Unexplained Phenomena - could it help RG?

[day2day]

Originally posted by Politigal
Just reading old stuff about Carla Baron --- seems she really made the rounds in this case.

Not only did she speak with Patty, Barbara and probably Tony, she also spoke with Zaccagni and according to Bill Keisling - him.

http://www.yardbird.com/midnight_ride_another_missing_PA_prosecutor_3.htm

So, it seems IMO, that Carla and several others would certainly be aware of when her searches would be taking place - and it's extremely interesting IMO - that the timing of those searches falls in line with the finding of the laptop and the hard drive respectively.

I also read where Keisling tried to arrange a meeting with Patty for info.....I'd really like to know when & if that occurred. [/*]

Right pgal!! I have been saying the same thing for a very long time now. I'm happy not to be the only one who "sees this"!
I would also LOVE to know if Mr. Keisling ever met her~

[Politigal]

Originally posted by day2day


Right pgal!! I have been saying the same thing for a very long time now. I'm happy not to be the only one who "sees this"!
I would also LOVE to know if Mr. Keisling ever met her~ [/*]

It seems that all the men who meet her, pity her. IMO

On Keisling...I've been reading a lot -- he comes from a very unique family.

He has a couple of brothers who are lawyers, a sister who used to be a brother, and some are into public relations, media consulting, graphic design, private research, writing, and all sorts of stuff.

From what I've read Keisling is always trying to push either a drug connection or Federal connection. And IMO, I truly don't believe either apply in RG's case. Luna is a different story IMO.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by logicworks


If RG did it, then when? [/*]

Maybe he planned it. Maybe so he would not have to be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. I don't think so though at this point. I am a flip flopper. Nothing is wrong with that.

I myself do not really think that Ray's car being at the SOS would in any way relate to suicide to me, but I didn't know his brother committed suicide. I know that Tony's family went through something, but that doesn't mean that Ray committed suicide. There are many areas closer to home. I also would think that if Ray started feeling suicidal that he would seek help because of what happened to his brother.

Also another scenario that presents itself is did the same person lure Ray to Raystown Dam. Knowing what they were planning on doing to him so that it looked as if he committed suicide. It makes you think suicide more when Det.Z said that he visited Huntingdon or Lake Raystown and then the next day he goes to a place that has water again.

If this was foul play, the person had to know the Rays brother committed suicide and make it look as if Ray did the same. What a great way to confuse everyone. I think that someone had this planned in advance and it wasn't Ray. It would have to be a person close to Ray. I wonder who all knew about his brother?
I would say if it was foul play then they were close to Ray and knew about his brother. Does anyone have any idea as to who all knew before it came out in the news? Probably only a handful or two of people. They are either a close friend, which it is said that he didn't mingle a lot, co-workers or someone in the family.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Politigal


It seems that all the men who meet her, pity her. IMO

On Keisling...I've been reading a lot -- he comes from a very unique family.

He has a couple of brothers who are lawyers, a sister who used to be a brother, and some are into public relations, media consulting, graphic design, private research, writing, and all sorts of stuff.

From what I've read Keisling is always trying to push either a drug connection or Federal connection. And IMO, I truly don't believe either apply in RG's case. Luna is a different story IMO. [/*]


I am sure that Bill Keisling knows more about what goes on than most people are aware. I like and respect him and always stand up for him.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella



I am sure that Bill Keisling knows more about what goes on than most people are aware. snipped [/*]

why do you think this?

[Cinderella]

Here is one link. Bill from what I understand has been into politics for most of his life.

http://www.vincecarocci.com/Capitol%20Journey%20website/excerpt5.htm


Just ask J. J. how much more people that are into politics know about what goes on and the corruption. But you will have to ask him that on another board as we are not supposed to speak politics here per J. J. :)

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by logicworks



I think it had to have been planned, but I don't think it was RG doing the planning.

We are to believe that all of a sudden, he didn't care whether he abandoned his position and responsibility to the voters of the county?
Or care whether the investigation into his disappearance went on and on, spending county monies for years to come?
Or care about company equipment, just tossing it in the river?
Or care about his family?
Or care about leaving everything behind?

In order to believe this we have to conclude he cared about everything up until the day he disappeared, and all of a sudden he no longer cared about anything. The conniving, scheming liar some choose to paint him as seems to me to be more of a description of someone we should be looking for rather than believing it was RG with those character defects,

ALL of those factors have been created by the belief in either suicide, with NO body, or run away, and the only way to create either one of them is to take the 'joking the day before' RG and the super-responsible RG and turn him into something he had never evidenced himself as being.

If it ever turns out that he was a 'fake' then and only then would I ever believe it. Until then, no one will convince me that he was a 'fake'. The day the ashes and strong smoke odor were found in his car is the day this case should have been moved to foul play.
JMO [/*]

I agree. Also there should be a suspect list. Family members, co-workers, friends, any one who knew about his brother.

[Cinderella]

Doesn't it seem strange that the people that knew about his brother were not interviewed. Wonder why?

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella
Here is one link. Bill from what I understand has been into politics for most of his life.

http://www.vincecarocci.com/Capitol%20Journey%20website/excerpt5.htm


Just ask J. J. how much more people that are into politics know about what goes on and the corruption. But you will have to ask him that on another board as we are not supposed to speak politics here per J. J. :) [/*]

from the link --- I think that is actually referring to Keisling's father

[Cinderella]

I am pretty sure that Bill is into politics. Ask J. J. he would know.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I am pretty sure that Bill is into politics. Ask J. J. he would know. [/*]

yes, he is, but the article you linked is about his dad MOO

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by logicworks



Because it was easier for them to think RG 'dunnit'.
Path of least resistance, it seems. [/*]


I am wondering if they will also discount the man that stated that he saw Ray on April 15, 2005 at 7:30 a.m. If they do without good reason, then I give up. I tend to think of the statement that Thomas Ungard made.

McKenna and Ungard announced Benchino's arrest at a February press conference, during which Ungard said the case would send ‘‘shockwaves" through the community because of Benchino's ‘‘steady clientele of 30 to 35 people, some of whom are middle-class businessmen and a few women."

I think that Ungard could send shockwaves throughout PA. with what he knows. I don't know what he knows, but I bet he knows who is the higher ups into the drug business. And I feel that Ray's disappearance stems from his testifying on the following Monday. I feel that someone was very threatened by what Ray knew.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Politigal


yes, he is, but the article you linked is about his dad MOO [/*]


Sorry, darn if I didn't ruin my day by messing up. :shrug:

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cinderella



Sorry, darn if I didn't ruin my day by messing up. :shrug: [/*]

I didn't say you messed up :)

just that the article you linked and the person you were referring to, is Bill Keisling's father...

and I'm still curious why you think he would know more about the case?

[Cinderella]

I didn't mean to imply that he knows more about this case. What I was referring to was the books that he writes. I also very much like his writing style.

[J. J. in Phila]

Keisling ran for the Democratic nomination for PA Governor in 1998 and lost to Ivan Itkan, who, in turn was slaughtered by Tom Ridge in the General.

[Cloudbuster]

Does anyone happen to know if Keisling has a nickname??

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Does anyone happen to know if Keisling has a nickname?? [/*]

Snark? :tongue:

[Cloudbuster]

Your kidding right lol?

[Cloudbuster]

Pgal Im not sure if you read this story but Keisling was supposed to do the story or should I say supposed to have the dossier at which he didn't end up with.
http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/19980704broddy5.asp:read:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Pgal Im not sure if you read this story but Keisling was supposed to do the story or should I say supposed to have the dossier at which he didn't end up with.
http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/19980704broddy5.asp:read: [/*]

CB, I've become quite convinced that your ghost knows what he's talking about, but he's speaking Slovenian, and you don't understand him. ;)

You might want to listen to some Toni Basil.

[Cinderella]

J. J., I heard some of the ghost. CB told me way before what the ghost was saying. I really lines up. I don't know how the ghost got through, but he did. I think God is granting Miracles. I think that people that were involved in Ray's disappearance should be shaking in their shoes, because God is in charge not them. They think that they are. Prayer is powerful. It seems little by little we are getting the full story from the ghost and it is proving to be true.

You better watch out J. J. You might need another shot of whiskey.

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


CB, I've become quite convinced that your ghost knows what he's talking about, but he's speaking Slovenian, and you don't understand him. ;)

You might want to listen to some Toni Basil. [/*]


Do you have any evidence that Ray is in Slovenia? Or are you just guessing?

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks Cind!! JJ take a shot of whisky cause I know Im not nuts. He isn't talking Slovania but I think you believe he is another place but really JJ Im not joking and Im not embarrassed for it. Im being serious and you will just have to sit back and see. If it's the last thing I DO I will prove what Im telling you!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Thanks Cind!! JJ take a shot of whisky cause I know Im not nuts. He isn't talking Slovania but I think you believe he is another place but really JJ Im not joking and Im not embarrassed for it. Im being serious and you will just have to sit back and see. If it's the last thing I DO I will prove what Im telling you!!! [/*]

CB, I didn't say you were nuts, but the story you linked to involved Slovenia. I actually don't think you are "nuts." I'm just appreciating the irony that you don't realize how sane you are. :)

I'm permitted to be cryptic on occasion; this is one of them.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cinderella



Do you have any evidence that Ray is in Slovenia? Or are you just guessing? [/*]

If I had any evidence about where RFG was, I wouldn't be posting.

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks JJ I think.:read:
This whole tape thing has me in deep thought and I hope my brother can help with the muddled parts. I should mention to you my brother doesn't believe in this stuff either just a small percentage of it. He is real hardcore type of person but yet he wants to help. I would be happy for anyone who pm's me and wants to help. Some have and I thank you. If you want a copy pm me and I will mail it. Maybe then we can put this to rest for the family's sake. :read:

[Cloudbuster]

I wanted to point out something that freaked me in todays article.
Here is the paragraph: CDT

In Gricar’s car, investigators found traces of cigarette ash on his passenger side floor. Gricar did not smoke. Ash turns out to be a key piece of evidence in “20/20 Vision,” proving the killer did not actually take his own life. The fictional town of Shawneeville is based upon State College and Penn State.

The fictional town of SHAWNEEVILLE? I brought up the shawnee indians way back from a dream, now I wonder how can there be so many coindences in one case? This baffles me. Im scratching my head now. :confused:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

The fictional town of SHAWNEEVILLE? I brought up the shawnee indians way back from a dream, now I wonder how can there be so many coindences in one case? This baffles me. Im scratching my head now. :confused: [/*]

CB, the Princess Shaw-nee legend is mentioned in the story. A lot of it is not the way you think,but if you knew, I don't think you would question your sanity.

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks JJ Im just losing it. I keep running into so many coindences I can't sleep. Im hoping this case gets a big break soon and I think it will. Im crossing my fingers and praying a whole lot. One thing after another keeps happening in my mind and it makes you to start wondering about yourself. It literally is blowing my mind lol.

[Cloudbuster]

My mind is no longer blown. After reading this I understand somewhat what I didn't before. Cryptically someone ask me what I was referencing and I just saw this. I will leave it silent only a few will grasp the meaning, so it is on the right thread.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/327003.html
Friday, Jan. 11, 2008
Exarchos to run for seat in Congress
By Mike Josep---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.lockhaven.com/page/content.detail/id/500695.html?nav=5009 more of the same.
http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_8020323

[J. J. in Phila]

Not related.

[Politigal]

Thought this thread was as good as any.....and it sort of falls into the "unexplained phenomena" category --

The last time Tony was updating the family website, I suggested that he use Googlepages, since it was free, easy to work with, etc., and I was sincere. But, Tony didn't much care for the idea and said it wouldn't get the same exposure or number of hits...

Interestingly.....however, if you google keywords

Missing District Attorney Ray Gricar

or

Ray Gricar Missing District Attorney

or Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar

etc....

My googlepages tops his website in order of links.

What does that say?? That some crazy little old hippie in TX is generating more interest in the case than the family, or what?

is that snowshoes I hear....lol


oh I almost forgot -- S1 - I finally got a hit from the state of WA. ;)

[Serendipitous1]

JMOO - But, when I google "Ray F. Gricar", or Ray Gricar, or even just Gricar, raygricar.com is at the top, and your site is not even on the page. Interestingly, JKA's sponsored link is still there too.

I believe raygricar.com appeared about 6/1/05. And I recall reading somewhere that it garnered over 27,000 hits from about 3,700 unique visitors within 5 days...about 32,000 unique visitors by the end of July...and about another 13,000 unique visitors within just the 2 days after the laptop discovery hit the news.

I do not know, but 45,000 unique visitors in the first 2 months or so sounds impressive, given the nature of the site. Glad to hear you finally got a visit from WA though! . . . :read:

[J. J. in Phila]

When I ran "Ray Gricar" a few days ago, I got P'gal's pages on the second page.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
JMOO - But, when I google "Ray F. Gricar", or Ray Gricar, or even just Gricar, raygricar.com is at the top, and your site is not even on the page. Interestingly, JKA's sponsored link is still there too.

I believe raygricar.com appeared about 6/1/05. And I recall reading somewhere that it garnered over 27,000 hits from about 3,700 unique visitors within 5 days...about 32,000 unique visitors by the end of July...and about another 13,000 unique visitors within just the 2 days after the laptop discovery hit the news.

I do not know, but 45,000 unique visitors in the first 2 months or so sounds impressive, given the nature of the site. Glad to hear you finally got a visit from WA though! . . . :read: [/*]

that is impressive...

I just think google's not so bad for a freebee

[Tree_of_Life]

Originally posted by Politigal


that is impressive...

I just think google's not so bad for a freebee [/*]


Google's free tools are mostly good IMO. Although I will say that recently I had two separate instances of Google's Maps locations being completely wrong. And in both times it literally put me in the wrong place. (After I drove there and the locations didn't exist.) This is not so much an inaccuracy of the maps themselves, but rather where Google places locations of businesses etc. after you search for their locations on the map. Just thought I'd mention this as a caution.........

[Cloudbuster]

With this thread being titled unexplained phemona Im going to put out this in hopes that someone could pm me the answer to this.

"Around the courthouse I know Patty thinks the horses, oh the horses are her soul".

[Cloudbuster]

Being what this thread is titled I have a question that only one person could answer?

How could you stand there when someone pleaded with you to tell them how much the person loved you? You said nothing. You only got mad at the end. I guess you knew being there made you what?

Sometimes the universe is like a recorder of everything that happens. Sometimes we learn what's recorded in it and most times we don't. Our MW remains to know that answer.

[Serendipitous1]

Uneasy affiliation: Police and psychics
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/focus/s_561288.html

Thought I would post this here...an interesting article (whether you are pro-psychic, anti-psychic, or somewhere in between), with a passing mention of RG's case.

[gstickley]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Uneasy affiliation: Police and psychics
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/focus/s_561288.html

Thought I would post this here...an interesting article (whether you are pro-psychic, anti-psychic, or somewhere in between), with a passing mention of RG's case. [/*]

Interesting article.

Found this at the bottom of it . . . . . . . also interesting.

Marking an anniversary

Two years ago today, dentist John J. Yelenic was murdered in his Blairsville home. While his accused killer, suspended state trooper Kevin J. Foley, 42, of White, Indiana County, awaits trial, Yelenic's family will have a candlelight vigil at 7 tonight in front of his house at 233 S. Spring St. The public is welcome.

Jill King Greenwood can be reached at jgreenwood@tribweb.com or 412-321-2160. Chris Togneri can be reached at ctogneri@tribweb.com.

[Serendipitous1]

I noticed that too...but I did not want to make (yet another) inane comparison. MOO

[gstickley]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I noticed that too...but I did not want to make (yet another) inane comparison. MOO [/*]

"inane comparison"??? Maybe to others; not to me.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by gstickley


Interesting article.

Found this at the bottom of it . . . . . . . also interesting.

Marking an anniversary

Two years ago today, dentist John J. Yelenic was murdered in his Blairsville home. While his accused killer, suspended state trooper Kevin J. Foley, 42, of White, Indiana County, awaits trial, Yelenic's family will have a candlelight vigil at 7 tonight in front of his house at 233 S. Spring St. The public is welcome.

Jill King Greenwood can be reached at jgreenwood@tribweb.com or 412-321-2160. Chris Togneri can be reached at ctogneri@tribweb.com. [/*]

The difference being Dr. Yelenic is known to be dead. Unless you know something nobody else does, it isn't applicable.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Vigils honoring missing persons are held all the time.
Dead is NOT a requirement.
Some states go so far as to hold a vigil for all of the missing in their state. Here is what Maryland has done, as ceremony.

http://somd.com/news/headlines/2006/3677.shtml [/*]

It is still relatively rare. The vigils that I've seen genenally are not for a person who might have left voluntarily (walkaway or suicide).

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Try a search....... vigil, missing.
It is NOT in the least bit rare, except in this case.
JMO [/*]

I found four out of the first 60 hits, where the vigil was more than a year; two were 10 or more years.

Yes, they are rare, but are more common soon after the person disappears.

[Cloudbuster]

In a unexplained Phenomena I told you once before about words.
These words "you crossed Mo Mo you basta.d." I also told you of one person named Mo Mo in Baltimore it was a drug related case. Now I can't explain coindences cause frankly I don't understand them BUT here is another weird coindence YEP another Baltimore MO a nickname of course. Oddly it's another drug occurrence, heroin.

http://www.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=15631
The case at hand was against Eric Lamont Bennett's drug organization, which had operated in the late 1990s in Baltimore and Westminster, and the crimes Luna was prosecuting included the East Baltimore shooting, in 2000, of Tillman Jr.'s son, Milton Tillman III, nicknamed "Mo." The violence erupted over a drug deal gone bad, and though ((((Mo survived)))), two other men were murdered before the night was out.

By May 2002, Luna had won convictions against men held responsible for these and other crimes, including Bennett, Solomon Jones, and Tavon Bradley. The three have since won appeals and Jones and Bradley been reconvicted and resentenced. Bennett was scheduled to be resentenced on April 18, but the hearing was postponed and has not yet been rescheduled.

The three convicts had been part of a team of drug dealers who had sold Mo and two other buyers a bag of baking soda for $3,000 on Jan. 18, 2000. Before Mo and his friends could learn they'd been burned, Bennett's gang went gunning for them. Luna asserted that, having robbed Tillman Jr.'s son, they figured they were as good as dead unless they struck first.

Luna based his comments on the trial testimony of Damien Simmons, the man who shot Mo three times in the back and became a cooperating witness against Bennett and the others, and on a U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency memo. That document, dated March 2000, called(((( Tillman Jr. the head of a crime family with a 20-year history in the East Baltimore heroin trade ))))and warned that the then-imprisoned Tillman Jr. appeared to be conspiring to hit back at Bennett and his crew.

Just another unexplained coindence. Heck this Mo probably went back to school by now and has his masters degree.

[Cloudbuster]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ8bIILY3Fw
This is for all who lost hope, you just got to have faith.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ8bIILY3Fw
:rose:

[Tree_of_Life]

Originally posted by logicworks
Just sharing a 'strange' experience, for those who are interested. All others, pass on by.

'Eerie' similarities..........always wondering about 'frames of mind' and possible 'motive' in the RG disappearance.

No TV for me, skipping over all the movies to work and read, saving the movies during my lifetime for 'later' when I would finally find the time to relax and enjoy them. Slowly I have begun to 'pick and choose' those that spark my interest.

Last week I ordered a 'group of classics and a few 'others' when a friend passed along a catalog from PBS she thought I would be interested in. They arrived, and I chose one to watch over the weekend. It is called Body and Soul, a story about a woman, who was a nun, and how major changes in other's lives forced her to take a new look at her life and change it.

I was totally shocked when the opening scenes began with the woman' brother, driving in a red and white Mini-Copper, like RG's. He drives to the water, carrying a briefcase (case not all that dissimilar in shape or size from a laptop) to a body of water, and at water's edge he opens up the case and tosses the contents in. After doing so he drives away and commits suicide in his wife's red and white Mini-Cooper.

I was 'shocked' at what I was seeing, because the small blurp in the catalog made no mention of ANY of it. For a few minutes, I thought they must have sent me the wrong movie.......LOL, and wondering why in the world, of ALL the movies I waited for the first one I pick up is this one???

It was one of those moments of 'confusion' when I simply couldn't fully connect with what I was seeing. I was shaking my head trying to understand what the difference was between the movie I randomly chose and a case I have been studying for three years, while at the same time wondering did 'someone' watch this movie? It was one of those strange moments when fact meets fiction.

I gave it to a friend yesterday to watch, but she couldn't move it from one episode to another so I had to go over and help her do so, and when I did, that scene kept replaying as I tried to get it to move to the next episode........I still haven't gotten over how very, very strange the similarities are.

I just looked the movie up online and it appears to have come out in 1993, with a PBS showing in 1998. I had never heard of it before and neither had my friend who watches TV. Too strange....
JMO [/*]

Wow, LW, that is a very strange and eerie coincidence. I'm going to try to find the movie you're talking about. Any other strange coincidences in the movie?

If I could only count the number of times strange things like this has occurred in my life regarding RG's disappearance, I still think about my visions and how closely they resembled parts of the HE episode. I will likely wonder about it until the truth is known or I am dead.

I am moving from PA to Central California in a month and there is a part of me that thinks I should let go of the whole Gricar mystery. Unless it is solved within the next few weeks.

Mr. Gricar, if you are out there, send us a sign.:eek:

[J. J. in Phila]

I think it's just coincidence. We have three with initials "J. J." touching on RFG, all with a Philadelphia connection, me, and FBI agent, and a minister that was a spokesman for the victim's family in the Grove case, No, no connection between any of us.

[day2day]

Originally posted by logicworks
Just sharing a 'strange' experience, for those who are interested. All others, pass on by.

'Eerie' similarities..........always wondering about 'frames of mind' and possible 'motive' in the RG disappearance.

No TV for me, skipping over all the movies to work and read, saving the movies during my lifetime for 'later' when I would finally find the time to relax and enjoy them. Slowly I have begun to 'pick and choose' those that spark my interest.

Last week I ordered a 'group of classics and a few 'others' when a friend passed along a catalog from PBS she thought I would be interested in. They arrived, and I chose one to watch over the weekend. It is called Body and Soul, a story about a woman, who was a nun, and how major changes in other's lives forced her to take a new look at her life and change it.

I was totally shocked when the opening scenes began with the woman' brother, driving in a red and white Mini-Copper, like RG's. He drives to the water, carrying a briefcase (case not all that dissimilar in shape or size from a laptop) to a body of water, and at water's edge he opens up the case and tosses the contents in. After doing so he drives away and commits suicide in his wife's red and white Mini-Cooper.

I was 'shocked' at what I was seeing, because the small blurp in the catalog made no mention of ANY of it. For a few minutes, I thought they must have sent me the wrong movie.......LOL, and wondering why in the world, of ALL the movies I waited for the first one I pick up is this one???

It was one of those moments of 'confusion' when I simply couldn't fully connect with what I was seeing. I was shaking my head trying to understand what the difference was between the movie I randomly chose and a case I have been studying for three years, while at the same time wondering did 'someone' watch this movie? It was one of those strange moments when fact meets fiction.

I gave it to a friend yesterday to watch, but she couldn't move it from one episode to another so I had to go over and help her do so, and when I did, that scene kept replaying as I tried to get it to move to the next episode........I still haven't gotten over how very, very strange the similarities are.

I just looked the movie up online and it appears to have come out in 1993, with a PBS showing in 1998. I had never heard of it before and neither had my friend who watches TV. Too strange....
JMO [/*]


Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! LW you gave me the chills! Now that is eerie!! I am going to check amazon and see if i can pick this up. Out of ALL the movies out there..you had to pick this one?!? SOMEONE somewhere is tryin to tell YOU somethin!!

[puzzled]

I wonder if the drug case/ Bennett guy is connected at all to the guy at the SOS...Craig Bennett? Ten seconds after we stepped into the SOS John Lennons song Imagine began to play. I nearly started crying. Also when we went to this restaraunt in Carlisle there was a large round clock that said Yuengling on it. Some of the guys on here seem to like that type of beer I think. For awhile there was a truck beside us that said Ray on it in big black letters. There were many more coincidences or signs also. When Imagine came on as soon as we arrived I felt like Ray was sending a message to me as I really think it is a beauitful song but it really gets to me emotionally so I try to avoid listening to it. Just imagine if this whole world lived in peace......and yes I am a dreamer. I can't understand how someone could kill someone as peaceful as Ray. Someone who worked his heart out every day to make this world a better place. May he rest in peace and may the good Lord cradle him in his arms forever.
My sis up in heaven I can tell for sure will not rest until Ray is found and the case is solved. She absolutely adored him. The sun rose and set on Ray as far as she was concerned.

[Cloudbuster]

LW wow what a eeeerie experience! What really amazed me was the part about the man tossing his briefcase. I still have reason to believe RG tossed the laptop.

I can also relate to TOL's experience about the HE episode.

Puzzled I do believe we are given coincidences to speak to us as signs.

This sight in the left hand conor has some articles on sycronicities and more.
http://in2worlds.net/abductions2

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by logicworks
Just wanted to add an interesting 'twist' regarding that movie,

The reason the man committed suicide was because someone who worked for him was 'sucking' money out of him and he was being lied to. The person acted like his 'best buddy'. [/*]


LW I can't help but to say the twist seems so close to what seems so right.

[Cloudbuster]

Just opening the case and tossing the contents is close enough for me. If you do find anything else out on it please let us know it is eeerie and interesting!! I have problems using my DVD player lol. When I hook it up I now know, I can't use all three colored lines in mine. Only 2 will work with my TV. It took me a while to learn that a word (line) must appear on my TV set before the DVD player will play roflmao. Using my VCR is easy because both TV's have a built in one.

[Cinderella]

Cloudbuster, I am also clue less on hooking up and connecting things. :shrug:

One of my best friends must know how to do everything. She suspected that her husband was running around and connected, a tape player or some devise that she got for doing this and hide the tape player part under her oven door. She knew that her husband would never look there. BTW, she caught him talking to someone on the telephone. Now the computer is much more safer to be using.

[Cinderella]

I really don't know if I can add to this or not, but they want to put a landfill in at Snow Shoe. There have been many battles over this as Rush Township is leading it. The land is Rush Township land, but sits very close to Moshannon and the Snow Shoe area. There has been a lot of controversy over this landfill being put in Rush Township close to Snow Shoe.

The commissioners were even voting on this proposal. I don't know when the plans were in the works for this landfill, but there has been much debate.

Could this have something to do with anything? I don't know, just tossing it out there.

[Cloudbuster]

S! do you know of any songs with the word [COLOR=deeppink]66 in it?[?/COLOR] 66

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
S! do you know of any songs with the word [COLOR=deeppink]66 in it?[?/COLOR] 66 [/*]

Bobby Troup's "Get your Kicks on Route 66." The Nelson Riddle instrumental.

[Cloudbuster]

Thanks JJ Im going to have to look into that one. 66 is the beginning of a song on the tape. It references a Mary and Mary has a violent past. The old route 66 also goes clear to California. I will explore the song.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Thanks JJ Im going to have to look into that one. 66 is the beginning of a song on the tape. It references a Mary and Mary has a violent past. The old route 66 also goes clear to California. I will explore the song. [/*]

There is a State Route 66 in Westmoreland County, the western part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Route_66

Here at the lists of State Route 66's around the US.

BTW, you are channeling me, again. ;)

[Cloudbuster]

LOL I wish I knew what I was channeling. Im grateful for your help!!! So what I have is a possible route 66. Mary (whoever she is) has a violent past and you cannot escape. ( I suppose the person can't escape her. ) Okay and the word she lost her blouse is also in the song.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ I found the song Lyrics and the meaning and it's errie.
Here are the lyrics:

If you ever plan to motor west,
Travel my way,
Take the highway that’s the best –
Get your kicks on Route 66.It winds from Chicago to LA,
More than two thousand miles all the way.
Get your kicks on Route 66.Now you go through Saint Looey
Joplin, Missouri,
and Oklahoma City is mighty pretty.
You see Amarillo,
Gallup, New Mexico,
Flagstaff, Arizona.
Don’t forget Winona,
Kingman, Barstow, San Bernandino.

Won’t you get hip to this timely tip:
When you make that California trip
Get your kicks on Route 66.

Won’t you get hip to this timely tip:
When you make that California trip
Get your kicks on Route 66.
Come on in — get your kicks on Route 66.
Get your kicks on Route 66.

In the first stanza (section) of the song, it says “If you plan to motor west.” To motor is an older expression meaning to drive in a car, to take a trip in a car. The singer is recommending that you take Route 66. “To get your kicks” is explained more in the podcast. Next the song says, “It winds from Chicago to LA.” This is the verb to wind, meaning that that Route 66 isn’t a straight line, but curves as it moves across the country. To wind rhymes with “mind” and “kind.” Don’t confuse this verb with the noun, wind. Wind is what happens when the air blows in a certain direction, and the noun wind rhymes with “sinned” (the “i” short, like the “i” in him).

Saint Looey is slang for Saint Louis, a large city in the state of Missouri. The song mentions several of the cities, big and small, that are on Route 66. Then it says, “Won’t you get hip to this timely tip.” To get hip to is an old expression, popular in the 1940s and 1950s, meaning to become informed about something, to get information about something, to become aware of something. Timely means useful, coming right at the right time, not too late.

http://www.eslpod.com/eslpod_blog/2007/10/24/karaoke-english-get-your-kicks-on-route-66/

The U Tube song is song on the link.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


Does anyone know for certain that area was thoroughly searched? If so, was it a grid search? Was it done with a cadaver dog? Did it include that quarry and holding ponds?
Did anyone witness or report anything strange going on that day down that road?
ALL JMO [/*]

Tony said he and his brother searched in that area.

My one photo taken in the park came out the same way as at that intersection. The only 2 photo's that ever came out that way on my camera.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



For those interested in intuition...........


I wish it could be grid searched by a trained SAR team and a cadaver dog. Cadaver dogs have been known to find evidence over a full dozen years later.

I researched a bit today on the meaning of the horse shoe. It seems if it is upside down, it means good luck. If it is in the opposite position, it means luck running out. This one is in the opposite position......it is in the position of luck running out. One thing is certain..... the day RG disappeared was one unlucky day for Centre County, for the State of PA, and for his loved ones.

There are two triangles, appearing to be symbolic of 'crowns' above each head.
A smaller crown is in position over the one man's head, and one very much larger 'crown' is in position over the other. I have always thought they were symbolic of power, with one holding a great deal more power than the other.
(Maybe they are dunce's caps, after all; one big dunce and one small dunce)

The first time I scanned across the bridge and saw the two faces, my first thought was 'why in the world is Union County putting two faces of officials on their GIS map??' It took me some time to realize that what I was seeing wasn't showing up on other people's maps.

While I have gone full circle with thinking maybe they are a couple of thugs, one holding power over the other, or maybe they are 'hit men' and one was more powerful or maybe they are a 'couple', one dominating the other----you name it, I have tried to put those 'crowns' on everyone I can think of. But now, the more secrecy I see wrapped around this case, the more it brings me back to my first original thought, they are likely exactly what I thought they were, 'officials' who hold power; one small power, one much greater power, and judging from the position of the horse shoe, IMO, whoever they are, they are not bearers of good luck for RG.
JMO [/*]

When I first started looking at the maps in that area, I questioned about that quarry. Just following through the area and then around it, there are ponds and it is a large area, with woods around it. I think too they need someone to search it.
Wish I could see the faces you are seeing.

I would like to know why Union County DA has not tried to find out more or do more to help find RG, instead of showing up at the news conference to help bad-mouth Buehner. Especially since there are prison's in that area, a drug investigation going on at the time, and what Tony thought was an INS van in the area. Something was going down in that area but what?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



I just printed out the Jim Morrison photo to see what might show up and sure enough, SJ, it is of the psychedelic type. Very strange.....
JMO [/*]

There is some kind of energy going on in the park across from the museum, on the bridge and just past the light on Rt 45 going east at the bridge, at that auto detail business. None of my other photo's did that.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



It could be the route, energy trail, someone traveled away from the SOS lot, or the return route to the SOS lot.

The Jim Morrison looking guy is positioned to be looking directly toward the SOS, as if watching for something or someone. The other is positioned, looking toward the concrete bridge.

If the witnesses who claim they saw RG driving 'somewhere' , close to 5 pm, actually know him and can positively identify the driver as having been RG, then I would guess there had to be a big reason he was still in that area, away from home on a day off at a time when he should have been back and headed for the usual Friday night spot with the SO.

What was he doing down in that area at 5 pm on a Friday night? What possible reason is there for him not to have called to say it wasn't going to be the 'usual Friday night', and that he would be late? I am not pointing toward some rigid report-in time.....I am talking about common courtesy, so why is it absent? Why no call?

If he was seen close to 5 pm, was the tip discounted by LE without being thoroughly checked out because it would conflict with Bennett's 'timeline' of 'the car's arrival at the SOS lot somewhere close to 5 pm? Was it far enough away from the SOS to discredit Bennett's 5 pm story? OR is Bennett's story what we are to believe unless we are told something different?

Also wondering if the 'observers' are watching for RG, or watching for someone with RG? If so, how would they know exactly where to watch? Possibly either the other person's car was left parked in the SOS lot after meeting RG there or the Mini was left parked there while RG and someone went somewhere? If so, does that somehow tie back to the Fenton sighting? If there was a trip back to Bellefonte, who was with him may be the 'big secret'.

I see what I believe are two people watching for him or for someone with him. Horse shoe position says they were not friends. Other than that, just more speculation and more questions., which is exactly why we need a full investigation. The questions are endless without the facts, facts that are not forthcoming for whatever reason under the current regime.

JMO [/*]

Which direction was the man and his wife going when they saw RG? Where exactly were they when they saw him? It could be possible they saw him just before he went to the SOS, no matter which direction they were going. There are a couple of ways to get there from RT 15, which would then have 2 sitings around 5pm. That could even make CF's siting correct. He could have made it from Bellefonte to SOS even leaving Bellefonte at 3:30.

[Cloudbuster]

LW I spoke to Cind earlier asking her to look at your post to see if I was interpreting it correctly. After our conversation I went to dinner and to a book store. In the back of the store is the sales rack. I miffled thru the books and I come accross a Jim Morrison book titled "The Lost Writings of Jim Morrison" At the bottom of the front cover it says The poems and diaries of a rock n roll legend. WILDERNESS volume 1. It was strange to have this book just happen to be there along with a price that I just could'nt pass up. The front cover includes a good photo of him.

I will say this and explain better later. I do believe RG was watched. I also believe one person watched the laptop be tossed. :rose:

[Cloudbuster]

I believe that sometimes messages can come from other people to us when sending out our questions to the universe. For me I have struggled with those names that I know only one of them could be right, they are (Sparkles, Markles, Marshall) that's what I narrowed down too upon hearing over and over, by tape.

Last night I was bored on here and all I ever really do is research. Lastnight I decided to break lose a little and do something that I Never do, I went into a universal psychic chat room. I decided to have a little fun :) except the fun which was supposed to be enertaining ended up being a experience that I think I will always remember.

I asked a question in the room " If someone in here is a true psychic you could tell me the name my ghost said that killed him?" The challenge was on. The responder said" It's a "S " name...Spider? Spike? Something like that". I was floored by that alone and thought how close this faceless person was to my own thoughts. I asked him to go on and he said "Sparks...but i think that is a nickname...what did you think you heard?" I preceeded to say Sparkles and OMG.

You see this person could of picked a million male or female names but he didn't he picked Sparks and said it was a nickname. Im very overwheelmed by that. I still don't understand how he did that but I will except it.

I ask him about this Sparks because being that it is a nickname I needed more information and of course after that I was hooked by that. He responds" Okay ...I've read a little about this guy. Sparks is someone he worked with or was working with...maybe a stripper...Sparks may also refer to his killers nickname...like the guy was a radioman in the navy or something like that."
I asked him about a MW his response was " I think that was a woman he was having a affair with. Also a co worker or someone he met thru work, but she was working with the person Sparks to set him up. She's either related, dating, or married to Sparks. Ray was in the way of someone who wanted to advance, or was making money they shouldn't have that Ray knew about."


I asked why all this happened and response was " They may have wanted to move up at a lower level...might have been a different department." " Sparks is tall , lanky... like a cowboy."


I felt strange about this experience with the reader only because out of millions of names he picked that one and it really was overwheelming for what it's worth I thought I would share this.

[Firefly]

I've done psychic work for about 20 years now. There are some really tremendous success stories using psychics in criminal investigations but also some staggeringly well documented failures.

Psychics, unlike a mechanical fingerprint kit or other investigative device, bring their own prejudgments, beliefs, and speculations...based on their life experiences...to any investigation. The struggle for a psychic is to separate the pure unadulterated Information that comes from some Universal score sheet, and their own internal voices, imagination, and bad guesses.

I hadn't heard of Ray's case before a couple of days ago. I personally feel that famous cases are tougher to work on. With so many minds focused on them, you "cloud the waters" so to speak. In many ways a non-famous case that involves a man killing another in a bad neighborhood is easier to work. It's such a common event that it merits no special attention, and therefore isn't subjected to as much "clouding" that can occur when you have millions of people who are offering their mental noise to the event.

For example....let's suppose that a news program leads the majority of the population in the US to BELIEVE that Ray was killed while wearing a red shirt. This later turns out to be wrong, but the news media never corrects this belief among its viewers. A psychic could come along and say, "Hmmm...I see him wearing a red shirt." Why? Because hundreds of millions of people may hold this belief, and they have sent out the mental message, "Ray was wearing a red shirt." The psychic picks up on this wrong piece of information and gives a faulty description.

In the "psychic world" or "the other plane", there isn't much that separates an idea, a thought, or a belief from an actual event. Imagination and "reality" aren't vastly different "on the other side". It's easy for a psychic to report an imaginary image or impression as having actually occurred.

Now that I've CYA'd myself, :D I'll go ahead and report some impressions and beliefs I have about this case. Huge grains of salt should be taken at this point. There is no guarantee of correct or factual information involved here, and I make no promises. These are just the impressions that I bring...error is very possible.

Impressions (these all get jumbled together so I beg pardon beforehand):

1. Ray is dead. My condolences to the family, but I believe that he is not alive now.
2. Ray had a scar, birthmark or other blemish on his left leg. Probably on his calf.
3. If Ray has a brother, cousin or other relative he grew up with that was close, then he and this relative share a secret from boyhood about a family cat that neither told anyone else.
4. Ray was killed for two reasons. One of these reasons was a "local" reason and involved someone Ray knew--perhaps a co-worker, friend, or other close associate. The other reason--or perhaps "cause" would be a better term--related to something Ray was working on. Essentially, someone Ray knew personally was upset, jealous, or coveted his position. This person killed him--directly, and most likely, personally. But another element--someone else who had an interest in Ray's work--wanted Ray to stop. This second interest encouraged and supported the first person in their actions. This second person--perhaps group of people--were not directly involved in Ray's disappearance.
5. Ray is buried--deeply. It seems like this is a large ranch, farm or estate that belongs to someone Ray knew personally. Farm equipment like a backhoe, or earth mover was used to dig the hole. Possibly at the bottom of a lake that was being constructed at the time on the property.
6. There are 4 people that know of Ray's burial site. Two of them involved with the murder itself (I think a man and a woman)....But...here's the kicker...also two people who witnessed the burial, but don't know what they witnessed. The two people most directly involved in the murder are not aware that they were observed.
7. Ray was forced into a car at gun point--driven North East for a time.
8. Ray was taken to a place and beaten briefly, then eventually shot. In the left temple, I believe. (I get a pain in that area of my head...which is why I say that.)
9. His laptop contained some information that was of more interest to the second supporting person(s) than to the actual killers.
10. Ray had some sort of medical condition involving his lower back--kidney problems or chronic lower back pain.
11. Ray was set up. He was in essence lured to the place he was kidnapped from.
12. Could be wrong about this..this is a very hazy impression...but it seems like Ray purchased, borrowed, or acquired a handgun some weeks before his disappearance. I don't think he had it with him though but it would have been near the front door or garage door of his home--easy to pick up as he left the house.
13. :) Ray liked some sort of odd music...or so it seems anyway. (Hey, I just call 'em the way they come to me.)

I guess that's it for now. If anything else comes thru, I'll post it.

[puzzled]

Thank you so much for your thoughts! I think you have given us all somethings to consider and delve deeper into. I have thought from day one that Ray was set up and lured. I also have sadi fronm day one that Ray was murdered. So do you think that Ray knew all of those involved. Are there any names or intials that come to mind?

[Firefly]

Originally posted by puzzled
Thank you so much for your thoughts! I think you have given us all somethings to consider and delve deeper into. I have thought from day one that Ray was set up and lured. I also have sadi fronm day one that Ray was murdered. So do you think that Ray knew all of those involved. Are there any names or intials that come to mind? [/*]

There were some names that came to mind. None I'd probably repeat until I'm sure I'm getting solid information on both Ray and his disappearance.

I think that the two people involved in his disappearance were known to Ray. One of them...the male...was very well known to Ray...perhaps a co-worker or "friend". The people who were sort of behind the scenes were probably not personally known by Ray, but known more by research or other information.

The primary motivation on the part of the actual killers involved was to remove Ray as an obstruction to other plans. It almost seems like jealousy was involved. Jealousy about career, about a woman, maybe a combination of both.

The person hacked off at Ray may have volunteered his services to the people behind the scenes in return for some benefit of some kind. The people with the second motive are the ones I'm referring to here. But the primary motive came from the killer himself. He didn't like Ray...was jealous or envious..and saw Ray's removal as a way to benefit in some fashion. Be that with a woman, or financially, or both.

The people with the second motivation were concerned about some issue that Ray was involved with of a legal nature. He was either investigating them or knew of some deals these people had made. That's why the laptop was taken and destroyed...to cover up any research he may have been involved in.

Like I say...it's all a theory. Completely unprovable.

[puzzled]

Thanks for the reply and I apologize for not proofreading my message to you! I was in a hurry! I think you may be on to something. There are a number of different scenarios in which your theory is HIGHLY possible! I have been interested in this case since day one and have actually attempted to contact some psychics in the past. I am a firm believer in psychic abilities. My sister was very psychic. She used to do tarot cards readings. Many times they were VERY accurate. Up to and including the day, manner, cause, and circumstances of my son's death. I will NEVER forgive myself for letting him leave the house that night! It happened exactly as the cards said it would. My life changed forever. Although I will NEVER have another card reading again I am a believer mostly because of this. Also I had my palms read once by a patient of mine years ago and I think she saw my sons death because she froze and would not tell me what she saw. Some things she did tell me however did come true. For these reasons I will not dismiss anything you have to say. I hope and pray that you will stay with us until this case is resolved. I thank you from the top and bottom of my heart! You can send private messages if you feel uncomfortable about saying certain things on the board. My main reason for wanting this case solved is mostly for Ray's loved ones. They deserve closure and a place to go and pay their respects. I feel so badly for them. Ray represented my sister. She was not easy to deal with as she had many problems. He was so good and patient to her. I never met Ray but when my son passed away he called me. He expressed his sincere condolences and he said that he had lost his brother a year earlier...he was still hurting. Now his brother, Ray, my sister and of course my son are all in heaven. I am sure they are all rooting for us to solve this devastating case. I know my sister will not be at peace until it is solved. If she could she would move mountains to help find the answers. I do not give up because of these reasons. Rays killers are pathetic cowards who need to be taken down! Please stay and help us. I believe in you. Soon the boards will perk back up and you will hear from the entire motley crew I assure you! Tell me more...:D

[puzzled]

Me again. Do you think that Ray may have been covered up with concrete? Do you think that the 4 people involved are all still living? Do you think that Ray was buried on land owned by one of them? Or possibly on leased land? Do you think that any of the 4 have prior criminal records? Possibly someone Ray had previously prosecuted? Do you see any connection to the local prison? Do you think that Ray actually worked with one of the 4 as in a coworker type relationship? Was Ray hiding something from his girlfriend Patty....like the fact that this stuff was going on behind the scenes? Do you feel that Ray either had had an affair or so one night stand or that someone atleast thought that he had and therfore wanted revenge on him? Was there money involved? Did Ray drive the car to the SOS that day? Did anyone else drive his car? Was that really Ray that was seen at the SOS on Saturday also? My guess is no. Those who are resposible for Rays murder are they talking with anyone or intimidating or threatening the others involved? Does this lure and murder involve anyone involved with the courthouse in your opinion? Are theer more clues in the Susquehana river? Is Ray really all that far from the SOS? Sorry about all the questions. Please answer those that you can . I hope I have not overwhelmed you with questions. I just keep thinking of things. Are you familiar with the location and area where Ray was taken from? Why did'nt Ray yell out or try and attract attention? Or did he? I am sure that he knew that you should NEVER EVER let someone take you to a second location! I recently went to the SOS and I took many pictures.. I would be happy to send you copies if you would like....if it may help you. Did Ray know in advance that he might be in danger...or did he just go blindly?

[J. J. in Phila]

Firefly, you should read the "Murder scenario" thread. You might be channeling me. :)

Instead of a hole, I suggested an abandon well.

[sherrijean981]

Firefly gives a lot to think about, but it really just sounds like theories again.

My thoughts go to Firefly saying he is buried under a lake or body of water that was being built. How in the world would you find that info? There are many people putting in backyard ponds and swimming pools. There are new businesses being built that have to put in large pond area's for drainage purposes during storms.

Was the hole dug in Centre County, Union County or Clinton County? Was it at a construction site or a private home? Would it have been at the new Centre County Prison, when it was still being constructed? Would the 2 people who saw what was going on have been other construction workers or owners of the property?

I find the pychic field interesting and the fact that you are getting all this information put to you. I can't even remember half of the things I read and write anymore. :shrug:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Firefly, you should read the "Murder scenario" thread. You might be channeling me. :)

Instead of a hole, I suggested an abandon well. I think Firefly has already done a lot of reading. . . .;)
Welcome to Speculation Central, Firefly.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by puzzled
Me again. Do you think that Ray may have been covered up with concrete?

No.

Do you think that the 4 people involved are all still living?
Yes. I am beginning to get an idea of who they may have been and why they may have seen the burial. But I don't want to go too much into that because it might not be a good idea.

Do you think that Ray was buried on land owned by one of them?
Yes.

Or possibly on leased land? No.

Do you think that any of the 4 have prior criminal records?
Hmmm...interesting question...a qualified no...and the two witnesses seem to be very much innocent viewers unconnected to the crime.

Possibly someone Ray had previously prosecuted?
No.

Do you see any connection to the local prison?
No.

Do you think that Ray actually worked with one of the 4 as in a coworker type relationship?
Worked closely with him. A real sense of betrayal involved in this.

Was Ray hiding something from his girlfriend Patty....like the fact that this stuff was going on behind the scenes?
Yes, I do. I think there were probably two or three things Ray was hiding from her. So that's the girlfriends name...? Patty?

Do you feel that Ray either had had an affair or so one night stand or that someone atleast thought that he had and therfore wanted revenge on him?
Yes. More like an affair. He may have been thinking he was about to start one. But the woman who was offering this affair was setting him up.

Was there money involved?
Well..sort of...there was career advancement for at least one person, and possibly two...not necessarily into the position that Ray occupied as a job, but related in some way.

Did Ray drive the car to the SOS that day?
What is the SOS?

Did anyone else drive his car? No.

Was that really Ray that was seen at the SOS on Saturday also?
My guess is no.

I don't know what the SOS is.

Those who are resposible for Rays murder are they talking with anyone or intimidating or threatening the others involved?
No. But they would. More than threaten actually. The more consistently dangerous people involved are the people who encouraged the local people to commit the crime. They had a great deal of money involved. But no one involved wants to threaten anyone now for fear of being connected to the crime. Start warning people to stay away from the investigation and you'd make people wonder why you needed to warn people away.

Does this lure and murder involve anyone involved with the courthouse in your opinion?
Probably.

Are theer more clues in the Susquehana river? I don't think so. I think I read that was where Ray's laptop was found. The laptop was destroyed for a couple of reasons. Most importantly for the people involved in his abduction, they were worried that the laptop might have a day planner with notes on who Ray was meeting, or other similar info.

Is Ray really all that far from the SOS? Sorry about all the questions. Please answer those that you can . I hope I have not overwhelmed you with questions. I just keep thinking of things.

Are you familiar with the location and area where Ray was taken from?
Completely unfamiliar. I just heard about this two or three days ago. I know nothing about this other than a brief news article I read that I was sent as a link.

Why did'nt Ray yell out or try and attract attention? Or did he?
No, he didn't. He was alarmed at seeing the man show up, but he knew the person and wasn't aware of the danger immediately. He may have voluntarily left his vehicle to go to another vehicle because he knew the people. By the time he got to the other car though, he was very frightened. Something had been said that alarmed him greatly. He didn't yell out or resist because it wasn't overly busy and there weren't that many people around and he was afraid that he would be killed right there. Also, he was focused on trying to talk his way out of the situation. He was good talker apparently.

I am sure that he knew that you should NEVER EVER let someone take you to a second location!
There was some hope on the part of Ray that he could talk his way out of the situation. The people involved were known to him. He got more alarmed

I recently went to the SOS and I took many pictures.. I would be happy to send you copies if you would like....if it may help you.
Can you post them here? I am curious if the images I'm getting match the actual scene.

Did Ray know in advance that he might be in danger...or did he just go blindly?

Mostly this was blind. He had been aware he might be in some danger because he was working on something that he knew was pretty serious and he'd had some hints and bad feelings. Like I say, I think he had secured a firearm a few weeks before his abduction. Probably kept it with him for a few days, then dropped the habit of carrying it around.[/*]:

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Firefly, you should read the "Murder scenario" thread. You might be channeling me. :)

Instead of a hole, I suggested an abandon well. [/*]

Something of a common theme there.I had said he was buried deep under a lake or pond. If you think about it, a well has water and depth...a somewhat similar concept.

I may read the other thread sometime. Just not really that interested to be honest. If I find out I'm getting some good info coming thru then I'll get interested...but until then it's just a thang, you know?

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I think Firefly has already done a lot of reading. . . .;)
Welcome to Speculation Central, Firefly. [/*]

I've done a lot of reading. Next to nothing about this case though. :)

Speculation, imagination and other mental exercises might kick someone into a new avenue of investigation so I'm more than willing to lend my viewpoint. Obviously...:D

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Firefly


I've done a lot of reading. Next to nothing about this case though. :)

Speculation, imagination and other mental exercises might kick someone into a new avenue of investigation so I'm more than willing to lend my viewpoint. Obviously...:D [/*]

One of the ADA's working with Judge Grine saw Ray in the parking lot on the 15th, in a different car than his own. Was it Ray and can you see anything that would identify the car?

Judge Grine doesn't remember what day it was he saw him, was it the same day?

Was there anyone else near Ray when he left the court house on Thursday night? any idea of when he left his home on Friday?

I have other questions but due to the area and people involved I can not say on the forum. Are you seeing any area in particular away from the Street of Shops in Lewisburg?

Ray made his phone call to Patty while on Rt 192. Was there anyone following him or had he stopped/been stopped to talk to anyone on that road?

What kept him from going home at that time to take care of his dog? Was he with anyone at that time?

We have discussed the area of Penns Cave numerous times and the body of water involved there. Any connections to that area or a "blue ball"?

When you say Ray was taken from Lewisburg and went Northeast, was it to Milton? What type of area was he in when he was killed? Outside, inside?

I have been in the area of the Street of Shops on Water St, Rt 45 over the river bridge, and past the Auto Detail Shop at the intersection just past the bridge. I took numerous photo's in the area but the ones of the park, on the bridge and near the detail shop came out in purples, greens, yellows. Does that have any meaning?

Also there are 2 quarries in Lewisburg, one on Rt 192, one on Rt 45, with ponds located around them. His car was seen at the one on Rt 192. Any connection to the body of water you are seeing?

The man you are mentioning, was he working with Ray at the time of his disappearance? Did the woman he was with work with Ray directly? Are you getting any idea of what these people look like, that you could read some of the news articles with photo's in them, or the Centre County Government site, Pa attorney sites or any of a number of links put on here with photo's that might lead to who you are talking about?

Oh, had he met someone in Huntingdon on Thursday, April 14th, and what was he doing there? Who saw him?

I have so many more questions but don't know how to word them without stepping on someone. Please keep posting with new info. Is does make us think and think harder about Ray's last couple of days.

Is law enforcement going to find Ray or is someone going to come forward to bring Ray home to his family?

[Firefly]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


One of the ADA's working with Judge Grine saw Ray in the parking lot on the 15th, in a different car than his own. Was it Ray and can you see anything that would identify the car?

No idea.


Judge Grine doesn't remember what day it was he saw him, was it the same day?

Different day I think.

Was there anyone else near Ray when he left the court house on Thursday night? any idea of when he left his home on Friday?

No idea.

I have other questions but due to the area and people involved I can not say on the forum. Are you seeing any area in particular away from the Street of Shops in Lewisburg?

Ah...Street of Shops must equal to SOS...right? :) When I picture the scene in my mind, there are some trees, a park nearby, and a slight incline of the road that Ray walked down to a second car. It was close by. I think Ray recognized the driver but not the car. Rental car maybe? Borrowed car? Seems like it was a 4 door vehicle, dark colored.

Ray made his phone call to Patty while on Rt 192. Was there anyone following him or had he stopped/been stopped to talk to anyone on that road?

No I don't think so. I think he was heading to the appointed spot to meet but he wasn't being followed.

What kept him from going home at that time to take care of his dog? Was he with anyone at that time?

Hmmm...good question. I'll say no...I don't think anyone was with him. He may have felt too rushed to go home to take care of the dog. Out of curiosity...what type of dog? Big guard dog type? If so...when did he get it?

We have discussed the area of Penns Cave numerous times and the body of water involved there. Any connections to that area or a "blue ball"?

I don't think so...but sounds mysterious. :D

When you say Ray was taken from Lewisburg and went Northeast, was it to Milton? What type of area was he in when he was killed? Outside, inside?

I don't know what town he was taken from (Lewisburg?) or to...if indeed he was taken to a town. The area he was in was partially wooded, but with open fields around. Like ranch land, or farm land. This is private land. A relatively large place. 100 acres? 200 acres? Larger? It's hard to say. A big place is what comes thru.

He was killed inside a building. He may have been wearing handcuffs by the time he was killed. His arms were elevated...like he was attached to a hook or some metal support beam above him for a while. The people who took him left him alone for a long time. I think they had to go back to the place they abducted him to pick up a second vehicle or to retrieve something they had left. He was resisting quite a bit for a while. Lot of angry words...from both sides...Ray's side and their side. He was beaten for a period of time, then shot I think. Sometime in the late evening or very early morning. (Say from 10 at night to 1 in the morning)
He was transported outside after dark in a plastic tarp or large rug or something similar that wouldn't necessarily look like a body from a distance. I think he was transported to a lake or other similar type deal that was being constructed on the land. The lake, or whatever, had been completed but hadn't yet filled with water. Actually, if someone could check on something I'd appreciate it. It almost seems like his killers got worried for a time because there was little or no rain for a time after Ray died in that area, and the lake was not filling up fast enough to suit them. They worried about that a great deal for a few weeks. Because the body was buried in the bottom of this hole, but the hole wasn't filling up with water like it should have. Maybe there is a meteorogical report or something from that time about reduced or diminished rainfall.

I have been in the area of the Street of Shops on Water St, Rt 45 over the river bridge, and past the Auto Detail Shop at the intersection just past the bridge. I took numerous photo's in the area but the ones of the park, on the bridge and near the detail shop came out in purples, greens, yellows. Does that have any meaning?

Meaning: Your camera was made in the 1960's when ingesting psychodelic mushrooms was common. :D
Seriously though...no real meaning..but the park seems to have had some significance. Can you park a car at this park and see the front door of the shop that Ray and woman had gone into? Actually I don't remember reading if they went into a shop. But it seems like maybe their car was parked in this park...watching and waiting.

Also there are 2 quarries in Lewisburg, one on Rt 192, one on Rt 45, with ponds located around them. His car was seen at the one on Rt 192. Any connection to the body of water you are seeing?

Holy Hell! Quarries! Son of a--
Ok...I gotta back up here and explain a couple of things. I started doing a couple of murder investigation readings for some people last year. While reading for one case, I would frequently get information about the OTHER case. (Two separate cases). I kept bugging these people asking them about quarries...specifically a quarry that had a metal pier that ran about half way across the water and was very high above the water. I told one of these people that they would find a body 2/3rds of the way down that pier on the left side. Body parts very scattered but still there. They were like, "What quarry? We ain't got no stinkin' quarry. You're a nutcase!" And then some other language about my family heritage, or parental background...and something about a horse I rode in on....

But anyway...the point I'm driving at...in abysmally slow fashion...is that perhaps I had another little "time slip" there..wherein I read someone else's case...even before I knew about it. Which I know makes sense for a psychic but seems like nonsense to normal people.

So to answer your question...yes, I think its possible that quarries might have something to do with the body of water I'm seeing. In which case...I can tell you in general terms who the two people who saw the body being dumped were. Not specifically who they are..but I could tell you WHAT they were. Cause this bugged me for a while last year. Kept getting the image of that pier.

The quarry btw it looks like a stripped mine area to me. There is a pier going out half way across the quarry. Very steep sides to the quarry. Behind the quarry on a hill is a large building. Mining company building? Timber company? Something. Abandoned I think.

If it turns out to be the quarry, you can toss everything I said about the lake out the window.

The man you are mentioning, was he working with Ray at the time of his disappearance?

Yeah...I would think he was. This was someone really really close to him I believe. A real betrayed feel about this whole thing. Like Ray knew the person...maybe even liked them.





[/*]

[Firefly]

Did the woman he was with work with Ray directly?

I don't think so. She almost seems like.....a girlfriend of a friend, or a buddy's wife, or the significant other of someone he knew. He knew her I think. Probably liked her, but didn't work with her I don't think.

Are you getting any idea of what these people look like, that you could read some of the news articles with photo's in them, or the Centre County Government site, Pa attorney sites or any of a number of links put on here with photo's that might lead to who you are talking about?
I think I'd recognize the guy. Not his facial features...I don't really see those clearly..but if I saw a group of them walking I might. His gait was really distinctive. Sort of a rolling gait. Like a sailor. Oh...he may have been an ex-Navy man too. I was bugging people in those cases I was telling you about by asking them if THEIR suspect was a Navy man...which again led to them telling me I was way off. Maybe in the signals corps or something. Seems like this guy has a nickname like Sparks, or Sparky..something like that. Might be a nickname that people even now would associate with him.

Oh, had he met someone in Huntingdon on Thursday, April 14th, and what was he doing there? Who saw him?
No clue. Not ringing any bells.

I have so many more questions but don't know how to word them without stepping on someone. Please keep posting with new info. Is does make us think and think harder about Ray's last couple of days.

Is law enforcement going to find Ray or is someone going to come forward to bring Ray home to his family?

I think that there will be closure on the case. I'm not sure that a provable case will be brought. Not enough evidence I don't think linking the people involved. But there is a chance that enough truth will come out that everyone will know who the responsible parties are...and there might be punishment of a sort (loss of position, social stigma etc)

I'll add another couple of details to the whole thing now that seem to have come thru.
1) It seems to me like the people who took Ray had to come back for a second car or other items. A real Scooby Doo "return to the scene of the crime" thing. They left Ray at the location they took him to probably handcuffed to an iron bar.
2) I think the police found something at the scene of the abduction that they aren't releasing to the public. A little detail they wanted to keep for themselves. Maybe a blood drop or article of clothing that they found at the scene they linked to Ray. Maybe his watch or ring or some other item. Something like that it seems.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Firefly
I've done a lot of reading. Next to nothing about this case though. Speculation, imagination and other mental exercises might kick someone into a new avenue of investigation so I'm more than willing to lend my viewpoint. Obviously... Okeedokee then...cannot wait for the "sounds like Bertha or Martha...something like that" chapter.

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Okeedokee then...cannot wait for the "sounds like Bertha or Martha...something like that" chapter. [/*]

how about "Fatty or Matty" ??

that's what I'm getting visions of... but my antennae maybe a little warped. LOL

:biggrin:

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Firefly
[/*]
"Meaning: Your camera was made in the 1960's when ingesting psychodelic mushrooms was common.
Seriously though...no real meaning..but the park seems to have had some significance. Can you park a car at this park and see the front door of the shop that Ray and woman had gone into? Actually I don't remember reading if they went into a shop. But it seems like maybe their car was parked in this park...watching and waiting."
Quote

Quote:
"Holy Hell! Quarries! Son of a--
Ok...I gotta back up here and explain a couple of things. I started doing a couple of murder investigation readings for some people last year. While reading for one case, I would frequently get information about the OTHER case. (Two separate cases). I kept bugging these people asking them about quarries...specifically a quarry that had a metal pier that ran about half way across the water and was very high above the water. I told one of these people that they would find a body 2/3rds of the way down that pier on the left side. Body parts very scattered but still there. They were like, "What quarry? We ain't got no stinkin' quarry. You're a nutcase!" And then some other language about my family heritage, or parental background...and something about a horse I rode in on....

But anyway...the point I'm driving at...in abysmally slow fashion...is that perhaps I had another little "time slip" there..wherein I read someone else's case...even before I knew about it. Which I know makes sense for a psychic but seems like nonsense to normal people.

So to answer your question...yes, I think its possible that quarries might have something to do with the body of water I'm seeing. In which case...I can tell you in general terms who the two people who saw the body being dumped were. Not specifically who they are..but I could tell you WHAT they were. Cause this bugged me for a while last year. Kept getting the image of that pier."
Quote

Firefly,
No, camera is a couple years old. Never did drugs so don't know about that but I feel sorry for anyone who did and saw these colors over everything.

There is a parking area behind the SOS that has an incline down to it, but faces the back door and the river. There is a parking area directly across from the SOS where customer's park and another one across from it on the right. There is parking up and down the street. The park is beside the SOS with a railroad bed between them.

Concerning the quarries, I don't know what they look like inside, but you can check them out on Mapquest. When you say looks like it strip mined, there is one in Pleasant Gap that looks very stripped, but have never looked into them. There is one in the Aaronsburg area, Rt 45 set way back from the road and I have no idea even how to get to it. There is the one On Rt 192 only a couple miles from the SOS. Then the one on Rt 45 just over the bridge from Lewisburg. There is also an abandoned mine in Bellefonte where Ray is from. It is closed to the public but young people used to go there to swim (someone died there) and rock climbing. Don't know if there is a pier over it either. Those are just ones I know about. Could be more. The one in Aaronsburg is in the middle of farm land. Could be any kind of buildings behind it or in front of it.

JJ are you aware of anymore? You have been in contact with Matt Rickard, the detective working the case. Has he had any of the quarries re-checked?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
how about "Fatty or Matty" ??

that's what I'm getting visions of... but my antennae maybe a little warped. LOL Now, now. Let's offer Firefly a fig leaf...to cover his/her neon butt. At least he/she did not adhere to the "shallow grave...I see trees and water" standard psychic tripe.

Rough crowd, eh Firefly?

[Serendipitous1]

Oh, I forgot already...Firefly does see trees and water. Sorry.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981

JJ are you aware of anymore? You have been in contact with Matt Rickard, the detective working the case. Has he had any of the quarries re-checked? [/*]

None that I've aware of. There are numerous places, however, as the entire area is limestone. A lot of sinkholes.

Most of those are not filled with water all year, however.

I friend who said, "He's probably down a mineshaft." I said, "No, but possibly a well. The area doesn't have any coal." (I had a geography course when I was at Penn State. :) )

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Oh, I forgot already...Firefly does see trees and water. Sorry. [/*]

I see dust...............

on Gricar's case files

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
I see dust...............on Gricar's case files Not just yet, my little Texas flower. The "psychics" may outnumber us, but there is a real move afoot...perhaps Ray Gricar's last stand. Stay tuned.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Not just yet, my little Texas flower. The "psychics" may outnumber us, but there is a real move afoot...perhaps Ray Gricar's last stand. Stay tuned. [/*]

I have a feeling the pilot won't even be aired, this season at least.

Note the irony. ;)

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I have a feeling the pilot won't even be aired, this season at least. Note the irony. ;) My psychic connections tell me there will be an airing soon, with a rerun next year.

[Politigal]

so Gricar flew the coop?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
so Gricar flew the coop? ???

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
??? [/*]

I thought that's what JJ was alluding to...

:shrug:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Politigal
I thought that's what JJ was alluding to... That seems to be J.J.'s pet theory. And who can say he is wrong? But I am concentrating my "psychic" energy against the gutless cowards, this year...and next if need be, in the hope of finding out.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
That seems to be J.J.'s pet theory. And who can say he is wrong? But I am concentrating my "psychic" energy against the gutless cowards, this year...and next if need be, in the hope of finding out. [/*]

I don't have ANY theory that is above 50% likely in my own mind. I do think that walkaway can either be most likely ruled in or ruled out, if LE checks for evidence of it. If the evidence is there, walkaway becomes more likely; if the evidence isn't there, walkaway becomes less likely. It would a rather substantial swing in either direction, depending on what was found (or wasn't found).

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I don't have ANY theory that is above 50% likely in my own mind. I do think that walkaway can either be most likely ruled in or ruled out, if LE checks for evidence of it. If the evidence is there, walkaway becomes more likely; if the evidence isn't there, walkaway becomes less likely. It would a rather substantial swing in either direction, depending on what was found (or wasn't found). Duly noted. Can I have an Amen on that?

[J. J. in Phila]

S1, it comes down to this. So long as walkaway is on the table, even reasonably likely, you can't say that this was murder (or suicide).

If RFG walked away, either doing it on his own or with help, there would be evidence in most cases. If that evidence is present, RFG probably walked away. If that evidence is not present, RFG probably did not walk away.

Because of the lack of a body, suicide is unlikely. If the possibility of walkaway is ruled out, both LE and the general public will need to focus on murder. A probable murder case will get more attention a possible one. (And, frankly, so will a brilliantly executed walkaway case.)

[Politigal]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
That seems to be J.J.'s pet theory. And who can say he is wrong? But I am concentrating my "psychic" energy against the gutless cowards, this year...and next if need be, in the hope of finding out. [/*]

I definitely think focusing on walk-a-way is a waste of time.

Much like what law enforcement did the past few yrs.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


I definitely think focusing on walk-a-way is a waste of time.



I glad to know that you consider looking for evidence is a "waste of time."


Much like what law enforcement did the past few yrs. [/*]

Actually, from everything I've heard, they have not (and some of it might overlap into murder).

[Serendipitous1]

I can honestly say I do not have a particularly persuasive argument about what happened to Ray Gricar (I am not psychic). But I have never been as concerned with what actually happened to him as I have been that whatever happened to him becomes known. There is a price to be paid in not knowing. And it extends to all of us.

A large part of what I do, off the boards at least, is problem solving. I look at this case and I see the local mismanagement. But what I see as the number one impediment to a solution is Tom Corbett.

Bob Buehner has Corbett and Madeira pegged correctly...there is no question in my mind. I do not know why they failed Ray Gricar, but they have. And the investigation has suffered mightily because of it.

That is absolutely unacceptable. And "pansy DAs in suits" will not make it other than what it is.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks




The absence of a dead body eliminates suicide and the absence of a live body eliminates walkaway, IMO.


The failure to look for the traces a live body does not equal the absence of a live body.

As for suicide, there is still a possibility that the body is in the river. I'd give the odds that the body would be in the river at about 30%, with the odds of suicide at 14%. I'll lower both in a few months, if nothing new pops up.


The most likely reason no body has been found, dead or alive, is foul play and someone hid the body.
JMO [/*]

Two problems.

First, dead bodies don't move even if hidden. Live bodies can.

Second, hidden things don't stay hidden. The further the time goes, up to a point, the less likelihood that the body was hidden someplace, especially quickly.

[puzzled]

Thank you so much for your responses Firefly! I am glad you discovered what SOS stands for. I would love to upload the photo's however ever since I moved I have had a software problem with my scanner and can not do anything on it. YIKES! I am one of those people that has trouble with a crock pot! Let's just say I am technologically challenged! HA! Sherrijean if you can load them on to the site I will mail them out to you!
You just described the SOS very well. Firefly there were cigarette butts and a VHS exercies tape in a bag found at the scene. The butts were near where Ray's car door was ( I believe) and the tape was found near the rear tire. These are the things that we know of. The tape was picked up by the postman and later turned over to police. Ray's car or one just like it was seen coming out of one of the local quarries that day.
Don't listen to the sniping of some of the board members I think many of us sometimes become frustrated and a bit jaded.
My hubby and I are leaving for London next weekend. I am not keen on flying. Hopefully you don't see anything bad for us. I love your sense of humor. The others will come around soon. We need you desperately....please stay and help. When oh when JJ are you going to give up on the walkaway thing?? This is for you...:punch:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Failure to look for live traces? Has he contacted his family, friends, bank, social security office, retirement fund? Has any one who knows him seen or heard anything from him? IF none of them have, as we have been told, that IS evidence which escalates the likelihood of foul play.


None of that has anything to do with if he walked away.


The most likely reason there are no live traces of him now nor has there been since the day of disappearance is NOT because he is hiding somewhere; NOT because he squirreled away funds to walk away; NOT because he never wanted to see or talk to anyone he has ever known in his life. The more days, hours, minutes go by with nary a word from him, the more likely it is that he was the victim of 'someone'. AND the more telling it is that whomever hid him, had time to plan.


Where can you possibly get that? The main reason there are no live traces of RFG were found is because no one looked. In some cases, it could have been nearly a year before the evidence would surface.

I like how say that LE should not be looking for evidence.


A full investigation is in order, unless by some miracle your second statement, 'hidden things don't stay hidden', comes to light. Tell that to Jimma Hoffa. I bet he won't buy into it either.
JMO [/*]

It's possible, but hugely difficult, for a body to stay hidden; it is much more difficult to hide a body in 2005 than it was in 1975. Techniques and technology are better.

The thing is, in both 1975 and 2005, you have to look for evidence. That didn't happen in RFG's case; it still can and it should.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by puzzled

Ray's car or one just like it was seen coming out of one of the local quarries that day.

REALLY?! Well well well....that is interesting. So Ray's car was not at the scene of his abduction? At the store I mean?

Don't listen to the sniping of some of the board members I think many of us sometimes become frustrated and a bit jaded.

I live in the South. The heart of the Bible Belt. I've been beaten up, threatened, and screamed at for my beliefs for as long as I can remember. I don't think a few comments on here are going to bother me much. :D Thank you for your kindness though.

My hubby and I are leaving for London next weekend. I am not keen on flying. Hopefully you don't see anything bad for us.

Nope. I don't see anything bad for ya related to your trip. Unless you count English cuisine..which, frankly, that's bad enough!
Oh...If a war starts overseas though while you're gone, come home with some haste.

I love your sense of humor.
*laugh*...thank you for that also. It's an acquired taste for most people. Bitter to many but a joy to some.

The others will come around soon.

Really? Cause the tarot cards say "Stubborn Sticks In Mud"...*laugh*


We need you desperately....please stay and help.

I don't think you need me "desperately". But I'll hang around and see if anything starts to happen. Funny thing...when I start looking at a case...stuff often starts to happen. One of the last ones I worked on had no movement for 5 years..then they arrested the suspect within a short time after me and a family friend started sending info to a relative. Some of the images I got there might have been images for this case with Ray...(or not).

[/*]

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
I can honestly say I do not have a particularly persuasive argument about what happened to Ray Gricar (I am not psychic). But I have never been as concerned with what actually happened to him as I have been that whatever happened to him becomes known. There is a price to be paid in not knowing. And it extends to all of us.

Collective Mind is one way this is referred to. What happens to one person extends to all people.

A large part of what I do, off the boards at least, is problem solving. I look at this case and I see the local mismanagement. But what I see as the number one impediment to a solution is Tom Corbett.

Who is Tom Corbett if you don't mind my asking?


[/*]

[Politigal]

Originally posted by logicworks




The absence of a dead body eliminates suicide and the absence of a live body eliminates walkaway, IMO.
The most likely reason no body has been found, dead or alive, is foul play and someone hid the body.
JMO [/*]

I agree 100%

[tld]

has anyone thought about gang related murder... alot of new gangs in the area trying to one up each other

[J. J. in Phila]

Firefly, I have some problems with psychics, because a lot of the information can be ferreted out through traditional means.

Here is an example:


J. J. in Phila
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5543


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Politigal


Are you with the National Enquirer or something?

geez [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No, but doing my impersonation of The Amazing Criswell, I predict that a little (though not much) more sunlight may shine on this case, on the day that the dawn comes from the west.

Right now, perhaps only four to five people will understand that message (and three to four of those don't post). Put it might help prove a point, in the future.



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02-25-2008 10:01 PM



J. J. in Phila
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5543


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tonyGricar
Pretty amusing stuff, although the sunlight is more akin to silly putty. It's going to be quite a streeeeeetch.

Should be an article tomorrow. [/*]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You are one of the five, but you did prove my point.

I'm thinking of a potential message in a bottle. It's so obscure, to whom would be directed to, and potentially from whom.

This alone won't move my numbers.

The Wreck of the Titan was mentioned, and you will see how ironic that is.

As I said, a little light, but not a lot.


Last edited by J. J. in Phila on 02-25-2008 at 11:10 PM

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02-25-2008 11:06 PM


Now, these references are to the book 20/20 Vision, which has an oblique to the RFG case, but the connection hadn't been published. I found out, knew it was going to come out, and decided that I would show how a someone could send a message by leaving clues that only make sense to a very few people.

I could very easily have dressed this up as a psychic vision and possibly convinced half the board that I have mystical powers.

I had posted the license plate number of the Mini Cooper RFG was driving, and was questioned about my "inside information," a favorite charge of one of our former posters. It was published months before but she, the poster, hadn't read it. Most everyone else here forgot it, and didn't jump in and say **Oh, it was the CDT Q & A.** I could have easily used that to proclaim my grand psychic ability.

Much of your original vision corresponds to a scenario I posted more than a year ago. Did I use my grand psychic abilities to construct it? No, I just looked for a coherent scenario which matched most of the evidence and witness reports.

Ton Corbett, BTW, is the elected Attorney General of Pennsylvania.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Politigal


I agree 100% [/*]

Why am I not surpised that the person who doesn't want to look to see if evidence exists agrees 100%. :rolleyes:

[puzzled]

JJ I can honestly say...You don't get it. I am not picking on you but you need to think outside the box. You are so wrapped up in this case and so stuck in your thoughts that you are not open minded .........as you should be.
Thanks firefly for the info! I feel much better about my trip now. The Attorney General Tom Corbett and Ray were not crazy about one another. The Man who was elected DA to replace Ray is named Michael Madeira. He used to work for the Attorney General. Neither one of them have done a darn thing to try and solve this case. MM pays lip service to the family and is very arrogant. Rays live in girlfriend Patty Fornicola still works at the courthouse and so has to see MM's face everyday. I really don't know how she does it. MM used to post on this board under the name of Billy Wahoo. He said we would all choke on our mouses if we knew who we were talking to. Finally he left the boards. Many jobs in both the courthouse and the local police department changed after Ray was abducted. The AG has accepted campaign money from a guy named Louis Denaples. LD owns a bunch of casinos at the at the Poconos and he owns landfills throughout PA. He has ties to the mob. Recently his Priest was indicted. TC refuses to give back the dirty money. This may or may not have anything to do with it. Does the name James Bryant mean anything to you?? I heard about the food in London...maybe I will lose a few pounds while there...that would be great!:D Also the AG and Ray were involved in a big drug bust just prior to Ray going missing. Ray did not look happy in the photo in the paper. Also the big guy in the bust is named Taji Verbal Lee...he made a comment about how MM really knows where to kick the dirt. This was in the paper.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled
JJ I can honestly say...You don't get it. I am not picking on you but you need to think outside the box. You are so wrapped up in this case and so stuck in your thoughts that you are not open minded .........as you should be.


I'm quite open minded, but psychic visions or impressions are not evidence. Also, nearly every aspect being discussed can be found through normal (as opposed to paranormal) means.

[puzzled]

We all realize that impressions are not evidence. That is not to say that impressions could not somehow lead us to evidence and or to solving this case. Have a great weekend everyone!

[sherrijean981]

Have a wonderful time on your trip! And enjoy the food!

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Firefly, I have some problems with psychics, because a lot of the information can be ferreted out through traditional means.

I agree totally. Psychic guesses...because that's what they are...should NEVER hold more validity than standard investigation. One detective I spoke with on another case said that he used psychics to redirect his investigation when it hit a stone wall. "What the hell?...I'm out of leads otherwise" was the way he expressed it. The last person to advocate listening to a psychic at the expense of gathering evidence in a traditional fashion is me.

Besides which...how would you introduce psychic evidence at trial? "Hi. I'm Silvia Brown" *points a finger at the defendant* "He did it. I saw it in a vision." How is that different than a good ole fashion witch burning? We listen to some woman say she just KNOWS the guy did it? That ain't a fair trial.

No, psychics need to be used to find evidence (new evidence) and to fill in blanks that traditional investigation missed. But finding tangible proof...bloodstains, DNA evidence, the murder weapon...these should be the end goal of psychics in criminal investigations.



I could very easily have dressed this up as a psychic vision and possibly convinced half the board that I have mystical powers.

Yeah, you could. No offense but you'd be a real jerk to do so. Although many people would argue the point (James Randi, professional skeptic, comes to mind) there have been documented cases from countless people throughout history that show that SOMETHING is going on behind the scenes of what we naively call "reality". Some people...myself perhaps...seem to have a way of gathering information from these non-typical sources.

In my case, I'm not researching and coming here to spout a story. I was approached on another board...a psychic chat room...by someone from this board. My comments to them seemed relevant and their comments intrigued me enough to come look and post some comments here. Any claims I make about being psychic can be believed, dismissed, followed or ignored as you see fit. But...give me some time...I think some things will start moving soon. I'm usually a Witness to psychic events. If something catches my interest, it usually means big things are about to happen. So maybe the case is about to heat up. Who knows?

Much of your original vision corresponds to a scenario I posted more than a year ago. Did I use my grand psychic abilities to construct it? No, I just looked for a coherent scenario which matched most of the evidence and witness reports.

Really? Where is this scenario of yours posted at? I'd like to look at it. You have grand psychic abilities? If that's true...what's the secret handshake? :D If you're in the club, you gotta know the secret handshake!
Actually, when I went back in this Unexplained Phenom thread, which is the only thread I've looked at for Ray's case, the person who impressed me was an earlier psychic, Carla Baron. If you need to accuse me of lifting someone else's work, please say it was hers :D because she had almost the same description of events as I had pictured. We don't agree on every point...but the similarities were remarkable when I read what she had said.
Particularly chilling to me was when she described the abductor leaning down in the window of the car. I had the exact same impression. That the person physically leaned into Ray's driver side window.
I disagree with her statements that "a criminal enterprise" was following Ray. I believe there was a group of people. I don't believe they were following him, nor did they need to. They already had someone close to Ray. That's my opinion.
I also didn't agree with her when she said the abduction was a spur of the moment thing. This seemed very well planned to me...but with amateurish highlights, you might say. There were some errors on the part of the people...they forgot some things...they had to return to the scene...but overall they carried it off.
I agree with Ms Baron that two people were at the kidnapping. One of those people was a woman...likely the same woman Ray was seen with. I believe she was a lure to get Ray to that location. The man was her boyfriend, husband, or love interest..whatever...and Ray I think knew that. Which is why I don't agree that Ray felt immediately threatened. I think the person leaned in the car, spoke to his "girl" and then convinced Ray to come with him...without showing a weapon. Probably something along the lines of "We need to talk. Can you come over here?" Ray knows this person...maybe is a friend or co worker...and gets out...with the intention of explaining why he is with this person's girl. They walk toward the person's car (it was a dark colored car...not tan as Ms. Baron said..it was 4 door though) and then the guy shows him a gun and tells him get in. The woman gets out of Ray's car and comes to the other car. Ray is steady talking trying to convince the guy with a gun that its all a mistake...a misunderstanding. Ray doesn't realize at that point that its all been a set up. That's my scenario. Don't know if it matches any facts or other witness testimony.

Another point I agree with Ms. Baron on is that Ray's hands were secured. I think metal handcuffs were used though. Plastic handcuffs can be cut or worn through, and these people weren't taking any chances. Ray was forced to lay down in the back seat. The woman drove. The guy with the gun sat in the front seat and kept looking at Ray in the back seat. The woman had activated the child proof locks on the back doors of the car so Ray could not jump out.

Ms. Baron says a large warehouse is where they took him. Close enough to what I saw too. But it's not a warehouse exactly...more like a storage shop on a farm or ranch. If she's right about railroad tracks and the highway, then it should be a relatively easy method to pinpoint a limited number of buildings to check.

And she also agrees that they buried the body near where they killed him so they could keep an eye on it. I'll expand the possible reasons for burying him close. For one, it meant less travel time with a dead body. A dead body on the road in front of your house could be explained as having got there because someone dumped it on your doorstep. A dead body in the trunk of your car is a lot harder to explain. "Hey...I don't know how he got here officer" probably won't cut it. They didn't want to travel with it.

She says his body is 5 to 15 minutes away. I think it's a little further away. Not much...but a little. 20-25 minutes away...to the Northeast. Probably buried on land that belongs to someone Ray knew, or ontheir next door neighbors land.

Like I say...accuse me of stealing her work. :D It's much closer to what I think happened. Not 100%, but closer.


Ton Corbett, BTW, is the elected Attorney General of Pennsylvania.

Thank you for the information. How is he connected to this case? Is he not launching a special investigation or something? Is that the problem you see with him?



[/*]

[Firefly]

Originally posted by puzzled
JJ I can honestly say...You don't get it. I am not picking on you but you need to think outside the box. You are so wrapped up in this case and so stuck in your thoughts that you are not open minded .........as you should be.
Thanks firefly for the info! I feel much better about my trip now. The Attorney General Tom Corbett and Ray were not crazy about one another. The Man who was elected DA to replace Ray is named Michael Madeira. He used to work for the Attorney General. Neither one of them have done a darn thing to try and solve this case. MM pays lip service to the family and is very arrogant. Rays live in girlfriend Patty Fornicola still works at the courthouse and so has to see MM's face everyday. I really don't know how she does it. MM used to post on this board under the name of Billy Wahoo. He said we would all choke on our mouses if we knew who we were talking to. Finally he left the boards. Many jobs in both the courthouse and the local police department changed after Ray was abducted. The AG has accepted campaign money from a guy named Louis Denaples. LD owns a bunch of casinos at the at the Poconos and he owns landfills throughout PA. He has ties to the mob. Recently his Priest was indicted. TC refuses to give back the dirty money. This may or may not have anything to do with it. Does the name James Bryant mean anything to you?? I heard about the food in London...maybe I will lose a few pounds while there...that would be great!:D Also the AG and Ray were involved in a big drug bust just prior to Ray going missing. Ray did not look happy in the photo in the paper. Also the big guy in the bust is named Taji Verbal Lee...he made a comment about how MM really knows where to kick the dirt. This was in the paper. [/*]

Wow. Thanks for the information. A lot of it seems to match some things that seemed to come through.

I'm reminded of the movie "JFK" when Donald Sutherland's character says, "Politics is power."

[J. J. in Phila]

Firefly:



No, psychics need to be used to find evidence (new evidence) and to fill in blanks that traditional investigation missed. But finding tangible proof...bloodstains, DNA evidence, the murder weapon...these should be the end goal of psychics in criminal investigations.


So far, psychics have been a failure. You'll forgive my skepticism, but I like results.

Also note that most of the "new" evidence give by psychics in this case isn't new. What was new wasn't accurate.

There can be postdiction, not prediction.


Yeah, you could. No offense but you'd be a real jerk to do so. Although many people would argue the point (James Randi, professional skeptic, comes to mind) there have been documented cases from countless people throughout history that show that SOMETHING is going on behind the scenes of what we naively call "reality".


Note that I don't do that (except for joking references I've posted, which would be clear the next day). :) I generally use published sources, and occasionally I get do talk to people in the area. Psychics can do the same thing.

You will find two scenarios, both plausible and both contradictory, on this site, though may have to go back. One is the "walkaway scenario" and one is "murder scenario." You are free to read both. Right now, I think that there is a 58% chance that RFG was not murdered and a 57% chance that RFG did not walk away.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila <Snips>
So far, psychics have been a failure. You'll forgive my skepticism, but I like results.

Right now, I think that there is a 58% chance that RFG was not murdered and a 57% chance that RFG did not walk away. Is that some kind of new math, J. J.?

There have been dozens of "psychics" who have sent their visions to LE or TG on this case. As you have pointed out, they have all (including CB) apparently failed to produce even one substantiated lead. And CB had access to LE and the family, and directed a private cadaver-dog search...the things I could tell you about CB.

Anyway, Firefly's entrance on these threads is a classic example...start with the disclaimer, set the hook with seemingly new information (does not matter if it is not or cannot be verified), and reel in the suckers...as though everything which follows must necessarily be true. I have no problem if someone wants to be entertained by "psychic" shenanigans. But to me, sticking up the "psychic shingle", even for this forum, is a lame and lazy excuse for peddling pure speculation.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Is that some kind of new math, J. J.?



No, if I did my math right. 42% likelihood of murder, 43% chance of walkaway, 14% chance of suicide, 1% of something else.

[Cloudbuster]

I just got back today from a vacation and boy Im SO glad that Firefly has joined us!!!!:rose: Welcome to the board FF. I am still in total Awe how you knew the nickname I have struggled with. I am still catching up on your posts. Im amazed at some of it and I do hope that someone looks into it. We are here to try to help figure out what happened to Ray. Im amazed at how you took a challenge on the psychic chat room and knew a nickname that I agonized about. Im going back to read all your posts. If people are not interested in a intution board they shouldn't read it. I welcome any help from you and appreciate it!!! Out of thousands of male names and female you knew which name and for that I do believe in you!!!:)

[Serendipitous1]

Just out of curiosity here, Cloudbuster...nothing personal. But in your chat room encounter.......

"I asked a question in the room 'If someone in here is a true psychic you could tell me the name my ghost said that killed him?' The challenge was on. The responder said 'It's a "S " name...Spider? Spike? Something like that'."......

what username did you use, and did you first mention Gricar, or this forum, or your username here, or the name of this thread?

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Just out of curiosity here, Cloudbuster...nothing personal. But in your chat room encounter.......

"I asked a question in the room 'If someone in here is a true psychic you could tell me the name my ghost said that killed him?' The challenge was on. The responder said 'It's a "S " name...Spider? Spike? Something like that'."......

what username did you use, and did you first mention Gricar, or this forum, or your username here, or the name of this thread? [/*]

S1 I never mentioned this forum until after I made that post on here. I told FF where we are located AFTER I posted about him on here. I think he is a asset. We were not talking long enough for him to just go to any of my posts. I have many all over and he or she would have needed time to find all that out which would take many hours to accomplish that, plus he didn't know where to look. S1 I printed it out I will mail you a copy if you like. Seriously S1? I didn't know FF was going to come on here. Im glad he or she has. If it helps generate possibilites then that's a asset. He or she has not claimed to be 100 percent correct, but is sharing what he or she has picked up on. I do hope he or she stays and would feel welcome too.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I just got back today from a vacation and boy Im SO glad that Firefly has joined us!!!!:rose: Welcome to the board FF. I am still in total Awe how you knew the nickname I have struggled with. I am still catching up on your posts. Im amazed at some of it and I do hope that someone looks into it. We are here to try to help figure out what happened to Ray. Im amazed at how you took a challenge on the psychic chat room and knew a nickname that I agonized about. Im going back to read all your posts. If people are not interested in a intution board they shouldn't read it. I welcome any help from you and appreciate it!!! Out of thousands of male names and female you knew which name and for that I do believe in you!!!:) [/*]

But no pressure, right? :D

[Cloudbuster]

Firfly I love your sense of humor lol. Of course there is no preasure. I am blown away by you!!!! Welcome aboard!:rose:

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster <Snip>
S1 I never mentioned this forum until after I made that post on here. I told FF where we are located AFTER I posted about him on here. What username did you use in the chat room, and did you first mention Gricar before asking your question?

No pressure.

[Cloudbuster]

I NEVER mentioned Gricar first. I do have a copy of the board chat that evening and i really can mail it.:)

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I NEVER mentioned Gricar first. I do have a copy of the board chat that evening and i really can mail it.:) You said: "I asked a question in the room "If someone in here is a true psychic you could tell me the name my ghost said that killed him", emphasis added. So I was curious to understand how you posed (or preceded) your question, when him was otherwise undefined.

No pressure.

[Cloudbuster]

Exactly what I posted is how I asked the question. I worked from the print out to post the findings the way Firefly said it. I didn't say RG till after the fact that FF gave me that name and even said he thought it to be a nickname. Ray's name was not part of the question at all. Ray's name only came out toward the end of our conversation. S1 I would have known not to say the name first. Im not that stupid.:read:

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Just out of curiosity here, Cloudbuster...nothing personal. But in your chat room encounter.......

"I asked a question in the room 'If someone in here is a true psychic you could tell me the name my ghost said that killed him?' The challenge was on. The responder said 'It's a "S " name...Spider? Spike? Something like that'."......

what username did you use, and did you first mention Gricar, or this forum, or your username here, or the name of this thread? [/*]

She never mentioned anything about Gricar. She said that she had a ghost problem. I asked, "what kind of ghost problem?" She said she had some audio voice recordings but she couldn't make out was being said.

So I contacted my Guides (what my friends refer to as "making a funny face and staring at the ceiling"...lamebrains...absolutely no concept of what it takes to access Spiritual Guidance in a crowded room of people carrying on a party with loud music....*deep breath*..........but I digress. :D )

So I contacted my Guides (called the spirits if you like) ask them what words this chick is hearing on her audio recording...and make it snappy on the reply Spirit Boys! (Informal relations with Guides is the way to keep sanity. Pretension is the way to madness in this business. Don't believe your own hype...we're only human...etc etc)

They contact someone who knows...I'm assuming its Ray's ghost or some other Guide that worked with Ray while he was alive. Don't know...didn't ask..and don't care.

They come back with..."It's an S name. Hold on...we'll thumb through the file." (Which actually means they will set their vibration to the specific information...but they have to use language *I* can relate to...see how this works?) I wait a couple of minutes. Cloud asks again..."Can you be more specific?" I say, "Sparks."
Cloud goes nuts. She tells me this is the greatest thing since sliced bread...that I'm the real deal...that she's been questioning this for quite a while now. Etc etc....

I tell her I'm happy to help (which is true). She tells me she is excited (after 20 years doing this its hard for me to get excited) and that she's blown away by this.

I must admit...ten, fifteen years ago...if the shoe had been on the other foot and I called Sylvia Brown out of the blue and she told me my shoe size, my Dad's name, and who I took to the prom...I'd have probably freaked out too. There were other people who witnessed this who were online at the time...and Cloud is reporting things truthfully.

I'd tell you the name of the other forum and you could come talk with some people over there about me. There's about ten or twenty other people on the board that know me and what I do on a regular basis over there...so this isn't exactly a new experience. But I'm not sure I want you yay-hoos (pronounced yay-hoos) coming over there and bugging people. Not to mention the fact that I'm not a card carrying member of their "official psychics" over there. I'm an "amateur"...which means that they don't have me on their site making money. (If you ask any psychic site in the world who has the best psychics..it's their site. Everyone else is full of it...according to them.) And they have a rule against doing "non-approved readings" except at certain times. I'm not sure I did it at an approved time. :D

But hey...the Spirit moved me...and there is some rider in the rules about "urgent spirit communications" being okay for any time. I might have to explain myself to the Admin..but it wouldn't be the first time.

So if Cloud wants to tell you the name of the forum she went to...I have no objections.

You gotta understand. This is more about being a mouth piece for Guides and Spirits and Dead Folk on the other side. In other words...a glorified telephone service. With me playing the part of a real faulty AT&T line....in a deep well....in remotest Alaska...on a party line that has ten thousand other people all yelling at the same time. It's imperfect...there are other psychics who do it better...I'm still learning...and I'm not the most reverent psychic that's out there, which isn't really conducive to the "Work".
Example: I'm at the psychic conference about to do a channeling session down in Gulfport Mississippi. There are three other psychics who've gone on the "speaking stone" before me. You are allowed to "invoke" spirits by prayer. So the other psychics are like, "Invocation: I invite the Forces of Light to act through me and upon the people gathered here for the betterment of our Community, for the Enlightenment of all Peoples, and the furtherance of a better understanding of our role with the Creator." The others said things similar to this. The crowd sighs, relaxes. Suddenly sprouts slight smiles of contented bliss.
"Invocation: Blah Blah"
"Invocation: Blah Blah"
Then it was my turn. My invocation was, "Invocation: If you ******* have anything to tell these people, let's get this ***** over with...these lights are hot and I'm sweating like a pig!" :D
So I ain't the most reverent. But we had a good session that night.

Cloud has so far reported everything that happened EXACTLY as it happened.

[Serendipitous1]

And as to the final part of my original question, what username did use in that chat room?

[Serendipitous1]

Hey NeonButt: I have an "urgent spirit communication" for you. But I figure you already got it...psychically. . . . :biggrin:

[Cloudbuster]

S1 what has gotton into you??

[J. J. in Phila]

I just sent FF a private message to which I hope he/she responds, favorably.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
S1 what has gotton into you?? Lunacy I suppose, with a capital "L". I will now leave this thread...to other lunatics. Carry on. May the "force" be with you, and all of that.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Firefly:



So far, psychics have been a failure. You'll forgive my skepticism, but I like results.
From what I understand...so far...EVERYTHING has been a failure. The disappearence has not been solved. Be it Ray getting tired of life and deciding to put Thoreau's "Walden" to a test 21st Century style, or some sort of kill crazy gang of wacked out psychos...no one has proven anything. Correct me if I'm wrong. But that's the impression I was under. The police..the border patrol...DEA..FBI...CIA...Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones from "Men In Black"...so far none of them have solved the disappearance of Ray. Am I correct? Where are their results? So...I may be showing up as some unknown who claims to be the psychic equivalent of Inspector Clouseau...but right now Inspector Clouseau is batting just as well as all the other "legit" avenues.


Also note that most of the "new" evidence give by psychics in this case isn't new. What was new wasn't accurate.

Didn't say it was new. It's new to ME. May be old hat to you but I'm just coming in the door of a party you guys have been at for a long time. You know the players around the room...you know the layout...you know the bathroom is. I don't. I got invited to the party. By Cloud of a certainty...and maybe by someone or Something else.

As for the accuracy...I wouldn't know. But then again, I'm not sure that anyone does. Ray's family might know if some things I say of a personal nature are true. If its Ray's spirit trying to get a message back, then he'd be wise to come up with some examples that resonate with his kinfolk.



There can be postdiction, not prediction.

There can be both. Some very famous historical examples of both exist. Convincing people that prediction occurs is difficult though. It messes with some people's world view. We can agree to disagree on that. In my belief system and from my experience, prediction is quite common.


Note that I don't do that (except for joking references I've posted, which would be clear the next day). :) I generally use published sources, and occasionally I get do talk to people in the area. Psychics can do the same thing.



Oh sure. But that would mean talking with a bunch of Yankees. I'm from the South. :D
There are a thousand things that *could* have happened today. In some other realities, maybe all of them did. Maybe every scenario gets worked out in some other realm. But we live in this one.
I haven't researched this.


You will find two scenarios, both plausible and both contradictory, on this site, though may have to go back. One is the "walkaway scenario" and one is "murder scenario." You are free to read both. Right now, I think that there is a 58% chance that RFG was not murdered and a 57% chance that RFG did not walk away.

Cool...that's a 115% chance when you take both of those factors into consideration. I'd call that a lead pipe cinch!

All joking aside...and working at this from a purely non-psychic analytical point...the walk a way scenario...although it can't be dismissed...would seem to lose credibility every year. This is a post 911 computerized society. I can't buy a cup of coffee without showing my ID. To expect Ray to have travelled around the country or around the world on a phony ID stretches the bounds of credulity...In my opinion.
As stated before...I think the murder option is the most credible explanation of his disappearance. Absent any consideration of dubious psychic sources, we are still left with a man who has completely disappeared from society without a trace. This isn't 1840 when you could pick up your horse in Tennessee and move to Texas without anyone noticing.

But...and here's my point again...So-called legitimate avenues of investigation aren't yielding results either. Listening to wacked-out theories from wack jobs like me isn't inappropriate right now. When traditional medicine fails you, get the witch doctor. What have you got to
lose? If nothing else, a new scenario might pop out of a psychic that leads someone to look in the right place. Or a FLIR helicopter flying over the land. Or some Bigfoot hunters out digging in the ground. Or some granddad out fishing with his grandson. Any of these people has just as much possibility of generating a new lead.
[/*]

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I just sent FF a private message to which I hope he/she responds, favorably. [/*]

Thanks for having me go look for the private messages. I had a whole slew of them and didn't know it. :D

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
S1 what has gotton into you?? [/*]

You know...if this is gonna cause trouble with your friends here...I can go. I came to post here because I got the thing about Sparks right and because I'd had some imagery coming thru on another murder case that didn't match it.

But Ray's dead, and the people posting in this thread have no more of a clue about Ray than the man in the moon. I'm not doing any good here, and I just seem to be upsetting some folks.

Nice chatting with you guys and all that.

[J. J. in Phila]

Wrong, there is a difference between something failing and something not being checked.

Well, it might be "new" to you, but giving the license plate on the Mini isn't exactly helpful.

I see your math skills are worse than S1 (and mine). :) What are chances that RFG was not eaten by the Loch Ness Monster? 100%. What are odds that RFG not kidnapped by fairies? 100% That doesn't mean that there is 200% of either one happening. :rolleyes:

Now, I've suggested something via PM; are you willing? If the answer is no, that's fine, but I'm going give you zero precent credibility if not.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Firefly


You know...if this is gonna cause trouble with your friends here...I can go. I came to post here because I got the thing about Sparks right and because I'd had some imagery coming thru on another murder case that didn't match it.

But Ray's dead, and the people posting in this thread have no more of a clue about Ray than the man in the moon. I'm not doing any good here, and I just seem to be upsetting some folks. [/*]
PLEASE DON"T leave!!!! Your not causing a problem. If someone isn't interested in the title of the thread then they have a choice to go to another thread so please don't leave!!!!

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila

Now, I've suggested something via PM; are you willing? If the answer is no, that's fine, but I'm going give you zero precent credibility if not. [/*]

There's nothing in my PM box that looks like a suggested test. Just you saying something that has a 1 in a 1000 chance. But no description of what that 1 in a 1000 test is...

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Wrong, there is a difference between something failing and something not being checked.

Well, it might be "new" to you, but giving the license plate on the Mini isn't exactly helpful.

I see your math skills are worse than S1 (and mine). :) What are chances that RFG was not eaten by the Loch Ness Monster? 100%. What are odds that RFG not kidnapped by fairies? 100% That doesn't mean that there is 200% of either one happening. :rolleyes:

Now, I've suggested something via PM; are you willing? If the answer is no, that's fine, but I'm going give you zero precent credibility if not. [/*]
JJ first S1 and now you??? No one on this thread has had to prove their self. Why ? why are you guys being rude? Your math is your own it's your own style just as FF has his or her own style. Geez FF just ignore it, in my eyes I know better about you because there is NOWAY you could have came up with that name and that's a math fact JJ.:lol:

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

PLEASE DON"T leave!!!! Your not causing a problem. If someone isn't interested in the title of the thread then they have a choice to go to another thread so please don't leave!!!! [/*]

Just talk with me in the other forum. These experts here have already figured out everything with their numbers and probability. They'll already know where Ray is apparently. Unless there is some family member who wants to talk about it...I've said all I need to. I'm not trying to be ugly...but I got a whole other board of people who need help.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Firefly


There's nothing in my PM box that looks like a suggested test. Just you saying something that has a 1 in a 1000 chance. But no description of what that 1 in a 1000 test is... [/*]

I'll post a description if you'd like?

Now, I am skeptical, but I'll give you a chance. Do you wish me to post my question?

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Firefly


Just talk with me in the other forum. These experts here have already figured out everything with their numbers and probability. They'll already know where Ray is apparently. Unless there is some family member who wants to talk about it...I've said all I need to. I'm not trying to be ugly...but I got a whole other board of people who need help. [/*]

FF I know you are needed and the other board does appreciate you. Not everyone on here is rude. I do hope you reconsider!!! If you don't I understand why. I will come back to the other room. Im still blown away !!!!!!!!!!!:rose:

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I'll post a description if you'd like?

Now, I am skeptical, but I'll give you a chance. Do you wish me to post my question? [/*]

Thank you for "giving me a chance".

Keep your skepticism. It's all you've got apparently.

Post your question now.

Edited: Actually...forget it. If I played your game, you'd deny I got it correct. Or if I got it correct, you'd demand another test.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster

Not everyone on here is rude. [/*]

No they aren't. But the ones who are more than make for the ones who aren't.

This violated a personal rule anyway. Now I remember why I said I'd only do this kind of thing if a family member asked me. Cause a family member is the only person who actually KNOWS the victim and met and lived with them.

[Cloudbuster]

I understand what your saying FF and I do hope you stay!!! If you don't I also understand why. I believe you was sent here for a reason. The views when I posted about you was 13,761 (the math ) lol and they are 14,367 or more now. I think more was reading than you know. :rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Firefly


Thank you for "giving me a chance".

Keep your skepticism. It's all you've got apparently.

Post your question now. [/*]

:lol:

I think you've just answered my question.

Here was the question I going to ask. I'm thinking a number, the first 3 numbers of an SSN. Within 25 numbers, in either direction, what is that number? There is roughly a 1 in 20 chance of getting that randomly.

I'll even give you 48 hours, though you shouldn't need it.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I understand what your saying FF and I do hope you stay!!! If you don't I also understand why. I believe you was sent here for a reason. The views when I posted about you was 13,761 (the math ) lol and they are 14,367 or more now. I think more was reading than you know. :rose: [/*]

If I was getting good info, a family member would have stepped up by now. None has. I'm outta here.

Thank you for your kindness Cloud.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by Firefly


If I was getting good info, a family member would have stepped up by now. None has. I'm outta here.

Thank you for your kindness Cloud. [/*]

THANK YOU FF!!!!!!!!!!! The family might not be currently reading.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


:lol:

I think you've just answered my question.

Here was the question I going to ask. I'm thinking a number, the first 3 numbers of an SSN. Within 25 numbers, in either direction, what is that number? There is roughly a 1 in 20 chance of getting that randomly.

I'll even give you 48 hours, though you shouldn't need it. [/*]

Hold on a minute. How am I suppose to know that the number you picked is the number you tell me after I make my guess? You sending this info or posting it somewhere?

Edited: I'll be more blunt. I don't trust you to tell the truth if I get it right.

[Cloudbuster]

Ya JJ how do you expect to verify your picked number?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Firefly


Hold on a minute. How am I suppose to know that the number you picked is the number you tell me after I make my guess? You sending this info or posting it somewhere?

Edited: I'll be more blunt. I don't trust you to tell the truth if I get it right. [/*]

I'll be happy to PM it to S1 or SJ, if SJ is willing. There May be another way as well, but you'll have to guess, er, become psychically aware of that, until I give you the answer.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Ya JJ how do you expect to verify your picked number? [/*]

You, I won't tell at this point. ;)

You, actually might have a better chance at it. :)

[Cloudbuster]

JJ pm it to SJ if she is willing.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


You, I won't tell at this point. ;)

You, actually might have a better chance at it. :) [/*]
110

[Cloudbuster]

hmmm 205 roflmao

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I'll be happy to PM it to S1 or SJ, if SJ is willing. There May be another way as well, but you'll have to guess, er, become psychically aware of that, until I give you the answer. [/*]

I don't know any of these people.

I don't have to do anything.

Prove to me why its worth my time to mess around with this.

Good evening to you. I shan't be back.

[Cloudbuster]

Good evening FF and Im sorry for the rudness presented tonight!!! I will visit you because I believe in you!!!! I know you don't have to prove anything and your right !!!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ pm it to SJ if she is willing. [/*]

I just PMed her to check.

I though the firefly might just fly away at the suggestion. He doesn't have to "prove" anything, only to convince me of the likelihood that he is accurate.

BTW, if she agrees, I'll still do it.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ no psychic is 100 percent accurate and he told you that . What you and S1 have done is be rude to someone I consider a friend in my eyes. With a gift you are not capable of believing totally in. He was giving of himself and his time. None of this means anything to him. Why would you ask him to prove something?

And S1 calling him a name? I would NEVER do that to anyone that you 2 have invited unto this board. I guess you and S1 will solve this?:no:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ no psychic is 100 percent accurate and he told you that . What you and S1 have done is be rude to someone I consider a friend in my eyes. With a gift you are not capable of believing totally in. He was giving of himself and his time. None of this means anything to him. Why would you ask him to prove something?


No, I'm generally skeptical, which is why I have two contradictory theories explaining the same thing. If it is a gift (and I think the gift is possible), take off the bow.

Now, that said, I think you might be more psychic than the gadfly Firefly. That's one of the reasons I read your posts, because I've seen some evidence. :)

You've had me chocking on my mouse a few times. ;)

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by tld
has anyone thought about gang related murder... alot of new gangs in the area trying to one up each other [/*]
Hello tld how you been?
I heard there was gangs in Williamsport?

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


No, I'm generally skeptical, which is why I have two contradictory theories explaining the same thing. If it is a gift (and I think the gift is possible), take off the bow.

Now, that said, I think you might be more psychic than the gadfly Firefly. That's one of the reasons I read your posts, because I've seen some evidence. :)

You've had me chocking on my mouse a few times. ;) [/*]
JJ Im not a psychic though. I just get strange experiences that I can't even begin to explain because I don't even understand them. I just go with it and at some point it makes sense to me but not in the beginning of it that's where Im dunce. This case was different, so many syncroncities. This case should come with a warning sign "preceed with caution." I just seen FF post about Ray liking weird music. Silly of me but I always thought he liked Mozart or Beetoven.

[Politigal]

Why has the CDT removed the recent articles about the case??

[Politigal]

and, do you think Kroll Ontrack will be able to retrieve any data from the hard drive?

http://www.krollontrack.com/computerforensics/

[J. J. in Phila]

Why don't you post these questions under odds and ends in the future?

Originally posted by Politigal
Why has the CDT removed the recent articles about the case?? [/*]

P'gal, the paper does not keep the articles easily accessible for ever. Their archive is still up:

http://www.centredaily.com/138/

As to Kroll, maybe. A few of the private places I looked at several years considered it a great noteworthy success if data could be recovered from a drive that had been in the water for three days.

Even a partial success could provide useful data:

1. It could show if this really is RFG's hard drive.

2. It could show if the hard drive was erased prior to being tossed.

3. It could show the last time the hard drive was accessed.

All those questions add detail to what happened. For example (and this is not a prediction), if the drive was accessed and erased on 4/14/05, the odds on murder take a nosedive.

If the drive was accessed in May 2005, the odds on walkaway nosedive.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Firefly


You know...if this is gonna cause trouble with your friends here...I can go. I came to post here because I got the thing about Sparks right and because I'd had some imagery coming thru on another murder case that didn't match it.

But Ray's dead, and the people posting in this thread have no more of a clue about Ray than the man in the moon. I'm not doing any good here, and I just seem to be upsetting some folks.

Nice chatting with you guys and all that. [/*]

Firefly, you don't have to leave this thread. They set it up for just this reason. No one wanted to hear Cloudbuster and LW when they were discussing things and usually only those who are interested go there. What S1 is doing to you is wrong. I think he has a major problem or maybe it scares him. Maybe he doesn't want to hear something that could very well be true.

I am not psychic, but I certainly believe in them. Sometimes odd things happen in my home so I won't run you off. I love to hear about it.

Just ignore the ones who are skeptic and stay!
And you do have a very good sense of humor. Something long needed on here!
sj

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Serendipitous1
Lunacy I suppose, with a capital "L". I will now leave this thread...to other lunatics. Carry on. May the "force" be with you, and all of that. [/*]

S1 I am surprised at you. I have never seen you try to run someone off before. Why would you do that?

Others are on here with "visions" and "sightings" or odd things that have happened and this thread was set up for just that reason. A place to put what they have to others who want to hear it.

Although I am not psychic I do believe in what they have to say. I want to know what Firefly has to say. I want any type of knowledge to be brought to the forum.

Now be the grand fellow I think you are and settle down.

[ladyheartfixer]

yes, please stay Firefly. Several of the things you have said make sense and unfortunately some of the members of this forum have a superiority complex compared to us poor schmucks....lol...stay please...;)

[J. J. in Phila]

SJ agreed and set the clock from 1:00 PM, Eastern Time.

I'll repeat the question:

Here was the question I going to ask. I'm thinking a number, the first 3 numbers of an SSN. Within 25 numbers, in either direction, what is that number? There is roughly a 1 in 20 chance of getting that randomly.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I'll be happy to PM it to S1 or SJ, if SJ is willing. There May be another way as well, but you'll have to guess, er, become psychically aware of that, until I give you the answer. [/*]

I have given my okay to hold the number and I have received it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks



Considering there appears to be no record of the last time the laptop was seen in RG's possession, it is doubtful the odds of murder can realistically be reduced if it was determined the drive was 'erased on 4/14'.


It is fairly simple. In all probability, the laptop was in the house on 4/14, and there would be no reason for a killer to erase it prior to "killing," even if he got his hand on it somehow, especially if it was erased, not accessed.



Nor do I see the 'drive being accessed in May, 2005, causing a nosedive in 'odds' of walkaway', considering you have continually pushed the 'notion' of RG 'out there driving about somewhere in a newly purchased vehicle', plus your speculation regarding the possibility of a 'friend' holding the laptop. In so far as the 'accessories' having been left behind, anyone with a 'like' county computer would likely have those same accessories, thus the ability to access, in addition to the fact that accessories can be purchased.


First, as noted, I have not "pushed" anything.

If RFG did walkaway it is gigantically unlikely that he'd successfully leave Lewisburg then show up a month later to toss the laptop.

If there was a buddy who didn't know what happened to RFG, he might grab the laptop and look, in April, for a clue, like a calendar or a note. If a helper, why go on to the computer after RFG is gone, why wouldn't RFG destroy it on the way out?

I don't know what will be recovered, if anything, but just determining when things were done could give us some very good clues.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


Unless you know for a fact the laptop was in the house, and not in his car, or in the office, it simply is not that 'simple'. Saying the 'odds' say it was in the house does not make it a proven fact.


We are dealing with likelihoods, not absolutes.


If walkaway, there is no reason whatsoever why he couldn't drive back to Lewisburg a month later and walk down into the park.


Yes, if he were very stupid, and from everything we've heard about RFG, he wasn't stupid. If, RFG successfully left the area (he certainly wasn't walking around Lewisburg for a few months), he'd have to come back into the area.

As for risk, the risk of being seen. There were two places where RFG would be very recognizable in the summer of 2005, Centre County and Lewisburg. If he left voluntarily, and doesn't want to be recognized, those two places are NOT the place to do it.

Last year, I went back to the rough area where I grew up, about an hour east of Pittsburgh. I ran into people I knew who recognized me. I hadn't been there since 1992. If I didn't want to be recognized, I wouldn't go there.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by logicworks


I don't think we are dealing with either likelilhoods or absolutes considering there are no facts that back either up in any way.



At best, you get the term "beyond a reasonable doubt," in criminal cases. No, that isn't "proof." In civil cases you might get "more likely than not" or a "preponderance of the evidence."


As far as risk, IF RG didn't put the laptop or hard drive there on April 15th and someone else did so at a later date, why IF, as you say, NO one is going to take that risk, weren't they seen doing so?



You've made a wrong assumption, again. You've assumed that no one saw the person who tossed the drive and laptop. That is different that no one saw the person tossing the drive and laptop. Some may have seen the person in Lewisburg, and if it was RFG on 4/15 (or the MW or the "construction worker"), they did see the person.

RFG, if he returned, faced a special problem because, even if he's just standing on a street corner, he is likely to be recognized.

[puzzled]

Geez I go away for two days and JJ and S1 chase Firefly away! JJ screw you and your stupid percentages! I am so sick of hearing about your BS walk away theories! You think you are right about everything and that everyone has to PROVE everything to you! You should have stayed the hell off of this thread if you don't like what is being said! Firefly is EXACTLY right in what he said! So far the case has been crap so why the hell can't we listen to Firefly....we have nothing to lose! Your I am thinking of a number game is absolutely ludacris! For Christ's sake JJ give it a rest! You are so f'ing full of yourself! You need to take a vacation or leave the boards for awhile because you treat people like they could not possiblly be right while you cling to your same ole tired theories that never go anywhere and are totally ridiculous! S1 I am really surprised at you as well. Could it be that you and JJ won't be happy unless you solve the case and therefore do not want anyone elses opinion? Geez Firefly is like a breath of fresh air and you idiots have chased him off! I could just shoot fire out my nostrils I am so cheesed! If you don't believe then fine you and JJ have many other threads you can read and post on and you can just go around and around till hell freezes over! You guys deserve it! I am ashamed of both of you! Firefly I would give my right arm if you would stay! Tony is the only one from Ray's family that posts and he sort of goes in bits and spurts because he travels alot I think. So help me Jesus if you leave I will totally give up! Why do you think I have said from day one please stay? I know that we have some skeptical "no it all" Really don't though.....currently behaving like a....holes on board!hammer

[J. J. in Phila]

Hey, Puzzled, I'm very skeptical (not to mention curmudgeonly). I am, however, not willing to dismiss it out of hand, and give the a chance; I'm skeptical, but I'm willing to be convinced. Don't blame me if Firefly chooses not to take that chance.

Now, I use to completely dismiss CB, until some of the stuff she posted started jibing with some unpublished things.

[puzzled]

CB could you please send me a pm with info on how to connect with Firefly. I am not going to sit here and waste my time listening to the same ole crap for another 3 years!:mad:

[puzzled]

Logicworks I could not agree with you more! You said it very well! So we have this new person who is invited to the board and is trying to help. This person has a gift which some believe in and some do not. We have not had a breath of fresh air in this case in eons! We have muddled over the same ole theories over and over again until I am ready to just die! Finally we get someone ( Firefly) who can give us clues and insight and we can maybe put the pieces together and start to move forward. This has been very exciting to me....the answer to my prayers as it were. But then we have JJ and S1 putting this person through bloody hell! WHY? JJ and his stinkin percentages and guess my number hogwash! Guess what JJ you have not PROVEN anything to us in the last 3.4 years...ANYTHING! I think you need to open your mind and close your mouth for awhile! S1 why do you basically insult believers by referring to us as lunatics? If your child were missing for 3 years would you not want the help of anyone and everyone who could help in anyway? Why put the new person through the third degree because of your own biases? Do not read this thread if your mind is so closed that you have to drive someone out who is going out of there way to try and help. I was critical of CB for awhile but I have also said that she could be right about many of the things that she said. JJ do you want to be right so badly that it is more important to you that you are right than it is to solve this case? Just a sidenote...my exhusband has not taken my advice ever since I left him. He is paying the ultimate price. He will never be the same again. Two open heart surgeries, massive stroke, now kidney failure and dialysis. He has aged 50 years in the last 3. His quality of life is REALLY bad. He has been the hospital for weeks once again. He is pitiful and a mere shell of the man he used to be. I tried to tell him you have to take your BP medication, you can not party all the time and not rest your body. You can't put your body through all of this. I am not Einstein but some things just make sense. Firefly makes tremendous sense and if he does not come back and if the bullys don't leave him alone I will have a freaking fit like nothing you have even seen! Don't make me come to Philly JJ because I will!:D

[J. J. in Phila]

Puzzled, I didn't dismiss it out of hand, but I am skeptical. Now, it won't take a lot of convincing, but I'll need some.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ nobody said you had to believe in FF. Firefly don't care if ya believe in him or not. LW is absolutly right and said it exactly the way it is!!! Puzzled you have a PM.

FF has inspired me to take a new fresh look on some things and I think I might have found something. I spoke with him recently and he or she helped me to see some things differently. Im not going to put up his work because I have no permission to do so. What he did say was very interesting and I hope he comes back and shares it. If he chooses not to I can see why. He felt he broke a rule because of the family not being here. He stressed that if anyone in the family is interested he would be. He is not asking that everyone believe in him and he is aware that their is going to be scepticism. At any rate I hope he comes back!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ nobody said you had to believe in FF. Firefly don't care if ya believe in him or not. LW is absolutly right and said it exactly the way it is!!! Puzzled you have a PM.


I'm willing to give psychics a chance, but I'm generally skeptical. This was a way to help dispel my skepticism.

Now, if he wants to, he still has time and I'll be even more generous and give him two chances.

The was no trickery in the question and I sent SJ the number; I will reveal it (and more) after the deadline expires.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ lol no one gotta take a challenge to be on here. We know you are a skeptic. Even without his ability. We can put that aside and you gotta admit he jumped right in and had alot of things and ways to look at the case. That's what we need. We are just a opinion board and we don't even know if anyone who counts with the investagation is even reading lol. Our board is limited to researching and yea even some personal travels to look at places. We hold no badges lol. We are not true investagators although it feels like it at times lol. Hint Hint there needs to be a new investagation of some kind. 177-

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ lol no one gotta take a challenge to be on here.


If he wants me consider him as a source, or too follow up on "psychic suggestions," he does.


We know you are a skeptic. Even without his ability. We can put that aside and you gotta admit he jumped right in and had alot of things and ways to look at the case.



Sure, and he could have made most of them by looking at scenario that I suggested more than 18 months ago.

The challenge is still open, until 1:00 PM tomorrow. I'll even give him two chances.

[Cinderella]

All very interesting. I would like to hear more from Logic, firefly and Cloudbuster.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by OOBrett


One question - how do you arrive at the roughly 1 in 20 chance of randomly guessing the correct number? [/*]

In theory, there could be 1000 possible numbers. I call correct any number within 25 of that number, a range of 50. 50 in 1000 or 1 in 20, substantially better than the PA Daily Number. :)

Actually, the odds are much less, since the number is the three digit number in a real Social Security Number, and not all potential three digits are assigned. Also I'm giving him two chances, one that he has PM'ed to CB and that I've asked CB to PM SJ.

[puzzled]

JJ you are absolutely ridiculous! Do you think you own these boards? Does anyone really care whether or not you believe in psychics? Firefly does not have to prove anything to you! You should stay off this thread! You are so full of yourself JJ. You need to set your huge ego aside and understand that we have a right to chat with FF and his/her ideas without your interference. Have you ever heard the old saying that if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem? You need to look at what FF says with a new perspective. Put aside your biases and let go of your stupid numbers BS! Can you say the words anal retentive? Can you not get it through your thick head that nobody has to convince you of anything? Nobody owes you anything! You need to go to another thread and stay off this unexplained phenomena thread. I would much rather read FF's posts than your same ole posts. :cuss: Leave FF alone.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled
JJ you are absolutely ridiculous! Do you think you own these boards? Does anyone really care whether or not you believe in psychics? Firefly does not have to prove anything to you! You should stay off this thread! You are so full of yourself JJ. You need to set your huge ego aside and understand that we have a right to chat with FF and his/her ideas without your interference. Have you ever heard the old saying that if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem? You need to look at what FF says with a new perspective. Put aside your biases and let go of your stupid numbers BS! Can you say the words anal retentive? Can you not get it through your thick head that nobody has to convince you of anything? Nobody owes you anything! You need to go to another thread and stay off this unexplained phenomena thread. I would much rather read FF's posts than your same ole posts. :cuss: Leave FF alone. [/*]

Since you like the unexplained phenomenon, I will attempt to, using my mystical ways, to divine that you, or someone close you has the first three digits of a Social Security number within 25 numbers of ...

... 289 (264-304).

Is my crystal ball working?

[J. J. in Phila]

Firefly didn't the number, though he did get closer than I expected. The number was 403.

I said that I wanted to perform a test. I was testing not only psychic ability but if Firefly was attempting to Google and then pass it off as some psychic activity.


Here was the question I going to ask. I'm thinking a number, the first 3 numbers of an SSN. Within 25 numbers, in either direction, what is that number? There is roughly a 1 in 20 chance of getting that randomly.

I'll even give you 48 hours, though you shouldn't need it.


Note that I did not say my SSN.

SSN's are given out by state, and if you got a card in PA, the first three numbers are between 159-211. All states are broken down here: http://www.socialsecurity.gov/employer/stateweb.htm

403 is one the three number combinations for KY, but not PA. As I said, not my SNN; my SSN and my parent's SNN's were all issued in PA. I've posted several times that I was born in PA, hoping that if Fly was Googling, he'd take the bait and come up with a number around 184, which would cover most of that range.

Conversely, I was hoping that he'd try to construct one from the numbers I used in my post (which does include 403). You will note that he used the numeral 7, which doesn't appear in my post.

He's not Googling in this case. :) I think I've used this to "psychically" discover the first three digits of several people's SSN.

[Cloudbuster]

JJ FF said 437 and your number was 403. I am amazed he got the 4 right where it goes and he did have the three just not in order. IMO he got 2 of your numbers. Spirit is not used for number guessing. If you ask spirit meaning God source you will get answers if spirit gives it. It something is meant to be meaning if God wants to use you as a open vessel for something then it happens. If you try on your own for the wrong reasons such as number guessing then it don't work. That self gratification. At any rate he did get 2 out of 3 right. So in my opinion only the 7 was wrong. He isn't going to do your tests and why should he? Putting psychic aside i still would love his theories because they got me thinking. I wish he would return. He is well known where I found him and has read many there and WAS accurate. I heard of one of the testimonys lastnight. He sought out alot and holds 20 years of experience. He is giving of himself. Also he told some of us what this case will end up being like and what's going to happen and what to look for. It's a shame he feels unwelcome here to share it with all tha's interested. :rolleyes:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ FF said 437 and your number was 403. I am amazed he got the 4 right where it goes and he did have the three just not in order. IMO he got 2 of your numbers.

So if I give seven dollars in change, you'll give me seven hundred dollar bills back, right?

The odds on him getting a correct answer were actually less, by more than half, than rolling double sixes in a game of Monopoly. Because some SNNs are not given out, there were about 750 numbers combination possible and 50 "correct" answers (actually 51). The odds are lower than 1 in 15 that he could get a "correct " answer.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by puzzled
JJ you are absolutely ridiculous! Do you think you own these boards? Does anyone really care whether or not you believe in psychics? Firefly does not have to prove anything to you! You should stay off this thread! You are so full of yourself JJ. You need to set your huge ego aside and understand that we have a right to chat with FF and his/her ideas without your interference. Have you ever heard the old saying that if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem? You need to look at what FF says with a new perspective. Put aside your biases and let go of your stupid numbers BS! Can you say the words anal retentive? Can you not get it through your thick head that nobody has to convince you of anything? Nobody owes you anything! You need to go to another thread and stay off this unexplained phenomena thread. I would much rather read FF's posts than your same ole posts. :cuss: Leave FF alone. [/*]

Puzzled, I thought you went overseas on vacation? Are you back already?

[Cinderella]

J. J., even though I tell you to get a life, you are still my buddy. You also are persistent. hammer :chicken:

[Cinderella]

I hope that firefly returns. There is a shed or warehouse that I would like to know about. Also some other questions. Maybe trying to piece this together will help. It can't hurt.

[Cloudbuster]

Cind I hope he returns. I find it interesting what is supposed to happen to a MW and the guy that was with her. :seeya:

[Cinderella]

Cloudbuster, please post what you heard about the man and the mystery woman or pm me if you feel that you can't post it here.

[Cloudbuster]

Well it would be in their interest ,Cind to come forward. Their outcome will be toast otherwise. So if they are reading by some weird chance then what they thought would be right and they only got one way to go and they don't have long. This is only vague version. I wish FF would come and tell it. One man and one MW, is who Im talking about.
;)

[Cinderella]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Well it would be in their interest ,Cind to come forward. Their outcome will be toast otherwise. So if they are reading by some weird chance then what they thought would be right and they only got one way to go and they don't have long. This is only vague version. I wish FF would come and tell it. One man and one MW, is who Im talking about.
;) [/*]

So they are going to get caught huh? Great.

[sherrijean981]

Or gone!

[Cloudbuster]

I think gone too.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
I think gone too. [/*]

Did Firefly ask about a blond woman? Was he referring to the LMW?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


Did Firefly ask about a blond woman? Was he referring to the LMW? [/*]

She supposedly had dark hair.

[sherrijean981]

Firefly here is the link to the pond photo.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Centre+Hall&state=PA&address=%5*376-379%5D+Blue+Ball+Rd&zipcode=16828&country=US&latitude=40.92605&longitude=-77.62495&geocode=STREET#a/maps/l::[376-379]+Blue+Ball+Rd:Centre+Hall:PA:16828:US:40.92605:-77.62495:street:/m:hyb:12:40.930898:-77.621606:0::/io:0:::::f:EN:M:/e

[Firefly]

In the future, JJ, if you want to test a psychic, use numbers from 1-9.

Your second number was 0. Zero is a null number. The "feeling" of zero is...nothing...which is exactly the same as the feeling you get when not receiving any information at all.

4 and 3 came thru pretty clear because they represent 4 of something and 3 of something...I chose 7 cause it's 4 plus 3... Because I didn't have a final number to put up. :D

And in spite of missing that...I still came within 9 numbers of meeting your challenge.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Firefly
In the future, JJ, if you want to test a psychic, use numbers from 1-9.

Your second number was 0. Zero is a null number. The "feeling" of zero is...nothing...which is exactly the same as the feeling you get when not receiving any information at all.

4 and 3 came thru pretty clear because they represent 4 of something and 3 of something...I chose 7 cause it's 4 plus 3... Because I didn't have a final number to put up. :D

And in spite of missing that...I still came within 9 numbers of meeting your challenge. [/*]

You came within 35 numbers of my answer, so I'm not impresses. I guess if RFG stayed in Room 100, you couldn't get that either.

You actually had about a 1 in 15 chance of getting it, which means I did slightly better predicting the Lotto numbers last week. :rolleyes:

[Cloudbuster]

Firefly I just got back from the bookstore. The book you told me to get just jumped out at me. I didn't go there to get that book and left the author and title name at home but weirdly I went to put one book on the shelf and the book you told me to get slid out of place then I noticed it was the same book you refered me to. Thank you for that one.:)

JJ please out of courtsy do not ruin things for us that do believe! FF is one that wouldn't tolerate you anyway. I have learned alot in a short time from Firefly and consider him a friend and have alot of respect for him, not to mention his humor!! Alot of people want him back and welcome him!!!:rose:

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
Firefly I just got back from the bookstore. The book you told me to get just jumped out at me. I didn't go there to get that book and left the author and title name at home but weirdly I went to put one book on the shelf and the book you told me to get slid out of place then I noticed it was the same book you refered me to. Thank you for that one.:)

JJ please out of courtsy do not ruin things for us that do believe! FF is one that wouldn't tolerate you anyway. I have learned alot in a short time from Firefly and consider him a friend and have alot of respect for him, not to mention his humor!! Alot of people want him back and welcome him!!!:rose: [/*]

I have no care if he posts or not. If he was psychic, he should have past that test. Sorry, but I use same standard with other posters (including myself).

[Cloudbuster]

JJ he pasted enough tests some you don't know about. No matter what I hope he gives his opinions just like we all do. We need a fresh looker. He has helped me alot already. You have the option to bypass this thread anyway. S1 was honorable and did that. There are alot of us that do want to hear it, and we outweigh those who don't. :D

[puzzled]

SJ last weekend we went out of town for a wedding! Back to our old church! It was so fun and beautiful! This saturday we leave for London! We will be gone 10 days! I am so excited! I need to start packing!
I found out today that one of my ex's kidneys is starting to improve! They have not began dialysis yet. However they did put a catheter in his chest last friday for the dialysis.
My day has been crazy. I am still in my jammies! YIKES! I just signed on and saw that FF is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you tell I am thrilled! Thank you Jesus!
JJ so help me if you even think about starting your crap again uh.......I will make you miserable. Not a threat ...just a promise! Just back off jack!
Firefly welcome back! I am speechless.....very rare for me....but very happy! This is the best news ever! :D

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster
JJ he pasted enough tests some you don't know about. No matter what I hope he gives his opinions just like we all do. We need a fresh looker. He has helped me alot already. You have the option to bypass this thread anyway. S1 was honorable and did that. There are alot of us that do want to hear it, and we outweigh those who don't. :D [/*]

I don't mind a "fresh look" but I do mind when I'm asked to track down based on obviously psychic speculation, a getting arguments when the source of that speculation fails a relatively easy test.

So don't ask any more. :punch:

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I have no care if he posts or not. If he was psychic, he should have past that test. Sorry, but I use same standard with other posters (including myself). [/*]

I'm perfectly content to not be a psychic here. :D
I apologize for my grandiose assumption of the mantel of "true psychic"...us posers are often guilty of that kind of thing.

Any problems with me posting rampant speculation based on no research, no understanding of the people involved, and without any evidence to back it up? :D

[Firefly]

Originally posted by puzzled
SJ last weekend we went out of town for a wedding! Back to our old church! It was so fun and beautiful! This saturday we leave for London! We will be gone 10 days! I am so excited! I need to start packing!
I found out today that one of my ex's kidneys is starting to improve! They have not began dialysis yet. However they did put a catheter in his chest last friday for the dialysis.
My day has been crazy. I am still in my jammies! YIKES! I just signed on and saw that FF is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you tell I am thrilled! Thank you Jesus!
JJ so help me if you even think about starting your crap again uh.......I will make you miserable. Not a threat ...just a promise! Just back off jack!
Firefly welcome back! I am speechless.....very rare for me....but very happy! This is the best news ever! :D [/*]

Whoa..chill out there. :D

Yeah...I had my temper tantrum. Now I'm back..for a bit anyway.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by logicworks



Anyone not interested in intuition, please pass on by.........


When I saw your reference in the search to blue ball rd......it reminded me to search under 'blue ball', a reminder that came to me this morning........and I found exactly what I sensed this morning.
Blue Ball is a PA town located in the 'heart' of Amish county. It is said to be the 'original Blue Ball'. The 'blue ball' connection may be symbolic of more than just a road leading off route 192. I think it is a symbol.

Blue Ball Road is close to the 'heart' in the field.
The woman on the back of the horse is dressed in black and white, which are the colors the Amish women dress in, but the woman on the horse is more mod than that, and yet looking a bit puritanical. I still find the look on her face not an easy one to interpret. Puritanical might do it.......

The phone call had to come in somewhere between Blue Ball Rd. and Rebersberg, which is precisely where the Amish accident occurred the day I went down to see what happened while I was enroute and on-site. Well......nothing came to me on-site other than a laughable Barney Fife poster in the restaurant at the SOS, but enroute, the Amish accident, which did involve a mother and baby going to the hospital, which happened, like the phone call, between Blue Ball Rd. and Rebersburg.

Just went back to my PA map to see what it looks like there, and there is the one word written there.....heart. ( always pays to refresh my own memory, lest I forget that I had found that there before). I think the Blue Ball is symbolic of the heart of something, just as I suspected when it came to me this morning to seach under heart, and blue ball.

I am finally satisfied with the interpretation of Blue Ball.......and of course, my interpretation may differ from what others 'see' or believe it to be. When I find the meaning of what I was looking for, there is another 'sense' that occurs. I don't know what it is, closest I can describe it is a 'peace in understanding', or maybe it is what is meant by the 'peace that passeth all understanding'.

I have thought of that darned blue ball a gazillion times, but never has it felt like I connected with the true meaning of it and it bugged me. I believe it is symbolic of something close to the heart, which is exactly what I prayed for in that very first prayer when I read our county DA was missing. I asked what was closest to his heart that day........I may have found exactly what it was and what it meant to him. The meaning of the horse even makes more sense now, and there may be an even deeper yet meaning to it in so far as location.

Going back to the horse photo to see exactly where that blue ball rests.......it is a big blue ball, dotting the 'i' in the word 'Being'.
JMO [/*]

Sherrijean posted that last night but my computer wouldn't load the picture. :( And I'm in the middle of a 102 degree fever and stuffy head cold...so I wasn't really able to focus on trying to fix the problem of looking at it.

How did Blue Ball become an important consideration for the case?

As an aside, while I was experiencing Nigh-Quil induced visions today before drifting off to sleep, I may have seen a picture of the house. Reddish brick type, or reddish wood sides...single story...with a rural road running about 100 feet in front of the house.

[Cinderella]

Firefly,

I am glad that you are back. Please try to overlook anyone that makes you feel that you may not belong here.

Does the word barebrick mean anything to you? Also has a swimming pool entered your mind at all? Could the mystery woman and man be mother and son? You saw something like a warehouse or shed, could you describe it? Do you see anything about notes or any types of notes? Also for the person who supposedly committed suicide, do you think that he did commit suicide? Do you feel that he is related to Ray's disappearance or not? The man that was involved in this, the one that met up with Ray, could you describe his personality? Why hasn't a photo or sketch of the mystery woman been released? Also the cellphone records, do they contain any clues? Sorry for all the questions, but I have so many.

Thank you for trying to help.

Just a note, one time, I went to have a woman that had a crystal ball do a reading. There were many family members that came also. When I had my reading done, I tried to look into her crystal ball, but I couldn't see anything. She had purple material surrounding it. After we left, we all laughed because she kinda told my mother and myself some of the same things. Well what she told us came true. It wasn't anything to laugh about though.

My husband had placed some money in the house and he died unexpectedly and I didn't know where the money was. This woman with the crystal ball had told me that it was close to the bathroom. Many years later, I had someone in my attic doing electrical work and when they had to remove some insulation they found the money above where the bathroom was located. So I do believe that some people have this gift. I am glad that you are using it to try to help others. I also realize that this isn't all that easy on the person who has this gift. I know that it takes a lot of energy out of the person.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Cinderella

Does the word barebrick mean anything to you?
No...although...it might relate to something about the scene of the murder. Like maybe one of the buildings was 'bare brick" colored

Also has a swimming pool entered your mind at all? Not exactly...but therein lies the problem with psychics. My background is with rural living. So if the impression comes thru of a something that 1. is man made, and 2. holds or contains water...then the first thing I think of is a lake or pond, because I've actually helped people build those types of things. You've already named two other structures that could fit the bill of both man made and containing water...swimming pools and quarries.

Could the mystery woman and man be mother and son? That's not my impression. The mystery woman and man feel more like lovers...husband and wife or boyfriend/girlfriend.

You saw something like a warehouse or shed, could you describe it? It's metal...with a concrete floor. The roof to it is not very high. Metal beams of some sort are set about a foot and half or two feet above an average sized man's head.

Do you see anything about notes or any types of notes?
Not specifically. I do think that some type of information that Ray was gathering was of importance to people "behind the scenes" but were very much less important to the people who were carrying out the actual abduction.

Also for the person who supposedly committed suicide, do you think that he did commit suicide?
I'd want to know more about the manner of how he committed suicide before I made that call. Tenatively, I'd say that it's possible he did not.

Do you feel that he is related to Ray's disappearance or not? Let me think on that one awhile.

The man that was involved in this, the one that met up with Ray, could you describe his personality?
He's a glad hander. Very slick guy. Laughes easily. Normally dresses nicely, but not on this day. Makes friends easily. Can be very determined and is use to getting his way. Can be ruthless in social, personal and business matters. He's the type of guy who would be laughing with friends at a restaurant until the waiter brought the wrong item. He'd quietly excuse himself, go find the waiter, and then quietly ream him up one side and down the other...smiling all the while. Ray represented a stumbling block to this person in some way. He felt Ray, by his presence, was holding him back in some fashion.

Why hasn't a photo or sketch of the mystery woman been released?
I think there are people who don't want that description given out.

Also the cellphone records, do they contain any clues?
Nothing that would be definitive. There would be hints but nothing that would be conclusive.

I know that it takes a lot of energy out of the person.
A whole lot. :)

[/*]

[Cinderella]

Firefly,

You said about a shed or warehouse.

It's metal...with a concrete floor. The roof to it is not very high. Metal beams of some sort are set about a foot and half or two feet above an average sized man's head.

I saw something. Could you explain a little more. What color is it?


About the man involved directly is he someone that was involved in others deaths, maybe an ex-wife,
but fools people with his act of being so nice. I can't for certain prove anything, but am suspicious of involvement in ex-wife's death.

Could you also pm me the link to the site that you are on?

[Cinderella]

firefly,

Sorry forgot to add that I think this person was asked for an alibi already and had a person lie for him. What impression do you pick up on this?

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks


The brick house doesn't ring a bell with me, but may with someone else on here who has been out on road trips.
JMO

[/*]

There is a red brick single story building beside the warehouse in Milton that some of us were talking about previously. I thought it at first was someone's home but it might have been an office or storage area.

Old RT 15. I'm sorry but I am having a brain drain and can't remember the name of the company there or the name of the church. The little red house is behind the church but after you turn onto the property where the house is, the warehouse is behind it.

There are railroad tracks on down the road past the church and the little red house. I am not good with "feet" so not sure if it is about 100' or not.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by sherrijean981


There is a red brick single story building beside the warehouse in Milton that some of us were talking about previously. I thought it at first was someone's home but it might have been an office or storage area.

Old RT 15. I'm sorry but I am having a brain drain and can't remember the name of the company there or the name of the church. The little red house is behind the church but after you turn onto the property where the house is, the warehouse is behind it.

There are railroad tracks on down the road past the church and the little red house. I am not good with "feet" so not sure if it is about 100' or not. [/*]

I think the building I saw was a wooden building that was brick colored. Made with wide beams of wood on the outside. From the public road, trees would be visible to the right side of this home with an open field to the left side.

[Firefly]

Regarding my impressions about people who MIGHT have been involved in Ray's disappearence...my made up theory in other words...here is an idea.

The people who were behind the scene's of Ray's disappearance are still in the background. They have done relatively well after the disappearance of Ray from the scene. They are concerned about their associates in the disappearance, because they have been unable (and unwilling) to honor some commitments made to the people who carried out the actual abduction. They are correct to be concerned. The people who were responsible are very much a threat to the freedom and social place of those behind the scenes.

Of the people who carried out the actual abduction, the woman is now the most important player. For whatever reason, the male is not as important. This could be because the male is no longer alive, or it might be that the male has made up his mind and is "unchanging" in regard to this matter. The woman however is experiencing doubts and regrets about the disappearance and her role in it. She is also worried and upset about being a link between the disappearance and those behind the scenes. She is correct to be worried. The people behind the scenes are beginning to worry about "loose ends", and this woman has seen with her own eyes the cold indifferent change in mood that has taken place among those behind the scenes.

Whoever moves first now is going to emerge with the benefits. For the woman involved, now would be the time to consider turning herself over to the FBI, explaining her limited role in the abduction, and naming the persons behind the scenes. For serious consideration of her confession, she should approach the FBI and not local authorities.
If she should not do this, then a darker chapter may be written for her, and her significant other...if he still lives...by the people behind the scenes within the next 9 months.

Additionally, whatever physical remains of Ray that still exist are now exposed even though at the bottom of a body of water. Divers should be able to find fragments of rib cage, skull, thigh bones, and other parts without digging...albeit these parts are scattered slightly.

[Cinderella]

I don't know what even to say. Other than thanks firefly for letting us in on what you believe to be the truth. All I can say is thank God, it isn't me. Your message sent chills through me. I am glad that you told it the way that you see it and didn't sugar coat it as one life is too many to take.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
I don't know what even to say. Other than thanks firefly for letting us in on what you believe to be the truth. All I can say is thank God, it isn't me. Your message sent chills through me. I am glad that you told it the way that you see it and didn't sugar coat it as one life is too many to take. [/*]

I sent chills up my spine, even the first time I saw some of his "sightings/theories".

Ciindi, did you see the link LW put on about the silo's? What was the height of the one we saw across the road from BJL's property? Also the building across the driveway? Is that what you were referring to in your previous post?

I was wondering what BJL's home looked like before it burnt down? If looking at his property there were trees to the right of it, but not sure how many feet from the road, and it is on a country road.

[Cinderella]

SJ, This is what has come to my mind. The shed or warehouse is not that high. Almost like firefly described.

I wasn't thinking of the corn crib. I was thinking about the building or the shed.
The place definitely came to my mind. You should show her some of your pictures. The farmland and all. I don't know what the house had originally looked like.

I am definitely thinking of JL and daughter-in-law. I still wonder what is in the water behind his house. Someone could have been fishing in a small boat behind the house or gone by and seen something in the water, but not known what it was. That way an eye could be kept on it. Even the laptop could have been in that water.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Cinderella
SJ, This is what has come to my mind. The shed or warehouse is not that high. Almost like firefly described.

I wasn't thinking of the corn crib. I was thinking about the building or the shed.
The place definitely came to my mind. You should show her some of your pictures. The farmland and all. I don't know what the house had originally looked like.

I am definitely thinking of JL and daughter-in-law. I still wonder what is in the water behind his house. Someone could have been fishing in a small boat behind the house or gone by and seen something in the water, but not known what it was. That way an eye could be kept on it. Even the laptop could have been in that water. [/*]

Are you talking on Moody Lane/Rd near the dam? Does his house overlook that end of the dam? I was never down to see how the house sat and if he had a good view of it from his home.
Was the dam empty or low at his end at the time of RG's disappearance? Isn't there a public access to the water?

Are there any silo's on any of JL's properties that look like the ones in the link LW put up.

I can't remember every thing we saw when we were in that area. I know you said JL had a farm somewhere but we didn't go to it.

[Cinderella]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sherrijean981


Are you talking on Moody Lane/Rd near the dam? Does his house overlook that end of the dam? I was never down to see how the house sat and if he had a good view of it from his home.
------------------------
Answer

It is Dowdy Hole Road. South of the Dam. The water flows behinds the J.L. house. It would not be a deep as the dam is. I don't know how deep. I am sure that a small fishing boat could access that area.

-------------------------

Was the dam empty or low at his end at the time of RG's disappearance? Isn't there a public access to the water?

Answer

I think that there is a dock North of the area.

--------------------------
Are there any silo's on any of JL's properties that look like the ones in the link LW put up.
---------------------------
Answer

Not that I am aware of.
_________________

ANSWER

BJL's property was on one of the farms.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by logicworks



Anyone not interested in intuition, please pass on by.........


When I saw your reference in the search to blue ball rd......it reminded me to search under 'blue ball', a reminder that came to me this morning........and I found exactly what I sensed this morning.
JMO [/*]


LW I was looking for a piece of property that follows Rt 642 out of Milton, turn left at Rt 54. I had talked about it previously looking like the place CB (Carla Baron) had talked about. Going over railroad tracks, turning into the lane and a long warehouse type place there. Two lakes.

I went back again tonight to see if any silo type buildings were there. That place is now a large business. Strawberry Ridge Rd is still there in front of the lakes (Weller Lake) which now look bigger and it looks like 2 large circles which could be silo's with steam coming out of them. The house or building I saw before is no longer there. Also another business is behind that business. It has really grown in the last 2 years I have been on here.

I followed Rt 54 north to see where it ended up and guess what I found? Another Blue Ball Rd!! Now isn't that strange?

I can't put a link up because I was following roads to get there and the link I had was for Lewisburg. If you follow Rt 642 out of Milton- east I think, it comes to the intersection of Rt 54, turn left and go north a short distance to the Weller Lakes and Strawberry Ridge Rd you will see the business.

I was wondering if the original business was 17 miles from Milton.

I just thought you might find that all interesting.

[sherrijean981]

Originally posted by Firefly


I think the building I saw was a wooden building that was brick colored. Made with wide beams of wood on the outside. From the public road, trees would be visible to the right side of this home with an open field to the left side. [/*]

I am putting a link up to the quarry just east of Aaronsburg, on the right had side of the road. There is 2 areas that look like water. There is also what looks like a pier over the one road there, maybe a large silo type building.

There are also a couple smaller dirt? roads that look like they could have access to any part of the quarry, one directly to the largest holding pond.

It is not off Quarry Rd, which runs beside JB's property. In fact, there is no name to the road into the quarry. My friend lives just east of the quarry on the left side and said you can see the quarry from Rt 45. There is a small restaurant and then a couple mobile homes before the lane to the quarry.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Aaronsburg&state=PA#a/maps/l:::Aaronsburg:PA::US:40.8997:-77.453598:city:Centre+County/m:hyb:13:40.899366:-77.441936:0::/io:0:::::f:EN:M:/e

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Firefly
[/*]
Oh...If a war starts overseas though while you're gone, come home with some haste.

Puzzled...
If you are in Europe now, or are still going, you might want to monitor the situation between Georgia and Russia. Pay particular attention to whether the US gets involved militarily or if the Russians accuse the US of being involved.

The chances of this reverberating to Iran and Kosovo and becoming conflicts in these regions is also potential.

Still though, the biggest concern for your trip...I think...would be what a big conflict between the US, Russia and Georgia would do to the price of fuel...at least for the time you are there. (I don't think its going nuclear immediately...in other words :D) But you wouldn't want to get stuck in England if they decided they needed to ration jet fuel either. :D

The time to be concerned is if it looks like other countries (including the US) are getting involved in the fighting or if something fairly massive occurs. More likely than not this will dribble out to nothing.

[J. J. in Phila]

Firefly, I just read, prior to your last post, that the US has, and has had, military advisers in Georgia. You are not giving us the future here. Sorry.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
Firefly, I just read, prior to your last post, that the US has, and has had, military advisers in Georgia. You are not giving us the future here. Sorry. [/*]

Didn't claim I was. Just told Puzzled that she might want to be aware of this while traveling in Europe.

The US has had military advisers in Georgia for a long time. We have had military advisers in South Korea, Japan, and Colombia for even longer. They are used in Georgia mostly for training anti-terror units to fight against Muslim extremeists in neighboring provinces and countries (see Chechnia and Dagistan).

What is more important for the US and Russia, in terms of why we might fight them, has to do with the oil pipeline that comes out of Azerbaijan. We are talking billions of dollars for big US oil companies here. If Georgia falls to the Russians, our oil companies lose billions of dollars invested, and billions of dollars that would come out as profits.

:D Having said all this though....I think you'd have been hard pressed to find someone last week...when I posted that...who thought a war would flare up before the Olympics.

[Cinderella]

I am so glad that you are on firefly. So many questions.

[Cinderella]

I have pictures, I need to know how to get them to you, Firefly.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Firefly
:D Having said all this though....I think you'd have been hard pressed to find someone last week...when I posted that...who thought a war would flare up before the Olympics. [/*]

Actually, it has been a long term problem. It's a bit like saying that there will be trouble in the Middle East or a shooting in Philadelphia. :rolleyes:

Now, had you posted the number and type of jets shot down, or the time and location of the bombing, I'd be impressed.

[Cinderella]

J. J.,

You are a walking, doubting, Thomas. LOL

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Actually, it has been a long term problem. It's a bit like saying that there will be trouble in the Middle East or a shooting in Philadelphia. :rolleyes:

Now, had you posted the number and type of jets shot down, or the time and location of the bombing, I'd be impressed. [/*]

A long term problem that happened to come to a head during Puzzled's vacation....:D

"Now had you etc....I'd be impressed"
I doubt it. :D

[puzzled]

JJ would you please give it a rest. Are you jealous because so many posters are interested in FF's intuition? For God's sake JJ even animals can sense things! They often act strange before an earthquake, hurricane etc. I watched a show the other night that had a woman on who has two large dogs. She said her hubby comes home every night between 5 and 8. Ten minutes before he walks through the door the dogs go to the door and start sniffng for him. Okay so if dogs can sense things why can't you believe that us mere mortals can?
Firefly my husband will be paying attention to what is going on in the world. I will be busy shopping and seeing and doing everything I possibly can! This is strictly fun for us! We will be touring every other day. Don't get me wrong I am very interested in what is going on in the world. But this is a dream vacation for me so I hope I won't be distracted. Do you sense some sort of connection to world crisis and me? I am not being facetious.
I expect you guys to solve this case lock stock and barrel while I am gone. I leave tomorrow morning and arrive in London around 1 am sunday. Do not let JJ get under your skin while I am gone. I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend! :D

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Firefly


A long term problem that happened to come to a head during Puzzled's vacation....:D

"Now had you etc....I'd be impressed"
I doubt it. :D [/*]

Just more postdiction. I think some people may have psychic ability. I just have not seen you exhibit any as of yet.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by puzzled
...interested in FF's intuition? For God's sake JJ even animals can sense things!

Are you calling me an animal? :D


Do you sense some sort of connection to world crisis and me? I am not being facetious.

No. I think you should go. Just be aware that there may be a couple of other serious issues involving the US in the Middle East and with Russia that could cause some sudden changes. More likely than not you'll be okay. I tend to see things in terms of probability...and what I consider the most extreme possibility in regard to Georgia and Russia has only about a 25% chance of occurring. Just keep an eye on things. You ought to be okay. And have fun btw.
[/*]

[Firefly]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


Just more postdiction. I think some people may have psychic ability. I just have not seen you exhibit any as of yet. [/*]

And if I have my way...you never will.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Firefly


And if I have my way...you never will. [/*]

I am open to things; I actually think CB might be on to something. It has to be demonstrated however.

I will make one prediction, perhaps psychic. Tom Corbett will win the election by a larger margin that he did the last time.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


I am open to things; I actually think CB might be on to something. It has to be demonstrated however.

I will make one prediction, perhaps psychic. Tom Corbett will win the election by a larger margin that he did the last time. [/*]

JJ please be nice. As much as I hate to admit it JJ TC will win by a large margin and it's because people keep seeing his shiny blond hair and teeth on TV and in the media. :biggrin:

[J. J. in Phila]

Or he liked red cars.

[J. J. in Phila]

I see something ... someone departing... an allied force ... about a fortnight ... it's hazy.

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila
I see something ... someone departing... an allied force ... about a fortnight ... it's hazy. [/*]

JJ what does that mean? (about a fortnight)?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by Cloudbuster


JJ what does that mean? (about a fortnight)? [/*]

It means I was reading pigeon entrails, but got hungry and ate the pigeon.:biggrin:

[Cloudbuster]

Originally posted by J. J. in Phila


It means I was reading pigeon entrails, but got hungry and ate the pigeon.:biggrin: [/*]

Awe for some reason I thought you was refering to me lol.:confused:

[puzzled]

I'm Back! We had a blast! It is so good to be back home! I missed the boards and just about everyone on them! HA!
Lot's of things to do today. Must unpack and put away the bits and bobs! London was lovely!
Will be back on tonight!
JJ I would like to take you to the tower of London and......

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally posted by puzzled

JJ I would like to take you to the tower of London and...... [/*]

I wouldn't suggest it, as I'm well aware of the judicial application of pikes. ;)