there to be neither blood stains nor bullet holes present.
JMO [/*]I think the urban legends surrounding BJL's death continue to grow.

IIRC, I believe it was a red truck he had with him.

Cinderella

11-08-2007, 12:43 AM

J. J.,

Glad to see you tonight. Hope that you are doing well.

Question...What makes a person or a friend tell the truth? A lot of people anymore don't believe in God and they don't have to swear on a Bible anymore. BJL had a group of good friends who thought that Ray was picking on BJL.

I also hear that someone who gave JL an alibi stated to JL that he would never lie for him again.

You can't force a person to take a lie detector test which supposedly isn't 100% accurate.

People seem to be more willing to tell a private person something compared to telling LE. It doesn't mean that they are lying, they just don't want involved.

I am not saying that BJL, JL or any certain person harmed Ray, but in small towns people talk. It is not like Philadelphia. Yes sometimes wrong things are said, but a lot of times there is some truth into what is being said.

All that I know is that Ray deserved better than this. He deserves to be found, if that is possible. He deserves to be buried where he would want to be.

I feel that the more people that come out and say that they saw something would bring more people out. I am glad that Pete posted that. Someone knows something.

I bet if someone started questioning people using good old shoe leather work, that someone might start watching them and whoever did harm to Ray would start to get nervous. BTW, I don't feel that if BJL's did harm to Ray that he did it all by himself. He just might have been ordered to get rid of the body. As I feel that someone else ruled his life.

I hope that soon, we find the answers to what really happened.
Keep praying.

UndertheRadar

11-08-2007, 12:50 AM

NancynNC
Member

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: NC
Posts: 229

Here is some of what I found about the other guy that committed suicide and was found on the 17th.

Posted on Sun, Apr. 17, 2005
Police: Man accused in domestic case commits suicide
By Adam Smeltz

BOGGS TOWNSHIP -- A Howard man accused of attempted murder last year was found dead this morning, the victim of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, state police at Rockview said.

Billy Joe Leathers, 34, pleaded guilty in January to reckless endangerment, a charge stemming from a domestic-violence incident in September. He was not convicted of attempted murder, a charge filed in connection with the same incident.

Leathers served 17 days in jail and was ordered to pay a $250 fine.

He was found dead in his car at 1:23 a.m. today along South Eagle Valley Road, police said.

An investigation is continuing, but police said there's no indication that the suicide is connected to the disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gricar. Gricar, last seen Friday, remained missing this afternoon.

It would have had to be pretty fast work IMO to have a man found dead at 1:23 a.m., get search warrants, get dogs to the scene, and then arrive at a conclusion published probably within 12 hours that there was no indication that the suicide was connected to RG's disappearance. JMO.

Politigal

11-08-2007, 12:59 AM

Was it ever reported that they even got search warrants or used dogs there?

Perhaps they just took the word of his SO....

edited to add:

and wasn't BJL cremated just a couple days later?

Politigal

11-08-2007, 01:08 AM

I found my post from Sept -- BJL was autopsied and then cremated 4/20/05.

Very quick work indeed.

tonyGricar

11-08-2007, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
[/i]It would have had to be pretty fast work IMO to have a man found dead at 1:23 a.m., get search warrants, get dogs to the scene, and then arrive at a conclusion published probably within 12 hours that there was no indication that the suicide was connected to RG's disappearance. JMO. [/*]Not that it really matters, but I'm not sure that story ever ran in the print edition of the CDT. I believe it was actually a posting on Smeltz's CDT blog.

I am a bit surprised that you've never heard LE do a press conf or Q&A where they said, "At this time, we have no indication...". To me, without the PSP having evidence, any comment to the contrary would be irresponsible.

edited to add:
The PSP timeline/investigation lasted a week IIRC. I'd think it goes without saying that I was as interested in anyone on following up on that investigation. After that, they, and BPD, followed up on the infamous bar boasting tips that everyone, and no one, heard.

tonyGricar

11-08-2007, 01:36 AM

Pete the Prescient:

Q: Seems to me this is being 'swept under the rug'. Delays, excuses, denials, Refusals ...Makes one wonder? What do you think?
Anonymous, Burke VA 10/20/06

A: I don't believe anything is being "swept under the rug." What it looks like to me is that police have exhausted all leads and simply have nowhere to go at this point. No tips and no new leads have been called in to police since April. So where to police go from here? I still get question after question about whether the late Billy Joe Leathers could have been involved somehow. And police, time and time again, have insisted he was not. Perhaps this shows best that the investigation is at a standstill, these old rumors and long ago discredited theories resurfacing again. There's just nothing new to go on.
Pete Bosak 10/31/06

Politigal

11-08-2007, 01:50 AM

IMO, the timing of BJL's suicide with Gricar's disappearance was just coincidental.

True, there was a connection between Gricar and Leathers with the domestic violence case.

And reportedly, the mother of Leather's daughter is related to Patty Fornicola.

Other than those connections, I guess the rest is just rumor.

UndertheRadar

11-08-2007, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar

I am a bit surprised that you've never heard LE do a press conf or Q&A where they said, "At this time, we have no indication...". To me, without the PSP having evidence, any comment to the contrary would be irresponsible.

Of course I've heard such statements, all the time in ongoing investigations. And of course I understand the article says "the investigation is ongoing." My point was merely that it would have been quick work to get scent dogs and/or cadaver dogs in there with a warrant, with the article being put up within such a short time of BJL's actual death. Warrants take time, and getting dogs together takes time. Didn't appear to me there was enough time to have all that occur before the article publication.

tonyGricar

11-08-2007, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
Of course I've heard such statements, all the time in ongoing investigations. And of course I understand the article says "the investigation is ongoing." My point was merely that it would have been quick work to get scent dogs and/or cadaver dogs in there with a warrant, with the article being put up within such a short time of BJL's actual death. Warrants take time, and getting dogs together takes time. Didn't appear to me there was enough time to have all that occur before the article publication. [/*]Couldn't agree more.

Cloudbuster

11-09-2007, 06:13 AM

I have thought about the BJL connection all day and I tried to think how there could be a possible connection and I think it's possible there is one that just don't stand out. When I observe that BJL died sunday at 1:23 am it's within hours of him most likely learning saturday April 16th of Ray's disapearance and I would think he saw it on TV at the Milesburg Legion.

He was found dead in his car???? at 1:23 a.m. today along South Eagle Valley Road, police said. (if he had the red truck per TG then thats JL's truck).

An investigation is continuing, but police said there's no indication that the suicide is connected to the disappearance of District Attorney Ray Gricar. Gricar, last seen Friday, remained missing this afternoon ....as per CDT.

Okay we know no prints was found in the mini, no evidence there. If this was BJL I think there would be prints. MOO.

What we do have is a man within hours of seeing that RG disappeared then commits suicide at 1:23 am. That timing is important. What would make BJL within hours decide to do himself in?

Answer: Seeing Ray had disappeared. When he saw the news on TV and he could have said" I guarentee he will never try another case". Okay but he may not have nessarily said that at the bar. He could have said something to that effect to his wife Terry and what he was saying might have caused her to believe that he did Ray in when he might not have been coming accross clearly to her (alcohol coupled with panic) and she might be where the rumor orginated at and later on carried it to the bar ect. I base that on BJL showing up at her place at what time? and dies at 1:23 am when the bar was nearing closing time. Why then decide to do that?

What provoked him to even go to Terrys at that hour? I stepped in his shoes to see if it was possible that after hours of seeing the disappearance on TV what was going thru his mind? The big word is panic and inward fear. At first it would appear to him that RG was not coming back but he had time to ponder on this as to why RG was not coming back. He knew and figured out who had RG and after thinking about it he would know that Ray might have been made to TALK. Panic and fear swept over in this scenario. I think he knew who had Ray and it suddenly dawned on him that Ray would talk as to where he got his information from. Was BJL the source of information? When BJL went to court they need to see if BJL had spoke to Ray inside or after the hearing at all? I think that would have been a good time to give Ray the information on his dad and I believe names of people involved.

I don't think Ray would have given diddle crap about JL's arson and insurance fraud so I think BJL would of needed to tell Ray something more that would spark Rays interest. Something that also involved someone in gov, someone that Ray would know. I think Ray started looking into it and putting it together. BJL might have told him even what to look at. Ray did put a statement in the paper that there was no proof of a shooting in BJL's case.? BJL was angry with his wife and dad so telling Ray anything would be a releasing of anger on BJLs part.

Now BJL nows that those people don't mess around and he would have EVERY reason to believ that Ray gave up his name. He then panics. He don't go home where his dad is because how does he know they haven't arrived there yet or even how does he trust his dad? he would be a sitting duck at his dads residence. No he can't go to his mom's house because why put her in danger? Instead he shows up to terrys hoping to get her to help him to know what to do or that he just didn't want to be alone possibly was intenting to shoot himself and not wanting to be alone. He gets to Terrrys and she gets angry and he is trying to tell her what was going on but it wasn't sounding the way it was supposed to. He panics and shoots himself. I believe if someone else shot him they would NOT have left a witness (Terry) behind. I think BJL knew what was going on by just the fact that Ray disappeared. I feel the misfortune of his timly death was connected to Ray but just not the way everyone is thinking. I feel badly for him and his family!!!! Thats why I think there is no evidence and they ruled him out so quickly because it didn't seem to have any connection evidence speaking.

Now the key part is what did BJL know that he would have told Ray? We have 3 keywords to work with:
Arson
Fires
Insurance
work them and see where a connection is to Ray. Another angle is when BJL could have spoken to Ray.

Sorry I just think they looked at this the wrong way but can see why cause i think we all did.

Just a possible theory disclaimer.

J. J. in Phila

11-10-2007, 12:17 AM

One possibility, which would account for a "clean time line" would be BJL was not involved in a murder, but knew who was, and was killed to tie up a loose end.

It doesn't appear to be too much of a stretch, considering that BLJ had some "shady" connections.

And, it might be an unrelated event, the suicide of a troubled individual.

We are far from the point of saying that either BJL's death or RFG's disappearance was due to murder.

One thing that a grand jury could do is look at any connection.

J. J. in Phila

11-10-2007, 03:27 PM

LW, one thing we don't know is what the PSP time line shows. That's one of the many reasons I think there should be a grand jury.

It does however look like by 6:00 PM, he and the rest of the county could have found out that RFG was missing. The press conference was late Saturday afternoon and it's likely that radio at least, would have reported it.

Cloudbuster

11-11-2007, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

That is the BIG question.
If BJL was in the bar and the news at 11 p.m? announced RG's car had been found in Lewisburg, possibly something 'clicked' with BJL; something that caused him to think of TL.

Where was the gun he used to commit suicide located at the time he left the bar? In his vehicle, and what vehicle was it? Did someone at the bar see what he was driving that night?
OR did he leave the bar and go to TL's, where the gun may have been, to check to see if his gun might have been used? OR did he go to JL's, where he was living at the time, collect the weapon and then go back to TL's?

We need to know BJL's travels AFTER hearing the news, AFTER leaving the bar for more insight into whether BJL immediately had something come to mind that he then went to check out for himself to see if it might be true. IMO, until that is cleared up, I don't believe involvement can be eliminated with any degree of certainty.
JMO [/*]

LW of course you may be right. Im just trying to see why or how if at all this fits. I do believe there is a connection though. That connection involves the keywords that gotta be worked. Let me ask a question? Does anyone know if JL's gave BJL a part of the timeline of his whereabouts or was it his mom or Terrry or BJLs daughter? Also does anyone know if JL's place is close to a park? Also could any of the properties be near a park?
jmho

sherrijean981

11-12-2007, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

LW of course you may be right. Im just trying to see why or how if at all this fits. I do believe there is a connection though. That connection involves the keywords that gotta be worked. Let me ask a question? Does anyone know if JL's gave BJL a part of the timeline of his whereabouts or was it his mom or Terrry or BJLs daughter? Also does anyone know if JL's place is close to a park? Also could any of the properties be near a park?
jmho [/*]

CB, You pass it when you are traveling to camp. Not far from the truck stop we have talked about.

LW, that was a good link. We have been there for birthday parties/reunions in the last couple years, very nice park.

sherrijean981

11-12-2007, 01:17 AM

CB, Your mailbox is full - email.

Cinderella

11-12-2007, 03:17 AM

This is taken from my copy of the Centre Daily times. I don't have the date on the paper as I was recouperating and just tore it out to keep it. It states the following property transactions, the most recent released to the CDT, were recorded September 17. 2007, through September 21, 2007, in the office of the Centre County Recorder of Deeds.

Check the map out to see how close the water is to the property. Another thing that should be considered is that Dowdly Hole Road borders the water that flows to the Joseph Foster Sayers Dam. I will just call it the Howard Dam.

The Laptop and Hard drive could very well have been put into that water that would be in the J. Leather's backyard. Who is going to watch a neighbor go out back toward the water. That water area behind his house is pretty desolate. Not many boats that I know go up that far.

Here is a link as to what it looks like towards the Dowdy Hole Road:

http://www.nab.usace.army.mil/recreation/sayers.htm

These are the Leathers Real Estate Transactions:

Howard Township Listings for Leathers:

Joseph C. Leathers, and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, property located alosng state Route 150. $1

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, 350 W. Dowdy Hole Road, $1.

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheerler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, 548 W. Dowdy Hole Road, $1.

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, 554 W. Dowdy Hole Road, $1.

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, 350 Dowdy Hole Road, $1.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
*****I am wondering if Liberty Township contains the Little Marsh Creek properties?***************
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Liberty Township Listings for Leathers:

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Joseph C. Leathers, property located along state Route 1002. $1.

Unionville Borough Listings of Leathers:

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Mary L. Wheeler, 300 Walnut St. $1.

Jospeh C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Mary L Wheeler, 381 Walnut St. $1.

Joseph C. Leathers and Mary L. Wheeler, formerly known as Mary L. Leathers, to Mary L. Wheeler, 371 Walnut St. $1.

**Note to Logic, As I was searching to what township the Little Marsh Creek Road is in. I discovers a Hunters Run Road. It is not at the Howard Dam. Funny that I was going to tell you that the other day as I went to search for an address, Hunters Run Road came up. I considered it a sign.

Cloudbuster

11-12-2007, 03:45 AM

SJ I unclogged it lol.
Cind and LW thanks for the links. Its interesting that there seems to be alot of property. Hmm I thought JL is not employed? okay Im scratching my head lol. Im not going to get into the rumor end of it but.... sometimes things just don't look right to me. Most of the Dowdy are farmlands. Can you tell if Dowdy has a chapel or church on that street?

Cloudbuster

11-12-2007, 04:30 AM

There was a church nearby but it burned.
http://www.howardfire.com/Call-log.html

sherrijean981

11-12-2007, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Just reading the energy in the first photo from this link, I would definitely guess the cause of fire was arson, but the second photo with the 'heart' is just as interesting. I wonder how close that was to DHR property(s) and in what direction from where the photographer was standing.

http://www.howardfire.com/Church%20Fire,%201,January,2007.html

Also looking at the other fire on Jan. 1, seemingly two hours before that one, a 'red and white' building caught my attention, looking for those 'markers' in other areas to see if they show up all together in another area, pointing a direction.
JMO [/*]

Weren't there at least 4 fires that night supposedly by the same person/s?

Cinderella

11-12-2007, 07:34 PM

In the first picture if you look at the picture in a certain way, I can see a face of a person above the church. It blends in with the fire and smoke.

I see an orb by the door.

In the fourth picture across, it looks to be a man standing in the doorway with his head kind of hung down. He is wearing a white tee shirt. I think that this is an apparition as this man could not be standing in that doorway at that time.

I do believe that JL had some heart problems after BJL's death, but I am not 100% sure.

I also see the heart that you are talking about.

This church is very close to the JL house.

It was rumored that 4 kids went on a wild week-end spree setting fires. I think in the end, the car was wrecked and a girl died. One of the kids took their parents car and didn't tell them.

sherrijean981

11-12-2007, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
In the first picture if you look at the picture in a certain way, I can see a face of a person above the church. It blends in with the fire and smoke.

I see an orb by the door.

In the fourth picture across, it looks to be a man standing in the doorway with his head kind of hung down. He is wearing a white tee shirt. I think that this is an apparition as this man could not be standing in that doorway at that time.

I do believe that JL had some heart problems after BJL's death, but I am not 100% sure.

I also see the heart that you are talking about.

This church is very close to the JL house.

It was rumored that 4 kids went on a wild week-end spree setting fires. I think in the end, the car was wrecked and a girl died. One of the kids took their parents car and didn't tell them. [/*]

Is that who did it? I saw the article in the paper that they wrecked the car going up Rt 144 towards Snow Shoe, maybe 4:30/5:00 am? I questioned if they could have done it since they were in the area. I didn't see a follow up, missed that.

I was looking at Mapquest today while talking to CB. We were questioning the Dowdy Hill Rd and Nursery Rd intersection and where in the vicinity to JL's place the church would be. Also the township where ML had her properties? I thought the township would be near Unionville but no street by that name, but the one in Howard goes from Rt 150 through town.

I also saw the E Dowdy Rd has a dead end at the water, pick up later on another road. There is also what looks like a dirt road from JL end of Dowdy Rd that goes down to a water way. Where maybe a body or laptop could have been put.

It is rather odd to me all the church arson's in one night. I had wondered at first if JL could have been involved since he was notorious for arson and they were in his neighborhood, all easily accessible to him rather quickly, one by Curtin Rd to Milesburg.
jmo

Cinderella

11-12-2007, 10:49 PM

I don't think that they proved to set the fires. I only heard rumors at the beginning, but never heard anymore. There was also a fire at a person's large garage in Unionville. I thought that I heard that there were bottles containing some type of liquid to set off the fires and that they might have been thrown.

To set the record straight, Little Marsh Creek Road is in Boggs Township. I didn't see that address on the real estate transactions.

sherrijean981

11-13-2007, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
In the first picture if you look at the picture in a certain way, I can see a face of a person above the church. It blends in with the fire and smoke.

I see an orb by the door.

In the fourth picture across, it looks to be a man standing in the doorway with his head kind of hung down. He is wearing a white tee shirt. I think that this is an apparition as this man could not be standing in that doorway at that time.

I do believe that JL had some heart problems after BJL's death, but I am not 100% sure.

I also see the heart that you are talking about.

This church is very close to the JL house.

It was rumored that 4 kids went on a wild week-end spree setting fires. I think in the end, the car was wrecked and a girl died. One of the kids took their parents car and didn't tell them. [/*]

#1 Photo - I see a very large ball of white behind the church and on the right side of the fire truck you can see a sign or mailbox on the other side of the road.

#2 Photo - I see a horse head in the smoke, with the snout at the bottom of the tree - above lower back roof. I also see 4 or 5 orbs.

#3 Photo I see a light in the back yard, near shed?, that isn't seen in other photo's.

#4 Photo over I can see 2 faces in the smoke, above the left hand part of the church. One is in the blacker smoke area and the other is below it.

I wonder who's cars are sitting next to the church? If firemen you would think they would know not to park that close to the fire.

If someone is standing there holding their heart I don't see it, but it is probably because even a church isn't safe from vandals/arsons.

Cinderella

11-13-2007, 03:07 AM

SherriJean,

I also see the two faces on picture four. The one looks like it is the one on picture one abvove the church looking this way. Don't blow up the picture or you won't see it. The two faces appear to be talking. It looks to be a hand in front of the face on the left.

Look at the apparition of a man standing by the door where the orange is. You have to enlarge the picture. He is standing to the left of the thing that has the dots. His head is down, white tee shirt, belt, trousers. He looks as if he is walking out. But he can't be real.

I can't see your horse, but I did see a picture with a horse like rearing up. I saw its feet. It is in the 5th picture in the air close to the white above the church.

sherrijean981

11-13-2007, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
SherriJean,

I also see the two faces on picture four. The one looks like it is the one on picture one abvove the church looking this way. Don't blow up the picture or you won't see it. The two faces appear to be talking. It looks to be a hand in front of the face on the left.

Look at the apparition of a man standing by the door where the orange is. You have to enlarge the picture. He is standing to the left of the thing that has the dots. His head is down, white tee shirt, belt, trousers. He looks as if he is walking out. But he can't be real.

I can't see your horse, but I did see a picture with a horse like rearing up. I saw its feet. It is in the 5th picture in the air close to the white above the church. [/*]

I see the man, sleevelss tee shirt?

Cinderella

11-13-2007, 04:48 PM

I see the blue floating thing also.

If the man has an unbuttoned shirt on then it is just on his arms.

day2day

11-13-2007, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by logicworks
http://www.howardfire.com/Church%20Fire,%201,January,2007.html

If you go to photo #1, to the right of the firetruck,, there appears to be something there that is so absolutely out of place looking, I couldn't help but take a good look at it. It looks like a bed or a sofa, aqua blue cover, just floating there. When I zoom in on it, I can't make out which it is. Does it show up any clearer on anyone else's computer?

If you check out the license plate numbers in the photos, you will see Cloudbuster's 111 # showing up also on the one vehicle closest to the fire.

JMO [/*]

Could that be a street sign?

Cinderella

11-13-2007, 09:22 PM

day2day, I think that you are right. I think that is the street sign.

sherrijean981

11-14-2007, 12:55 AM

Politigal

11-15-2007, 12:09 PM

I had wondered what Sloane looked like -- the paper has a photo

http://centredaily.com/news/local/story/261875.html

J. J. in Phila

11-15-2007, 12:22 PM

I've known enough people that were booted to be able to see how that happened; he should have been more careful, however.

In looking at his photo, however, there is no way he could be mistaken for RFG.

UndertheRadar

11-15-2007, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

I'm not sure why the 2nd paragraph above was posted; when I posted the CDT article, it never entered my mind that SS could be mistaken for RG; it doesn't sound as though Pgal. thought that either.

Confused the heck out of me, too, GS, unless it's a reference to the CF sighting. It was said there was someone else at the courthouse who CF might have mistaken for RG.

But I never heard that the person CF might have confused with RG was Sloane, and the photos I saw in his campaign literature wouldn't lead me to think anyone would name Sloane as someone who looked at all similar to Gricar.

J. J. in Phila

11-15-2007, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

I'm not sure why the 2nd paragraph above was posted; when I posted the CDT article, it never entered my mind that SS could be mistaken for RG; it doesn't sound as though Pgal. thought that either.

Forgive me, but I have jumped ahead. The possibility has been raised that the witnesses mistook someone for RFG in Lewisburg. The photo eliminates the possibility that it was SS.

Even ruling someone out adds to the picture (no pun intended).

sherrijean981

01-19-2008, 04:10 PM

This is not from Pete Bosak's Q&A but from his Centre Daily Times Blog, "Happy Valley Cops". This link takes you to a story that connects a man named "*" or "Sweet" to at least 3 crimes in Centre County, including a murder, by witnesses naming him.

Was he in Centre County at the time of RG's disappearance? Was he involved in any of the drug busts that went down before or shortly after RG disappeared? Was MM hiding info from the defense team or anyone else for that matter in these cases? He was the man who worked for the AG during all the drug busts by the AG and Centre County DA. What does he know?

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=blog/2

Pete Bosak's blog
The "Sweet" Escape
Submitted by Pete Bosak on Mon, 2008-01-14 14:14.
I used to really like that song by Gwen Stefani, until some guy who isn't supposed to exist ruined it for me.

Now when I hear "The Sweet Escape," I wonder, did "Sweet" escape, or was Centre County District Attorney Michael Madeira correct at the murder trial of Andrew Rogers when he told the jury "Sweet does not exist."

(There are 2 pages with this story)

Serendipitous1

01-19-2008, 05:03 PM

Seems like the passionate cyber sleuths J. J., Cinderella and Politigal have a fan in PB:
http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/3715

J. J. in Phila

01-19-2008, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Seems like the passionate cyber sleuths J. J., Cinderella and Politigal have a fan in PB:
http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/3715 [/*]

He should have mentioned you.

Serendipitous1

01-19-2008, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

He should have mentioned you. [/*]He should have mentioned several other current posters (day2day and logicworks came immediately to mind). I am actually quite ecstatic that he did not mention me.

J. J. in Phila

01-19-2008, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
He should have mentioned several other current posters (day2day and logicworks came immediately to mind). I am actually quite ecstatic that he did not mention me. [/*]

Day cut back about 5 weeks ago, LW has been reduced since I came on, possibly before.

Late edit: Day is still posting. :) She was one the first posters however.

Serendipitous1

01-19-2008, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Day cut back about 5 weeks ago, LW has been reduced since I came on, possibly before. [/*]TG has not been exactly posting "feverishly" lately either...well not until you added the Walkaway Scenario Redux thread, and another "Friday" rolled around. TG might take exception to some of the objects of PB's apparent fascination though. We will have to wait and see.

But I love PB's invitation for others (and their friends), who have great interest in the case, to join this discussion. By all means...come on board. BTW...what is PB's username here...anybody know? PM me please. Then again, if PB thinks this is still CourtTV, maybe he does not visit much. JMOO

Serendipitous1

01-19-2008, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
TG has not been exactly posting "feverishly" lately either...well not until J. J. added the Walkaway Scenario Redux thread, and another "Friday" rolled around. TG might take exception to some of the objects of PB's apparent fascination though. We will have to wait and see.

But I love PB's invitation for others (and their friends), who have great interest in the case, to join this discussion. By all means...come on board. BTW...what is PB's username here...anybody know? PM me please. Then again, if PB thinks this is still CourtTV, maybe he does not visit much. JMOO Come to think of it, PB is (ostensively) seeking to solve this case...just like we are here. Come on in peteBosak! Join the discussion. Beats working for a living...or just donate some of your "spare" time. Then again, maybe alters (and hypocrisy) do abound..."feel good reporting" vs. "down and dirty, truly investigative reporting"! We will get back to you on that, Pete. JMOSO - just my own stupid opinion...for any newbies.

Politigal

01-19-2008, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Come to think of it, PB is (ostensively) seeking to solve this case...just like we are here. Come on in peteBosak! Join the discussion. Beats working for a living...or just donate some of your "spare" time. Then again, maybe alters (and hypocrisy) do abound..."feel good reporting" vs. "down and dirty, truly investigative reporting"! We will get back to you on that, Pete. JMOSO - just my own stupid opinion...for any newbies. [/*]

Pete has apparently definitely been here a while, to have read some of the criticisms....

I wonder why some feel they have to be so incognito on these boards....

tonyGricar

01-19-2008, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
I wonder why some feel they have to be so incognito on these boards.... [/*]I would imagine that there might be some form of a conflict of interest.

J. J. in Phila

01-19-2008, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I would imagine that there might be some form of a conflict of interest. [/*]

Frankly, I'm glad he's reading us. I hope LE is too.

day2day

01-22-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
He should have mentioned several other current posters (day2day and logicworks came immediately to mind). I am actually quite ecstatic that he did not mention me. [/*]

I am glad he didn't!! :D ! I am also happy that he is reading - i am pretty sure he knows how i feel about him..

WAIT!!! i will get right back to ya ....:read:

tonyGricar

01-22-2008, 05:09 PM

Were he able to post here, I'd question why he would bother. Not exactly the most welcoming of comments...

The Cheerleading School Marm

day2day

01-22-2008, 06:25 PM

Hang on just a sec..let us get out the fresh baked cookies AND the red carpet...:D

Serendipitous1

01-22-2008, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Were he able to post here, I'd question why he would bother. Not exactly the most welcoming of comments...

The Cheerleading School Marm I know...it is not PB's fault (a great guy, by the way). It is Hatchy-McClatchy's fault. MOO

Centre Daily Times reporter Pete Bosak [sometimes] answers your questions about the search for Ray Gricar. [However] We do not guarantee the accuracy, reliability or completeness of any information provided in our forum.

Q - ...Pete we need you to be the investagtive [sic] reporter! Can you do it? I mean really do it? Anonymous, Lock Haven, PA 12/14/06
A - I hope so. Pete Bosak 12/15/06

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

Serendipitous1

01-23-2008, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
Are you implying a California-based newspaper is putting words in PB's mouth? No...although I do think he is obliged to follow the owner's ideology, whatever that may be. What I am saying is that the Q&A thingy seems more like a one-way door. MOO

Cloudbuster

01-23-2008, 02:33 AM

J. J. in Phila

01-23-2008, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I know...it is not PB's fault (a great guy, by the way). It is Hatchy-McClatchy's fault. MOO

Centre Daily Times reporter Pete Bosak [sometimes] answers your questions about the search for Ray Gricar. [However] We do not guarantee the accuracy, reliability or completeness of any information provided in our forum.

Q - ...Pete we need you to be the investagtive [sic] reporter! Can you do it? I mean really do it? Anonymous, Lock Haven, PA 12/14/06
A - I hope so. Pete Bosak 12/15/06

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html [/*]

I think that one thing is that LE has decided to go into stealth mode. They are not willing to talk to anyone.

I think that I'd be a lot more comfortable if LE would be more forthcoming:

1. About what they looked at and ruled out.

2. Some of the evidence, such as where and when the cell phone calls were received or made on 4/14 and 4/15. Who made them and from where were they made.

That would eliminate a lot of speculation and may help eliminate the impression that there is a "big secret."

Serendipitous1

01-23-2008, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
roflmao I think I wrote that possibly.:biggrin: Oh realy? I would'nt never have guesed. Just messing with you Cb! ;)

day2day

01-23-2008, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I think that one thing is that LE has decided to go into stealth mode. They are not willing to talk to anyone.

I think that I'd be a lot more comfortable if LE would be more forthcoming:

1. About what they looked at and ruled out.

2. Some of the evidence, such as where and when the cell phone calls were received or made on 4/14 and 4/15. Who made them and from where were they made.

That would eliminate a lot of speculation and may help eliminate the impression that there is a "big secret." [/*]

I will NEVER understand the silence from LE. I am not real sure they want the truth revealed...
There sure was ALOT of noise when CB was present..but since then...can't get a word out of 'em...
I think they should at least release the cell phone records..THAT would be a step in the right direction..

Cloudbuster

01-23-2008, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Oh realy? I would'nt never have guesed. Just messing with you Cb! ;) [/*]

Snarky1 roflmao I guess I'd be in trouble if I needed to change screen names lol. It was Cind who secretly told me about my contractions roflmao. I guess I like just being myself and I never use spell checker in case you haven't noticed lol.

PB is okay I am glad he wrote that article and Im glad I wasn't included lol. The only thing about him that was strange for me was why go to the CDT from The Tribute of Johnstown? To me I didn't see the benefit unless he just wanted to relocate from Johnstown. Johnstown has always been a creepy place to me throughout this case and more so now.

JJ I doubt that LE will say anything about the secret I get frustrated but I think they have good reasons. Geez i can't believe i said that lol. YEP I THINK their is a SECRET :chicken:

J. J. in Phila

01-24-2008, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

Snarky1 roflmao I guess I'd be in trouble if I needed to change screen names lol. It was Cind who secretly told me about my contractions roflmao. I guess I like just being myself and I never use spell checker in case you haven't noticed lol.

PB is okay I am glad he wrote that article and Im glad I wasn't included lol. The only thing about him that was strange for me was why go to the CDT from The Tribute of Johnstown? To me I didn't see the benefit unless he just wanted to relocate from Johnstown. Johnstown has always been a creepy place to me throughout this case and more so now.

JJ I doubt that LE will say anything about the secret I get frustrated but I think they have good reasons. Geez i can't believe i said that lol. YEP I THINK their is a SECRET :chicken: [/*]

Johnstown is Altoona, but without the class. ;)

If given a choice to live in Centre County or live in Johnstown, I'd take Centre County. It's more vibrant; you have better opportunities to do things.

As for the "big secret," maybe, maybe not.

sherrijean981

01-24-2008, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

Snarky1 roflmao I guess I'd be in trouble if I needed to change screen names lol. It was Cind who secretly told me about my contractions roflmao. I guess I like just being myself and I never use spell checker in case you haven't noticed lol.

PB is okay I am glad he wrote that article and Im glad I wasn't included lol. The only thing about him that was strange for me was why go to the CDT from The Tribute of Johnstown? To me I didn't see the benefit unless he just wanted to relocate from Johnstown. Johnstown has always been a creepy place to me throughout this case and more so now.

JJ I doubt that LE will say anything about the secret I get frustrated but I think they have good reasons. Geez i can't believe i said that lol. YEP I THINK their is a SECRET :chicken: [/*]

Are you still up CB? I thought you would be zonked out by now. :) How are you feeling?

Politigal

01-24-2008, 02:03 AM

PB has answered another question...

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=1

Cloudbuster

01-24-2008, 02:41 AM

SJ feeling GREAT and up real late lol. :santa:

J. J. in Phila

01-24-2008, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
PB has answered another question...

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=1 [/*]

I think the last line is telling:

"Suicide though, for me, seems less and less likely as no body ever surfaced."

After the next dry spell, the odds on suicide will probably drop, if no body is found.

Every time we here about someone drowning in the Susquehanna, a body eventually turns up, usually in several months.

Cloudbuster

01-24-2008, 02:55 AM

They would have found him if he was in the river. He is no suicide. :cuss: This case is frustrating and not hard if anyone was really listening.

sherrijean981

01-24-2008, 03:06 AM

I have been reading a lot of different news sites tonight and I think the whole world is going to he_ _ !! I heard one murder, arson, suicide, assault, robbery, drive-by, accident after another all across the USA. What is going on?

And one site shows bodies turning up all over the place, different states, in water, in the woods, in a gravel pit, in a lake, in a burn barrel. Now that wasn't in one day but over some weeks. It is darn scarey!

Cloudbuster

01-24-2008, 03:19 AM

I agree SJ the world is feeled with sins as high as heaven itself. You just have to give yourself some positive feedback everyday like affirmations. I like my fortune cookie ones roflmao. Now here is a rose for :rose:

Laws

01-24-2008, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
PB has answered another question...

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=1 [/*]

Thank you for bringing this over Pgal.

From all that I have read on this case I can not comprehend that Ray Gricar had any reason to disappear or do himself harm, that he was a man of principle, took responsibility seriously & administrered fiduciary responsibility in a professional manner.

I actually am guessing that he would fit into the definition of a workaholic, who may have had a hard time after hours removing thoughts of his work, which makes it difficult on personal relationships, but that is a guess by someone who never met the man, but suffers from the syndrome & appreciates the problems that it brings into relationships, like the 1/2 listening or 1/2 watching & the person present feeling not paid enough attention to.

J. J. in Phila

01-24-2008, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Laws

I actually am guessing that he would fit into the definition of a workaholic, who may have had a hard time after hours removing thoughts of his work, which makes it difficult on personal relationships, but that is a guess by someone who never met the man, but suffers from the syndrome & appreciates the problems that it brings into relationships, like the 1/2 listening or 1/2 watching & the person present feeling not paid enough attention to. [/*]

He was planning to retire and he took the day before off.

Laws

01-24-2008, 09:42 PM

In answer to your response:

I AM a workaholic, I have not worked for compensation for 4 years, have worked some projects for some who I care for & resorted right back to the same patterns, whether compensated or not that is the pattern & am sure that when I resume working again the same will occur. Does that mean that I never took a day off? NO, but it does mean that I can watch a full movie & only really remember watching 1/2, same with conversations, I am there, am participating but sometimes my mind becomes preoccupied, sometimes eyes indicate to those I am with & sometimes they don't. It's is hard on those that I have been close with, they feel unimportant at times, although it really doesn't indicate that at all. Takes a really strong personality free of paranoia & comfortable in their skin to deal with this type of personality. Just saying.

Being a workaholic doesn't mean working 24/7, but does indicate an inclination of focus that is pretty much always there.

Cinderella

01-24-2008, 10:18 PM

Nice to see you back. :) Nice to be back myself.

Cinderella

01-24-2008, 11:13 PM

LAWS,

If someone loves you for you then your problem really shouldn't bother them, they should know that you can't help it. I have seen a lot and I would not be ashamed of how someone looked or couldn't help. It might actually bother you more than it does the other person.

Laws

01-24-2008, 11:36 PM

Hi Cinderella, nice to see you back, me I never left, but just wasn't posting.

I understand what you are saying & I would be a good match for another workaholic for wouldn't take it personal as you reference but for those that don't have that fire in their gut they can take it personal & feel rejected or less important.

We had some great times & made some great memories, just weren't "soul mates".

Believe me changing was never under consideration. I accept myself for who I am & apologize to nobody for it for it is not on purpose that I wasn't their "soul mate" nor them mine but we did have a lot of good times & made great memories. I have been lucky in very many ways.

LOL, guess passion is at the top of my necessity list for most issues, when it comes right down to it.

Cinderella

01-25-2008, 01:24 AM

You never know when you least expect it........

Cinderella

01-25-2008, 01:34 AM

Maybe someone can help me. Is there any place to look to find out people who were found guilty of a crime and sentenced to a mental facility for a long amount of time? Someone that Ray prosecuted around 20 years ago?

Politigal

01-25-2008, 09:27 PM

Bosak's update

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=1

Cinderella

01-25-2008, 09:37 PM

Thanks for the post and the laugh, Pgal. :santa:

Like I said before if you want the famous reporter to answer your questions, you have to treat him right and say nice things about him. I only asked the question in November. OOPS, Sorry PB :biggrin:

J. J. in Phila

01-26-2008, 12:55 AM

I think we all have to remember some things about PB:

1. Unlike me, he has a real job and RFG is not the only crime story in Centre County.

2. He doesn't report rumors, only things that can be confirmed. (We've all heard rumors, or jumped to conclusions that were wrong.)

3. He doesn't report the dead ends he has looked into. There is more of that than I thought.

4. He's tried talking to LE, but they have not been talking and he's found out a few things that they have not told him in the past. I wish him the best of luck in his interview of Rickard.

I'd like to see LE be more open. It might cut down on the speculation.

Cinderella

01-26-2008, 01:04 AM

Rickard has been there from the very beginning. What makes you think that he will be more open? He is under the same boss.
If people had a little more clues, we might be able to solve this case.

Cinderella

01-26-2008, 01:08 AM

They have never put out a sketch of the mystery woman. We don't know where he was at in Huntingdon. Stories have changed as to the morning that he supposedly disappeared. Cell phone records. Why was he acting different in the days prior to his disappearance. Did he go missing Thursday night. Is LE willing to listen to people that their stories don't fit into their timeline. Those are just some examples.

Cloudbuster

01-26-2008, 01:13 AM

JJ I agree with you on your above post. Speaking of rumors I heard a new one today about this case and wonder if any of it's true. It was said from someone up that way at a boat show. It was rumored that they thought RG was in France . It was rumored he knew a person from there. It was also rumored that RG went thru alot in the courthouse with alot of flack. Just another rumor I suppose to add to my pile of heard it's lol. I don't believe it though. :rolleyes:

J. J. in Phila

01-26-2008, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
They have never put out a sketch of the mystery woman. We don't know where he was at in Huntingdon. Stories have changed as to the morning that he supposedly disappeared. Cell phone records. Why was he acting different in the days prior to his disappearance. Did he go missing Thursday night. Is LE willing to listen to people that their stories don't fit into their timeline. Those are just some examples. [/*]

The witnesses might not have been able to provide one.

Rickard is now in charge, he wasn't before, and it might cut down of these ridiculous Internet speculations (mine included). Humph! Yes, I'm still a curmudgeon.

Cinderella

01-26-2008, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ I agree with you on your above post. Speaking of rumors I heard a new one today about this case and wonder if any of it's true. It was said from someone up that way at a boat show. It was rumored that they thought RG was in France . It was rumored he knew a person from there. It was also rumored that RG went thru alot in the courthouse with alot of flack. Just another rumor I suppose to add to my pile of heard it's lol. I don't believe it though. :rolleyes: [/*]

I can believe the flack. If you go to the CDT archives, you will see how he had to fight many times for things that he wanted. The District Magistrates seemed like they weren't helping matters. One can see that very clearly. EX Case of the orthodontist that went through a stop sign and hit another vehicle killing someone. His defense is that he didn't see the stop sign. Ray probably after a good year of trying to do something with this man, dropped it because something in the law changed. The district magistrates were acting like they were the boss.

Cinderella

01-26-2008, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

The witnesses might not have been able to provide one.

Rickard is now in charge, he wasn't before, and it might cut down of these ridiculous Internet speculations (mine included). Humph! Yes, I'm still a curmudgeon. [/*]

No MM said on the radio show that they didn't have any sketch artists. He stated that on WBLF radio.

Some people NEVER change.

But what about the ghosts walking on the water and in the back seat at Bald Eagle State Park. Ryan from the paranormal site will have to get down there.

Needed to add. :chicken:

Cloudbuster

01-26-2008, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

No MM said on the radio show that they didn't have any sketch artists. He stated that on WBLF radio.

Some people NEVER change.

But what about the ghosts walking on the water and in the back seat at Bald Eagle State Park. Ryan from the paranormal site will have to get down there.

Needed to add. :chicken: [/*]

Ryan might check it out Cind as long as it's not a conflict of interests. When I spoke with Ryan moons ago about a haunting he said he couldn't help me cause CBaron was doing RG"s case and she belongs with Penn State Paranormal team (one of their own) something to that effect. So I emailed CBaron and she was nice and sent me a link to her site but said she can't talk about this case with me and I told her I wasn't trying to ask her about the case ect long story. Anyways Ryan is very nice! CBaron is also nice. I wonder if Ryan would help now being CBaron is not doing the case?:shrug:

Cinderella

01-26-2008, 01:38 AM

Well I boated and fished at the park during the day and night for a long time and never saw any ghosts. Thank God, I don't think that I could handle it. :chicken:

sherrijean981

01-26-2008, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

Ryan might check it out Cind as long as it's not a conflict of interests. When I spoke with Ryan moons ago about a haunting he said he couldn't help me cause CBaron was doing RG"s case and she belongs with Penn State Paranormal team (one of their own) something to that effect. So I emailed CBaron and she was nice and sent me a link to her site but said she can't talk about this case with me and I told her I wasn't trying to ask her about the case ect long story. Anyways Ryan is very nice! CBaron is also nice. I wonder if Ryan would help now being CBaron is not doing the case?:shrug: [/*]

CB, what did you think of the link I sent? I read your post that you wrote to them. Good, maybe someone there can help you.

Cindi maybe only certain people can see the ghosts? Sort of like CB who is receptive to things. I think it would be kind of interesting to see one, but only if others were with me.

Cinderella

01-26-2008, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

CB, what did you think of the link I sent? I read your post that you wrote to them. Good, maybe someone there can help you.

Cindi maybe only certain people can see the ghosts? Sort of like CB who is receptive to things. I think it would be kind of interesting to see one, but only if others were with me. [/*]

Well I hope that I am not the one with you if you see one.

My sister always has weird things happen to her. She had to put her old dog to sleep about 1 month ago. She told me when she opened her house door a couple of days ago, she heard the dogs collar and tags rattling. She told her husband and he said you couldn't have because I told the vet to keep the collar and tags. So one never knows.

sherrijean981

01-26-2008, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella

Well I hope that I am not the one with you if you see one.

My sister always has weird things happen to her. She had to put her old dog to sleep about 1 month ago. She told me when she opened her house door a couple of days ago, she heard the dogs collar and tags rattling. She told her husband and he said you couldn't have because I told the vet to keep the collar and tags. So one never knows. [/*]

It's funny you are talking about an incident with a dog.
My granddaughter had a Shih tzu (sp?) and when she moved she took the dog to her dad's with her. Her other Grandmother told me the dad doesn't have the dog anymore but wouldn't go into what happened to her.

This morning while lying in bed I felt the weight of her lie down beside me. I looked but nothing there. I fell back asleep. Then I heard my car keys rattle in the livingroom. The weight of the dog, now jumped over me, sat there a second and then moved off the bed. I had to get up and go to the livingroom and see if there was someone there or a dog. Honestly it was so real, that I had to check each time I felt the weight on the bed. She used to do that when I was going somewhere and rattled my keys. She would sit up and tilt her head and then jump off whatever she was lying, then sitting on. I was so sad that she wasn't really there. I miss her a lot!

Oh, I wouldn't go out on a boat looking for a ghost. The comment of one walking on water didn't seem real but the one of someone seeing one while on the beach did. It would be interesting to sit there some evening (with someone) and see what would happen. If there are remains being found at the lake, it very well could be a spirit of someone who is not at piece any more, if their grave has been moved and then flooded. You just never know!

J. J. in Phila

01-26-2008, 02:27 AM

The only ghosts I've seen tend to show up and hand me money. They are just annoying, not scary.

Cind, MM isn't running the investigation.

sherrijean981

01-26-2008, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
The only ghosts I've seen tend to show up and hand me money. They are just annoying, not scary.

Cind, MM isn't running the investigation. [/*]

What kind of ghosts hand out money? Send some my way if it isn't illegal. :)

Cinderella

01-26-2008, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
The only ghosts I've seen tend to show up and hand me money. They are just annoying, not scary.

Cind, MM isn't running the investigation. [/*]

I hope not. Shawn Weaver is. Same old, same old.

It must be the ghost that has been emptying my pockets, send it back to me. :punch:

Cinderella

01-26-2008, 02:46 AM

That ghosts name must be like Robin Hood, robbing the poor and giving to J. J. :rolleyes:

J. J. in Phila

01-26-2008, 03:17 AM

Cinderella

01-26-2008, 03:19 AM

I heard that he was in Peru. He might be in Slovenia.

J. J. in Phila

01-26-2008, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

What? If MM isn't running the investigation, does that mean whomever is can push the investigation higher as many would like to see done? [/*]

I've pointed this out before. The DA doesn't "investigate" as such.

J. J. in Phila

01-26-2008, 11:52 PM

Last thing UTR said was that she was having computer problems.

J. J. in Phila

01-27-2008, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I must have missed that post and can't seem to find it under search.
Last thing I see is an ongoing argument about the Gamble Mill.
Could you please point me to that last post you are talking about? [/*]

I remember reading it. It was just a passing comment about her being off for a while, but that was a month ago. There wasn't anything "heated" at the time involving her.

IIRC, she had mentioned it, perhaps several days before she stopped posting.

sherrijean981

01-27-2008, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I remember reading it. It was just a passing comment about her being off for a while, but that was a month ago. There wasn't anything "heated" at the time involving her.

IIRC, she had mentioned it, perhaps several days before she stopped posting. [/*]

I remember it also.

gstickley

01-27-2008, 07:24 PM

Does not the DA also have the "power" to request a special grand jury?

J. J. in Phila

01-27-2008, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Are you saying LE hasn't presented this case to the DA and the DA did not 'investigate' the findings and determine the path this case would take? There should have been some appointees or county Detectives brought in on the case at that time, at the very least.

I am saying that the DA's office does not gather evidence or order LE to gather evidence.

Secondly, the duties of a PA County DA.......
The district attorney serves as the *chief law enforcement officer*in each county and has the authority to preserve the peace and suppress crime when the local authorities cannot do so. This officer may*** appoint assistants and county detectives to help with investigations*** and prosecutions.
(Maybe you can provide us with some names here of who has been appointed or called in to assist in this investigation county-wise.)

Again the DA's office is not an investigating branch, nor do the make arrests. I knew the chief detective for Cambria County a few yesrs ago. Her job was basically to get reports from the local police departments.

Who is LE gathering the evidence for if not for the DA, whose responsibility it is then to oversee all of the evidence presented, and either call for more evidence or determine whether there is sufficient evidence to bring charges against someone?
In this case, we should have heard words like county Detective or appointee before we ever heard ONE word about stones overturned.
JMO [/*]

The local and state police, and any federal agency that would be assisting.

In answer to GStickley's question, yes, the DA can impanel a grand jury, which could subpoena evidence.

day2day

01-27-2008, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
Does not the DA also have the "power" to request a special grand jury? [/*]

I believe you are right gs. Which brings me right back to my frustration. I don't see how pf can enter that office day in and day out KNOWING MM has the power to move this case forward ...
on the other hand ..i cant imagine having an employees so vanish and NOT do all that was in my power to find the truth...:cuss:

I would rather starve...
jmo as usual...

J. J. in Phila

01-27-2008, 08:05 PM

Cinderella

01-27-2008, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by day2day

I believe you are right gs. Which brings me right back to my frustration. I don't see how pf can enter that office day in and day out KNOWING MM has the power to move this case forward ...
on the other hand ..i cant imagine having an employees so vanish and NOT do all that was in my power to find the truth...:cuss:

I would rather starve...
jmo as usual... [/*]

I feel the same way day. When my first husband died, I couldn't even go to the places that we used to go. I am wondering how PF does it? I would be starring at the DA office door and so depressed that I would not be able to stay there.

gstickley

01-27-2008, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

<snip>

Who is LE gathering the evidence for if not for the DA, whose responsibility it is then to oversee all of the evidence presented, and either call for more evidence or determine whether there is sufficient evidence to bring charges against someone?

<snip>
JMO [/*]

LW, LE gathers evidence & information for the DA, whose responsibility is to oversee the evidence & information presented, and either call for more evidence or determine whether there is sufficient evidence to bring charges against someone.

Since the Bellefonte PD is supposedly in charge of this investigation, Bellefonte PD (or any other police agency involved) should have turned over everything to the DA. Since Bellefonte PD is supposedly in charge of this investigation, any/all evidence/information gathered by other LE should have turned same over to Bellefonte PD. In normal areas, the DA knows everything the LE does. However . . . we're talkin' Happy Valley here!

After 2.75 yrs. of nothing, you'd think the DA would request a special grand jury be convened. You'd think the "evidence" or lack thereof would be presented to the special grand jury. If the special grand jury found nothing hinky about this case, then I guess you might be able to say the famous "no stone has been left unturned".

day2day

01-27-2008, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

I feel the same way day. When my first husband died, I couldn't even go to the places that we used to go. I am wondering how PF does it? I would be starring at the DA office door and so depressed that I would not be able to stay there. [/*]

I don't know how she does it either cind. I would rather work at mcdonald's than to have to work for someone who could care so little about me or my missing so.

:(

day2day

01-27-2008, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I am saying that the DA's office does not gather evidence or order LE to gather evidence.

Again the DA's office is not an investigating branch, nor do the make arrests. I knew the chief detective for Cambria County a few yesrs ago. Her job was basically to get reports from the local police departments.

The local and state police, and any federal agency that would be assisting.

In answer to GStickley's question, yes, the DA can impanel a grand jury, which could subpoena evidence. [/*]

So the million dollar question here is ..why hasn't he? :shrug:

J. J. in Phila

01-27-2008, 08:54 PM

I've yet to hear any poster say, "A grand jury is a dumb idea."

I think it makes sense.

Politigal

01-27-2008, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by day2day

So the million dollar question here is ..why hasn't he? :shrug: [/*]

IMO, simply because they don't have any evidence, and they missed crucial opportunities to get evidence from the get-go.

J. J. in Phila

01-27-2008, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

IMO, simply because they don't have any evidence, and they missed crucial opportunities to get evidence from the get-go. [/*]

There is evidence, just not evidence that a crime has been committed. To impanel a grand jury, you do not need to prove that a crime took place, only that there might have been a crime.

Cinderella

01-27-2008, 09:36 PM

Since we are going to point the finger at others, maybe MM did him in. Maybe that is why he is not calling. He is letting people talk rumors about PF. How would he like it if rumors circulated that he was involved?

Was MM at the DA's office Thursday night? What is the timeline of what he was doing? There is a motive there. Maybe Ray decided not to endorse him.

day2day

01-27-2008, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

IMO, simply because they don't have any evidence, and they missed crucial opportunities to get evidence from the get-go. [/*]

Right pgal. The very reason we are still here almost three years later. I still want to know how a person can drive a car and only leave three fingerprints. I know it doesn't happen in my car..lol!
imo of course...

J. J. in Phila

01-27-2008, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Since we are going to point the finger at others, maybe MM did him in. Maybe that is why he is not calling. He is letting people talk rumors about PF. How would he like it if rumors circulated that he was involved?

Was MM at the DA's office Thursday night? What is the timeline of what he was doing? There is a motive there. Maybe Ray decided not to endorse him. [/*]

MM didn't work there at the time, and his presence on the tape would have been noted.

RFG had already endorsed MM, so it's very unlikely it would have been taken back.

Cinderella

01-27-2008, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

MM didn't work there at the time, and his presence on the tape would have been noted.

RFG had already endorsed MM, so it's very unlikely it would have been taken back. [/*]

Ray had somewhat endorsed MM. Oh that is right MM came down from the Attorney General's Office, a place that we would like him to contact. Maybe he doesn't know the number. :flamemad:

Cloudbuster

01-27-2008, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

CB, what did you think of the link I sent? I read your post that you wrote to them. Good, maybe someone there can help you.

Cindi maybe only certain people can see the ghosts? Sort of like CB who is receptive to things. I think it would be kind of interesting to see one, but only if others were with me. [/*]

SJ I loved the link it was informative! I got a response and Im in the emailing response mode. I will keep ya updated. I don't want to see no ghost lol too scary! I like when they stay on photo paper and VHS tapes lol. I can handle it much smoother that way. I think my ghost knows this about me though. I can't believe Im saying that and ya I know what that sounds like lol. I can also handle syncroncities at a easier pace just had one last night. I knew way before I even went into the Olive Garden that a old friend of mine would be working and was about to slip me a note with her phone number on it. She did and it read "if you want a friend back call 333-333-3333." weird it really happened.:chicken:

sherrijean981

01-28-2008, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

SJ I loved the link it was informative! I got a response and Im in the emailing response mode. I will keep ya updated. I don't want to see no ghost lol too scary! I like when they stay on photo paper and VHS tapes lol. I can handle it much smoother that way. I think my ghost knows this about me though. I can't believe Im saying that and ya I know what that sounds like lol. I can also handle syncroncities at a easier pace just had one last night. I knew way before I even went into the Olive Garden that a old friend of mine would be working and was about to slip me a note with her phone number on it. She did and it read "if you want a friend back call 333-333-3333." weird it really happened.:chicken: [/*]

CB I went to Lewisburg/Milton and took more photo's. I parked in front of Packwood Museum, I think it was the 2nd parking spot off Rt 45 onto Water St. I stood in one spot and slowing made a circle taking photo's of everything I saw in that circle. Which included 2 buildings on Rt 45/ Market St (I think it is called). Both buildings are the corner buildings on Water St. I got the Packwood Museum, and if the employee was at the window watching a man who looked like RG getting out of that Mini Cooper, she had a very good view, of the car, the man and the park bench he would have sat in near the car. She very well could be the witness who is correct. Also the church I told you I could see the steeple from behind the Packwood Museum is actually on Market St and most of the back block. When going down the back of it, it was so close to the street I could not get photo's. We didn't go back the front street to get the photo, but it didn't look like any connecting chapel. The church was HUGE.

I went down Rt 405 through Milton to get to Old Rt 15. I forgot about getting mileage to the warehouse TOL said about, thinking it was way out. It wasn't. My hubby said it could have been 1.5 or a little more from the intersection to the warehouse. I also did the same thing at the church as I did on Water ST. Took photos from all angles of the church, front and back, sides and no chapel out side. I got more photo's of the warehouse but did not go in there lot. Mine were taken from the road. I did see a lot of piles of dirt or stone at the edges of the parking lots, and there is a field behind the parking lot separated by trees. River Rd would have been on the other side of the field. I also got photos of a business across the road, has a lot of dirt being dug up.

There was a house above the highway and across the road from the warehouse. I wonder if LE would have questioned them if that is where they went with CB? Might have seen something from up there.

I will try and get them emailed this week. I have my ggrandson until Friday so won't be on much.

J. J. in Phila

01-28-2008, 12:52 AM

As far as know, being investigated by a grand jury does not immunize someone from further prosecution.

The only example I can think of is out of state; there was a grand jury in the O.J. Simpson murder case. That didn't prevent the DA from filing.

Information on the Carter case is here:

http://www.city-journal.org/article01.php?aid=1590

Basically, she was given immunity for what she said in the grand jury, not what she did outside of the grand jury. It was similar to the Oliver North testimony. They could not use what he testified to while he was given immunity.

If John Doe was taken into a grand jury, was granted immunity (two different things), and said, "I killed Ray Gricar," that statement couldn't be used. If they found the body with a knife sticking in it, and found John Does DNA on it, that DNA evidence could be used. At least that's my understanding of it.

My understanding is that a witness can say, to a grand jury, "I refuse to answer on the ground that it might tend to incriminate me." The prosecutor can offer that immunity, effectively saying, "Okay, I won't prosecute you, so you can't claim that what you testify about will incriminate you." He wouldn't have to offer immunity.

That's my basic understanding and I'll let a real lawyer clean it up.

J. J. in Phila

01-28-2008, 01:13 AM

Here is the material from the PA AG's Office:

If a prosecutor believes that a subpoenaed witness is likely to make a legitimate claim that his testimony will tend to incriminate himself, the prosecutor may apply to the supervising judge of the grand jury for an order of immunity. Such an order gives the witness protection from having his testimony before the grand jury used against himself in a later court proceeding.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=207

I would encourage all posters to read the site in full.

J. J. in Phila

01-28-2008, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

You forgot to add 'in the primary election'.

RG had every opportunity to say in the 'general election' when MJ specifically asked him that question in the interview and he didn't. He had a second chance to correct it, if he wanted to, when he called MJ the next day to correct the number of years he had been a DA. He didn't correct it, obviously because it didn't need corrected.
JMO [/*]

I didn't forget. I was referring to Cind's question about taking that endorsement back.

There was no endorsement for the general and RFG could have said something along the lines of "They would both do a fine job, if elected." Both had primary opposition so that would have helped JKA.

Cinderella

01-28-2008, 02:02 AM

IIRC, Ray said something along the lines that he would like to make an endorsement closer to the voting time. If could have just come out and said my choice is Michael Madeira.

J. J. in Phila

01-28-2008, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
IIRC, Ray said something along the lines that he would like to make an endorsement closer to the voting time. If could have just come out and said my choice is Michael Madeira. [/*]

He didn't know if MM would win the primary, or JKA for that matter. Each had multiple candidates.

Cloudbuster

01-28-2008, 02:17 AM

SJ THX!!! Anxiously awaiting photo's of the church. The chapel is not a big deal. The word chapel I think is used to convey meaning to something churchlike or religious in nature. In this case we have a church and a connecting church word in the street that connects. (Tabernakle Rd).

Politigal

01-28-2008, 02:31 PM

Bosak update

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=1

Politigal

01-29-2008, 01:46 AM

We've discussed the likelihood that Bosak is reading here...

I wonder about others --

like Gricar's co-workers (besides JKA,) his neighbors, his doctor who provided medical records to police, any of the search and rescue team, Bennett or other Lewisburg people, etc....:shrug:

Cinderella

01-30-2008, 09:40 PM

I wonder what type of music that Ray liked. I am wondering who his favorite singers were?

Did Ray like to play any games other than Trivial Pursuit? Did he play cards? Did he play Bridge? Of course I know that he didn't play poker for money. :)

Serendipitous1

01-30-2008, 09:40 PM

There is movement in the legislature toward a revamped open-records law. The current draft, approved unanimously by the Senate, would make the law retroactive.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2008/01/senate_passes_open_records_leg.html

In effect, the bill would require all records to be considered public unless specifically exempted.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20080130_State_Senate_passes_open_records_bill__go es_to_the_House_.html

I had hoped the bill (SB 1) would loosen the strangle hold on (not exempt) at least some of the information in noncriminal investigations. But it appears that would not be the case.
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2007&sessInd=0&billBody=S&billTyp=*&billNbr=0001&pn=1721

MOO - there does not appear to be even any (direct) leverage provided in the bill which would be of any benefit to the public in RG's case. We would continue at the mercy of the MM and SW types. But, hey, we would be able to get Joe Pa's salary history. What a world we live in!

Cinderella

01-30-2008, 09:46 PM

S1, RIGHT ON! YOU ROCK!

Serendipitous1

01-30-2008, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
S1, RIGHT ON! YOU ROCK! [/*]Thanks Cinderella. I note your new-found fascination with color. Laws/Laws100 had a sort of "blue" period too. MOO

Cinderella

01-30-2008, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Thanks Cinderella. I note your new-found fascination with color. Laws/Laws100 had a sort of "blue" period too. MOO [/*]

I AM BLUE OVER THIS CASE.

Serendipitous1

01-30-2008, 10:56 PM

Sorry for the non-working links. You can (hopefully) go here:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/session.cfm

...and insert the bill number (SB 1) to see the currently proposed legislation, etc.

Politigal

02-03-2008, 01:47 AM

off topic but here's my next question for Bosak

I'm sure he'll have to get back to me on it though...:tongue:

Does RG's "friend" Jim Bryant wear a hairpiece?

http://www.bryant-cantorna.com/

day2day

02-03-2008, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
off topic but here's my next question for Bosak

I'm sure he'll have to get back to me on it though...:tongue:

Does RG's "friend" Jim Bryant wear a hairpiece?

http://www.bryant-cantorna.com/ [/*]

my guess-yeppers!! :)...jmo and i bet you are right..he will have to get back to ya...:read:

sherrijean981

02-07-2008, 12:58 PM

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

Most Recent Questions & Answers

QPete, What is your e-mail address?
Cinderella 2/01/08
AIt's pbosak@centredaily.com. I welcome e-mails from everyone interested in the disappearance.
Pete Bosak 2/04/08

QWhy did Mr. Gricar endorse Michael Madeira in the primary race for District Attorney, over his good friend Steve Sloane, who (last year) unsuccessfully ran for judge?
Anonymous 1/28/08
ASteve wasn't running for district attorney.
Pete Bosak 1/31/08

QPete: I understand Ray hasn't touched the funds he had (checking, etc). Has anyone checked new applicants for welfare, assisted living, etc. in both the U.S. and Canada within six months of the disappearance that would match his age, description? He couldn't live long without funds without outside help.
Joe, Charleston, SC 1/24/08
AI'm not so sure it's possible to check those enormous volumes of numbers. And I'm not sure that would even help. If you subscribe to the walk-away theory, that Gricar intentionally disappeared to start a new life somewhere else, he would have planned this for a long time. Perhaps he was funneling off money for years and had it stashed away. Gricar was a prosecutor for 30 years and would have known the ins and outs of of how to get a new identity, with a new Social Security number and all. Everyone who knew the man tells me Gricar was "brilliant" and could have pulled this off. Also, if you believe he walked away intentionally, just look at how he did it. If it was intentional, it was masterfully done, entwining three police jurisdictions and laying out a baffling puzzle that appears to make no sense no matter the perspective at which you look at it. All three theories, suicide, murder and intentional disappearance all can be argued.
Pete Bosak 1/28/08

J. J. in Phila

02-07-2008, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

AI'm not so sure it's possible to check those enormous volumes of numbers. And I'm not sure that would even help. If you subscribe to the walk-away theory, that Gricar intentionally disappeared to start a new life somewhere else, he would have planned this for a long time. Perhaps he was funneling off money for years and had it stashed away. Gricar was a prosecutor for 30 years and would have known the ins and outs of of how to get a new identity, with a new Social Security number and all. Everyone who knew the man tells me Gricar was "brilliant" and could have pulled this off. Also, if you believe he walked away intentionally, just look at how he did it. If it was intentional, it was masterfully done, entwining three police jurisdictions and laying out a baffling puzzle that appears to make no sense no matter the perspective at which you look at it. All three theories, suicide, murder and intentional disappearance all can be argued.
Pete Bosak 1/28/08

If this was a walkaway, and I've yet to have any theory that reaches 50% likely, it would have been long planned. There may be evidence of that planning.

day2day

02-07-2008, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

If this was a walkaway, and I've yet to have any theory that reaches 50% likely, it would have been long planned. There may be evidence of that planning. [/*]

You are right JJ. I believe if he walked away he had planned this for a VERY long time...and some of that planning could have been on the hard drive. BUT i have a hard time believing that puter was in the river on 4/15/05..:(
jmo...

Laws

02-08-2008, 02:29 AM

Ray Gricar's FINANCES could be reconciled over a 5 - 10 year period very easily.

Last I knew Tony Gricar was fairly comfortable with knowing that the FBI had reviewed Mr. Gricar's financial status, but would be shocked if they had actually reconciled & if they went back any further than 24 months, but I could be absolutely wrong about that, I admit.

J. J. in Phila

02-08-2008, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Laws
Ray Gricar's FINANCES could be reconciled over a 5 - 10 year period very easily.

Last I knew Tony Gricar was fairly comfortable with knowing that the FBI had reviewed Mr. Gricar's financial status, but would be shocked if they had actually reconciled & if they went back any further than 24 months, but I could be absolutely wrong about that, I admit. [/*]

From everything I've heard, there has been no forensic accountant that looked at even the last two years.

My understanding, which is third hand, is that the FBI, at one point, was monitoring his credit card records.

Politigal

02-09-2008, 07:51 PM

Bosak's updates

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=1

QDid Mr. Gricar exhibit any unusual fascination in regard to previous cases of suspected intentional disappearance (such as the case of Melvin L. Wiley, 1985, Ohio)?
Anonymous 1/28/08
AI don't know if I'd say it was an "unusual fascination," but Ray spoke of the Mel Wiley disappearance to his friend, Assistant District Attorney Steve Sloane. For those of you who may not know, Wiley was a police chief in Hinckley, Ohio, and vanished without a trace in 1985. His abandoned car was found Cleveland's Lakefront State Park. Steve Sloane told me it shouldn't be a surprise that Ray, who was a prosecutor in Cleveland, would know another law enforcement officers in that area, which is a valid point. By why Ray was talking about Wiley six or seven years after the fact is uncertain. By the time Steve joined the district attorney's office with Ray, Wiley would have been missing for years.
Pete Bosak 2/09/08
QPete, I have a question about Carolyn Fenton and Judge Grine seeing Ray Gricar in the parking lot of the court house around 3pm on 4/15/05. Judge Grine did not remember if it was 4/14/05 or 4/15/05 that the 2 of them saw him. If it was a court trial that ended early, was there a CDT court reporter with the trial information? Wouldn't that be information a reporter has access to as a public record? I don't feel it was Judge Grine who left Carolyn Fenton high and dry with not agreeing with her information. I feel the info should have been checked out before the info was put in the paper. It was incomplete info where one CCCH employee is making a statement and the other person can not agree with her in full, he wasn't sure. Any way for you to go back and check that out, or have the new detective check it out? The next question would be, where did the different car come from that Ray was driving? Was it a friends, did he buy it, where, when and how?
Jeannie, Milroy, PA 2/09/08
AJeannie, first off, what happened was a trial that was scheduled ONLY for that Friday, April 15, 2005, ended up settling and that is why Carolyn decided to take the afternoon off that day. Judge Grine did NOT leave her high and dry. He remembered seeing Ray behind the courthouse about the same time Carolyn did, only he did not know what day it was, Thursday or Friday. That is all I ever said about this and, to my knowledge, this wasn't in the paper. It was only discussed in this forum. What I do not believe I ever reported in this forum is that I did indeed ask his honor to check his schedule in an attempt to determine whether he saw Ray the Friday afternoon he vanished or the day before. His schedule did not help in determining what day he left early. I checked out all of this thoroughly Jeannie. As for where that different car came from, that's the $64,000 question - if of course you believe Carolyn's sighting is authentic. Remember, this was never really checked out because it didn't fit the timeline, according to previous lead detective.
Pete Bosak 2/09/08
QDid you ever get to meet with police and learn where the prints were located in the Mini?
Politigal, Arlington, TX 1/30/08
ANo, and I'm getting a bit frustrated. I've been asking about those prints for the better part of a month now. Detective Rickard and I spoke briefly about a week ago, with plans to set up a time to talk maybe this past Thursday or Friday. My calls weren't returned. Maybe he was just busy, I don't know. But this is a reason why questions to this forum aren't answered quickly. I just don't have the access that I used to. By the way Politigal, thanks for everything you've done in keeping Ray Gricar's case alive. Please feel free to e-mail me anytime at pbosak@centredaily.com.
Pete Bosak 2/09/08

Cinderella

02-09-2008, 08:12 PM

All I can say is that the Judge could have recalled what day it was. That he can't remember doesn't make it for me.
I just better say no more. It was the BPD's job to have him recall the event and they didn't bother.

All Judge Grine had to do was to look up the trial that was settled early.

I hope that Tony doesn't buy their crap any longer. I feel that they are just pacifying him when they just don't give a ****. :flamemad:

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 08:16 PM

I think GStickley just found her link. :)

The only think I'll add is that this was not the only walkaway case in which RFG was interested in.

Now, that does not prove that RFG walked away, but it is very interesting that RFG was interested in these cases, even well after the fact. Sloane started working at the DA's office about 7 years after Wiley disappeared.

Cinderella

02-09-2008, 08:18 PM

J. J.,

Pgal found the post about Carolyn Fenton.

J. J. by your walk away case, you can fool some people but not me. Ray isn't alive. We know who was involved.

Cinderella

02-09-2008, 08:20 PM

I am going to ask Pete to specify who all was working in the courthouse on April 15, 2005. Most were out. Wonder where?

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J.,

Pgal found the post about Carolyn Fenton.

J. J. by your walk away case, you can fool some people but not me. Ray isn't alive. We know who was involved. [/*]

I have updated my odds 43% walkaway, 42% murder, 15% suicide. It's not a huge improvement. Based on everything I know, think I know, or am able to make a really good guess at, I wouldn't put walkaway above 45% or murder below 40%.

I'm sure "GStickley" will I'm weigh in as soon as she removes the mouse from her throat.

Cinderella

02-09-2008, 08:40 PM

I have updated my odds also. 100% dead, murdered and not coming back. :flamemad:

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I have updated my odds also. 100% dead, murdered and not coming back. :flamemad: [/*]

The evidence has yet to support that. I will say this, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence for walkaway (which has been posted), but nothing that I know about that is definitive.

Cinderella

02-09-2008, 08:53 PM

J. J.,

Since you like to talk about odds. I would say that I believe that you are a 100% strategic writer. And that is my final answer.

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J.,

Since you like to talk about odds. I would say that I believe that you are a 100% strategic writer. And that is my final answer. [/*]

I have no idea what you mean by "strategic writer."

Cind, when I made a reference to Mel Wiley (and Jay Carsey), I had no idea it had ever been discussed by RFG. When JKA's pages came out, with 10 paragraphs on Wiley, (and not a mention of Carsey), I strongly suspected it. I didn't know, for sure, until after the first of the year.

Now, this is far short of proving RFG walked away, but it is another piece of the puzzle.

I've always said that someone will ask the right question or make the right comment. This looks like that off hand comment might be one of those.

The real question is:

If RFG walked away, how did he get out of Lewisburg?

I think there will be evidence, if he did. If there isn't, the chances on murder go up. If there is solid evidence, I stop posting. :)

Serendipitous1

02-09-2008, 09:19 PM

You know...in reading many of the answers in the Q&A, J. J. and PB seem "sympatico", grammatically speaking. I am often left having to guess words and verb tense...to try and understand what is being posted. Maybe it is just me though. :D

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
You know...in reading many of the answers in the Q&A, J. J. and PB seem "sympatico", grammatically speaking. I am often left having to guess words and verb tense...to try and understand what is being posted. Maybe it is just me though. :D [/*]

Unfortunately, it's just you, though I will take it as a compliment. He makes more money than I do. :)

day2day

02-09-2008, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I am going to ask Pete to specify who all was working in the courthouse on April 15, 2005. Most were out. Wonder where? [/*]

That is a wonderful idea. I would also like to know if Mr. Gricar was the ONLY person who was working on the evening of 4/14?

Serendipitous1

02-09-2008, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snip>
I have no idea what you mean by "strategic writer."

Cind, when I made a reference to Mel Wiley (and Jay Carsey), I had no idea it had ever been discussed by RFG. When JKA's pages came out, with 10 paragraphs on Wiley, (and not a mention of Carsey), I strongly suspected it. I didn't know, for sure, until after the first of the year.

Now, this is far short of proving RFG walked away, but it is another piece of the puzzle.

I've always said that someone will ask the right question or make the right comment. This looks like that off hand comment might be one of those. "Strategic writer" is a throw-back to the silliness of Lion Country. As evidenced by a recent event, they just do not build some zoo walls high enough to protect the public.

SS apparently became a CC ADA in the latter part of 1992. The Wiley case resurfaced in the news in 1993 when Wiley's mother went to court to have him legally declared dead. RG maintained his attorney registration in Ohio and was said to have maintained contact with lawyer-type chums in the Cleveland area. I see nothing unusual in RG discussing the Wiley case with colleagues.

All JMOO.

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by day2day

That is a wonderful idea. I would also like to know if Mr. Gricar was the ONLY person who was working on the evening of 4/14? [/*]

I'd like to know where[ those other workers, and a few others, were on 4/14 and 4/15/05.

Politigal

02-09-2008, 09:53 PM

On Bosak's response regarding Mel Wiley....

QDid Mr. Gricar exhibit any unusual fascination in regard to previous cases of suspected intentional disappearance (such as the case of Melvin L. Wiley, 1985, Ohio)?
Anonymous 1/28/08
AI don't know if I'd say it was an "unusual fascination," but Ray spoke of the Mel Wiley disappearance to his friend, Assistant District Attorney Steve Sloane. For those of you who may not know, Wiley was a police chief in Hinckley, Ohio, and vanished without a trace in 1985. His abandoned car was found Cleveland's Lakefront State Park. Steve Sloane told me it shouldn't be a surprise that Ray, who was a prosecutor in Cleveland, would know another law enforcement officers in that area, which is a valid point. By why Ray was talking about Wiley six or seven years after the fact is uncertain. By the time Steve joined the district attorney's office with Ray, Wiley would have been missing for years.
Pete Bosak 2/09/08

I think it's probably safe to assume, if RG spoke about Wiley to Sloane, that he might have also spoken to PF about it too.

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
"Strategic writer" is a throw-back to the silliness of Lion Country. As evidenced by a recent event, they just do not build some zoo walls high enough to protect the public.

SS apparently became a CC ADA in the latter part of 1992. The Wiley case resurfaced in the news in 1993 when Wiley's mother went to court to have him legally declared dead. RG maintained his attorney registration in Ohio and was said to have maintained contact with lawyer-type chums in the Cleveland area. I see nothing unusual in RG discussing the Wiley case with colleagues.

All JMOO. [/*]

It wasn't the same county, which makes it a bit more unlikely. It was also not a particularly earth shattering case and it was civil, not criminal. It seems to have been known in the office, which makes it more than a passing remark. And, of course, there was the other case, which is still sub rosa. I suspect that there will be a link, someday. :)

I tend to believe TOL's friend; call it a hunch.

Serendipitous1

02-09-2008, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Politigal <Snip>
I think it's probably safe to assume, if RG spoke about Wiley to Sloane, that he might have also spoken to PF about it too. That would be interesting...if true...since, from what I gather, the Wiley discussion with SS occurred in the 1990's. MOO

Politigal

02-09-2008, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
That would be interesting...if true...since, from what I gather, the Wiley discussion with SS occurred in the 1990's. MOO [/*]

yes, that's what PB appears to be saying about Sloane, but there was nothing precluding RG from speaking about it in later yrs as well.

Politigal

02-09-2008, 10:16 PM

JKA vaguely recalled the "good old Mel Wiley" reference too, didn't she?

Cinderella

02-09-2008, 10:18 PM

Can anyone answer the question about RG's family being allowed to collect his retirement before 7 years. I thought that that was offered and Tony turned it down.

Can someone help me with this?

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

I think it's probably safe to assume, if RG spoke about Wiley to Sloane, that he might have also spoken to PF about it too. [/*]

P'gal, remember PEF's words, uttered in haste and at an emotionally trying time:

Patty Fornicola, Ray Gricar's longtime girlfriend and a clerk at the DA's office, also spoke.

"Ray, I love you very much and I miss you. I want you to come home. Please call us. We will wait for as long as we need,'' Fornicola said.

http://www.amw.com/missing_persons/case.cfm?id=31411

Serendipitous1

02-09-2008, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
It wasn't the same county, which makes it a bit more unlikely. It was also not a particularly earth shattering case and it was civil, not criminal. It seems to have been known in the office, which makes it more than a passing remark. And, of course, there was the other case, which is still sub rosa. I suspect that there will be a link, someday. :)

I tend to believe TOL's friend; call it a hunch. Seems to me that Wiley's car was found in the same county, and Wiley's case was unusual enough to draw attention. RG was strictly a prosecutor, but state bars do not make that distinction with lawyers...and I would not pigeon-hole RG as one whose interest was limited to criminal law. BTW, what is this "Jay Carsey" (no longer sub rosa?) stuff?

Cinderella

02-09-2008, 10:25 PM

S1, it is not only you that gets mixed up with J. J. and PB's words.

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

yes, that's what PB appears to be saying about Sloane, but there was nothing precluding RG from speaking about it in later yrs as well. [/*]

No, nor is there anything to preclude discussions of another walkaway case either. Sub rosa.

I would find it a little surprising RFG and Sloane would just start talking about Wiley immediately after Sloane was hired.

Serendipitous1

02-09-2008, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
JKA vaguely recalled the "good old Mel Wiley" reference too, didn't she? [/*]JKA was also a CC ADA in 1993. My question is whether or not RG showed an unusual and persistent fascination with walk-away cases...into this century.

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Seems to me that Wiley's car was found in the same county, and Wiley's case was unusual enough to draw attention. RG was strictly a prosecutor, but state bars do not make that distinction with lawyers...and I would not pigeon-hole RG as one whose interest was limited to criminal law. BTW, what is this "Jay Carsey" (no longer sub rosa?) stuff? [/*]

Not at least six to seven years later would Wiley be that much of an attention getter. And it looks like RFG initiated the subject (I doubt if Sloane would think about it or know the proximity of Hinckley to Cleveland).

At to the pigeon-hole, at the PBM, what did RFG say when asked a question about civil law? Speak to the county solicitor, because he wasn't "that kind of a lawyer."

Carsey was MD college president that vanished, only to turn up several years later; it was a voluntary walkaway. He was the subject of the best seller Exit the Rainmaker.

When asked by "Lustor" about other cases of walkaway, I mentioned both. Lustor and JKA both focused on Wiley, as opposed to Carsey. Ironically, Carsey was even mentioned in a press story.

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
JKA was also a CC ADA in 1993. My question is whether or not RG showed an unusual and persistent fascination with walk-away cases...into this century. [/*]

I think the answer is yes. There was another more recent case that RFG was "fascinated" with.

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Can anyone answer the question about RG's family being allowed to collect his retirement before 7 years. I thought that that was offered and Tony turned it down.

Can someone help me with this? [/*]

His estate could, but it would legitimately pass to the family.

Serendipitous1

02-09-2008, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Not at least six to seven years later would Wiley be that much of an attention getter. And it looks like RFG initiated the subject (I doubt if Sloane would think about it or know the proximity of Hinckley to Cleveland).

At to the pigeon-hole, at the PBM, what did RFG say when asked a question about civil law? Speak to the county solicitor, because he wasn't "that kind of a lawyer."

Carsey was MD college president that vanished, only to turn up several years later; it was a voluntary walkaway. He was the subject of the best seller Exit the Rainmaker.

When asked by "Lustor" about other cases of walkaway, I mentioned both. Lustor and JKA both focused on Wiley, as opposed to Carsey. Ironically, Carsey was even mentioned in a press story. All very interesting. But unless you can show that RG had an unusual and persistent fascination with walk-away cases, extending into the 2000's, it is only that. TG, who has certainly heard it all (including from SS) put the chances of walk-away at 1%. Who are we to argue with that? You say there was another more recent case that RFG was "fascinated" with. OK...spill your guts...we are listening. MOO

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
All very interesting. But unless you can show that RG had an unusual and persistent fascination with walk-away cases, extending into the 2000's, it is only that. TG, who has certainly heard it all (including from SS) put the chances of walk-away at 1%. Who are we to argue with that? You say there was another more recent case that RFG was "fascinated" with. OK...spill your guts...we are listening. MOO [/*]

You will have to wait until it is reported. I will say this, when I heard about it, I almost swallowed my mouse. It was completely out of the blue.

Perhaps you can ferret it out. :)

I think you can see my sourcing has been fairly good.

Serendipitous1

02-09-2008, 11:29 PM

J. J. in Phila

02-09-2008, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Your sourcing on Wiley was less than inspirational. But I await, intrepidly...as I must...for this startling revelation. [/*]

I consider Sloane to be a good source. I will say this, I think it is likely that if people start talking, you will see a number of people saying the same thing that TOL's friend was saying.

Serendipitous1

02-09-2008, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I consider Sloane to be a good source. I will say this, I think it is likely that if people start talking, you will see a number of people saying the same thing that TOL's friend was saying. That would be something. I must say that I, as one who did not know RG at all, have not actually budged from 3 theories, all equally possible. I hear TG...but, with all due respect, I am willing to listen to what others have to say. What do you say? Do not make us wait till April. Let's hear it!

Cinderella

02-09-2008, 11:57 PM

I didn't know where to post this. If anyone knows Ray enough would these be things that Ray would want?

Boomtown, by Toby Keith
Tibetan Astrology
Medical Billing
Health Insurance Billing
Chinese Fairy Tales and Fantasies
Professional Excell
Programmers Reference
The Lunar Men
Two Person Game Theory
Games and Decisons
How to represent yourself in court- How to prepare and try a winning case
New York Times Bridge Book
A Decade of Steely Dan
Games and Gambling
Lottery

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

From August, 2005, Dixon states five prints were found, a 'couple' only identified as RG's, rest not necessarily proven to be his. That means two prints identified as his. In a vehicle driven at least 60 miles, two prints only? I would like to see a breakdown of the smudged areas, to see if all of the smudged areas = areas that someone with gloves on would have had to touch to drive the vehicle.

From CNN interview---
DIXON: The vehicle was processed by the Pennsylvania state police on scene and at their station. They did find five fingerprints. The only **couple** that was **able to be identified**, certainly belonged to Ray himself.

JMO [/*]

I believe they did identify all readable prints. There were no prints that were from someone other than RFG.

Serendipitous1

02-10-2008, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
According to Dixon, FIVE prints TOTAL were found, only TWO identifiable prints were RG's. It was stated by billywahoo (5/13/05, based on DD's account) that "of those recovered, they were either ray's, i think patty's, and the others...drumroll for the conspiracy theorists....were not useable or were partials."

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

According to Dixon, FIVE prints TOTAL were found, only TWO identifiable prints were RG's. [/*]

It was later updated to all five sets.

Politigal

02-10-2008, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

It was later updated to all five sets. [/*]

No, it wasn't

Serendipitous1

02-10-2008, 12:45 AM

I am only interested in the truth...not PB's (or anyone else's) one-way door on "the truth".

Cinderella

02-10-2008, 12:45 AM

Where is UTR?

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It was stated by billywahoo (5/13/05, based on DD's account) that "of those recovered, they were either ray's, i think patty's, and the others...drumroll for the conspiracy theorists....were not useable or were partials." [/*]

"i think patty's?" Now, obviously not all would be usable, but if they are on the surfaces that were used for driving, RFG drove the Mini to Lewisburg.

Serendipitous1

02-10-2008, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
"i think patty's?" Now, obviously not all would be usable, but if they are on the surfaces that were used for driving, RFG drove the Mini to Lewisburg. All I am saying is that billywahoo, who professed to being at the the LE briefings, indicated that some of the fingerprints lifted from the Mini were possibly PF's...which could be expected. But, this has never been confirmed by LE. MOO

sherrijean981

02-10-2008, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You will have to wait until it is reported. I will say this, when I heard about it, I almost swallowed my mouse. It was completely out of the blue.

Perhaps you can ferret it out. :)

I think you can see my sourcing has been fairly good. [/*]

You two have my mind spinning trying to keep up with what you are talking about in your round about language. :)

Come on JJ. Stop putting up teasers on things and just tell us about it. If you heard something about another walk-away it must be out in the news somewhere. And by your statement it must be someone in a high power position if you almost ate the mouse!

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
All I am saying is that billywahoo, who professed to being at the the LE briefings, indicated that some of the fingerprints lifted from the Mini were possibly PF's...which could be expected. But, this has never been confirmed by LE. MOO [/*]

His qualification, "i think," might indicate that he wasn't sure.

Serendipitous1

02-10-2008, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
His qualification, "i think," might indicate that he wasn't sure. Possibly...it is not the only point billywahoo seemed to have later "waffled" on. JMOHO

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

You two have my mind spinning trying to keep up with what you are talking about in your round about language. :)

Come on JJ. Stop putting up teasers on things and just tell us about it. If you heard something about another walk-away it must be out in the news somewhere. And by your statement it must be someone in a high power position if you almost ate the mouse! [/*]

Oh, it was in the news.

It doesn't have anything to do with power, necessarily. I am saying that there was another more recent, ah, disappearance, that RFG was very interested in. If I were to give you the name, however, it might give some motivation, but it wouldn't prove means.

Let's say, hypothetically, RFG was interested in the Carsey case (as far as I know, he wasn't). Just being fascinated with it might establish his motivation; he wanted to do the same thing. It doesn't prove he walked away, only that he might have a desire to do so.

It's there, and it is part of the reason that Sloane thinks it was a walkaway case. RFG did have an interest in another walkaway case beyond Wiley.

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

No, it wasn't [/*]

Yes, it was, according to PB (and I believe LE).

puzzled

02-10-2008, 10:38 AM

Steve Sloane seems to have an agenda. I wonder if he was involved in Ray's " disappearance?" He was out of the office that day right? I wonder if he is pushing the walkaway theory in order to push people away from the foul play theory? Obviously it was foul play in my opinion. Lord knows I am not alway's right though.

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by puzzled
Steve Sloane seems to have an agenda. I wonder if he was involved in Ray's " disappearance?" He was out of the office that day right? I wonder if he is pushing the walkaway theory in order to push people away from the foul play theory? Obviously it was foul play in my opinion. Lord knows I am not alway's right though. [/*]

Except Sloane isn't quite the only one who is "pushing" walkaway. Some of the things that point to towards walkaway, the CF/Grine sighting, the Spotts comment, JKA's (and my) mention of Wiley, are independent of Sloane. (Translation: The thought has not only crossed, but galloped, across my mind; it's a legitimate question.)

Sloane didn't volunteer the Wiley information, for example; he was asked and then remembered it.

Cinderella

02-10-2008, 12:32 PM

Cinderella

02-10-2008, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Except Sloane isn't quite the only one who is "pushing" walkaway. Some of the things that point to towards walkaway, the CF/Grine sighting, the Spotts comment, JKA's (and my) mention of Wiley, are independent of Sloane. (Translation: The thought has not only crossed, but galloped, across my mind; it's a legitimate question.)

Sloane didn't volunteer the Wiley information, for example; he was asked and then remembered it. [/*]

Some of those clues could have been that Ray was upset with some people in the court house. If someone wants to walk away then they are not going to give it away especially to a Judge. I think that Ray didn't look too much at Judge Brown because Ray was angry with him. He might have known that hie life was in jeopardy and maybe that is why he said if I am around. It could also be his reaction to wanting to do the Vargas case one way and Judge Brown insisting he do it another way.

Also seeing Judge Grine, the Judge that couldn't remember which day that he saw him.

Ray was staying away from the courthouse for a reason. Did he know that he was being set up?

Something was happening in the courthouse, so that doesn't say to me that he walked away.

Most cover ups say that the person committed suicide or walked away.

My big question is why didn't the Judges come out and comment about Ray being missing? You would have thought that they cared about their DA.

I think that Ray got to the point of being tired of being told which way to do a case. Pfeiffer got away without anything, Vargas, Paxson and who knows how many others. I think that they were trying to dictate how Ray should prosecute the case, and Ray got tired of the politics involved and he started saying no that is not what I am going to do. I don't think that Ray was backing down either.

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella

I think that Ray got to the point of being tired of being told which way to do a case. Pfeiffer got away without anything, Vargas, Paxson and who knows how many others. I think that they were trying to dictate how Ray should prosecute the case, and Ray got tired of the politics involved and he started saying no that is not what I am going to do. I don't think that Ray was backing down either. [/*]

It is not a question of RFG "backing down." He could appeal in some cases, but the judges rule. It''s part of his job to convince the judge that he is right.

Cinderella

02-10-2008, 02:37 PM

Yes, I agree and I think that Ray always took the fair way. When favors or Politics enter into it, a person like Ray would have a hard time trying a case the way someone else wanted it tried if he didn't feel that it was right. I don't think that it was a matter of right or wrong, it was a matter of doing favors for certain people while the common people were treated different.

I think that Ray got in the way of how the at least one Judge wanted things to go.

Politigal

02-10-2008, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by day2day

my guess-yeppers!! :)...jmo and i bet you are right..he will have to get back to ya...:read: [/*]

I've never "walked in their shoes" but I've never understood the hairpiece thing. I've always thought bald men were beautiful. My boss is only about 40 and is already so worried about following in his dad's footsteps...who is completely bald. So, consequently, he comes his hair every which way to try and cover up the thin spots. It's just silly IMO.

gstickley

02-10-2008, 09:48 PM

So . . . for one year after RG's disappearance, S. Sloane claimed LE did not interview him ref. RG. After the profiler interviewed Sloane (probably among others), the profiler's opinion was suicide.

Now, approx. 2.75 yrs. later, it's being reported that S. Sloane has supposedly told PB that RG was interested in the Wiley disappearance, plus another disappearance.

Did Sloane ever report to LE that RG was interested in the disappearances of officials? If not, why not? If not, why wait all this time to go to PB? One would think PB would have jumped on that in a hurry . . . but you never know.

I remember the lady ex-commissioner whose report of the famous walk in the park by RG & PF was more or less deemed not credible because she went to the press instead of LE.

Does this mean Sloane may not be any more credible than posters believed the ex-commissioner to be?

Also, TOL's drunken friend, who told TOL about RG teaching or lecturing a class at Penn State & mentioning walking away, is about as unbelieveable as anything I've heard on this board; the drunken friend admitted to being intoxicated much of the time. Has anyone ever proven that RG ever taught or lectured a class at Penn State? But, we think she should be deemed credible???

Suddenly, after 2.75 yrs., people seem to be crawling out of the woodwork to talk about RG's interest in disappearing officials. Bloody amazing, IMO. The "walkaway theory" is coming alive once again!!!

Serendipitous1

02-10-2008, 10:18 PM

MOO - There is no excuse for private searchers/bystanders to be outshining official searchers. There is no excuse for those who knew RG intimately, or others with pertinent information, to not come forward publicly. There is no excuse for treating those who have come forward as if they must be mistaken. There is no excuse for TC to wash his "state" hands of this matter. There is no excuse why the BPD has been silent. There is no excuse why this matter has not been resolved. There is no excuse. MOO

Cinderella

02-10-2008, 10:23 PM

Cinderella

02-10-2008, 10:28 PM

There are three theorys so everyone can keep bouncing back and forth. I feel that it is time that this case is taken more seriously.

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
So . . . for one year after RG's disappearance, S. Sloane claimed LE did not interview him ref. RG. After the profiler interviewed Sloane (probably among others), the profiler's opinion was suicide.

Now, approx. 2.75 yrs. later, it's being reported that S. Sloane has supposedly told PB that RG was interested in the Wiley disappearance, plus another disappearance.

Ah, if you read carefully, you will note that PB asked. The other case was known well before the 2.75 years later.

Did Sloane ever report to LE that RG was interested in the disappearances of officials? If not, why not? If not, why wait all this time to go to PB? One would think PB would have jumped on that in a hurry . . . but you never know.

I think we could asked that since JKA noted about six months ago that she thought, possibly, the name "Mel Wiley" rang a bell that she didn't mention it to LE. In either case, I'm fairly certain LE was aware of it; certainly, they were aware of Sloane's longstanding belief that RFG walked away, if the read the newspaper.

I remember the lady ex-commissioner whose report of the famous walk in the park by RG & PF was more or less deemed not credible because she went to the press instead of LE.

Perhaps by you, but not by anyone else that I've seen posting. Except as a demeanor witness to the relationship between RFG and PEF, and that RFG looked "depressed" to her, I do question her relevance.

Does this mean Sloane may not be any more credible than posters believed the ex-commissioner to be?

Since the ex-commissioner was not a close friend of RFG, Sloane is more credible about the his conversations with RFG.

Also, TOL's drunken friend, who told TOL about RG teaching or lecturing a class at Penn State & mentioning walking away, is about as unbelieveable as anything I've heard on this board; the drunken friend admitted to being intoxicated much of the time. Has anyone ever proven that RG ever taught or lectured a class at Penn State? But, we think she should be deemed credible???

As noted, even less than credible witnesses may be correct. It is interesting that two people, independently, have noted this interest on RFG's part. No telling how many more might come forward.

Suddenly, after 2.75 yrs., people seem to be crawling out of the woodwork to talk about RG's interest in disappearing officials. Bloody amazing, IMO. The "walkaway theory" is coming alive once again!!!

No, you are having it reported 2.75 years later. It some of it was known much earlier. Now, perhaps had a certain ex-ADA been willing to contact the police when Wiley was first mentioned, this detail might have become public about 18 months ago. The first thing that I saw that triggered the suspicion that RFG had discussed the case was JKA's pages.

BTW: Glad to see you got the mouse out of your throat.

Cinderella

02-10-2008, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

I have always wondered when the last time was that the 'best friend' even talked to RG.

Always totally 'bugged' me re: exactly who was calling the 'shots' on interviewees, from the profiler, to Greta show, to Larry King, to lead detective.

Where was Smith, the new acting DA and the ADAs for these interviews? Where were the people who worked in the office with him every day, and I don't mean the SO, nor do I mean someone who was NOT in the office, off on disability leave?
JMO [/*]

---------------------------------------

Everyone has friends that care about people, but where were his friends. Not one person from the Courthouse except the two secretary's hardly said anything. Were all the workers in the DA's office hypnotized at the grief session. Why so soon. Because someone already knew. Why were the blinds drawn?

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Mark Smith live in Huntingdon?

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - There is no excuse for private searchers/bystanders to be outshining official searchers. There is no excuse for those who knew RG intimately, or others with pertinent information, to not come forward publicly. There is no excuse for treating those who have come forward as if they must be mistaken. There is no excuse for TC to wash his "state" hands of this matter. There is no excuse why the BPD has been silent. There is no excuse why this matter has not been resolved. There is no excuse. MOO [/*]

Don't confuse "publicly" with "kept it hidden from LE." Just because we don't know about it doesn't mean LE doesn't. I suspect there very much more out there, that I don't know about. TG, a few months ago, alluded to SS not thinking it was suicide, so I think this is now clearer what Sloane believes.

Cinderella

02-10-2008, 10:55 PM

Question for Pete:

http://pistoltraining.com/index.html

http://pistoltraining.com/html/lawenforcementtraining.html

Is this man related to Mark Smith?

Serendipitous1

02-10-2008, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Don't confuse "publicly" with "kept it hidden from LE." Just because we don't know about it doesn't mean LE doesn't. I suspect there very much more out there, that I don't know about. TG, a few months ago, alluded to SS not thinking it was suicide, so I think this is now clearer what mSloane believes. Well, trying to navigate your grammatical 'land mines'...should we then expect that SS is going to come forward with some revelation?

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Well, trying to navigate your grammatical 'land mines'...should we then expect that SS is going to come forward with some revelation? [/*]

I think PB is a quite good reporter that can find things out. :)

Serendipitous1

02-10-2008, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think PB is a quite good reporter that can find things out. :) I think PB is an all-around good guy...who does not (unfortunately) have a clue. Prove me wrong PB......please!

J. J. in Phila

02-10-2008, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I think PB is an all-around good guy...who does not (unfortunately) have a clue. Prove me wrong PB......please! [/*]

I think he's already started to. :)

Serendipitous1

02-11-2008, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think he's already started to. :) Well then, PB...show us there is some semblance of investigative reporting, alive at the CDT. We tire of your half-hearted attempts to placate the public in the Q&A. "Where's the beef?"

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I have always wondered when the last time was that the 'best friend' even talked to RG.

Always totally 'bugged' me re: exactly who was calling the 'shots' on interviewees, from the profiler, to Greta show, to Larry King, to lead detective.

I think some of the interview show questions have been answered. I would assume the profiler asked who were RFG's closest friends.

TG said at one point that Sloane definitely did not think it was suicide.

tonyGricar
Member

Registered: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 531

Several people were interviewed by the PSP profiler, so one person that was indicated (Sloane) did not create the suicide angle as gstickley stated. It was a composite. In fact, Sloane 100% didn't think that's what happened to Ray. (Not sarcastic)

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Old Post 09-14-2007 04:37 AM

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Well then, PB...show us there is some semblance of investigative reporting, alive at the CDT. We tire of your half-hearted attempts to placate the public in the Q&A. "Where's the beef?" [/*]

As he indicated, the police have clammed up, but more is trickling out. I think we have a reasonable good indication of motivation. Opportunity has been there. Means may be; he might have something.

We just got a little something and it has created a mild firestorm. He did clear up your concerns about Judge Grine; prehaps he can clear up what the BPD has looked at.

gstickley

02-11-2008, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

No, you are having it reported 2.75 years later. It some of it was known much earlier. Now, perhaps had a certain ex-ADA been willing to contact the police when Wiley was first mentioned, this detail might have become public about 18 months ago. The first thing that I saw that triggered the suspicion that RFG had discussed the case was JKA's pages.

BTW: Glad to see you got the mouse out of your throat. [/*]

No mouse in my throat.

I believe the following are KA's comments ref. RG/Wiley. Nowhere in her Magnificent Manuscript does she say RG "discussed" the Wiley case.

"Mel Wiley's disappearance occurred in late July of 1985. Whether it was something of which Ray or individuals in the office who had attended Ohio schools knew about, I'm not sure. Part of me has a vague sense that perhaps Wiley's name was once mentioned in the office, some reference to "good old Mel Wiley", though not by Ray, but when JJ brought it up, it did not initially sound familiar, so I'm not sure if the memory of the name beingmentioned is in fact accurate. In either event, the facts of the case were definitely not something Iever recall hearing prior to JJ's bringing it up. At the time Wiley disappeared, Ray would have been living in Centre County about 4-5 years and had just been elected DA for the first time."

Serendipitous1

02-11-2008, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
As he indicated, the police have clammed up, but more is trickling out. I think we have a reasonable good indication of motivation. Opportunity has been there. Means may be; he might have something.

We just got a little something and it has created a mild firestorm. He did clear up your concerns about Judge Grine; prehaps he can clear up what the BPD has looked at. My concerns? PB has, on 2 or 3 occasions now, cleverly avoided the facts concerning the judge. He (like the judge) has, in fact, left CF hang out to dry. MOO

sherrijean981

02-11-2008, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

No mouse in my throat.

I believe the following are KA's comments ref. RG/Wiley. Nowhere in her Magnificent Manuscript does she say RG "discussed" the Wiley case.

"Mel Wiley's disappearance occurred in late July of 1985. Whether it was something of which Ray or individuals in the office who had attended Ohio schools knew about, I'm not sure. Part of me has a vague sense that perhaps Wiley's name was once mentioned in the office, some reference to "good old Mel Wiley", though not by Ray, but when JJ brought it up, it did not initially sound familiar, so I'm not sure if the memory of the name beingmentioned is in fact accurate. In either event, the facts of the case were definitely not something Iever recall hearing prior to JJ's bringing it up. At the time Wiley disappeared, Ray would have been living in Centre County about 4-5 years and had just been elected DA for the first time." [/*]

This part of JKA's statement is what bothers me. First she says she has a vague sense of Wiley's name being mentioned, some reference to "good old Mel Wiley", but not by Ray - then, when JJ brought it up it did NOT initially sound familiar, so she is not sure if the memory of the name being mentioned is in fact accurate.

Where did she hear the name then and in a phrase "good old Mel Wiley"? Who was talking about it if not Ray and where? Why even mention it in her manuscript if she isn't sure of anything?

I would like to know what JKA was doing Thursday night, that something personal she had to do, that she wasn't working later? Didn't see Ray that Thursday night? Wasn't packing for her trip, if she was doing that on Sat, when DZ called her about Ray missing. And then wasn't sure of a whole lot on Friday at work, like remembering who all was in the office working?

Just things that have bothered me since her manuscript was posted.

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My concerns? PB has, on 2 or 3 occasions now, cleverly avoided the facts concerning the judge. He (like the judge) has, in fact, left CF hang out to dry. MOO [/*]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do not expect a judge to remember every detail of going home. The sole detail is the day and Grine gave access to his records to PB. Here is what PB said:

Jeannie, first off, what happened was a trial that was scheduled ONLY for that Friday, April 15, 2005, ended up settling and that is why Carolyn decided to take the afternoon off that day. Judge Grine did NOT leave her high and dry. He remembered seeing Ray behind the courthouse about the same time Carolyn did, only he did not know what day it was, Thursday or Friday. That is all I ever said about this and, to my knowledge, this wasn't in the paper. It was only discussed in this forum. What I do not believe I ever reported in this forum is that I did indeed ask his honor to check his schedule in an attempt to determine whether he saw Ray the Friday afternoon he vanished or the day before. His schedule did not help in determining what day he left early. I checked out all of this thoroughly Jeannie. As for where that different car came from, that's the $64,000 question - if of course you believe Carolyn's sighting is authentic. Remember, this was never really checked out because it didn't fit the timeline, according to previous lead detective.
Pete Bosak 2/09/08

Now, no one left CF high and dry, unless it was BPD, but it certainly wasn't PB or Grine.

Politigal

02-11-2008, 02:01 AM

IMO, some are trying to make this case way more complicated than it probably is - with conspiracy theories, etc.

IMO, it's most likely a very simple case of murder that wasn't properly investigated as such.

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

No mouse in my throat.

I believe the following are KA's comments ref. RG/Wiley. Nowhere in her Magnificent Manuscript does she say RG "discussed" the Wiley case.

The mouse must have cut off the oxygen to your brain briefly.

I said:

The first thing that I saw that triggered the suspicion that RFG had discussed the case was JKA's pages.

As noted, her memory is vague (and understandably so), but the first think that made me ask myself if RFG had discussed Wiley with anyone, was her comments. I mentioned at the time. I days later, perhaps because of the buildup she gave me, I started getting some information. I was able to confirm that RFG and Sloane talked about Wiley.

I think you can asked, very legitimately, if Wiley raised her interest, and perhaps a vague memory, why she didn't go to the police, or PB, or TG when I first mentioned it on the board, way back 2006? (In all fairness, she might have gone to LE.) I did raise that possibility when Google pages were posted on this board, so I'm sure that they all knew about it, from me. It almost caused me to raise the odds on walkaway at the time.

sherrijean981

02-11-2008, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do not expect a judge to remember every detail of going home. The sole detail is the day and Grine gave access to his records to PB. Here is what PB said:

Jeannie, first off, what happened was a trial that was scheduled ONLY for that Friday, April 15, 2005, ended up settling and that is why Carolyn decided to take the afternoon off that day. Judge Grine did NOT leave her high and dry. He remembered seeing Ray behind the courthouse about the same time Carolyn did, only he did not know what day it was, Thursday or Friday. That is all I ever said about this and, to my knowledge, this wasn't in the paper. It was only discussed in this forum. What I do not believe I ever reported in this forum is that I did indeed ask his honor to check his schedule in an attempt to determine whether he saw Ray the Friday afternoon he vanished or the day before. His schedule did not help in determining what day he left early. I checked out all of this thoroughly Jeannie. As for where that different car came from, that's the $64,000 question - if of course you believe Carolyn's sighting is authentic. Remember, this was never really checked out because it didn't fit the timeline, according to previous lead detective.
Pete Bosak 2/09/08

Now, no one left CF high and dry, unless it was BPD, but it certainly wasn't PB or Grine. [/*]

I just want it known I did not say Judge Grine left CF high and dry when I sent my question to Pete. I was not trying to cause an argument, only asking a question or two.

Quote:
"QPete, I have a question about Carolyn Fenton and Judge Grine seeing Ray Gricar in the parking lot of the court house around 3pm on 4/15/05. *****I don't feel it was Judge Grine who left Carolyn Fenton high and dry with not agreeing with her information.***** "
Quote

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Where did she hear the name then and in a phrase "good old Mel Wiley"? Who was talking about it if not Ray and where? Why even mention it in her manuscript if she isn't sure of anything?

First, I doubt if I could remember every reference I've heard since 1988, so I can cut JKA a bit of slack for not remembering the exact context.

It does seem a bit unusual that if this raised some memory in 2006, even a vague recollection, that JKA didn't (so far as we know) contact LE or even SS himself. She didn't contact TG or PB, by their own statements. I feel reasonably sure that PB would have been happy to talk to her.

I would like to know what JKA was doing Thursday night, that something personal she had to do, that she wasn't working later? Didn't see Ray that Thursday night? Wasn't packing for her trip, if she was doing that on Sat, when DZ called her about Ray missing. And then wasn't sure of a whole lot on Friday at work, like remembering who all was in the office working?

I think it is important to know the whereabouts of every member of that inner circle on 4/14-4/15/05, and to know if they purchased or rented a car. Now JKA is on that list, but not quite at the top of that list. I think MS has been accounted for and so has PEF.

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I just want it known I did not say Judge Grine left CF high and dry when I sent my question to Pete. I was not trying to cause an argument, only asking a question or two.

Quote:
"QPete, I have a question about Carolyn Fenton and Judge Grine seeing Ray Gricar in the parking lot of the court house around 3pm on 4/15/05. *****I don't feel it was Judge Grine who left Carolyn Fenton high and dry with not agreeing with her information.***** "
Quote [/*]

I don't mean to imply that you did. Sorry. I obviously don't think she was left high and dry either.

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

I couldn't agree more, S1.
Different tapdance, different day, with the latest offering, as clear as 'mud', as usual.
[/quoter]

I would call his PB's answers very clear, though he is not omniscient.

[quote]
I am VERY concerned as a county resident about the constant utilization of a certain 'type', loath to call it style considering I truly can't associate it with anything bearing any resemblence to style, typically found in a select group dynamic. It appears to be the mainstay in this investigation or lack thereof and has been evident since very early on, almost immediately after RG went missing.

I think this is common in any police investigation. Obviously, LE knows more than it is saying.

Politigal

02-11-2008, 02:14 PM

Bosak update 2/11

QPete, Thank you for your quick reply. I am sorry I said anything about your reporting. You have been more giving on the investigation than LE. Any ideas on putting an article or ad in the paper for the 3rd anniversary of Ray's disappearance? Maybe an updated story by you with updates on the investigation or comments from his friends and co-workers? Have you heard of any type of acknowledgement or memorial, to the 3 year date by PF, family, friends, co-workers or community?
Jeannie, Milroy, PA 2/10/08
AHi Jeannie, and not a problem at all. I actually have a number of ideas in the works for stories on the investigation, not just for the anniversary. I do see an anniversary report coming though. I haven't heard of any talk of a memorial service, by those close to Ray or the community. But I promise to report on it if something comes about.
Pete Bosak 2/11/08

Cinderella

02-11-2008, 03:20 PM

Pete.

I am tired of not knowing how many finger prints or sets of finger prints where found in the Mini. I would like to know how many there were in the Mini and if any were found on the outside of the car. Where they all Ray's? Where there any of PF's. I know that they found Ray's DNA on the water bottle but where any of his finger prints found on the water bottle. This has been very mixed up from the beginning. Wanting to know the truth. Don't just tell me what you think, I want the truth. :cuss:

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 06:19 PM

Give the guy some time, Cind; I'm sure he's trying.

J. J.

Cinderella

02-11-2008, 06:44 PM

Since I complained about Pete, he must think that he better shut my complaining up. He already posted the answer. See what complaining does sometimes.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

QPete. I am tired of not knowing how many finger prints or sets of finger prints where found in the Mini. I would like to know how many there were in the Mini and if any were found on the outside of the car. Where they all Ray's? Where there any of PF's. I know that they found Ray's DNA on the water bottle but where any of his finger prints found on the water bottle. This has been very mixed up from the beginning. Wanting to know the truth. Don't just tell me what you think, I want the truth. Where there someone else's prints on or in the car also?
Cinderella 2/11/08

AHi Cind, Thanks for your question and your patience as I waited for the answer from Bellefonte police. I talked with Detective Matt Rickard today and I learned what had been said by the prior investigator on the case was not entirely accurate. And I must admit, I'm a bit surprised by these results. There were three prints lifted from Ray's Mini Cooper, not five as the last investigator had said. What he may have meant was there were five total prints sent for analysis, but two of those prints were duplicates. So there were only three prints lifted from the car, and only one of them definitively belonged to Ray Gricar, Rickard said. That print was found on the exterior window of the driver's side door, and it was identified as being left by Gricar's left middle finger. Two other prints were lifted, one from the exterior door handle on the driver's side and the second from a water bottle found inside the Mini. But they did not have enough ridge characteristics be be identified, the lab report indicated. So there were no identifiable prints found inside the Mini Cooper. What prints were there were not good enough in quality to be matched to anyone.
Pete Bosak 2/11/08

Cinderella

02-11-2008, 06:45 PM

I know how to spell were, but I spelled it where? Now CB can pick on me. :D

Cinderella

02-11-2008, 06:53 PM

Only one finger print of Ray's found on the outside windows of the drivers side door. Rays left hand middle finger.

Oh so if he was going to commit suicide then he watched what he touched in the car. So as not to get any prints on it.

If he was walking away, he was careful not to get any finger prints on his car. Now J. J. are you still saying that Ray drove his Mini there. He might have driven it somewhere, but then it was wiped down. None of PF's prints found.

HHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmm

Foul play to me.

Only one finger print that could be matched plus a lot of smoke in the car. Someone was being very careful.

day2day

02-11-2008, 07:14 PM

So there is NO proof Mr. Gricar drove that car on 4/15/2005
Thanks for posting this Cind..and thanks PB for keeping ONTO LE until they answer the questions that you are asking them!!

Politigal

02-11-2008, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Since I complained about Pete, he must think that he better shut my complaining up. He already posted the answer. See what complaining does sometimes.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

QPete. I am tired of not knowing how many finger prints or sets of finger prints where found in the Mini. I would like to know how many there were in the Mini and if any were found on the outside of the car. Where they all Ray's? Where there any of PF's. I know that they found Ray's DNA on the water bottle but where any of his finger prints found on the water bottle. This has been very mixed up from the beginning. Wanting to know the truth. Don't just tell me what you think, I want the truth. Where there someone else's prints on or in the car also?
Cinderella 2/11/08

AHi Cind, Thanks for your question and your patience as I waited for the answer from Bellefonte police. I talked with Detective Matt Rickard today and I learned what had been said by the prior investigator on the case was not entirely accurate. And I must admit, I'm a bit surprised by these results. There were three prints lifted from Ray's Mini Cooper, not five as the last investigator had said. What he may have meant was there were five total prints sent for analysis, but two of those prints were duplicates. So there were only three prints lifted from the car, and only one of them definitively belonged to Ray Gricar, Rickard said. That print was found on the exterior window of the driver's side door, and it was identified as being left by Gricar's left middle finger. Two other prints were lifted, one from the exterior door handle on the driver's side and the second from a water bottle found inside the Mini. But they did not have enough ridge characteristics be be identified, the lab report indicated. So there were no identifiable prints found inside the Mini Cooper. What prints were there were not good enough in quality to be matched to anyone.
Pete Bosak 2/11/08 [/*]

Finally!!! Thank you PB!!!

NO PROOF RG DROVE THAT CAR TO LEWISBURG - NONE NADA ZILCH..

Tree_of_Life

02-11-2008, 07:29 PM

So basically, there was only one readable print. While you were at it, you should have asked him if there was any evidence that it was wiped down. Or if the fact that there WAS only one readable print would lead to a further possibility that it was wiped down. Or perhaps not wiped down, but "driven carefully." In other words, would LE expect there to be more identifiable prints if Gricar were the sole driver that day? Maybe LE has already commented on this before, I don't remember.

As nice as it is to get any tidbit of new information on this case, I seriously don't see what conclusions can be drawn from this. I don't think that you can definitively say from this that he DID or DIDN'T drive the mini to Lewisburg. Just my opinion until more evidence is known.

gstickley

02-11-2008, 08:39 PM

It was reported early on that there was no evidence the car had been wiped down.

However, how would you know? If PB is correct in his latest answer that the prior investigator was wrong about the prints, perhaps he may have also been wrong about the car not being wiped down.

Again, how would you know?

As far as someone driving the car & not leaving prints, IMO it could easily be done. There is no proof of who drove the car to Lewisburg; therefore, no proof that Ray Gricar did so.

Cinderella

02-11-2008, 08:58 PM

I agree with you gstickley, how can they tell that the car wasn't wiped down. How do they know how clean it was to begin with.
I am sure if something was used that caused a smell then they would know. Maybe that is why it was full of cigarette smoke to mask the odor of it being wiped somehow. The cigarette smoke was there for a reason. Not that someone just smoked, it was to mask an odor, I bet.

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

If the car had been wiped down, it would a) remove smudged prints and *) possibly leave residue and wipe lines.

If someone knew enough NOT to wipe the car down but instead to wear gloves and smudge the prints, it would be much more likely to 'pass muster' that RG could have smudged them.

There is another problem; when we talked about gloves, there was the idea that the prints could be smudged, by the gloves. Someone could have worn gloves and you'd have the same effect.

Therefore smudging while wearing thin plastic or rubber gloves would better serve someone attempting to make it look like RG drove the car than a wipe down. With gloves on no fear of even getting ones prints anywhere.
JMO [/*]

The problem here is that the lack of prints would be telling (which is what we're now talking about). The question though is why did DZ and Dixon, both gone now, say that there were prints?

Can anybody say grand jury (who would have had access to the report)?

gstickley

02-11-2008, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

If the car had been wiped down, it would a) remove smudged prints and *) possibly leave residue and wipe lines.

If someone knew enough NOT to wipe the car down but instead to wear gloves and smudge the prints, it would be much more likely to 'pass muster' that RG could have smudged them.

If they were wiped clean, it would leave one with the impression someone was attempting to hide their prints, which RG would have no reason to do. Therefore smudging while wearing thin plastic or rubber gloves would better serve someone attempting to make it look like RG drove the car than a wipe down. With gloves on no fear of even getting ones prints anywhere.
JMO [/*]

Exactly, LW.

Cinderella

02-11-2008, 09:29 PM

We have foul play and LE better get up to date on that. We have a murderer running around. Someone or several that think that they got away with it.

Through God all things are possible. I have been praying that God would expose the people that were involved and allow everyone to know what happened. Prayer is powerful. Keep praying.

Ray did not deserve this.

Cinderella

02-11-2008, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Tree_of_Life
So basically, there was only one readable print. While you were at it, you should have asked him if there was any evidence that it was wiped down. Or if the fact that there WAS only one readable print would lead to a further possibility that it was wiped down. Or perhaps not wiped down, but "driven carefully." In other words, would LE expect there to be more identifiable prints if Gricar were the sole driver that day? Maybe LE has already commented on this before, I don't remember.

As nice as it is to get any tidbit of new information on this case, I seriously don't see what conclusions can be drawn from this. I don't think that you can definitively say from this that he DID or DIDN'T drive the mini to Lewisburg. Just my opinion until more evidence is known. [/*]

I think that he drove the Mini that day, but I just don't know where he drove it to. He did go on 192. A witness said that he saw him at 7:30 a.m. How far did Ray travel that road?

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

There were prints.

The lack of prints would be telling, ...
of a wipe down.

I continue to believe someone can plead the fifth and never answer one question, and secondly, if a grand jury cannot find enough evidence to bring charges, no charges can be brought against the person at a later date.

The witness can be given immunity for that testimony, and cannot take the Fifth. If he refuses to answer them, he can jailed for contempt.

Obviously someone wise enough to have had this go on for three years....stalled......will know all the loopholes, therefore I would rather see a full investigation, absent ALL conflict of interest, which is not what we have seen up to this date, prior to it being turned over to a grand jury if necessary.
JMO

So far, the only thing close to anything improper is this new revelation. It begs the question of why two police officers, the chief and the investigating officer, publicly and apparently privately, claimed that some evidence existed that didn't exist.

That, to me, warrants an independent investigation where they can be compelled to testify (and the actual results of the investigation scrutinized).

I'm not a big fan of crying cover-up, but it seems that evidence the BPD said was there, wasn't.

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Tree_of_Life
So basically, there was only one readable print. While you were at it, you should have asked him if there was any evidence that it was wiped down. Or if the fact that there WAS only one readable print would lead to a further possibility that it was wiped down. Or perhaps not wiped down, but "driven carefully." In other words, would LE expect there to be more identifiable prints if Gricar were the sole driver that day? Maybe LE has already commented on this before, I don't remember.

It wouldn't have to be driven carefully, just with gloves.

As nice as it is to get any tidbit of new information on this case, I seriously don't see what conclusions can be drawn from this.

It tells us more about the police than it does about what happened to RFG. That question might be very important.

I don't think that you can definitively say from this that he DID or DIDN'T drive the mini to Lewisburg. Just my opinion until more evidence is known. [/*]

Not based on fingerprints, but there is more evidence, if LE is giving us the correct information.

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

If, after hearing and reviewing evidence presented to it, a grand jury determines there is sufficient evidence of criminal activity, the grand jury issues a written document called a "presentment."

The presentment summarizes the evidence the grand jury has heard and recommends that prosecutors file specific charges against specific persons.

***Under Pennsylvania law, a prosecutor is NOT required to follow the grand jury's recommendation that criminal charges be filed.*** [/*]

And, after a police investigation, a prosecutor is NOT required to file charges. In both cases, if there was evidence of criminal wrongdoing, there would be so much pressure on the DA that it would require it.

The presentment from a grand jury, I believe , is public. As can be seen, the results of a police investigation need not be.

J. J. in Phila

02-11-2008, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

I find that hard to believe considering............
Grand jury proceedings are conducted in secret. The start of a grand jury investigation is not publicly announced nor are names of persons subpoenaed to appear before the grand jury made public. The proceedings are not open to the public and both the grand jurors and the prosecutors who bring evidence before the grand jury swear not to disclose matters occurring before it. The secrecy of the proceedings protects both the integrity of the investigation and the privacy of persons called to testify before the grand jury. [/*]

The presentments are public, I've read one. A grand jury can issue reports; I've read those as well.

J. J. in Phila

02-12-2008, 12:54 AM

Here are five, ranging from hazing to child molestation:

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:C0YJ1ffU3XQJ:www.attorneygeneral.go v/uploadedFiles/Crime/Heroin_report.pdf+Grand+jury+report+Pennsylvania&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

http://www.philadelphiadistrictattorney.com/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-05-2007/0004560615&EDATE=

http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/da/cwp/view.asp?Q=582795&A=11

http://www.newsday.com/sports/highschool/ny-mephamgrandjurytext,0,7485546.story?coll=ny-lischools-utility

A grand jury is conducted in secret, but their reports are public; something like the misstatements of the fingerprint report would have been found within 15 minutes.

sherrijean981

02-12-2008, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

The presentments are public, I've read one. A grand jury can issue reports; I've read those as well. [/*]

I read the Grand Jury Report on-line, on the 3 brothers who were stealing cars, one charged with murder, and things to do with their junk yards, recycling centers all over the state, that were going on from the south east part of the state , to NJ on I-80 almost up to Lewisburg and further north into NY.

Politigal

02-12-2008, 09:56 PM

QHi Pete- thanks for your hard work and continued attention to this mystery. I am convinced the answer lies in identifying the woman he was seen speaking to in Lewistown. There were eye witness who saw her, right? I know police attempted to identify her, correct? Why were no composites drawlings of this woman prepared? In my opinion, if you find her, you will find Ray. Where does this aspect of the investigation stand?
Anonymous, Philadelphia, PA 2/12/08
AThe so-called mystery woman of Lewisburg, a lead that went nowhere because it essentially was dropped after an initial hunch by officers didn't pan out. There was an eyewitness, a store owner, who claimed to have seen Ray talking with this woman at the Street of Shoppes. But, as you may recall, the lead investigator at the time never mentioned it publicly until well after the fact. You may also remember the firestorm that caused with national and local, demanding to know why they did not make this sighting public or put out a composite. I do know who police thought the mystery woman was, an acquaintance of Ray's who now works in state government. She fit the description and those who knew Ray thought it must have been this woman. So state police checked it out and determined the woman sighted with Ray could not have been the woman police first thought it was. So they essentially dropped it. The mystery woman was described as between 5 feet 8 inches and 5 feet 10 inches tall, dark haired and "good looking," former lead investigator Darrel Zaccagni said. When it did come out, when Zaccagni talked about the woman for "Dateline NBC," investigators admitted the were surprised by the uproar it caused with the press covering Gricar's disappearance. They said investigators knew this all along and it really was nothing new. It was about that same time investigators spoke publicly about a "construction-worker type" seen leaning into the passenger-side window of a Mini Cooper outside the Street of Shoppes.
Pete Bosak 2/12/08