Do You Feel That PF Was Fully Investigated?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Born in 1963, I would think a college degree in either 1985 or 1986 is logical. With respect to the negative implications of coworkers marrying and continuing in their employ, I say............pooh!



I though she was 41 in 2005, though granted, she could have turned 42. The Alumni Association says 1986, however.

[UndertheRadar]

Talk about common sense . . .

And we know that RG was absolutely, definitely, positively by the Susquehanna and nowhere near the Allegheny
because . . . ?

Oh, yeah, that's right. JJ has proof he was in Lewisburg, and even if he was there on Saturday, he couldn't have gone anywhere else. Even if we believe he was in Lewisburg and killed there Friday, he couldn't have been dumped in a river elsewhere later that day . . .

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I guess that I should have said that a sneaker was found with the bones instead of a shoe. I truly hope the sneaker doesn't belong to Ray. I would still like him to be found alive. [/*]

I'm really curious who would have burned the bones and the shoe.

[Cloudbuster]

In that suburbean area it would most likely be someone involved in the drug world. It's not unusual in that neck of the woods. It's sick is what it is!!!! I hope they check also to see if it is the missing Cushey boy.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, the key words are "her hair or traces of her blood in the bathroom would not be inconsistent with her living there."

I have no doubt that they would find traces of blood, hair, and, yes, even fingerprints of RFG in the house in which he lived in for over a year.

I would also expect that Peterson was physically larger than his wife and could hold her head under the water while she is bathing (which is what is being suggested with Peterson's ex-wife).

The question is, could anyone drive a car for an hour and:

1. Not leave any evidence of being there.

2. Not disturbing the evidence of the prior person being there.

UTR, the watershed between the Susquehanna and the Allegheny is about 55 miles west of Bellefonte and the car was found about 50 miles east of Bellefonte, it kinda sorta makes it unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely.

[Just a note. The watershead is where the water drains in one direction. A stream or river large enough to carry the remains is further than the 55 miles cited.]

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
<Snip>
Dr. Michael Baden is an internationally renowned, Board-certified, forensic pathologist; he is presently or has been the Chief Medical Examiner of New York City; the chief forensic pathologist for the New York State Police; a co-Director of the New York State Police Medicolegal Investigation Unit . . . . [/*]...and he loves the limelight, though he is no "Quincy M.E."...JMO. I have no objection to grilling PF. But there comes a point (absent something tangible) where that is no longer useful. Having said that, someone is eternally damned by this...whose only salvation is to come forward. But in my experience, plowshares and backstraps are at different parts of the horse.

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, I guess you missed the neon lights at the beginning of my post where I said

**Big Disclaimer**: I am NOT arguing this happened in PF's house. I don't want to hear from JJ after this post how now we have UTR arguing blah blah blah blah.

Obviously, I wasn't putting up what Baden said about DP dismembering SP in the bathtub to claim that PF dismembered RG in the bathtub, ELSEWISE I would not have made that disclaimer in neon lights.

Obviously, I was putting Baden's observations up because you have claimed over and over again that LE has "checked PF out," that LE "did a walk through of the house," that LE "found nothing to indicate a struggle," and so on.

I would have thought my point was pretty clear.

1) Internationally renowned forensic pathologist Michael Baden said that something as EXTREME as a bathtub dismemberment could get by an LE cursory investigation.

2) Nothing more than a cursory investigation was done at PF's home.

3) Therefore, something far LESS extreme than a bathtub dismemberment could surely get by a cursory investigation by LE.

I hope repeating the disclaimer and spelling out the simple syllogism for you makes it clearer.

If you have problems with what Baden is claiming, perhaps you'd like to contact him. I'm sure Greta could help you get in touch.

****

As for your questions about the car, they have been answered before, also with supporting evidence from authorities.

****

As for where the Mini was found in relation to Bellefonte, that may well have been irrelevant if RG was murdered. His body could have been unceremoniously dumped anywhere, theoretically speaking. Second disclaimer: I am not arguing that the remains Cind posted about are those of RG. I am merely pointing out that if you are going to jump on S1's snarky little bandwagon denigrating the board for a lack of common sense, it is unwise to almost immediately follow up with a post lacking common sense, especially on the heels of your "voluntary walkaway" post earlier today.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
...and he loves the limelight, though he is no "Quincy M.E."...JMO.

I loved Klugman as Quincy. And while Baden may be in high demand and in the limelight at this point in his career, he has earned his reputation well and is certainly no Cyril Wecht, Celebrity Coroner to the Stars. I know someone who personally worked with Baden. Fine man, fine credentials. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I am positive that the Mini was in Lewisburg, and either someone drove it there. Do you think tiny elves carried it there?

I am also positive that even to make it to a stream that drains into the Allegheny, it is about an 1.25 hour drive from Bellefonte, one way, in the opposite direction from Lewisburg.

I'm also positive that most, if not all of those stream a not large enough to carry remains south (much of the river is dammed), and get RFG's remains in a bridge near the end of Allegheny is about a 1.5 hour drive one way.

I'm also positive that takes some time to char a body and that it is hugely difficult to do in in a moving vehicle, unless you are planning to burn the vehicle as well.

:rolleyes:

[UndertheRadar]

Sigh.

Repeating disclaimer, I am not arguing that the remains Cind referred to are RG's, but if they were, JJ, who ever said RG and the Mini Cooper necessarily went in the same direction? Lewisburg could have been a staging ground, to direct attention THERE, while the body could have been transported hundreds of miles away for all you know.

By the way, on another note, it wasn't Kathleen Savio Peterson being referred to as dismembered when you talked about it being suggested that DP held his wife's head underwater. It was Stacy, being dismembered in the bathtub, to fit in the now potentially infamous "blue barrel."

But I'll let you go on that one. It IS difficult keeping Drew Peterson's abused, dead, and missing wives straight.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, if you claimed any common sense, you would realize that the Mini had to get to Lewisburg. You would also realize that where the Mini is, under any scenario, including your magical driver, that someone had to get it there and that one way that takes just over an hour.
I feel sorry for you if you cannot understand that.

You would also realize that it would take at least an 1.25 (closer to 1.50) hours to take a body to spot where it would be found in the Allegheny River and that the total time to drive to Lewisburg, then drop the body in the "spot" and get back to Bellefonte is going to be five hours, minimum.

You would also realize that if the body was charred, as reported, it cannot be done in a moving vehicle and that will take perhaps several hours to burn an cool to a point where it could be loaded into a car and taken to the spot where it is dumped.

Now, that's all done after the actual murder.

What "voluntary walkaway theory?" I have only stated that the "better friend's" comment cited in Forum are not based on money. It was not.

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, I'm not going to spend all night arguing the charred body details with you, because as I've said several times, I don't think those remains are RG's. But it's obvious you're not using common sense when you assume all these activities you outline had to be done by one person all in one time frame.

As for the "voluntary walkaway," I'm talking about the article you posted as a supposed example that "good and decent people" do indeed walk away voluntarily. Since Goddard was missing only a few days and no explanation was revealed for his being missing, it was hardly an example of a voluntary walkaway. As I pointed out, a health problem might have left him temporarily disoriented. Or maybe he and his wife had had a fight, and she tossed him out, a fact potentially not revealed in the article or to LE when she reported him missing--he could have been at a relative's or friend's licking his wounds and too depressed to go to work. There are any number of explanations for his being temporarily gone, none explained in any of the articles online, and no claim anywhere that he had voluntarily walked away from his life, only that he was missing.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, if you are talking about the body being hidden "hundreds of miles" away, in the time frame we're looking at, you will ultimately have to involved 4 plus people.

This has gone from a "crime of passion" to a massive conspiracy. These theories just get crazier and crazier as they go along.

I'm afraid that this rapidly becoming a morbid version of Mother Goose.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by psu#107
To Set the record striaght!! PF was a Probation Officer over 7 years and a very good one at that. She was a PSU grad a from Penn State (81-85) BS dgree. Some schools call there program Crimal Justice other call it Adm J. Right now PSU calls it Crime, Law and Justice. Some posters have no idea what they are talking about. This message board is famous for thst. SHE DID not leave because of her marriage to another PO. She left because she wanted a change. Please don't craete things that are not there. PF is an educated women who had nothing to do with this. She is terribly hurt by Ray disappearence. [/*]

Thank you! I knew I read that somewhere. As I said before, Good for PF. She sets an example for all young people of what a woman can do on her own!

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, try looking up the word "disclaimer," and then try re-reading all the disclaimers I've issued tonight.

Might save you some face.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, the only disclaimer you shoud put on your posts is:

This post will go any extreme to try to involve Patty Fornicola in murder. No matter how improbable, or impossible, I will try.

:rolleyes:

[UndertheRadar]

See, that's the problem Chump was talking about in that excellent post the other day, JJ.

I write out in huge neon letters: I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT PF DID X, Y, OR Z,

and JJ reads it as

UTR IS ARGUING PF DISMEMBERED RG! SHE'S ARGUING PF BURNED HIS BODY AND TRIED TO DISPOSE OF HIS CHARRED REMAINS!! OH WOE IS ME!!

Gimme a break.

I've been looking at evidence, JJ, objectively and dispassionately.

You're the one who has the objectivity problem, not me.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, you have been doing this from your very first post, as has been cited.

In this case, I said that the remains were unlikely to be involved in the RFG, simply because of the time factor involved.

About four days ago, we had "GStickley" talking about a crime of passion, which now has morphed into, literally, a several hundred mile trek across half the state and would involve probably at least four people.

And it still conflicts with the known evidence. As I've said, it is a defense of rationality, not of PEF.

I at least have two theories, mutually conflicting, but supported by the known evidence. They've held up since I first posted them. One of them, at least, can be pretty much ruled out if the evidence is not there.

[UndertheRadar]

Once again, JJ, your assertion doesn't make something true. My first posts here actually **resisted** the notion that PF was involved in any way. So put that in your hat and eat it! You can "cite" whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true.

As for the "crime of passion" angle, while GS may have mentioned it the other day, that has been YOUR ONLY angle on any PF involvement for more than a year, because it has allowed you to set up nifty little straw men, like the "no all night poison store" ruse, and the "no time to clean up that messy murder" ruse. IF PF was involved (DISCLAIMER: IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF as in theoretical), I would not necessarily ascribe to a crime of passion being the only option available and have said as much.

Furthermore, since I was NEVER freaking arguing that the charred remains Cind referenced were RG's--merely pointing out your lack of common sense in claiming that RG's body would have been found in the Susquehanna rather than the Allegheny--you really need to stop the whole Chubby Checker thing or you're going to dizzy yourself trying to twist things around in an effort to convince anyone other than yourself that I was ever actually making a case for RG having been charred and driven elsewhere.

Last, JJ, if anything strains rationality, it is your walkaway theory, with your murder scenario coming in a close second.

[UndertheRadar]

And one last thing, JJ.

If anything were going to tip my thinking toward believing PF might be involved in RG's disappearance, the most compelling case might have 3,900+ reasons.

That's right. Every single one of your posts does damage to public perception of her.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, GS raised the crime of passion possibility, and I've said that, in theory, that could have a motive. The problem is, even in GS's theory is that the decision to kill RFG gets made after 5:30 PM on 4/14/05.

I've said that if this is murder, by anyone, it wasn't a spur of the moment, crime of passion. It was well planned. Now, apparent motive, by anyone close to RFG is lacking, but note the word

UTR, I had no idea you were psychic, because spoke about PEF's involvement about 3 months before I was here, saying

" LE's refusal to look further at PF has bothered me, as well, and Bosak seems emotionally enmeshed with her at this point,... "

, "http://board2.courttv.com/showthread.php?postid=8103441#post8103441

It is interesting that only two or three posters have, been from the start, trying to direct the attention to PEF.. I've been questioning why LE has looked at all, at least from what has been published, at RFG's better friends and associated.

I'll add, in my earlier posts, I was asking where PEF was after work, and have alluded to a theory I had a few weeks after starting here that did involved PEF.

Yes, UTR, there is a reason to be very suspicious of several posters, past an present, who wish to come up with a convoluted explanation to do nearly anything to involve PEF.

My posts have noting to do with PEF crying or some personal knowledge of her, just what the evidence shows. You've to exceptional lengths to try to get around that evidence.

In your case, you started with all the evidence was planted, until the possibility became too ridiculous for you to support. Now it is basically, forensics would be able to find the evidence, the dogs were not really scented with RFG scent, and all the witnesses are wrong. All that flies in the face of rationality.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Im looking at cases prior to RG's disappearance and was wondering if LMarshall is any relation to the the owner Marshall from state college that owns the antique shop in Tyrone? These cases are a little interesting. Does anyone know if LM and RG got along?
http://www.statecollege.com/news/local-news/das-office-requests-gag-order-in-scott-case,16826/

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010216psu3.asp

http://fight-a-dui.com/2006/10/18/dui-charges-dismissed-after-legal-error/

http://fight-a-dui.com/category/information-by-state/pennsylvania/

http://ydr.inyork.com/ydr/psu/ci_7226307

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/156

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2006/11/11-08-06tdc/11-08-06dnews-08.asp

http://statecollegelaw.com/Nudity_ppost.html

http://psustudents.com/news/local/story/237935.html

http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/p/jph13/wmart.html [/*]

LM wasn't related to the Marshall in the one case anyways. That was quite a list of stories, especially the one distributing info at Walmart. Guess Walmart picks and chooses who can accost you in from of the store. At least he wasn't asking for money, like everyone in front of our store.

Good list CB. Missed you posting last night.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
[* I have no objection to grilling PF. But there comes a point (absent something tangible) where that is no longer useful. SNIPPED[/*]

If that's your reasoning, every single one of our posts about any possible suspect "is no longer useful."

Patty Fornicola is *the most* tangentially linked suspect in this case IMO.

[Cinderella]

J. J., I am not suggesting that those remains are of RG, but I wanted to post that anyhow because they at least have a sneaker. Why would it be impossible to be Ray. I know the flow of the water and I wasn't suggesting that Ray might have ended up there through the water. I read on one FBI site of Ray about possible abduction. Just because the Mini was found in Lewisburg does not mean that Ray is there. There keys are missing. I don't think that someone would park the car where Ray's body might be found unless he did jump in the river with his laptop.

You stated something like posting flyer's in Lewisburg would not really help this case because Ray could be anywhere. I agree with you, Ray could be anywhere. So let's not say that Ray could not have been that person. Hopefully he isn't, but he might have been abducted and taken another place which is more likely than him being in Lewisburg.

It is so sad that people would murder or harm another individual, but it happens so much anymore.

BTW, jumping in the river with his laptop is ridiculous to me.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J., I am not suggesting that those remains are of RG, but I wanted to post that anyhow because they at least have a sneaker. Why would it be impossible to be Ray. I know the flow of the water and I wasn't suggesting that Ray might have ended up there through the water. I read on one FBI site of Ray about possible abduction. Just because the Mini was found in Lewisburg does not mean that Ray is there. There keys are missing. I don't think that someone would park the car where Ray's body might be found unless he did jump in the river with his laptop.



I didn't say impossible; I said unlikely.



You stated something like posting flyer's in Lewisburg would not really help this case because Ray could be anywhere. I agree with you, Ray could be anywhere. So let's not say that Ray could not have been that person. Hopefully he isn't, but he might have been abducted and taken another place which is more likely than him being in Lewisburg.


I've said that it would be unlikely that the flyers would trigger anyone's memory in Lewisburg. That's because of the large amount of press coverage there.


It is so sad that people would murder or harm another individual, but it happens so much anymore.

BTW, jumping in the river with his laptop is ridiculous to me. [/*]

First point I agree.

Second point, I think it is more ridiculous that RFG took the hard drive out first and then jumped in the river.

One reason that I might see for bringing the laptop, however, is to look at downloaded photos. Even with that, I give suicide as being the least likely scenario.

[psu#107]

Again, sorry to offend so many. I never intended to say anyone on this message baord is uneducated. All appear to be very intelligent and just want answers to this very strange case. I too woant to know.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by psu#107
Again, sorry to offend so many. I never intended to say anyone on this message baord is uneducated. All appear to be very intelligent and just want answers to this very strange case. I too woant to know. [/*]

I never took your post to be a putdown to anyone on this forum. You were voicing your opinion to what you feel about PF. That was the problem for some.

Thank you for coming on here and telling us about PF's education and professional jobs.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by psu#107
Again, sorry to offend so many. I never intended to say anyone on this message baord is uneducated. All appear to be very intelligent and just want answers to this very strange case. I too woant to know. [/*]

I didn't take offense. I hadn't known that PEF was a probation officer.

The date you gave for PEF's graduation is different, however, from the one the Alumni Association give (and they generally get that right).

My particular point is that the degree doesn't translate that well into someone that would be an investigator. Academically, she would not have a great deal of training in how to collect (or plant) evidence (and in 1986, I'm not sure how much LE was using DNA). It looks like and AJ degree deals more with the administrative aspects of the justice system than it would investigative aspects.

Yes, it was something I looked at.

[UndertheRadar]

In general, JJ, a college degree earned more than twenty years ago is nothing more than a foundation for a career, and much more is learned during the course of a career than during four years in college.

Of course, generally speaking, criminals don't need college or careers to learn criminal techniques. TV and the internet appear to be quite helpful in that regard from everything I've read.

[Chump#7]

The title of the thread is: Do You Feel That PF Was Fully Investigated. 'Feel' having to do with your feelings or your emotions as to whether the threshold of 'fully investigated' has been reached. Posters are going to have varying ranges of whether that threshold has been met based on their own unique feelings of, for, or about PF. Me? I honestly don't have any. Don't care. PF might as well be a widget to me. But before I decide whether she's been 'fully investigated', I need the answers to several obvious questions. And being fair, a lot of these questions also apply to courthouse staff, friends/enemies, and family of PF& RG. So, if any of you know the answers to any of these questions, or have additional questions feel free to post. These questions are for 4/14/05 only, for starters. I'll post more when I have time.

1.) Where were you 4/14/05 prior to approx 5PM?

2.) Do you know where RG was prior to 5PM 4/14/05, or did he tell you where he was?

3.) Cameras show RG entering the courthouse approx 6PM and leaving at approx 9PM 4/14/05. Where were you during those hours?

4.) Who is your internet service provider at home? And for LE: Was there any internet activity between 6PM - 9PM 4/14/05 from PF's home?

5.) Did RG return to your house after 9PM 4/14/05? What time?

6.) After walking in the park with RG, did you have any other contact (face to face, email, land line, or cell phone) with anyone else the evening of 4/14/05 and early morning or 4/15/05? If so - who, when, and by what form?

I have a dozen more, but that's enough to chew on for now. Have at it

[Politigal]

I'd like to know if a friend went to the gym or met her at the gym on Friday, and was her presence at the gym verified by LE.

One possibility I've thought of, is that a gym friend drove the Mini to Lewisburg.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I didn't take offense. I hadn't known that PEF was a probation officer.

The date you gave for PEF's graduation is different, however, from the one the Alumni Association give (and they generally get that right).

My particular point is that the degree doesn't translate that well into someone that would be an investigator. Academically, she would not have a great deal of training in how to collect (or plant) evidence (and in 1986, I'm not sure how much LE was using DNA). It looks like and AJ degree deals more with the administrative aspects of the justice system than it would investigative aspects.

Yes, it was something I looked at. [/*]

JJ you keep mentioning investigator. Probation officers are more than an investigator. That might be a very small part of their job.

http://www.co.centre.pa.us/301.asp

[Politigal]

A gym friend could have been the owner of the aerobics tape.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


JJ you keep mentioning investigator. Probation officers are more than an investigator. That might be a very small part of their job.

http://www.co.centre.pa.us/301.asp [/*]

SJ, the point I'm trying to make is that PEF isn't an investigator, either by academic training or experience. Someone who was an investigator, a criminalist, for example, would know what other investigators would be looking at and might be able to avoid some of the more obvious mistakes.

[Cloudbuster]

I heard these words and only PF might know what they mean???

"Patty thinks horses are her soul".

After I heard that unconventially is everyone sure that LG's conversation was just routine the day before he disappeared?

Just seems to me more than one thing was going on. I know a father and daughters relationship are tight and I have no doubt in this case that RG loved LG with his soul!! As private as RG was I don't think he would tell PF every little thing. RG seemed somewhat tooo silent and hard to figure out what he would be thinking. He seems like the kind of guy that would do anything for his daughter. Those are what I feel anyway.

Im also wondering if RG was keeping something from PF because they were not married that might have pertained to LG and him? If possible did PF notice something wasn't quite right?

Only PF could answer this one too---If RG would have left what he told PF that morning as that and NOT made the call to her- It would not have made any sense. Seems to me he had to call PF cause what he told her that morning would not have made sense had he not called. Unconventially thats how I understood it anyway. I guess i will never know though.:read:

[Serendipitous1]

I believe Lara holds a key (purse strings with trustee status) to unlock this mystery. I think she got some good advice early on, but which has not panned out. Assuming LE is at a standstill...it is not too late for her to turn this around. On the other hand, the total silence could mean that LE is still actively sniffing around. So the time may not yet be ripe. JMOO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I believe Lara holds a key (purse strings with trustee status) to unlock this mystery. I think she got some good advice early on, but which has not panned out. Assuming LE is at a standstill...it is not too late for her to turn this around. On the other hand, the total silence could mean that LE is still actively sniffing around. So the time may not yet be ripe. JMOO [/*]

I do think the "truthiness" of the matter is, that a bigger reward might have helped in this case.

edited to add:

IMO, there are probably at least 2 people who know what happened to Gricar, and I figure 1 of those 2 probably told at least 1 more.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I believe Lara holds a key (purse strings with trustee status) to unlock this mystery. I think she got some good advice early on, but which has not panned out. Assuming LE is at a standstill...it is not too late for her to turn this around. On the other hand, the total silence could mean that LE is still actively sniffing around. So the time may not yet be ripe. JMOO [/*]

Agreed! Unconvential but somehow its some kind of insurance deal. Just seems like 2 things was going on and I don't believe PF knew everything. I believe they both hold a key that only they would know what Im talking about. Maybe LE knows and it's under the radar. Whatever happened I can hear words "I tried I tried" and that don't pertain to PF. :shrug:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


Agreed! Unconvential but somehow its some kind of insurance deal. Just seems like 2 things was going on and I don't believe PF knew everything. I believe they both hold a key that only they would know what Im talking about. Maybe LE knows and it's under the radar. Whatever happened I can hear words "I tried I tried" and that don't pertain to PF. :shrug: [/*]

Two other possibilities:

1. LG is convinced (or has been convinced) that RFG is dead (probably by suicide). If I thought that my father had committed suicide, I doubt if I'd offer a reward for the body.

2. LG thinks (or knows) that he walked away and isn't going to upset the apple cart; it's not illegal and she's an adult. She was polygraphed in the later summer or early fall of 2005. It's late Fall 2007.

I'll also note that the polygraph was widely reported.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Two other possibilities:

1. LG is convinced (or has been convinced) that RFG is dead (probably by suicide). If I thought that my father had committed suicide, I doubt if I'd offer a reward for the body.

2. LG thinks (or knows) that he walked away and isn't going to upset the apple cart; it's not illegal and she's an adult. She was polygraphed in the later summer or early fall of 2005. It's late Fall 2007.

I'll also note that the polygraph was widely reported. [/*]

Could be your number 1 but leave out suicide, change it to foul play. I don't think she knows for sure though as in concrete answers.
One thing Im totally convinced of is the love Ray held for her. If there was anyone Ray would have showed his real self to it would be Lara. I think he was passive with others on a personal relationship (friends). I think he only told PF certain things but shared moments of openess and occassional feelings. I also feel PF sorta knew that about him though and excepted him for the way he was. It might have been annoying for her at times but thats normal.
MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


Could be your number 1 but leave out suicide, change it to foul play. I don't think she knows for sure though as in concrete answers.


No, if this was foul play, she'd be either hounding LE or she'd be posting a reward.


One thing Im totally convinced of is the love Ray held for her. If there was anyone Ray would have showed his real self to it would be Lara. I think he was passive with others on a personal relationship (friends).

I think there was love there, but I'm far from convinced that this would prevent him from either committing suicide or walking away. LG was an adult and living on the other side of the country.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ its not suicide- but I see what your saying though. I think LG feels it was foulplay too and honestly I don't think she would hound LE. TG covers that angle. What I was really trying to say was that Lara's relationship was different from all his other relationships with people, even PF sorta of. I will rephrase--Lara sits at the top above all others.
JMO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ its not suicide- but I see what your saying though. I think LG feels it was foulplay too and honestly I don't think she would hound LE. TG covers that angle. What I was really trying to say was that Lara's relationship was different from all his other relationships with people, even PF sorta of. I will rephrase--Lara sits at the top above all others.
JMO [/*]

It's certainly different.

I know that if it was my father that was missing, and I thought that there was a good chance of murder, I'd be using money to pursue the case, or I'd be asking LE why there has been no arrest, even if it was through my family spokesman.

I've arranged to see my father's GP tomorrow, just to go over his death. I want to make sure that everything that could have been done was done, even though I have no real doubt that it was done. This is a guy who died while in the hospital, more than 80 years old, of a condition which he'd had for more than two decades, and several hundred year family history of the same problem. The snow storm may prevent it.

[Cinderella]

I would like to know also because I came upon this.

Here is the Montoursville Police Department saying that they were involved in the Lycoming County. If this guy was from Montoursville then he might have a conflict of interest in another way also.

Montoursville Police Department
Our department also has officers active in the Lycoming County Drug Task Force and the Northcentral Task Force.
www.montourpd.org/ [Found on Ask.com]


Can't wait for PSU 107's answer.

[J. J. in Phila]

In all fairness, if RFG wanted the information on the a "shaken baby case" that was in could, he simply could have called up any on the DA's Office in any of those counties and gotten any information he needed.

As to the Lake Raystown sighting, the lake is big enough that he could at any one location along it.

Also, even the most northern point, Lake Raystown is south (SE) of the PSP location; he'd have to pass the PSP to get to the lake.

We don't have too much information on the sighting, which makes it difficult to analyze the sighting.

[gstickley]

Originally posted by logicworks


<snip>
Who was LM's attorney at the time? When exactly were the two new attorneys 'announced'?
JMO [/*]

LW, this is what I've been able to find thus far; am still searching.

By Erin L. Nissley
enissley@centredaily.com
Posted on Sat, Dec. 18, 2004

BELLEFONTE - A local defense lawyer has withdrawn from the case of a former Boalsburg man accused of killing his 3-month-old son in 2002. About 30 people filled the courtroom Friday for a brief hearing in the case of Alejandro Vargas Mendez, 30, charged with first- and third-degree murder in the death of his son, Lucas.

Officials have said that the child died as a result of shaken baby syndrome while being cared for by Mendez. The defendant's wife, Lisa Mullenax, said Friday that she continues to support her husband. "He is 100 percent innocent," she said. "All the medical evidence shows that."

Earlier this week, Mendez's attorney, Bruce Manchester, filed papers with the court asking to be allowed to withdraw as Mendez's counsel. Manchester wrote that he has been unable to work with Mullenax. Mendez, who is referred to incorrectly in court paperwork as Alejandro Mendez Vargas, was arrested in August 2003 after a yearlong investigation into the baby's death on Sept. 2, 2002.

Manchester has represented Mendez since his arrest. Manchester wrote in court papers that he has consulted with several experts in the field of shaken baby syndrome and cannot reveal the names of those experts to Mullenax. "She has continually thwarted counsel's need to keep these names confidential," Manchester wrote. "Further, she has convinced her spouse to direct petitioner to disclose these experts to her."

[gstickley]

WTAJ TV (5-4-04)
NEW DETAILS IN A CENTRE COUNTY SHAKEN BABY CASE THAT STILL HAS NO TRIAL DATE.
The defense attorney for 29-year old Alejandro Mendez-Vargaz says he wants Elaine Whitfield Sharp to be the co-council in the case. Sharp got national attention for defending a British nanny accused of shaking a baby in Boston in 1997. The Centre County District Attorney objected to Sharp's joining the defense team...and a judge went along with that recommendation.

Vargas' attorney says if Sharp isn't co-council, he expects to use her as a consultant during the trial. Vargas is accused of killing his three-month-old-son in August of 2002.


Fox Channel 8 (4-30-04)
SHAKEN BABY CASE
New developments in a Centre County murder case. A Massachusetts lawyer who specializes in shaken baby syndrome cases has joined the defense team of Alejandro Vargas Mendez. The former Boalsburg man is facing murder charges in the death of his infant son. Police were called to the home in August of 2002 after a neighbor called 911. The baby had stopped breathing when authorities arrived on scene. An autopsy determined the cause of death was blunt force trauma and the manner of death ruled a homicide. Mendez's attorney argues the medical evidence does not support shaken baby syndrome. Sharp will only help with building a defense for Mendez, a judge has denied her request to represent Mendez in Court.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by gstickley


LW, this is what I've been able to find thus far; am still searching.

By Erin L. Nissley
enissley@centredaily.com
Posted on Sat, Dec. 18, 2004

BELLEFONTE - A local defense lawyer has withdrawn from the case of a former Boalsburg man accused of killing his 3-month-old son in 2002. About 30 people filled the courtroom Friday for a brief hearing in the case of Alejandro Vargas Mendez, 30, charged with first- and third-degree murder in the death of his son, Lucas.

Officials have said that the child died as a result of shaken baby syndrome while being cared for by Mendez. The defendant's wife, Lisa Mullenax, said Friday that she continues to support her husband. "He is 100 percent innocent," she said. "All the medical evidence shows that."

Earlier this week, Mendez's attorney, Bruce Manchester, filed papers with the court asking to be allowed to withdraw as Mendez's counsel. Manchester wrote that he has been unable to work with Mullenax. Mendez, who is referred to incorrectly in court paperwork as Alejandro Mendez Vargas, was arrested in August 2003 after a yearlong investigation into the baby's death on Sept. 2, 2002.

Manchester has represented Mendez since his arrest. Manchester wrote in court papers that he has consulted with several experts in the field of shaken baby syndrome and cannot reveal the names of those experts to Mullenax. "She has continually thwarted counsel's need to keep these names confidential," Manchester wrote. "Further, she has convinced her spouse to direct petitioner to disclose these experts to her." [/*]


Was Mendez trying to hold up the hearing for those 3 years so he could get a mistrial? 2002 to 2005 or 2006?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981



Was Mendez trying to hold up the hearing for those 3 years so he could get a mistrial? 2002 to 2005 or 2006? [/*]

No, but Mullenax was trying to gain public support for Vargas. She went forward with some really questionable "experts." Manchester didn't like it (I can understand that) and withdrew.

The case was really in disarray until Heymeyer (I think that was his name) came in. They had really top notch experts and fought vigorously. Moton is nationally recognized and Rourke literally wrote the on SBS.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is a more recent article on the Vargas case, but you might have to google it:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/special/20071028_What_Killed_Baby_Lucas__The_law_said_he_d ied_of_abuse__Medical_science_wasnt_so_sure_.html

it's from the October 28, 2007 Philadelphia Inquirer.

So Morton sent a sample of the baby's blood for a test called PIVKA-II - protein induced by vitamin K absence.

In a healthy person, PIVKA-II levels are at or close to zero, as measured in nanograms of the protein per milliliter of blood.

Sara's [Glick] level was over 100.

Sara Glick was the Amish woman, but she was treated at Geisinger.


It was a PIVKA-II test. The lab said a normal value would be between zero and 3.5. Lucas scored a 22.7.


In other words, there was objective evidence that Lucas had a Vitamin K deficiency.

Here is Marshall on the decision.


Yet Marshall, the prosecutor, was wary of going to trial. He would have to prove Alejandro was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And he knew Morton and Rorke-Adams were heavyweights.

"The last thing I wanted was Holmes Morton or somebody being able to write in the New England Journal of Medicine that vitamin K deficiency is a legitimate defense for shaken baby," he said.

The next day, Nov. 10, Marshall called Hehmeyer. He was offering a deal.



Vargas actually rejected that deal.

It turns even the prosecution experts disagreed. One said there had to have been some head trauma while the other said there was none.

This was a collapsing prosecution case. Had RFG been there, he may have dropped it.

[Politigal]

Pete Bosak printed this yesterday in his Q & A in the Centre Daily Times

AHi redpeni, and thanks for keeping this alive. And yes, it most certainly has been strange to say the very least. But it's sad more than anything. Still, there are no new leads and nothing new to report. I still see Patty at the courthouse, but we don't talk much. She's still in pain over losing Ray, so I just don't bring it up. I talk to Tony Gricar every now and again, about the case, Penn State football, etc. But he too is at a loss. He's more frustrated than you can ever know, but he doesn't know what more to do. Believe me, Patty and Tony, and all of Ray's friends and family, want answers more than anything. The problem is, where do we find those answers?
Pete Bosak 12/13/07


I know that Tony has worked on the forefront & behind the scenes on this case, trying to find out what happened to his uncle. And, I think he did so not only for himself & his brother, but on behalf of Lara Gricar as well.

And I know it's been asked before ---

but what in the world has Patty Fornicola done?

Has she ever searched along the river in Lewisburg?

Has she posted flyers?

Has she asked for Michael Madeira to relinquish this case to the Atty General?

Has she or her family ever offered to put up any reward monies?

What has she done?

[Serendipitous1]

Pete Bosak posted this Thursday in his Q & A in the Centre Daily Times:

Hi redpeni, and thanks for keeping this alive. And yes, it most certainly has been strange to say the very least. But it's sad more than anything. Still, there are no new leads and nothing new to report. I still see Patty at the courthouse, but we don't talk much. She's still in pain over losing Ray, so I just don't bring it up. I talk to Tony Gricar every now and again, about the case, Penn State football, etc. But he too is at a loss. He's more frustrated than you can ever know, but he doesn't know what more to do. Believe me, Patty and Tony, and all of Ray's friends and family, want answers more than anything. The problem is, where do we find those answers?. Pete Bosak

MOO - To me the rubricated line is a sad reality. With everything he knows about this case (including about PF), TG's parting speculation here was a virtual toss-up between foul play and suicide. And what (absent a body or other evidence) does one do with suicide? My perspective is a bit different. But what can I do with that?

[Cinderella]

NOTHING, LIKE THE REST OF US.

WHO IS GOING TO SPEAK UP FOR RAY?

The soulmate and family should be wanting to keep this story alive. I am glad that Ray didn't give up on anyone when they needed his help.

I truly think that some big attorney needs to be brought into this.
Put the mini up for an attorney or a reward. See what happens.

Why does it seem like the onlly people that care about Ray are on crime boards trying to solve this case? I thank the dear Lord that I don't live in Bellefonte.

[J. J. in Phila]

In terms of PEF, give as much information to LE as she can, search the house, look over the records that she has.

As for searching, I don't expect PEF to start diving into the Susquehanna.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
NOTHING, LIKE THE REST OF US.

WHO IS GOING TO SPEAK UP FOR RAY?

The soulmate and family should be wanting to keep this story alive. I am glad that Ray didn't give up on anyone when they needed his help.

I truly think that some big attorney needs to be brought into this.
Put the mini up for an attorney or a reward. See what happens.

Why does it seem like the onlly people that care about Ray are on crime boards trying to solve this case? I thank the dear Lord that I don't live in Bellefonte. [/*]

An attorney for what? How much was the reward and what were the results?

I will agree that the average Centre County resident is no longer interested.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
In terms of PEF, give as much information to LE as she can, search the house, look over the records that she has.

As for searching, I don't expect PEF to start diving into the Susquehanna. [/*]

JJ - that's absurd. I never suggested that she dive into the river.

Get a grip.

But what has she really done to keep this case in the spotlight?

What has she done - really ???

[Serendipitous1]

Notwithstanding some "big secret", I think there was way too much reliance on LE...by everyone involved. MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Notwithstanding some "big secret", I think there was way too much reliance on LE...by everyone involved. MOO [/*]

Other than a grand jury, I doubt if anyone if anyone else has the resources to do that much.

A lot of things could be subpoenaed, but a PI couldn't do it.

There may be a "big secret," but I have not even heard anything plausible (I've heard some implausible stuff). It would almost have to be something so damaging to RFG that everyone wanted it hidden.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Other than a grand jury, I doubt if anyone if anyone else has the resources to do that much.

A lot of things could be subpoenaed, but a PI couldn't do it.

There may be a "big secret," but I have not even heard anything plausible (I've heard some implausible stuff). It would almost have to be something so damaging to RFG that everyone wanted it hidden. [/*]I am convinced that a "big secret" exists. It has not helped LE. But it might help a PI. MOO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I am convinced that a "big secret" exists. It has not helped LE. But it might help a PI. MOO [/*]

What are your thoughts on the "secret?"

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

What are your thoughts on the "secret?" [/*]I can only guess what the secret is. But its existence is apparent to those who have followed this from the beginning. Then again, it could be the wine. MO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I can only guess what the secret is. But its existence is apparent to those who have followed this from the beginning. Then again, it could be the wine. MO [/*]

come on - spill the beans -

What's your guess?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

come on - spill the beans - What's your guess? [/*]You will have to ask TG (if you can find him)...I am ducking for the warm covers.

[Cinderella]

I think that I might know what the Big Secret is. I think that the big secret went as planned. In the end it ended up hurting people and that wasn't in the plan. It also go too much out of line than expected. Maybe more people cared about Ray then he knew. I think the big secret protected Ray's safety and was the only way that it could be. I hope all the Gricar's and PF can Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

If this scenario is true then I am sorry if I offended anyone. Just as the Gricar family had to do what they had to do, so the posters seemed they they had to do what they had to do for justice for Ray.

I hope that it is the big secret and I can get my life back without having to worry anymore.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
NOTHING, LIKE THE REST OF US.

WHO IS GOING TO SPEAK UP FOR RAY?

The soulmate and family should be wanting to keep this story alive. I am glad that Ray didn't give up on anyone when they needed his help.

I truly think that some big attorney needs to be brought into this.
Put the mini up for an attorney or a reward. See what happens.

Why does it seem like the onlly people that care about Ray are on crime boards trying to solve this case? I thank the dear Lord that I don't live in Bellefonte. [/*]

PF was appealing to RG, to come home, that they would wait for him. She didn't believe he commited suicide. She was thinking he was still out there. Why would she get rid of the Mini to be uselessly waiting for someone to come forward with info, when she thinks he could be alive? She is waiting for HIM to come back and his Mini will be there for him.

I also thought the statement made in the phone call was "I am on Rt 192" Not driving towards Lewisburg or the SOS or Lock Haven, just ON Rt 192. Not even which direction. That was questioned, which direction, and it was only after cell phone was checked that it was said where on Rt 192 the call came from.

If someone did something to him, it could have been after that phone call, and he could have been just getting to his destination on Rt 192, or coming back on Rt 192 with other places to go and just would not have made it back to take care of Honey on a scheduled basis. Lewisburg might not have been on his agenda.

I would question who lives in the area where that important phone call was made. Who might he have been going to see, for what reason and were the people in that area questioned about seeing him.

Just because PF hasn't said anything, doesn't mean she hasn't been out searching, looking at places she knows he frequented, looking through paperwork questioning anything and everything. Don't believe for one minute she would tell everything she has done, but she would be doing her part.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
You will have to ask TG (if you can find him)...I am ducking for the warm covers. [/*]


S1, I love your posts. :santa:

BTW, Lets shake things up....ducking in the warm covers with S1.
Now Pgal will be jealous.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella



S1, I love your posts. :santa:

BTW, Lets shake things up....ducking in the warm covers with S1.
Now Pgal will be jealous. [/*]

just a little hint - S1 likes flannels....:tongue:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I also thought the statement made in the phone call was "I am on Rt 192" Not driving towards Lewisburg or the SOS or Lock Haven, just ON Rt 192. Not even which direction. That was questioned, which direction, and it was only after cell phone was checked that it was said where on Rt 192 the call came from.



I was under the impression that he basically gave a direction of travel.

I don't believe that LE ever determined that the the call was placed from 192, only that it was bounced off of the cell tower in the Brush Valley. I've tried at least to refer to it as the call from Brush Valley.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Politigal


just a little hint - S1 likes flannels....:tongue: [/*]


OH my gosh. I knew it, What the heck are you doing under the covers with S1, Pgal. Surely not looking for Ray. What do you think that you are under cover. Me jumping out from under the covers. Three's a crowd. Heading to J.J.'s to get warm. :)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella



OH my gosh. I knew it, What the heck are you doing under the covers with S1, Pgal. Surely not looking for Ray. What do you think that you are under cover. Me jumping out from under the covers. Three's a crowd. Heading to J.J.'s to get warm. :) [/*]

It's cold and icy here. ;)

Ah, the"big secret" is possible and would explain why LE didn't do a follow through. The first weekend, fantastic, the first week, even that is very good, but after that, it just kind of slacks off. And TG and PEF don't seem to be in on it.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I was under the impression that he basically gave a direction of travel.

I don't believe that LE ever determined that the the call was placed from 192, only that it was bounced off of the cell tower in the Brush Valley. I've tried at least to refer to it as the call from Brush Valley. [/*]

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:H1rox2KveAQJ:www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156683,00.html+patty+fornicola+ray+gricar&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Quote:
"FORNICOLA: No. When I left for work that morning he had indicated that he was going to take the day off and he had fallen back to sleep. I left him a note asking that if he decided to go anywhere to let me know, so that I could go home and take care of the dog.

And he called and said that, he said "I'm on 192. I'm not going to make it home to take care of the dog. Would you be able to go home?" And I said, "Sure." He said, "Thanks. I love you." I said, "I love you too," and that was the last I heard from him."
Quote

[Cloudbuster]

Third witness says she saw Gricar http://www.centredaily.com/mld/cent...ws/11457629.htm

In this article I have as a printout I found some things that stand out. I have often wondered who started this case looking as only a missing persons case. I don't know if the person is in some type of denial or what but, "we the family are continuing to treat this as a MISSING persons case and would greatly appreciate the media continuing to do the same," Fornicola said. ((( Is it to remain that was Ms?)))

Fornicola ended her statement by asking anyone who has seen Gricar or has any information about him to call police. She did NOT answer questions. ((((WHY))))? Does she know something more perhaps?

The postal carrier who picked up the cassette said He didn't remember seeing Gricar's red and white Mini Cooper. ((((if it was there how could you miss it))))????

Five fingerprints found in or on the mini cooper have been sent to the state police crime lab in Harrisburg and will be compared with Fornicola's and Gricar's prints, Dixon said. (((Im wondering if all those prints was Ray's))))?

Im not saying she did anything wrong so don't take this that way but no answering of questions on April 22, 2005 thats early and why not answer questions? I would do anthing that might help someone I love. At that point in time no one was saying anything about her so I guess Im just wondering why the silence at the time when talking was at its most important stage??

I do not believe she is a k at all, but what looks out of place is the possibility of knowing more than what was disclosed.

Seriously you wonder why he is not found? Ladies could you please say something that would be helpful?

JMHO

[Cloudbuster]

Im beginning to really think he left early in the morning hours cause I believe the phone call was not about Honey but to let PF know what was going on and to explain it cause it didn't make sense with taking a half day off. It also in my mind explains the cloths being a earlier days description. If he left early then chances are she didn't really get much of a view. Maybe she did tell LE all this and it might be one of those things they hold back.

Possibilites
MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:H1rox2KveAQJ:www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156683,00.html+patty+fornicola+ray+gricar&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Quote:
"FORNICOLA:

And he called and said that, he said "I'm on 192. I'm not going to make it home to take care of the dog. Would you be able to go home?" And I said, "Sure." He said, "Thanks. I love you." I said, "I love you too," and that was the last I heard from him."
Quote [/*]

Another quote that I've heard was "I'm on 192, going toward Lewisburg." He also mentioned Honey by name.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Third witness says she saw Gricar http://www.centredaily.com/mld/cent...ws/11457629.htm


Fornicola ended her statement by asking anyone who has seen Gricar or has any information about him to call police. She did NOT answer questions. ((((WHY))))? Does she know something more perhaps?


She may not have wished to speculate. Remember TG's (natural) reaction to "Water Street."


The postal carrier who picked up the cassette said He didn't remember seeing Gricar's red and white Mini Cooper. ((((if it was there how could you miss it))))????


A lot of people don't notice or remember, a few days later, a car in a parking lot.



Five fingerprints found in or on the mini cooper have been sent to the state police crime lab in Harrisburg and will be compared with Fornicola's and Gricar's prints, Dixon said. (((Im wondering if all those prints was Ray's))))?


According to PB, and the police, yes.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ it was in articles that PF said that Ray was working harder than usual and fatigued and taking naps but she never said what he was working so hard on that got him to this point?

Every article I've read on him none of them say this about him but only this once before he disappeared? So In my mind he was working something harder and bigger than ever reported. You can't say he wasn't cause PF said he was.:)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ it was in articles that PF said that Ray was working harder than usual and fatigued and taking naps but she never said what he was working so hard on that got him to this point?

Every article I've read on him none of them say this about him but only this once before he disappeared? So In my mind he was working something harder and bigger than ever reported. You can't say he wasn't cause PF said he was.:) [/*]

What article? Could you provive a link?

I do not recall it.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


What article? Could you provive a link?

I do not recall it. [/*]

JJ here is one link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7592249/

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


JJ here is one link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7592249/ [/*]

CB, I didn't see anything about PEF claiming RFG working more in that usual article. If I missed it, could you cite the quote.

The only thing of even minor interest was the Friday night date:

Gricar was so excited, in fact, that he and Fornicola would often get together at a restaurant on a Friday night, order drinks and count down the days to retirement.

"Often" isn't a scheduled date.

[Cloudbuster]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1385696/posts
No recent threats had been made against Gricar, and none of his cases appeared likely to be involved, officials have said. They also said they did not know if Gricar had any medical issues, although he had been(((( working hard lately. )))

Okay working hard lately and on what??? How did they know???

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1385696/posts
No recent threats had been made against Gricar, and none of his cases appeared likely to be involved, officials have said. They also said they did not know if Gricar had any medical issues, although he had been(((( working hard lately. )))

Okay working hard lately and on what??? How did they know??? [/*]

It could mean that he hadn't seemed to have slacked off his work load. Note it doesn't state that that he was working harder than normal.

[Cloudbuster]

But JJ it has the feel of them knowing he was working hard on something and that something has everything to do with this IMHO. Why didn't they just say for example his workload hasn't fultered? Or nothing unusal in his workload or everything seemed normal about his workload?

Working hard lately to me means you know what the person is working hard on to know that he was. It feel so right to and I think my stomach just convinced me. roflmao:lol:

[Politigal]

I found some interesting quotes on cached articles

http://tinyurl.com/ysuv3g

After a review of the case by the Centre Daily Times found potential missed witnesses, a credible sighting by an assistant district attorney in Bellefonte the day Gricar vanished and other potential missteps by the lead investigator, Gricar said Bellefonte police committed "a colossal collapse in judgment" in some instances.
...
"I won't comment on anything Tony said," Fornicola said.
...
Although Tony Gricar said the family has conceded that Ray Gricar is likely dead, Fornicola is not willing to say that.

:read:

[Cloudbuster]

Pgal she got a different opinion than TG and I gotta wonder why? It makes sense she knew something more and possibly bought into something told to her. Or perhaps she don't wanta think that way.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
But JJ it has the feel of them knowing he was working hard on something and that something has everything to do with this IMHO. Why didn't they just say for example his workload hasn't fultered? Or nothing unusal in his workload or everything seemed normal about his workload?

Working hard lately to me means you know what the person is working hard on to know that he was. It feel so right to and I think my stomach just convinced me. roflmao:lol: [/*]

We don't have a single witness saying that RFG was working harder than normal. He did put in a lot of hours at the office.

[Cloudbuster]

So basically what your saying is the paper made that statement up then???
working hard lately means exactly what it says. Which part is confusing?
Im unsure why you would want to remake a different meaning to that.??
Ray wasn't working hard he was just working is what your saying.
Oh I get it Ray wasn't working hard lately he was just working period.
Maybe you should tell the press they need to change that to what they really mean lol.
:santa:

[Politigal]

When posting with JJ, you simply have to pretend you're a brick wall.


;)

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
When posting with JJ, you simply have to pretend you're a brick wall.
;) [/*]Brick walls are easy. Underground concrete bunkers are much tougher. We need a "bunker buster" right about now. MOO

[Cinderella]

Do you have any ideas of what will bust it?

Funny note, CDT states that people are complaining to Pennsylvania and Washington, D.C. over trying to make I-80 a toll road.


Too bad that more people can't speak up for Ray.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Politigal
When posting with JJ, you simply have to pretend you're a brick wall.


;) [/*]



I give you credit as you know alot. One thing that I am especially curious about is how do you know S1 likes flannel?

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Brick walls are easy. Underground concrete bunkers are much tougher. We need a "bunker buster" right about now. MOO [/*]

I was thinking back to when I was a kid --- my mom used to always tell me that I was so stubborn that she thought I would probably argue with a brick wall.

I think my mama knew JJ. lol

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella




I give you credit as you know alot. One thing that I am especially curious about is how do you know S1 likes flannel? [/*]

I was teasin'....just from reading S1's post about flannel jammies.

I honestly don't know if S1 is a man or a woman. But, Tony sort of gave us a clue one time...with a story about a rolled up $20 bill.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
So basically what your saying is the paper made that statement up then???
working hard lately means exactly what it says. Which part is confusing?
Im unsure why you would want to remake a different meaning to that.??
Ray wasn't working hard he was just working is what your saying.
Oh I get it Ray wasn't working hard lately he was just working period.
Maybe you should tell the press they need to change that to what they really mean lol.
:santa: [/*]

No, what I am saying that we don't have any evidence of RFG doing more than he normally did (which was an up to 60 hour week).

As far back as the early 90's it was noted, even by political opponents, how much RFG worked. JKA also noted it. I've not seen any greater than normal activities.

[Serendipitous1]

It seems logical that PF might embellish the facts in order that LE could obtain a warrant for medical records. That does not, however, explain JKA's observations...which she has said were confirmed by others in his office, through DZ. MOO

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, what I am saying that we don't have any evidence of RFG doing more than he normally did (which was an up to 60 hour week).

As far back as the early 90's it was noted, even by political opponents, how much RFG worked. JKA also noted it. I've not seen any greater than normal activities. [/*]


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-04-18-penn-da_x.htm

---------------------

SNIP

Authorities in Bellefonte said Ray Gricar did not have any personal or family problems, though colleagues said he had been working hard recently.

SNIP

----------------------

I think that you could take this to mean that Ray was working more than usual.

[Cloudbuster]

I agree with you Cind on working hard recently. One thing JJ that lacks the evidence is what they did not say. They failed to say what he was working hard on recently. Is that because they did not know what he was working on more recently???? That more recent work is part of why he disappeared IMO. Undercover comes to mind. PGAL and Cind please don't misunderstand undercover roflmao. :santa:

JJ chill we are not in a courtroom. lol I know you miss UTR but I could never give you that kind of spunky fight back. I don't even understand how she or he even did lol. Im just me and Im not on that level of sofistication lol. My mind is very open and things I believe in you would never begin to understand. That way of thinking guides me through my senses and not so much on the logical side. The side that I trust and believe in the most is the side that gives me answers. You should try it cause it works. Problem is the very questions that you ask you must be careful for you might not like the answers. Thats what Im learning now.

I just opened my fortune cookie and it reads: The wise man is the one that makes you think that he is dumb. hmmm I like that one.

oh crap the other cookie reads lol: The answer will not come to you. You need to look for it. Sorry JJ I think that second cookie is for you lol. Just kidding. Have one on me.:beer:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal


I was teasin'....just from reading S1's post about flannel jammies.

I honestly don't know if S1 is a man or a woman. But, Tony sort of gave us a clue one time...with a story about a rolled up $20 bill. [/*]???

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-04-18-penn-da_x.htm

---------------------

SNIP

Authorities in Bellefonte said Ray Gricar did not have any personal or family problems, though colleagues said he had been working hard recently.

SNIP

----------------------

I think that you could take this to mean that Ray was working more than usual. [/*]

I wouldn't especially considering he was "playing hooky" on part of 4/14.

[Cinderella]

Well I kind of take S1 to be a SILK person. :biggrin: I was going to say SATIN, but people say that SATIN is not as smooth as SILK :punch:

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I wouldn't especially considering he was "playing hooky" on part of 4/14. [/*]



J. J. that is not what the text meant. You know it. It is a wonder that you are not a saleperson. J. J. take a deep breath, write 50 times, J. J. needs to fess up when he is shown evidence suggesting otherwise.

When you are done, I will correct it with my RED pencil. Everyone that I know of is not 100% Correct all the time. Now fess up? :punch: GIVE IT UP. :biggrin: Why do we always go around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around.

You must have some book out titled: The world according to J. J.

I agree with the poster that stated that your mother probably said J. J. did you spill Pepsi on the rug, and you said no because it was Coke. :santa:

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
??? [/*]

I think you had posted about finding a rolled up $20 bill or something like that, and Tony jokingly posted about how someone might react if you were to try & hand them a tightly rolled 20.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I got the impression he was sort of describing you as a big guy or slightly intimidating?

[Politigal]

I found the post -- but it was Sherrijean who found a $20

tonyGricar
Member

Registered: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 474


quote:Originally posted by sherrijean981
<*>You sound a little like me, looking down in the parking lots and sidewalks, in case something was lost. I also found $20 but later the person came back looking for it and the look on that young woman's face was worth more than $20, when I handed it to her.

I'd give anything to see the look on the person's face if Serendipitous tried to return that tightly rolled up twenty.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
Old Post 09-12-2007 05:48 AM
tonyGricar is offline Click Here to See the Profile for tonyGricar Click here to Send tonyGricar a Private Message Find more posts by tonyGricar Add tonyGricar to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella




J. J. that is not what the text meant. You know it. It is a wonder that you are not a saleperson. J. J. take a deep breath, write 50 times, J. J. needs to fess up when he is shown evidence suggesting otherwise.

When you are done, I will correct it with my RED pencil. Everyone that I know of is not 100% Correct all the time. Now fess up? :punch: GIVE IT UP. :biggrin: Why do we always go around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around.

You must have some book out titled: The world according to J. J.

I agree with the poster that stated that your mother probably said J. J. did you spill Pepsi on the rug, and you said no because it was Coke. :santa: [/*]

Cind, sources going back to the early 90's indicate that RFG was working close to 60 hours a week. JKA notes that he often worked nights. There may be something in the CDT Forum about it. The one day that we know about, RFG is out part of the day.

We go around because we posts masquerading as factual, but are really an unsupported opinion. You are not the only poster doing it, and far from the worst offender, but this is an example.

We've had numerous posters commenting on the amount of time RFG put in, for more than a decade. Now suddenly, we get the unsupported claim that RFG was really working hard on something, but we don't have a single person involved in the case saying that .

[gstickley]

This is a partial transcript from "On the Record," May 13, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: A desperate search is underway for a missing Pennsylvania prosecutor. Ray Gricar (search) has not been heard from since he called his girlfriend on April 15 at about 11:30 a.m. Police have no idea what happened to him and have even turned to a psychic to help them solve this mystery.

Joining us from State College, Pennsylvania is Ray Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola, welcome Patty.

PATTY FORNICOLA, GIRLFRIEND OF MISSING D.A.: Hi, Greta.

VAN SUSTEREN: Patty, first of all, I guess I should say how are you dealing with this? I mean no one knows what happened to Ray. He just vanished.

FORNICOLA: It's very frustrating. It's an emotional roller coaster. It's awful. It's horrible.

VAN SUSTEREN: Take me back to April 15th about 11:30 a.m. Did you place the call to him or did he place the call to you?

FORNICOLA: He placed the call to me. I happened to be the person, the receptionist that day and answered the phone and it was Ray.

VAN SUSTEREN: Were you expecting this call or were you expecting him in the office, anything unusual about it?

FORNICOLA: No. When I left for work that morning he had indicated that he was going to take the day off and he had fallen back to sleep. I left him a note asking that if he decided to go anywhere to let me know, so that I could go home and take care of the dog.

And he called and said that, he said "I'm on 192. I'm not going to make it home to take care of the dog. Would you be able to go home?" And I said, "Sure." He said, "Thanks. I love you." I said, "I love you too," and that was the last I heard from him.

VAN SUSTEREN: Was it a perfectly normal or routine call? I mean did he always say, "I love you," so you can't think of it as sort of like a goodbye I love you. I mean is this the way that you and Ray talk to each other on the phone?

FORNICOLA: We frequently talk to each other like that. We were, you know, always, you know, saying at the end of a conversation on the phone, you know, "I love you." It wasn't unusual.

VAN SUSTEREN: Was there anything unusual about his behavior the night before?

FORNICOLA: No. No. He seemed normal to me. There was nothing unusual.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is Route 192 in the direction of where his car was ultimately found between the home and the shopping mall, so 192 would be a truthful place of where he was?

FORNICOLA: Yes. To go to Lewisburg, you could either take Route 192 or Route 45, so that was a route to get to Lewisburg.

VAN SUSTEREN: Would it be unusual for him to take the day off and go for a drive?

FORNICOLA: No. No. He had done that in the past. It was not unusual.

VAN SUSTEREN: So you didn't think of saying in the phone call, "Ray, you know, why are you going or where are you going," anything like that?

FORNICOLA: No. Like all of us, he's entitled to take a day off and I know that he had been working a lot of hours on some cases that week and I thought, you know, good for you. You need to take some time off.

VAN SUSTEREN: Are there any clues that sit in your mind like anything about the cell phone is in the car, the laptop is missing, there are some ashes on the passenger side? He didn't smoke. You don't smoke or he doesn't smoke. Are there any sort of clues you're fixated on or you're thinking about?

FORNICOLA: No. The ashes are certainly unusual since we both don't smoke. I have no idea where the laptop is and as far as the cell phone, I don't really think that that's that unusual because sometimes when we would go away he wouldn't even take the cell phone.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is there anything missing from your home like another set of clothes or anything like that that might suggest that he might have just taken off for a while?

FORNICOLA: I can't find anything missing. Obviously, I don't know every piece of clothing that he has but everything seems to be at the house, all of his other clothing.

VAN SUSTEREN: Any threatening calls because he's the D.A. or anything like that that might think that maybe someone is trailing him or after him?

FORNICOLA: Not that I'm aware of. Obviously, we both live in the house and we both get phone calls. We're not always there together at the same time but none that I'm aware of.

VAN SUSTEREN: So, you have absolutely no theory tonight as to where Ray is?

FORNICOLA: No, none. I wish I did. You know I wish I knew where he was. As far as a theory I have none.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right and I should point out that there's a Web site -- www.raygricar.com -- that people should go to. Take a look at the picture. We're posting it in case anybody has any information whatsoever about Ray. Patty, thank you and good luck.

[J. J. in Phila]

First, here is the link:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156683,00.html

Second, please note that it edited by Fox, not GStickley.

Third, I'm not seeing anything different from RFG working a lot on case during the week and his working on cases at other times. It might tell us that the reason why he was working late in the office or not.

[Cloudbuster]

THANKS GSTICKLEY!!!

okay JJ what part of this is misunderstood?
FORNICOLA: No. Like all of us, he's entitled to take a day off and I know that he had been(((( working a lot of hours on some cases)))))--- (((((that week )))))and I thought, you know, good for you. You need to take some time off.
:read:

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
First, here is the link:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156683,00.html

Second, please note that it edited by Fox, not GStickley.

Third, I'm not seeing anything different from RFG working a lot on case during the week and his working on cases at other times. It might tell us that the reason why he was working late in the office or not. [/*]


I like J. J., but I think that I am about to be arrested for the Shaken Adult Syndrome. I am going to SNAP. J. J. I think that you are trying to keep the posters from mentioning P.F. It seems to have worked for UTR as he or she is no where to be seen. The more that you argue, the more that I am going to think that PF had something to do with this. :cuss:

No one can get anything accomplished with you disagreeing all the time.

You must have attended the school that all politicians do. Are you sure that you are not TC. Someone who doesn't listen to anyone.

READY TO SNAP

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella

The more that you argue, the more that I am going to think that PF had something to do with this. :cuss:

[/*]

Where is the logic to that statement? He can't argue in this case without him trying to cover for someone? Might the same be said for you then? :confused:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella



I like J. J., but I think that I am about to be arrested for the Shaken Adult Syndrome. I am going to SNAP. J. J. I think that you are trying to keep the posters from mentioning P.F. It seems to have worked for UTR as he or she is no where to be seen. The more that you argue, the more that I am going to think that PF had something to do with this. :cuss:

No one can get anything accomplished with you disagreeing all the time.

You must have attended the school that all politicians do. Are you sure that you are not TC. Someone who doesn't listen to anyone.

READY TO SNAP [/*]


Cind, first of all, I have no idea how RFG working protects or relates to PEF. I do not object to GStickley using this source and posted the link and tried to make it clear that GS was not the one that exited the comments.

Second, while PEF notes that RFG was working hard, neither she, nor anyone else, talks about an increase in his work load or in the time spent in the office.

Third, a number of sources note that RFG put in long hours as DA, and had since at least the early 90's.

PEF's claim was that RFG was working on cases.

Okay, let's assume PEF is telling the truth, for a second. How would she know? Because RFG told her. Is there any evidence to support that statement? Nothing that we have.

Let's assume PEF is telling a lie for a second. Is there any evidence that would contradict that statement? Nothing that we have.

Interestingly, if RFG was using his computer to work on cases, there would be a record and LE could check.

Frankly, I'm not seeing anything that says RFG worked harder the weel before he disappeared, but he normally did work hard.

I have no idea why you are upset.

[gstickley]

Be advised that gstickley did not edit (or exit) the previous quote, which was copied directly from the website & pasted on this thread, with nothing added or subtracted. Get your facts straight, or try reading & comprehending for a change.

***

Monday, May 16, 2005

E-MAIL STORY PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION
This is a partial transcript from "On the Record," May 13, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: A desperate search is underway for a missing Pennsylvania prosecutor. Ray Gricar (search) has not been heard from since he called his girlfriend on April 15 at about 11:30 a.m. Police have no idea what happened to him and have even turned to a psychic to help them solve this mystery.

Joining us from State College, Pennsylvania is Ray Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola, welcome Patty.

PATTY FORNICOLA, GIRLFRIEND OF MISSING D.A.: Hi, Greta.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
Be advised that gstickley did not edit (or exit) the previous quote, which was copied directly from the website & pasted on this thread, with nothing added or subtracted. Get your facts straight, or try reading & comprehending for a change.

***

Monday, May 16, 2005

E-MAIL STORY PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION
This is a partial transcript from "On the Record," May 13, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: A desperate search is underway for a missing Pennsylvania prosecutor. Ray Gricar (search) has not been heard from since he called his girlfriend on April 15 at about 11:30 a.m. Police have no idea what happened to him and have even turned to a psychic to help them solve this mystery.

Joining us from State College, Pennsylvania is Ray Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola, welcome Patty.

PATTY FORNICOLA, GIRLFRIEND OF MISSING D.A.: Hi, Greta. [/*]

GS, I wanted it to be clear that you were not the person editing the transcript; from the post, it wasn't. That is in no way a slam at you, but I wanted clear that you were posting the direct story.

The way it was worded, and minus the link, it could of looked like were trying to re-write history. You were not.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
<Snip>
I'd give anything to see the look on the person's face if Serendipitous tried to return that tightly rolled up twenty.[/*]I think TG was referring to the proclivity of druggies to use rolled bills as "snort straws", and that such a person might spazz if confronted with the evidence...as opposed to my appearance, which, no doubt, would disappoint many (including TG). MOO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I think TG was referring to the proclivity of druggies to use rolled bills as "snort straws", and that such a person might spazz if confronted with the evidence...as opposed to my appearance, which, no doubt, would disappoint many (including TG). MOO [/*]

I also thought TG might have been hinting that you wear a uniform....

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I think TG was referring to the proclivity of druggies to use rolled bills as "snort straws", and that such a person might spazz if confronted with the evidence...as opposed to my appearance, which, no doubt, would disappoint many (including TG). MOO [/*]



Your appearance would not change my mind about what kind of person that I think that you are. :shrug:

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I think TG was referring to the proclivity of druggies to use rolled bills as "snort straws", and that such a person might spazz if confronted with the evidence...as opposed to my appearance, which, no doubt, would disappoint many (including TG). MOO [/*]

Now wait a minute, didn't you say that you showed Tony the area of Lewisburg? You did say that you attended Lara's graduation. I would assume that Tony knows what you look like.
Care to explain??????? :D

[Cinderella]

Here is a song that I wanted to share with others tonight.

http://www.gospel-disco-network.co.uk/mary%20did%20you%20know.htm

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Here is a song that I wanted to share with others tonight.

http://www.gospel-disco-network.co.uk/mary%20did%20you%20know.htm [/*]

a lovely Xmas song

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cinderella

Now wait a minute, didn't you say that you showed Tony the area of Lewisburg? You did say that you attended Lara's graduation. I would assume that Tony knows what you look like.
Care to explain??????? :D [/*]Why do I suddenly feel like UtR...trying to keep the record straight? I was not at LG's graduation. But there were graduation photos available for viewing online, for a time. I never said I showed TG anything. We have never met. And (Politigal), TG has known who I am for more than two years, and that I wear no uniform.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Why do I suddenly feel like UtR...trying to keep the record straight? I was not at LG's graduation. But there were graduation photos available for viewing online, for a time. I never said I showed TG anything. We have never met. And (Politigal), TG has known who I am for more than two years, and that I wear no uniform. [/*]

Same with me, I have never met, or spoken on the phone, to TG or PB, though in both cases there has been Internet communication with both. I gave JKA my name and she could verify who I am, if she chose to.

Unless this is the real identity of some of the posters, I have had no communication with PEF, Sloane, TF, Walker, Marshall, CF, or any law enforcement agency in regard to this case. I have made it clear to TG that, if they should ask, he is free to give them that information.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Why do I suddenly feel like UtR...trying to keep the record straight? I was not at LG's graduation. But there were graduation photos available for viewing online, for a time. I never said I showed TG anything. We have never met. And (Politigal), TG has known who I am for more than two years, and that I wear no uniform. [/*]

S1 ok. So what is with the appearance issue now that you have me curious? Are you something like the beast? :eek:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cinderella

S1 ok. So what is with the appearance issue now that you have me curious? Are you something like the beast? :eek: [/*]Do men gasp, women shriek, children cry!? LOL. No, just my attempt to redirect...not misdirect.

[DonCorleone]

No

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by DonCorleone
No [/*]

Is that the way the Godfather and his crew work? Short and sweet? :)
Welcome DonCorleone!

[Cinderella]

Welcome DonCorleone :seeya: What do you think about this whole messed up case?

[day2day]

Welcome Don Corleone...:seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

Welcome, Don.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by DonCorleone
No [/*]

Is this your response to the POLL ?

[Laws]

Did anybody happen to watch last nights "48 Hours Mystery"?

It was about a wife who was found guilty of murder & arsen. She was the postcard of perfect accept she lied over 100 times to LE during the 3 interviews she had with them. She was having an affair that they came to find out by observing her 3 days before the husband was poisoned & burned up entering a local hotel with her boyfriend. She was observed on camera leaving her job 2 hours after arriving & then returning like 17 minutes coming back into the parking lot.

All of the above & more she lied about. She was observed by one detective at the scene of the fire as the fire department was working on the blaze that just set off his hinky meter about her, her behavior did not equate to what the detective felt he should be observing. People not as close to the family were far more visibly upset than the wife was, although according to her she cried in the police cruiser. This wife had conducted an affair with her now husband when he was sombody else's husband with 2 children. They were the picture perfect family, his Mom & Dad didn't suspect her. Everybody thought it was the fire that caused his death until the toxicology report came back & he had been found to contain the paralysis drug to a toxic level. Thankfully that detective was a REAL ONE & took appropriate action or a murderer would still be out there. Oh yeah, this was interesting too, that while she was awaiting trial she was out on house arrest but she was ignoring that & many calls had been made to the local police department by citizens of seeing her here & there in town, finally she got caught having a pedicure done, in her opinion according to her attorney she considered having that pedicure done as house arrest.

Oh yeah, all those lies she told were because she didn't want to be embarassed about having the affair or get fired for leaving her job without permission. Yeah right.

Anyway, all during the show I thought about Ray Gricar & how he was just so cheated by so many.

The jury came back within a day & 1/2 with a guilty with mercy verdict on both counts which equates to her receiving life in prison with a slim chance of parole at age 55. It was all based on circumstantial evidence, that yes was obtained by a REAL INVESTIGATION by REAL DETECTIVES.

[Laws]

Http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/48hours/main3410.shtml

The deceased husband's name Jimmy Michael.
The imprisoned wife's name Michelle Michael.

The above link contains the show's transcript & there is video of an interview with Michelle Michael, should this be of interest to you.

[Cinderella]

At least she is in or going to prison. Matthew Winklers wife has already served her time for shooting him in the back.

BTW, You mean that there are "REAL DETECTIVES"? BPD has one, but I don't know if they used him.

[Cinderella]

I just read the story. Several things caught my eye.

SNIP
-------------------------

The evidence may be circumstantial, but Ashdown says it is overwhelming. "Who had access to the murder weapon? Who had access to the victim's home? Who had access to the victim's body? Who had motive or something to gain from Jimmy Michael's death?" she asks,
--------------------------
SNIP

In a last ditch effort to plant doubt, the defense shocks the court by suggesting that perhaps no one is guilty - that perhaps this isn't even a murder. "So why is this guy found in bed?" Dyer asks. "Could it be suicide?"

Perhaps, Tom Dyer continues, Jimmy killed himself, making it look like a murder so his family would get the life insurance money. "He knows what rocuronium does. He's a respiratory therapist. He knows it's gonna give him a little bit of time to start a fire. It won't look like suicide," Dyer tells jurors. "This evidence alone is all the reasonable doubt you would ever need in a case like this."

Jimmy’s family is appalled. "That's the most unbelievable part that my son would ever commit suicide," Denny says.

------------------------------
SNIP

Laws, thanks for sharing this.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Laws
Http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/48hours/main3410.shtml

The deceased husband's name Jimmy Michael.
The imprisoned wife's name Michelle Michael.

The above link contains the show's transcript & there is video of an interview with Michelle Michael, should this be of interest to you. [/*]

There is a BIG difference here. There is no body to say it was murdered! He is still just missing.

[Politigal]

if there's a 50/50 probability that either patty or ray removed the laptop from the upstairs closet at her home, and since the laptop is the key element in this case, wouldn't that also mean there is a 50% probability that patty is involved in the disappearance?

[Serendipitous1]

I know we will probably never get an answer to this, but I would like to know how the laptop case presented itself. If it presented as if the laptop was still there, in the case, I would think the percentages would greatly favor Ray having removed it. MOO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I know we will probably never get an answer to this, but I would like to know how the laptop case presented itself. If it presented as if the laptop was still there, in the case, I would think the percentages would greatly favor Ray having removed it. MOO [/*]

i think - once again, we'd have only pf's word to rely upon

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

i think - once again, we'd have only pf's word to rely upon [/*]Yes, if she did go up alone and bring down the empty case. On the other hand, if she (for her own devious purpose)wanted to convey that sense to LE, she would have insisted that someone accompany her upstairs. MOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Yes, if she did go up alone and bring down the empty case. On the other hand, if she (for her own devious purpose)wanted to convey that sense to LE, she would have insisted that someone accompany her upstairs. MOO [/*]

And, after that, LE searched the house. Had she hidden it, it might have been found in the search. If she tried to remove it, LE was all over the place, outside of the house. She can't put in her purse.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

And, after that, LE searched the house. Had she hidden it, it might have been found in the search. If she tried to remove it, LE was all over the place, outside of the house. She can't put in her purse. [/*]MOO - I am not at all insensitive to any scenario. I stand ready to persecute whoever was responsible for Ray Gricar's disappearance. The circumstantial suspicion regarding PF has laid here since May '05. What I find totally unfathomable is the relentless insistence, lacking any factual basis, that PF must be somehow involved.

"Where are we? What the hell is going on?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrvqrUpK6GQ
Thanks Jenn Sholi.

[Cloudbuster]

I believe RG told PF what was going on when he called her problem is did he tell her what was really going on? I believe noway she is the k. Also I do believe he told her he took a half day off. I also don't think Honey was mentioned just MOO. I think more was going on than lets say what we would know.

JMOO

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I believe RG told PF what was going on when he called her problem is did he tell her what was really going on? I believe noway she is the k. Also I do believe he told her he took a half day off. I also don't think Honey was mentioned just MOO. I think more was going on than lets say what we would know.

JMOO [/*]

The was a scenario I considered earlier. The call was real and RFG asked PEF to meet him in Lewisburg after work, possibly for dinner. She did and something happened, but maybe not murder.

There would be two pieces of evidence for that.

1. The 11:12 call would be longer than 35 seconds. (I don't know the length.)

2. There would be at least a 2 hour 30 minute gap in Patty's time line between when she left work and the some other activity that is recorded or witnesses (the gym, the calls to RFG's cell phone).

I would bet that LE checked both.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
MOO - I am not at all insensitive to any scenario. I stand ready to persecute whoever was responsible for Ray Gricar's disappearance. The circumstantial suspicion regarding PF has laid here since May '05. What I find totally unfathomable is the relentless insistence, lacking any factual basis, that PF must be somehow involved.



It made perfect sense to ask about PEF in May 2005. By the time the car was checked finally, in the Summer of 2005, it became more of a fixation on the part of several posters.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal


i think - once again, we'd have only pf's word to rely upon [/*]It was sitting in the closet, as would any piece of something akin to luggage.

I'll say this, given the surprise that some have in not having the case accompany the laptop on whatever trip it may have taken: I live, read: LIVE, with my laptop. This recent trip is the first time one hasn't been with me anywhere I've gone overnight in 5 years (wasn't easy...). In approx 50 trips over that time, I've traveled with my laptop case exactly 1 time, and that was to State College. Every other time, it goes by itself in my Jeep, or in my carry-on. Just thought I'd add this for those who find it odd that the case might not have been used. Now my brother, he uses his all the time. So... we have 33 to 66% of laptop-using Gricar males who actually use their case.

Does this mean it weighs the case towards one scenario or another? Got me there...

[Politigal]

considering the level of laptop use at the office by pf and others, i'm really curious why this one was shelved like a piece of 'luggage' then....

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
considering the level of laptop use at the office by pf and others, i'm really curious why this one was shelved like a piece of 'luggage' then.... [/*]And also consider the fact that the laptop would soon have had to be returned to Centre County.

[Cloudbuster]

Im still undecided that the hard drive was RG's. Those words echo in my mind that I heard "I stole one I pulled over and i tossed it".

Also later it is said "tossed it from the SOUTH SIDE." To me you have 2 separate incidents with that laptop. one where he pulled over and tossed it--then later something got tossed from the southside and I think thats where someone actually did toss it from after they picked it up, from RG's first toss.

To me RG pulled over and tosses the laptop maybe even with a different hard drive in it. Im sure Court house has bad ones stored somewhere. Unless RG stole PF's lol. Has anyone checked her's just curious?
The K is not far behind and seen RG and stops to grab the laptop. Most likely k was tailing and maybe RG was speeding away from the K to toss it.
Later that day or months later it gets tossed by the k from the South side and I think that means the bridge.

Just a thought.

[Cloudbuster]

BTW I have never been to Lewisburg so please tell me if it's impossible to toss it from the south side of that bridge?

Im only saying what i understand audibly. I guess it's not really important for me to understand but Im curious about the southside meaning?

[Politigal]

cb - here's tg's photos again --

http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/sitephotos.htm


the south side of the bridge is where the harddrive was found -- it is upstream from where the laptop was found [on the north side of the bridge]

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
cb - here's tg's photos again --
http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/sitephotos.htm

the south side of the bridge is where the harddrive was found -- it is upstream from where the laptop was found [on the north side of the bridge] [/*]Corrections (MOO): north of the bridge is where the hard drive was found -- it is upstream from where the laptop was found [under the bridge]

http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/bridgefrompark.jpg
"Above shows the location of the recovered laptop. View is North side, West to East from the Lewisburg side. This is downstream from hard drive location."

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Corrections (MOO): north of the bridge is where the hard drive was found -- it is upstream from where the laptop was found [under the bridge]

http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/bridgefrompark.jpg
"Above shows the location of the recovered laptop. View is North side, West to East from the Lewisburg side. This is downstream from hard drive location." [/*]

you are correct...i tried to edit and it was too late...then got sidetracked balancing my chbook...:)

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
<Snip>
BTW I have never been to Lewisburg so please tell me if it's impossible to toss it from the south side of that bridge? [/*]MOO: Not impossible. But in order for the laptop to wind up under the bridge, tossed from the south (downstream) side (where the pedestrian walkway is), one would apparently have to heave it across one or both lanes of traffic...which does not seem likely.

[Cloudbuster]

S1 and Pgal thanks but i swear im dense lol. Even looking at the photo Im dense. Something was tossed from the southside. Can you get on the walk way and accomplish this? If he don't mean what Im thinking then perhaps he means something about direction like heading in a direction and tossing it from the south side. Like maybe Rg was going a direction then tosses the laptop from the southside? Im stumped on what this means and I know it's important. My sense of direction is even denser. I really wish that whatever Im dealing with would have happened to someone that is more privy to this all. Now I understand what a flat lander is lol. Maybe on the other hand it is good to not be privy cause then those that are might reconize something Im saying to fit something unknown in meaning to me?:shrug:

[Politigal]

how weird...not many posts today....

oh well, here's a song that made me think of rg...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tQ0QUpEnKw0

TIME CAST A SPELL ON YOU, THAT YOU WON'T FORGET ME...

[Cinderella]

Funny that you say no one is posting. And your song, Time cast a spell on you, that you won't forget me.

I have been trying to stay under the covers today. It is something how an event can get the best of you. Today is the twenty-first anniversary of the sudden death of my husband and soul mate. Whether I am aware of the date appraoching or not, it always gets to me and my children. Two of my children have just called me to see how I did today. It is like the dreaded day. I am sure that others know what I am talking about. I said to my daughter that in the future we need something good to happen on Jan. 13. The song is for me as time has cast a spell on me that I can't forget about my husband. Thanks Pgal without you being aware for bringing it to light that I could express it.

BTW, also thinging of others that have not been posting. Especially wondering about UTR. Does anyone know if she is ok?

BTW, the event of the death of my husband has forever altered my life. I have never been the same person that I was before. I know that it shows. That is probably one of the symptoms of TG not want to meet me or me to meet his family on the street. Although I am harmless.

[Cinderella]

Thank God, today is now the 14th.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Thank God, today is now the 14th. [/*]

that's the spirit....;)

i'll be glad when a few more days pass and my mouth heals from my fall. all i've been able to eat is soup or jello. yuck!

i want chips and salsa

[Cinderella]

I forgot about your fall. Isn't if funny that when we are young we can fall all the time and nothing happen, but when we get older, it causes problems. I really hope that you get well fast. How about eating some ice cream? I hope that you can soon eat salsa and chips. :lol:

[Cloudbuster]

Evening Pgal and Cind. Good spirit I agree. I hope you heal quickly Pgal! I got to get up early so I think im turning in soon.
Sure is silent on here? I know JJ told us he would be gone for a while has clients I think that's what he said. Maybe UTR still can't get on? :rose:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Evening Pgal and Cind. Good spirit I agree. I hope you heal quickly Pgal! I got to get up early so I think im turning in soon.
Sure is silent on here? I know JJ told us he would be gone for a while has clients I think that's what he said. Maybe UTR still can't get on? :rose: [/*]

CB, call me in the morning. Doesn't matter what time, my hubby gets up at 6am.

Pgal and Cindi I pray you are both better soon.

Good night all.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
<Snip>
i'll be glad when a few more days pass and my mouth heals from my fall. all i've been able to eat is soup or jello. yuck! [/*]:eek: . . . .Gives a whole new meaning to smash-mouth! LOL...but you do not have to smile if it hurts. Just continue with liberal amounts of Jack Daniels (you can replace it with water later) :D

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
. . . .Gives a whole new meaning to smash-mouth! LOL...but you do not have to smile if it hurts. Just continue with liberal amounts of Jack Daniels (you can replace it with water later) :D [/*]

You sound like my Dad....

My mom had been super sick with the flu & nothing was helping, so I went over and made her a hot toddy (she has never drank a drop in her life.) Anyway, she totally loved it and wanted me to come back the following day and make her another. While I was there, my Dad was pretending to cough, and requested I make him one also - only leave out the honey, lemon, cinnamon, etc.....

:biggrin:

On another note, I keep thinking about motive in this case, and I keep thinking about Patty possibly being involved.

I know that in a lot of spousal homicides, adultery is high on the list of motives. However, if RG was the adulterer, IMO, the other woman would have come forward, or Patty would have told law enforcement about learning of it. And IMO, if Patty was the adulterer, I can't see it being an earth shattering affair *unless* it involved someone at the DA's office. And, it stands to reason that someone at the DA's would know about the law, law enforcement procedures, evidence, etc. And again, if it was someone in the DA's office, it would have probably been a dire situation with that person's career at stake (as well as Patty's,) if RG learned of the adultery. And it would have especially been a sticky situation if that person was married....

It was reported early on that Patty asked to be polygraph because people in the community were whispering about her....

Did they have a reason to suspect her?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal

On another note, I keep thinking about motive in this case, and I keep thinking about Patty possibly being involved.

I know that in a lot of spousal homicides, adultery is high on the list of motives. However, if RG was the adulterer, IMO, the other woman would have come forward, or Patty would have told law enforcement about learning of it. And IMO, if Patty was the adulterer, I can't see it being an earth shattering affair *unless* it involved someone at the DA's office. And, it stands to reason that someone at the DA's would know about the law, law enforcement procedures, evidence, etc. And again, if it was someone in the DA's office, it would have probably been a dire situation with that person's career at stake (as well as Patty's,) if RG learned of the adultery. And it would have especially been a sticky situation if that person was married....

It was reported early on that Patty asked to be polygraph because people in the community were whispering about her....

Did they have a reason to suspect her? [/*]

The question would be if they suspected of murder or helping him walk away.

I've indicated this myself; in the first few months of the case, I wanted to know where PEF was. The last phone call was to her.

As to adultery, you are forgetting that all she has to do is say to RFG, **Get out.**

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


snipped.

As to adultery, you are forgetting that all she has to do is say to RFG, **Get out.** [/*]

You missed the point....

about the careers at stake, etc....and especially if it involved someone else in the DA's office.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


You missed the point....

about the careers at stake, etc....and especially if it involved someone else in the DA's office. [/*]

No, because it wouldn't be grounds for termination. Plus, you are in a situation wher RFG isnt going to be around in 7 and a half months.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, because it wouldn't be grounds for termination. Plus, you are in a situation wher RFG isnt going to be around in 7 and a half months. [/*]

Do you honestly think there wouldn't have been some major personnel "changes" if something like that became known?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal


You missed the point....

about the careers at stake, etc....and especially if it involved someone else in the DA's office. [/*]

You don't know Bellefonte very well then. Something like that would have been out before he disappeared, whether the acting parties wanted it out or not.

After what she suffered by her ex doing that to her with someone in the CCCH, I don't think it would be done by her. I also saw the love in her face for RG the day I talked with her and no, it was not faked or put on or acted out!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Do you honestly think there wouldn't have been some major personnel "changes" if something like that became known? [/*]

In an office full of litigating lawyers, I honestly think that it wouldn't make a difference.

I hate to tell you this, but making decisions on employment based on who is sleeping with whom would be the kind of thing RFG would be sued over. He had 7 1/2 months left, why would he put himself through that kind of Hell?

[Politigal]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


You don't know Bellefonte very well then. Something like that would have been out before he disappeared, whether the acting parties wanted it out or not.

After what she suffered by her ex doing that to her with someone in the CCCH, I don't think it would be done by her. I also saw the love in her face for RG the day I talked with her and no, it was not faked or put on or acted out! [/*]

We don't really know if her ex did anything like that to her....

It could have been the other way around.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal


We don't really know if her ex did anything like that to her....

It could have been the other way around. [/*]

You can believe what you want. Your option.
I am hearing it from others in the courthouse and others in/out of the courthouse. Not PF.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


We don't really know if her ex did anything like that to her....

It could have been the other way around. [/*]

Considering that PEF could have looked at RFG and said, **Get out,** it isn't an issue.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ what if there a issue and RG planned to return that day to his car with his keys and tell PF exactly what was up? Except he NEVER got the opportunity?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ what if there a issue and RG planned to return that day to his car with his keys and tell PF exactly what was up? Except he NEVER got the opportunity? [/*]

I don't follow you on this.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I don't follow you on this. [/*]
I understand that you can't follow me on that but perhaps in time you will see better.:cool:

[Cloudbuster]

A SECRET is:
1. Kept hidden from knowledge or view; concealed.
2. Dependably discreet.
3. Operating in a hidden or confidential manner: a secret agent.
4. Not expressed; inward: their secret thoughts.
5. Not frequented; secluded: wandered about the secret byways of Paris.
6. Known or shared only by the initiated: secret rites.
7. Beyond ordinary understanding; mysterious.
8. Containing information, the unauthorized disclosure of which poses a grave threat to national security.
n.
1. Something kept hidden from others or known only to oneself or to a few.
2. Something that remains beyond understanding or explanation; a mystery.
3. A method or formula on which success is based: The secret of this dish is in the sauce.
4. Secret A variable prayer said after the Offertory and before the Preface in the Mass.

Ask LE i think they got the SECRET lol.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

I understand that you can't follow me on that but perhaps in time you will see better.:cool: [/*]

Why wouldn't he have told PEF before and why would it cause him to be murdered?

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Why wouldn't he have told PEF before and why would it cause him to be murdered? [/*]

He couldn't tell her before because he was involved in something thats a secret IMO. He did intend to tell her after lets say what he had to do was over. He never got to tell her thats obvious because he is not to be found. If Im wrong prove me wrong where is he? It's really hard to explain it cause i don't exactly know what the secret is or what he was involved in and Im meaning something regarding his work but not something I don't see RG doing but seems like he was frustratedly mustered into something he didn't want to help with. He was lied too. Im throwing my glasses back over the eyes.:cool:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


He couldn't tell her before because he was involved in something thats a secret IMO. He did intend to tell her after lets say what he had to do was over. He never got to tell her thats obvious because he is not to be found. If Im wrong prove me wrong where is he? It's really hard to explain it cause i don't exactly know what the secret is or what he was involved in and Im meaning something regarding his work but not something I don't see RG doing but seems like he was frustratedly mustered into something he didn't want to help with. He was lied too. Im throwing my glasses back over the eyes.:cool: [/*]

1. RFG was murdered. Prove me wrong.

2. Ray Gricar walked away. Prove me wrone.

3. Ray Gricar committed suicide. Prove me wron.

:cool:

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


1. RFG was murdered. Prove me wrong.

2. Ray Gricar walked away. Prove me wrone.

3. Ray Gricar committed suicide. Prove me wron.

:cool: [/*]

JJ I intend to diss that you are wro.:lol:

[Cloudbuster]

I was thinking today about what the words "insurance deal meant when brought unconventially and now Im pondering on Ray's retirement in connection to his disappearance and a possible insurance deal?

Where I worked we was union and had a retirement plan thats basically similiar to where RG worked. In our plan we had to be 65 or 67 to retire with full benefits including a good rate at our health insurance. perhaps Ray only needed to be 62 at which he wasn't. The need for health insurance and possibly death insurance surely would be something he was checking into at 8 months away from retirement right? Is it possible there was a problem or a need to do his insurance discreetly from someone on the outside of Centre county district? What Im asking was does anyone know if Ray was discret about things like this when it came to PF? Could Ray have felt the need to hide his insurance dealings at this point close to 8 months away from really it becoming more of a priority? Was any preasure put on him if he decided to make let's say LG the full benefactor? Is it possible RG spoke to LG about this the day before he disappears? Im trying to figure out why RG wanted to meet and why that area? Oddly TOL seems someone at IPark sells Insurance also not to mention that first name is on the list I put up.
Just trying to make sense.

[J. J. in Phila]

If Centre County is even close to the state, you could retire after 20 years (and over age 55) with full benefits, including an excellent health package.

[Cloudbuster]

But JJ how do we know RG had this wonderful deal? How do we know he wasn't embarking on more insurance to the pie? More is better than less lol. Given that Ray was frugal and didn't seem much into investing I would venture to think insurance 8 months away from retirement was constitunionally important to him. Think about becoming closer to age 60 and those years seem to find importance for ones self. Was it a private matter for him? Did PF somehow find out? Did Lara know? Did Ray need to travel out of the area to do his insurance business? Did he feel the need too? Was preasure on him to retire early? Somewhere in all that jibble gotta be a answer to the insurance deal. :)

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
But JJ how do we know RG had this wonderful deal? How do we know he wasn't embarking on more insurance to the pie? More is better than less lol. Given that Ray was frugal and didn't seem much into investing I would venture to think insurance 8 months away from retirement was constitunionally important to him. Think about becoming closer to age 60 and those years seem to find importance for ones self. Was it a private matter for him? Did PF somehow find out? Did Lara know? Did Ray need to travel out of the area to do his insurance business? Did he feel the need too? Was preasure on him to retire early? Somewhere in all that jibble gotta be a answer to the insurance deal. :) [/*]

The article I had read where he was announcing his retirement, with his photo, in his office, he did not look like he was being pressured into it. He looked happy. TG even stated he was looking forward to retirement and he and PF were talking about it with him.

Being almost 60 I have looked into "more" insurance but to cover my funeral and any debts I might have left when I die. At this age though it cost more than if you did it in your 30's and 40's, so don't wait until my age to do it. I felt insurance poor at that time (home, cars, life and health, plus medications) took a big chunk of the budget. Funny how I laughed at my parents about them being that way.

I don't think RG had that problem. His daughter was out for some years, no home to insure or car, all in PF's name. But life or health insurance might be another thing. I understand they even have insurance for particular illnesses now - like cancer. He didn't have that problem either. But county jobs are supposed to have great benefits, that is why it is hard to get them, no one wants to leave them.
JMO

[Cloudbuster]

LW none of that is what Im saying. I have tried to figure out why RG or whatever had a insurance deal matter going on at the same time something else was going on thats all. I was thinking that it is possible he might need health insurance since he was going to be retiring early as compared to age 62 ect. It was JJ that kinda blew that theory up. I never said anyone was chasing him over a insurance deal thats something totally different. I don't know what they wanted from him when that occurred but given the disappearing laptop Im just assuming that part had something to do with the laptop not the insurance deal. The insurance is mentioned a few times and Im trying to figure out why it is. The chase seemed totally different. Sorry if I worded something the wrong way but thats not what I meant. As for JJ I was only adding other things of what types of possible insurances. Orginally I said health insurance cause usually if your not retirement age you will need it after you retire. Mine didn't keep me Im now paying for it.

[Cinderella]

Cloudbuster, I have to say that I was confused also on what you are talking about. Can you explain it. What does the pie mean?
I am interested in knowing. I think that it just came out the wrong way.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks

a) There is no body for someone else to collect insurance on.
*) A beneficiary would be named on any policy, easy to track down.
c) Are you saying RG committed insurance fraud, so someone else could reap in the benefits years later? Why would a man who fought for decades for all that was good, and right and just, lose his morals all of a sudden, and commit a criminal act?
Just curious as to what I am missing here in your scenario......
JMO [/*]

A. Is correct. Unless the body turns up, anyone will have to wait seven years, at least.
*. Unless the beneficiary is the murderer, it's not going to do the murderer any good (I think LG is the beneficiary, and we know she was about 2,700 miles away.).
C. Why would he. There are easier and legal ways of transferring money.

I'll be off line much of tomorrow.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by logicworks


I guess I got lost on this statement, since it didn't seem to relate to health insurance.

"How do we know he wasn't embarking on more insurance to the pie? More is better than less lol." [/*]

That's just me getting upset when for everlessly JJ rips mine and all theories to threads at which I wonder if that's why UTR left? I orginally was only looking at health insurance for RG. That got slammed by JJ so I was sorta challenged to explained more pies of insurance lol. It really just is easy to misdialog. JJ I still think its possible RG could have done his insurance privacy elsewhere including even Lewisburg. One thing is you do have to put a (((benefactor))) even on a((( health Insurance policy))) so Im looking at would someone get upset if they happened to find out that it wasn't their name? Not a motive for murder cause I believe thats not possible but what I do wonder is did it contribute to anything that day in question? Worse yet why is 2 ladies names being brought up by a ghost if everything is just so perfect? I DON"T believe they did anything but I DO believe they know something more even if it's minor to them. Hard to explain though.
moo-moo

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


That's just me getting upset when for everlessly JJ rips mine and all theories to threads at which I wonder if that's why UTR left? I orginally was only looking at health insurance for RG. That got slammed by JJ so I was sorta challenged to explained more pies of insurance lol. It really just is easy to misdialog. JJ I still think its possible RG could have done his insurance privacy elsewhere including even Lewisburg. One thing is you do have to put a (((benefactor))) even on a((( health Insurance policy))) so Im looking at would someone get upset if they happened to find out that it wasn't their name? [/*]

UTR indicated she had computer problems.

You don't have a beneficiary on a health insurance policy. Life insurance, yes, but not health insurance.

As I've said, if his program was anything like mine, that wouldn't be an issue. Even if he did (which would cost him more) it would not be a motive for murder because no other person would benefit from it.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


UTR indicated she had computer problems.

You don't have a beneficiary on a health insurance policy. Life insurance, yes, but not health insurance.

As I've said, if his program was anything like mine, that wouldn't be an issue. Even if he did (which would cost him more) it would not be a motive for murder because no other person would benefit from it. [/*]

You know what JJ I will give you what I have and you figure it out just tell me where to send it privatly. It too frustrating especially when Im in the dark doing this. Best thing I said all night roflmao!!!:seeya:

[Politigal]

I still vote NO on this poll.

[J. J. in Phila]

I still vote YES.

[Cinderella]

I vote that PF knows some things and is hiding information that is hindering this case.

[sherrijean981]

I vote yes. TG said she was interviewed in that polygraph for hours and has been probably been questioned by local LE many times. I don't think she knows any more about where RG is than the rest of us do. I hope she is still keeping positive that he might still be alive, even if not with her. Anything is possible and with God everything is possible!

[J. J. in Phila]

I think she has told everything she knows. I don't think that she is telling everything that she thinks. There is a difference.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think she has told everything she knows. I don't think that she is telling everything that she thinks. There is a difference. [/*]

That's true. But then again a lot of us are not saying what we think. It would be impolite to do so.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
But then again a lot of us are not saying what we think. It would be impolite to do so. [/*]Imagine this... I'll disagree on this one. lol

Well thought out theories are always encouraged, at least by me. It's the personal, myopia that becomes a bit much. You think somebody did, or didnt do it, lay it out. "Gut feelings" don't have much weight with me, however. Logical constructs carry more weight.

Or contact me "offline". A few here can attest to the fact that I will listen to anything logically presented, and debated. I spend much more time discussing things with people from this board in this manner than I do "on-board".

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Imagine this... I'll disagree on this one. lol

Well thought out theories are always encouraged, at least by me. It's the personal, myopia that becomes a bit much. You think somebody did, or didnt do it, lay it out. "Gut feelings" don't have much weight with me, however. Logical constructs carry more weight.

Or contact me "offline". A few here can attest to the fact that I will listen to anything logically presented, and debated. I spend much more time discussing things with people from this board in this manner than I do "on-board". [/*]

I should have said I am not saying what I think. I don't have proof of anything. I have a fear of what I don't know. And you don't want gut or fear feelings. I will keep looking though, like I have been.

Have to go check my dictionary out now. :read:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Imagine this... I'll disagree on this one. lol

Well thought out theories are always encouraged, at least by me. It's the personal, myopia that becomes a bit much. You think somebody did, or didnt do it, lay it out. "Gut feelings" don't have much weight with me, however. Logical constructs carry more weight.

Or contact me "offline". A few here can attest to the fact that I will listen to anything logically presented, and debated. I spend much more time discussing things with people from this board in this manner than I do "on-board". [/*]

OK, I think that the thought your uncle walked away crossed PEF's mind after the Mini was found.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Imagine this... I'll disagree on this one. lol

Well thought out theories are always encouraged, at least by me. It's the personal, myopia that becomes a bit much. You think somebody did, or didnt do it, lay it out. "Gut feelings" don't have much weight with me, however. Logical constructs carry more weight.

Or contact me "offline". A few here can attest to the fact that I will listen to anything logically presented, and debated. I spend much more time discussing things with people from this board in this manner than I do "on-board". [/*]


Right now I don't trust anyone in the courthouse or the sheriff's office. Where was everyone on the day that Ray disappeared?
Why didn't co-workers and Judges speak up for him. I would imagine that a better investigation would have taken place.
It seemed like Ray didn't want to be around the courthouse the last two days. And why would PF disbelieve that it might have been Ray in a different car. Did she know where he was. Her stories have really changed. I really truly believe that she knows more than she is telling.

[Cinderella]

I am just amazed that if PF's soul mate is gone that she hasn't been saying anything. Wonder if she is talking to Pete. It has been a while since Ray disappeared so I would think that a lot of her mourning so to speak would be over and she would being trying to find out what happened to Ray.

Yet she is silent..................wonder why. Is she involved, does she think that Ray did the same thing to her that her first husband did? A soulmate would search forever until they found their soulmate.

Just like the morning supposedly Ray left. She has varying stories. She comes off cold when she talks on camera about Ray. Is she a scorned woman and knows it.

The story that she said about just wanting a job in the DA's office, I don't buy. I wonder if she suspected that Ray was having a tryst with someone else and she switched positions to keep an eye on him.

Patty knows more that she is saying.

BTW, I wonder if they interviewed her last husband about her personality. I also wonder if she was jealous of Lara. It is like Lara came first in Ray's world.

[tonyGricar]

Happy Friday, everyone...

[Cinderella]

The same to you Tony, I am glad that someone is searching for Ray. My hats off to you, Pete and Detective Rickard. Keep up the good work.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar Happy Friday, everyone... Go figure (ROFLMAO)! I noted that too, as I was looking up 'non sequitur'...heck of a way to go into a 'holiday weekend'. MOO

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think she has told everything she knows. I don't think that she is telling everything that she thinks. There is a difference. [/*]

Why are you so trusting of Patty's words?

Why are you such a fan of hers? Are you related to Zaccagni?

:shrug:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Politigal


Why are you so trusting of Patty's words?

Why are you such a fan of hers? Are you related to Zaccagni?

:shrug: [/*]

I think there are a lot more people out here that haven't passed a judgement on her than you think.

Why have you been so quick to do so?

I also haven't seen where JJ has made a judgement on anyone, he is just looking at everything, from every angle.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Why are you so trusting of Patty's words?

Why are you such a fan of hers? Are you related to Zaccagni?

:shrug: [/*]

Not a fan, but we do know that RFG did discuss walkaway cases. My guess is that he did in front of PEF. She made an emotional utterance that was certainly out of character with the rest of the news conference.

Now, why would she say, effectively, **call me?** The answer is that, in her mind, at that point, he is out there, not dead, not kidnapped, not having amnesia. What would make think that? Wishful thinking, perhaps, but the other possibility is that he said something that would make her think he might be out there.

We know that RFG discuss the Wiley case in with Sloane, years after Wiley walked away. He may have discussed walk away with other people or in front of other people, including PEF.

Now, let me be clear, showing an interest in walking away doesn't mean that he did walkaway, but it shows an interest in people walking away.

[psu#107]

PF's Ex-husband was never interviewed.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by psu#107
PF's Ex-husband was never interviewed. [/*]

Do you feel there was reason to interview him? Or that he knows something about the case?

[J. J. in Phila]

I think one of many aspects overlooked when looking at a motive for murder would be someone wanting to get RFG out of the way so that they would have a clearer path to PEF. Likewise someone who wanted to hurt PEF might want to take away RFG.

There are probably a half dozen motives for murder that could be out there. Some are:

1. To kill RFG to prevent him from prosecuting a case.

2. To kill RFG because he sent him or a relative/SO to jail.

3. To kill RFG because he didn't send someone to jail.

4. To Kill RFG to "get back" at PEF.

5. To kill RFG to get closer to PEF.

6. To kill RFG for revenge for some personal action.

7. To kill RFG because he was a symbol of the criminal justice system (or a high profile person of Slovenian ancestry).

It could be any, or none, of these things, and I'd guess a lot more. About the only thing that it probably isn't is money.

[Cinderella]

J. J.,

You forgot a couple:

To kill Ray because he decided that he didn't want to spend the rest of his life with PF.

To kill Ray because he was having an affair.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J.,

You forgot a couple:

To kill Ray because he decided that he didn't want to spend the rest of his life with PF.

To kill Ray because he was having an affair. [/*]

Those are both covered under the broad:

"6. To kill RFG for revenge for some personal action."

And if RFG was having an affair, it wouldn't necessarily be PEF doing the killing.

[Cinderella]

Not necessarily PF doing the killing but as probable as anyone else. BTW, when she spoke about what her ex-husband did to her, if looks could kill.......................

Just put it this way, if I were Ray and not planning on spending the rest of my life with her, I would run. Maybe that is why they were in the park. Maybe he wanted to only be out in the open with her where people could see and no harm come to him.

PF's comment about Wedler, baffled me. Yes, I know that Ray and maybe Wedler weren't the best of friends, but I would be thrilled to be with my soul mate and some made a nice comment. Unless PF thought that Wedler was needling her and knew elsewise then I would get angry. Ray did kind of smile.

I wonder how many times, Ray and PF took a walk in the park.

[Cinderella]

Also the topic to this thread is "Do You Feel That PF Was Fully Investigated?

My answer would be no, as she was too busy telling others how to conduct matters and who she believed and didn't believe.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella

PF's comment about Wedler, baffled me. Yes, I know that Ray and maybe Wedler weren't the best of friends, but I would be thrilled to be with my soul mate and some made a nice comment. Unless PF thought that Wedler was needling her and knew elsewise then I would get angry. Ray did kind of smile.



PEF might have interpreted as being sarcastic; it might not have been intended to be.

I made a comment, an honest one, not in the least intended to be anything other than an accurate answer to her question. She took it as being a "smart ***" answer; it wasn't and I sent her a PM explaining that.

[Cinderella]

Do you know if Wedler stated what Ray was wearing that day?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Do you know if Wedler stated what Ray was wearing that day? [/*]

No, and I'm not sure she paid any attention to it. RFG was videotaped later, however.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, and I'm not sure she paid any attention to it. RFG was videotaped later, however. [/*]

Do you know if the video tape shows what he is wearing?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella


Do you know if the video tape shows what he is wearing? [/*]

Yes, jeans and the fleece. It's been reported.

[Chump#7]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think one of many aspects overlooked when looking at a motive for murder would be someone wanting to get RFG out of the way so that they would have a clearer path to PEF. <snip>

Interesting. I actually had that same thought the other night. I figured you guys had probably covered it. That theory is certainly worth pursuing... PEF may not have even been aware of the admirer.

Of course you do realize, J.J., that this theory makes you #1 suspect. ;)

JUST KIDDING!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Chump#7


Interesting. I actually had that same thought the other night. I figured you guys had probably covered it. That theory is certainly worth pursuing... PEF may not have even been aware of the admirer.

Of course you do realize, J.J., that this theory makes you #1 suspect. ;)

JUST KIDDING!!! [/*]

1. I have a very nice alibi.

2. Who said I'm an admirer? It has actually been pointed out that one of my first questions in this case were about PEF's whereabouts. The only difference is, they have pretty much been answered.

I've also indicated that I am somewhat apathetic about meeting her.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


1. I have a very nice alibi.

2. Who said I'm an admirer? It has actually been pointed out that one of my first questions in this case were about PEF's whereabouts. The only difference is, they have pretty much been answered.

I've also indicated that I am somewhat apathetic about meeting her. [/*]


I think that Chump may be onto something. LOL
J. J. seems like he knows more about PF than he does about Ray.
If J. J. doesn't admire her than something is wrong somewhere. :shrug:
I guess that it could be that J. J. just represents PF. You know all these stars have people that write wonderful things about them. A little bit of good publicity doesn't hurt. Especially in PF's case being it is her story and timeline.

I wonder what amount of alibi's are truthful. All you have to do is ask someone to lie for you.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella



I think that Chump may be onto something. LOL
J. J. seems like he knows more about PF than he does about Ray.
If J. J. doesn't admire her than something is wrong somewhere. :shrug:
I guess that it could be that J. J. just represents PF. You know all these stars have people that write wonderful things about them. A little bit of good publicity doesn't hurt. Especially in PF's case being it is her story and timeline.

I wonder what amount of alibi's are truthful. All you have to do is ask someone to lie for you. [/*]

Well, here is something:

I'm a former central PA resident and went to Penn State. Your coverage has been excellent. Two questions: 1. Other than Ms. Fornicola, who was the last person known to have seen Mr. Gricar (before the disappearance)? 2. Have you ever produced a timeline of these events.
J. J., Phila, PA 11/17/05

BTW, my alibi is time stamped. Sorry. Ah, what about yours?

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Well, here is something:

I'm a former central PA resident and went to Penn State. Your coverage has been excellent. Two questions: 1. Other than Ms. Fornicola, who was the last person known to have seen Mr. Gricar (before the disappearance)? 2. Have you ever produced a timeline of these events.
J. J., Phila, PA 11/17/05

BTW, my alibi is time stamped. Sorry. Ah, what about yours? [/*]

Anyone can time stamp anything for anyone. Actually I can't remember back since it was so long ago. I think that it was just my dog that day. My dog has since died. I could get someone to say that I was with them though. That would not be hard. Now if I had to swear on a Bible then I couldn't do that. They have taken the Bible out of the courtroom so whatever you want to say. There are truthful people, but who is going to harm Ray and admit to it without repercussions?

Someday we will know all the truth. It will all be revealed. I can't wait to see someones face when their lie is exposed. :)

[Chump#7]

Just Kidding, Kids. Just. Kidding.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella


Anyone can time stamp anything for anyone. Actually I can't remember back since it was so long ago. I think that it was just my dog that day. My dog has since died. I could get someone to say that I was with them though. That would not be hard. Now if I had to swear on a Bible then I couldn't do that. They have taken the Bible out of the courtroom so whatever you want to say. There are truthful people, but who is going to harm Ray and admit to it without repercussions?

Someday we will know all the truth. It will all be revealed. I can't wait to see someones face when their lie is exposed. :) [/*]

Cind, you've had access to some of mine, remember? :)

Suffice it to say, I do post on other subjects as you well know. :)

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Well, here is something:

I'm a former central PA resident and went to Penn State. Your coverage has been excellent. Two questions: 1. Other than Ms. Fornicola, who was the last person known to have seen Mr. Gricar (before the disappearance)? 2. Have you ever produced a timeline of these events.
J. J., Phila, PA 11/17/05

BTW, my alibi is time stamped. Sorry. Ah, what about yours? [/*]

you were in jail? hammer sorry couldn't resist ;)

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


you were in jail? hammer sorry couldn't resist ;) [/*]

No, merely posting. My post could here is actually quite low.

Of course, if this was a walkaway, we don't need alibis. The only people that would are those in the "inner circle."

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Cind, you've had access to some of mine, remember? :)

Suffice it to say, I do post on other subjects as you well know. :) [/*]


That does not mean that it was you though.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, merely posting. My post could here is actually quite low.

Of course, if this was a walkaway, we don't need alibis. The only people that would are those in the "inner circle." [/*]

Just exactly who are in the "inner circle"? Quit being cryptic and spit it out. barf

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella


Just exactly who are in the "inner circle"? Quit being cryptic and spit it out.

I already did:

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Focusing on these two possibilities, who would this "friend" be? Someone in a group I've nicknamed the "Inner Circle." People close to RFG both personally and geographically. Who would in that Inner Circle. Close friends or long term associates, people who care about RFG and would be willing to help him disappear. People he'd trust to keep a secret and who would be loyal to his wishes. They are:

1. Very close friends, PEF, Sloane, and Walker.

2. Staff, especially long term staff. That would include SM, JKA, LM, but would not be limited to them.

3. Less closer friends, ex SO's, people that he's had close relationships with and trusts. Examples are the nurse, the friend JKA mentioned, and his ex SO's.

Out of that group, the only one checked , that we know of, is PEF.

The family is in a slightly outer circle, because they are not close geographically.

[Cinderella]

I would say that family members are in the inner circle. How long does it actually take to get to Bellefonte? Not very long at all.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I would say that family members are in the inner circle. How long does it actually take to get to Bellefonte? Not very long at all. [/*]

It's 6+ hours one way, with Lewisburg an hour after that. Also communication would usually leave a record. It's a lot easier to do this in person or across town.

The "Inner Circle" has to be close personally and geographically.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


The news specifically stated that the nurse and the government gal who matched the mystery woman description were checked, so why are you stating that , out of that group, PF was the ONLY one checked out? [/*]

Never to the extent that PEF was, no polygraph, no intense questioning, no looking at electronic records.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


It's 6+ hours one way, with Lewisburg an hour after that. Also communication would usually leave a record. It's a lot easier to do this in person or across town.

The "Inner Circle" has to be close personally and geographically. [/*]


I would say that family is inner circle unless they live in a different country and haven't been in touch with Ray. Where did you get your "Inner Circle" information?

BTW, What do polygraphs mean, nothing. People can still lie and pass them. That is why they aren't used in court. It might make someone look good, but they are not 100% reliable.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Cinderella



That does not mean that it was you though. [/*]

jj has a twin?! :D I wonder if he is a curmudgeon too? j/k ya know ;)

[Cinderella]

J. J. was talking about being online and posting. That is not an alibi. I know that you are joking though. Can you imagine 2 J.J.'s? hammer

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella



I would say that family is inner circle unless they live in a different country and haven't been in touch with Ray.


Then there would be a nice electronic record of their communication, and probably 14-36 hour absences, all of which would attract LE's attention.


Where did you get your "Inner Circle" information?


From press accounts, descriptions of who works and who RFG has dated.


BTW, What do polygraphs mean, nothing. People can still lie and pass them. That is why they aren't used in court. It might make someone look good, but they are not 100% reliable. [/*]

No, they mean a much hire level of scrutiny on the testee. We have that with PEF, we have that with LG (who wasn't close geographically), but not on the others.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
J. J. was talking about being online and posting. That is not an alibi. I know that you are joking though. Can you imagine 2 J.J.'s? hammer [/*]

Some of the sites were exceptionally technical and very few people on the planet could have typed them, none of them with access to my computer. Also my writing style is well known, even JKA can attest to that. ;)

[J. J. in Phila]

BTW, on one of the other sites, the same photo appears. On the other two, a sizable number of the posters know me personally. :)

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Some of the sites were exceptionally technical and very few people on the planet could have typed them, none of them with access to my computer. Also my writing style is well known, even JKA can attest to that. ;) [/*]


You could have had a laptop J. J. I don't believe that anyone with certainty can prove who uses a site.

You could have written it before hand and one of your friends enter it in the computer.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
BTW, on one of the other sites, the same photo appears. On the other two, a sizable number of the posters know me personally. :) [/*]

http://www.danacarvey.net/media/snl_cl_extra_special.wav

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


http://www.danacarvey.net/media/snl_cl_extra_special.wav [/*]

I don't even have to look, that's not the site, though Cinderella, among others, is familiar with it.

[Cinderella]

Yes I do know where to find J. J. on the internet. Actually the place is internet home. :biggrin:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Yes I do know where to find J. J. on the internet. Actually the place is internet home. :biggrin: [/*]

Actually, it isn't though I believe on that site, my post count is something lke three times as much as here.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Politigal


http://www.danacarvey.net/media/snl_cl_extra_special.wav [/*]


Mhmmm...Xtraaaa Special..:lol: