A New Investigation [Archive] - Page 2 - In Session Message Boards

J. J. in Phila

08-08-2007, 09:33 PM

UTR, virtually no missing adult case (or possibly a missing child case) have ever gotten the level of press that the Gricar case has, in the local area where the person disappeared. That changes the effectiveness of flyers.

It's possible that if the Susquehanna Valley had been plastered with flyers it might have produced another witness, but even that was unlikely.

In dealing with children, there are different issues:

1. Family kidnapping, which isn't applicable (49%).

2. Acquaintance kidnapping, which usually involves some kind of additional criminal intent, e.g. ransom, robbery (27%).

3. Stranger kidnapping, which usually involves molestation (21%).

http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-mc-mcstatistics.htm

Now, unless RFG was kidnapped by a noncustodial parent or is being held as a sex slave, #1 and #3 will not apply.:rolleyes:

A flyer is useful for someone likely to be carted around by the country by a kidnapping relative or by a sexual predator, but both of those possibilities are Utterly Totally Ridiculous in this case.

That leave kidnapping for a criminal purpose. Well RFG wasn't carjacked, his laptop wasn't stolen, and he was in a "safe" area. No one received a ransom note. That takes out #2, and it would be unlikely that posters would help in that case.

You cannot look at the standard for missing children

The Jasonproject provides a link for what families can do:

These pages are filled with many suggestions for the search for your child. Since each case is different, some of the information may not apply to your situation.

The site goes on to say:

*Media Although TV seldom features missing adults, it is sometimes possible to find a sympathetic columnist with a newspaper who will cover the story and print a photo. It’s very difficult being rejected when reaching out for help. However, there’s always a chance that someone will help. Keep trying. If it becomes emotionally painful, reach out to Team HOPE, family and friends.

*Contact all local media. Police may have to initiate the request, but you or your spokesperson will be responsible for maintaining contact and keeping attention focused on the abduction story. Set up a phone listing of these local media sources so that they are readily accessible to you. Team HOPE can help.

http://www.teamhope.org/adultsdo.html

They are talking about finding a friendly columnist and the RFG case was the top new story of the year in the area and received national coverage!

Flyers are useful in those cases where the family cannot get local media coverage; as noted, a lot of families cannot. If you don't think this case had major coverage in the area, I'd like to see the cave wired for the Internet that you must be living in.

Unlike you, I cannot find fault with the family's actions, or those of the press.

If there was some evidence of RFG in some other area, yes, flyers might be useful in that area. Do you know what area that is UTR? I need something more specific that the Planet Earth.

UndertheRadar

08-08-2007, 10:22 PM

Virtually no missing adult case or possibly missing child case have [sic] ever gotten the level of press the Gricar case has in the local area where the person disappeared?

Oh come now.

UndertheRadar

08-08-2007, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

I was "bowled" over with that comment too.

it was laughable actually

Yep.

J. J. in Phila

08-08-2007, 11:04 PM

Okay, no non telegenic young white girl.

Levy, because it involved, tangentially, a sitting congressman, and Holloway, missing from "paradise." Even these were not the lead news story of the year in the area where they bvanished.

Cindy Song? No. Not even close. Maybe if she were blonde.

Jason Jolkowski? I could even find a mention of him in the Omaha paper. He has a Y chromosome.

Did you ever hear of Danielle Imbo and Richard Petrone? I had to look up their names. Their case is, if anything, more mysterious than RFG's and it occurred about two months before. Dozens of stories? No.

Yet we still have coverage in the paper, though JKA's prose were dismissed.

UndertheRadar

08-08-2007, 11:18 PM

Imbo and Petrone have had plenty of coverage, actually. I've followed their case since it first happened. By the way, you can download posters for them at NCMA. And you'll find banners for them of the sort Day talked about.

Rilya Wilson.

Precious Doe, although she was "found" as a corpse before it was "known" she was missing.

Tionda and Diamond Bradley have received much coverage.

Purvis Parker and Quadrevion Henning--huge story.

You just don't pay attention.

J. J. in Phila

08-08-2007, 11:44 PM

I just googled "Richard Petrone" and on the first three pages (30 hits), I found two news stories.

I just googled "Danielle Imbo" and in the same number of pages found three news stories (one appears to be a trade publication).

I just googled "Ray Gricar" and in the same number of pages found 17 new stories (including the CDT Forum, but excluding Baron's references).

That corresponds with my recollections of both cases.

Please post your definition of "plenty," UTR?

UndertheRadar

08-08-2007, 11:50 PM

JJ's definition of news coverage: what's still available for him to google.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 12:00 AM

UTR's definition of plenty of of coverage:

Three stories.

UTR's defintion of poor coverage:

Eighteen stories.

:rolleyes:

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 12:02 AM

Gee, I wonder how it is I know so much about these cases, then.

Oooh, it must be my psychic powers kicking in. Maybe I can replace Baron on the Gricar case.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 12:22 AM

No need for psycic ability, just a search engine.

All of them had some[/] coverage. But not "plenty." A lot of it comes up on message boards like this. Unless the general public, however, comes to these sites, they won't know about them.

In the case of Danielle Imbo and Richard Petrone, there has not been a lot of coverage since the disappearance, just a mention on the anniversary, but CTV's Crime Library has a good story. To find it, I had to remember "couple truck vanished Philadelphia," and start googling.

You have to understand that there is a huge difference between the "limited eyes" of CTV board viewers and the general public.

And no, outside of the Crime Library, there has [i]not been huge coverage of Danielle Imbo and Richard Petrone. You know about these things because you want to look for these things. Centre Countians, and Central Pennsylvanians know about these things, as a rule, because it's in the media.

It is really sad that neither you, nor JKA really understood that.

MARKYG10

08-09-2007, 12:35 AM

Why all the snips at each other? Aren't we all striving for the same solution- to find out what happened to Ray? JMO, but why not try another psychic besides Carla B.? At this point, what harm would it do? NOT Sylvia B., but one who works closely with PD.:seeya: -Marky

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I don't believe that to be the case. It isn't that people aren't interested and hungry for info. They are being starved. I do not have one day go by that someone doesn't ask me if I know whether there is anything new with the case.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

I think this is one of failings in JKA's narrative. Now, a lot of her CPV is very legitimate and I can understand it; it is human nature not to pay close attention (and it is one of the reasons that I've critical of you when you suggest that people should have remembered seeing the Mini).

One thing that wasn't, and that she never claimed that she couldn't recall, was the manner in which RFG was "distraught." It it wasn't that he looked "depressed," or was "tired," that would have been "new." Just that minor detail, for us at least, could have raised her standing, at least here (though I doubt with PB). :)

Initially, I came across those who thought runaway held possibility, but now, very rarely. The general concensus is no word from RG in over two years = foul play as most likely possibility.

I'm getting just the opposite, talking with some area people. The idea seems to be, RFG was not lured, because he was just too smart to be lured into a trap. While I agree that RFG was very bright, I don't agree that a very bright person cannot be scammed.

I think those closer to the case, at least support suicide or walkaway, to the point that one comment to the CDT was to immediately call in forensic auditor.

SS comments seem to echo this sentiment, and I'm wondering if is opinion is based on something, or just wishful thinking. I wish we could get into his mind.

BTW, did SS win both party nominations?

day2day

08-09-2007, 09:12 AM

While I sit here and read post after post about KA's shortcomings in her website- I wonder WHY after 2+ years PF hasn't done the same. Or something similar?! I think this question is JUST as important as PB asking KA-why now?!

jmo...

sherrijean981

08-09-2007, 11:36 AM

I just found this article on the Centre Daily Times Web site

BREAKING NEWS
WHAT ARE THE 7 WONDERS OF CENTRE COUNTY
http://www.centredaily.com/126/story/170575.html

Maybe it should be:

#1 Wonder what happened to DA Ray Gricar?

#2 Wonder why DA Michael Madeira won't call in the Attorney General on the investigation of Missing DA Ray Gricar?

#3 Wonder when the PA State Legislature, or our Centre County State Reps and Senators are going to get an investigation on the Missing DA Ray Gricar ?

#4 Wonder why the Centre Daily Times doesn't have more coverage on Missing DA Ray Gricar?

#5 Wonder why Centre Countians are not putting up a fuss about the investigation of Ray Gricar, speaking out for him?

#6 Wonder if they will ever find DA Ray Gricar?

#7 Wonder how so many people disappear in Centre County?

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 11:56 AM

Oh yes, outside the Crime Library, the dearth of coverage for Danielle Imboe and Richard Petrone was just pitiful:

For Danielle Imbo:
04/25/05 - InsideTV Magazine Article

04/10/05 - Courier Post Online - Loved Ones Search for Missing Pair

04/10/05 - PhillyBurbs.com - Groups plan separate searches for missing couple

04/09/05 - Courier Post Online - 2 groups to search for couple

04/04/05 - Philly.com - City and Local News Brief

03/25/05 - Timesleader - Missing woman had rejected both men who were pursuing her

03/25/05 - CBS 3 - New Details About Missing Couple's Relationship

03/24/05 - Delawareonline.com After month, no trace of missing couple
Cell phones, credit cards unused since pair left Phila. bar

03/23/05 - CourtTV - Pennsylvania police baffled by couple missing since February

03/23/05 - Delaware Online - After month, no trace of missing couple

03/23/05 - South Philly Review - Pleading and Praying

03/23/05 - ABC News - PA Couple's Whereabouts Stump Police

03/23/05 - Yahoo - Pa. Couple's Whereabouts Stump Police

03/22/05 - KUTV 2 - Philadelphia Couple Disappears Without A Trace

03/22/05 - CBS 2 - Philadelphia Couple Disappears Without A Trace

03/22/05 - Courier Post Online - Hope is theme of vigil for missing couple

03/22/05 - KYW NEWSRADIO 1060 - Still No Sign of Missing Area Couple

03/22/05 - ABC 6 Action News - Missing Area Couple: UPDATE

03/2/05 - NBC 10 Families Of Missing Couple Plead For Public's Help

03/22/05 - CBS 3 - Cops: Missing Couple Did Not Go Voluntarily

03/21/05 - CBS3 - Vigil For Missing NJ Couple

03/17/05 - Burlington County Times - 300 Attend Mass for Couple

03/16/05 - ABC 6 Action News - Prayer Service Held for Missing Couple

03/08/05 - ABC 6 Action News

03/08/05 - CBS 3 - Friends of Missing Couple

03/08/05 - NBC 10

03/03/05 - South Philly Review - 03/03/05

03/03/05 - KYW Newsradio - 03/03/05

03/03/05 - WNEP Channel 16 - 03/03/05

03/03/05 - Timesleader - Northeastern Pennsylvania's Home Page - 03/03/05

03/03/05 - Burlington County Times - 03/03/05

03/03/05 - CBS KWY-TV Channel 3- 03/03/05

S03/03/0 - Scranton Times - 03/03/05

03/01/05 - Channel 6 ABC Action News - 03/01/05

03/01/05 - Courier Post Online - 03/01/05

03/01/05 - Burlington County Times - 03/01/05

02/26/05 - Burlington County Times - 02/26/05

For Richard Petrone:

Judgement day is coming!
Listen to the thunder as it draws ever closer... watch the lightning flashes send the rats and the roaches running for cover...judgement day is coming!
Richard Petrone SR, May 16, 2007

Still missing after two years
"That's $100,000 just for their whereabouts — not who did it...just tell us where they are so these families can have some closure." Citizens Crime Commission Vice President Santo Montecalvo
Read the report here by Lorraine Gennaro, South Philly Review, February 15, 2007

"The not knowing part of what happened to him is a nightmare... Is he thrown like trash somewhere for 2 years. I mean in every religion you bury... You have a place to bury. You have a place to go. You have a place to grieve. We have nothing." Marge Petrone
Read the report here, 6ABC News, February 17, 2007
"If you take it as a whole, unimaginable. My wife and I would have never thought we'd be here, two years out." Richard Petrone Sr.
Read the report by Pat Ciarrocchi here, CBS News, February 16, 2007

"We are confident there is going to be a solution and justice. The FBI and all the agencies are working hard. They have not given up and we are certain they will solve this. They have many resources and our faith is in them." Marge Petrone.
Read the report by Elaine J. Barton here, The Central Record, February 15, 2007

February 16, 2007
2 Years Later, Area Couple Is Still Missing

February 15, 2007
Without a trace: couple still missing

October 2, 2006
Search Continues for Petrone and Imbo

February 20, 2006
Vigil for Missing Couple

February 19, 2006
Mystery Troubles Families

February 16, 2006
The Lives Left Behind (on the one-year anniversary)

November 19, 2005
Grand Jury Looking Into Their Disappearance

August 28, 2005
FBI Aiding Worldwide Search for Missing Couple

August 28, 2005
Truck wasn't Richard's

August 19, 2005
Vigil for Missing Couple

August 18, 2005
Not Forgotten: Candlelight Vigil

July 7, 2005
"Everybody is hopeful" at Viking Bakery

June 19, 2005
On Father's Day: Crimefighters: Imbo & Petrone

June 3, 2005
A desperate search for answers

June 3, 2005
Reward boosted for missing couple

May 22, 2005
On boy's birthday, family puts on brave face

May 9, 2005
Growing Reward Fails to Lead to Missing Area Couple

April 23, 2005
Reward Increased in Missing Pair's Disappearance

April 14, 2005
Missed Persons

April 10, 2005
A couple's disappearance continues to baffle
Loved ones search for missing pair

April 9, 2005
What happened to them?

April 7, 2005
Search parties for missing couple

April 6, 2005
Family organizing search party to seek missing couple

March 24, 2005
Pleading and praying

March 23, 2005
One month later, couple still missing
Teen: I need my dad back

March 22, 2005
Missing Area Couple: update
Police think couple that disappeared did not go voluntarily
Still No Sign of Missing Area Couple
Hope is theme of vigil for missing couple
Families Of Missing Couple Plead For Public's Help

March 21, 2005
Vigil For Missing NJ Couple

March 17, 2005
CNN's Anderson Cooper
Local Pair Still Missing: Billboard Ad, Reward to Attract Motorists
Woman's kin, friends nurture hope in prayer
300 attend a Mass for couple

March 16, 2005
Vigil Scheduled For Missing Couple

March 12, 2005
Missing pair to be on '[America's Most] Wanted' tonight

March 10, 2005
Without a trace

March 9, 2005
Reward Offered for Missing Couple

March 8, 2005
Friends Of Missing Couple Speak Out

March 5, 2005
Couple's disappearance leaves families in turmoil

March 3, 2005
Police have no answers about couple gone missing
Search Continues for Missing Area Couple
Search Under Way for Missing Couple (WNEP)
Search Under Way for Missing Couple (Times Leader)
Search Under Way for Missing Couple (Scranton Times)
Couple Missing for Weeks
Couple Last Seen on South Street

March, 1 2005
Area Couple Disappears
Family in Shock Over Young Mom's Disappearance

Feb 27, 2005
Police Briefs

February 26, 2005
Mount Laurel Police Seek Missing Couple

And all this says nothing of the flyers, banners, T-shirt campaigns, vigils, cut-a-thons, calls for search volunteers, heartfelt pleas for help on family websites . . .

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 12:35 PM

Excellent, and eloquent, posts today, Logic. Thank you for your wonderful contributions.

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 12:41 PM

The excuse that Jason Jolkowski has a Y chromosome is being used for "no coverage" of his case. Yet if one knows how to search effectively, it is still easy to find media reports available, despite his having gone missing more than six years ago. Naturally, many of the original stories will no longer be available online. That is true with the Gricar case, as we have all found. But it was easy to locate these without any great skill:

Five years missing:

http://www.ketv.com/news/9366411/detail.html

http://www.ketv.com/family/9357898/detail.html

http://www.kptm.com/news/local/3039176.html

They've created new missing posters for Jason, because they truly believe someone knows something. . . .Their hope is to post at least 500, asking for the public's help. The posters will be on every block of the neighborhood where Jason was last seen.

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/3039411.html

Three years missing:

http://www.theindependent.com/stories/112804/new_missing28.shtml

http://theindependent.com/stories/050904/new_missing09.shtml

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/731742.html

Two years missing:

http://projectjason.org/owh_reprint.html

http://www.theindependent.com/stories/022703/new_missingman27.shtml

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/537932.html

http://www.kptm.com/news/local/537417.html

One year missing:

http://www.theindependent.com/stories/061302/new_missing13.html

http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/159246.html

http://www.kptm.com/news/local/254181.html

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Thanks, UTR....I know that took some work.

And right back to my first item of contention.......
Either this is a 'missing person' case and we see family actions that match the words, or I believe we are 'owed' an explanation for why we are not to conduct ourselves as we would in ANY other missing person case.
JMO

It's just annoying the heck out of me that once again we're being misled on these boards. I knew what was said about Imboe and Petrone was a bunch of malarkey. Same with Jolkowski. And the whole "Y" chromosome angle has me fired up this morning. Someone should try googling "Wade Steffey" to see how many pages of coverage come up on that name.

Like you, I would like to know why the Gricar case is labeled a "missing persons" case but does not resemble any other missing persons case.

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

I want to know why an anniversary vigil for the citizens of Centre County was vetoed.

That is a question which has long haunted me. Interest was there, apparently, in some quarters, and then it did not move forward.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 01:54 PM

UTR, here is the first 30 days press coverage link in the RFG case:

CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/17/missing.prosecutor.ap/
Sunday April, 17 2005

Sun, Apr. 17, 2005
Centre Daily Times

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/cent...by/11419283.htm

Tuesday April 18, 2005
The Digital Collegian
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archiv...-05dnews-02.asp

Missing DA called dedicated prosecutor who kept low profile
April 20, 2005
Penn Live. com
http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/p....xml&storylist=

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05125/499511.

Fri, Apr. 22, 2005
Third witness says she saw Gricar

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/cent...ws/11457629.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155634,00.html

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/11437801.htm

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/11576111.htm

http://www.dailyitem.com/archive/20...ies/13local.htm

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/11586626.htm

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05120/496950.stm

This is exclusive of local broadcast media, unlike your list and this is from a period when the family generally was not doing interviews.

This list is also not inclusive; it is only the inks that people posted here prior to 5/16/05.

Six months anniversary, not the yearly ones so normally seen.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/12914580.htm

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archiv...-05dnews-08.asp

I know that there was that was titled "After Five Months, Ray Gricar Still Missing."

None of the stories deal with the finding of the laptop, the hard drive, the polygraphs, the MW, the PSP-CIA review, or Carla Baron, all of which have been favorite topics here and all of which were well covered. It also does not include the Dayton news stories, or the CDT Forum.

It is Uttery, Totally Ridiculous to claim that the story, the NUMBER ONE news story in Centre County, for the year, was not well covered.

And if have any real questions of how much the media impact was of the disappearance of Imbo and Petrone, just do a search of either name here. :rolleyes:

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 02:29 PM

Well, there goes JJ twisting things up again.

I never once claimed that the local media didn't cover the Gricar case extensively. So I have absolutely no clue why you would pretend that I did, or why you would waste space listing the articles that covered the case. We're all familiar with them; we've been working with the text of them on this board for a long time.

And I also did not make the claim that outside of CTV's Crime Library "there has not been huge coverage" of Imbo and Petrone. YOU did that. YOU claimed people had to come to sites like CTV to find out about them.

But faced with about 90 different pieces of media coverage on the Imbo and Petrone case, you can't simply admit you were wrong.

And you won't, can't, and don't admit you're wrong because it would undercut an incorrect assertion you've put out about the Gricar case.

sherrijean981

08-09-2007, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
Logic and UTR,

Great posts. I have always wondered why the family has been silent, then I came to the conclusion, that a family would only remain silent if they know that their loved on is alive and where their loved on is.

I feel that everyone is wasting their time being her because I believe that Ray is alive and well and the family knows it also. I don't think that Ray wants to be found. I don't think that the family want anyone looking. I was thinking this morning that for some reason, Ray would like to be declared dead. I don't know why. If this was a real missing person case, someone other than Lara would be checking his bank account.

I believe that we have been hood winked.

Definition of hood wink:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/hoodwink

hood·wink (hdwngk) KEY

TRANSITIVE VERB:

hood·winked , hood·wink·ing , hood·winks

1. To take in by deceptive means; deceive.
2. Archaic To blindfold.
3. Obsolete To conceal.

I believe that the citizens have a right to know what happened to our DA since he was working for us, the citizens, when he disappeared.

I truly believe that the family has been silent for a reason. Reason being that Ray is alive. Notice my post to Ray has disappeared. Someone must not have liked it.

JMO, MOO

Cindi, did you get the photo's of Lewisburg and Billy Joe Leather's property?

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

But faced with about 90 different pieces of media coverage on the Imbo and Petrone case, you can't simply admit you were wrong.

JJ wanted my definition of "plenty" of coverage and "big" story with regard to Imbo and Petrone.

With just a little bit more searching this afternoon, I want to amend the above to 104 links to media stories about their disappearance that I've now come across.

JJ found 3.

I think 104 qualifies as "plenty."

Serendipitous1

08-09-2007, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
<Snip>
I might be wrong about the family's silence, but can anyone explain it any other way to me? Could it be basically that, after the first two weeks...with whatever LE conveyed to them, and 'knowing' RG would not have 'disappeared' himself...they believed he was no longer alive? Other families of missing persons live with hope, and act on that hope. This family appeared to have resigned themselves to another reality. And they have said so. They are not looking for Ray to come home. They are looking for an answer. And at some level, LE must provide that answer...if there is ever to be one. Just my own opinion.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 06:35 PM

You claimed that was "plenty of coverage" of the Imbo and Petrone. According to what you've posted:

The ABC affiliate did 4 stories on the disappearance in the first year.

The NBC affiliate did 2 stories on the disappearance in the first year.

The CBS affiliate (the local Emmy winners) did 4 stories on the disappearance in the first year. (It might be one more, but there is no "CBS 2" in Philadelphia; there is in Pittsburgh

That is apparently your definition of "plenty of coverage," ten stories in one year. How many were done in the local area in the first year.

Here is just one station:

Missing Centre County Prosecutor's Hard Drive Found
Ray Gricar's laptop, which was found in the river over the summer. The hard drive was recently found by a woman and her son not far from where the laptop was discovered. Gricar, Centre County's District...
Article: http://www.wjactv.com/news/5184923/detail.html
84%
Oct 27, 2005

Police Still Search For Clues In DA's Disappearance
Police Still Search For Clues In DA's Disappearance. Police say missing Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar's girlfriend passed the polygraph test they administered to her last week. According...
Article: http://www.wjactv.com/news/4740692/detail.html
90%
Jul 19, 2005

New Details On Missing District Attorney
New Details On Missing District Attorney. Police say they want to give missing District Attorney Ray Gricar's girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, a lie detector test. Fornicola maintains she has no better...
Article: http://www.wjactv.com/news/4716988/detail.html
88%
Jul 13, 2005

Possible Gricar Sighting
Possible Gricar Sighting. Bellefonte police say a man and his daughter spotted someone who they say looks like Ray Gricar. The pair say the man they saw was with a woman in her seventies at a suburban...
Article: http://www.wjactv.com/news/4588077/detail.html
90%
Jun 09, 2005

Divers Search River For Missing District Attorney
District Attorney Ray Gricar. Bellefonte police chief, Duane Dixon, says "This is the place for them to go in at. And, its close to where Ray disappeared." This is the first day for divers in...
Article: http://www.wjactv.com/news/4409393/detail.html
92%
Apr 25, 2005

Police Still Searching For Missing District Attorney
Police Still Searching For Missing District Attorney. Investigators say they may return to the Susquehanna River Friday. Gricar's car was found parked in a lot near the river in Lewisburg last Saturday....
Article: http://www.wjactv.com/news/4405538/detail.html

Centre County District Attorney Missing
Centre County District Attorney Missing. There is still no word on Centre County's missing District Attorney. Monday, Ray Gricar's family plead for him to contact them. "I want you to know...
Article: http://www.wjactv.com/news/4387570/detail.html

http://www.wjactv.com/searchv2/form.html?qt=gricar&video=on&stories=on&date

That is just one station.

If, in your opinion Imbo and Petrone disappearance had "plenty of coverage," then the RFG case had to have had "double or triple plenty of coverage." :rolleyes:

That list excludes print and cable; according to your list, UTR, there was only one cable story. There have been several on RFG.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Could it be basically that, after the first two weeks...with whatever LE conveyed to them, and 'knowing' RG would not have 'disappeared' himself...they believed he was no longer alive? Other families of missing persons live with hope, and act on that hope. This family appeared to have resigned themselves to another reality. And they have said so. They are not looking for Ray to come home. They are looking for an answer. And at some level, LE must provide that answer...if there is ever to be one. Just my own opinion.

S1, I get a completely different vibe, at least from Sloane. Wishful thinking, maybe; maybe he knows something we don't. That oblique reference to Wiley really has me thinking. I think there is more there.

And why would the family continue to participate with the press, and on message boards?

Then there is the long, well before I got here, attempt to implicate PEF by PE, Lustor, et c. It doesn't make sense, because the evidence all points away from it?

Serendipitous1

08-09-2007, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
S1, Are you telling me that the family knows whether Ray is dead or alive? If so, is he dead or alive. Which I believe that he is alive. JMO, MOO My opinion: No, the family does not know, but believe he is not alive...which is what they have said. What they are looking for is why. The BPD has been unable to answer? The family, through TG, has asked for another agency to investigate. That fell on deaf ears. The last from TG was some hope that MR might be able to provide an answer. Obviously, that has not happened yet either.

Serendipitous1

08-09-2007, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

S1, I get a completely different vibe, at least from Sloane. Wishful thinking, maybe; maybe he knows something we don't. That oblique reference to Wiley really has me thinking. I think there is more there.

And why would the family continue to participate with the press, and on message boards?

Then there is the long, well before I got here, attempt to implicate PEF by PE, Lustor, et c. It doesn't make sense, because the evidence all points away from it? Except for PF, TG and KA, I have not gotten any "vibes". While I feel certain SS knows a lot about RG, he has not yet "filed his brief". I wish he would. The family wants an answer...and they have not gotten one from the BPD. Who are we to question where the family treads? Sauntering can (does) have its own reward. Just my own opinion.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 07:43 PM

Serendipitous1

08-09-2007, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

I think it was you that posted the link to SS saying that RFG was not dead. Some of that is that RFG was to savvy to walk into a trap; I'm wondering if there is anything more. My opinion: As I recall, SS made an "off the cuff" statement about possible missing money (fact not in evidence), but could not conceive of a reason why RG would have just walked away.

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 09:15 PM

Good grief, JJ. You certainly know how to twist parameters to suit whatever shifting purposes you have, don't you? First you say there were only 3 stories on Imbo and Petrone. Then, faced with 104 of them, you somehow reduce them to 10 by excluding all print stories. And by the way, Danielle is/was from New Jersey, so not everything revolves around Philadelphia in that case. The CBS 2 station is out of Newark.

I've also listed print stories from 2007. But follow up stories about the actual progression of the case have had less to report in Imbo/Petrone than in the Gricar case. LE freely say that it was never a situation of the case "growing cold." They describe it as a case that was "never warm" to begin with, since this was a couple that just vanished. No laptops to find. No hard drives to recover. No law licenses to renew.

Still, there have been 104 separate media accounts I found despite your claim that only 3 existed.

Both families have worked hard to keep Danielle and Richard in the public eye, hoping to reach that one person who has a piece of information that will move the case forward. They have a billboard on Interstate 95. They still ask for volunteers for searches and promise that the searches will be an "ongoing effort" that "will continue until Richard and Danielle are found." They've used private SAR groups to help search. They have an on-going flyer campaign, in part aimed at locating Rich's vehicle. They've got T-shirt and email campaigns and fundraisers and a photostamp program. They've got a $100,000 reward.

And that is what is critical. They are not relying on the media coverage alone to reach whoever might have that vital information.

Look how "successful" the strategy of relying on media alone was with regard to the Lewisburg MW. Zaccagni figured the case had gotten media coverage and that the MW would somehow pick up from a tiny little mention of a woman seen with Gricar hidden in Nissley's column that LE was looking for this Mystery Woman. Many in Centre County were astonished to learn about the MW when it was truly made public on Dateline and in the CDT a year later.

And I would bet you that there are still many who don't even know that a "Mystery Woman" played any possible role whatsoever in the Gricar case. There's one place where flyers, with or without a picture by a sketch artist, could have been really useful in this case.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion: As I recall, SS made an "off the cuff" statement about possible missing money (fact not in evidence), but could not conceive of a reason why RG would have just walked away.

I recall no "possible missing money (fact not in evidence)" statement. There has been a statement in the CDT Forum about it:

Believe it or not, yes. At least one of his better friends has told me he would not be shocked if Ray walked away intentionally. Those who knew him best tell me Ray was way too intelligent to have been entrapped by a killer. And others say suicide makes no sense, with him being only months away from a retirement he had, by all accounts, cherished. Who knows?
Pete Bosak 11/28/06

I wonder who the "one of his better friends" is?

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 09:40 PM

Wasn't it SS who commented that he thought there "should have been more" in RG's account, or something to that effect? I believe that may be S1's "off the cuff," facts not in evidence reference.

Might have been Walker. I'd have to go back and check sources.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 09:55 PM

UTR, I compared the same period of time between the two cases. Except for those, "It's been ____ blank year(s)" cases, there has nothing on the Imbo and Petrone disappearance, within six months, no print stories. You count things like "Without a Trace" that has featured RFG once or twice, that are not reporting, per se.

Most of the papers you cite are not widely read in Phila itself; some of what you are listing are wide service stories in other towns (KUTV is in Utah; they rebroadcast a local story).

Someone likely to be a witness, may have seen one of 10 stories within the first year, if they happen to be channel surfing. If the watch one local station; they have seen maybe 4 stories in a year. With just what is archived on WJAC, they would have seen seven.

There is no comparison.

"Plenty of coverage?" In a pig's eye, compared to the coverage of RFG.

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 10:11 PM

I think it best to draw on OOBrett's lexicon at this point.

Absofrackinglutely unbelievable.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
Tony Gricar posted in the last several days & alluded to Gricar's friends opinions having changed since so much time has elapsed since Gricar's disappearance. But he would not elaborate.

That opinion was in the press in late 2006.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 10:24 PM

UTR, if you think that ten local broadcast stories in a full year is "plenty of coverage" of the Imbo and Petrone case, that is absofrackinlutely incredible.

If you think that the amount of coverage of the RFG case is not enough to inform anyone in the area not living in a cave that RFG is missing, that is Utterly and Totally Ridiculous.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Obviously someone didn't like the idea. First time I have ever heard of anyone opposing a candlelight vigil. I can't imagine myself in that place and saying no to it.

Who actually opposed the vigil?

I am aware that Dr. Luna has not participated in a vigil held for JPL (It was arranged by Keisling, however).

http://www.yardbird.com/luna_vigil_video.htm

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Obviously someone didn't like the idea. First time I have ever heard of anyone opposing a candlelight vigil. I can't imagine myself in that place and saying no to it.

I also can't imagine myself in the position of not having a flyer everywhere I can think of, and mailing it to every resident in the local neighborhood, those living on route 192, those living near the sighting at Raystown and everyone living and working near the SOS; anywhere I thought I could either 'jog' someone's memory or attempt to reach someone who might have seen something who might be hesitant to come forward for whatever reason.
JMO

I see no negatives and many positives to come from a vigil. A vigil is a reason for media to cover the case. A vigil provides a reason for the community to gather in support of the family/loved ones of the missing. A vigil stimulates interest on the part of community members. A vigil honors the person who is missing.

And I see no negatives and many positives which could come from a continued flyer campaign, or, in this case, from a flyer campaign period. Given the discussion on this board the last few days I am utterly flabbergasted by the inexplicable attempts to argue that what COULD be done should NOT be done. When there is nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying something, it should be tried.

UndertheRadar

08-09-2007, 10:52 PM

JJ, I think you are unable to understand that 104 different media pieces is not 10.

I think you are unable to understand that the Petrone family and Danielle's family have mounted an incredible campaign of their own.

If you can show the board any vigils that were held for RG, any fund raisers, any private SAR groups that were used, any on-going calls for volunteer searchers so that searches can continue until RG is found, any billboards, web banners, email campaigns, photo stamp programs, flyer campaigns, etc., etc., I'm sure we'd all be interested.

J. J. in Phila

08-09-2007, 11:51 PM

UTR, you are comparing apples to oranges. If you want a comparison, here are some sites. I've eliminated the blogs that don't post articles and the family website:

Ray Gricar Is Missing - Information and Reward Site

FOXNews.com - Where Is Ray Gricar? - Greta Van Susteren | On The ...

www.centredaily.com | 01/01/2006 | Timeline of the Ray Gricar case

Ray Gricar | www.centredaily.com
Forum

MissingAbducted: Ray Gricar latest news story

CrimeNews 2000 - crime news archive page

MissingAbducted: Ray Gricar

amw.com | Ray Gricar - Missing Person

No Stone Unturned ... [Archive] - The Carla Baron Connection

Missing DA: Is it foul play or did he commit suicide? please pray ...

2006 April archive | SUPERNATURAL NEWS

Inside Dateline: Missing Pa district attorney - Dateline NBC ...

Police: Gricar testing ends
FBI still reviewing possible photos of missing D.A. Gricar

True Crime Update: Missing Cruise Ship Passenger, Gricar and That ...

6abc.com: Prosecutor Disappearance Still a Mystery

Citizen Journal Article Archive

The Thin Man: Gricar in Lewisburg: A 24-hour mystery

News in brief
Digg - My daughter is missing...I don't know what to do

AstralRealm - New Age News and Headlines

Attytood: June 2005 Archives

Court TV's Informer: May 2007 Archive

The Thin Man: Gricar case: Nowhere in 19 months

Court TV's Informer: 'Haunting Evidence" X2

Psychic Leads Prove Valuable in Search for Missing D.A.

PRWeb:: Browse News Release By Date

LancasterOnline.com: Lead investigator in missing DA case to retire

missing | person
The Search for Ray Gricar

CentreCounty.com: My Penns Valley Local News

Haunting Evidence on Court TV - TWoP Forums

CrimProf Blog: News

Mcall.com: Capitol Ideas with John L. Micek Blog

FindMonica Foundation Missing / Abducted Persons Database

From Whispers to Roars :: View Forum - 2005-2006

Now, these are from the first 10 pages of 2,900 pages. We are probably talking about conservatively more than 5,000 links, though like your example, many are duplicates.

If 104 are "plenty" than more than 5,000 should be substantially more than "plenty."

UndertheRadar

08-10-2007, 12:24 AM

Right, JJ. I can google Richard Petrone and say there are 157,000 entries.

I'm not playing your little "switch it up" game, though. I never set out to compare coverage of the Petrone/Imbo case with coverage of the Gricar case. That's your "switch it up" idea, so don't talk to me about apples and oranges. All the fruit is yours.

The only thing I set out to do was correct your misinformation, your claim that outside of CTV's Crime Library, there was little coverage of the Petrone/Imbo case.

I did that, and rather than admit that you were wrong, you persist in changing things up and trying to argue some other point.

You can expend bandwidth on posting all 5,000 whatever links if you want.

None of that media coverage apparently reached the Mystery Woman, did it?

And none of it has unraveled the mystery of what has happened to Ray Gricar.

So obviously, it's not enough.

J. J. in Phila

08-10-2007, 12:53 AM

There is a Dr Richard Petrone. It is not the same guy.

It took 40 hits in the first 10 pages directly related to RFG's disappearance, halved it, and multiplied it by by the remainding pages. That produces a conservative estimate.

If you don't understand that, you have my pity.

Are you suggesting that the mystery woman, if there was one, will see a poster? :rolleyes:

The Petrone and Imbo disappearance was not particularly well covered, even though it was a bizarre disappearance. I am so glad the family did what what you think they should to do and posted flyer (not to mention the billboard). That really produced witness, from the several hundred people on the street at the time, to where Imbo, Petrone, and Petrone's very large pickup truck disappeared to on that night. I'm really see how successful the "flyers, banners, T-shirt campaigns, vigils, cut-a-thons, calls for search volunteers, heartfelt pleas for help on family websites" were in finding them.

UndertheRadar

08-10-2007, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I believe that the mystery woman is well aware that we are looking for her. She just doesn't want anyone to know who she is. JMO, MOO

I think you may be right about that, Cind. Though I'm not convinced there was a Lewisburg MW. JMO.

J. J. in Phila

08-10-2007, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I believe that the mystery woman is well aware that we are looking for her. She just doesn't want anyone to know who she is. JMO, MOO

Mark this day on the calendar, I agree with UTR. There might not have been a mystery woman.

If the MW was out there, there was so much press, not to mention LE presence, that if she was there, she would have known about RFG's disappearance.

day2day

08-10-2007, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Mark this day on the calendar, I agree with UTR. There might not have been a mystery woman.

If the MW was out there, there was so much press, not to mention LE presence, that if she was there, she would have known about RFG's disappearance.

~FAINTS~~

sherrijean981

08-10-2007, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Except for PF, TG and KA, I have not gotten any "vibes". While I feel certain SS knows a lot about RG, he has not yet "filed his brief". I wish he would. The family wants an answer...and they have not gotten one from the BPD. Who are we to question where the family treads? Sauntering can (does) have its own reward. Just my own opinion.

With SS being a budding novelist, I wonder if he is working on a story about the missing DA? If not, he should have been the one to put a website up on the happenings of the Centre County Courthouse and RG. Oh, that's right. He wasn't around the courthouse in the last couple months RG was there to see what was going on. That is why I wonder if RG wasn't meeting him somewhere, discussing the reason he was so distraught, worried looking. If a close friend and confidant, wouldn't SS know more than anyone else?

sherrijean981

08-10-2007, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
Wasn't it SS who commented that he thought there "should have been more" in RG's account, or something to that effect? I believe that may be S1's "off the cuff," facts not in evidence reference.

Might have been Walker. I'd have to go back and check sources.

I believe he was even shocked or surprised to learn that was all that was in RG's bank account. He thought it should have been a lot more.

sherrijean981

08-10-2007, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Cinderella
I believe that the mystery woman is well aware that we are looking for her. She just doesn't want anyone to know who she is. JMO, MOO

I think if there is a MW, she knows RG is gone, doesn't want anyone to know about her, because she might have been part of the disappearance. Not a MW lover, a MW that set him up somehow. JMO

Gstickley is on vacation right now. She will be very shocked to come back and find that JJ has agreed with UTR, as we all are. Thank God, finally, maybe a break in the Hatfield and McCoy feud.

UndertheRadar

08-10-2007, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Gstickley is on vacation right now. She will be very shocked to come back and find that JJ has agreed with UTR, as we all are. Thank God, finally, maybe a break in the Hatfield and McCoy feud.

Before there's too much celebrating, SJ, I'm not entirely sure JJ caught the full import of my wording on the post where he said he agreed with me. Nor am I sure there would be any agreement as to why I don't believe RG was seen with a Mystery Woman in Lewisburg. But enjoy the moment while it lasts, lol.

J. J. in Phila

08-10-2007, 12:06 PM

I can see two possibilities where there is no LMW.

1. The man was not RFG. The witnesses are wrong in that identification.

2. The man was RFG but the witnesses saw a casual, and impromptu, conversations between strangers. The woman asked for directions. Or she asked his opinion of something she was purchasing. Or she asks him for the time.

In the first case, LMW hears the report and says, **I was with "Joe," not with RFG, so they don't mean me.**

In the second case, the LWM does not remember a brief conversation she had with someone the day before.

I'll say something here, and I'll bet I'll be taken to task by TG for it. Of the post phone call witness reports, the one that seems to be the most credible is the one in Wilkes-Barre.

1. You have two witnesses who saw the same thing at the same time. Both were 100% sure.

2. It was an extended sighting, not a fleeting glimpse.

3. In the conversation the Wilkes-Barre man had, he discussed a favorite topic of RFG, the Cleveland Indians.

Now even with all that, I give that witness report no more than a 50% chance of being RFG.

UndertheRadar

08-10-2007, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
The dogs did not find Gricar's scent by the river, at the Street of Shops, or anywhere but right there at the car.

That rules out the mystery woman at Lewisburg completely IMO.

Gricar simply was not there in the SOS.

JMHO

That's where I stand on the Lewisburg Mystery Woman as well, Pgal.

day2day

08-10-2007, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
IN A DAZE, TRIPS OVER day2day AND PASSES OUT!

:santa:
:santa:

WHERE IS G. STICKLEY WHEN YOU NEED HER?

LOL you are goin to be in BIG trouble sister for using TWO rofl santas...and besides when ya tripped YOU bruised my side :D

Serendipitous1

08-10-2007, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

That's where I stand on the Lewisburg Mystery Woman as well, Pgal. My opinion: That takes a lot of faith...in dogs, in LE candidness, and in journalistic accuracy. I cannot say I share your enthusiasm in that regard.

On another note...posters who expect replies to PMs should learn how to keep their boxes open. Talk about frustrating!

UndertheRadar

08-10-2007, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion: That takes a lot of faith...in dogs, in LE candidness, and in journalistic accuracy. I cannot say I share your enthusiasm in that regard.

I have some difficulty discerning where you place your faith, though, S1. FBI forensics experts, other science experts, LE with 25 years experience working cases, statistical analysis of cases, all of that says someone could be in a car for an hour and not leave evidence, yet you continue to say you disbelieve the truth of that.

Serendipitous1

08-10-2007, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

I have some difficulty discerning where you place your faith, though, S1. FBI forensics experts, other science experts, LE with 25 years experience working cases, statistical analysis of cases, all of that says someone could be in a car for an hour and not leave evidence, yet you continue to say you disbelieve the truth of that. It is not the "science" which wears me out. It is the application (or lack thereof) in this case...and the 3 "points of faith" in my previous post. My opinion.

UndertheRadar

08-10-2007, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It is not the "science" which wears me out. It is the application (or lack thereof) in this case...and the 3 "points of faith" in my previous post. My opinion.

But with regard to the Mini, and the theoretical possibility of someone else having been the driver, what keeps you arguing that it would not be possible? That is what I have never seen you explain, and I see no scientific basis for your position.

When it comes to my own posts on the issue, I have certainly never argued for more than the scientific possibility that someone other RG drove the car, largely to counter the fallacious argument that "no evidence of anyone else" automatically translates to "no one else." Scientifically speaking, it clearly doesn't. Taking the argument to the next level, that is, offering proof that someone else did drive the Mini, is a separate question entirely.

And scientifically speaking, the efficacy of Bloodhounds has been tested and proven. We had multiple dogs at the scene, not just one dog. If you can think of a solid investigatory reason Chief Dixon would have for telling the press in multiple ways that there was "no trail" in Lewisburg while withholding information that the dogs actually picked up and followed a trail, I'd be most interested in hearing that theory.

Serendipitous1

08-10-2007, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

But with regard to the Mini, and the theoretical possibility of someone else having been the driver, what keeps you arguing that it would not be possible? That is what I have never seen you explain, and I see no scientific basis for your position.

When it comes to my own posts on the issue, I have certainly never argued for more than the scientific possibility that someone other RG drove the car, largely to counter the fallacious argument that "no evidence of anyone else" automatically translates to "no one else." Scientifically speaking, it clearly doesn't. Taking the argument to the next level, that is, offering proof that someone else did drive the Mini, is a separate question entirely.

And scientifically speaking, the efficacy of Bloodhounds has been tested and proven. We had multiple dogs at the scene, not just one dog. If you can think of a solid investigatory reason Chief Dixon would have for telling the press in multiple ways that there was "no trail" in Lewisburg while withholding information that the dogs actually picked up and followed a trail, I'd be most interested in hearing that theory. I believe I posted yesterday about how the Mini could have been driven for an hour without messing up RG's fingerprints. But I am really in no position to argue the forensics. If it is possible there were no other forensic clues, I believe it is also possible there were (but which we have not heard about...or which were overlooked).

I do not believe dogs are the panacea for determining "presence". And in light of KA's revelations, I believe we have seen that LE has not been exactly candid with the public. And I believe that the journalism in this case, shaped by a sensational story but lacking the requisite inquisitiveness (let alone ability to ferret out the truth), has been, not unexpectedly, quite below exemplary. Our many questions continue to go unanswered. Too bad for Ray Gricar. Just my own opinion.

day2day

08-10-2007, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I believe I posted yesterday about how the Mini could have been driven for an hour without messing up RG's fingerprints. But I am really in no position to argue the forensics. If it is possible there were no other forensic clues, I believe it is also possible there were (but which we have not heard about...or which were overlooked).

I do not believe dogs are the panacea for determining "presence". And in light of KA's revelations, I believe we have seen that LE has not been exactly candid with the public. And I believe that the journalism in this case, shaped by a sensational story but lacking the requisite inquisitiveness (let alone ability to ferret out the truth), has been, not unexpectedly, quite below exemplary. Our many questions continue to go unanswered. Too bad for Ray Gricar. Just my own opinion.

Great post S1..
And you are right in the end -it is too bad for Mr. Gricar. Heartbreaking-even :(

day2day

08-10-2007, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
IMO - the entire *forensic* investigation in this case was sorely lacking.

Right- from day1 something has just "bugged" me about the entire investigation. Releasing the car SO soon-the "lucky finding" of the laptop and the hard-drive...the polygraphs..the tv show! (just to name a few)

jmo of course

UndertheRadar

08-10-2007, 11:25 PM

Greta did about 90 seconds worth of Gricar update at the tail end of her show tonight. Said the emails "continue to pour in" about the case.

Nothing new in the report, of course. But I was glad to see her respond to the fact that people were asking about the case.

J. J. in Phila

08-10-2007, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Right- from day1 something has just "bugged" me about the entire investigation. Releasing the car SO soon-the "lucky finding" of the laptop and the hard-drive...the polygraphs..the tv show! (just to name a few)

jmo of course

The "lucky" finds? It would have been lucky if the drive was found in the first week.

They had the car for about 24 hour and evidentally got the samples they needed.

Polygraphs and TV shows?

J. J. in Phila

08-11-2007, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

If the river search was the first week and the laptop wasn't there yet, it goes beyond luck, all the way to impossible. With no searches after that, it then falls into the 'lucky' find catagory, IMO.

It very easily could have been missed, especially since it was on the "wrong" side of the bridge.

If the car was found at 6:30 pm, and there was a need for BPD to arrive, that would place their time of arrival and processing at about 8-9, therefore it seems logical to conclude the car probably didn't begin to be processed at the station until at least 9:30-10 pm considering towing time. Considering KA said PF was at the station, presumably to pick up the car at 11:30 am, IIRC, that means the car was processed in house in a little over 12 hours, so where are you coming up with the 24 hours?

PEF was presumably questioned at that point.

I recall something on the forum about the car being released late on Sunday. Here is one of the stories:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1385696/posts

The car was brought to state police barracks in Milton today. But after traveling to Milton to meet with state police, Bellefonte Police Chief Duane Dixon said that there were no signs that someone may have broken into the car and that no blood was found inside the vehicle.

“The car looks to be in fine shape,” Dixon said. “At this point, we’ve followed up on every lead we have.”

The car was then turned over to Gricar’s longtime girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, a clerk in the district attorney’s office who filed the missing-person report Friday night.

They did process it:

The red-and-white Mini Cooper Gricar was driving on April 15, the day he disappeared, was found in a Lewisburg parking lot a day later. Because the car is registered in Gricar's girlfriend and housemate Patty Fornicola's name, it was returned to her after it was examined by police.
Erin Nissley 9/29/05

I think one of the reasons for immediately processing it, was the possibility that RFG was in some sort of immediate danger, e.g. a health problem or a kidnapping. You wouldn't want them to sit around and wait in those situations.

I'm under the impression that it was about 24 hours, from finding to return.

UndertheRadar

08-11-2007, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

When can we expect to hear an update forthcoming from those who serve as the voice of the people in Centre County?
It's long overdue.

If the claim is LE has no idea what happened to RG, for the life of me I can't imagine why the public isn't being called upon to assist in every way possible, like any other missing person case. Makes NO sense.
JMO

One other segment on Greta tonight had former D.C. cop Ted Williams, talking about Jennifer Kesse, who went missing the winter after RG did. Part of the discussion was about the Kesse family distributing playing cards with Jennifer's information to inmates (Bernie Grimm chimed in how good an idea this was because in his words, "if you want to know what the weather is going to be in the next 15 minutes, ask an inmate.") Williams kept stressing how important it is keep the missing person's photo and information out in the public eye as a way for LE to generate leads. Just thought this was interesting coming from someone with an LE background, emphasizing exactly what we've been saying here.

J. J. in Phila

08-11-2007, 03:00 AM

No, you've been saying flyers are effective. Don't confuse posting flyers (which are useful in some situations) with press coverage.

UndertheRadar

08-11-2007, 12:02 PM

JJ, I'm not the one confused.

I was the one actually listening to Ted Williams, former homicide detective with the Washington, D.C. police department, talk about the issue.

The discussion had NOTHING to do with press coverage.

It had EVERYTHING to do with other avenues of getting information about missing persons "out there," including proactive steps the families of the missing were taking. The playing cards being distributed in prison with Jennifer Kesse's information are actually part of a program administered by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, so obviously Ted Williams is not alone in the law enforcement community in believing that more than "press coverage" is necessary to generate leads.

Believe what you want to. But don't ask the rest of us to believe that press coverage is enough when it has gotten the Gricar case nowhere fast in two+ years and when the major players in missing persons' cases and people in law enforcement disagree with you.

J. J. in Phila

08-11-2007, 03:00 PM

UTR, there is a big difference between putting the case in the public eye and the effectiveness of flyers, as we have seen in numerous cases.

There are some circumstances where flyers can help. The case is not well publicized; there is a specific area where the person is likely to be or has been recently. This is not the case here, at this time.

Now, if RFG's wallet is found in Butte, Montana, for example, it might make a great deal of sense to post flyers in that area. That hasn't happened. It might have made sense to put flyers up in Wilkes-Barrie, after that first week sighting (that's outside of Johnstown Altoona media market). It doesn't at this point.

J. J. in Phila

08-12-2007, 12:59 AM

While looking through the forum, I found this:

I must say it seems that in the majority of e-mails I receive, readers tell me they believe he walked away to enjoy retirement as an anonymous face somewhere else, free from all of the people he had put in prison during his 30-plus years as a prosecutor. Also, Ray's medical records show he never was treated for, or complained of, depression.
Pete Bosak 8/05/06

I think that this is part of the reason why there is no outcry. It might be accurate as well.:shrug: I'd need evidence, and I'd suspect there would be.

day2day

08-12-2007, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

One other segment on Greta tonight had former D.C. cop Ted Williams, talking about Jennifer Kesse, who went missing the winter after RG did. Part of the discussion was about the Kesse family distributing playing cards with Jennifer's information to inmates (Bernie Grimm chimed in how good an idea this was because in his words, "if you want to know what the weather is going to be in the next 15 minutes, ask an inmate.") Williams kept stressing how important it is keep the missing person's photo and information out in the public eye as a way for LE to generate leads. Just thought this was interesting coming from someone with an LE background, emphasizing exactly what we've been saying here.

Mhmm I agree as usual UTR. "Out of sight -out of mind" right?
I believe it is STILL important for Mr. Gricar's pic to still be out there...that is -if we ever want to learn the truth..

J. J. in Phila

08-12-2007, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Mhmm I agree as usual UTR. "Out of sight -out of mind" right?
I believe it is STILL important for Mr. Gricar's pic to still be out there...that is -if we ever want to learn the truth..

D2D according several recent posts there is still interest. It's that a lot (possibly a majority) think RFG walked away. Even if that could be eliminated, or at least the chance of it reduced, there may be a greater call to investigate.

day2day

08-12-2007, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

D2D according several recent posts there is still interest. It's that a lot (possibly a majority) think RFG walked away. Even if that could be eliminated, or at least the chance of it reduced, there may be a greater call to investigate.

That is why I believe whatever happened to Mr. Gricar was WELL planned. This case leads in so many directions ...with no real solid leads anywhere...it is mind boggling at times..

:shrug:

J. J. in Phila

08-12-2007, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by day2day

That is why I believe whatever happened to Mr. Gricar was WELL planned. This case leads in so many directions ...with no real solid leads anywhere...it is mind boggling at times..

D2D, there is absolutely no way that anyone could have pulled off all that was needed, just to make the phone call, without a great deal of prior research. You can rule out any spontaneous action followed by a cover up, possibly excepting by someone with a great deal of training in LE practices; even then, it would be difficult.

If this was a murder, I would strongly suspect RFG was lured to Lewisburg.

If this was a walkaway, RFG planned it exceptionally well and in detail.

day2day

08-12-2007, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

D2D, there is absolutely no way that anyone could have pulled off all that was needed, just to make the phone call, without a great deal of prior research. You can rule out any spontaneous action followed by a cover up, possibly excepting by someone with a great deal of training in LE practices; even then, it would be difficult.

If this was a murder, I would strongly suspect RFG was lured to Lewisburg.

If this was a walkaway, RFG planned it exceptionally well and in detail.

uhoh....I might just agree with you j.j....(checks to see if the moon is full..j/k)

Alot of research and/or someone who was very close to Mr. Gricar. IMO if it was someone he knew "well" how hard would it be to "lure" him to Lewisburg?!

sherrijean981

08-12-2007, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by day2day

uhoh....I might just agree with you j.j....(checks to see if the moon is full..j/k)

Alot of research and/or someone who was very close to Mr. Gricar. IMO if it was someone he knew "well" how hard would it be to "lure" him to Lewisburg?!

Glory be! Another agreement!

My thoughts were on the "luring" by someone that could be close to RG and RG could have found out something very serious on that friend. Whether through the confidential informants in the big drug bust or by someone else, MW from Tyrone or Lewisburg? Maybe someone's wife, secretary or relative?

J. J. in Phila

08-12-2007, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by day2day

uhoh....I might just agree with you j.j....(checks to see if the moon is full..j/k)

Alot of research and/or someone who was very close to Mr. Gricar. IMO if it was someone he knew "well" how hard would it be to "lure" him to Lewisburg?!

Not necessarily someone trusted, but someone that can create a credible excuse to get RFG to Lewisburg.

When I say excuse, it would have to be, "I can't meet you in the office or be seen with you in Bellefonte because ______?" Whatever goes in that blank has to be a credible enough reason for RFG to agree to go to Lewisburg.

J. J. in Phila

08-13-2007, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Do people in general believe it? The general concensus of those I talk to is a belief that after this amount of time with no answers, foul play is the most likely scenario.

The people that you talk to might be far from representative of Centre County or the general population.

For example, on this board, suicide has very few adherents. In general, I'd suspect it was more in the general population.

You, and JKA, fails to understand the point. People have not forgotten RFG, but I would suspect that a minority thinks it is foul play. My particular problem is that you might be able to make the chance of it being foul play more or less likely, with further investigation.

J. J. in Phila

08-13-2007, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

ALL of the people I talk to are representative of Centre County. They are CC residents, from ALL walks of life. If one reads who PB answers questions from, they are from Ohio, Virginia, NY, NM, Co., Fla., overseas, etc., certainly not respresentative of Centre County as you seem to indicate.

The majority of PA questions are not CC based either, unless one concludes all of the Anonymous are local, which may or may not be a fact, but if they are, seems like people are cautious when it comes to letting the newspaper know who they are. Probably afraid they'll be next.......'why now, george?' 'why now, sally?'

LW, from what I've seen people have not RFG, in either Centre County or in general. I would however question the claim that a majority thinks it is foul play (and it might be foul play).

What the reporters are saying seems to indicate that. The poor reaction to JKA's pages seems to indicate that.

UndertheRadar

08-13-2007, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

Two days after RG went missing, the CDT headlines states SUICIDE POSSIBLE. What a surprise that people then went around saying it was probably suicide since that is what they were led to believe by the media.

Later as the case was growing colder, no body found to go with the suicide theory, thus causing people to find it hard to believe, we then see the 'MISSED LEADS' article (May 13, 2006) and DATELINE (May 15, 2006) with the 'lead' detective walking through the SOS showing people the route RG walked with his MW, with the news of a Tyrone sighting of him with a woman fitting the same description, coupled with the mystery book opened to the page about how to fill the DA position 'in the event', and for good measure the Fenton sighting of RG on Friday, 3 PM, is thrown in all at the same time.

How amazing is it really that ten weeks later PB then tells us he gets emails, (obviously from readers, or how would they know of him or where to email him)unless the info is from the source where everything directed at the public is toward runaway? ? IMO, NOT amazing at all.

Do people in general believe it? The general concensus of those I talk to is a belief that after this amount of time with no answers, foul play is the most likely scenario.
JMO

The majority I have spoken with also believe that foul play is the most likely scenario.

Whether that viewpoint represents what most Centre Countians believe or not, I suppose we wouldn't know without an actual poll of most Centre Countians.

But if there's any truth to what JJ claims (IF), I think you are absolutely correct that the perception it's something other than foul play exists because that's the picture that has been painted in "the publicity campaign" in this disappearance. The average Centre Countian has not spent the last two years going through articles on RG with a fine tooth comb and analyzing every last word. In fact, the average Centre Countian probably heard a few news reports early on and maybe read a few of the early articles where the big three theories were given, then heard the PSP-CIA repetition of the same, and that's about as far as the average Center Countian's knowledge of the case goes.

And to return to an earlier theme, what they haven't seen is this case being treated like the typical missing persons' case in which concern about foul play is paramount.

On that note, JJ did raise an interesting point a few days ago, if only inadvertently, when he mentioned RG's wallet. I would bet that of the average Centre Countians who are aware RG is missing, probably less than half could tell you that RG's sunglasses and car keys went missing along with him. We here on the boards know this, and yes, that's been in the news articles, but vast numbers of people don't read news articles closely and don't retain smaller details like that.

And even those of us obsessed with the case don't have a clue what RG's sunglasses look like or what his car keys look like. Those items are a perfect example of how a poster campaign could be effective in generating leads. If you look at Kristen Modafferi's website, you'll find photos of the kind of Jansport backpack she was carrying when she disappeared and of the distinctive shoes she was wearing at the time. Why don't we have posters showing the kind of sunglasses that went missing with RG and of the kind of keyring that held his keys? Either item, especially the sunglasses, could have been found or could be found without the finder realizing they had anything to do with RG's disappearance. If posters were plastered all around Central PA asking for any information about the disappearance and including photos of sunglasses and keyring like the ones missing, a finder of such an item would have a reason to understand the item had value to an ongoing investigation into a missing persons' case rather than just being, say, a dropped pair of sunglasses. The same photos appearing in the newspaper and on the internet would have maximum exposure. JMO.

day2day

08-13-2007, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Glory be! Another agreement!

My thoughts were on the "luring" by someone that could be close to RG and RG could have found out something very serious on that friend. Whether through the confidential informants in the big drug bust or by someone else, MW from Tyrone or Lewisburg? Maybe someone's wife, secretary or relative?

Exactly SJ...maybe someone who worked for him!! IMO it would have to be someone who knew intimate details of his life..

and Glory BE is right..LOL!!:D

J. J. in Phila

08-13-2007, 01:20 PM

UTR, if I though that there was very likely that RFG walked away, I wouldn't be posting.

I think that if there was new information, that would attract public attention. Even being able to say, here is why it is very unlikely that RFG did leave voluntarily could generate that interest. I do not agree, however, the the general public has to be reminded that RFG is missing.

UndertheRadar

08-13-2007, 01:34 PM

The point of a publicity campaign isn't simply to "remind" the public that someone is missing, though.

J. J. in Phila

08-13-2007, 03:32 PM

UTR, a few weeks ago, that was what someone suggested was the purpose of JKA's pages.

I doubt it any of the regular residents (as opposed to college students) need reminding. I lament what her pages could have been.

UndertheRadar

08-13-2007, 04:34 PM

KA's website has nothing to do with the kind of publicity campaign mounted in a typical missing persons' case. Separate issue entirely. You are quite capable of creating your own website on Gricar which you will not have to "lament."

And as I have pointed out, the purpose of such a publicity campaign is not a "reminder" that someone is missing. (Though quite frankly, I think if actual polling were done and if it covered all of Centre County, not just State College/University Park, you'd likely find that a significant percentage polled could tell you only that Ray Gricar was "that guy who disappeared" and another reasonable percentage would never even have heard of Ray Gricar. Only 69% of the American public knows that Dick Cheney is the Vice President of the United States, and only 65% can identify Condi Rice. Only 66% can name their own state's governor. Only 49% know who Nancy Pelosi is, and only 21% know who Robert Gates is. These are names and faces with regular media spotlight on them and big state, national and international stories on a regular basis. So I'm not holding out a lot of hope for D.A. Ray Gricar in terms of automatic name recognition).

But back to my point. A publicity campaign if well-orchestrated functions on a lot of different levels, a large part of which is to establish in the public's mind that this missing person is someone the family, loved ones, and LE are actively seeking information regarding--that this is a real person desperately missed and loved by real people who desperately need and want help from anyone in the public who can come forward with ANY information.

That's probably what happened in the Bish case. From what I have read, the hunter who found the pieces of the blue bathing suit in the woods didn't think much of the find at first, but took the information to a police officer anyway. If there hadn't been such a compelling campaign on the part of the Bish family, so obviously desperate for any piece of information that might lead to answers in Molly's disappearance, the hunter might well have just passed right on by the piece of evidence that led to finding her remains and providing at least that small measure of closure for the family.

For all we know, someone may have already seen RG's sunglasses lying somewhere. And they would have had no idea the sunglasses were an important clue to solving a mystery. Just one small way a more intensive publicity campaign could be helpful in this case.

The bigger way, of course, would be reducing whatever public apathy might be out there. It is very difficult for the public to care about someone who is missing if there is no compelling reason brought before them to make them feel an active search for the person is on-going. I've been reading a lot about cold cases, and Crimestoppers has proven to be very successful in getting new leads and in solving older cases by combining billboards, posters, and rewards. From what I've been reading, it doesn't sound at all to be the reward that's drawing the tips but the sense that many people felt urged on by a "call to action." One LE officer talked about people calling in and saying they didn't realize police were still looking for information in given cases.

The more I read, the more I see that the publicity DOES work, and I've never come across a case in any of my reading where more publicity HURT a case.

tiredoftheguff

08-13-2007, 09:17 PM

Does anyone know at what time on April 15th 2005 Ray's car was seen pulling out from the quarry that is up the road from the SOS? There must be a reason that the car pulled into the quarry. Have the police or any citizens taken a metal detector to the site to search for potential evidence? The people or person who spotted the car coming from the quarry did they say if there was one person in the car or two? Ray was seen by people at the SOS on the 15th correct? Therefore Ray must have driven the car to Lewisburg. We need to put together the known facts in this case. I do not understand why in the world MM will not turn the case over to the AG. He has said that they have turned over every stone but clearly that is a lie! It is not suicide because there is no body. Ray did not walk away because he would not have put his family through this hell intentionally. He was upset about something and something was going on in his life. The mystery tramp has not come forward because she helped set the entire thing up and she is guilty as all get out and probably afraid for her own life at this point. Obviously there were several people involved. I think parts of what CB said were possibly accurate. I think someone had been watching him...and planning. It really does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Why in the world would they put DZ in charge of this case?? What were they thinking? If no candle light vigil by next year...I will make sure there is one. You will see me in front of the court house with my signs. I will raise all kinds of heck! Ray deserves so much better than this crap! Where exactly was Ray's car when it was seen pulled over with a construction worker type leaning in?

day2day

08-13-2007, 10:46 PM

Great post totg! Nice to "see" you posting!!:seeya:

J. J. in Phila

08-14-2007, 01:25 AM

LW, you are being unrealistic. Unless RFG only bought particular brands, those details may be unknown. At best, shoe size might be possible, but I don't recall that detail being released in other cases.

Knowing that RFG wore sunglasses, a blue fleece, had keys, et c. would be enough for anyone finding any of those items to call LE, if they were found in the area at the time.

Finding them out of the area, unless they are personalized, would not lead back to RFG.

UndertheRadar

08-14-2007, 02:38 AM

Specific details have been released in other cases, as the Modafferi case shows. Note the specificity with regard to both the backpack and the shoes:

To the right is a picture of the green Jansport backpack which Kristen wore as she traveled around the Bay area. Please note the black mesh pocket, which is somewhat less common than most backpacks seen on young people moving around the city and countryside. We think that if the backpack is found, it may give us some clues as to what happened to Kristen when she vanished without a trace on June 23, 1997.

Kristen had a pair of very distinctive shoes which we believe she was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The brand is "Fly London" and they have laces both in front and behind the heel. They also have an imprint of a fly on the soles of each shoe. We now have a photo of these shoes, which is reproduced below. If you have seen these shoes (or anyone wearing them), please call 1-800-VANISHED with details.

http://www.modlink.com/kristen/html/photos.htm

While LE and the media may not always publicize such details, these are the kinds of specifics families and loved ones can often provide. As PF pointed out, SHE did the laundry. She may well have been familiar with brands. I could certainly tell you brands of jeans, shirts, outwear, sneakers, boots, etc., and I think most women could as well for their S.O.'s.

J. J. in Phila

08-14-2007, 03:03 AM

I do the laundry at my place and I couldn't tell you all the brands of his clothing.

As for the shoes, the term "very distinctive" comes into play. I, for example, I have an Army field jacket with several (non-military) organizational patches on it. If I disappeared the jacket, those patches would be an important detail. I Just saying that I have an Army field jacked, and showing a photo of one wouldn't distinguish me from any the probably millions of people out their with an army field jacket.

If there is nothing distinctive, photos of a pair of jeans (even a pair of Levy's), a common pair of sunglasses, or common fleece, isn't exactly more helpful. Nor would a more detailed description.

J. J. in Phila

08-14-2007, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Do you know for a fact RG did not buy particular name brands of clothing?

Do you know for a fact that he did? I know of no man that buys their clothing off the rack that only buys one brand.

Articles of clothing or sunglasses or keys, all non-descript could easily be overlooked.

They key word is "nondescript." A key ring, unless it has a specific logo or monogram is nondescript. The only way to tell is if the keys fit locks that he had access to. Same with the sunglasses. We can identify the laptop because it has a serial number. Keys, sunglasses, clothing are all much more common than the computer.

Many people do read labels, especially if doing laundry. Sneaker size, style, color, name brand is usually not a 'secret' either. Same with key chain and sunglasses. Did LE get any of those details from the SO and if so, is there some reason they are not public information?
JMO

The reason is because most of what you are referring to is completely nondescript. Saying I have a pair of Timberland boots, brown, will not distinguish them from any other of the 1000's of brown Timberland boots within a one mile radius of my home. Only if they are "personalized" in some way can they be identified.

UndertheRadar

08-14-2007, 11:05 AM

JJ, if you do your father's laundry and you don't know what brands of clothing HE has, how in God's green earth could you possibly know whether other men who "buy off the rack" buy only one brand or multiple brands? Seems contradictory that you don't you know your own father's clothing but you pay attention to other men's.

I don't have to look far to say my S.O. buys only one brand of jeans. Not only that, he buys only one "make and model" of the brand. If those aren't available, he doesn't buy new jeans.

Giving as much detail as possible only makes sense. If the other items are "non-descript," it is because we have nothing to identify them by. I couldn't begin to tell you what KIND of key ring might hold RG's keys, and I couldn't tell you if RG's sunglasses were aviator style, wrap-around, oval, or whatever. Even small details like that would be useful.

People do include brands names and small details in description of missing persons.

Jeremy Bright was 13 years old when he went to the Coos County Fair with friends.
He has not been seen since. He has scars on his forehead and nose, and a mole on his chin. He was last seen wearing a black windbreaker jacket and black Nike shoes with red shoe laces. 1-800-282-7155

Gregory McCormick, DOB 09/25/00, 6 years old, 5', 80 pounds, black hair in several long twisted pony tails, brown eyes, thin build. Missing left front tooth (growing in). Last seen wearing: Green Polo shirt w/ white letters on the chest and blue sleeves, blue jeans, black and white Puma tennis shoes.

Brooke Wilberger: She was last seen wearing a Indigo hooded sweatshirt, Gray Brigham Young University T-shirt, dark blue jeans, small hoop earrings, possibly a silver watch, a ring with "CTR" engraved on it and NO shoes. Brooke has a scar extending from her right wrist to her elbow from a previous gymnastics accident. She has a piercing in the top of her right ear without an earring.

What is the argument against doing so?

tonyGricar

08-14-2007, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by tiredoftheguff
Does anyone know at what time on April 15th 2005 Ray's car was seen pulling out from the quarry that is up the road from the SOS? There must be a reason that the car pulled into the quarry. Have the police or any citizens taken a metal detector to the site to search for potential evidence? The people or person who spotted the car coming from the quarry did they say if there was one person in the car or two? Ray was seen by people at the SOS on the 15th correct? Therefore Ray must have driven the car to Lewisburg.

We need to put together the known facts in this case.

It is not suicide because there is no body. Ray did not walk away because he would not have put his family through this hell intentionally.
The "known facts" of the case do not include the quarry sighting. A car similar was apparently seen. The license plates, which were a simple 3 letter run, were not alluded to. That's one thing that's stood out to me on the alleged sightings of "Ray's" car. Many Mini's, like the new VW Bugs, feature vanity plates. Ray's plates (or for argument's sake, Patty's) were a very simple 3 character set. 3, centered, characters should stand out even more due to the centering and associated blank space on either side. I've never heard of anyone pointing this out on the sightings. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall anyone providing that level of detail.

Btw, as I've never seen anyone here want to admit this, it is actually plausible for a body to have made it to the Chesapeake Bay. 105 or so miles, if memory serves. And I'm referring to this as either due to suicide OR a body dump.

J. J. in Phila

08-14-2007, 01:27 PM

Because men do discuss these things occasionally. I know where most of my father's clothing comes from, because I buy it. I don't however, pay attention to the tags.

Men, and I would guess women too, rarely only buy just one brand of clothing.

And, you've just posted, minus the distinctive aspects, the same things we see in RFG's descriptions. The "lettering" in that one case, doesn't tell us very much.

Now, if there was something distinctive, the clothes had RFG's initials embroidered on them, or they were rare for the area, the fleece had an Indians patch on the left breast, I could see those things being included.

J. J. in Phila

08-14-2007, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar

Btw, as I've never seen anyone here want to admit this, it is actually plausible for a body to have made it to the Chesapeake Bay. 105 or so miles, if memory serves. And I'm referring to this as either due to suicide OR a body dump.

Alluded to, in the 14% suicide possibility. It is possible, but the was start of fishing season and there will more people on the lower Susquehanna. If the river was lower, I'd drop the chance to 10%.

My problem is, from everything that the locals have said, bodies in the river are usually recovered, whether the body was dumped, pushed, jumped or fell into the river, in the first place.

UndertheRadar

08-14-2007, 01:39 PM

JJ, why do you make the simple so difficult?

More details are better than few details.

We have few details about either the clothing Gricar was wearing or the items that went missing with him.

That is the bottom line, and that is something that could likely be remedied.

I think "black Nike shoes with red shoe laces," "Green Polo shirt w/ white letters on the chest and blue sleeves, blue jeans, black and white Puma tennis shoes," and "Indigo hooded sweatshirt, Gray Brigham Young University T-shirt, dark blue jeans, small hoop earrings, possibly a silver watch, a ring with "CTR" engraved on it and NO shoes" are much more descriptive than what we have gotten in RG's case, as is the description of KM's backpack and of her shoes.

How would anyone recognize RG's keyring if it was found? Or his sunglasses? Finding and identifying items like this can make a difference. Molly Bish's bathing suit did.

tonyGricar

08-14-2007, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

do You think that's what occurred - in the river?

and if so - why didn't the dogs find his scent at the river? I still don't have a solid inclination in any direction, short of the runaway theory being the least likely. I merely throw the river in as a possibility because I have been told it's a possibility and that it has apparently happened before. As a note, last year a body made it down a river, over a low dam or two, and to the Ohio River before it was recovered. 40+ miles IIRC.

As for the scent dogs... I'm not touching that with a 10' pole. ;)

Serendipitous1

08-14-2007, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar

The "known facts" of the case do not include the quarry sighting. A car similar was apparently seen. The license plates, which were a simple 3 letter run, were not alluded to. That's one thing that's stood out to me on the alleged sightings of "Ray's" car. Many Mini's, like the new VW Bugs, feature vanity plates. Ray's plates (or for argument's sake, Patty's) were a very simple 3 character set. 3, centered, characters should stand out even more due to the centering and associated blank space on either side. I've never heard of anyone pointing this out on the sightings. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall anyone providing that level of detail.

Btw, as I've never seen anyone here want to admit this, it is actually plausible for a body to have made it to the Chesapeake Bay. 105 or so miles, if memory serves. And I'm referring to this as either due to suicide OR a body dump. All my opinion:

Accidental or suicidal drowning would not seem to explain the laptop and hard drive finds. If RG's driving stopped in Lewisburg that day, no theory which has RG in the water seems that viable. But what if he drove from Lewisburg to another destination (where something bad happened and the Mini was returned to Lewisburg)? There was a Mini sighting which only became known to the public through the "Haunting Evidence" episode on RG - at the Shikellamy State Park overlook area. I would be interested to know more details about that sighting - when it occurred, description of the occupant(s), other vehicles, etc.

If he did end up in the water at Lewisburg, it seems other bodies have been recovered in the river not all that far from where they went in. And there were undoubtedly boaters (and maybe fishermen too? although I do not believe they fish for trout in the river) out that weekend, as water levels had been receding for some time prior. But, if it is possible for a floating body to navigate all of the islands, and the dams at Sunbury, Safe Harbor, Holtwood, Conowingo and Havre de Grace, do you have any data on probable velocities that weekend?

If I recall correctly, the aerial search of the river began within 48 hours of the supposed call from RG to PF, and extended south as far as Harrisburg. At an average speed of 2 feet per second or less, that reach seems reasonable. But any faster and the search may not have extended far enough downstream.

Serendipitous1

08-14-2007, 03:26 PM

My opinion: my bad - no dam at Havre de Grace...that is the mouth at the Chesapeake. By the way, I scaled these distances from the Lewisburg bridge:

Main branch of the Susquehanna - 8 miles
Dam at Sunbury - 10 miles
Route 81 at Harrisburg - 61 miles
Safe Harbor dam - 111 miles
Holtwood dam - 121 miles
Conowingo dam - 138 miles
Havre de Grace - 149 miles

tonyGricar

08-14-2007, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
All my opinion:

Accidental or suicidal drowning would not seem to explain the laptop and hard drive finds.

There was a Mini sighting which only became known to the public through the "Haunting Evidence" episode on RG - at the Shikellamy State Park overlook area. I would be interested to know more details about that sighting - when it occurred, description of the occupant(s), other vehicles, etc. My own opinion is that, if suicide, destruction of the hard drive is in no way surprising. My entire life, with no exaggeration, is on my laptop, and I am a very private person. Suicidal people usually have the thought that nobody understands, or could understand, them.

The obvious counter to this is that we have been told he rarely used the laptop. If he used it when PF wasn't around, she wouldn't be lying about the use, she just wouldn't know it. But in no way do I think that the destruction of the hard drive would not be related to a possible suicide. If foul-play, of course I also can see relevancy in the destruction. Walkaway scenario, no, unless to provide a red herring.

In the immediate days following the disappearance, a group of us covered quite a bit of Shikellamy and the Overlook (and "under"look). We heard of, nor saw, anything to indicate he had been there. Now, admittedly, I still have not seen the episode of that show, so I'm not sure of the portrayal. Seems CB's "visions" have been trumped by the other psychics on the show as we never heard anything about the pharmacy or the Overlook from her.

We also checked the inflatable dam there and it was in the down position and not apparently catching any noticeable debris.

tonyGricar

08-14-2007, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion: my bad - no dam at Havre de Grace...that is the mouth at the Chesapeake. By the way, I scaled these distances from the Lewisburg bridge:

Main branch of the Susquehanna - 8 miles
Dam at Sunbury - 10 miles
Route 81 at Harrisburg - 61 miles
Safe Harbor dam - 111 miles
Holtwood dam - 121 miles
Conowingo dam - 138 miles
Havre de Grace - 149 miles Do you know which of those are inflatables vs. earthen? Sunbury is inflatable and was down, as I've mentioned before.

tonyGricar

08-14-2007, 03:48 PM

While we're on the subject, some of the divers that I have spoken to indicated that there would be no problem for the Susq to conceal a body for quite some time due to the vast number of undercuts of earth along the river's edges and in the islands.

I'd think such a scenario would be exponentially higher in probability than making the Bay.

Serendipitous1

08-14-2007, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Do you know which of those are inflatables vs. earthen? Sunbury is inflatable and was down, as I've mentioned before. I believe the others are concrete, hydroelectric dams. I was to Holtwood dam in my youth, and my memory is of seeing a lot of debris collected behind it. My opinion.

Serendipitous1

08-14-2007, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
While we're on the subject, some of the divers that I have spoken to indicated that there would be no problem for the Susq to conceal a body for quite some time due to the vast number of undercuts of earth along the river's edges and in the islands.

I'd think such a scenario would be exponentially higher in probability than making the Bay. My opinion: I would agree. And having personally observed some of the divers' operations, RG's body (if he went into the water) could still be very close by...as in the creek, not the river.

J. J. in Phila

08-14-2007, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Do you know which of those are inflatables vs. earthen? Sunbury is inflatable and was down, as I've mentioned before.

As far as I can tell, these four are concrete:

York Haven Dam

Safe Harbor Dam

Holtwood Dam

Conowingo Dam

They all general hydro electric power. I called up pictures and only one looked like it was a "low head," water spilling over the top.

As for the computer in walkaway, I can come up with two realistic possibilities:

1. Researching a route, inclusive of maps and transport schedules.

2. Monitoring assets online.

I could see the laptop being disposed of in a suicide, but why remove the drive.

Serendipitous1

08-14-2007, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
<Snip>
In the immediate days following the disappearance, a group of us covered quite a bit of Shikellamy and the Overlook (and "under" look). We heard of, nor saw, anything to indicate he had been there. My observations: Psychic "visions" aside, the reported sighting at the overlook was mentioned by Thal. There is a lot of vegetated ground between the overlook and the bottom...nearly impossible to search thoroughly. There are two main overlook areas, fairly heavily "touristed". But there are other, more secluded areas along the precipice. And the rather low fence throughout would not be a formidable barrier.

Serendipitous1

08-14-2007, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

As far as I can tell, these four are concrete:
York Haven Dam
Safe Harbor Dam
Holtwood Dam
Conowingo Dam

They all general hydro electric power. I called up pictures and only one looked like it was a "low head," water spilling over the top.

As for the computer in walkaway, I can come up with two realistic possibilities:
1. Researching a route, inclusive of maps and transport schedules.
2. Monitoring assets online.

I could see the laptop being disposed of in a suicide, but why remove the drive. My opinion:

Thanks J.J. I did not see the York Haven Dam...although it appears that dam does not span the entire river.

It would be wonderful to know the significance of the laptop, pre-disappearance, and whether the found hard drive came from RG's laptop. Another problem I have with the suicide theory (whether by drowning or otherwise) has been my firm belief that the laptop (or at least the found hard drive) was not in the river that weekend. But it is possible I suppose.

tonyGricar

08-14-2007, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
It would be wonderful to know the significance of the laptop, pre-disappearance, and whether the found hard drive came from RG's laptop. Another problem I have with the suicide theory (whether by drowning or otherwise) has been my firm belief that the laptop (or at least the found hard drive) was not in the river that weekend. But it is possible I suppose. I agree, which is why I was so disappointed that the needle in the haystack was found and then was apparently damaged beyond readability. Quite the tease...

I don't necessarily doubt that the laptop/drive were in the river at the time of his disappearance, but I also am surprised by very little. I spent enough time there to see how the dark case of the laptop could be missed, given the higher water levels at the time. The hard drive actually being found, to me at least, has always been nothing short of astonishing.

I plan on spending quite a bit of time this fall talking with people re: this case as I plan to be in the area quite often.

Serendipitous1

08-14-2007, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
I agree, which is why I was so disappointed that the needle in the haystack was found and then was apparently damaged beyond readability. Quite the tease...

I don't necessarily doubt that the laptop/drive were in the river at the time of his disappearance, but I also am surprised by very little. I spent enough time there to see how the dark case of the laptop could be missed, given the higher water levels at the time. The hard drive actually being found, to me at least, has always been nothing short of astonishing.

I plan on spending quite a bit of time this fall talking with people re: this case as I plan to be in the area quite often. I could envision someone else driving the Mini (back from Shikellamy Park, for instance), and someone (perhaps a smoker passenger) tossing the laptop off the bridge. But, in my opinion, that hard drive was put there later. "We" have long needed a new approach to this case. It is good to know someone (else) is still actively "investigating", beyond these boards. My opinion.

Serendipitous1

08-14-2007, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
Just my amateur opinion --

if it was foul play - I don't believe the body would have been dumped at the river there in Lewisburg.

It seems much too conspicuous of a location IMO. I would tend to believe that it would be placed in a much more secluded area. My opinion: I agree 100%. There is no crime scene, per se, in Lewisburg. And that includes suicide by drowning...as far as we know. The great debate continues to be when and from where RG disappeared...and why?

Serendipitous1

08-14-2007, 10:34 PM

Well, due to the total silence, there you have it in a nutshell (here). All posts which do not portray PF as the protagonist in RG's disappearance get ignored! So much for keeping open minds. Alters do abound...apparently. Good luck to all.

J. J. in Phila

08-15-2007, 12:52 AM

I think I'm going to disagree with TG slightly, regarding the laptop.

For the purposes of this, assume that I'm living in the same house and driving the same car

1. Assume I have a laptop and I'm planning to kill myself. There is something private on my laptop that I never want to see the light of day. It's embarrassing or intensely private. What would I do?

Take out the drive, maybe drive a nail through it, and toss it into the river. When LE gets the laptop and it's in the case, they probably won't turn it on immediately; that might buy me a day or so. I'd throw it in the water so that:

A. It wouldn't be found immediately.

B. The water would destroy the data even more.

2. Assume that I don't have anything embarrassing on it, but I was using it, and wanted to destroy the last things that I did. What would I do?

Toss the laptop in the river, with the drive still in it. It probably won't be found immediately; by the time it's found, the drive will be useless. Maybe I'll remove the drive and toss it separately. There is a problem; unless I brought a screw drive or a pen knife, I can't unscrew it. I can break open the laptop and remove the drive (but that didn't happen).

3. Assume that I've just murdered someone, with a laptop, but there is nothing incriminating on the hard drive. What am I going to do?

Leave it. Let LE have all the fun of seeing which boards my victim posts on and trying to track down everyone he's had contact with.

4. Assume I've just murdered someone, with a laptop, but there is something incriminating on the hard drive. What am I going to do?

Panic! I have no idea if the victim has copied the incriminating data to a disk, CD or another computer. The only way that I know this is if I have had the computer in sight since the victim loaded it into the laptop. I'd have to tear up his house and office looking for a possibly nonexistent CD or disk.

The only reason I'd do this is to destroy the sole copy.

Numbers 2 and 4 are the most likely.

tonyGricar

08-15-2007, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
All posts which do not portray PF as the protagonist in RG's disappearance get ignored! So much for keeping open minds. Speaking for myself, to almost an obscene level, I have maintained an open mind. I do have the luxury, unlike others here, of having an understanding of the poly questioning. Protag, or antag, I have always maintained an ambivalent sense, because it is my duty. No wavering. No favorites. I have but one loyalty, and that's 100% dedicated to what Ray did for me when my own Father disappeared. I think that's the simple piece that people seem to not recognize when it comes to my "allegiances". Ray did something for me, and us, that cannot be repaid, short of discovering what happened to him. I was close to what some would call a "kid" at the time. I was too young to assume the role I found myself in, and was not then prepared for what I would later have to assume 9 years later. Roy prepped me for this, Ray helped me through that, and today, I find myself in the precarious position of having to repay an overwhelming debt. Patriarch should not be bestowed upon anyone in their early 30's. Never. An underestimation of that term is the reader's fault. To me, it is an absolute. It's the reality of what I have on my shoulders, and one that I undertake with the utmost seriousness. I'm not a former ADA lobbing potshots whenever deemed necessary. I'm the one dealing with this for 11 years. To question me on this is to not have a clue of who I am, or what I aim to accomplish.

Patty, by anyone's definition, was not technically family. Do my Uncle's view of her give me a certain opinion? Of course. But nothing supercedes what my Uncle did for me 11 years ago. That's the simple reality of what I hope to achieve. One, objective solution.

I think my own friends and family can attest to my loyalties. Ironically, at this point, and in this month, my friends could attest to my loyalties with complete absolution. I am loyal to the end, and when I've been burned, there is a level of wrath that comes with that territory. No matter who it is, until I have reason (the facts at hand), I retain complete objectivity.

tonyGricar

08-15-2007, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
Tony only posts sporadically.

And Bosak doesn't know what he's talking about.

This is absolutely the slowest crime/missing person board I've ever been on - bar none.
You've only been here for a portion of the time. The reality is, like it or not, there is nothing new here. It's mostly a regurg of the previous 2.5 years of postings. I don't post that often for that simple reason. If you want, ignite a discussion on scenting and see how sporadic I become. :D

Bosak is more aware of this case than you recognize, but his Q and A is a poor indicator of that. Hell, I can hardly find the page on my own. If you are a newcomer, and not a CTVer, how do you find it? That should tell you who actually posts there. The redesign, which was terrible, of the CDT was of no help. That was a McClatchy decision, if a bad user-interface decision.

MARKYG10

08-15-2007, 05:30 PM

Great posts, Tony! I don't usually post, but follow as closely as possible, for concern for your uncle. From the start, I've always worried about this situation, & lack of info. in some areas. But, your loyalty comes through with brilliant colors, & that's to be admired. -Marky

Cinderella

08-24-2007, 06:35 AM

gstickley, I have never seen anything pertaining to that article or anything like it. Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember seeing it.

J. J. in Phila

08-24-2007, 01:02 PM

Discover issues are not particularly unusual, IIRC.

Serendipitous1

08-24-2007, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
<Snip>
Does anyone remember reading articles like then when RG was DA? Yes...many, many articles over many years. The Daily Collegian has an extensive, free archive. The CDT does too, but access to a lot of it requires subscription. My opinion.

Laws

08-24-2007, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

PF called her brother, did she not? She has other male friends, does she not?

She didn't need to be walking trails to drive along 192 and see if RG's car was stranded along side of the road after an accident in which he'd been injured.

She didn't need to be dealing with steep drop offs and mountain laurel to see if maybe he'd pulled over because he wasn't feeling well and perhaps had had a heart attack at the wheel.

Those are the things I would have been very worried about, had I been calling and having the phone go straight to voice mail.

That's why I would have called everyone I could think of to see if anyone had heard from him, why I would have checked hospitals, and if I couldn't locate him that way, why I would have found a way to go looking. My S.O. is someone very much like RG, very reliable, and if he didn't show up when I expected him to, it would be so unusual, I would KNOW something was wrong, because it would be entirely out of character for him to let me worry like that.

PF said she expected a note. We've never straightened that whole thing out, as to why or when, given that the phone call would have replaced the note. But if we take her at her word, she expected SOMETHING from RG that would have let her know what he was doing. She didn't have anything to that effect. She would have to know SOMETHING was wrong.

What danger would she be in if she and her brother or a male friend drove out 192 and looked for RG's car? I'm sorry, but I frankly don't see any. I've been on that road at night with a man at the wheel of the car and was never in any danger.

I find it VERY ODD that no phone call was made to the office of Ray Gricar considering that he had been there the night before following his being out of the office for most of that day 4/14 & Friday was a second "unplanned entire day" out of the office.

It has been my experience that persons who utilize cell phones will often leave them in their auto's if they are going into one of their "normal environments" that have land lines & yet no phone call was made there. NOPE, makes no sense to me at all. JMHO

Serendipitous1

08-24-2007, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Laws
<Snip>
I find it VERY ODD that no phone call was made to the office of Ray Gricar considering that he had been there the night before following his being out of the office for most of that day 4/14 & Friday was a second "unplanned entire day" out of the office. Link please. TIA

Laws

08-24-2007, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Stated like a true, Yes/No polygraph question. Well done.

No.

I'm sure I've mentioned it, but my FBI buddy says that I'm the worst candidate for a poly. His psychiatrist ex-wife said I was a terrible candidate for talk therapy. My therapist said I was a terrible candidate for talk therapy and said I should buy a dog. Go figure...

:D

Did your FBI buddy happen to enlighten you as to who are "great" at polygraph passing, what other characteristics their personalities contain? Wondering out loud.

Also, was Mr. Gricar a person who would loan $$'s & how far back were his personal accounts scoured. I am a bean counter & would have gone back at least 3 years of reconstructing his spending patterns through all accounts.

Serendipitous1

08-24-2007, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

You'll be breakin' my heart if you're tellin' me no one from the DA's office showed up at discover(y) hearin's durin' RG's tenure. No, I must have misinterpreted your question.......again!

Laws

08-24-2007, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
and to add to my post

Why haven't police ever shown the surveillance video of Gricar leaving the courthouse that Thurs night?

I know in hundreds of other cases - surveillance videos or photos of missing persons were released to the public - to make them more aware of what to look for. And seeing Gricar's gait, etc or how he holds his head or any number of nuances might help.

Enhanced

sherrijean981

08-27-2007, 11:18 AM

Posted by Sherrijean981 on the weekend thread.

I felt it belonged with the New Investigation to see if it wasn't done by Underwater Forensic Investigators, could it be done in a New Investigation.

Quote:
I was watching an investigative show yesterday, that was going on in Ephrada, PA in the Cocalico Creek, near a dam.

http://www.courttv.com/onair/shows/...ators/q_z_episo
des/troubled_waters.html

A young man and young girl were missing and another young man told LE he killed the girl. Turns out the young man lied about killing her. The other man's dog went after a ball at the dam, and he got caught. The young man went in to get the dog out, he became caught in the undertow of the dam. The young woman went on top of the dam to help him, took off her pants and tried to get him to pull out with them. In the end she went in also. One was found but the other wasn't.

They brought in an Underwater Forensic Investigative team and first had one of the divers lay on top of the water to see where the flow of water took him. They then put 3 red balls in the water to see where the water flow went. Then they had a group of men side by side in the water walking down the creek, or across the creek, and they finally found the young man in the water in a deeper section caught by currents and the debry in the water. Before they brought him up, the had a forensic bag they took under water and put under and around him to catch any type of dna, forensic evidence in the bag with him. Then they put him in another bag, put him on the ground to see what might have caused his accident, and whether they would need to look for other items, like a gun, or club/knife.

I am questioning whether the search of the Susquehanna River included this type of search for RG? Did they go to the first dam down the river to check anything like this out? Everyone says the water would have taken him to the Chesapeake Bay but another person mentioned the Dams before he would have reached the Chesapeake Bay. Maybe he got caught up in one of those? Or along any of the islands in the river?

I found a link on the Underwater Criminal Investigators and what all they do:

http://www.ucidiver.com/
UnderWater Criminal Investigators"
Quote

J. J. in Phila

08-27-2007, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Laws

I find it VERY ODD that no phone call was made to the office of Ray Gricar considering that he had been there the night before following his being out of the office for most of that day 4/14 & Friday was a second "unplanned entire day" out of the office.

It has been my experience that persons who utilize cell phones will often leave them in their auto's if they are going into one of their "normal environments" that have land lines & yet no phone call was made there. NOPE, makes no sense to me at all. JMHO

There is a problem figuring out the incoming calls. The Courthouse, at the time, had a trunk line; the call would be routed to the switch board. Also, if it was a local call to a local number, there doesn't seem to be any record of them.

In PEF's case, she probably knew where he was going as she was with him, at most, 55 minutes before he entered the Courthouse. Unless RFG said, "Patty, I'm going to mysteriously disappear for about three hours," she probably knew where he was.

There are also some other possibilities:

1. The call might have been, but the switchboard was closed, or it went to an empty office. (I couldn't be verified in either case.)

2. PEF may have tried to call him regarding dinner plans, soon after returning from work (My guess is that is likely; it's something I'd do.) He obviously wasn't in the office when she left, he didn't call her (or leave a note) about dinner plans.

J. J. in Phila

08-27-2007, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

I am questioning whether the search of the Susquehanna River included this type of search for RG? Did they go to the first dam down the river to check anything like this out? Everyone says the water would have taken him to the Chesapeake Bay but another person mentioned the Dams before he would have reached the Chesapeake Bay. Maybe he got caught up in one of those? Or along any of the islands in the river?

I found a link on the Underwater Criminal Investigators and what all they do:

http://www.ucidiver.com/
UnderWater Criminal Investigators"
Quote

Good post!

At least several of the dams are hydroelectric plants, so there would be people their 24/7, though not specifically on the lookout for a body.

Other than the air search, I have not heard of any search of the islands.

UndertheRadar

08-27-2007, 12:29 PM

JJ, I'm curious why you're talking about difficulties "figuring out" incoming calls to the courthouse when we don't have any assertion from PF that she called the courthouse to check where RG was.

I'm also curious what you mean by "she probably knew where he was going as she was with him, at most, 55 minutes before he entered the Courthouse."

I'm pretty sure Laws is talking about no call to the courthouse on Friday night when he/she says "I find it VERY ODD that no phone call was made to the office of Ray Gricar considering that he had been there the night before following his being out of the office for most of that day 4/14 & Friday was a second "unplanned entire day" out of the office."

Since that's a question I've raised before as well, I also find it very odd. The office is one of the first places I would have checked for RG, given his penchant for working after hours.

sherrijean981

08-27-2007, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar
JJ, I'm curious why you're talking about difficulties "figuring out" incoming calls to the courthouse when we don't have any assertion from PF that she called the courthouse to check where RG was.

I'm also curious what you mean by "she probably knew where he was going as she was with him, at most, 55 minutes before he entered the Courthouse."

I'm pretty sure Laws is talking about no call to the courthouse on Friday night when he/she says "I find it VERY ODD that no phone call was made to the office of Ray Gricar considering that he had been there the night before following his being out of the office for most of that day 4/14 & Friday was a second "unplanned entire day" out of the office."

Since that's a question I've raised before as well, I also find it very odd. The office is one of the first places I would have checked for RG, given his penchant for working after hours.

When I worked for a company for 10 years as a receptionist/clerk we had the old system with certain lines for 800#'s and two for local numbers. After hours I had to set the local calls to go to an answering machine set up in another office. 800 calls went to a salesman until 8pm.

After going to a Kelly Temp job in an office in Bellefonte their phone system was sent to an answering service which I did from my phones before leaving, just making a call and punching in certain numbers. Did the courthouse at that time, have an answering service for incoming calls after 5pm or 4:30pm? Or was there an answering machine in the courthouse somewhere, if as JJ said they had a switchboard? Was the switchboard manned after hours or put on answering machine that left callers know the courthouse was closed and would reopen at a certain time? Just a few of the different ways I as a receptionist/clerk had to deal with phone calls.

UndertheRadar

08-27-2007, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

When I worked for a company for 10 years as a receptionist/clerk we had the old system with certain lines for 800#'s and two for local numbers. After hours I had to set the local calls to go to an answering machine set up in another office. 800 calls went to a salesman until 8pm.

After going to a Kelly Temp job in an office in Bellefonte their phone system was sent to an answering service which I did from my phones before leaving, just making a call and punching in certain numbers. Did the courthouse at that time, have an answering service for incoming calls after 5pm or 4:30pm? Or was there an answering machine in the courthouse somewhere, if as JJ said they had a switchboard? Was the switchboard manned after hours or put on answering machine that left callers know the courthouse was closed and would reopen at a certain time? Just a few of the different ways I as a receptionist/clerk had to deal with phone calls.

Kinds of phone lines and difficulties figuring out how to check into what calls came in would be relevant, IMO, ONLY if

a) PF had ever said that she called Gricar's office on Friday night to see whether he was there and

b) LE was now trying to verify whether or not that claim was true.

Do we know either of those situations to be a fact? To the best of my knowledge, PF has never publicly stated that she made any calls except those to RG's phone and the one to her brother.

sherrijean981

08-27-2007, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

Kinds of phone lines and difficulties figuring out how to check into what calls came in would be relevant, IMO, ONLY if

a) PF had ever said that she called Gricar's office on Friday night to see whether he was there and

b) LE was now trying to verify whether or not that claim was true.

Do we know either of those situations to be a fact? To the best of my knowledge, PF has never publicly stated that she made any calls except those to RG's phone and the one to her brother.

Do the court house phones have caller ID? Did RG's house phones or their cell phones?

day2day

08-27-2007, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Do the court house phones have caller ID? Did RG's house phones or their cell phones?

IMO -I worked in my County Circuit Clerk's Office and no we didn't have caller id. His home phone I would hope..I am not sure about cell phones (I have NO luck with them)! LOL

J. J. in Phila

08-27-2007, 06:24 PM

UTR, yes, I'm talking about Friday night. We don't know if the call could get to the office. Trying to call the office in that case would not make any sense, if that is the case.

Second, and in terms of evidence, PEF could have called the Courthouse and could have told LE (assuming that a call could get through). LE would have absolutely no way to verify that; they might have released what they had a record of, which would have shown where PEF was calling from.

I'd also have to check to see exactly what PEF said about calling RFG's numbers. I'll try to check.

UndertheRadar

08-27-2007, 06:57 PM

Well, JJ, I'm still curious, then, because how is it that PF "probably knew where he was going as she was with him, at most, 55 minutes before he entered the Courthouse." When was PF with RG on Friday night 55 minutes before he entered the courthouse? Can you explain what you meant when you said that?

As far as I remember, PF's calls to RG were all said to have gone to voice mail, which seemed to indicate calls to his cell phone.

J. J. in Phila

08-27-2007, 09:42 PM

UTR, I'm pointing out that PEF probably knew where RFG was going on Thursday, so, even if possible to get a call into the office, she probably didn't need to. We've discussed bothe 4/14 and 4/15.

UndertheRadar

08-27-2007, 11:24 PM

Okay, JJ.

I'm still not sure why a PF call to the office on Thursday night is in any way relevant.

And PF has never said publicly that she called RG's office looking for him on Friday evening/night, so the issue of trying to "figure out" whether a call was made to the office is moot unless she made one and unless LE tried to verify that. We don't know either of those things to be true.

J. J. in Phila

08-28-2007, 12:25 AM

UTR, the first queston is if a call can be placed to the DA's office at night. As noted by SJ, it might not be. PEF would probably have known that on 4/15/05.

Second, assuming a call could be placed, we don't know what PEF told LE. She may have called and it wasn't reported, because it was clear that RFG wasn't in the Courthouse (video).

Third, if could have called, and if she did, there would be no record of it.

UndertheRadar

08-28-2007, 12:34 AM

No, JJ, I disagree. The first question is whether PF tried to locate RG at his office, whether by trying to call or by going the short distance over to the office to see if his car was there.

That's what Laws found odd, that there was apparently no attempt made to see whether Gricar was in the office, since he'd been out of the office much of Thursday and all day on Friday.

I still agree with Laws. That would have been a reasonable thing to check. We've heard nowhere that any attempt to locate Gricar at his office was made, just as we've not heard from a single person other than PF's brother that any calls were made to try to locate him anywhere else.

Laws

08-28-2007, 12:44 AM

Any office that I have worked in has either had a night line (private, non-published #) or direct access by knowing extension # & that includes municipal employment.

No office that I have worked in have I ever been unreachable by family, always worked a lot of hours.

Due to the fact that Ray Gricar was at his office Thursday night 4/14, after spending most of the day out of the office, I find it odd that would not have been mentioned as being thought as a place that he could have been reached by PF.

sherrijean981

08-28-2007, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by day2day

IMO -I worked in my County Circuit Clerk's Office and no we didn't have caller id. His home phone I would hope..I am not sure about cell phones (I have NO luck with them)! LOL

Home phones might not have. They might not have had the option of Caller ID on their billing.

In our home, we never had it until I updated my internet with DSL and that was one of the programs we now get, all the fancy phone services that are not all needed or wanted. I do find I like the Caller ID, I then know who is calling or called, what their number is and I don't have to look the number up, just use my menu to make the call.

My Tracfone has the feature of showing who calls if I don't get the call in time it is put in the file until I delete it.

Cloudbuster

08-28-2007, 12:54 AM

Laws I was just thinking the same thing. No calls to the office the number one place you'd think he would be????

If RG didn't have his car keys for some reason on 4-14 after he left the courthouse and lets say he began to walk home--would he have passed the now burnt down Bush House???

sherrijean981

08-28-2007, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Laws I was just thinking the same thing. No calls to the office the number one place you'd think he would be????

If RG didn't have his car keys for some reason on 4-14 after he left the courthouse and lets say he began to walk home--would he have passed the now burnt down Bush House???

Was the Bush House burnt down before RG disappeared?

UndertheRadar

08-28-2007, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Was the Bush House burnt down before RG disappeared?

The Bush House was still standing when RG disappeared. It burned down the following winter.

J. J. in Phila

08-28-2007, 01:12 AM

Bush House burnt down in January 2006.

http://www.alphafire.com/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=86&catid=2

The question with the Courthouse call is, could one be placed in the evening? If so, did PEF call (and it wasn't reported, because RFG wasn't there).

J. J. in Phila

08-28-2007, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

The following taken from KA's Magnificent Manuscript:

(snip)

"The phone system was being changed to one with individual extensions and a voicemail option around the time I was discharged, but in April of 2005, all outside calls to the DA's Office came into one of 2 or 3 general office lines, trunk lines I suppose they are called, where if the main DA number is busy the second incoming call flips over to the next line. At the time, there was no voice mail, though an answering machine was provided for calls which came in when the office was not open. During normal business hours, calls were answered by the receptionist, who asked for the name of the person who was calling, and the person the call was for was then buzzed at their desk or in their office to take the call. If they did not respond, indicated they were busy, or had their ‘do not disturb’ block on, the receptionist took a written message."

(snip)

Like so much of the rest of JKA's pages, it doesn't tell us if there could be incoming call after office hours.

If the process is the same, it would not ring in RFG's office and may not ring in the DA's office at all.

UndertheRadar

08-28-2007, 06:52 PM

What KA's description does tell us is that there was an answering machine but no voice mail.

So, two things:

a) media descriptions of PF's calls to RG have all indicated that her calls went to voice mail.

b) even if PF called the office, the answering machine would have picked up.
Even if she left no message, there would have been an indication that a call came in, had LE tried to verify such a call (which is unlikely, since no assertion that she ever made such a call has ever been made public, and even if made in private, it's unlikely they attempted to verify it).

J. J. in Phila

08-28-2007, 08:29 PM

The voice mail was in regard to the cell phone, not the office phone.

If there was a call to the office, it would be unlikely that RFG (or anyone) would check an answering machine on the night of 4/15/05. That could have been the reason a call wasn't made.

UndertheRadar

08-28-2007, 09:10 PM

That the voice mail referred to the cell phone, not the office phone was EXACTLY my point.

We have no reports that PF called RG at the office to see whether he was there.

GS is right. PF certainly would have known there was an answering machine at the courthouse, and a simple "RG phone home" would have made sense left as a message on that machine.

We have no reports of any such message or of any such call.

J. J. in Phila

08-28-2007, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

RG was known to work evenings/nights.
PF would have known this.
When worried about him on 04/15, why not call the office to see if, by chance, he or someone else picked up the phone.
Knowing about the answering machine, a simple "RG, call home" would have made sense at the first hint of worry, just in case he stopped at office.

Well, that assumes a number of things about the office phone not in evidence.

Where does the phone ring. It almost certainly will not be in RFG's office. If it isn't put through to the DA's office, it really doesn't make any difference if PEF called or not.

The second problem is, we don't know if PEF called the Courthouse number, assuming that it could ring in the DA's office. There would not be a record and it is exceptionally foolish to expect that a message would be left.

Third, we know that RFG sometimes worked late, but we also know that he took the entire day off, which kind of makes the idea of working late a stretch.

We also don't know if, when working late, RFG could make outgoing calls or was in the habit of taking his cell phone into the office. We also can look at the time before, 4/14/05, and see that by 11:30 PM, RFG had returned.

J. J. in Phila

08-28-2007, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

If it's not in evidence, it should be.

If she called from a cell phone, there is a record of where the call bounced off from by checking her carrier.

If she called from home phone, phone companies have records. All outgoing calls to local numbers are available through Message Unit Detail.
All incoming and outgoing calls, with or without caller ID, are recorded through Automatic Detail Accounting.

Cell phone records, yes, but local calls apparently do not produce a record. There is even a problem figuring out what long distance calls came into the Courthouse. I believe that it was EN that reported it.

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

First, it appears to me that if one called the DA's Office on the telephone number listed for the DA's Office, the phone would ring in the DA's office. (This appears to be confirmed by KA.) During regular office hours, a receptionist answered the phone; after hours, there was an answering machine for the caller to leave a message if desired.

She noted the "trunk line." That usually comes through the main number. The incoming calls may be recorded at the main number, a central recording for all offices. In that case, the recording device would be no where near the DA's office.

Second, no we don't know if PF called the DA's Office on 04/15/05; one would think that might be the first place called, since RG was known to work evenings/nights. If RG or anyone else were in the DA's office, one would think he/she might have answered the phone. If no one answered, one would think a message might have been left---"RG, I need you to call me, "RG, get home now" or something to that effect, in case he did come in. When you're worried, you don't care what anyone else thinks!!!

It's not what "anyone else thinks," even with three exclamation points. It is if RFG will be there to pick up. It is very unlikely that RFG would come into the office at sometime after the call and then get the message. He might turn on his cell.

Even assuming that the machine was in the office, would RFG have checked it. It wouldn't be urgent, because LE, and the staff, have his cell number (and possibly his home number).

Third, we know that RG did not work on 04/14, yet he spent approx. 3 hrs. in the office during the evening of 04/14. One would think he might have done the same on 04/15.

Two things. First, it is probable that he told PEF he'd be going back to the office. Second, according to JKA and her door slams, he was in the office in the afternoon. He didn't say, "I won't be in toady," on 4/14/05; he did on 4/15/05. Also the next work day was not 4/16/05, but 4/18/05. He really didn't have to "catch up" on anything in a hurry. There was nothing going on the next day at the office.

Fourth, there would be no way RG or anyone else could not have made a call from the DA's office after hours. Also, the worry started a long time prior to 11:30.

Do they have to go through a switch board; was the switchboard open?

What's not in evidence is whether PF tried to call the office.

We don't have evidence that she could have gotten through to anyone in the office, if she called. If she could get through, if would be foolish to expect her to leave a message if no one picked up.

sherrijean981

08-29-2007, 12:26 AM

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Incorrect, JJ. Local calls do produce a record, and those records are obtainable.....been there, done that. Know it to be fact.

edited to add, local calls made from home phone other than cell phone.

Incorrect LW. AMA is an optional service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Message_Accounting

In general, not, there are problems with getting data from local land line calls.

Not all local calls generate a call detail record, Nirenberg says. But that's not to say that phone companies can't create a record for local calls.

"It's just a matter of whether they enable that function" that allows that to happen, he says. Cellphone calls, on the other hand, create call detail records in almost every case.

Toll calls — meaning those that aren't technically long-distance but still cost extra — also generate call detail records, he says. "If they charge you separately for it, they have a call detail record," Nirenberg says.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-22-nsa-template_x.htm

The data isn't there unless one of parties wanted to generate the data or if the line was being monitored.

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 12:46 AM

GS, please cite the passage in the "paramour Pages," where JKA says.

1. Where the answering machine is?

2. If the phone will ring in the DA's office after hours?

She didn't say a darn thing about if a connection can made into the office after office hours (and she wasn't asked either).

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by gstickley
The following taken from KA's Magnificent Manuscript:

(snip)

in April of 2005, all outside calls to the DA's Office came into one of 2 or 3 general office lines, trunk lines I suppose they are called, where if the main DA number is busy the second incoming call flips over to the next line. At the time, there was no voice mail, though an answering machine was provided for calls which came in when the office was not open. During normal business hours, calls were answered by the receptionist, who asked for the name of the person who was calling, and the person the call was for was then buzzed at their desk or in their office to take the call.

(snip)

Thanks for reminding us that there was NOT a switchboard, GS. (Those pretty much went out with "The Waltons," didn't they?)

I agree with you. The question isn't whether RG was there to pick up the phone. The question isn't whether RG would have checked the answering machine if were in the office.

The question is why PF didn't check the office.

I don't think his not working at all on Friday affects whether he would go in to the office that night, nor do I think not having anything to prepare for the next morning would affect that decision.

After all, he worked until 9 p.m. on Thursday night, and he wasn't preparing anything for Friday, was he?

sherrijean981

08-29-2007, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

Thanks for reminding us that there was NOT a switchboard, GS. (Those pretty much went out with "The Waltons," didn't they?)

I agree with you. The question isn't whether RG was there to pick up the phone. The question isn't whether RG would have checked the answering machine if were in the office.

The question is why PF didn't check the office.

I don't think his not working at all on Friday affects whether he would go in to the office that night, nor do I think not having anything to prepare for the next morning would affect that decision.

After all, he worked until 9 p.m. on Thursday night, and he wasn't preparing anything for Friday, was he?

Do we know PF didn't drive to the court house and look to see if he was there?

RG was having a hearing on Monday so he might have been working on that on Thursday night or Friday if in the office, but no proof he was.

Is the office considered closed when all employees leave at 4 or 5 and the phone is on answering machine and the court house doors are locked to the public? If a DA or other ADA's are working late it isn't to answer telephones. It is to catch up on work which they can do because the office is closed.

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

Do we know PF didn't drive to the court house and look to see if he was there?

RG was having a hearing on Monday so he might have been working on that on Thursday night or Friday if in the office, but no proof he was.

Is the office considered closed when all employees leave at 4 or 5 and the phone is on answering machine and the court house doors are locked to the public? If a DA or other ADA's are working late it isn't to answer telephones. It is to catch up on work which they can do because the office is closed.

We've never heard anything about PF going by the courthouse to see if RG was there or about her calling to see if he was there. We've heard about her calling RG's cell phone "dozens" of times and leaving "dozens" of messages, and we've heard about her calling her brother.

He couldn't have been working on anything in the office on Friday, since he never went in to the office on Friday.

Again, the question isn't whether anyone, RG or otherwise, would answer a call made to the courthouse on Friday night.

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 01:27 AM

UTR, I am familiar with Courthouse in Westmoreland County. That county is at least twice as big as Centre, in terms of population. The last time I called them, in the early 1990's, all calls were routed through a central switchboard.

When someone refers to trunk lines, as both JKA and EN did, these are generally accessed by one number, and the call in routed internally after passing through an exchange, the switchboard.

The Courthouse wasn't opened on Saturday, so there was no need to get ready for the next day.

We also don't know exactly what numbers PEF called and we don't know that, after hours, she could have gotten a phone to ring in the DA's office.

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

Incorrect, JJ.
If I want a record of all incoming and outgoing local calls at my home phone number, it is available. I know it for a fact.

You can sign up for the service and the phone company will provide the records, but company does not normally create records.

Read again the following, from a systems engineer whose company contracts with the NSA:

Not all local calls generate a call detail record, Nirenberg says. But that's not to say that phone companies can't create a record for local calls.

Now, I believe him more than I believe you.

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 01:40 AM

JJ, let's keep this simple.

We know from KA's manuscript that there was an answering machine at the courthouse.

Therefore, we know that any call made after hours would be picked up by the answering machine if no one was there to answer it.

PF's calls to RG's cell were going straight to voice mail. If she had wanted to see whether he was at the courthouse,

a) she could have dialed the number for the courthouse and

1) if RG was there and heard it, he would pick up or
2) if RG was there and didn't hear it, she could leave a message which he might see while he was there or
3) if RG wasn't there, she could leave a message which would do as much good as the messages she was leaving on his cell phone or

b) she could have driven over to the courthouse to check and see if he was there.

It's that simple. No need for a lengthy discussion of switch boards and message units and blah blah blah blah blah.

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 01:43 AM

But that's not to say that phone companies can't create a record for local calls.

This means even for people who haven't opted for the service.

This means for LE.

This means for customers who need it for some specific reason.

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 02:01 AM

UTR, you have no idea, nor has JKA told us, if a call placed after hours will go to the DA's office. PEF probably would know.

I'll try explaining this S-L-O-W-L-Y. If a call to the Courthouse after hours does not go to the DA's office, it would be foolish to call the Courthouse after hours and expect to reach the DA's office, It is that simple.

What part of "Not all local calls generate a call detail record, Nirenberg says," are you having a problem understanding?

Note also:

"It's just a matter of whether they enable that function" that allows that to happen, he says.

If the function is not enabled, there is no record.

Now, it would be great, for our purposes, if RFG had his phone tapped and there was a record. So far as we know, he didn't. Most people not suspected of being involved in a crime do not have their phones tapped; as far as we know, RFG was not one of those people with his phone being tapped, or a record of his local calls being kept on 4/15/05.

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 02:22 AM

It doesn't matter whether the phone would ring IN the D.A.'s office, given the circumstances. It's making the attempt that matters, and an S.O. who is worrying (in whatever state of worry or at whatever level of worry) would consider making the attempt worthwhile. Certainly more worthwhile than continuing to call a cell phone that was going to voice mail.

When your S.O. is missing, you don't sit there and think of all the reasons he might NOT be some place or that he might NOT be able to hear the phone or might NOT be able to pick it up. You make the attempt to see if you can locate him in logical places, and the office would have been a logical place given RG's habit of going there at night.Plain and simple.

As for the rest of your post, what part of But that's not to say that phone companies can't create a record for local calls from your own source do you not understand?

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 03:02 AM

Of course it matters, UTR. Only an exceptionally stupid person would call a phone that could not be heard and leave a message that wouldn't be retrieved for 60 hours! :rolleyes:

Now, we don't know if the phone would ring in the DA's office or not after hours.

Why do you think PEF kept calling the cell phone? On the hope that RFG would have turned it on after she placed the last call.

Yes, they can "create" the records after "... they enable that function." If there are no record of the calls being kept, they cannot go back and "create" those records. :rolleyes:

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by logicworks

With the knowledge RG often went in to work after hours, coupled with the knowledge he often left his cell phone in the car, there should have been many calls to the office as well as to the cell phone and drive by to see if he was there.

Prior to disappearance, it would appear to have been where he would most likely be found if he wasn't home in the evening. Yet we have never heard mention of such calls having been made, only the mention of the dozens of messages left on a cell phone that she, by her own admission, knew he didn't always take in with him.
JMO

I agree, Logic.

And the suggestion above that it is "stupid" to call the courthouse while implying that it is "smart" to continue calling the cell phone because RG might turn it on makes no sense. If RG turned the cell phone on again, there would already be "dozens" of messages there presumably asking him to call home, hence no reason for yet another attempt to reach him via that method. There is nothing "stupid" about the hope that he might be within earshot of the ringing phone in the courthouse since any number of reasons might have taken him out of his own office area.

I also have no idea why JJ thinks a "function" has to be enabled for the phone company or LE to have access to local call records.

LUD (Local Usage Details) is a detailed record of local calls made and
received from a particular phone number. These records are regularly
available to police with a court order, and are subject to the same
restrictions as tapping.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=714930

From what I understand, Verizon keeps these records for 45 days and can even reconstruct them after that time period. The "enabling function" concept applies only to whether a customer wants the detailed explanation or not.

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 06:38 PM

Here is what the same Q and A source says.

Q. "How can I obtain local calls made on my telephone? My local provider
says that they do not have this information?"

A. " Request for Question Clarification by missy-ga on 04 Dec 2002 13:18 PST

Hello bullet99!

Who is your local service provider? I've been grilling mine about
obtaining LUDs (Local Usage Details), but they claim this is
impossible unless you subscribe to Detailed Billing for monitoring
from here on out.

If this is the sort of service you want, telling me who your provider
is will let me check into the availability."

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=119231

The one case I've seen is where there is billing for local calls (they offer that plan in Phila, though I have unlimited local calls). If the phone doesn't bill, they don't generate the records (unless the phone is being monitored).

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 07:22 PM

JJ, "missy-ga" is getting the run around from some clerk at one phone company.

And, "missy-ga" is NOT LE or an attorney or the government, who could get those records. What do you think all the NSA stuff was about back in 2006?

I know it to be a fact that the phone company keeps these records whether or not a person subscribes to detailed billing.

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
Didn't we go through this a couple months ago when it was
"decreed" that TracPhones weren't available at the time RG disappeared, you couldn't buy them at convenience stores, and other such nonsense????? :santa:

Precisely the same kind of thing, GS. With any luck, the Forum Oracle will give up on this topic and go over to the other thread to spend time offering Oracle Pronouncements on federal connections in the Luna and Gricar cases to S1. :lol:

Serendipitous1

08-29-2007, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

Precisely the same kind of thing, GS. With any luck, the Forum Oracle will give up on this topic and go over to the other thread to spend time offering Oracle Pronouncements on federal connections in the Luna and Gricar cases to S1. :lol: Thanks!! I love you too!

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Thanks!! I love you too!

For a slice of pizza, we could have sent him somewhere else . . .

Cinderella

08-29-2007, 11:06 PM

You are going to get rid of me after tonight for a while. You need to keep J. J. One thing about J. J., he keeps the board moving.
I don't know if that is good or bad. :santa:

sherrijean981

08-29-2007, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by Cinderella
You are going to get rid of me after tonight for a while. You need to keep J. J. One thing about J. J., he keeps the board moving.
I don't know if that is good or bad. :santa:

Good Luck Cindi! I will say prayers for you and please keep positive! You will heal much faster thinking that way.
Love you.
:rose:

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 11:42 PM

UtR, it is exactly the same message board that you quoted.

We do have a actual news story, quoting a systems engineer (actually the director of the department), Nirenberg, of a company that contracts with the government, that s says "Not all local calls generate a call detail record." Emphasis added.

Now, who do I think is more likely to be correct, Nirenberg or you? Nirenberg.

Does this correspond to what the reporting in case has been. It seems to:

Police cannot obtain a list of incoming calls specifically to Ray Gricar's office because of the trunked line and the switchboard. They have obtained a list of outgoing long-distance calls from his office in the days before his disappearance, but nothig out of the ordinary was found. Police were able to obtain and review incoming and outgoing calls on his county-issued cell phone, but again found nothing of interest. They also looked at the outgoing long-distance calls made from his home phone and, yet again, found nothing of interest.
Erin Nissley 10/13/05

Note again the reference to the switchboard, that UTR didn't seem to think existed.:santa:

Cinderella

08-29-2007, 11:44 PM

J. J., You are really getting a sense of humor. :punch:

J. J. in Phila

08-29-2007, 11:50 PM

UndertheRadar

08-29-2007, 11:56 PM

JJ, the google answers source I quoted was an answer from someone with a career in law enforcement and the credibility to give a knowledgeable answer, one that backed up what I know to be a fact. (As I said before, what do you think all the stuff about the NSA was about?)

The google answers source YOU quoted was a question from "missy-ga" who simply reported what some clerk at her local phone company told her.

How much further do you want to take this? Doesn't GS's reminder of your constant claims about no TracFones being available when RG disappeared even though their own website said they had some millions of subscribers at the time at least TEMPT you to stop this foolishness on your part?

And no, there's no switchboard that needs to have someone working after hours, a la the Waltons.

There's an answering machine, which was my whole point. Any call made after hours would have been picked up.

Cinderella

08-29-2007, 11:58 PM

Thanks everyone and keep up the good fight. Who knows who I will meet. If it is anyone interesting, I will ask questions. I will be thinking of everybody. :)

J. J. in Phila

08-30-2007, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

I see mention of the long distance calls on the home phone, but no mention of the local calls, incoming and outgoing, on the home phone.
Why not? It wouldn't involve a trunked line or a switchboard. Did LE request a copy?

In case you have not been reading, because those records don't exist. I'd love to see what local calls were made, if there was an incoming (or outgoing) local call to RFG home phone on the morning of 4/15/05; don't you think LE would, if there was a record? Don't you think that PEF would? Don't you think that TG would, too? :rolleyes:

J. J. in Phila

08-30-2007, 12:38 AM

UTR, the only thing that we know is that the person claimed a lifetime in LE. He might be being sarcastic or he might not be telling the truth. Some people are not honest over the Internet, using numerous false identities, for example. :rolleyes:

We have the statement from Nirenberg, we know what he does, and he notes that not all local calls generate data. We also know that this data could be useful to LE, but they don't seem to be able to get it.

BTW, the answer you cite goes on to explain how Law and Orde "Jumped the shark."

UndertheRadar

08-30-2007, 12:43 AM

I'm sure Logic HAS been reading and understands that such records are kept by the phone company. In fact, I believe she herself has had specific, personal experience which has proven to her that such records CAN be obtained.

UndertheRadar

08-30-2007, 12:52 AM

JJ, you do understand all the uproar re the NSA, don't you?

J. J. in Phila

08-30-2007, 01:02 AM

Yes, I do. You apparently don't understand what Nirenberg is saying, however. They can look at data that exists, but the cannot look at non-existent data. Not all local calls generate data.

And yes, if the phone company bills for those local calls or enables a service to record that data, it will exist. It apparently doesn't exist in all cases, which is probably why LE didn't look at it.

Wow, UTR, in two days you expect PEF to make a call that cannot be places and LE to look at data that doesn't exist. Talk about grasping at straws! :rolleyes:

UndertheRadar

08-30-2007, 01:53 AM

JJ, what you seem not to be understanding from Nirenberg is that there are two points from which local call detail records can be initiated, the subscriber and the phone companies themselves.

And as CNET News explains, those call record details were turned over en masse, including records for local calls, during the whole NSA thing:

Q: What new information came out this week?
USA Today published an article on Thursday that said AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth turned over records of millions of phone calls to the National Security Agency. These are not international calls--they're apparently records of all calls that those companies' customers made.

Two things are worth noting. First, based on the newspaper's description, contents of phone calls were not divulged. Second, customers' names, street addresses and other personal information were not handed over.

Q: When you say records of phone calls were turned over, what does that mean?

That's a reference to "call detail records," or CDRs, which are database entries that record the parties to the conversation, the duration of the call and so on. This appears to include local phone calls and not just long-distance calls.

CDRs are stored in massive telephone company databases. Cisco Systems' Unified CallManager lets customers use SQL queries to dig up information about each call. Those internal databases have either been opened up to outside queries from the NSA or (more likely) duplicated and handed over to the NSA on a regular basis.

http://news.com.com/FAQ+NSAs+data+mining+explained/2100-1028_3-6071780.html

J. J. in Phila

08-30-2007, 09:56 AM

UTR, first note the word "appears."

Second, that doesn't tell us anything about what, if any, records exist prior to the request.

Now, LE could (and may have), gotten a court order to get the LUD's after a certain point, but if the phone company does not maintain a record of them normally, there is no prior record to get.

The only case I've seen where they were able to release them after the fact is where the customer was billed for local calls (which is an option in my community).

UndertheRadar

08-30-2007, 11:55 AM

JJ, this isn't the place for it, so I'll just suggest you read up on ETCS, ALPHA, and DUF files. Phone companies keep records of local phone calls for a certain period of time, varying with the company, whether or not the customer requests that it be done.

To avoid this dragging out any further, I'll simply ask you to point to any report, media or otherwise, which either suggests or verifies that PF called the courthouse Friday night looking for RG.

If not, what's your point?

J. J. in Phila

08-30-2007, 02:37 PM

UTR, I have posted EN's report that calls do not go through directly to the DA's office. That seems to be confirmed by JKA.

Now, if this is the case, what possibly would the Purpose of PEF making a call to the Courthouse that could not be answered in the DA's office?

I have read the account on how LUD's work and it seems that not all local calls generate details. It comes down to who do I beileve, Nirenberg, a systems engineer that works with the NSA and deals with calling records or you. I believe Nirenberg.

UndertheRadar

08-30-2007, 03:12 PM

Make up your mind, JJ. You want to waste space arguing that records could not be checked to see if PF made a call to the courthouse, and then you want to turn around and argue that there was no point in her calling the courthouse anyway. Pretty counter-productive.

What would be the purpose of PF making a call to the Courthouse that could not be answered in the DA's office? The same purpose as leaving dozens of messages on a cell phone that was going straight to voice mail.

In both cases, obviously the hope that the caller MIGHT connect with the person being called. If RG was at the courthouse, who is to say he would have spent every single second in his office, and not out of it for any number of reasons--to make a copy of something, to get a drink, to go to the rest room, to get a book or a file from somewhere else, etc.

And, as I suspected, you can't point to any source, media or otherwise, that suggests or verifies that PF attempted to make such a call.

Meanwhile, though, I will still suggest you need to do further research on what those who have actually worked for the phone companies say about call detail records for local phone calls. There was a lot of smoke being blown during the investigation into the NSA practices, and Nirenberg was helping to blow it, right along with Verizon.

Serendipitous1

08-30-2007, 07:12 PM

My opinion: Add this to the nonsensical arguments which have put many a poster (and lurker) off. I sensed that there was recently a "window of opportunity". But a certain poster shut it down...again. That poster is not here...for the moment. I really wish I had more information to work with.

sherrijean981

08-30-2007, 11:36 PM

I know this is not on the subject but found it in our local paper and thought it would be of interest to others.

Pennsylvania News
Harrisburg, PA
Aug. 30, 2007

url]http://www.lewistownsentinel.com/oniWire/oniWireDetails.asp?articleID=27322&state=PA&category=News[/url]

Pa. considers sentencing changes in effort to turn around inmates
HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) - Thousands of nonviolent offenders a year could earn early release from prison or qualify for alternative programs that would spare them from hard time under changes in sentencing that Gov. Ed Rendell is advocating.

The changes, backed by key legislators, district attorneys and county commissioners, also would divert to the state prison system hundreds of convicts who under current law serve their sentences in county prisons.

The goal is to reduce the number of convicts who return to crime after they are released from prison, ease financial pressures on county governments and rein in inmate overcrowding that is driving a prison construction boom in Pennsylvania.

‘‘We are trying to get these less serious offenders into programs that we know will make a difference,’’ state Corrections Secretary Jeffrey A. Beard said.

Nearly 46,000 convicts are held in Pennsylvania’s 27 state prisons and dozens of state-run community corrections centers, and the number grows by nearly 200 every month, Beard said. County prisons house more than 30,000 additional inmates. "
Quote

There is more to the story.

J. J. in Phila

08-30-2007, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

Read above, please. KA did not confirm your previous post.

GS, what JKA "seems" to have confirmed is that there is a trunk line and the answering machine. What EN confirmed was that there was a switchboard that the trunk line came into. Unless the call could have been transferred by the switchboard, it would not have rung in the DA's office.

Any messages from that trunk line, if not transfered specifically to the DA's office, may have gone to a answering machine for the Courthouse, but not specifically for the DA's office. In other works a message for the DA might be nestled between a call to the prothonotary and one to the register of wills. All these calls would be delivered Monday morning.

If that is the setup, there would be little use for PEF to call the DA's office, knowing that even if he is there, the call won't go to that office.

Ah, that might be why she called the cell phone, hoping that if he was there, he'd turn it on or check the voice mail.

J. J. in Phila

08-31-2007, 12:25 AM

UTR, you are confusing two separate questions.

First, could PEF have placed a call into the DA's office on the evening of 4/15/05, so that anyone there could hear it and pick up the phone. If the answer is no, then it becomes Utterly Totally Ridiculous to ask why she didn't call the Courthouse.

There is a second, and more important, question. Can LE determine what incoming and outgoing local calls were made to RFG's home phone. It could be exceptionally important for LE to know if RFG took a call, or made one, at, hypothetically, at 8:45 AM, or 9:15 AM. Where that call came from, how long it was, possibly who was on the other end of the line, all would be significant.

I'd like to know the answer, and I'd guess that LE would as well. The press reports indicate that LE didn't look at local calls, though I think ultimately, both LE and all of us, would like to know the answer.

My guess, based on what Nirenberg said, and that there has been no reporting of local calls, that there was no generation of data from the call.

UndertheRadar

08-31-2007, 12:38 AM

Logic, excellent questions.

JJ, I'm not the one who is confused.

J. J. in Phila

08-31-2007, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
[B]

IIRC, you mentioned her going home and changing to go to the gym.
Since she had just left the office, no need to go by then to see if he was there, but surely leaving the gym, IF it was the Y, only two buildings from the Courthouse, did she check before going home?

I mentioned that she probably changed into workout clothing. I'm not sure where, but I think it's a bit unlikely that showed up for work in her workout clothing.

You have to remember that when PEF went to the gym, she assumed that RFG would be back.

After getting home, darkness setting in, seems like that would be about 3 hours later. If she knew she couldn't reach him on the Courthouse phone, did she go past the Courthouse to see if he might be there? Seems like the logical thing to do with a man who worked late many nights. Since she said he left his cell phone in the car at times, what's to say that wasn't one of the times? I would have gone by to ease my own mind if I were really worried; worried enough to call my brother and say 'should I be worried?' Did her brother advise her to drive by the Courthouse to see if RG might be there working?
JMO

It's possible, but not overly relevant. She could gone to check to see in the Mini was parked in the lot, but since it wasn't, and it doesn't add anything to her time line, it doesn't make a huge difference. By the time the press is reporting on her whereabouts on 4/15, the car has been found, it just becomes a false lead.

Likewise, she could have been at home, waiting for RFG to turn his phone on.

Considering he'd taken the full day off and that 4/16/95 was not a workday, I wouldn't have thought about the Courthouse.

UndertheRadar

08-31-2007, 12:58 AM

Why are you concerned about her "timeline" when people are asking about whether she checked on RG in the office because Laws originally noted that it seemed "odd" that this checking wasn't done--in other words, because it seemed as if the typical S.O. in that situation would have checked there under those circumstances?

Taking Thursday off and not working Friday didn't affect RG's decision to spend Thursday evening in the office.

J. J. in Phila

08-31-2007, 07:55 AM

The principle interest on PEF's Friday night timeline is if she could have gotten to Lewisburg and back. It will take slightly more than one hour to get there and slightly more than one hour to get back. Basically, unless there is a two hour gap in her timeline, PEF did not go to Lewisburg.

Now, if PEF went to the Courthouse parking lot to see if the Mini was there, it adds nothing to her timeline. It is the gap that is important and unless there is a 2 hour plus gap, she didn't go to Lewisburg after work on 4/15/05.

One thing that I initially considered was that PEF might have left work and driven to Lewisburg, in her car, after work. For her to have done it, there would have to be a two hour plus gap in here timeline. There does not appear to be, even from the limited information we have.

Serendipitous1

09-04-2007, 04:31 PM

Snips from tonyGricar's posts on the weekend thread
I'm in the PSU area for an extended stay...

As far as if I believe that he was there on Friday and Saturday? Based on the totality of concrete and circumstantial evidence (I tend to put Lewisburg witness accounts with the latter) I'd say he was there on Friday, with a lessened possibility of Saturday.

Why wouldn't he call, if that were the case? Clearly something was very wrong, whether it be suicide, foul-play, or walkaway.

- If it was a walkaway scenario, which I believe to have a 1% or less chance, I can't imagine that he would have ever placed the call on Friday, especially indicating a road, and a corroboration of a cell tower. I wouldn't comprehend Ray making that error, if otherwise the perfect Houdini.

- If suicide, I 100% understand why he wouldn't call. If foul-play, and he voluntarily was there over night, that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. If suicide, I'd say that the Saturday "sightings" were likely incorrect and that he was not alive at that point.

- If foul-play, and was a crime of opportunity, I'd still say he was not alive on Saturday. A Saturday scenario doesn't really lend itself to a spur of the moment, opportunistic situation.

- If it's some proverbial "whole 'nother can of worms", nothing has surfaced in terms of evidence to support it, any witness accounts (in terms of knowledge of anything that may have happened, or names coming to the forefront). No gossip, no innuendo that I'm aware of that hasn't been quashed. I hope your "extended stay" means you are rekindling some fires around the county...nothing in the CDT yet.

You certainly are aware of every angle posted here and elsewhere...and so much more. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you believe RG made the trip to Lewisburg on Friday...and that implies that you accept everything which has come from PF, at face value. You are satisfied that every known, recent (real or potential) threat has been investigated...and excluded. You know of no reason why RG would have arranged to meet anyone in Lewisburg. You have all but excluded a walkaway scenario. And you have some real problems with a suicide scenario.

Serendipitous1

09-04-2007, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by gstickley on another thread
Verrry interesting, S1. Shades of "The Godfather". Doncha just luv the "family"? My opinion: The thing which fascinates me is that the PSP conducted the background checks on all members and employees of the gaming board. But it was the board's BIE which then conducted the checks on the gaming applicants. If I had to put up $50 million to get a crack at the slots action, and was politically well connected but with a somewhat checkered past, I would want to get as many "ducks" lined up as possible...on the board, and as the board filled key positions early in 2005. And if there was someone with information that might jeopardize one of my "ducks", that would be something I would have to deal with. Just a thought...hoping the Dauphin County DA reads these boards.

Serendipitous1

09-04-2007, 05:18 PM

http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/story/196818.html

I wonder if RG's name appears anywhere in the gaming board's "secret" pile.

J. J. in Phila

09-04-2007, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
My opinion: The thing which fascinates me is that the PSP conducted the background checks on all members and employees of the gaming board. But it was the board's BIE which then conducted the checks on the gaming applicants. If I had to put up $50 million to get a crack at the slots action, and was politically well connected but with a somewhat checkered past, I would want to get as many "ducks" lined up as possible...on the board, and as the board filled key positions early in 2005. And if there was someone with information that might jeopardize one of my "ducks", that would be something I would have to deal with. Just a thought...hoping the Dauphin County DA reads these boards.

A lot of the board positions were re-appointments of those appointed in 2004. Of the current members, the only "Centre County connection" is that one member was on the PSU Board of Trustees, probably one of the members appointed by the agricultural associations. He's from Columbia County though.

http://www.pgcb.state.pa.us/members.htm

Now you know why I read bios. :)

tonyGricar

09-04-2007, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
You certainly are aware of every angle posted here and elsewhere...and so much more. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you believe RG made the trip to Lewisburg on Friday...and that implies that you accept everything which has come from PF, at face value. You are satisfied that every known, recent (real or potential) threat has been investigated...and excluded. You know of no reason why RG would have arranged to meet anyone in Lewisburg. You have all but excluded a walkaway scenario. And you have some real problems with a suicide scenario. Well, with JoePa off to a good start, and the evil empire of Notre Dame coming to town Saturday, it's a bit hard to wrangle a column inch or two from the CDT. :D

Based on everything, as presented (aye, there's the rub...), I believe he was there. Under what circumstances, under what duress, etc, are the $64,000 questions.

Now, am I satisfied that every recent threat was investigated? Yes, but as I've said many times, if foul-play, I'm less inclined to think that it was from a known threat. I've always thought a slow-burn scenario was very possible, especially if this were a crime of opportunity. But then... how does the laptop come into play in such a scenario. In my eyes, that's the mitigating factor to an opportunistic crime.

I have no idea why he would arrange a meeting with anyone in Lewisburg, and if it were case related, at some point you would think some corroboration would have surfaced to support such a scenario.

As for taking "everything which has come from PF at face value", you need to remember that I have a deeper view than simply face value. The general public has only the face value to work with. I would think in my situation, it would be quite easy, and a total cop-out, to be screaming for her head on a pike, but clearly I feel the information dictates otherwise.

tonyGricar

09-04-2007, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Politigal
Tony - I have a question and forgive me if it is unsettling for you --

but when your father went out to buy mulch, did he tell someone in person he was going to do that, or did he phone?

I'm just trying to look at all the similarities of the cases.

thx It's unsettling that you are relying upon innaccurate, and oft corrected, reporting. I've repeated the following on more than one occassion. A lazy journalist reported that Roy went to buy mulch and subsequently disappeared. Had that "journalist" done their job correctly by simply paying the 3 bucks to read the full article from the Dayton Daily News, and not the excerpt which ended with the word "mulch", they would have known that he was going to buy mulch AND THEN go pick up my youngest brother from his friend's house. It took my 8 yr old brother's call to his Mom asking why Dad hasn't picked him up yet to raise the red flag. So, within the space of minutes, something drastically went wrong.

So... Yes, he left the house telling my step-mother that he was going to pick up mulch at a local gas station and then retrieve my brother.

I reviewed, along with LE, the station's security tapes. He never made it there. All of these events should have taken no longer than a half-hour. Two or three days later they found his car 30some miles away. Days after that, his body.

tonyGricar

09-04-2007, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

My point wasn't about where he was supposed to go -- to get mulch, or to pick up your brother ---

my question dealt with whether he told someone in person he was going or phoned. And I corrected your statement that implied he just went out to buy mulch. I would assume there would be some agreeance that picking up his son changes the dynamic of just going to buy mulch. Going to buy mulch or going to Lewisburg does not have any perceived personal connection, which is the key differentiator. Picking up my brother is polar opposite of Ray's apparent wandering drive.

You were looking for similarities, but you were using incorrect data. Your posted information creates an opening for correlating the events. The corrected information creates a dissimilar scenario.

tonyGricar

09-04-2007, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Politigal

I was only curious if there was a *phone call.*

geeez You were looking for similarities.

I'd say my correction completely has relevance to setting the context of the notification (phone or otherwise). If I didn't, you only give the next cyclical generation of posters incomplete information to work with and I then will have to make a future correction, such as I had to do with you who apparently was not here for the prior corrections.

If I would have simply replied "Yep, he called/told someone.", how does that give any real context? If I responded as such, you can easily, and wrongly, say "AHA! He too made a phone call referring to some mundane, impersonal act.". Had he told my step-mother that he was just going to buy mulch, and my brother was not in the equation, I'd compare it to Ray's call to Patty.

Laws

09-05-2007, 12:48 AM

Hi Politigal,
did CTV get rid of all the previous threads, didn't they used to archive threads?

tonyGricar

09-05-2007, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
What are the odds that a crime of opportunity would be committed by someone with a "slow burn," on a day where he decided not to go into work? Do you think they just got really really lucky? Your sarcasm aside, did you actually read the post that you are questioning?

Off Day + random encounter w/ bad guy + Ray = Crime of Opportunity

Off Day + random encounter w/ bad guy + Ray + Little Used Laptop = Not So Likely a Simple Crime of Opportunity aka "Mitigating factor to an opportunistic crime"

What you are specifically saying above though, is what I think most would call a text-book crime of opportunity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a crime of opportunity lend itself to the term "aligning of the planets", aka a situation where certain factors contribute to an outcome?

The caveat to a crime of opp that I posted on that specific scenario, however, goes a bit deeper than what you posted above and that's how the laptop relates to, or could be part of, a crime of opp? That's the larger issue, to me and other interested parties, that seems to mitigate the chance opportunity.

Maybe you and I are back to an issue of semantics?

tonyGricar

09-05-2007, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Laws
Hi Politigal,
did CTV get rid of all the previous threads, didn't they used to archive threads? Laws, if you haven't noticed the feature, or newbies for that matter, on the bottom of the main Gricar forum, there is an option to show threads "from the beginning". As a default, the show threads is set to "30 days".

But yes, due to various bannings (or when people inexplicably ask that their own 250+ posts be deleted to erase various *finger quotes* irrational quirks), there is a fair chunk of content that's been deleted.

Laws

09-05-2007, 01:09 AM

Does anybody know whent the desktop computer was brought into the residence? I believe I asked this ? long ago but don't believe I ever saw an answer.

Laws

09-05-2007, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Laws, if you haven't noticed the feature, or newbies for that matter, on the bottom of the main Gricar forum, there is an option to show threads "from the beginning". As a default, the show threads is set to "30 days".

But yes, due to various bannings (or when people inexplicably ask that their own 250+ posts be deleted to erase various *finger quotes* irrational quirks), there is a fair chunk of content that's been deleted.

Thank you, I used to have quite a bit saved but then my computer crashed & had to replace the hard drive & they weren't able to retrieve for me due to time restraints & condition of the bad drive.

I have never used the search option here at CTV, used to just read the threads & copy what was useful to my memory.

UndertheRadar

09-05-2007, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Laws
Does anybody know whent the desktop computer was brought into the residence? I believe I asked this ? long ago but don't believe I ever saw an answer.

Laws, my understanding is that the desktop was purchased late 2004 or early 2005. I'll see it I can dig up a reference.

Laws

09-05-2007, 01:19 AM

Thanks UTR, in my mind the assumption was early 2005 but don't remember where that came from & due to the belief that Ray Gricar didn't use his laptop often I had assumed that it was used at the residence for internet surfing of a personal nature prior to the desktop being brought into the residence.

tonyGricar

09-05-2007, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Politigal

it's the slow burn thing though that I was having difficulty seeing Understandable. I only present it as a possibility, and like every other one that I can think of, I can circle back with various applied logic and move on to the next scenario's autopsy. Call it: The Circular Theory of Unsolved Disappearances - Any theory that can be initially supported and subsequently deconstructed to the point of it becoming the proverbial exercise of bashing one's head into a wall.

Fwiw, every single DA or ADA* that I have spoken to thinks that if foul-play, they would lean towards a lower-profile, slow-burner. That even includes a couple of former ADAs that are talking heads on the various networks.

*I've never spoken with KA, so she's not included in the polling group.

UndertheRadar

09-05-2007, 01:31 AM

Laws, right now I can't find anything other than undocumented notes that I have, saying the computer was purchased December 2004.

And somewhere there's a quote from either Dixon or Zaccagni saying RG used the laptop at home primarily for typing legal briefs. There may be one from PF as well saying they both used it for internet searches. Either which way, by the time RG disappeared, PF said that she couldn't remember the last time the laptop had been used.

Laws

09-05-2007, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
On the suicide angle....

the only thing that sort of stuck out to me was the location of the car --

the distress signal

S O S

The car being where it was found is what ruled out foul play to me as I am not involved with criminals, as Ray Gricar, was & know that if some creep approaches with a gun or anything else, do not go with them. Make as much as a fuss as one can & hope you survive, the odds are higher of survival. At least that's my understanding.

It's late I do not understand the reference to S O S above. Night.

ladyheartfixer

09-05-2007, 02:08 AM

Not sure where to post this but will throw it in here for what it's worth...

I read an interesting article today in the October 2007 issue of Psychology Today...it dealt with dissociative fugue-"a rare form of amnesia in which people suddenly begin traveling (or continue if on the road). They forget their identity, fail to recognize loved ones, and can't recall how they arrived wherever they are. Some later develop new personalities altogether. The trance lasts from a few hours to several years, and can involve travel across continents and oceans. One study put the average distance traveled by these wandering amnesiacs at 750 miles. The condition appears to be triggered by stress-often related to marital problems, financial worries or depression."

UndertheRadar

09-05-2007, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
Not sure where to post this but will throw it in here for what it's worth...

I read an interesting article today in the October 2007 issue of Psychology Today...it dealt with dissociative fugue-"a rare form of amnesia in which people suddenly begin traveling (or continue if on the road). They forget their identity, fail to recognize loved ones, and can't recall how they arrived wherever they are. Some later develop new personalities altogether. The trance lasts from a few hours to several years, and can involve travel across continents and oceans. One study put the average distance traveled by these wandering amnesiacs at 750 miles. The condition appears to be triggered by stress-often related to marital problems, financial worries or depression."

Pretty interesting, LHF. Long ago, probably about nine months after RG went missing, I did a lot of research into this after seeing a segment on a news program about someone who had disappeared while in a fugue state. When the photos first surfaced from Texas, I held out hope for a long time that maybe that's what was happening in this case . . . .

J. J. in Phila

09-05-2007, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by Laws

The car being where it was found is what ruled out foul play to me as I am not involved with criminals, as Ray Gricar, was & know that if some creep approaches with a gun or anything else, do not go with them. Make as much as a fuss as one can & hope you survive, the odds are higher of survival. At least that's my understanding.

I think you are at least partly correct here.

If RFG was "jacked," the best thing to do is make a fuss in the parking lot. That actually happened with the guy who killed those people in the Atlanta, GA courthouse at about the same time; he tried to steal a car and kindnap the driver, but the driver threw his keys and ran. It attracts attention; unless the perpetrator really wants to start shooting or stabbing, in mid Lewisburg, RFG escapes.

There is the possibility that he could have been lured into another vehicle, with someone he semi trusted. In that case, you would be talking about someone very intelligent, someone who could have come up with a brilliant plan to convince RFG to enter the car.

J. J. in Phila

09-05-2007, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
Not sure where to post this but will throw it in here for what it's worth...

I read an interesting article today in the October 2007 issue of Psychology Today...it dealt with dissociative fugue-"a rare form of amnesia in which people suddenly begin traveling (or continue if on the road). They forget their identity, fail to recognize loved ones, and can't recall how they arrived wherever they are. Some later develop new personalities altogether. The trance lasts from a few hours to several years, and can involve travel across continents and oceans. One study put the average distance traveled by these wandering amnesiacs at 750 miles. The condition appears to be triggered by stress-often related to marital problems, financial worries or depression."

Very interesting. One thing is the cigarette smoke. Somebody smoked in the car. The two witnesses in Wilkes-Barre, who claim to be "100% sure" it was RFG, said he was smoking.

I have wondered about a different personality emerging or a different created persona (that smokes cigarettes).

I think that this will be extent that I engage in psychology, and I'll leave it to posters with a medical background to explore. I do think it's a good idea to explore it. :)

UndertheRadar

09-05-2007, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by logicworks

The person is a state of fugue will typically either be found wandering, asking others for help, typically shows up at a hospital emergency room or local LE or even at a church at sometime. Some have been known to be out there for months, under a new identity created to survive. After 2.5 years, I would say the likelihood of that being the case are slim to none. Since RG did not show up anywhere, I place the possibility far down on the list along with suicide.

This is ultimately why I would also, at this point, place the possibility far down the list as well. Earlier in the case, there was still the possibility we might get reports of RG showing up somewhere asking for help, but 2+ years out, it's unlikely the confusion experienced by someone in a fugue state would not have driven RG to some place of safety asking for help.

Two little snippets showing what typically happens to someone in a fugue state:

Kevin Mura, age 54:

It was reported Mura last had contacted a Catholic priest in the Iowa community when he did not know his own name or where he lived and that something was wrong. He was taken to a psychiatrist for treatment of dissociative fugue. When his sons visited him over the weekend, he did not know his own name, failed to recognize them or react to photographs of the family.

How Mura got to the Iowa community is currently unknown. The father indicated he had ridden with truckers to such states as Arizona, Colorado and Florida before coming to Iowa. [snip]

According to the web site of mental-health-matters.com Dissociative Fugue is described as a person who adopts a new identity after leaving their previous living arrangements and forgetting or being confused about their previous identity. They are able to perform well enough to survive under the new identity. These episodes are generally caused by severe stress and are limited to a few days, but may last up to months. When the fugue ends, the person is unable to recall what occurred during this state.

http://www.findamos.com/wst_page3.html

Jeffrey Ingram, age 40

When Ingram found himself in Denver on Sept. 10, he didn’t know who he was. He said he walked around for about six hours asking people for help, then ended up at a hospital, where police spokeswoman Virginia Quinones said Ingram was diagnosed with a type of amnesia known as dissociative fugue.

People with dissociative fugue typically appear fine but have temporarily lost their sense of identity, are confused and impulsively travel away from home. Experts say it is rare and typically linked to severe stress.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15373503/

tonyGricar

09-05-2007, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Politigal
Not just in reference to the above post, but with regard to many of your posts, especially last night, I'm curious why you feel the need to always be so rude, arrogant and abrasive?

Why the major chip on your shoulder?

Why the need to constantly be so condescending? You might view your own posting style and inferences before casting such large stones. I tend to have a chip on my shoulder when I see similar, condescending and irresponsible posts from you, whether it be peripheral people's personal information or the constant beating of the PF drum based upon....? (seriously... PF did it because your gut says so?), or even the sarcasm of wanting percentages on the crime of opp, the "Suggestion for Tony" comment, etc. I guess since I'm a part of this case, I'm supposed to glad-hand every post here while others can lob potshots or post personal information behind an alias? Seriously?

If you prefer to only see information that fits your method of "research", then so be it and don't ask questions you apparently don't want answers to. I found your flippant retort of only wanting to know if there was a phone call from my Father to be exremely short-sighted, and ultimately in terms of research on such a case, irresponsible. You apparently did not prefer to see the actual, and very relevant, reality. Comparing and contrasting my Father's disappearance to that of my Uncle's has always been a key part of the last 2.5+ years. That was a road you wanted to go down, but you didn't apparently want to look past the shallow surface. No wonder you prefer your "simplist" of routes.

But, from my own personal view, your quoted issue from my post doesn't even skim condescending. As you may have noticed, I did have to correct your error, as I have had to in the past when the same story arose. I think everyone who's been here for any length of time knows the mulch story and it's innaccuracy. Look at the string of posts last night and you'll see that I also rather benignly answered some of your posts, while others, I feel, required additional content, correction, or commentary. But I guess the answers on the phone records, etc must have also been arrogant, rude, and abbrasive?

Anything else, you're more than happy to contact me offline as personal issues really have no place on this board. This was just a colossal waste time.

tonyGricar

09-05-2007, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by logicworks
IThe person is a state of fugue will typically either be found wandering, asking others for help, typically shows up at a hospital emergency room or local LE or even at a church at sometime. LW, UTR, and LHF - This is one thing we looked at very early on, even pre-psychic ;) . Between the media attention, notifications of police depts, flyers to homeless shelters, and the time lapse, we think something would have come of it.

tonyGricar

09-05-2007, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Very interesting. One thing is the cigarette smoke. Somebody smoked in the car. The two witnesses in Wilkes-Barre, who claim to be "100% sure" it was RFG, said he was smoking.

I have wondered about a different personality emerging or a different created persona (that smokes cigarettes).
So... Ray developed a different persona by lighting up some smokes, but still couldn't go all out and was seen at the Bennigan's wearing a suit? :D

No known suits were missing, btw. So we have people in Lewisburg saying he was dressed like Joe Yuppie, while later on he was seen smoking, inexplicably drinking a bud heavy, yet wearing a suit.

The above is meant to be humorous and in no way a beat down of any poster. I would find it comical that someone went alter-ego, bad boy by smoking but then couldn't break the surly bonds and retreated to the "comfort" of a 3-piece. Actually, it does kinda sound like him... or every CPA that I know.

UndertheRadar

09-05-2007, 12:10 PM

Unfortunately, "100% certainty" from an eyewitness can mean absolutely nothing, as we saw in the Maddie McCann case when the woman in Belgium was "100% certain" she saw Madeleine alive drinking through a straw there.

Except that DNA from the straw proved not to be Maddie's . . . so the witness was "100% wrong."

tiredoftheguff

09-05-2007, 01:03 PM

Go Tony!!!

Serendipitous1

09-05-2007, 01:56 PM

A couple of notes/suggestions (my opinion):

"Right 0n" totg. "If you build it, he will come!" I look for authoratative information...anywhere I can find it. Both LE and the media have been shut down for a long time. One of the best sources of information we have is TG. We want answers. TG has some answers. Each of us can take his posts as gospel, with a grain of salt, or not at all. TG has taken me to task a few times...and I have welcomed it because, in my heart, I have always believed that he is Ray Gricar's number one advocate. And while I know he and I could carry on "our" discussion off of these boards, I think that would be a shame to have to do that.

The search for an answer to RG's disappearance might well be found in current events. That is why I comb the Net for possibilities...like the pursuit of JL, corruption in the regional drug strike task force, and the emerging gaming board fiasco...and events connected to the river. I note that the dam at Sunbury is being worked on as I type this. This may be a good time for LE to get out and look at both sides of it, if they have not done so before.

day2day

09-05-2007, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
Understandable. I only present it as a possibility, and like every other one that I can think of, I can circle back with various applied logic and move on to the next scenario's autopsy. Call it: The Circular Theory of Unsolved Disappearances - Any theory that can be initially supported and subsequently deconstructed to the point of it becoming the proverbial exercise of bashing one's head into a wall.

Fwiw, every single DA or ADA* that I have spoken to thinks that if foul-play, they would lean towards a lower-profile, slow-burner. That even includes a couple of former ADAs that are talking heads on the various networks.

*I've never spoken with KA, so she's not included in the polling group.

Slips in for just a minute..(I am NOT sposed to be on the 'puter..but here i am)

Interesting that DA'S and ADA'S would lean towards a slow-burn ..yet the "famous centre county" DA seems not too interested in finding out what REALLY happened to Mr. Gricar.

jmo...

(thanks for the pms and emails everyone!-i will answer them as soon as i can):seeya:

day2day

09-05-2007, 02:03 PM

Serendipitous1

09-05-2007, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by day2day
<Snip>
Slips in for just a minute..(I am NOT sposed to be on the 'puter..but here i am)...

(thanks for the pms and emails everyone!-i will answer them as soon as i can):seeya: Good to hear from you again day! I was forming a search posse to head down south...called off now.

day2day

09-05-2007, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Good to hear from you again day! I was forming a search posse to head down south...called off now.

:seeya: S1...
Believe me it is SO nice to be here!! And thanks for roundin up the posse! I am happy to finally be back home and back in my jammies!! I was hopin that ya'll would have found Mr. Gricar by now! :(...

UndertheRadar

09-05-2007, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Slips in for just a minute.

Well this is a great blessing! You have had many of us very worried about you!

day2day

09-05-2007, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

Well this is a great blessing! You have had many of us very worried about you!

Hey there UTR! Im sorry I made you guys worry :( ! I wish I could have typed from the hospital..but I don't have a laptop :(
Hopefully I won't be sick again for a LONG LONG time..:(

Serendipitous1

09-05-2007, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by day2day

:seeya: S1...
Believe me it is SO nice to be here!! And thanks for roundin up the posse! I am happy to finally be back home and back in my jammies!! I was hopin that ya'll would have found Mr. Gricar by now! :(... Now there is a (mental) picture...day2day in her jammies at 2 p.m.!!?! LOL! We are hot on RG's trail...get your boots on! MOO

UndertheRadar

09-05-2007, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by day2day

Hey there UTR! Im sorry I made you guys worry :( ! I wish I could have typed from the hospital..but I don't have a laptop :(
Hopefully I won't be sick again for a LONG LONG time..:(

I'm sure we could have borrowed a laptop and shipped it out to your hospital room if we'd known you were held hostage there. It's just a relief to know you're safe and on the road to recovery!

day2day

09-05-2007, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by UndertheRadar

I'm sure we could have borrowed a laptop and shipped it out to your hospital room if we'd known you were held hostage there. It's just a relief to know you're safe and on the road to recovery!

Thanks UTR! It is so NICE to be home..! I have missed you guys so MUCH!! I hope you had a great weekend!
~hugs

Poolgirl

09-05-2007, 09:04 PM

It is no help to anyone to fight among yourselves. In reading posts over the last month it seems like some folks just want to be "right". Using such absolute terms such as "I have no doubt" makes it hard to actually discuss anything. TG knows more about the investigation than any of you. He knows what the police have and haven't done, what agencies other than BFD have done. And he has remained open to any possibility, which at this point is where things stand. While there may be evidence to some degree, there is nothing definite which points to any one person, place, or thing. Assumptions and feelings are just that - assumptions and feelings. There is nothing concrete to back them up. And by taking a hard and fast stand on a particular theory, you lose the ability to be open-minded and see the big picture. Yes, all of you care about finding out what happened to Ray Gricar and the only way to do that is to work together. Until some new piece of information becomes catalyst for a breakthrough, no one is "right".

J. J. in Phila

09-05-2007, 10:43 PM

I'm glad your at least well enough to post, Day. Hope you are feeling better.

And, I agree with TOTG, "Right on, Tony."

UndertheRadar

09-06-2007, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by gstickley

So, anytime you feel you need to slap wrists, here I am. I'm used to it.

Oh GS, you little Whipping Post, you. :)
(That's a great song, by the way, and thanks to you, I'll have it in my brain the rest of the night.)

Good points in your post. Hard to have the real feel for a place when you first walk in . . .

J. J. in Phila

09-06-2007, 12:33 AM

GS, a lot of this last exchange was brought on by the poster who started it. Likewise, a lot of the comments regarding the "Patty Bashers" were brought on by L-O-N-G history of it. Likewise, the "On-line Discussion" section of JKA's "paramour pages," are a prime example of it. This isn't anything new, and was occurring, well before I showed up. :rolleyes:

In a long term view, it been limited to two posters (P'gal is newer), though one with several incarnations. It was limited to one poster prior to UTR.

Now, that it has happened, by someone probably closely associated with the Centre County DA's office in 2005, is interesting, and certainly worthy of investigation. Does it have something to do with the disappearance of RFG? Maybe, or maybe not.

ladyheartfixer

09-06-2007, 02:04 AM

Tony...

First I want to thank you for spending some extra time with us this week. I have a question...were you ever asked and did you ever give a DNA sample? I do have a reason for my question and would be glad to explain it here when you answer or in a pm if you prefer...thanx

LHF

J. J. in Phila

09-06-2007, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by tonyGricar
So... Ray developed a different persona by lighting up some smokes, but still couldn't go all out and was seen at the Bennigan's wearing a suit? :D

No known suits were missing, btw. So we have people in Lewisburg saying he was dressed like Joe Yuppie, while later on he was seen smoking, inexplicably drinking a bud heavy, yet wearing a suit.

Surprisingly, yes.

I believe that there was a several day lapse between the sighting in Lewisburg, and the sighting in Wilkes-Barre. RFG could have acquired a suit, or even bought one prior to leaving.

Now, if the Wilkes-Barre sighting is correct, this wasn't suicide or murder. Let's assume that RFG was not suffering from a mental disorder, but just wanted to walk away. While traveling, he probably would have wanted to avoid being recognized.

Now, LE is looking for a middle aged man, non smoker, wearing a fleece and jeans. RFG adopts the persona of someone else, with an excuse for being on the road, like a sales rep. He wears the suit and smokes cigarettes.

It helps disguise him, to the point where PEF says, effectively, **That wasn't him, because all his suits are still here and he doesn't smoke.** Someone casually seeing him, might see a man in a suit, but not RFG.

You kinda know what consulting I do. I usually wear a suit. A few times, I've run into clients that have only seen me in a jacket and tie; they don't recognize me. Just recently, I saw an attorney who I had met for an hour and a half meeting about six months prior; at the meeting, I saw him in a two piece blue pinstripe suit (that looked a bit tight) and a red tie. I saw him two Saturdays ago in khaki pants and a polo shirt; I didn't recognize him, because he on different clothes.

There is no physical evidence to back up the sighting, but I can't discount it either. I'll give it a possible.

sherrijean981

09-06-2007, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Surprisingly, yes.

I believe that there was a several day lapse between the sighting in Lewisburg, and the sighting in Wilkes-Barre. RFG could have acquired a suit, or even bought one prior to leaving.

Now, if the Wilkes-Barre sighting is correct, this wasn't suicide or murder. Let's assume that RFG was not suffering from a mental disorder, but just wanted to walk away. While traveling, he probably would have wanted to avoid being recognized.

Now, LE is looking for a middle aged man, non smoker, wearing a fleece and jeans. RFG adopts the persona of someone else, with an excuse for being on the road, like a sales rep. He wears the suit and smokes cigarettes.

It helps disguise him, to the point where PEF says, effectively, **That wasn't him, because all his suits are still here and he doesn't smoke.** Someone casually seeing him, might see a man in a suit, but not RFG.

You kinda know what consulting I do. I usually wear a suit. A few times, I've run into clients that have only seen me in a jacket and tie; they don't recognize me. Just recently, I saw an attorney who I had met for an hour and a half meeting about six months prior; at the meeting, I saw him in a two piece blue pinstripe suit (that looked a bit tight) and a red tie. I saw him two Saturdays ago in khaki pants and a polo shirt; I didn't recognize him, because he on different clothes.

There is no physical evidence to back up the sighting, but I can't discount it either. I'll give it a possible.

If the Wilkes-Barre siting is correct, maybe LE from Wilkes-Barre should be checking the homeless in that area, looking for one in an old suit like the one supposedly seen on the missing RG in the bar. Do a Google on Wilkes-Barre homeless and it is overrun with them. Some have even committed murder, set others on fire. They have taken over an old factory for their home. They are living on the Appalachian Trail and use the shelters set up for hikers.

There are photo's on that search by Mashuga and others of the homeless, their make-shift homes, and stories of how they got there and what they have done to survive.

I sent an email to Mashuga months ago and a link to photo's of RG and to news articles, to see if he would keep an eye out for him. He emailed me back and said he had heard of the Missing DA Ray Gricar, would read the links I sent. He would make a copy of the photo's and would keep an eye out for him.

So did he change personalities and move on, is he in the area as a homeless man, or did someone find and hurt him in that area?
Those questions are as good as any others presented, but the photo's show it could happen - to anyone!

day2day

09-06-2007, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Now there is a (mental) picture...day2day in her jammies at 2 p.m.!!?! LOL! We are hot on RG's trail...get your boots on! MOO

Omylord that is FUNNY! (I hope we DON'T get our pictures taken cause my hair is a MESS) :santa:

J. J. in Phila

09-06-2007, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by sherrijean981

So did he change personalities and move on, is he in the area as a homeless man, or did someone find and hurt him in that area?
Those questions are as good as any others presented, but the photo's show it could happen - to anyone!

I do want to be clear. I am not suggesting a different personality, as in a psychological condition. I'm suggesting a disguise.

I don't give witness accounts a high degree of probability, overall, but as witness accounts, I give this one a bit higher probability for a witness account. For two reasons:

1. Multiple accounts of the same thing.

2. The contact was more than just a passing glance. They seem to have spoken with him.

day2day

09-06-2007, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I'm glad your at least well enough to post, Day. Hope you are feeling better.

And, I agree with TOTG, "Right on, Tony."

Thank you JJ it really feels GREAT to be back..and believe it or not-i even missed you :D

UndertheRadar

09-06-2007, 11:29 AM

My two cents on this angle on the Wilkes-Barre sighting:

I've heard Ray described as exceptionally smart, even brilliant, by those who knew him.

So IF it was Ray in Wilkes-Barre, my money wouldn't be on the theory that he was there "in disguise," since I find the idea of an attorney trying to DISGUISE himself by wearing a suit pretty funny, even if he was last known to be wearing blue jeans and a blue fleece outer garment. Most folks have two mental images of Ray: the guy in the blue jeans and the blue fleece, and the guy wearing a suit in the "attorney" photos that appear on various website photos.

In terms of clothing, if he wanted to disguise himself, there were smarter choices. An old army jacket. A leather bomber jacket. A ripped flannel shirt that would make him look more like the construction worker everyone's been interested in. Whatever . . .

And . . . if he had wanted to "disguise" himself, why in God's green earth would he stand in a bar talking about Ray Gricar's favorite baseball team? That would pretty much blow the "I'm wearing a suit to look like a sales rep" and "I'm smoking a cigarette and drinking the wrong beer" big time.

A brilliant man, even just a run-of-the-mill smart man, would come up with a better disguise than that, IMO.

J. J. in Phila

09-06-2007, 12:07 PM

One reason is to watch the news coverage, and to see how much it's gotten into the public psyche at that point. I also think there could be a bit of bravado on RFG's part, if this was him. ;) If this was a walkaway, there is lot of bravado in RFG's actions.

The suit provides another purpose. A white guy in a suit, especially a middle aged white guy in a suit, generates much less suspicion than someone in casual clothing, in many situations. I do not live or work in Center City Philadelphia, the business district. Occasionally for a social or business situation, I've been downtown, nicely dressed. What happens? People ask me directions because they assume that I work in the area, from my skin color and my appearance.

Yes, I've got to give Wilkes-Barre a tad higher on my list than the others. It is far from definitive, but it is interesting and a possibility I cannot discount.

And, yes UTR, it could have been a sales rep who stopped in for a drink at the bar and happens to be a Cleveland Indians fan.

UndertheRadar

09-06-2007, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by gstickley

He just suddenly decided to walk away? Nah, don't think so.

Agreed, GS. Early in the case, when I essentially only knew that RG had been a good DA but didn't know much about RG, the man, I entertained the idea of a voluntary, planned walkaway as possible.

At this point, I would all but rule it out, except for the miniscule possibility of some medically induced situation (a very unusual fugue state which has kept him from surfacing for more than two years) or some convoluted and bizarre tale involving the need to disappear because of some yet-unknown-to-us threat.

But both of those slim possibilities have such huge problems with them that I'd put the possibility of a walkaway at about .0001%. Just my humble opinion.

UndertheRadar

09-06-2007, 12:20 PM

JJ, the question is not really what would "generate less suspicion" in a bar in Wilkes-Barre.

The question is "What would make a good disguise for Ray Gricar?"

And the answer would NOT be wearing a suit, which he did every day to work, and talking about the Cleveland Indians, which was known to be a passion of his.

tonyGricar

09-06-2007, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by ladyheartfixer
Tony...

First I want to thank you for spending some extra time with us this week. I have a question...were you ever asked and did you ever give a DNA sample? I do have a reason for my question and would be glad to explain it here when you answer or in a pm if you prefer...thanx

LHF Btw, LHF, speaking for all, you are more than welcome to give your rationale behind questions. At times, the context can probably help me give you a better answer or include detail not mentioned yet.

I was initially asked by the PSP. iirc, I was in State College at the time, but was leaving that afternoon when I had received the request. I think arrangements were being made to have a sample taken in Ohio, but then something came up re: some confusion on bloodlines. I believe they actually were looking for a sample from the maternal side of Ray's family. I think it was the maternal side. Something to do with mitochondrial dna and a more usable sample from the maternal side. Admittedly (how's this for a shock...) I can profess to know very little about DNA.

JJ and UTR, have at it... <ding ding goes the Round 1 bell> :D

J. J. in Phila

09-06-2007, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by gstickley
UTR, I also thought RG was a mite smarter than that too.

As you can see from my last post, there are several very good reasons. And they are things that someone who was familiar with what witnesses remember would know. RFG dealt with eyewitness reports for about 32 years.

It also brings up the same questions:
How did he get there?

I think this is the key question, how did RFG get out of Lewisburg? A car purchase is the one possibility that has been unchecked; likewise being picked up someone is also a possibility, and his friends and coworkers have not been thoroughly checked.

Where did he stay from 04/14 until the time he was "reportedly" seen?

Possibly, not in Lewisburg. A lot of it depends how he left.

Why would he leave his nephews?
Why would he leave his daughter?
Why would he leave his "soulmate"?
Why would he leave his job?
Why would he leave his friends?
Why would he leave his constituents?

He was leaving his job and constituent, in a few months, so there is nothing too odd in that.

Family/friends/SO are another psychological question, but people have, sane responsible people with leadership jobs.

What was he doing for money?
Why would he leave what assets he had (retirement package)?

You've made an assumption that all his money was left behind; that might be incorrect.

Why would he be seen in area not that far from home?

Assume he bought a car or had a helper that he thought might crack (or answer truthfully if actually questioned by LE). He could have been waiting to see if that happened.

He just suddenly decided to walk away? Nah, don't think so.

First, there is no "suddenly" in the walkaway scenario. It presumes well planned action on RFG's part (which also means there might be evidence of it).

Second, I've heard two comments regarding RFG, which reveal the opinions of the speaker, but tell us nothing about the case. They are "Ray was to intelligent to walk into a trap," and "Ray wouldn't leave his loved ones behind." Both assume not only facts not in evidence, but facts unknowable. They deal with RFG's motivation on 4/15/05 and unless he called and told you, the claims are worthless.