Psst...Tom Corbett-Can We Talk?

[day2day]

MAY 13, 2005

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3777.html

Copyright 2007 The Centre Daily Times
All Rights Reserved



Seeing as this article is 2+ years old maybe it is TIME for Mr. Corbett to step up and do a little investigation of his own. Obviously, this case is going nowhere fast and can use ALL the "outside" help available.

Honestly..i have seen more interest in a missing pup case than i have in Mr. Gricar's and it really is getting OLD.


As the top law enforcement officer of the state, shouldn't he have a valid interest in finding out what happened to the top law enforcement officer of one of his 67 counties? Or is it now acceptable that his DA'S just "vanish without a trace?" Either way ..I wanna know the answer!


JMO

[day2day]

What DEPRESSES me (which is what this thread is about)..is the fact that Mr. Corbett along with countless others pretend that NOTHING ever happened to Mr. Gricar..

and that is a freakin shame!

[Politigal]

Hopefully, police *are* still investigating, and hopefully they are no longer looking at walkaway or suicide.

Considering the following comments - hopefully they *ARE* focusing on Homicide.

DA Ted McKnight
http://tinyurl.com/3bnbkq
"It reconfirms in my mind that he's the object of foul play," said Clinton County District Attorney Ted McKnight.

Police Chief Dixon
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/08/08-02-05tdc/08-02-05dnews-01.asp
"I believe he is no longer with us," Dixon said, "but that's just my personal opinion."

Gricar’s Family (from the link above)
Because the hard drive is missing, Ray Gricar's family members are beginning to believe he was a victim of foul play, Tony Gricar said.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/09/09-16-05tdc/09-16-05dnews-07.asp

Lara Gricar
Gricar's nephew, Tony, said Lara Gricar has had no contact with her father and no longer thinks he is alive.

Tony Gricar
"Ray's daughter is the most important thing to him -- his world," he said. "He hasn't let his daughter know he's OK, so we have to really realize he's probably not alive at this point."

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/12208972.htm

Chris Gricar
“If I was a gambling man, homicide would be a heavy favorite,” Chris Gricar said.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/12556820.htm

Darrel Zaccagni
Zaccagni said that as time goes on, homicide becomes a more viable explanation for Ray Gricar's disappearance, especially because of how and where the laptop was found.

"Homicide becomes a more viable explanation"

Amen to that

[Serendipitous1]

http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=18950022&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=6


Copyright © 1995 - 2007 Townnews.com All Rights Reserved.

[day2day]

IMO it is going to take a very NEW set of eyes..like TOM CORBETT'S to move this case forward. 2+ years of Detz and others investigating this case has done ZILCH.

As for the pic pgal posted-to me it proves PF's point. The man looked TIRED. :shrug: Like a man who could have even walked away from it all..

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=18950022&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=6


Copyright © 1995 - 2007 Townnews.com All Rights Reserved. [/*]

So, do you believe the DeNaples/Corbett link has something to do with Gricar's disappearance?

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day

As for the pic pgal posted-to me it proves PF's point. The man looked TIRED. :shrug: Like a man who could have even walked away from it all.

I thought you did NOT believe RG just up and walked away from his daughter and his career and his constituents, etc.

Like Pgal, I have to ask whether you have had a change of heart.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day
IMO it is going to take a very NEW set of eyes..like TOM CORBETT'S to move this case forward. 2+ years of Detz and others investigating this case has done ZILCH.

As for the pic pgal posted-to me it proves PF's point. The man looked TIRED. :shrug: Like a man who could have even walked away from it all.. [/*]

Okay let's not read too much into one photo.

RFG may have:

1. Been concerned about the spread of drugs in Centre County.

2. Been respectfully listening to the AG.

3. Worked late the night before and just tired that day.

4. Been tired for a while.

5. Been depressed.

6. Been worried about something, personal or professional.

7. Been thinking, **In just a few weeks, I'll be putting all this crap behind me, thank God.**

We can read any of those things, or a combination of those things, into this, but we don't even know the exact context of what was happening in the room when the picture was taken. This more reflects our views than what really happened (including my multiple possibilities).

Now that said, either the Corbett or MM should send this to a new set of eyes. Either can impanel a grand jury, which could investigate.

[Tree_of_Life]

Didn't Tony say something about this picture that to him it looked like he was angry?

[Cloudbuster]

I gotta go with this one--I would be shocked if Corbett or MM would do anything with this case other than give who ever tries a pacifer to suck on.

Can no one see that they are not in positions to do anything because that in itself tells you that SOMEONE who sits way higher???? than them is NOT to be reckoned with. Why don't anybody understand what they see on this case? These folks have family and positions they love now, why would they jeabordize that? Or possibly their life?

You had Dixon who supposedly retired- end up with a Sheriff job?
You got Det Z who had a position created for him at a school?
You got someone now in there we have not heard a peep from?
You had Weaver come in from Fergunson?
You had PB drop the ball on investagating? PB gets a new job at CDT thus leaves Johnstown.
You had Erin N promoted?
You had MM get in (who was described as kicking the dirt where it needed kicked?))
You had KA given hours to vacate her position 2 hrs that is. (could be that she worked for Ray)?
BTW we have PF who has no real power.

Just step back and really exam this. Maybe we are just looking at the wrong things here. Where is the main HEAD QUATERS for the drug task as in DEA headquaters. If you have one double crosser then a whole ripple effect can happen with lots of P_I_N_G_S


JMOO--slips by to cover the eyes up. Blindfold myself again. I see nothing now.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


I thought you did NOT believe RG just up and walked away from his daughter and his career and his constituents, etc.

Like Pgal, I have to ask whether you have had a change of heart. [/*]

UTR-to be honest i have no idea what happened. In a perfect world NO Dad would ever walk away from his children, but we both know it happens everyday.
I would hope that he didn't just up and walk away..but he did pay pf's mortgage off ..he did buy her a car..LG will get his retirement and the monies left in his account. So they are taken care of.
I just think he looks tired. :shrug:

[day2day]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I gotta go with this one--I would be shocked if Corbett or MM would do anything with this case other than give who ever tries a pacifer to suck on.

Can no one see that they are not in positions to do anything because that in itself tells you that SOMEONE who sits way higher???? than them is NOT to be reckoned with. Why don't anybody understand what they see on this case? These folks have family and positions they love now, why would they jeabordize that? Or possibly their life?

You had Dixon who supposedly retired- end up with a Sheriff job?
You got Det Z who had a position created for him at a school?
You got someone now in there we have not heard a peep from?
You had Weaver come in from Fergunson?
You had PB drop the ball on investagating? PB gets a new job at CDT thus leaves Johnstown.
You had Erin N promoted?
You had MM get in (who was described as kicking the dirt where it needed kicked?))
You had KA given hours to vacate her position 2 hrs that is. (could be that she worked for Ray)?
BTW we have PF who has no real power.

Just step back and really exam this. Maybe we are just looking at the wrong things here. Where is the main HEAD QUATERS for the drug task as in DEA headquaters. If you have one double crosser then a whole ripple effect can happen with lots of P_I_N_G_S


JMOO--slips by to cover the eyes up. Blindfold myself again. I see nothing now. [/*]

Great post Cloudbuster and oh so true.

[Cloudbuster]

Thx D2d! I just keep seeing so many hands being held and heads that turn away. When its this bad it smells to the high heavens. This is not a conspairacy that we have here, but a pure all out troop withdrawal. You got one baaaa sheep following the other. The ripple tide flows in and the waves have gotton high, so high all must escape the storm. There are those that sit in positions that really are in what should I say? hmmm control.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

You had Dixon who supposedly retired- end up with a Sheriff job?
You got Det Z who had a position created for him at a school?
You got someone now in there we have not heard a peep from?
You had Weaver come in from Fergunson?
You had PB drop the ball on investagating? PB gets a new job at CDT thus leaves Johnstown.
You had Erin N promoted?
You had MM get in (who was described as kicking the dirt where it needed kicked?))



Dixon announced his retirement before RFG disappeared.

Z left after more than a year.

It's either Weaver or someone else, once Dixon leaves.

EN going and PB coming in seems to be outside of the realm of LE completely, but they change personnel at newspapers.

The DA's position would be filled by someone else in 8 months, had RFG not disappeared.


You had KA given hours to vacate her position 2 hrs that is. (could be that she worked for Ray)?
BTW we have PF who has no real power.




You also have what has been described as a "mudslinging campaign " waged by JKA against her new boss, MM. Again, some of JKA's activities after the disappearance are suspicious, but they don't point to murder.

There would also be the question of why? RFG was leaving in eight months; why would their a need for a coverup in this, and since the PSP were involved, how could something in Centre County lead them to be part of it?

[Cloudbuster]

JJ depends on what Ray was unto too. JJ where do funds and such come from for the county itself???? If one was to find something out and wanted something done about it then what? Does a ripple begin? Can that have a ping effect? You gotta really think about that one.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ depends on what Ray was unto too. JJ where do funds and such come from for the county itself???? If one was to find something out and wanted something done about it then what? Does a ripple begin? Can that have a ping effect? You gotta really think about that one.

Funds for the county generally come from property taxes.

I'm not entirely clear what else you are asking.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Thx D2d! I just keep seeing so many hands being held and heads that turn away. When its this bad it smells to the high heavens. This is not a conspairacy that we have here, but a pure all out troop withdrawal. You got one baaaa sheep following the other. The ripple tide flows in and the waves have gotton high, so high all must escape the storm. There are those that sit in positions that really are in what should I say? hmmm control. [/*]

Anytime CB...anytime!
And once again..you are 100% correct. And it really makes me mad that there really is NOTHING we can do about it..but stand by and watch it happen..(like a very bad car wreck)..

[Cloudbuster]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serendipitous1
http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=18950022&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=6


Copyright ? 1995 - 2007 Townnews.com All Rights Reserved. [/*][/QUOTE

]http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/01/01-25-05tdc/01-25-05dnews-11.asp
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/235441.html
Wonder how much Ray would be against this? But the money it could bring?
http://www.resourcerecoveryllc.com/company.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While Resource Recovery has not given any specific reasons for choosing this site, Gillette believes it is because it is cheap land with potentially easy access to Interstate 80 and possible access by rail as well......
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2004/12/12-07-04tdc/12-07-04dscihealth-01.asp

[Cloudbuster]

D2D your are most right! Its so very frustrating!!! I put links above this post that sorta goes with S1's post. T Corbett used to be in landfill business. Funny how many oppose this and such. I think RG would be highly against this too after all he did tip off
the DEP or EPA on a landfill issue before. Funny the INC is headed quatered or was from Lancaster? Another DA comes to mind?

MOO

[day2day]

It amazes me that Tom Corbett can be SO concerned about Mr. Gricar..yet 2+ years after he "vanished" Corbett has done nothing to help solve this case.

:shrug: it is as puzzling to me as pf crying crocodile tears on dateline and then doing nearly nothing to search for Mr. Gricar.

Whats wrong with these people..?


jmo....

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila



Dixon announced his retirement before RFG disappeared.

[/*]

I sure don't remember reading it...:shrug:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


I sure don't remember reading it...:shrug: [/*]

I believe it was in both news stories and the CDT Forum.

I;m in general agreement with your comment about Corbett, but I don't believe that he was in the landfill business.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I believe it was in both news stories and the CDT Forum.

I;m in general agreement with your comment about Corbett, but I don't believe that he was in the landfill business. [/*]

Dixon did not announce until after the disappearance (according to this article)

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_333427.html

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I believe it was in both news stories and the CDT Forum.

I;m in general agreement with your comment about Corbett, but I don't believe that he was in the landfill business. [/*]

Thanks JJ. I don't remember that at all--but i believe you!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Dixon did not announce until after the disappearance (according to this article)

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_333427.html [/*]

I think the key phrase in the that article was:

Dixon said he had been looking into retirement plans before the prosecutor vanished and that his potential departure would not affect the investigation.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I think the key phrase in the that article was:

Dixon said he had been looking into retirement plans before the prosecutor vanished and that his potential departure would not affect the investigation. [/*]

We were discussing about when he *announced* he was retiring....

keep up :D

[Cloudbuster]

Dixon might have said he plannedto retire but why leave out that he was actually going to Arizona to be a SHERIFF? Thats a little different than retiring?:D

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


We were discussing about when he *announced* he was retiring....

keep up :D [/*]

It was known prior to RFG's disappearance that Dixon was leaving; it wasn't RFG vanishes then Dixon springs a surprise.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Dixon might have said he plannedto retire but why leave out that he was actually going to Arizona to be a SHERIFF? Thats a little different than retiring?:D [/*]

He left that part out CB....:read:

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Dixon might have said he plannedto retire but why leave out that he was actually going to Arizona to be a SHERIFF? Thats a little different than retiring?:D [/*]He had the retirement loosely in process prior to Ray disappearing. What he did, while you may find it odd, is something I'm quite used to. It's called "double dipping" and is done by teachers, principals, supers, and the various levels of LE on a daily basis.

Basically, Dixon had his years in, but was still quite young. He "retired" and moved to AZ where he took another job. He is able to receive his pension, as well as his current, full sheriff's salary. In educational circles, it started out as controversial, but is now accepted practice, especially when it comes to districts who would possibly otherwise lose out on good teachers or administration. (I have one friend who's father makes almost 300k a year now, instead of his prior 200k salary. Who wouldn't take advantage of that?)

So, even though I thought it sucked that we had such a high level turnover early in Ray's case, I in no way whatsoever find it odd at all. It's common practice.

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks Tony!!! It makes more sense to me now. It's just in this case every little thing stands out and even the smallest things can be observed as out of the ordinary lol. If they had put he was going into a new job in Arizona even that would have looked suspious roflmao. Your explanation makes alot of sense.:seeya:

[Politigal]

Pete Bosak's response to my question

QIn your opinion, why does District Attorney Michael Madeira refuse to turn the case over to the Attorney General? And, doesn't that appear a little suspicious on his part?
Debbie Taylor, Arlington, TX 11/04/07

AHi Debbie and thanks for the question. It's not that Michael refused to hand over the investigation to the AG. The AG has said repeatedly, and Tom Corbett has told me personally, that his office has no more resources that he can bring to the table than what already has been done. Simply put, the state Attorney General's Office cannot offer anything more than what's already been done.
Pete Bosak 12/07/07

no more resources?????

what a crock

Just a new "set of eyes" alone would be worth it IMO

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Politigal
Pete Bosak's response to my question

QIn your opinion, why does District Attorney Michael Madeira refuse to turn the case over to the Attorney General? And, doesn't that appear a little suspicious on his part?
Debbie Taylor, Arlington, TX 11/04/07

AHi Debbie and thanks for the question. It's not that Michael refused to hand over the investigation to the AG. The AG has said repeatedly, and Tom Corbett has told me personally, that his office has no more resources that he can bring to the table than what already has been done. Simply put, the state Attorney General's Office cannot offer anything more than what's already been done.
Pete Bosak 12/07/07

no more resources?????

what a crock

Just a new "set of eyes" alone would be worth it IMO [/*]

I thought the justification for not turning it over was "failure to fit criteria," not lack of resources.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, the only things that I could firgure is that:

1. LE checked everything, and I don't think they did.

2. LE knows what happened and is covering it up, and I cannot think of any reason why. Even if they had evidence of some massive criminal activities on RFG's part (which I doubt), I cannot find any reason to do it.

[UndertheRadar]

I'm saying that the reason PB was given (or is giving) for rejecting the case doesn't seem to match the previous reason given for rejecting the case.

[Politigal]

This link that I posted in the links thread has several articles that deal with Bellefonte not relinquishing the case to anyone else

http://tinyurl.com/2zwjs2

[Politigal]

From my interpretation, it looks like Madeira is the hold up.

[Politigal]

Is there possibly some reason that Corbett wanted Madeira in office sooner or Gricar out sooner, than if Gricar had served out his term?

Corbett was endorsing Madeira in a big press conference 5/12/05

http://www.madeiraforda.com/

“Michael Madeira's dedication to making Centre County a safer place to live, work, and raise a family is unsurpassed. Michael's 14 years as a prosecutor - 12 as a top drug prosecutor in my office - make him not only ideally qualified to serve as District Attorney, but the best and clear choice to serve as Centre County's next District Attorney.”

– Hon. Tom Corbett,
Pennsylvania Attorney General

I know I'm grasping here...

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal
Is there possibly some reason that Corbett wanted Madeira in office sooner or Gricar out sooner, than if Gricar had served out his term?

Corbett was endorsing Madeira in a big press conference 5/12/05

http://www.madeiraforda.com/

“Michael Madeira's dedication to making Centre County a safer place to live, work, and raise a family is unsurpassed. Michael's 14 years as a prosecutor - 12 as a top drug prosecutor in my office - make him not only ideally qualified to serve as District Attorney, but the best and clear choice to serve as Centre County's next District Attorney.”

– Hon. Tom Corbett,
Pennsylvania Attorney General

I know I'm grasping here... [/*]

But Madeira still didn't get in office any sooner. Mark Smith was the DA until after the election. Do you mean he wanted someone else in office until Madeira was in, instead of RG? Maybe he had someone coming to trial and didn't want RG trying them? It couldn't be the drug case because Madeira was the one doing that case. Something else?

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, PB hasn't given me a confirmed reason on why the the AG won't handle the case. What he's said relates directly to the "better friend" comment, i.e. why a better friend thinks it was a walkaway. It deals with a motivation.

There was a possible, perhaps likely, motivation exhibited by RFG to walkaway, but, as I've said previously, we cannot "know" the minds of any of the principles. To me, finding out that RFG may have had a motivation for walking away, even from a good source, might increase the odds of walkaway, might boost the odds of walkaway, but not hugely.

If you remember TOL friend, let's assume that that the source was much better, and that there was more than one source. That might be enough to establish a motive of why RFG walked away. That just refers to motive, but not the means of walking away.

Means are the key in this case, not that there was some motive.

[Cloudbuster]

See I knew they thought he walked away! Why don't they prove that then???? I will stick to my inconvential ways and stay with he did NOT walk away.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
See I knew they thought he walked away! Why don't they prove that then???? I will stick to my inconvential ways and stay with he did NOT walk away. [/*]

CB did you get it fixed? Anything I can do from here?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
See I knew they thought he walked away! Why don't they prove that then???? I will stick to my inconvential ways and stay with he did NOT walk away. [/*]

Somebody thinks he walked away, but that's been in the CDT Forum for a few months, at least.

I'm far from the point where I'd declare RFG walked away, but I give it a lot greater likelihood that TG.

[Cloudbuster]

I can't get it fixed lol. I cleared my pm's out lol. Its okay I'll figure it out tommorrow (Ithink) roflmao!! It stinks to be computer illerate lol.

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, last I looked, **Pgal** was the one who wrote the question to Bosak, not you, and that's what we were talking about, his answer to **her** question.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Somebody thinks he walked away, but that's been in the CDT Forum for a few months, at least.

I'm far from the point where I'd declare RFG walked away, but I give it a lot greater likelihood that TG. [/*]

JJ I used to think that RG walked away and that because of the rumor mill off this board. My SO heard it from a higher up not in that area though. I think they really believe that too. I don't ---based on what you would call no evidence in which I see differently. I even used to look at the Texas photo and thought it was Ray but seriously I no longer believe he walked away and this time you won't see me change that. Im past the three theories illusional message we all bought into. It was intended to be that way. A illusion created to throw everyone into a spin so perfect it was that even the best are still stumped on it but not some of us. A really good link you can find CSI classes for free and they have a good section on it about the vechicle evidence is at this link: http://www.free-ed.net/sweethaven/CrimeJustice/CSI/default.asp
For those looking for free online classes and criminal jusice ect you can pick your course at this link and the CSI forensics is on there too. Good link.
http://www.free-ed.net/free-ed/FreeEdMain01.asp:read:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


JJ I used to think that RG walked away and that because of the rumor mill off this board. My SO heard it from a higher up not in that area though. I think they really believe that too. I don't ---based on what you would call no evidence in which I see differently. I even used to look at the Texas photo and thought it was Ray but seriously I no longer believe he walked away and this time you won't see me change that. Im past the three theories illusional message we all bought into. It was intended to be that way. A illusion created to throw everyone into a spin so perfect it was that even the best are still stumped on it but not some of us. A really good link you can find CSI classes for free and they have a good section on it about the vechicle evidence is at this link: http://www.free-ed.net/sweethaven/CrimeJustice/CSI/default.asp
For those looking for free online classes and criminal jusice ect you can pick your course at this link and the CSI forensics is on there too. Good link.
http://www.free-ed.net/free-ed/FreeEdMain01.asp:read: [/*]

I think that, if this is a walkaway, there would be evidence; LE, so far as I've been able to determine, hasn't checked the two likely methods.

[UndertheRadar]

For the record, this is the apparent disconnect I'm talking about, not JJ's arm chair psychology regarding whether or not we can analyze motives (which is the subject for another post entirely):

In January, 2006, we have this from the AG's office:

Kevin Harley, spokesman for the state Attorney General Tom Corbett, said his boss feels the investigation has been handled well, and that Madeira hasn't made any requests for more help.

The only way the case could be referred to Corbett's office is if there's a lack of investigative resources or if there's a potential conflict of interest in the probe, Harley said, and neither applies in the case.

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=163&pid=185774&mode=threaded&show=&st=&

Now, approaching January 2008, we have PB reporting that TC says the AG's office lacks any resources to provide to the investigation (not a question of whether the current investigation by the BPD lacks investigative resources), and making no mention of potential conflict of interest in the case. My understanding is that the reasons offered in January 2006, whether we agree with them or not, are policy of the AG's office. Why the change in explanation as to why they will not become involved in the case?

[Politigal]

Madeira hasn't made any requests for more help.

bottom line

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
For the record, this is the apparent disconnect I'm talking about, not JJ's arm chair psychology regarding whether or not we can analyze motives (which is the subject for another post entirely):

In January, 2006, we have this from the AG's office:

Kevin Harley, spokesman for the state Attorney General Tom Corbett, said his boss feels the investigation has been handled well, and that Madeira hasn't made any requests for more help.

The only way the case could be referred to Corbett's office is if there's a lack of investigative resources or if there's a potential conflict of interest in the probe, Harley said, and neither applies in the case.

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=163&pid=185774&mode=threaded&show=&st=&

Now, approaching January 2008, we have PB reporting that TC says the AG's office lacks any resources to provide to the investigation (not a question of whether the current investigation by the BPD lacks investigative resources), and making no mention of potential conflict of interest in the case. My understanding is that the reasons offered in January 2006, whether we agree with them or not, are policy of the AG's office. Why the change in explanation as to why they will not become involved in the case? [/*]

UTR they will not touch this case with good reasons and I'll put money on that if I was a betting kind. I know how Mr Mcnight could get involved by using something but I don't think he even thought of it and Im not bringing it up on here. I do feel Ray trusted Mcnight. I have thought long and hard on how he could help and it's a longshot. The others have a big need to keep this investagation right where it is and nobody questions the real reasons why? This case is not about something minor. There is alot more to its power. PF held no power and I do believe they didn't go indepth with her because there is unknown possible evidence that says something else. They never had the need to go after investagating her. What I believe they have is pointing to something MUCH bigger. They would never protect someone like PF even if they knew her. Because they didn't the public is. I do believe it's not always the way it looks. I think this is one of those cases. Try to keep in mind that PF DID want a poly as also Lara did. PF's poly was over 3 hours long. Knowing something and being the k is 2 different things. :beer:

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Politigal
Madeira hasn't made any requests for more help.

bottom line [/*]

And he is not going to. TL told ya just enough on that angle.
MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


And he is not going to. TL told ya just enough on that angle.
MOO [/*]

TL?

My understanding is that Cobert can do it on his own; he's not. MM can make the request, but it might not be granted; he won't.

Either can impanel a grand jury; neither will.

From what has been reported, other than PEF and BJL, friends/staff have not been investigated. ???

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


TL?

My understanding is that Cobert can do it on his own; he's not. MM can make the request, but it might not be granted; he won't.

Either can impanel a grand jury; neither will.

From what has been reported, other than PEF and BJL, friends/staff have not been investigated. ??? [/*]

TL is Lee and he did say why but was a bit cryptic in his wording choice.
Corbe$t and M$M lets say link into that power quaterback lineup. There is always someone that sits higher in powers. If there is not a team effort then you need to look at the why?? Why are all the players not working for the good of the team is a good question which can be answered inside oneself. In this case being the way it is then opposite team needs to grab the ball and find whatever manuever that can be used to run with that ball. In this case it looks like Mcnight and a few others could if they would think of where is there a ball to pick up and run with it which changes the field and players. There is a ball and it's a longshot if only they would think where that ball is to run with it and possibly make a first touch down. Ray would have done it for them in my own feelings. Are they willing to preceed to the lineup and take that ball? I don't know.

[Cinderella]

Are you saying that Taji Verbal Lee might know something? :confused: If so then they should have someone undercover and go in and talk to him. That person though might be in jeopardy.

The newspaper used to do things like that now they are paid off.

[Cloudbuster]

Im not refering about TL knowing something in general. Im talking about him saying about the dirt being kicked where it needed kicked and he referenced that to M$M. He said he was a smart man. That is cryptic but not that hard to understand a little bit about that meaning. Funny how TL wasn't mad at M$M?
MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Im not refering about TL knowing something in general. Im talking about him saying about the dirt being kicked where it needed kicked and he referenced that to M$M. He said he was a smart man. That is cryptic but not that hard to understand a little bit about that meaning. Funny how TL wasn't mad at M$M?
MOO [/*]

It almost sounnds like you are suggesting a conspiracy involving MM and Cobert. I would, by necessity, have to involve Smith, because he could have acted in the nine months he was acting DA.

That is a pretty tall order.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


It almost sounnds like you are suggesting a conspiracy involving MM and Cobert. I would, by necessity, have to involve Smith, because he could have acted in the nine months he was acting DA.

That is a pretty tall order. [/*]

Im not suggesting any conspiracy. I think if it looks like that it's more that TC and M$M stand out by their actions or should I say lack of actions? WHY will they do nothing when they can? It's no conspiracy it's a why no action for one of their own? Im not real intelligent to understand Smith in what he could or couldn't do. I would be happy if you could explain that part?:)
Ted Mcnight does have a ball he could use and Im surprised he hasn't seen it. I do give him and BB credit for their vocals!!! HMM I wish TMc would think but Im sure he is not on here to undersatnd what Im talking about.:rolleyes:
clue to that one is: what got dropped real fast? Trust me there is a reason it did too. That something is the ball Ted would need to enter the field zone. Funny how even Pete dropped something so quickly lol.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All truth goes through three steps: First it is ridiculed, second ,it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self evident.

[Serendipitous1]

The failure of MS and MM to recognize (and act on) the potential for an apparent conflict of interest may be fodder for a civil suit some day. But the failure of TC to lead, press, cajole and, if necessary, circumvent (or even try) is truly a disgrace. MOO

[Cloudbuster]

S1 that's how I see it too. It really raises red flags as to why? In my mind there are only 2 possible reasons. :read:

[Cinderella]

Oh TC has such a successful web page filled with victories in getting the small little drug people, but a giant of a man, Ray Gricar doesn't matter. Ray Gricar upheld the law, but he is not as important as getting small drug people.

Isn't it strange in politics how everyone is only for themselves, the hell with the others. None of the judges in Centre County seem to care or they would put some pressure on.

The only thing that I can think of is that there must be some very high names on the list of why Ray disappeared. It is too bad that corruption rules Pennsylvania. It would be nice to say that I am proud to live in Pennsylvania. Maybe someday we can get some honest leaders.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Oh TC has such a successful web page filled with victories in getting the small little drug people, but a giant of a man, Ray Gricar doesn't matter. Ray Gricar upheld the law, but he is not as important as getting small drug people.

Isn't it strange in politics how everyone is only for themselves, the hell with the others. None of the judges in Centre County seem to care or they would put some pressure on.



Cind, what gets me, in regard to walkaway, is that some of what they could check isn't even that costly. Looking at all sales within a 10 mile radius of Lewisburg, maybe, would take 20 man hours. Checking that close circle of friends/associates/former SO's, is a pool of perhaps 25 people, most of them have activities involving taxpayer dollars.

I know if LE asked me, where were you on 4/14/05, I'd say, "Posting and here is where I was posting, just to help you guys out." If they wanted to check further, they could see all my posts prior to that were from the same computer, a desk top.

It's not a lot of effort, it's not incredibly costly, and if it is a dead end, it drops the chances on walkaway down dramatically. If it isn't a dead end, LE announces the evidence and says, "Here is some evidence of a walkaway, which isn't criminal. We'll no longer investigate the case."

[Cinderella]

I agree J. J., but no one seems to care. Ray really has been forgotten by most people. It is a very sad case. If they are not going to turn this case over then we should know why not.

I think that if I was Lara, I would start a lawsuit against Centre County and against the state of Pennsylvania. Then that would get the ball rolling. Ray was supposed to be working. I think that Lara could win big time. Then she might have the needed money to find her dad. If I where her, I would go for the best attorney. I am sure that she would not have any trouble finding someone who is honest and willing to help. Don't get anyone from Pennsylvania. Get someone big. Your dad deserves it.

Lara if you read this, I hope that you go for it. I am sure that you will have many people backing you.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I agree J. J., but no one seems to care. Ray really has been forgotten by most people. It is a very sad case. If they are not going to turn this case over then we should know why not.

I think that if I was Lara, I would start a lawsuit against Centre County and against the state of Pennsylvania. Then that would get the ball rolling. Ray was supposed to be working. I think that Lara could win big time. Then she might have the needed money to find her dad. If I where her, I would go for the best attorney. I am sure that she would not have any trouble finding someone who is honest and willing to help. Don't get anyone from Pennsylvania. Get someone big. Your dad deserves it.

Lara if you read this, I hope that you go for it. I am sure that you will have many people backing you.

And her grounds would be?

[Cinderella]

Her grounds would be that Bellefonte, Centre County, and Pennsylvania are holding onto this case and won't send this case anywhere else. Conflict of Interest because people are biased and too close to Ray to make unpartial decisions concerning his whereabouts. They have not done everything they could do to solve this case. They didn't even interview or completely check out all leads.

Defamation of character. Just because there are mental health issues in the family they labeled him at committing suicide.

Workplace Safety denied. Opened Courthouse doors at night,
Shrubs and bushes surrounding parking lot outside. Area not lit enough. Especially with prison being behind at the time.

They did not have a real educated Detective working on this case.


Ray was last seen 4/14/05.

J.J. You should know more about what she could sue for than I do.

If those don't work, good lawyers always have ways to sue.

I bet if she did sue, then things might start to happen.

Oh and her pain and anguish over how this case has been handled.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Her grounds would be that Bellefonte, Centre County, and Pennsylvania are holding onto this case and won't send this case anywhere else. Conflict of Interest because people are biased and too close to Ray to make unpartial decisions concerning his whereabouts.

Not required, and the AG won't take it.


They have not done everything they could do to solve this case. They didn't even interview or completely check out all leads.


No do they in nearly any case.


Defamation of character. Just because there are mental health issues in the family they labeled him at committing suicide.


The only thing I've come from LE is that there was no mental problem.


Workplace Safety denied. Opened Courthouse doors at night,
Shrubs and bushes surrounding parking lot outside. Area not lit enough. Especially with prison being behind at the time.


None of which can be proven to be involved in this case.

They did not have a real educated Detective working on this case.


Ray was last seen 4/14/05.


RFG was last seen by someone he knew at 3:00 PM; RFG last spoke to someone he knew on 4/15/05 at @ 11:12 AM. RFG was last photographed on 4/14/05.


If those don't work, good lawyers always have ways to sue.

I bet if she did sue, then things might start to happen.


Yes, she'd pay attorney's bills; these things are probably not grounds.


Oh and her pain and anguish over how this case has been handled.

Again, no grounds.

[Cinderella]

J. J. in Phila
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3991

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cinderella
Her grounds would be that Bellefonte, Centre County, and Pennsylvania are holding onto this case and won't send this case anywhere else. Conflict of Interest because people are biased and too close to Ray to make unpartial decisions concerning his whereabouts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J.J.: Not required, and the AG won't take it.

CIND: Why Not? They will pay lots of money to haul the acid rock from I-99, and especially pay the people that did the construction in the first place to remove it. Employees stated that they knew that the acid rock was there to begin with and was told by employer if they said anything about the acid rock, they would lose their job. Overheard several workers for the company talking about it.

CIND: Then why do DA’s and Judges step down from a case if they are close or related?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CIND: They have not done everything they could do to solve this case. They didn't even interview or completely check out all leads.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J.J.: No do they in nearly any case.

CIND: It appears that they didn't want to from the beginning.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CIND: Defamation of character. Just because there are mental health issues in the family they labeled him at committing suicide.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J. J: The only thing I've come from LE is that there was no mental problem.

CIND: PLEASE READ CNN TRANSCRIPT AT BOTTOM
Also they have Gricar walking away from job and family
Committing Suicide
Having Wild Weekend

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CIND: Workplace Safety denied. Opened Courthouse doors at night, Shrubs and bushes surrounding parking lot outside. Area not lit enough. Especially with prison being behind at the time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J.J.: None of which can be proven to be involved in this case.

CIND: I witnessed myself the shrubs and bushes out back. It is not very safe for someone coming out of the courthouse. Someone could be hiding in the bushes. JKA stated that the courthouse doors are propped open at night by the people cleaning. Anyone could have gotten in the courthouse. The parking light behind the courthouse is not properly lit.

CIND: Remember the book that Mark Smith found on his desk, WHO PUT IT THERE?

CIND: I bet they have security now. They wouldn't want someone else to go missing.

CIND: They did not have a real educated Detective working on this case.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CIND: Ray was last seen 4/14/05.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J.J.: RFG was last seen by someone he knew at 3:00 PM; RFG last spoke to someone he knew on 4/15/05 at @ 11:12 AM. RFG was last photographed on 4/14/05.

CIND: THAT IS WHAT PF STATES...PROVE IT!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CIND: If those don't work, good lawyers always have ways to sue.

I bet if she did sue, then things might start to happen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J.J.: Yes, she'd pay attorney's bills; these things are probably not grounds.

CIND: If she lost it still would have been worth it. If someone from McDonalds bought coffee and spilled it on themselves and burned their leg, I think that a jury might be on Lara's side. When the jurors would hear how the case has been handled, they might be upset.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CIND: Oh and her pain and anguish over how this case has been handled.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J.J.: Again, no grounds.

CIND: Remember the woman with the coffee that caused her own pain.

Here is the link to the CNN, Nancy Grace story:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0601/16/ng.01.html

It is too bad that Nancy Grace had to argue against them also.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella

CIND: Why Not? They will pay lots of money to haul the acid rock from I-99, and especially pay the people that did the construction in the first place to remove it. Employees stated that they knew that the acid rock was there to begin with and was told by employer if they said anything about the acid rock, they would lose their job. Overheard several workers for the company talking about it.


Cind, whether the county or state has moneyt to do something else has no bearing on this.


CIND: Then why do DA’s and Judges step down from a case if they are close or related?


Under this theory, no judge could ever hear a case because they all know someone who works at the DA's office, or worked their themselves.




CIND: It appears that they didn't want to from the beginning.


No, it doesn't. As I've pointed out, they actually went out faster than if I had gone missing.


CIND: Defamation of character. Just because there are mental health issues in the family they labeled him at committing suicide.





CIND: PLEASE READ CNN TRANSCRIPT AT BOTTOM
Also they have Gricar walking away from job and family
Committing Suicide
Having Wild Weekend



None of which even comes close to defamation. Also, most people in the public cannot sucessfully sue on defamation.


CIND: I witnessed myself the shrubs and bushes out back. It is not very safe for someone coming out of the courthouse. Someone could be hiding in the bushes. JKA stated that the courthouse doors are propped open at night by the people cleaning. Anyone could have gotten in the courthouse. The parking light behind the courthouse is not properly lit.


None of which can be shown to have contributed in any way to RFG's disappearance.


CIND: Remember the book that Mark Smith found on his desk, WHO PUT IT THERE?


Possibly someone on the staff, including RFG


CIND: Ray was last seen 4/14/05.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J.J.: RFG was last seen by someone he knew at 3:00 PM; RFG last spoke to someone he knew on 4/15/05 at @ 11:12 AM. RFG was last photographed on 4/14/05.

CIND: THAT IS WHAT PF STATES...PROVE IT!



No, that's what Fenton says. For proof, you have more than enough to show he was fifty miles away on 4/15/05, in terms of a civil case.



CIND: If she lost it still would have been worth it. If someone from McDonalds bought coffee and spilled it on themselves and burned their leg, I think that a jury might be on Lara's side. When the jurors would hear how the case has been handled, they might be upset.


Cind, Centre County is not McDonald's. About the only thing that could be shown is that LE did not follow up on walkaway, which would be a voluntarily act on his part.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CIND: Oh and her pain and anguish over how this case has been handled.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J.J.: Again, no grounds.

CIND: Remember the woman with the coffee that caused her own pain.

Here is the link to the CNN, Nancy Grace story:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0601/16/ng.01.html

It is too bad that Nancy Grace had to argue against them also.

No, the claim was that the top of the cup was not secure and that the vendor served a product in a negligent manner, i.e., unnecessarily hot.

And judging from the Duke rape case, I'd probably rather take my chances with Bryant or Manchester. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Exactly how much MORE does the AG office need to move forward with this case? It's NOT 'potential' conflict of interest; it's a fact.



There would probably have to be a showing, at least, that it was likely that someone on staff, possibly the DA or ADA, actually committed a crime, or that the likely suspect was so involved with the judiciary that he would personally know all the parties (I'm thinking back to the O'Kicki case, and a recent one in the area). I'm not even sure if PEF, as an employee of the DA's Office, would be considered a conflict of interest.

We don't even have a situation where anyone can claim that a crime took place involving RFG. At best, we have a destroyed laptop, that could be paid for.

[Politigal]

I'm curious and wasn't sure what thread to pose this question, but is it possible that potential suspects in this case have "lawyered up" already and maybe have refused to take polygraphs or take 2nd polygraphs, etc?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

There would probably have to be a showing, at least, that it was likely that someone on staff, possibly the DA or ADA, actually committed a crime, or that the likely suspect was so involved with the judiciary that he would personally know all the parties (I'm thinking back to the O'Kicki case, and a recent one in the area). I'm not even sure if PEF, as an employee of the DA's Office, would be considered a conflict of interest.

We don't even have a situation where anyone can claim that a crime took place involving RFG. At best, we have a destroyed laptop, that could be paid for. [/*]Nonsense. There does not have to be an actual conflict of interest. Notwithstanding some of the other circumstances in this case, the fact that PF was employed in that office was, alone, sufficient reason to have requested the AG's office to investigate...from the very beginning. Everyone has failed Ray Gricar...right up the line. MOO

[Cinderella]

I wish that some well known moral lawyer would help Lara out.
There needs to be action and I don't see it happening unless MM and LE and TC hands are forced. I hope that Lara can put the pressure on and quit listening to their lies.

I believe that we could see some real action start to happen.

Also there are many attorneys that work only if they get money back from the case.

I am sure that there are a lot of attorneys out there that feel that Ray has been a victim of the system.

Would there be any attorneys reading this that could point Lara in the right direction and possibly take this case on? The people that love Ray would stand behind you.

Enough of this stonewalling.

I wonder what would happen if Tom Corbett went missing. I bet there would be no stone unturned.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Nonsense. There does not have to be an actual conflict of interest. Notwithstanding some of the other circumstances in this case, the fact that PF was employed in that office was, alone, sufficient reason to have requested the AG's office to investigate...from the very beginning. Everyone has failed Ray Gricar...right up the line. MOO [/*]

I can think of two cases where the AG's Office stepped in and took over a case. One was a court employee and the other was a judge.

There were even a couple of cases of judges being robbed in Phila; the judge was the victim. IIRC, the AG's Office did not step in for that one either.

Should the AG''s Office take the case over? I think they should. Do they have to? Probably not.

I get the distinct feeling that the AG's office doesn't want to and now two DA's don't want to give it up.

[Cloudbuster]

S1 is right!! JJ the question is WHY???? I also wonder if MM only wanted that job just this term? Makes you wonder if he wanted it cause he had some purpose?
Is that why he was so ignorant with KA? Good question is did TC need him in that position? You know a purpose so this case goes and stays just like it is.(dirt Kicking). 2 peas in a pod.
Oh I know that stuff don't happen right?? WAKE UP welcome to the real world it happens all the time. Their INACTIONS even show that for crying out loud!!
You can't see what your not looking at.

hypothecial theories only.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
S1 is right!! JJ the question is WHY???? I also wonder if MM only wanted that job just this term? Makes you wonder if he wanted it cause he had some purpose?
Is that why he was so ignorant with KA? Good question is did TC need him in that position? You know a purpose so this case goes and stays just like it is.(dirt Kicking). 2 peas in a pod.
Oh I know that stuff don't happen right?? WAKE UP welcome to the real world it happens all the time. Their INACTIONS even show that for crying out loud!!
You can't see what your not looking at.

hypothecial theories only. [/*]

The question is specifically about a "conflict of interest." We don't even have evidence of a crime, much less that any employee of the judiciary or of the DA's office might be involved in committing it.

Now, that said, it would exceptionally wise, IMO, for MM to request help. It would exceptionally wisde for either MM or TC to all a grand jury to if there was a crime. At worse, either can say, **We sent this out to a panel of citizens, a grand jury, and they couldn't find anything more either.** There is a difference between doing the "wise" thing and doing something that is required. In this unique case, they are not required to do the wise thing.

[Cloudbuster]

We got plenty of evidence of a crime. No activity or finances? two and a half plus years? We have evidence he had to be kidnapped everything of his was left behind car-phone-laptop.

I still want to know why T$C and M$M won't do nothing? RED FLAGS THERE Im telling you.

IMO they know and thats why they won't do nothing. If you already know then you have no need to do anything right? grrr

JMHO.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ for crying out loud the PSP review board was a total what???? coverup? Why don't ya ask any paper why they couldn't get in or when they got word of it. Ask them why they would need to submit their questions in advance???

CAN YOU SAY C O V E R U P ?
SAY CONSPIRACY meaning conspire to keep the public OUT.
AGAIN WHY????

moo moo

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
We got plenty of evidence of a crime. No activity or finances? two and a half plus years? We have evidence he had to be kidnapped everything of his was left behind car-phone-laptop.

I still want to know why T$C and M$M won't do nothing? RED FLAGS THERE Im telling you.

IMO they know and thats why they won't do nothing. If you already know then you have no need to do anything right? grrr

JMHO. [/*]

CB, what evidence of a crime, other than possibly suicide (which they can't prosecute) is there?

Maybe someone committed murder. Maybe RFG walked away, which isn't criminal. You went through this with a relative.

As for "C O V E R U P," why do think I'm suggesting a grand jury? They can look at this independently.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ Im just frustrated. This case is different than what I went thru trust me . I used to think that but not now. I been down all the rumor mill which is usually false but this time it's different. Everything is wrong here and everyone failed Ray in many ways. Puppets that are cowards is what I call it. They turned their backs because of being a coward IMHO.

We are the only voices left for Ray and I sense they can't wait for the board to get shut. Im tired of hands are tied crap. The puppets beat to the puppetmasters strings.

One day everyone dies and just remember YOU will face what you did not do trust me on that! Im sure you've gotton your own signs from that already. If nothing in your life is going right believe me there is a reason. (Not meant to you JJ). Those who read know exactly what Im talking about.

MOO:cuss:

[Serendipitous1]

http://cbs3.com/local/Richard.Gricar.Centre.2.297625.html

MOO - I know this is just another thrown together news media article (complete with an out of date photo). But what particularly struck me was that the AG’s flack appeared to also speak for MM, in saying the only way the case could be referred was if there was a lack of investigative resources or a potential conflict of interest in the probe, and that neither applied in this case.

It seems to me that this was MS’s and then MM’s call. But now I am wondering if it was not TC’s directive (or suggestion)...and, if so, why that would be. Stick to the official refrain (missing person case) and do not publicly acknowledge even an assumption of foul play. That way, the obvious potential conflict of interest is avoided. There has to be a good reason for what otherwise can only be viewed as nonsensical posturing by the DA and AG.

[gstickley]

Bravo, S1! Bravo!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
http://cbs3.com/local/Richard.Gricar.Centre.2.297625.html


It seems to me that this was MS’s and then MM’s call. But now I am wondering if it was not TC’s directive (or suggestion)...and, if so, why that would be. Stick to the official refrain (missing person case) and do not publicly acknowledge even an assumption of foul play. That way, the obvious potential conflict of interest is avoided. There has to be a good reason for what otherwise can only be viewed as nonsensical posturing by the DA and AG. [/*]

Why wouldn't they assume that foul play was even possible?

And why would initially was the "the bar split" between suicide and walkaway?

It's like they are saying, **We know what happened, but we're not going to tell.**

[Cloudbuster]

Lets take a look at what Lee had to say:
That was your legacy," Lunsford said to Lee just before he read his ruling. "You ruined lives and you ruined your own life, all because of greed."

Lee argued with Lunsford, saying the prosecution targeted him and denied him a fair trial.

((((("This case turned out to be a political grand slam -- a lot of people got new jobs because of my case," Lee said. "It wasn't about right or wrong here, it was about a conviction."))))))

As Lunsford read Lee his rights to appeal, Lee rebutted, announcing that he already started the process.

"It doesn't matter what you sentence," Lee told the judge in his statement. "Eventually I'll either be sitting in front of you again or be on the streets ... I'll be seeing you guys again real soon."

Prosecutor Dave Gorman said Lee's appeal would not be successful.

"This was a very clean trial," he said. "The ruling the judge made ensured there would be no errors."

Lee addressed Lunsford, the Centre County District Attorney's office, the Pennsylvania Assistant Attorney General, Goreman and undercover agents before he was sentenced. He accused all parties of conspiring against him.

((("I was wondering why you don't use the Bible anymore when you say you swear to tell the whole truth, nothin' but the truth, but now I know," Lee said.)))

(((Within the 20 minutes he spoke to the court, he also expressed his aggravation toward the prosecutors.)))

^^^^"I think I made my point clear that Dave Gorman is an idiot," Lee said. "Mike Madeira is not an idiot. He is an intelligent person; he knows how to kick the dirt where it needs to be kicked to keep things covered."^^^^^^???????
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2006/07/07-19-06tdc/07-19-06dnews-02.asp


Now look on the AG page at Operation Sunburst and see where it centered in Lewisburg ect.
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=715
Corbett said prosecutors?? and agents??? continued to present evidence and testimony before a Statewide Investigating Grand Jury following the 2004 arrests, resulting in the recommendation of the criminal charges filed today.

Notice in the article 80 officers worked this. The ya had, SJ refresh me Ungard incident ect.



Print This
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More Local
October 22, 2005


40 arrested in drug sweep

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By Jaime North
The Daily Item
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LEWISBURG — Approximately 40 suspected local drug dealers were arrested Friday in connection with a major drug trafficking ring that funneled crack cocaine from Philadelphia to the Valley.

More arrests were continuing throughout the afternoon, according to state Attorney General Tom Corbett. The apprehensions were the second phase of a two-year investigation named Operation SUN-Burst, which netted 22 suspected dealers last October.

"We believe that today's arrests combined with last year have completely dismantled this well-organized drug network," Mr. Corbett said Friday morning during a press conference at the Union County Government Center. "This wide-reaching organization distributed and sold as much as $2 million worth of crack cocaine per year, serving as a major drug pipeline from Philadelphia to area counties."

Authorities said that the cocaine was allegedly processed, distributed and sold as crack cocaine in Lewisburg, Sunbury, Selinsgrove and Milton among other communities in the Valley.

"The other shoe has dropped," Mr. Corbett said. "This is the second portion to the initial part of our grand jury investigation."

Among the local arrests were suspected mid-level and street-level dealers of the trafficking network. Nearly 30 were in custody before noon Friday, Mr. Corbett said. They were arraigned by District Judge Leo Armbruster in Lewisburg, and placed in local county jails with many heading to Union County jail.

Investigators identified Demitrius "Nate" Green, of Philadelphia, as the alleged kingpin of the operation. Three others from Philadelphia served as lieutenants. They each have pleaded guilty to federal drug charges and are awaiting sentencing, Mr. Corbett said.

Mr. Green, also facing federal drug charges, will go to trial in December.


http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:KbXnHclJGaQJ:archive.dailyitem.com/archive/2005/1022/local/stories/01local.htm+Operation+Sunburst+Tom+Corbett&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&ie=UTF-8

I also hate to point this out but Carla did say" He stumbled upon information that, unknowingly was BIGGER than other investagations he'd been involved in ", she said. She added that she thinks there was more than one person involved, and they may have been UPSET about an investatgation Gricar was MOUNTING.

Another article she said She didnt rule out drug trafficking, and said Gricar's work interferred with the kidnappers BUSINESS ARRANGEMENTS, one she suggested has gone on for YEARS. ???

Just something to look at.
MOO a possibility.

Again why destroy those records of ongoing investagation hmmm?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Why wouldn't they assume that foul play was even possible? And why would initially was the "the bar split" between suicide and walkaway? It's like they are saying, **We know what happened, but we're not going to tell.** [/*]Or, **this is how we should handle this.** What would be the advantage(s) of dodging a state-run investigation?

[Serendipitous1]

MOO - MM is playing ball...just as MS did. But for what purpose...to what end? Is TC part of the solution...or the problem?

[Cloudbuster]

S1 it's strange you asked that question and 2 nights ago in a dream there was this BIG touch screen in front of me and all I kept touching was the square that read only this: AG and I kept doing that over and over until I woke up. I know what AG represents thats obvious but what is the meaning????Maybe TC might know something we don't.

One thing that bugs at me is inside myself I know RG didn't meet with a druglord but with someone he knew and wanted to talk???
Problem is it feels like it involved more than one thing but yet centered around some kind of drug investagation. Thats why the case involving Ungard stands out along with operation sunburst phase ll. I can't see RG getting involved with a drug investagation unless it also involved high level corruption as in what we seen in the 43 vechicles and records destroyed. Weirdly one psychic I went to told me in all this is a Canadian connection somewhere. wasn't one or more LE officers involved in taking vechicle for a canadian trip? Weird but who knows. Something in all this feels like a Bingo. From the beginning i always felt something similiar to all that but wasn't able to pin point it then but things look a little different now.

Here is 2 things I was reading just a little interesting.
http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPosting/CWealth/out/612MD04_4-5-05.pdf


Interesting here:
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/scranton-pa/TFDLBD293GI9PMSDI
:read:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
<Snip>
Weirdly one psychic I went to told me in all this is a Canadian connection somewhere. wasn't one or more LE officers involved in taking vechicle for a canadian trip? Weird but who knows. Something in all this feels like a Bingo. From the beginning i always felt something similiar to all that but wasn't able to pin point it then but things look a little different now.[/*]Well, I was drawn to Celine Dion tonight. She is Canadian, IIRC.

[Politigal]

The Michigan sighting was 10 miles from the Canadian border

http://www.centredaily.com/138/story/3784.html

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - MM is playing ball...just as MS did. But for what purpose...to what end? Is TC part of the solution...or the problem? [/*]

I think it might be a simple case of saving face.

The investigation was pure horse hockey (euphemistically speaking) and if they turned it over to anyone else, that would become vividly evident (as if it wasn't already to many of us.)

Maybe Logic has been looking for the wrong end of the horse all this time

[Cloudbuster]

Celine it don't feel right lol. I did watch your video it hit the heart!!! The Michigan sighting don't feel right either. For something to feel right it gets my stomach to act up for me then I know Im heading the right way. (Bathroom) lol My stomach is overly sensitive and BOY oh boy does it cause me enough problems roflmao. All my life everything hits me right in the guts. Its making all kind of noises now lol. Must be cause Im on the board lol. Seriously I knew that chumps was joking me and how I knew that was my stomach and yea its okay to laugh!!! I guess everyones instincts are different and mine I must say when God created instincts I think mine are in 2 areas one going in and one coming out roflmao!!! The tissue can be expensive lol.:santa:

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Politigal


I think it might be a simple case of saving face.

The investigation was pure horse hockey (euphemistically speaking) and if they turned it over to anyone else, that would become vividly evident (as if it wasn't already to many of us.)

Maybe Logic has been looking for the wrong end of the horse all this time [/*]

Pgal LW has hit on the horse in another way. LW's rocks with the heart and I love you are correct. I can't explain that but it is true. I wouldn't even know how to explain it. I believe we are going to know it all eventually.

face saving hmmm it don't feel right. What seems right is something else.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

I think it might be a simple case of saving face. The investigation was pure horse hockey (euphemistically speaking) and if they turned it over to anyone else, that would become vividly evident (as if it wasn't already to many of us.)

Maybe Logic has been looking for the wrong end of the horse all this time [/*]I think you are wrong...on both counts. But I have no answer either.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I think you are wrong...on both counts. But I have no answer either. [/*]

I would hope that I am wrong -- that an excellent investigation has gone on - behind the scenes...

but considering Tony's reported frustration, I don't believe that's the case.

[J. J. in Phila]

The problem, as I see it, is that there would have to be multiple sources to suppress this "big secret," if it exists.

First you have the BPD, with both Dixon and Weaver sitting on it.

Second, you have to have the PSP sitting on it.

Third, you have to have the DA's office, MS and then MM, sitting on it.

Fourth, in all probability, TC has to be sitting on it.

They all have to keep it from PEF (presumably) and TG, and the press.

[Cloudbuster]

What feels right is like a story:
One king rules it all:
The kings men are ruled by the king:
The puppets will do what the king says:
They all gain IMO.

They will work as a whole for the good of the wealthy kingdom.

MOO

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
The problem, as I see it, is that there would have to be multiple sources to suppress this "big secret," if it exists.

First you have the BPD, with both Dixon and Weaver sitting on it. Second, you have to have the PSP sitting on it. Third, you have to have the DA's office, MS and then MM, sitting on it. Fourth, in all probability, TC has to be sitting on it. They all have to keep it from PEF (presumably) and TG, and the press. [/*]Well...there you go. It is not that difficult to get cooperation. MOO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Well...there you go. It is not that difficult to get cooperation. MOO [/*]

I still believe it's due to a lack of evidence....

but I also believe it's law enforcement's fault they didn't look where they should have from the get-go.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

I still believe it's due to a lack of evidence....but I also believe it's law enforcement's fault they didn't look where they should have from the get-go. [/*]I respectfully disagree. Go figure!

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I respectfully disagree. Go figure! [/*]

at least we've made some headway with the "respectfully" addition :)

[Cloudbuster]

JJ it's easy to get people to coorerate depending on what you tell them to do or they are told to do or give them a bogus reason to believe in and get them to believe it . Then there are other ways $ that work ect.

JMOO

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

at least we've made some headway with the "respectfully" addition :) [/*]Just remember that "respect" is something you have to have, in order to get! :candy:

[Serendipitous1]

Snarky1 to UtR...over?

[Serendipitous1]

Snarky1 to.......oh, forget it! Night all.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Snarky1 to UtR...over? [/*]

I respectfully request that I be allowed to address you as Snarky1 from now on - please

:D

I like the sound of it

Seriously, I hope UTR is ok and I miss her posts

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ it's easy to get people to coorerate depending on what you tell them to do or they are told to do or give them a bogus reason to believe in and get them to believe it . Then there are other ways $ that work ect.

JMOO [/*]

It's not that easy, and it would almost have to be from the top down. They is just no way that the BPD (much less PEF) could convince the AG's office to stonewall.

[Cloudbuster]

You don't think someone from the top can do this?

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Snarky1 to UtR...over? [/*]


J. J. is usually the one that can get UTR's attention. :santa:

Just ask J. J. to bring UTR on board. :candy:

Certain posters bring other posters on board. Like if I mention the initials P.F. I know that you and J. J. will be here immediately. And no I am not going to lay down on the road for you to run over me, S1.


P.F.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
You don't think someone from the top can do this? [/*]

No, I think only someone from the top could do it.

In other words, Det. Z could not call up the AG and say, **Don't pursue this.**

He, or someone local, could say, **I found out _____, should we suppress it?**

There would basically have to be an agreement between the BPD, PSP, Centre County DA's Office, and the AG's Office to keep the "big secret" secret, and no one could leak it to the Press. The "big secret" would have to be so big that even with changes in personnel at DA's Office and the BPD, the new people won't release it.

That is NOT easy. Anything that I could think of doesn't qualify as a "big secret."

[Cinderella]

I really do believe that there is a big secret. I have never seen a case such as this. When was the last time that they monitored the accounts of Ray? It is a big secret for a reason. Lara would know, she is not talking. I don't know about TG. I can't see Ray doing this and if RG is alive not telling TG. I believe that Ray would know that TG and his family had been hurt enough by his father's circumstances.

From the beginning:

Stories got changed

It was stated the first couple of days that non of his cases were involved.

LE cleared BJL's right away.

Det. Z didn't care to speak with me, just wanted to know if I knew where Ray's body was.

The picture from Texas was doctored. Who ever doctored it didn't do a great job. Look at it close. Look at his hair. If it wasn't Ray, why did they need to doctor the photo.

Also wearing watch on left hand, eating with left hand. I think that this person was right handed and was just using left hand in front of people. The guy never stated oh, that was me, I am from such and such.

Reward was low.

No one spoke out for Ray.

Not giving this case to AG or grand jury.

Lara not screaming and hollering.

There are more clues that make the case that he is alive then clues that show that he is not alive.

Only a couple probably know and unless someone gets lucky and runs into RG, no one will ever know the truth, but only the ones that he wants them to know. I feel a person could sit at the computer all day for the rest of their lives and still not know.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, I think only someone from the top could do it.

In other words, Det. Z could not call up the AG and say, **Don't pursue this.**

He, or someone local, could say, **I found out _____, should we suppress it?**

There would basically have to be an agreement between the BPD, PSP, Centre County DA's Office, and the AG's Office to keep the "big secret" secret, and no one could leak it to the Press. The "big secret" would have to be so big that even with changes in personnel at DA's Office and the BPD, the new people won't release it.

That is NOT easy. Anything that I could think of doesn't qualify as a "big secret." [/*]

JJ what if:
The King has spoken
The next department AG follows:
ALL the rest follow?

It would start at the top and trinkle its way down. I believe there is a big secret. Oh yes they know it too.

jmoo

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


JJ what if:
The King has spoken
The next department AG follows:
ALL the rest follow?

It would start at the top and trinkle its way down. I believe there is a big secret. Oh yes they know it too.

jmoo [/*]

The "King" wouldn't know initially. The field people would have had to discover it, first, in most situations.

[Cloudbuster]

"attempt to give some sense of purpose" to the "underperforming, not-functioning-well" drug intelligence center that "everybody in law enforcement knows ought to be closed."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-06-13-congress-earmarks_N.htm

The Associated Press
02/08/2005
http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13911705&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=8


Maybe all those Busts was despartly needed to keep one center open? Maybe that's a little of what Lee meant in some of what he said.


((((("This case turned out to be a political grand slam -- a lot of people got new jobs because of my case," Lee said. "It wasn't about right or wrong here, it was about a conviction."))))))
^^^^"I think I made my point clear that Dave Gorman is an idiot," Lee said. "Mike Madeira is not an idiot. He is an intelligent person; he knows how to kick the dirt where it needs to be kicked to keep things covered."^^^^^^???????
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archiv...-06dnews-02.asp



Now look on the AG page at Operation Sunburst and see where it centered in Lewisburg ect.
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=715
Corbett said prosecutors?? and agents??? continued to present evidence and testimony before a Statewide Investigating Grand Jury following the 2004 arrests, resulting in the recommendation of the criminal charges filed today.


Maybe it was a political GRAND SLAM. The dates seem so ........

speculation only

[Cinderella]

Can anyone refresh my mind about the man that was in trouble and taken off the gaming board?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Can anyone refresh my mind about the man that was in trouble and taken off the gaming board? [/*]

Alleged ties to organized crime.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks

Interesting news today..............as a follow-up on the gaming board and DeNaples.

http://www.centredaily.com/living/story/305583.html [/*]Thanks logicworks. A transcript of Sica's [in MO, amazing] GJ testimony:
http://www.thedailyreview.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2276&dept_id=465045&newsid=19167972&PAG=461&rfi=9

Also...the "leverage of power", including the hiring of 4 former federal prosecutors, 2 of whom continue to assist:
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_5denaples.6215643jan06,0,1414218.story

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Thanks logicworks. A transcript of Sica's [in MO, amazing] GJ testimony:
http://www.thedailyreview.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2276&dept_id=465045&newsid=19167972&PAG=461&rfi=9

Also...the "leverage of power", including the hiring of 4 former federal prosecutors, 2 of whom continue to assist:
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_5denaples.6215643jan06,0,1414218.story [/*]

That isn't to uncommon. About 8-10 years ago, I ask an attorney who does my civil if I should call regarding any criminal charges (I wasn't facing any or anticipating any). He say that the firm doesn't do criminal cases, but they would a recommend a former ADA who was legendary in getting death penalty in murder cases when he was an ADA. He is making big bucks as a criminal defense attorney now.

[Serendipitous1]

As they say, the grass is greener on the other side of the fence...particularly over the septic tank. Maybe there is a new pattern emerging - locals having to manage multi-jurisdictional investigations, because the state will not. JMOO

[Cinderella]

This is really sad. Who can anyone trust anymore. With the casino's the crime rate is really going to go up. Murders will be something that you hear about everyday. The waters are going to full of dead people. Not that they committed suicide, but they got dumped. God Help US All.

[ladyheartfixer]

Originally posted by Cinderella
This is really sad. Who can anyone trust anymore. With the casino's the crime rate is really going to go up. Murders will be something that you hear about everyday. The waters are going to full of dead people. Not that they committed suicide, but they got dumped. God Help US All. [/*]

"with the casino's the crime rate will go up".... why? Up here in the mountains of western PA we go and give our money to the Indians in Salamanca at the casino all the time...no more crime than usual...

"The waters are going to be full of dead people"...uh..just guessing...but that would already be the Passaic River in NJ. (right JJ?)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
As they say, the grass is greener on the other side of the fence...particularly over the septic tank. Maybe there is a new pattern emerging - locals having to manage multi-jurisdictional investigations, because the state will not. JMOO [/*]

A lot of people that are in government go into consulting after they leave (including me). This is just another form.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer


"with the casino's the crime rate will go up".... why? Up here in the mountains of western PA we go and give our money to the Indians in Salamanca at the casino all the time...no more crime than usual...

"The waters are going to be full of dead people"...uh..just guessing...but that would already be the Passaic River in NJ. (right JJ?) [/*]



Is that the name of the town that has the casino? It is owned by the Indians? Never heard of it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella




Is that the name of the town that has the casino? It is owned by the Indians? Never heard of it. [/*]

I rarely travel.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer


"with the casino's the crime rate will go up".... why? Up here in the mountains of western PA we go and give our money to the Indians in Salamanca at the casino all the time...no more crime than usual...

"The waters are going to be full of dead people"...uh..just guessing...but that would already be the Passaic River in NJ. (right JJ?) [/*]

We went to a campground in the mountain above Salamanca when I was 15. One of the best camping trips I ever went on. Of course I never went camping after my 15th year but that was one of the best that year. We were actually in the flood near there that year, after we left there and went to another campground further north,. We were on our way to Niagara Falls. The newspaper at that town sent a photo that had been in the paper of my Dad helping other campers move their campers and tents out of the water.

Didn't know they had casino's there. You live in a beautiful area!

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
<Snip>
Didn't know they had casino's there. You live in a beautiful area! [/*]Very nice, I am sure. And the priests there probably do not need handguns...or have wads of walking-around money or a billionaire's private number on their speed-dials. And they probably would not lie to a grand jury or threaten an arresting state trooper either.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20080107_Editorial___Casino_Probe.html
http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19173055&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=422126&rfi=6
http://www.thedailyreview.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2276&dept_id=465049&newsid=19167971&PAG=461&rfi=9

MOO - God surely works in mysterious ways! Guess there are just not enough crackerjack DAs or AGs to go around though.

[ladyheartfixer]

Salamanca, NY is where the Seneca Indians have the casino.

Allegheny State Park is the name of the park.

The priests may not carry handguns...but I do...licensed to carry a concealed weapon and know how and when to use it...

As for billionaires...does the Rigas family count? Oh, I forgot..most of them are in prison now...

As for threatening a trooper...they had one killed and another wounded by an escaped prisoner...just this past year in fact...Bucky whatever his name was...

that's about it from this area

[Cinderella]

LadyHeartFixer, with a username like yours I am surprised that you pack a pistol. You go girl.

I probably would myself, but I was out in the woods trying to practice and standing not far away from on old dryer, I couldn't even hit it. If I was that close, I don't know if there is any hope for me. I am probably better off with a baseball bat. Maybe hairspray as you can't conceal a baseball bat. :santa:

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella
LadyHeartFixer, with a username like yours I am surprised that you pack a pistol. You go girl.

I probably would myself, but I was out in the woods trying to practice and standing not far away from on old dryer, I couldn't even hit it. If I was that close, I don't know if there is any hope for me. I am probably better off with a baseball bat. Maybe hairspray as you can't conceal a baseball bat. :santa: [/*]

speaking of dryers - my mom got a new one, and my dad was cleaning his guns and 1 was loaded [he was unaware] - and he accidentally shot my mom's new dryer. she was so po'd that she gave it to me and made him buy another. i have a lovely gouge in the front of the dryer, but it works great....

nothing like an 80 yr old owning weapons.....:biggrin:

[Cinderella]

And Gee to think that he wasn't even aiming. :santa:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal


speaking of dryers - my mom got a new one, and my dad was cleaning his guns and 1 was loaded [he was unaware] - and he accidentally shot my mom's new dryer. she was so po'd that she gave it to me and made him buy another. i have a lovely gouge in the front of the dryer, but it works great....

nothing like an 80 yr old owning weapons.....:biggrin: [/*]

Thank heavens it was not your Mom that got it!

I knew a family that the father was cleaning his gun and the same thing happened, the bullet went through the wall and killed his liittle girl who was sleeping in bed.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

A lot of people that are in government go into consulting after they leave (including me). This is just another form. [/*]Well surprise, surprise...former US Attorney Thomas Marino has a new job - working for DeNaples. Marino was a reference in DeNaples' successful bid to get a slot-machine license. They have known each other since the 1990s, when Marino was the Lycoming County DA.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1199936404153450.xml&coll=1

Meanwhile, Sal Cognetti Jr. (another former federal prosecutor on DeNaples' payroll), representing Fr. Sica (the gun-owning, DeNaples spiritual adviser, accused of perjury), filed a complaint that troopers and a Dauphin County prosecutor "interrogated, cajoled, intimidated and attempted to induce" information from Sica; offered to keep the perjury charge confidential "if he made statements and/or incriminated others"; and threatened Sica with additional charges if he "continued to assert his constitutional rights."
http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/pennsylvania/20080111_ap_priestsattorneysaysauthoritieswantedin formationonothers.html

MOO - still (as yet) O/T as far as RG's plight is concerned. But it is curious to see how influential "friends" can warp common-sense ethical boundaries.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1

MOO - still (as yet) O/T as far as RG's plight is concerned. But it is curious to see how influential "friends" can warp common-sense ethical boundaries. [/*]

I don't see this as too unusual. This type of thing common.

BTW: I be away from my computer for a few days.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
<Snip>
I don't see this as too unusual. This type of thing common. [/*]We definitely have different views on professional ethics then. But I am just a country hick (not to be confused with a by-the-low-hill-dweller). MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
We definitely have different views on professional ethics then. But I am just a country hick (not to be confused with a by-the-low-hill-dweller). MOO [/*]

Quite. In have done consulting work for people that I don't personally agree with. Lawyers generally do represent clients that they might not agree with.

I would add that, in some cases, it would be an ethical violation not to represent someone. I think that there was a case in MA where an attorney refused someone and was successfully suid because of the grounds. I'll try to find the reference.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Quite. In have done consulting work for people that I don't personally agree with. Lawyers generally do represent clients that they might not agree with.

I would add that, in some cases, it would be an ethical violation not to represent someone. I think that there was a case in MA where an attorney refused someone and was successfully suid because of the grounds. I'll try to find the reference. [/*]You need not bother. I am often called upon to be an advocate. But I have successfully "ducked" potential clients who would only use the system to their own advantage. To me, professional ethics go way beyond the government's rather poor power to legislate same. JMOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
You need not bother. I am often called upon to be an advocate. But I have successfully "ducked" potential clients who would only use the system to their own advantage. To me, professional ethics go way beyond the government's rather poor power to legislate same. JMOO [/*]

This isn't just the government, but the legal profession itself.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

This isn't just the government, but the legal profession itself. [/*]Reminds me that some lawyers are lower than whale s__t. And that is at the bottom of the ocean.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Reminds me that some lawyers are lower than whale s__t. And that is at the bottom of the ocean. [/*]

Actually, one part of the system is the right to representation.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Actually, one part of the system is the right to representation. [/*]Yes...poor Louis! Well done Louis! MOO

[puzzled]

Everyone knows my thoughts on a possible Leathers connection. However in the last 6 months my thoughts have sort of changed. Ever since this Denaples stuff has been posted I just keep thinking what if Ray found out something connected to this mob/casino stuff and became a sitting duck so to speak. I mean lets face it they could easily have set Ray up and made him go bye bye. I am a fan of the Sopranos and we all know what happens to guys that know too much! They disapear. Could the posters just set their other thoughts aside for a moment and explore the possiblity that this could be what happened to Ray?:D

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by puzzled
Everyone knows my thoughts on a possible Leathers connection. However in the last 6 months my thoughts have sort of changed. Ever since this Denaples stuff has been posted I just keep thinking what if Ray found out something connected to this mob/casino stuff and became a sitting duck so to speak. I mean lets face it they could easily have set Ray up and made him go bye bye. I am a fan of the Sopranos and we all know what happens to guys that know too much! They disapear. Could the posters just set their other thoughts aside for a moment and explore the possiblity that this could be what happened to Ray?:D [/*]"Here's [possibly] your sign". Why did it fall on the Dauphin County DA to investigate the PSP information on DeNaples...as opposed to the state AG? Follow up question: Why has the RG investigation taken a similar path?

[J. J. in Phila]

S1, you will need to link gaiming to Centre County first, and I'm not seeing a link.

The second problem I have is, if RFG was looking at this, there would almost definitely be a record. While I can see him keeping the records on the laptop, I cannot see:

1. RFG not making a backup copy.

2. Anybody killing him not worrying about RFG having a back up copy stashed someplace (like his desk, someplace in the house, or a safe deposit box).

[Cinderella]

J. J.,

Don't you remember the things that went on in the Courthouse. Who says that records were not removed. I thought that Michael Madeira's job looked more promising working for the Attorney General. You have to do, what you have to do.

And I don't buy if for a minute that you are that naive.

[Serendipitous1]

Directed to the politician's and others who hide behind words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J.,

Don't you remember the things that went on in the Courthouse. Who says that records were not removed. I thought that Michael Madeira's job looked more promising working for the Attorney General. You have to do, what you have to do.

And I don't buy if for a minute that you are that naive. [/*]

Eight months later?

How would MM, or anyone else, know where the file was?

Why didn't LE find it, if in the office? Why didn't PEF find it at home? Why didn't LG find it when the hypothetical safe deposit box was opened?

[J. J. in Phila]

The laptop presents a real problem.

Let's assume that this was murder and the killer destroyed it in order to destroy the data. The killer would have to know that the data was uniquely on the laptop and RFG couldn't have copied it or printed it out. This would also preclude RFG being followed, because why would he be driving around with the laptop on a pleasure trip.

[Cinderella]

J. J.,

You mean to tell me that no one has access to the courthouse? How do you know that another copy didn't exist, and somene got rid of it. How about when they were in mouring on the one day.
Who was in the office? Do you think that no one can go to the courthouse when they want. How did the book get there?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J.,

You mean to tell me that no one has access to the courthouse? How do you know that another copy didn't exist, and somene got rid of it. How about when they were in mouring on the one day.
Who was in the office? Do you think that no one can go to the courthouse when they want. How did the book get there? [/*]

First, LE was in the office on Saturday 4/16/05 and checked the computer, from the killer's standpoint, the jig might have been up at that point.

Second, unless the killer walks out with the computer, he's going to have to sit there and check every file on the drive. He will have to check all CD's and disks in the office. He's going have to check all paper files for printouts. He going to have to ransack the office to find any hidden disks or printouts.

Even then, he can't be sure if RFG copied it and had it at home on disk, CD, on paper, if it's in a safe deposit box, in a sealed envelope with his lawyer, or with SS, MS, JKA or anyone else he might trust, or if he mailed a copy of it off to an out of town friend or relative for safe keeping.

In short, if there was a killer, and he wanted to destroy the data he would have to make sure that there was no copy of it anyplace. The only way he could would be if has with RFG from the time RFG got the data.

[J. J. in Phila]

I want to be clear on these points:

1. The likelihood for removing the drive is to destroy the data on it. There is no real reason to separate the drive and laptop except for that purpose.

2. The "tosser" would have to know that this was the only place where the data existed. For that to happen, either:

i. The "tosser" put the data on himself.

ii. The "tosser" was in close proximity to the laptop from when the data was put on until the drive was removed.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I want to be clear on these points:

1. The likelihood for removing the drive is to destroy the data on it. There is no real reason to separate the drive and laptop except for that purpose.

2. The "tosser" would have to know that this was the only place where the data existed. For that to happen, either:

i. The "tosser" put the data on himself.

ii. The "tosser" was in close proximity to the laptop from when the data was put on until the drive was removed. [/*]

Patty Fornicola was in "close proximity" to her own upstairs closet...

[gstickley]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


First, LE was in the office on Saturday 4/16/05 and checked the computer, from the killer's standpoint, the jig might have been up at that point.

Second, unless the killer walks out with the computer, he's going to have to sit there and check every file on the drive. He will have to check all CD's and disks in the office. He's going have to check all paper files for printouts. He going to have to ransack the office to find any hidden disks or printouts.

Even then, he can't be sure if RFG copied it and had it at home on disk, CD, on paper, if it's in a safe deposit box, in a sealed envelope with his lawyer, or with SS, MS, JKA or anyone else he might trust, or if he mailed a copy of it off to an out of town friend or relative for safe keeping.

In short, if there was a killer, and he wanted to destroy the data he would have to make sure that there was no copy of it anyplace. The only way he could would be if has with RFG from the time RFG got the data. [/*]

If RG was acting peculiar for a couple weeks prior to his disappearance, as speculated by some but not all, perhaps the reason for his "disappearance" began then, not on 04/14.

Who would have been with RG from the time he got "the data"?
Who had access to RG's office computer?
Who had ability to check RG's office computer, files, disks, & time to do so?
Who had access to RG's home computer?
Who had ability to check RG's home computer, files, disks, & time to do so?
Who had access to RG's laptop?
Who had ability to check RG's laptop, files, disks, & time to do so?
Who had access to RG's office files?
Who had ability to check RG's office files & time to do so?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley


If RG was acting peculiar for a couple weeks prior to his disappearance, as speculated by some but not all, perhaps the reason for his "disappearance" began then, not on 04/14.

Who would have been with RG from the time he got "the data"?
Who had access to RG's office computer?
Who had ability to check RG's office computer, files, disks, & time to do so?
Who had access to RG's home computer?
Who had ability to check RG's home computer, files, disks, & time to do so?
Who had access to RG's laptop?
Who had ability to check RG's laptop, files, disks, & time to do so?
Who had access to RG's office files?
Who had ability to check RG's office files & time to do so? [/*]

Assuming that the data was given to him in advance, the answer is no one. The person would have had to have been with RFG every moment. We know enough about RFG's movements on 4/14/05 to know that no one was with RFG the entire time.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Patty Fornicola was in "close proximity" to her own upstairs closet... [/*]

Wrong again. Someone would have to maintain that proximity with RFG. PEF was at work on 4/14/05; he was someplace else and could have very easily gone home and copied the data.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Wrong again. Someone would have to maintain that proximity with RFG. PEF was at work on 4/14/05; he was someplace else and could have very easily gone home and copied the data. [/*]

Wrong again.....

We don't know that RG is the one who took the laptop to Lewisburg.

It's a 50/50 tossup - either he did or Patty did.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Wrong again.....

We don't know that RG is the one who took the laptop to Lewisburg.

It's a 50/50 tossup - either he did or Patty did. [/*]

Still wrong, P'gal. The question isn't who took the laptop out of the closet, but who took the drive out of the laptop. Those are two different things.

Since PEF, or anyone else, was not with RFG all of 4/14/05, she, or anyone else, couldn't tell if RFG copied the data on the laptop.

As for the 50% chance, also wrong, because either one of them could have told someone else where it was and given them a key.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Still wrong, P'gal. The question isn't who took the laptop out of the closet, but who took the drive out of the laptop. Those are two different things.

Since PEF, or anyone else, was not with RFG all of 4/14/05, she, or anyone else, couldn't tell if RFG copied the data on the laptop.

As for the 50% chance, also wrong, because either one of them could have told someone else where it was and given them a key. [/*]

Again....you don't know that RG did anything with the laptop.

It could have been Patty.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Again....you don't know that RG did anything with the laptop.

It could have been Patty. [/*]

And again, the question is not about who took the laptop out of the closet. It is about who removed the drive from the laptop. Those are two different questions. :rolleyes:

Nobody, not PEF, JKA, SS, MS, BJL, FDR, JFK, LBJ, was in proximity to the laptop in the days before RFG disappeared. If someone wanted data on the laptop that was on the drive on or before 4/14 destroyed, they would have no way of knowing if RFG made a copy of that data.

[Cinderella]

I wonder if they fingerprinted the door knob or the closet door?
Or even the case.

[Cinderella]

I will say that I am 99% sure that they didn't. How about you
J. J.? ;)

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


And again, the question is not about who took the laptop out of the closet. It is about who removed the drive from the laptop. Those are two different questions. :rolleyes:

Nobody, not PEF, JKA, SS, MS, BJL, FDR, JFK, LBJ, was in proximity to the laptop in the days before RFG disappeared. If someone wanted data on the laptop that was on the drive on or before 4/14 destroyed, they would have no way of knowing if RFG made a copy of that data. [/*]

How do YOU know that Patty was not in proximity to the laptop?


That's just crazy JJ.

[Cinderella]

Pgal, you forgot MM. Even if he wasn't working in the office he proabably would know if there was a copy.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I wonder if they fingerprinted the door knob or the closet door?
Or even the case. [/*]

Since PEF was the one who opened the case, I would expect her prints to be on both.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


How do YOU know that Patty was not in proximity to the laptop?


That's just crazy JJ. [/*]

Child's play, P'gal.

PEF went to the office on 4/14/05. The laptop was at home (if it wasn't, she wasn't in proximity to it). During that time, RFG was not in the office for part of the day. If there was some data on the laptop, RFG could have copied it, or printed it out, while he out of the office.


Even if RFG brought it the office, unless PEF was by his side the entire day, he could copied it to a CD and then to his own computer, and even e-mailed it to someone or printed it out.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Since PEF was the one who opened the case, I would expect her prints to be on both. [/*]

Yes, I agree but what about other prints. What if PF's were there but not Rays. Also there could have been someone elses prints, but I bet it was never fingerprinted.

Cind.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Child's play, P'gal.

PEF went to the office on 4/14/05. The laptop was at home (if it wasn't, she wasn't in proximity to it). During that time, RFG was not in the office for part of the day. If there was some data on the laptop, RFG could have copied it, or printed it out, while he out of the office.


Even if RFG brought it the office, unless PEF was by his side the entire day, he could copied it to a CD and then to his own computer, and even e-mailed it to someone or printed it out. [/*]

JJ - let me put it in simpler terms....

NOBODY knows where the laptop was....

Patty *could* have had it in her possession - period.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks
I have been reading back over the posts from early on, and the more I read today, the more clear it seemed to be for me that......

1) Someone did not want Centre County focused on.



What do mean by "Centre County." The location? The government or office?


2) Someone wanted both the laptop and the hard drive found.


Why didn't they leave it in the car? Why did they remove the drive? Why were they tossed from two different locations?


3) Someone wanted all of the evidence in the same location.


Except it wasn't.

It would have been easy to just toss the drive off of the bridge, but whomever tossed it, tossed it from different locations. The laptop was found in a spot where it would have difficult to toss from anyplace but the bridge. The drive could not have been tossed from the bridge.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by logicworks
I have been reading back over the posts from early on, and the more I read today, the more clear it seemed to be for me that......

1) Someone did not want Centre County focused on.
2) Someone wanted both the laptop and the hard drive found.
3) Someone wanted all of the evidence in the same location.

Those points alone, for me, eliminate all the 'strays' that keep getting pulled into one scenario or another.
JMO [/*]

What are the "strays" that you are talking about?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I will say that I am 99% sure that they didn't. How about you
J. J.? ;) [/*]

Of what?

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Of what? [/*]



That they didn't do any finger printing on the door or the case.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by logicworks


Just wanting to add to this, it was someone who somehow knew of future upcoming searches and wanted to add more evidence to keep the focus in Lewisburg. The first searchers of the area found nothing, because, IMO, it wasn't placed there until after the initial searches were conducted.

I came across this post today by Serenedipitous 1, and brought it over because he mentions the dates when the next searches were conducted, same time as the first lie detector test was being conducted. Who knew about CB's request?


Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion:
The laptop was found at the time when the private search, using cadaver dogs, was being conducted at CB's request (late July - early August '05). [/*]

Patty, and the family I think

From Baron's forum

http://www.carlabaron.net/forum/showthread.php?t=206

scroll to MSpiritgazer's post about Patty

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Patty, and the family I think

From Baron's forum

http://www.carlabaron.net/forum/showthread.php?t=206

scroll to MSpiritgazer's post about Patty [/*]

Except the post is from 5/13/05; the laptop was found in late July. It also doesn't mention that PEF talked to Baron at that point.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella




That they didn't do any finger printing on the door or the case. [/*]

Probably not, since they knew PEF went to get it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



It seems likely that date of 5/13/05 would be close to the time the laptop was most likely planted. Not knowing how soon the search would take place, seems like someone wanted to get it there prior to, but had to be someone 'in the know' prior to.
JMO [/*]

Oh, what gives you that date. I think the laptop could have been tossed any time between 4/15 and 6/30, but I have not seen any indication of a specific time.

If it was suppose to be found, as you claim, why wasn't much easier to find and tossed in on 4/15/05? Why wasn't found sooner?

Conversely, I'm not sure Baron would be physically searching anything.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


I think Zaccagni's statement is very clear.....the river WAS searched thoroughly up to the mid-May date.

'He does not think Gricar committed suicide, despite the similarities in this case to Gricar's brother's disappearance in Ohio in 1996. Officials there found Roy Gricar's body in a river and determined the cause of death to be suicide by drowning.

"With as much time as we've been in that (Susquehanna) river, we would have found him by now," Zaccagni said.' [/*]

LW, there is a big difference between not finding a body, six feet tall, that gives of a scent, and a 14 inch long laptop, that doesn't. The is even a greater difference between the body and the 4 inch, by 3 inch, by 1 inch drive. Note Z's use of the word "him." It is clear that Z is referring to a body, not the computer.

Also, so far as I know, the actual river searches ended by 4/30.

The only things I'm willing to say about the laptop is that been in the water for a while (read at least 30 days) and that the drive had been separated prior to it being tossed.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



I believe the early search with divers would have specifically focused on the areas under both the railroad and the concrete bridge considering the top theory was out in capital letters, SUICIDE POSSIBLE.

When the focus left the river and Centre County attracted someone's attention in the investigation, the need to misdirect and instill Lewisburg firmly as 'THE' location, again arose. The condition of the laptop when Dixon held it up gave every appearance it had been in the water for more than a week or two. If it wasn't there when the divers were there in the first two weeks, that would eliminate nearly all of April, moving 'planting' it into May.

The more I read yesterday, the more I am convinced someone wanted the laptop and the hard drive found, therefore someone close to the investigation had to know someone was going to be conducting a search or searches.

Next question........ when Baron requested permission to search, did she give specifics to LE on locations she wanted to search or was she vague as in simply saying 'bridge area' or 'river' without mentioning an exact location?

Conversely, Baron may not have been 'searching' physically herself, but I would guess she would be with them every step of the way as she 'envisioned where' for them to search.
JMO [/*]

I remember seeing LE on the RT 45 river bridge but were the dogs taken there to scent for RG? Also the old railroad bridge bothers me since the hard drive was so close to it. Seeing the railroad bridge end next to the SOS and the park, did the dogs scent that area or in back of the SOS and under the railroad bridge? The railroad bridge ends on Rt 405 at the Auto Detail Shop with easy access to it. Did LE scent on that side of the river at the railroad bridge? At time of disappearance and during the time the laptop and hard drive were found?

[Politigal]

Originally posted by logicworks



I believe the early search with divers would have specifically focused on the areas under both the railroad and the concrete bridge considering the top theory was out in capital letters, SUICIDE POSSIBLE.

When the focus left the river and Centre County attracted someone's attention in the investigation, the need to misdirect and instill Lewisburg firmly as 'THE' location, again arose. The condition of the laptop when Dixon held it up gave every appearance it had been in the water for more than a week or two. If it wasn't there when the divers were there in the first two weeks, that would eliminate nearly all of April, moving 'planting' it into May.

The more I read yesterday, the more I am convinced someone wanted the laptop and the hard drive found, therefore someone close to the investigation had to know someone was going to be conducting a search or searches.

Next question........ when Baron requested permission to search, did she give specifics to LE on locations she wanted to search or was she vague as in simply saying 'bridge area' or 'river' without mentioning an exact location?

Conversely, Baron may not have been 'searching' physically herself, but I would guess she would be with them every step of the way as she 'envisioned where' for them to search.
JMO [/*]

I agree .... someone wanted Lewisburg to be the direction of the investigation, and someone wanted the computer items found.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


I agree .... someone wanted Lewisburg to be the direction of the investigation, and someone wanted the computer items found. [/*]

Except that there was no guarantee that either the drive or the laptop would have been found, ever.

It is a lot more problematic with the drive. If the "tosser" just wanted to "plant" the laptop, just toss it from the bridge, with the drive still inside. The drive was tossed from a different location and upstream from the laptop. If someone wanted to "plant" it, and there is nothing on the drive, just toss it (preferably from the south side of the bridge, not the north).

Let's assume that if was planted between 4/23 and 6/30. The planter is doing to have no idea when it will be found, but it's likely that the larger laptop will be found first; no one will be specifically looking for the drive. Where will LE be looking for the drive?

The answer is around the laptop. It could have been knocked out, or both could tossed at the same time. Possibly the force of the water may have pushed it down a bit, but not a lot.

Instead, the drive is found about 140-150 yards upstream. The tosser obviously wasn't exceptionally concerned that the drive would be found quickly, or ever. The brilliant Killer that you are theorizing certainly made huge mistakes with the laptop, if his plan was to plant it.

There is another, much more likely, reason. Whomever tossed it didn't want LE to read the data on the drive, so he tossed it more than 100 yards upstream from the laptop.

And the tosser had to know that RFG hadn't copied or printed that data someplace.

[Politigal]

I'm not theorizing about a brilliant killer.


I'm theorizing about a stupid Killer - one who didn't even bother to see the directional flow of the river.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
I'm not theorizing about a brilliant killer.


I'm theorizing about a stupid Killer - one who didn't even bother to see the directional flow of the river. [/*]

Let's see, we have a your hypothetical killer that can commit the crime without leaving any evidence and hide a body, for going on three years, but he gets confused about the direction of a swollen river. :rolleyes:

[Cinderella]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by logicworks


SNIP
____________
I only suspect that because instead of the auto detailing shop, on the GIS map, two faces showed up there instead of buildings when I pulled it up to have a look. IMO, two people were there. Best guess is one waited while the other went across the bridge.)
SNIP
_______________


Logic could you give me the link to the GIS map? I don't know how to use this one like I know how to use Centre Counties.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Let's see, we have a your hypothetical killer that can commit the crime without leaving any evidence and hide a body, for going on three years, but he gets confused about the direction of a swollen river. :rolleyes: [/*]

There was plenty of time to get rid of evidence, and there are numerous ways/locations to dispose of bodies.

And perhaps the accomplice didn't think to advise the killer about the direction of the river....

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


There was plenty of time to get rid of evidence, and there are numerous ways/locations to dispose of bodies.


Wrong again. There was not a great deal of time and while there are numerous ways to dispose of a body, the body usually shows up.


And perhaps the accomplice didn't think to advise the killer about the direction of the river....

So now the accomplice is blind? He'd have to be not too miss the direction a large and swollen river was flowing.

Use your head, P'gal.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Wrong again. There was not a great deal of time and while there are numerous ways to dispose of a body, the body usually shows up.



So now the accomplice is blind? He'd have to be not too miss the direction a large and swollen river was flowing.

Use your head, P'gal. [/*]


Wrong again. There was plenty of time - from Thursday night til Saturday morning to dispose of evidence. IMO

And, an accomplice wouldn't necessarily have even been involved with the laptop and hard drive at all.

Use your head Jj

[Politigal]

Originally posted by logicworks



Curious here..........why do you think direction played a factor? [/*]

because the hard drive was found upstream from the laptop.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal



Wrong again. There was plenty of time - from Thursday night til Saturday morning to dispose of evidence. IMO


No time before, unless the person had a magic wand to put the car there. After. Okay, the police were called at 11:30 PM; after that, no one knows if the BPD are going to show up at the house.


And, an accomplice wouldn't necessarily have even been involved with the laptop and hard drive at all.

Use your head Jj

You are one raising the "accomplice." I'm not. I seriously doubt that anyone, unless they were extremely stupid, or blind, would have not realized that the drive was upstream. Anybody even vaguely familiar with the Susquehanna, would have realized that. Use you head P'gal. Virtually no one would make a mistake like that.

So, the question recurs, why separate the drive from the laptop? The only reasonable answer that I come up with is to destroy the contents of the hard drive, not so that it would be found eventually.

[Serendipitous1]

As to the hard drive, I would not have overlooked the possibility of children at play...of which there was ample evidence in the vicinity behind the SoS and park. JMOO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
As to the hard drive, I would not have overlooked the possibility of children at play...of which there was ample evidence in the vicinity behind the SoS and park. JMOO [/*]

wouldn't their prints be on it?

I've read where guns have been fished out of rivers/lakes etc and law enforcement were still able to get prints.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks
Are you saying maybe children found the hard drive somewhere further down the river and moved it upriver to the location where it was found? No, I was thinking more of a land-based hard drive being tossed into the water...which also gets me wondering about other items. "Kids do the darndest things" (ala Art Linkletter). MOO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
No, I was thinking more of a land-based hard drive being tossed into the water...which also gets me wondering about other items. "Kids do the darndest things" (ala Art Linkletter). MOO [/*]

You are really showing your age with that one....:D

I owned that book when I was 8yrs old.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
As to the hard drive, I would not have overlooked the possibility of children at play...of which there was ample evidence in the vicinity behind the SoS and park. JMOO [/*]

But why would someone separate the drive first? I don't by "kids" unscrewing it.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
But why would someone separate the drive first? I don't by "kids" unscrewing it. I saw, first-hand, what the local kids were up to...and, believe it or not, I was once like them. All I am saying is, I would have sought out the kids who regularly played there. MOO

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
No, I was thinking more of a land-based hard drive being tossed into the water...which also gets me wondering about other items. "Kids do the darndest things" (ala Art Linkletter). MOO [/*]

Who is Art Linkletter? :D Nevermind..i will google him !!:read:

i don't think Mr. Gricar would ever toss a hard drive..the laptop was just one of the MANY clues "planted" to lead everyone in circles...

jmo as always...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I saw, first-hand, what the local kids were up to...and, believe it or not, I was once like them. All I am saying is, I would have sought out the kids who regularly played there. MOO [/*]

It might be worth a shot.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by day2day
Who is Art Linkletter? :D Nevermind..i will google him !!:read:
i don't think Mr. Gricar would ever toss a hard drive..the laptop was just one of the MANY clues "planted" to lead everyone in circles... jmo as always... The laptop could easily have been missed by divers searching for a body In April '05. But how is it that the hard drive went undetected, even after the laptop (sans hard drive) was found...and despite the fact that the entire bank and channel behind the park was denuded soon after the laptop discovery? Answer: because it was not then there. MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
The laptop could easily have been missed by divers searching for a body In April '05. But how is it that the hard drive went undetected, even after the laptop (sans hard drive) was found...and despite the fact that the entire bank and channel behind the park was denuded soon after the laptop discovery? Answer: because it was not then there. MOO [/*]

But was there a solid search of the river bank or even around the bridge?

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
The laptop could easily have been missed by divers searching for a body In April '05. But how is it that the hard drive went undetected, even after the laptop (sans hard drive) was found...and despite the fact that the entire bank and channel behind the park was denuded soon after the laptop discovery? Answer: because it was not then there. MOO [/*]

I think you are right on the money. I will never be convinced that hard drive was in the water on 4/05...I DO believe it was planted there....long after ..to add to the confusion/to mislead...

JMO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by day2day


I think you are right on the money. I will never be convinced that hard drive was in the water on 4/05...I DO believe it was planted there....long after ..to add to the confusion/to mislead...

JMO [/*]

to keep the focus on Lewisburg

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


to keep the focus on Lewisburg [/*]

Why? The focus was there from 4/16/05. Too many witnesses, not to mention the Mini/

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks
How many ways, paths, ???, are there to get to the area where the hard drive was found? Is it only accessible from behind the SOS where you say the children play? The mother and son walked out there to skip stones. Is there only one way to get out there? The steepness of the bank, vegetation and flood debris, directly behind the SoS and park, limit convenient access points...especially during times of high water. In regard to the hard drive find, I would say the access on either side of the railroad bridge. The north side is where the kids play, and the south side (through the park) is where adults (like me) access the creek/river. MOO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


I suspect the railroad bridge over to the Auto Detail shop on route 405 was the path used by someone to avoid their own vehicle being seen anywhere near the SOS; most likely when cell phone was 'planted', same time the aerobics tape was dropped, IMO, and later for the laptop and hard drive placement.
(I only suspect that because instead of the auto detailing shop, on the GIS map, two faces showed up there instead of buildings when I pulled it up to have a look. IMO, two people were there. Best guess is one waited while the other went across the bridge.)

I wonder if anyone was ever questioned at the auto detailing shop. You didn't happen to notice the hours the auto detailing place was open on Friday, did you? Thanks for the 'details'......
JMO [/*]

No I didn't but I will check my photo's to see if I happened to catch it on camera. I was thinking the same thing about the railroad bridge.

[puzzled]

I would be happy to contribute financially towards a billboard for Ray! I also would be happy to help organize a peaceful protest in front of the courthouse for April 15th although I doubt that I would be able to attend........unfortunately.

[puzzled]

I still do not no what roflmao stands for. Can someone fill me in?

[ladyheartfixer]

rolling on floor laughing my *** off

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
The steepness of the bank, vegetation and flood debris, directly behind the SoS and park, limit convenient access points...especially during times of high water. In regard to the hard drive find, I would say the access on either side of the railroad bridge. The north side is where the kids play, and the south side (through the park) is where adults (like me) access the creek/river. MOO [/*]

THX S1 now i understand the southside. Okay drive tossed from the southside makes sense on the tape now. It had to be the drive that was tossed from the southside. The laptop was tossed along the drive to Lewisburg. Now I get its meaning from the tape. Both parts was tossed from 2 different locations.
MOO

[day2day]

Originally posted by Politigal


to keep the focus on Lewisburg [/*]

exactly....

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



How many ways, paths, ???, are there to get to the area where the hard drive was found? Is it only accessible from behind the SOS where you say the children play? The mother and son walked out there to skip stones. Is there only one way to get out there? [/*]

LW, I looked up my photo's and this is what I have found on them.

In one photo taken there is a sign at the corner of the lot with "Keystone Power Washers" Auto Detailing Center on it, and the phone number 523-8222 is on the building in another photo.

Just in front of the Keystone sign there is another smaller sign that has "Self Serve Dog Wash" 8am - 9pm gift Certificate. That sign has an arrow on it that could be pointing down Rt 405 or maybe inside the Auto Detail Shop, I don't know.

Also one of the photo's was taken as we were sitting at the light next to the Auto Detail Shop, facing west, and it shows the railroad bridge in the photo, so the rail tracks would have gone beside the business, very close, and I know it was across the road from it.

I was also looking at my photo's on other days. On this day one phhoto came out purples, yellows and blues, and I was sitting on Rt 45 facing east, at the light, at the intersection of Rt 405/45, just off the Susquehanna River Bridge, taking a photo of the Auto Detail Shop.

A different day of photo's down there I was in the park between the river and Water St, closer to the river. There is coloring on the left side of the photo, which I am facing towards Water St, and the area of discoloration has a picnic table with a long cement ?something, to the right of it? Have no idea what it is but is longer than wide.

Another day, most recently, I had discolorations of purples, greenish blue and yellow. I was in front of the Packwood Museum taking a photo of the park, with the benches close to Water St, what looks like a monument in the center with plants around it and the railroad bridge in the back.

And then one of my photo's near the warehouse didn't have the brilliant colors but it was a gray color, like the picture was fading, not a bright as the other ones. I was walking between the 2 warehouses and there is a big cement box, in the grassy area close to the road. It has a pipe sticking out of it and what looks like a man cover or grill over it. When I was walking I thought it odd and wondered if LE had checked it out, but when I got home, the photo with it in it is gray, so my camera was reacting to it too.

I just find it odd my camera only does that in the area of the park and on both sides of the river and at that warehouse area.

I will share the photo's but don't have your email. I also printed them out and have thought of sending them to the detective but he would just say my camera is acting up. But why only when taking photo's of RG's case?????

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


THX S1 now i understand the southside. Okay drive tossed from the southside makes sense on the tape now. It had to be the drive that was tossed from the southside. The laptop was tossed along the drive to Lewisburg. Now I get its meaning from the tape. Both parts was tossed from 2 different locations.
MOO [/*]

CB, I have photo's that show the area's of the river and bank. I believe they were in the batch that I tried to send to you and they came back as "email full" at your end. If you want them give me the heads up to send them again.

You can see in these photo's how the whole bank area is now accessible to the river. They have cleaned up the area under the river bridge and you can walk from one side to the other. In fact, the only place I saw debrie was at the entrance to the old railroad bridge, everything else, even the lower bank behind the SOS looks cleaned up.

[Cinderella]

Puzzled and Cloudbuster should both get together and learn how to do their contractions. 't It is apostrophe t. I hope that I didn't offend anyone. If I did it ai'nt bothering me.

[Cinderella]

Open Letter To PA Attorney General Tom Corbett

The Citizens of PA have asked you time after time to do something with the Ray Gricar case. You chose to turn your head and state that you didn't want the case.

The Citizens of PA greatly care for DA Ray Gricar who went missing after being posted on one of your publicity pictures. You have a web site and you show the work that your agency has done. You have pictures of drug people on your boards to show who all is involved.

Personally I have never know of the PA Attorney General's Office to get the Ringleaders, only the little street people. If your office can spend money going around and putting little people in jail, why can't PA spend some money on finding our DA who was involved in the biggest Drug Bust. Mr. Corbett, Do you remember his name? It is Ray Gricar.

Don't look for an easy re election this time. We the people who love and care for Ray Gricar are going to make you answer some major questions about why you deserted one of your DA's.

The Citizens are going to make you feel like you make the citizens of PA feel. We are going to just act like you mean nothing to us and elect a better caring person in your position.

You see, The People Put You in Office and We can Take you Out of Office.

The Citizens of PA want answers and we want them now. Not tomorrow. Actually we want this case settled before election time.


It is coming and happening soon, so don't forget it like you forgot about Ray Frank Gricar, our Beloved DA that went missing.

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G06/PA.phtml

Attorney General 4 year term, Election Cycle: 2004, 2008

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Republican Attorney General Tom Corbett
• First elected: 2004
• Seat up for election: Tuesday 4 November 2008

[puzzled]

Dear one term Tom....get off your butt and find Ray! I will personally alert all the media outlets to your inactivity very soon if you do not take action! Shwo you care and get this case rolling. How would you like it if one of your loved ones were missing?:cuss:

[Serendipitous1]

TC apparently will run for re-election as AG, then (according to some) try for the governorship (not a difficult task...running against the failed policies of 'Uncle Ed's' administration). But, TC gets my 'no' vote...'no' and 'absofrackinglutely' not (small token to the part-timer and long lost OOBrett).

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
TC apparently will run for re-election as AG, then (according to some) try for the governorship (not a difficult task...running against the failed policies of 'Uncle Ed's' administration). But, TC gets my 'no' vote...'no' and 'absofrackinglutely' not (small token to the part-timer and long lost OOBrett). [/*]

At least two previous ones have considered it, one them is now off parole. :)

The thing is, as it now stands, this is not a state issue.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


It happened in the Commonwealth, therefore it is a state issue.
Since when does a local DA have power greater than the AG's office?
JMO [/*]

The E-Station attacks in Center City Philadelphia are not a state issue, because most of the state doesn't use those station. The drive-by shooting at the end of my block a few weeks ago wasn't a state issue, because most of the state isn't at the end of my block.

What happened to a DA in Centre County isn't going to affect the daily lives of voters in Phila or Pittsburgh.

That is the political reality of the situation.

[Serendipitous1]

This is, in my opinion, the very essence of the matter. No DA...and no family of any DA...in Pennsylvania, can (or should) live with the uncertainty of what happened to Ray Gricar. It is THAT important. MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



The Commonwealth pays the majority of the wages of the District Attorney, therefore the Commonwealth should be in charge of the investigation of the disappearance of one of it's public servants, NOT the locals. I don't see that being 'rocket science'. IMO, it's common sense to know a case of this kind should not be handled locally.
JMO [/*]

LW, when I was living in Johnstown, a local state representative was murdered; his name was Bill Telek; it was probably a car jacking in Harrisburg.

Who handled the case? The Harrisburg police, where the crime happened. Not the Sergeant of Arms of the State House, not the PSP, not the police in Cambria County. How much of Rep. Telek's salary was paid by the state? 100%

I'm an ex-state employee; I get a pension from them, which represents more than 50% of my income. If I'm murdered in Phila, does the PSP get the case? No. The Phila police get the case.

If I'm murdered in Phila, would the people, in general, in Pittsburgh, Altoona, State College, Harrisburg, or Lancaster be concerned? No, because it wouldn't greatly affect there lives.

Would the people in my neighborhood be concerned? Probably, because the killer might still be around and might kill them. Even if they don't know me, they might be concerned that, if it happened to me, it might happen to them.

Will the people in Phila, Pittsburgh, Altoona, Harrisburg, or Lancaster be concerned about a possible murder in Bellefonte or Lewisburg? No. Should the people in Bellefonte or Lewisburg be concerned that there might be a murderer, who might decide to murder any one of them? Hopefully. So far, I have not seen it.

I sort of agree with S1, but since we don't know the motive, I would say that every public official in PA should be concerned.

[Serendipitous1]

"Motive" matters...and yet, it does not matter. I say again, No DA...and no family of any DA...in Pennsylvania, can (or should) live with the uncertainty of what happened to Ray Gricar. It is THAT important. MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

S1, you can complain about what the politicians do, but that will NOT change what they do.

The one thing that might, maybe, change the politicians minds' is public pressure. If the public is trouble by it, the politicians will be troubled by it.

The one thing that I think even has an outside chance of moving the public would be that they perceive that any one of them could be the next victim.

LG, PEF, TG, JKA, you, me, LW, Cind, SJ, standing on the steps of the Courthouse won't change that perception.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



First of all, if you are saying the crime should be investigated in the county where it occurred, I couldn't agree more. Why DOES BPD have the case? The evidence was NOT found in Centre County. It was found in the parking lot, Lewisburg police jurisdiction. The laptop and hard drive were found in the river, PSP jurisdiction, IIRC.


Except, we have no evidence that a crime was committed in Lewisburg, and the sole crime that the PSP could investigate was, who tossed the laptop in the water, not what happened to RFG.


In the Telex case, 1988, arrests were made shortly thereafter IN the county where the crime occurred by the LE who was handling the case. It was not 20 years later, with Johnstown police saying 'every stone has been overturned' in Harrisburg.


In the Telek case, there was evidence that a crime had been committed, in Harrisburg. That didn't trigger the PSP entering because has salary was 100% paid by the state (He had his pay check with him, IIRC). That was your last suggestion.


Secondly, you apparently are NOT a District Attorney, nor have you disappeared on a normal work day, without emailing those who worked with you stating you would not be in to work. The circumstances around RG's disappearance could cause anyone to take notice. You compare apples to oranges......a retired state worker, obviously NOT an elected official, a public servant at the time of disappearance.


And? You've made the argument that because the state pays for part of his salary, they should investigate it.

As for the e-mail, the same thing on 4/14/05 for part of the day. That's not unusual.


This case is now about WHO is going to fully investigate not about 'what if JJ disappeared' or 'should I be afraid there is a murderer in Centre County?'



The question is, "What can be done to encourage greater investigation?" And then we talk about protests and LG speaking out. You need something that will move the public, that will in turn move the elected officials. Right now, those elected official are saying, basically, **We've done enough.** The public is not saying, **No, you have not.**

[day2day]

Originally posted by logicworks



It's your lie. Tell it anyway you want to. [/*]

:beer:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



It's your lie. Tell it anyway you want to. [/*]

No, it's the truth, at least as reported by people that have talked to their local state legislators, as has been reported here. Cind, IIRC, wrote her state senator, who used the "resources" line. S1, within the last three days, has stated that he's tried to get his state representative interested, to no avail.

And we saw "Al's" post, on the State College board, which produced one joke response from someone, and nothing else.

It is your self delusion that LG or PEF can magically change either the populace in general or the elected officials' minds.

I canm almost guarantee you that if MM had a few dozen phone calls and letters a day, every day, from his constituents, pleading with him to turn the case over to the AG's office or call a grand jury, it would have been done by now.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila



The question is, "What can be done to encourage greater investigation?" And then we talk about protests and LG speaking out. You need something that will move the public, that will in turn move the elected officials. Right now, those elected official are saying, basically, **We've done enough.** The public is not saying, **No, you have not.** [/*]


I totally disagree. The citizens of Centre County want to hear the Gricar family complain. The family has used the media before and Pete Bosak would probably be very willing to help. The people and I personally see the Gricar family being quiet. They feel that if the Gricar family is satisfied so are they.

I myself feel that the Gricar family is satisfied or if not then they are a strange bunch. I would agree that Ray is missing, but from what the Gricar family shows me, it makes me believe that he is alive. Any other family would be yelling at the top of their lungs.
They should be the ones doing stuff for the anniversary. Personally I believe Lara either knows where Ray is or something is wrong that she has kept so quiet.

I still believe that picture of Ray to be a recent picture. If Ray did want to go missing, he probably wouldn't want Lara involved. I say give Lara and TG a Lie Detector test and see what happens.

I would also like to see reliable proof that Roy Gricar is deceased.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Obviously it is YOUR delusion because I never mentioned either LG or PF doing anything of the sort.

Maybe instead you can tell me when Governor Rendell is going to announce he is creating a committee and a special task force investigation will begin as soon as the committee appoints those who are free of 'conflict of interest', with the committee 'leading'. Then I will believe we have gotten somewhere. Not a delusion, JJ, but instead a fervent prayer.



The Lord helps those who help themselves.

Rendell won't, one reason (other than the legal one) being that there is no outcry to do so.


'Muddling' is what people do when they have NO intention whatsoever of doing anything. They play in the dirt where they fell, at the same wall that everyone ran into. What they fail to see is that they must JUMP the wall, and be free of the 'muddling' before there can be any hope of success. The 'mud' is dirty, and is a rut where one is guaranteed of finding others who have NO intention of getting out of the rut, or assisting anyone else in getting out of the rut. Misery loves company theory. NO thanks!!


We've had people here talking to their elected officials, and you've seen how far that has gotten. :rolleyes:

If you want those elected officials to do something, you have to pressure them. How? By getting the people who employ them to pressure them.

[/quote]

You can guarantee NO such thing.
The pre-election moves will be closely scrutinized.
When the residents of Pennsylvania have to BEG officials to do their 'sworn duty', to serve at the highest moral and honorable standard they are capable of, that is also the time to beg them to leave, via election.
JMO [/*][/QUOTE]

Oh, please! The "residents of Pennsylvania" really don't have an interest in this, I'm sorry to say. You saw re result of the post on the Centre County, from people that were actually represented by RFG. You've heard the responses from the elected officials from posters who have contacted them. You possibly have read some of the responses to the articles.

I am not happy that they occur, but I can read them. :read:

[Cloudbuster]

I put that post up on the state college board not as any joke!! I put it up out of desperation. The first time around some where talking in private pms with things that concerned them and they exchanged some what they thought tips worth checking out. Trust me more than college kids used to read it but now I think not. Anything is worth a try to this maddening case.

:rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


First you say no one is talking to the officials. Then you say they are and it isn't getting them anywhere.



No, I said too few people are talking about it.


You say Rendell can't help and then you say everyone needs to talk to those who employ them. They are employees of the Commonwealth, and the Governor IS their leader.


Read the prior response.


You, ONE resident in Pennsylvania, can speak for all the residents of PA? I don't think so.


I've talked to more than a few, including one today, from the area, and I get the same result. I know that RFG is not a hot topic of conversation. We're also seen the other board about this case, Websleuths, close.


The result of the post on Centre County? Are you referring to State College. com? Strange audience to look for answers from, IMO. Casting pearls to college kids who are in school, not working, don't pay taxes in PA, majority too young to vote, guarantees you will get nothing more than a joke response. That was evident the first time around. Anyone who needs to think the re-run will be any better, well.....have at it.
I am looking for answers, not jokes.
JMO [/*]

Those are not college students as a rule; they are are residents, generally older, from reading the posts.

CB, I have NEVER suggested that your post as "Al" was a joke. It was legitimate. I am disturbed that the one answer to it was a joke about RFG being with "Hoffa and Elvis."

If you can't the people that elected RFG for five terms to take a greater interest in this case, why do you think their elected officials will?:flamemad:

That emoticon isn't aimed at you, LW; it is aimed at the apathy in Centre County.

[Cloudbuster]

I understand JJ. Its so emotionally sickening that the public isn't showing how important this case is. The officals that could change things are a disgrace!!! I still feel Lara and Patty could help make a fuss BUT for some reason refuse and remain silent, why?? TG has tried and I know from my own experience it is not a easy position to be in and can really mess your life up.

What it might take is someone running politically who wants to look good and uses this case to advance theirself by some means. Heck they would have been better off leaving Keisling involved, at least he gets in people's scibbies roflmao. :lol:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Are you referring to the apathy of the local elected official who shelters his apathetic higher-up friend from having to move?


No, I am referring to the general apathy of the public.

We've thrown around the topic of a "protest," and how LG should do it.

She wouldn't need to if a few hundred Centre County residents did. They would be more effective, because they generally vote.

If the public were demanding answers, the elected official would be making a greater effort to placate them.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Once again you believe an elected official needs to be begged and cajoled into doing his/her duty.
You would remove responsibility from State elected officials and instead place it on every person's doorstep in Centre County and believe you serve truth and justice? Whose is the shame?


No, once again, I believe that elected officials tend to represent their constituencies. Now, we did have some DA's pushing for it, but where was the public support for it?


The Governor of Pennsylvania can cause the necessary move. It is he who needs to be petitioned, emailed, written, called. You can yodel on Bellefonte's doorstep all you want, JJ. The 'heels' are dug in there.
JMO [/*]

No heels, just no pressure. You can bet Rendell (a former DA himself) doesn't go to bed at night worrying about what happened to RFG. You can bet he would if there was enough outrage.

It's sad, I'm angry about, but I'm not sure how to do anything about it.

[Serendipitous1]

There is something (there has to be something) so convoluted, about this case...which is why I have been wondering about the 'big secret' rather than the petty lies and half-truths. Ray Gricar was not an ordinary man to us Pennsylvanians, even those of us who never heard of him before he mysteriously disappeared. He deserves much better than this 'motley crew' (including me). JMOO

[J. J. in Phila]

First, I agree with you "motley crew" commening, not exempting myself.

The only "big secret" that I could even potentially see is if RFG was blackmailing someone. In his position, he possibly could get information that would be embarrassing if released.

The problems with that theory are:

1. RFG was not an idiot. He would have copies of any documentation; w/o documentation, he couldn't do it. Anyone murdering him would have no ideas where those copies were. Safe deposit box? Lawyer? Friend? In his desk in his office? All of these? If RFG dies, these could come out.

2. Where is the money RFG gets from doing this?

3. If LE stumbles across it, why aren't they focusing on the person being blackmailed? If it's a criminal act the person is being blackmailed over, why doesn't LE make an attempt to prosecute?

Everything like that that I come up with, has the same problem.

Even assuming RFG died in flagrante delicto, but of natural causes, why not just cover up the circumstances, but not the death.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


So now, the latest portrayal of a disappeared RG, a possible blackmailer.
RG, a dedicated, loyal, honorable public servant, never gave any indication he was anything less than that during his decades of service.
What, in his character, would lead you to make such a conclusion?
JMO [/*]

JJ, didn't say it was his conclusion. He just gave a "potential" suggestion to the "Big Secret" and things he found wrong with it.
Just another questionable theory and why it wouldn't work or RG wouldn't do it.

[Cinderella]

Logic, I agree with you. I feel if he willingly disappeared it was because he was threatened or something that was beyond his control.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


So now, the latest portrayal of a disappeared RG, a possible blackmailer.
RG, a dedicated, loyal, honorable public servant, never gave any indication he was anything less than that during his decades of service.
What, in his character, would lead you to make such a conclusion?
JMO [/*]

SJ has it right, and in all fairness, we've seen some similar things suggested, i.e. "Ray was gay," the numerous suggestions here that he could have been seeing someone else. You didn't seem to have a problem with posters suggesting that RFG was a cheater?

SJ has it right, you have it wrong. The possibility that RFG was blackmailing someone, i.e. committing a criminal act, is about the only "big secret" that I could see LE wanting to cover up. And, ultimately, it wouldn't make any sense for someone being blackmailed by RFG to murder RFG without making sure that the evidence used in the blackmail would never be found. RFG, described as both "brilliant" and "street smart" would keep that evidence secured and have more than one copy.

Since you like to use the terms, "character" and "evidence," we can look at what his friend and coworkers were saying about his behavior in early 2005. That paints a picture of someone who, "won't be here," in the Fall, tired, "distraught," not really thinking about the Fall, but someone who, if he leaves can "call." Someone who one of his "closer friends" could have walked away.

I don't put a lot of stock in just claims of character or observations, at least NOT enough to claim "walkaway." If I did base it on the reports of his "character," my answer would be different.

[Laws]

The only flaw that Mr. Gricar's record demonstrated was the difficulty in finding an intimate partner with the same work ethic as his own which after varying periods of time caused the relationships to break down.

For my own state of mind had to set up blocks so that the character assassination & misdirection posts would not be readable to myself. They are offensive & upsetting in addition to spurring apathy & discouraging action of the willing who wish to support actions in the name of innocent victims whose interests have not been properly represented by those charged with those responsibilities.

The treatment that Mr. Gricar has received breaks my heart as there aren't enough of his type on our planet, imo.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Laws
The only flaw that Mr. Gricar's record demonstrated was the difficulty in finding an intimate partner with the same work ethic as his own which after varying periods of time caused the relationships to break down.

For my own state of mind had to set up blocks so that the character assassination & misdirection posts would not be readable to myself. They are offensive & upsetting in addition to spurring apathy & discouraging action of the willing who wish to support actions in the name of innocent victims whose interests have not been properly represented by those charged with those responsibilities.

The treatment that Mr. Gricar has received breaks my heart as there aren't enough of his type on our planet, imo. Amazing knowledge for a gal living in MA, if what you state were actually true...which it (apparently) is not. But I think you are not beckoning us from 'Revelation Range' here...else we would have heard your revealing 'facts' back in May '05. Circumstantial suspicion, without facts (the 'hinky feeling'), does not equal guilt (maybe in 'MA', but not in PA). JMOO

[Serendipitous1]

Is there a write-in candidate for AG (i.e. Mickey Mouse®, Donald Duck®, etc.)? I really, really, really would like to see (however symbolic) a public rejection of TC in the primary.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


'Claims' of character? His track record isn't a claim. It's a fact.

How many times are you going to repeat he said he ''wouldn't be there' during his vacation, as if he meant something else? Ask instead why the good judge couldn't find any time slot but RG's vacation time for the murder case.


If we go with the description from coworkes, and friends, walkaway is possible. And, you don't understand that judges do not arrange their schedules, or those of the county in question, around the DA's vacation.


One of his 'seemingly' close friends who stated he could have walked away has yet to indicate how close their relationship was at the time of disappearance, considering said friend wasn't even working for months prior to disappearance. When did they last communicate immediately prior to disappearance and was it work related, or personal related?

'Distraught' means what?


His friends and coworkes are saying it. As for "distraught," ask JKA; I'm quoting her.


WHO do you think a DA would blackmail anyway? Is that your latest idea about how he ended up needing no money to leave with, because he had so much money he had tucked away from blackmailing someone?


No, but we are talking about S1's "big secret." I'm looking at what could be a motive for murder. If RFG was murdered, obviously, a blackmail victim would have a motive. The problem is, there would be a lot of evidence that RFG was a blackmailer; that evidence isn't there.

Now, I do think that any DA would find information that people didn't want to come forward, even information that wasn't criminal.

I can't come up with anything that constitutes S1's "big secret."

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Is there a write-in candidate for AG (i.e. Mickey Mouse®, Donald Duck®, etc.)? I really, really, really would like to see (however symbolic) a public rejection of TC in the primary. [/*]


Better yet, we should put Ray Gricar as a write in.

Cind.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella



Better yet, we should put Ray Gricar as a write in.

Cind. [/*]

That is possibly the best suggestion that I have heard.