A New Investigation

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Surprisingly, yes.

I believe that there was a several day lapse between the sighting in Lewisburg, and the sighting in Wilkes-Barre. RFG could have acquired a suit, or even bought one prior to leaving.

Now, LE is looking for a middle aged man, non smoker, wearing a fleece and jeans. RFG adopts the persona of someone else, with an excuse for being on the road, like a sales rep. He wears the suit and smokes cigarettes. . Interesting points by all on the various Wilkes theories.

Also, the Wilkes-Barre "sighting" was on the following Monday, 2 days after the car was found.

[tonyGricar]

It seems we've now had our 2nd poster pick up their ball and go home. So we've now had Politigal and Cinderella request to have their Gricar board posts deleted? Kinda kills a lot of context over time, no?

Must be the KA-CTV Conspiracy Theory...

[Politigal]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
It seems we've now had our 2nd poster pick up their ball and go home. So we've now had Politigal and Cinderella request to have their Gricar board posts deleted? Kinda kills a lot of context over time, no?

Must be the KA-CTV Conspiracy Theory...

I'd like to know *WHO* gave you this information,

and exactly why you feel it's any of your business?

Coldwater - care to explain???

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar I believe they actually were looking for a sample from the maternal side of Ray's family. I think it was the maternal side. Something to do with mitochondrial dna and a more usable sample from the maternal side.

I believe that, around the first year anniversary, LE announced that they were going to look at mitochondrial DNA.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Politigal


I'd like to know *WHO* gave you this information,

and exactly why you feel it's any of your business?

Coldwater - care to explain??? Uhhh, I don't recall you posting anything that was an infraction of the TOS, you're other board's posts are still out there, so that leaves....?

Any single person here would have pointed out the same thing. I just happened to be going to your PF Redux thread, which had a new post, and all of a sudden it went nowhere.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Uhhh, I don't recall you posting anything that was an infraction of the TOS, you're other board's posts are still out there, so that leaves....?

Any single person here would have pointed out the same thing. I just happened to be going to your PF Redux thread, which had a new post, and all of a sudden it went nowhere. I noticed it too...not very difficult to figure what happened, since 20+ threads suddenly disappeared (oh, the humanity) and Politigal is still a registered member. Same thing happened the other day with Cinderella. My opinion.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Interesting points by all on the various Wilkes theories.

Also, the Wilkes-Barre "sighting" was on the following Monday, 2 days after the car was found.

I doesn't factor into my odds on this being walk away, but it is interesting. If there was evidence that RFG left Lewisburg on his own, the Wilkes-Barre sighting would be the first thing I'd want to focus on.

It's a bit stronger than any other post 4/15/05 sighting, IMO, because:

1. Two people saw the same thing.

2. It was more than a brief sighting, like seeing RFG drive past, or walking past him on the street, "waiting" for someone.

The key question is, if this is a walkaway, how did RFG get out of Lewisburg?

The answers I can find are:

A. He bought a car (possibly under an assumed name, or a straw purchase by a third party). There may be a record.

B. He had someone pick him up.

The pool of people whom RFG would trust to pick him up, or make a straw purchase, and keep quiet about it would be exceptionally limited, IMO.

Family, and I think all you Ohio Gricars and LG are accounted for in that time. :) You're also not local.

Friends, only three are known, but two have not been checked out. (PEF is the third.)

Co-workers? Other than PEF, there have been none checked out. There is at least one that has been a bit suspicious.

I think if those things/people were checked out, with a negative result, the probability of either murder or suicide would increase.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Politigal


I'd like to know *WHO* gave you this information,

and exactly why you feel it's any of your business?

Coldwater - care to explain???

I think maybe the most important question is WHY Pgal felt the need to do this...
Pgal you have offered SO much to this forum...
IMO there are some out there that really don't want to know the truth...


I'm here pgal if you need to talk..


:read:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day


I think maybe the most important question is WHY Pgal felt the need to do this...
Pgal you have offered SO much to this forum...
IMO there are some out there that really don't want to know the truth...


I'm here pgal if you need to talk..


:read:

Why couldn't she just stop posting for a few days and leave her posts alone?? I felt the same way with Cindi, that it was a punishment to all of us for something one person might have said. We have all been on the receiving end and we give it a rest for a while but we still come back. It can't be because some of us don't agree with her choice of who did it because I have disagreed from the beginning.

gstickley are you still here? You questioned about the PFA on the one thread, and I thought you would have known that, having worked with LE in your state. Do they call it something different there?

[day2day]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Why couldn't she just stop posting for a few days and leave her posts alone?? I felt the same way with Cindi, that it was a punishment to all of us for something one person might have said. We have all been on the receiving end and we give it a rest for a while but we still come back. It can't be because some of us don't agree with her choice of who did it because I have disagreed from the beginning.

gstickley are you still here? You questioned about the PFA on the one thread, and I thought you would have known that, having worked with LE in your state. Do they call it something different there?

It is so sad because we ALL lose when this happens...I missed what went on but it must have been terrible for her to have her posts removed.

Now I don't have anything to catch up on :(

[tonyGricar]

Terrible? Here we go...

You can get an idea by reading my posts, which have some of her quoted material in them.

Actually, pages 13-15 of this thread contain the terrible events.

[day2day]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Terrible? Here we go...

You can get an idea by reading my posts, which have some of her quoted material in them.

Actually, pages 13-15 of this thread contain the terrible events.

MMhmm here we go. I guess you notice we have lost so much! Thanks for the heads up -I will go read the "terrible events" myself...

[Serendipitous1]

My opinion: and, unless you saved them, for posts (probably through the end of last week) you can search for cached/archived pages using google.com, boardreader.com, omgili.com, etc. In addition to at least 5 weekend threads (seems like Politigal was always starting them), others threads started by Pgal were:
- Other "Perfect" Relationships
- Not *One* Iota
- "Saint Patty"
- Strictly Fornicola W/An Accomplice
- PF/Redux
- Family Website Down?
- POLL: Which Way Did he *Go*?
- Questions for Tony/Barbara/Lara/or other Family
- Questions Answered by Tony
- Puzzling
- Puzling II
- Change of Pace
- I'm a nut for Lists
- New Drug Bust
- In Reverse Order
- Fingerprints in the Mini

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day


MMhmm here we go. I guess you notice we have lost so much! Thanks for the heads up -I will go read the "terrible events" myself...

I went back and read the 3 pages again and I don't see anything to make someone who has been on Court TV Forums for so long (not just on RG's threads) to take her posts and leave. Nothing so terrible there to me!

[sherrijean981]

A couple of us had questioned in pm's and phone calls why Pgal was starting so many threads when the things posted could have been put on other threads already there. We were wondering what her agenda had been then, what she was up to? Was this the purpose? Get us all to post on her threads, let the others go to the bottom of the pages and then when we have all stayed up late into the night and contributed to her new threads she had them deleted?

JMO

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I doesn't factor into my odds on this being walk away, but it is interesting. If there was evidence that RFG left Lewisburg on his own, the Wilkes-Barre sighting would be the first thing I'd want to focus on.

It's a bit stronger than any other post 4/15/05 sighting, IMO, because:

1. Two people saw the same thing.

2. It was more than a brief sighting, like seeing RFG drive past, or walking past him on the street, "waiting" for someone.

The key question is, if this is a walkaway, how did RFG get out of Lewisburg?

The answers I can find are:

A. He bought a car (possibly under an assumed name, or a straw purchase by a third party). There may be a record.

B. He had someone pick him up.

The pool of people whom RFG would trust to pick him up, or make a straw purchase, and keep quiet about it would be exceptionally limited, IMO.

Family, and I think all you Ohio Gricars and LG are accounted for in that time. :) You're also not local.

Friends, only three are known, but two have not been checked out. (PEF is the third.)

Co-workers? Other than PEF, there have been none checked out. There is at least one that has been a bit suspicious.

I think if those things/people were checked out, with a negative result, the probability of either murder or suicide would increase.

JJ, are you aware there is a railroad line running from Lewisburg to Northumberland and up to Wilkes-Barre? It follows Rt 11. What if RG hopped a train? Just a thought!

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by sherrijean981

JJ, are you aware there is a railroad line running from Lewisburg to Northumberland and up to Wilkes-Barre? It follows Rt 11. What if RG hopped a train? Just a thought! There are no passenger trains in central PA anymore, except for local junkets. There are still freight trains...and even a few idiot train jumpers. But I do not see RG as one of them. My opinion.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion: and, unless you saved them, for posts (probably through the end of last week) you can search for cached/archived pages using google.com, boardreader.com, omgili.com, etc. In addition to at least 5 weekend threads (seems like Politigal was always starting them), others threads started by Pgal were:
- Other "Perfect" Relationships
- Not *One* Iota
- "Saint Patty"
- Strictly Fornicola W/An Accomplice
- PF/Redux
- Family Website Down?
- POLL: Which Way Did he *Go*?
- Questions for Tony/Barbara/Lara/or other Family
- Questions Answered by Tony
- Puzzling
- Puzling II
- Change of Pace
- I'm a nut for Lists
- New Drug Bust
- In Reverse Order
- Fingerprints in the Mini

thank you for the list S1..I really appreciate it!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
There are no passenger trains in central PA anymore, except for local junkets. There are still freight trains...and even a few idiot train jumpers. But I do not see RG as one of them. My opinion.

I also looked at those, and it didn't look like they ran a lot from Milton on down (the line is across the river, IIRC). I think it was just one or two runs per day (and I'm not sure about Saturdays). Also, I don't know if the go to Wilkes-Barre, but to Harrisburg.

[Laws]

Am very sorry that we have lost yet another REAL contributor. There are the valuable UTR, LW & D2D but I will miss Politigal very much.

Straight talker, shared information & research, answered ? fully, not in code & very sorry for the abuse that was thrown at her.

That being said, was Ray Gricar known to make substantial loans to people he knew without documentation??????

Did Ray Gricar invest in rental property??????

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by day2day

thank you for the list S1..I really appreciate it! OK then...you owe me girl! I am thinking of lots of sweet tea here and maybe some of that famous southern hospitality!!?

J.J.: jumping trains reminds me of the Hobo's Lullaby. Now I will be singing/humming that all night. Thanks guy.

All just my own self-righteous, wannabe board-controlling, but dimwitted opinion....though I have this thing for missing LE types.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Laws
Am very sorry that we have lost yet another REAL contributor. There are the valuable UTR, LW & D2D but I will miss Politigal very much.

Straight talker, shared information & research, answered ? fully, not in code & very sorry for the abuse that was thrown at her.

That being said, was Ray Gricar known to make substantial loans to people he knew without documentation??????

Did Ray Gricar invest in rental property??????

I am also very sad that Pgal isn't here. I think she was a very honest poster. ..I know that she spent MANY hours researching this case ..and her heart was always in the right place..

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Laws
<Snip>
Am very sorry that we have lost yet another REAL contributor. There are the valuable UTR, LW & D2D but I will miss Politigal very much. Straight talker, shared information & research, answered ? fully, not in code & very sorry for the abuse that was thrown at her. Politigal is still here, unless you did not notice. Whether Pgal continues to post is another matter. Whether Pgal (or anyone else) put off other posters or potential posters is yet another matter. And whether anything posted here has made, or will ever make a difference is the all important question. My opinion. "So, go to sleep you weary hobos.....let the towns drift slowly by. Can you hear the steel rails hummin? That's the hobo's lullaby" (Pete Seeger type "code", added for your amusement).

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
OK then...you owe me girl! I am thinking of lots of sweet tea here and maybe some of that famous southern hospitality!!?

J.J.: jumping trains reminds me of the Hobo's Lullaby. Now I will be singing/humming that all night. Thanks guy.

All just my own self-righteous, wannabe board-controlling, but dimwitted opinion....though I have this thing for missing LE types.

Mmhmm..anytime I make the best sweet tea in the entire state!!
And we have heapin helpins of hospitality at my house!!

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by day2day

Mmhmm..anytime I make the best sweet tea in the entire state!!
And we have heapin helpins of hospitality at my house!! Oh, I am liking that! But there is another, closer house I would like to visit and go through...just for my own curiosity sake. Although...I have just a tad bit more trust in LE and the family...still!?! MOO

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Oh, I am liking that! But there is another, closer house I would like to visit and go through...just for my own curiosity sake. Although...I have just a tad bit more trust in LE and the family...still!?! MOO

Well I can win em over with my southern hospitality (and sweet tea) while you search the house! Noone will EVER suspect us..
:D
IMO-if LE knew from day1 if CB was feeding them a line of BS. So if she was..why did they continue with the dog and pony show?
Makes no sense to me...(sorry LE)

~jmo...and I really DO respect 99 percent of LE-although I do realize there are some out there that aren't on the up and up!

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I also looked at those, and it didn't look like they ran a lot from Milton on down (the line is across the river, IIRC). I think it was just one or two runs per day (and I'm not sure about Saturdays). Also, I don't know if the go to Wilkes-Barre, but to Harrisburg.

Go to MapQuest and put in Wilkes-Barre, PA. Use the arrow on the left and zoom in on it. You can see the railroad tracks and can follow them the whole way to Lewisburg by way of Northumberland and then it turns to Lewisburg. It looks like they disappear at times but they are running under the highways or along the highways.

At this time and since April 15, 2005 no one can actually say what Ray would be doing now. The Ray everyone knew would not walk away from his daughter, nephews and SO, or his job. If something has happened to him and he isn't in his right mind we don't know what he is capable of doing. We also don't know what someone else could have done to him.

Homeless people are always riding the freight rails, getting caught sometimes and other times not. All I am saying is there were freight lines leaving Lewisburg and going to Wilkes-Barre, whether he actually used them or not only he would know.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by day2day


Well I can win em over with my southern hospitality (and sweet tea) while you search the house! Noone will EVER suspect us..
:D
IMO-if LE knew from day1 if CB was feeding them a line of BS. So if she was..why did they continue with the dog and pony show?
Makes no sense to me...(sorry LE)

~jmo...and I really DO respect 99 percent of LE-although I do realize there are some out there that aren't on the up and up!

How about a heap of country fried chicken and mashed potatoes, with chicken gravy and a batch of fordhook lima beans, along with that sweet tea and hospitality?

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Laws
Am very sorry that we have lost yet another REAL contributor. There are the valuable UTR, LW & D2D but I will miss Politigal very much.

Straight talker, shared information & research, answered ? fully, not in code & very sorry for the abuse that was thrown at her.

That being said, was Ray Gricar known to make substantial loans to people he knew without documentation??????

Did Ray Gricar invest in rental property?????? Assumedly as one of the apparent "abusers" that you point out, I'm not sure if you want me to answer this? (That's my fav "That being said" so far.)

For the sake of efficiency: No and No

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Assumedly as one of the apparent "abusers" that you point out, I'm not sure if you want me to answer this? (That's my fav "That being said" so far.)

For the sake of efficiency: No and No Well..."that being said" so far, what the heck (if anything) do we have to look forward to......beside maybe Penn State over Notre Dame by 2 touchdowns???? Is there anything "new"?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Go to MapQuest and put in Wilkes-Barre, PA. Use the arrow on the left and zoom in on it. You can see the railroad tracks and can follow them the whole way to Lewisburg by way of Northumberland and then it turns to Lewisburg. It looks like they disappear at times but they are running under the highways or along the highways.


I think I checked about 10 months ago. The trains seem to run from Milton (or north) to Harrisburg, but not from that line to Wilkes-Barre. In other words, it would be possible to hop a freight from Milton (or across from Lewisburg) to points south (like Harrisburg) or possibly north (like Milton or Williamsport) but not from Lewisburg to Wilkes-Barre.

[tonyGricar]

There's always something going, it seems. The problem with an open investigation is the ability to say much. I will say that I, and we, have much faith in Det. Rickard. I spoke to him at length the other day, and I greatly appreciate his energy, tenacity, and interest. I'd say he's rejuvinated the investigation with.... what? Oh, yeah... that "fresh set of eyes" I love to repeatedly be quoted as saying. Maybe someone can start a polling thread asking for a new interview cliche?

But, as it goes with Penn St, I'd say Joe is set to run big this weekend. I talked to a few former stars tonight at a local establishment and they are just as jazzed. I also did sneak into Gamble Mill for some great Ahi, so my week is mostly complete. State College is abuzz...

[Laws]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Assumedly as one of the apparent "abusers" that you point out, I'm not sure if you want me to answer this? (That's my fav "That being said" so far.)

For the sake of efficiency: No and No

If you are able to answer any question of mine, that is great, long ago it was my decision to pose questions hoping that a dedicated LE agent would see them & process whether the answers would be helpful in locating Ray Gricar or establishing what has happened to him.

Hopefully that LE agent will be Detective Rickard, if not it may be someone who takes an interest in the Ray Gricard case & moves with it. It has happened before. There was a police officer from another city who had grown up in the area that Molly Bish disappeared who worked that case on his own & after 3 years, she was "found" so that her family could give her a proper burial & know where she was & that indeed foul play was involved.

Just last night, was a "breaking news" about a 76 year old woman who was missing & two of the investigator's spent their "day off" retracing steps they had taken already & they "found her alive" after being missing 2 weeks. It is that type of dedication that is needed for Ray Gricar, he is deserving for he gave it.

Investigations should not be conducted according to social protocol or avoiding hurt feelings. Hope that Detective Rickard has speed reading abilities & is able to review everything, especially patterns of spending, leisure, human resources data, that was done & establish what needs to be done, has the strength of convictions, resources, passion & common sense necessary.

[Tree_of_Life]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
There's always something going, it seems. The problem with an open investigation is the ability to say much. I will say that I, and we, have much faith in Det. Rickard. I spoke to him at length the other day, and I greatly appreciate his energy, tenacity, and interest. I'd say he's rejuvinated the investigation with.... what? Oh, yeah... that "fresh set of eyes" I love to repeatedly be quoted as saying. Maybe someone can start a polling thread asking for a new interview cliche?

But, as it goes with Penn St, I'd say Joe is set to run big this weekend. I talked to a few former stars tonight at a local establishment and they are just as jazzed. I also did sneak into Gamble Mill for some great Ahi, so my week is mostly complete. State College is abuzz...

I'm headed to State College for the weekend. Seems everyone I know will be in town. Perhaps I'll bump into you Tony among the other millions there!

[Cloudbuster]

http://www.bucknell.edu/x5216.xml

http://www.greyhound.com/scripts/en/TicketCenter/terminal.asp?city=170764
Lewisburg, Pennsylvania

Address
MARKET STREET DELI
520 MARKET ST
Lewisburg, PA 17837


Telephone Numbers
Main: 570-524-7776
Greyhound Charter: 800-454-2487

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
http://www.bucknell.edu/x5216.xml

http://www.greyhound.com/scripts/en/TicketCenter/terminal.asp?city=170764
Lewisburg, Pennsylvania

Address
MARKET STREET DELI
520 MARKET ST
Lewisburg, PA 17837


Telephone Numbers
Main: 570-524-7776
Greyhound Charter: 800-454-2487

LE checked public transit, including taxi services and bus lines early on. They also checked car rental agencies.

If RFG voluntarily left the Lewisburg area, he either acquired a car, or someone drove him out. Hitchhiking is a possibility, but with the press coverage, it's likely that the driver would have said something.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ how are you coming up as Abdolly?? Im lost lol?

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ how are you coming up as Abdolly?? Im lost lol?

Abdolly is a porn spammer and the post was removed by CW

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks Politigal!!! Geez i thought JJ changed his screen name into 2 people lol and I was curious as to how one can do that lol. :hat:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Thanks Politigal!!! Geez i thought JJ changed his screen name into 2 people lol and I was curious as to how one can do that lol. :hat:

CB, You need to start researching again. What can we look for now to get things interesting and give us a "new set of ideas"? A play on words there.

I have been looking at different sites but it all leads to the same stuff. I was going back over old posts and threads, from the beginning, but it was the same then as now. I have started to read KA article again. There had been something bugging me but I have to read again and again to see if it will pop up at me. It was a whisper of someyhing and I kept reading without stopping to question it, now it isn't talking. .:confused:

How are you? Any new barebrick leads? I was printing them out as you posted them. They are a little confusing aren't they? Don't know anything about hexagrams. The book the detective wrote sounds interesting and is from late 1890's. Wonder if a copy is elswhere. have to find out who the two men are he is mentioning to figure out who the client could be??

I think I saw a bigger one from him one time. Wasn't it around the time Cindi was going to the old Mid State Airport , near Phillipsburg/Port Matilda with the road near Black Moshannon Park? She was to look around and she had posted his comment then. Do you remember?

[Politigal]

Tony recently posted that the investigation wasn't as "cold" as he had thought.

So, I wonder what direction LE are actually looking in...

toward one of RG's past cases?

PF?

a co worker?

???

[Politigal]

I found a very apropos comment last night on the case of the little girl who went missing in Portgugal (Madeleine McCann) ....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=483027&in_page_id=1770

Mark Williams-Thomas, a former British detective who worked on the Sarah Payne murder inquiry, said: "The last person to see Madeleine is absolutely vital to this investigation.


"If the police are saying the last picture of Madeleine is the last time she was seen, then they have to establish what went on in the hours in between this and when she was reported missing. This could definitely be the focus of the inquiry."



Insert RG into the above comments:


Ray Gricar was last seen in the surveillance video leaving the Courthouse on Thurs evening 4/14/05.

"The last person to see" RG is absolutely vital to this investigation.

"They have to establish what went on in the hours in between this and when" HE was reported missing. This *should* "definitely be the focus of the inquiry."


IMO

[J. J. in Phila]

The last person to "see" RFG may have been one of the witnesses in Lewisburg.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
The last person to "see" RFG may have been one of the witnesses in Lewisburg.

The surveillance video is the last concrete evidence of Gricar.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
<Snip>
Ray Gricar was last seen in the surveillance video leaving the Courthouse on Thurs evening 4/14/05.

"The last person to see" RG is absolutely vital to this investigation.

"They have to establish what went on in the hours in between this and when" HE was reported missing. This *should* "definitely be the focus of the inquiry." Without being purely argumentative...what makes you believe this has not, absolutely, been the focus from day one? Should we have more faith in journalism than we do in LE...not to mention RG's family (the ones who matter most)...and particularly TG?

It was a significant moment when TG called for a new investigation. My hope is that his more recent statement (that the case is not as cold as some fear) was borne of some renewed confidence in the investigation, rather than of resignation to some lesser (unacceptable) reality.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


The surveillance video is the last concrete evidence of Gricar.

You asked about, '"The last person to see RG...," not about the last photographic evidence of RFG.

And as to "concrete evidence," no, that is far from the last concrete evidence. It is the last known photographic evidence. It obviously is not the last "person" to witness RFG, nor is is it the last piece of physical "evidence" of RFG.

We throw around words here, like "concrete" or "verifiable," that has no real meaning in terms of evidence.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Without being purely argumentative...what makes you believe this has not, absolutely, been the focus from day one? Should we have more faith in journalism than we do in LE...not to mention RG's family (the ones who matter most)...and particularly TG?

snipped

Because even Tony said - there was never any forensic investigation at the home. That tells me it has absolutely not been the focus.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


You asked about, '"The last person to see RG...," not about the last photographic evidence of RFG.

.

If you reread my post --- the detective considered the last photographic evidence of Madeleine to be the last time she was seen.

"If the police are saying the last picture of Madeleine is the last time she was seen,

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Politigal


If you reread my post --- the detective considered the last photographic evidence of Madeleine to be the last time she was seen.

"If the police are saying the last picture of Madeleine is the last time she was seen,

And the REST of the article seems to be very instructive on this point, Pgal, and speaks to exactly the kind of argument attempted when one tries to bring in any witnesses in the Gricar case. Pasting some of the McCann article here:

According to the Daily Mail's sister paper, the Evening Standard, a senior Portuguese police source says they cannot confirm the whereabouts of Kate McCann and her daughter between 2.29pm - when the last photograph of the girl was taken - and 8.30pm when her mother arrived at a tapas bar for dinner.

Previous reports had suggested that the McCanns and their children were with the rest of the holiday party at at another location - the Paradiso restaurant - at 6pm close to the beach at Praia da Luz. The restaurant's owner claimed earlier this week that he had seen Madeleine and her father, Gerry, dancing together.

However, in yet another new development in the long-running saga, sources close to the McCanns this afternoon confirmed that they were in fact NOT at the restaurant.

The dispute deepened this evening when staff insisted that they HAD been at the restaurant - and there was CCTV footage to prove it.

Much more there for those who choose to read it.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


And the REST of the article seems to be very instructive on this point, Pgal, and speaks to exactly the kind of argument attempted when one tries to bring in any witnesses in the Gricar case. Pasting some of the McCann article here:

According to the Daily Mail's sister paper, the Evening Standard, a senior Portuguese police source says they cannot confirm the whereabouts of Kate McCann and her daughter between 2.29pm - when the last photograph of the girl was taken - and 8.30pm when her mother arrived at a tapas bar for dinner.

Previous reports had suggested that the McCanns and their children were with the rest of the holiday party at at another location - the Paradiso restaurant - at 6pm close to the beach at Praia da Luz. The restaurant's owner claimed earlier this week that he had seen Madeleine and her father, Gerry, dancing together.

However, in yet another new development in the long-running saga, sources close to the McCanns this afternoon confirmed that they were in fact NOT at the restaurant.

The dispute deepened this evening when staff insisted that they HAD been at the restaurant - and there was CCTV footage to prove it.

Much more there for those who choose to read it.

yep - that's why it's better to rely on verifiable evidence (that term that JJ just doesn't like.) :)

[UndertheRadar]

As far as I can see, the last verified evidence of Ray Gricar's whereabouts is on that video from Thursday night, leaving the courthouse. MOO.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
As far as I can see, the last verified evidence of Ray Gricar's whereabouts is on that video from Thursday night, leaving the courthouse. MOO.

It's still puzzling to me why law enforcement has never made that video available to the public.

Could there be someone else in that video with him?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


If you reread my post --- the detective considered the last photographic evidence of Madeleine to be the last time she was seen.

"If the police are saying the last picture of Madeleine is the last time she was seen,

Even in that case, it is probably an inaccurate statement. It usually would be.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by logicworks



Absolutely agree, Politigal.

The departure from the courthouse to the supposed arrival in Lewisburg, 15 hours later, leaves a great many places and much time in between for there to be more than ONE other person who can verify at least ONE other place where he was seen, talked to. No gas station attendants where he may have pulled in for gas, no convenience mart for a bottle of water; no sighters on route 192, Centre Hall or in Bellefonte.

We are left with one location in between the two offered locations, one of which is verifiable, the Courthouse, the other unverifiable considering witness were not acquaintances of RG's, and anyone can park a car.

The in-between location is the only place to gather evidence considering there is only one place we are told he was talked to in between video at the Courthouse, which is absolute proof, and then..........nothing that is absolute.

Unfortunately the evidence gathering began at the unverifiable end of the investigation instead of at the home where he disappeared from, considering that was supposedly the last place seen by anyone who KNEW him.

Three points only, one on camera, one, a parked vehicle, and third, not fingerprinted, not luminol tested, no dogs brought in, not cordoned off, left open for traffic. The point of disappearance must be verified. A car and a phone are both perfectly willing to let anyone operate them. Neither task HAD to have be completed by RG, nor can it in any way be misconstrued to conclude RG was the 'doer'. We already know how many times things are overlooked in investigations. IMO, overlooking the home at the beginning point for gathering evidence was why we are still here, 2.5 years later, wondering.

Just read last night, in CRIME SCENE, by Larry Ragle........

THE BOTTOM LINE

Many new investigators and prosecutors may be unaware of traditional trace, hair and fiber evidence. In recent years it has become more difficult for the lab personnel to justify spending the time it takes to characterize trace evidence, hairs, and fibers, or even to train new scientists in the techniques. As has already happenend in some major jurisdictions, crime scene investigators no longer spend the time to search for and collect the standards necessary for comparison should trace evidence be important as the investigation progresses.

Either they know it is unlikely the crime lab will ever examine the material, so they don't want to waste their time, or as with some new scene investigators, they have never been trained to anticipate its usefulness as circumstantial evidence. ***When investigators fail to collect ALL of the evidence, they risk overlooking incriminating or exculpatory information.***

JMO

I think the highlighted portion of your post says it all

[day2day]

IMO, overlooking the home at the beginning point for gathering evidence was why we are still here, 2.5 years later, wondering.




JMO

I also think returning the car so soon was another HUGE error in this case...

:read:

jmo

[Politigal]

I haven't really read any posts about it, but I'm curious if any of the witnesses who reported seeing Gricar have ever been investigated - I mean, it's possible one of them is friends with or is related to the killer.

IIRC, I think it was ParlorElephant who posted about the sighting of RG at Oprah's show, that it was right around the same time that Fornicola was taking or had taken the polygraph.

And that witness who reported the Oprah sighting is married to a window washer who cleans windows at the Centre County Courthouse.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by gstickley
Pgal. Did you notice that on 06/30, DZ knew the lady & "she definitely knows what he looks like".

On 07/06, CoP Dixon "didn't know where she was from, as the officer who handled the tip was not available."

Same agency, same investigation, right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing????

how weird...

[Laws]

UndertheRadar
Some confirmation from one of the folks in one of the best positions to know RG's county-issued cell phone habits:

Gricar's cell phone was found inside the locked car . Smith said Gricar would typically have his cell phone with him when he was traveling and would call or e-mail the office if he was going to be late or take the day Colleagues described Gricar as a dedicated prosecutor who kept a low profile outside his job.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation...8-penn-da_x.htm

********

Typically, Smith said, Gricar keeps his cell phone with him to stay in touch with the office even when he's on vacation.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05109/490420.stm05-31-2007 04:46 AM

Fornicola: No. The ashes are certainly unusual since we both don't smoke. I have no idea where the laptop is and as far as the cell phone, I don't really think that that's that unusual because sometimes when we would go away he wouldn't even take the cell phone.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156683,00.html

There appears to be a conflict regarding Ray Gricar's pattern "out of the office" "on vacation" when it comes to his cell phone & it is between Smith & PF.

So according to Smith Ray Gricar had the cell phone accessible when away from the office on "down time" & according to PF it was nothing out of the ordinary that the cell phone was not on his person & located in the car.

NOPE, that cell phone was found in the car to make the connection between the Ray Gricar's physical making of the phone call per PF's tales & the Mini. Ray Gricar, IMO DID NOT make that phone call, it was all staged to back up PF's tales.

Where is Ray Gricar's brief case????????????? No way can I believe that he had the lap top & not his brief case, no way at all. Lap top had evidence of interests, cell phone & mini were used as prop's. JMHO

[Laws]

The timeline investigated begins 9:07 PM 4/14/05 Detective Rickard. It can not be stressed enough.

Office staff should be interviewed as to patterns of Ray Gricar & the office patterns around the lunch hour & days off.

Neighbors should be interviewed as to patterns they were aware of & differences noticed in the weeks before 4/14/05.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Laws

So according to Smith Ray Gricar had the cell phone accessible when away from the office on "down time" & according to PF it was nothing out of the ordinary that the cell phone was not on his person & located in the car.



Laws, there is huge difference, time wise, about being out of two for a few hours, and being out of town for days and weeks on vacations.

A couple of things:

1. It has been established that the if LE needed to call the DA's Office, and could get to RFG, they would call the next person on the list. There would be no urgent calls that would go unanswered.

2. RFG has voice mail and could turn his phone off and check it several hours later.

3. The only official reasons for the office get in touch will RFG quickly are things like, a jury coming in on a case he argued or an appeals court decision coming done. There were none of 4/15/05 (and yes, in that case, it would be suspicious).


Ray Gricar, IMO DID NOT make that phone call, it was all staged to back up PF's tales.


The probability is very unlikely and would be about the same as someone, in the office, making a tape of him and playing it back, to fool the people in the office.

It is probable that RFG made the call.


Where is Ray Gricar's brief case?????????????

If he had one, its location is known. It's not among the missing items. I would also find it suspicion if he carried both, unless he had the laptop case, and that he would take the briefcase on a drive in the country.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks
[B]


Absolutely agree, Politigal.

The departure from the courthouse to the supposed arrival in Lewisburg, 15 hours later, leaves a great many places and much time in between for there to be more than ONE other person who can verify at least ONE other place where he was seen, talked to. No gas station attendants where he may have pulled in for gas, no convenience mart for a bottle of water; no sighters on route 192, Centre Hall or in Bellefonte.



LW, unless he stopped, it is unlikely that anybody would see and remember a car speeding down the road. I know of very few cases where someone saw a car pass them by them unless something called their attention to it, like hitting some other car or person, or they saw the car pulling out. I can't think of any where someone saw a car passing the other direction.

A parked car is different.


We are left with one location in between the two offered locations, one of which is verifiable, the Courthouse, the other unverifiable considering witness were not acquaintances of RG's, and anyone can park a car.


There is however, physical evidence that RFG was the last person to drive the car, at least any distance.

It occurs to me that if you claim differently, then you much include in the suspect pool for murder any person that was allegedly in the DA's office on 4/15/05, especially someone who has acted suspiciously after the fact.

One of the reasons, in fact the main reason, that I discount JKA as a suspect is that she could not have known RFG was in in Lewisburg. Now, if you are claiming that RFG wasn't in Lewisburg, that kind of removes JKA's alibi.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Laws
The timeline investigated begins 9:07 PM 4/14/05 Detective Rickard. It can not be stressed enough.

Office staff should be interviewed as to patterns of Ray Gricar & the office patterns around the lunch hour & days off.

Neighbors should be interviewed as to patterns they were aware of & differences noticed in the weeks before 4/14/05.

In looking at PF's house on the Centre 2006 aerial map, it is a corner lot. The lot is a long rectangular shape, as is the house and garage (front to back.) The front of the house faces Collins. The side of the house, the driveway and the garage face Hill St. By looking at the legend on the map, it shows which buildings are sheds/storage buildings/detached buildings, as opposed to the homes. And according to the map, the lots on Hill St that face PF's garage are actually the rear of those lots. So, it would be likely that no neighbors would have seen the Mini Cooper leaving, unless those neighbors happened to be in their back yards at the time.

[day2day]

Originally posted by logicworks



One of my neighbors while visiting a business in Bellefonte was handed a writing re: this person's ideas about what may have happened to RG. This was someone RG knew and may have conducted business with in Bellefonte. The neighbors left me read it.

One of the things the man noted was that RG NEVER went into this person's business location without his cell phone on him. Described it as always being on his belt. Although I did not agree with the author's theory of what he believes was likely to have happened, the info about the cell phone was interesting. I would assume that if he was there doing business it was most likely during RG's 'off' time.
JMO

The fact that he kept his phone on his belt is VERY important ..IMO.

IMO he just didn't play hooky on 4/15/2005- he totally changed the way he did EVERYTHING. Including contacting HIS staff..

:shrug:

imo

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by logicworks


One of the things the man noted was that RG NEVER went into this person's business location without his cell phone on him. Described it as always being on his belt. Although I did not agree with the author's theory of what he believes was likely to have happened, the info about the cell phone was interesting. I would assume that if he was there doing business it was most likely during RG's 'off' time.
JMO

Since the county-issued cell phone replaced the county-issued pager RG previously carried, I would assume they served the same function, allowing other official persons the ability to contact RG 24/7, not at RG's whim, with the option to check messages later when he felt like it.

[Politigal]

Expanding on my post above about PF's street/neighbors...and I'm not posting names....there is an interesting group of people residing there.

Across from PF's is a nurse who just got her license late '05

Next to the nurse is a 100 yr old man/wife

Next to them is PF's friend who used to work with her years ago (per an article in the news)

Caddycorner from PF is the group chair of the Sierra Club Moshannon group - a guy who organizes hikes & canoe trips

Also in the vicinity is a small machine/tool company

And, there's an IT consultant who works at the PSU computer store

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Since the county-issued cell phone replaced the county-issued pager RG previously carried, I would assume they served the same function, allowing other official persons the ability to contact RG 24/7, not at RG's whim, with the option to check messages later when he felt like it.

That assumption is not correct. Think of the attempts to call Smith. JKA also indicated that there was a protocol established, if someone could not be reached.

The key is the voice mail. RFG can turn on cell phone for a few hours and check messages. In theory, it's his day off.

[Laws]

Thank you LW, UTR & Politigal.

Regarding the cell phone this makes more sense to me than PF's dismissal to Greta. This also agrees with Smith's assessment of Ray Gricar typically being available even during vacation times.

Ray Gricar was 60 years old & well established in that his patterns were very clear & dependable. Now if the staff in total would be interviewed outside the office & be assured that their offerings were confidential bet those offerings would be very helpful in establishing actual patterns & identifying misdirection that may have been offered.

In MY world professionals with an in charge status, utilizing normal protocol, remain available to their stand in during "time off" out of mutual respect & appreciation to the "one" standing in for them & their knowing that the stand in wouldn't be contacting them if they were not in need of some assistance. That includes 2 hours off or 2 weeks off. There is always one person who has access to contact, ALWAYS.

[UndertheRadar]

Originally posted by Laws
Thank you LW, UTR & Politigal.

Regarding the cell phone this makes more sense to me than PF's dismissal to Greta. This also agrees with Smith's assessment of Ray Gricar typically being available even during vacation times.

Ray Gricar was 60 years old & well established in that his patterns were very clear & dependable. Now if the staff in total would be interviewed outside the office & be assured that their offerings were confidential bet those offerings would be very helpful in establishing actual patterns & identifying misdirection that may have been offered.

In MY world professionals with an in charge status, utilizing normal protocol, remain available to their stand in during "time off" out of mutual respect & appreciation to the "one" standing in for them & their knowing that the stand in wouldn't be contacting them if they were not in need of some assistance. That includes 2 hours off or 2 weeks off. There is always one person who has access to contact, ALWAYS.

Agree, Laws, about the long-standing behavior patterns and how important it would be to interview, individually, the entire staff to establish how Gricar operated with regard to contact issues. We already seem to have some contradiction available.

Also agree that I have always seen exactly what you have, in-charge person remaining available to others who might need to contact him/her as a matter of mutual respect and appreciation. Whether it is a scheduled vacation day or a spur of the moment afternoon off has been irrelevant.

[Politigal]

JKA discusses the long standing phone protocol here:

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

Ray had a long-established contact protocol in place, under which if police needed advice or assistance, he was to be contacted first. If he were not personally available when they called or paged, they were to refer the question first to Mr. Smith as First Assistant, and if he were also unavailable, then to ADAs in the office in order of seniority. Each police department had a list of home/cell numbers for the DA staff in order of seniority for that express purpose. I was next in line after Smith.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Laws


In MY world professionals with an in charge status, utilizing normal protocol, remain available to their stand in during "time off" out of mutual respect & appreciation to the "one" standing in for them & their knowing that the stand in wouldn't be contacting them if they were not in need of some assistance. That includes 2 hours off or 2 weeks off. There is always one person who has access to contact, ALWAYS.

In my experience, that is not the case, which is why managers have voice mail and answering machines.

It seems exceptionally clear, because the protocol was established, that RFG envisioned a situation where he would not answer his cell phone.

There was the question of an "urgent" official call, but again, no one can come up with something on 4/15/05 that could have come up and needed his personal response.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Laws
Thank you LW, UTR & Politigal.

Regarding the cell phone this makes more sense to me than PF's dismissal to Greta. This also agrees with Smith's assessment of Ray Gricar typically being available even during vacation times.

Ray Gricar was 60 years old & well established in that his patterns were very clear & dependable. Now if the staff in total would be interviewed outside the office & be assured that their offerings were confidential bet those offerings would be very helpful in establishing actual patterns & identifying misdirection that may have been offered.

In MY world professionals with an in charge status, utilizing normal protocol, remain available to their stand in during "time off" out of mutual respect & appreciation to the "one" standing in for them & their knowing that the stand in wouldn't be contacting them if they were not in need of some assistance. That includes 2 hours off or 2 weeks off. There is always one person who has access to contact, ALWAYS.

In the case of 4/15/05 that person to be in contact with, would then be Karen Arnold, per her manuscript, because Mark Smith was out of town also and KA was next in line after Mark Smith .

Yet she remembers nothing of that day, whether he was in, or called, etc. I would think he would have notified her personally of his plans and how to reach him. Wonder if any calls from her or to her showed on the cell phone or house phone Caller ID for 4/14 or 4/15/05?

[Politigal]

I'm curious if Gricar generally changed his voice mail on those days where he knew he would not be working....to say i.e. "sorry I'm unavailable (or won't be in the office today) please call so in so..."

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


In the case of 4/15/05 that person to be in contact with, would then be Karen Arnold, per her manuscript, because Mark Smith was out of town also and KA was next in line after Mark Smith .

Yet she remembers nothing of that day, whether he was in, or called, etc. I would think he would have notified her personally of his plans and how to reach him. Wonder if any calls from her or to her showed on the cell phone or house phone Caller ID for 4/14 or 4/15/05?

Maybe not. He's the boss and could just have PEF tell everyone.

If she sent an e-mail to all the staff, there would be a record. That would be one of things LE should have looked at.

If there was one, it's strange that JKA didn't remember it. I can understand that, on a slow day, no one called her about a case, but her description is non-existent. I four sentences, she says, **I don't remember** three different ways.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by UndertheRadar


Agree, Laws, about the long-standing behavior patterns and how important it would be to interview, individually, the entire staff to establish how Gricar operated with regard to contact issues. We already seem to have some contradiction available.

Also agree that I have always seen exactly what you have, in-charge person remaining available to others who might need to contact him/her as a matter of mutual respect and appreciation. Whether it is a scheduled vacation day or a spur of the moment afternoon off has been irrelevant.

As it stands right now, we don't have any confirmed reports of anyone in the office being notified that RG was going to take the day off.

And there are no reports about RG having a special voicemail message telling others that he would be unavailable that day.

And according to PF, RG did not ask if anyone was looking for him or had called for him...

Very strange indeed IMO.

[day2day]

Originally posted by Politigal


As it stands right now, we don't have any confirmed reports of anyone in the office being notified that RG was going to take the day off.

And there are no reports about RG having a special voicemail message telling others that he would be unavailable that day.

And according to PF, RG did not ask if anyone was looking for him or had called for him...

Very strange indeed IMO.

Am i losin it or weren't we told that PF had emailed everyone and told them Mr. Gricar was takin 4/15 off?

[Politigal]

Originally posted by day2day


Am i losin it or weren't we told that PF had emailed everyone and told them Mr. Gricar was takin 4/15 off?

But we don't have confirmation of that by anyone else in the office.

JKA even said she doesn't recall getting an email or being told verbally.

[day2day]

Answers elusive in Gricar mystery

isn't THAT the truth!:seeya:

[day2day]

Originally posted by gstickley
I would like to add, however, that on 05/16, PF was interviewed by Greta & gave the reason for the call as "the dog".

My point is: sometimes the CDT gets it wrong???

Thanks gs..i have noticed they do tha alot! You would think that the CDT would be credible. :(...
jmo

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


But we don't have confirmation of that by anyone else in the office.

JKA even said she doesn't recall getting an email or being told verbally.

There are some deficiencies with JKA's memory (or at least what she posts of her memory). She doesn't remember seeing RFG on 4/14/05, for example.

The would be of a record of it in the server and probably in the desktops in the office.

LE did check the computers, and if it wasn't there, there would be questions.

[sherrijean981]

[ Monday, April 17, 2006 ]

Family Wants Closure In Missing DA Case

"Although the option of turning the case over to a grand jury at the attorney general's office has been discussed, Centre County District Attorney Michael Madeira said it is not "conceivable or advantageous" at this time because there is no crime or suspect to present."

Madeira stressed the importance of the case to the district attorney's office.

"While this case over time grows cold, the interest of law enforcement, my interest and the interest of the public will not grow cold," he said." Quote

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2006/04/04-17-06tdc/04-17-06dnews-08.asp

I wonder if MM has plans of getting the CDT to update the Ray Gricar site and the Q&A on Ray Gricar site?

They are doing a makeover of the site. I requested they put the Missing DA Ray Gricar site on the front page to keep him in the public eye just in case there are people who might want to post leads or give info on RG. As it is, he is relagated to a spot at the bottom of a Blog page. If you don't know it is there you won't find it easily.

Time to show some support on RG, MM. Let's see what is going on with the case. Even a small news conference with the CDT or WTAJ-TV - John Clay, with an update.
JMO

[Serendipitous1]

RG was a respected colleague and friend of DA Buehner. They knew each other through the PDAA conferences. RG, Buehner and DA McKnight played on the same volleyball team at those conferences. They often chided RG over his prosecution of Penn State football players. At a conference dinner, RG confided that he was considering retirement - planning on traveling with PF and visiting his daughter. "He was anxiously looking forward to retirement", Buehner said. "Those were his exact words."

As soon as they heard RG went missing, McKnight and Buehner suspected foul play. Two weeks after the disappearance, they had dinner with PF, and pledged to do whatever they could to help find RG. They convened a meeting with several other DAs, along with BPD officers, and did an "exhaustive review of the case". McKnight: The meeting went well, but few new ideas were offered. "It was very enlightening. I was very impressed by the Bellefonte Police Department’s investigation”.

And yet, a year later, with the BPD admittedly at a dead end, and even after MM had asked for the PSP-CIA unit review, McKnight and Buehner called for the state AG to “step up to the plate”, take over the investigation, and use the resources at his disposal to open up the case. McKnight: “The Bellefonte police department has done a great job.” “There is much that should be done, though, and it’s terribly unfair to be asking the Bellefonte police department to be doing it all.” Buehner: “It’s a multi-county investigation. He [AG Corbett] should be a leader.” McKnight even questioned the BPD’s jurisdiction in this case; that Union County, not Centre County, should have jurisdiction. McKnight: “My frustration over the past year has been that Centre County and Bellefonte borough have nothing to do with this case.”

Then came more months of official silence, punctuated only by the long-delayed PSP-CIA unit’s non-public report. The unit apparently found “no gaping holes in the investigation” and “no inherent risks” to indicate foul play. But, it was the BPD which presented its investigation to the PSP. Tony Gricar: “There was never really an independent review. It was just an assessment of Bellefonte’s work. It really was just a review of the files.” “I think they’ve [the BPD] done the best job their resources allow them to do. Our preference would be that someone not quite so attached to the case, or the work that’s been done, (take over).” McKnight (on the second anniversary): The case should have been handled by Union County and not by the BPD. “They aren’t the people who ought to be involved.” “It shouldn’t be the hometown people.”

A district attorney went missing, together with his car and his county-issued laptop. When his car was located, uncharacteristic (cigarette) evidence was found in it. A crucial witness was his girlfriend...an employee in the DA’s office. A seldom-used volume of Purdon’s statutes was inexplicably found on the first ADA’s desk...and it opened to the page dealing with what happens when a DA cannot perform his duties. A person who was very familiar with the DA spots him driving an unfamiliar car...in the courthouse parking lot...on the day he supposedly disappeared. What part of “the potential for an actual or apparent conflict of interest on the part of the district attorney or his office” did MS (and does MM) not understand?[/*]

Tony Gricar: “I could ask for a larger organization to take this on until I’m blue in the face.” MM: The investigation is at a dead end. “This is going to remain unsolved until, and if, we get a break.” JKA: “Does simple logic alone not suggest [the embattled array of public agencies and officials] should be willing, ecstatic even, to get the ongoing headaches off of their respective plates and onto the plates of others?” “Centre County law enforcement is light-years better than this. Ray Gricar was better than this.”

[Serendipitous1]

PS...OT: I might have thought the DA/ADA crowd would be more into golf. I wonder if there is any "footage" of the 50ish "boys" (and girls?) playing volleyball! Now that would be something to behold (based on my own experience)! MOO

[day2day]

All i can say is if they were impressed by the way this case has been handled...they are "VERY"easily impressed!!

jmo..of course :)

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by day2day
<Snip>
All i can say is if they were impressed by the way this case has been handled...they are "VERY"easily impressed!! [/*]If it was a "crap in", "crap out" situation, how the heck would anyone else be able to maintain objectivity? My preference would be that someone with no attachment to the case, or the work that has been done, take over. JMOO

[day2day]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
If it was a "crap in", "crap out" situation, how the heck would anyone else be able to maintain objectivity? My preference would be that someone with no attachment to the case, or the work that has been done, take over. JMOO [/*]


Mmhmm S1..
IMHO this really should have been done say..on day1?

[sherrijean981]

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/betty_gore/6.html
NOTORIOUS MURDERS/TIMELESS CLASSICS

MURDER BY THE BOOK: CANDY AND BETTY

Quote:
" The classic homicide investigation begins with scrutiny of those closest to the victim, beginning with the spouse. It then continues in a widening circle to include other relatives, close friends, known enemies, neighbors, acquaintances and professional colleagues. "
Quote


The above list came from a true crime story but it should be followed in all investigations, not just a homicide. PF and LG were scrutinized with a polygraph, hours of questioning, so shouldn't the list above been followed to the next person/s? By the list I have compiled their investigation got off course shortly after PF and LG. JMO

Nephews (TG, CG, AG), TF,

EX's (BG & EG),

Close friends (SS & EW),

Known enemies (any one of 1000's of cases),

Neighbors ( at least 3 in site of house to begin with),

Acquaintances - 1000's of people he came in contact with but could be broken down (antique shop owners, Gamble Mill employees, Bellefonte shops he frequented, gas stations, markets, barber, florists, state bottle shop, shoe shop, library, banks (he frequented), post office, etc, etc, etc),

Professional colleagues - his attorney, ADA's at the time (MM, JKA, MS, SS, LM), and any of hundreds of ADA, lawyers, judges, LE, court house employees, commissioners, state workers (other areas of work), etc, etc.

[sherrijean981]

I have been hearing questions recently as to cemetaries in Milton/Lewisburg area in reference to RG's disappearance. I find it very odd that in the fall of 2005 there was a study done and high-tec equipment used to search cemetaries in Milton. I wonder if LE had any knowledge of this investigation or were given any info from it? If not they could probably get in touch with Susquehanna University concerning any finds. JMO


http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:nzyOVOOQ9uQJ:gsa.confex.com/gsa/2006NE/finalprogram/abstract_100364.htm+milton,+pa+cemetaries&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

A MULTI-METHOD GEOPHYSICAL APPROACH TO LOCATE UNMARKED GRAVES IN MILTON, PENNSYLVANIA
BEEM, Katherine, DIPPOLD, Angela, HORNER, Jennifer, SNADER, Tyson, and KOZLOWSKI, Andrew, Earth and Environmental Science, Susquehanna University, 514 University Ave, Selinsgrove, PA 17870, beem@susqu.edu
In fall of 2005 ground penetrating radar (GPR), electromagnetic, and resistivity methods were used at two study sites in Milton, Pennsylvania. The integrated investigation delineated multiple unmarked graves from the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century. Ultisols were present at both locations, 0.5 to 3 meters thick, overlying the Silurian Bloomsburg formation of the Valley and Ridge Province in Central PA. The first site location is a 13 m by 20 m area located in the southeast corner of Milton Cemetery described as a "potter's field" with a relatively unknown history of burials and maintenance. The second site is a 10 m by 33.5 m area in the southwest corner of Harmony Cemetery and may contain bodies re-interred after flooding of the original cemetery in 1889. At both sites the state of the remains, burial techniques, and identities of the pre-1930's graves are unknown. The multi-method approach utilized a dipole-dipole array with an IRIS switch 48 resistivity meter, GSSI SIR-2000 GPR with a 400 MHz antenna, and both frequency and time-domain electromagnetic systems. Multiple geophysical methods allowed for measurements of several properties that allowed constraints to be placed on interpretations regarding subsurface targets. Multiple anomalies were detected in the subsurface at both locations by each instrument and the anomalies were correlated to confirm and eliminate possible burial locations using surface features including adjacent tombstones and trees. In addition, interpretations were partially constrained by control lines taken of known graves dated 1927 and 1956. The control line of the 1927 grave provided information about the type of response expected from a rough box burial while the 1956 grave provided information about the response expected from a more recent casket burial. More graves were found at the Milton Cemetery than at Harmony Cemetery where it appears few graves are located. The non-invasive multi-method geophysical approach used was successful in the determination of grave locations.

Northeastern Section–41st Annual Meeting (20–22 March 2006)
General Information for this Meeting
estions

[sherrijean981]

CB, you need to check this link out. It has lists of businesses in the Milton area, their addresses, what they make, etc, etc. Might be what you are looking for. There are recycling, quarries, metal factories, canned goods and food in glass jars, auto and train metal products.

http://oaspub.epa.gov/enviro/fii_master.fii_retrieve?postal_code=17847&all_programs=YES&program_search=1&report=1&page_no=1&output_sql_switch=TRUE&database_type=RCRAINFO

Also there is a Milton Cemetery with a Golf Course next to it further north of Harmony and Grandview Cemeteries, Railroad tracks go near all of them.

Check Mapquest for Willow St, Filbert St, Turbot Ave in Milton, and scan in to get a picture of all the cemeteries, a golf course and a small park.

[day2day]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Maybe not. He's the boss and could just have PEF tell everyone.

If she sent an e-mail to all the staff, there would be a record. That would be one of things LE should have looked at.

If there was one, it's strange that JKA didn't remember it. I can understand that, on a slow day, no one called her about a case, but her description is non-existent. I four sentences, she says, **I don't remember** three different ways. [/*]

I for one would love to know if there was an email sent. IMO if there was an email sent on 4/15 SOMEONE would have to remember it..:shrug:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by day2day


I for one would love to know if there was an email sent. IMO if there was an email sent on 4/15 SOMEONE would have to remember it..:shrug: [/*]

There would be a record of it in the server and possibly in the hard drive of the computer PEF used. LE did check those out, IIRC.

[Cloudbuster]

I would like to know why when I read Dana Bailey's chronology it seems like RG's?
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1988/03/03-07-88tdc/03-07-88dnews-09.asp

Now here's a alert:
http://www.findjoey.org/default.asp
MISSING:
Joey Lynn Offutt

Her car ended up in State College PA?????????

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I would like to know why when I read Dana Bailey's chronology it seems like RG's?
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1988/03/03-07-88tdc/03-07-88dnews-09.asp

Now here's a alert:
http://www.findjoey.org/default.asp
MISSING:
Joey Lynn Offutt

Her car ended up in State College PA????????? [/*]

CB, there is a forum on Court TV on Joey. Here is a link to that site and a request from her nephew for info, plus he has given their family site on her.

Quote:


Registered: Jul 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 19
hi im the nephew of joey offutt and would like to clear up some things as well as spread some links around that would hopefully help my family & I feel better about all of this. Firstly, yes the baby in the fire was her 6 week old baby. Honestly jtazzy im surprised this whole thing isnt in the media either. I can understand the first few days that it would only be on local PA news (which it was), but now its been more than 2 weeks. VeeTruWill, most of the article in which Mr David Lohr wrote on courttv's crimelibrary.com, specifically the posts from my aunt joey that she made on her yahoo profile, are pretty much irrelevant to finding my aunt. My brother had written him because in the original story that Mr Lohr wrote he had released the names of Joey's 2 daughters which is very unecessary. Also im not sure exactly what he is trying to imply about adding in the posts from her yahoo profile. Is he trying to say that Alexis (Joey's bf & soon to be husband) is a prime suspect? Or is he trying to say that joey is the one who did all of this? Im not really sure.

When I spoke to my brother after he sent me the web address of a site he created to help find our aunt joey (www.joeyoffutt.com or www.joeyoffutt.org or www.findjoey.org), he told me why he did not place a link to Mr Lohr's story because, "Basically he gained access to a support group for single moms [SingleMomsOnaMission]. He <*>fraudulently posed as a single mom, and then dug up all these posts that Joey had written to the group. He then used that in his story, when they have no bearing on the case. I think the guy's motives are to dig up dirt and be more of a "sensationalist" more than anything else. Also, the single moms group that he gained access to is going to be pursuing legal action against him for publishing those posts. So... that's why I decided not to link off to it."

As far as Alexis is concerned, he has been checked out by the police and as far as the family knows, he has passed a polygraph. No one that we know of had spoken to my aunt joey for almost a week prior to the fire, so we are all worried as to what is really going on and what is the truth. I wish the police were giving us more information but they really dont have much to give.

If anyone has any information that can help joey and our family please go to our website at http://www.joeyoffutt.com or http://www.joeyoffutt.org or http://www.findjoey.org and you will be able to contact us (the family) directly and we can keep your personal information anonymous & private.

You can also contact:
PA State Police: 814-371-4652
PA Crime Stoppers ($2,000 reward for information): 1-800-4PA-TIPS

thank you everyone for your support
Quote

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I would like to know why when I read Dana Bailey's chronology it seems like RG's?
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1988/03/03-07-88tdc/03-07-88dnews-09.asp


The thing that I found interesting is that some of the criticism in the Bailey case, about the police and DA is, if anything, stronger than in the Gricar case. They were comlaining about the lack of information released by LE.

RFG was the DA at the time!



Now here's a alert:
http://www.findjoey.org/default.asp
MISSING:
Joey Lynn Offutt

Her car ended up in State College PA?????????

She had lived there previously and the house where she had been currently living was burnt. The remains of a child were found inside.

[Politigal]

Wasn't sure which thread to post this....

but is this photo of RG by a staircase taken at PF's home?

http://wwwimage.cbs.com/primetime/without_a_trace/missing/photos/gricar_ray.jpg

[J. J. in Phila]

I just wanted to post this link to show that good, respected people do voluntarily walk away.

http://www.newschannel9.com/news/missing_964842___article.html/goddard_davis.html

[UndertheRadar]

Actually, JJ, that link doesn't show a **voluntary walkaway** in any definitive way at all, because none of the news stories available on the web (including the one you posted) indicate that a definitive reason for Jimmy Goddard's absence was discovered--only that authorities did not suspect foul play.

None of the available news stories indicate where Mr. Goddard was found, only that he was found safe and alive. How do we know it wasn't a health problem (mental or physical) which led to him being missing for a few days? How do we know he didn't become disoriented while scouting a deer stand? (It was deer season in his part of Tennessee, and there was one possible sighting of Goddard by state forestry officials the day after he went missing.)

Where is the specific indication that he **voluntarily walked away**? This is more accurately described as the story of a man who was missing for several days, for unknown reasons, rather than a voluntary walkaway.

Second, and more important, JJ, even if you had posted a link to a story that did accurately represent an example of a "good, respected person" who voluntarily walked away, I don't recall anyone here ever expressing disbelief that such a thing could happen.

Instead, I and others have continually expressed disbelief that someone of good character would deliberately do so when his own family history included a missing person who turned up deceased, knowing that his own voluntary walkaway, without explanation, would cause the same family to repeat that same anguish.

I have asked you again and again to furnish a single example of someone with that history who has voluntarily chosen to inflict that pain on his or her family, and you haven't been able to produce one. I'm not talking about someone with mental disease, but a garden variety "for my own selfish reasons, I choose to walk away" walkaway.

You'll notice that TG puts his own guess regarding walkaway at about 1%. I have never questioned him directly about this, but I would suspect it is because he knows better than anyone what Ray went through when his own brother was missing--and knows that Ray would be unlikely to **voluntarily** inflict that on those who have already suffered through it once.

I have said many times I could entertain "walkaway" in the sense of some kind of atypical fugue state, i.e., out of Ray's control, or walkaway as some kind of noble gesture which might inflict some pain while saving greater pain in the long run.

But walkaway in the sense you cast it in your Great Walkaway Scenario, with Ray stockpiling money months or years in advance, all for the thrill of proving himself brilliant, or to escape work 8 months early, or to travel before his real retirement came about, while leaving his nephews and his daughter in limbo?

I don't think so.

[J. J. in Phila]

But we also know that at least one of RFG "better friends" thinks it is a case of RFG voluntarily leaving.

Now, obviously, some other relatively normal, responsible people, bankers, police chiefs, college presidents, do walk away.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
But we also know that at least one of RFG "better friends" thinks it is a case of RFG voluntarily leaving.

Now, obviously, some other relatively normal, responsible people, bankers, police chiefs, college presidents, do walk away. [/*]

JJ, the friend that thought RFG may have walked away was Sloane.

And Tony recently posted that since so much time has elapsed since RG disappeared, etc. that friends opinions have changed.

But he would not discuss specifics.

[Cinderella]

BTW, LAWS has gone missing for quite a while. We might have to get S1 to gather a search party to find LAWS.

[J. J. in Phila]

Sloane's comments regarding money were not the reason behind the "better friend's" comment that appeared in the forum.

[Politigal]

Is it time for a new investigation?

Heck yow

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal
Is it time for a new investigation?

Heck yow [/*]

I'll give Rickard a but of time; I keep hearing good things about him, from all parties.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I'll give Rickard a but of time; I keep hearing good things about him, from all parties. Heck yow (whatever that means)...give him a but of your time (whatever that means).

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Somehow have a tough time imagining RG in the catagory of your typical SCI-FI kind-a- guy. Seems we are now to imagine the dedicated, hard-working, elected into office fellow, just took off on a time-travel adventure, with his 5'8 -10", shoulder length brunnette hair, 'podchild' never looking back at the voters or county nor concerned one iota about anything that was important to him, including money, clothing, family.


I would first suggest that you don't stereotype sci-fi fans.

Second, this is a fictionalized account of a murder case, in Centre County, set in a town modeled after State College (down to "Ye Olde Ivory Tower Diner: which sells "hot cross buns.") by an author that knew RFG, and who discussed this case with RFG. The person who found the similarities was that same author.

Now, if this was a book written by Joe East, from Palm Beach, FL, about a case there, I would instantly dismiss it. It is not.

This has a lot more weight (but not a lot overall), simply because RFG was aware of what the author was doing (encouraging another type of book on the subject), and worked with the author on the subject.



As a concerned Centre County resident, voter, tax-paying citizen, having waited nearly three years to see movement made on this case without the continued drivel, one more time with feeling, a request that a LE organization be called in who will do a fact-finding investigation.
This case need moved up to a level higher than the problem. It is the responsibility of either the DA or the AG's office to do so. It's long overdue, three years on April 15th.


I would say that neither LE nor the press are remiss in looking at a tip coming from someone who knew and worked with RFG. It's much better that the pigeon entrails approach of using psychics, dreams, that have marked the first part of this case and continue to seen from posters.

There are, as noted, some points of similarity between 20/20 Vision and this case, but it is certainly far from definitive.

It's not enough to change the numbers for me, though I expect that there is more to come. :) And you will note, I was right about this. ;)

[Cinderella]

Oh my how dissapointed that I was when I read the article. I could not believe it. If LE had processed the car the way that it should have been processed and things done the way that they were supposed to be, we might have some more clues. It seems to be since there are not a lot of clues and his body didn't end up in the river yet, let's just say that he walked away. After all it is so easy to say suicide, but Ray's body hasn't been found so let's just keep blaming him.

I really had a lot of hope in Rickard, I guess that I might be wrong. He was working along side Det Z and it is the same. If he could have provided more clue to a walk away then I might say ok and maybe Ray did walk away, but what a poor example to take that he did.

BTW, the Mel Wiley thing has been so overblown that it is sickening. One thing though if Ray did walk away, Lara would know. Maybe she needs to be questioned again. If she hasn't heard from her dad, then I would say this theory is hogwash.

I wanted the truth and I wanted proof, not just someone thought may happen. This case needs moved out of the area. What a sham. barf

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Where were RG's files on the case kept? Who had access to them prior to disappearance?


You'll have to ask Rickard, but I would expect a solid evidence chain.


The Sci-Fi time traveler seems to be a narcissist, whose sole experience can only occur by removing people, leaving the 'story' focused on the single 'I'. Ramifications of it all over the place in this case.
JMO [/*]

Boy, did you read the wrong book! :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella


I really had a lot of hope in Rickard, I guess that I might be wrong. He was working along side Det Z and it is the same. If he could have provided more clue to a walk away then I might say ok and maybe Ray did walk away, but what a poor example to take that he did.


I have a lot; he digs things up, much better than JKA.


BTW, the Mel Wiley thing has been so overblown that it is sickening. One thing though if Ray did walk away, Lara would know. Maybe she needs to be questioned again. If she hasn't heard from her dad, then I would say this theory is hogwash.


Why is RFG talking about Wiley at least seven years later and 200 miles away, to a guy from PA? Wiley walked five years after RFG left. Wiley was from another county and the news coverage seemed to be greater in the slightly closer city of Akron than to Cleveland.


I wanted the truth and I wanted proof, not just someone thought may happen. This case needs moved out of the area. What a sham.

I think at some point there will be more to come. And if you want proof, you have to look at means.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I have a lot; he digs things up, much better than JKA.



Why is RFG talking about Wiley at least seven years later and 200 miles away, to a guy from PA? Wiley walked five years after RFG left. Wiley was from another county and the news coverage seemed to be greater in the slightly closer city of Akron than to Cleveland.


I think at some point there will be more to come. And if you want proof, you have to look at means. [/*]


Wouldn't RG have been with BG when the book "20-20 Vision" came out? Did Det. R get in touch with BG to see if she had a book on her shelves that RG might have left there from their marriage? If she had heard him talk about it or saw him reading it? Some things are being mentioned before his relationship with PF but when he was with BG. Has Det. R talked to her about ANY of this? His dreams, places he liked to go, things he wanted to do or see back then? 20 years has a lot of info that might just need poked around in. Any help BG?

[sherrijean981]

I was hoping that Det. R would have mentioned the phone records from RG's cell phone, from 4/14/2005 and 4/15/2005.

Has Tony asked to see those phone records?

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by logicworks
Somehow have a tough time imagining RG in the catagory of your typical SCI-FI kind-a- guy. [/*]Nor atypical...

I've not read it yet, although I've received great detail on it. From what I gather, it's a fairly tough read, even for SciFi fans.

And if one were to drop clues related to the book, I'd think the probability of finding a U2 cassette in the parking lot would be near 100%. The only eyebrow raise that I actually had was re: the April dates. The rest is of the Silly Putty variety.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Why is RFG talking about Wiley at least seven years later and 200 miles away, to a guy from PA? Wiley walked five years after RFG left. Wiley was from another county and the news coverage seemed to be greater in the slightly closer city of Akron than to Cleveland.[/*]There actually is a connection between Sloane, Wiley, and Gricar, but it's via Judge O'Kicki. It makes more sense to me that Wiley came up in a discussion re: O'Kicki, given the similarities of being supposed budding novelists, subsequent disappearances/fleeing, and the very local connections to State College, PA that O'Kicki had. O'Kicki was even spotted in State College while on the run.

Not saying that's the reality of it, but imo it's the most obvious connecting of the dots. BTW, the discussion of Wiley left so much of an impression that when we talked about it, SS referred to him as Herb Wiley. lol

It seems we have the 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon, or the 1 to 2 Degrees of Ray Gricar.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
There actually is a connection between Sloane, Wiley, and Gricar, but it's via Judge O'Kicki. It makes more sense to me that Wiley came up in a discussion re: O'Kicki, given the similarities of being supposed budding novelists, subsequent disappearances/fleeing, and the very local connections to State College, PA that O'Kicki had. O'Kicki was even spotted in State College while on the run.

Not saying that's the reality of it, but imo it's the most obvious connecting of the dots. BTW, the discussion of Wiley left so much of an impression that when we talked about it, SS referred to him as Herb Wiley. lol



I can't even believe that RFG could remember the name and would be talking about it that far after the fact. I'd actually met O'Kicki, remember when he left (I'd just moved to Phila) and I've never drawn that parallel. I'd read the Time story in 1985, but in 1992-3, I couldn't remember his name.

It might not have left a great impression on Sloane, but it seems to on RFG. Seven years plus after the fact, never in the same jurisdiction, happening five years after he moved from the area, the actual name. Sorry, I can write off 20/20 Vision as possibly being a coincidence (one that should have been checked), but not Wiley.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I can't even believe that RFG could remember the name and would be talking about it that far after the fact. [/*]Which name?

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Which name? [/*]I'll assume you're referring to Wiley. It's interesting that you recall the Time story, albeit not his name, but Ray couldn't because he didn't live in Cleveland at the time? He spent time with quite a few from the Cleveland legal arena after he moved and still has a couple of his closest friend's there (attorneys/judges). I'd go so far as to 99% guarantee that my own Father was aware of Wiley. We went to Cleveland a couple of times a month, and can recall him bringing up Hinkley (and their Buzzards) many times.

Ray knew of Wiley. O'Kicki pulled a vanishing act, even being spotted in State College, 1993 and made the news. How would anyone not draw a comparison? Politicians don't typically vanish (although O'Kicki's case was obviously different), which filters out quite a bit of other vanishing chaff.

Fwiw, Ray himself was in Time within 3 years of Wiley.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Which name? [/*]

Wiley. When i first thought of it in regard to this case, I could remember a few details:

Ohio,

Police Chief

Missing

Burnt Cabins, PA (Wiley was righting a book about a crime that happened there, Harvest Madness; I just check that about an hour ago)

Time, 1985
(around the time of my father's heart attack)

I was able to Google that to get the full story, but I could not remember the details of Wiley's name.

I was having lunch with an aunt in 1988-9, near Burnt Cabins, and mentioned the case, but I couldn't remember Wiley's name. For me, it is really a stretch to believe that RFG would remember the case, and Wiley by name, seven plus years later.

Now, if he were talking about the Cleveland Torso Murderer, or Dr. Sam Shepard, both very well publicized cases, over time, and both directly in his jurisdiction, I wouldn't find it unusual. If he was talking about Jonathan Luna in late 2003 or early 2004, I wouldn't find it unusual. But a seven year old (possibly more), noncriminal, case from another jurisdiction with limited publicity? Not unusual? No way.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snips>
For me, it is really a stretch to believe that RFG would remember the case, and Wiley by name, seven plus years later.

...a seven year old (possibly more), noncriminal, case from another jurisdiction with limited publicity?Published on 11/13/93, Akron Beacon Journal (OH): "Eight years ago, Hinckley Police Chief Mel Wiley vanished into the night. A tell-tale typewriter ribbon, and other clues he left behind, suggest he took the identity of Tod Allan Moran -- a character from a mystery novel he had been working on. '... I'm going on to greener pastures,' the ribbon reveals. '... There is nothing here for me (but) a day-to-DAY, reminder of all in the past 20 years that did not work out.'"

Published on 11/16/93, Akron Beacon Journal (OH): "Former Hinckley Police Chief Mel Wiley, who has been missing for eight years, was pronounced 'presumed dead for estate purposes' on Monday. The action set in motion any legal division of his property, Medina County Probate Judge L. Thomas Skidmore said. 'Notice I didn't say he was dead,' Skidmore said at a hearing requested by Wiley's widowed mother, Doris Wiley."

Edited: I did not pay for the full articles.

[Cinderella]

I would love to know that Ray is out there. I need proof. I feel this is a cover up. They can't say that he committed suicide, so now they are saying that he walked away. Not one thing in the article impressed me.

It seems to me that the state Attorney General Office has been to close to this. I believe that the mystery woman was lied to about Ray's safety, but I think that they murdered him to get him out of the way.

If Ray is alive then Lara would know. If she hasn't heard from him then I believe that he is dead. I would love for someone to speak to Lara.

After all this is a great way to take eyes off of suspects and pin it on Ray. Until Lara says that she spoke to him, I don't buy the story. I believe there are high up people involved in this. If you want to label me as a conspiracy theorist then that is what I am.

If Ray is out there and walked away it is not because he wanted to do a Mel Wiley it would be for other reasons.

Just think Ray was surrounded from some many people that have connections to Johnstown.

J. J. spoon fed us all of this nonsence about Mel Wiley. He sure is a player in Ray's disappearance. J. J. I feel is a strategic writer. At any rate, I am not buying into J. J. story.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Now, if he were talking about the Cleveland Torso Murderer, or Dr. Sam Shepard, both very well publicized cases, over time, and both directly in his jurisdiction, I wouldn't find it unusual. If he was talking about Jonathan Luna in late 2003 or early 2004, I wouldn't find it unusual. But a seven year old (possibly more), noncriminal, case from another jurisdiction with limited publicity? Not unusual? No way. [/*]My point is that you found Wiley's name after thinking of the case, which would have been something Ray could have readily done if the O'Kicki case rang familiar. Even if Ray didn't recall Wiley's name, he could have just as easily said, "This O'Kicki thing reminds of a case from a while back...".

Ray read Time. You read Time. Ray spent 35+ years a short drive from Wiley's stomping grounds. We've all been to Hinkley for the buzzards. Ray loved all things Cleveland. To say that the Time article wouldn't jump out at him is ludicrous. I didn't grow up in Cleveland (although I might as well have), but when the Wiley thing came up, I immediately knew of Hinkley.

Btw, I have family in the Western suburbs of Cleveland who recall the Wiley case. They don't recall Ray talking about it, but they knew the story and the name.

Does this mean I don't think there might possibly be more to this Wiley story? Of course not. But to find it exceedingly unusual that Ray knew of him? C'mon... You could, but he couldn't?

[Cinderella]

Tony, I agree with you.

Has Lara seen or spoken to her dad? If not then he is not out there. He would not do this to Lara. Be alive and not get in touch with her.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Edited: I did not pay for the full articles. [/*]I'll assume that this has been posted before, but here's the Time link for the Wiley article.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,959737,00.html

Btw, the lakefront park/beach where Wiley's car was found, was a place we frequented as kids. That jumped out at me as well when I first read the Wiley Time article.

(searching Time also brings up the article Ray was in)

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by logicworks
If RG kept a file on the Aardsma case with his personal files, we are talking well over a decade and a series of moves. Any idea if the 'others' happen to remember? Also any idea whether an office file was still there after the disappearance? [/*]Did you extrapolate that he must have maintained a personal file based on his cooperation with the writer? I don't believe he had one. I do know, as you probably do being a local, that the open Aardsma case has haunted many associated with it.

I've heard this via another party, but I believe the author had an interest (obviously) in seeing the case file. Due to the open nature, I heard it wasn't granted. I'd assume that's where my Uncle likely came into play, among other queries she would likely have.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by logicworks <Snip>
I found a review of the book being pondered, causing more questions to arise such as what is a MMORPG feature? and what is with the musical illusions? (I thought they were merely a board occurrence.) Massive Multiple Online Role Playing Games...not kidding...MMORPG appears to be a fairly recent phenomenon. Perhaps a better overview of the book:
http://catb.org/~esr/sfreviews/RR00081.html

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Massive Multiple Online Role Playing Games...not kidding...MMORPG appears to be a fairly recent phenomenon. Perhaps a better overview of the book:
http://catb.org/~esr/sfreviews/RR00081.html er...make that Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games.
http://www.mmorpg.com/index.cfm?bhcp=1

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by logicworks


Since RG helped research, it seemed possible he might have kept a file of his research, separate from the case files.

"Gricar, in the late 1980s, helped West research the 1969 murder of Penn State student Betsy Aardsma, whose killing in the stacks of Pattee Library remains unsolved." [/*]

Yes and I had a friend who worked as a Janitor at PS. One custodian told her that he murdered Betsy. He worked there and for some reason whether he was just temporary or whatever, he didn't work at PS for a while. It always bothered me that my friend never reported this man to LE. He did work there when Besty was murdered. On the State College Police site, they have a sketch of him. I told my friend but her husband never showed her the e-mail of the picture.

I got lost in the stacks and it is scary. Sometimes it seems like forever until you see a person.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
My point is that you found Wiley's name after thinking of the case, which would have been something Ray could have readily done if the O'Kicki case rang familiar. Even if Ray didn't recall Wiley's name, he could have just as easily said, "This O'Kicki thing reminds of a case from a while back...".


Ray read Time. You read Time. Ray spent 35+ years a short drive from Wiley's stomping grounds. We've all been to Hinkley for the buzzards. Ray loved all things Cleveland. To say that the Time article wouldn't jump out at him is ludicrous. I didn't grow up in Cleveland (although I might as well have), but when the Wiley thing came up, I immediately knew of Hinkley.



First, in 1993, I doubt if you uncle was Googling anything. I am not sure if Time was even online at that point. Now, if not, either he had a nice seven or eight year collection of Time or he went to the library to look at microfilm (I'm assuming Pattee had copies).

Second, I do remember the O'Kicki case and there were some major difference with that case.

1. From the start there was no presumption that O'Kicki was dead. He was missing and was believed to be running, "on the lam" as it were. Wiley was at first presumed to have drowned.

2. I think the day after there was a report O'Kicki was at the State College Airport. It very quickly developed, I think within a week, that he had gone to Canada. There was no report of Wiley's movements after he supposedly drowned.

The only similarity is that both men walked away under very different circumstances. O'Kicki was convicted and awaiting sentencing; Wiley was supposedly taking the day off to go swimming.



Does this mean I don't think there might possibly be more to this Wiley story? Of course not. But to find it exceedingly unusual that Ray knew of him? C'mon... You could, but he couldn't? [/*]

In all honesty, not enough to to know Wiley by name in 1993. I also would not have drawn this parallel between the O'Kicki or Wiley cases, even without remembering the name. The only parallel I can draw, now is that both men left their former lives under their own volition.

Now, even if RFG drew this parallel, had an interest in both cases, I'd still need proof that he did walkaway. So far as I know, LE has not looked at several possibilities regarding that.

However, does this indicate an interest in walkaway cases. I have to say, yes.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar

I've heard this via another party, but I believe the author had an interest (obviously) in seeing the case file. Due to the open nature, I heard it wasn't granted. I'd assume that's where my Uncle likely came into play, among other queries she would likely have. [/*]

There was an article in in State College Magazine on the 30th anniversary of murder of Ms. Aardsma. Permission was not granted for the author of that article.

http://www.statecollegemagazine.com/home_pages/Betsy/who_killed_aardsma.html

[J. J. in Phila]

I did a search of search engines. The first commercial search engines were not out until 1994.

RFG either had a memory substantially better than mine, did a fair amount of old fashion library research (ah, those were the days), or an interest in the Wiley case.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
First, in 1993, I doubt if you uncle was Googling anything. I am not sure if Time was even online at that point.

Now, even if RFG drew this parallel, had an interest in both cases, I'd still need proof that he did walkaway. So far as I know, LE has not looked at several possibilities regarding that.
[/*]You may have noticed that I mentioned that he had a healthy network of friends in the Greater Cleveland area. Google was most definitely not required.

And of course we'd need proof to show walkaway. The Wiley and 20/20 piece shows nothing to anyone with reasonable intelligence, which is why LE, et all are taking this with a grain of salt.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
RFG either had a memory substantially better than mine, did a fair amount of old fashion library research (ah, those were the days), or an interest in the Wiley case. [/*]I don't think it takes a memory substantially better than yours (however you quantify that), but simply being a product of that area and the associated details related to the Wiley case. For all I know, my Cleveland-based Grandmother, the newshound that she was, talked about it with him. Or he talked about it with colleagues "back home". He certainly didn't go into a vacuum bubble when he hopped the border. That's the point that stuns me in your rationale. You'd be amazed by the level of detail that certain Gricar men retain. Gilmour, UD, and Case Western aren't exactly known for producing the dim.

I'm not going to continue this one. The level of conviction to your conceit is enough for me.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherryhefner


I'm trying to understand why RG being interested in this Aardsma case, or helping researchers concerning the case, would explain anything concerning his disappearance. Did I miss some connection? [/*]Sherry, the Aardsma case is only tangentially involved via the book, 20/20, that's been discussed in various news reports today. 20/20 is a (very) fictionalized offspring of the writer's original research she was doing for a non-fiction book detailing the Aardsma murder. There are a few details from her book that she thought seemed similar to Ray's disappearance.

Hit centredaily.com for the article that should get you up to speed.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ we just talked about Betsy not long ago remember?
Cloudbuster
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 1017
Thats a good story Cind!!! here is some other murders from there.
Around that time, a rumor arose on campus that Aardsma -- the first listing in the student directory -- was the first in a series of alphabet murders. Talk of drug deals in the stacks also circulated, Nestor said.

On March 27,1940, freshman Rachel Hutchinson Taylor, 17, left her Wildwood, N.J., home and boarded a bus headed for the Penn State campus. At about 1:30 the next morning, the bus arrived at the Atherton Street bus depot.

Taylor, a home economics major set out for her room in Atherton Hall and disappeared into the night. Several people walking on East College Avenue later said they saw her headed toward Atherton.

Police found her body the next morning, battered and nude, about four miles from campus in the parking lot of the College Township School in Lemont. Her suitcase and book were found at a nearby cemetery.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archiv...-89dnews-01.asp

Here is another good article on Dana Baileys case.

http://www.phiaonline.org/Unsolved.htm



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12-02-2007 03:20 AM



J. J. in Phila
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4863
The 1969 Aardsma murder, or "The Murder in the Stacks" was legendary when I was there.

I remember, vaguely, the reporting on Bailey.

I'd never heard of Taylor before.

It is not unusual to have three (or four, I think there is another one) in an area the size of Centre County over a 60 year period.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner


I'm trying to understand why RG being interested in this Aardsma case, or helping researchers concerning the case, would explain anything concerning his disappearance. Did I miss some connection? [/*]

20/20 Vision, admittedly, has some elements similar to elements in the RFG case. I think those are listed in the article.

The key is that the author, Pamela West, worked with RFG in the late 1980's and he seems to have known that she wrote the book.

That might be, and probably is, coincidental, and had I not known West had worked with RFG, I wouldn't have seen a link. But it is interesting.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I don't think it takes a memory substantially better than yours (however you quantify that), but simply being a product of that area and the associated details related to the Wiley case. For all I know, my Cleveland-based Grandmother, the newshound that she was, talked about it with him. Or he talked about it with colleagues "back home". He certainly didn't go into a vacuum bubble when he hopped the border. That's the point that stuns me in your rationale. You'd be amazed by the level of detail that certain Gricar men retain. Gilmour, UD, and Case Western aren't exactly known for producing the dim.


TG, I have not been incredibly critical of various witnesses, JKA, Judge Grine, both of whom have quite good educations (one from my old school), nor some of the Lewisburg witnesses, and have agreed with your points regarding why witnesses did not see anything. Frustrated, yes, annoyed, obviously, but I've never referred to any as "dim."

It is inconceivable to me you would even suggest that that I am suggesting that people who went to"Gilmour, UD, and Case Western" are "dim."

I do suggest that it is exceptionally unusual that your uncle would remember a situation, to the point remembering a name, in a noncriminal disappearance, with no direct connection to him, in a jurisdiction that he never served, six to seven years, minimum, after the fact, unless he was very interested in the case or unless he took special effort to look it up.

Equally stunning is that he would discuss Wiley with Sloane, who had no connection to Wiley and that another ADA, not particularly close to RFG, seems to remember it being discussed around the office, at least 3 years and 200 miles away. I certainly didn't put the words into her mouth; she doesn't talk to me. :)

It is also inconceivable to me that he (or you) would compare the Wiley case, where Wiley disappeared without a trace, to the O'Kicki case, whose travels (we should say "flight from the law") were quickly discovered (I think within one day). That was one that I lived through (most of it locally). There was no mystery to what O'Kicki did, only to where he would eventually end up (Slovenia, ironically, via Canada).

I think the question of why RFG would remember, and mention, the Wiley case, literally years later, is quite valid. It isn't born out of "conceit," but to a desire to follow the evidence (one that I've expressed numerous time).

Right now, that evidence takes me to a highly unusual reference made by RFG, involving a long ago walkaway case.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
The situation is so clueless that it almost does seem to have a coverup element. [/*]

I'm well short of suggesting a cover up. I seriously doubt that if TG knew where RFG was, he'd put up with all the abuse he's gotten, including from me.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by sherryhefner
I'm just curious as to what the family of RFG think may have occured. [/*]It depends on the day you ask. None of us subscribe to any one theory, although we don't particularly think he's alive.

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
It is inconceivable to me you would even suggest that that I am suggesting that people who went to"Gilmour, UD, and Case Western" are "dim."

Equally stunning is that he would discuss Wiley with Sloane, who had no connection to Wiley and that another ADA, not particularly close to RFG, seems to remember it being discussed around the office, at least 3 years and 200 miles away. [/*]My point on dim was clearly missed, but it matters little.

And yes, there was a possible discussion point that would bring up Wiley, especially if the topic was the O'Kicki case. Try to stretch your thought process the slightest bit and you will understand the tangents that one could take from O'Kicki to Wiley. Please note that I didn't say "from Wiley to O'Kicki".

I knew about O'Kicki, and I've never lived in PA. Almost defies logic, I guess...

[tonyGricar]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I think the question of why RFG would remember, and mention, the Wiley case, literally years later, is quite valid. It isn't born out of "conceit," but to a desire to follow the evidence (one that I've expressed numerous time). [/*]To clarify, I typically use the conceptual idea definition of "conceit", and not the one associated with inflated self-worth.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by tonyGricar
My point on dim was clearly missed, but it matters little.

And yes, there was a possible discussion point that would bring up Wiley, especially if the topic was the O'Kicki case. Try to stretch your thought process the slightest bit and you will understand the tangents that one could take from O'Kicki to Wiley. Please note that I didn't say "from Wiley to O'Kicki".

I knew about O'Kicki, and I've never lived in PA. Almost defies logic, I guess... [/*]

I'll take "dim" as a point missed and "conceit" as conceptual. :)

However, I do remember, vaguely, how O'Kicki was reported. It was first, O'Kicki's not home, then he's in State College, then the State College Airport, then finally, "O'Kicki fled to Canada." I think the State College Airport was in the first news cycle, film at 11:00.

In the Wiley case it was, at least from what I've read, it was he's in the lake, it was either suicide or an accident and then it was, Wiley walked away.

I'm not seeing how the media reports would have provoked a reference to Wiley, or, in the words of a former poster, "invoked" Wiley.

[Serendipitous1]

Tony: Not so long ago, you gave your probability percentages for the 3 scenarios. I was wondering if they have changed any, in light of more recent developments. TIA . . . Recent comments, excerpted from various threads:

“To me, the real and only revelation is that none of the prints IN the car were Ray's. To me, that is huge for varied reasons. We were fed information that was less indicative of foulplay.”

“Now, do I think he was there ? Yes, but that level of confidence has pulled waaay back due to the fingerprint issue.”

“With suicide or walkaway, you [day2day] and S1 bring up a very good point. We've broadly touched on this in the past, at least I know I did re: a suicide angle, but it's likely worth a deeper revisit. I have a friend who is an FBI forensic psychiatrist who I've bounced ideas off before. We can get into that if y'all would like.”

“The only eyebrow raise [over [i]20/20 Vision] that I actually had was re: the April dates.”

[gstickley]

Thought it was time to read this again. Check out the 3rd paragraph ref. the PSP inv.



http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburgh...n/s_480929.html

DA still considered a missing person

By Robin Acton
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Wednesday, November 22, 2006

BELLEFONTE -- Nineteen months after he vanished, former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar still is considered a missing person by investigators who promised Tuesday that the case "will not grow cold."

District Attorney Michael Madeira said the Bellefonte police will continue to lead the investigation and take a fresh look at evidence reviewed at his request last week by the state police's Criminal Investigation Assessment Unit.

The unit -- 17 investigators with more than 200 years' combined experience -- reviewed the demographics, the timeline and reports from interviews with witnesses and "persons of interest" related to the case, Madeira said. Investigators examined Gricar's phone, computer and financial records and information concerning his behavior prior to April 15, 2005, when he was reported missing by his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, a clerk in his office.

The review produced no new evidence to suggest what happened to Gricar.

"We were under no illusion that the case would be solved, but we wanted to provide a fresh set of eyes to suggest leads," Madeira said. "I think the family has understood that this may never be solved. ... He may be alive. He may be dead."

He said the unit recommended several investigative strategies but will not issue a formal report of the review that he insisted "was not a critique of the Bellefonte police." He said the review concluded that all of the local, state and federal agencies involved in the investigation have done a "thorough job" with the evidence.

[Politigal]

Let's hope with a new DA there *will* be a NEW INVESTIGATION!!

[Cinderella]

In the comment section under the student from PS tweetering or whatever it is called, a certain judge was not given a good reputation. Supposedly for drinking. I can see why as his wife's family owns the local beer distributor in town.

I was thinking about SPM for DA, until I saw a connection for someone helping her connected to this certain judge. After that there is no way that I would vote for SPM. I don't think that she would do another investigation considering her being connected to the judge that forgot what day he saw Ray. Come on, it was on tape, give me a break.

I don't know if any of the new candidates would do any more investigations.

Just my thoughts only.

[carolm]

I read this case from time to time so this may have already been said (sorry) if suicide his body would have been found and walk away only if he had a medical problem and did not know what he was doing...

my opinion he was murdered

[Politigal]

I read this case from time to time so this may have already been said (sorry) if suicide his body would have been found and walk away only if he had a medical problem and did not know what he was doing...

my opinion he was murdered


welcome Carol

And I agree, I believe he was killed. I also sometimes believe that police even know that, but they just can't prove it.

[Politigal]

IMO, SPM can easily beat Michael Madeira for the DA position.

I've recently emailed her with a long laundry list of items that I hope she'll take a look at in the Gricar investigation...when & if she gets into office, and she thought there were some good points there.

I suggest that all of you do the same if you haven't already.

I emailed her law office here:

http://mkclaw.com/parksmiller.html

[Politigal]

It depends on the day you ask. None of us subscribe to any one theory, although we don't particularly think he's alive.

wondering if any of the family are now "leaning" a little more toward any particular theory

[2-B]

wondering if any of the family are now "leaning" a little more toward any particular theory

I was doing a little searching on this point the other day. I couldn't find anything really recent, but everything I did find emphasized the "don't think he's alive" angle from the family. I assume that tells us the family does not believe Ray walked away. I did find some specific quotes saying as much.

[J. J. in Phila]

I was doing a little searching on this point the other day. I couldn't find anything really recent, but everything I did find emphasized the "don't think he's alive" angle from the family. I assume that tells us the family does not believe Ray walked away. I did find some specific quotes saying as much.

If you really the more recent comment from TG, it was here:

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/1228995.html

TG, in all fairness, had been a proponent of suicide for a very long time.

I also think it is clear that the family is not being told what LE has found.

[2-B]

If you really the more recent comment from TG, it was here:

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/1228995.html


Are you still trying to sell that pitiful piece of truthiness by SG as the truth? Tsk, tsk.

For the record, here's the most recent comment from TG:

Originally posted by tonyGricar

Correct, and to add a bit of clarity, "To me,” Tony Gricar said, “it looks like it absolutely knocks out the theory of foul play.” is printed a bit out of context. I was giving my view of how this new "revelation" can/will be perceived as it relates to the general public, not necessarily how I personally view this release. Obviously, if the searches were by Ray, it lessens/destroys the foul play angle, but that doesn't mean I necessarily buy what is being sold.

A few points:
a.) We were not advised of this release until the CDT let me know. I thought I was just receiving the standard anniversary requests, which I was, until their voicemail.
b.) When I phoned LE, I was told that this release is a positive thing and will hopefully generate new leads. Seriously.
c.) Interesting timing. Must be because of the anniversary.

From a media standpoint, here's how I've always viewed the 3 scenarios:
1.) foul play = sympathetic event
2.) suicide = sympathetic event
3.) walkaway = public scorn and outrage (see: Bride, Runaway)

[J. J. in Phila]

This will no doubt stun you, B-2, but this article is the one that included the context TG was complaining about.

Even another poster noted it:

Old 04-15-2009, 02:30 AM
2-B 2-B is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Politigal View Post
but apparently even Tony...his own nephew....didn't question this.

It boggles the mind.
That's what I thought on first read, too, Pgal. But on closer read, I think it's really SG's words/slant, and not TG's position.

Family spokesman Tony Gricar said the latest revelation seems to dismiss the theory that Gricar was a victim of foul play.

"To me," Tony Gricar said, "it looks like it absolutely knocks out the theory of foul play." But he added that this is just one facet of a complex mystery.

"Everything has been, still is, in that circumstantial realm," Tony Gricar said. "But I'd be a fool to say that I can rule out or can't rule out homicide at this point."


The red is SG; the bold is TG. My opinion: SG's interpretation in red gives more weight to dismissing foul play than TG's overall comments actually give. We've been around TG long enough to know he thinks things through thoroughly, and to me that's what it appears he was doing in this interview--starting to think through all sides of information he'd just been recently presented with. Just my opinion, of course.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13008632#post13008632

I rather specifically used the story that captured TG "context." You know, the one this other poster commented on at the time.

Keeeeeeep spinning. :lol:

Just for the record, I would say that this does not knocks out foul play by a long shot.

[2-B]

This will no doubt stun you, B-2, but this article is the one that included the context TG was complaining about.

It's 2-B, not B-2, JJ. And it will no doubt stun you, but I understand that TG's post was a direct comment on the way in which SG's article had taken his interview comments out of context. Therefore, I also understand how fallacious it is for you to offer the article's quotes as any kind support for that which you claimed.

You do understand that Tony was commenting on perception by the public, not offering his own perceptions, don't you? And that SG's article made it look as if those perceptions were his instead?

Even another poster noted it:

Old 04-15-2009, 02:30 AM
2-B 2-B is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Politigal View Post
but apparently even Tony...his own nephew....didn't question this.

It boggles the mind.
That's what I thought on first read, too, Pgal. But on closer read, I think it's really SG's words/slant, and not TG's position.

Family spokesman Tony Gricar said the latest revelation seems to dismiss the theory that Gricar was a victim of foul play.

"To me," Tony Gricar said, "it looks like it absolutely knocks out the theory of foul play." But he added that this is just one facet of a complex mystery.

"Everything has been, still is, in that circumstantial realm," Tony Gricar said. "But I'd be a fool to say that I can rule out or can't rule out homicide at this point."


The red is SG; the bold is TG. My opinion: SG's interpretation in red gives more weight to dismissing foul play than TG's overall comments actually give. We've been around TG long enough to know he thinks things through thoroughly, and to me that's what it appears he was doing in this interview--starting to think through all sides of information he'd just been recently presented with. Just my opinion, of course.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13008632#post13008632

I rather specifically used the story that captured TG "context." You know, the one this other poster commented on at the time.

Keeeeeeep spinning. :lol:

Just for the record, I would say that this does not knocks out foul play by a long shot.

Well, let's analyze what happened in that interchange before you start making too many claims about spinning, shall we?

Pgal made a "rush to judgment" about TG "not questioning" the foul play theory being weakened. (And who can blame her, what with that screaming headline and the truthiness problem in the article and all?)

I quoted her and asked her to think about the article a bit before she made that rush to judgment. MIND YOU: THIS WAS BEFORE TG CAME ON BOARD AND CLARIFIED WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THE INTERVIEW AND THE ARTICLE.

Even without having read the clarifying statement from Tony, I told Pgal I thought TG seemed to be thinking things over from all sides but that SG was SLANTING the article toward a dismissal of the foul play theory.

IOW, I thought the article was slanted, still do, and that Pgal should reserve judgment about Tony's position. Thankfully, Tony came on board and clarified for us. It was not true that he was "not questioning" the foul play weakened position. He spoke to the press about how the PUBLIC would perceive things; the press wrote the piece up in such a way that it appeared to be how HE perceived things--hence Pgal's initial, and incorrect, reaction to SG's article.

If anyone is spinning, as usual, it's you.

[J. J. in Phila]

And, the link that I posted where TG gave context to his comment. It is in the "circumstantial realm," with which I don't disagree. It is still the last public comment on what happened.

You like to blame the messenger, but that was the last message, at least publicly. And he continued:


04-15-2009, 03:08 AM
tonyGricar tonyGricar is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-B View Post
I think it's really SG's words/slant, and not TG's position.

The red is SG; the bold is TG. My opinion: SG's interpretation in red gives more weight to dismissing foul play than TG's overall comments actually give.
Correct, and to add a bit of clarity, "To me,” Tony Gricar said, “it looks like it absolutely knocks out the theory of foul play.” is printed a bit out of context. I was giving my view of how this new "revelation" can/will be perceived as it relates to the general public, not necessarily how I personally view this release. Obviously, if the searches were by Ray, it lessens/destroys the foul play angle, but that doesn't mean I necessarily buy what is being sold.

A few points:
a.) We were not advised of this release until the CDT let me know. I thought I was just receiving the standard anniversary requests, which I was, until their voicemail.
b.) When I phoned LE, I was told that this release is a positive thing and will hopefully generate new leads. Seriously.
c.) Interesting timing. Must be because of the anniversary.

From a media standpoint, here's how I've always viewed the 3 scenarios:
1.) foul play = sympathetic event
2.) suicide = sympathetic event
3.) walkaway = public scorn and outrage (see: Bride, Runaway)



Now, I cited the article that provided the context.

Are we going to go back to the "Massive BPD, DA's Office, CDT conspiracy theory?"

[2-B]

And, the link that I posted where TG gave context to his comment. It is in the "circumstantial realm," with which I don't disagree. It is still the last public comment on what happened.

You like to blame the messenger, but that was the last message, at least publicly. And he continued:



Now, I cited the article that provided the context.

Are we going to go back to the "Massive BPD, DA's Office, CDT conspiracy theory?"

What is your point, JJ?

You are just muddling to muddle.

Pgal assumed from SG's article that Tony was going along with the "foul play weakened" idea, a perfectly understandable assumption given the slant in SG's article.

I pointed out the slant in the article and explained what I thought was happening that led to the slant.

Tony quoted my post with that explanation and said:

Correct, and to add a bit of clarity

IOW, Tony

1) agreed with explanation of the slant that I saw in the article (his "correct" comment) and

2) gave us "clarity" by explaining the circumstances of how that slant came about.

Stop muddling.

TG was very clear. He wasn't giving SG HIS view on how HE saw the likelihood of what happened to his uncle.

He was giving SG the likelihood of what the public would think happened to his uncle.

SG quoted him out of context, making it appear as if that is what he, himself, thought about his uncle's disappearance.

What's in that article is NOT TG's last public comment regarding what HE thought happened to his uncle.

You want to drink the truthiness Kool-Aid and you want us to drink the truthiness Kool-Aid when Tony Gricar himself has explained on this board, without the filter of the vaunted media, exactly what he meant.

Sorry, Charlie.

[2-B]

One other thing I think JJ ought to look very carefully at in the post from Tony:

Obviously, if the searches were by Ray, it lessens/destroys the foul play angle, but that doesn't mean I necessarily buy what is being sold.

[bolding mine]

I wonder if JJ will starting throwing Tony under the conspiracy bus soon, as well.

[Politigal]

One other thing I think JJ ought to look very carefully at in the post from Tony:

originally posted by tonyGricar
Obviously, if the searches were by Ray, it lessens/destroys the foul play angle, but that doesn't mean I necessarily buy what is being sold.

[bolding mine]

I wonder if JJ will starting throwing Tony under the conspiracy bus soon, as well.

The word "buy" in Tony's post is what troubles me most about this case and has for a few yrs now.

It's like the DA, the police and the media are all trying to "sell" a particular theory to the public.

Why???

[2-B]

The word "buy" in Tony's post is what troubles me most about this case and has for a few yrs now.

It's like the DA, the police and the media are all trying to "sell" a particular theory to the public.

Why???

I think we sometimes like to think the Gricar case is unique, and of course, in many respects, of course it is.

But you know, there are plenty of cases where the DA, the police, and the media have tried to "sell" theories to the public, theories that have wound up having little connection to the actual truth.

Not saying it's right. Just that it happens.

[J. J. in Phila]

One other thing I think JJ ought to look very carefully at in the post from Tony:


[bolding mine]

I wonder if JJ will starting throwing Tony under the conspiracy bus soon, as well.

I'll leave the conspiracy theories to those who specialize in it.

TG's comments speak for himself.

Was TG a person who brought up suicide and the similarities of Lewisburg to the site of Roy Gricar's suicide? Yes.

Do I think that there was good chance that suicide is the explanation? No.


Keeeeeeeeeeep spinning. :lol:

[2-B]

I'll leave the conspiracy theories to those who specialize in it.

TG's comments speak for himself.

Was TG a person who brought up suicide and the similarities of Lewisburg to the site of Roy Gricar's suicide? Yes.

Do I think that there was good chance that suicide is the explanation? No.


Keeeeeeeeeeep spinning. :lol:

As usual, you've entirely missed the point--or deliberately avoided the point.

The portion of TG's post which I bolded indicates he has similar skepticism regarding "what is being sold" as others here when it comes to the computer searches.

You have tried to throw anyone skeptical of "what is being sold" regarding the computer searches under the conspiracy bus.

It must logically follow, then, that you will inevitably throw TG under that conspiracy bus, since he has said about the computer searches being done by Ray but that doesn't mean I necessarily buy what is being sold.

Unless, of course, you want to re-think, re-evaluate, and retract your accusations against posters who have expressed skepticism about the computer searches similar to that which TG has expressed.

This has nothing to do with TG's views on the possibility of Ray committing suicide or his initial reaction to the similarities between the Lewisburg scene and the scene of his father's passing. That's merely red herring stuff you've thrown in.

This example clearly exposes how you use the the labels "conspiracy theory" and "conspiracy theorists" as weapons to hurl at those with whom you disagree when you don't have valid arguments to refute what others are saying. You attack those you disagree with as loony nut cases, trying to paint them as "mental defectives," "potted plants," and dozens of other terms you use to bully and discredit.

Again and again you've raised the computer search discussions as an example of posters trying to "explain away the evidence," of posters appearing to be "conspiracy theorists" to people who read these discussions, and of posters being responsible for somehow forcing the public to adopt the walkaway theory as a result.

Now, when it's clear that Ray Gricar's nephew states a position consistent on that particular point with those you have called "conspiracy theorists" on the issue, you back peddle and muddle:

I'll leave the conspiracy theories to those who specialize in it.

TG's comments speak for himself.


Try some honesty instead.

Either some skepticism about "what is being sold" is logical and valid for everyone who takes that position

OR

Everyone who expresses some skepticism about "what is being sold" is the conspiracy theorist you've painted them as.

It's one of the two. Which would you say it is, JJ?

[J. J. in Phila]

"What is being sold" might be walkaway, not the evidence.

Tell me 2-B, what odds did I give on walkaway before this was announced? What odds did I give on walkaway after this was announced?

[2-B]

"What is being sold" might be walkaway, not the evidence.

Tell me 2-B, what odds did I give on walkaway before this was announced? What odds did I give on walkaway after this was announced?

You didn't answer my question, JJ.

Either some skepticism about "what is being sold" is logical and valid for everyone who takes that position

OR

Everyone who expresses some skepticism about "what is being sold" is the conspiracy theorist you've painted them as.

It's one of the two. Which would you say it is, JJ?

You can figure out what "what is being sold" means from the context of TG's quote.

if the searches were by Ray, it lessens/destroys the foul play angle,

It's the issue of whether the searches were done by Ray himself and whether that determination lessens/destroys the foul play angle.

[2-B]

Bumping to ask again for a response to this question:

You didn't answer my question, JJ.

Quote:
Either some skepticism about "what is being sold" is logical and valid for everyone who takes that position

OR

Everyone who expresses some skepticism about "what is being sold" is the conspiracy theorist you've painted them as.

It's one of the two. Which would you say it is, JJ?

[Politigal]

I'm no conspiracy theorist.

I just think law enforcement did a lousy job in investigating in this case.

And they're playing cya with the media releases they've put out.

[Politigal]

Ok - a new investigation - starting at square one

looking closer at Thursday night, looking closer at the home, at the best friends & co-workers in the courthouse, at other smokers known to PF or RG, at the laptop case & peripherals, re-evaluating the computer forensics, looking at other's hard drives at the courthouse, verifying whereabouts of co-workers that Friday during the timeframe of the call, etc.

what else?

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok - a new investigation - starting at square one

looking closer at Thursday night, looking closer at the home, at the best friends & co-workers in the courthouse, at other smokers known to PF or RG, at the laptop case & peripherals, re-evaluating the computer forensics, looking at other's hard drives at the courthouse, verifying whereabouts of co-workers that Friday during the timeframe of the call, etc.

what else?


Forensic audit going back before his divorce.

Car purchased in Lewisburg, car purchases rental of the Inner Circle.

Look at the swamp across the river.

[2-B]

Ok - a new investigation - starting at square one

looking closer at Thursday night, looking closer at the home, at the best friends & co-workers in the courthouse, at other smokers known to PF or RG, at the laptop case & peripherals, re-evaluating the computer forensics, looking at other's hard drives at the courthouse, verifying whereabouts of co-workers that Friday during the timeframe of the call, etc.

what else?


Who specifically did RG ask about software to wipe a hard drive clean?

Who else may have overheard that conversation?

Other than PF and RG, who had keys to the house where they lived?

In the six weeks to two months prior to RG's disappearance, who besides PF and RG had been in the house?

Starting with the inner circle and moving outward in coincentric circles, did anyone connected with RG show any changes in behavior or mood coinciding with the time period RG's reportedly showed a change in mood?

Looking at RG's call patterns on his office phone, his home land line, and his cell phone in the six weeks to two months prior to the disappearance, were there any changes in his typical call patterns to people? Anyone who called him or whom he called more often than usual or with whom he talked longer than he typically did prior to that time period?

I'm sure I have more.

[sherrijean981]

Who specifically did RG ask about software to wipe a hard drive clean?

Who else may have overheard that conversation?

Other than PF and RG, who had keys to the house where they lived?

In the six weeks to two months prior to RG's disappearance, who besides PF and RG had been in the house?

Starting with the inner circle and moving outward in coincentric circles, did anyone connected with RG show any changes in behavior or mood coinciding with the time period RG's reportedly showed a change in mood?

Looking at RG's call patterns on his office phone, his home land line, and his cell phone in the six weeks to two months prior to the disappearance, were there any changes in his typical call patterns to people? Anyone who called him or whom he called more often than usual or with whom he talked longer than he typically did prior to that time period?

I'm sure I have more.


A lot of good things coming from you and JJ. Why don't the 2 of you get together with some of the others and make a list, that can then go to SPM and Det. Matt Rickard, to start a new investigation and questioning all those not previously questioned. If anyone can come up with a list, there are, JJ, Pgal, 2-B, LW, gstickley, and a few more not listed, plus going back over the forum threads with questions. A list without personal feelings coming through on the case.
JMO

[Politigal]

Who suggested or planted a bug about the lady smoker..

What or who led Zaccagni to think he was off on a wild weekend..

Why did it take so long for the computer searches to be noticed...

[J. J. in Phila]

There were at least two separate conversations about the erasure.

One of those two involved someone not on the office staff (past or current), not the county IT guy, not EW, and not TG. It was with someone known to RFG. That is all the light I can shed on that issue on a message board. The second one could have been with someone in that group, however.

Someone made the connection between the first witness sighting and the old friend, "Mary." The police had that on 4/16/05. "Mary" was known to have been a smoker. My guess is SS, as "Mary" predated PEF and EG. Mary was out of the area in the mid-1990's.

The local calls would not produce a record, unless it was on the cell phone. I am wondering, however, if there were any long distance calls from Lewisburg or vicinity to the Courthouse on 4/15/05.

The searches seemed to have been from the PSP-CIA review. That was something missed and corrected.

As for mood changes from others, none that I've heard of. Keys and house access are unknown to me.

[2-B]

There were at least two separate conversations about the erasure.

One of those two involved someone not on the office staff (past or current), not the county IT guy, not EW, and not TG. It was with someone known to RFG. That is all the light I can shed on that issue on a message board. The second one could have been with someone in that group, however.

Someone made the connection between the first witness sighting and the old friend, "Mary." The police had that on 4/16/05. "Mary" was known to have been a smoker. My guess is SS, as "Mary" predated PEF and EG. Mary was out of the area in the mid-1990's.

The local calls would not produce a record, unless it was on the cell phone. I am wondering, however, if there were any long distance calls from Lewisburg or vicinity to the Courthouse on 4/15/05.

The searches seemed to have been from the PSP-CIA review. That was something missed and corrected.

As for mood changes from others, none that I've heard of. Keys and house access are unknown to me.

I believe the point of Pgal's original "new investigation" post was to gather questions useful to a "new investigation," useful to a fresh start or a to a fresh set of eyes looking at this case--not to have board members (or a given board member) attempt to answer any of these questions (based on incomplete information gathered from outside the investigation itself).

For example, I have very specific reasons for asking about who RG asked about the erasure software and who might have overheard the conversation. I'm not looking for a partially informed answer for myself. I'm interested in LE picking up on why I've asked the questions I have and hoping that someone will run with it, investigating that angle further.

The same is true for each question I've asked. It's not that I'm seeking anyone here to answer it. I'm hoping LE will find the questions useful in some way.

So let's keep the focus on doing something useful here rather than on ego building.

What specific suggestions for a "new investigation" can we build into a list? What questions would be on that list and what ideas for areas to investigate would we include?

Side note: on the issue of call records, you might remember this was discussed at length on the board previously. What's called Local Usage Details, or LUD's, are kept by phone companies for local calls. LE can obtain these records. From what I understand, in recent years, it's become easier for account owners to obtain at least the previous 3-6 months worth of these records without any kind of court order as well.

[J. J. in Phila]

2-B, that "new investigation" was done. MTM isn't releasing it.

[sherrijean981]

I believe the point of Pgal's original "new investigation" post was to gather questions useful to a "new investigation," useful to a fresh start or a to a fresh set of eyes looking at this case--not to have board members (or a given board member) attempt to answer any of these questions (based on incomplete information gathered from outside the investigation itself).

For example, I have very specific reasons for asking about who RG asked about the erasure software and who might have overheard the conversation. I'm not looking for a partially informed answer for myself. I'm interested in LE picking up on why I've asked the questions I have and hoping that someone will run with it, investigating that angle further.

The same is true for each question I've asked. It's not that I'm seeking anyone here to answer it. I'm hoping LE will find the questions useful in some way.

So let's keep the focus on doing something useful here rather than on ego building.

What specific suggestions for a "new investigation" can we build into a list? What questions would be on that list and what ideas for areas to investigate would we include?

Side note: on the issue of call records, you might remember this was discussed at length on the board previously. What's called Local Usage Details, or LUD's, are kept by phone companies for local calls. LE can obtain these records. From what I understand, in recent years, it's become easier for account owners to obtain at least the previous 3-6 months worth of these records without any kind of court order as well.


Would LE have checked the office phone records for any long distance phone calls RG would have made out of the office? Are all area's of Centre County local calls or are some still long distance, Woodward, Millheim, Aaronsburg or Rebersburg? Any case names listed on those phone calls during the last days of RG being in the office, from those areas? During evening hours or Thursday night?

[J. J. in Phila]

Would LE have checked the office phone records for any long distance phone calls RG would have made out of the office? Are all area's of Centre County local calls or are some still long distance, Woodward, Millheim, Aaronsburg or Rebersburg? Any case names listed on those phone calls during the last days of RG being in the office, from those areas? During evening hours or Thursday night?

The cell and home records could be checked (and may have been). They said they didn't find anything.

The office might be a problem, because of the trunk line situation.

[2-B]

For the record, I'm most interested in local calls (though not to the exclusion of long distance calls) in the weeks and months preceding the disappearance. It would be a change in calling/receiving patterns I'd be most interested in, whether calls to any party happened more frequently than usual or whether calls lasted longer than usual as the time of the disappearance drew near.

JJ, I know MM did his version of a "new" investigation. Clearly, that has left us still with three theories, according to statements made at the fourth anniversary. Clearly, a "new" new investigation is needed, which I believe is Pgal's point in bringing this topic forward again. Otherwise, we wouldn't still be stuck with the "three theories" repetition.

[J. J. in Phila]

For the record, I'm most interested in local calls (though not to the exclusion of long distance calls) in the weeks and months preceding the disappearance. It would be a change in calling/receiving patterns I'd be most interested in, whether calls to any party happened more frequently than usual or whether calls lasted longer than usual as the time of the disappearance drew near.

JJ, I know MM did his version of a "new" investigation. Clearly, that has left us still with three theories, according to statements made at the fourth anniversary. Clearly, a "new" new investigation is needed, which I believe is Pgal's point in bringing this topic forward again. Otherwise, we wouldn't still be stuck with the "three theories" repetition.

That investigation, as has been seen, did produce some new thing, but we don't know what they concluded or suggested.

This is MM's baby; he ordered it and he knows the results. He just isn't telling us. Two of those three theories might go down because of that.

[2-B]

That investigation, as has been seen, did produce some new thing, but we don't know what they concluded or suggested.

This is MM's baby; he ordered it and he knows the results. He just isn't telling us. Two of those three theories might go down because of that.

This was MR's statement as of April 2009:

“This information [the computer search revelation] is very important to the investigation,” Rickard said. “It, [the computer search revelation] in and of itself, focuses on the possibility of walkaway or suicide. However, it certainly does not eliminate the possibility of homicide.”

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1228995.html#ixzz0UjJYL1sw

The same article also says

The theory of foul play, along with two others — that Gricar walked away from his life or committed suicide — are continually debated by those who knew him, those assigned to investigate him, and those just fascinated by the mystery of his disappearance.

and

Authorities say they remain stumped by the four-year-old case.

[bolding mine]

If forward movement resulted from the previous "new" investigation, it's not evident in those "stumped" authorities referenced at the four year mark.

More than seven months ago, your buddy Willoughby declared the beginning of the "endgame" in the Gricar case. For months thereafter, we heard rumblings of something about to break, "near the anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg," then "this summer," then "later this summer," and on and on. We've already had nine (albeit early) inches of snow on Mt. Nittany.

If there's now going to be an October surprise in the Gricar case, there are only 8 1/2 days left.

[J. J. in Phila]

I thought it would be seeing some more over the summer or into the fall. Maybe the situation changed, with someone pointing out the patterns of MTM.

[Politigal]

This was MR's statement as of April 2009:

“This information [the computer search revelation] is very important to the investigation,” Rickard said. “It, [the computer search revelation] in and of itself, focuses on the possibility of walkaway or suicide. However, it certainly does not eliminate the possibility of homicide.”

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1228995.html#ixzz0UjJYL1sw

The same article also says

The theory of foul play, along with two others — that Gricar walked away from his life or committed suicide — are continually debated by those who knew him, those assigned to investigate him, and those just fascinated by the mystery of his disappearance.

and

Authorities say they remain stumped by the four-year-old case.

[bolding mine]

If forward movement resulted from the previous "new" investigation, it's not evident in those "stumped" authorities referenced at the four year mark.

More than seven months ago, your buddy Willoughby declared the beginning of the "endgame" in the Gricar case. For months thereafter, we heard rumblings of something about to break, "near the anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg," then "this summer," then "later this summer," and on and on. We've already had nine (albeit early) inches of snow on Mt. Nittany.

If there's now going to be an October surprise in the Gricar case, there are only 8 1/2 days left.

it was all hot air IMO

[2-B]

it was all hot air IMO

That's what I think, hot air, followed by some significant back-pedaling above.

Wonder if you could get a hot air balloon to take off with significant back-pedaling?

[J. J. in Phila]

That's what I think, hot air, followed by some significant back-pedaling above.

Wonder if you could get a hot air balloon to take off with significant back-pedaling?

Here is a question. Could MTM be trying to protect RFG?

[Politigal]

Here is a question. Could MTM be trying to protect RFG?

from what?

[2-B]

from what?

I had the same question, Pgal.

Doesn't this go back to some kind of government protection for Gricar?

I've said in the past there are only limited ways I could see RG "walking away."

One circumstance would have been some kind of fugue state, but the length of time RG has been gone almost surely precludes that at this point. Most people with a fugue state are found wandering into a hospital, church, or some kind of sanctuary within months of a disappearance.

The other circumstance I said I could see would be some kind of situation where RG had been threatened or his loved ones threatened and the need to disappear arose--though I always said I couldn't really envision how that might play out in such a way that local authorities would be "duped" into playing along with the ruse. If that's what JJ has in mind, I'm not really seeing it. All the money, time, and effort spent on searching for RG while MM protects him?

[J. J. in Phila]

from what?

A perceived scandal.

Perhaps MTM thought that whatever it was would change the impression that RFG is:

an upstanding man - an ethical & honest man - a dedicated man - and a loving father.

and


This man would *not* put his loved ones through the tragedy of another suicide in the family. He experienced that grief first hand when his brother died.

http://tiny.cc/Q41Gl

It just might be incompetence of MTM's part, but I'd like "fresh set of eyes."

[Politigal]

It's early, but we've seen no public movement from SPM. This is just a reminder that we are watching ... and waiting. The "weight", and our "wait", is now on YOU. Do whatever you can ... and TIA.

I'm anxious to see if SPM makes any public announcements on the case - whether it be about missed leads, persons of interest, etc. I'd also like to see her go to bat for RG's character (that's besmirched daily......you know where.)

[Politigal]

J.J. and company have certainly projected an image that besmirches RG's character. Be that is it may ... it's on them.

I'm also anxious to see if SPM can make a difference, after all this time. But I was not encouraged by TG's last PM to me ... which, BTW, had nothing to do with SPM (coming way before she announced her candidacy). Unlike with MM (who walked the walk but never talked the talk), I have an abiding faith in SPM. If she says every rock has been unturned, it's done ... and I'm out of here!! I didn't even think I would still be here, post election ... it's just been too much crap to want to stay.

I rec'd a pm from Tony the night of the election. I think he was pleased with the outcome.

I think we're *all* putting a lot of hope into whatever SPM can do.

[J. J. in Phila]

J.J. and company have certainly projected an image that besmirches RG's character. Be that is it may ... it's on them.

I'm also anxious to see if SPM can make a difference, after all this time. But I was not encouraged by TG's last PM to me ... which, BTW, had nothing to do with SPM (coming way before she announced her candidacy). Unlike with MM (who walked the walk but never talked the talk), I have an abiding faith in SPM. If she says every rock has been unturned, it's done ... and I'm out of here!! I didn't even think I would still be here, post election ... it's just been too much crap to want to stay.


I would not say that any of my, Mr. Buehner's, or Tokuen's comments "besmirches" RFG. Sorry, RFG was seen with a woman, so the possibility that he was with a woman on 4/15/05 must be considered. The witness might be wrong, but the witness might be right. You really can't say, **I don't like it** and pretend the possibility doesn't exist, and then complain that there is no solution.

You may want RFG to have died at the hands of thugs, or someone with a grudge and associated with a case he prosecuted, or some favored suspect, but that may not have happened. I certainly have not seen any evidence of those things, but I'd be open to evidence pointing to it.

Now, at the end of the day, RFG might be revealed not to be perfect, but discovering the imperfection might lead to a solution, or even to a killer. Either you want a solution, or you don't. You have to realize that the solution may not be one that you would prefer. I've realized that every day.

[2-B]

I would not say that any of my, Mr. Buehner's, or Tokuen's comments "besmirches" RFG. Sorry, RFG was seen with a woman, so the possibility that he was with a woman on 4/15/05 must be considered. The witness might be wrong, but the witness might be right. You really can't say, **I don't like it** and pretend the possibility doesn't exist, and then complain that there is no solution.

You are right that nothing BB or Tokuen has said besmirches Ray Gricar. You, JJ, are a horse of a different color.

You may want RFG to have died at the hands of thugs, or someone with a grudge and associated with a case he prosecuted, or some favored suspect, but that may not have happened. I certainly have not seen any evidence of those things, but I'd be open to evidence pointing to it.

No one here wants Ray Gricar to have died, period. Your fellow board members aren't morons who select a preferred method of death/suspect in a death without looking for evidence; we interpret what little existing evidence there is differently than you do. Some of us even try to do that without cherry picking and twisting the existing evidence.

And as you examine your "RG died in the heat of passion like Rockefeller" theory, keep this in mind: there is no EVIDENCE that Ray Gricar was seeing any woman other than Patty Fornicola. There is only a witness report which the police describe thusly:

Gricar and the woman were walking through the market, but there was no physical contact between them, the witness reported. Weaver said police have no idea who the woman is, what her relationship with Gricar was or even if she actually exists. It's possible, he said, that she was simply another shopper at the mall who kept bumping into Gricar, and who had no idea who he was.

Police aren't even certain the man was Gricar.

CDT 5/11/2006

[J. J. in Phila]

You know who very strongly suggested to check motels, 2-B? Bob Buehner. You know who mentioned RFG "courting," and I love that term? Tokuen.

BB knew RFG is a social setting, away from the office, and he's raised the possibility of RFG not only being with a woman but checking into a motel with the woman, letting the woman sign the register.

Maybe it didn't happen, but maybe it, or something like it, did.

There is also a witness that saw RFG with a woman. Maybe the witness is wrong, but maybe the witness is right.

Maybe RFG was someplace in the presence of this woman, and something happened. It could have been an argument, or someone with a grudge that really wanted to see him dead. It could have been something accidental or health related.

All of those things are possibilities.

And yes, 2-B, because you don't like the image of RFG possibly being unfaithful, you try to dismiss it. I'm not overjoyed with the possibility, but I have to admit, with the scant evidence, it is possible. And I note that that there is some evidence against it as well.

One of the interesting problems is, when you try to dismiss foul play, and the Rockefeller scenario is foul play, you rapidly come back to walkaway.

[2-B]

You know who very strongly suggested to check motels, 2-B? Bob Buehner. You know who mentioned RFG "courting," and I love that term? Tokuen.

BB knew RFG is a social setting, away from the office, and he's raised the possibility of RFG not only being with a woman but checking into a motel with the woman, letting the woman sign the register.

BB suggested checking motel registers based on a possible sighting of Gricar with a woman. That's reasonable police work.

Tokuen mentioned that RG had courted several women. (Show me any heterosexual 59-year-old man who has not courted several women.)

Nothing either has said besmirches RG.

As for the Rockefeller scenario, it's simply one more case of you projecting fantasies.

It assumes Gricar was romantically involved with a woman other than PF.
It assumes Gricar was in Lewisburg.
It assumes Gricar was there with a woman, and with her romantically and sexually.
It assumes he died in the course of a romantic tryst.
It assumes the woman, whomever she might be, rather than calling 911, covered up the death, removed RG's body from wherever the tryst took place and hid the body.
It assumes she has remained silent for almost five years.

There is, of course, no objective evidence for any of these assumptions.

[J. J. in Phila]

Buehner said:

It was reported that he was seen with or talking to a female and that those two could have been together. This scenario begs the obvious question: where did Ray spend Friday night? I do not believe that Ray would, if he were staying in a nearby hotel/motel with a female, register in his own name. This is because he was already in a serious relationship with Patty Fornicola and did not return home to her in Bellefonte on April 15, 2005.

It is one of those things that is good police work, like considering the possibility that RFG spent Friday night in a motel with a woman other than PEF.

I've actually didn't assume he died during a tryst. I said "while ith a lover."

As pointed out there is evidence that RFG was in Lewisburg, and evidence that he was in the company of LMW. Those two points are there, but the question, as can seen, was raised, rather bluntly.

There is no evidence of a body, and Tokuen, interestingly, just made reference to the remains on another thread:

For me, it is more rewarding and easier for me to keep my sanity to try to figure out the meaning of the DA's computer in a certain part of the river, why his cell phone was in his car, or if foul play occurred, where his remains might be. This is where boards like this can help challenge my ideas and learn from others. --Scott (Slamdunk - 8/12/05).

I do assume that if RFG's death was foul play, someone has kept quite for nearly five years, and that they didn't call 911 when it happened. It seems a bit Madeira-like to assume that if this was foul play , the perpetrator would knock on door of the DA's Office.

[2-B]

It is one of those things that is good police work, like considering the possibility that RFG spent Friday night in a motel with a woman other than PEF.

That's exactly what I said. Harrumph.

I've actually didn't assume he died during a tryst. I said "while ith a lover."

Apparently you don't know what a tryst is.

tryst (trst)
n.
1. An agreement, as between lovers, to meet at a certain time and place.
2. A meeting or meeting place that has been agreed on. See Synonyms at engagement.
intr.v. tryst·ed, tryst·ing, trysts
To keep a tryst.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tryst

As pointed out there is evidence that RFG was in Lewisburg, and evidence that he was in the company of LMW.

In your parallel universe.

In reality, there is no objective evidence of these things.


I do assume that if RFG's death was foul play, someone has kept quite for nearly five years, and that they didn't call 911 when it happened. It seems a bit Madeira-like to assume that if this was foul play , the perpetrator would knock on door of the DA's Office.

And this is a very different scenario than assuming that a lover would fail to call 911, then hide the body and keep quiet for five years.

Murderers generally want to keep the death and their involvement in it quiet. Lovers whose partners die in their company generally call 911.

[2-B]

There were a number of sightings of Morgan Harrington, some as recent as Christmas Eve. Were they "evidence" that Morgan was still alive at the end of December?

No. Police now believe that Morgan died before the Metallica concert was even concluded on the night she disappeared outside the arena where the concert was being held.

Let's not try to turn Ray Gricar sightings into "evidence" that Ray was in Lewisburg, at least not until LE can confirm any of those sightings. All remain unconfirmed.

[J. J. in Phila]

Did it occure to you that whatever happened happened after the meeting, but while they were together.

Well, I'm glad you now admit that it is "good police work" to consider this possibility.

BTW: "Objective" isn't a standard needed in court. Much evidence presented isn't objective. :rolleyes:

[2-B]

Did it occure to you that whatever happened happened after the meeting, but while they were together.

That's not your Rockefeller scenario, which I was referring to.

Well, I'm glad you now admit that it is "good police work" to consider this possibility.

I never said that it wasn't.

BTW: "Objective" isn't a standard needed in court. Much evidence presented isn't objective. :rolleyes:

Hard evidence, objective evidence is what makes a case. The minute one side or the other presents subjective evidence, it can be decimated by hard evidence or other strategies from the other side. Solid hard evidence is much harder to decimate, unless you're dealing with the O.J. criminal jury.

[J. J. in Phila]

2-B, one possibility is an accident, RFG falls and hit his head; all those things are included. :rolleyes:

"Objective" isn't used as a type of evidence. "Direct" and "indirect" are types of evidence; both put RFG in Lewisburg on 4/15/05.

[Politigal]

snipped

Let's not try to turn Ray Gricar sightings into "evidence" that Ray was in Lewisburg, at least not until LE can confirm any of those sightings. All remain unconfirmed.


JJ just continues to have a mental block on this point.

I wonder why :shrug:

[2-B]

"Objective" isn't used as a type of evidence. "Direct" and "indirect" are types of evidence; both put RFG in Lewisburg on 4/15/05.

You seem to have difficulty separating court proceedings from the investigative process, JJ. There may or may not be a trial when someone goes missing.

Yet an investigative process is always necessary when someone goes missing. That means collecting evidence. Forensic science is all about collecting objective evidence. That objective evidence is obviously useful in an investigation and may be used later if a trial ever occurs in an MP case.

So I stand by what I said. There is no objective evidence that RG was in Lewisburg. If you don't like that, argue with forensic science. We're still in that phase in the Gricar case--investigation, not trial.

[J. J. in Phila]

You seem to have difficulty separating court proceedings from the investigative process, JJ. There may or may not be a trial when someone goes missing.

Yet an investigative process is always necessary when someone goes missing. That means collecting evidence. Forensic science is all about collecting objective evidence. That objective evidence is obviously useful in an investigation and may be used later if a trial ever occurs in an MP case.

So I stand by what I said. There is no objective evidence that RG was in Lewisburg. If you don't like that, argue with forensic science. We're still in that phase in the Gricar case--investigation, not trial.

And 2-B, there is evidence, that would stand up in court, that indicates that RFG was in Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05.

Now, if you was investigative evidence, you have the polygraphs on top of that.

[2-B]

And 2-B, there is evidence, that would stand up in court, that indicates that RFG was in Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05.

Well, it would be admissible in court. Whether it would "stand up" in court is another matter entirely, especially with the push to have experts in witness memory and identification testify at trial given the strides made in understanding that area.

Either which way, there's no objective evidence Gricar was ever in Lewisburg.

When you ignore that reality, you ignore a variety of possible answers to the Ray Gricar disappearance. I guess your recent blog about remaining open and flexible was insincere.

Now, if you was investigative evidence, you have the polygraphs on top of that.

You seem singularly focused on PF. I, on the other hand, am not.

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, it would be admissible in court. Whether it would "stand up" in court is another matter entirely, especially with the push to have experts in witness memory and identification testify at trial given the strides made in understanding that area.


It is enough that veteran prosecutors believe it. I trust them more than I trust you.


Either which way, there's no objective evidence Gricar was ever in Lewisburg.


There is direct and indirect evidence that RFG was in Lewisburg after Noon on 4/15/05. That is what ultimately counts.

When you ignore that reality, you ignore a variety of possible answers to the Ray Gricar disappearance. I guess your recent blog about remaining open and flexible was insincere.



You seem singularly focused on PF. I, on the other hand, am not.

No, in my last five posts, I only mentioned PEF in the context of Buehner's letter. I'm not focusing on her. What is your focus?

What evidence do you have, actual evidence, that RFG was dead prior to noon on 4/15/05? I always ask and never get an answer.

[J. J. in Phila]

DZ, FWIW, stated that he was there and didn't plan to come home that night; he stated it publicly. Weaver stated, publicly, that he suspected RFG used the software on the computer.

Those two things do not walkaway make; they don't rule it out either.

At least one person who is convinced that RFG was murdered thinks he was meeting someone. After looking at the site, and knowing what the Packwood House witnesses reported, I think that is quite possible.

I would add that not everything regarding the Lewisburg witnesses has been reported.

[Politigal]

It's pointless to endlessly argue about whether or not RG ever set foot in Lewisburg on 4/15/05. There's no convincing public evidence he did (Postulate Number One) and there's no convincing public evidence he didn't. The fact that LE has never publicly said RG positively was there speaks to that unresolved problem.

Personally, I choose to believe he was there ... because otherwise the pausible scenarios go way down. For instance, I understand why PF is still suspected of some complicity. But where am I suppose to go with that? Nothing I could have said way back when, or could say now, would have any significance.

But, since it's Friday, I have another bone to pick. It's been asserted here that there were probably lots of middle-aged "blues" walking around Lewisburg because it was parents weekend at Bucknell. I don't believe it was parents weekend. The only particular attraction I could find was the Bison Outdoor Classic.

That's an annual co-ed track and field event. In 2005 it attracted teams from nearly 40 colleges and universities ... over a thousand participants from a wide geographic area. The events were held Friday afternoon and evening and all day Saturday.

With respect to following a child's collegiate sports activity ... I've been there and done that. Many of those athletes and support staff would surely have taken up rooms in the Lewisburg area Friday night. So might have visiting parents, etc.

But the only record I could find online suggests that there were few non-student spectators in the stands. Still it would only take one ... thinking about a possible draw for RG to have visted Lewisburg at that time. Don't know. I could never match up any of the names. Just another dead end ... I suppose.

Tony Gricar is the one that posted for *us* to keep in mind that it was parent's weekend....

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:0pjCjCLLQLsJ:boards.insessiontrials .com/printthread.php%3Fs%3D2dfe60f434543d722db18e565fd7 1c2e%26threadid%3D317782%26perpage%3D40%26pagenumb er%3D7+tonygricar+bucknell&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

tonyGricar 02-15-2008 01:20 AM
Originally posted by logicworks Just one more question about it........It has always bugged me that it almost seemed TOO fortuitous in so far as the investigation. Have you ever thought it may have been a 'trump' card to stall things. It has always appeared that way to me......a known beforehand hinderance.........No need to answer if you are not comfortable. I am just telling you what it looks like to me, and of course, JMO. [/*]Not so much to me. There have been just as reliable (meaning "not so much"), far stranger, "tips" that have come in that could have further been used as a stall, derailer, or trump. This is one where a woman's description was given and some felt that it was a match for a friend of his. It was immediately checked out, and that was it.

Keep in mind that it was parent's weekend at Bucknell. On those weekends, or any midwest or east coast college town, you can't walk 50 feet through town without tripping over people of their same description. Now, if you said there was a brunette in Austin, Texas, I might have given pause...

Now, do I think that there's validity to the SOS witness? Who knows? Something was up that day(s). Ray is not here now. Anything could have happened. I've never closed my mind to any scenario, but I need more than uncorroborated accounts. Physical evidence, paper trail, something...

[2-B]

tonyGricar 02-15-2008 01:20 AM
[snip] Ray is not here now. Anything could have happened. I've never closed my mind to any scenario, but I need more than uncorroborated accounts. Physical evidence, paper trail, something...

Bolding mine.

I'm with Tony on this statement.

It's actually the entire reason for the debate over RG's presence or lack thereof in Lewisburg.

For me, it's never been a matter of arguing that RG was NOT in Lewisburg. It's been a matter of refuting the unsupported, uncorroborated claim we've seen here over and over that RG HAD to have been in Lewisburg (so that, ergo, any and all scenarios regarding what happened to him must therefore flow from that certainty). I have always said RG may have been there, he may not have been there, and we don't have the evidence to say for certain either way.

As for whether it was Parents' Weekend or Alumni Weekend or whatever, TG mentioned on more than one occasion that something was going on in Lewisburg the weekend RG disappeared.

Whether there was some event that drew middle-aged people to town isn't one of the major factors in terms of potential for witness misidentification.

DZ himself conceded that he did not seek advice on handling witness sightings until the Michigan sighting in May. The Lewisburg witnesses weren't handled with blind administrators (DZ himself questioned at least some of them) and the witnesses weren't shown sequential line-ups of various people, only one of whom was RG.

Of all the factors police can control in witness identifications, those two factors have been identified as having the greatest impact on whether the identifications will be accurate.

It may not have mattered whether there were two or twenty or two hundred middle-aged men hanging around the SOS that weekend.

[Politigal]

I knew that. But parents weekend at Bucknell is in October. That's why I wondered about the track meet names ... you know ... from a recreational poster's point of view, standing in the corner so as not to be trampled by the elephants. Maybe some of you others can give it a go.

The schedule: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/buck/sports/w-swim/auto_pdf/4-15-16-051.pdf
The guys: http://www.bucknellbison.com/sports/m-track/stats/2004-2005/mensresults.html
The girls: http://www.bucknellbison.com/sports/w-track/stats/2004-2005/womensresults.html
Some track pics from Saturday: http://good-times.webshots.com/album/323789488DYEYop

I really wasn't disagreeing with you....just puzzled why Tony would write that if it wasn't the case....but maybe he was just speaking in general about middle aged men wearing blue jackets.

[Politigal]

here's one Bucknell event that began Friday

Art gallery annual student show

http://www.bucknell.edu/x22072.xml

[Politigal]

snipped

I would add that not everything regarding the Lewisburg witnesses has been reported.

It doesn't matter one whit what *any* of the witnesses said or reported....because Police have said none were confirmed sightings.

Will that ever sink in with you?

[gstickley]

It doesn't matter one whit what *any* of the witnesses said or reported....because Police have said none were confirmed sightings.

Will that ever sink in with you?

Maybe the poster hasn't read the BPD Missing Person Flyer (which I've posted forty-eleven times). Oh, well, we'll try it again.


The following is the official Missing Person Flier from the Bellefonte PD from 2007, 2 yrs. after RG's disappearance. The contents were updated in July 2009. Please note what has been highlighted in red (by me). The flyer definitely doesn't mention RG disappearing from Lewisburg either.

MISSING PERSON
RAY FRANK GRICAR
[[COLOR="Red"]Last Seen April 15, 2005 Bellefonte, Pennsylvania

DESCRIPTION
Date of Birth: October 9, 1945 Place of Birth: Cleveland, Ohio
Sex: Male Race: White
Hair: Brown (Graying) Eyes: Green
Height 6’0” Weight: 170 pounds

DETAILS

For almost twenty years, Ray Frank Gricar has served as the District Attorney for Center County, Pennsylvania. On the morning of April 15, 2005, he called his girlfriend and told her that he was going to go for a drive in his red and white Mini Cooper along state Route 192 in Penns Valley, Pennsylvania. He was reported missing when he did not return. The car was located in a parking lot in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, near the Susquehanna River, on April 16, 2005; however, Gricar has not been located.

Ray Gricar may also use the names Ray Lange or Ray Gray. He was last seen wearing a blue fleece jacket, jeans, and tennis shoes. He has ties to Ohio and California. [COLOR="Red"]"][COLOR="red"]There have been “sightings" of Ray over the past two years unconfirmed). COLOR]
We are requesting that law enforcement agencies provide this information to their patrol officers, and check local homeless shelters and rest areas where applicable. Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Any positive information can be directed to Detective Matt Rickard, Bellefonte Borough Police Department @ 814-353-2320 Office 814-353-2318 Fax or by email @ mrickard@bellefonte.net

[DOC] gricar-flyer-2007
26k - Microsoft Word - View as html
...bellefonte.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/gricar-flyer-2007.doc

[J. J. in Phila]

I know what you have heard and believe. All I'm suggesting to you, as a friend, is to be more critical. This "story" has not nearly yet been written.

Oh, I am, until the theory involves violating the laws of physics.

I do also have to consider that BB, DZ and SW are right.

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe the poster hasn't read the BPD Missing Person Flyer (which I've posted forty-eleven times). Oh, well, we'll try it again.


The following is the official Missing Person Flier from the Bellefonte PD from 2007, 2 yrs. after RG's disappearance. The contents were updated in July 2009. Please note what has been highlighted in red (by me). The flyer definitely doesn't mention RG disappearing from Lewisburg either.

MISSING PERSON
RAY FRANK GRICAR
[[COLOR="Red"]Last Seen April 15, 2005 Bellefonte, Pennsylvania

DESCRIPTION
Date of Birth: October 9, 1945 Place of Birth: Cleveland, Ohio
Sex: Male Race: White
Hair: Brown (Graying) Eyes: Green
Height 6’0” Weight: 170 pounds

DETAILS

For almost twenty years, Ray Frank Gricar has served as the District Attorney for Center County, Pennsylvania. On the morning of April 15, 2005, he called his girlfriend and told her that he was going to go for a drive in his red and white Mini Cooper along state Route 192 in Penns Valley, Pennsylvania. He was reported missing when he did not return. The car was located in a parking lot in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, near the Susquehanna River, on April 16, 2005; however, Gricar has not been located.

Ray Gricar may also use the names Ray Lange or Ray Gray. He was last seen wearing a blue fleece jacket, jeans, and tennis shoes. He has ties to Ohio and California. [COLOR="Red"]"][COLOR="red"]There have been “sightings" of Ray over the past two years unconfirmed). COLOR]
We are requesting that law enforcement agencies provide this information to their patrol officers, and check local homeless shelters and rest areas where applicable. Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Any positive information can be directed to Detective Matt Rickard, Bellefonte Borough Police Department @ 814-353-2320 Office 814-353-2318 Fax or by email @ mrickard@bellefonte.net

[DOC] gricar-flyer-2007
26k - Microsoft Word - View as html
...bellefonte.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/gricar-flyer-2007.doc

Thank you for pointing out that flyer says he was alive on 4/15/05 at the time he made the phone call.

[2-B]

Police can't confirm whether Gricar made the call. They're going by PF's account of events. And yes, JJ, there was a poly, but a poly measures heart rate, blood pressure, etc. It doesn't measure truthfulness. If it did, polygraphs would not only be admissible in court; they could replace court.

It's possible he may have made the call. But even if that it true, it does not begin to approach corroboration or confirmation that RG ever arrived in Lewisburg.

[gstickley]

And, since RG was last seen in Bellefonte on 04/15, that pretty well eliminates the so-called "witnesses" on 04/16 in Lewisburg or any so-called "witnesses" thereafter.

[Politigal]

And, since RG was last seen in Bellefonte on 04/15, that pretty well eliminates the so-called "witnesses" on 04/16 in Lewisburg or any so-called "witnesses" thereafter.

Score for GS :)

[SuperKyle]

I just got a weird feeling in the pit of my stomach and had to come here to the Ray Gricar inspectors :biggrin:

Aside from the only EXTREMELY believable sighting of Mr. Gricar being on the 15 by one of the people he worked with, it is possible all of the others were mistaken. And, of course there is the possibility that this witness was mistaken by date or by person. It is possible... I'm coming to realize :unsure:

But, dag gonnit if this whole thing doesn't rest right on top of whether or not Ray Gricar actually made that phone call. And it was more interesting to think that she couldn't think of any clothing that was missing, as if maybe possibly something happened in his sleeping clothes, so surely nothing would be missing from the closet. She did pass a detector, and the fact that she took one says something, but when I think about that phone call now, I get a very eerie feeling.

I KNOW ITS PROBABLY BEEN SAID BEFORE, BUT WAS IT NORMAL FOR HIM TO CALL HER WHEN NOT COMING IN? Doesn't sound very professional unless she was his personal secretary... I'm more confused than ever, and yesterday my world seemed so sure :mad:

[gstickley]

I just got a weird feeling in the pit of my stomach and had to come here to the Ray Gricar inspectors :biggrin:

Aside from the only EXTREMELY believable sighting of Mr. Gricar being on the 15 by one of the people he worked with, it is possible all of the others were mistaken. And, of course there is the possibility that this witness was mistaken by date or by person. It is possible... I'm coming to realize :unsure:
Yep, it's possible.

But, dag gonnit if this whole thing doesn't rest right on top of whether or not Ray Gricar actually made that phone call. And it was more interesting to think that she couldn't think of any clothing that was missing, as if maybe possibly something happened in his sleeping clothes, so surely nothing would be missing from the closet. She did pass a detector, and the fact that she took one says something, but when I think about that phone call now, I get a very eerie feeling.
We only have PF's word that it was RG who made the call; under what circumstances was the call made???

I KNOW ITS PROBABLY BEEN SAID BEFORE, BUT WAS IT NORMAL FOR HIM TO CALL HER WHEN NOT COMING IN? Doesn't sound very professional unless she was his personal secretary... I'm more confused than ever, and yesterday my world seemed so sure :mad:
I don't know, SK.

Whereyabeen, SuperKyle?

[SuperKyle]

Well, I imagine somebody would have said something about that phone call not being ordinary, maybe even the woman who wrote that intense article on the subject.

Oh, and I've been remodeling my house :blink:

Seriously, to me this is key here. This is a cosmic and crucial moment in the investigation. Did Ray make that call?????????

[gstickley]

Well, I imagine somebody would have said something about that phone call not being ordinary, maybe even the woman who wrote that intense article on the subject.

Oh, and I've been remodeling my house :blink:

Seriously, to me this is key here. This is a cosmic and crucial moment in the investigation. Did Ray make that call?????????

We only have PF's word about the call, as well as everything pertaining to RG after 04/14, 9:10 PM. It seems strange that RG, if he were taking off for good on 04/15 (as per the "YITMAMPWT"), would care about the dog enough to call about taking it out.

[2-B]

We only have PF's word about the call, as well as everything pertaining to RG after 04/14, 9:10 PM. It seems strange that RG, if he were taking off for good on 04/15 (as per the "YITMAMPWT"), would care about the dog enough to call about taking it out.

It also seems strange that if he were taking off for good as per the YITMAMPWT that RG would mark his direction of travel. (He not only reportedly told PF he was "on 192" but reportedly called from a cell phone whose location could be traced.)

Why practically point the way to Lewisburg and then (if one were to take the witness accounts as accurate) hang around Lewisburg until at least noon on Saturday?

Why not call PF from the landline at home and say he wouldn't be home in time to take care of the dog? Or point the way west, north, or south?

If RG allegedly spent years planning a Great Escape, that phone call was pretty dumb for a brilliant guy.

[N900AT]

It seems to me that if Ray walked away that he helped remove suspicions by appearing to make normal calls and not act as if he was escaping. By placing his car in a fairly public place and making the call it certainly looked normal. I don't feel that if RG walked away that the decision besmirches his character. Perhaps he had private reasons that involve PF and he didn't want to hold her up to ridicule. Considering that they both worked in the courthouse he simply may have decided that gossip around the workplace wasn't a good idea. He may have decided that life didn't revolve around Bellefonte for him. Unlike many of you I never met or spoke to RG in my life so I don't feel he "owes" anything - even an explanation.

[2-B]

It seems to me that if Ray walked away that he helped remove suspicions by appearing to make normal calls and not act as if he was escaping.

Would there be anything "abnormal" about calling from the landline and telling PF he wouldn't be home at lunch time to take care of the dog? I guess I'm not grasping your point here.

"Hi Patty--I'm getting ready to take off for a drive and won't be here at lunch time to let Honey out. Can you come home to take care of her?"

PF knew RG might "go somewhere"; she'd anticipated that by asking him to let her know if he decided to go anywhere. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see why there'd be anything suspicious about him calling to let her know he was going out for a drive before he left home whether he was a) just going for a drive or b) was planning his Great Escape.



By placing his car in a fairly public place and making the call it certainly looked normal.

Except that the "fairly public place" where the car was placed (you're assuming by RG--not all of us assume that as proven) immediately conjured up the possibility of suicide in TG's mind because of the similarities to his father's disappearance. There's a lot that looks like staging about the car placement to some of us.

And I'm not sure how "normal" things can look to anyone when RG failed to return home that evening at dinner time. PF was already starting to think things weren't "normal" by the time she got home from work and found he wasn't there. The car wasn't found until the following evening, and by then it was pretty clear things weren't exactly "normal." DZ and company may have believed RG was just having a wild weekend, but even if that had been true, it wasn't "normal" fare for Gricar.


I don't feel that if RG walked away that the decision besmirches his character.

You appear to share JJ's take on this, then. Can you explain how--at a minimum--walking out on his remaining responsibilities to his constituents without a letter of resignation and letting taxpayer dollars foot the bill for countless man hours of investigation doesn't conflict with BG's description of RG as "a man of the highest integrity"?

Can you further explain how a man who has already seen his family agonize over a missing person (his own brother) would deliberately inflict the exact same agony on his family for a second time? Unless TG is the best actor in the world, his angst has been palpable and real.

[Cloudbuster]

I just got home (was without power since friday at 9:58pm) so Im kinda not caught up with all the reading. I believe that now that the man behind the curtain is no longer with us, I hope in time that the woman will speak and the others who stood around at the top. Them are not my words, but words I told you about before. God works in mysterious ways as my mom would say. To me the first curtain has fallen and nows a great time to watch this all unravel. I believe things will come out in a trickle down effect. Perhaps then the family can have their long awaited answers. God bless all the family members. They deserve the truth!! I have missed you all!!! I hope everyone is doing okay!!!

[N900AT]

2-B, I just don't feel that phone calls made either way prove much. As for besmiching his character; I don't know why Ray left, in fact the sadness of his brother's death could actually be a motivation. Sometimes people who suffer quietly do strange things and even commit suicide while other family members are forced to endure two tragedies. I don't think Ray owed the county anything. If he left and cost the county money for investigations that's too bad but he served selflessly for so many years, I believe the man had a right to live anonymously if that's what he wanted to do. I still think Ray was hiding something on the laptop and he didn't want to ask anyone how to copy over some stuff and discard the embarassing information. Because the laptop was issued to him, I have a hard time seeing how others were planning to destroy it. I don't know if he had a new love in his life, people do strange things for love. Perhaps he was a victim of a love-triangle involving PF. I don't know, but not knowing him I suspect the easiest-way-for-me-to-explain-it theory. I am very sorry if people who read my opinions and knew Ray feel I am insulting his memory. We must all consider "unlikely scenarios" because unlikely things take place from time to time and this whole event is unlikely from start to finish.

[puzzled]

I spoke with Ray about a year after his brother passed away. He spoke of his brother and you could feel the sadness in his voice. Ray called me...a perfect stranger to him...because my son had passed away. Ray knew my sister. I agree with BG. Any person who does something like that would NEVER EVER put his family through what he had gone through when his brother went missing. I know a little something about integrity and it is very important to me. In fact my son is up in heaven wearing a black shirt that has the word integrity in large letters printed across the back of it. Integrity was extremely important to my son and to Ray. IMO anyone who thinks that Ray walked away from his life and intentionally put his family and friends through this bloody hell is completely and totally delusional. I personally think it is a waste of time to even discuss that possibility. Not Ray...no way ...no how!

[N900AT]

Do people feel that Ray's brother was a truly bad guy because he committed suicide? By putting his family through hell was Ray's brother a thoughless cad with no integrity? Do people think that RG and TG look at things that way? I suggest a little sympathy here. When someone departs his life there has to be sadness and reasons. I didn't know Ray but many of his friends said he seemed disconnected and tired before his disappearance. Whatever happend, I think Ray should be judged on the accomplishments of his entire life.

[gstickley]

Do people feel that Ray's brother was a truly bad guy because he committed suicide? By putting his family through hell was Ray's brother a thoughless cad with no integrity? Do people think that RG and TG look at things that way? I suggest a little sympathy here. When someone departs his life there has to be sadness and reasons. I didn't know Ray but many of his friends said he seemed disconnected and tired before his disappearance. Whatever happend, I think Ray should be judged on the accomplishments of his entire life.

Where are you coming from with the above post??? I don't know about other "people", but I have never seen that any poster on this board has ever thought Roy Gricar was "truly a bad guy because he committed suicide" or a "thoughtless cad with no integrity". Roy Gricar apparently suffered from bi-polar illness. There is no evidence Ray Gricar suffered from any illness.

Are you now suggesting Ray Gricar committed suicide?

The "disconnected and tired before his disappearance" seemed to have begun only a week or two before Ray disappeared. Did you forget about the "shaken baby case" that was impending & important to Ray?

According to many people in addition to PF, Ray Gricar was anticipating his impending retirement, appeared happy, was planning on what he & PF were going to do after his retirement.

I don't know of anyone who doesn't think Ray should be "judged on the
accomplishments of his entire life". That said, there has never been anything to think Ray indulged in the famous "YITMAMPWT" or that he would have just walked out of his life . . . or committed suicide . . . & left people to wonder what happened to him.

There's no more evidence that Ray walked away or commited suicide than he was the victim of foul play. Why do you seem to have a problem with wondering if Ray was the victim of foul play?

[N900AT]

I don't think Ray commited suicide. But if he felt the need to move on I would not consider him a cad or a man without integrity. I was responding to the above posts. Walking away from one's life is a bit of a desperate move. People without mental illness can still do things out of character. I think there were conflicting reports about Ray's mindset leading up to his disappearance. I don't believe that PF beat the polygraph (although I learned Aldrich Ames was able to do it with advice and training from the KGB) so I believe the fact that he just wanted to take a ride and get away from the office shows that he was tired. -- Perhaps everyone on this site should just agree that there's no way that Ray walked away and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional and attacking Ray's memory and no longer welcome.

[N900AT]

gstick' - The reason I think it's more likely that Ray walked away rather than foul play when there's so little evidence either way is that if Ray did walk away you would expect no evidence, but for Ray to be lured into a situation that included murder you would be far more likely to find the body or other evidence. It's not very difficult to disappear. Whitey Bulger has been on the FBI Most Wanted List for more than ten years. It looked to me that Ray's financial status allowed him the financial capability of doing it where most people couldn't do it. - I think I'm just about done sharing my outlook. I've had my say, and not knowing Ray I understand how people who did know him are offended by my outlook. Already it's clear to me that I may be hurting the feelings of anyone else that may be suffereing any kind of family loss. I still would like to see another investigation that considered every posibility. Sometimes looking one way can uncover information about another way.

[2-B]

if Ray did walk away you would expect no evidence

Curious why you assume this, N9. Missing persons' cases tend to prove exactly the opposite.

In case after case of vountary walkaway not due to mental health issues, LE is usually fairly quick to discover evidence of motive for walkaway. We've talked about this many times on the board--how police in other cases typically find early on things like troubled relationships, problems at work, drug or alcohol problems, difficulties with the law like fraud or embezzlement, financial strains, etc.

In nearly five years, no evidence of anything resembling these typical catalysts for walkaway has surfaced in the RG case.

[2-B]

Do people feel that Ray's brother was a truly bad guy because he committed suicide? By putting his family through hell was Ray's brother a thoughless cad with no integrity?

Uh, erm . . . not following you here, N9. You're talking apples and oranges as far as I can see.

Roy had bi-polar disease and was not taking his medication. He was in the grips of a serious mental illness and not responsible for any of his actions. As GS pointed out, no one here has ever suggested Roy was a bad guy or lacked integrity.

I've also seen many posts here allowing that if Ray suffered some mental break down (in the form of a fugue state or other mental problem that surfaced after his last medical checkup), that might have explained his sudden disappearance. To my recollection, no one ever suggested such circumstances would turn Ray into a man with no integrity or send him into S's "cad zone."

What many here do rail against is the infamous YITMAMPWT.

There is no evidence for it. It is in direct conflict with everything known about Ray Gricar's character. And the only motive that has ever been suggested for it (to become a legend) is also in direct conflict with what is known about Ray Gricar's character.

[Politigal]

I don't think Ray commited suicide. But if he felt the need to move on I would not consider him a cad or a man without integrity.
snipped

If Ray walked away though, it goes against every character description that's been given him in the past. Walking away would be cruel, selfish, inconsiderate of others, etc.

here's an older thread where we discussed that --

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=13048937&highlight=adjectives#post13048937

[N900AT]

2-B, You've listed motives not evidence. You're correct to observe that most people leave because of legal problems or otherwise, but those people don't leave just to make a new life - they had to leave. Like I said, if Ray left you wouldn't expect to find evidence. I don't think PF beat the polygraph and so I think Ray did make that drive and I don't see how someone could have simply discovered it and abducted him. I think information on the laptop that he didn't want anyone to see was a motive. I don't think he was about to destroy his laptop and not pass it back in. I think the computer searches were most likely done by Ray. Lastly, he had the financial capability and given his love of travel I think he could simply pull up stakes and go. He didn't own a house and I don't think he was walking away form his daughter or his retirement.

[2-B]

2-B, You've listed motives not evidence.

Actually, I listed evidence of motive, which I think I made quite clear in my post. My apologies if that wasn't clear to you.


You're correct to observe that most people leave because of legal problems or otherwise, but those people don't leave just to make a new life - they had to leave.

Bolding mine.

I'm not sure I understand you here. No one has to walk away from the life they're leading, disappearing from those who love them, their jobs, their communities, etc., simply because they've encountered problems in life.

I guess you're trying to make a distinction between running away from a problem and simply wanting to start a new life. But if Ray simply wanted to start a new life, he would have that opportunity in 8.5 short months upon retirement. He was, in fact, looking forward to that; he described looking forward to a life without alarm clocks and just being able to travel and enjoy things he hadn't had the time to do while working. He wouldn't need to put his family through agony, create a major police investigation into his disappearance, etc. to achieve a new life.

And if he didn't want to wait 8.5 months, he could resign. If he didn't want PF with him, he could break things off with her and leave.


I think information on the laptop that he didn't want anyone to see was a motive.

So now I'm confused. Are you saying you think there was a motive on the laptop separate and apart from the desire to start a new life--something to run away from?

[N900AT]

I can't say what's was on the laptop but I think the laptop and hard drive had some strong connection to this case. I can't imagine how someone could try to abduct both Ray and his laptop. Because the laptop belonged to Ray, I think the strange ending for the laptop convinces me that Ray didn't want anyone to know what was on it. In fact, whoever tossed the laptop and drive the way they did, near where the car was left had strong reasons for doing that and couldn't be sure either would ever be found.

[puzzled]

First of all... I have never said anything negative about Roy Gricar. I myself have had many times when I was so close to suicide that I became very frightened of myself. I understand it and I feel total sympathy and compassion for those who are suicidal. The one thing I have learned is that no matter how badly you feel today...tomorrow things may be a wee bit better. I have also learned to count my blessings and be thankful for all of the wonderful people in my life and for the life that I now have. I am not completely certain that I will never end my own life. I barely survived losing my son. If I should ever lose my daughter......you can forget it. I will not be able to go on...period. I do agree that the laptop had something to do with the case. I think there was info on there about someone. I think Ray had the goods on someone and that he had that info on his laptop. I think this person suspected that Ray had the goods on him and so they followed Ray and kidnapped him /set him up. They got rid of Ray and then later on got rid of the laptop. I do not think Ray killed himself. Other people were involved. Suicide is a very solitary and lonely act. You don't ask your friend to pick you up or meet you so they can help you or watch as you end your life...it just does not happen that way. When I said that Ray would not do this to his family what I meant was he would not walk away nor commit suicide... and leave his family with no answers...he had too much integrity for that. Therefore it is my opinion that Ray was set up and murdered. In my mind it is the only thing that makes sense..and this is what I have said from day one. I pray to God that soon we will have an answer to this God forsaken case. Ray's family and friends deserve closure. May God bless each and every one of them. I hope that no one leaves the board. The more we have the better in my opinion. I hope everyone has a terrific weekend!

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, I imagine somebody would have said something about that phone call not being ordinary, maybe even the woman who wrote that intense article on the subject.

Oh, and I've been remodeling my house :blink:

Seriously, to me this is key here. This is a cosmic and crucial moment in the investigation. Did Ray make that call?????????

The call was from a cell tower and carried by the tower near Rebersburg. LE had that record on 4/16/05.

The thing is, it is consistent, time wise, with the early afternoon sighting in Lewisburg.

Also, since RFG lived with PEF, he wouldn't have to call her to tell her he wouldn't be in that day.

N900AT, LE has never said what they did, or didn't check. I am troubled about the level of scrutiny, or lack thereof, regarding the woman thought to be the Lewisburg Mystery Woman.

[J. J. in Phila]

And, since RG was last seen in Bellefonte on 04/15, that pretty well eliminates the so-called "witnesses" on 04/16 in Lewisburg or any so-called "witnesses" thereafter.

And it destroys any theories that he was dead on 4/14.

[J. J. in Phila]

It also seems strange that if he were taking off for good as per the YITMAMPWT that RG would mark his direction of travel. (He not only reportedly told PF he was "on 192" but reportedly called from a cell phone whose location could be traced.)

Why practically point the way to Lewisburg and then (if one were to take the witness accounts as accurate) hang around Lewisburg until at least noon on Saturday?

Why not call PF from the landline at home and say he wouldn't be home in time to take care of the dog? Or point the way west, north, or south?

If RG allegedly spent years planning a Great Escape, that phone call was pretty dumb for a brilliant guy.

Actually, if it was walkaway, and RFG didn't want to vanish in a car he didn't own, it makes perfect sense. The Mini would eventually be found, but LE would be focusing on the rural areas of Route 192 until then. They could easily assume that he had an accident out of cell range. They would be specifically looking in Lewisburg.

A couple other possibilities:

A. He wasn't planning to go for a drive as long as he did, and was expecting to return by lunchtime.

B. It was just a coincidence that didn't call before he left; he forgot.

C. Maybe he didn't call before he left because he didn't want PEF to say, **Hey, great idea! I'll take the day off and go with you.** (And that could point to several possibilities.)

[J. J. in Phila]

It seems to me that if Ray walked away that he helped remove suspicions by appearing to make normal calls and not act as if he was escaping. By placing his car in a fairly public place and making the call it certainly looked normal. I don't feel that if RG walked away that the decision besmirches his character. Perhaps he had private reasons that involve PF and he didn't want to hold her up to ridicule. Considering that they both worked in the courthouse he simply may have decided that gossip around the workplace wasn't a good idea. He may have decided that life didn't revolve around Bellefonte for him. Unlike many of you I never met or spoke to RG in my life so I don't feel he "owes" anything - even an explanation.

I actually agree. I don't agree with the "runaway bride" analogy; I think there are substantial differences.

[ladyheartfixer]

so.....did the great Mel Wiley ever show up dead or alive...or is he still out there somewhere?

[J. J. in Phila]

Of course there are differences. But there are also similarities ... chief of which is the Internet age (see: Bride, Runaway).

In Mel Wiley's case (ca. 1985) there was a brief investigation ... essentially closed when, scarcely 2 weeks in, the Medina County Detective said Wiley had apparently acted out the last chapter of his book and rode off into the sunset, and that: "He knew I'd be working on the case. He's got to be gloating."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,959737,00.html

But if RG was attempting to emulate Wiley, hoping to create his own "legend", he grossly miscalculated the difference 20 years had made. Because if what we've seen published is left to stand, RG will become the subject of a "public scorn and outrage" Mel Wiley never dreamed of.

I don't agree. I've been looking at the comments on the stories regarding RFG, comments on other message boards, and the comments is the (very different) Nick Francisco case. The criticism of NF is largely that wasn't paying child support.

An element would be in the "public scorn and outrage" category, but it looks like a tiny minority.

LHF, Mel Wiley was never located.

[ladyheartfixer]

ty JJ for a simple answer

[2-B]

I don't agree. I've been looking at the comments on the stories regarding RFG, comments on other message boards, and the comments is the (very different) Nick Francisco case. The criticism of NF is largely that wasn't paying child support.

An element would be in the "public scorn and outrage" category, but it looks like a tiny minority.

You acknowledge that the NF case is very different, then try to use it as a basis of comparison.

What you're not taking into account is this, JJ: the actions and words of NF's wife turned many message board posters against her. I won't go into detail, but if you followed the case from the outset, you'd know why the sympathy went to the children and not to CF, and you might understand why NF received the benefit of the doubt from many observers in the case.

RG would not have those same circumstances working in his favor. TG is correct in his assessment of how the public would tend to view the various outcomes of this case--minus, of course, some mitigating factors that could change how the public would view a walkaway scenario.

I'm afraid you and N9 are likely in the minority when it comes to the "more power to him," "he would owe no explanation," "he would have done nothing morally or ethically wrong" camp. Americans are quick to forgive and to provide second chances. But we like atonement and sincere apology first. As a culture, we don't tend to just say, "So what? That's his/her business." Ask John Edwards.

[2-B]

so.....did the great Mel Wiley ever show up dead or alive...or is he still out there somewhere?

City detective James Bigam had tracked Wiley to the west coast after his disappearance. Bigam said San Francisco would be logical place because Wiley described it as his "mecca."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=igoLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=n1EDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5316,2705783&dq=mel-wiley

FWIW, I don't believe there was ever a face-to-face between Bigam and Wiley to confirm that Wiley was alive and on the west coast.

[J. J. in Phila]

You acknowledge that the NF case is very different, then try to use it as a basis of comparison.

What you're not taking into account is this, JJ: the actions and words of NF's wife turned many message board posters against her. I won't go into detail, but if you followed the case from the outset, you'd know why the sympathy went to the children and not to CF, and you might understand why NF received the benefit of the doubt from many observers in the case.

RG would not have those same circumstances working in his favor. TG is correct in his assessment of how the public would tend to view the various outcomes of this case--minus, of course, some mitigating factors that could change how the public would view a walkaway scenario.

I'm afraid you and N9 are likely in the minority when it comes to the "more power to him," "he would owe no explanation," "he would have done nothing morally or ethically wrong" camp. Americans are quick to forgive and to provide second chances. But we like atonement and sincere apology first. As a culture, we don't tend to just say, "So what? That's his/her business." Ask John Edwards.

I'm not just referring to message boards, or this particular message board. The is very little criticism of NF for walking away; there is criticism for NF leaving behind a pregnant wife and two preteen children and not providing financially for them.

RFG simply does not owe any of the public an explanation if he walked away. They why is a personal issue; unlike John Edwards, RFG wasn't running for anything at the time. He'd said that he was retiring and stated his after office plans. If he walked, he walked, and that is the end of it.

[2-B]

I'm not just referring to message boards, or this particular message board. The is very little criticism of NF for walking away; there is criticism for NF leaving behind a pregnant wife and two preteen children and not providing financially for them.

Well, please make up your mind, JJ. I was responding to this comment where you plainly said

I don't agree. I've been looking at the comments on the stories regarding RFG, comments on other message boards, and the comments is the (very different) Nick Francisco case. The criticism of NF is largely that wasn't paying child support.

From what source are you deriving the sense of public sentiment re the NF case if not comments by the public?


RFG simply does not owe any of the public an explanation if he walked away. They why is a personal issue; unlike John Edwards, RFG wasn't running for anything at the time. He'd said that he was retiring and stated his after office plans. If he walked, he walked, and that is the end of it.

All irrelevant to the point I was making. Edwards was merely a single example I used to demonstrate that the American people, as a culture, will give second chances and forgive IF they get what they perceive to be a sincere apology and what they perceive to be an understanding on the part of the wrong-doer that wrong has been done. Pick Edwards or any one of a million others who have crossed some kind of ethical boundary.

Running for office vs. retiring isn't the issue. The issue is personal accountability, and Americans as a culture still tend to believe in that.

Most of us, at any rate.

[J. J. in Phila]

This is where you (and a former CDT reporter/blogger) and I part company. If there’s nothing more to know, Ray Gricar’s legacy has already been written. All of the publicly released information suggests he intentionally disappeared, and that he can’t reappear because there aren’t any mitigating circumstances.

Is that how I should view this mystery? More importantly, is that how Ray Gricar’s family and friends really want to leave this?

And this is where I part company from you.

You will find one blog specifically on walkaway, which notes that the pension is unexplained in the context of walkaway.

You will find one blog specifically on Foul Play (A Short Walk to Death). Unexplained in that context is the Fenton sighting and the seeming lack of extra clothing with RFG.

I have problems with the Fenton sighting. It would not surprise me if PEF did not know every piece of clothing RFG owned (even if she thinks she did).

I think there is more to know.

[J. J. in Phila]

2-B, you question about sources will be answered in a blog that should be posted before the end of the month.

[2-B]

2-B, you question about sources will be answered in a blog that should be posted before the end of the month.

Sorry, JJ. I'm involved in a conversation you started on this message board by making a claim here, mid-February. I have no interest in waiting around for another two weeks for you to post something on your blog, where you control what can and can't be posted, and where other In Session readers may or may not even find it.

You're the one you said

I don't agree. I've been looking at the comments on the stories regarding RFG, comments on other message boards, and the comments is the (very different) Nick Francisco case. The criticism of NF is largely that wasn't paying child support

here, at In Session, then claimed you weren't talking about message boards. It's your responsibility to clarify that contradiction for In Session posters here. Not everyone who reads here knows or cares that you have a blog or bothers to read it. Witness N9, who didn't know you had a blog.

[Politigal]

a ringer 2-B.....lol :lol:

[J. J. in Phila]

Sorry, JJ. I'm involved in a conversation you started on this message board by making a claim here, mid-February. I have no interest in waiting around for another two weeks for you to post something on your blog, where you control what can and can't be posted, and where other In Session readers may or may not even find it.

You're the one you said

I don't agree. I've been looking at the comments on the stories regarding RFG, comments on other message boards, and the comments is the (very different) Nick Francisco case. The criticism of NF is largely that wasn't paying child support

here, at In Session, then claimed you weren't talking about message boards. It's your responsibility to clarify that contradiction for In Session posters here. Not everyone who reads here knows or cares that you have a blog or bothers to read it. Witness N9, who didn't know you had a blog.

It will be answered in the blog, and is scheduled to appear by the end of the month.

[2-B]

It will be answered in the blog, and is scheduled to appear by the end of the month.

Whatever, JJ. Trust me, I won't be sitting around waiting with bated breath for your blog entry. At this point, I read it only when somebody sends a copy to me or points me to an entry where they've found "your version of the truth" particularly amusing.

But since you've raised the NF case, I'll take this opportunity to put up parts of a post made by a friend of mine from that board (I had her permission ages ago to post it here if I so desired):

Silver Dove posted that no one would be happy unless Nicholas was found dead. I found that appalling. I'm very happy he is alive because being alive gives him a chance to make his life right. Laying dead in a ditch somewhere does not give him that option. I pray that he can get whatever help and support he might need in order to make things right with his children. No matter how many people children have in their lives, they always need their father's love and support IMO.

I have always thought there was more to this story than met the eye and my stance is the same. I've also always wondered why some posters here said such vile things about a missing man - perhaps they have known all along he wasn't "missing" in the sense we think of. Perhaps Christine knew this - perhaps this would explain why billboards were not put up or TES called in. It might also explain why Christine divorced Nicholas so quickly. I think a lot of things will begin to make better sense now in some of the postings. . . .

Rather than people being happy that Nicholas has been found alive, I see the chest beating, guffawing, and high fiving and posts riddled with disparaging remarks about him. I hope somebody somewhere can help him find his back to his children.

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?t=360510&page=5

Bolding mine.

I found it fascinating that the NF case had its own "JJ," who could read the minds of other posters and somehow "know" they "wanted" Nicholas to be dead the way that you have claimed some posters here "want" a certain outcome and "won't be happy" unless they get that particular outcome (Willoughby went so far as to claim they would be "furious").

Poppycock, I say. I believe the vast majority of posters here will feel as my friend does about NF if RG is found to be alive--happy that RG has a chance to make right whatever pain he may have inflicted on those who love him and relieved that he is not skeletal remains lying in a ditch somewhere. I also will not be surprised in the slightest, if RG is found alive, if we were to see "chest beating, guffawing, and high fiving and posts riddled with disparaging remarks about [RG]."

[J. J. in Phila]

I think the key there is children.