A New Investigation

[day2day]

I found a couple of really good "old" posts. The threads were closed so I thought I would bring them here so we can discuss them.

The first post is from ParlorElephant

Let's start a new investigation, Logicworks.

First question. When did Gricar disappear? Objective fact: 9 PM on Thursday, April 14th. Corroboration? Courthouse surveillance camera.

Disappearance date selected by the investigation: April 15th. Why? Because PF says she got a call FROM HIM at the office on April 15th. Corroboration that Gricar placed that call? None.

Second question. Did he leave the courthouse and go home on April 14th or somewhere else? He went home. Why? PF says so. Corroboration? None.

Third question. Was he at home on the morning of April 15th before PF went to work? Yes. Why? PF says so. Corroboration? None.

Did he drive the mini on April 15th? He drove it to Lewisburg sometime in the morning. Why? Because PF says she got a call saying so at the office on April 15th. And that a day or two later it was found in Lewisburg in the appropriate place to match that conversation. Corroboration that HE was the one that drove it there? None. Strong suggestion that he was not? Smoke-filled car driven by a man who didn't smoke and according to family members hated smoking.

If Gricar drove the car, was the laptop in the car? Yes. Why?
Because it was missing when he was reported missing and turned up months later in the river. Why would that suggest it was in the car? Well, it couldn't be found and it eventually turned up in the river so FOLLOWING THE SUICIDE THEORY, for which of course there is zero evidence, that's the only place it could have been. Corroboration that it was ever in his car? None. Didn't have it when he left the courthouse on April 14th. Corroboration that it was in his house on April 15th? None. Corroboration that there was anything of value or potential danger on the laptop? None.

Premise that Gricar jumped into the river because he was depressed? Corroboration? None. Innuendo? After all, his
brother was once found in a river. Lewisburg has a river. His car was in Lewisburg near a river. Voila! He must have jumped in the river. Suicide note? No. Known reason to be considering suicide? No. Any prior history of suicide attempts? No. Strong suggestions he did not: if he wanted to drown himself, he was smart enough not to try it in a couple of feet of water in full view of anyone in the parklet; he was not given to dramatics; he was not given to destroying property; lack of a shred of evidence that he was depressed.

Over the summer months, the suicide theory seemed to be losing some public 'traction'. No body. No clues. The 'sure as day' collection of 'eyewitnesses' who 'saw' Gricar in Lewisburg turning out to be about as reliable as those in Wilkes-Barre, Texas, Michigan and all those other places from which reports of sightings came in. Still no reason offered to think he decided to cap off a relaxed day of antique shopping by killing himself and his laptop.

Then his laptop turns up in the previously thoroughly-searched river, very near the spot where the 'suicide' 'occurred', embedded. That must have been quite a powerful throw from the bridge to imbed it through several feet of standing water. The hard drive is missing. Why does that matter? Investigative premise: there's something of value on the hard drive to the investigation. Corroboration? None.

Public still skeptical about the suicide scenario. The hard drive makes its appearance? What's next? Wallet? Keys? Does the appearance of any of these items establish that he jumped into the river? No. Does it establish that he is responsible for them being in the river? No. Is it just coincidence that these
things manage to elude the initial search to surface over time and keep the suicide theory afloat?

ParlorElephant is NOT suggesting that the items were put in the river by LE. He doesn't think that. Corroboration. None. But every day PE wonders just a little more if this is someone's game. A game played out at the cost of the reputation of the man who it would appear is helpless to stop it.

A lot's been said, on these boards and off, about whether Gricar's disappearance is 'related' to the Luna murder. Why would it be? Two different LE agencies, two different states, different prosecution jobs, two men who presumably never met, never worked together. (PE doesn't put much stock in Keisling's thing about the 'big drug dealers' connecting the dots -killing prosecutors is bad for business.)

When you look at what happened AFTER Luna was killed, things get a little weird.

-------Luna's murder weapon, suddenly surfacing months after his death at the very spot searched without success by 150 LE the day of his murder. Gricar's laptop making a similar delayed appearance after a multi-day intensive river search immediately after his disappearance. A hard drive following not far behind, same general location.

--------Allegations of suicide in both cases with zero evidence to suggest it - a hard sell with Luna, given the extensive injuries -
with Gricar no body.

--------Assaults on Luna's reputation - maybe he traveled to Pennsylvania to tryst with a prostitue and was killed by her/him, maybe he was involved in pornography, maybe he stabbed himself 36 times to avoid taking a polygraph as to what became of $36,000 which disappeared between the courtroom and the evidence locker in one of his past cases. Allegations that Gricar may have had a lover, may have been suicidally depressed for some unknown reason, may have been engaged in some unspecified and unknown misconduct in connection with his job,
may have disregarded his responsibilites at work to take off for parts unknown. Corroboration? None.

Hard questions. Here's another. Why does this new DA just came in and right away said thanks, but no thanks, to the idea of getting help in the investigation from the Attorney General office. Other DAs sound like they think its needed and overdue at this point. Didn't this new guy say his connections with the Attorney General office would give the county a lot of options to do better investigations? Plus - MOO - seems like just self-preservation that you would want to know if the guy before you got 'disappeared' because of the work he was doing.

Keep applying that logic, Logicworks!

[day2day]

The second post is by LogicWorks..

Originally posted by logicworks


I think where the laptop was found IS significant, coupled with the fact the hard drive was missing, as is the likelihood of how it arrived there.

I do not see anything that points toward RG being a'schemer' or suicidal. He appears to have been a 'down to earth', level-headed, respected, responsible DA who healthily kept his private life 'private'.

I do not believe there was a sudden 'character change' the day he disappeared, when there is nothing to indicate that occurred but a few naps. He was responsible at 11:30 when he called, telling PF where he was and that he wouldn't be home in time to leave the dog out at noon, yet we are believe that shortly after that he just 'flipped' out, and 'lost it'?

If the only way the theory fits is to completely change RG's character, then I don't 'buy' it.

From what I understand about his character,
RG's throwing the county laptop off the bridge is out of character.
RG's removing a hard drive is out of character.
RG's having a laptop he rarely used with him on an 'off' day is out of character.
RG's leaving his cell phone in the car while taking his laptop is out of character.
RG's leaving his car behind is out of character.
RG's not showing up for work is out of character.
RG's not having any money is out of character.
RG's running out on everyone and everything in his life is out of character.

The media coverage of RG's disappearance has focused, from day one, on a new character/personality that RG MAY have changed into. I would rather see this case investigated as the disappearance of a responsible, hard-working DA. There are decades of proof to back that up and not one minute to back up the new personality created to fit the theory.
My opinion only.

[day2day]

LW's post really touched me. So many things we are "supposed" to believe are out of character for this man.

Adding to the list.
Mr. Gricar always emailed his staff when he would be out of the office (at least MS)..
It has been said that he had planned to take a half day off on 4/15-we KNOW for a fact he was in his office on 4/14 after 7 pm. WHY didn't he email his staff then and inform them he wouldn't be in Friday morning?!?...
That really bugs the crap out of me...

jmo-goes back to studying..:read:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day
LW's post really touched me. So many things we are "supposed" to believe are out of character for this man.

Adding to the list.
Mr. Gricar always emailed his staff when he would be out of the office (at least MS)..
It has been said that he had planned to take a half day off on 4/15-we KNOW for a fact he was in his office on 4/14 after 7 pm. WHY didn't he email his staff then and inform them he wouldn't be in Friday morning?!?...
That really bugs the crap out of me...

jmo-goes back to studying..:read:

MS was out of the office on the 15th also. Why would he have been sent an email to let him know that RG would be out? He never said if there was in fact, an email on his computer that alerted the staff to RG being off on the 15th.

He wasn't even able to be gotten hold of by JKA. Wonder where he was exactly and why his cell phone has such a bad connection when people who live in the Pittsburgh area never lose connection on their phones?

[day2day]

Originally posted by Politigal


Actually - Mark Smith said Gricar would *call* or email if he was taking off.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-04-18-penn-da_x.htm

Smith said Gricar would typically have his cell phone with him when he was traveling and would call or e-mail the office if he was going to be late or take the day off.


Mhmmm so imo 4/15/05 wasn't a typical day for Mr. Gricar..

[day2day]

Originally posted by Politigal


IMO - *4/14* was the atypical day


You might be right! I want to know so badly what happed that day ..:read:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by gstickley, on the locked Puzzling thread (thanks CW):

As I tear myself away from all this for a week or so, I hope you all remember a couple things:

Remember who started the name-calling, the labeling of other posters & ask yourself why?

Remember Abraham Lincoln's words, "A house divided against itself cannot stand".

Abe's words seem very appropriate for this forum. Hope you return well rested, gstickley. What I remember is repeated attempts (since May '05) to narrow discussion on this forum to a particular theory and protagonist, based only on circumstantial suspicion, not incriminating evidence. We are good at asking questions, but not so good at getting authoritative answers. That has left us with only our opinions. And we are divided in our opinions...go figure. But with the utmost respect for Lincoln, this divided house still stands.

Maybe it is style, or just a proclivity to use the ampersand (or just me), but I feel the discussion has, once again, come full circle to a familiar theme. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I just wish that this time around, facts might replace at least some of the circumstantial suspicion. There has to be more. Prayers for Ray Gricar and his loved ones.

All just my own opinion.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Hope you return well rested, gstickley. What I remember is repeated attempts (since May '05) to narrow discussion on this forum to a particular theory and protagonist, based only on circumstantial suspicion, not incriminating evidence. We are good at asking questions, but not so good at getting authoritative answers. That has left us with only our opinions. And we are divided in our opinions...go figure. But with the utmost respect for Lincoln, this divided house still stands.

Maybe it is style, or just a proclivity to use the ampersand (or just me), but I feel the discussion has, once again, come full circle to a familiar theme. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I just wish that this time around, facts might replace at least some of the circumstantial suspicion. There has to be more. Prayers for Ray Gricar and his loved ones.

All just my own opinion.

I certainly pray for Mr. Gricar and his entire family daily. I have for 2 years...at times even getting angry with God because my prayers haven't been answered.

And then I have been reminded..

that prayers are answered in His time...

which makes it hard for those of us with little patience.

I also miss gs ....

:rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Hope you return well rested, gstickley. What I remember is repeated attempts (since May '05) to narrow discussion on this forum to a particular theory and protagonist, based only on circumstantial suspicion, not incriminating evidence. We are good at asking questions, but not so good at getting authoritative answers. That has left us with only our opinions. And we are divided in our opinions...go figure. But with the utmost respect for Lincoln, this divided house still stands.


Well, I do agree that there were massive attempts, by a few, to focus on one scenario and one individual, which is unfortunate. I do disagree that there has no new information; we have had some questions answered.


Maybe it is style, or just a proclivity to use the ampersand (or just me), but I feel the discussion has, once again, come full circle to a familiar theme.


Before there is any re-opened investigation, one thing should be checked out, either eliminated or indicated. Walk away.


There has to be more. Prayers for Ray Gricar and his loved ones.


Agreed.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


What's your opinion of the attempts to narrow down discussion?

First, increase or decrease the likelihood of walk away.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


so which were you plugging? :tongue:

I go where the evidence takes me.

[day2day]

Was there anyone else in Mr. Gricar's office on the evening of 4/14/2005...?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Perhaps Gricar was looking for a new home or place to stay at Raystown?

The DA position has a residence requirement. Raystown is well out of Centre County.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


he was retiring.....

And he wasn't retired yet. There could have been no move out of the county until January 2006, if he expected to keep the job.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks

I would guess the PB meeting would run no later than 10 am, if it began at 8; two hours being used as a hypothetical amount of time necessary for the meeting. Nothing amiss that has been reported.


The meeting becan at 8:05 AM and adjourned at 8:45 AM and handled a grievance. It was probably over by 9:15 AM.


We know he emailed another attorney sometime on Thursday regarding an upcoming case re: vehicular/motorcycle accident and was not out of sorts with her.


We do?


We hear he was supposedly back in the office, slamming door around 3 pm.


JKA is exceptionally vague on the time.

We know, LG called sometime prior to 3 PM, but we don't know where RFG was when he got the call.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


how do you know she called prior to 3?

Unlike you, I can tell time.:lol:

Sarcasm off. LG said she called him, in the morning of 4/14/05. That means before noon, her time, three hours behind Central PA. Hence, she called him before 3 PM, Eastern Time.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Speaking of that time difference ---

it's a shame Patty didn't phone Lara Gricar on Friday to see if she & Gricar had spoken.

It would have been 3 hours earlier there.....




He probably didn't drive from 192 to Seattle in 12 hours. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal And, I'm curious if PF called *any* of Gricar's friends or coworkers or the Gamble Mill Inn (since they went there every Friday) looking for him - like Sloane, Smith --- ANYBODY

Gamble Mills was closed, Smith wasn't a friend and was possibly incommunicado. Sloane was recovering from something.

[UndertheRadar]

Who said Sloane was so sick that he couldn't have received a phone call from Gricar? Being on disability doesn't mean someone can't use the phone, does it?

Walker was a friend.

There were surely other friends PF could have made a list of. Gricar may have been private and reserved, but he wasn't entirely without a social circle.

Once again, the point is not to "guess" that RG wouldn't be in a particular place. The point is to check reasonable possibilities and eliminate them to be certain he is truly "missing" while doing something proactive to try to locate him.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Politigal


Heck, Sloane was out campaiging for Judge when he was "sick."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_km4458/is_200703/ai_n18700415

Yep. And others we know on disability manage to use the phone and tell us about it many times over.

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, and we some that don't like to get the information that they request. :biggrin:

PEF assumed that when he went out, 9-12 hours before, he wasn't visiting a sick friend or heading toward State College. She also assumed that RFG would have left a note, if he came home and went back out. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


when did you learn Gamble Mill Inn was closed that Friday?

A website, which noted it closed at 9:00 PM; I'm guessing it stops serving at 9:00 PM.

http://www.visitpa.com/visitpa/details.pa;jsessionid=C7FF9AE9049681A5D1B5B4E8789A 3F6F?id=234715

80% of what I know, I find out by using a web search. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Yes, JJ. We do know he emailed SPM on Thursday.
What we don't know is what time. If we had those times, it might be helpful.

Original post 2-1-07 by Logicworks with SPM questions posed to the CDT on 5/13/06

SPM specifically states that some of the emails took place the day before he disappeared.
That would be Thursday, when we are told he was off in the morning to the PBM, then supposedly off in the afternoon to
Raystown, may have been back in office mid-afternoon, then in Talleyrand Park at 5:30ish, THEN back in the office for three hours, leaving shortly after 9 pm.

Do we know when those emails passed between RG and SPM and where the emails originated from, laptop, office, home computer?
If office, does the time coincide with RG's being there or were they dictated messages that were then sent by secretary/clerk?


SPM.......(CDT)
I was wondering if you (and the police?) were aware that not only did the asst. da feel certain she saw ray in the back parking lot around 3, but that one of our judges also backed her up, indicating he saw him there also. 2 people who knew him are very hard to discount! She saw him in a car that was goldish or tannish and...I was told but do not know this first hand, that Patti has a second goldish tannish car. It is possible he for some reason came back and disappeared from state college!

Also, I had a homicide by vehicle trial with Ray scheduled for June 1. *****We had emailed back and forth the day before he disappeared and a bunch during that week.******
While Im not sure I have anything to add, it is odd that I was not questioned. He was joking around and seemed to be looking forward to our trial as it had been in the paper and garnered some controversy. Im glad the interest is renewed. Ray deserves to stay in the headlines this mystery is solved. SPM 5/13/06

JMO

"During the week" is not 4/14/05. Can you provide a link or was this the CDT Forum?

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay, I found it. There should be a record on both of their computers.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


That someWHERE that we know of is in the Raystown area.


We don't. We have a witness report (I think singular) that he was there. We don't know the credibility of the witness, or the time.

We have witness reports that RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/16/05. I don't take those as Gospel either.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



According to SPM, LE never bothered to check, at least not as late as 5/06. Why not?

Actually, they did check his computer, where there is a record of the e-mails; that was done very early.

[UndertheRadar]

VAN SUSTEREN: Was there anything unusual about his behavior the night before?

FORNICOLA: No. No. He seemed normal to me. There was nothing unusual.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156683,00.html

County commissioner Chris Exarchos saw Gricar at a meeting the day before he disappeared and said "there was nothing remarkable about that meeting."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by logicworks



Exactly my point.....whatever occurred to 'rile' RG occurred after the meeting and likely is what created the need to then immediately take some time 'off' to get to the bottom of it. I think when he came back, slamming door indicates he didn't like what he found. The local confrontation point is where I think the problem escalated.
JMO

KA seems to narrow the period of RG's acting in a way that appeared obviously distraught over something to the week preceding the disappearance, at least insofar as her observations go:

But his mood during the week preceding his disappearance was of a different order of things. The very fact that it showed was unusual. Ray was normally good at keeping his 'game face' on regardless of what was occurring.

I was asked if I had noticed anything unusual about Ray's behavior that week, and told him that Ray had seemed distraught about something earlier that week. I was told that he had already talked to various other staff members before calling me and that "everyone is telling me the same thing". That response has stood out for me on each occasion when I have read media statements attributed to police that there was nothing unusual about Ray’s conduct that week.

In this passage, she indicates that LE confirms to her that others have said the same thing.

Perhaps it might be useful for a moment to separate the additional napping and tiredness that Ray expressed from the "being distraught." These could be two separate entities rather than a constellation of "symptoms."

If something was making him distraught THAT WEEK which came to a head in Huntingdon on Thursday, leading to door slamming back in CC on Thursday afternoon, we may be narrowing in on the escalation point of the "distraught" behavior.

[J. J. in Phila]

JKA doesn't describe in what ways RFG was "distraught." Crying? Yelling? Looking tired and preoccupied?

[UndertheRadar]

True, KA gives no specifics regarding Ray's distraught behavior. But "looking tired" or being "preoccupied" would hardly fit under the general description she does give:

But his mood during the week preceding his disappearance was of a different order of things. The very fact that it showed was unusual.

There isn't anyone who works with other people who hasn't seen co-workers "tired" and "pre-occupied" on a regular basis. That kind of thing ebbs and flows with the work load and circadian rhythms. In 19 years, KA had clearly seen RG pre-occupied before, and in fact, even mentions such.

Whatever she and others witnessed had to be something more remarkable than what they had witnessed in the past.

[sherrijean981]

Would it have had anything to do with the case he was to be testifying about on Monday morning that everyone mentions on Monday when he doesn't show up for it? What cases were being worked on at the end of the week, that might have been up for trial in the early part of the week?

Did the cases go on or were any cancelled or extended? What was the outcome of the early Monday morning trial? Did it make a difference that RG wasn't there? To the counties good or the person being tried?

[J. J. in Phila]

But his mood during the week preceding his disappearance was of a different order of things. The very fact that it showed was unusual.

This is so general as to be worthless as description.

[UndertheRadar]

I would imagine that KA gave LE specifics about what she witnessed. Her point in this particular section appears to be this:

I was told that he had already talked to various other staff members before calling me and that "everyone is telling me the same thing". That response has stood out for me on each occasion when I have read media statements attributed to police that there was nothing unusual about Ray’s conduct that week.

IOW, she is contrasting what LE said in private communication to her regarding what they have heard from witnesses about Ray's behavior in the week preceding his disappearance to things appearing in the media, purportedly from LE regarding the same, and questioning why there is a difference.

That's an important question.

[J. J. in Phila]

While that might be an important question regarding the investigation, it does not tell us anything about RFG's demeanor.

[UndertheRadar]

But I think the whole point of KA speaking out was her desire to get people to take a look at the investigation.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Quite the contrary IMO.

Something was going on - he wasn't happy about something. He was forcefully closing his office door, etc.

Something...

RFG's being distraught is solely express by him slamming doors. That really expresses his demeanor. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

With all due respect to JKA, I'm much more interested in what happened to RFG that what the BPD/PSP or some bloggers, were doing.

If she's lost sight of that, she's not helping RFG.

[UndertheRadar]

Then I think you're missing the point of what KA is saying.

That can happen when someone is so wrapped up in criticizing a piece for not being what that person wants it to be that he doesn't fully analyze and comprehend what it does offer.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
But I think the whole point of KA speaking out was her desire to get people to take a look at the investigation.

I agree UTR. I have been going back over this case from day1. And some of the statements made and the things "done" in this case ...are amazing!:D

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day


I agree UTR. I have been going back over this case from day1. And some of the statements made and the things "done" in this case ...are amazing!:D

Yep. And it makes me wonder if a lot of the anti-KA spin we've seen (dare we call it "KA bashing"?) from PB on down isn't designed in part with the hope of discrediting KA so that people don't take a closer look at the investigation?

JMO.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Yep. And it makes me wonder if a lot of the anti-KA spin we've seen (dare we call it "KA bashing"?) from PB on down isn't designed in part with the hope of discrediting KA so that people don't take a closer look at the investigation?

JMO.

Mmhmm!! I thought people would be THRILLED that someone that spent so much time working for Mr. Gricar took the time and effort to put their thoughts "out there" for everyone to read.

I guess I thought wrong! Maybe there are those who would benefit from this case never being solved?:shrug:

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Cinderella


That was what I was thinking with the Patty Bashing, was it to keep people looking at her instead of someone else. Join the club. :shrug:

I think everyone who has raised issues about PF has done so sincerely, not in some grand conspiracy to keep the heat off some other suspect. JMO.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day


Mmhmm!! I thought people would be THRILLED that someone that spent so much time working for Mr. Gricar took the time and effort to put their thoughts "out there" for everyone to read.

I guess I thought wrong! Maybe there are those who would benefit from this case never being solved?:shrug:

That's what you would think.

And that's what you have to wonder.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


That's what you would think.

And that's what you have to wonder.


It does make me wonder!!:seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella


That was what I was thinking with the Patty Bashing, was it to keep people looking at her instead of someone else. Join the club. :shrug:

Well, there are some vague things about JKA's narrative. Here we have a witness to RFG's demeanor for the week before he disappeared. The first person description is that he was "very distraught." How was he "very distraught?"

JKA's noted that she contacted a county official, hopefully someone at the coroner's office and not the sealer of weights and measures. She claimed she was following protocol for a dead body found in Centre County. Why did she think he would be in Centre County? Why didn't she contact the people, that were actually in the field and suggest this? She indicated that the PSP and BPD were there.

I think she was being prudent in suggesting an autopsy, if a body was found. She was not being prudent by just suggesting it to Centre County.

And, of course, "Why now, Karen?"

All of that makes you wonder. :shrug:

[Serendipitous1]

My opinion - just some observations. I am not a KA basher, but I think if there ever were unsworn statements where we might rely on careful word selection, it would be KA’s statements. She is a lawyer after all.

In her comments on a CDT article on 4/15/06, she said that Gricar was in the office for at least part of Thursday afternoon. That does not seem to leave any doubt. But in her recent blog she said it was her impression that he was present in his office at some point that afternoon, although she could not recall seeing or talking to him. Her impression appears to be based solely on RG’s alleged habit of “forcefully closing his door when he was preoccupied or busy”, an event which she recalls had occurred a number of times that day around mid-afternoon.

I must, by the way, respectfully object when a poster here distorts KA’s impression to imply that RG was supposedly in his office because he was “slamming” his door around 3 pm. No one (including KA) has confirmed publicly that RG was in his office at all during regular hours on Thursday. And rather than establishing his presence there, the purpose of KA’s comment seems to be more toward bolstering her assertion that RG was preoccupied by something that week (and possibly that day). But is that even true?

KA’s comment in the CDT was that RG was clearly upset and preoccupied about something during the week he disappeared. In her blog she said she had no doubt that he was deeply distraught about something that week, and that it went well beyond simple busyness or preoccupation. When asked by DZ that Saturday morning, she apparently only told him that Ray had seemed distraught about something earlier that week. These statements are not wholly consistent either. And, although DZ apparently told her that the staff members he had already talked to were saying the same thing, none of them (including DZ) has come forward to confirm it.

That same Saturday, at the evening news conference, authorities said only that Gricar had been working hard lately and had told others that he felt tired (PhillyBurbs.com). According to the Daily Collegian the quote by Dixon was “He has told his friends and family he’s been feeling a little tired lately.” In the search warrant affidavit, PF apparently stated that RG had complained the last 3 weeks of fatigue and would often take naps at lunch or after work, and that she had encouraged him to seek a medical examination. It was suggested in a post here that this “fatigue” was embellished in order to be able to justify the warrant.

Two county commissioners who attended the hour long (8-9 am) prison board meeting that Thursday noticed nothing unusual in Gricar’s demeanor (CDT, 5/1/05). In the GVS interview (5/4/05), LG said she had called her dad on Thursday morning on her way to school and he sounded very upbeat; that she did not sense anything out of the ordinary. In response to possible suicide, LG said he did not seem depressed or have any significant signs of depression (possibly hedging). In the CDT Q&A, SPM (apparently a CC defense attorney) related that she and RG “had emailed back and forth the day before he disappeared and a bunch during that week”, and that he “was joking around and seemed to be looking forward to our trial...”.

Despite our questions regarding where RG was and what he did between about 9 am (after he left the prison board meeting) and around 5:30 pm (when he and PF were observed strolling in the park), the only published reference seems to be a statement DZ allegedly made to Renner (Cleveland Free Times) - that some people saw him at Raystown Dam in the Huntingdon area (a sighting which KA, in her blog, believes unlikely). But Renner also inserted the date (Thursday, April 14) into DZ’s quote, rendering the time frame questionable. That supposed sighting appears in Renner’s “Theory Two: Suicide”. But Renner goes on to state that RG’s coworkers noticed no difference in his demeanor, and that MS told him that he (RG) did not have any change in his physical appearance or mental state, and that the entire office was baffled by his disappearance.

The point of my (latest) long winded, convoluted dissertation is that, based on what I have read, I do not have a clue what RG’s demeanor was that week. People who have known him for years, and who have no apparent reason to lie or misinform, have offered completely different opinions. And I have read nothing yet which confirms that RG did not basically just take Thursday off.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

IMO, Gricar's demeanor specifically on Thurs 4/14 is what's important, considering no one else saw or spoke to him after Thursday (other than Patty Fornicola) IMO, part and parcel to the elusive "Revelation Range".

[day2day]

Originally posted by Cinderella


You are forgetting the Construction Worker, Mystery Woman, whom JKA knows but will not tell who she it. Talk about getting information from her.

Mr. Bennett also saw him. So did others. Or are they all liars?

JMO, MOO

I like how you try to have the story fit your theory that PF is guilty of harming RG. See how you twist words and then you want PF to come on here. :santa:

Or Carolyn Fenton..of course they never believed her because it didn't "fit" their theory..

:shrug:

jmo

[ladyheartfixer]

I never could understand how the Raystown Lake became inserted into this mystery. I would think supposed credible witnesses were questioned and this was confirmed but...gee whiz...I just don't remember reading of anyone who actually came forward or made statements. I would think it would be difficult to recognize RG if you had never met him...newspaper pics are not all that great..people often look much different in person...

oh..and btw...can we stick to the case and quit bashing each other before the whole darm RG section gets shut down..it's hard enough to keep my data staight without having to go search on discs and cd's for info...thanx...
LHF :seeya:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks
<Snip>
If you object to the idea RG may have been in the office that day to slam his own door, can you offer any other explanation of who may have felt entitled to slam RG's door, since KA notes that it is a 'shared wall thus obvious' what door was being slammed, and she does not recall any other member of staff ever doing so? My opinion: I object to the characterization of a long-standing habit of forcefully closing the door, when preoccupied or busy, as "slamming" the door. "Slamming" imparts a sense of anger which clearly was not present in KA's statement. I am not sure what difference it makes whether RG was there at some point during working hours or not. But is he the invisible man? Is there no one besides KA who can shed some light on this?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks

Are you saying Renner pulled the Raystown Dam in the Huntingdon area sighting 'out of his hat' and Z never mentioned it? That Renner pulled a map out and decided he could make up a good story about a nearby lake, and a sighting there?

What makes Thursday, April 14th questionable for the Raystown Dam sighting? I haven't seen anything to tie the Huntingdon sighting together with route 192 or to Lewisburg on Friday. In fact, IIRC DZ went on to say that RG was possibly scoping out areas out beforehand, water places where he might commit suicide which was why he POSSIBLY was in the Raystown Dam area.
JMO I am saying that the many factual errors in Renner's piece on RG (as apparently also in his book on an Ohio murder) renders the rest of his article suspect. My opinion only...right UtR? I am not sure what difference it makes whether RG was there at some point Thursday or not. But is there no one besides the silent DZ who can shed some light on this?

[ladyheartfixer]

I agree completely S1...no one else has come forward to confirm the "sighting(s)". Just causes one to pause and wonder...and of course...this is jmo

[day2day]

billywahoo
Member

Registered: May 2005
Location:
Posts: 313
i think some of you might be misinterpreting the phone call into the office. he was clearly calling to speak to patty, or catch her voicemail, it just so happens that she was also the person who answered the phone. patty's concern began to grow when she called him in the early evening. she received no response, so she periodically continued to call. when it became very late, she asked her brother if she was being paranoid, he said "no" since he is a public official involved in the prosecution of criminals. the decision was made to contact police, who concurred.


Another old post that makes me wonder...

IF Mr. Gricar was placing the call to PF ...then the call wasn't to inform his staff he was playing hooky..right? Had she already informed the staff before the call that Mr. Gricar wasn't going to be in?


:shrug:

[ladyheartfixer]

Actually LW you have a point...I don't think any sighting after the park walk have ever been confirmed....

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day



Another old post that makes me wonder...

IF Mr. Gricar was placing the call to PF ...then the call wasn't to inform his staff he was playing hooky..right? Had she already informed the staff before the call that Mr. Gricar wasn't going to be in?


:shrug:

The call was about taking the dog out, according to PEF, and mentioned earlier by LG.

As for witnesses, it depends by what you mean by "confirmed." I treat eyewitness testimony, when not verified by other witnesses, or physical evidence as suspect. If I didn't, I'd proclaim this a walkaway.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


The call was about taking the dog out, according to PEF, and mentioned earlier by LG.

As for witnesses, it depends by what you mean by "confirmed." I treat eyewitness testimony, when not verified by other witnesses, or physical evidence as suspect. If I didn't, I'd proclaim this a walkaway.

Right ..to let the dog out. But when was his staff told that he wouldn't be in? Before or after the call? Or do we "know"?

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
Actually LW you have a point...I don't think any sighting after the park walk have ever been confirmed....

IMO, the last objective, confirmed evidence of Gricar alive is the videotape at the courthouse, approximately 9:07 p.m. Thursday night.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


Right ..to let the dog out. But when was his staff told that he wouldn't be in? Before or after the call? Or do we "know"?

S1 noted what PB said, and he apparently checked with LE.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day


Right ..to let the dog out. But when was his staff told that he wouldn't be in? Before or after the call? Or do we "know"?

I hate to say this, but doesn't your question go back to the whole day/half day issue? If RG said in the morning he was taking the whole day off, then if there was an email to the staff, they should have known before the phone call.

If as Billywahoo says the phone call was in part to "advise" about Gricar taking the rest of the day off, then there would have to be a second "advisement" of the staff, no?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal

yep Lara said she thought the call was supposed to let PF know that Gricar wouldn't be able to let the dog out at lunch, which doesn't make any sense at all IMO

Okay, it doesn't make sense that LG and PEF talk to each other about the disappearance of a mutual loved one. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

A good way to lose all credibility is regard Billywahoo as a credible source.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


I hate to say this, but doesn't your question go back to the whole day/half day issue? If RG said in the morning he was taking the whole day off, then if there was an email to the staff, they should have known before the phone call.

If as Billywahoo says the phone call was in part to "advise" about Gricar taking the rest of the day off, then there would have to be a second "advisement" of the staff, no?

Exactly! Things just don't add up, do they?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


Exactly! Things just don't add up, do they?

D2D, you are now basing your thoughts on a poster that claims inside information and has a track record that indicates he doesn't. :rolleyes:

[Serendipitous1]

My opinion:

logicworks - I did not want to take up band width (or whatever CW calls it) by quoting your last post on this thread, but that is the fairest and most complete overview I have seen yet of where we are in this discussion. Well done!

ladyheartfixer - As far as I know, nothing about the supposed Raystown Dam sighting(s) has ever appeared in the mainstream media. We do not have confirmation that DZ was fairly quoted in that one piece. Several sightings have been widely published and addressed by LE. Apparently there have been many other "sightings" we have heard nothing about.

day2day and UndertheRadar - I agree completely that the precise details of the call, and when and how the staff was notified that RG would not be in Friday, are key questions, the answers to which have been (perhaps intentionally) inconsistent in every venue.

J. J. in Phila - I have generally found billywahoo to have been a credible source of information. I suppose that makes me an "incredible" person.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion:

logicworks - I did not want to take up band width (or whatever CW calls it) by quoting your last post on this thread, but that is the fairest and most complete overview I have seen yet of where we are in this discussion. Well done!

ladyheartfixer - As far as I know, nothing about the supposed Raystown Dam sighting(s) has ever appeared in the mainstream media. We do not have confirmation that DZ was fairly quoted in that one piece. Several sightings have been widely published and addressed by LE. Apparently there have been many other "sightings" we have heard nothing about.

day2day and UndertheRadar - I agree completely that the precise details of the call, and when and how the staff was notified that RG would not be in Friday, are key questions, the answers to which have been (perhaps intentionally) inconsistent in every venue.

J. J. in Phila - I have generally found billywahoo to have been a credible source of information. I suppose that makes me an "incredible" person.


Mornin S1...
I must be "incredible" with you ...cause I have always found billywahoo's posts to be accurate.

Just wanted to say -great post S1!!

And LW-...(groans at the use of the "stone" phrase-lol)-but your post is right on the money.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by day2day
<snip>
Mornin S1...
I must be "incredible" with you ...cause I have always found billywahoo's posts to be accurate. We can add tonyGricar to the "incredible" list too, based on his responses to "an apparent hot-button issue"...billywahoo. We will soon have enough for a fan club. You can be president...if you supply the tee shirts! Make mine an "L". All my opinion.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
We can add tonyGricar to the "incredible" list too, based on his responses to "an apparent hot-button issue"...billywahoo. We will soon have enough for a fan club. You can be president...if you supply the tee shirts! Make mine an "L". All my opinion.

Thank you for nominating me President. And of course I accept :)!
I will order your shirt -(L -for you)! And I am pretty darn sure that tonyGricar would want one-but I am not sure what size he would wear! But I would guess (XL for him)-heck if its too big-he can just grow into it!:D

:seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion:

J. J. in Phila - I have generally found billywahoo to have been a credible source of information. I suppose that makes me an "incredible" person.

You are quite credible. BW, though he knew Bellefonte, and possibly did attend the press conferences, but I don't see him as being the most reliable poster. Some others have said the same things.

[UndertheRadar]

My thoughts on Billywahoo are that Billy occupied a position to offer more credible answers to our questions than just about anyone who has posted on this forum, when and if he chose to do so. Not to recognize that would strike me as a failure of perception of monumental proportions. The question with credibility insofar as Billy is concerned lies not with his actual knowledge of things but with his own admitted enjoyment of "a bit of misdirection," and therefore the board's need to sort out what is real and what is Memorex. JMO.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


You are quite credible. BW, though he knew Bellefonte, and possibly did attend the press conferences, but I don't see him as being the most reliable poster. Some others have said the same things.


...

One day spent on trying to explain why BG is "family" and that the "family" called CB.

One day spent deciding if billywahoo is credible.

EQUALS-

A lot of wasted time..

IMO:shrug:

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day



...

One day spent on trying to explain why BG is "family" and that the "family" called CB.

One day spent deciding if billywahoo is credible.

EQUALS-

A lot of wasted time..

IMO:shrug:

Add on a day trying to explain that KA didn't presume RG's body would turn up in Centre County simply because she wanted his protocol of an autopsy followed.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Add on a day trying to explain that KA didn't presume RG's body would turn up in Centre County simply because she wanted his protocol of an autopsy followed.

I forgot that UTR! ...

Adding that means LOTS of wasted time..:seeya:

[day2day]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I remember Billy Wahoo being on this site. I also remember a lot of conflict and posters being pretty nasty with him. Now all of a sudden he is credible and everything that he said is peachy keen.

I was one of the posters telling others that Billy Wahoo knew what he was talking about. When I get time, I will have to go back and try to review what the conflict with Billy Wahoo was all about. I seem to think that Parlor Elephant was disagreeing with Billy Wahoo. I will have to see what others.

Why is everything now so peachy keen about Billy Wahoo when he was getting "bashed" when he was online. I don't get it.

JMO, MOO

Cind..
BW was pretty mean to me right from the get go. I will never forget her/his "choke on my mouse " comment. IMO even though I don't see eye to eye with everyone here..I still respect you and your opinions 100 percent.

And even if BW was "mean" and sarcastic .. I think she/he knew alot more than some people choose to give bw credit for..

jmo of course

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I remember Billy Wahoo being on this site. I also remember a lot of conflict and posters being pretty nasty with him. Now all of a sudden he is credible and everything that he said is peachy keen.

I was one of the posters telling others that Billy Wahoo knew what he was talking about. When I get time, I will have to go back and try to review what the conflict with Billy Wahoo was all about. I seem to think that Parlor Elephant was disagreeing with Billy Wahoo. I will have to see what others.

Why is everything now so peachy keen about Billy Wahoo when he was getting "bashed" when he was online. I don't get it.

JMO, MOO

Cind, I don't see "peachy Keen" on this thread entirely. I still see some mixed reception to Billy. As it was always . . .

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Do you know who SPM is?

Nope, not a name. Just that SPM posted in the Gricar Q&A about having emailed back and forth with Ray the day before he disappeared, regarding an upcoming case.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day


Cind..
BW was pretty mean to me right from the get go. I will never forget her/his "choke on my mouse " comment. IMO even though I don't see eye to eye with everyone here..I still respect you and your opinions 100 percent.

And even if BW was "mean" and sarcastic .. I think she/he knew alot more than some people choose to give bw credit for..

jmo of course

I jsut read your comment about BW saying "choke on my mouse". A certain "wild, cowboy type attorney" - my words, came to mind when I read it. He had that type attitude didn't he?

[day2day]

Originally posted by Cinderella


day, You have to admit that sometimes we say the dumbest things. ROTFLMAO
I forget who it was the other night that I said she would be eating Turkey. LOL ... I love turkey, I meant crow and couldn't think of the word and she comes back and says, I love Turkey.
You have to take a breather once in a while. People have probably said worse to you than "Choking on your Mouse"
:santa: I do though understand.

LOL turkey-crow..both are birds!! ..pretty funny stuff cind!

[day2day]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


I jsut read your comment about BW saying "choke on my mouse". A certain "wild, cowboy type attorney" - my words, came to mind when I read it. He had that type attitude didn't he?

He/she had a huge attitude...!! But he/she also seemed "in the loop".. i need to go back and read more and see what else i can find ..
:)

[Serendipitous1]

For the paramour enthusiasts, what do you make of these billywahoo posts (5/17/05)...fact or "spin"?:

"and while we're on the pf topic, i find it amusing that people are not giving her much benefit of the doubt, considering you absolutely know nothing about her. you can float all the roses you want to lara, but you might want to consider that pf has lost the person who was supposed to be her companion, and possible wife, for the rest of their lives. i think lara might be the first one to tell you this (besides me)."

And...

"i should add that i'm no different than anyone else on always wanting to look at the inner-circle first, and then investigate outward. i do seem to recall that you were interested in carla's involvement and any clues she could provide to help. do you recall her thoughts on ruling out pf, or do you only appreciate her other possible info?

my point is that you might want to take into consideration there may be a reason LE is not going down the PF road. do you think the public should be made aware of this for any reason? the public should be made aware to report anything suspicious or be on the look out for anything or anyone. i'm sure LE is more than aware of the statistics on who's most likely responsible for a relational disappearance.

maybe i should say it this way, if pf underwent, and passed a lie detector test, what is owed to you to hit the presses with it?"

I should point out that these posts occurred 2 months before the much publicized PF polygraph.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day



...

One day spent on trying to explain why BG is "family" and that the "family" called CB.

One day spent deciding if billywahoo is credible.

EQUALS-

A lot of wasted time..

IMO:shrug:

No, the big waste of time was trying to prove how PEF could have drive the Mini, how she could have made the call from Brush Valley, how the scent trail was planted, or how I'm "connected" to the case.:rolleyes:

Some of those things were going on a long time before I showed up.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, the big waste of time was trying to prove how PEF could have drive the Mini, how she could have made the call from Brush Valley, how the scent trail was planted, or how I'm "connected" to the case.:rolleyes:

Some of those things were going on a long time before I showed up.

I don't believe PF drove the mini ...
I don't believe PF made the call ..I don't believe Mr. Gricar did either :)
I think the dogs were confused ..
I doubt you are connected to this case..(or you would be nicer to your fellow posters):D

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


This was only 1 month after the disappearance. IMO, it's possible police weren't going down the PF road because they knew about the mystery woman report.

I think PEF had volunteered to take the test by that point.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Politigal
I haven't found any photos of Gricar with a watch...

The man at the Chili's in TX was wearing a watch on his left arm though.

My memory's vague on this, but wasn't there something about the watch in that TX photo that suggested it wasn't Ray? Either that the watch was on the wrong arm, or that Ray didn't typically wear a watch at all, something along those lines. I just forget what the specifics were.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day


He/she had a huge attitude...!! But he/she also seemed "in the loop".. i need to go back and read more and see what else i can find ..
:)

That was how JB acted when on the one tv show, that he knew RG but turned around and cut him down. His words were mean and demeaning.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Does anyone have a photo of Ray wearing a watch? I thought that I had posted an old picture of Ray sitting in the DA's office, but I can't find it. I am looking for a photo of Ray with a watch.

My husband is left handed and wears his watch just as the man in the TX photo. I used my magnifying glass and the man seems to have a lower hair line in the center of his forhead than RG. RG's goes back a little further. My glass doesn't get close to the ears though so I can't tell that way. I am not sure it is him either, there is just something off about him.
JMO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


My husband is left handed and wears his watch just as the man in the TX photo. I used my magnifying glass and the man seems to have a lower hair line in the center of his forhead than RG. RG's goes back a little further. My glass doesn't get close to the ears though so I can't tell that way. I am not sure it is him either, there is just something off about him.
JMO

I'm sorry, I meant my husband is left handed and wears his on his right arm. I wear mine like the man in the photo. I don't know where my mind is tonight. Sorry!

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05229/555106.stm

You can click on the picture to make it bigger or use the magnifying glass.


They stated that Ray didn't own a watch that looked like that. The man is wearing the watch on his left wrist which most likely means that he is right handed. Comparing pictures of that to the one on the Gricar site with him holding Tony's baby. You can see the v shape around the ear. I personally think PF was right and I think that it was Ray. The waitress was shown pictures and pointed out Ray from the pictures. He could have been using his right hand until he thought that he was being noticed then switched hands. JMO, MOO

At any rate, I believe that Ray is alive and well. I feel for some reason the family members that know this do not want anyone else to know it. I believe that is why they were focusing on suicide so early. For everyone to think that he committed suicide.
I don't know maybe it is for a safety issue. Maybe someone is after him. JMO, MOO

Cindi, take your magnifying glass anc check his knee on the right leg and the top of his leg at the knee on the left leg. It looks like bruising or a scab on the right leg and a large reddish mark on the top of the left leg.

I could be wrong though it looks like a bag with the top of a bottle in front of the right leg.

Also the man's left eyebrow only goes part way over the eye and RG's goes almost to the corner of the left eye, on a down curve.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

This was only 1 month after the disappearance. IMO, it's possible police weren't going down the PF road because they knew about the mystery woman report. My opinion:

I guess it is just me then. Billywahoo stated the obvious...that LE would know to (and 'he', like everyone else, would want them to) look at the inner-circle first. 'He' suggested that LE would never share the sensitive details of that part of the investigation, then (as an example) seemed to intimate that PF had already been given a polygraph test.

I would not believe for a moment that anyone close to RG would stand for anything less than a thorough investigation, starting with the inner-circle. I believe LE has thoroughly investigated that aspect and that there are two possible outcomes: that everyone in the inner-circle has been ruled out as having had any involvement, or that there is one (or more) who has not been ruled out. I believe billywahoo was pointing to the former, because if the latter were true, diverting public attention from the inner-circle would discourage people from coming forward with potentially relevant information.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal

again...those statements were made 1 month after

not enough time for a *thorough* investigation in that short time frame My opinion:

KA (blog) indicated that PF was off work for perhaps two weeks after the disappearance. Based on CDT articles, LG was in PA for those same two weeks. I think TG was around then also, maybe even CG. Thorough or not, I believe the investigation of the inner-circle (and other critical areas) was basically over after those first two weeks.

Sure, if new information developed, follow up questions would be asked. And there were the subsequent polygraphs. But I believe all leads had petered out after two weeks. Another clue: it seems no coincidence that Carla Baron began her readings with DZ and RG's family, and billywahoo shows up here at CTV, both on or about 5/5/05.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion:

KA (blog) indicated that PF was off work for perhaps two weeks after the disappearance. Based on CDT articles, LG was in PA for those same two weeks. I think TG was around then also, maybe even CG. Thorough or not, I believe the investigation of the inner-circle (and other critical areas) was basically over after those first two weeks.

Sure, if new information developed, follow up questions would be asked. And there were the subsequent polygraphs. But I believe all leads had petered out after two weeks. Another clue: it seems no coincidence that Carla Baron began her readings with DZ and RG's family, and billywahoo shows up here at CTV, both on or about 5/5/05.

Have you ever heard of a missing persons case where they wait a "few" month to do the polygraph tests? :shrug:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks

So if, in those early-on two weeks, the inner circle was basically investigated and cleared, why do you think there would have been the need for 'a' or 'another' polygraph?
Just curious...... My opinion:

There could have been new information and new questions, perhaps including those generated by months of discussion here. KA (blog) noted how those two polygraph tests seemed like "media events" - how unusual it was to announce them in advance, disclose the results publicly, and use the words "passed with flying colors" (in regard to PF's test).

In PF's case, it seemed important (as DZ said in the CDT, 7/19/05) to try to quell rumors that PF was involved...rumors DZ said had no factual basis. And in LG's case, the test was apparently given mostly to rule out contact in those first 5 months (CDT, 9/16/05).

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by day2day

Have you ever heard of a missing persons case where they wait a "few" month to do the polygraph tests? :shrug: No, but then I am the wrong person to ask. In this case (as I noted), perhaps they did not wait (at least in regard to PF). And there are reasons why they may have waited to test (or retest) PF and LG, and why they made those tests "media events" (see above). My opinion.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
No, but then I am the wrong person to ask. In this case (as I noted), perhaps they did not wait (at least in regard to PF). And there are reasons why they may have waited to test (or retest) PF and LG, and why they made those tests "media events" (see above). My opinion.

I guess I am having a little trouble following you here, S1, because in every missing persons case I can think of where polygraphs were administered to "inner circle" people, the tests were administered early on, and the results were made public as "media events" early on.

Here, with regard to PF, LE stance has been fairly consistent from day 1: no, she has never been a suspect, but maybe if RG turns up dead, we'll administer a poly, just to rule her out. Okay, we're administering a poly now, only because she heard "rumors" and wants to "clear" herself from those rumors (i.e., we aren't the ones who want to do this).

If they had had poly results in the first few weeks, why would they not have announced them publicly, saying we're ready to move on now, as was done with Marc Klass, the Runaway Bride, Mark Lunsford and his father, Ed Smart and his brother Tom, and on and on and on?

[J. J. in Phila]

PEF was never named as a "suspect" or as a "person of interest." I think they were interested and did look at her.

We have some things that indicate that.

1. The walk through of her house.

Who is the person most likely to know if there was something amiss in that house? PEF, it was her childhood home. Why would LE do the walk through, if the person most familiar with the house didn't spot anything? Because, they were checking to see if PEF cleaned up some evidence.

2. The intense questioning.

Why did the PSP do this "intense" questioning of PEF? Not to get information, most, if not all, of which she had given. They were looking for inconsistencies in her story.

3. PEF's time line.

I strongly suspect that PEF's time can be accounted for between 8:30 AM and 11:30 PM on 4/15/05, probably a little bit more on either end, to the point where she could not have gotten to Lewisburg and back again. Most of that can be checked from RFG's cell records and the office staff. I suspect that they did look at here whereabouts, and, according to TG, they did talk to her brother.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion:

I guess it is just me then. Billywahoo stated the obvious...that LE would know to (and 'he', like everyone else, would want them to) look at the inner-circle first. 'He' suggested that LE would never share the sensitive details of that part of the investigation, then (as an example) seemed to intimate that PF had already been given a polygraph test.

I would not believe for a moment that anyone close to RG would stand for anything less than a thorough investigation, starting with the inner-circle. I believe LE has thoroughly investigated that aspect and that there are two possible outcomes: that everyone in the inner-circle has been ruled out as having had any involvement, or that there is one (or more) who has not been ruled out. I believe billywahoo was pointing to the former, because if the latter were true, diverting public attention from the inner-circle would discourage people from coming forward with potentially relevant information.

PF had volunteered to have a polygraph right from the beginning but I thought it was given until 3 or 4 months later, as was LG's?

[UndertheRadar]

The original issue is getting lost here in the list of things showing that LE may have had an "interest" in PF.

The original issue is S1's belief that a polygraph may have been administered to PF prior to the poly which was administered in July.

If that were true, it would be a first time, to my knowledge, that LE withheld poly evidence that "cleared" an "inner circle" person, allowing that person several more months of twisting in the wind on the public stage before creating a "media-event poly" for which everyone on the inside could already anticipate results.

I have heard of polygraphs being taken without the public being told about them at the time, but only in cases where the subject did not fare well and lawyers wanted to keep the results out of the public eye. I do not think that is what S1 wants to imply here. I can think of no investigative benefit and no personal benefit whatsoever to PF that LE would have administered an early poly but withheld that information from the public. That's all I'm saying. JMO.

[J. J. in Phila]

If I understand S1 correctly, he's suggesting that LE knew or had a pretty good idea that the polygraphs would be negative. They administered them to remove suspicion from PEF and LG, in the public eye, without really revealing the details of the investigation.

S1 is free to correct me.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion:

I guess it is just me then. Billywahoo stated the obvious...that LE would know to (and 'he', like everyone else, would want them to) look at the inner-circle first. 'He' suggested that LE would never share the sensitive details of that part of the investigation, then (as an example) seemed to intimate that PF had already been given a polygraph test.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm far from sure that what what S1 thinks BW "intimated" is what S1 thinks happened.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
The original issue is getting lost here in the list of things showing that LE may have had an "interest" in PF.

The original issue is S1's belief that a polygraph may have been administered to PF prior to the poly which was administered in July.

If that were true, it would be a first time, to my knowledge, that LE withheld poly evidence that "cleared" an "inner circle" person, allowing that person several more months of twisting in the wind on the public stage before creating a "media-event poly" for which everyone on the inside could already anticipate results.

I have heard of polygraphs being taken without the public being told about them at the time, but only in cases where the subject did not fare well and lawyers wanted to keep the results out of the public eye. I do not think that is what S1 wants to imply here. I can think of no investigative benefit and no personal benefit whatsoever to PF that LE would have administered an early poly but withheld that information from the public. That's all I'm saying. JMO. My opinion: From what I gather, reading posts by "true crime buff" types here, there are a lot of "firsts" when comparing this investigation to others. An undisclosed polygraph test within the first 2 weeks would be just one more example, right? And according to some, polygraph tests are unreliable anyway. So would disclosure really do any good? It seems to me, based on the publicized polygraph, it would not (at least as evidenced in this limited audience).

I have no idea if there was an undisclosed polygraph test...maybe I am just trying too hard to read between the lines in billywahoo's posts. But, however uncomfortable or indelicate it was, I should think LE and RG's family (by all available means) would need to know if PF was a POI or not. From all appearances, she is not.

[Serendipitous1]

And if PF was not involved, where does that leave everyone (LE, family, colleagues, friends, peers, message board sleuthers)?...everyone except the person or persons who know what happened to Ray Gricar, whose eternal fate is inexorably sealed (not that I would not like to see a little earthly punishment). My opinion only.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


How do you know Gamble Mills was closed that Friday evening?

(I asked once before)

And I believe I answered it once before; the hours were listed as closing at 9:00 PM.

http://www.visitpa.com/visitpa/details.pa;jsessionid=C7FF9AE9049681A5D1B5B4E8789A 3F6F?id=234715

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


so it wasn't closed that evening - it closed after dinner

I think that's what I said. By the time PEF calls LE, it should have been closed for more than two hours. Either they close at 9:00 PM or they stop serving at 9:00 PM, either way, it's pretty clear that by 11:30 PM RFG isn't there.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Politigal


She could have called the Gamble Mill before 9pm just to check and see if he had gone there for dinner (without her) - especially since they went there every Friday.

That was my point when I originally posted about it.

Obviously, IMO, she knew he wouldn't be there & didn't phone them.

That's a good point, Pgal. Since the Gamble Mill was pretty much a standing Friday night thing for them, it would be logical to consider whether they'd gotten their signals crossed and maybe he expected her to meet him there. It was certainly worth checking.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


She could have called the Gamble Mill before 9pm just to check and see if he had gone there for dinner (without her) - especially since they went there every Friday.

That was my point when I originally posted about it.

Obviously, IMO, she knew he wouldn't be there & didn't phone them.

Basically, by the time she starts top worry, at night, it's 8:20 PM or so. The likelihood that he's there drops at that point. 6:30, 7:00 possibly, but that late it's kind of unlikely.

[UndertheRadar]

And there we have the excuses again.

The issue isn't whether she was at "top worry" or not.

The issue isn't whether it was "highly likely" that Gricar would have been there.

The issue is that the Gamble Mill would have been a logical place to check, and certainly more productive than calling her brother.

She surely didn't anticipate that RG would be at her brother's.

Which call had the greater likelihood of helping find RG?

[J. J. in Phila]

No, PEF calls her bother and basically asks if men in general get away for the evening. He says yes, so not wishing to seem like his parole officer, doesn't try to check up on him. She figures that even if RFG had a late dinner, he'd be back soon. He wasn't back soon.

[UndertheRadar]

No. Wait.

Before, you told the board that the "dozens and dozens" of messages got left on RG's phone between when it got dark and when she called LE.

Calling the Gamble Mill to see if they got their wires crossed and were supposed to meet there isn't acting like a parole officer.

But leaving dozens and dozens of messages, well . . . that's not helping to figure out if he's okay, if he's stranded someplace and needs help, if he's with a friend or a family member, if he's had an accident and been taken to the
hospital . . .

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
No, PEF calls her bother and basically asks if men in general get away for the evening. He says yes, so not wishing to seem like his parole officer, doesn't try to check up on him. She figures that even if RFG had a late dinner, he'd be back soon. He wasn't back soon.

How do YOU know what the heck she asked her brother?

So lets see we now have you 'in the closet' in the bedroom and now you are hangin out under the sofa listenin in on her phone calls?:shrug:

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day


How do YOU know what the heck she asked her brother?

So lets see we now have you 'in the closet' in the bedroom and now you are hangin out under the sofa listenin in on her phone calls?:shrug:

Don't forget under the desk at the car dealership when the Mini was purchased;
at the table when the paperwork for the vanity plates was filled out (by RG only) and signed (by PF); at the car detailer's between the last time PF rode in the Mini and when RG left those "Friday" fingerprints . . . there are so many examples!

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Don't forget under the desk at the car dealership when the Mini was purchased;
at the table when the paperwork for the vanity plates was filled out (by RG only) and signed (by PF); at the car detailer's between the last time PF rode in the Mini and when RG left those "Friday" fingerprints . . . there are so many examples!


Someone really gets around ya know...:D

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day



Someone really gets around ya know...:D

It's kinda like "Where's Waldo?" :D

You know, I'm also not buying this "she called her brother basically to ask if men in general get away for the evening" idea.

The woman was what, 42 years old? She'd been MARRIED before, and she'd lived with RG for anywhere from 18 months to three years, depending on what version you read.

I have no clue where that information is supposed to be coming from, Waldo or otherwise, but it seems awfully thin to me. A 40-something, previously married, living-with-a-man woman is certainly "experienced" enough with men to have some clue how they act without consulting her brother. Oh, and she grew up with all brothers, as well.

I'd like to see a link for that as the reason for the call to the brother.

[J. J. in Phila]

I've had several female friends that have called me and asked similar questions; sorry, but it doesn't seem too troubling.

And again, we have evidence that RFG drove the car to Lewisburg.

As to the actual subject of this tread, first, before we get to a "new" investigation, look at walkaway again.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


How many times during their relationship did RG previously NOT come home? That is what is common to 'this particular man'. He isn't just any man. He is HER live-in, so why would she be asking her brother what RG's pattern was?


In one cae my friend had been previously married and had been in a live-in relationship for more than 5 years.

It's not unusual.



Either it was so completely out of the ordinary, thus causing enough alarm to notify LE at, or it wasn't.


It becomes a question of time. Noon 4/15/05? No. 3:00 PM? No. 5:00 PM? A bit unusual, but not unexpected. Dark? Unusual, he's obviously not sight seeing, but not enough to call LE? Unusual enough for PEF to call her brother. 11:30 PM? Yes. It is a building worry.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


It's kinda like "Where's Waldo?" :D

You know, I'm also not buying this "she called her brother basically to ask if men in general get away for the evening" idea.

The woman was what, 42 years old? She'd been MARRIED before, and she'd lived with RG for anywhere from 18 months to three years, depending on what version you read.

I have no clue where that information is supposed to be coming from, Waldo or otherwise, but it seems awfully thin to me. A 40-something, previously married, living-with-a-man woman is certainly "experienced" enough with men to have some clue how they act without consulting her brother. Oh, and she grew up with all brothers, as well.

I'd like to see a link for that as the reason for the call to the brother.

IMO it is like pouring "salt in a wound" to hear people say that if she "asked" where Mr. Gricar was going on the morning of 4/15 it would have made her "look" like a parole officer...and now they want us to believe she called her brother to ask "if" men in general get away for an evening..

I might buy this whole thing if she was 18....

[UndertheRadar]

Where is the link to show that this was the reason PF called her brother?

No previously married, now "living with a man" woman needs to consult a brother to find out how men in general react. As Logic correctly points out, it is RG in particular and RG's patterns which are at issue, not men in general. Does PF not "know" what her soul mate's patterns are?

Without a link to show that this was PF's reason, this is nothing more than guesswork, and not very believable guesswork at that.

And there is NO evidence RG drove the Mini-Cooper to Lewisburg on Friday.

There is only evidence that at some point, he left his fingerprints in the car and at some point, he left his DNA on a water bottle that was in the car. Neither of these things is evidence that he drove the Mini-Cooper to Lewisburg on Friday.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day



I might buy this whole thing if she was 18....

I was going to say exactly the same thing. This is the stuff of teenage girls, not grown women. That's why I want to see a link, which has not been forthcoming.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


I was going to say exactly the same thing. This is the stuff of teenage girls, not grown women. That's why I want to see a link, which has not been forthcoming.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the link. I am pretty sure the next post will be a direction for YOU to search for it...:D

The phone call to her brother is one reason why i have always questioned PF. That and the dozens of messages left for a man who less than twelve hours before she didn't even BOTHER to ask where he was going..?!?!? Still not buying it..

Next...:read:

moooooo

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day


I wouldn't hold my breath on the link. I am pretty sure the next post will be a direction for YOU to search for it...:D

The phone call to her brother is one reason why i have always questioned PF. That and the dozens of messages left for a man who less than twelve hours before she didn't even BOTHER to ask where he was going..?!?!? Still not buying it..

Next...:read:

moooooo

Yep, not holding my breath. What we'll likely get, if anything, is some link with nothing whatsoever relevant. Been there, done that, seen the movie.

[J. J. in Phila]

They have, to some extent, been posted.

Here is the first part:

http://tinyurl.com/2844m2

.

Zaccagni begins: “He called [Fornicola] about 11:30 that morning and said, ‘Well, I’m on 192. I’m not going to make it home in time to take care of the dog.’ He says, ‘See you later.’” Fornicola recalls nothing usual about his tone.
“When he wasn’t home at dinnertime — she kind of expected him home by then. And when he wasn’t there, she thought, ‘What’s keeping him? Oh, he stopped to get something to eat.’



http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=gricar+mark+smith+vacation&fr=yfp-t-501&u=www.freetimes.com/modules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DNews%26file%3D article%26sid%3D2775&w=gricar+mark+smith+vacation+vacations&d=ErY43ernO5_n&icp=1&.intl=us

It was originally posted by P'gal.

I think it was the 4/29/05 article from the CDT, the same one that mentioned Welder. But you'll have to search that one out yourself.

What PEF was thinking has been asked and answered here.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


IMO it is like pouring "salt in a wound" to hear people say that if she "asked" where Mr. Gricar was going on the morning of 4/15 it would have made her "look" like a parole officer...and now they want us to believe she called her brother to ask "if" men in general get away for an evening..

I might buy this whole thing if she was 18....

RFG was taking the day off and liked to drive, which is what he was doing.

PEF was both secure enough, and knew RFG well enough to to ask.

If the call was faked, BTW, why didn't she say that RFG said, "I'm going out for a drive?"

PEF was not RFG's parole officer; this is also an indication that she's not the smothering woman some people have claimed.

[UndertheRadar]

Well, Day, I see we got a "two for the price of one" response.

A "go look it up yourself" and a link with absolutely no relevance to the issue being asked about.

This is the only reference to calling the brother that I have ever seen, and the only one I could still find, and then only in a post on the CTV board:

She went to the gym and returned home to find he still hadn't returned. She called her brother as darkness fell.

"I said, 'Maybe he just needed to get away. Don't worry yet,'" Tom Fornicola said.

Abundantly clear from the quote from TF that it comes from an interview with HIM, not with PF, and that he provides HIS offering to PF, not anything about her question to him or her stated reason for calling him. Nothing there indicates that she called to find out whether men in general needed an evening out, so if someone "knows" that information, we've got to ask, again, how someone "knows" that. Other than guessing or making it up, that is.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


I wouldn't hold my breath on the link. I am pretty sure the next post will be a direction for YOU to search for it...:D


Well if some posters would try, they would find it. Ironically, UTR has claimed she has a lot of articles on her computer, yet she can never seem to find them. I guess that is too much to expect from someone with a 155 IQ. Maybe she some "behind the scenes" information too?

Here is the link, but it won't go anyplace:

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/11474332.htm

[J. J. in Phila]

I did find a copy of it:

Although Fornicola knew Gricar wasn't planning to come to work when she spoke to him about 11:30 a.m. April 15, she felt something was wrong when he wasn't home at 5 p.m.

"But I thought, 'Oh, well. He's just been delayed,'" she said.

She went to the gym and returned home to find he still hadn't returned. She called her brother as darkness fell.

"I said, 'Maybe he just needed to get away. Don't worry yet,'" Tom Fornicola said.

But she continued to fret, calling Gricar's cell phone again and again.


http://boards.courttv.com/printthread.php?threadid=215636&perpage=40&pagenumber=25

From the answer, it was, it was something like, **Is it normal for men to take off for a day and not call.**

UTR, I fairly sure PEF wasn't asking for a recipe. Do you really need a 155 IQ to figure out, generally, what the question was?

[UndertheRadar]

Unfortunately we are unable to locate the page you have requested. This could be due to content on our site having expired, a broken link, an outdated bookmark, or a mistyped address. Please use the navigation provided on this page, or click here to visit our home page.

Exactly.

So how useful is a 403 error?

Then, you go and post what I have ALREADY posted on this thread and pointed out as a quote from TF, not from PF, which shows nothing about what PF asked, only what TF said.

[J. J. in Phila]

You asked for a "link", UTR. I posted a link to show that the original was not there. Surely someone with a 155 IQ can appreciate that this provides documentation of why a direct link can't be provided.

Basically, we have a general idea of the question. So we kind of know what PEF was thinking around 5:00 PM and 8:00-8:45 PM.

[UndertheRadar]

Let's look for just a minute at what Tom Fornicola said:

"I said, 'Maybe he just needed to get away. Don't worry yet,'" Tom Fornicola said.

Now if we're just going to GUESS at what PF said that elicited that response, let's make a list of some other possibilities:

*"Tom, Ray isn't home yet, and I'm getting worried."

*"Tom, Ray isn't home yet, and I don't know whether to be worried or mad at that louse for leaving me home alone on a Friday night."

*"Tom, Ray isn't home, and I think he might be out running around and cheating on me."

See? It's easy to make things up. Any one of those things could have gotten the response "Maybe he just needed to get away. Don't worry yet."

But it harms the search for the truth to "guess" at things and then assert the guesswork as if it were the truth. Unless you were sitting on the other end of the couch with Patty, listening in on the extension, or had her tell you in an email or phone conversation or face to face what she actually said to her brother, you don't know what she asked or why she asked it.

As for the link, JJ, I had long since beat you to the punch by posting the actual text of the only article that mentioned the call to the brother.

And as I suspected, it DIDN'T show what you said it did.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, all of those questions deal with the subject of PEF asking TF why he things RFG isn't home yet. They all express her concern about why RFG is not home.

[UndertheRadar]

Not ONE of them is "Tom, Ray isn't home yet and I'm calling to find out from you if men in general need an evening out," which was the assertion put on the board as the reason for her call.

The first just expresses her worry about Ray.

The second expresses her conflict between feeling worried about him and being ticked off that he's left her home alone.

The third expresses anxiety that he's cheating on her.

NONE of them asks TF for his view on whether men in general do X, Y, or Z. They just express PF's feelings, which is probably what PF did, assuming she made this call under the circumstances she described them.

Don't try to change things up now by saying you just said she expressed worry. That's not what you said.

[J. J. in Phila]

Ah, the question is directed at a man, and the answer will by it's very nature, give a male perspective.

Why answer it, "Maybe he just needed to get away," if the question isn't about why RFG isn't home. Certainly anyone with an IQ of 155 can understand that.

[UndertheRadar]

Waldo assumes there WAS a question.

As Cloudbuster accurately pointed out the other night, women often just want to express their feelings. Men interpret this as a directive to "fix" things.

My concern as far as these boards goes is this: from what we have recorded in TF's statement, many possible interpretations for what PF said when she initiated the call are possible.

Waldo has chosen to assert that PF called to ask, "Tom, do men in general need to get away for an evening?" as if this were the truth of what happened.

I, or anyone else, could just as easily assert that PF called to say, "Tom, I think RG is cheating on me again" as if this were the truth of what happened.

Waldo's version casts the situation one way; the other version casts the situation in a very different light. And either assertion fits the response that TF gave. But neither is KNOWN to be the truth. So why put one "out there" AS IF it were the truth of what happened? It's the same kind of guesswork that happens over and over again here, and it doesn't contribute to finding out the truth of the situation.

Interestingly enough, Waldo's version also makes PF sound like a blithering teenage idiot instead of a mature, fully grown woman. Talk about PF bashing!

[Serendipitous1]

My opinion:

I have no better idea than the rest of you what the RG/PF relationship was like...that year, month or last two days. The interview where PF related the call to her brother occurred one week after the disappearance. I can imagine she had been through a lot in that first week. So I cut her some slack just on that account.

I do not take "I must have left dozens of messages" literally. Nor do I sense panic. This is a woman with some LE background, in a relationship with a district attorney, in what seems to have been an evolving, unprecedented situation. RG is late coming home. He is not answering his cell phone or returning PF's calls. That alone (in a secure relationship, at least) would seem to preclude the possibility that RG was off doing something while intentionally making her worry.

I can well imagine her not calling around and not wanting to "needlessly" alarm the family at that point. But there had to come a time when she needed to alert the police, because RG was the DA. She sought her brother's advice "as darkness fell", and he said, "Don't worry yet." So she waited until 11:30 to call police.

I understand where some others are coming from. I myself might have called police earlier. And I would have called LG right afterwards. But I am not PF and I have no idea what personalities, relationships and protocols were in play. I do know though, that things are not always as they appear.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


RFG was taking the day off and liked to drive, which is what he was doing.

PEF was both secure enough, and knew RFG well enough to to ask.

If the call was faked, BTW, why didn't she say that RFG said, "I'm going out for a drive?"

PEF was not RFG's parole officer; this is also an indication that she's not the smothering woman some people have claimed.


No she isn't his PO and she doesn't IMO act like his SO either!!

Just because you ask your SO where he is going does NOT mean you are being his PO..it might have shown some of us she "cared" about the man...

And yet less than 12 hours later the panic sets in...WHY? Heck he could have been on his way to the bahamas for all she knew!

Yet after the panic set in..and she made dozenss of calls and then "the" call to le.. -what did she do?
We KNOW BG searched for Mr. Gricar ....still waiting for an answer when PF did her searching...:read:

as always ...jmho

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


No she isn't his PO and she doesn't IMO act like his SO either!!


Most men would be annoyed by a woman who insisted on knowing where he was every second. Also, he liked to drive for pleasure and not have a specific destination.


Just because you ask your SO where he is going does NOT mean you are being his PO..it might have shown some of us she "cared" about the man...


I think I've mentioned about how annoyed I was when my then SO called up and asked where I was. In the hospital visiting a friend who had bypass surgery.


And yet less than 12 hours later the panic sets in...WHY? Heck he could have been on his way to the bahamas for all she knew!


At that point, I would be worried about an accident.


We KNOW BG searched for Mr. Gricar ....still waiting for an answer when PF did her searching...:read:



That is more than a bit disingenuous. BG checked motels after the Mini was located. She didn't go running around Central PA trying to check every place where he might be.

[UndertheRadar]

There you go, diminishing BG's contributions again. She was, I believe, trying to get ready for a sabbatical, and she took two weeks out of her schedule to pound the pavement with her daughter, searching for a man she'd been divorced from for more than a decade. That showed real devotion and dedication, and there's no reason HER contributions should be diminished, especially not just to try to make PF look good. BG is to be admired. Legally, she owed RG nothing, but she gave from her heart.

As for your annoyance when your SO asked where you were, I'm not sure it's wise to judge anything about normal, healthy relationships by looking at the relationship of someone who by his own free admission hasn't sustained a normal, healthy relationship into a lasting commitment. Perhaps it's wiser to judge by listening to those who actually have managed to do that.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm not "diminishing BG's contributions," at all. I would hope that someone with a claimed 155 IQ would understand that.

BG went out after the Mini was found; she didn't go running all over Central PA, like some posters think PEF should have.

I should add that in my prior relationship, nothing like that happened; I didn't have a "parole officer," which is how I guess some posters regard as a "healthy" relationship.

I also know several long term couples that do not have the "parole officer/parolee" relationship.

[UndertheRadar]

Yes, you did try to diminish BG's contributions. Day pointed out that BG had searched for RG and said she was still waiting for an answer as to when PF did any searching. You tried to diminish what BG did by claiming she just checked a motels AFTER RG went missing and didn't run "all over Central PA" looking for him.

In addition to diminishing BG's contributions, you're mixing apples and oranges. Day was asking for ANY evidence that PF did ANY searching for RG at ANY time. She wasn't talking only about whether PF got in her car Friday night and went looking for RG when he was late getting home. You know perfectly well that BG wouldn't have been in a position to search on Friday night unless, of course, PF had phoned her, asked if BG had heard from RG, and then asked BG to help her go looking for him. BG wouldn't have known RG was even missing until SOMEONE bothered to inform her.

Once informed, she started looking. And she spent two weeks, at least, doing it.

Day simply wanted to know when PF did any such searches, at any time.

Got the answer?

[J. J. in Phila]

The only press reports I've seen were of BG looking at motels, with LG.

:no: No UTR, that is not "diminishing" her contribution. I think checking hotels was a good idea. She checked motels in the area around Lewisburg, after the Mini was found; that was wise. She didn't start searching State College on 4/16, so far as has been reported. I wouldn't expect BG to do anything that stupid; do you UTR?

We do know that PEF was in Lewisburg, on 4/17, according to Chief Dixon. Now, what she did there, was her presence needed by LE, I don't know.

We can see another acquaintance going to Lewisburg, JKA. She didn't search either, and didn't report helping in the next week. :shrug: Is it possible that she was needed elsewhere? I guess that is possible.

[UndertheRadar]

RG has been missing for 2 years, 3 months, and 17 days. I don't think PF has been needed "elsewhere" every one of those days. If that's the best answer you can give Day, then I guess you just don't know whether she's done any searching and are more concerned with making excuses for her in the event that she hasn't. I'll make note of that.

And no, of course I'm not suggesting BG did anything stupid. As has been abundantly clear in my posts, I have done nothing but praise BG's actions in the wake of her ex-husband's disappearance.

By the way, my "nearly photographic memory," such as it is, tells me that the article I remember reading indicated BG and LG went to every shop in Lewisburg, every motel, and places outside of Lewisburg as well.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I have not heard of PEF, BG, LG, TG or JKA going out searching now. :rolleyes: I don't expect them to.

I don't blame BG for not running around on 4/16/05, trying to check behind each tree in Central PA to see if RFG is there. I do not blame LG for going back to Seattle. I certainly consider the possibility that JKA might have been of more use to finding RFG by going back to Bellefonte on 4/17. At this point, there will be no use in this type of searching.

“My mom and I went to every single store in Lewisburg, and we even ventured out of town to the hotels,” Lara Gricar said. “We would bump into police there doing the same thing.”


http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=163&pid=1528&mode=threaded&show=&st=&

This is what they checked, but note that so did LE. I'd be interested in the range of what they checked, outside of Lewisburg.

Please note that this was after the Mini was found.

[UndertheRadar]

Where did you see me say the word now?

More than 830-odd days have passed since RG went missing. All Day has asked is this question: when did PF search for RG? On ANY of those days? Apparently you don't have an answer for that question. This is PF's "soul mate." Not KA's. Not anybody else's.

And you STILL don't get the difference between PF going out to search on Friday night--checking to see for herself whether she can find where RG might have been, perhaps stranded, perhaps injured and in need of her help--and BG searching once she's been notified RG is missing and once it's clear that RG and the Mini have been separated.

These would be searches of two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT NATURES, done from two entirely motivations. You're just not getting it, or you wouldn't keep underscoring that BG searched after the Mini was found. Of course, that's when she searched. PF could have made THAT kind of search as well. But that is separate and apart from the question of why PF didn't go looking on Friday night to see if she could find him when he might have needed her help stranded along the road some place.

[J. J. in Phila]

When you said, "2 years, 3 months, and 17 days." The time for a realistic personal search was within the first week; some things, like search the river could be delayed.

PEF might have "searched" in Lewisburg on 4/17, or she might have gone back and gone over everything in the house over the next two weeks to see if anything was missing or if she could find a clue; she also could have been dealing with LE all day, looking at possible destinations, reconstructing the events of the last month, or noting potent symptoms of an illness. Some of those things were reported in the press.

Did you ever consider that providing LE that information would have been more valuable in finding RFG than walking along the Susquehanna or knocking on a door?:rolleyes:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
Where did you see me say the word now?

More than 830-odd days have passed since RG went missing. All Day has asked is this question: when did PF search for RG? On ANY of those days? Apparently you don't have an answer for that question. This is PF's "soul mate." Not KA's. Not anybody else's.

And you STILL don't get the difference between PF going out to search on Friday night--checking to see for herself whether she can find where RG might have been, perhaps stranded, perhaps injured and in need of her help--and BG searching once she's been notified RG is missing and once it's clear that RG and the Mini have been separated.

These would be searches of two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT NATURES, done from two entirely motivations. You're just not getting it, or you wouldn't keep underscoring that BG searched after the Mini was found. Of course, that's when she searched. PF could have made THAT kind of search as well. But that is separate and apart from the question of why PF didn't go looking on Friday night to see if she could find him when he might have needed her help stranded along the road some place.

Are you from the Centre County area? Do you have any idea how lonely and dangerous those roads that RG was traveling on, are after dark? You can see nothing at that time of night. Even in the daytime when my husband and I went to Lewisburg, the area of the mounain, if he made it that far, was very overgrown with mountain laurel and pine trees, very steep drop offs with not much of a guide rail. I couldn't even see over in some of the areas. To go at night would have been dangerous for anyone to be doing.

PF should not have been out looking for him at that time of night. JMO

[UndertheRadar]

You haven't read the full stories of many missing persons' cases, have you?

Do you have any idea how many trips to San Francisco Kristen Modafferi's parents have made in the decade+ that she has been missing, searching for her and for clues to her disappearance?

Have you read Robert Cooke's journal of all the searches done for his daughter Rachel?

Start there. Two weeks. Bullpuckey.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, LE has searched Lewisburg. Since you've claimed to have worked "behind the scenes," would you care to suggest where else to search?

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Are you from the Centre County area? Do you have any idea how lonely and dangerous those roads that RG was traveling on, are after dark? You can see nothing at that time of night. Even in the daytime when my husband and I went to Lewisburg, the area of the mounain, if he made it that far, was very overgrown with mountain laurel and pine trees, very steep drop offs with not much of a guide rail. I couldn't even see over in some of the areas. To go at night would have been dangerous for anyone to be doing.

PF should not have been out looking for him at that time of night. JMO

PF called her brother, did she not? She has other male friends, does she not?

She didn't need to be walking trails to drive along 192 and see if RG's car was stranded along side of the road after an accident in which he'd been injured.

She didn't need to be dealing with steep drop offs and mountain laurel to see if maybe he'd pulled over because he wasn't feeling well and perhaps had had a heart attack at the wheel.

Those are the things I would have been very worried about, had I been calling and having the phone go straight to voice mail.

That's why I would have called everyone I could think of to see if anyone had heard from him, why I would have checked hospitals, and if I couldn't locate him that way, why I would have found a way to go looking. My S.O. is someone very much like RG, very reliable, and if he didn't show up when I expected him to, it would be so unusual, I would KNOW something was wrong, because it would be entirely out of character for him to let me worry like that.

PF said she expected a note. We've never straightened that whole thing out, as to why or when, given that the phone call would have replaced the note. But if we take her at her word, she expected SOMETHING from RG that would have let her know what he was doing. She didn't have anything to that effect. She would have to know SOMETHING was wrong.

What danger would she be in if she and her brother or a male friend drove out 192 and looked for RG's car? I'm sorry, but I frankly don't see any. I've been on that road at night with a man at the wheel of the car and was never in any danger.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Are you from the Centre County area? Do you have any idea how lonely and dangerous those roads that RG was traveling on, are after dark? You can see nothing at that time of night.

SJ, UTR has intimated that she is from Centre County and that she worked "behind the scenes" in RFG's disappearance.

If that is the case, you can see the agenda.

I learned to drive on roads in Cambria and Westmoreland Counties and drove the roads in Centre County many times, at night (though not 192). It is foolish to expect to see a car that has run off one of those rural roads at night.

Couple that with the fact that it is more than 40 miles of road and that nobody had (or has) any idea if RFG turned off at some point and it becomes something well beyond foolishness.

[J. J. in Phila]

Or, she called the police and see if he had been taken to the hospital or that a car was found. Oh, wait, that's what she did.

[UndertheRadar]

Not foolish at all. If there were a chance I'd find my "soul mate" slumped over the wheel of his vehicle after a heart attack or injured after an accident, I would make the drive. I could be making other calls, including one to LE, while I did so. In RG's case, LE didn't even begin to take his disappearance with any real seriousness until the morning, if Zaccagni's account of it is to be believed. Other than put out the APB, they didn't really do anything Friday night, did they?

Well, I take it that the answer to Day's question, "Did PF do any searches?" is either "I don't know" or "No."

And I take it you haven't done any of the thorough reading on other missing persons' cases to learn about the kinds of searches that can be done.

Pretty much means this conversation is done.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
Not foolish at all. If there were a chance I'd find my "soul mate" slumped over the wheel of his vehicle after a heart attack or injured after an accident, I would make the drive. I could be making other calls, including one to LE, while I did so. In RG's case, LE didn't even begin to take his disappearance with any real seriousness until the morning, if Zaccagni's account of it is to be believed. Other than put out the APB, they didn't really do anything Friday night, did they?

Well, I take it that the answer to Day's question, "Did PF do any searches?" is either "I don't know" or "No."

And I take it you haven't done any of the thorough reading on other missing persons' cases to learn about the kinds of searches that can be done.

Pretty much means this conversation is done.

If you are "behind the scenes" what did PF do the couple weeks she was off work? Could she have been in Lewisburg at that time or on Rt 192? Even the family knew how she felt about RG so did they take her down there to look?

I haven't answered your posts because it doesn't matter what I put on here it is questioned. It is easier for me to just move on and not say anymore.

I will say that the arguments that were going on back and forth about why PF didn't ask RG where he was going is why I put the one post on. Your post more or less jogged it in my head and I had to write it while it was there. sorry I didn't go back and bring other quotes to the front but I wasn't saying you were saying it only that RG should have also said something about where he was going, when he would come back and if the dinner was still on.

My spouse and I have never had that problem, we leave notes, or tell each other in the morning or at lunch if we will be going somewhere and what time we will be back.

[J. J. in Phila]

Gee, UTR, surely someone with a an IQ of 155 can see that PEF searching in Lewisburg might have been the most useful think that she could have been doing on 4/17/05, and her "search" may have been in another location.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I have no idea if there was an undisclosed polygraph test...maybe I am just trying too hard to read between the lines in billywahoo's posts. But, however uncomfortable or indelicate it was, I should think LE and RG's family (by all available means) would need to know if PF was a POI or not. From all appearances, she is not. No, there have been no undisclosed polys that I am aware of.

Above, in one of UTR's comments, in terms of common sense, I think she might have hit the nail on the head. I haven't seen anyone really flesh it out, but in terms of advancing the case, it makes perfect sense to me.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
No, there have been no undisclosed polys that I am aware of.

Above, in one of UTR's comments, in terms of common sense, I think she might have hit the nail on the head. I haven't seen anyone really flesh it out, but in terms of advancing the case, it makes perfect sense to me. Do you believe Patricia Elizabeth Fornicola is a POI, or not?

[day2day]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
No, there have been no undisclosed polys that I am aware of.

Above, in one of UTR's comments, in terms of common sense, I think she might have hit the nail on the head. I haven't seen anyone really flesh it out, but in terms of advancing the case, it makes perfect sense to me.

IMO UTR has hit "many" nails on the head! Just which nail are you talkin bout TonyG?

:D

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Do you believe Patricia Elizabeth Fornicola is a POI, or not? Stated like a true, Yes/No polygraph question. Well done.

No.

I'm sure I've mentioned it, but my FBI buddy says that I'm the worst candidate for a poly. His psychiatrist ex-wife said I was a terrible candidate for talk therapy. My therapist said I was a terrible candidate for talk therapy and said I should buy a dog. Go figure...

:D

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Do you believe Patricia Elizabeth Fornicola is a POI, or not?

IMO, she was, in April 2005.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


IMO, she was, in April 2005.

IMO she still is in May 2007...

jmo...:D

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Stated like a true, Yes/No polygraph question. Well done.

No.

I'm sure I've mentioned it, but my FBI buddy says that I'm the worst candidate for a poly. His psychiatrist ex-wife said I was a terrible candidate for talk therapy. My therapist said I was a terrible candidate for talk therapy and said I should buy a dog. Go figure...

:D Well then...we do have something in common besides "Ying Yang" beer. What would you like fleshed out, now that you have everyone's attention? PM me if nothing else...please!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


IMO she still is in May 2007...

jmo...:D

Only with those people that don't look at evidence.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Stated like a true, Yes/No polygraph question. Well done.

No.

I'm sure I've mentioned it, but my FBI buddy says that I'm the worst candidate for a poly. His psychiatrist ex-wife said I was a terrible candidate for talk therapy. My therapist said I was a terrible candidate for talk therapy and said I should buy a dog. Go figure...

:D

Should we assume your dog told you to go get a cat instead?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

Should we assume your dog told you to go get a cat instead? Low blow? Explain please...for us simple folk.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Low blow? Explain please...for us simple folk.

Just yanking TG's chain, from a dog person's perspective. The canine tends to be an open, earnest sort with his emotions. The cat, far more inscrutable.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Only with those people that don't look at evidence.

NO it would be for the people who have studied this case and its evidence and lack of ! And for those of us who KNOW what "family" means...:D

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


NO it would be for the people who have studied this case and its evidence and lack of ! And for those of us who KNOW what "family" means...:D

Well, that obviously isn't you, then. :rolleyes:

[UndertheRadar]

And just who, besides JJ, would ever make that claim that Day hasn't studied this case or the evidence in it?

True, she wasn't hiding under the desk at the car dealership or sitting on the couch when PF called her brother, but then we can't ALL be Waldo. :santa:

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
And just who, besides JJ, would ever make that claim that Day hasn't studied this case or the evidence in it?

True, she wasn't hiding under the desk at the car dealership or sitting on the couch when PF called her brother, but then we can't ALL be Waldo. :santa:


IMO the ONLY reason JJ is here is monetary gain. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out his true motive here..and we all know his motive is not to find Mr. Gricar...

And no ..I wasn't under the desk or on the couch or in their bedroom ...i am beginning to believe that was JJ's job!:santa:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day



IMO the ONLY reason JJ is here is monetary gain. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out his true motive here..and we all know his motive is not to find Mr. Gricar...



You are wrong as wrong can be, and frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself. :flamemad:

Several posters here know exactly who I am and were told that they are free to google. TG months back has said the same thing, and yes, he knows who I am.

From this post, you are possibly several hundred pay grades below a rocket scientist.


And no ..I wasn't under the desk or on the couch or in their bedroom ...i am beginning to believe that was JJ's job!:santa: [/B]

It's obvious that you are here to Patty Bash and are not willing to look at the evidence.

[day2day]

For the record JJ. I don't care who you are, who you know, what you do ...it is also equally unimportant who i am , who i know, what i do...

Because this isn't about YOU or me..it is supposed to be about Mr. Gricar ...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


Do you think PF has never been a POI just because of the poly results?

P'gal, TG answered this question:

"Do you believe Patricia Elizabeth Fornicola is a POI, or not?"

Note the "is".

At some point in time, I suspect that PEF was looked at. Maybe not an official designation, but they did look at her. They did things like look at her movements on 4/15/05, check the cell tower, do forensics on the car, search the house, and thenfinally the polygraph test. If PEF was involved there should be a trail of evidence pointing to her; also, there should be gaps in PEF's day, which would have raised questions. There we no questions to be raised.

That seemed to end well before the polygraph.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day
For the record JJ. I don't care who you are, who you know, what you do ...it is also equally unimportant who i am , who i know, what i do...

Because this isn't about YOU or me..it is supposed to be about Mr. Gricar ...

Then why did you bring it up? I neither seek the spotlight nor shun it. JKA mentioned me prominently in her blog, and you made the most recent (and most ridiculous) statement.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


I guess Tony left because I forgot to bring more Scotch....:tongue:

But I'd prefer his response.

thx

I'm just noting he answered that she was not a POI on August 2-3, 2007. He didn't say anything about if she was on 4/25/05.

From LE's actions, I'm guessing that they at least gave her a long hard look, if not the official designation.

[UndertheRadar]

This is from a June 10, 2005 CDT article:

Zaccagni said Fornicola and other family and friends are not considered suspects. “She did an intensive interview in Milton,” Zaccagni said of Fornicola. “She said nothing that was suspicious, that raised any red flags with the profiler.” And Fornicola has offered to take a polygraph test, Zaccagni said. “If Ray is found and he’s a victim of a homicide, we might ask her to take one,” Zaccagni said. Fornicola is not surprised by authorities’ initial interest in her as a suspect.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3784.html

It sounds as if PF was considered "not a suspect" after the interview with the profiler on 4/17/05.

In an AP article by Armas, Zaccagni says PF was never considered a suspect:

Fornicola has not been considered a suspect in the case either but also passed a polygraph test in July.

Zaccagni said the tests were only given recently because neither Fornicola nor Lara Gricar were ever considered suspects.

"Had there been something where there was a strong suspicion, yeah, we would have done it a lot earlier," Zaccagni said.

http://polygraphs.co.uk/News.asp?ZZIS_InformationID=4777

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't know it that was the 4/17 or a later interview with the profiler; the story was filed on 6/10/05.

I have the impression (from TG) that there were numerous interviews.

There was also the search of the house sometime after 4/17/05.

Note the words "strong suspicion," as well. There hasn't been, as we know now, any evidence pointing to PEF or LG. That doesn't mean that they didn't look to see if there was.

[UndertheRadar]

My understanding is that the profiler conducted "numerous interviews," meaning that the profiler interviewed numerous family members and friends of Gricar, NOT that he conducted multiple interviews of any one person, including PF.

If Tony has information that corrects my understanding, I would appreciate hearing that, but all the articles I have read point to the profiler conducting numerous interviews of various people, not multiple interviews of the same person.

The 6/10/05 article's header is "Police pursue Michigan lead in Gricar case," and that subject is its primary focus. The information about PF's status as potential suspect was more or less a footnote at the end of the story, in the portion discussing what police were (and weren't) pursuing as far as other leads. Given the typical inverted pyramid of a news story, it's clear this was not "new" news.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the quote:


tonyGricar
Member

Registered: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 181


// The BPD had nothing to do, outside of requesting them, with the polygraphs. If anyone recalls, it was the Secret Service who administered the tests. Note of trivia: The SS trains the FBI in this, fwiw. For those who actually question whether the adminstration was a mere fabrication, no they were not. I was there.
In terms of overall formal questioning, besides many hours of questions by the PSP (not to mention BPD), a few hours of polys to each where administered.


Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
Old Post 06-15-2007 03:46 AM

I take the last line as referring to multiple questioning sessions.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal


I guess Tony left because I forgot to bring more Scotch....:tongue:

But I'd prefer his response.

thx Sorry, was out tempting the fates of the open sea. Or as much as my lake equates to the open sea.

To be honest, the term "Person of Interest" has always had a negative connotation to it. Was she ever a POI? I'm sure in some ways, but I never heard that label. All I know is that, in terms of questioning, they started close and worked their way out. But no, I've never heard that label given to anyone with regard to this case.

Lord knows I've meant many Interesting People via this, for better or worse.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
If Tony has information that corrects my understanding, I would appreciate hearing that, but all the articles I have read point to the profiler conducting numerous interviews of various people, not multiple interviews of the same person.
You are correct, UTR. Multiple interviewees, but not multiple interviews of any person to my knowledge. The shortest was probably 1.5 hours or so, to multiple hours for some. I've never heard from, or spoken to, the PSP profiler since that process. I don't think anyone interviewed has.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I take the last line as referring to multiple questioning sessions. Multiple interviews, from separate investigative units.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
You are correct, UTR. Multiple interviewees, but not multiple interviews of any person to my knowledge. The shortest was probably 1.5 hours or so, to multiple hours for some. I've never heard from, or spoken to, the PSP profiler since that process. I don't think anyone interviewed has.

Thanks, Tony. One article said that Det. Z couldn't remember the profiler's name and that BPD had never received a written report from the profiler's interviews, although there had been telephone contact, so I'm not surprised there hasn't been any follow up given that.

By the way, on "Person of Interest," I think it's just the latest politically correct terminology, which came into favor following the fiasco of naming Richard Jewell a "suspect" in the Atlanta bombings. I even heard a car in one case referred to as a "vehicle of interest," so I guess we now need to protect the sensibilities of your basic Toyota Corolla.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Thanks, Tony. One article said that Det. Z couldn't remember the profiler's name and that BPD had never received a written report from the profiler's interviews, although there had been telephone contact, so I'm not surprised there hasn't been any follow up given that.

By the way, on "Person of Interest," I think it's just the latest politically correct terminologyI barely remember the guys name myself. I think he had a batman figure in his office, though. That's gotta count for somethin'...

I do believe that BPD finally received a report from PSP, but I'm not sure to what level of detail.

And I hate POI because it is too PC and therefore creates an inherent negative image or stereotype. Ahh, the irony of PC.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal


I'm curious why the process seemed to stop with that profiler though. Did he have that much clout or what? That's always been a mystery to me. The almost blanket-like declaration that he must have committed suicide has always bothered me. It did then, it does now. None of us that were intereviewed at the time*, to my knowledge, thought that Ray killed himself, so I'm not sure what the profiler built up from our collective recollections and insights.

*Interviewee's thoughts on what happened to him have likely been shaped by the time lapse, so I don't want to speak for anyone today.

[sherrijean981]

Since this is a "new investigation" thread, I thought maybe if LE, BPD, PSP, FBI, CIA or any investigators, KA or any of RG's co-workers could check this link out.

See if any of these men and women had any connection to RG, might have been doing the "slow burn" or was acting for someone else, and was released before RG disappeared and checked the day they have absconded. Maybe a link to RG?

http://www.pbpp.state.pa.us/absconders/site/default.asp

I also wonder why RG is not still listed as missing on this link?

http://www.pacrimestoppers.org/2005_list.htm

[sherrijean981]

I wonder why RG was not listed on this linking as a missing person?

http://www.pacrimestoppers.org/2005_list.htm

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
I wonder why RG was not listed on this linking as a missing person?

http://www.pacrimestoppers.org/2005_list.htm

There was only one listed and LE suspects foul play. That might make the difference?

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


There was only one listed and LE suspects foul play. That might make the difference?

So are you saying-LE believes that there wasn't foul play involved? That sort of bothers me-seeing they spent SO much time with Ms. Baron and she certainly didn't think Mr. Gricar got out of the warehouse alive. I wonder what leads them to believe he just "walked away"?!?!??

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


So are you saying-LE believes that there wasn't foul play involved? That sort of bothers me-seeing they spent SO much time with Ms. Baron and she certainly didn't think Mr. Gricar got out of the warehouse alive. I wonder what leads them to believe he just "walked away"?!?!??

Baron isn't evidence (and was wrong on some key points).

There is no evidence of foul play. That does not mean that it was a walkaway, only that there is no evidence that it was foul play.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day


So are you saying-LE believes that there wasn't foul play involved? That sort of bothers me-seeing they spent SO much time with Ms. Baron and she certainly didn't think Mr. Gricar got out of the warehouse alive. I wonder what leads them to believe he just "walked away"?!?!??

Just looking around the pacrimestoppers website a bit, it didn't look to me as if they maintain a true database of missing people in Pennsylvania. Mostly, they've got unsolved homicides and wanted criminals, including a list of convicts they're looking for from what I saw on a quick look see. So I'm not totally surprised not to see Gricar on that particular website. Others, like NCMA, I am surprised to see him not listed.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Baron isn't evidence (and was wrong on some key points).

There is no evidence of foul play. That does not mean that it was a walkaway, only that there is no evidence that it was foul play.

Well that is where my "hinky meter" goes off. IF Ms. Baron was wrong on some "key points" LE should have known that on day1.
Why o why did they spend SO much time with her if she was wrong on the "key points"...

(goes back to the confused corner and waits on the key points Ms. Baron was wrong about)

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Just looking around the pacrimstoppers website a bit, it didn't look to me as if they maintain a true database of missing people in Pennsylvania. Mostly, they've got unsolved homicides and wanted criminals, including a list of convicts they're looking for from what I saw on a quick look see. So I'm not totally surprised not to see Gricar on that particular website. Others, like NCMA, I am surprised to see him not listed.

Thanks UTR!! Makes much sense to me. I believe that is why when a person "vanishes" it is good to reach out to people who can do these things for them.. (like make sure they are listed on all these sites)

I remember when Jessica Lunsford was taken-people from all over the US made flyers (yep jj they did) and distributed them in their communities...

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day


Well that is where my "hinky meter" goes off. IF Ms. Baron was wrong on some "key points" LE should have known that on day1.
Why o why did they spend SO much time with her if she was wrong on the "key points"...

(goes back to the confused corner and waits on the key points Ms. Baron was wrong about)

You probably already know this Day, but both Sylvia Browne and James Van Praagh told Shawn Hornbeck's parents that Shawn was dead. Each gave a completely different description of the circumstances of his "death," and of course, both were wrong. Just listening tonight to the news of the trapped miners and remembering Sylvia's major gaffe in a previous mining tragedy . . . .

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day


Thanks UTR!! Makes much sense to me. I believe that is why when a person "vanishes" it is good to reach out to people who can do these things for them.. (like make sure they are listed on all these sites)

I remember when Jessica Lunsford was taken-people from all over the US made flyers (yep jj they did) and distributed them in their communities...

Totally agree about the flyers, Day. I think they played a major role in Elizabeth and Shasta eventually being brought home. They keep the community aware that a family still wants and needs this person home, and that could eventually "shake loose" some information from someone who has it. If nothing else, it keeps community focus on the missing person so that there's less likely to be apathy, knowing that the family is still actively campaigning to try to find their missing loved one.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Totally agree about the flyers, Day. I think they played a major role in Elizabeth and Shasta eventually being brought home. They keep the community aware that a family still wants and needs this person home, and that could eventually "shake loose" some information from someone who has it. If nothing else, it keeps community focus on the missing person so that there's less likely to be apathy, knowing that the family is still actively campaigning to try to find their missing loved one.

I agree I really wish that Mr. Gricar had a flyer out there...you just never know how helpful it could be!

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


You probably already know this Day, but both Sylvia Browne and James Van Praagh told Shawn Hornbeck's parents that Shawn was dead. Each gave a completely different description of the circumstances of his "death," and of course, both were wrong. Just listening tonight to the news of the trapped miners and remembering Sylvia's major gaffe in a previous mining tragedy . . . .


Very sad about the miners -my thoughts and prayers are with their families tonight-...

I don't know how some of these people like Browne and Van Praagh live with themselves after doing these things.
I have always thought LE spending so much time with CB(and ignoring the OBVIOUS-interviewing co-workers, friends and neighbors was a HUGE mistake!

Surely Det Z would have known that her visions were "off"..yet he even taped the show with her? And seemed even "excited" at some of her "visions"...

( i really wonder if he was paid for his time) ...

JMO ...

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


Well that is where my "hinky meter" goes off. IF Ms. Baron was wrong on some "key points" LE should have known that on day1.
Why o why did they spend SO much time with her if she was wrong on the "key points"...

(goes back to the confused corner and waits on the key points Ms. Baron was wrong about)

This has been noted by several posters, including BW. Baron suspected someone watching the front door of the Court House; he used the rear door.

S1 noted that Baron mentioned on the radio that the hard drive would be found off the bridge in Milton. It wasn't.

Most of what she "found" was reported in the press and a good researcher could dig it up.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


I agree I really wish that Mr. Gricar had a flyer out there...you just never know how helpful it could be!

Rarely, if ever, do they help beyond the first stages of the investigation. They are good, and somethings the only, way to get the information out initially, or keep it, initially, in the public eye. With the initial media coverage, they had limited value.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day



Very sad about the miners -my thoughts and prayers are with their families tonight-...

I don't know how some of these people like Browne and Van Praagh live with themselves after doing these things.
I have always thought LE spending so much time with CB(and ignoring the OBVIOUS-interviewing co-workers, friends and neighbors was a HUGE mistake!

Surely Det Z would have known that her visions were "off"..yet he even taped the show with her? And seemed even "excited" at some of her "visions"...

( i really wonder if he was paid for his time) ...

JMO ...

I guess what bothers me most about his time spent with CB is exactly what you've said, things left undone while time was devoted to that. There were sure some stones he could have been turning instead.

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, you should really email Kelly Jolkowski and get more information about the value of awareness campaigns. Not only is she the parent of a missing son, but she has also had more than 100 hours of training in the subject of missing persons' cases, runs a missing persons' website, and directs an organization devoted to helping families of missing persons. I think she would beg to differ with you on the value of awareness campaigns.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I'm not diminishing the value of an awareness campaign. I'm diminishing the value of flyers at this point.

[UndertheRadar]

Flyers are part of an awareness campaign.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'll repeat.

I'm diminishing the value of flyers at this point.

You seem to think that RFG vanished yesterday.

[UndertheRadar]

Two questions, JJ:

1) Can you direct me to the flyer that was prominently displayed early on in the Gricar case, since you believe this is the only time flyers are useful? I would like to see the flyer that was used in the RG case.

2) I would also like to compare your credentials in missing persons' cases to someone like KJ's, so that I can assess your claims that flyers "at this point" have diminished value and "rarely help" beyond the initial stages of the investigation.

KJ must feel differently. Here's a link to her son's "six years missing" flyer:

http://projectjason.org/18wheel/Jason6YearPoster.pdf

And it's not just something she does for her own son's case. Project Jason's 18-Wheel Angels Campaign helps distribute posters of missing people all over the country. So I'm really interested in seeing how your background and training stacks up to hers.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day


Well that is where my "hinky meter" goes off. IF Ms. Baron was wrong on some "key points" LE should have known that on day1.
Why o why did they spend SO much time with her if she was wrong on the "key points"...

(goes back to the confused corner and waits on the key points Ms. Baron was wrong about)

The way DZ talked C Baron was right on with some things they knew that weren't put in the news. It goes both ways.

[J. J. in Phila]

Are you planning to post your credentials as an expert on scent trailing and tracking, UTR?

Now, I did look at her site, and I'm familiar with poster campaigns in my area, which are unfortunately common. Many times, there is scant mention on the news. I don't claim any expertize, except looking at the effectiveness of these in the missing persons cases I've seen or read about.

As I've said previously, how effective has this been? Now, how much does this really help locate Jason Jolkowski, at this point? Her son has not been found; there are no new clues to what happened. That may break Mrs. Jolkowski's heart, but it is unfortunately true.

Now, early on, on the week of 4/18/05, maybe, maybe, putting up flyers in the Susquehanna Valley might have gotten another witness or so. And we all know how good witnesses are.

I do question the effectiveness of flyers in general, and in this case in specific. This case was well reported and was considered the lead news story of the year it happened in Centre County. And people in the area do remember the case; I talked to an old friend from the Johnstown are about three weeks ago and he not only volunteered the name, (not just the position), but had followed it. The people remember, there just is currently no new information.

I took a look at the Omaha World Herald, looking for a blog on Jason Jolkowski. None that I could find. It might have been there earlier, but right now, there is greater local coverage of Gricar case than in the Jolkowski case.

In some cases, a woman (or man) being kidnapped and held, it might be very helpful. I seriously doubt that a 59 year old lawyer is going to someone's sex slave. There are also cases where there is little press coverage, and it could help there. This is not the situation in the RFG case.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


At what point? What is different today than what was found the first week? The investigation is like he disappeared yesterday, after all.



Actually, we know more than we did (and I'd assume LE does to), than we did on 4/18. We know something about the disposition of the laptop, we have forensics on the car.

A body could have turned up. That there is no body is an important clue.

Lastly, memories fade, college students leave the area. In the first weeks maybe a flyer in the area might have produced more witnesses.



Couple of questions ....

1. Why wasn't typical procedure followed, with no one near until the dogs and trainers were brought in?

Protect the Point Last Seen (PLS)


One factor may have been that the Mini was found in a heavily traffic area. It wasn't isolated.



2. Why were the Union County SAR teams unnecessary?



Was it? I thought the PSP brought in the dogs?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


The way DZ talked C Baron was right on with some things they knew that weren't put in the news. It goes both ways.

There was one thing that generally was not reported, a report that RFG was seen near Shikellamy State Park. Yet:



day2day
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Supporting Shasta and Steve!
Posts: 2495


According to Mapquest it is 9.23 miles from Lewisburg..in Shikellamy State Park


Interesting...my Dad says...that they say ..Early on in the investigation they had a report that Mr. Gricar was possibly seen there..

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
Old Post 06-22-2006 12:26 AM

It's possible that she heard the rumor as well.

[sherrijean981]

I found this article as searching. Others opinions on how an investigation should be done.

http://www.kiafn.com/KIAFN%20Spring%202007%20Brochure%20mail%20version. pdf


Quote:
"
“Murder in a Small Town: The Social Autopsy as a
Change Agent in Domestic Violence”
Over a recent five year period, Centre County, PA, a small,
rural area with a population of about 135,000, had 16
homicides. Eleven or 70% of these homicides were identified
as being related to domestic violence. Centre County has an
active Fatality Review Committee which is part of the Centre
County Domestic and Sexual Violence Task Force. This
multidiscipline Fatality Review Committee uses the process of
social autopsy to reconstruct the events preceding a death and
examines the social structures and policies or lack of such to
provide a broader explanation for the death. This process of
social autopsy has created a tremendous environment for
change.
The goal of this presentation is to provide sufficient
background knowledge of the social autopsy process so that
participants can go home and begin the process. A secondary
goal is to encourage the use of a process that has worked to
create an environment for success and change. The presentation
will cover a brief history of the Fatality Review Committee and
several cases reviewed, the process of a social autopsy for a
homicide related to domestic violence, a brief summation of
what worked and what didn’t work, and several of the
initiatives that have resulted from the social autopsy process
that will have implications beyond Centre County." Quote

[UndertheRadar]

So JJ, you still can't point me to the flyer that was posted for RG early in the case?

And I take it you can't be very familiar with projectjason.org, or you would be more aware of the statistics showing cases with resolution in the 18-wheel angel campaigns.

As for posting my credentials re canine issues, no one has questioned them, largely because it's been clear I have the background and credibility when I discuss such issues and I put up valid scientific sources to back up what I am saying. I asked for yours in this situation because, as in so many instances, you have a habit of throwing out grandiose generalities that contradict what those more knowledgeable would say on the issue.

The bottom line here is how very curious it is that you want to argue that publicity and searching in the RG case are both futile and impractical. It's the same defeatist thinking you used saying PF shouldn't have bothered calling friends or the Gamble Mill to see if RG was there on Friday night. The point is that you do it, because of the chance that it might pay off.

No organized volunteer groups were ever allowed to search for RG from what I have read; only the group under the auspices of the Center County Sheriff's office did any adjunct searching. There was never a command center set up and no call for citizens' groups was ever put out to the community.

No flyers were ever put out around the community (Center County or Lewisburg) as far as I can determine. I've asked you to point me to one, but you've not done so.

No vigils have ever been held for RG.

No button or ribbon campaigns have ever been instituted.

I trust John Walsh and Kelly Jolkowski's knowledge of this issue and believe they are both correct in their position that family and community have to join forces with LE in the efforts to unravel the mystery of what happened to a missing person.

[sherrijean981]

I found this article on the Women's Resource Center on the upcoming National Victim's Rights Week for 2005. How ironic that it is the week of Ray Gricar's disappearance. It also has an article on the Victim's Advocate in his office, recent to the position.

The title says a lot in the search for Ray Gricar but why has he been left down, when he did so much for this organization and the victim's who were serviced by the Women's Resource Center? Why are the people from here not doing anything or voiceing their opinions in the CDT? Stand up for him like he did you.

I also wonder if his having victim's working in his office might not have something to do with his disappearance. Keeping them close keeps the perpetrator close too.

JUSTICE ISN'T SERVED UNTIL CRIME VICTIM'S ARE
National Victim's Rights Week - April 10-16, 2005

http://www.pccd.state.pa.us/pccd/lib/pccd/pubs/pathways/june2005newsletter.pdf

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I have questioned your credentials and I believe S1 said that he felt the dog handlers would know what he's doing.

I looked at the first three pages of the 18 Wheels website: http://projectjason.org/dpforum/forum_display.php?id=8

Of those people found alive, and it's listed how they were found, not one was because a non LE person saw a flyer. Generally, LE spotted them. I was also surprised by the number that walked away of their own free will.

Now, if you have statistics, UTR, please post a link.

[sherrijean981]

I found the story about one of the other unsolved mysteries in Centre County. This one was years before Ray came to Centre County.

I was working in a popular deli/restaurant in State College at the time. I remember the fear when walking down the streets of State College wondering if the person was passing me or coming in to the restauant.

I have wondered if any of the people who have gone missing in Centre County have been the victim of the same person, a serial killer? Keeps coming back because he/she is getting away with it?

BETSY AARDSMA MURDER IN PATEE LIBRARY

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:ROyz5pxP0AwJ:www.statecollegemagazi ne.com/home_pages/Betsy/aardsma.html+centre+county+murders&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=238&gl=us

Maybe the words in the article meant LE should be watching out for him?

Quote:
" In light of the coldness of the case, perhaps the most troubling detail in Whalen’s 1994 discovery were the last two words in the message:(((( I’m back. ))))
News of Whalen’s finding was kept relatively quiet. Although the police were summoned, the lonely shrine and ominous message were soon forgotten. Then, in 1999, another message was found" Quote

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
UTR, I have questioned your credentials and I believe S1 said that he felt the dog handlers would know what he's doing.



JJ, you questioning my credentials is a joke, given the many, many thoroughly erroneous claims you've made about dog scent issues and given the fact that you would question ANYTHING I said simply because I was the one saying it.

Since I never disputed the dog handlers' possible theory as one possible theory, I don't know what your point is regarding S1's opinion of the dog handlers. And while not disparaging S1 in any way, what does S1's opinion mean in regard to that issue? S1 has admitted not being a dog person in any way, and his/her opinion is worth what anyone else's opinion is worth. It's the science that counts, and that's what I have documented. Unfortunately, much of that documentation has--interestingly--been removed from these boards.

It continues to interest me that you are so opposed to a publicity campaign, yet you have the unmitigated gall to criticize KA for not doing enough (in your mind) to generate interest on the part of the community in RG's disappearance.

This hypocrisy strikes me as incredibly interesting--in your mind, KA should have done more, but other publicity would be pointless.

I continue to ask this question: why should the community care about RG's disappearance if it cannot feel the persuasive presence of those who were closest to RG asking for help in finding him?

[Serendipitous1]

Thanks gstickley. An editorial in the CDT:
http://www.centredaily.com/329/story/170512.html

My opinion: One term Mike...OTM...OTM...didily DA ta DA!

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, you ignorance never fails to astound me.

I have been critical of JKA for not being effective on several levels.

First, you, and possibly JKA, start with a false premise, that people in Centre County have to be reminded that RFG is missing. They don't need a "reminder" from you, or her or me. As pointed out, "General Fransisco Franco is still dead" - type jokes were circulating last year; that is how much into the Centre County culture RFG has become.

People may know, but they have lost interest, unfortunately; another site had a Ray Gricar thread until a few weeks ago, but now it's gone. :( The key is to interest people in finding RFG, not to reminding them he's missing.

I criticize JKA strongly for not being effective in stirring that interest (except here). What could she have done.

1. Make us know who RFG is and make us feel her loss. This would involve:

A. Describing in detail RFG the person. It may not have been possible, because RFG was said to be "hard to get to know." (I think the quote was from Judge Brown.) JKA has a very good personal bio of herself on her campaign website. It might have been ghostwritten or she might find it easier to write about herself, but something much closer that her web pages.

B. Describe the service, and the brilliance of RFG, the attorney, and let the County know what they lost when RFG disappeared. It's not as compelling as the personal RFG (though I would have loved it), but it could have helped.

2. Give earth shattering new information. While I would say, as some critics have, that there was "nothing new," there was not that much new.

We found out about the titling of the Mini, and that seems to have been cleared up, and about the door slams. We have some mention of the Wiley case, but her recollection is vague as to be worthless. Likewise, if she could have described how RFG was "distraught," that would paint a better picture of the events of that week prior to RFG's disappearance.

I believe she focused more about what posters here were doing than on what that last week was like.


3. Make an argument that this could have been murder and that this has to be, at least, ruled out. There are two sub arguments:

A. That murdering a sitting DA, possibly due to an official action or decision made by RFG, strikes at the foundations of justice in Centre County.

B. Make an argument, as "gstickley" did here, that if it can happen to RFG, it can happen to them. It would be a matter of self protection.

Grab the people's attention.

J Karen Arnold failed on those counts. I don't think I've ever said she didn't do enough, but she could have been a lot more effective with fewer words.

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, your reading comprehension problems never fail to astound me:

I continue to ask this question: why should the community care about RG's disappearance if it cannot feel the persuasive presence of those who were closest to RG asking for help in finding him?

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
JJ, your reading comprehension problems never fail to astound me:

I continue to ask this question: why should the community care about RG's disappearance if it cannot feel the persuasive presence of those who were closest to RG asking for help in finding him?

Are you sure it is a comprehension problem..or is it just the way things are sposed to be here?!:shrug:

jmo

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Just looking around the pacrimestoppers website a bit, it didn't look to me as if they maintain a true database of missing people in Pennsylvania. Mostly, they've got unsolved homicides and wanted criminals, including a list of convicts they're looking for from what I saw on a quick look see. So I'm not totally surprised not to see Gricar on that particular website. Others, like NCMA, I am surprised to see him not listed.

The men on parole and took off *absconded* are the ones I thought to look into. Had RG ever put any of those men in prison? Are any from the Central Pa area? Were they in a prison with someone RG put away? Were they in the area at time of disappearance? Do they live in the area? Just some questions LE should be checking out on the ones who were from the Central PA area and have now flown the coop? Ones who disappeared the same time RG did?

[UndertheRadar]

By the way, JJ, publicity campaigns, including the use of flyers, most certainly does help in solving cases of the missing.

NCMEC says that one in six missing kids is recovered as a direct result of a photograph and that "poster distributions have been instrumental in the recovery of over 500 children who may otherwise not have been located."

http://gis2.esri.com/library/userconf/proc01/professional/papers/pap274/p274.htm

MCMEC partnered with ChoicePoint's Adam Program boasts recovery of over 800 missing kids. ChoicePoint Adam's program "uses fax technology to distribute missing child posters to police, news media, schools, businesses, medical centers and other recipients within a specific geographic search area, such as a state, ZIP code, area code or a combined search area near a city and ZIP code. ADAM examines a database of all possible recipients and finds just those within a designated mile radius of that city."

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=95293&p=irol-newsArticle_print&ID=964572&highlight=

Finger Lakes Ride for Missing Children in 2006 "distributed 725,534 posters of missing children and assisted in the recovery of 1,703 children through poster distribution and case assistance."

http://www.fingerlakesride.org/


NCMA has a "Print Poster" option available for each missing adult in its database.

The Sund/Carrington Foundation has public awareness as one of 7 main points for the "Long Term Search":

4. Promote public awareness of the case.
• Publicize new information, with approval from your law enforcement contact
• Keep the media interested and involved. Ask NCMEC to develop an age-progressed picture if applicable
• Consider offering a reward.
• Contact NCMEC, the State missing person’s clearinghouses and other missing
person’s organizations across the country. Ask for assistance in distributing fliers and find out what services are available to assist with long-term searches.
• Solicit help from political figures in publicizing your case, engaging resources and getting permission to display missing person’s posters in public places.

Testimonials from the Klaas Foundation show the difference public awareness can make in people's lives:

Your flyers were a "miracle" because she knows if it wasn't for our flyer Sarah wouldn't have been found. There are not enough words to thank you for all our help.
-Mother

My daughter would not have been found if it wasn't for your help and the flyers you sent to me&Thank you, I felt you were the only ones who cared.
- Mother

I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. You don't know how much the flyers are helping.
- Father

Thank you so much. It was the flyers that led mom to call the Detective. You are the only ones who helped.
- Father

You were a great help. The posters were a great help. I gave a stack to the homeless people and they ended up bringing my daughter home.
- Mother

I want to say thank you very much for all your help. When I called about my son, you promptly called me back and told me about other places to call, suggested that I bring in a picture to get flyers out and helped me with questions I did not know the answers to. I never in my wildest dreams thought that I would ever need to call upon a missing children's center, but I am forever grateful for all your wonderful help. My son was found a week later, healthy and well. I thank you and the Polly Klaas Foundation very, very much.
- Mother

http://www.pollyklaas.org/about/testimonials.html

Last, let's not forget it takes only one person's awareness to make or break a case. In the Laci Peterson case, I distinctly remember an interview with Amber Frey in which she said she was unaware that Laci Peterson was a missing person. This, despite Laci's case having been huge national news with constant coverage. Amber simply didn't watch much TV other than what her little girl watched and she wasn't a newspaper reader. It was a friend of hers who clued her in to Laci's disappearance and to the fact that Amber's Scott might well be the husband of the missing woman from Modesto.

Amber wound up being a key player in Scott Peterson's conviction, and without her, the case could have crumbled.

If a flyer reaches that one important person, it is well worth the campaign. Much better than throwing up one's hands and saying, "Oh, this probably won't do any good, so no point in trying."

[J. J. in Phila]

From JKA?

I continue to ask this question: why should the community care about RG's disappearance if it cannot feel the persuasive presence of those who were closest to RG asking for help in finding him?

UTR, this is the problem again. Those closest to RFG have continued to press forward. As pointed out, there was huge press coverage, the family still speaks out, through TG. It is hard to keep up public interest when the story is "Ray Gricar is still missing."

JKA had a chance to say to the community: **Here is why you should care. Here is this great guy (or great attorney), that I'm going to tell you about. Here is new information on the case, that I'll tell you about. Here is why we should make sure it wasn't murder, at least.***

JKA failed at all three.

It's sad that she wasn't effective. :(

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I'm going to point this out again. Children are different. There are cases where they are kidnapped for molestation purposes. Unless you really that, RFG a 59 year old, male attorney is being drug around the country as a sex slave, they are not relevant to this case. If RFG were a 20 year old female student at PSU, it might be. He isn't.

[UndertheRadar]

From KA? No, JJ. I copied and pasted a part of my own post you had clearly not comprehended when you responded to it.

And you still don't understand it.

Tell me, in what ways have these suggestions by the Sund/Carrington Foundation been fulfilled for the "Long Term Search"?


• Keep the media interested and involved.
• Contact NCMEC, the State missing person’s clearinghouses and other missing person’s organizations across the country. Ask for assistance in distributing fliers and find out what services are available to assist with long-term searches.
• Solicit help from political figures in publicizing your case, engaging resources and getting permission to display missing person’s posters in public places.

What, specifically, has been done to keep the media interested and involved? Was there a two-year anniversary vigil which local and national media could cover? At the two year anniversary, did anyone contact the national media, or was it a matter of waiting for the national media to make contact? Have any specific awareness campaigns been started, like the recent one Jennifer Kesse's family started with the playing cards for prison, which the national media would be likely to cover? Is Ray listed on the NCMA? Is his poster available for download on that site or anywhere else? What political figures have been contacted to help publicize Ray's case? What has been done to emphasize the impact of Ray's disappearance on the community?

None of this is KA's venue. It all belongs to those closest to Ray Gricar. As Day has said, if RG were my "one," I would be out making sure all this was done and more.

And I'm still wondering where I can find a copy of the poster that was distributed in RG's case EARLY ON, you know, when you claimed it would have had some value.

[UndertheRadar]

Do you honestly think the majority of missing children are "being drug" around the country as sex slaves? You don't know much about missing children's cases, do you?

And the NCMA is for adults. There's a good reason they have posters available for each missing person. It's the same as I pointed out in Amber Frey's situation. It takes only one person getting the right information to make a difference.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, you posted regarding "500 missing children" and "800 missing children." Are yo telling me now that that you don't know the difference between children and adults?

And please note that I didn't use the term "majority." I believe the Hornbeck case involved molestation; I'm also looking at cases where the person was found alive. Finding remains deals with a search, or a random chance.

those relatively few cases where a child is taken to be passed off I think a lot of the "stranger abductions" in missing children cases deals with molestation, though a lot of missing children deals with situations where it a noncustodial relative taking the child. There are those rare cases where the child is kidnapped to serve as a surrogate child.

Now, obviously, these things don't apply in RFG's case.

The media is interested and involved, but it needs news; there has been scant news. Flyers? Again, where? And will that be more effective than the press that is out there? Political figures? Come of it UTR, they have been involved from day one!!! That is because of RFG's position.

You do understand that the family, LE, the government cannot order media coverage. The "Missing White Woman Syndrome" occurs. I obviously think that this is far more important than Jenifer Wilbanks, but I don't run a network news division.

[UndertheRadar]

Yep, JJ, you can sit back and moan about "White women's syndrome" or you can do as this wonderful Black teenage girl did when another Black teen was senselessly killed. At, what, 17 or 18, Keona felt that Black missing children and murders of Black children didn't receive enough attention, so SHE WENT OUT AND MADE WAVES, bless her little heart.

http://www.geocities.com/forcynteria/media.html

You'll notice she even helped get AMW to take notice of Cynteria's case.

She even started discussion forums and publicity for missing and murdered children of all races:

http://geocities.com/forcynteria/

So moan, moan, gripe, gripe. Or take action. And God bless people like Keona.

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, I don't have to moan about it. TG noted it and so did the Collegian.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/08/08-08-05tdc/08-08-05dops-edit-01.asp

Oh, and so did other quaint little stundent newspaper, the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/09/AR2005060901729.html

You pattern is now, blame PEF, blame the family.

It disgusting!

:flamemad:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley
I'm glad all you people sleep in in the mornings; it will give me time to catch up on my score card.

Things we can't discuss:
PF & family
RG & family
KA (unless we put her down)
LE (they've 'done a good job, Brownie' & "left no stone unturned')
Publicity about RG (everyone everywhere is aware he's missing)
Ideas about locating RG
Searching for RG

Things we can do:
Post theories so they can be red-inked to clear up all posters' misinformation. That's going to solve the mystery.


Neither posting false information or coming up with massive CTV conspiracy theory, that can be disproven easily will help the case. (BTW, PB does know who I am and I can be googled, if there is any real question. JKA was given the same opportunity, and declined.) "Gstickley" why do you defend posting false information?

Publicity will help, but don't confuse real publicity with posting flyers. They have their place, and might have helped in the first month, but that first month ended more than two years ago. And don't JKA's web pages with publicity.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by gstickley
I'm glad all you people sleep in in the mornings; it will give me time to catch up on my score card.

Things we can't discuss:
PF & family
RG & family
KA (unless we put her down)
LE (they've 'done a good job, Brownie' & "left no stone unturned')
Publicity about RG (everyone everywhere is aware he's missing)
Ideas about locating RG
Searching for RG

Things we can do:
Post theories so they can be red-inked to clear up all posters' misinformation. That's going to solve the mystery.

(And, after all, LE is reading this forum to get ideas on things to investigate; humm, guess by now they've interviewed all RG's friends & co-workers, since we've suggested it a gazillion times)

Scorecard is getting pretty heavy on the "can't discuss" list, isn't it, GS?

Just don't understand the anti-publicity thing, when Sund/Carrington, John Walsh, Marc Klaas, Kelly Jolkowski, et al all believe in the power of such. And that little Keona--what a gal!

[sherrijean981]

Why don't we get in touch with his family, friends, the Women's Resource Center (he gave a big part of his pay and time there), and the DA's in the other counties that had wanted more done? There have to be more people who want to do something. No one has even tried, have they? Why not get in touch with Pete Bosak too?

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by logicworks
If it's a 'missing person' case, as we have been told, why hasn't it been handled as such? Anyone who doesn't know what to do has simply to go online to other missing person cases to see how to proceed. Simple. Why hasn't it been done in this case?

Strategies recommended by crimestoppers/mostwanted for a missing adult:

MISSING ADULT CHECKLIST

Double check with friends, family, work, and school that the person is missing and not just on a vacation or on a leave of absence.

Contact the local, county, or state law enforcement agency to make a missing person report (you do not have to contact all three if one opens an investigation).

Ask the law enforcement agency to open a missing person investigation.

Obtain a case number or copy of the report, if possible.

Ask for the detective or investigators name and extension number or direct line.

Ask the police department to enter the missing person’s information into the National Crime Information Center’s (NCIC) database and obtain the NIC number, if possible (starts with “M” followed by nine numeric digits, M-123456789).

Provide as much information as possible on the person’s behavior and whereabouts prior to the disappearance. It is very important to honest with the investigators.

• Did the person take any personal belongings like money, wallet, or purse?
• Check for a letter or note that may have been left.
• Did the missing person say they would be traveling elsewhere or meeting anyone?

Notify the National Center for Missing Adults at 1-800-690-FIND.

Notify your state clearinghouse, if they register missing adults (National Center for Missing Adults can assist you with finding the phone number).

Notify other non-profit organizations that assist with missing adults.

Circulate missing person posters of the missing adult except in locations prohibited by city codes. Ask the managers or owners of convenient stores, malls, businesses, and other high traffic areas to post a flyer of the missing person.

Contact hospitals, jails, and medical examiners in the area and give them a flyer.

Ask for additional referrals or support group information to find out if what worked for other families may work for you.

Find out your state’s laws on victim’s rights because you may be entitled to certain privileges as the family member of a missing loved one.

Notify the law enforcement agency of any tips, leads, or if the missing person is located.

Notify the clearinghouses and non-profit organizations of any updates or if the missing person is located.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:HSfF3mCcJhsJ:crimestoppersmostwante d.com/pdf/mpchecklist.pdf+checklist+missing+persons+case&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

[J. J. in Phila]

With the possible exception of contacting the National Center for Missing Adults, those things were done, by LE, and the family, early on.

[UndertheRadar]

So, you can provide the board with a copy of the flyer that was posted in convenience stores, malls, businesses, and other high traffic areas? Of the one that was given to hospitals, jails, and medical examiners in the area? And you can tell us about organizations (Sund/Carrington or some similar organization) which were notified? (I'm not talking about any website which picked up the information on its own from media reports. Was any help actively recruited from missing persons' organizations?)

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
With the possible exception of contacting the National Center for Missing Adults, those things were done, by LE, and the family, early on.

Were these things done? I don't remember seeing any flyers or posters in the areas of Lewisburg, Milton, Bellefonte, Pleasant Gap or Centre Hall or Mifflin County when in the areas.

Also notice you have to be in a zip code area that allows you to post flyers.

Quote
"Notify other non-profit organizations that assist with missing adults.

Circulate missing person posters of the missing adult except in locations prohibited by city codes. Ask the managers or owners of convenient stores, malls, businesses, and other high traffic areas to post a flyer of the missing person.

Contact hospitals, jails, and medical examiners in the area and give them a flyer.

Ask for additional referrals or support group information to find out if what worked for other families may work for you."

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by sherrijean981




Also notice you have to be in a zip code area that allows you to post flyers.

Quote

Circulate missing person posters of the missing adult except in locations prohibited by city codes.

JMO, SJ, but I don't think that means zip codes. I think it means city codes, as in ordinances. Some locations prohibit posting flyers.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981
[B]

Were these things done? I don't remember seeing any flyers or posters in the areas of Lewisburg, Milton, Bellefonte, Pleasant Gap or Centre Hall or Mifflin County when in the areas.



The things that go on the flyers were out to LE and the press on Saturday 4/16. I can remember Chief Weaver even holding up a photo of the car at the first press conference and I think it was released to the press at that time.

The hospital were checked due to the possibility of RFG having a health problem, amnesia, or checking himself in for a psychiatic problem. That was all reported in the CDT Forum.

They did this one step better; the got RFG's photo on every television station and newspaper in Central PA, and had national coverage by 4/18/05 (when I heard about it). Getting this level of coverage, so early, is the dream of every missing person's loved ones.

[UndertheRadar]

Yep, I bet it was the dream of Laci Peterson's family to have the kind of local AND national TV and print news coverage that Laci's disappearance had, too.

Trouble was, a key person who had important information regarding the case didn't watch TV or read the newspaper.

As we saw with Amber Frey, reaching a single individual with information about a case can make or break what happens in the pursuit of justice.

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


JMO, SJ, but I don't think that means zip codes. I think it means city codes, as in ordinances. Some locations prohibit posting flyers.

While i was visiting a few (non missing people forums) a few days ago- I noticed small BANNERS in peoples posts with pics of missing people and numbers to call if you happen to see them.

So I guess you and I and a few others arent the ONLY ones who think it is EVER too late to get the word out about a missing person. :shrug:

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, what makes you think that someone that doesn't watch TV and read a newspaper will even glance at a flyer?

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day


While i was visiting a few (non missing people forums) a few days ago- I noticed small BANNERS in peoples posts with pics of missing people and numbers to call if you happen to see them.

So I guess you and I and a few others arent the ONLY ones who think it is EVER too late to get the word out about a missing person. :shrug:

I've seen the same thing on totally unrelated forums as well, Day. And I've got to tell you, I was SO moved by the website by this teenager in Florida, the link that I posted last night. She has worked so hard to get out the word about kids who otherwise aren't getting as much media attention, and she's been proactive rather than sitting around whining about some "syndrome." I just don't understand the "This probably wouldn't do any good" line of thinking we keep seeing here.

[UndertheRadar]

More excuses, JJ.

In Amber's particular case, she said she didn't watch news on TV but watched cartoons with her little girl. Now if she's in the local 7/11 buying a Slushee for her little one and there's a poster of Laci prominently displayed at the counter, it's not as if she's a brain dead dolt who isn't going to see it.

Just keep making excuses for why programs suggested by every successful and legitimate missing persons' organization would be useless in the Bible according to JJ. I'm sure they know nothing. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

D2D, please tell us how many and what the looked like?

[day2day]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


I've seen the same thing on totally unrelated forums as well, Day. And I've got to tell you, I was SO moved by the website by this teenager in Florida, the link that I posted last night. She has worked so hard to get out the word about kids who otherwise aren't getting as much media attention, and she's been proactive rather than sitting around whining about some "syndrome." I just don't understand the "This probably wouldn't do any good" line of thinking we keep seeing here.
IMO that is where the "angels walk among us" comes from!! Lots of hard work and dedication put into this !!
It nearly floored me when I saw it last night. Pretty great idea-i think! ...IMO if a person isn't part of the solution they are part of the problem..and I just happen to be pretty handy at making banners ..so when I get my Daddy home from the hospital-it is on my to-do list! I will of course post it and make it available for anyone here who would like to use it!

:seeya:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


JMO, SJ, but I don't think that means zip codes. I think it means city codes, as in ordinances. Some locations prohibit posting flyers.

Sorry, you are right. I should know all about those nasty city codes.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
D2D, please tell us how many and what the looked like?

Here is an example J.J.
http://www.forensicart.org/banners.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


Here is an example J.J.
http://www.forensicart.org/banners.html

D2D, I asked:

D2D, please tell us how many and what the looked like?

I think you've given me the answer of the effectiveness of these things. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Actually, UTR, you've just illistrated my point. They did distritte thousands of posters.

http://www.lacipeterson.com/poster.html

Flyers have some uses in some situations. The RFG case is not one of them, at this point.

[day2day]

I saw ONE JJ. It happened to be a revolving banner - Kara Kopetsky is the name that I clicked on. And after FINDING her pic on the banner -i did a little searching about her and FOUND this
http://www.myspace.com/findkarakopetsky
Something else IMO that someone who "loved" Mr. Gricar could do to help bring awareness and to seek help from the public.

JMO-...
of course i'm pretty sure you will say people don't browse myspace either...:)

[UndertheRadar]

JJ, once again you're asking the wrong question. This is as silly as the time you asked Logic if she could "name all the cars" she saw in a given time period traveling on a given roadway. That wasn't the point then, regarding whether someone might have seen the Mini on 192. And the point now isn't whether Day can recite chapter and verse of the various missing banners she saw.

The point, where DAY is concerned, would be what images and information are now encoded in her brain so that if she saw something useful, she could go back and double-check those banners and then report information to LE. Reporting information isn't a closed-book test.

More to the point, those banners might reach people in the area where "still alive" missing people are (such as in the case of Elizabeth Smart or Shasta Groene) or where information about deceased missing persons is known, and one of those banners might reach just one person who could help unravel the mystery. That is all it takes, reaching just one person with the right information.

I have no clue why anyone would argue against taking such a step. Paper is cheap, I've never heard of anyone charging money to allow posting a flyer, and with campaigns like the 18-wheel angels, even the gas money is incorporated into trips that are already being made.

And, oh, I can tell you in the last few days I have seen a banner for a nice looking young man named Ryan, probably late teens, brown hair, crew cut, missing out of Texas, and a pretty young woman, probably sixteen or so, brown hair, no bangs, cut chin length, dark eyes, missing out of Colorado. I think I'd be likely to recognize either one of them. I think I'd be likely to recognize Kristen Modafferi, Rachel Cooke, or Kristen Smart if I saw them, even though they've been missing for quite a long time. Kristen Modafferi's mouth is quite distinctive. I know their faces and body types well enough from studying their posters and other photos that I would certainly have enough to report a tip, even if I were wrong. And they are not the only ones among the missing I could do that for. I've gotten very interested in Amos' Mortier's case, and of course Skip Zelaya, among others, including a lot of little ones. Diamond and Tionda Bradley have always tugged at my heart . . . some of us are here because we actually care about the missing.

[UndertheRadar]

Yep, JJ, thousands of flyers distributed "in their neighborhoods and at work."

You do realize, don't you, that Amber Frey didn't live anywhere NEAR where Laci went missing? She was in Fresno, nearly a hundred miles away from Laci's neighborhood. How many of the flyers do you think wound up being posted in Fresno?

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by day2day
I saw ONE JJ. It happened to be a revolving banner - Kara Kopetsky is the name that I clicked on. And after FINDING her pic on the banner -i did a little searching about her and FOUND this
http://www.myspace.com/findkarakopetsky
Something else IMO that someone who "loved" Mr. Gricar could do to help bring awareness and to seek help from the public.

JMO-...
of course i'm pretty sure you will say people don't browse myspace either...:)

I know about Kara, Day! She went missing some time before Kelsey Smith did, and in the same general area. There was a lot of discussion as to whether the two disappearances could be linked. A very pretty young woman, and I have been praying that her disappearance is NOT linked to Kelsey's, since it would probably mean the worst for Kara as well.

And no, nobody ever browses myspace. :D

[J. J. in Phila]

UTR, you have just illustrated my point again. Flyers only are effective if the subject, like LP or RFG was in the area.


I'm fairly certain RFG is not in Lewisburg or Bellefonte. While I can suggestion where you can post a flyer, it won't do any good, certainly at this point.

Your claims are now providing evidence of flyers are an utterly totally ridiculous idea at this point.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks
Bottom line: It's either a missing person case or it's not.
We are told it is, therefore there are many things that have NOT been done that need to be done. It is NEVER too late to search for clues, tips, evidence if the missing person has NOT been found. We are told there is NO clue as to what happened to him.


Some things volunteers cannot do, except make suggestions.